The Rich Roll Podcast - Kelly Corrigan Is The Poet Laureate Of The Ordinary

Episode Date: September 16, 2019

Love. Connection. Pain. Finding the universal in the specific. And beauty in the mundane. This is but a few of the themes explored today with the woman dubbed ‘the voice of her generation' by Oprah magazine and ‘the poet laureate of the ordinary' by HuffPost. Meet Kelly Corrigan. Best known for her insightful, candid takes on the too-often overlooked moments that define our lives, Kelly's writing spills over with warmth, courage, vulnerability and humor — rendering her many books beloved by millions. A Today Show regular, Kelly has authored a stack of New York Times bestsellers including, The Middle Place,Lift, and Glitter and Glue.Tell Me More, her most recent offering, is a deeply personal and very funny story-driven collection of essays on the twelve powerful phrases we use to sustain our relationships and make love and connection possible. Named one of the best books of 2019 by Real Simple and Bustle, Tell Me More is both a high-recommend and the backdrop for today's dive into how we can cultivate more meaningful connection and deeper understanding with the people in our lives. I met Kelly exactly a year ago at The Nantucket Project. In addition to being an extraordinary writer, she serves as the creative director of TNP — the right hand to organization founder Tom Scott, who shared his story on the podcast in April, 2018 (episode #360). The latest in my series of guests sourced from this extraordinary event, I was immediately taken by her fun and fearless stage presence. Her curiosity. Her unique insights. And her unmistakeable charm. I knew she would make an amazing guest for the show. Today she delivers. We begin by traversing Kelly's arc as a writer — how she developed her voice — and her role in shaping TNP. Then we broaden the aperture, exploring her observations and insights into how we relate to the people in our lives — from our loved ones and children, to co-workers and strangers. This is about finding beauty and poetry in the simple things. And why saying things like, ‘I don't know' or ‘I was wrong' or ‘tell me more' can provide a bedrock for the emotional experiences we seek most, yet too often elude us. Better understanding. Greater empathy. Deeper intimacy. True connection. You can watch it all go down on YouTube. Enjoy! Rich

It's more ordinary for me to be stuck than to be in flow. You know, it's interesting. I've been thinking a lot about talking about work and talking about the thing you're working on and whether that's a good thing or a bad thing. I had heard a writer say once that they never talk about it because part of the reward of having written is being able to finally share it and talk about it.

And if you give yourself that reward prematurely, you're less motivated to complete the work. And I think there might be something like that for me, which is to say that I totally relate to you thinking, maybe I'll just podcast forever. Like, well, I write a book. Like, this is so satisfying. And this right now is so satisfying for me. Like, I could do this all day long. And this right now is so satisfying for me. Like I could do this all day long. And way more satisfying than writing.

I'm only glad to have written. I'm almost never happy when writing. That's Kelly Corrigan. And this is The Rich Roll Podcast. The Rich Roll Podcast. Hey people, what's the latest? How is your September going? Are you settling into your fall routine? Either way, happy to have you here.

Welcome or welcome back to the podcast. My name is Rich Roll and I am your host. Today, we're gonna talk about love. We're gonna talk about connection, the pain of life, relationships, and the power of storytelling with the captivating, the singular, and very charming, I might add, Kelly Corrigan. Called the voice of her generation by Oprah Magazine

and the poet laureate of The Ordinary by HuffPost, Kelly Corrigan is many, many things, but she's best known for her very personal voice as a writer capturing real life, the ordinary, the mundanity of day-to-day living with a warmth, a courage, a candid honesty, and a vulnerability and poetic beauty that makes her many books beloved by millions. She is the author of a slew of New York Times bestsellers, including The Middle Place, Lift, Glitter and Glue, and her most recent offering, Tell Me More, which was named one of the best books of the year by Real Simple and Bustle. It's this deeply personal, honest, and very funny

story-driven collection of essays on the 12 powerful phrases we use to sustain our relationships and make love and connection possible. Kelly is a regular on the Today Show. She's been profiled and featured everywhere, and our conversation is coming up in a couple few. But first... We're brought to you today by recovery.com. I've been in recovery for a long time. It's not hyperbolic to say that I owe everything good in my life to sobriety. And it all began with treatment and experience that I had that quite literally saved my life. And in the many years since, I've in turn helped many suffering addicts and their loved ones find treatment. And with that, I know all too well just how confusing and how overwhelming and how challenging it can be to find the right place and the right level of care, especially because, unfortunately, not all treatment resources adhere to ethical practices.

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again, go to recovery.com. Okay, Kelly, Kelly Corrigan. So I first met Kelly about this time last year when I attended the Nantucket Project. This is the latest in my ongoing series of guests that originate from that amazing experience. Kelly, in addition to being this extraordinary author, also serves as the creative director of the Nantucket Project and sort of the right hand to Nantucket Project founder, Tom Scott, who you may recall from the podcast, episode 360.

Check that out if you missed it, which I will again be attending this very week, as a matter of fact, very excited about it. In any event, I was quite taken with Kelly, watching her host a variety of amazing conversations that weekend. I started delving into her books. I knew she would make an amazing guest on the show, and she definitely delivers. So this is a wide-ranging conversation that begins with Kelly's writing career and working with the Nantucket Project before pivoting into a broader conversation about Kelly's books and her insights and her observations into how we relate to the people in our lives, from our loved ones, to our children, to our neighbors.

It's about finding beauty and poetry in the simple things. And why saying things like, I don't know, or no, or I was wrong, or tell me more, provide the bedrock for better understanding, empathy, and Intimacy. Super fun conversation. So, without further ado, let's get into it. This is me and Kelly Corrigan.

Hi, Kelly. Hi. Thank you for coming all the way out here. I wanted to first talk about, there was just a, like a big Nantucket Project event in Port Chester, right? Yes. Yeah, how did that go? It looked like amazing. It was beautiful.

It's in the Capitol Theater. So typically we do our events in the round. Uh-huh. And this was on a stage looking out. So it's very different. The vibe was very different. And I think that we decided at the end of the night that we really prefer to be in the round, that there's something

participatory about that, that you can't have when you're on a stage. And then also being on a stage like that can sometimes, um, trigger a performative element that isn't ideal for what we're trying to do right most people that we put on stage that night avoided that but there was one um one part of the evening got very um like a show yeah and we're trying super hard not to be a show well it's hard when you scale it up and you have that many people yeah in attendance right? I mean, I'll tell you, music always works. So we had the Harlem Gospel Choir. Uh-huh. And we also had Renee Robinson, who's an Alvin Ailey dancer, and she got the audience up and taught them this set of moves.

And then the kind of big reveal was that it was set to Hello by Adele. Uh-huh. And all of a sudden we were dancing like on point. Everybody in the audience? Everybody in the audience. Wow. A thousand people. That's cool.

Awesome. She is one of those terrifically charismatic people. I mean, I would say that in the last five years, the single most charismatic person I've ever met is Renee Robinson. I feel like I need to get her on the podcast. You do. you do. She's got it, whatever it is. And she's 100% charisma for good,

which is not always true of the deeply charismatic. Like it sometimes turns for the worst and you find that they're enjoying their power in ways that are unhealthy. But she's truly, I don't even know if she's aware of how charismatic she is. How do you and Tom find these people, these gems? Well, now, so this will be the ninth year of the Nantucket Project. That means that we have been in front of, I'm going to say 10,000 people,

maybe even more over nine years. So some percentage of those people take it upon themselves to reach out with suggestions. And that's how the funnel gets filled. And then there's some vetting that goes on. And then you hear about someone from three different people. And that makes you want to go meet them. And then it trickles down from there. I'm in a similar situation.

I'm on the receiving end of a lot of suggested guests. And the vetting process for me or the litmus test really is a guttural thing. It's instinctual. Do I resonate with this? Sometimes multiple people will say you should have this person on, but I'm not feeling it. And then I do it anyway. and it's not quite right. Like, I have to really, it's like an unknowing sort of thing that clicks, and I'm like, oh, yeah, this person is right. And what's interesting about Nantucket is a lot of these people, like, a bunch of these people are people I've never heard of.

You know, they're not like necessarily like people that are in mainstream consciousness, or maybe they're kind of teetering on tapping into that. But it's always like it's so well curated, and I have yet to see somebody that strikes a false note. Well, so it's interesting. It's a four-day ideas festival on Nantucket in September. And we end up with about 40 people on stage. And we have sort of this rule of thumb that seven of them should be household names. So that's Hope Solo and George W. Bush and Laura Dern. And it seems like that's just enough to give the uninitiated confidence that it's going to be worth their four days. And then the real joy of it is to find these unknown people. And in fact, I was an unknown

person. That's how I came into the Nantucket Project is that I was asked to speak because Tom had been told by a couple different people that they had seen me do my thing and that they really liked it. And so he came out and took me to lunch in San Francisco at some Vietnamese place. And he said, I want you to come to Nantucket and I want you to give the talk of your life. And to be totally honest, I was completely offended. Why? I thought it was so outrageous. What an outrageous assignment for somebody who I had known for 40 minutes. And I'd never heard of the Nantucket Project.

I mean, it's not Ted. Yeah. It's a different thing. And so anyway, but it got under my skin, like that idea. Like it was an outrageous thing to say to someone. And also, I suppose, for the right person, totally irresistible. And that became this challenge. And it really was. The talk I gave was literally the talk of my life. It was the best talk I ever gave. It was the hardest I ever worked on anything. It won the

audience award. And that began our relationship. And we're five years in now. Yeah. So, so how did you go from that to becoming the creative director? I, I came back the following year and interviewed a couple of people. I interviewed Julie Tamor who did Lion King on Broadway. And I interviewed a wonderful, uh, young athlete who had been in and out of jail named Maurice Claret. He was like the number one draft pick in the country out of Ohio state. And then he ended up going to jail. He was like the number one draft pick in the country out of Ohio State, and then he ended up going to jail. And he tells an incredible story that involves Warren Buffett, and it's a great – he's an amazing guy, actually. He'd be really cool for you to talk to.

Mighty struggles. Mighty struggles. And then the following year, I came back and talked to some more people. And then at some point, Tom said, I want to hire you. And I said, well, isn't your company in Connecticut? Because I live in Oakland, California. And by the way, I write books. Yeah, I do have this other job. I'm like five books into this thing.

And he said, we'll work it out. And he's a person who's very similar to you where he's operating almost entirely on gut and is very, very careful, very carefully tuned to his gut. And he just can't do it. If he doesn't have it, if he doesn't have the good feeling, he just cannot do it.

He works in mysterious ways, that guy. He works in mysterious ways. He does. I'm way more linear. Yeah. Cryptic in certain respects, that guy. He works in mysterious ways, he does. I'm way more linear. Yeah, cryptic in certain respects, but the equation works. And I've said this before, but like I've known Tom and Neil Phillips

since like I was 14 years old. I went to school with those guys. And I had a kind of checkered experience at that phase of my life. But being at Nantucket Project was really healing for me to like reconnect with them and to see like the amazing work that both of those guys are doing. And then some of my classmates also

from that period of time were there in attendance. And I just, it was magical for me. And, you know, I've spoke at a lot of different events and conferences and there was something radically different about Nantucket that I can't quite put my finger on it on, but I think it has something to do with just the heart and the integrity that, you know, Tom really sets the tone with that and the level of engagement by everybody who attends. Yes. And the kind of immersive experience

that the speakers all have, like usually people fly in, they do their thing, they leave, but everybody stayed the whole time. They attended all the sessions and everybody left that experience transformed. I think that my favorite thing, you're touching on like all my favorite things about TMP. One is I do think that it's funny and awesome that two 6'4 guys who went to college to play football are in this love-centric business together.

I know. I would have never thought that. It's incredible. One of them went to Harvard and one of them went to Brown, and I'm sure they were like BMOCs. one of them went to Brown and I'm sure they were like BMOCs. And I don't know how many people whose lives begin on that note end up where those two have ended up, but their whole, you know, their whole raison d'etre is to help people connect with other people in meaningful ways over meaningful topics. Yeah. I would have never predicted it in a million years. I mean, to be sure both of those guys were definitely

like the most popular guys, the best athletes, but they were never, yes, they were jocks, but they were never like bullies or they didn't have that kind of bro attitude about them. They were much more mature and kind than kind of the stereotype of that. But still, than kind of the stereotype of that. But still, the terrain that they traverse to be these kind of people that are carrying such a resonance for so many others is kind of a remarkable thing. The other thing you mentioned that is really important to me about the experience of TMP is that it's super collegial. And so the very things you noted, like people don't come and go.

Once you come and you give your talk, you stay. Because we're all under a tent in a circle, you can see everybody all the time. You can go sit next to them if you want. And so there's not this kind of big dog because there's no backstage and there's no green room. And that's literally true and also kind of like figuratively true.

Like there isn't- A separation. It's not like, ta-da, here comes Rich, roll. You just come up out of the audience and talk for a little bit and then you go back into the audience because everybody's learning and everybody's working it out together.

And then this kind of eyes up, hands out mentality that that audience has I never have made so many contacts in four days and contacts makes it sound like I'm building my professional network I don't have a professional network I'm just a writer but

I mean when I I hug 50 people a day at Nantucket Project and leaving there you are, you're a little bit different. And I don't know where else people can get that. Yeah, I think that's very true. And I think we're starving for that kind of connection.

Well, that's the beauty of Neighborhood Project, which is this very clever way that Tom and crew have come up with to share the TMP experience more broadly. Because Nantucket's really far away for most people, and it's expensive, and it's come up with to share the TMP experience more broadly because Nantucket's really far away for most people and it's expensive and it's hard to get to. And so you, and you have all this, all these takeaways, all this learning, all this content, you have speakers who have given really remarkable talks about ideas you haven't heard before.

And then you also have all these short films that we make. So we make tons of five to 10 minute films. And so if you can put some of that together and then share it with people broadly, and they can watch it in their living room together with other people, and then they set aside two hours to talk about it, that's remarkable. So to me, the biggest, biggest win for TMP is this neighborhood project thing, like getting it out into the hands of many and it's totally free. How many of those are currently up and running? I think there are 70 and I think we're in 26 or 27 states. Yeah. So yeah, I mean, it's real. I went to, I went to one at Greg Renfrews and Mark.

Um, it was really cool. It reminded me kind of like, it was kind of like an AA meeting. You watch these movies and then everybody's vulnerable and sharing their reactions and their experiences. And it was cool. I really enjoyed it. I think of it as like somewhere at any given session, right? Because there's eight episodes, if you will, in this first season.

And in any given meeting of those groups, because I'm in two. I'm in one here in Southern California, and then I'm one up in my neighborhood at home. It can be like a grad school seminar where we're talking about AI and the future and how our kids are dealing with things in a different way than we are and approaching problems and problem solving in a different way than things we never would have thought of.

How that makes us feel. Do we feel like old ladies who are incapable of participating in the world because it's moving so fast and we can barely get our printer to work, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. And then there's super heartfelt stuff like about forgiveness and figuring out how to do that again and again and again and again as life requires. So it's sort of a continuum of like anything from, as you say, like a meeting where people are trying to solve a very urgent problem to a more intellectual

experience where you're toying with an idea because it's been put in front of you and you haven't really had the chance to think about it and talk about it in long form yet. And what is the goal of these neighborhood projects? It's so funny. What are you aiming for with this? Meaningful connection to others. That's it. That that's it and it's really funny because i don't think anyone believes us truly what is the hidden agenda right i honestly i really don't think it's sufficient for most people to say i don't know it's like just for the good of the order like this is what we believe will make people's lives better. Yeah. And is that enough?

Like, it's sort of funny. I can feel people waiting for like, yeah, but. Right. What is this really about? And it's really about putting people together in a room and like letting them connect over meaningful topics. Well, we need some kind of ceremony or excuse to do that. Like, despite the technology that we're all carrying around these days, we really are more isolated than we ever have been.

And, you know, we don't go next door and knock on the door and ask for sugar. And we don't know our name. I mean, lots of people do. But, like, you know, we live, you know, in an area where, like, I really don't know the people that live around me. And short of some reason for us to get together, it's not going to happen. Well, the thing I think is I don't even know the people I know. So there's a lot of people in my neighborhood project in Oakland who I would have told you I know them.

And then we get in there and they start telling me that they're the only person in their family who continually forgives. This was one woman said, I'm the only person in my family who still forgives my brother. He's an active alcoholic and everyone else has walked. And I'm the only person who's staying and everyone's mad at me because I'm stopping him, quote unquote, from reaching rock bottom. But she said, but I can't, I can't leave him alone. If I leave him, it's over. I have no idea what I'll do, but I'm the only person. So I thought I knew her.

Yeah. Because I had stood on some sidelines with her over the years. And like we did a back to school coffee for the teachers. Like that's what I thought I knew her. Yeah, there's knowing and there's knowing. And then to provide like a crucible, like an environment that's safe for people to relate on that kind of vulnerable level is a special thing. Yeah. Yes, and it's terribly absent.

Terribly absent. I do it once a month in my town. I think even though I'm kind of in this business, like I'm professionally attached to a thing that does this, this is still the only two hours in the month that I am being in this way. Right. That parts of me are turned on in a way that they are not turned on. Like gears are turning that do not turn,

but for that conversation. This is why I think everybody should be in 12-step programs, because as somebody who's been, you know, a member of that for a very long time, like I'm acclimated. I'm used to going into groups where a whole bunch of people sit down and, you know, tell the horrible truths of their lives and bear their souls and are open and vulnerable and are willing to not only put that out, but also accept help. And it's such a marvelous, remarkable dynamic that I think everybody could benefit from on some level,

irrespective of whatever problems you may or may not have in your life. I know. I mean, I think I probably agree with you. I'm not in a 12-step program, but I do, I mean, I think I probably agree with you. I'm not in a 12-step program, but I do, I mean, I love love. I love to be like in the experience of it. And that's what it feels like to be in there.

Well, let's talk about how you infuse your writing with that sensibility, you know, because a lot of your work is about that. And it's, you know, you lot of your a lot of your work is about that and it's you know you've been you have you've been called these things like the voice of your generation by oprah and huff pose poet laureate of the ordinary like how does that make you feel when you hear those pretty good those are very lofty statements i loved poet laureate of the ordinary it's very loved that because i did feel initially self-conscious.

I mean, 10 years ago, The Middle Place came out, which was my first book. It was this book about my dad and I both had cancer at the same time. And my mom, after she read it, said, well, Callie, you know, it's very good. I mean, I did not find any spelling mistakes, and your grammar is perfect. And I was like, yeah, Ma, but what about the stories? Did you feel anything when you were reading it? And she said, well, I did, but I just kept wondering, Ma, but like, what about the stories? Like, did you feel anything when you're reading it? And she said, well, I did, but I just kept wondering, like, who wants to read about us? Like, we're not rich, we're not poor, we're not, you know, big family, we're not

a small family. You know, and I said, I don't know. I don't know who wants to read about us. It's my biggest fear is that it's too ordinary. And then people wanted to read about us. and then people wanted to read about us. Yeah. And I, so when that came out, when the Huffington Post said that, I thought, oh, that's really validating in a way that it's okay to just tell your very ordinary stories about your very ordinary life.

You have an extraordinary life. You, Rich Roll, have an extraordinary life. I do not. I have a really run-of-the-mill, right-up-the-middle kind of life. But you do, too. Let's be honest. You live a pretty cool life. Oh, it's very cool. I love my life. But it's not, in terms of like, let's say that we were in a room together. We were back-to-back meetings at Random House. And you went in and you said, well, I'm an extreme athlete. I'm an addict. I'm a vegan.

I've experienced this, this, and this. And then I came in after you and said, I'm a mom. I have two kids. I live in a house with my husband. I make dinner four times a week. The rest of the time we get takeout. Which one of us do you want to hear more of? Where's the hook? What's the big takeaway? Well, I mean, I think that that speaks loudly

about your beautiful ability to translate the human experience and all its mundanity into something that we can all connect with and relate to. Like there's this sense that you have to be Hemingway in order to write about your life. Like what are the crazy adventures that you've gone on? But in truth, like your books, I mean, it's like what?

Every book hits number two on the New York Times. Every book number two, never number one. I know, what's going on with that? I don't know. It was with Middle Place, it was three cups of tea. It was just sitting there forever. I couldn't get past it. And then another one,

it was like the former Secretary of State's book was sitting on top of mine. was just sitting there forever. I couldn't get past it. And then another one, it was like the former Secretary of State's book was sitting on top of mine. Sometimes you just can't get past it. But it's generally like all these famous people and CEOs and stuff like that, right? It is. I remember when the first book was on the bestseller list,

showing it to my dad and saying, okay, so you know who's on this list? An NFL coach, two former presidents, former secretary of state, a newscaster, like Tom Brokaw was on the list at that time. Jack Welch was on the list at that time. And I said, and you, Greeny, you're on that list. And what was his response to that? Wabi, wabi. Is this great? Is this a crack up? Wowie, is this great?

Is this a crack up? Yeah, it's beautiful that you can, you get to, through your honesty and your vulnerability and your amazing ability to kind of, you know, find in mind the meaning in our daily lives and translate that in a way where the reader can really, it just resonates with people. They see themselves in your writing. They can identify with that.

And I think it makes them feel like their lives have meaning too. They don't have to be Hemingway. The nicest thing that people ever say is exactly, exactly. That's exactly it. I have been around the edges of that feeling and I have lived that moment before and I've never been able to

articulate it, but I've had this deep sense that it was important, that it was like a, that, you know, it was a turning point or it was a pivot point in my life. And you said it exactly. I watched your video transc Transcending, the other day. You did. Which is you reading this article before a group of women. That's essentially just about what it's like to be a woman, a mom. Yeah. You know, basically the typical kind of suburban experience. a mom, you know, basically the typical kind of suburban experience. And not only did you get choked up at the end, but like all these women were just like, they were all, you could, they

weren't saying it out loud, but they're all going exactly, exactly, exactly. Well, the, the, the thing about that essay, I'd written it for my 40th birthday. And the idea was that there, there are these, This constant flow of deposits that we're making in each other's lives That allow us to catch each other on the worst day So let's say I'm in your life for 10 years And I'm dropping your kid off at school for you And then you're running my kid home from soccer And then I share my leftovers with you,

and then I pop over the day you sprained your ankle, and then you come over the day my husband gets fired, and life keeps doing what life does, and we're staying with each other. We're holding on to each other, and then something really happens. Then there's some tragedy. The only reason why I can be there for you, that I can comfort you in that moment, is because we've been on this road together. So that was the turning point of that idea, was that there's a thousand minuscule deposits that build this foundation that we could stand on

the day the worst thing happens, the day you lose your kid, the day you lose your husband. But we tend to focus on those monumental occurrences and glance over the minutiae, but your work is really about lasering in on those little moments and realizing that that's really where life takes place. My favorite line that I ever wrote in all these books is the last line of Tell Me More. And it's, you're a profoundly ordinary kid is singing in the shower and you get to be here to hear it. Yeah. And in the context of that book, which was written in the wake of losing my dad and then losing my good friend Liz and giving a eulogy in front of her three kids, eight, 10 and 12.

And then going home and having my kids get in a big fight at the dinner table. And then my daughter kind of storming off and then she was in the shower. And then I heard something and then I went upstairs and then I kind of leaned my ear against the door and I heard all the single ladies, all the single ladies. And it was like, I get to be here. Like I get to listen to this kid sing in the shower and whatever that means for you, that's what it means. But for me, it was like head to toe chills. Like I was so hyper aware, you know, how you are after a loss and it fades. And that's partly what Tell Me More is about too, is how difficult it is to kind of hold that clarity and live in that space

and not return to your normal crappy self who's pissed off about gaining weight or getting a parking ticket. But that moment of standing outside that door was like, Liz will not have this moment. She will not get this moment. She will not listen to her 15-year-old singing Beyonce in the shower, and I'm here. And to be able to be present and aware of the import of that, which is such a fleeting thing. It's so difficult for us as human

beings to hold onto that truth, right? And that is what the book is about. It's sort of like you, you know, navigating the aftermath of your father and your friend passing away and grappling with your frustration or perhaps on some level shame for not being able to kind of, you know, maintain that level of gratitude throughout, like constantly having to remind yourself, but defaulting to just the daily grind. Yeah. Well, you know, it's interesting.

So the book is built around these 12 things that I feel like we have to be able to say to one another and to ourselves to be adults in the world, to be in permanent relationship. And the first one is the most unusual, and it's this thing that this mindfulness guy taught me. So I was working at my husband's, I was writing at my husband's startup. It's called Medium.

And it's a total class. Is Medium still a startup? No, I guess it's still going. It's still going. It's still going. So Ev Williams, who started it, and would let me come and and right there he's very generous and opened the doors to to writers in the area and um so i would come and you know it's

like total classic san francisco startup like uh kombucha bar meatless mondays nap pods which i'm pretty sure is like where the millennials are getting it on. And then they had this mindfulness guy, his name's Will Kabat-Zinn, who would be an amazing guest for you. He's John Kabat-Zinn's son, who wrote, wherever you go, there you are. And so anyway, he would lead these sessions. So I just like plopped in there right next to Ev as if I was like a real employee. And this guy did this little talk before we meditated about, it's like this. And I didn't totally know what he meant, but I felt like it resonated on that level that like a song lyric might resonate where you wouldn't even want to

parse it. You just want to like sit with it and hold it and put it in your wallet. So I kept thinking about it, and then I actually ended up in a long conversation with him, and I said, I have these moments where I totally lose track of what matters, and I have these moments where it's crystal clear, and they're so precious, and I want to hold them, and I can't. And he said, it's like this. And he said, when do you lose track? And I said, well, here's an ordinary Monday morning at our house. So I have these two kids and a husband and they are eating breakfast at the table

and then they're very busy people. And so they don't have time to put the dishes in the sink but i do so i take the dishes over and i'm already like starting to feel steamed about that and then they're gone and then i go back to the kitchen table where i serve this like organic food that i buy at a grocery store that really irritates me and on the kitchen table is a little teeny pile of cut toenails. And that just took me over the edge. The indignity. The indignity.

I mean, do you have cut toenails? Like, have you ever cleaned up somebody's cut toenails? Oh, everything. Has everybody cleaned up somebody's cut toenails? Is that what I don't understand about that? Well, it's just the idea, you know, look, kids at a certain age, it's just, they just do what they do and then they walk away, right? And the implicit message as the parent is always like, oh, okay, so I'm here, I'm the one who's supposed to clean all this up for you, you know what I mean? It's like a daily thing. Yeah. And then, but the only way out, of course,

is to realize that it's like this, like that there are that. And if you don't mind, I'll just read the end of this chapter because, because what I was feeling was that, well, after the cut toenail thing, then I, this UPS guy came who is like aggressively fit, like you fit and I am not fit and I do not exercise. And I do hope that during this conversation today, you can persuade me to like turn over a new leaf. I think you're doing fine. Oh, it's terrible. It's terrible. I'm going to age so badly. Anyway, put a pin in that. So anyway, the guy comes and he gives me this little envelope and it's from J crew. And then I remember that I bought this t-shirt, this little linen top. And then I realized that like linen has no stretch in it. There's no lycra, but there's lycra in almost everything else. So I don't really know what size I am anymore, you know, because maybe I'm a six, but maybe I'm a 12 because I've been wearing stretchy clothes for like 15 years now.

There's the size we tell people that we are and then there's the real size that we are. Yeah, your driver's license weight, so to speak. So anyway, I go upstairs, I put this shirt on and then I literally can't get it off and I have to cut it off with scissors. So I'm fit to be tied. I'm like staring at myself

in my new stupid vest in the mirror and I relax my face. I exhale, I console my reflection. It's's like this kelly this is how it goes hidden in the morning's frustrations like a rattlesnake in the wood pile is something else i close my eyes so i can listen for the other thing the further away much worse thing in the quiet of my own head life ends I've known this since the summer of 1972, when an ambulance drove away in silence with the old lady down the street who gave out almond joys on Halloween. But now I've seen mortality do its awful ghosting, up close, twice, and that has changed the context of everything. In the new Zodiac, without Greenie, my dad, without Liz,

In the new Zodiac, without Greenie, my dad, without Liz, all terms have been recalibrated. Pain is agony. Bad is fatal. The scale is reset, making it hard for me to reconcile what I've seen with how I live. Liz would have done a week of aggressive bromodomain inhibitors at Cedars-Sinai for one morning of hairballs, eggshells, and toenail clippings. To see her kids become teenagers screaming obscenities at each other in the hall, she'd have given up every organ in her pelvic cavity. Then there's Greeny,

who would have told you that life was a carnival. All music and snack stalls, fortune tellers and strong men, it's magical, lovey. Edward, my husband, called Greeny a happiness genius. But ask anyone, he was as excited about being alive as anyone you will ever meet. This isn't just a kid making a hero out of her dad.

And me, I walked next to him in that festival light for almost 50 years. And then one night in February, his hand went still in mine. And here I am, same as ever, except quicker to anger and 13 pounds heavier. Shouldn't loss change a person for the better, forever? Maybe Will's curious phrase, it's like this, applies here too. This forgetting, this slide into smallness, this irritability and shame, this disorienting grief. It's like this. Minds don't rest. They reel and wander and fixate and roll back and reconsider because it's like this, having a mind. Hearts don't idle. They swell and constrict and break and forgive and behold because it's like this, having a heart.

Lives don't last. They thrill and confound and circle and overflow and disappear because it's like this, having a life. Beautiful. There's so much in there. I know. To talk about. I know. But that acceptance that you are not going to be able to hold it. Right.

That's huge. Well, it's freedom and it releases you from that pressure that you feel or that guilt that you harbor that you're supposed to be other than what you are. Yes. And the self-loathing that comes with it, because it is really astonishing to stand in front of a congregation of people and give a eulogy for a young person and then ever be mad again does not seem to go together. Like, I guess I had sky-high expectations that I would forever consistently

and constantly be different. And you're not. You're not. And that's weird. It feels like you're dishonoring this memory of this person. Yeah, I mean, it's sort of a comfort to hear that it's just like this. And yet it leaves me wondering,

well, why does it have to be this way? Like, why is the human mind, soul, spirit wired in that way? Like, how is it possible that, you know, two hours after some life-changing experience, you could get into a road rage or, you know, distract yourself with, you know, some small indignity and then beat yourself up for it to make it even worse? So, I blame our neurobiology. And by that I mean the way that we have evolved as a species to survive under the circumstances as they've changed over thousands of years. And I think it's astonishing the levels at which we are operating at any given moment. levels at which we are operating at any given moment.

Like I could be having this very deep conversation with you at the same time that I'm thinking, I would like to floss my teeth. I would like to drink this water in front of me, but I don't want to make any noise. I hope that reading wasn't too long for Rich. I wonder if other authors do readings on here or whether I just totally bugged him. Like I can hold in my head and in my heart simultaneously, I'm going to say two dozen different discrete thoughts that are operating at different discrete levels.

That's really something to marvel at and accept as the truth of our machine. Like, this is what our machine does. This is how the machine works. And as much as we can intellectually understand that, it's still the root of our suffering. Yes. Well, then... You can take a drink. You can take a drink. Thank you. I'm taking a drink now. I hope it doesn't make a horrible sound. No. Did you all hear that? I'm sorry. No.

Oh, you heard that. I bet that was my tummy. I thought it was mine. Right, right. I think about suffering a lot. That word is so dramatic and so apt. I mean, I'm not questioning it in any way, but it is incredible to me that that is the nature of reality for most people across time and across culture. We also don't calibrate it very well. Like the suffering that we experience when, you know, our child does something that irritates us, isn't that different from the emotional experience of something that really is grave and substantial? Yes. Well, I think when I think about my 2 a.m. brain, like what I'm cycling on in the

middle of the night, it always reveals what a ninny I am. Because I honestly, during the day, I'm thinking way bigger thoughts than what's happening at 2 a.m. At 2 a.m., like for instance, last night, I couldn't sleep. And it wasn't for quote unquote, the right reasons. It wasn't because I was coming here and I wanted to make sure that I was prepared and anything of import or that I didn't really kill it on my brother's birthday yesterday and maybe I should have sent him something. It was that my daughter is running a craft camp out of my house next week. And I wondered if I had made it clear that they are not allowed to paint in the house, that there should be a dry area and a wet area. That's where I was at 2 a.m. Nowhere bigger, nowhere more poetic or profound,

just in this total quotidian space. And I just wonder, like, what does that mean? What does that mean about me or us? Or do you have to find meaning in that, right? Like, it's just like that. Right, right. Why can't you just leave it there? Right.

Why do you have to engage with it? I mean, that's mindfulness, right? It's just to, I think, is to take, you should tell me, of course, but it's just to take a step back from it and watch it float by like a little boat on some water. If you can be neutral. Yeah, not that I'm any expert in mindfulness,

but I think that- You're not? That's why I'm here. Is that why you're here? Well, sorry to disappoint you. Okay, so I want you to make me lose weight. I want you to make me eat better and I want you to make me more mindful.

That's my agenda. That's a tall order. It is now unhidden. All right. Well, maybe that's another podcast. Okay. Today's about you. Can we have the conversion podcast where you get me righted?

I don't think you need to be righted. You don't? No. Maybe you need to release whatever pressure you're putting on yourself to be righted. I think you're pretty right. Mm. Mm. I wish I had more healthy routines. Yeah.

What's holding you back from that? Love of pajamas. Yeah. There's nothing wrong with that. Deep, deep, you don't have to give that up. You don't have to give like, there's this, you know you know i mean i bet it's true for many people that they're the window i mean the ideal window is the morning right i think there's a moment like once i've had coffee number two i'm a two and out each day there's a window there where i am at my sort of strongest intellectual capacity and i cannot imagine trading that out for exercise, but that's also the moment to exercise. Because really, once you get to 11, for whatever reason, you're just not going to do it. It's over with. Yeah. It's over. Well, if it makes you feel better, I have this

same dilemma. Oh, good. Because my creative capacities are at their best early in the morning, but that's also when I feel like I wanna train. And I think in retrospect, looking back over the last several years, I think that I've created this whole podcast as a distraction to conveniently opt out of having to write another book. You know what?

I really think that like writing is probably my strength and I'm so terrified of it that I will do anything. I'll train for some crazy ultra race or I will spend six years interviewing people just so I don't have to be with myself and the written page. I totally 100% believe you. I think this is such a common thing. I mean, I think Malcolm Gladwell and Michael Lewis and all these other big time writers who people want the next book from would also say that this is the most elaborate

procrastination scheme man has ever invented. Oh, and I have all these arguments to support it too. Yeah. Because I can reach more people instantly by doing this than two years of work on a book. I agree. You know, so what are you, what are you doing here? So then why do you have to write a book? Do I have to write another book? I don't know. According to Random House, I do. There's a contract. I mean, have to, what does that mean? Money has been accepted and spent. Oh, people get out of those things all the time. Great. You are cracking a new book right now though, aren't you?

I am. And I saw a social media post about that. Yeah, I thought, well, that's the kiss of death. You know, if you're like using social media to talk about your book, that you're definitely not writing your book. Like that's just, you're trying to get your hit early. Like you're not supposed to be able to celebrate

and like, you know, cross the tape with and get your high fives until you actually have finished your book. But when you, so then you put something out on social media so you can get some quick hits of like, you're doing it. Congratulations. And then you feel like you've actually done something. You haven't done anything. You got all the accolade. You got all the good, you know, vibes. Yeah.

Without doing the work. So I had written, I don't know, I'm going to say 38,000 words. So a normal book maybe is 50 or 60,000 words. And I don't know, I had this delusional sense that maybe it was going to be one of those like perfect little books that can be really powerful for people, like When breath becomes air or even about Alice, which is the Calvin Trillin book. That's my favorite, favorite example of how powerful a small book can be. And so I, I put it all on social media and I sent it off to Andy Ward at Random House. He's my editor. And then I went to happen to be in New York the following week and I went to see him

and he said, it's good. It's good. I mean I mean I'm gonna say you're halfway and I mean I just deflated like a balloon I was like halfway just say 70 just lie just say I can't go back to work with halfway if you had said 70 I'd been working on this afternoon uh-huh you say 50 I'm thinking maybe I'm gonna give the money back like it was so discouraging I didn't say any of that. It's just that was my own like internal dialogue. I just nodded and tried to act like a mature writer who could handle that kind of honest feedback. But my little like eight-year-old inside was like, I wanted to be more. Where do you get the gumption to be so open and honest and vulnerable in your writing?

Even like here. So I think that. You're very free with it. Oh, well, it's my nature. So it's not like an achievement of any type. It's not like I was one way and then I understood something and then I became another way. It's just sort of how I came out. But a thing that really, really affected me was population numbers. So I remember I went traveling when I was 25 for a year

with my best friend from college, Tracy Tuttle. And she teased me because one of the things in my fanny pack was this little book of world population numbers. And everywhere we went, I wanted to know how many people live in Bangkok, how many people live in Thailand, how many people live in Sydney, how many people live in Australia. And the idea of how many people there are was super freeing for me. It was crystal clear and continues to be that it does not matter one iota what I do or what becomes of me. Because there's just so many people. There's just so many people.

There's so many people. I mean, there's even so many people who write books. There's even so many podcasts, much less like actual people on the planet. Pretty soon there's going to be as many podcasts as there are people. Yeah. But go ahead. Right? So I used to do this thing when I was anxious.

If I was having trouble sleeping, I would like fly around. This is kind of weird, but whatever. I fly around and like lift the roof off of buildings and look in on everybody else's life. roof off of buildings and look in on everybody else's life. And, you know, maybe next door, there would be a kid, you know, buying a ring to propose. And then the next store, there would be a man and a woman in a big fight. And then the next room, there would be a baby being born. And the next room, there would be someone taking their last breath in front of their assembled family and in the next room there would be a person going crazy with uh because someone broke up with them and i would just fly around in this imaginary way and just get smaller and smaller and smaller personally and that you cannot there's no sense in holding back if that is your worldview. Super liberating.

Totally liberating. And I wish it for everyone. I don't think, I mean, I just don't think very much matters at all. Yeah. So do you have to, you see- In terms of like risk or putting it out there. What'll happen if you talk about- I just can't imagine.

I can't imagine. I mean, even if like today, but it does occur to me, I will say that. So, like, we were driving over here, and I did get a little nervous, and I thought, I hope I don't screw this up. And then I was very quickly able to say, what if you do? What if you totally bomb it, and you're way off point, and he doesn't like what you're talking about, and it's not a fit, and they never air it. And so what?

Right. It's a podcast. It's a day. Trust me. I'm the one who walks around thinking, like, I'm like, I'm not worried about you, but I'm like, oh man, like she's coming over. She's written all these amazing books. What am I going to talk to her about?

She's already said she's been on the Today Show. Like, why is she coming to my house? Well, that's a funny thing and points to the a very true thing that can be freeing for people is that almost everyone is just worried about themselves yeah so me worrying about whether i'm gonna like show up for you and you worrying about whether you're gonna show up for me is the absolute truth every time in every interaction in every scenario that every person is in every day yeah that's one thing you hear yourself tell your kids that people are self-obsessed

yeah so your daughter's like worried about her hair for the prom and you're like trust me every girl in piedmont right now is freaking out about their hair nobody is looking i mean as my mother used to say oh for god's sake kelly who's looking at you which people always laugh and think that that's kind of a cold thing for her to say, but I actually found it incredibly liberating. Like who is looking at you? Your mom's a character. Total character. I was just with her for like three nights in Philly. She still lives in the house. My dad died four years ago and she still lives in the house we grew up in. She's been in this house for 50 years. Wow.

She paid off the mortgage 20 years ago. Oh my goodness. It was $212 a month. And, yeah, she just goes to church every day, total devout Catholic. Every day. Every day. Because, as she will tell you, and as my dad would be so happy to tell you, the Catholics are the only people who will show up every day. He said, Lovey, I'm telling you,

you don't think there's a rabbi out there who would love to talk to his congregation every day? They won't show up. Episcopalians, they're not showing up. I don't even know the other religions. He's like, only the Catholics. Only the Catholics want to hear it every day. Well, as much as your mom is a character, I mean, your dad just seems like not only larger than life, but just the gift of his presence in your own life

and how it's kind of informed your own path. Like, it's an amazing thing. I mean, it's the best thing that has and could ever happen to me, being born his way. It sounds so amazing that it makes me angry. I know that that's some people's reactions. And in fact, when I was writing The Middle Place, I kept saying to my husband, like, you gotta help me. Like if I'm overstating things,

you know, and I said, and I do think there are going to be people here who didn't have an experience like this, who are going to throw the book against the wall and be like, Oh, for God's sake, I can't listen to this for one more minute.

And, and Edward bless his heart would say like, this is it. You completely captured him. I mean, bless his heart, would say, like, this is it. You've completely captured him. I mean, he was what all of us would aspire to be, which is to say, crazy present. He was just right here with you, nowhere else. And you were the most interesting person he ever met. Like, he couldn't wait.

He had 100 questions for every person standing in front of him. And he had no, in my observation, and Edward has backed me up on this. In my observation, he had no personal needs. He didn't need to be heard. He didn't need to be understood. He didn't need to be respected or honored or he just was for you he's just so interested in you and then when you left and the next person came he was interested in that person and he was very easily pleased like he wasn't cool like you know you say you have two girls and two

boys it'd be like god is that great two boys and two girls four you can play tennis like you know that would be very exciting to him which is to say that it was never um i never felt like an ounce of pressure to do anything neat to catch his eye like he just thought i was neat like no matter what there was it wasn't like you can do a cartwheel you're neat or you got an a you're neat or Or you got an A, you're neat. Or you wrote a book. Like, the last thing on earth he needed was for me to be validated in some external way. Like, my whole life was just like, lovey, you're a special kid.

And then, of course, you know, he's saying the same thing to my brothers. Like, it's not any minute. And so, if someone tells you that, enough. Just total, unconditional love and minute. And so someone tells you that enough. Just total unconditional love and support. And joy. He liked us. Like he loved us, yes, but he also really liked us. And that feeling like someone craves your company, you know, like every time he left the house, he'd say,

Lovey, come with me. Come on, we're going to run to the grocery store. Come on, we're going to go down to the dry cleaners. Like, come with me. They'll be nicer to me if they see you. And he wanted me to come to work. And everyone I met in his circle would say, oh, Kelly, Corey, you're Kelly, Corey. Boy, have I heard a lot about you. So that gives you this feeling like that you have somebody on your side. And that I really wish for everyone, that they would have this sense that there was somebody who was that on their side.

Right. So two things. I mean, first of all, how did that kind of, you know, inform decisions that you have made as an adult about what to do professionally and how to live your life? Like having that kind of support system and that, you know, person who just believes in you so completely i would imagine you know is very empowering i mean it's so woven into me that i don't even see it as a separate element that i would respond to to not have that yeah yeah um but i will tell you this that as i was saying before i am kind of moving very slowly on this book that I'm way overdue on. And it occurred to me, this is the first book I've written since he died, and I don't get to give it to him.

And that is like, just a little less, I got to find somebody to give it to that it will mean something to. And he was that person. So I finally uncovered like the, it's kind of the source of my ennui with it. Well, you can still give it to him in a different way. And also him being somebody who, for whom you didn't need, you know, external, you didn't need external validation. I know it was so much joy. I mean, he was so fun. Like he would come to all my book tour events. Like if I was within three or four States, he was in the audience. And that was really fun because my growing up, I have two older brothers and they're

both great athletes and they're natural and kind of everything. They're have two older brothers and they're both great athletes and they're natural and kind of everything they're good at darts and they're good at pool and they're good at lacrosse and golf and tennis and everything else that you put in front of them they can kind of pick it up um and i wasn't i was like the artsy fartsy kid like making collages in the walk-in closet like i i put all the coats on the first rack and then i would go below like my own little narnia and i he sold ads in magazines so we had mccall's magazines and good housekeeping magazines all over our house and i would make these super elaborate collages by myself and i had nothing there was nowhere to show up to like give me a round of applause until I was 40. And he had so much fun with it, like being there and watching it

and watching me do my thing. And that was fun for me. I mean, he's just a very contagious kind of joy. Yeah. And he's just constitutionally, he was constitutionally wired to be that way. So the second question is like, how does that, you know, as a parent now, do you feel like you have to inhabit that space or do you feel the pressure to, you know, exude some of that, those characteristics that were so meaningful for you, for your own kids?

Well, I am a super emotional person and I'm super transparent. So all that is to the good in terms of parenting typically, because when I'm happy, it's so clear and I'm so enthusiastic by nature. So I'm very excited about whatever they're up to. Um, but also I'm a mom and not a dad and I, and I have daughters. So it's a, it's like a single single sex relationship and those two factors really change it for me like i think that i don't not sure it's possible for a mother to be as carefree and um full of joie de vivre as it would be for a dad. Yeah, it's different. I mean, dads and daughters. Yeah.

And just it's more part-time. In my life growing up, he was more part-time than my mom. And then, so it was exciting when he came home. It was like a big moment. Right. And it was fun. Like, the whole house turned on. I mean, one of the saddest things about losing him

is being in that house and having the energy be less. And it's very palpable. Like we play games a lot as a family, like dominoes and hearts and Rummy Cube is our favorite. And when we, he was loud. He had like a lot of presence and he made dumb things super fun. And now we do the things we always did with him without him.

And it's quieter. And it's not as lively. And we do it. And the absence is so profound, especially in those moments. So does that make you feel sad or just reminiscent? So sad. Yeah, yeah. Well, the loss of him and the loss of your friend Liz

really kind of inform the book and this kind of meditation on human connection. And the architecture of it is really these phrases or words that you've identified to help us kind of bridge that gap and find a way to be more connected to the people that are meaningful to us. So let's talk about that a little bit. So it started at the dinner table with my husband because we were taught, who's a man, and we were talking about the difference between saying I'm sorry and saying I was wrong. And I was making this passionate case, as I want to do, about the humility that is baked into I was wrong.

And the other thing about I was wrong over I'm sorry, as just like a superior communication, is that what I think it means is that I agree with you fundamentally about sort of our shared moral code. Like that's not sort of highfalutin, but like when he said, if I, if Edward and I get in an argument and then he says, I was wrong, I was wrong. I feel like he came around and came back to me and we're standing shoulder to shoulder again. And we're seeing the world through the same lens again. Yeah. Everybody has this fundamental need to be seen. And when you say

I was wrong, you're seeing the world through that person's eyes. You're identifying with them completely. And you're agreeing with them about what is wrong and what is right. Like that's the little element that I hadn't really appreciated until recently, which is like, when you say I was wrong, you're saying, so we agree on what's right and what's wrong, and that's wrong, and we won't do that anymore. I won't do it to you and you won't do it to me because it's wrong it's so hard for people to do that i know i've gotten really good at it you have there's a yeah i mean and i've learned that through recovery and it's very empowering and i think we have this sense that if we say that that it's weakness or um we're we're opening ourselves up for attack or you know i don't know what goes on with us psychologically that prevents us from being able to do that.

But when you do it, like, if you truly are wrong and you say it and you own up to it, like, I was taught, you know, early and often, like, if you're going to eat crow, like, eat it hot. Like, just own it, you know? That's good. And it's the best way to heal and to connect yourself to other people and to take responsibility for your actions and make amends. And it's just the better path. It is. I think a thing I identified in myself is that part of my hesitation in saying I was wrong is if I say this, then I can't keep doing it. Yeah, that's scary. And I kind of want to keep doing it, whatever it is. like I'm kind of a selfish brat

and I just want to keep doing it this way and I don't want to put gas in your car. Yeah, that's a good point. I want to have the right to drive your car like into the driveway and leave you with like- Right, and make it your fault. One mile worth of gas. But if I just come in and say, you're right, I was wrong,

then you cannot do that again. Yeah, I'm sorry it just doesn't cut it. It doesn't, it's so overused. gas but if i just come in and say you're right i was wrong then you cannot do that again yeah i'm sorry it just doesn't cut it and i'm sorry it's so overused even when it's i mean if you say it even at its most honest iteration it still doesn't quite cut it but it's generally used as a sword you know oh i'm sorry i'm sorry you feel that way yeah i'm sorry that you you know don't like what i said or whatever it is. Or it's like, I'm sorry you're mad. Yeah. That's the worst.

Well, that's not at all what I'm asking for. That is not remotely satisfying for me in any way. So yeah. So that was a good one. And then another one that meant a lot to me that I spent a lot of time talking about and thinking about is I don't know. And the amount of uncertainty that we are required to tolerate is astonishing. So in that chapter, I tell a story about my friend, Mary Hope, who worked on having a baby for six years. And there was, it was both hard for her to conceive and hard for her to carry. And so every now and then she'd get one cooking and then she'd lose it. And then she'd go through this whole new process and she'd go to another doctor and all these doctors are saying to her, I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. And then she was finally turned toward adoption. And they worked for some number of really long months, putting together the documents and the legal work,

and then also like the marketing brochure. So I used to take pictures. So I took pictures of her and her husband and her dog and her house and her parents, and they put together this four-page glossy, and they send it to every Christian sorority in the United States and trying to be enough for some young mom to pick them in the binder. And then they got their first child, and then they waited and waited and waited, and they were back in it and trying and trying and people were using them. Like they would call and say they were thinking about picking them and would they take them out to dinner? Maybe they could talk. And you know, it's just really poor

kids who it's, it's, it's almost worth it to them to tell this lie just to get like a free meal. Yeah. And then they disappear. I wouldn't be able to reach them. Why is this happening to her? I don't know. And then one Sunday where she was supposed to go to Germany that morning, she called me and said, I'm sitting in hospital holding my daughter. And some woman had picked her and I don't know why. And that led her to be this certain kind of parent that I thought was really remarkable, and it struck me then and it strikes me now that she is sort of like, I don't know who this kid is,

but he does, but she does, and I'm more than happy to follow along. And that's really different than the way I was feeling about my daughter because I was thinking like, well, I know who you are. You're like a little bit of me and you're a little bit of him. And that's a very dangerous point of view to maintain in parenting, which is to say that like I know you.

And it puts you in a different position relative to your kid. Like it creates a set of expectations that may or may not be foiled ultimately. And there, and regardless, they're not, it's not pleasant to grow up in a side of like a bowl of expectations that you're either foiling or meeting at any given moment of any given day. And so that idea of like learning once and for all, as my friend did, that you don't know, you don't know who you're talking to and you don't know who's emerging in your house and you don't know this kid so well. And then reflecting on how well your parents did or didn't know you. I mean, really, my kids are 16 and 17. The idea that I know them is so ludicrous.

And all I need to do to remind myself of that is to think about how well my mother knew me at 17. I mean, that's just ludicrous. Right. So, that... So, when one of your kids comes to you and opens up about something that they're going through, like, how do you navigate that as a parent, even if you think you know the answer? the answer. Well, so that's tell me more. So that's the whole crux of the title is that my sense, my sort of definition of love involved activism. Like I'm a lean in person. I'm I want to help you fix your problems. I want to solve things for you. I want to smooth the road. And I want to give you everything I've

got. Like I have so much life experience. And then I also have so much that I've learned. And also I have so much love. Like there's nobody who loves these kids more than I do. Nobody. And there never will be. I'll be the most for sure. No question. And all of that is off limits and all of that is problematic to the assignment of becoming a person because nothing could be more disabling to a kid than to be given the answers and so and it's so hard but it's so hard to hold back from that oh it's impossible i mean yeah i she could say like five words and i i it's like a game show for me like i'm like i know the answer i can solve this problem for you and so tell me more it comes from my friend tracy title who i mentioned before i went traveling with and she's studying to become a therapist and she's just a

very wise thoughtful person and i have learned a lot from her over these 30 years we've been friends. And she was doing it with her kids. She was just say, tell me more, what else go on? And she was holding tight to that. And it was really working for her. And she was even doing it with her husband, which I found to be sort of amusing that like what works for the kids sometimes works for the spouse as well. But of course, it's true. And so anyway, that is the biggest thing is when they come to me, what I try so hard to do is let them work it out. And so I have another friend who's actually a therapist. Her name's Arielle,

and she sort of set up this idea for me between one end of the continuum is curiosity and the other end is judgment. That's a great way to look at it. And so you just want to stay as close to the curiosity end as possible. And then what happened? And tell me more and what else and go on. And, and really in a perfect interaction, you wouldn't say anything else. It's like inception. Because if you can definitely sort of guide that conversation through curiosity to this realization point that they have, then they can take ownership over that solution for themselves, as opposed to you kind of delivering some edict. Yes, and there's two things involved in that. One is to deliver the edict, to solve the problem, is greedy, and it's wrongheaded.

So chances are you are wrong about what you think the solution is, because chances are you haven't asked nearly enough questions to know what the actual problem is. Like there's the thing, and then there's the thing behind the thing, the thing behind the thing and the thing behind the thing. And so if you haven't asked 10 questions, you're solving for the superficial symptom and not the real problem. And then the second thing is it's incredibly greedy to take that moment of satisfaction away from another person. It would be like somebody cooking all day and then you coming in and taking all their tools away from another person. It would be like somebody cooking all day and then you coming in and taking all their tools away from them and finishing off the meal.

Like, you know, one would do that. Or, you know, if your kid was playing a sport and then you ran in at the last second and shot the goal, like that's a terrible thing to do. It's so blatantly terrible in other scenarios, but we're doing it all the time to each other in real life right i'm gonna and it's like um like my metaphor for the pacing of these conversations because i i get like energized by a problem i'm really psyched to like figure it out with you and then i think about um like a jewelry box with tons of stuff all tangled up in the bottom and like what what the appropriate pacing is for that activity is like pulling super slow and like spreading it out in front of you and seeing if you can discover like the source and maybe you unclasp one and you

can slide it out an inch but then you see that's wrapping tightly around a ring, and then you've got to move the ring. And then that's how slow I need to be in the moment when my husband or my girls start to tell me some problem is that slow. And that is not my nature. I tried to practice this the other day. Uh-huh. this the other day. My 15-year-old who you just met, Mathis, is going through some type of drama with her friends. And I'm just delighted that she actually wants to talk to me about anything because- As you should be. You should be delighted. At this moment in her life, these are not as regular as they once were in, you know, her current state of evolution. And I'm just like, please tell me more.

Please, you know, tell me more, tell me more, tell me more. And I think I ultimately kind of, I didn't like try to solve the problem for her, but I was like, well, maybe think about this. Or did you consider this? Yeah. So I feel like that might've tipped into, I probably could have asked much more questions. Maybe. I mean, I think I empathize. I am way more you than the person I'm describing.

But no, yeah, I think that, I mean, a thing I do sometimes that I feel kind of good about because I feel like it's so loving. I mean, not only do I know that it's coming from a super loving place, but I feel like if someone did that to me, I would feel like, wow, what a loving thing is that I might come back two days later and say, what's thinking about you? I was thinking about that thing you were talking about. I wonder if maybe that, that, that, that, that. And to me, I coach lacrosse in the spring. I coach, I'm the assistant JV lacrosse

coach at Piedmont High School. Yeah. And a thing that I do a lot is I'll come into practice and I'll say, Carly, come here for a second. I was thinking about your game. The next thing for you, like in the video game of your lacrosse experience, the next step for you to go from level six to level seven is you got to lower your top hand because you're not getting any whip on the ball, blah, blah, blah, whatever, whatever little thing. But coaching and parenting are different. But the idea that someone was thinking about you after the fact that they did, they weren't just so excited to dismiss your problem and go back to their own lives. Like I think it's so loving. Like if I call you in two days and say, Hey, rich, I remember talking about the people you should have anything. I thought of somebody for

you, blah, blah, blah, blah. Like that feels really like somebody's holding you or carrying you or walking with you in a way that I would think would be comforting. But I don't, I mean, I really have no idea what my kids think of me, to be honest. I don't know if they secretly find my advice wise and salient, or if they think like, she's batshit crazy. And, you know, the world gives her way too much credit. And like, don't bring that nonsense in here. Like, I have no idea. How do they feel about you writing about them so honestly well i mean they're teenagers so they like basically like living inside a lampshade with mirrors all the way around like it's just me me me and more me so they don't they're not even that aware of me as a writer like they're so in their own lives

that it's not super important to them. But then every now and then there's like a little signal that maybe this means something to them. Like they, well, Georgia just graduated from high school and there was a little dinner for her friends and all of their families. And a couple dads got up and gave toasts and whatever and then and i didn't quite know what to do and i was i mean i'm i'm inclined toward a toast and generally and and i'm irish and that's what we do and um there's a little greenie in that there's a little greenie

in that for sure for sure and uh but but also i was super feeling super emotional. And I was like, I think if I get up, the chances of me not crying are almost zilch. And I don't know how she's going to feel about that. Like whether that's going to be moving to her or just like, God, mom, what is your problem? And so anyway, finally she looked over at me and was like, are you going to give a speech? And I was like, Oh, she wants me to. And so I popped up and I sobbed through the whole thing. But it was in that moment, I was like, oh, she does like this part of me, or this is not horrifying to her that I would stand in front

of people and have something to say. It's interesting. I mean, my daughters just, like, they don't want, like, I can't even take a photo of them. You know, like they're constantly Snapchatting all day long selfies to their friends and keeping up their streaks and whatever it is that they do in that mysterious netherworld. But if I, you know, want to take a picture of my daughter at her 12th birthday party, it's like, yeah. And, and so, you know, I've had to be circumspect about what I share, you know, publicly about them. And because it's not their, they didn't make the decision for me to have a podcast and write books and have some kind of social media presence. And respecting

that is super important. But I've learned- Super important. Yeah. Sometimes what I do to make the right decision, this little game I play with myself, is would this be a good opening salvo in therapy for them later? Oh, I think about that all the time. That's a running joke. Show up in therapy and say, my dad was really famous and he posted pictures of me without my permission and he did it for five years and I hated him for it.

This is a running joke with Mathis every day. Like, oh, this will be the thing that you bring up in therapy, like constantly, you know? And it probably will be, you know? And that's some humble pie to eat and that's okay, you know? And trying to do this dance around her adolescence and try to avoid stepping on those landmines is like an impossible task. But yesterday I was telling you, Jaya, our youngest, it was her 12th birthday. And as a parent who has helped raise boys that are now grown and out of the house,

and now having this 15 year old who's almost 16, 12 is just, it's such a precious, beautiful time where there's innocence and joy and it's simple, but you know you're inching up against that moment where it's going to change. And I had this joke with Mathis when she was younger, like, okay, like I hear all this stuff happens when you're 13, 14, 15, like it's not going to happen to you, right? Like, no, daddy, you know, of course it happens. So now I'm doing this with Jaya, but I was able to be so present and appreciative of what was happening yesterday because I know, I know these things change. Right. And that's not unlike the underpinnings of this book for me, which is, I know that being here is not guaranteed. I did it. I saw it. I said the

words, I stared right at those kids. I watched the whole thing happen. Seven years, she fought this thing. And so wanting to be able to hold that, right. That, you know, something, but still you're going to be mad at her like later tonight. Oh yeah. It's already happened. Right. Right. Right. And that's just like something to deal with. Yeah. It's like this, it's like this, it's like this. Um, yeah. Another one that I like that I feel like we're sort of getting to anyway is onward, which for a while I had as, Oh, well, because that's a huge thing that I say to myself all the time is you know like if something is a flop or if i miss something or i screw something up that the it takes me a minute but i always find like oh well oh well and then but what i wanted to talk about in the chapter the

stories i wanted to tell were a little bit bigger than that, were about loss and divorce. But even my divorce friends say that there is this oh well moment, that they have to say, okay, oh well, that's what happened. We tried, he cheated, we tried again, he cheated again, I left. I've been in therapy. Like, oh, well, like, didn't work out. Like, I can't live there forever.

I can't live in the hot mess of that forever. I gotta move onward. And so then I came to Onward and I felt better about it. But I do think that that's, I mean, I believe that if you cannot say that, you are fucked. Right. Well, you craft this narrative about what your life is and it becomes a victim story. And then the retelling of that time and time again becomes an entrenched identity that

prevents you from growing and transcending that situation, which in truth is just something that happened. And the meaning of which is, you know, only that which you give it. Right. Which is negotiable. The meaning is negotiable with you. You can relitigate the meeting, the meaning. Right. But I feel like so many of us, most of us are stuck in stories that don't serve us. And we really just, we live our lives reacting to, you know, these events that happened in the past to which we've attached so much importance.

Yeah, yeah. I was just with my best friend from growing up. Her name's Allison and she lives in New Hampshire and she's a rich role fan and exercise enthusiast. Hey, Allison. And we were talking about the desire for consistency and how you want your story to have a certain shape and so you inflate parts of it that help make it seem like

kind of this inevitable path. And that wouldn't it be so wonderful if people could tell the story of their life in the way that was more true to the kind of ridiculous unfolding of this thing where it's, I don't know, 30% of it has nothing to do with who I am right now, but, but I want a hundred percent of it to take me there. I want to cross, I want to have this lead to that, which led to that, which led to that.

Like, it's like the first aid syndrome or something where you're like, well, I went to Stanford and got an organizational development degree. And then that led to working at Bain. And now I'm starting my own consultancy. You know, it's like, yeah. And also there were 10 other jobs in there. Like, I'm constantly telling my kids about dead ends, like abject failures. Like, I got 1090 on my SATs and I got into one college. And I am so happy that I have that story to tell them.

Because I was a photographer, I was a creative director of an educational software company, I was a little entrepreneur for a couple years making CD-ROMs to help kids learn Shakespeare. I got a master's in English at night for a couple years at San Francisco State. I worked for United Way for 10 years. It doesn't add up. It's not a straight line.

And I want everybody to be more honest about that and resist this temptation to clean up your narrative so that it feels more linear and logical. Yeah. Because I think we're doing each other a huge disservice when we don't share the dead ends. Yeah. I struggle with this a lot, and I'm interested in your thoughts on this. As somebody who gets up on stages and sort of has to recount your story.

I now have this one talk that I do that's like an hour long and I've done it a million times. And I don't know that I can do it anymore. Like I get up and I tell, and I was like, is this even true? Like, where am I diluting myself here? And I'm just bored of it.

And I don't think it's honest necessarily. I mean, it is honest. This is the facts of this is what happened and all of that. But there's so much more. And I feel like, I don't know, like I've become intolerant of it because I think that there is so much messiness in there. And that's where the real meaning and the beauty is. Right. And I think as a writer, like you're writing about your own life

and in the process of doing that, your writing informs who you are. Like, I'm sure it gives you clarity. You can look back and like, oh, now I understand something that I didn't even really understand. And when I get up on stage and talk about it, it continues to reveal itself to you.

And I think that's a really cool thing, but you have to catch yourself. I know. Right? Well, like when you're just up here, oh, I've told this story a hundred times. Why am I telling this story? Why did I first tell this story?

I know. Is this even really important? Right. Well, I mean, there's so much pressure, either real or perceived, that's coming from the audience, right? They want something. They want something definitive. They want something with a want something. They want something definitive.

They want something with a certain shape. They want an arc. They want a little resolution. And whether they really do is another question and a really important question, because maybe it's you and me in the audience. And the thing we'd love the most is the story that doesn't have the right shape, that doesn't have a resolution. But there is this feeling that you can't just get up there and tell them what a holy mess it's been. You've got to give them something. There's this thing called civic uplift, which is, I think it's a term from journalism,

which is like, don't scare the people. Don't tell the people too much about the FBI or the CIA or the Chinese government or Tiananmen Square or whatever. You can give them some of it, but you've got to close that article with a little something to have them hold on. I mean, if people knew how corrupt or how nefarious certain things were, these institutions that we're counting on, what would become of us? I mean, what would the civic spirit would just die? And I feel that

requirement. I feel the civic uplift requirement. And I totally relate to telling a story so many times that you're not even sure it's true anymore like there have been times you know the first book the middle place was really about this cancer stuff and then it just was an excuse to really tell these stories about my dad and look at what it means to be someone's kid when you're a kid and what it means to be someone's kid when you're all grown up that was like the real thing i want to talk about but in order to talk about that i had to tell this story of finding a lump in the bath with my girls and then discovering that it was cancer.

Oh, my God, it's stage three. Oh, my God, I'm in chemotherapy a week later and losing my hair and letting the kids shave it. And all those beats. I mean, if you tell the same story some number of times, I don't know how many times it is. Yeah, you get inoculated. You cross over until you can't feel it anymore.

And a huge thing that I was super afraid of with Tell Me More was to lose touch with the feelings, especially about Liz and her family. And I have not yet. It's only been out for, the hardcover came out last year, the paperback just came out. But that would be the saddest

day that would be a terrible terrible terrible day um and then the third thing i would say is uh you should totally stop giving that speech and you should totally stop doing that yeah it's fine you're done you did it and if they want to see it i'm sure it's on youtube somewhere and um i don't know i mean it would be an incredible assignment it would be an incredible self-assignment to say what as of this moment you know like totally up to speed to this moment and all my experiences and interactions what is the most useful thing i could tell the world and then how is the most useful way I could do it. That would be a great challenge.

Right. Because I'm guessing it's not the thing that you've done a hundred times. No, no. No. I mean, you know, life goes on. It's sort of like a story I've been dining out on for far too long at this point anyway. I guess, although I do want to like leave a little room for a thing being useful to others that is no longer useful to you. Well, I think it's not about abandoning the story completely, but it's about finding another way, a unique lens on it.

You know, because it's like I've learned how to be vulnerable and be honest and connect with an audience and then take them on a three-act journey that leaves them feeling empowered and capable. But I've just done it in a certain way for a very long time that now feels stale, but it may not feel stale to an audience. I'm sure it doesn't. That's the thing. Right.

So is it selfish of me? You know what I mean? Then it's indulgent. Oh, I wanna do, it's like the, we don't wanna hear you play the hit. You're not I mean? Like, then it's indulgent. Oh, I want to, I want to do, you know, it's like the, you know, we don't want to hear you play the hit, you know, you're going to play the hit. You're going to like play your experimental jazz. Like, dude, you're Paul Simon, play it. But I mean, back to you in the book. I mean, I think, you know, look, your, your, your, your gift is in storytelling. And this book is sort of like a self-help book in that you're giving people like,

look, these are certain things that you can do that you can incorporate into your life that will allow you to more deeply connect with other people. But you do it not by, here's your listicle at the end of the chapter. It's just stories. But by connecting people through storytelling

and by sharing your innate vulnerability and the things that you go through, again, back to where we kind of opened this, it's like this is how people are able to see their own journey through the lens of your own personal story. I mean, it's very exciting to be an observer, like a fine observer. That's really what I think that writing has created an interest and a capacity in me to be super tuned in. Partially at a very practical level, like I need stories. to be super tuned in partially in a, um,

it's just a very proud, a very practical level. Like I need stories. And so I have to look for them. And then partially in this miraculous way, they're just, they just pop up everywhere. There's always, it's always right there.

And that's what I discover all the time. Like even just, I mean, I could make a story out of today easily, easily just the moment of like having your daughter telling your daughter to turn off the rap music and you saying what's on your forehead and there's paint on her forehead. Like just the idea that there's a 15 year old, while we're in here, there's a 15 year old, like listening to Chance the Rapper and throwing paint all over a room. Right. Five feet away from here. This is, that's the story. Like I, and so to be tuned into your surroundings in that way, that's really what I'm working on the most.

That's mindfulness. That's presence. Presence. You know, if you're paying attention, nothing's boring. That's presence. Presence, yeah. If you're paying attention, nothing's boring. That's right. Right? That's right. That's right. Yes. But that's a skill as well, like one that you've clearly finally attuned. Well, if it's a skill, that's good news for everybody, because that means it's available

to be developed in all of us rather than some gift from above. You know, I love those Angela Duckworth concepts about growth mindset and fixed mindset. And, you know, I completely believe that because I have written these books and because I've written so much for short form stuff for magazines that I have refined, like I'm developing a skill and I'm nurturing it and I'm giving it my 10,000 hours and it's giving back. I mean, it's a super virtuous circle and it's just more satisfying.

I mean, I'm just more like a day has way more potential now because I'm super tuned in. And then the other piece is that if you've totally gotten over yourself and you have this sense of like everyone's interesting, then you can really have a big day. Yeah, the world completely opens up to you. Yes, and that's really the lesson of my dad, and it's also the lesson of The Neighborhood Project, is like you don't know who you're sitting next to.

Like cool it with the thin slicing. You don't know, you don't know her. There's so much more inside the people that are right around you than you're aware of. And if you can inhabit that humility and approach things that way, as my dad did, as we do in the neighborhood project, as writers do, then you're like on the hunt. Then you have this point of view that's like, what do you have?

Like, tell me more. What do you got? You got to drop the mask and your defenses. I know. And allow yourself to be open. And, you know, we're so, we're living these crazy fast-paced lives. I know, I hate it. We barely have time to say hello to the barista at Starbucks and on to the next thing.

And people are sort of obstacles, disposable obstacles, like in the path of us just getting through the day. Yes. And the big thing I'm having a lot of fun with is monotasking, which is just another way of having presence. which is just another way of having presence. But like I have, so Liz, my friend, but also my friend Christy moves in this certain way that I have observed. Like when she's making tea, she's just making tea. And when she's sitting with you and eating a bowl of pasta,

she's just eating the bowl of pasta and sitting with you. And that's not true for me. Like I was playing this- We call that a crazy person. Right, right. I was this person who's like totally getting off on, like, I'm putting away laundry while talking on the phone while like swiping dust bunnies against the baseboards of my house with my socked foot. Like that was,

that was like winning for me was doing those three things at the same time. And that is losing. That is totally losing. Like it can be deeply satisfying to swipe the dust bunnies off your wood floor. If you could just say, I'm going to monotask now. Right now, I'm just gonna do the dust bunnies. Later, I'm gonna sit on the phone and talk and I'm not gonna do anything else.

I'm just gonna talk to Christy on the phone. It's kind of a relief because you're like, I'm just gonna do one thing. And yet it's also seemingly impossible. Yes. But I feel like I'm getting better at it. You are? Yes. Like I can cook now. I mean, I'm not a cook. If my kids were here, they'd be like, cook, you're not a cook. Um, which I don't, I'm not very good because I'm impatient, but, uh, the, I can like boil pasta now and just boil the pasta and like not touch my phone and not turn on the TV and not like flip through a magazine or catalog while I'm waiting for the pasta. I could just sit there. And I'm trying to do this more in front of my children because this, these fucking phones

are so omnipresent. It's tragic. It is tragic. I was just with Georgia yesterday. We had to fly all day from the East Coast to the West Coast, and I was with both of them. And it was like, there's only the phone. There isn't, like I have, I see you have a notebook and a pen. Like I'm a notebook and a pen person myself.

I like to draw my calendars and put put that i do them in that's hardcore rows of four and put it in that way and like you know color out the travel days and put little arrows and like little clouds on people's birthdays and all that and i find that the attending to that, attending to my upcoming schedule in that way by hand, has this focusing effect and that you could not have on a phone. Yeah. I agree, and I have my own trials and tribulations with my relationship with my phone, but I'm deeply concerned about my kids, my daughters, and the way that they interact with it. And I often find myself at a loss as to how to effectively parent

through that because I can just see it happening in front of me. And on some level, like I'm on my phone too much. So, okay, I'm mirroring this behavior. I'm creating a permissive environment for it. So who am I to then erect these rules around it? And yet the rampant sort of, you know, it's just like zero boundary relationship that my 15 year old has with it leaves me like very scared. I had a, I had this, um, I'm big on like propaganda campaigns, like parenting through propaganda. So, and I've totally been exposed now. But what I used to do was

like say things with an earshot of them. So I'd say, oh, I'd love that Margie Brayer. I mean, I just looked over at her. She's just reading her book with her feet up. There's no phone in sight, blah, blah, blah. You know, like trying to lay it on really thick. And then George was like, Mom, I know you're saying that because I'm sitting here and you want me to get off my phone.

So I was like, okay, I've got to be sneakier. Way too transparent. Yeah, I know, I know. It worked for a minute, like when they were like eight. That was kind of motivating. But I do think, I wish, if I could go back in time, I would have total rules. Like I would say that you can't have your phone in your bedroom.

Imagine that. That would be huge. I don't know if you could hold that line, though. I would say there's no phones at our dinner table, which is true, and we don't take phones when we go out. So that's good. That's the only boundary we have. And I feel I've done them a terrible disservice. We've had a moment where Edward and I got together and we like ginned up our courage and we were

like, we are going to fight this war. We are going to say at eight o'clock every night, we put our phones to bed, one, two, three, four, and they just sleep in their little bed together. You know, remember all that? That was like somebody's big idea. That lasted like, you know, a couple of weeks. Oh my God, two nights. Yeah. Two nights.

Because Edward was like, I have to do this. I have to do this. I'm like, oh boy, here we go. Yep. There's the chink. I know. They're gonna climb through that hole so fast. And once the pattern is,

once they've established a certain relationship with it to like backtrack against that is like really difficult. Another thing I try to do is just improve what was on their phone. So I'm always showing them my, I love Instagram and I love my feed because I have National Geographic and I have the Onion, which I think is totally hilarious. And so I have this cool flow of animals doing weird things, beautiful sunsets, et cetera, very, very funny onion headlines, and then some friends. And I think maybe the effect I might have on you is to say, look, I know you're going to be on this thing forever. the effect I might have on you is to say, look, I know you're going to be on this thing forever.

Why don't you put some things in front of your eyeballs that are going to make you feel differently? That's cute. That's cute, mom. Right? First of all, that violates the tell me more rule. I know, I know, I know.

It's like laden with advice and judgment. God damn it. It's not easy. with advice and judgment. God damn it. It's not easy. But you know what? And then in Snapchat, I'm like, what? Again, everyone can laugh now. Cue the laughter. I'm about to expose another idiotic pipe dream of mine.

Snapchat is so weird to me. For one minute, I was on Snapchat, so I could Snapchat with them. I'm trying to get in their line of sight. But then they just send a picture of themselves. And I think, why don't you send a picture of the world you're in? Even if you're at the supermarket, send me a picture of the supermarket. Or you're on a run, send me a picture of your run. Or you're with your friend Jenny.

Take a picture of you and Jenny. But Snapchat's just a series of weird pictures of yourself. So there's no information. There's nothing to connect about. I don't know anything new about you for having seen that. It's just this like tyranny. But Kelly, the whole point is that you're not supposed to understand it. And this is part of what it means to be growing older.

It's clearly a generation gap because I go through the same thing. And it's about streaks, like just tap your it kind of thing. Have you seen that there's people, I don't know where they are, I think it's at Apple, who were young and were engineers and were building this all around neuroscience.

They know exactly how to get you hooked. Then those people got married, and then they had children, and then those children became teenagers. Then these people were horrified at what they had done, and now they're trying to unravel it. Yeah. But, you know, total Pandora's box. The podcast that I just put up last night is with a guy called Cal Newport, who's a professor of computer science at Georgetown. And he's written, he wrote a book called Deep Work that's amazing about how to, you know, sort of be productive in a distracted world. And his newest book is called Digital Minimalism. And it's all about this and all the science and psychology and money that's been funneled into these devices to addict you and to sort of hij be more diligent about erecting boundaries between these things that entice us, right? minimalism, not just with, you know, their digital devices, but in all regards and people who are,

who are choosing experience over salary. And, you know, there is a real interesting shift in not just millennials, but the, you know, the generation behind them in terms of like how service oriented they are and how it's impact that motivates them. And that's very different from when we were kids. So despite the kind of apocalyptic, you know, sort of picture that we can paint with these things, I see like a lot of, I get a lot of hope and inspiration from that particular type of mindset. Yeah. I mean, it's the, the, the, my friend Meg works for LinkedIn and they have all this research about this generation and how much they're willing to give up in the name of purpose and mission and deeper work.

But the thing I see with my kids is there's a whole bunch of monkey mind type thoughts where you're hopping between apps and you're watching TV TV and then you're looking down and you're doing everything at once. And then there's long thoughts, like long, slow thoughts, like the kinds of long, slow thoughts you have when you're reading. And so the antidote is reading. But I think that the But I think that the poison of smartphones is that they make long thought and mono thought much more difficult. Because I think it's a skill that atrophies. And I think you have this.

Yeah, you have to go way out of your way to just be bored. And in order to do what you do, you have to have extended rumination periods. You have to be able to think and be alone with yourself and all of that. And that's very much been eroded. And when you're doing that, because you're so used to like being productive, quote unquote, and like setting them up and knocking them down and like you are with your phone. And then you switch to like a manuscript, the feeling of like, this is glacial progress is so pronounced. I mean, it just, it just feels like a complete waste of a day. I know in 20 years, like what are the books

that are gonna be coming out? Right. You know? Half a page. Andy Ward says short is the new long. Yeah, well, I hope this pendulum, you know, listen, the pendulum always swings back. Let's hope that it does.

I mean, I think, you know, podcasting is an antidote to that. Like, you know, who would have thought people would listen to two hour conversations? I know. And yet they do. They do. Because it goes backhour conversations, and yet they do. They do. Because it goes back to storytelling, really, I think. And this innate, hardwired need that we

have to connect with other people through their testimony and their stories. And podcasting really fills that in a world in which we've been programmed to just watch soundbites and five-second interviews. It is. You're right. It's like a leading indicator podcast. The interest in podcasts and the success of podcasts and the success of long form is like a really positive indication that there's a persistent need that will win the day. And I'm sure your husband and Ev could speak to this as well in terms of the success of Medium, because Medium is all about long form as well.

Yeah. You know? Isn't that clever how Ev Williams, like, started Twitter? I know. And reduced us all to 140 characters, and then he's like, that's crazy. We need space. We need time to think. Right, we just went completely the other way.

Uh-huh, uh-huh. I love him. And then it became like a thing. We just went completely the other way. And then it became like a thing. Like, it's interesting to reflect back on the evolution of that because we went through that period where it was all about bloggers and blogging. And like now nobody blogs and, you know, it's podcasting now for the moment and YouTube and all these other things. But if you want to write a thoughtful, long form piece, you don't have to have a blog and put it on your website and try to draw attention to you.

You put it on Medium. Yeah. Where everyone else can find it. You go where the eyeballs already are. So I love what he's built there. Yeah. No, I'm really encouraged by Medium. Yeah.

Well, we've got to round this out here. What are we at? Oh, we're almost at two hours. That's good because I have to go potty. Do you? Me too. Well, should we like take a break? Is that what cuts this thing off? Generally someone is like, if you have to go to the bathroom, we just add it. We added it. You want to go? No, no, no. We'll round it out. Um, I'm not in a hurry though. We can keep talking. Yeah. Um,

back to, uh, back to storytelling and back to, back to the book. I mean, what, storytelling and back to the book. I mean, what is it that you want people to really get out of this latest work? Well, I have this vision always when I'm writing that I want them to finish the book and like clap it together and kind of weave it and say, this is totally worth every minute. Like, I don't think it's a small thing to read a book. And I think even really thoughtful people don't read that many books in a year. You know, I don't know what percentage of America reads a book a month, but I bet it's not much. And so I'm asking you to do something that's quite unusual.

And so I want so much for you to feel like it was like worth every minute. Now, that being said, like people tell me they read tell me more like in an afternoon, which is awesome to think that they couldn't put it down. But it's also like, it did take three years to write. Yeah, it's a little, it's a little funny that there's just like something to keep in company while the laundry dries um but anyway uh i just want them to feel like it was time well spent the time in the pages was well spent i want them to smile a lot yeah i like it when people say they got emotional i mean i just like it that it moved people um if maybe there's like one more minute of presence and consciousness and, and here-ness that you would get because you read it, that'd be great. I do feel like it's a very cool service

to provide, to name things that are like slightly difficult to name for people. things that are like slightly difficult to name for people. You know, I like the snap your finger moment. Like, yes, yes, that, that, that feels like. That moment of identification. Yeah. And, and like, thank you. Like, that's exactly what I was feeling. And I've been trying to say it and understand it.

And, and, and you like help me cross the finish line on something, that's very satisfying. So any and all of that would be a win for me. On that subject of this desire to have people kind of read it and close the book and just go, oh, yes. So good. And you tell this story, I heard you tell this story about you have in mind these two friends of yours that you respect. Tracy and Doug Lane.

That you keep in mind. I do. When you're writing. They're crazy smart. And the idea of what they would be feeling when they're reading your book. Yes. So my husband went to business school at Stanford with this guy, Doug Lane, and he's really bright and he's a great reader. And I think he probably reads 20 books a year and his wife is equally bright. And so I always picture them in bed and Tracy's got one of my books open and Doug looks over and says, how is it?

And then I have this horrific feeling that she's going to be like, it's okay. You know, like kind of like a lover, her butt and that makes me want to work way harder like you know there is the kind of intended reader or whatever but if i could and edward you know i mean i think a lot about edward like i'm i mean i do have this sense that i'm like representing him out there and i don't want to make a fool out of myself and as much for my own sake as for his like i don't want his wife to be this ass who writes these shabby books that are you know she whips them off for his own sake you know i want him to feel like he's perfectly happy to be known by this or involved in this whole enterprise right and uh so there's always a moment with every book where i say okay

you can read it and you have to tell me you have to protect me you have to say it's not ready yet because a lot of people in the system in the publishing system have too much work yeah and they might not say it's not ready yeah they might let it go because they're they're working on 20 books yeah and it's like a b. It's a B or a B+. A B plus is good. Put it out there. Yeah. And then I'm a B student, to be honest.

I wasn't a grinder. I'm very sane, as we've discussed. I know that this doesn't matter on any cosmic or even microcosmic level. And so it's hard for me to get wrapped up around the axle and stay up until four in the morning, like wrestling a sentence to the ground. But then I do have these like peak moments where I say to Edward or to Andy Ward at Random House, like, don't let me off easy. Like, give me the real business, like make me work harder. Well, your works are so deeply personal that, you know, the

is like a strike through the heart. It's not like you're writing some antiseptic book about a subject matter that you research, like this is you and your life, right? It's so personal. And so I wonder whether, you know, this idea of having people in mind and wanting it to be this for others, like that can be very paralyzing. I know for myself, I can't think about those things. I have to just write what feels right to me in a vacuum. I have to be the audience of it. When I start thinking about other people, I'll start editing myself or being circumspect about things that I shouldn't, that don't serve what I'm trying to express.

Yeah, there's almost always somebody extremely important that a book involves that I could never not be thinking about. And tell me more, like Liz's husband Andy and her kids were super important to nail it for. Did you let them read parts of it before it came out? Yeah, for sure, for sure. But the idea that this, I mean, that's both super freeing and deeply satisfying. It's like, maybe I just wrote it for them. Maybe it's just for them. And if it helps it be 1% less awful, then I'm done.

And it does. I mean, I know, because now I've lost somebody, even though it does. I mean, it's, you know, I know, I know, because now I've lost somebody, even though it was in totally fair time. He was an old man and, you know, was a perfect out. But still, I love it when people bring him up. And so when you write a book and you put somebody's mom in there

and you're talking about her over and over again, and then she's in the world. And that's really meaningful to them. So at some level... And you can still deepen your own relationship with that person beyond the grave. Yes. Oh, for sure. For sure.

I mean, you know, mostly I think about her. I mean, mostly I think about what she was robbed of, not so much like what I can continue to relate to with her, but more just like, I can't believe you don't get to be here. I cannot believe that I am like hugging your child and you can't do it. I can't believe I'm looking at your child. Like I'm looking at this kid, her son looks so much like her and he's a whirling dervish.

He never stops moving. Super kinetic, great athlete. Um, and just, just never stand still. And every now and then when I'm with him, he stands still and we stare at each other and he knows what I'm doing and I

know what I'm doing and maybe she knows too, but I mean, we are right. She is right there. What do you do when you get stuck? Writing? Yeah. I put it away and I go like clean cabinets.

I mean, I get stuck all the time. Toenails. Yeah, exactly. It's more ordinary for me to be stuck than to be in flow. Like, so, I mean, you know, it's interesting. I've been thinking a lot about talking about work and talking about the thing you're working on and whether that's a good thing or a bad thing.

I had heard a writer say once that they never talk about it because part of the reward of having written is being able to finally share it and talk about it. And if you give yourself that reward prematurely, you're less motivated to complete the work. And I think there might be something like that for me, which is to say that I totally relate to you thinking, maybe I'll just podcast forever. Like, why write a book? Like, this is so satisfying. And this right now is so satisfying for me. Like I could do this all day long. And way more satisfying than writing.

Right. I'm only glad to have written. I'm almost never happy when writing. I think that that is very honest and probably the experience of most writers. I guess, right. You know, like,

I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm,

I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm,

I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm,

I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm,

I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm,

I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm,

I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm,

I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm,

I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm,

I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I know, who wants to be pulling their hair out, like at the kitchen table, working on one paragraph for six hours. And there's just so much failure. There's so much failure in writing. Like the, there's the success rate is like 5% or something. It's just really, really small. It's almost nothing in my life has prepared me for this much consistent,

relentless failure, which is to say like I can read way above the level I can write. can read way above the level I can write. And that it's never lost on me that I'm not able to achieve what say Marilynne Robinson is able to achieve, or Jessamyn Ward, who I'm reading right now, or Laurie Moore. And, you know, I have a master's in English literature. I was an English major. Like I understand the difference between literature and what I'm doing. And I love what I do, you know, and I love Anne Lamott and other people who do what I do. And that, that whole genre, I think it's really useful, but I know that it's not. Um, I mean, if I had the IQ of like a Marilynne Robinson, if I could talk about like a person who's able to hold a slow, complex thought and like develop it,

I mean, I can barely read it. It's just at the edge of my intelligence level to be able to read it and process it and understand it. And so I'm always seeing that delta, which means that I'm inevitably failing at some level. And that's something to process. You got to do something with that sense of it. And you got to say, yeah, yeah, that's the feeling again. Or you like, look, it is like looking in the mirror. Like some days you look in the mirror and you're like, I'm cute. I look all right. And other days

you're like, I cannot believe I've ever been kissed. Like, I am atrocious. I have age spots and wrinkles and my neck has dropped into a waddle and my shoulders are sloped and my belly sticks out and it's just horrific. And then the next day, you know, no, it's not bad. I'm not doing too bad. And it's just like that with your writing. Like, you open it up and you think, oh, that's good. That's a good paragraph.

Like, the thing I, I really like. I still like it. And then I could have opened to another page and read it and thought, I cannot fucking believe I put that in print. I'm going to be stuck with that forever. My name's attached to that shit. And it's all within the same book. It's all within the same experience.

You might get one beautiful passage in, in a hundred pages and one more, something lovely, something that you would be so happy to be known by in the middle of some stuff. That's good. It's good. Like it's a B it's definitely a B B plus I'm really selling the hell out of my book right now. Yeah. But no, look, here's the thing. I mean, it depends on how you define good writing. Like I read your book and I go, I can't do what she does. Like I can't, like the manner in which you're able to take the ordinary and the mundane and the very personal and translate it into a way that's just, it just makes you feel

warm and fuzzy. It makes you feel loved. It makes you feel comfortable and at home. And it makes you feel warm and fuzzy. It makes you feel loved. It makes you feel comfortable and at home. And it makes you feel seen. And there's a gift in there, some kind of special sauce that you have that may not be that which these luminaries that you regard do, but they don't do what you do. Right. You know? Right.

And that's just saying, let's just all bring our gifts forward and see how it works out. Right. So is that the advice that you give to aspiring writers and young people that want advice from you? Yeah. I mean, one thing that I think is very funny and relatable is that many many people who say ask for advice about writing i will say do you write now and they say no and i say well then my first piece of advice is you should write the secret to writing is writing yeah like it would be like me saying like i really want to run a marathon and you're saying do you run right no, and I don't even own running shoes. It's like, okay, well, I know step one for you, kid.

So I do think that there's something, it's like a magical aspiration that many people hold secretly or not, that they want to write a book someday. But I think many fewer people actually have the intention and are actually taking steps in that direction. many fewer people actually have the intention and the, and are actually taking steps in that direction. Once I know someone's taking steps in that direction, then I do think it's kind of fun to try to help them find it, you know,

to find some kind of voice that's different and that's theirs. And I think most people are super hung up about how they sound on the page. And I feel like the goal is to sound more or less like yourself for me, for the kind of writing I do. I mean, if I was writing a novel, it would be very different, but I'm not using voice in a specific way like that to achieve some artistic end. I'm trying to just give you, give you it as I feel it, as I experience it in my voice. And the,

so the thing I do is just read it out loud. And if it sounds like me, if it sounds like something I would almost say, you know, maybe on a really good day when I was hyper-articulate, but still within the range of something I might say, then it can stay, then it belongs there, then it's going to flow in your ear. And a thing that is said to me sometimes that feels very validating is, oh, you talk just like you write.

And I think that's good. Then I wasn't false and I didn't flower it up too much and I didn't try to sound smarter than I am. I think the mistake that gets made with that is that people think that means it's easier, but it's actually harder to do that. Way harder. Right.

Way harder. Yeah. Way harder. Yeah. Because you've got to find some flow. Do you have certain practices? Do you keep a journal with you? Like, oh, I'm in the carpool lane, and Judy just said the craziest thing to me, and you write it down.

Sometimes I do voice memos on my phone, which is easier for me. But no, I used to write in a journal here's a crazy thing i had a journal that i was writing in for like seven years and i cannot find it and i have two teenage daughters yeah like where's the journal who's reading the journal because i mean there is some shit in that journal that should not be read by my children. Because they don't have the capacity to understand it. I mean, they will someday. If they could read it when they have children, they're more than welcome to read it.

They'd laugh all day long. Right. But right now, they'd be so sensitive. So, yeah, I don't know where the journal is. It's blue, royal blue leather pebbled journal. If anyone has it out there, I'd really like you to send it back to me because this is weighing on me just a little bit. Yeah, but no, I don't have any super strong processes.

I mean, I guess the only thing I would say is I listen differently. Like I'm listening really carefully. And not only am I listening to what stories you're telling me, but I'm also listening to your response to me. So if I'm in a room with some women at a cocktail party or having coffee or whatever, and I say something, and then people start to crowd around or there's a big reaction, I definitely take note of that. I already know it's resonating before I put it on the page because I've touched it publicly in a conversation somewhere, and I can see it. It's almost like a stand-up comedian working out their thing. But it's more spontaneous than that.

It's just something to note. It's not like I go in thinking, oh, I'm going to tell that story about my grandmother and see how they respond to it. It's more like I started telling a story about, I'll come home and say to Edward, so interesting like I started telling a story about, like I'll come home and say to Edward, like, so interesting. I was telling a story about my grandmother

and like all of a sudden like the room got really quiet and everybody was listening to me and I thought, oh my God, I guess that's like a thing. I guess people would really wanna think about that. Yeah. It's like that. It's like that. Yeah.

I think we did it. All right. How do you feel? Good. that. Yeah. I think we did it. All right. How do you feel? Good. Yeah. Hot. I know. We had to turn the AC off, so it's getting warm in here.

Turn it back on. I know. Thank you. You're so welcome. It was beautiful. I could talk to you all day. I loved it. Yeah, it was really fantastic.

You absolutely delight me. Aw, thanks. And I am gonna go back and read all your other books. Yeah, yeah. I'm excited about that. Well, it'll only take you like two, three hours. Oh, thanks. And I am gonna go back and read all your other books. Yeah, yeah. I'm excited about that. Well, it'll only take you like two, three hours. No, I'm a pretty slow reader. Thank you for having me.

Yeah, of course. So if you're digging on Kelly, easiest way to connect with you, kellygorgan.com, Instagram. Instagram, I like Instagram, just Kelly Corrigan. Cool. And are you doing any public events anywhere? If people wanna come and connect with you? No, not right now.

All right. Well, tell me more at bookstores everywhere. Yeah. All right, cool. Bye-bye. Thanks, peace. I gotta tell you, I'm quite taken by Kelly. I don't know how you guys feel,

but I suspect you share my feelings. Let her know how this one landed by sharing your thoughts with her directly. You can find her on Twitter, at Corrigan Kelly. Also, don't forget to pick up a copy of her new book, "'Tell Me More." It's not that new, but it's been out for a little bit, but it's still kind of new.

Her latest book, "'Tell Me More." Check out her TED Talk. I'll put links to all that stuff in the show notes on the episode page at richroll.com, where you will also find copious additional resources to expand your experience of the Kelly Corrigan universe beyond the earbuds. Last chance for tickets for my live event, September 27th at the Wilshire Ebell Theater in Los Angeles in conversation with special guest Paul Hawken. You can grab those remaining tickets by clicking on the appearances page on my website at richroll.com or on the posts that are pinned to the top of both my

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Share the show on social media, subscribe to my YouTube channel, Spotify, Google Podcasts, all that good stuff. And you can support us on Patreon at richroll.com forward slash donate. Massive appreciation to everybody who collaborated to create this podcast adventure today. Jason Camiolo for audio engineering production, show notes, interstitial music,

Blake Curtis for additional duties for audio engineering, production, show notes, interstitial music, Blake Curtis for additional duties on audio today, and also Margo Lubin, the two of them together create the video version of the podcast on YouTube. Jessica Miranda for graphics wizardry, Allie Rogers for her beautiful portraits, DK David Kahn for advertiser, relationships, and theme music by Anna Lemma. Appreciate all you guys. I love you. I can't do what I do without you guys. And I will see you back here in a couple days

with another hotly anticipated, long awaited conversation with the great Guru Singh. Guru Multiverse is back. That's right, Multiverse. It's no longer Guru Corner, no hard edges, just expansiveness. Guru is returning to the podcast. It's called The Seed of Infinity, and here is a taste. Until then, live a little, love a lot. Peace, plants, namaste. Consciousness is a seed, a seed of infinity, a non-identified seed, no specific identity, but it's the vast

potential that's the same as in a seed. Two oak acorns, right, two oak seeds. You put one in a forest that's very crowded and it will grow in a particular way to accommodate the crowd. That same seed put it into a forest that is actually quite sparse and it will grow to extend itself into the sparse nature of the forest. Now one is not wrong, one is not right. They're both what they are. This is in fact what we're moving towards. The more we will understand, the more we study consciousness, the more that we're going to be able to get along. Thank you.