The Rich Roll Podcast - Ken Rideout On Why Everything You Want Is On The Other Side Of Hard

Episode Date: March 9, 2026

Ken Rideout is a masters world champion marathon runner, recovering opioid addict, and the author of the new memoir, “Everything You Want Is on the Other Side of Hard.” This conversation explores the childhood trauma Ken spent decades outpacing, the addiction that nearly destroyed him, his wife Shelby's cancer battle, and the paradox that the very things that propelled him to extraordinary heights became Achilles heels. We discuss his relentless mindset, the role of pain and suffering in igniting willingness, and why the real obstacle was never the competition. Along the way, we arrive at a truth familiar to every addict: self-awareness will avail you nothing. It's what you do with it that matters. Ken is a real one. Enjoy! Show notes + MORE Watch on YouTube Newsletter Sign-Up Today's Sponsors: BetterHelp: Get 10% OFF the first month👉🏼https://www.betterhelp.com/richroll  Rivian: Electric vehicles that keep the world adventurous forever👉🏼https://www.rivian.com  WHOOP: The all-new WHOOP 5.0 is here! Get your first month FREE👉🏼https://www.join.whoop.com/Roll  Momentous: High-caliber human performance products for sleep, focus, longevity, and more. For listeners of the show, Momentous is offering up to 35% off your first order👉🏼https://www.livemomentous.com/richroll Check out all of the amazing discounts from our Sponsors👉🏼https://www.richroll.com/sponsors Find out more about Voicing Change Media at https://www.voicingchange.media and follow us @voicingchange

Extreme discipline has given me the life I wanted, but my kids are like, my dad is crazy because I'm constantly on them. Can't be easy to be your kid. No, it's not. And what they see is intensity and aggressiveness. And I don't want to put this burden on them. We have Ken Rideout, one of the world's pre-eminent Masters athletes. A former prison guard Wall Street trader. He has overcome addiction.

He's been put in that fight or flight situation, and he's always picked fight. There's an element of me that's tortured, and my protective mechanism is to have a hard exterior. All of the hard charging, driving, and trying to win and be the best is just an extension of wanting validation. There's something missing in my life that I have to do, which is... Ken Ride Out, you made it here. You're back in the studio. Round three. This is going to be a targeted conversation. We're here to celebrate Ken's brand new book called, the other side of hard.

You did an incredible job on this book. It's memoir essentially, but it's also interlaced with all of these kind of, you know, like life learnings and wisdom about like how to approach obstacles and how to get unstuck and we're gonna parse all of that. But before we even go into it, I wanna kind of land on the obsession piece right now.

Because so much of the book is about your obsession, your obsession with, with becoming someone in the world, becoming this master's world champion, winning races. Initially it was finance, and this is a moving target for you, but underneath it all, there's always this layer of obsession that's driving everything. So talk a little bit about your relationship with that.

I think growing up the way I did around, then people will see in the book around like drug addicts and basically mediocre to sub-mediocre people, it was, and I don't know where it came from, I have a brother who's 11 months younger than me who never went, didn't finish high school, never had a job as a career criminal, in and out of prison.

And I come to the realization through writing the book, like, I hated him as a kid, hated him. I was like, why is this kid behaving like this? Because that was my worst fear. I don't want to be a loser. I wanted to be a winner. I wanted to be respected. And what I came to realize is, like,

He was just probably had some mental health issues and was dealing with parents that probably didn't have the tools to understand, identify, and cope with those problems. And as a result, he was just floundering. And being around that kind of behavior and that kind of chaos, like, my personality is what it is. Like, it was the same then as it is now. Like, I was like, I don't want to be mediocre. Like, being like the people around me scared me because I just saw them going nowhere. They weren't experiencing life. As a kid, I was like adventurous. Like I wanted to like go to other countries and travel and do the things that I ended up doing.

Live in London, you know, go skiing in Europe and do these things. And I didn't have any role model for that. And there was no like I didn't have a friend down the street. Like the most successful person in my neighborhood was like the guy was a mailman. And his wife was a stay-at-home mom, stay-at-home wife, which was all to me. that was like they were like the model of success. So it wasn't like I was looking at people flying private and driving Mercedes-Benz and I was like, that's what I want.

I just wanted a lack of chaos. I wanted the life that I have now. I literally wanted the life that I've created for myself. And if anything, I would say the obsession or the torture that I deal with is feeling like if I let off the gas and stop obsessing over continuing to succeed, It's like I said, every time something good happens, I can easily convince myself that that was lucky and it's never going to happen again

and I have to stay on the gas. And that's something that I'm hyper aware of and have worked on extensively and spent time. I spent almost a week at the on-site workshops, which for people who don't know is like the Hoffman Institute or Bridges, it's like a trauma healing center and it was like an intense five-day eye-opener for me because I didn't think I had childhood trauma.

And even saying that, like, I don't, I never, ever, like, I'm almost afraid to identify myself as a victim. I'm not a victim. I'm like, shit happens to me and I can control my reactions. And but it doesn't change the fact that traumatic things happen. And you know the expression, the most traumatic thing that happened to is the most traumatic thing that happened to you, whether it's sexual abuse or getting bullied. And for whatever reason, my brain doesn't process trauma very well. and I hold on to it and it like grates on me. And going to on site forced me to sit with my own thoughts

without distractions, without a phone. I mean, I was such a dope. I didn't know that like they were taking my phone. I think I was naive to what was coming and almost like I blocked it out of my brain. For years I'd have appointments with psychologists and just it's completely out of character for me to just forget meetings and not put them in my calendar.

but subconsciously I would do it almost weekly to the point where I'm like this is crazy I've never had anything like this where this kind of psychosomatic reaction is happening where I'm like purposely blocking out the meeting but I don't remember until an hour after the meeting oh shit I missed my meeting with my therapist because I didn't want to deal with it and go into on site and saying like look I don't think I have trauma and then sitting with the woman and having her break it all down for me was like a punch in the face that was like really difficult and super uncomfortable The way I see it is you definitely suffered a tremendous amount of childhood trauma, in my opinion. You grew up essentially impoverished. You suffered abuse, bullying. Then there's the addiction piece, which is a coping mechanism for that trauma that serves its purpose. And that's why us addicts kind of end up picking up in the ways that we do. And then you get sober, you discover running. And running becomes, a new way to cope with this childhood trauma

that you've compartmentalized. That's right. And in your mind or in the addict brain, the solution to this problem is just to run more and run further and run faster. And you ran as fast as you possibly could. You ran so fast that you became the master's world champion, you know, the fastest 50 year old to ever run a marathon

and you cross the Gobi Desert and won that race and all these epic stories. you know, we've talked about on prior episodes and are in the book, but ultimately, um, this is a means to try to control something that's uncontrollable to create certainty as a response to that chaos that you experienced. Like I'm gonna control my environment.

If I'm obsessive enough and I train hard enough, then everything will be fine, right? But it doesn't matter how fast you were, you were the fastest in the world, but you still weren't fast enough to outpace your past, which eventually catches up to you. And what's interesting, and I don't think we really fully explored this last time you were here,

is the fact that all of this stuff starts to come up in the aftermath of all of your financial and athletic success. You've done it all, you're at the top of the mountain, you've got all the metals and all the stuff, and then you start to sink into a depression, you have suicidal ideation, and you're having issues in your marriage. Like all of these things

coming up, which must have been very confusing. Because Ken, you know, like, you're not signing up to go to onsite on your own, like, because everything's great. So I want to understand how all of this stuff started to come to the surface and, you know, what that experience was like and how you made this decision, like, okay, now I really have to, like, face this. Again, I never want to be mediocre. I don't want to be bad at anything.

And that includes being a bad husband, a bad dad, a bad friend, or like bad to my which my concern for myself always seems to come last. And that's part of the problem. And what I realized is just like with getting sober, at some point I come to the realization, like this isn't getting better unless I do something about it. And I wish that it was easy, but you've hit the nail right on the head.

All of these things are coping mechanisms and trying to control the narrative. And I'm trying to impress people that I don't even know or I don't even like I don't know who I'm trying to impress or if it's I'm trying to impress myself. but I'm clearly like trying to fill a void in my life. And I realized that just like with getting sober, like I can't do this by myself.

I don't know, I don't know why I'm feeling like this, but I should not be thinking that suicide is like an answer to my problems. And as a result, I wasn't really having problems with my marriage. I was having problems with myself. And unfortunately, my wife lives with me and she gets the brunt of my emotional struggles.

and the way it manifests itself is by trying to control everything around the house. Who left this effing milk out on the counter? Who left the garage door open or the garage door open? There's like frigging coyotes in the garage, you know? And as a result of not having control, I would lash out at everyone in the house. And I realized, like, this is, I am becoming a person that I'm ashamed of. And I just, I had a friend, actually, a guy I bought my house from

who played for the Tennessee Titans, a super nice guy, Chris Spencer, he had said to me that he had gone there to on-site. And I knew enough about Hoffman Institute from people like Rob and Andrew Huberman and listening to people like yourself and talking about all these different options. And I was like, I'm never unaware of my problems. I'm not, I'm never unaware that I'm running as a coping mechanism. It's not like I'm like blissfully unaware and just like trying to fill voids. Like I'm hyper aware. But like in, as they say in AA, self-awareness will avail you nothing. It's one thing to be aware of it.

And it's a very different thing to actually confront it and, you know, do the work and unpack the whole thing. No, that's a great point. And my wife would remind me all the time just because you've identified what the problem is here right now doesn't make it right. What are you going to do about it? And then eventually I was like, I've got to do something about this. And going to on site was a good first step. But I would be lying if I didn't say if I said it was a cure-all. But I will say for a few weeks after leaving there, I was on like Cloud 9.

I was euphoric. I was like high on life. And eventually, like anything, if you don't do the work and keep on it and integrate the therapy into your life, it all falls to the wayside. And that has to a certain extent happen and going through the process with this book and the anxiety and stress I've been feeling with this book is like, that's now on my list of things that I have to do again is like go back for a tune-up. So I'm looking at like Hoffman Institute in different places, just trying to do different things

because all of the issues that you've identified are my reality. And it's like, they're not going to, these problems aren't going to fix themselves. And to the people that, you know how it is when people follow you online, they think they know you and they admire certain things. And I love and respect people that like me. I like people that like me. But there is a part of me that's like, be careful who you like admire. Like this, everyone's going through their own struggles and no one's perfect.

And I think sometimes, you know, social media becomes like a highlight reel of your life. It's like, look at my life. I'm great. Look at my kids. Look at these races. I'm not out there posting like, I'm running right now thinking like, how am I going to get through this week emotionally? You know, and, but like you said, identifying the problem and doing something about it are two different things. But I am putting together a new plan.

And I definitely am aware that shit needs to be identified. So here's the question for you, Ken. would you rather spend three days, three sleepless nights and three days running across a barren desert trying to win a race? Or would you prefer to spend three days with your wife in an intense therapy setting around like your trauma and your intimacy issues and whatever else? which would you opt for? Well, obviously the right answer is to do the work to fix my, like, not that my relationship needs fixing and we'll get into my wife's cancer struggle recently, cancer battle. And my marriage is probably better than it's been in a long time because when we're

dealing with like difficulty, that's where I thrive. So, yeah, obviously I'd rather run across the desert because to me, I convince myself whether I believe whether I believe whether I really believe it or not I've controlled the narrative to the extent where I'm like I can't lose I'm going to race I'm going to train like there's no way I can win but I'm going to race like I can't lose so for me there's something fun about like I'm going to figure this out I'm going to get these guys in the end and that's like an uncomfortable challenge but the idea of sitting and like talking about my feelings like we are right now is not fun for me but I but I also want to be honest with people and honestly I love and respect you and when you ask

these difficult questions. Yeah, I'd much rather talk about how great I am and how good I am at running and all the bullshit, but I know that that's bullshit. This is what people really need to hear if they're going through it. No one needs to hear about, you don't really learn much in winning. You just learn, like, I had a great day. When you get your ass kicked in life or in a race or in any endeavor professionally or otherwise, that's when you learn what you're all about, because it's very difficult, especially when you go through something publicly or professionally where you have to deal with setbacks and other people are like standing there watching, whether you're getting fired from a job or like not finishing a race or getting divorced. It's like, and that's what I say to my wife,

I'm like, even when we were struggling, I'm like, we have to fix this because it's not going to get better. We're not going to like, oh, I'm going to meet someone else and they're going to be a perfect fit. Like, no one's going to be a more better fit for me than my wife. The problem isn't her. The problem is, like, we just have to figure out how to deal with this together. And while obviously I always accept all the responsibility, like a true addict, you know, we both could do a lot of things better. And I think that the nice thing about my wife is she's aware of that too. She's going through cancer treatment right now, breast cancer treatment. How is she doing? She's doing great cancer-free, all done with all her treatments. She had a mess second.

And now she's just, you know, they do, she had a choice of a double mastectomy or single. She had a single, I mean, in terms of breast cancer, and I was just telling your wife, Julie, about this. And I'll come back, but come back to the beginning. But in terms of breast cancer, we had best case scenario. It was stage one. It was early. But when you hear your wife has cancer for me, again, wanting to control everything, I'm like, oh my God, this is a death sentence potentially.

Like, I'm scared. And I'm like, the problem in my brain is snowballing. I'm like, oh my God, this is catastrophic, but I can't let her know that. I have four kids, like, what am I gonna do? Like, I was, I never felt so vulnerable in my life. I was like, I'd rather have terminal cancer than have her go through curable breast cancer right now.

That's, in that moment, that would have been my choice. And we're feeling sorry for ourselves, as I was explaining to Julie for a few days, maybe a week. And then at some point, just like with preparing for a race or something, I just looked at it and I'm like, you know what, F this, enough is enough with This ain't gonna fix itself. Sitting here crying and whining about this shit

isn't gonna fix it. We need to like toughen up, get with the program and like figure out what the game plan is and bring some like toughness and aggressiveness to the treatment because crying about it isn't gonna fix it. Like it's happening. Like it's like being drafted into Vietnam. Like you're going.

Stop crying. Pick up that gun and learn how to shoot it because otherwise someone's gonna shoot you. And that's kind of how. And she, to her credit, was like, You're right. You're right. This moping around isn't going to do it. I said, you're going to, like, write your own comeback story and be an example to the, I'm getting emotional. To our kids and to your friends about like, this is what toughness looks like in the face of adversity. And like, the choice is yours. How you behave right now is going to stay with you for a long time. And as someone who has gone to like through events and quit and given up and dealt with the bullshit that comes with quitting, it's so much easier to be tough and be tough right now. and she did it.

And we, I was, like I was telling Julie, we went to the doctor. Like, here's the plan. And, you know, it was incredible. Like, tons of people reached out. Andrew Huberman was like, I'm going to have this person call and that person call. We went to the first doctor's meeting in Nashville with St. Thomas Ascension. And they were like, here's the plan. Boom, boom, boom.

And I was like, I don't even think we needed it. They were so confident. And everything that they told us happened. Instantly, she was in for MRI, the biore. this, that, and then two weeks later, they're like, all right, the surgery is scheduled. The only thing I'll say is they were, like, really pressing for a double mastectomy.

And I was like, man, do we, should we take like a less aggressive approach and see what happens? It's stage one. There's nothing to indicate she'll get it again. In the long run, she got single mastectomy. She was, in hindsight, was really happy that she made that decision.

So then they remove her breast, put in an expander, and then slowly inflated every day. And to my wife's credit, We eventually, like, learned to laugh about it because, like, she would be getting in the shower and I'd be like, yo, you look crazy. She would laugh, you know, for the first few days, she was like hysterical. Like, I look awful. This is not good. But eventually we laughed about it.

And I'm like, yeah, you look crazy. You've got like one 20-year-old boob and one 50-year-old boob. And I didn't know how else to deal with it, but other than to laugh. And she laughed about it. And now I said, you're going to be 52, be a cancer survivor and have new boobs. It's going to be great. And she's cancer-free now. Cancel free.

That's good. I'm really happy to hear that. I know you guys have really been going through it. But it's no surprise that, you know, in a chaotic, cataclysmic situation, like, that you just, that's like a dopamine surge. Like, oh, now I can, here's my, here's where I come alive and I can attempt to control this and, you know, create a plan of action. And it's like, you're hardwired to like step in in a situation like that because of

the background that you had, like the childhood that you had. Like, it's all related. Yeah, well, to that point on the flight out here, I'm sitting in, uh, I was sitting in one row and a guy right behind me, I get up to go to the bathroom and an older guy sitting behind me. And he, and as I'm coming out, he's like standing in the, in the walk, in the aisle, but he doesn't, like, something is off. And I'm like, huh, what's going on there?

And he's like struggling to get the thing. He's probably like 70, 80, a little bit overweight. And he just has a crazy look on his face. I'm like, yo, you all right? And he's like, like, stomach. I'm like, no, this guy ain't right. And I snatch him up, like, under his arms. And I'm like, yo, are you all right?

And he, like, stumbles into the bathroom and, like, falls onto the toilet. And the flight attendant goes, oh, my God, do I need medical? I'm like, yeah, you need medical. But people were just standing around. And like, I was like, on this guy. I'm like, yo, you all right? And it was one of those things, like, to your point, when anytime I've been in those situations where something's going on, I'm like, who needs help?

Not that trying to be the hero. It's just like my instincts just took over and I was like, yo, what's going on? You know who was sitting right there and watch the whole thing? Your friend Anthony, who- Anthony Zimitti. Yes. Yeah, he texted me to know about it. Oh, he told you.

Yeah, yeah. It was scary, man. I was really scary. Wow. But he ended up getting, he ended up kind of pulling himself together and he was okay. And then I was like, you're going to have an ambulance for this guy? Like, he's definitely not right. Uh-huh.

And they were like, yeah, they're aware on the ground. Yeah. But it was scary. I think what separates your story in this book from other versions of it, you know, in this genre of, you know, kind of ultra endurance athlete, addiction and recovery story is the fact that you had the courage to tell this childhood trauma, you know, story. And it creates this arc because it goes from here are the mindset tools, which are very much like be hard and, you know, never quit. And we're going to talk about that. All the way to the conclusion of the book, which is essentially. this epiphany or realization as a result of all the work that you've done to heal your relationship with your past that the real obstacle is the self.

And you have spent a lot of time in your life like focused on other people in the competition and I need to beat this person to overcome my imposter syndrome or to feel deserving or worthy of love. And you know, all of these things that are very kind of like human drives but to understand like ultimately it's about my relationship with myself and it really isn't about all these other people.

No, that's exactly right. This past fall I helped coach the local cross-country high school team and some of my talks to the kids. Like I just would get so fired up for the kids and I think the coaches in the times were like, oh, this guy is intense. because I would be like tell the kids, yo, you think that this preconceived notion of like cross-country guys and nerds, these people don't know what it's like to be running one, two, with 500 meters to go.

They don't know what that kind of toughness is, the toughness that you have to find within yourself to get up and run in the morning. I was like, whatever you think about yourself, it's the truth. If you think you're a loser and a nerd, then you probably are. But if you think you're tough and you're a champion,

then you can be that too. I would get so excited talking to the kids, and that was the, I don't know what got me going on that, tirade, but when I think about the internal narrative in relationship with self, I really believe that what you think about yourself becomes the truth, and it's something that I've struggled with. And when I catch myself getting into that negative self-talk,

how would you take care of your mind and body if you had to take care of your best friend or your spouse or one of your child's bodies for two years. I had to take your soul, put it in someone else's body that you love more than anything. How would you take care of that person? And when you think about your life in those terms, and like even with regards to addiction, you would never do to someone else what you would do to yourself.

I would never put drugs in my child or my wife or anyone else, but I wouldn't think twice about at a period in my life of doing those things to myself. This episode is sponsored by BetterHelp. You know, I was reflecting this morning on how my life, and really the life of my kids, our family altogether, it really just doesn't work without my wife. She quietly carries so much. And I think this is the case for women across the board who go wildly underappreciated for their gift to hold space for others while selflessly spinning a zillion other plates at the same time. And that kind of emotional labor is very real.

And it deserves care. It deserves support, which is why I'm so bullish on BetterHelp, because it provides this place to pause, to reflect on the roles that you're playing and to make space for your own well-being. BetterHelp connects you with fully licensed therapists who work according to a strict code of conduct. They start by asking a few simple questions. to understand what you're looking for, and they handle the initial matching so you can focus on your goals. If the fit isn't right,

you can switch to a different therapist at any time. With over 30,000 therapists, BetterHelp is the largest online therapy platform in the world, having served more than 6 million people, with an average rating of 4.9 out of five based on over 1.7 million client reviews. Your emotional well-being matters. Sign up and get 10% off at BetterHelp.com

slash rich roll. That's better help.com slash rich roll. This episode is sponsored by Rivian. When I think back on some of my fondest memories from childhood, 100% of them happen outdoors, on mountains, in lakes and oceans, getting muddy in the local creek, riding my bike around the neighborhood, basic good stuff that leaves me thinking a lot about what kind of world we're leaving behind for the next generation.

And this, in a nutshell, is what Rivian is all about. They're an all-electric vehicle company founded on a simple idea. Keep the world adventurous forever. I've been around RJ, the CEO, and his kids, and it's so clear to me that this is his animating purpose. But he's not just thinking about them. He's making decisions based upon what our kids' kids' kids will inherit, which I love.

And that philosophy is just deeply embedded in everything Rivian. These are zero tailpipe emission vehicles without sacrificing power or performance. The interiors use thoughtful, sustainable materials that feel premium and intentional. And the first 10,000 miles are powered by 100% renewable energy with a growing charging network doing the same. It's not about choosing between exploring the world and protecting it. Rivian is like a passport to both, meaning that when I'm driving the vehicle Rivian loaned to me, I'm not just driving through the world I love.

I'm driving for it, which is a pretty special feeling I want everyone to experience. Your story is so incredible. I don't want to presume or assume that just because you've been on the show before, that everybody who's watching or listening to this has heard that. So I want to give you the opportunity to tell it in your own words, like a sort of truncated version of what we've talked about in previous episodes. The memoir is basically a memoir of my life from growing up in Boston in the inner city playing competitive hockey like on all the travel teams. It was my whole life.

Cut out of high school, I worked in a, as a guard in a prison for four years, a prison that my stepfather had been in previously. My brother would eventually be an inmate there a couple years after I stopped working there. Thank God. I worked there with guys like Mickey Ward, though. They made a movie called The Fighter about him, just legendary tough tough guy. and he played in there. You were a prison guard to him. He was a guard with me. Oh, he was a guard.

And his brother, Dickie Ecklin, who was played by Christian Bill, was the inmate. It was the inmate, right. And Dickie is like a crazy. Like, Dickie is as crazy in real life as he is in the movie. And it's funny, like I'm friends with a guy called Mike Lee, who goes by Bean Shooter on Instagram, crazy guy. But those guys from Lowa were just all crazy. But it was everyone at the prison was like,

one, one, like, bad decision away from being inmates or the guards were one decision away from being inmates themselves. It was a really crazy environment. And the guards were like, at times for me, worse than the inmates. It was very crazy environment. And I talk about that in the book in detail. But went to college, worked at the prison to pay for school. I played football and hockey in college, eventually going into my junior year, I get cut from the hockey team and that sent my life into a spiral. Like once that was taken away from me, like I very much identified with being a hockey player. And in my mind, I'm like, all right, I'm going to get through college and then I'm going to go like maybe playing the East Coast Hockey League with my buddies

or, you know, in a perfect world playing like the HL, you know, like the right below the NHL, even though that was a bit far-fetched. But in my mind, that was a reality. And if I couldn't get there playing, I'd get there fighting. Like, I was just, like, willing to do anything to stay playing hockey. So when that was taken away from me, I started to, like, experiment with cocaine. I think it's always funny to say experiment. I started to abuse cocaine with my friends. And, uh, that set off, like, a three or four year Odyssey with my, uh, Boston friends. Like, these were crazy, crazy guys. Um, lots of teamsters, different, uh, blue collar guys. And this is Boston, Boston. This is Boston. This is Boston. in Boston. I moved to New York and started working in finance and I was hanging out with

this guy, Mike Peltier, who introduced me to the world of finance. I was a pharmaceutical sales rep playing in a men's hockey league in Chelsea Piers. One of the guys who happened to be on my team was a guy called Mike Peltier who worked as an interdealer broker, like a broker of commodities. Interdealer meaning like brokering trades between institutions, never dealing with like retail mom and pop customers. It was like banking. And unfortunately, he died. 9-11, Mike Peltie, sweet guy, French-Canadian guy, awesome hockey player. So we went out one night while I'm in New York.

I've been there about six months, and I said to him at one point, I'm like, Mike, do you know that I've been here six months? I've never seen one single fight. And he's like, why would that be unusual? I'm like, when I grew up, and I don't say this to be like a tough guy, like I know who I am.

I don't have to pretend to be tough. When I would go out with my friends from like 19 to 24 at the bars in Boston, and every single night, either one of our friends would get into a fight or someone else would be a fight. It was like a really, really crazy place. And this is like not in like some dumpy bar.

This was like in Fanio Hall in like the touristy area, like in like higher end bars. But it was just a super aggressive place. Even now when I talk to friends from Boston, they're like, yeah, that was really, it's a really unique place in that way is that I don't know if it's like

people feel so oppressed and aggressive that they're fighting with each other, but it was chaos. And that was like my reality. I never thrived in that. I was never like I was like a normal person. I was like, oh my God, I'm so scared. There's going to be a fight.

But I also had this thing where I'm like, well, if there's going to be a fight, you at least better start throwing punches because otherwise you're going to be of the victim. And I didn't want to be the victim, even though I was scared like I would tell my kids. I know sometimes it's scary when things are about to go down, but you just have to learn how to do certain things scared because everyone is scared. No one gets into a fight and is like not scared. So anyway, I moved to New York. York, meet Mike Peltie, tells me they've got a trading assistant job on the trading desk he's

working on. I get that job and I'm getting bullied like crazy by these people, which is crazy to say, I'm like boxing for the New York Athletic Club. I've worked in a prison. I wasn't the kind of person that was getting pushed around necessarily. But working on a trading desk is like being the freshman on a football team, there's a certain amount of hazing that's like kind of customary and accepted, but I was not comfortable doing that. And eventually like the guy, one guy, particular harassed me so much that I slapped them in the face and they fired me right on the spot and I was so naive. You had just gotten hired too, right? I was there for like, yeah, I was there for a couple months and I was so naive. I didn't know we had competitors. I didn't know there were other

trading desks competing against us. I didn't know that I would get two weeks of severance. When they told me they were going to give me like two weeks severance, I was like jackpot. I was like, yes, I've got a two week runway to figure something out, even though I don't know what I'm going to do. I have a degree in sociology and I have no finance experience. I've been working. two months and I don't know anything that's going on. And then I was lucky that some guys in Enron heard the story and the guy who was the most senior trader was a Boston guy from Martha's Vineyard and he loved it and was like, hey, I called this desk. There was another trading desk that competed against the desk I worked on that what, but they weren't very good. But this senior

trader at Enron was like, you're my sales guy and they're going to hire you. And literally they double, I was making 40 grand. They hired me within two days making 80 grand. And then very quickly, they were like, okay, your new salary is like $125,000. And then I got hired to go to London to run. I got hired by Canter Fitzgerald, roughly a year before 9-11. But because I had a contract with a competing Wall Street firm, they said electricity trading and natural gas trading was relatively new. Go to Europe, London, and set up this trading desk for us.

And it was like a dream job. I mean, it was like expat, meaning they paid my rent. I'm talking like the nicest house I've ever lived in at the time. I had a brand new Porsche. I was like a finance guy. I had everything. Concord back and forth, London to New York. And around that time, I was introduced to opioids.

And I had an ankle surgery, got some opioids. And as soon as I took them, all of my feelings of inferiority, all of my fraud complex imposter syndrome, which I was struggling with working in finance, like what I was describing earlier with racing, every time I would do a big trade or get a job, I was like, oh my God, I'm so lucky. They're eventually going to figure out, I don't know anything about what's going on.

I'm just like faking my way through this because I had good client relationships. So I'm living in London, and that was the first time I got sober. While I was in London, I went to NA meetings over there, got sober, just white-knuckled it, and Enron went bankrupt.

My life was turned upside down. They're like, okay, that job's over. 9-11 happens at the same time, and everyone that I worked with on the trading desk in New York, all died like 2,300 people. The office was on the top floor of the World Trade Center. So you're employed by Canter Fitzgerald, working for them in London on 9-11.

I presume you're at work because it's later in the day. And essentially, you watch in real time as something like 685 of your coworkers. die essentially instantly. Yep. We were on. I mean, what was that like? What was that like being in the office at that time?

It was so shocking. It almost like didn't register. It was like you were watching something, but it was hard to believe it was real. And we have an open line of communication with them, like a squawk box, they call it. So you can push a button and speak on a speaker into the whole trading floor

or the specific trading desk that you're looking for. So if you're trading interest rate swaps, and you need a price in New York, you'd push the button and say, hey, where is this particular month pricing? So when it first happened, like everyone, I was like, what the hell? Someone flew a Cessna into the World Trade Center? Wow, that's crazy. And then very quickly, you see the other plane hit, just like everyone else. I'm like, this is, this, you know, you're watching on TV.

It doesn't seem real. And eventually we're talking back and forth and it's calm. I assume you're in, like, the phone lines between your office and the New York office are wide open at that point. Initially very calm, like guy, because don't forget, in 1993, someone lit off a bomb in the, in the basement of the parking garage of the World Trade Center. And a lot of the people that were working with us had either been working there then or knew someone who had. So it wasn't like, oh my God, this had happened before. The crazy thing is I had a friend who worked on the 80th, Drew Turnbull, who I worked with for years. He wasn't at Ken or he worked somewhere else. But he was in the building in 1990, in 19, in 19, 1993 just got out of school. And he was on like the 83rd floor. So the bomb was off and they're like, okay, evacuate. Electricities out and stuff.

And you know, think about this. When you go into an internal stairwell, there is zero ambient light. It's pitch black. I mean pitch black. And I know because during the blackout in like 2002 of New York City, I lived on the 32nd floor and had to walk up and down a couple times to get in and out to eat. And it was so dark in the stairwell. You're trying to count to the floors.

okay, 10th floor, 11th floor, and every single time I'd go to the 37th floor and pop out on the roof, I'm like, how did I miscount by five stories? It was that kind of like disorienting. So now during 93, they're trying to get down like 80-something stories. It's pitch black and the entire hallway is filled with black smoke. You can't see it, obviously, but you can smell it. And there's people are like shoulder to shoulder trying to hustle out of there. He said when they popped out into the sunlight, he was like every single person like firefighters, everything on them was black from the smoke, their face, their clothes, just pitch black except eyes. So when it happened, when 9-11 happened, it was kind of calm initially like, hey, guys, get out of there. Like this looks, and then when the

second plane hits, you're like, yo, get out of there. And then eventually the lines went off. And, you know, you're still like, oh, there's people up on the roof. There's people down. Maybe only some of the stairs are gone, you know, because obviously the plane went through and jacked up a bunch of stuff. And then eventually, I mean, the stories that came out after it, like people that would come to London eventually who'd survived, either weren't there or they were on lower floors. They'd come. There was one guy, an Orthodox Jewish guy, he was like on the, you had to take two elevators to get to the top. So you'd go to a landing like on 80-something and then you'd get to the next elevator that would take you to 105. And he was standing with other people on 80-something. And when the

plane hit, like jet fuel filled the shafts of the elevators and the doors open. So he's standing to the side. The door opens and a frigging fireball blows out and there's a woman who worked at canter standing there and the fireball engulfed her, but she's still alive, but she has no skin. This guy basically carries her down 80 stories with no, like the pain. He's like there was, I mean, guy must have crazy PTSD. He's like the pain from this woman. As a man, as a carrying her. I'm thinking she's going to die. She has no skin and she survived. It was just, but there were dozens of stories like this that came out later. But when it happened and the buildings went down, it was just like no one really said anything. It wasn't like screaming. It was

just like, holy cow, like this is crazy. Just like everyone watching it was. And then it just turned into like literally a war zone at the office because people who survived set up shop in London. So everything was trading centrally from London. And it was literally. literally looked like like mash. It looked like a military setup. There were cots everywhere, people working around the clock. And then there were some,

a lot of clients that were like, wanted to do business with Canter to like keep them going and like help them because they had set up all these kind of relief funds. And yeah, man, it was, it was dramatizing, but something that I think in going to on site that I probably had blocked out a lot of it

and didn't really register with me. Again, I never wanted to feel like, woe is me. So maybe I like put up, some defense mechanisms, like this didn't really affect me, even though it did and it took a little while to kind of work through that, but.

But it was a moment where you realized, hey, maybe I'm not really valuing this life that I have. 100%. And I need to make some changes. It was a catalyst for that. Yeah, that's when I got sober the first time and was doing really well, but I wasn't like working the program the way I should.

I was like a sober addict and went back to New York And just like you would imagine, soon as I had like a hard day of something, I would take some more pills, and then it would lead to weeks, and then I'd get sober for a week. And then eventually that was like a year's long odyssey where I couldn't get sober for a week without help,

without help of an outpatient detox, which is so during this time, I meet my wife, and I'm in the throes of addiction, but I'm like, I'm very much a functioning addict. It'd be like someone who's like a hardcore drunk, but during the day, they show up, they work, and then they're just fun guy who's like, oh, it just happens to be out every single night drunk.

And eventually she catches on, realizes like, this guy is either crazy or on drugs because this is not normal behavior. But you were using when you met her and started to date her. So she only knew you as that version of Ken. Exactly. Who was like just crazy extreme.

I would just be like, get a... Because when you're not using, you're not crazy or extreme. No, not not to that extent. And I was also making a lot of money. So I would, you know, I'm dating her. I wanted so desperately to impress her. She grew up in a beautiful family. Parents are still married.

All the kids went to college. They all get along. They're just like the perfect normal family. I mean, they have their own stuff going on, but nothing relative or comparative to what I had seen. So to me, I was like, they have everything I want. So to a certain extent, it was almost like, I want her to be the mother of my kids.

And I kind of want her to be my mom, too. in a subconscious way. But I was always aware of that, but like you say, just being aware of it and doing something about it doesn't necessarily justify the identifying of the problem.

So I meet her, going through it, we break up, get back together. And because I have money, I'd be like, hey, let's go to the Bahamas. Oh, there's no flights.

I'll get a private jet and we'd fly to the Bahamas private. And this was overwhelming to her because she was working as an actress. Her parents put her through school, but they didn't pay her bills or anything. So she was, like, as a sign language interpreter, a waitress, doing odd jobs, trying to be an actress, and, you know,

struggling, living with a roommate or her best friend. And then I come along and I'm like, you know, at one point we were talking when we were first date and she's like, oh, if I ever like made a lot of money, first thing I would do is go like to Victoria's Secrets and buy like a hundred pairs of new underwear or something. So of course the next day I send a hundred pairs of new underwear. I was like, you know, whatever I could do. She she wore, she wore, she needed glasses for certain things so I bought her LASIC surgery. But she was never motivated by money or not like she doesn't have designer bags. She's just not into stuff like that. So to her, it was very overwhelming and off putting to be like, I don't want everything handed to me. But my way of showing her love was to give

her everything that I always wanted, which is, you know, material like whatever I wanted. And I had the means. But it's also compensating. Yeah, exactly. And she saw through that. And it made things difficult because in my mind, I'm like, why are you upset? Because I want to do nice things for you. And she's like, I don't need you to do nice things for me to like, like you. Eventually, we work it all out. We get married. I get sober here and there. And we start the adoption process as soon as we get married. Because we were going to have our own kids, but we also wanted to adopt kids. And we get matched with a daughter in Ethiopia. And at that point, I was like, that's when I said, like, I'm going to get sober or kill myself. You're chipping at this point, right? Yeah.

And you're hiding it. Yes. So I'm using opioids, but then I'm also using subutex, which in my mind is like kind of like I'm kind of sober. I'm not getting high. And the subutex is like methadone. It's just keeping me from like going into withdrawals. But that's all it's doing. And when we, when I realized this is okay, I couldn't do it for myself.

I couldn't do it for my wife. And I was like, I cannot bring kids into this because I'm not this person who's like, unstable and like this crazy like I'm in my heart in my like sober state I'm like empathetic I'm like a little more gentle and like on drugs I was hyper aggressive and um I went to an outpatient detox facility in New York called Paralex where they give you like medically assist they help you like go through a medically assisted withdrawal so you I would check in every morning and they would give me like riddle in to stay awake, blood pressure medication for the withdrawals and then Xanax and sleeping medicine to go to bed because he couldn't sleep. I'd sleep for a few hours, wake up

absolutely drenched in sweat. I mean like to the point where I'm like the sheets are wet, the mattress is wet. I'm like going from main our bedroom to the guest bedroom and like just sweating through everything. It was horrible. And around the fourth day, you know, I write about this in the book. Around the fourth day, I wake up to go the bathroom and pass out, blackout from all the different medication and the withdrawals. And my wife finds me unconscious and is like hysterical. And I just like... Did she know that you were doing this?

No, she were trying to... You were keeping this whole thing a secret. Yes. Yes. If I can get seven days sober with no subutex and no opioids, I can get a shot of a drug called Vivitrol. That's an opioid blocker that will prevent me from getting high for 30 days at a time. And it was like a miracle drug.

So I had never taken it, but I was like, oh, it's basically now, Naldrexone or something. It's like they use it for alcoholism too. And so I'm thinking I only have three days to go and I'm going to get this shot. No one's going to be none the wiser and I'm going to be sober. Even if I don't like it, I won't be able to get high. And she finds me. That below us up.

Yeah. And, you know, if you've ever seen the movie flight where Denzel Washington is like high and drunk and he gets in a plane crash and saves a bunch of people, but he's high and drunk when he does. it and they're like they know it and he's going to trial and he thinks he can prove he's not drunk and high when it happens and he's been sober for like six months and he realizes the night before the trial his room at the hotel he's staying at getting ready for trial is cracked open to the neighboring room and he's had all the booze taken out of his room but he sees the door open and walks in and all you see is the refrigerator full of booze and then the next day

flashed to the next day and he's walking into court and he's like completely whacked out he's been up drinking and doing coke all night and he gets on the stand and they're like, and all he had to do, he was going to be found innocent. All he had to do is show up that next day and be like, I didn't do it and he's done. And he gets on the stand and he's like, yep, I did it.

I was high the whole time. I'm high right now. And they're like, you know, he gets sentenced to prison. That's kind of the feeling I had when she found me. I was like, yep, I was high. I've been like, this is the life I've been living. These are all the things that I've done. And I was literally like, yeah, I'm a piece of shit.

I'm like, I'm a loser. And I'm looking at her and looking at the balcony and thinking like, I'm going to jump off the balcony to get out of here to like escape this confrontation. But obviously I didn't and I dealt with it. And three days later, I got the Vivitral shot and that was like the beginning of my like sobriety. I mean, I had some bumps along the road,

but that was like the changing of my life. And that was also right around the time I started to like really like get into endurance sports and that became my like new obsession, crutch, new addiction and all the things that go along with it. And we went to Ethiopia, adopted my daughter, and everything was good. And it was almost like a weight off my shoulders,

though, telling my wife that I, what happened? Because then I felt like I could tell her everything. I mean, obviously I wouldn't tell her. I guess what? I got high again yesterday, but eventually she figured it out. She would see right through it. She'd be like, what is wrong with you?

So there were a couple of relapses after that before it really stuck. Yeah. Yeah. There's so much shame. around relapse, but it's part of the process, you know, I think it's rare. I think there are people who just think, like, well, you go in and you get sober and if you relapse, like, you're a failure and whatever. But, you know, most people, like, are relapsing

all the time before it eventually sticks. You identify it perfectly, though. It's like I would enter into a severe, severe shamestorm of just like so disgusted with myself. And you realize like that's why I've never shied away from talking about the mistakes I've made because I think what you just said is important for people to hear. It's not although you don't want to,

I don't want to tell people like, yeah, listen, I made mistakes. Like it's like it's okay. Like no, you definitely don't want to have relapses, but I always feel a tinge of jealousy when someone's like, yep, I got sober in like, you know, 2002 on this exact date. And I'm like, I want to have like an exact date

when I, I would relapse, I'd be like, I'm not going to keep track anymore because there's too much pressure. That like attachment to like, this is my date or whatever. I think it's, there's value in that. Like, you know, it's important to acknowledge like, hey, you know, this much time has elapsed since, you know, I came into the rooms or whatever. But there's also a violence with it, you know, and that's what contributes to the shame. Like if you go out, you're like, oh, I just blew it and I'm a fuck up and I lost all that time. It was all for nothing. It's like, no, it wasn't all for nothing. You know, like you were sober all of that time and now something happened and you can learn from that because all we actually have is today, right?

And what we do with this moment is the only thing that is important because it's actually the only thing that exists. Everything else is a story. Right. We have a story about our past and a story about like who we want to become or who, you know, we think we can become or can't become. And, you know, for me, sobriety is very much about like deconstructing all of those stories and trying to be a little bit more present and letting go. Like, I'm so willful like you and I want to control things. And I want to basically channel my obsession to like make this or that happen and just being

constantly, you know, humbled and reminded that like the way forward is really in the letting go. And when you're, you know, when you're struggling to, you know, to get pregnant or Shelby gets a cancer diagnosis, you're just reminded that, you know, we have so little control. And, you know, life is uncertain. And, you know, we have to, like, appreciate the moment that we find ourselves in, which is so difficult for me, you know. Yeah. The other thing I would say is when I would relapse, at least for me, it would remind me of why I'm doing this because I would, I would. wouldn't even say like the getting high wasn't the end result. It was like, why am I hiding from these feelings? There's something I'm avoiding because what I realize is the only time I would be happy, if I would think, that's it, I'm getting high. I would be like almost euphoric from the time I decided to do it until I got my hands on the drugs and then it was all downhill. And then I was like, why did I do this? It's not as good as I thought it was going to be. And it never is. And it just

gets worse. And with time and enough of those mistakes, I've come to realize like, nah, this is all a big lie. So when I talk to my kids about drugs, because obviously when I wrote the book and the kids have all read it, my wife's like, you kind of talk to them about this. Like you can't just let them read it. Like you've got to talk to them about addiction and stuff. But I always describe it like this. I'm like, listen, drugs are a lie. Like they're telling you that everything's going to be okay. They're making you think things that aren't true. And what you're going to realize is the things that you're hiding from are not going to go away. they're only going to get worse, and then you're also going to have to deal with the fact that

now you have like a drug addiction problem. And I said, it's just a big, giant lie that you're telling yourself and trying to impress upon themselves, like, because obviously they see the attention that the book is getting and that I'm getting. And I don't want them to think like, oh, my dad, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, the things that I'm like, no, no, these, these, the things that I'm writing about here are like, learn from my mistakes. There's other, there's other ways to cope with this. And it would have been, a lot less unpleasant for me. And they also see me.

They know they're not stupid. They know that I struggle with a lot of things. They know that I could be a lot happier. And that's been the most difficult part of this whole journey is like trying to be the person that I want to be when I'm around them and like want to be the example for them of how to deal with difficulties versus being like the angry dad or aggressive dad. Like that's not the answer. And it's that's the thing that I struggle.

with when it comes to sports, it's like, I just, I can tell them anything, but I have to, like, behave like a mature man. Yeah. The problem with that, though, is that if they're watching what you're doing, you're setting a standard that's very difficult for them to live up to. Yes, yes. You're like, don't worry about what I say. It's like your kids are always watching what you're doing. It doesn't matter what you say, right? Right. This is your point. But they see you doing things that most people don't do or are incapable of doing. or just don't have the determination and the internal drive and commitment that you have. So how do you deal with that as a parent to make sure that, like, they don't feel like they have to,

you know, kind of be a version of you? No, that's a great question. And I was just going to ask you, do you have any advice? Because I'm obviously not doing it right, because I don't want this, but I don't know how to. I feel like sometimes when I'm trying to be something, I'm not, I'm like, I'm pretending. Like, I need to be myself, but I've got to find a way that it's, like, organic and natural for me to be a little more calm and less concerned. I think plugging you in as, as, like, the coach might not be the best way to do it because you're, then it just, you know, like, you're, the Ken rideouts coming out no matter what, you know? Like, you got to make sure they feel supported and that you're there for them and all of that.

but um there's a great quote i think when you know when all the when all the like you know go harder stuff starts coming out like i don't know if maybe that's in service to them i don't have the answer to that i'm not a psychologist no i um there's a great quote from uh it's like a meme from uh theo vaughan where he's describing his dad and he's like uh great guy threatened to threaten to kill me a couple times other than that awesome so i put it like uh uh a uh a text on a thing of me like exercising with the kids like in the gym and running with them like how was it having your dad as your coach great guy threatened to kill me a couple times other than that awesome yeah as somebody who is public facing and transparent about your your past with addiction

when you get an email or a DM from somebody as I'm sure you do like hey Ken I'm inspired by your story, I just, you know, I can't get off the oxy or I've been, you know, I've been on the Vicodin for 10 years and I don't know what to do. I'm at the end of my rope. Like, what should I do? Like, I'm sure you get a lot of those messages, right? Like, what is the advice or the counsel that you give? I typically say that for a step is the hardest and asking for help is the hardest thing. And I would say, I'm not a drug counselor, but I'm going to connect you on a DM right now with Zach Clark at release recovery. And the best thing you can do is talk to people that have the tools to help you get through this because you've acknowledged essentially this is dependent on the person that I've

said versions of this like you're acknowledging like you can't do this on your own just like I couldn't do it on your on my own and the best thing you can do is ask for help and I've had a long term relationship with Zach Clark and a formal relationship with the guys that release recovery in New York which is like a rehab center sober living facility just a full service addiction treatment service and they've been great if you don't have health insurance and if you don't have the means to get into treatment, they'll provide it for you. They have a nonprofit. But really, I, when I get those kind of messages, I always treat it with incredible sensitivity because I'm not an addiction counselor. I haven't had the best, you know, I'm like not the picture perfect, like sober person in the

sense that I haven't had this like clean, like upward trajectory of like, I got sober and then never looked back. Like I've made all the mistakes possible, but I just emphasize, speaking to the people continuing to take responsibility for yourself and most importantly like keep going no what even if you continue to make mistakes like every day you get a day a chance to start over and the only person that's as you know with an intervention the only person that's going to get you clean and sober as yourself and the fact that you're even reaching out you know or they're like I think I have a problem I think I need to do this I say if you are reaching out to me and telling me you think you have a problem you don't need to think anymore I can guarantee you have a problem

which is fine I bet that you have a problem which is fine I bet that you have a problem in there. It's not about giving advice or being a psychologist or an addiction medicine specialist. It's about sharing your experience. Like that's what we learn, right? You're not there to tell them what they should or they shouldn't do or to take their inventory.

It's just like, well, this is what I did, you know, or here's what happened to me. And the fact that you have this set of life experiences gives you a level of kind of credibility for that person that inspired them to like reach out to you. But yeah, it's not like there's any one way. As some of you know, I am in a very different season of training than I've ever been in before. I'm rebuilding slowly, intentionally, after this spinal fusion surgery that I underwent this past May.

And I'm learning what it means to be patient with my fitness and how to prioritize sustainability over intensity. And I got to say that whoop, specifically my new whoop 4.0 wearable, has been this just enormously helpful companion in this process. It's a screenless, wearable health and fitness coach that gives me personalized insights into my sleep, into my recovery, my strain, and my overall health, helping me to really understand what my body is actually ready for on any given day. And that awareness is what is helping me really stay focused and consistent, which is essentially everything right now. I do have some meaningful goals ahead. I am very intentional about getting back to pain-free running and hopefully lining up for the New York City Marathon to celebrate my 60th birthday in the fall. And Woop is helping me make the best decisions that are moving me the most expeditiously forward toward those moments with greater, results and intention. So I would suggest that you check it out. Go to join.wup.com

slash roll for one month free of whoop. The supplement world. Let's just say it's a bit noisy out there with endless products promising quick results or products that are making all kinds of unsupportable claims. But over many, many years, what I have learned is that lasting progress usually comes from getting a few simple basics right and then doing them consistently. I bang on about this all the time on the podcast, but the one area that doesn't get nearly enough attention is fiber. In fact, and amazingly, almost 95% of Americans aren't getting enough. Let that sink in, which makes it one of the most overlooked gaps in health and performance, despite the fact that fiber is crucial to disease prevention, to performance, and

to overall well-being by supporting gut health, nutrient absorption, steady energy, focus, recovery, and on and on and on. Momentous Fiber Plus was built to address that foundation directly. It combines multiple forms of fiber to support digestion and help stabilize blood sugar, so your energy stays more even throughout the day. And as is with everything Momentus makes, it's science first, clearly formulated and independently tested with NSF certified first. sport standards. That commitment to fundamentals and transparency is is really why I trust them the most. If you want to improve performance at the source and eliminate the guesswork, shop Momentus Fiber Plus at livemometus.com and get up to 35% off your first order with the code,

rich roll. So let's talk about mindset. There's a lot in this book about your kind of all or nothing approach to life, this obsessive kind of relationship that you, you have with the things that excite you. And essentially, this boils down to this mantra of win or die trying. Like, is this still your go-to mindset strategy? The whole expression makes it sound like I don't care if I die, and I definitely don't want to die. But that's the only way that I can get the most from myself. And the reason that I know that, as I've explained here before, is going to Hawaii the first time and qualifying for the Cohn, the Higher Man World Championships, getting there and getting out on the run and quitting like a loser.

I was so angry. I'm so angry at myself thinking about it now. Just like, how could you possibly quit just because things were hard? And the pain that I carry from that, not just that decision, but just in general, like taking the easy way out, using drugs as a crutch. Like those kind of things piss me off that in hindsight that I did those. And the fact that I can't change it frustrates me. And that's something that I'm trying to come to terms with.

But, and again, I want to emphasize that I don't have all the answers. I would never advise other people to take my advice or to take my approach. But that has been the only approach that I have found to get the things that I want to get into and to win the way that I need to win because I don't see myself as someone who's overly talented, overly intelligent. I wasn't like, you know, when I got to New York, it's not like the walls, the finance community was like, oh, my God, thank God, Ken's here. It was like, oh, this idiot.

Like in my mind, I'm like, I had to basically like kick down the door. No one was opening it for me. And same thing with running. It's like if I don't go there with that mentality, I can easily convince myself like, take it easy, man. Just participating is fun. And I just have never found that like that space where I'm like just participating is fun. Although I will say I'm closer to that than I ever have been.

I'm getting old and I do love the running community. I love going to the races and seeing people. like I genuinely do. And when I bring that mentality, it's like until the race is over, like, I do not want to, like, be nice. I don't want to talk. I don't want to hang out. I don't want to, like, take effing selfies.

I want to, like, kill myself in this race. And then when we're done, I'm like everybody's best friend. It's sort of antithetical to the conclusion of the book being like the competition is with yourself because this idea of winning is really kind of about other people. And I would say that you have an unhealthy fixation with other. people and being better than other people. And that speaks to maybe an underlying insecurity or like imposter syndrome.

Look, we're addicts, we're sensitive people. You know, we feel like we don't belong. We feel like we have to prove ourselves and we compensate and have to go out and do outrageous things just to feel like, you know, we're deserving of love and attention. Like I get all of that. But I think on some level, it is a little Ricky Bobby, you know, like you're either first or your last, you know, that kind of thing.

And I can see why. why like it worked for you and on perhaps some level continues to work for you. Like it's a very kind of binary thing. Like this is an, it's like you're either drinking or you're sober, you know? It's like, it's a light switch. Like I'm gonna win or I'm gonna die trying.

Yeah. And it's an accountability tool. Like I'm gonna hold myself accountable for this. And that doesn't mean that I'm going to win, but I'm committing to giving everything that I have towards that goal. That's how I feel going to the race is like, I want to get the most out of myself.

And yes, you're right that I want to win, but my fixation isn't necessarily with a person other than myself. Like, there's a part of me. That's not true. There's a part of me. You get fixated on these. And there's stories in the book, this guy rub me the wrong way,

so I'm going to beat him. No matter, you get fixated on these other people. It's all about that other guy. In the moment, in the moment you can get on my radar. And all of a sudden, I'm like, you could have just left me alone. Now I, it's like your brain needs that. You need a,

enemy. You know, you're looking for an enemy and that like locks you in. But I don't feel like I have any enemies in reality. Like I never, I go to a race knowing who the other competition is, but I never want to like, I never wish ill will on people that I like don't know for sure. I mean, I have like, I wouldn't say I have any enemies. I mean, I have competition. I think it's like a device. It's a way of activating that part of your brain that gets you like fully focused. Oh, in the moment. If we're like one and two in a race, yeah, then I'm like, I'm going to kill this guy. Like, yeah, for sure. But as soon as the race is over, I'm like, dude, good job.

You should, when I went by, you should have jumped on me. Not everybody has the Ken ride out cranium. You know, I think you're wired a certain way. You know what I mean? I think you, you know, because of your unique set of life circumstances, like your brain was wired to be this very intense person and, and, you know, lends itself to this type of, like, mindset and mentality as a way of, like, channeling your obsessions and in healthy directions. But what is the advice to the average person who's not going to run the goby desert who feels stuck, wants to make a change, knows they need to make a change? But, you know, maybe they grew up, you know, they maybe had a perfectly fine childhood and they grew up in a, you know, loving home in suburbia. And they don't have that, you know, they're not a, they're not an addict.

They're not a recovering addict. They don't have that, like, edge that you have. Like, how do you counsel that person? I would say you don't have to bring intensity to your life to get up and do something disciplined every day. But I would say that there's like a quote from L.A. to Kipchogi where he's talking about discipline and how discipline will set you free. It's like the person who has discipline has freedom. The person who doesn't have discipline is like tortured or prisoner to their emotions. Like my emotions tell me to like not work out today and have donuts and just be lazy, which cool once in a while is cool.

personally for me like one bad decision can lead to in my mind can lead to two because it has one day of getting high when i would get sober for a few months and then i'd get high for a day it would be like two weeks of being high 24-7 so like my brain doesn't work like that but the other thing that i would say is there's so much gaslighting in the world like everyone's telling oh this is okay that's okay but deep down we all know what the truth is it's like if you wanted to lose weight well prior to g lp1s if you want to wanted to lose weight. You knew you had to eat less and exercise more. And it's like, I'm looking for that like diet hack and there's like a whole industry about here's a healthy snack. Here's this. How about this? Just eat less and work out more. I know it sucks. It definitely suck. Getting sober sucks, but it can be done. And there's a million examples of how people have done it. And I would say that there are lessons in the book about how I did all those things. And I don't think you have to be a savage to set some realistic fitness goals. Without your health, you have nothing.

Like you really do. And it's your number one responsibility in your life is to take care of you. When Rich Roll wakes up in the morning, no one is telling you you have to eat a vegan diet and you have to have this. If you wanted to, be like, you know what? I'm having a whole effing cake

or I'm having a box of donuts because they taste good. The only person controlling those decisions is you. It's the same thing with staying sober. It's the same thing with getting along with your wife. It's like all of these things require some form of discipline. And if you can learn how to harness that and take care of yourself, to me, the greatest thing ever is showing up and being in good shape

and having people be like, wow, you really look like you care about yourself. Yeah, it's reflective of how I like take care of my business. But when you show up disheveled and out of shape, it's kind of like, dude, your number one responsibility is to yourself. Like, let's go. And I love people that are. trying and I know it's not easy for everyone but it's also doesn't have to be as hard as you're making it out to me so what is the tool that you use most frequently to stave off that voice in your

head that's trying to lead you astray you called the beta voice it's all constantly haunting me it's for me it's as simple as discipline and I think we can we can talk around and around and beat it to death and overanalyze it but at the end of the day it's like if you're you can't be accountable to yourself, how are you going to show up for other people? It's like if I don't take care of my health and wellness, mental and physical, like at some point,

my kids are going to have to take care of me anyway. I'd like that to be as long in the future as possible. Like the idea of, you know, I heard someone say a man has two lives. The first one is when they think they're going to live forever. And the second one starts when they realize they only have one. And that, I'm in that stage right now where I'm like,

I'm like this is coming to an end. Like we're not getting out of here alive. And I have four kids that I care about more than anything in the world. And the idea that they are eventually going to have to take care of me scares me. And the idea of me, them having to take care of me sooner than absolutely necessary, like, till I'm very old. Like, I don't want that. So there's maybe an element of fear there too where I'm like, no, I got to keep taking care of myself. And obviously you don't have to be as motivation.

as I am or as obsessive about held in wellness as I am, but there is an element of accountability to yourself that I just don't know what to tell you. It's like if you're in college and you don't have discipline to study, like, why would you expect to be on the dean's list unless you're like a savant or a genius? You know what I mean? It's like that's your responsibility. You just, you have to figure it out. It's discipline is the only way to get that. You know as well as anyone that this boils down to willingness. Again, like self-awareness will avail you nothing. Like, anyone who needs to lose weight or who is out of shape, name your maladaption,

knows that they need to do things differently. Like it's not an information problem. It's a willingness problem. You have a lot of willingness. For me, willingness comes and goes. Like, willingness is like this energy field. And the way I think about it is you have to court it, kind of like the muse, but you can't just make somebody

willing. You know, you can't convince somebody to be willing. Like, we see this all the time in, like, the rooms of recovery, like, hey, you're not willing. You know, if you're not willing, if you're not willing to do anything different, like, there's no reason for you to be here. And you can tell that person all day long and do as many, what do they call them? Interventions on them as you want. But, you know, until that person decides that they're willing to make that change for themselves, it's all like hot air. It's not going to do anything. Do you have any experience or advice to the person who struggles with willingness?

Like they know they need to make this change. They don't need to be told that they need to make it. They don't need to be shamed. They don't need more information. What they need is willingness, but you can't give that to them, right? Like there's that thing in AA where it's like, well, you just need to go out and do more research. Like it's a very kind of like detached, unemotional thing.

Like, well, come back when you're ready. clearly not ready right now. The same way people don't respond to interventions until they're ready to do it themselves is the same. It's the same exact emotion, I think, with getting in shape and accountability and fitness and all the things that go along with it. It's like, if I had a magic answer to make people willing to take care of themselves, yeah, it's a mystery box.

It's a mystery box. But that's why pain and suffering is so vital because these are the like catalysts that, you know, that ignite willingness. You know, they're the things that, like, when you're in enough pain or you've suffered enough, then suddenly you're willing to do something you weren't before, right? And why these experiences that we have in life that are painful or even when we volunteer for suffering, it's because it's so deeply related to our relationship with willingness. You know, it brings that to the surface.

Well, I would say this. It's like if you're not willing, but you know you need to make a change, sometimes the best thing you can do is reach out for help to the appropriate like parties or someone that has is doing someone that has gone through similar struggles, which is why A.A. and NA makes so much sense with people because you're hearing their shared experiences because what you realize is that everyone has so much in common regardless of their background. And my 14 year old son is, man, he's going through it. He's like, you know, going through puberty and he's just a ball of emotions. And it's like the hardest thing that I've dealt with in a long time.

And on Sunday, he must have been having, like, the Sunday scarries and was all down in the dumps, and his grades weren't great. So I was like, dude, I got to take the phone. I got to take the computer out of your room. And, you know, he's, like, obsessed with making videos. He's now taking flying lessons. And he's very obsessive when he's into something. And I'm like, I have to take these things because you can't do it.

And he was down at them. So I said, come on, let's go take the car to the car wash. And we'll talk. And as we're talking, I said to him, like, you having a hard day, huh? Yeah. And no words, you know, he's very just sitting there, like, listening. Like, it's so difficult. And I'm like, buddy, the same way I had to get off of drugs,

I had to realize, I can't do this by myself, how you think it's going for you right now? It's like, not good. I said, right, sometimes when our lives are unmanageable, we have to just accept the fact that I don't, I'm not doing good at this. I need help. And I've had to do it.

Your mom's had to do it. Sometimes we need to just realize, realize like, hey, how's it going on your own? No, not good. I can't do it by myself. And you're in that space right now. But the good news is the things you're struggling with, like, you're imagining everything. Like, you have everything going for you.

You have a clean slate. Lots of good things coming. Like I heard Andrew Huberman the other day saying it's all internal. Like when you win a race or something good happens, someone doesn't sprinkle dopamine on you. And I was explaining that to him. I said, the emotions that you're feeling. Like, you're imagining a lot of things right now.

like you're depressed about something. Like, yeah, this might be a chemical imbalance, but recognize. Like, you're imagining a lot of these things like school sucks, this sucks. Instead of thinking, this is great, I get to start over again Monday, lacrosse seasons here. It's going to be fun. You're in the eighth grade. You're one of the older kids. You're going to have a good season.

I said, you've got to, like, tell yourself all the things that you have to be thankful for. Thank God mom's cancer is, like, cured. I mean, imagine if she was really sick and, like, going through it. And, like, people die from this. And I said, but we're good. And I think it got through to him a little, but man, it is, it is difficult. It's a hard age. It's so hard to be an adolescent or teen these days.

Like, you know, I just have so much compassion for, I'm sorry he's going through that. You know, it's just, it's, can you imagine being in junior high school or high school with social media and everything and the toxicity of what's being, you know, communicated through those screens. It is very difficult. They're inundated with, you know, so many challenges as a result of that that we didn't have to. And it's really difficult.

I mean, what he's going through is, you know, he's not alone. Like, this is particularly with like young, you know, young boys, young men like that. Like, it's a big problem. Is he looking at the looks maxing stuff? We're putting out an episode on that. It's just total insanity. On the looks, looks. Like the whole idea that like the only thing.

that matters is how good looking you are and all of that that whole trend on social media right now. The difficult thing, man, is he doesn't really communicate with me like that. My kids are so different. I have four, right? I have a daughter who's 15 and then I have boys 14, 12, and 10. And they are so wildly different. It's like four completely different aliens in the house. And everyone is in a different stage of like maturity and a different stage of development. and yes, I can be very judgmental too. And like obviously, you know, they see me away. You can't be easy to be your kid.

No, it's not. And it's very difficult for me to see them go through that. Especially the little one. He lost a couple of, I get so sad thinking about it. He lost a couple wrestling matches. And he was so destroyed. And it like, it was like devastating to me. because I'm like, I know that he's bummed to think he disappointed me.

And I'm like, and I say to him, like, dude, do you realize the only thing I care about is that you're trying? How can you be the best? We haven't been the worst yet. We've only been wrestling two years. That guy has probably been wrestling for seven years. And, I mean, he got mauled. But the kids were like really good. I'm like, dude, you don't have to be a rocket science to look at that kid right now and be like he's been wrestling for years.

You barely like even know how to put your friggin' wrestling shoes on. But it was so hard, he was devastated. I mean, really devastated. But he kept getting back up and going back out for the next match. And we went home and I was like, I had to take him aside. And it was really hard because as I'm talking about this, I'm getting choked up myself while I'm talking to him. And I'm like, I just want you to be happy and try hard.

I don't care about you don't have to be the best. But I know that he feels pressure because when I go to do something, And I like, I want to win. And they know that. And I say to him, but I've said like, dude, you've seen me lose more than I've won. Like, you only know the wins because they like get out more attention. But how many times have I gone to races and got killed a lot? And man, it's really hard.

But yeah, it's not a yes of the. Yeah, the Ken ride out mindset and obsession, you know, doesn't, how does that measure up when it comes to parenting, you know, like that's, even if you're saying all those things, They're seeing how you behave. That's right. And they're measuring their own, you know, kind of output and effort against that. And, you know, if they have a shred of that DNA strand that you have of imposter syndrome or insecurity, it's only going to, like, you know, exacerbate that. So that's a hard one.

It's incredibly hard because it doesn't matter how many times I tell them those things. I made a post the other day about this. My kids hear some of what I say, but they believe everything they see. and what they see is intensity and aggressiveness. And I'm aware of that and it like breaks my heart, which is why I get so emotional thinking about it because I don't want this for them. I don't want my kids to have my personality

or my aggressiveness. Like I don't, like I said earlier, I don't profess to have the answers. I'm surviving. I'm not like, this is the way to do it, run through everything. I'm like, that's not my, that's not my conscious mindset. That's like my defense mechanism for a lot of other like issues that I'm dealing.

with, but to your earlier point, it has served me well in terms of like getting this book done and all the things that go with it. You know, these relics of childhood trauma become superpowers and go-to strategies and defense mechanisms that not only allowed you to survive, they basically created, you know, this larger than life, life. Like, they have empowered you to like great height. At the same time, these things are Achilles heels. Yes, that's right.

Like your greatest strength is your greatest weakness. Exactly right. What gave you all of these things is the very same thing that can take it all away and destroy it. And that tension, you know, like I'm familiar with that. Like how do you reconcile those two things? But I think, and this is like a credit to Julie who's sitting in the audience over here,

one of the things that Julie's always like telling me is, that the most important thing, like the priority, is to heal those childhood wounds so that you can show up as your most self-actualized self for your spouse and your children and to interrupt that generational pattern of trauma and abuse so that it stops here. And I think that while everyone's celebrating you

for all the marathon, that you've run and for the Gobi Desert race and all these other kind of like adventures that you've been on, the most courageous thing that you have done and are continuing to do is to heal those wounds in the interest of Shelby and your children. That's it.

That is your Mount Everest. This is the mountain that you're climbing. And it's very clear in the book that you realize that, you recognize that, and you're taking that challenge on seriously. Yeah, it's the, like what you said about the Achilles heel, it's like, not only is that my Achilles heel, but it's like for all the successes and wins that are outlined in the book, the only thing I obsess over is the Achilles heel. I'm like, I got to fix this. I got to fix this. And the

running is just like- But your willfulness isn't going to fix it. And there's no amount of running or no number of race victories that's going to resolve that because the solution is almost the It's like everything in life. It serves you for a period of time. That's right. And then it doesn't because you've grown past it. So your addiction to opioids worked until it didn't. And you needed that at that time in order to survive what you were going through.

And then it played its part and you were done and you struggle to overcome it, but you eventually did. Then it becomes running. You know, running becomes a way of, and it moves your life forward. Like I'm not denigrating it. like I'm right with you, buddy. But at some point, it's like, okay, how much are you growing and learning by doing this? Like, you can keep running races the rest of your life. But, you know, it's diminishing returns at this point.

And I think the universe like delivered you that message when suddenly you're depressed. And you're like, why am I feeling this way? Everything's great. Okay, that's not going to work anymore. Now we've got to go over here and we've got to do this. And it's not as sexy as like running marathon. You know what I mean? It's messy and it's, you know, behind closed doors and rooms.

And it's hard to, there's no stopwatch. So you can't, and you're not racing against anyone. You can't really judge how well you're progressing. And it's really just up to you. You have to hold yourself accountable to this. And, you know, it's not something that plays out on social media or that you're going to get likes and accolades and, you know, like get externally validated for. But it is the most important thing, yeah.

Well, you're right. That's why I really haven't run any races. I mean, I ran the Austin half marathon just because I was like, I got to get at least set some goals. I'm just going through the motions. And it's like, I do love the process of getting ready, even though I'm like not nearly as like fit as I've been. But I haven't really competed in a real race since like the Chicago Marathon in like 23, at the age group world championships. But since then, I haven't really done anything. But you described it perfectly. Like I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, desperately trying to get to the next chapter and realizing like this is, I do know running is not like, I don't want to feel like it's like this performative thing, which is what it was becoming. It's like, initially I was running to get sober. It was like my own personal thing and I was getting faster and I loved it. And then I started to get recognition for it. It became like a performative and almost like for other people. But to your point, it's like the willingness versus able.

Like, am I able to do anything? anything I want, but am I willing? And that's basically like the next chapter that I'm on to is like, all right, what am I going to do next to like get to the next level of maturity here because running is in it, right? I've like exactly what you said, I've maxed out the running. I'm like drugs didn't work. Running ain't going to get me where I need to be. And there's always another, a longer race or a crazier, you know, like you can be on that treadmill for the rest of your life. Yeah, I'm not. I'm not on. What are you actually getting out of that? That's right. What in your mind is the difference,

the differentiator between the person who can hear something, read something, watch something, like this podcast, hears you say whatever, and then goes, oh yeah, okay, I'm gonna do that and then they do it and they change their life. Versus the person who just can't, they know what they need to do and they just can't, they can't get there.

You almost wish you could like sit next to them and just be like, hey, instead of this time thinking that you want to do it, pick up the phone, call someone, just take one step in the right direction. It becomes contagious. And it's like all of these like sayings and expressions sound corny and cliche, like the journey of a thousand miles starts with one step. Yeah, that the Gobe March seems insurmountable. But at some point I was just like, well, let me just show up on day one and start getting after it. And eventually you're in day two. It's like being in on-site. I was laughing with my roommate was

Eric Decker, the NFL receiver, who's like become one of my closest friends in Nashville. And we're in the room together with another guy, with another older guy, three of us in a room together. I'm like, I can't believe I have three roommates and I'm like 50 years old. Like I can't believe I'm here. I was like I was in jail. And, uh, yeah, like we're old men. Yeah, like, talk, you're like talking about her parents. Yeah, exactly. So we're in the room together, but we were laughing because I had like the day, they, they give you the schedule and it's in days and blocks and like the calendar has like block hair. then we got this.

And I'm crossing them off. Like I'm in prison. I'm like, guys, last day, we only have three modalities and we're out of here. And they were laughing. And I was like in a weird way as I was driving out of there. Oh my God, I was an emotional mess driving home calling my wife because I hadn't been able to use the phone. I had so much to say to her.

But as we're leaving, it's like one of those things where when people ask me like, how was on site? I always say, it would be like this. Your back's jacked up. How was your back surgery? It sucked. But guess what? I'm better now.

But if I didn't go through that back surgery, I wouldn't be to the point I am now, like doing push-ups and working out every day at 4.30 in the morning. I'm so proud of you, by the way. I love seeing your workout videos. I'm serious. I can't imagine anyone finds any of it.

I think it's so boring. I like it. To me, it's inspiring because I know how much you suffered with that back. So when I see you doing push-ups, to me, because I know if I couldn't work out or run because my back was jammed up and then it got fixed and now I'm doing 14 push-ups, I see everything.

I'm like, yes, he's doing it. I feel genuinely happy for you. That's been part of my therapy is like having friends like you and Rob Moore and Zach Clark and some of the other guys that we've mentioned today is like having friends that I like genuinely love and want to see them succeed is a new experience for me in the last like 10 years, call it where I've been comfortable enough with myself to like genuinely, I think before I was almost so insecure that I didn't want to do. acknowledge that someone might even be better at anything, but now to have friends that I want so

desperately to see succeed that I can feel happy for other people and their successes has been life-changing for me. Because I feel like I get to participate in so many wins. Because when I see my friends win, I'm like, yes, we're doing it. And I feel a certain extent, I feel a version of that when I win myself, because I know that I have some friends that are really happy for me. And there's a part of me that really feels like I'm carrying everyone with me when I'm doing these events, good, bad or indifferent. When I win like the Goldbe March, I feel like, oh, we did it. I feel like I won for everyone that's kind of been on this similar journey.

Oh, that's friends with me. What is your relationship with happiness? Are you a happy person? Is being happy important to you? Yes, but I try to reflect. I try to think more about being at peace, because happiness is like an emotion that comes and goes, whereas someone who's peaceful and like living in gratitude is like I look at someone like Mike Posner

and I feel like a tinge of jealousy. I'm like he seems so at peace. I'm like conflicted all the time. I called him when I was going through some stuff with the recently that you and I've talked about where I was frustrated with some other situations and I called him and I'm venting and ranting and raving about it and he's like, Ken, relax. It's all going to be fine. And I was like, I know you're right. I'm like, I just, I hate that it bothers me. But he's like at peace. So I think of, when I think anytime I catch myself wanting to be happy, I think more about finding peace.

And because I have moments of happiness every day. I look at my kids and I feel happy. But if I'm in a bad space, I look at my kids and I see anxiety because I'm like, oh, I know my daughter is struggling with this or that. And I was talking to Julie about this. It's like, man, having, being a parent is by far harder than anything I've ever. are done, like living and dying with their emotional struggles is so difficult for me. And something that one of the things that I want to work on when I get to my next, like,

stop on the therapy train, the therapy journey is like realizing that the kids are going to be all right. I don't have to like be in control of their emotional, like their emotional journeys, you know, I don't have to wear their emotional like baggage. Like they're going to have good days, bad days. And when I was in on-site, the woman was like, well, how would you feel if your children had to go through this when I was telling her I didn't think I had trauma? And I was like, my kids could never have gone through the things that I've gone through. And she was literally like, why would you be special? Like, if they were in it, they'd go through it, whether they like it or not. What are they going to do? To be like, I want to get off the ride now. I don't want anymore,

which is how sometimes I would describe my own life where as a kid, I was like, I'm on a ride at an amusement park, I don't want to be on it anymore. Let me off. That's how my life felt with living in the house I lived in where I was like, guys, I don't want to be on the Turkish twist anymore. I'm getting nauseous. Like, stop the ride. Was it just, like, anger and fighting?

Or was it, like, alcoholism? Like, what was going on in the house? My mother and stepfather would smoke weed every day. And in the, you know, 80s, in 70s and 80s, like, that was not acceptable. That was, like, hippies and, like, I have a different view on weed in general now. I'm not a weed person,

but I have a different view similar to alcohol. But as a kid, I was like, oh my God, because weed wasn't like something that was like cool. I was like, these people are degenerates. And then I had my uncle who lived with us

downstairs with my grandmother who was shooting heroin. It was just like, I don't want to be around this. I was never attracted to drugs. I had contempt for everyone that used drugs, which is crazy that I then found myself in my own, you know, addiction cycle.

But on top of that, it was like very aggressive. My mother and stepfather fighting all the time, usually screaming and yelling, but occasionally physical. And then my brother just like literally in fights every single day. And then as he got older, cops at the house all the time. He had a motorcycle, which is fucking crazy. That it's my grandmother bought him a, like a legitimate, like ninja motorcycle. And he just,

He was hanging out with drug addicts and other junkies. And it was just madness. It was never any stability. All I wanted to do is be home when no one was home. And be like, oh, my God, peace and quiet. And it was never that. So now I like peace and quiet. Like when someone rings the doorbell and the dog, we have two dogs.

My wife has two dogs and they stop barking. I'm like, get those dogs out of here. I don't do well with like loud noise or someone slams a cabin. And I'm like, who slammed that cabinet? It's like a gunshot going off. I'm like my trauma response is immediate and instant. Yeah, I mean, those triggers are installed deep in you, those buttons, man. So when you like sit down and do like an inventory on your behavioral patterns or like what's coming up,

like what's the thing that is inflamed right now or that keeps happening that you know you need to work on but maybe haven't started to yet? I think all of the things we've talked about about being a. better dad and being a little bit more patient and at peace around the house is something that is pressing right now but i will say the culmination of the book and the um publication on march 10 all of that stuff is like coming to a head i'm like it's been it's been building for so long that it's like not that it's super anxiety inducing but it is and it's just like i'm so nervous slash anxious just about the release i wanted to be i wanted to go well and i just because i have

you know this deal with um simon and shooster i have an agent i just want to like represent everyone i want people to like it and there's i'd be lying if i didn't say there's that that feeling that you know that i struggle with of like wanting people to like it and like i'd be nervous about being trolled by people that i don't really care about their opinion but i let them invade my peace and um So here's the thing, dude. First of all, I understand all of those emotions and desires and, and, uh, aspirations for the book. But you wrote a great book.

I said you should be proud at the outset, but you corrected me correctly by saying, you know, it's more like gratitude. Um, you've already done it. Yeah. You have done the thing. You have created this expression of your life. And it's going to go out into the world and you have no fucking control over what's going to happen, dude.

It is just uncertainty from dawn to dusk. And there is nothing that you can do to exert control over it. And that's a very uncomfortable place for anybody. But I sense particularly uncomfortable for you, right? So I think this is like, I'm going to watch this like a spectator sport. I'm going to be like, let's see how this goes. Because, look, listen, there's every reason why it's going to be celebrated and, you know,

it's going to be everything you want it to be. But I guarantee you there's going to be like stuff written about it by critics who aren't going to like it. Like, that's just how it goes. Like when you go into the Coliseum and you, you know, show up in public, that goes with the territory. So I think for you, it's all about detaching from all of that and learning to just accept that that's part of the process. And it's almost like God, the universe, whatever you call your higher power, is delivering you this challenge and opportunity to grow.

Because you do have this thing with external validation and other people's opinions. We all do. But like, this is a flashpoint for you. That's right. And this experience is gonna really like, you know, like it's just, this is like an AP course in that, right? That's right. Because it's, there's going to be a lot of,

a lot of opinions out there. And you can't manage them. And if you start getting into fights with people in the comments sections and, you know, like letting your lower impulses like drive this, it's going to be a fucking disaster. Yeah. But if you can be a master of your own emotional beings,

and approach all of it with gratitude and a degree, like a greater degree of equanimity, it's going to be an amazing experience because you've already done it. Like you wrote the book you wanted to write. It's a fantastic book. And everything else is just a roller coaster ride that you're not driving, you know what I mean?

And so can you enjoy it? Or are you going to be the guy who's like reading everything that comes out about it, reading every comment, refreshing your energy. Amazon page, like the obsessive, you know, version of you, like I know, like I know this, right? Like, like, that's what it's going to want to do. Like the beast in you, you know, is going to want to do all of those things. And I think the challenge is can you, can you make that

a different experience for yourself? That's all great points. The one thing that really resonated with me is can you be the master of your own emotions? And that to me, of all the things you said, that's one thing that resonated with me where I was like, yeah, that's the next challenge. I'm going to learn how to master all my emotions. And I will say the one nice thing is that I've gotten over the years with experience in doing like the podcast that I did with Teddy Atlas and now having my own is I have become better at like not getting deep in the comments. And the one thing that I never very rarely do is ever respond to negative comments because I realize like when's the last time you left a negative comment for someone you didn't know? I realized like these people like that's,

I don't know people that leave negative comments because who would waste their time? Sometimes I was talking to one of my neighbors and they're like, oh, so and so I live in this community in Nashville and the neighbors were saying, oh, this one has a problem with this one. And I said, can you imagine having enough time and enough like free space in your brain to be worrying about neighbors fighting with each other? Like how do these people, these people

have nothing going on and that's how I feel about negative commenters is like who the hell has time to watch strangers on the internet and then leave shitty comments about them about other men who are just out there trying to like get it done? I'm going to clip that little paragraph that you just said

there and when you call me mad about something I'm going to just hit play on it and play it back to you. I have done better at that with dealing with comments from people I don't know. Definitely the book reviews, but the book reviews so far have been excellent. Publishers Weekly printed a really good one that I felt super proud of because at the end it was like what you get from after, I forget how it says, after Ken describes his like win after win, it's not said in a bragging way. It's just a matter of fact way. And what you realize is that he doesn't think he's special and it's just like a reflection of hard work and grit. However it was

written, it made me feel good. I was like, yes, because I don't ever want to talk about, I won this and I won that, like, look at me, I'm the best. Yes, you want to be the best and you want to win, but I never feel like, oh, I'm special. Otherwise, I wouldn't be here telling you all, like, frigging problems I have with myself. I'm just highlighting all the great things that I did, which. So what is the core message that you want the reader to take away from the book? I want the reader to know that anything that you want to, to do in your life as possible. And if you think that I know that I have achieved some extraordinary things, but I'm far from an extraordinary person. I have like a very physically average person

with an above average mindset when it comes to setting goals. And those things are available. Everything that I've done is available to anyone. Nothing in there required a special skill set. I wasn't born with like awesome genetics. I wasn't going to, I wasn't a threat to play any Division I sports. And whether you're looking to change careers, get sober, take on some physical challenges, start a family. There's stories about how I was able to achieve all of those different things successfully in the book. And if nothing else, I think that there's very entertaining stories about how I did them. We've talked a lot about childhood trauma, but I feel like we're kind of dancing around getting down to the nitty gritty of what it actually is in.

inside of you that needs to get healed and fixed. We've got the addiction, we've got the bullying and the childhood abuse and the opioid addiction. But beneath it all, like, what is the thing that is animating you and that needs to be repaired? I think if I had to boil it all down to kind of one thesis statement, I would say that, and it pains me to say this, and I want to be sensitive because you can, you readers will see throughout the book. Like my parents didn't do a lot of things right. But I also don't want to like just smash them up in the book and be negative towards other people. There was a lot of things that Michigan I wrote in that book that I went back and took out and I'm like, this doesn't add to my story to say, look what else they did.

It doesn't add to the story, but it will devastate them. Even though it happened, I just, it's not in my nature to just hurt people unnecessarily. And with that being said, I think my father, who had me when he was 20, so he was young and inexperienced and didn't have probably the best upbringing himself, he was adopted. And I would say that he probably got a lot of his validation through my sports. He was not happy with my brother obviously being, you know, struggling with what he was struggling with mental health, not into sports at all.

He was never athletic. And my father very much identified with sports, It's not that he was like a big athlete himself necessarily. He played some sports, I think, in high school. But I think that that's where I always got my validation was trying to like impress my dad, which it pains me to say because I don't really want consciously. I don't want that to be the case. But I think that I would be, it would be naive for me not to acknowledge that.

And I think maybe to a certain extent all of the hard charging driving and trying to win and be the best at different things is just an extension of wanting validation from my dad and slash the world. And the reason I get so emotional talking about my own kids is because I don't want to put this burden on them. And I think in writing this book and talking about all these things

and sharing this experience even with you now, it's part of me wanting to close that chapter and be like, I've done everything I need to do. I don't need to impress anyone else. people, the only really opinions of me that matter are my own and the people that live in my house. And I know they love me. So I think that that's been really the kind of overriding theme or like undercurrent of this whole thing is like just constantly seeking validation that. And again, it pains me to say it because I don't want to feel like I need validation. I want to

say, I don't need anyone. I'm good. But I would be, it would. be naive for me to have that cavalier of an attitude and not be honest about the situation. Yeah, I appreciate you being so open and honest about that. And to the extent that the book closes that chapter for you, it's also ushering in this experiment where, you know, basically like this is a, you know, like an external validation meter. You know, it's going to go out in the world And every day the meter's going to go like this. And it's going to, and the job for you is to not like, as it flickers back and forth to like use that as how you're making a judgment about your self-worth based upon how it's received. You know what I mean?

Yeah. It's been an interesting journey. And the advent of social media and having people like kind of know who I am and like be invested in my story is like a really awkward feeling at times. But it's an act of service. Yes. And if you're like, this is in service of the person who needs to read it. And it's not going to be for everybody, but to the extent that it's going to reach certain people

and it's going to impact them in a positive way, I think the more that you can be in that, you know, inhabit like that mindset, that alleviates the anxiety of like, you know, the perception aspect of the whole thing. Yeah, I agree. Knowing what I know about you and your relationship with Shelby, your wife, my sense or what I'm gathering from this experience that the two of you and your family have had navigating this cancer diagnosis and treatment is that it has softened you in certain ways and also changed your relationship with spirituality. some level. Can you talk a little bit about that? Yeah, no, that's a great, a great topic to discuss because Shelby always took, has always taken the kids to church on a fairly regular basis,

at least two or three Sundays a month. And I would use it as an excuse to do a long run. And I just, I grew up Catholic, but never really embraced religion. I would say, I wouldn't say, I'm an atheist, but I would say that I've been like flirting with the idea of leaning more into religion. And I think when she was diagnosed, she definitely leaned into her faith heavily. And a lot of people from her Bible, like she goes to a Bible study, I think once or twice a month. And seeing all the people rally around her was refreshing for me to see how tight the community is. So like at and then at Christmas we go to um we go to church together and I'm trying to think of the name of the place we go in Nashville. They go all the time. But it was funny when we

walked into the service, it's outside, it's festive, you know, there's people everyone. It's because it's like the star pastor was there and he's standing outside saying hello to everyone. And it's a little bit like those southern churches where the church, it's a big church in the pastor is like a celebrity. and he's standing outside and saying hi and my daughter is into it she loves going to church and she'd be like oh dad pastor mike is here it's like he's never comes he's always on zoom and uh as we come dude it was like they were hyper focused on me every person was like hey welcome it's like it was almost like god was like we got to get him get get the dad quick and even my daughter because my daughter's there she's like they're like celebrities to her and they go right past her don't even look at her and they

hone in on me. And I'm like, oh, hey, what's on and go? Good to see. Nice to me. And they're like, hey, keep coming back. And that's been... It sounds like an AA meeting. Exactly. I was like, man, they like, they identify me. It's like they knew. And it's funny. I just, um, I did an interview with Nick Baer, who's really like leaned into his faith recently. And I've had a lot of questions about it. And I was saying to him, like, I don't, I don't even know where to start. Like, how do you start reading the Bible. I open it and I'm like, it's overwhelming. The letters are so small. There's so many words. There's so much in there. I'm like, where do you start? And he connected me with a guy in Nashville, a pastor Lyle, Lyle Phillips, maybe. Anyway, and I connected with this guy.

I'm going to meet him next week for coffee and start to like explore this journey. But seeing Shelby go through this in the strength that she got from her own faith was motivational to me and it gave me. I think that as we've been discussing today, like there's clearly some thing, there's something missing in my life on the spiritual side. Like I'm doing all these overcompensating type challenges to avoid dealing with the real work that I have to do, which is like finding this like inner piece that we've been talking about. And seeing Shelby deal with her own mortality and the challenge that she's faced is incredibly scary. It's like I said earlier when she was diagnosed.

It's almost like I would have rather have terminal cancer because watching her feel scared and unsure for the first, certainly for the first week or two. And then eventually, like I was saying, the science is so advanced and medicine is so advanced, they outlined for us exactly what would happen. and it almost seemed to happen in hyper speed. It was all a blur in hindsight. And I remember telling her, like, this is all going to be a distant memory because I didn't know what else to say to her. And I was trying to keep it positive.

But there were definitely some, like, really low moments going through this before she had the surgery. And that was one of the most difficult periods of my life is just seeing her be scared. And not just seeing her be scared, but seeing the kids scared. and they all reacted wildly differently because for the first day or two

we're like, let's not tell the kids yet. And of course, the kids would see me talking to her and then just start crying and like really crying. And then I'd walk out of the room and my kids would just like, what is going on here? And then eventually we just had to tell them because it was so obvious. And the two older ones were like pretty matter of fact,

but my middle son is very emotional. and he was like, man, he had a hard time. He was like, told her, like, I know you're going to die. He was very, very traumatizing. But, like I said, at some point, we just had to, like, suck it up and, like, try to find some strength. And I think that the silver lining to this whole thing is that they saw her really, like, be strong.

And especially, like, once we had the plan and she went through with the surgery, seeing her kind of, like, walking around and having, like, post-stores. surgery with the drains in. And I mean, it was, it was a big surgery. So seeing them seeing her recover and, you know, women in general are so much more tough. If I had a cold, I would be like, oh, bring me this, bring me that. Like, you know, they told her don't get up and she's up walking around. And I'm like, they told you to lay down. She's like, I'm okay. I'm going to be fine.

Whereas I would be like, have the bell. I'm like a big baby. When I'm sick, she brings a bell in and puts it next to the bed. She's like, just ring this bell if you need anything. I mean, usually the kids use it. But of course, I abuse it. when I have it myself. But she was an excellent example of the kids of how to be tough in the face of adversity and how to deal with fear because there were definitely a lot of fear. And they also got an example of like how to lean into your faith. We say grace every night before we eat dinner when we eat as a family if the kids don't

have sports. And they talk a lot about being thankful for that she's okay. And it's just my wife is like the leader. You know what I mean? She's like the silent leader that does all the hard work. Like a female lion, she's the one that's like out there hunting and doing all the hard work. And I'm like thinking I'm the like king of the jungle, but really she's leading from the front. Yeah, king baby.

Yeah, exactly. I love you, buddy. I love this journey that you're on. Like I have seen so much, so much growth in you in the past couple years. You know, it's a remarkable thing. And you're just, you're a real one, dude. We really are. I'm proud of you for this book.

And I think it's going to help a lot of people. It's going to move people too because you're telling the truth, you know, and that's what these books should be. Well, I appreciate and love you, man. And thank you for having me. Like I said, without you, I genuinely don't think that this book happens. And I'm incredibly grateful that you allow me to come on and talk about the book as it comes out. As you know, writing a book is tremendous pressure to, like, do all the things.

it's not easy to ask for help so thank you for making difficult situations a lot easier and for being such a good friend so honor and pleasure back at you man thank you thanks again peace