The Rich Roll Podcast - Kamal Ravikant On Why Self-Love Is Everything

Episode Date: April 27, 2020

I've got nothing but love for stories of personal metamorphosis, perhaps the most predominant theme of this show. We call it the hero’s journey. Archetypal and totemic, it’s a most powerful narrative that unites, connecting with something indelible and universal within us all. Over the years, I’ve hosted many flavors of physical triumph. From Olympic medalists to arctic explorers, I celebrate the arc of the athletic warrior. But life’s greatest passage isn’t physical. It’s not free-soloing El Capitan, crossing Antarctica, or running ultramarathons in Patagonia. Our most challenging voyage is learning how to love ourselves. No one embodies this genus of the hero’s journey better than Kamal Ravikant. To be clear, Kamal has more than earned his spot as a respected adventurer living beyond convention. From modest beginnings, he’s trekked to one of the highest base camps in the Himalayas, earned his US Army Infantry patch, walked 550 miles across Spain, and meditated with Tibetan monks in the Dalai Lama’s monastery. Professionally, he’s done it all too, founding a company with the guy who wrote the first browser. From launching startups to managing venture capital funds, Kamal has spent the better part of his career working alongside some of the smartest investors and engineers in Silicon Valley, writing books in his free time. But Kamal's most transformative experience has been the simple act of learning how to love himself. Why is it so hard for us? I first heard about Kamal by way of his frequent appearances on our mutual and beloved friend James Altucher’s podcast. Compelled by his honesty and vulnerability, I felt myself holding space with someone who embodied an important wisdom. A wisdom I lacked. Reflexively, I picked up Kamal's latest book, Love Yourself Like Your Life Depends on It. Spiritual and emotional growth is my jam and yer I never thought much about self-love. So I freely admit I met Kamal's book with a healthy dose of initial skepticism. However, the read ignited a realization that I continue to harbor unhealed wounds. Simple, straightforward and profound, I discovered practices not just helpful, but truly transformative. I wanted to know more. Today we unpack Kamal's heroic journey of the heart. It’s a conversation about his trials and his triumphs. His divine moment. The path of self-discovery that followed. And what he learned surviving a recent near death experience. It’s about how he learned to love himself. The simple routine he deploys to maintain it. And why this practice is essential to living an examined, self-actualized life of presence, purpose and contentment. For the stoics and skeptics, I implore you to set aside whatever resistance you may be feeling right now. And give this one a shot with an open mind and heart. Note: This conversation was recorded pre-pandemic (February 12, 2020), thus there is no coronavirus reference. Nonetheless, Kamal's wisdom is timeless. Moreover, the practices we discuss are powerful tools of self-discovery than can prove transformative as we navigate this challenging time. The visually inclined can watch it all go down on YouTube. And as always, the audio version streams wild and free on Apple Podcasts and Spotify. Kamal’s vulnerability is refreshing. I love this conversation and the friendship it has birthed. I hope it serves you as it did me. Peace + Plants, Rich

I remember looking at the Bay Bridge from my window, and I was really sick, burnt out, whatever they call it, adrenal fatigue, all the works. I went to some doctor who worked with me later on it, and I didn't have the strength to walk over the Bay Bridge and throw myself off, otherwise I would have. And I think it was the next night or the night after that I remember getting up, and I was miserable.

I was like, I can't do this. I got to get out of this. I mean, again, I get out of this or die trying. That's it. I can't be in this space. And I walked over to my desk and I have a journal that I write in. And in there, I still don't know where I came from. I sat down and I wrote a vow to myself. Now, I do believe in the power of personal commitment.

Like if I make a commitment to myself, I'm going to keep it. That's something I've had for a while. Something I've trained myself for a while. But a vow. I've never written a vow to myself. I don't know where that word came from. And then it was a vow to love myself. It came in the moment.

I am not a guy who is thinking about, hey, you know what I need? You know what I really need? I think I need to love myself. That never occurred to me once. But yet in that moment, that's what came out. If you're ever in a place where you just need to get out of it, make a vow to yourself, write it down, put it somewhere where you can see it every day, where you're reminded of your promise to yourself, and then do your best to live it. You'll fail horribly every day, but you'll get better and better. Do your best to live it every day. It's really that simple, that power of that personal commitment to yourself.

That's Kamal Ravikant, and this is The Rich Roll Podcast. The Rich Roll Podcast. The Rich Roll Podcast. Greetings, seekers. Hello and welcome to my podcast frequency. I am Rich Roll. Good to be with you today. I hope that you are maintaining your health, your sanity, your immunity, your equanimity as our chaotic world is spinning off its axis. All good here. Can I read an email? I'm gonna read an email. This one is from Dr. Heidi O'Connor, and it goes like this.

I'm sending you this note after completing a seven-day stretch covering the ICU as a pulmonary critical care doctor in Boston, Massachusetts. Wow, how about that? Several years ago, I somehow stumbled upon your book, Finding Ultra. I had been a three-sport athlete in high school and then continued playing two sports in college.

I kept up with running during med school and was able to complete a marathon, but really used running as a way for managing stress. Unfortunately, working long hours during my subsequent medical training and when I became an attending physician led to reduced exercise, poor diet, and worsening stress over the years.

I became increasingly unhappy and burned out with work and felt truly unhealthy. I read your book and it inspired me to make a change. I became predominantly plant-based and gave up eating meat. I'm a diehard New Englander, so haven't been able to give up occasional Cape Cod seafood or Vermont cheese yet.

Oh, Heidi, we'll work on that. Don't worry. I bought a Peloton, which has been a saving grace. I've gotten into hiking and took up meditation. I even got back to running from time to time. I've been able to lose the 20 pounds that I crept on over the years and actually feel I'm in as good a shape

as I was in my 20s. The reason why I felt compelled to write you is that I think you have had a major impact on my life, getting me in the best shape I could be in to help take care of my patients and myself during this COVID pandemic. It's been some of the most emotionally heart-wrenching times I've experienced taking care of patients,

trying to support their families and my ICU staff, and also very physically demanding. I haven't been able to do another marathon or any other great athletic feat yet, but in some ways, I think getting through the terrible times we are experiencing is my marathon. Thanks again for all your inspiring, thought-provoking, and humorous podcasts. Keep me company on my drive in and home from work,

you are helping more people than you know. Take care, Heidi. Wow. Heidi, thank you for the kind words, but mostly thank you for your selfless service on the front lines. I can't imagine what you're currently enduring right now. And please set aside any kind of self-flogging

that you're doing over not being able to take care of yourself physically in this incredibly stressful moment. I'm sure we're gonna get through this. And I'm also sure that what you are currently enduring dwarfs running a marathon. And I have no doubt that you will succeed in whatever you put your mind to,

whether it's a marathon or anything else. So thank you again for sharing that story. Speaking of metamorphosis, I've got nothing but love for stories of personal transformation. And that is perhaps the heart, the most predominant theme of this show. The underdog, the everyman meets unforeseen obstacles. The odds are stacked against

him or her. That person is brought to his or her knees, compelled to seek deep within, and rather than buckle or perish, ultimately leverages that experience to evolve, to evolve into something stronger, something more deeply self-actualized and authentic. We call it the hero's journey. And it's this irresistible archetypal narrative that speaks to, that connects with the mystical embedded deep within all of us. There's just something indelible and powerful and universal about these stories. And over the years, I've had the good fortune of hosting many flavors of this hero's journey

from Olympic medalists and Arctic explorers to professional dirtbags, all sharing their version of the hero's journey, their story of physical triumph. But here's the thing. Life's greatest journey isn't physical. It's not free soloing El Capitan or crossing Antarctica or running ultra marathons in Patagonia.

Ironically, it's learning how to love ourselves. And nobody embodies this specific genus of the hero's journey better than my new friend, Kamal Ravikant. Now, to be clear, Kamal has more than earned his spot as a respected adventurer. He's a guy who was brought up from humble beginnings and has gone on to trek

to one of the highest base camps in the Himalayas. He earned his US Army infantry patch. and has gone on to trek to one of the highest base camps in the Himalayas. He earned his US Army infantry patch. He walked 550 miles across Spain and meditated with Tibetan monks in the Dalai Lama's monastery. And professionally, this guy's done it all too. From launching successful startups to managing venture capital funds,

Kamal has spent the better part of his career working alongside some of the smartest investors and engineers in Silicon Valley, all while writing books in his free time. But his most transformative experience, he would say, has been the simple act of learning how to love himself. So why is this so hard for us? I got a bunch more I want wanna say about that and Kamal, but first, you know what time it is. We're brought to you today by recovery.com. I've been in recovery for a long time.

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go to recovery.com and take the first step towards recovery. To find the best treatment option for you or a loved one, again, go to recovery.com. We're brought to you today by recovery.com. I've been in recovery for a long time. It's not hyperbolic to say that I owe everything good in my life to sobriety. And it all began with treatment and experience that I had that quite literally

saved my life. And in the many years since, I've in turn helped many suffering addicts and their loved ones find treatment. And with that, I know all too well just how confusing and how overwhelming and how challenging it can be to find the right place and the right level of care, especially because unfortunately, not all treatment resources adhere to ethical practices. It's a real problem, Thank you. to support and empower you to find the ideal level of care tailored to your personal needs. They've partnered with the best global behavioral health providers to cover the full spectrum of behavioral health disorders, including substance use disorders, depression, anxiety, eating disorders, gambling addictions, and more. Navigating their site is simple. Search by insurance coverage, location, treatment type, you name it. Plus, you can read reviews from former patients to help you decide.

Whether you're a busy exec, a parent of a struggling teen, or battling addiction yourself, I feel you. I empathize with you. I really do. And they have treatment options for you. really do, and they have treatment options for you. Life in recovery is wonderful, and recovery.com is your partner in starting that journey. When you or a loved one need help, go to recovery.com and take the first step towards recovery. To find the best treatment option for you or a loved one, again, go to recovery.com. Okay, so I first heard about Kamal by way of his frequent appearances on our mutual and beloved friend, James Altucher's podcast. And I can't quite put my finger on it, but there was just something really compelling

about this guy that left me wanting to know more about him. So I got ahold of his book, Love Yourself Like Your Life Depends On It. And here's the thing. I'm all about spiritual and emotional growth, but I also have a pretty deep, profound aversion to schlocky self-help. And despite my many fears, my insecurities, my profound imposter syndrome, my people-pleasing tendencies, I actually never thought I had much of an issue with self-love.

So I freely admit to a little bit of initial skepticism about this book. But I have to say that it really ignited something in me. It's simple, it's very straightforward, but also profound in its simplicity, I suppose. And it's led me to this realization that I actually still harbor a lot of unhealed wounds. And it sets forth all these practices

that I found not just helpful, but actually transformative in many ways. So today we unpack the hero's journey of Kamal Ravikant. It's a conversation about his trials and his triumphs, his divine moment, the path of self-discovery that followed, and the near-death experience that he recently survived. It's about how he learned to love himself, the simple routine he deploys to maintain it, and why this practice is essential to living an examined, self-actualized life of presence and purpose and contentment.

For the Stoics and the skeptics out there who are listening, I implore you to set aside whatever creeping resistance you may be feeling right now and really give this one a shot with an open mind and an open heart. Final note, this was recorded pre-pandemic, so there is no mention of coronavirus, but nonetheless, it's a conversation

packed with timeless wisdom that I think you're gonna find very helpful in this unique moment. Kamal's vulnerability is refreshing. I love this conversation. I'm enjoying my newfound friendship with him, and I really hope that this serves you. So this is me and Kamal and Robocont. Yeah, I've been very, very grateful to HarperOne. They're just, they're really, and look, they published my favorite book of all time, The Alchemist.

Yeah, there you go. You know, so like to walk in there, see that poster, then one day like my poster is going to be by it, you know, like it's pretty special. It's a crazy thing when you go to the publishing offices and you see the cover of your book or you see it like on the wall with these other authors that you revere and have read over the years. Like there's something really magical and special about that. It really is.

I mean, just walking in the public, like when I was going to, you know, like, cause I've written other books as well, like a novel and so forth. And going with my agent to Simon and Schuster, Random House, Harper Collins, all these, like these are, I grew up reading and knowing these names. And so to be there and there's just offices full of nothing but books. It's beautiful. And as a writer to be there, you know, it's what you dream of. Yeah.

Right. It's cool also because you went from this self-publishing phenomenon into traditional publishing rather than the other way around. Like a lot of people, they'll do their initial books in a traditional manner. And then when they develop an audience, then they'll self-publish. But for you to have this kind of viral phenomenon almost eight years ago, right? Yeah. With a sort of truncated, limited version of the book.

And then to develop it with a traditional publisher is interesting. Yeah, it's not something I planned on. When I did the original version, it was tiny, right? But I edited it in X. I cut out 90% of what I wrote, right? And I put it out, and I didn't think I was – and I've said this enough. I really didn't think I was going to send any copies.

I was an unknown writer. I was just a Silicon Valley guy. I wrote a book called Love Yourself Like Your Life Depends on it. Like, look, I failed, but look, I learned to love myself, so life's great. And it took off. The thing took off, insanely changed my life, like showed me just the power of my words. Well, let's back it up a little bit because it kind of began with our mutual friend, James Altucher, who's actually coming here tomorrow. Tomorrow, right? And you saw him this morning. Randomly. It kind of began with our mutual friend, James Altucher, who's actually coming here tomorrow. Tomorrow, right?

And you saw him this morning. Randomly. It's so bizarre, yeah. Yeah, yeah. And I promised to him that I would actually write it. And if he liked it, I would publish it. Otherwise, I never would have. But didn't it begin, like you had, as you say in the book, like you gave,

you got up on stage at a conference and had kind of an epiphany and made this decision to share openly and honestly about what was really going on with you in front of a group of CEOs and the like. Senators, congresspeople, pending on officials and CEOs and media types. And I was given two minutes to give a talk a talk, call, if I could do anything. And other people were doing this talk too. And I had the talk prepared and I got up and I'm like, right before I got up, I'm like, this doesn't feel right. This doesn't feel right. And I got up, I'm like, I know what I'm going to do.

I'm going to share, just share with them what changed my life this past summer or fall. And for two minutes, I just rambled about how I changed my life. I learned to love myself, how it saved me, changed my life, how, you know, like literally transforms everything. And I got off the stage thinking, okay, dude, that was insane. What did you just do?

Like, I was trying not to look at the faces of the people. I wasn't used to giving talks then. And there was a line of people wanting to talk to me afterwards. It was insane. Like people like, this is why I came to this conference, to hear you like say this. Was it just that they found the vulnerability refreshing

or what do you think it was specifically that connected? I'm guessing I was probably the only one who spoke that open at that conference first but um one but i think it was something about just a reminder you know like sometimes and a reminder and i share with them like look this was this turned out to be a very we all know we've all been told love yourself right in fact it's kind of annoying and cliche right what i told them was like look i was a bottom and i figured out a practical way to do it for myself you know because i needed it you know it was the one thing that i felt something inside

me said this is going to save you and i just went with it i figured out in a very practical you know i'm a silicon valley guy so it's like a very practical methodical way that just that ended working for me and so it's like i got the the secret. It's not like, hey, love yourself. Here's love yourself. Step one, two, three, four, five, bingo. You love yourself. You know, so I think I shared briefly, quickly the steps, and then they all wanted to know more and like how to do them.

And so that's when there was a line afterwards. And then when I would share with friends how to do it, there'd be like all these questions. So which is why I originally wrote the thing down to just, okay, I'm just going to give out copies to people. Right. Right. Because, you know. Wasn't it, was it, you got an email

that you forwarded to James, and James was like, you should write a blog post, I'll post it on my site. And you were like, there's no way I'm doing that. No way, man, no way. I'd send an email to a friend who's going through a hard time just describing briefly. Oh, like the practical, you The practical aspect of how it works.

And it really helped him. And James was like, oh, I'm going to publish this on my blog. And this is before he had his podcast. I was like, no way. All my friends read this. I'm terrified. But he's responsible for this happening because he's like, look, you could write about entrepreneurship.

You could write about fitness, all these things. Plenty of people can. But this, the most important thing, you're writing about it. You could write about fitness, all these things, plenty of people can, but this, the most important thing, you're writing about it, you're sharing it with no one else's, you gotta put this out there. He's usually right about those things. Yeah. And I think he's been proven historically correct in this case, but his sweet spot,

I mean, he's basically created an entire career about around having the courage to share your, you know, your failures and your vulnerabilities. And he obviously identified something special in your story and that kind of dovetailed, you know, right into the sweet spot of the kind of things that he likes to share about. Yeah. And, you know, I still didn't think I was gonna do it so i was like tell you what you know i've been i've been training myself to be a literary fiction writer for like over a decade when i was building startups right i wanted to write literary novels you know like i was just studying like crazy i was like well let me write this down as a little practical almost like a

primer of something and and i don't know where know how we decided that if he liked it, I would self-publish it. At that time, you know, Kindle was out and like, you know, there were like all these success stories happening there. And I did it, it took me a month and I sent it to him and I didn't hear from him for a few weeks. And I was like, oh, thank God, he hates it.

I can move on, like blah, blah, blah. He comes back, he's like, I love it. I'm gonna write a blog post about you publishing it, but this day. So that means I had to publish it by that day. And so, and so I, I remember when I, um, a friend of mine reached out to me and she's like, come on, do you remember how terrified you were when you press submit on, on, on Kindle? Like, I think I was calling people. I was like, I don't want to do this. I don't want to do this. I don't want to do this. Best thing I ever did was click that button.

And it was a very short kind of truncated version of what ultimately you've recently published, right? Just kind of like a practical manual. It was more of a primer. Because I was scared. I didn't know what to expect. It was just like a little thing I was going to give out to people, to? Who I knew needed it. Because like, you understand this, when you find something that works, that makes you better, you kind of feel a responsibility to share it.

You know, you really do. Like that changed my life. And so you, when you, and especially when it's yours, when you come up with it, you're like, I got to share this because I'm not, you see the good impact it has on you. And then you see other people struggling.

You're like, wait, I think I have a solution here. you know at least try it it worked for one human being it's on the human mind the human heart you have a human mind human heart try it out right you know it's a very basic thing um but when i put it out i held back a lot you know because i was scared i wasn't expecting it to i didn't want to share all my stories or whatever, but this exists actually not because of me, this exists because of readers. So I did something, I didn't, I was expecting to sell a lot of copies. So I put my email address in the book. I was like, hey, if you got questions, email me. Guess what? People emailed. I have, God knows how many emails, you know, a lot of wonderful, beautiful emails saying how it changed people's lives, literally saved their lives. In the moment of reading the book, they decided to not kill themselves, many of those.

And then just changing their lives, any of the confidence, self-esteem, all this, it all arises from the same thing. But there were questions. And after six, seven years, there's a whole, because I read all the emails or respond to them, there's a pattern, there's themes. And I was like, look, I held back. And I realized I need to put this book out. If I'm going to have it out, I need to have it in a real way. I need those questions resolved.

I know why those questions are coming up is because I held back. So I got to stop holding back. And so that's what I set out to do. And that's why it took seven years. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. To what do you attribute the virality of the original self-published version? I mean,

you sold like half a million copies, right? Yeah. That's crazy. Did it start with James's blog or like how did the word get out? Yeah, it started with James's blog. Then people got on their own and started tweeting it facebooking it uh it was all over facebook people were just sharing on facebook um uh tim ferris tweeted about it that it got him out of a funk uh so there were all these people like trying to do it but here's the interesting thing you know i've built companies in silicon valley i know the online game very well like Like if you, if you get an app, if like, if you look at an app, someone to invest in someone's app, right? You look at the data. Now you can game metrics.

You can buy downloads, you can game even book numbers, you can buy your own books and all that. Right. But with this, what happened was it, it was just, it came out, it's hovering like this and shot up, came down a little bit and then just stayed for seven years like that. Just up there consistently. That is when you know you have something special. When a product does that, whatever it is, it hits something.

You know what it was? It was, I'm not a self-help. It's a self-help book written by a guy who's not a self-help guy. It's just a guy who works on himself, who's lived a bit, who shares his personal journey and exactly how he did it. And it's very easy to read, easy to digest. It's very plain spoken. On purpose.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, I wanna work our way up to getting into the nuts and bolts of the book, but let's take it back a little bit because I wanna better understand what got you to this point. And, and to kind of contextualize the whole thing. So you grew up in Queens, Jamaica, where a rap Jamaica Queens or a rap came from.

Yeah. Yeah. And, and, and my sense is that you are always like your own person. Like, you know what I mean? Like not, not an easy person to control or corral. Yeah. And my sense is that you were always like your own person. Yeah, I was a pain in the ass. Not an easy person to control or corral. Yeah. You had a mind of your own.

Yeah, I was always a pain in the ass that way. Uh-huh. School came easy. It did. It was boring. I never felt like I fit in anywhere. You know, I never fit in. Look, I was a shy kid.

I just read like crazy, you know, like I i read a lot books for my refuge as a child we went through some really rough stuff like really uh one point we're homeless you know i had an abusive dad there's like you want to start listing things we went through them and it was rough and books with my refuge that's what i escaped to and um which if you think is amazing and now write books, right? But yeah, that was the childhood. But I've always done my own thing. Like I went to college, had a full scholarship, and after a year I left it and joined the army.

I know, that's such a strange choice. Like walk me through that decision tree. Step one, I'm 18. Step two, I'm in college for a year. It's a state school and you can get straight A's without really going to classes, just partying. Bored out of my mind. I want a challenge.

Third is step three, I'm an immigrant child. I want to serve this country. You feel that, you know. People often forget that about the immigrant story, just how much, how grateful you feel serve this country. You feel that. People often forget that about the immigrant story, just how much, how grateful you feel to this country for being a part of it. And I wanted to be challenged and I wanted to just, so all that put that together

and just walking by recruiter's office one day to decide to pop in and they had a good sales pitch. Effective marketing. It works, man. So you had one by one, Marines, Navy, Army, Air Force. All of them. So what was it that put the Army over the top? Yeah, that's a great question, right?

That's a great question because they offered the most money for college after. Because I still knew I wanted to get an education. It was very important to me. But I knew I didn't want to go to a state school. I wanted to go to a smaller private school. And to be able to afford that, also Army would give me more money. Because they also, not only did they offer more money, they said, okay, I'll tell you what.

They give you this test called the ASK Web, which decides what specialty you can choose. I got 98th and 99th percentile, so I could choose anything. They're like, but if you choose the one that people who fail take it, we'll give you more money, which is infantry, you're a cannon fodder. I was like, sweet. But on top of that, if you take a harder one, mountain infantry, we'll give you even more. I was like, sweet. Just signed up for the hardest thing with the most financial upside. But you know, it was great. It's like the way I look at it, if you're going to do something,

you know, do that all-in version. I don't want to drive a truck. Another part of the immigrant story, you know, I presume that, you know, on some level your parents immigrated here to, you know, try to create a better life or a different kind of life than, you know, what was being experienced in India.

So what's the phone call back to mom like when you tell her you've enlisted? It's actually interesting if you think about it. The life in India they had was like upper middle class. But there's something about the pull of America that draws people to it because there's something about the pull of America that draws people to it because there's something special about it. So it wasn't like escaping from poverty or anything like that. There is a draw to this country, to the freedom to be able to do anything, go anywhere.

I think that that is also part of that immigrant story, although we didn't have that when we came here. It was pretty quite the opposite in the beginning. The phone call to mom was a very interesting one. It was from college. Mom, I'm thinking about joining the army. Pause. Okay, think carefully.

A week later, mom, I joined the army. That was it. And her reaction, silence? army. That was it. And her reaction, silence? Silence. That was it. Silence. I mean, I was at the age where she couldn't do anything. Yeah.

And she knew me, you know. You had already established a pattern of doing your own thing. Yeah. And she had a healthy dose of like, I can't control this kid anyway. And she was like, this might be good for her. She was on board with this? Yeah. I remember she told me. A little discipline?

Yeah. Right. Yeah. So bootcamp then, right? Bootcamp, Fort Benning, Georgia, in the middle of the summer. It was, I look back at that as actually like one of the defining experiences of my life. And I'm so glad I gave myself that gift as an 18-year-old. You know, I wasn't thinking of it that way back then.

Because look, you know, if you look at any tribal society, any primitive society, quote-unquote primitive, you know, there's always a rite of passage you go through from going from boy to man, you know, girl to woman. There's something about you challenge, you test it, then you're welcomed into the tribe. Now you're a man. Now you're like, you've earned this right.

We miss that often in our society. I don't think college and partying is that. There's something about where you're challenged and you step up, and you step up, you realize what you're made of. Boot camp did that for me. And then infantry boot camp did that for me. Every day you're challenged. There's no pleasant day.

There's no like, ah, man, I'm just going to sit here. But I was still the guy. And patrol and I would be like, hey, move, because I'm standing there looking at stars. But a sense of pride and ownership. Like, I did this hard thing. This is mine. Yes, at that age. If you were just kind of cruising through school, there probably wasn't that same, you know, sense of accomplishment. Yeah, there wasn't that at all at school.

And the military is good about that. They do give you that. They do challenge you, and they do make you feel like you earn what you get. Yeah, they're very good about that. And were you deployed? No. I was in during Desert Shield, Desert Storm. By the time they said, hey, we may deploy you,

I was light infantry, mountain infantry. The thing was over because it was an air war. So you're just hanging out in Georgia? Georgia, Fort Drum. Funny enough, I ran into someone who was in 10th Mountain to flight here. And randomly, I never meet people. We were talking. She's like, yeah, I was deployed all the time.

I was like, yeah, well, you actually worked. I didn't. So that, you know, kudos to you. So how long were you in the military then? Total, I think a little over three years. I did some of the reserves because I went to school. I had a chance to go to a private school upstate in New York. So I went there.

So you took that sweet army money, put it to work. It turned out to be not much. It was all marketing fluff? Yeah, It turned out to be not much. It was all marketing fluff? Yeah, it turned out to be way less. There's all these stipulations. You know, when you're an 18-year-old signing a contract, you do not look at the fine print. They just say, this much money?

You say, okay, sweet. When the rubber meets the road, it's like, there's loads of fine print. But I'm still, you know, it's fine. So you go back to school. What's the plan? The plan is to, it wasn't a plan. I was studying economics at the time.

I ended up studying economics and biology. And I thought I was going to go to med school and be a emergency pediatric person. I was working in hospitals and level one trauma centers to get that experience for med school. What was the allure of medicine? Do something useful. Like it was like I could go anywhere in the world and be useful.

I could land in a random village in Timbuktu, and I could be useful. That's what it was. Yeah. And so how come that didn't happen? I took a break. I backpacked around for a while. My dad died.

I went to India to his ashes there. We weren't close at all. So we were estranged, but I was with him when he died. And I was in the hospital when he died. And I was living in the hospital when he died. And it was being in the hospital, watching the experience kind of shook me up. I couldn't be in, I had to get away from hospitals for a little while. And when I came back, I ended up actually wandering with a backpack for about eight months through India and Nepal and Europe with like $3,000 to my name,

nothing more, like no credit cards, nothing. And living, I think in Europe on $5 a day, that was my budget, $3 a day. And when I came back, I knew I wanted to write what I'd experienced. I knew I had stories to tell. So I started writing and I was looking at medical school and then Silicon Valley was happening. And my brother, he called me, he said, hey, get the New York Times this weekend. I said, why? He said, just get the New York Times. I said, okay. And so I'm reading the New York

Times trying to figure out why. And the Sunday magazine, there's a two-page write-up of my little brother on this company he started. Is that for AngelList? my little brother, you know, on this company I started. Is that for AngelList? No, no, AngelList is more recent. That was way back in the day, like, you know, the first.com boom. Right, so we're early.com boom. Early.com boom. And a two-page write-up.

I mean, in fact, Amazon reviews and all this stuff copied what he built. They didn't have that. And all these ratings that exist on the web exist because of what he built. And I called him up, and he's like, look, what are you doing watching people die every day? He said, come out here, we're building the future. I was like, man, you know, like I was kind of warned of watching people die at work. And I just finished the first draft of terrible, terrible draft of a novel. Right.

You went like you went up upstate in upstate New York and hold terrible, terrible draft of a novel. Right. You went like you went up in upstate New York and holed up to try to write a novel, right? Yeah. And wrote it. And it was atrocious. Absolute atrocious, you know. Six months, you know. But sometimes you got to do the atrocious to understand that, look, there's a path to non-atrocious. Of course.

You know, this book here doesn't exist without doing a lot of atrocious writing over the decades. I've done those 10,000 hours. And when he said that, I thought about it. And I was at the gym, Gold's gym.

I was working with this guy. And I was talking to him. I was like, man, I want to go out there, but I'm scared. I'm like, you know, there's, what if, he's like, look, Kamal, I have one piece of advice. I said, what?

He said, leap and the net will appear. And I don't know what it was, but literally that shifted for me right there. So I got rid of everything, bought a one-way ticket and just moved out. And leap and the net will appear. Yeah. And it's something I've learned. That's how it works. It does. It absolutely, I mean, that's, I the net will appear. Yeah. And it's something I've learned. That's how it works. It does.

It absolutely, I mean, that's, I've had many experiences with that very thing. And what I've also noticed is when I try to sidestep that by having my foot in both camps at the same time, trying to do the safe and secure thing, like, well, I can't quite leave this thing yet, so I'm gonna develop this on the side, and when it matures can't quite leave this thing yet. So I'm going to develop this on the side. And when it matures, then I'll take the leap when it's safe, never works out. I mean,

maybe it does for other people. There's a rational argument for that, but there is something, I think, transcendent and magical when you have the faith and the courage to completely let go of what's not serving you and take that step into the unknown. And in my experience, when you do that full of heart, well-intentioned and prepared to work your ass off, that inevitably something happens to catch that fall and create a soft landing. I think it's one of the fundamental truths of life.

It really is. But there's no way to learn it. You have to experience it. And it's scary. Yeah, it's scary each time you do it. Because it's a different cliff you're jumping off. Different scenery. But you got little bro out there killing it.

And we should say your brother is involved, right? He's kind of become like a guru in his own right. It's kind of an amazing thing, right? What's going on with you guys? I don't know, man. Maybe it's kind of an amazing thing right what's going on i don't know you guys i don't know man maybe it's in the blood who knows um uh but you know he was doing his own thing i went there to do my own thing and uh so i end up like working there and building startups and kind of fell in love with it like the ability to create these companies and no one knowing what they're doing, we're just making it up at the point, right?

Figure it out and just throwing it online and seeing if it works. If not, you're iterating. And there was an energy that I hadn't experienced before. There was an excitement and an energy of building the future. Well, it was this crazy moment where ideas could get funded seemingly overnight and turn into these realities. We just hadn't experienced that with the cryptocurrency boom, same.

But cryptocurrency boom was way more scammy. Yeah. But yeah, it really was. And people coming from all over the world from there just to like go west. It was literally go west, young man, all over again. Right. And it was a very special moment in time. That's where I trained.

I look at that as my MBA, where I trained. You just get thrown in. Okay, now we've gone public. We've got to figure out how to monetize. I don't know. Come on, figure it out. I'll figure out how to monetize this public company on the web. No one knew. Did you have a sense that your kind of multidisciplinary approach to life served you in that regard?

Like as somebody who had, you know, a kind of variety of interests and, you know, kind of a jack of all trades, master of none approach came in handy for that kind of thing? You know, it's interesting you ask that because I used to beat myself up when I was younger for having too many interests, which is why I struggled with the whole medical school thing, because as much as I wanted to be a doctor, I knew I would have to give everything else up. I love to travel. I love to take all this time to read and write and do these other things, right? And startups, to be able to build a company from scratch and go take it somewhere you basically have to do everything

and it turned out to be what I thought was my greatest weakness it turned out to be what you think is your weakness you just put it in a different environment it's your greatest strength so yeah it was a perfect fit and that was part of the reason why I made that choice because I was flourishing in that

were people prior to that, throughout your life telling you, you need to focus? Yes. Oh my God, so true. You could be so great, just pick a lane. Yeah, yeah. And it makes you think about how many people are out there being fed some version of that story,

people are out there being fed, you know, some version of that story who, you know, don't find that situation where suddenly the round peg fits into the round hole. You know, that's probably more common than not. Yeah. I would say so. I think that's the best thing is like switch your environment if that environment is not the fit, but it's hard. It's hard to do. So you've built a bunch of startups, multiple companies over the years, rocking and rolling.

Off and on. Yeah. I mean, it had to be pretty exciting. Making good money, everything's good. I mean, most never go anywhere. That's the dirty little secret of startups, right? Like 90-something percent fail. That's not a really good sign. Similar to like screenwriters in Hollywood or projects.

There's so many projects that you think are going to go. People toil on them for years, and then they just end up in a drawer somewhere. Yeah, but at least in Hollywood, they get paid for doing those. Like you could be working at a startup for years, making practically nothing and it goes nowhere. And so some went places, some went nowhere, but it was a good gig. Yeah, no complaints.

I enjoyed it. And I enjoyed working with some of the smartest people on the planet. You meet people who are stupidly, scarily smart. But everyone's smart in their own way. And then to be surrounded by people who are smart in a way that I'm not and to be able to work with them and lead them and learn from them was beautiful. What are some of the biggest lessons that you learned during that tenure

about life and business? You know what's interesting? The lessons I learned were stuff I knew. Like, for example, I developed a reputation for being able to build really great teams, just be able to get really great people to come on board for my crazy ideas, for me paying them nothing when they were getting massive offers. Like, how? You know what?

Basically, I just did what I learned in the military. So I'm going to use the word men because I was in the infantry and it was all men or boys or whatever. And you take care of your men. If you're leading, you take care of them. You eat last. You show up first. You leave last. You lead by example.

You show up first, you leave last. You lead by example. Like when you go to Fort Benning, I remember being in that bus, being taken from Atlanta Airport to Fort Benning, and there's a statue, a very famous statue of an infantryman in World War II. And he's got his rifle and he's got his hand up like this and he's charging forward and he says, follow me. That's basically leadership in a nutshell. Follow me.

And so that's how I built stuff. Like I was the hardest worker. I was the lowest paid guy. I led like all the credit, always went to the team, never took any credit. You know, because I don't care if we win. I'll do just fine. I'd rather have the rewards than the credit. But that came from an 18-year-old year old you know i didn't learn anything like that

um doing it i learned it it's very interesting yeah that is interesting so there's a good chance that you know short of some experiences that you that you had that were working our way towards um this could have just gone on ad infinitum, iterating on, you know, startups, going from startup to startup. And then writing novels on the side and collecting rejection letters. Did you keep the writing up persistently throughout all of this? Yeah, that's what I did in my free time. Obsessively studying the greats.

Like there's certain Hemingway books I read, I don't know, 20, 30, 40 times underlining, see how he did what he did. I was obsessed. But never the thought that that would become your vocation. This was something you did purely for the love? For the love. And people are like, what are you doing wasting your time? You're getting rejection letters.

Like, what are you doing? Right? But it was like I knew I wanted to put books out there. I just didn't know if it was going to happen. In fact, by the time I wrote The Original Love Yourself, I'd given up on writing for a couple of years. I hadn't written for a couple of years. But man, that training that I thought had been useless, you know, it came out and it's been amazing.

Yeah. So talk to me about the precipitating event that kind of catalyzed this whole thing. I feel like, well, here's the thing. Like all great personal evolutions begin with some act of destruction. And it lends itself to the belief that these amazing epiphanies about the human condition grow. They emanate out of the ashes of various forms of disaster. Well, to be a few- Those opportunities exist.

They're there for the taking for anybody. You can read your book and get a sense of what led you to this point that set you on a new trajectory. But the opportunity exists for anybody to take advantage of these tools for personal growth and evolution shy of having to meet your maker, so to speak. But unfortunately, pain is the ultimate motivator. It does get your attention, I'll tell you that. But it's like, I've thought about this it's like to be a phoenix

you gotta burn it's like the whole process of rebirth it's not easy it's not painless so the precipitating event for what led to love yourself the inciting incident what does it be called in chemistry?

Yeah. You know, when the reaction happens. I had built a company. I had self-funded it. This was going to be my FU money company, right? And it was doing very well. I was actually taking away real business from Google, Yahoo, and a vertical no one had ever done before. I was pulling it off.

Built a great team. Got the deals that no one could get. It was like I was obsessed, right? And I was built three and a half years, and then I ran out of money. You know, building a tech company for three and a half years, you run out of money. Self-funded. Self-funded, right? Pretty much everyone's going to run out of money, except for a couple people.

Yeah, and I took investment, and it was doing doing well and the whole thing blew up. And I lost everything. I lost my company, but along with it, I lost my sense of self-worth, to put it mildly, because my company was my complete identity. What I was doing was my identity. I was depressed beyond belief. I had no money. I was living off credit cards.

I remember having to make some payroll on the side to some of my employees of credit cards I was like look man you bought him a crazy dream I can't have your wife and kids because you know and it was rough to be an understatement

there were times where I was like look I remember looking at the Bay Bridge from my window and really I was so exhausted I was like, look, I remember looking at the Bay Bridge from my window and really, like, I was so exhausted. I was burnt out. I was like, I was like really sick, burnt out, you know, whatever they call it, adrenal fatigue, all the works. Like I went to some doctor who worked with me later on it. And I didn't have the strength to walk over the Bay Bridge and throw myself off. Otherwise I would have, you know, I was literally like that.

And I think it was the next night or the night after that I remember getting up and I was like, I was miserable. I was like, I can't do this. I got to get out of this. I mean, again, I get out of this, I die trying. That's it. I can't be in this space. And I walked over to my desk and I have a journal that I write in. And in there, and I still don't know where I came from.

I sat down, I wrote a vow to myself. Now, I do believe in the power of personal commitment. Like if I make a commitment to myself, I'm going to keep it. That's something I've had for a while. Something I've trained myself for a while, but a vow. I've never written a vow to myself. I don't know where that word came from. And then it was a vow to love myself. It came in the moment. I am not a guy who was thinking about, hey, you know what I need? You know what I really need?

I think I need to love myself. That never occurred to me once. But yet in that moment, that's what came out. Where did it come from? Where's that, what's that deep stillness that runs the whole show? Yeah. Well, you have this crushing incident. Your ego is crashing down, you've been humbled,

you've been stripped away from all of the externalities that you were living for. And it's like a deconstruction of your character all the way to your very core, right? Like there's few things more painful in life. And to be confronted with that presents you with a choice like destruction or rebirth, the bridge, or in your case, finding a way to love yourself. And they're both very tempting. I mean, in fact, that bridge is more tempting than the love yourself. I'll be honest because the bridge is easy. The love yourself. What does that even mean? Yeah. I remember sitting back kind of looking at myself, like looking at this, like what have I just done? But I had written a vow, right, to myself.

Like there was something there. Like that doesn't just happen. And so I was like, all right, now what? I'm going to have to figure this out. I'm going to have to do this. Now, even though I've written a book about it, I didn't go read books on it. Anything I'd come across in that genre had been all platitudes, but nothing.

I'm a big believer in if someone's on fire, don't lecture to them about nature or combustion. Throw water on them. Practical solutions. Practical solutions. Show me how to fix my mind. You know, this misery, this pain, this angst, I'm in. Get me out of it.

And so I was like, well, it's my mind. So who's going to work on it for me? I am. I have no choice. I made this vow. And now I have a direction of this love, this L-O-V-E word, which I wasn't even sure what it meant. And so I started to try to do it. And I didn't know what-O-V-E word, which I wasn't even sure what it meant. And so I started to try to do it.

And I didn't know what, I tried like, I was like a mad scientist in my apartment, just trying things. I was like, should I write it down this many times a day, this, that? Should I like, just feel excited? What should I like? I was trying all these things. And at one point I stumbled, I was tired. I was like, you know what? I'm just going to start saying it to myself because that's one thing I can do. And so I started repeating it to myself. And it was interesting to happen. After a couple of days, I had nothing else to do.

The company was gone. I had no money. I wasn't in a shape to go get a job. I had time. And I had a credit limit on my credit cards. And something started to shift after, I think, about two three days and you know it's my mind i'm keeping you know so i noticed i started to feel a little better and all i've been doing was just running this just looping this phrase yeah telling yourself time and time again i love myself i love myself i love myself that's simple and i was like okay this it could be

basically because by doing this one loop i'm actually keeping all the other loops from running, you know, with the self-destructive loops or the negative loops. But could be maybe I'm going somewhere deeper. And after three, four days, I remember I was like, well, let me try to feel it. And I started making myself feel it, you know, and it feels really fake in the beginning. What is the process of going from head to heart with that? Like the distinction between repeating this mantra time and time again and attempting to feel it? Well, this is what I came up with, was I somehow connected the sense of light to the feeling of love. I don't remember. I think it might've been because of the moonlight was coming in one night through the window as I was doing this. And I was feeling the light coming from the, like a big moon and big, you know, window in the bay. And yeah, that's what it was. I'd forgotten it. Right. And, and so I remember starting to feel like light coming in and I would take a deep breath with the light coming in. I would imagine this is not just the life in the

moon. It's like all the, it's like galaxies tipping over breath with the light coming in. I would imagine this is not just the life in the moon. It's like galaxies tipping over and just the light pouring from them into my head, just coming in. And the light coming in through my body as I breathe in and I'm feeling the love come in. And then I just breathe out whatever gunk needs to go. And I started doing that and that shifted things like that. That was like, okay, there's something here.

And what was that shift? And that shifted things like that. That was like, okay, there's something here. And what was that shift? Like what was the physical manifestation of that? You notice like a heaviness that goes away. Yeah. You know, and in fact, when I was just describing, I was kind of sort of doing it and I felt like my chest feel lighter.

You're absolutely right. There is a physical component to it that I've sort of forgotten because now I just do a lot of this in autopilot. But that was one of the things. And then I started doing a meditation with it. So I was just practicing, trying things. Because like I said, I had a vow and nothing else to do, and something was working.

And so if it didn't shift things, I threw it away. And so by the end, I'd basically taken this basic loop and built like a practice around it of a meditation, of like a seven meditation of looking in the mirror, doing it to myself, which is more of a physical, anchoring myself to my physical self, and then walking into this mental loop. And I started to shift everything inside.

How long did that take? Less than weeks, a couple of weeks. I had to shift everything inside. I wasn't- How long did that take? Less than weeks, couple of weeks. Keep in mind there was a trial and error. There's a lot of trial and error going on and a lot of disbelief. I did it because I had nothing else to do and because I made a vow and I was desperate because otherwise there was the Bay Bridge.

That was my other choice. Right, desperation fuels willingness though. God, yeah. What I think is really interesting about this is that the typical reaction to experiencing something devastating would be to seek out a therapist, go to the doctor, or perhaps even go to an ashram or seek out a guru or start reading a bunch of books, like to seek externally for answers. But in your case, you kind of did the opposite. Like you just went in deeper and deeper and deeper and experimented with your own intuition and instincts. experimented with your own intuition and instincts. The tools that came out of this are not, I mean, there are other people that do variations of the things that you're talking about.

So it's not like you invented something that didn't already exist, but you had to discover it within your own personal experience rather than sit at the foot of a guru and have that person tell you to do that. Yeah, I'm trying to remember why I didn't seek externally. Part of it is I'm kind of,

I'm almost trying to figure things out. I've always been that kid who's trying to figure out the nature of reality since as far as I can remember. But you're right, it was instinct. But it was also like, I didn't think I could go to anyone with the level of desperation I felt.

Like I'd done therapy in college. It was one of the best things I ever did to, you know, go for some childhood stuff. But I'd done it, right? I'm trying to remember. This is a great point. I'm trying to remember why I just went in. I think because of that vow. And I was like, I made a vow to myself.

I got to keep it to myself. And- Was there a fear of letting anyone else know what you were experiencing? This crazy talk? Yes. Yeah. That's a great point.

But no, I mean, just calling your friend and saying, listen, I'm thinking about jumping off the bridge. Like I'm in a bad state. Like I need help. Or were you just, were you isolating and like determined to figure it out on your own? The latter. As opposed to seeking help.

The latter. Cause that can also be, that can lead people to the greater depths of darkness. That can lead them to the bridge. Yeah. That was, I wouldn't recommend it. Yeah. Been that path. It's, there's many paths to transformation. Some are easier than others.

I would recommend an easier path. So I had, yesterday I had this guy, Shane Parrish in here. Do you know who Shane is? Farnham Street. Yeah. And there's an interesting juxtaposition between the things that we talked about and what he talks about in his writing and in his book.

And what you talk about in that Shane is a guy who has a computer scientist mind and realized that nobody had really canonized how to make good decisions. And so he went out into the world and canvassed the best information possible and tried to create like a latticework, an encyclopedic latticework of how to make good decisions. Interesting. You know what I mean? Like in a very kind of rational, logical way saying we need a better guide on how we're making decisions that impact our lives so we can lead better lives and and create better businesses etc um and his so his focus was was was very much a looking outward what are the what are the greatest minds of all time what have they had to say about this let me take the best of that and figure out a way to synthesize it in a way that can that can help me figure out like a program,

for lack of a better word, to make better decisions. In your case, there's an analogy here and kind of a converse relationship in that you looked inward and rather than going outward and saying, what are the greatest, most enlightened minds have to say about how I can get myself out of this hole? You just went inward and trusted your instinct.

You know, it was very much an emotional spiritual journey of trying to deepen your connection with self and not be influenced by the outside world. Man, you should have been around then. You put it beautifully. I don't know about that. I look at it, I didn't know what I was doing. Right. And in that original version of the book, and now more fully fleshed out. Significantly fleshed out. In Love Yourself Like Your Life Depends On It, you kind of walk

people through like, here's what I did, and here's how you can do it too. And there's a variety of practices that begin with looping this mantra of I love myself. You've got a breath work practice, 10 breaths, this meditation practice where in your case, it's seven minutes, you find a song that basically allows you to anchor yourself. And that's a daily thing, this mirror practice, which I wanna talk about.

And they're all like very short, easy things to do when undertaken consistently can really shift those neural pathways and alter how you feel physically and how you feel emotionally. Yeah, because that comes from just like, I want to be efficient. It's just called basically I'm lazy. So I want to do efficient. It's just called, basically, I'm lazy.

So I want to do the least amount of work for the greatest impact. And I don't want to spend the rest of my life walking around doing like a crazy man, just speaking to myself. I love myself, right? So I was just trying out, what causes the greatest shift that I can do?

And just start doing those regularly. So these were some of the things. The 10 breaths one is really, it's simple, man. It's so simple, but it's- Walk me through it. So remember what I told you about, so we're breathing every day, whether we want to or not, until we're not.

So 10 breaths throughout the day, like actually I was doing on the Uber ride here, I'll actually just pause from everything. Like if I can, I'll close my eyes and I'll take a deep, the 10 deep and purposeful breaths. These are intentional breaths. This is, for these 10 breaths, this is what I'm doing. This is who I'm being.

And with the in-breath, same thing. The light from galaxies coming in above. The light is, with the light comes a feeling of love. You know, we're wired for light. And are you saying, I love myself as you're doing that? Sometimes, sometimes no. Sometimes a feeling of love. You know, we're wired for light. And are you saying I love myself as you're doing that? Sometimes, sometimes no. Sometimes just feeling the love. Because I've anchored the feeling of light to love, right?

And you just, if you do it enough times, it just becomes natural. And I feel the love come in and just go in. And I just feel my heart and my chest just open and get lightened. And then I just breathe out. And then what happens is usually about the sixth or seventh, I notice, automatically, but I'm breathing out, I'm breathing out, thank you. So breathe in love, breathe out, thank you. 10 breaths. Just throughout the day, pause and do that. It settles you better than anything. It's a very simple thing. So I've added these throughout the, basically what I've done in the book, I've showed all the different things I do, pick and choose what works for you.

But this is also the core practice. But that one, anyone can do anywhere. You can do it in the toilet, you can do it in the shower, you have no excuse not to breathe. What's funny is that they're so simple, right? And it's easy to dismiss them as hokey, right? Like you think, oh, this is like Stuart Smalley looking in the mirror on Saturday Night Live saying, you're worth it and you have value. And it's just like, come on, man. Are you serious? But I know that these techniques are effective. I can't say that I've practiced this specific regimen, but I do have a very good friend.

I'm part of like a men's group. I get together with a, with a group of guys once a week and we, with a therapist and we talk about things that are going on in our life. And there's one friend who, who's part of this and he has been doing this very, I don't think he's read your book, but he has been, he has been practicing the, I love, I love myself mantra. And he's been doing the I love myself mantra, and he's been doing the mirror work, like basically for the last, I think like maybe four or five weeks,

spending time in front of the mirror, like just staring into his eyes and saying, I love myself. He's read the book. I love myself. He must have, right? I haven't come across anyone else doing that. And he has been sharing

that it has been completely transformative. And this is somebody who is already very much a spiritually advanced individual. This guy's not new to techniques like this. He's already a very evolved human being. And he has been telling us that this has really notched things up to a whole nother level for him in the way he's experiencing the world. That's awesome. Yeah.

You know, it's an art. You know what is a simplicity is ultimate sophistication. You gotta distill down to the simplest, simplest thing. That's where it works. That's where the truth is. It's easy to create complicated practices. And, you know, I could have put in all sorts of incense bowls and this and that,

which are great for ambience, but- People like that though. They're like, take me, yeah, I get that. I love myself, but like, take me behind the velvet rope. Like, what's the VIP version of this? It's the same thing. Like, you know, look, I've been in 12-step forever. And you're like, really?

It's the same steps? They haven't updated this thing? You know, it's like, what? Oh, I have to, like, do an inventory again? Come on. Like, give me the advanced program, the AP version. Well, I did something in the book that, in the new version, that does help, does kind of go there, which is I took an experience of when I felt this is after I've

been doing the practice. And I kind of got late. I got very lazy and let life get in the way and I fell apart. It turns out- This is the whole third part of the book. Yeah. It turns out you don't just fall apart once in life. And what I did was I started doing the practice again from scratch because I've been doing it for a long time. I'd gotten lazy, you know, and I'm the guy who wrote the damn book, right? And so what I did was I wrote down exactly what I went through, also the inside, and shared that in here. So one can actually see, okay, it's not just like, here, do this,

this work for me, do that, but actually see me doing it and see the inside effects. So the nuances matter in these things. See the nuances that are happening. See the shifts that are happening. See what I'm doing right. See what I'm doing wrong. And let me point it out to you,

which is actually what get, I wanted to cut that part out so badly because it's so honest, so vulnerable. And it's thanks to Gideon. He was like, no, no, no. This is the reason why I love it as well. No, that's the shit. Yeah, I mean, that's the whole thing

because it reinforces our shared humanity. Like we are fallible human beings. This is a practice. This isn't something you do and go, oh, it's all good. And I did that and now I'm moving on to this other part of my life. Like this is a recursive thing. It compounds over time, but if you take your foot off the gas,

you're gonna reset and you're ultimately gonna regress. And the way I like to think about, I mean, I think it's profound and I think that that third part really anchors that whole idea in a really grounded and beautiful way. I have my own version of that story.

It was impressed upon me when I was in rehab, like, look, you know, every moment, every decision that you make, every thought you entertain, every person that you encounter, these things are either moving you, you know, back towards a drink or moving you further away from a drink. You're either growing or you're regressing. There is no stasis. As human beings, we want to believe that we can arrive at a static state. And that's a great delusion that I think leads most of us astray. And when I was finishing Finding Ultra in late 2011, this memoir about addiction and recovery and this journey towards greater self-actualization,

I relapsed, like 13 years sober, and I relapsed. I'm turning in the manuscript, like this book's almost done, and it was one of the most shameful, embarrassing things I could ever possibly imagine. Like, how could I actually pick up a drink after 13 years when I'm about to put out this book that talks about this journey towards sobriety as one very significant component of it. And it's the very same thing, which is that I got to a place

where I was on cruise control and thought that I had it handled. And I never questioned whether or not I was an alcoholic, but I took my foot off the gas and deprioritized my engagement with 12-step and that community. And ultimately, after a year of that, it was inevitable that what happened happened.

And luckily I found my way back immediately and I've shared about this publicly many times. And now I look at it as a gift because it rebooted my engagement with that aspect of who I am and really reinforced this idea that it is a practice and that this is not something you're going to ultimately transcend. Like this is, oh, I woke up again today. Okay, I got to go do that thing again, you know? Yeah, it is a practice. And like I use the word coasting and that's one of the reasons why, you know,

I was like, look, here's the dangers of coasting and here's, but really that third part, you know, we were talking about Gideon Wild Harper one. He's the reason why that's still there. I was too terrified, but I'm glad I kept that because that's been very impactful to people. Yeah, I think the vulnerability in it is powerful. So why don't we explain what it is that kind of catalyzed that?

Well, it was a really traumatic breakup. Someone I loved dearly, still love, and it wasn't my choice. And I'd been going through stuff at the time I knew him and that was like the incident that just kind of made me come apart at the wheels. And the interesting thing was, part of it, there was that shame. I was like, look, I'm the guy who wrote the book on how to fix this stuff, right? You've graduated. I've graduated.

I got a corporate job. I graduated. I got a corporate job. And that was actually, so I actually kind of struggled and I fought it. I almost like, I was like, well, maybe it won't work this time because I've fallen off this wagon. But it's like, in the end, it was like, go with what you know that works. You got to go back to what you know that works. And I started doing it almost grudgingly, almost like, shit, grudging and grudging.

And you know what? It started to work. It started to work. It started to work. And so I even show how I did the process kind of like ass backwards. And I say like, look, this is the actual process. It's taking me this long because I'm fighting it.

But look, even as I'm fighting it, look at what's happening inside. Look at the effect. Every single word, every single word in this book is true. It has happened. It's what I felt. It's what I felt. It's what I experienced. Yeah.

But, man, that was interesting, feeling the internal shame. I remember sitting at the airport, getting ready to fly to San Francisco, just reading David Goggin's book had come out, you know. And I was reading it. And I was like, you know, when you read something like David Goggin, you're like, damn, that guy's impressive. You know, and you're feeling like me I just fell apart again like right I know yeah he could have that effect right a mirror for our own fallibility right

well I think what is profound about it is that destruction, it's like what you said, like, you know, if you want to be a phoenix, you got to burn. Like, opportunity finds its moment in destruction, right? And it's this grand opportunity to deepen your surrender to something more powerful than yourself, right? It's you're being asked to, you know, prostrate yourself a little bit lower to, you know, to really give over your ego even more, to humble yourself and to, you know, let go, like you're being confronted with your character defects in a really profound way, right? So then you have to forgive yourself again

and you have to do it even more profoundly than you had to prior. Yeah, it's actually, you know, I'm learning like life, you know, it's like building a startup, excuse the analogy, but no company just rocket ships straight up to the right. It's like, it's loops, you know? But there is something to be said about consistency

and what really matters, like fitness, right? If you're not consistent in your practice, it'll show, your body will show. Same with the mind. And the mind is actually more plastic, more malleable than anything else, yet it's the one that we work on the least. We really do, right?

Right? We really overlook it. That's starting to change. it's starting to change but there's a lot of stuff out there that's um i don't know if it's effective or not there's a lot of stuff out there in the end it's got to be something what is the best workout what is the best nutrition plan it's the one you can do consistently. You know, that's what you gotta go for. It's consistently that gives you results. Let's go back to forgiveness for a minute. I think that's an important piece in all of this.

So how do you think about and practice that? Well, forgiveness, there's two forms, right? Forgiving others or forgiving yourself. The novel I wrote, Rebirth, that's about forgiveness, but that's about forgiving my father after he died, the whole journey while I walked a pilgrimage in Spain. And the result of that pilgrimage was I learned how to forgive him.

Right, like 550 miles. Yeah, Camino de Santiago. And you know what it was? In the end, it was just realizing his humanity. He was a human being, man. You can't hold humans to the criteria of gods, but we seem to do that. And just realize his humanity.

When you realize someone's humanity, it's very easy to forgive. But in order to do that, you have to transcend your to uh transcend your child your childhood lens on your parent right and and and shift that perspective to see it through the eyes of the parent or to see the eyes of a human being looking another human being you can never completely remove that right the parent but if you can just do human being to another human being that right away shifts it and you see their struggles.

Even faulty decision-making, whatever, but their struggles. And when you understand that, forgiveness actually comes naturally. Because you can't help it. You can't understand. You don't have to accept it. You don't have to say, yes, I agree. I'm glad you were that way. I'm glad you did X, Y, Z.

Because forgiveness ultimately is freeing yourself. You don't have to say, yes, I agree. I'm glad you were that way. And I'm glad you did X, Y, Z, but you can, because forgiveness ultimately is freeing yourself. Yeah. You know? Yeah, I think we look at it as a two-way street. Like I'll forgive you when you ask me for forgiveness or you admit what you did and how you wronged me. But ultimately the person who's carrying the resentment

or the anger or that pain is the one who is suffering. The one who is the object of being not forgiven is often even unaware of that. That's our great irony, right? So it's a self-inflicted harm. I was at an event, a thing last night. It's another like little group thing that I do that was created by this organization called the Nantucket Project. And they've created these neighborhood, they're called neighborhood projects, little group thing that I do that was created by this organization called the Nantucket Project. And they've created these neighborhood, they're called neighborhood projects, where little,

you know, small groups of people get together and they watch a short film that the Nantucket Project produces. And then there's a discussion ensues, kind of like to create, you know, you know, greater community in our neighborhoods. And the movie that we watched last night in this group setting was a short documentary about the genocide in Rwanda and how the president of Rwanda was faced with this prospect of how to repair his country in the aftermath of this horrible tragedy. And the story is told from his perspective and also through the perspective of a perpetrator of the genocide, somebody who killed a lot of people, and a woman whose family had been killed. And ultimately, it's a story about how these two people forgive each other. And it's incredibly inspiring. And

it left me thinking about the incredible exponential power of forgiveness. I think there's something beautifully transcendent and unique about forgiveness in that it holds this potential energy capacity to be so incredibly transformative. Maybe it's because it's rare. I don't know what it is about it uniquely, but to see that, it's impossible not to be moved. And it leaves you thinking about the people in our own lives that we refuse to forgive or the resentments that we hold onto about how we've been wronged and the pain that that creates

and the impediments to moving forward that that constructs in our lives. And also about the people that we've harmed and thinking more deeply about people who might be out in the world carrying that kind of pain over things that we might've done. Yeah. And then forgiving ourselves, right?

To repeat and loop the mantra, I love myself. I think self-forgiveness is a subset of that. Yeah, that's actually the other part of forgiveness, right? Self-forgiveness. What I found, you know, for me, it's what I've learned is start with the self first. You work on the self, the rest actually gets easier. The rest just naturally starts to work. And same thing with here.

It was like in this book, I have a practice that I do on forgiving myself, and it actually works beautifully. And it's a very practical practice. Like everything, it's practical. You can do it, and you will notice the shift. And what I learned was I didn't have that in the original version. What I've learned is, if you're gonna make a commitment to love yourself,

you're gonna do this practice, you know, leave the past, you can't leave the past behind, but leave the shackles of the past behind. And what you do is you forgive yourself and then you start to love yourself. That's almost like the step-by-step. Right. And it makes a huge difference.

And again, it's not platitude, it's actually do it it's like you know um i mean if very quickly it's like i i don't know where i come up with these crazy things i i had a i had a girlfriend at the time and she was really holding on to some stuff against herself and i was like look i think i know what to do come with me so we drove down to pescadero by the beautiful like just open land cliff looking with the oceans by the lighthouse it's an incredible beach it's very wild oh one of my favorite places to fly you can watch whales go by it's it's amazing right rugged northern california and we got there and i gave her a piece of paper and a pen i said look write down everything you're holding against yourself. Start with, I forgive myself for.

Then I forgive myself for. Just keep on doing, keep on doing until you're spent. And she said, okay. She said, but then you have to do this too. I was like, shit. All right. I wasn't planning on it. Because what it was for was that she's like,

you haven't forgiven yourself for not going to medical school. You beat yourself up for it. You need to do this for that. I was like, okay. So I sat there and I wrote all the ways I forgive myself for not going to medical school. And then we both read ours out loud away from each other. So it's a private, you can say anything out loud until you just really feel the weight of what you've been carrying. You have to feel the weight. There's a weight, right? It's a physical thing. And you read out loud enough times,

you feel the weight and you're like, I'm done carrying this. I wanna let it go. And then just balled up the paper, walked out to the ocean, said, okay, and then just threw it as far as we could. And you know what? It worked.

I literally, ever since that whole thing about not going to medical school, it disappeared. And her thing disappeared. And I've done this other times in my life for other things, or just like generally, hey, I forgive myself for every screw-up over the last three months. Being human and all. And, you know, like when I fell apart with the breakup, I did this exercise to forgive myself for knowing better, you know, like when I fell apart with a breakup, I did this exercise to forgive myself for knowing better, you know,

for falling apart and for, you know, not being better. And it works. It's really, it's a simple thing. And I think part of the reason why it works, and I say like, look, you don't have to go by an ocean. You can sit on fire. You can throw it on the toilet. It doesn't matter.

It's the intention because you realize the weight of what you're carrying, you say, I let this go. I choose to let this go. And it's that act of deciding that something inside shifts. It's very similar to step four and step five and 12 step. Do you know that?

No. Oh my God. It's, yeah, I mean, basically step four involves doing this inventory of your life and your behavior, sexual inventory, a resentment inventory. It's a very robust document that you work on over time to kind of purge your – to get clarity on where your character defects come up and how you participate in these crises that you form stories around. in these crises that you form stories around and ultimately to then give it over, to let it go, to surrender. And in the case of 12 Step,

it's like letting the higher power take it for you and letting it go. And it is a transformative experience. Like the first time that I did it, I was in rehab in Oregon and I went, I finished my inventory and I drove to the beach, another rugged Pacific Northwest beach, sat on the beach by myself and did a private ceremony.

And then I burned it. It was similar to the kind of experience and, and, and it was incredible how different I felt after that. But here's the thing we already kind of, um, touched on it a minute ago, but that doesn't mean you're done. No, you, you, there's no, you gotta go back and, and it's like, okay, you went through that. All right, time to start again. But then it's like not just forgiving yourself. It's like, who are you going to be now? Right?

That's where I realized what the next step is. You make a commitment to yourself. You know, for me, it was loving myself. And that's what this whole book is about. Then you make that commitment. And then how do you keep that commitment day by day by day? So it becomes a way of being. And the effects just happen in your life.

My favorite of all of these tools is, is this other recursive phrase, which is, if I love myself, what would I do? Or some version of that, right? Like if I love my, what would be the right action here if I actually love myself? Yeah. It's a question i came up with um when i realized i was making poor choices and and and you know like if you most of the time in our and i realized in our head we're basically answering questions that's what we're doing we're asking answering questions or and so it was like why don't you just create a question that asked myself whenever i'm making have to make choices just to make it a habit. And the best part was the if, if I love myself,

because then it doesn't have to be, I have to be loving myself in the moment if I love myself or what I do, because then you know the answer. Then it becomes a conscious decision. I can still choose to make the choice I shouldn't make, the choice, the poor choice, whatever you want to call that.

But at least I'm doing it consciously. You start living more consciously that way. And sooner or later, you get tired of making the poor choice consciously and start making the better choice. I was practicing it yesterday. Oh, yeah? It's incredibly practical, and it really makes you confront yourself. Like I was in the grocery store, and I'm walking down the aisles,

and I'm like, what am I going to eat? And it's like, I want to, I want to get this thing. And then I'm like, if I love myself, is that the choice that I would make? Like, if I love myself, what would I actually choose? And of course you're going to, you're going to say, well, I would choose the healthy thing, the thing that's going to make my body healthier and stronger. Right. And if you have that in your conscious awareness, as you're navigating these seemingly like small little decisions that you have to make throughout the day, there is a like strong ripple effect. It's very practical. This one actually can change the trajectory of your life.

This one alone. Right. But all of these require practice. We do them, right? Yeah. So you'll never graduate? No, apparently not. And I'm always trying to figure out what's the next level?

What's the next level? But man, this is a good foundation. How does this dovetail with gratitude? Like you hear about practicing gratitude, which is kind of an ephemeral concept. Like how do you practice gratitude? What are actions that you can take to infuse your emotional experience with more gratitude?

You know what I found is sometimes I play around rather than love, I'll use other concepts, but the same exact practice. And I feel light. I, you know, I feel just like all the magic of life coming down on me. And then when I breathe out, what do you feel naturally when you feel that gratitude comes out? Or do you feel naturally when you feel that?

Gratitude comes out. Or when you feel real love, what comes out naturally? Gratitude. I found that gratitude actually comes up naturally when you're doing this as a side effect. I don't even have to work on it if I work on this. Yeah, I can see that. I'm wondering what it would be like

if you walked around saying, if I was grateful, what would I do? It's like a corollary. You know, rule of that. That's a great question actually. You know what? Your mental state will be better. I'm sure it would be.

Like these little simple questions that are, you know, we can ask, we should, if I was grateful, if I was, if I loved myself, you know, but we stick with the basic, basic foundation things. What's love, gratitude, there's fear. There's a few things that we just wired for and that's it. Yeah. Well, we've been talking for a while and I feel like there's an elephant in the room

because you are here. It's kind of a miracle that you're even here. Like there but for the grace of God go I. You just experienced a very near-death experience that I think until very recently, you weren't even allowed to travel. So I wanna hear that story. And more importantly, I wanna hear how that experience

has kind of colored how you think about these practices and what you wrote in the book and how it shapes, how you think about your life going forward. Yeah, that is a hell of an elephant. I was gonna open the podcast and talk about that, but then we just started talking. Yeah, which was great. I didn't realize we were rolling.

I feel like, I think we're rolling. Yeah, we started. That's how we do it here. I like it. It's actually very comforting. And we're on. This is October. I went in for surgery for an old injury I had being fit and active.

I injured an artery. And so they went in and they fixed it. And the next morning I was going to be discharged, but the artery burst. Basically the stitches hadn't taken. And immediately, like boom, all of a sudden I had a soccer ball grow in my lower abdomen really fast, and that was blood. You know, an artery burst. Internal bleeding.

Yeah, but an artery bursting is a one-way street. You know, it's a pressurized system. The hose, literally one of the hoses breaks. That's it. There's no, you know, like in a submarine where they shut the doors kind of thing. And it grew so big, so fast, so much pressure that it burst, and it was spraying blood out.

Spraying blood out where? Out of my lower abdomen. So it broke through the skin? Broke through the fascia and everything. Imagine, I mean, it's pretty painful, I'll tell you that. But it got their attention in the hospital. Because I'd been complaining about pain, and they weren't giving me any attention.

And the nurse just thought I was trying to get more narcotics. And then when I started spraying blood, I also noticed they're calling doctors. Yeah, like this guy just wants more drugs. And so they immediately had to wheel me into emergency surgery. It was like right away, like boom, there was someone going into a was someone going into a surgery to pull that person out, pulling that OR, because this was literally life or death. I was bleeding out. I bled so much blood.

I remember one guy just trying to like hold his hands over, but trying to just stop the spray, you know? And I remember being in the OR, still being kind of wide awake, wide awake because I was in shock and adrenaline. And all of, there was nothing, you know, no like long drawn out floating towards a light thing. It was just, it was flashes of images of love.

It was basically images of love and fear, you know, images of just like regret, love, fear, like, and fear in a way I've never felt fear because it was so primal your your body your mind doesn't know what to do if you lose blood like that you're watching your own blood spray out of your body it we're not designed for that that's not a normal occurrence usually that results in death right and and spraying out of your abdomen you know like it's not like out of your arm or something like that and um and I remember the anesthesiologist and she was leaning over and, you know, everyone had just been rushed in. This was an emergency. They're all running in this like mayhem. They're moving things around. And, and I remember these glasses she wore, they were pretty cool,

funky glasses. And she's like, okay, I'm going to, you know, put something in, you know, I just like pushed it aside and grabbed her hand and just brought it close. I don't know what it was, but it was like I had to tell somebody. And I looked her in the eyes, just kind of like brought it in close. I'm like, I'm scared. And then what she did was she put her hand in my hand, and something in me calmed. And something in me, Fred, the two thoughts went through my head.

I wasn't thinking much. One thought was thought was what a shitty messy way to go because here i'm watching blood spray out people running in an or this would be my last realizing this is my last experience of life this is my last images i'm seeing this is not what i would have wanted right that's one. And second, realizing I have no fucking choice. And something got very clear. All of a sudden, you know, like the images and everything just go away and it just becomes very clear, like I have no choice. And there was a sadness to that, but then there was also like, okay. And I remember she hadn't put the stuff in the IV,

so this wasn't the drugs that kicked in because I used to work in a hospital so there's a part of me that still keeps an eye on that I'd actually talk to them about it afterwards too and just feeling like okay if this is it this is it and I remember leaning back

because I think I'd be sitting trying to sit up a little bit just from the adrenaline, leaning back, I was feeling like this image of, I'm falling backwards into the darkness. Like you see like someone falling into an ocean, dark ocean, just falling, falling. That's what I felt like. I was just falling, falling, falling.

I'm like, and that was it. That was my memory. And I didn't know you were in, that's it. Were you conscious the whole time? and that was it. That was my memory, and I didn't know you were in it. That's it. Were you conscious the whole time? Well, and then in that, then I could feel them put something in, and then slowly, like I was starting,

because they had to slash me open. Yeah, they had to open you up, suture, find the artery, suture it. Well, then one other thing was, the surgeon, when she came, she had come in, too, and I grabbed her hand. I was like, look, don't make me have gone through this for nothing.

Fix the thing I came here for. I was like, look, don't make me have gone through this for nothing. Fix the thing I came here for. She's like, okay. How complicated was the original surgery? I mean, did they pitch it to you like, this is like kind of a thing. You'll be laid up for a while. Or like, oh, you'll be in and out. This is no big deal. Well, it was complicated, but it was a very standard microsurgery procedure.

This was not expected. Was it like the same day in and out or had you spent the night? No, I would have spent a day or two in the hospital. But you were getting ready to be discharged when this happened. So conceivably, you could have been in the Uber on the way home or sitting in your apartment when this happened. Yeah, if that was the case, that would have been it. Yeah, you wouldn't have made it.

Yeah. It was literally like when I was, they were like process getting me ready to like say, okay, I'm getting ready for discharge. How much blood do you lose? I don't remember a lot, but I remember the resident saying, one of the residents,

I was in the hospital for a while after that. And the residents and the staff that became my friends used to come hang out and talk with me in their off time and we'd eat together. And they said like, man, you were like gone. You'd like, like you'd lost as much as we could let you. And it was just like a fricking soccer ball just built up so fast.

Wow. It's insane. And that was all blood. And in that like release release there's an acceptance and i guess an even deeper surrender like a sense of absolute powerlessness yeah and is there is there a piece in that i guess in the moment there was because you have to because struggle doesn't do anything and you realize that is when you have no choice but no white light no, the white light

it felt like my body was light but everything else was darkness and it was just falling backwards that's the kind of image I remember but that's almost like a third party image. So keep in mind, I was also in shock at the time. Right. Right. And, and I know you're somebody who's done like a lot of plant medicine and, you know, packed into that. There are, you know, these, these experience, these sort of near death experiences that you have or rebirthing and the thing, and, you know, things of that nature, did it bear resemblance to those experiences?

Dude, I've done it all. And let me tell you, none. Actually makes me feel better. I'm actually glad to hear that. I am being 100% honest. I'm very experienced in plant medicine. I'm a very curious person. I've gone tried.

I've done some crazy stuff there. I've experienced what I thought you could experience. Not the same. Not the same. Not the same. So does that color how you think about the value of those experiences? No, because I think they still give you a taste. They still make you better.

They still make you face yourself. I think they're wonderful teachers. I highly recommend them. So this experience, you end up in the hospital for quite a while after that. Has it altered kind of the things that you say in the book? Like how has this shaped how you think about life going forward? Well, honestly, I have to return to the practice again

to keep myself from just, you know, I've spent months writhing in pain. I was in an insane amount of pain. Two back-to-back surgeries, one a very aggressive, one major surgery and then 12 hours later, one very aggressive emergency surgery. Right. You know, like.

Oh my God. One of the surgeons told me, if anyone qualifies for these narcotics, it's you. What caused this? Was there any kind of, is there an argument for malpractice here? Was it just, was it human error? You know what?

I've thought about it. I'm not a litigious guy. Everyone does their best, but there were some things that happened and it's just been the level of pain I've had to deal with for so many months. You know, I was talking with your wife about this earlier. I have such empathy now for people who live with chronic pain. Pain grinds you down. Physical pain, like extreme physical pain just grinds. And so like I've had

to do this work hard just to keep afloat when I'm in physical pain. You know, it's like to be able to just like get up and walk across a room and not be sweating, you know, like what that takes. Like, so I've actually had to go deeper in this, but almost in a survival way. Like I am right now an animal in survival mode and loving myself is literally just surviving.

Yeah. You're pain-free now though. I'm better. There are times where I still deal with it, but it's very manageable. I'm getting better. The body's amazing, right? And I literally feel like I've been rebuilding my body.

You know, I'm used to being very fit and healthy. Thankfully the surgery, they went the second procedure they did, now they went in, they went into and took a vein out of my leg, like a big pipe yeah and put that in as a as a big conduit so so at least if because i was like don't make me go to the experience right if i come out of this at least we know that artery is strong now yeah it's it's better than like that would have been made it worse right you can yeah and and what's interesting is is is trying to divine the lesson

in all of this, right? Like we were joking before the podcast, and you're like, I thought that I'd been tested. I'd kind of been brought to my knees a couple of times in my life, and I felt like I'd learned the lessons and am moving in a good direction. Did I really need this to happen?

Haven't I already had my wake up moment? Like why this, why now? I'll be honest, man, this brought me to my knees in a way I've never have. I struggle at times. It's like, I almost left. Why am I here? I don't, I'm struggling,

especially when you're in pain, your mind goes there, right? I'm still struggling with it. And I'm so grateful that so i turned in the final final master of this book i think the week before i went into surgery right and and now this book comes out and this is a book i so care about um you know all i have such an obligation to the readers you know who emails me and who gave me the questions to put this out to the world, that that's the thing I get up for. That's why I got on a plane and came to LA to see you,

is to share this book. It's like I gave myself this gift before going to experience. I don't know if I didn't have this book what I would have done, honestly. It's something that's bigger than me, that's more important than me, that will make me get on that plane when if I'm feeling pain I will get out of pain and come

and share the book that that's been a great gift I don't know where I'd be if I didn't have it and secondly

because I have the book I read it right and and it's like sometimes you know I wrote this for myself and

and so so there are moments in life where it's a practice like this could literally just make you survive. And sometimes that's all you can do. You know, you're just a... It's very interesting. That's something I just realized the other day, because I've been beating myself up for it, for being like closed off from everyone and just being curled up in pain. And I was like, dude, you're survival mode. Yeah.

It's okay. Nobody's expecting you you know going on the talk show circuit you just got out of the hospital um like i mean i got a hospital in october but you know i couldn't wait to get out it was like the first one they say you might be out i was like take these damn things worst place to be if you're not feeling well is a hospital, it is the worst place on the planet. All your dignity is gone. You've been poked and prodded 24-7, you know, and just, and that's where a lot of the germs are anyway.

Right, right, right, right. But it's interesting that after all of this, you're still beating yourself up, measuring yourself against some standard that nobody else is applying to you. Well, I have to do the self-forgiveness practice again, don't I? Yeah. Don't we all? Yeah. That's the interesting thing. I'm realizing that I need to do some of this stuff that practice more often than I thought.

I'm learning this stuff myself. I'm still evolving it myself. And it's very interesting. I've had to go back to it, but in a very different way. And now that I'm getting better, I'm very curious to see what the effects of still doing it will be. Yeah.

And I think there is a deeper lesson in what you just experienced. I think you just need time and distance from it before that becomes evident or clear. But I think more will be revealed. I think that something will come out of that that you will then realize is an opportunity. I hope so.

I would believe if you go through something, there's something good, a gift that comes out of it, but it's up to us to find that gift. Right. I mean, one of the things you talk about is this idea of inverting the idea that things are happening to you and looking at it from the perspective of you happening to things. Or maybe even another corollary to that is things are happening for you. For you, yeah. You know? Yeah.

That one's been hard with this experience. Yeah. You know, I think maybe it might be who I've become because of it. You know, who I choose to be as I rebuild myself. Who I've become. We'll see. Yeah. Well, I can't imagine that you came out of the,

and you must have come out of this thinking life is even more precious than I previously appreciated. And that time is short and we don't know how long we're going to be here. And, you know, if you have a message that you feel strongly about, like now is the time to, you know, give your all to what is most important to you. Yeah. I mean, I'm lucky I have it, it you know but putting this book out um it's interesting the thing about precious some of those um it's weird uh because time still goes by slips by and i find you know we fall back into our way of living which is just like you know often wasting time um the mind is very interesting how it quickly forgets lessons one has to be constantly reminded

what i like to do is i like to remind myself of feeling um just feeling life feeling blessed by life sometimes because i have to look at that being surviving no matter what i went through as a blessing there has to be a blessing in there and what does that look like like what is the actual practice i do the same thing as i do with the 10 breaths, except now the light becomes blessings. I like that. I like that it's so simple and practical. You know, it's not, there's not a lot of, you know, in the book, there's no window dressing around anything woo-woo.

It's like, this is what I did. It feels so much better. Like, and here's how you do it. It'll take you five minutes. You know? I get a lot of emails from people who say like, It's so much better. Like, and here's how you do it. It'll take you five minutes. You know? I get a lot of emails from people who say like, what made them use the book or what made them share it was the fact they could tell it was just a guy,

just a dude who wrote it. A dude who did it, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I listened to the podcast that you did with Jonathan Fields and he put the question to you, like, given that you had an interest in fiction writing, like, why not make this a parable, this book, rather than making it a practical primer,

doing some storytelling in a fiction setting? I don't remember what I said to him, but what comes to mind now is because for something like this, you just need the simple truth. Straight to the fact, this works, this is how it works, this is what to do. I think what you also said to him was that it's the honesty, like the personal honesty and accountability was what, in your belief, was what made it connect with people. Yeah, it's amazing. People are, readers are wonderful.

You know, just how they reach out. They give you more than you give. And I feel like you give. So are you still like a Silicon Valley? You live in San Francisco, right? But are you still like a VC and all that? Or are you just full on? No, I'm in New York these days.

Oh, you are? You're in New York. Okay. Yeah, you are? You're in New York? Okay. Yeah, it was a long flight to come see you. I thought you came from San Francisco. I didn't realize. Wow. Yeah, my flight was delayed multiple hours.

It was a full cross-country. Totally worth it. Yeah, yeah. Thank you. No, I run a VC firm that I built on my own after I had lost everything, and I rebuilt myself. So I invest in tech startups and the writings, what I realized is what I'm putting this planet for. And that's, that's the thing that I'm going to leave behind, you know, these books. But yeah, I enjoy, I love working with, like I advise some

companies, I invest in companies. It keeps that part of my brain active, you know, and, and I actually enjoy it. You, you know, you get to work with people building brain active, you know, and, and I actually enjoy it. You, you know, you get to work with people building the future, you know, it's, it's fun. Yeah. Well, you got to write about what just happened to you. I think so. Yeah. But I don't have a, there's no lesson there. Well, maybe it's not, it's not yet time to write about it, but at some point, I think there will be a lot that comes out of that.

And like I said earlier, I think it will be revealed to you. But at some point, I think it's going to be important that you write about that. Okay, thank you. What else are you working on? That's the thing. That's one thing I'm struggling. I've tried writing and there's nothing that's coming out that's inspiring me. Right.

You're in your gestation period. So I'm reading a lot. I've actually been reading a lot of physics and quantum physics and just going to rabbit hole in nature reality. That's interesting. Yeah, just like, okay, look at Stephen Hawking's paper and this and that. Like what is, you know, the smart guys, the really smart guys, their interpretation of nature reality. I've been really fascinated by that.

So just kind of like right now, I'm feeding my curiosity about these things. Is there like an approach that you take towards trying to decide what to read, or is it just your muse? It's my muse. It's the internets. You know, there's rabbit holes. Reddit is amazing. You can find an expert in everything,

or someone who thinks they're an expert in everything. I've also been working on, okay, what is a practical philosophy of life I want to live by after all that I've been through? What is something that I can actually live? And this is the philosophy I've been working on practically. And I'm not suggesting this for anyone, so please people don't send me any emails about the flaws in it

it's literally something I'm trying to do which is I am the cause of everything in my life because when I do that it's all personal responsibility, there's no victim there's no feeling sorry for myself there's only choice everything that has happened in my life

because look, the nature of reality if you were to really bring it down, is that there is no reality. We don't know what the whole show is, but there's this whole 3D dimensional thing. There's more to this game than that. I'm with you on that. We know that.

So then, okay, if that's the case. You talk to my wife. Yeah, she's awesome. I love your wife. By the way, please people order her cheese. It's out of this world. I mean, you know, she's functioning in multiple realities simultaneously, I think.

But go ahead. Yeah, so I've been thinking like, look, but how do I, my whole thing is, how do I practically live something? I don't want to just theory. I want to be better because of it. So I'm like, look, if there's this underlying layer and somehow we're just, I'm a part of him connected.

It's like consciousness. Let's say it's all consciousness and that's the ocean. I'm just a look, if there's this underlying layer and somehow we're just, I'm a part of it, I'm connected, it's like consciousness. Let's say it's all consciousness and that's the ocean. I'm just a wave in the ocean that blip comes and goes. The wave almost went, but it's still in the ocean, right? What is the way I can live that somehow almost frees me, but also gives me forward momentum? Because if it's all this choice, then it's in your control. So I am the cause of everything. I've been actually looking,

I'm the cause of that experience with the surgery. I'm the cause of good things happening to me. I'm the cause of bad things happening to me. I'm the cause of it all. So what do I do? So that's a personal philosophy I've been kind of working on myself and just trying to mentally do it,

where everything I go through, I am the cause of this. Not that I made you appear out of thin air in our ritual, but more like my experience of life. Right. No, I get that. I mean, I think it's a spiritual bent on a very Goggins-esque idea, you know, just sort of unbridled, absolute responsibility for everything in your life, and, you know, never blaming anyone. And I think when you're of that mindset and you approach and navigate life in that way, it's impossible to be a victim, right?

Because if you're taking responsibility for everything that happens to you, good or bad, or taking responsibility and ownership for every conflict that you find yourself in, then you become an actor rather than a reactor. You become the hero rather than the victim. And you're presented with opportunity rather than dead ends, I think.

Correct. You know? And I'll tell you, it's not easy to live this in your head because the mind rebels. The mind wants to find cause outside yourself. Sure. That's what the whole training-

Who does to point the finger right you know so it's almost like a little mental training i'm doing for myself so that's kind of like a new thing i'm working on just kamal welcome to kamal's world right well i know i think that i think that that's i mean that's a it's a harder thing i think to practice than repeating i love myself or doing the mirror work, you know, because it gets harder. And I found, and this is, you know, for me, it always goes back to 12 steps. This is another thing I learned that like, even when I find myself in a conflict with somebody else where it's clear that I've been wronged and everybody that I talk to about this thing will all agree

with me that I am the victim. This person wronged me. There's no gray area here. Always, always, if I'm honest with myself, I can find my part in how that situation or that dynamic was created. allows you to transcend that victim mentality and also provides the opportunity for self-forgiveness and forgiveness of the other person so that you can release, surrender, and free yourself from whatever pain or emotional weight that that forces you to carry around. Yeah, I think it's gonna be very powerful, but it's hard.

Yeah, I know. How are you doing with it? Depends on the moment in the day. But I'll tell you, but like even doing the love yourself practice, I do it because if I'm the cause, I have to work on my inside. If who I am is the cause of my experience of life, then I have a responsibility to work on my inside. Because if I don't, then I'll be the cause of shitty things. Yeah.

Another thing I wanted to talk to you about is honoring the child within, right? As somebody who, I mean, you've endured a fair amount of childhood trauma. It's easy to fall into victimhood over that as well, right? Yeah. And it's the kind of, the more you evolve and grow, the more you realize that you loop patterns and tell stories that were formed from that childhood experience that then show

up in behavior patterns in adult life that don't serve you. And yet you feel powerless to kind of snap out of them. Yeah, that is, yes, all our facts. Yeah, yeah. So, but you kind of have a practice around how you kind of talk to the inner child or honor that young person inside of you. Yeah, and it all comes from this practice.

So what I do is I take the foundation, this practice of foundation, approach different parts of me and my life through this lens. And, you know, the first time I did it, I remember something shifted because I realized something about the child. You know, I was used to be ashamed

of what the child went through. You know, I was shamed or dirty at this and that. I was wounded. I was tainted. Like these things, I overcame them, right? But I was ashamed of the experience of the child. And when I did the sex the first time, it's interesting when you do these,

your perspective shifts, you know? And like if your perspective shifts, everything shifts. And as well as no dumb ass, excuse my language, no dumb ass, this child survived so you could be you. This child went through this, I mean, think of the strength it takes to be a child, you know, and go through things and continue on and not quit and keep on working to like,

one day I'll get out of this, one day I'll be better, one day I'll get out of this, one day no'll be better. One day I'll get out of this. One day no one will screw with me, blah, blah, whatever, right? But that child deserves medals, not like keep that child hidden. And it was like, oh my God. It was a huge perspective shift.

And it was a game changer where like you're grateful to the child for having the strength. You don't think of a child as having strength. You realize the strength it takes to be a child and endure abuse. That's insane, right? And so like now I just feel so much gratitude and gratitude to this child.

Like, thank you for your strength. You know, I'd never realized that before until I did this. Right. I like that. I mean, that's a very cool practice and way to think about that wounding. You know what I mean? When you think about the experience of a child, even a child that grows up in a healthy environment, a young child in the period of 24 hours will throw a couple tantrums, cry a bunch of times, be frustrated, feel angry because they can't

communicate their idea or whatever idea they're trying to communicate isn't landing right. Like the emotional turmoil of a childhood experience, even under the best circumstances is incredibly challenging. When you think about it, like they go through more emotional turmoil in a day than I certainly do, right? So the strength, the capacity of a young person to, you know, weather so much, it seems obvious that we should honor that, you know? Yeah. It's kind of, it's very interesting. I mentioned this to other people and it's actually caused that shift in them too. I find that I'm not the only one who was that way about his childhood. When you come from a traumatic childhood, you kind of like want to put it under the rug.

You're like, I got over it. Right. That's in the past. I'm done with that. Yeah, I overcame it. I got over it. I'm fine. Whatever.

But honoring that child who made it happen, who had the strength, that's special. I think that's a good place to end it. Love yourself like your life depends on it. What, what is like, you know, just to kind of close this down for somebody who's listening to this, who feels stuck or, or perhaps finds themselves in a, in a, in a situation that they can't see their way out of, give that person a starting point.

Starting point. Look, what did it for me was making a commitment to myself. And first deciding that, look, I'm going to keep commitments to myself. But if you make a vow to yourself, if you're ever in a place where you just need to get out of it you make a vow to yourself, if you're ever in a place where you just need to get out of it, make a vow to yourself, write it down, put it somewhere where you can see it every day. Be reminded of your act, your promise to yourself, and then do your best to live it. You'll fail horribly every day, but you'll get better and better. Do your best to live it every day. It's really that simple, that power of that personal commitment to yourself. It's that simple. And you don't have to lose your company and all your money or, you know, get left by, you know,

your one love in order for you to take advantage of that. Right. I think that's the important thing. Like, you know, a lot of people's elevators are going down. They don't realize that they can get off every, you know, at any moment they have to experience that bottom and that wake-up call is required or necessary to get that person's attention. But the truth is these tools are powerful and transformative and available to you wherever and whenever you find yourself. Yeah, it's the human mind.

I know. Well, thank you for sharing. Oh man, this was so worth it. I appreciate it. Thank you. I love the book. Like I said, it's not only packed with these amazing transformational practices, but it's super easy to read and enjoy. Like you can

literally, you know, read the whole thing in an afternoon. It's very easy to digest. So I appreciate that. And that doesn't come easily because you put in those 10,000 hours, right? Yeah. Yeah. That's because you put in those 10,000 hours, right? Yeah, yeah, that's craft. So thank you for the book. I think it's a gift and I think you're a gift to humanity and I appreciate the work that you do, my friend. Thank you so much. So come back and talk to me anytime.

You can find the book at your favorite independent bookseller or on Amazon. You can find Kamal on Twitter at Kamal Ravikant, but he will not follow you back because he only follows one person, The Rock. What is that about? Well, if you read the book, you'll understand. Where else can people find out what you're up to?

Twitter, Instagram, the usuals, you know, but just my email address is also in this book. Yeah. Email me. Right. But, you know, email me if you read the book. Do you respond to all the emails? I do. Sometimes it takes a while because I get backlogged, but I always do. People are really good. Sometimes you'll find someone who just has an axe to grind and you just happen to be the one they want to do

it. Polite, respond and end it. But most people, I've made friends with readers, like people like considered good friends who reach out to me, just started having conversations. You know, it's amazing. Yeah, that's cool, man. Well, I'm gonna be in New York this spring. Can we go grab dinner? God, I would love it. Get James and we'll all go out for a bite.

I would love it. Some vegan food? Yes, sir. Okay, thanks, man. All right, that's it. Thank you, Kamal. Appreciate you. Peace.

Dude, this is the best interview I've had. I'm so happy to hear that. This is the best interview I've had. Oh, I'm so happy to hear that. This is the best interview I've had. Like, I can't wait to, like. That's the title of the podcast now. Kamal Ravikant. The best interview he's ever had. I kid you not.

Amazing guy, amazing story. I told you guys, right? Pretty cool. To dig deeper into all things Kamal, check out the links and the resources on the episode page at richroll.com. And be sure to give Kamal some love on the socials. You can find him at Kamal Ravikant

on Twitter and Instagram. His book, Love Yourself Like Your Life Depends On It is available everywhere. Pick it up. Just might change your life or at least your perspective. That's it for today, you guys. Thank you for tuning in.

If you'd like to support our work here on the show, subscribe to it on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, and YouTube, where you can also leave a review or a comment, share the show or your favorite episodes with friends or on social media, and you can support us on Patreon at richroll.com forward slash donate. Thanks to everybody who helped put on today's program,

Jason Camiolo for audio engineering, production, show notes, and interstitial music. Blake Curtis and Margo Lubin for videoing the show, editing it, creating all the short clips that we share on social media. Jessica Miranda for graphics. Allie Rogers for portraits. Georgia Whaley for copywriting. DK for advertiser relationships and theme music, as always, by Tyler Pyatt, Trapper Pyatt, and Hari Mathis. Thanks for the love, you guys. I appreciate all of you. I hope you are safe. I hope that you are taking care of yourselves

and your loved ones. And I'll see you back here in a couple of days with another awesome dose of amazing. Until then, peace, plants, Namaste. Thank you.