The Rich Roll Podcast - Kathy Freston Is The Queen of Clean Protein

Episode Date: March 8, 2018

Where do you get your protein? Notwithstanding rising mainstream awareness that a plant-based diet provides more than enough protein for optimal health and athletic performance, every vegan continues to constantly weather this refrain. So let's put the issue to bed, once and for all. To walk us through the myths, truths and half-truths when it comes to this hotly debated macronutrient, I sat down with the doyenne of all things vegan, my friend Kathy Freston. Returning to the show for a second appearance (Kathy first appeared in RRP #109 in the Fall of 2014), Kathy is a wellness activist and 4-time New York Times bestselling author whose books include of  The Lean*,Veganist*, and Quantum Wellness. Her newest offering, co-authored with former podcast guest Bruce Friedrich (RRP #286), is entitled Clean Protein*, a comprehensive primer on all things protein with everything you need to know to get lean, gain energy, stay mentally sharp. A media darling, Kathy is ubiquitous. Her Oprah Winfrey Show appearance inspired the great Ms. Winfrey and her entire staff of 378 to go entirely vegan for 21 days. In addition, she has been featured on Ellen, Dr. Oz, The View, Good Morning America, Charlie Rose, The Martha Stewart Show, Extra and on the pages of Vanity Fair, Harper’s Bazaar, Self, and W. This is a conversation about the future of nutrition. It's about the industry interests that compromise transparency and confuse consumer choice. It's about the truth behind protein and the looming future of culture-grown, so-called clean meat. But most of all, this is a conversation about how to eat right, live well & be kind to yourself and the world we share. Podcast favorite Dan Buettner's better half (although Dan is a pretty good half himself), I adore Kathy and everything she is about. I sincerely hope you enjoy the exchange. For the visually inclines, you can watch the podcast on YouTube here. Peace + Plants, Rich

Quick announcement before we get into it. I am very excited to announce that Julie and I have a brand new cookbook coming out April 24th. It's called The Plant Power Way Italia. We're very proud of it. If you enjoyed our first book, The Plant Power Way, I think you're going to freak for this one. It's inspired by our retreats in Tuscany and the cuisine of the Italian countryside. It's super next level, incredible photography, 125 entirely new, and of course, delicious plant-based Italian countryside. It's super next level, incredible photography, 125 entirely new, and of course, delicious plant-based Italian recipes. And it's available for pre-order now

from all your favorite online booksellers. You can learn more at richroll.com. Pre-orders are very important to the book's viability. And so it would mean a great deal to us if you reserved your copy today. Thank you so much. I greatly appreciate it. And now on to the show. You want to think about what comes along with that protein. There's lots of things that have protein.

Yes, chicken has a lot of protein. Fish has a lot of protein. Beef has a lot of protein. But what comes along with it? You want to ask yourself, is there cholesterol that comes along with this protein? Is there a lot of saturated fat? Are there drug residues? Are there pathogens like E. coli, salmonella? Is the protein inflammatory to my body? And what does the raising and processing of this protein do to the land and to the water

and to climate change? So these are all questions that we address in the book. That's Kathy Freston, and this is The Rich Roll Podcast. The Rich Roll Podcast. These days, it seems everywhere you turn, the conversation around food is all about protein, protein, protein, protein. Every food label proudly emblazoned with how much protein it contains, as if we're in the midst of some kind of protein shortage, with the implicit message that more protein must be better and that the only viable source of protein is animal products. But is this true? How much protein do we actually need to be healthy, strong, fit, energetic, and mentally sharp?

And does it matter if we get it from plants rather than animals? My name is Rich Roll, and today we explore the myths, the truths, and the half-truths when it comes to this hotly debated macronutrient with my friend Kathy Freston, who is returning to the show for her second appearance. Our first conversation was back in the fall of 2014, episode 109. For those unfamiliar, Kathy is a wellness activist and four-time New York Times bestselling author, whose books include The Lean, Veganist, Quantum Wellness. And her newest offering, which she co-authored with former podcast guest Bruce Friedrich, that was episode 286, check that out if you missed it, is entitled Clean Protein.

And as you might have guessed, this is the focus of today's conversation. Kathy is a bit of a media darling, deservedly so. She seems to show up basically everywhere. She's been on the Oprah Winfrey Show, which inspired the great Ms. Winfrey herself and her entire staff to go totally vegan for 21 days. She's also appeared on Ellen, Dr. Oz, The View, Good Morning America, Charlie Rose, The Martha Stewart Show, and Extra. Her work has been featured notably in Vanity Fair, Harper's Bazaar, Self, and W.

And there's a few more thoughts I want to share about this conversation before we dive in. But first. Okay, Kathy Freston. I adore this woman. She's my friend. She's also podcast favorite Dan Buettner's better half, although Dan makes for a pretty great half himself. And this is, of course, a conversation about nutrition.

It's about the industry interests that compromise transparency and consumer information. It's about eating right, living well, and being kind to yourself. So let's do this thing. and being kind to yourself. So let's do this thing. You are rocking this podcast, man. It's amazing. Well, thanks for coming by.

Yeah. I appreciate it. You were one of the early guests on the show. I don't know what number it was, but it was like way back in the day. Way back in the day. And you like took off right away i mean it wasn't you just like soared right away it's cool here actually maybe turn that up a little bit so you're

speaking into it that's cool yeah perfect and i've had your lovely bow on twice yeah so you were due to come back and share with me congrats on the new book thank you your 5 Your 5,000th new book. 5,000th book. I told Dan, let's just take a little breather and sit out on the balcony and drink wine and not write for about a year. Well, you're going to Switzerland next week, right? Yeah. So that's cool. Except Dan has to work, right? He's speaking at Davos. Yeah, he's speaking at Davos. That's crazy. On happiness. That's a pretty powerful situation. Isn't it?'t it yeah i know i'm nervous for him but he's he's such a great speaker you know does he get nervous when he speaks he doesn't look like it he looks like he just he he looks like he's winging it and having a great time

and he just nails it every time yeah he practices a lot he uh he goes over his notes a lot so he takes it seriously but then once he's on, he doesn't get nervous. Right. You can tell. Yeah. He's a pro. Well, he's, I think he's born to do that. He loves like, if you ever come to our house for dinner,

he's the one who will immediately stand up in a chair and give a toast. You know, I've seen that. Actually, you know that. He knows how to hold court. He does. He holds court. He should be giving speeches. And we're all happy for him to do it.

Yeah, totally. I'm like, do it. I'll be the one on the sideline clapping. Well, cool. It's great to have you here. I want to hear a little bit about what's going on in Santa Barbara because we've had these crazy mudslides. I know you're a little bit out of the orbit of where the real damage is happening, but

what's it like to be there and see firsthand the devastation? It is a shock to the soul to see this stuff manifest right in front of you. You're used to reading the paper and seeing things happen in the hills of Guatemala or rural China. And to know that there's a mudslide happening in your town that just sucks people out of their houses and has killed, I think the count so far is 20 people. It's just- That's crazy. So horrible. That's got to be the highest priced real estate in almost the world, that area. By the way, I don't live in Montecito. I live-

You live on the hillside, like more in downtown Santa Barbara. Yeah. Exactly. We're more downtown. But we have friends who live in Montecito who've lost their homes and who have five feet of mud in their houses. And it just got real. And it's because the fire, which was the biggest fire, the Thomas fire, the biggest fire in California history, happened in December. We never had fires in December. Fire season is the summertime. And so to have a December fire, to have that kind of heat and dry and wind in December and have a fire like that, and then coming close on the heels with all that rain. Right.

It was just total. It's all just on top. So ready to slide down the hill. Yeah. It's so crazy. And your friend Oprah, like basically opened up her home to become like this staging area, right? As Oprah does. Only Oprah. She does, you know, and Ellen is up there. That's right.

And they've been so hospitable to the first responders. Everybody's just, the whole town has just come out with open arms and open hearts and how to help. But it's just stunning. You really, you don't get it until you see it. I mean, they're talking about cholera because there's so much raw sewage and rotting bodies. You know, there are animals that you forget that there are animal casualties as well. And so all of this is sort of rotting and decaying in the mud and poses a real continuing threat. It's like a crazy third world problem.

Yeah. In Montecito and, you know, California. It doesn't seem possible. I problem. Yeah. In Montecito. In California. It doesn't seem possible. I know. But you know what? Doesn't it appear that things that were never possible before are happening more and more? I would say that's an understatement. Yeah.

I mean, the floods. You hear from a real estate agent, oh, don't worry about that hill. It would take a 500-year flood to really. That's if that person wouldn't know. Yeah. And it's like those 500-year floods, those 100-year fires, they're happening sort of on a yearly basis now. And the chickens are coming home to roost, as it were. Well, it's crazy times.

You know, I always, you know, there's that kind of running joke on Twitter where somebody will say, remember that thing? You know, and cite some insane event that occurred in current events and say, yeah, that was earlier this week. You know, because we just like crazy stuff happens, we move on, the news cycle moves on, and then we're on to the next, you know, banana event. We don't have time to digest it. I mean, I remember I was in a crazy relationship, just like insane relationship many, many, many years ago. And I remember while I was in it thinking, I don't even have time to digest what's going on

on a daily basis because it's just such a shock to my, you know, my soul, my heart. And it takes years to just digest one of these events. And like you said, now in current events, that what's happening topically, it's like day after day after day, you just like, you can't digest it all. I know the acceleration of it is just,

we're not wired for that, I don't think. No, we're not. And yet, here it is. So we have to wire ourselves. It's showing no signs of slowing down either. I mean, I tweeted the other day, like, remember that whole UFO thing? Remember? That's right.

Shouldn't we be talking about that a little bit more? That's kind of major. Like, in any other time, we would be like, hold on. Like, stop the presses. I know. These pilots saw what they believe to be a ufo these guys with like 19 years of flying experience and we're just like okay well that was yesterday you know because something more serious and more insane like nuclear war i don't

know right comes up yeah then the thing in hawaii you know yeah it's like i know i know all right well we have the veganist here the original vegan veganist. So we're going to talk about that kind of stuff. I love the new book. It's great. I think it's timely. And it kind of hits, the way I thought of it is, it really canvases like all the major issues. It's almost like this synthesis of a lot of the works that are currently out there, including I had Paul Shapiro in here a couple of weeks ago. You know, his book has a lot of similarities to your book, Clean Protein, but you also hit on the issues that Garth hits on in Proteinaholic and you cover the environmental concerns of cowspiracy and the health concerns of

how not to die and the works of, you know, Bernard and what the health and you kind of compartmentalize it and take, you know, put it all together in this one book that's very digestible, easy to read and provide you with, you know, a really practical, easy to follow roadmap for making these changes in your own life that will improve your health and, and, you know, are in the best interest of our planet at large. Thank you. That's a great summary. Thank you very much. How has the book tour been? The book tour has been great. I mean, it's a fun thing to talk about protein because it's a national obsession, you know, so as soon as someone knows you've written about protein, they have a bunch of questions or they have a bunch of comments or stories of what they've been through or, you know, when they shift. And, and so this is really, um, this is kind of a,

it's a buzzy conversation that is, I think, timely, but what with clean meat and with, you know, just all the different kinds of alternative meats and just with the blue zone stuff. So there's so many different kinds of proteins and so many questions around it. So it's been a really fun experience. So let's define clean protein. Yeah. What is clean protein? So protein comes in a package. It's like Harvard calls that a protein package. So you want to think about what comes along with that protein. There's lots of things that have protein. Yes. Chicken has a lot of protein. Fish has a lot of protein. Beef has a lot of protein. But what comes along with it is you want to ask yourself, is there cholesterol that comes along

with this protein? Is there a lot of saturated fat? Are there drug residues? Are there pathogens like E. coli, salmonella? Is the protein inflammatory to my body? And what does the raising and processing of this protein do to the land and to the water and to climate change? So these are all questions that we address in the book. And we talk about moving toward clean protein in a lot of the ways that people have moved toward clean energy. As a culture, we're pivoting toward clean energy because of a bunch of problems, land degradation, climate change, all that stuff that comes along with energy, oil, gas, things like that. So in the energy sector, we're moving hopefully more and more toward wind and solar.

And in protein, it's the same thing. If we want to sustain our life on Earth, we have to pivot away from the way we are producing protein now toward a cleaner way. Couldn't agree with you more. The protein obsession thing a cleaner way. Couldn't agree with you more. The protein obsession thing is quite something. It's certainly real.

And it's kind of interesting how you track like where this all comes from. Like, how did we become so obsessed with protein and what is that all about? But before, and I wanna hear about that before we even get into that though, I think it's sort of important to even talk about what protein is. You know, our mutual friend, Ray Cronice, who you talk about in the book, you know, he said, he sort of famously said, like, I wish that, I wish that word didn't even exist because it causes so much confusion.

Certainly protein is a important macronutrient. We need it to live. It's important for a million different reasons, but it creates so much confusion because it's such a loaded term. So when we're talking about protein, we're really talking about an assemblage of amino acids, right? 20 amino acids, nine of which, the essential amino acids, are amino acids that our bodies cannot synthesize on their own, and thus we must get from our food. But instead of talking about protein, we should be talking about like how are we getting all of these amino acids, right? I mean, how do you think about it and talk about it? Well, we talk about it, you know, I think people are worried, oh my God,

I'm not going to get a complete protein if I'm just eating beans or if I'm just eating vegetables. Explain what a complete protein is. A complete protein is having all those amino acids. So your body needs all those amino acids to function properly. But the good news is everything in the vegetable kingdom, you know, beans, grains, vegetables, those amino acids are everywhere, scattered throughout all the foods that grow in the ground or on trees. Maybe not all of them in every single food. But if you are eating things, a diverse diet over the course of a day, a few days,

even a week, you're having, you know, oatmeal for breakfast, you're having a, you know, lentil soup for lunch, you're getting all the amino acids you need. So I think a lot of people are really concerned that they're not going to get a complete protein and they have to be very careful about food combining. And that myth has been debunked. You don't really have to worry about that. Right. That idea that animal protein, well, let's talk about this a little bit more in depth. The idea that animal protein is a superior protein for many reasons, one of which being that it is complete. And protein derived from plants, vegetable protein, is inferior, A, because it's incomplete, and also there's this sense or idea that how we digest these proteins and then assemble

them or put them to use in our bodies is somehow different based upon the source. So what did you learn in your exploration into this world of protein on that subject? Yeah. Like for instance, beans are harder, you know, you're not going to get, you're not going to be able to use, readily use the protein as much if you soak them or sprout them. It's more... The bioavail sprout them it's the bioavailability yeah the bioavailability um is better when you sprout or soak them but you get everything that you need and and as an athlete you must know it's like you you eat a ton of food it's like you eat giant plates of you know hearty whole grains and beans and vegetables and things like that.

So you're getting a lot of it and your body ends up getting what it needs. It's just like the air you breathe. You don't have to worry about how am I going to get the correct oxygen? You know, if you're athletic or if you're very active, you're breathing deeply or, you know, you're going to take in as much as you need. Your body does that. Right. That's certainly been my experience, you know, as somebody who's been eating this way for over 10 years at this point, like the idea of building lean muscle mass of, you know, my body repairing itself in an expedited manner to, you know, train as hard as I train. It's just never been an issue. You know, and I think there's this myth and this idea that, you know, if you're an athlete, you need more and that more is better. You know,

the recommended daily allowance, as you point out in the book, is about 0.8 grams per kilogram of body weight, right? So in my case, that balances out to about, I don't know, somewhere like around 70, 75 grams of protein a day. And I don't really count. But when I do pay attention to those sorts of things, I probably come in below that. And I've read that the World Health Organization actually estimates it much lower. Much lower. Yeah, I think they're being cautious when they're saying that. And they're kind of bowing to, you know, some concerns that people

have. But no, you really don't need as much as you think you need. On average, probably, you know, 48 grams for women, 52, 54 grams for men. But depending on how athletic you are, how active you are, you easily get that without even trying, you easily get that kind of protein. So is there any studies or indication that you need more? I think if you're a pregnant woman, you probably need a little bit more. What about for kids, a lot of people who are interested in adopting a plant based diet or going plant based, like they worry about their growing children. Yeah. And I understand that, like, I'm sympathetic to that. You know, it's easy to just kind of do what everyone, there's comfort in numbers, right? So it's just

like, well, that seems risky. You know, everyone else is doing it this way, you know, just to be safe. Like I'm going to make sure that they have eggs or whatever, because I don't want to step outside that paradigm. And then if something goes wrong, I'm the one who's, you know, to blame for that. And I can understand that fear. So, you know, I know that I know a zillion kids who have been raised vegan plant-based since day one, and they're all thriving and fine. So I understand the mythical aspect of that. But I'm sympathetic to the concern of the average parents.

For sure. And that's why you want to talk to a doctor who's up on all the studies and who is not against this way of eating, but like Dr. Spock in his seventh edition and talks about- Dr. Spock. I know you saw that. I was like, is that guy still alive? He's not, but that was the final edition that he gave his approval to. And he said, it's so healthy for kids to eat a purely plant-based diet. And certainly Joel Fuhrman talks about this, Dr. Joel Fuhrman. And no, the research said even the dietary guidelines, which is so tilted toward the

industry and meat and everything, even they said pregnant women, nursing mothers, children of all ages, it's totally fine to be plant-based. And by the way, the book isn't really a book about veganism or being plant-based or anything like that. It's really dissecting what kinds of issues come along with protein so that the reader can make their own decision about what kind of protein they want to opt for. Obviously, we end up in the place that plant protein is healthier, you know, not only for you, but for the land, the water, the climate, everything. But yeah, I think that the paradigm has to shift. I think when we look at how we're raising our kids now,

kids are more overweight and even obese than ever. I mean, childhood, kids are getting type 2 diabetes. It's insane. It used to be called adult onset diabetes. And now it's like kids are getting type 2 diabetes at a very young age and that is just it's wrought with so many problems you know that go along with that and um so i think it's time to change the paradigm i think it's a it's great like do we want to keep raising our kids the way they have historically been raised so that they get addicted to this fatty taste, this very rich flavor of dairy and meat and stuff like that. I think it's a good thing that we're shaking things

up. Well, we have to, you know, we're facing this insane, you know, obesity crisis. Like you said, heart disease rates are through the roof. One out of every three people dies of heart disease. the roof. One out of every three people dies of heart disease. Diabetes by 2050, something like 30% of Americans will be diabetic or pre-diabetic type two. These are the epidemics of our time. You know, it's absolute insanity. And it's the food. And when we look at the food, you know, the biggest culprits, we have, you know, the animal products, we have the processed foods, we have the sugary foods, all of that. It's all bad. And we need to innovate ways of creating healthy foods that are palatable for people and are also kinder on, you know, on our planet and its precious dwindling resources. So if you've seen Cowspiracy, you understand what goes into generating these foods that we're obsessed with, and I would go so far as to say

addicted to, and it's just not sustainable by any stretch of the imagination. And grass-fed's not going to cut it in terms of saving the planet. We need a new way forward. And the way forward is right in front of our faces. It's eating plant-based. And it is the, for those that aren't ready to make that leap, it is the innovations that we're seeing in this cultured meat world that is rapidly descending upon us and very interesting. And it's so exciting to see these new innovations, you know, with clean meat, growing meat for cells from, you know, so it's real animal flesh and sort of like a, what will be a brewery kind of a thing. But also the meat alternatives. And I'm a big fan of that. I'm not a purist. And I know a lot of people who are into super healthy ways of eating are kind of

anti veggie burger, sausage, meat crumbles, stuff like that. I'm a fan because they are far cleaner than the animal based versions of the burger or sausage or chicken patty. So even though it's not as healthy as a bowl of rice and beans and kale, you're having sausage that has no cholesterol, that has very little saturated fat, that has no salmonella or E. coli or drug residues. It does not cause environmental havoc and it didn't cause any suffering. And they're getting better at making them taste good. Yeah, they're so good. Oh, my God. The Beyond Burger is beyond yeah i mean and i enjoy these things from time to time like i am one of

those more purist people you're a super athlete i mean but but i but i recognize their importance and i think that they have a very you know very uh you know strong legitimate yeah place in this discussion because i don't know, what are the statistics, like how many people in the world are vegan? Like, I don't know, 2% maybe? I mean, if that, you know, it's got to be really small. And I think, you know, this idea that we're all going to be struck vegan out of the generosity of our hearts, or, you know, even in the interest of our own personal health is just, it's a pipe dream. You know, I wish that that would happen. And, and I advocate for people to

think along those lines, but I also recognize the reality of the world that we're in and the ticking clock, you know, it's like, we need, we don't have enough time to wage that war. We need to be able to provide people with super tasty alternatives that are more environmentally sustainable, better for our health and the like. And they have to taste just as good, if not better than what's available or the war is lost. That's right. And I think it was Victor Hugo who said, perfection is the enemy of the good. And I think a lot of people are perfectionists. They want to be super healthy and pure. And that's just asking a lot for a lot of people who are just not interested in that.

I'm from a small town in Georgia, Doraville, Georgia. Doraville. Doraville. You know, like that, I think it's Atlanta Rhythms section, that song, Doraville, touch country in the city, Doraville. That's where I'm from. Not a lot of vegans there. No, not a lot of vegans there. Still not a lot of vegans there. And so I went down and picked up my mom in Florida. She lives outside of Daytona and we drove up to Atlanta. So it's about a seven hour drive. And so I really got a reminder, you know, of how hard it is to eat healthy in a lot of the country, in a lot of the world. You know,

we're lucky because we live in a big city and there's lots of options and we're around people who are curious and entrepreneurs who are providing and everything. But in a lot of places, they have McDonald's and Denny's and Taco Bell and that's it. And then they're doing their grocery shopping. So I'm all for Kroger's carrying veggie burgers and veggie sausage and, you know, going to Taco Bell for a bean taco. You know, we have to look for the better, you know, and not hold out for perfection and encourage people to just sort of lean forward. Yeah. And Walmart and Costco are the two biggest organic retailers in the world. I don't know, in America, you know, them together. And so

I think I agree with that. I think, you know, a couple observations. First, we need to celebrate the small victories within the system. I think the idea that you want to, you're going to be this, you know, punk rocker who's going to just, you know, want to blow up the system. And anybody who has anything to do with McDonald's is an evil person. It's like you've got to disrupt from within. I've often said if a McDonald's asked me to come and speak, I would do that in a second. You need to get these people to understand what the future is about

and that it's in their best interest to get on board with this plant-based movement because that's where we're headed. And it makes economic capitalist sense for them to do so because this is the shifting appetite of the millennials as they grow. Young people, they have a whole different view on this whole thing. They're far more evolved than our generation when it comes to this stuff. We're attached to our ways. I think that's a natural thing that we grew up with certain foods and we are, you know, we are attached to the way we think.

And millennials, they're in Generation Z. I mean, they're kind of seeing climate change. They're seeing their parents getting sick or their grandparents getting sick. So, yeah. And their classmates. Yeah, that's right. That's right. And they're seeing, they're also, they've been raised on the internet and they have an inherent expectation of transparency that we weren't really raised on. Like, wait, you mean like we can't see like how that was made and they're not going to tell us like that doesn't sound right.

Yeah. You know, whereas to us, it's just like, well, that's the way, you know, that's the way it is. You know what I mean? And I think on this other point of view, you know, kind of going back to your hometown is this idea of, you know, you're getting outside your bubble. Right. And as much as I like to think that I'm a broad thinker and I'm not just, you know, sort of in my bubble and I'm thinking about what the average person, you know, has to contend with. Like, we're in a huge bubble here, you know? And it's funny, like, when I go outside it and I'm like, oh yeah, like, wait, people still do that? They still eat that way? It's like, oh yeah. You know, like, I have to be reminded,

just in an airport, when you see the line at McDonald's versus, you know, the line at, well, American Airlines terminal at LAX, they have the Real Food Daily. Yeah. Nobody's in line there. Everybody's at McDonald's or whatever. I'm like getting one of everything from my flight just because I can. Except it's so expensive. Yeah.

I went to get a burrito there and like one other thing and it was like $40. What? I was like, please. No, that doesn't work. No, seriously? Yeah, it was crazy. Oh, that's wild. I think the bottled water that I got with it was like $9.

But that's just the airport. I know it's the airport. Yeah. But that's not helping the problem, you know what I mean? Well, McDonald's is so artificially cheap. I mean, and it's just such a hit on the taste buds that people just love it, you know? a hit on the taste buds that people just love it, you know? Well, I think that, you know, on this issue of the bubble, you know, that's why I feel so strongly about doing this podcast and trying to put the best show out there because it's

able to reach people who live in places like that small town, you know, and who don't have access to these kinds of ideas, or it's just not part of the daily conversation. And they get to participate in that and kind of expand their horizons by virtue of what the internet has to offer. And feel like they're part of a community. I think that's the great thing that you've created, is you've created a community. I mean, everywhere I go, people say, oh, yeah, I heard you on the Ritual podcast. It's like, forget about I saw you on Ellen, but I heard you on the Ritual podcast. You've got this great community of

people who feel like they're not alone. They're not isolated. They are with and among other people who are wanting to grow, wanting to expand their circle of care and concern. They want to do better for their bodies. They're creating the conversation. So you kick off all these conversations in, you know, first this online community, this podcast community you've got, but then people take it back into their families. They talk to their friends about it and it makes, it's a ripple effect. It's really true. You know, you're dropping the stone in the pond

and it's rippling out there. So it's funny because I don't, I mean, I get that when I travel and I interact with people and I get outside of LA, but you know, I'm just here doing my thing and I see the numbers and I'm like, oh wow, a lot of people are listening to this. But that's just an abstract concept

until I actually go out, I travel somewhere to give a talk and then I get to actually meet people. And people are coming out in droves. It's meaningful. It's meaningful to me personally. And it's so great that it's able to have that kind of impact on other people.

Huge impact, huge. And I think so much of it is that people don't want to feel socially isolated. You know, this appeals to them. And it strikes, you know, some sort of recognition like this is right. And I'm not crazy. I'm not a weirdo. I'm not like a radical person who's, you know, a an ideologue or whatever I have all these other people who are thinking like me who have curiosity like me who want to do more for my body want to do more for the planet like I actually really care and by the way I'm not a tree-hugging animal loving no you're not

a hippie I'm not a hippie I mean I I'm not a hippie. I mean, I lived in Woodstock. Did you? I did. I used to live in Woodstock. So I've got the hippie in me a teeny tiny bit. But when I moved to California, I had a girlfriend of mine. A stiletto hippie. Well, I had this friend. She walked into my closet.

I had an apartment. And she said, show me your shoes. And I had three pairs of shoes. I had a pair of Doc Martens and a pair of Birkenstocks and like a pair of, I don't know, some kind of little black boot or something. This must have been a very long time ago. She was like, girl, I am taking you shopping. These shoes have got to go.

You live in LA now. And I was like, but I'm comfortable. They're so comfortable. And that's what we wore in Woodstock. I never thought about it. But yeah, I had to change up my game a little bit. Yeah, I have a hard time seeing that. That's not part of the mental image.

I will show you pictures, Rich. You guys come over one night. I'll whip out the photo albums and you will see. I was a bona fide hippie. I'm good at adapting. I'm good at adapting. On this subject of protein, the number one question, obviously, for anybody is, you know, where you get your protein. Oh, you're going to go plant-based?

Where are you going to get your protein? You can't get your protein, right? And kind of baked into that is this idea that plants don't have protein, that, you know, you're going to somehow wither and die. And what I'm interested in is what you found out in the process of writing this book about how we got to this place where that myth became the predominant sort of conventional wisdom about food, because it didn't just happen out of the blue. Like there are vested interests that benefit from us believing this. Yeah. Well, you hit the nail on the head.

It's vested interest. I mean, there's an industry that is producing a product. And in order to sell that product, they have to sell a story. And the story is that you need this product. And that product is animal protein. It's animal foods. story is that you need this product and that product is animal protein it's animal foods so there's a whole industry that markets this um product called animal food and it there's a checkoff program where they take you know maybe five dollars off the head of every animal every

cow that's sold and they have to plow that back into the marketing of this product. And that's like a government program. It's mandated. You have to do that as a producer. And to put a pin in that just for a quick moment, when I had Neil Barnard on the podcast, he told a story just to kind of illustrate the Cheoff program, that that's why you see these ads for, like, I don't know if this is specifically correct, but like Pizza Hut with the cheese in the crust or, you know, the Taco Bell burrito that has the super duper extra cheese or whatever.

It's because there are actually government checkoff dollars that are being funneled towards these advertising agencies and these corporations to market these food products. So the government is actually in bed with the fast food industry, the animal agriculture industry to push these products. And there's no uncertain terms about it. And that makes you just kind of wake up and say, wow, there's no one really advocating for me. You know, it's not the government. They're not advocating for me. I have to advocate for myself. I have to dig and figure out what is right, what seems right.

And that's another thing they do is they fund, quote, unquote, science, you know, studies, so that the studies show what they want it to show. And I'm sure, you know, you've seen like studies, you can make it come out a lot of different ways, depending on how you sort of structure it and, you know, talk about it. And so that the results get so confusing. So the person who wants to understand about how much protein they need, or what, you know, what they're missing, or is it safe or whatever, there's a lot of shoddy science out there. But there's also a lot of half right science. And that's the most confusing is when there's a kernel of truth. And so you say, Oh, yeah, that's true. I know that to be true, because I read that

somewhere else. But then the rest of it is kind of wonky. So it's just enough to muddy the waters and confuse the consumer so that the consumer says, moderation. It's also confusing. One week they tell you one thing, another week they tell you something else. I'm watching these medical shows,

I'm reading all this stuff and it's just so confusing. So moderation. I'm just going to eat the way that I grew up eating. And that's a slippery slope, because moderation means different things to different people. And, you know, certain kinds of foods are addictive. I wonder if somebody in, if somebody in like 1974, who was like going vegan, you know, making that radical leap, because that would be kind of radical back then, if the response would be, where do you

get your protein? Like, I don't know that that would be the reaction because the culture was different back then. They might've thought like, oh, you're going to be malnourished or you're going to be weak, but it wouldn't be where are you going to get your protein? Like that's a newer concept. week, but it wouldn't be where you're going to get your protein. Like that's a newer concept. And, you know, it's interesting to kind of track back like how we got to that.

Isn't it brilliant? They did such a good job. Well, I think it's, I mean, I don't know this for a fact and you certainly, you and Bruce, you know, we should mention. Oh, my brilliant co-author, Bruce Friedrich. Yeah, who's been on the podcast, who I'm going to have on again, who's, you know, so eloquent and intelligent about all these matters. Damn smart. Yeah. Damn smart.

You know, I think my sense is that this all kind of came online in a big way with the explosion of like bodybuilding culture and Arnold Schwarzenegger. with the explosion of like bodybuilding culture and Arnold Schwarzenegger. And when these bodybuilders in Venice Beach started to try to gorge on protein and they were the first ones to kind of take, to figure out what whey was, to go to these cheese producers and get that extract and like make these supplemental nutritional products

out of what was essentially being thrown out. The waste. Yeah, it was the waste. Yeah. And using like these acids to extract these curds to create this high protein content food, which at the time tasted terrible. And then you would see,

then there was these documentaries and you'd see these huge guys and they're doing these shakes. And that kind of created a whole industry when the dairy industry realized, oh, all this stuff we're throwing out, like we can make billions of dollars by reframing the discussion around what this is and convincing people that this is an elixir of health. And I think that was the birth of like, that was sort of the genesis of how we started to walk this path

towards this obsession with protein and this idea that more is better and that we need, you know, more than we think we need. And only to wake up to now you go to the grocery store and every food label has emblazoned on the front of it and giant, you know, bold font, you know, how many grams of protein every product has. And the implicit message behind that is that you need more. Right. It is the group think. It is in the zeitgeist. And I think that that's kind of where we have to meet people because that is an obsession. So some people have said to me, Kathy, why are you even talking about protein? You just underscore, you know, that it's a real thing that we should be thinking about. And it's not something...

Because that's what people want to know. And that's the thing. That's what people are talking about. That's what they want to know. So I think we kind of have to meet the discussion where it is and respectfully address it, you know, respectfully answer all those concerned questions, because it's a real i know when i was switching i was like oh my god what am i going to do for calcium you know and am i going to get enough iron and um where do i get my protein that that i wasn't trying to be obnoxious i was really concerned because you know a doctor had said something to me my mother mother was very concerned. Friends were sort of lecturing me about the mistake that I was making. So I was asking these questions in earnest.

And I think that it's tempting to sort of laugh it off with a joke and say, oh, I eat children to get my protein. But it's not funny to people. And it's not helpful. I mean, it's a real concern. And there's also, I think there's like, what's the word? It's not a placebo, but if someone is moving away from animal protein and they're not eating well, if they're tired or they're sick or they're going to blame it on protein. Right. That'll be the first thing they're going to. Yeah. So I think it's actually really important that we talk about this and we talk about it a lot because there's a lot to counter. There's a lot of...

So when someone asks you, where do you get your protein? What do you say? Do you have a canned response or do you take that on a case-by-case basis, depending on who you're talking to? Depending on who I'm talking to, but the truth is pretty much always the truth. And I'm a big Beans fan. My partner is Stan Buechner. He's the founder of Blue Zones, which is a study of populations around the world where people live the longest and are the healthiest. Everybody listening knows who Dan is.

He's well. I just love singing his praises. He's so brilliant. And so I'm with like, he is dreamy. And you know what the best part about him is, is that he makes the best damn beans you've ever had in your life. This man has recipes from all over the world on how to make beans taste good. So, and he says that the single best thing you can do for your health and to promote longevity is to add in at least a cup of beans a day. So I'm a big fan of beans, you know, lentils, one cup of lentils, which is like

an inch basically in a measuring cup, has 18 grams of protein. And one egg only has six grams of protein. And most people eat eggs because they're thinking, oh, I need my protein. But there's not a lot of protein there. There's roughly half in the yolk and half is in the white. So with one cup of lentils, you're getting 18 grams, plus you're getting tons of healthy fiber and iron and antioxidants and, and you're feeling full because of all the fiber and you're not getting all that cholesterol. So it's just a matter of, you know, talking about where

we get our protein. So I, that's my favorite. I eat hummus for a snack, you know, at the end of the day. Dan is big on wine at five or six, whatever. And we have a little hummus and crackers and I have, you know, lentil soup and crusty bread for lunch or, you know, black bean burger, whatever. I just, I just love beans. That's my favorite source of protein. Yeah. Well, that's a great response and that's sounds delicious. I would like to come over to our house. Dan will cook you something else. Yes, exactly. That's my favorite. But the kind of truth behind it is that it's, it is a red herring because if you're just eating, if you're like, okay, let's presume you're not just eating processed crap, because if you're just eating, if you're like, okay, let's presume you're not

just eating processed crap, but if you're just eating like random plant foods throughout the day mindlessly without even really paying attention, a couple of bananas, some, whatever, like it's a non-issue. You will meet your protein needs. You will get all those amino acids that you're worried about will be taken care of. Right. So the real thing, and you talk about this in the book, and I've said it many times before, um, the thing that we need to be sort of focused on, or we need to kind of shift this discussion towards and is away from this issue of protein and onto fiber, because people are not protein deficient. They're eating too much protein.

They're probably eating two to three times as much protein as they need. And those are the sedentary people. But I don't know what the percentage is. Maybe you know, most people are fiber deficient. They're not eating any fiber. 90% of Americans do not get enough fiber. Is it 90? Yeah. And fiber, that's the question we should be asking each other, not where are you getting your protein, but where are you getting your fiber? Are you getting enough fiber? What are your sources of fiber? People don't like that

question. They don't want to talk about that. I know. But that's the thing we should be asking each other is, are you sure you're getting enough fiber? Because fiber is like this miracle component of food. And it acts like a scrub brush, as you know, going through the body, cleaning out all the gunk and toxicity. And it keeps you feeling full so you're not overeating with other foods. And it disperses the blood sugar, the glucose throughout the day very steadily and slowly. And so your blood sugar is good and

it's associated with lower incidences of heart disease and type 2 diabetes and cancer all kinds of things so the fact that most americans aren't getting enough fiber that's a real problem and interestingly um plant foods all plant foods have fiber lots of fiber fibers like bones are to animals humans like our bones you know hold everything together so fiber is like a plant's bones and so everything in the plant kingdom has fiber and nothing in the plant kingdom has cholesterol. And then if you look in the other column, you look at animal protein has zero fiber, zilch, zero, nada, nothing. And it has lots of cholesterol and lots of saturated fat. So you look at these two things and you think, hmm, what's my protein package?

On one side, it's lots of fiber, none of the problems. And on the other side, it's no fiber and a lot of issues that come along with it. So you want to move away from the old sources of protein, which is animal, and toward clean protein, which tends to be plant-based. And how do you talk about organic versus non-organic? You know, that's not the prime issue for me. It's not the prime issue for the book,

just because a lot of people, I don't always have access to organic. And, you know, certainly in parts of the country, if you're only 7-Eleven is your local grocery store and Denny's. So you don't always have access or you can't always afford it. But certainly if you can afford it, definitely. And stay away from the dirty dozen that you definitely don't want to eat. definitely don't want to eat. Right. The Dirty Dozen is the environmental working group's annual list of the plant foods that are the ones you should definitely stay away from in terms of being conventionally grown versus organic. Like strawberries, man. They wear a hazmat suit. You know, if those strawberries are not organic, it's like really toxic. So if I'm out, I would not eat inorganic strawberries. I would

just opt out of them. But I don't worry too much about that stuff. I think it's an exciting time right now. I think we can agree that this plant-based movement, this vegan movement has finally sort of reached that tipping point where it's part of the mainstream discourse and that's due in no small part to books like you've written and these documentaries that are sort of being released with you know increasing frequency that have people talking about these things but at the same time and i've talked about this before on the show there seems to be kind kind of a war for the hearts and minds of people right now. On one side, we have plant-based people like yourself and many of the doctors and nutritionists and dieticians that I've had on this program and athletes, et cetera. And on the other side,

we have this sort of ascendancy of the low-carb, high-fat slash ketosis. I don't know if you can totally align those two. They have differing points of view at certain points. But that seems to be very popular right now. And I would imagine just in your world and the circles that you kind of navigate through that you're hanging out with certain people that are on board with that right now. So when someone comes to you and says, oh, all this weight, or I'm doing ketosis,

or I'm all about that, how do you think about that and talk about that? Well, it breaks my heart, number one. And number two, I'm old enough and hopefully wise enough to know that I can never change anyone's mind. And so if someone is set on doing something or eating a certain way, it's not on me to try to change them. I think someone has to be curious from their own place. So it is really unfortunate that this paleo ketosis sort of thing is on the rise. But I get that people want to be fit and they they read certain science and it seems like it makes a lot of sense. Certainly I have brothers that are on that diet, you know. But I would say that wellness and well being and health is not a singular sector of the pie, which is our individual health. That's part of it. But it's

also the planet. It's also the climate. It's also our land and our water and our trees and our our natural preserve. So you want to look at your diet, your choices and determine how does that not only affect me, my body, so I can understand, you know, maybe for whatever reason you think that this is better for your body. Let's look at it and see how it does for the environment. let's look at animal agriculture if that's if that's really um what you want to eat let's look at see what it does and the science is pretty clear on that that the like there's a report called livestock's long shadow done undertaken by the united nations and they determined that livestock causes 18 of of all global warming gases, and it causes land degradation and sucks up all this water usage and creates these cesspools of problems that go out

into our food system and chops down rainforests so that, you know, grazing for cattle, which then releases all the climate change gases. It was revised to say, I think it caused 15% rather than 18%. But the World Bank says it caused 51% of all climate change gases. So that those are serious numbers. So that means that it causes more problem for the climate than all the transportation sources put together, all the trucks and cars and planes and everything. So you want to say, okay, let's look at something that's good for my body, that's good for the land, the water, the climate, and not to be too precious, but let's honor these other creatures on the planet, not to be too precious, but like, let's honor these other creatures on the planet, these animals,

you know, again, I did not grow up to be a touchy feely tree hugging animal lover. It's not like I popped out of the womb that way. But once you see how animals are treated, even in the best of circumstances, they cling to life, they do not want to die. They have bonds with their families. And it's just kind of disturbing. It's a shock to the conscience what's happening on a vast scale. And as countries get wealthier, like China and India, and they're seeking to eat like we eat, more protein, then it's pretty shocking what's happening. So we want to consider the whole picture, a holistic idea of health. And interestingly enough, plant-based sort of checks all those boxes. It definitely does. I'm interested in your level of optimism about people's inherent altruism. You know what I mean? Because I think there are certain people,

when they see the environmental implications of this, they're like, oh my God, this is, you know, I cannot abide. You know, I'm in. And other people are like, I just, you know, I'm just trying to pay the bills, man. You know, like, you know, whatever. Like, I can't be concerned with that. Well, your listeners are the former.

You know, your community is people who are thinking about it, who are altruistic to at least some extent, probably a lot, and who are very progressive citizens of this planet. But that's why I'm a big fan of alternative meats. And like, let's have McDonald's have a veggie burger. Let's do that. Let's get clean meat passed. let's, let's not fight against this stuff because that's progress. And a lot of people definitely just want something that tastes good and, uh, it's affordable, it's available and that's it. I know a lot of people like that myself, that's not going to change. So let's get those things out there. All those entrepreneurs who

are out there working on things, let's support them. Let's make it, let's, let's get those things out there, all those entrepreneurs who are out there working on things. Let's support them. Let's make it. Let's lift them up and not be so purist and perfectionist that we all have to eat absolutely perfectly organic and things that grow in the ground or on trees. Absolutely. Yeah. You know, I am shocked at my own evolution with this because I watched a video that I did. Like this was like maybe two years into being plant-based.

And PETA came to my house and Lisa Lange interviewed me for a little video that they did. And at that time, I was still somebody who, like my life had been changed dramatically by eating a plant-based diet, like 180 degree difference. Revolutionized, you know, how I felt, how my body performed. But I was still very much of the mind that this was just about me and my personal health. And I was starting to sense, you know, the power of advocating for this lifestyle on behalf of other people taking greater control of their own personal health. But the idea that, you know, that these decisions had environmental implications and that there were ethical considerations to be thought about,

it was just not part of, I wasn't comfortable going there yet. That wasn't like my thing. And now like that's a huge part of how I see all of it. But I wasn't ready to hear that then, even after being a couple of years into it, right? So I'm sensitive to people who are standing on the outside of it and how easily that door can get shut because people don't want to be preached to it

and want to hear about it. So on the one hand, it's like, hey man, you got to go on your own journey. Like let's support you on your journey. And then you have to balance that against this ticking clock that we're on. Like the mudslide, like everything that's going on right now,

there's a sense of urgency as well. So I don't know where I'm heading with that. It's just like. Well, we are. We're kind of at a fork in the road. And no pun intended, but we can definitely keep as a culture going the way that we're going and stay obsessed with protein and the climate keeps amping up. know we keep getting angrier and we keep getting fatter and sicker and it can go that way and i don't know how things turn out or we can go down another road and we talk about this in the book that you know if enough activists food activists wellness activists really get in there and empower entrepreneurs and support businesses and talk about this stuff and change the way schools are serving lunches to kids and we go and we talk to our employers

and ask for more options. We can change the culture. I mean, that's the way things happen, but it's kind of in our hands. It's literally in our hands. It's a fork. Yeah, there's no conspiracy to repress us. I think the market just responds to demand, and we have to shift demand. And that begins with our own personal choices and then how we kind of carry ourselves in the world. But I think we can all agree when we look at factory farming, that it's an abomination and the way these animals are treated is just abhorrent.

Like it's just, it's just, there's no ethical argument to be had. It's just, it's terrible across the board in every way, shape or form. And when you look at the dairy industry, you know, it was news to me. I had to learn that later, like how bad that is and how awful they treat these animals. Like nobody, we're all inherently compassionate people. And I think once you are exposed to that and you see it, you realize that, you know, that our actions have an impact on whether we perpetrate that system or we overcome it. And there's a numbness that is required, you know, to keep your eyes shut to that and your awareness away from that. Because it's, you know, 20 years ago, maybe you wouldn't really know how animals are treated. But now it's so we all have computers, we can all see stuff, we've seen things

on the news, you know. So there's a numbness, a shut down unconsciousness that is required to not feel this stuff. And that numbness goes across in every sector of our lives. So how fully are we living in any sector of our lives if we're shut down in one area? I think it creates a dissonance. in one area. I think it creates a dissonance. If you have some awareness, however conscious or unconscious that awareness is, and then to act in contradiction to that awareness creates an unhealthy dissonance in your body and in your mind and in your spirit. And that's a low-grade, unhealthy thing to walk around with. It sounds weird. I mean, it's kind of like a spiritual malady, I think. It is.

But when you develop that awareness and you align your actions with that more compassionate value that I think we all have inherently as part of who we are as human beings, there's kind of a lightness and a freedom that comes with that. And that's definitely been my experience. But I think the most common occurrence is the person who, the well-intentioned person who's like, okay, Kathy, I hear you. Like, I get it. Like, I'm gonna try. And then they try and life gets busy

and they fall off the wagon and then they beat themselves up because they know like, oh, I just, you know, I don't like the way those animals are treated or I know what it's doing to the planet and I don't feel good, but like, it's just too hard. Or the social, you know, kind of, I think it's the social structures that make it difficult for people.

Like, oh, I'm going out to dinner with my friends or I'm going to a party or I'm going to whatever. Like, they don't want to stick out like a sore thumb. They don't know how to navigate the social landmines that are part and parcel of trying to do something a little bit different than their peers. And that's something you talk about in the book. So, you know, how do you speak to that or try to help people figure out a strategy that allows them to, you know to adhere to this commitment that they've made to themselves without becoming like a social pariah. Yeah. Well, my favorite way of approaching anything is to lean into it and to just give yourself the space and time to just find your way.

Don't lean forever. Don't take forever to lean, But lean into it so that you find your way so you're not going to show up to a dinner or a holiday and starve. You want to just give yourself some time to figure things out like how do I prepare. We've got a lot of tips and tricks in the book and how to have a snack before you go out if you don't think your relatives are going to have anything or how to stop by the grocery store, bring some leftovers so that you can bring something to a dinner party or a holiday. So you, you feel like you're, you're part of everything. But I think you really hit on something that's very important and that is social isolation. You don't want to stick out like a pariah. You, you kind of want to be part of the community. like a pariah, you kind of want to be part of the community. Actually, I, you know, I grew up very attached to my traditions and my, you know, friends and community and stuff like that. But once I started learning about it, I was super excited. I didn't really care. I was very happy to

be an oddball and actually kind of proud of it. I'm like, Oh, my God, I love that I'm in on this early, you know, and it's still early. I mean, to be in on this now, you're still early. But, and I know, you know, people who have lots of resources and they still felt like they were isolated. So I think it's really important to get your community happening. And I think that's what you're doing. That's what Dan is doing with Blue Zones. I think it's what we do on Instagram and Facebook. And so you see that there are a whole lot of people who think this way, who want to make it happen so that you don't feel like you're an oddball. You definitely are out front. You're on the front curve of this movement, but you're still part of a community and you're

not alone. And then once you see all the great food and you start entertaining and you have friends over, I would say fully 75% of my friends are meat eaters. But when they come to my house, they have great food and they always return saying, you know what? I can do this. I can eat less, less meat. And that's how change happens because we normalize it. You know, people who are eating this way, we normalize it. That's why I'm, I'm, I kind of believe in the 2% rule. Like

if there's 2% of anything, just let it go. Don't be annoying. You know, if you're in a restaurant, you don't want to quiz the waiter. Are you sure? Are you absolutely sure there's no egg in this bread? You know, it's like you're not doing any favor to anyone. You're just making the whole plant-based thing seem stringent and annoying. Annoying. Yeah. So like go with it, do the best that you can and serve great food. And, and once you find some people to follow on Instagram and Facebook that they're posting great pictures of recipes. I know you guys have amazing cheeses at your house, and I love coming to your house. And I'm sure if people come to your house and have cheese and crackers, they're like, oh, my God, I can still have my cheese and crackers. I didn't realize that. Yeah, they're like, what? There's I can still have my cheese and crackers. I didn't realize that.

Yeah. They're like, what? There's no dare. They can't believe it. You know, they can't believe it. But in fairness, like everyone knows now, like everyone knows when they go to your house, you know, they're going to have a plant-based meal. Similarly at our house. I think somebody who's just beginning, I sort of analogize it to when you're newly sober, you're like, oh my God, I have to go to a wedding in six months. What am I going to do? What am I going to do? How am I going to go?

How am I going to go to a wedding or a rehearsal or a bachelor party or whatever, like whatever it is, right? Yeah. You future trip. Yeah. And you're like, that's impossible. I can't do it. So you don't, you either don't begin or you just get so caught up in this future event that hasn't even occurred that you talk yourself out of what you're capable of.

And I think it's very similar with this. Like, how am I going to go home for Thanksgiving or wedding or whatever it is? Because people really get uncomfortable with having to be that person who's sticking out. And they don't want to make a fuss or they just, I don't know, or they're like, I'm going to starve or whatever, whatever it is. Yeah. I just go and I bring, like for Thanksgiving, I bring some Beyond Meat or Gardein or something like that.

And I pop it in the oven wherever, whosever's, if I'm going to Dan's house or something like that, I'll just pop it in the oven. And I always bring more. I always bring more than just for me and just for Dan because inevitably people want to try it and then they love it. They fall in love with it. It happens every single time I bring stuff and it's like people will say, oh, wow, I didn't realize it tasted this good. And then they're going to fold it in to their diets. They're going to, because that's a doorway.

The doorway is tasting good, feeling part of things. And I can't tell you how many people say, if I knew I could eat this way, I'd eat it that way every day. If things tasted this good, I'd eat that way every day. And guess what? Things can taste that way every day and guess what things can taste that good every day so i think it also involves some kind of social strategies around how you talk about it and the kind of love that you carry you know with it into that environment because especially if it's family like it's loaded right like your mom always made this thing for Thanksgiving or Christmas or Easter or whatever holiday

or whatever you're just going home. And for you to bring something else in can be interpreted as a rejection of that person. Like you don't love me, you're rejecting me because you're rejecting my food, which seems insane, but that's a very real thing. Sure, for sure. And so I think you need to have strategies for approaching that so that there's communication,

like healthy communication, so that people aren't misinterpreting those social cues as that rejection and more about like, I'm just doing this for me or downplaying it like, hey, I just thought I'd, you know, like being low key about it or whatever. I think that in any situation you think, what would feel good to me? Like if someone were going to come to my house, like what would feel good to me? How would I talk to that? And I think that that's the way I talk to other people. So not judgmental, just really curious and just say, oh my God, I love your green beans so much. They're so good. I can't wait to pile on in that or your apple pie or whatever it is. And just say, you know, I just, just this I'm eating plant based these days. I don't want you to have to

waste a piece of fish or a steak on me. Um, so I'm going to bring my own, but I love, you know, just be complimentary and be open and curious. Can't wait to see you. Totally. And I tell you one thing I do these days is I don't bring wine or flowers anymore. I always bring my favorite plant-based food, plant-based proteins, because I think that's like an exposure.

I can't tell you how many people have walked through the grocery store because they're like, I don't know what to get. I mean, so bring them stuff. Like, this is what it looks like. You know, this is what the Beyond Burgers look like. This is what the Field Row sausages look like.

Here's a bag of lentils and a bunch of recipes. You know, here's my favorite cookbook or my favorite book. So these are ways of advocating in like a joyful way. You know, you're not pushing it down anyone's throat. But when you go to dinner, it's like, okay, I cooked this up and here's the recipe. I came from this book in case, in case you like it, you know? Yeah, it's cool. I like that. Let's talk about the, the clean meat stuff. Have you, have you tried like Memphis meats or any of these things? Would you try it? I haven't, but I sure would.

You would. Absolutely. Yeah, I would definitely have a meatball that's real meat. If it was clean meat and clean meat, you know, is meat that is real animal cells grown from the cells into real animal flesh, but no slaughter. So it is cruelty free, no environmental footprint, definitely not as healthy as lentils. I'm not saying it's healthy, but it's clean. And so it's clean on the conscience, of course, because the animals aren't hurt and it's clean on the

environment. So yeah, I would definitely have a meatball. Would you? I don't know. I don't know. You know, Paul Shapiro tried it. I mean, that guy's been like vegan vegetarian forever, right? He's like, but, you know, he's ready to book about it. He's going to try it, you know, ethical vegan vegetarian. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. It's a good question. I'm sure that eventuality will present itself. I would, I would. I mean, clearly like we're not the market for that. Like I actually got freaked out by the impossible burger. Like I don't taste it so much. I don't really like, I don't really like it. I think it's great that it exists. And I think that

it's an important product that be made available for people. But for me, it just weirded me out, you know? So like, yeah. And so I can't imagine what like a real meatball would be. And I think, you know, maybe just out of curiosity, I would, but it's not like, oh man, that's going to be my jam. You know, there's no way. Yeah. But man, it's a game changer. It is a game changer. When all these food suppliers are putting in hot pockets and they're supplying schools and fast food places, it's like when electricity was discovered or kerosene was discovered. Oh, we don't need whale oil anymore. And overnight, whale oil became obsolete. That's what's going to happen when this clean meat gets up to speed. There ain't going to be any need for animals. And that's going to be a game changer. Yeah, my hope is that we'll we'll look back on this era and think, you know, how about barbaric was that that we that we had this whole system set up to raise these animals and

torture them and the impact that that had on the planet and the environment. And, you know, it just didn't, it doesn't make sense, right? When there's this alternative that is so much more environmentally sustainable and clearly there's no, there isn't, well, there is, I guess there is a, I mean, there's a, there is a small ethical quandary. It's sort of like a stem cell argument, like, okay, well, what is this that we're eating? There's certainly an ick factor that we're going to have to get over. But there's a bigger ick factor if you look at the slaughterhouses. Yeah. If you like, people are like, oh, that's, it's lab grown. Like that's just weirds me out and it's gross, but like, all right, well, but you're cool with like all the hormones and these, these animals that are like walking

around in their own fecal matter. Totally. And scalding and peeling off the hormones and these animals that are like walking around in their own fecal matter. Totally. And scalding and peeling off the skin and cutting off the hooves. And I mean, it's gnarly. It's gross. Talk about an ick factor. All you have to do is Google factory farmed meat and just look at a slaughterhouse video. And that is like so full of ick, you know? So, but there's a reason. But there'll be an acclimation period to this. Yeah, for sure, for sure. I mean, like I have a hard time imagining that I'm gonna sit in the back seat of a car

that's gonna drive itself, but clearly that's gonna happen. It's happening, exactly. This is happening. And you know, the clean meat can't happen fast enough. Personally, I'm not gonna, I don't think I would consume it regularly at all. I'm definitely gonna taste it

because on principle, I wanna say, hey, I have no problem with regularly at all. I'm definitely going to taste it because on principle, I want to say, hey, I have no problem with this at all. But like you, I've lost my taste for meat. And I actually love the taste of plant-based food. And the simpler, the better. I can kind of eat like a peasant, a bowl of rice and beans and some local vegetables. And I'm so happy. It doesn't take much but then every once in a while I need a burger you know I need a hot dog we went to an event last night and they had a one of those food trucks outside of the event that sometimes they serve burgers and hot dogs and I was like oh damn because I've got the munchies you know it's been a long night and I want to have something and lo and behold they had all these veggie burgers and hot dogs and everything and got to eat i got to dig in just

like everybody else and it felt it felt a little wicked you know certainly not healthy but it was fun it's amazing how uh how many places have the beyond burger now? Like, you know, burger places all over the place. Like most places now have some kind of veggie patty option. Yeah. And that was not the case even a couple of years ago. It's changed so much so fast. The world is definitely changing. And I think we as food activists, we have to embrace that

and empower people to try this stuff, feel good about it, not shame them because it's got a little oil in it or it's a little bit processed or whatever. It's the better. So we want to fight for the better. Let's talk about Bruce and GFI. Yeah. So Good Food Institute, you're like on the board of directors or advisors? I'm on the board of directors at the Good Food Institute.

You go way back with Bruce, right? Bruce and I have been friends for, gosh, over a decade now. And he's always been someone I looked up to so much. He's so brilliant. I mean, whenever I needed something like an insight about something or fact check, or what do you think about this? Or what's your opinion on this? Bruce is sort of the sage. He kind of knows everything. So we were having dinner at Crossroads, I think a couple of years ago, probably two or three years ago. And we were talking about clean meat and what's coming and protein and everything. And I said, you know what, Bruce, you should write a book called The Future of Protein. And he said, that's a great idea. Why don't you do it with me?

And I was like, no, I'm tired. I don't want to write. I've written 20 books. I don't want to write right now. And you don't need me. Just do this. He goes, well, I'm not going to do it without you. And I said, well, how about I'll just work on a proposal.

I'll see how it comes out. And we sent it in to my agent. And so that's how we wrote the book together. But he is just about the smartest, loveliest human being and the most hardworking human being you've ever seen in your life. I get emails from him at all hours where he's doing work and just empowering people to help these entrepreneurs so that they can create. That's what Good Food Institute does, actually. Yes, let's talk about what they're doing. And maybe, like I had Bruce on, it was a year ago, like maybe what's going on more recently with GFI and what your involvement is. Yeah.

Well, so they are going into universities. They're teaching clean meat courses. They're teaching clean protein courses. They're going into food systems. They're supporting entrepreneurs, sort of like incubators, really helping people formulate their business plans, get funding, get it out there. So they're all about moving the world toward more sustainable protein. They're amazing. And so what is your, do you have like a, you don't have a daily like

involvement with that, right? But you're just sort of like an advisor to them. Yeah, I'm an advisor. That's cool. I'm just excited to be part of it, to tell you the truth, because there's no other organization that's doing this. And they're all about science. They're all about food science. They're not precious about anything. It's not an animal welfare organization,

which I love animal welfare organizations. They are hiring lobbyists to support these companies. So it's a kind of a game-changing organization that I'm really proud to be part of. Right. And the big players right now in this space are Hampton Creek, or they just rebranded their name, right? Are they called Just now? Did they change the name? Oh, I I'm not sure I think they did I think it's called just yeah uh Beyond Meat obviously Impossible Foods Memphis Meats I know there's a number there's a lot of Hungry Planet case studies fantastic yeah there's um and Tofurky that's been around for a while Field Roast that's been around for a while, Field Roast that's been around for a while, the early adapters, you know, the...

Gardein. Gardein, yeah. Follow your heart. There's just so many good ones, so many good ones, and good people who really, really have a mission, like they have a purpose-driven mission that they want to make this world better. They want to make human health better

and the environment better, so it's exciting to support them. What was the most surprising, like you've been at this for a long time, like you've been around the block in the vegan world, but in the process of writing this book, was there something you came across that surprised you that you didn't know or that you learned that you thought was, you didn't realize going into this process of writing this book? I didn't realize how big of an issue protein was. I did not realize. I mean, I knew it was an obsession.

I didn't know to the extent that we are consuming protein, the amount, the vast amount of animal protein that we're consuming and just the massive fallout from it so it just feels all the more critical to me that we address this protein issue that we really parse it apart and talk about it and we become activists so this is not even about just changing because i think a lot of your listeners are already on board this is about this book being a tool for activism. Like you, whenever someone says, I don't know, I need my protein. I don't feel good unless I have my protein. Here's, here's, here's a tool that you can use, you know, because it is, it is an

ongoing problem and it's not going away. So we have to take it into our own hands and become protein activists, clean, clean protein activists. But what if you don't want to be an activist? Like people that are new, they're like, I don't want to be an activist. I just want to feel a little bit better. Yeah. Well, be an activist for yourself. And, you know, most people, if you have a partner, if you have a child or just to make it easy on yourself. You're an activist, even if you don't, if you just want to feel good about yourself, you just want more options in your local restaurants or in your

employees cafeteria, you know, it requires a certain level of activism. I was just down in Florida with my mom, and she has a local pub, you know, that her condo people go to and there's like nothing to eat that you know i could eat and so for me in that moment of activism it was i went and bought some plant-based burgers and plant-based cheese and we went down and we had sat at the bar and had a beer and said totally i'll pay for everything the regular burger price, but would you mind just using my burgers, throw this on the grill? And they made me an amazing cheeseburger. So that's activism.

So even if it's not like, I need to change this pub and I need to change my community, it's activism to make it easier for me, for us as individuals to eat that way requires that we sort of speak out and talk to our local restauranteurs, talk to our local businesses, grocery stores, request things. That's what it, you know, it takes that consumer demand. Where did this all start for you? I don't know. I mean, you know I, you know, I, I definitely didn't grow up this way. I love to eat, you know, I'm kind of, I don't know. I, I just, I started just asking questions, you know, I, I wrote two books on relationships, how to be more conscious in relationships, how to,

if you didn't have a relationship, how to find one. And if you had one, how to be more conscious in relationships, how to, if you didn't have a relationship, how to find one. And if you had one, how to make it more conscious and deep. And then when I started researching another book, I was applying that consciousness, that being awake and aware to different sectors of my life. And I realized that I didn't have any consciousness around food. I had had little glimpses here and there, but not enough to make me go deep. And so I thought, well, I should know where my food comes from and then make conscious choices. So I started looking into it, watching videos, reading accounts, looking at undercover investigations. And I became deeply uncomfortable

with what I was seeing. And I thought, well, Kath, you're a hypocrite. You know, if you just keep eating the way you're eating and you're writing about waking up and being conscious, you're a hypocrite. And so I thought, if I'm going to be a writer who talks about this stuff, I have to really challenge myself to be someone who doesn't eat that way. Were you like, oh, fuck. Totally. Are you kidding me? Oh, my God. I wasn't like, awesome. No, no. It was like, oh, yeah, it was the ultimate inconvenient truth. I did not want to give up my favorite foods at all. And I'm kind of someone who loves food. I really love food. And I love tasty food. I didn't want to just be sort of this very

sanctimonious person where I'm eating a bowl of rice and some beans or something. So I just thought, I don't know how I'm going to do it. I'm just going to lean into it. And in the meantime, I had a dog. Her name was Lhotse. I loved her like a kid. I don't have children, so I love my dogs. She was on her back and I was rubbing her belly and her legs were just sort of, you know, she was just so joyful and I could swear she was smiling and she was wagging her tail. And in that moment, I just really saw her as an animal, not unlike any other animal, not unlike a pig or a chicken or a fish or a cow or anything. And the idea that I would feel, the absolute terror that she would feel really got me and made me connect the dots. And so I, that's how it kind of started. I just,

I, for the love of my dog, really love of my dog. And here you are. I mean, did you imagine that you would become this face of the vegan movement? No, I don't think I'm the face of the vegan movement. I am one of the faces. I'm one of the faces. And there are many faces and I'm proud to be, um, part of that village as it were, but in mafia. Yeah. Yeah. But definitely a vegan there's definitely a vegan mafia you think so oh yeah i don't know you're part of it i don't think so i think there is i don't know i i mean i i have so many friends who who eat meat that you know i love and we sit around and scoop and gossip and you know it's we we just put that in a compartment but they are changing i will say

i mean it's hard it's hard for people to be around me and not eat the food that i love because that's what i'm serving at my house and i make sure that it tastes really good and so it is and you know we go out to fun restaurants and you know i'll make sure we go to Craig's, you know, so that they can have chicken or steak and I can have my spaghetti squash primavera and they see that I'm eating delicious food and I'm having the pizza, but it's got vegan cheese on it and it tastes just like their pizza. So it kind of influences them. So little by little, you know, my community is changing too. But the surprising thing is that this is my calling, which I had no idea that this is my calling. I think that when you kind of canvas the whole vegan movement, there are all different kinds of voices and they come in

different shapes and sizes. Your voice is definitely one of inclusion, of you know celebrating the small victories and and kind of providing this accessible welcome mat for people. Like your related people can see themselves in you, because you're not a hippie and you kind of live in the modern world. But there are other, and there are all different other kinds of, there's very hardcore voices. There are sanctimonious voices. There are, you know, punk rock type voices or shouting, like all of that.

And I think it's all great. We need all those different kinds of voices because everybody has a different entry point. They're going to connect with, you know, if they can't connect with you, they'll connect with, you know, somebody else. But I think within all of that noise, there's a lack of cohesion, I think, that I think ultimately on some level, like, handicaps the movement from moving forward. And we were kind of talking about this a little bit before the podcast. It's similar to national politics. Like the Republicans seem to have their talking points all in order. They know what they're going to say. They fall into line and they get shit done that way. And the Democrats are fighting with each other and they can't get it together. And so ultimately they end up hamstringing themselves from the progress that they probably, you know, all seek if they could just get past themselves, right?

Yeah, we are our own worst enemy. We fracture and splinter off in so many different ways in this movement. And I think that's really one of the most unfortunate things because we need to support each other. things because we need to support each other. And maybe I'm not as hardcore as the next person. But I support that person because like you said, there are different entry points. And I also love that voice, you know, part of me just I want to lift up that voice is great. And then some other people, you know, are all about being more moderate even than me. And I support that too. I think it's really important that we're all deciding that we want to move forward and forward movement means away from

eating animal food and toward plant-based food. There's like hardcore, there's little by little, you know, and I think if we can just support each other and opt for the better, it's not the perfect. We'll do so much better, but we got to stop splintering off and fighting because this is these are serious times. Yeah. We got to get Oprah plant based. Wow.

Are you working on her? Come on. How are you going to make that happen? Oh, yeah, I can do that. Well, because she can move culture. You know that, right? No, but she did my vegan cleanse. She did a vegan cleanse and she did a month-long thing. She challenged her whole company, Harpo, to eat vegan, which was super successful. So she's done a lot and she's certainly talked about it.

She said she'd never be unconscious about eating animals again, so the awareness is there. Right. Well, she had that whole thing with the whole lawsuit with the beef industry over who's the guy who's in the last scene of Cowspiracy. Yeah, the mad cowboy. Right. Yeah.

Well, when I went on Oprah the first time to talk about this stuff, all of her producers said, do not bring up the animal stuff versus vegan stuff or plant-based, whatever you want to call it. And I was like, okay, I can talk about meditation. I can talk about all kinds of other stuff, relationships and consciousness at work. I can talk about, you know, all kinds of other stuff, relationships and, and consciousness at work. I can talk about all of that stuff. And Oprah, as Oprah is, went straight to the heart of the matter. And she wanted to talk about it because I think all of her

producers were afraid for her having gone through that traumatic experience with the meat industry. They didn't think she'd want to talk about it, but she did. She was curious, and she knows that this is a real rising tide that is only getting stronger. I can't speak for her, but certainly I know that she's interested and she's well aware of stuff. Yeah, that's cool. All right, well, we've got to wrap this up.

I can talk forever. Well, we can keep talking for a little while longer. What else do you want to talk about? I don't know. How's Dan doing? He's good. He's good. We're going to Davos.

He's going to speak at Davos. It's pretty exciting. Yeah, it'll be fun. We're going to go. be godavos so it's pretty exciting yeah it'll be fun we're gonna go we have a friend over there who lives in lugano who is a vintner so he has fantastic vegan wine and fantastic organic wines that are biodynamic and he's completely plant-based. So he has amazing food. So we're going to go over and eat and drink ourselves silly. That's cool. You guys really do live the Blue Zones lifestyle.

Like Dan, like one thing I've noticed is, you know, Dan's like very careful to like not overcommit and make sure that he builds in, you know, the time that he needs to recalibrate and enjoy his friends. Yeah. And that's something i have a hard time putting into putting into practice like i've noticed this even this year like you know i don't not burned out but like you work hard i take on too i take on too much yeah and i'm trying to get better at saying no to stuff, but finding the time to like, hey, I'm just going to go hang out with my

friends. I'm like, I can't do that. I got this, I got that, I got this. No, but life is so short. You never know. Look at these mudslides. I mean, it could end in a split second. Part of it is where we live, we have houses all around us. All you have to do is walk outside and you're going to run into somebody and that's, you know, kind of a nice automatic social situation. You don't necessarily have to have dinner with someone, but you run into someone in the street and you have a conversation. So I think that naturally lends itself to that kind of living situation, you know, the proximity to other people. So you have an automatic social thing. And then someone says, Oh, you want to just,

Hey, I'm going to go hiking. Do you want to go with me? Or things just kind of pop up. Yeah. So you live in a beautiful place. I know, but it's like, there's nobody, you know, yeah. Like I have to make an effort. You have to make more effort. And that effort involves quite a bit of driving. So for me to just like, hey, let's have lunch. Yeah. Like that's a four and a half hour endeavor for me. You know, it's like my, yeah, exactly. It's like, I can't do that, you know?

So come and move. And then I'll get like, oh, well come over to my house. Well, that's too far. I'm not driving all the way out there. I get it. Totally. You know what I mean? Totally.

When the dad's like, come up, hang out in Santa Barbara. And I was like, that sounds amazing. And then I'm like, but I don't know how I can make that work. I know. I'm like, I could do that, but then there's no podcast happening this week. So I'm trying to balance that. Take your equipment up to our house and we're going to be gone for a couple of weeks. Take our house.

I'm going to go live at your house while you're gone. Meet our neighbors. You'll see. It's very social up there. Yeah. You walk outside and people want to know how you're doing, what you're up to. The farmer's market there is insane. Oh, it's so good.

It's so good. Yeah. It's really good. But that day-to-day interaction is really nice. And by the way, our neighbors, they come over. We have happy hour. We're totally into happy hour. And we'll just, every once in a while, we'll just put out a text to the neighbors. Hey, you guys want to come over for happy hour we're totally in the happy hour and we'll just you know every once in a while

we'll just put out a text to the neighbors hey you guys want to come over for happy hour and we'll have some delicious you know cheese uh whether it's you know sri mati cheese or if it's um kite hill or something and you know hummus and it's like, share the love. Like this is, this is our little community. Like let's be social and, and, um, it's important. It's really important. You gotta, you gotta play more. You gotta, you gotta enjoy it more. Yeah. I, I, I know it intellectually and then putting into practice. It's like, and you, you know, I wouldn't characterize myself as a workaholic, but I'm, I'm definitely driven, you know, and I think there's, and like, I've been thinking about, you know, the ego piece in that, like, okay, what are you really doing? And like, what is this all about? You know what I mean? Like, where's your heart? Like,

take an honest inventory of where you're at. And I, and so I've been doing that. And that's been kind of an interesting, you know, insightful journey into the soul. And as part of kind of that exercise, I watched this documentary, Jim and Andy. Have you seen that documentary yet? Oh, man, you gotta watch it. It's a documentary about Jim Carrey during the course of making the Andy Kaufman movie, Man on the Moon.

And it's fascinating. And basically, he recognized that this was the opportunity movie oh yeah man on the moon oh wow and it's fascinating oh i'm gonna and basically you know he recognized that like this was the opportunity of a lifetime for him to portray this person who had meant so much to him and he decided to go all in and not not and it's sort of like he hired a crew to follow him around during the process of making this movie, like a behind-the-scenes crew. And he approaches it from a method perspective. But to ask him, he would say, no, I wasn't doing like a method acting job. Andy literally walked into my body, and I became Andy and Tony Clifton.

And I just exuded that, his psyche, through the process of making this movie in a very kind of spiritual way. And it's unbelievable to watch. Oh, wow. And how disruptive he was to everybody because he never broke character. And he was this obnoxious person. And to be frank, Jim Carrey's never been the same. He's never been the same since that. And the footage of this is interspliced with a very long interview with Jim in current day,

in which he reflects over the course of his career from somebody who was very ambitious. He wrote himself that $10 million check and then achieve that very much a master at manifesting in his life to come to this place on the other side of it to say, I'm here to tell you that being rich and getting everything you want is not the solution to whatever ails you. And he's been on this deep spiritual quest to find peace within himself. And it's very interesting. And it's made me reflect on my own journey and the attachment like that I have, like the ambition that I have attached to what I do. And it's like, it's made me realize how I have at times undervalued like those things that are the most important. And the whole point in saying that is that I notice in you and in the way Dan carries himself that he's not unaware of that and that he does prioritize that.

And I can see that in, you know, who he is and how he behaves and how he carries himself and how genuine he is with everybody that he meets. Well, that's true. He is. But, you know, I would say give yourself a break because you wouldn't have achieved what you've achieved if you didn't have that drive and ambition and, you know, just that crazy sort of dedication and devotion to whatever you were doing. sort of dedication and devotion to whatever you were doing, whether it was the Ultraman challenge or starting your podcast and, you know, growing that. I think that it takes a certain amount of that. But then you get to a level and it's like, OK, I can I can actually now fold in some meaningful time with friends.

I can actually do stuff that's not super, you know, important. I can just kind of have fun. I can just mess around because that's when the ideas come, you know, when you just work, work, work. And I said in my book and, and, um, in the acknowledgements, I said to Dan, I said, let's just go sit on the balcony and, and drink wine for a little while, you know, cause it's like, and drink wine for a little while, you know, because it's like, I've been working really hard and writing takes a lot of energy. So when you just give yourself the permission, I don't mean really like we're going to sit on the balcony and drink wine. But I mean, metaphorically, let's take a break. And that's when the ideas come. That's when the inspiration comes, you know, when you're not looking for it when you're just

daydreaming or my thing is dancing i love dancing you know um by myself or at a party or whatever not in any professional way not in a way that i'm following steps but like just have fun just relax and that's when the next step shows up. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. All right. Well, I'm going to take your advice. You will have fun. Yes. I promise you.

Damn it. I'm going to let go. Yeah. Come to our house. Come to our house. I will. Yeah. Cool. All right.

Well, we do have to wrap this up, but maybe you can leave us with some helpful tools or advice for somebody who's like, okay, it's 2018. I've listened to 300 of Rich's podcasts. And now I'm fine. Like, Kathy put me over the top. Like, I'm ready to go. Like, what do I do? Tell me where to go.

What should I? Okay, protein, whatever. What's next? I would say start crowding out some of your favorite meals. Don't make it hard on yourself. Just start with your regular fare. So if you're used to having a burrito, beef burrito, do a black bean burrito. If you're used to having pizza with sausage, try a plant-based pizza with sausage and vegan cheese.

plant-based pizza with sausage and, you know, vegan cheese. Just try to sort of crowd out the stuff that you're used to having with a plant-based alternative and do a smoothie. Smoothies are really good. They're so easy too. You just throw in some frozen fruits and frozen vegetables, you know, some flax seeds, maybe some protein powder, see how good you feel. And just not not to worry about doing this stuff perfectly, just lean into it, get started crowd out the old stuff with a with a cleaner versions of the proteins, and you'll find your you'll find your way. I hear you. It's good advice. All right. Well, it's all in the new book, Clean Protein. You actually have like a massive recipe section in here too. So basically, yeah, it's like you have, it really does like condense everything down. You're like, here's food policy.

Here's everything that's going into how they market these animal products to you. Here's what's going on environmentally. Here's what's going on with the clean meat movement. Here's how plant proteins impact your body versus animal proteins. And you go through all the various diseases, cancer, obesity, type 2 diabetes, Alzheimer's even, which we didn't even talk about. It's great. I think it's going to be super helpful for people. It's a great entry point to kind of step into this and go, oh, here's all your questions answered in one place. So good job.

Thank you. Thank you, Rich. Thank you. Love chatting with you. Awesome. So if you want to connect with Kathy at Kathy Freston on Twitter and Instagram, is that the best place? Instagram.

And your website? Yep. KathyFreston.com. Awesome. Anything else? Thank you. Gratitude. Have fun in Switzerland. That'll be cool. We will. All right. Have a glass of wine for me. Thank you. Gratitude. Have fun in Switzerland.

That'll be cool. We will. Have a glass of wine from me. Thank you. We will. All right, Kathy. Peace. Cheers.

Lance. All right, we did it. How do you feel? Are you good? Do you feel enriched? Do you feel illuminated? Do you feel uplifted? Do you feel empowered?

I hope so. I enjoyed that one. I hope you guys did too. Do me a favor, pick up a copy of Kathy's new book, Clean Protein. Be sure to drop her a line on Instagram or Twitter at Kathy Freston and let her know what you thought of today's podcast. As always, check out the show notes at richroll.com for lots of additional links and resources on everything we talked about today. I also wrote a comprehensive blog post on the subject matter of protein. It's called slaying the protein myth. I'll put a link up to that, um, in the show notes as well. Cause I think it's a germane to the subject matters discussed a quick reminder. Our new cookbook, the plant power

Italia is now available for pre-order. We're very excited about it. You can find out more about the book on my website or just go to any of your favorite online booksellers and it's up there. You can pre-order it now. It would help us out a lot. We would appreciate it. And you're not going to be disappointed. It's an incredible book.

If you would like to support my work, do me a favor. Subscribe to the show on Apple Podcasts or on whatever platform you enjoy this content. It's free. It only takes a second, but it really does help us out a lot. You can also support this show on Patreon at richroll.com forward slash donate. And if you need help with your diet and nutrition, I strongly urge and suggest you check out our meal planner. We offer thousands, thousands of custom tailored plant-based recipes, grocery lists, even grocery delivery in almost every U S metropolitan city area, right at your fingertips, this powerful toolbox with everything you need to eat better, eat the way you deserve. And it's very affordable, just a dollar 90 a week. When you sign up for a

year to find out more, go to meals.richroll.com or click on Meal Planner on the top menu on my website. I want to thank everybody who helped put on the show today. Jason Camiolo for audio engineering, additional production help, interstitial music, help with the show notes, all kinds of stuff. Sean Patterson for his help on graphics and with the photography stuff. He doesn't take the pictures, but he puts all the nice words on them. Michael Gibson for videography for filming today's episode, which you can find on YouTube, youtube.com forward slash richroll. Subscribe there as well.

And theme music, as always, by Annalema. Thanks for the love, you guys. I'll see you back here soon with another amazing, great, mind-blowing, illuminating, and enriching episode of the podcast. Until then, be well. Peace, plants, namaste. Thank you.