The Rich Roll Podcast - Ken Rideout’s Win-Or-Die Mindset: Controlling The Variables, Winning His First Ultra, & Why Discomfort is the Price of Admission To Greatness

Episode Date: November 13, 2023

How do you evolve into an unbreakable champion? Never set limits. Welcome pain. And be ready to die to win. This is the ethos of Ken Rideout, returning to the podcast to arm you with the tools you need to chase huge dreams and transform your life wholesale anytime, and at any age. An absolute force of nature, Ken overcame seemingly insurmountable obstacles—a rough and chaotic childhood and later a battle with opiate addiction—to become one of the world’s pre-eminent master athletes. He consistently takes the podium at prestigious marathons, including a recent age group world champion title at the Chicago Marathon plus wins in the 50+ division of the New York City, Boston, and Tokyo Marathons. This summer Ken debuted his ultra career by not only completing the Gobi March, a grueling 155-mile, self-supported, 7-day stage run across the harsh desert terrain of Mongolia, but outright winning it by over 84 minutes. Today we unpack Ken’s extraordinary Gobi March win, his unique strategy in the race, and what motivates his beast-like drive. We also discuss the mindset tools, discipline, consistency, and humility that fuel his growth and help him get better, faster, and stronger in his 50s. Ken is one of a kind, bullshit-free, and 100% authentically himself. His vulnerability is refreshing. His perseverance is remarkable. And his message is powerful: nothing good happens when you’re comfortable. Show notes + MORE Watch on YouTube Newsletter Sign-Up Today’s Sponsors: Momentous: LiveMomentous.com/RICHROLL Babbel: Babbel.com/RICHROLL On: On.com/richroll AG1: drinkAG1.com/RICHROLL BetterHelp: BetterHelp.com/RICHROLL Peace + Plants, Rich

You can't be afraid to fail. That voice in my head that was like, man, this is scary. And the other voice was like, that's why we're doing it. If you don't put yourself in uncomfortable positions, it's hard to get any growth there because you will fail.

Like if you try to do epic shit, you're going to fail. The coward and the hero feel the same exact emotion when confronted with a situation. It's just how do you act in response to the fear? If there is one word to describe Ken Rideout, I would say that word is authentic. He is the real deal. He's always unapologetically himself, and he's back today for a glorious round two. Back in August of 2022, Ken, on his first appearance on the podcast, shared tales from his rough Boston upbringing, his journey from prison guard to Wall Street, the opioid addiction that nearly broke him, and his met up titles at some of the planet's most prestigious

races, including a recent age group world championship title at last month's Chicago Marathon. Today, we go deeper into what motivates his beastlike drive. We talk about the what's and how's behind his professional approach to training and racing, along with an array of powerful lessons on the mindset, discipline, consistency, and humility that keeps him getting better and faster into his 50s. And we do all of this through Ken recapping his very first ultra experience, the Gobi March, which is this brutal 155-mile race across the Mongolian desert that Ken not only finished, but actually won it. And he won it by over 84 minutes. Ken is extraordinary. His stories are just wild. And his counsel is both inspiring and actionable. So here we go. Round two with Ken Rideout.

actionable. So here we go. Round two with Ken Rideout. Good to see you, man. Good to see you, brother. We talked way too much before this thing started. That's all right. I have a short memory. Yeah, but let's start off with what's been happening recently because you just notched your belt with a few interesting experiences right to say the least seven days out in the desert in mongolia doing this gobi march your first ultra i remember when uh you pinged me and you're like hey i'm gonna do this thing i'm thinking about signing up for this race and i was like call me we gotta talk you i was telling you guys you lit a fire under my ass i had initially told a friend of mine called james dav, who's like a CEO at Deutsche Bank. I knew he was familiar with like Marathon de Sable and a few ultra events that he knew.

We had talked about them before in passing. And I said, yo, you know this race? And he's like, yeah, that would be great. I said, I'm thinking of doing it. Am I crazy? And he said, oh, if you could get top five in that, man, that would impressive and immediately i was like top five what the fuck is this guy i'm winning and i was like i know it sounds irrational but there's like almost like two voices in my head there's one that's like trying to like create like self-preservation and another one that's like

just a little bit louder that's like we can win anything we want so one guy's like dude don't do that you're gonna embarrass us please we don't know what we're doing i know from iron man when you do those longer events there's just so many things you don't know for the first time like when experience counts for so much i know that i've never run with a backpack i've never slept in a tent i take two showers a day no shower for seven days i was like am i crazy i but the other voice was like fuck that let's do this we'll figure it out on the fly it'll be a real challenge and like let's get uncomfortable yeah and then i and then and then when i text you and you're like oh that's a clean

many ultra runners all i heard was you're not tough enough for that oh that's what you heard yes that's not what i was saying i know know. What I said, as I recall, was you gotta toss out the window everything you think you know about running a race because all the experience that you've had running marathons, obviously there's value in that, but this is a whole different animal.

And you've gotta like let go of pushing the pace and it's all about economy and efficiency. And the discipline is oriented around holding back and choosing your moments and sort of conserving your energy. Yeah, I did none of that. I wouldn't think that that is your strong suit. I did none of that.

You did none. And then I told you to call Houth, right? Yes, yes. Did you speak to him? I spoke to Houth. I spoke to Charlie Engel who won it the first year they held it. But again, when you said it claimed many an ultra runner, I was like, it hasn't claimed me yet.

And I was like, I know what you meant. I knew you had the best intentions, but I used that as like motivation. I was like, I signed up as soon as I got that text from you. I was like, I'm in, I'm doing it. And then I talked to Charlie and it's funny. In hindsight, he was like, no, up as soon as I got that text from you. I was like, I'm in. I'm doing it. And then I talked to Charlie, and it's funny. In hindsight, he was like, no, you don't really need poles. You don't really need gators for your shoes. I needed everything.

I mean, at one point, we were going up a mountain on the first stage, and the two kids who were competitive with me, an Israeli and a Swiss athlete, they blew past me with poles and left me like for dead. And I was hands on knees trying to get up like a black diamond ski slope. And it wasn't on a trail. It was just up the side of a mountain. It was so crazy. Every day I felt like asking someone like, how did you guys get liability insurance? This is the most dangerous thing I've ever done by far. I remember thinking that when I did Otillo and we're out in open water and the sea is pitching, you know, seven foot swells and the boats are going like this. I was like, this race would never happen

in the United States. No. There's no way, right? What did, it's interesting. Why did Charlie tell you not to have poles? You would think that he would have had experience to say, yeah, work that out. I mean, I guess in hindsight,

I could make a case for not having them, but I think I would have been better off with them. But still, it wasn't like, obviously, it wasn't detrimental. But after the first day, so back to your point about being patient. First day, so you want me to like walk through as quickly like this? Yeah, well, let's just explain what the race is. Sure. The Gobi March, seven days, seven stages, 155 miles.

How did it break down? So it was like, there was a rest day in there because on the 50 mile day, people take more than 24 hours. So it was 21 miles, 28, 24, 50 on the Wednesday, but then you don't go again till Friday, which that was one of the hardest parts for me. Like finishing Wednesday at 5 p.m. and not go again till Friday, which that was one of the hardest parts for me. Like finishing Wednesday at 5 p.m. and not racing again till Friday morning,

like hanging out in the camp with freeze-dried food, like starving. I was burning 10,000 calories a day and eating 2,500 every single day. But in a weird way, and Charlie had mentioned this, he's like, you'll get stronger as the week goes by. Just like, have you ever noticed it? Like if you go to a cycling training camp, by the end end you're a beast yeah and like second or third day you're

like i'm never going to be able to finish this but your body is so freaking resilient that it just it adapted adjusted to the food it adjusted to everything and like everything was like functioning regularly except my sleep was just fucking terrible sleeping on the grounds on a thin mat with a sleeping bag oh i got two hours of sleep the night after the 50 mile stage and three hours the following night i just could not sleep but during the 50 mile stage i had taken a ton of caffeinated um hydration tablets that i picked up from someone who dropped out so i was just way too much i don't i don't metabolize caffeine well, but yeah, you're, you're charged up enough to say the least. So then after that 50, you have that day off and then you have, I think it's a marathon and then

it ends with a five miler. Yeah. So, so I'll, I'll quickly walk through like the progression. So you get into, I get into Mongolia, let's say on Friday, Saturday, they drive us out into the desert and we camp that night. And, um, I had brought, they said you could bring a one man tent if you wanted. So I was like, yeah, I don't want to sleep in a communal tent. I'll bring a, I'll bring a one man tent again, not knowing anything. I get the smallest tent. You can get like a bicycle tent that you can take on a bike trip. And I get there and the people in the one man tents are in tents that look like they could camp bike trip. And I get there and the people in the one man tents are in tents that look like they could camp on Everest. And I'm like, this, this tent practically has two rooms in it. Like I've got a tent that like I can barely fit in. So before the thing started,

I asked the organizers, I basically was like, Oh, one of my tent poles got bent in transit. Is there any chance I could jump into one of these communal tents? And she was like, yeah, there's a tent you can get in that one. And the night dude it pours it's raining sideways I'm like oh my god the tent's gonna blow away I don't I'm having an anxiety attack I don't know anyone I'm like I feel like an outsider it's very clicky everyone knows each other they weren't unfriendly but no one was like overly friendly to me whatsoever and before I had gotten there the organizer was like oh my. I had sent her some articles about my background and stuff. So she let me in with like four weeks to go. And she's like, I'll put this all in your bio.

I said, I'd rather not. I don't want anything in my bio. I don't want anyone to know I'm coming. I kind of wanted to creep up on her. You're like playing mind games. Yeah, from the beginning. So, yeah, so we wake up and we go the first day. And sure enough, two, three guys take it out super hard.

And I'm like, holy shit, this is going to be the pace. I figured I'm going to win or die trying. So I'm just going to stay with the leaders. I'm not going to lead, but I'm going to stay with them. And funny because there was a British kid who was just frigging flying and he ended up not finishing. And we're running. I'm like, yo, are you a marathon runner? He's like, I haven't run a marathon, but I run half marath i'm like oh what's your pr he's like 107 i'm like oh for

christ sake this guy can run so um yeah but but to my earlier point yeah this you know how relevant is that in a seven-day race clearly not at all because he didn't survive he was out after like two or three days that's wild what was the training like leading up to it? Did you just stick to your 10 miles a day routine and just went into it? For four weeks, I cycled through maybe four or five different backpacks until I found one that wouldn't like burn holes in my back. When the chafing on my back and my hips and my waist, it was unbearable. Like bleeding every day. Well, it's good that you tested that out ahead of time.

Instead of just showed up with a backpack. And just to be clear, self-supported means you're carrying all your food in your backpack. Are you carrying your tents also, like everything that you need? No, the only thing that they would transport for you, the tent thing, which I didn't end up using was new because of COVID.

They gave people the option if you didn't wanna be in a communal tent in the last two years, and they've just kept it. So there was only like five or 10 people that had a single man tent, but you could also, because of COVID, they wanted all the doors to stay open. So they would allow you to send a supplemental backpack. So of course I hear this and like, all I'm thinking is like strategy, right? And how can I win? So she tells me this, I go, so let me get this straight. If I a supplemental backpack so of course i hear this and like all i'm thinking is like strategy right and how can i win so she tells me this i go so let me get this straight if i carry like you had to have a backpack a sleeping bag that went down to 32 degrees or zero celsius so that had to be rated down there so i got a high tech like sea to summit sleeping bag but i said for the supplemental

like hypothetically if i had the one that went down to 50 below that was super thick like a massive camping sleep bag she's like yeah whatever you want so that's what I got so I would lay that down and sleep on top of that with my other sleeping bag so that kind of provided some pad and I had an inflatable like little cushion thing that I but my backpack at the beginning without water weighed 21 pounds and the other the swiss guy who was like the main competition his backpack at the start weighed like 14 pounds right and it was streamlined and he had won like three of these races and dude it was funny we were sitting there the day before i was sitting with my friend scott derue who's the president of equinox who's originally told me

about the race that he was doing the race and um I had never met him in person, just via email. And was sitting there, and a photographer from the race sits down with us in Mongolia at this hotel we're at. And he's like, oh, I said, hey, are there any guys here who have won before? He's like, oh, Reinhold so-and-so is here from Switzerland. He's won like three of them. He's unbelievable. I was like, oh, okay.

And the guy doesn't know me. I don't know him. So I'm like, all right, Reinhold's the guy doesn't know me i don't know him so i'm like all right ryan holds the guy and he's going down so in my mind i'm like i'm killing this guy uh-huh so uh he's got everything dialed i mean he's he's flawless his he all his shit is perfect like special forces he's like special forces and i'm like the guy from stripes the movie stripes just like completely disheveled in height. But you got the unknown factor. Yes. Yeah.

It's interesting in thinking about preparing for this. You tested out the backpacks, but ideally I would imagine, it probably would have been good to do some rucking on loose sand or go to sand dunes and all that kind of stuff. You didn't do any of that. I tested out a bunch of shoes.

I went through maybe four or five pair of shoes because the nice thing is with the consistency of the training that i've done when i add on like if i try a new pair of shoes and run 10 or 15 miles you know by the end if something's even slightly amiss so i tried a few got a few blisters here and there knew what to do and then uh hoka came through and actually sent me some great like speed goats and um another model that i can't think of, like a top trail shoe, but not the speed goat. And that's the one that I went with. So they sent me two of those, but you know, with trail shoes, the bottom is so hard. If you're running on, um, concrete, it's almost counterproductive.

It like hurts your feet. And I was only running on pavement. Just, that's just the route that I had in Nashville. And, uh, so yeah, I had no sand, no trails, but I just figured like neither does anyone else. Like I have more consistency and I've run every single day for so many years that if we all have to recover the next day, I think I bet that I can recover quicker than them.

That was my like assumption. And that ended up playing out, but I wasn't confident that it would I was just praying that it would so the strategy being stick with the leaders but remain just behind them like you're like you're a lion tracker or something right at some point though is there like an inflection point where you make a move or what changes so the first day we're all together and with like five miles to go we get to like the side of a mountain and it's just up straight reflection point where you make a move or what changes? So the first day we're all together and with like five miles to go, we get to like the side of a mountain and it's just up straight up.

And those, the two, the Swiss guy and the Israeli guy get away from me. And I'm like, holy shit. And when we get to the top, we're traversing across the side of a ridgeline, but we're not on the top of it. We're on the side where like, if you have a misstep, I'm not exaggerating. If you have a misstep, you're going to fall down the mountain. And this pack is so heavy. Like if you get out of balance, you're going down. So we get, I get over that. They, they're off the front. Like now they're like a mile ahead of me. And with maybe a mile or two miles to go, um, a really cool Italian journalist called Filippo Rossi. He's a huge Rich Roll fan. There was two Italians there, Filippo and Giuseppe.

They loved you. They were like, call Rich Roll, call Rich Roll. I'm like, we don't have reception, and I would never do that. So he runs. Shout out to those guys. Shout out to the Italian journalist. And so he runs past me, and I'm like, oh, my God. I'll be lucky just to be in the top five, Like James said, holy shit. I'm, I'm nervous now too. We get to like with less than a mile to go, we go through

this like an old half dried up river, but it's like ankle deep mud. I fall down in the mud. I'm like, I am a buffoon. I feel so stupid. I've been blown out. I'm covered in mud and I limp in and I got the vibe from those guys. Cause now like, you know, we've been blown out. I'm covered in mud and I limp in and I got the vibe from those guys. Cause now like, you know, we've been, we were talking during the, during the stage and we had the morning and I think that people are starting to recognize that like, I'm, you know, I'm someone to be, uh, aware of. And I get the vibe that they're kind of like, yeah, that we, we taught him a lesson kind of. And if that isn't the vibe, that's what I'm telling myself. These guys think they got me on the ropes.

But I'm like, all right, let's see what happens tomorrow. I'm going to be much more conservative. So the next day is 28 miles longest I've ever run. And I just stay conservative and I stay. The Swiss and the Israeli guy get off the front, but I can see them. And we get to a couple hills. I get back on them. I'm not pushing in slowly and

steadily. I just like pulled away from them without trying. I just stayed steady. And, uh, with like 10 K to go, I can't even see them behind me. I'm blowing them out. And I slip and fall in the strap on my backpack where it attaches to the pack down at the bottom, rips off the backpack, the strap on my backpack where it attaches to the pack down at the bottom rips off the backpack, just rips. And I fall down and I bust my elbow open unbeknownst to me. So I get up in a panic and I'm running, holding this strap with this pack, which is super heavy. And my elbow is pouring blood, but I don't know. I'm just covered. I'm drenched in sweat. I'm caked in salt and I'm running in the desert, right? And so i'm wiping the blood which i think is sweat and i'm touching my face and i'm when i finished i'm covered in blood and they're

like oh my god what's wrong i'm like they go what's wrong i'm like yeah look my freaking backpack broke and they're like no no you're bleeding everywhere i'm like no i'm not bleeding and they're like no you're covered in blood i'm'm like, I'm definitely not bleeding. And I'm like, oh, my elbow's bleeding. Anyway, I cleaned it all up. That's like some Apocalypse Now shit, like Alien versus Predator. Dude, it was. But then I was like-

So what do you make of that though? Is that the recovery kicking in, your ability to bounce back the next day? Like those guys made, you know, put in a big effort the day before. I think they put in too big. They couldn't sustain it. Yeah, they put in too big effort the day before i think they put it they couldn't they couldn't sustain it yeah they put in too big but but they were they would they weren't done like the swiss guy wasn't done everyone else lost time every day but the swiss guy was like a real athlete

like he was he was like a mountaineer so like on the on the climbs in the descents he was super efficient like real good so that was day two day three starts with i am not shitting you like rock climbing like hands and knees climbing up rocks dangerous like i'm like how is everyone gonna get up this thing there's no way and uh the swiss guy within the first mile he's gone i can't even see him i managed to fix my bag with a i took a scalpel from the doctor poked some holes in it and put zip ties through and zip tied it onto the bag. Three miles into stage three, they burst off. So it was such a disaster, but it was like a crisis management.

I took out the knife that I was forced to carry, cut the bag, pulled the strap through the thick part that goes down your chest. And I pulled it through and tied a knot and it held miraculously. And then after that stage, someone who dropped out gave me their backpack and they took mine. So about 15 miles into that, this is a 24 mile stage, about 15 miles in we get to the sand dunes. And I'm talking like,

just imagine the loosest sandy beach you've ever been to. And you've got like six miles to go and it's hills. So at one point there's probably 200 yards, like a black diamond ski slope straight up. I'm on my hands and knees, like in the sand, like Navy SEAL stuff buried in sand. Your 10 miles a day is not preparing you for something like that.

Nothing is. Like all the full body stuff. Like 10 people dropped out at that sand dune and they could only rescue them with camels. And the camel couldn't get up that sand dune. So if you you were up you had to slide back down because the camel couldn't get up so i get up to the top of it the swiss guys off the front i can't see them behind me and i'm like i'm sand is everywhere so much so that when i get out of the sand dune portion i have to take off my shoes and socks and get this sand though because it's like sandpaper and uh i made some

funny videos i showed you guys that I'm going to give them. They want to put into the video. They're real funny. Where I'm talking to the camera like, I'm in fucking hell. Yeah, we're fucking roughing it. This is adventure racing, apparently. My first and last one. That looks nice.

About to piss down rain on our whole camp i'm gonna die this is i can't believe i did this i'm never doing this again so anyway i lost like four minutes so at that point i'm 12 minutes down but i'm in second by 30 minutes and then the next day is the 50 mile stage and that's when like the race got broken open and when i like basically killed the guy and then saved his life is that because it was less technical that day or why were you able to gap him on that day when you were behind the day before? Good question. So this day was just like slow and steady wins the race. It was just constant undulation over fields and pastures and up and down monstrous hills. And then the steeps were just as hard as the uphills so about 12 or 15 miles in

i'm listening to music in one airpod and uh just to keep my mind busy and i ran next to the swiss guys with us the three of us we always start together but the swiss guy can tends to get dropped like a third to halfway through so i run next to him and i was like, hey, Dudu, did I tell you that I fucking never get tired? I feel so good today. Like, I think we might be able to break a record. Within one mile, I look back and he's got his poles out walking. So that was the moment. That was when the Israeli guy go, now it's just me and the leader.

And we're together from 15 to 30. And we're working together. At this point, like, there's so much camaraderie now that I've almost abandoned racing him. And I'm like, let's just get through this together. We'll race another day. Cause this is like, this is challenging. We're in the desert, 50 miles. The checkpoints are like six to nine miles apart, which is a long way. So you've got to get a shit load of water, which is heavy. And, um, you know, we're, we're getting through it. So we're walking the uphills. We're pushing the downhills. we're pushing the flats. And around mile 30, we hit a

checkpoint and there's one more checkpoint around 43, maybe they were super spread out. Maybe it was 35. So after that checkpoint, we come out of there in a little village and we're running a flat and he's like, I got to walk for a minute. And I'm like, okay, I'm going to walk with them. Like we're alone in the desert. There's like an element of like danger too so it's not just like i'm gonna step on your neck now like a marathon so i'm like all right i'll walk with you let's let's go let's i said let's walk to one flag we'll run to two and let's just see if we can get some life back so then he's like man i'm low on water i don't fucking where's that checkpoint and he's deteriorating fast so now i'm giving him my water I'm pouring water on his head I'm like look mom man just like get to that next checkpoint and you'll be good you take a rest

so then very quickly he's like I gotta sit down and I'm like dude don't sit please don't sit down give me your backpack I'll carry it and he's like no no I can't let you do it I'll get disqualified I'm like you want to get disqualified or you want to die like we're in no man's land and there's no support vehicles and then so we're going to this he sits down I'm trying to you want to get disqualified or you want to die? Like we're in no man's land and there's no support vehicles. And then, so we're going to, as he sits down, I'm trying to shade him with my body. I'm giving him all my water. And then a, uh, a support vehicle eventually comes by. I was so pissed off.

I was like, dude, what the fuck, man? Someone's going to die out here. Like, what are you guys doing? The checkpoints are so far away. A fucking camel can't make it that far without water. So they come and they get him. So they're tending to him and I take off, dude, from – I think they got him around 43 miles. I put my head down and drilled it from 43 to 50, faster than seven miles of the whole race I think I ran.

And I got in there right at like 5 p.m. We started at 8, so I think it was that nine hours. And that's where I just blew it open. At that point, I had like an 80-minute lead. And then you get a little bit of a rest. You're staring at 26 the next day, and you're like, well, that's my jam. Yeah, I was like, hey, 90 minutes, no one's beating me. Like at this point now, my confidence was through the roof.

I'm like, no one's beating me. I'm not giving away any stages. I'm winning everything. So you end up winning this race by 90 minutes. Yes. Right? First ever ultra. First of all,

what was the sort of response to that amongst this, you know, kind of clicky ultra trail community of people who'd never heard of you before with the blank bio? The people that by the end, everyone's super supportive because you're in it for a week together,

but it was like, probably like a little bit mixed emotions like damn it this guy came in and beat us all at our own game a little bit it wasn't like you know um when they were giving out the awards for example the the race director the woman's like everyone comes up big hug oh great i come up it's like cold shan shake congratulations so i was like cool. See, but the response from our community and in a weird way, like I genuinely felt this the whole time I was there. Like I felt a sense of community with even people like yourself, Rob Moore, my partner, Teddy Atlas. Like I think about all these things. And again, I was telling you guys earlier, a lot of times the reality of a situation doesn't really matter. The only reality that matters is your reality, the story you tell

yourself. So I'm telling myself, yeah, I'm representing my people here. All the people that I've like know and train with and have trained with over the years and have raced with and the people that I'm friends with, I'm like, I'm representing all of them. A win for one, a win for one of us is a win for all of us. I really believe that and felt that. Cause I know when Des Linden won the Boston marathon, like I was crying. I was like, Oh my God, we did it. I know that she's your girl. Yeah. But I was like, so when I won, I was like, yeah, man, I did it. I like in a weird way, I felt like I did this. It was a reflection of everyone. I'm not, I'm just one person, but I'm like a product of the people that I'm around all the time. And I'm a product of the

work that I've done with these people. And, um, but no one more so than my family, my family has seen me do like win races and, and, and do stuff that they're proud of, but nothing like this. Yeah. The response that they got and that they gave me was overwhelming like moved me to tears like I came home there was signs all over the house the kids were just like plus the kids are getting older I think they realized the like magnitude and like how shocking it was to others and to myself like oh my god I did this like I still can't believe it wild but so that part was just crazy like as as an example, my wife never posts anything about me on, on Facebook or a thing. We're not the type to be like, yeah, look at, you know,

so proud of my partner. We just don't do that. And just, just because we know how we feel about each other. But on this one, she posted a big thing on Facebook. Like I'm so proud of my husband. And I know that she must've been like really moved to post that. So it was like, it was moving. It was, man, it was beautiful. I mean, congrats. It's really quite something that you went out there and conquered that thing on your first time out. It's unbelievable.

It's just, I was telling you guys, I was like, I feel like I'm talking about a third person. Like, I can't believe that guy did that. I can't believe I did it. I'm so lucky. I'm so thankful and just, it all paid off. So I wanna get into the mindset a little bit. When you're in those low moments

and you're summoning that urgency or that competitive spirit that you have within you, or you're thinking about your community and how you're going to sort of represent them adequately to the best of your ability. Like, how do you stay present with that? Or what are some of the tools that you tap into to get you through those low moments?

Because in an ultra, in a seven-day thing, you're gonna have high highs, you're gonna feel good, you're gonna feel like shit. You know, if you feel like shit, if you stick with it, that'll pass, you'll start to feel good again. But how do you weather those and really stay focused on the larger goal that you're trying to achieve? Yeah, no, that's a great question. And a lot of times we hear people talk about mindset and all this kind of stuff that can kind of sound

cliche on the surface, unless you really like dig deep into it. And I sincerely believe that if you don't put yourself in uncomfortable positions, whether it's starting a business, learning an instrument, it doesn't have to be running. But if you never do anything uncomfortable, it's hard to get any growth there because the pressure's not on. I need a little bit of pressure and kind of scrutiny to kind of dig deep. And I was like this, I couldn't think of something more uncomfortable, any one day event. Cool. I can show up and got my way through it. Seven days of camping and really having to manage the food and manage to like my, like be responsible for my system, my sleep system and, and everything associated with it was like incredibly intimidating and uncomfortable, but that's why I did it.

I was like so frigging scared that when I heard about the event, there was like I said, that voice in my head that was like, man, this is scary. And the other voice was like, that's why we're doing it. And I know it's like, I don't want to sound cliche or like it's hyperbole, but it's the truth. I was like, holy shit, that's scary.

Fucking let's do it. Because if you don't, like, okay, I won. But if I didn't show up and try, I definitely wouldn't win. So it was kind of like, who knows? I mean, who knows? Maybe if I show up and do Leadville, maybe I can win that. Can I win Badwater? The one thing's for sure, if you don't get on the

start line, no one's going to win. Are you going to make a pronouncement right now about Leadville, Western States, Badwater? You got your boy Charlie on speed dial for your Badwater prep. You might have to run a little bit more than 10 miles a day to get ready for that one. I don't know. We're brought to you today by recovery.com. I've been in recovery for a long time. It's not hyperbolic to say that I owe everything good in my life to sobriety.

And it all began with treatment and experience that I had that quite literally saved my life. And in the many years since, I've in turn helped many suffering addicts and their loved ones find treatment. And with that many years since, I've in turn helped many suffering addicts and their loved ones find treatment. And with that, I know all too well just how confusing and how overwhelming and how challenging it can be to find the right place and the right level of care,

especially because unfortunately, not all treatment resources adhere to ethical practices. It's a real problem. A problem I'm now happy and proud to share has been solved by the people at recovery.com who created an online support portal designed to guide, to support, and empower you to find the ideal level of care tailored to your personal needs. They've partnered with the best global behavioral health providers to cover the full spectrum of behavioral health disorders, including substance use disorders, depression, anxiety, eating disorders, gambling addictions, and more. Navigating their site is simple. Search by insurance coverage, location, treatment type, you name it. Plus, you can read reviews from former patients to help you decide. Whether you're a busy exec, a parent of a struggling teen, or battling addiction yourself, I feel you.

I empathize with you. I really do. And they have treatment options for you. Life in recovery is wonderful, and recovery.com is your partner in starting that journey. is your partner in starting that journey. When you or a loved one need help, go to recovery.com and take the first step towards recovery. To find the best treatment option for you or a loved one, again, go to recovery.com. You know, what's interesting is it's one thing to go from marathoning and elite marathoning at the level at which you do it to step into an ultra. Most people would start out with a 50K or a 50 miler.

At a minimum, they would enter a race in which you have crew support. They're feeding you. They're taking care of you. They're reading the signs and you're always sort of being held by a group of people who can provide as much kind of morale support as nutritional support. But you sidestepped all of that, did a multi-day race. Your head's not hitting the pillow at home

after that thing each night. And all the mental space that you have to devote to the logistics, to the food, to all the tiny, I mean, this is one of the things we talked about when we talked, like it's these tiny little things that are easy to forget about that can derail you. You get one blister in the wrong place and like you're done because you didn't make sure that you put your socks on right or you didn't tape your toes or whatever it is. And it's just you and you, you got no one there to remind you

about any of that kind of stuff. So how much of that experience was devoted to, kind of the mental aspects of the logistics, right? Because when you're running a marathon, it's like you got this, your tunnel vision on getting to that finish line and you don't really have to worry about much else. There's aid stations, et cetera. But here you've got all these tactics that are brand new to you that can sort of rob you of the mental energy

that you would normally devote to just performance. That's exactly why I did it. I know I can show up and be competitive in a 50K or a 50 mile. I know I can. And maybe someone listens like, fuck this guy. He can't do it. I know I can be competitive. I didn't know what I could do here. And I had spent so long since I felt nervous about attempting something. I always feel nervous about hitting my goals, but to feel nervous about actually being able to complete the event was a new level of nerves. I mean, it was mad anxiety. And to your point, anything could happen to every day at the end of these stages, people would be in the medical tent. Their feet look like they walked on hot

coals and I couldn't help but to walk over and be like, dude, what the fuck? Have you done any training? How can your feet be like that after the second day? Like how much running have you done? I mean, if you've been running, you shouldn't have blissed like your feet of like that after the second day like how much running have you done i mean if you've been running you shouldn't have bliss like your feet are not blisters dude skin gone feet like their feet and all that kind of stuff everything i i'd never seen you didn't have any of those problems i had a couple small blisters that were even with the gators you were able to keep the sand out of your no in the snow sand would pour in and anytime it got too heavy i just have to sit down and pour it out quickly. But the whole time that I did this, I kept that like tortoise in the hare mentality where I'm like, I'm keeping moving.

I'm never stopping. If I have to walk, I'll walk, lower my heart rate, and then I'll jog. And then the backpack was such a variable that I hadn't considered. I mean, it tore the shit out of my body. I mean, every day I was like covered in road rash, like basically. But to your point, there's a lot of mental energy that's spent on making sure you're eating right.

Am I getting enough calories? Do I have enough like meal replacement bars to eat during the stage? Because afterwards, you know, you're eating freeze dried food, pretty standard. You're just hungry a lot. And I was really focusing on hydration and fueling during the stage. And then afterwards I was like, fuck it, I'm hungry.

I'll, I'll survive. Like it's, it's not forever. And I just kept the other thing that I kept telling myself that, that sincerely work. Like we talk about mindset again, and it's easy to gloss over it. But I kept reminding myself that I have the best life in the world. I'm the luckiest guy in the world. I have the fucking nicest kids. I've created everything that I've ever wanted for myself. I'm lucky. I'm so grateful. And I just kept saying, this is temporary. You can take the easy way here and look for any excuse to get out of here. My bag ripped, my elbows hurt, I've got a blister.

Or you can dig deep and you'll be so much happier when you get home and this is behind you. And the other thing I would remind myself when it would get really hard and really hot, I would say, yo, Special Forces guys are doing this every single day like it's their job because it is. And someone's trying to kill them while they're doing it. So I'm like, are you kidding me? Someone's going gonna save me if i drop dead out here or if i faint we're good

and i would just literally anytime i got that in that negative space i'd be like this is easy in the grand scheme of life compared to what some people have been through in the level of persecution i'm like so i have to cover 28 miles or 50 miles today? Like, this isn't challenging. I voluntarily, I paid for this. Yeah, you volunteered for it. Yeah, you're not being forced to do this. Exactly. Right?

Which brings me to this thought that I think we talked a little bit about the first time, which is this unique sort of combination of different sensibilities that you have. On the one hand, you have this incredible certainty. Like you're like, I'm gonna win. I know I'm gonna win. You just, you go into these races

with a level of self-confidence and belief in your own capacity and ability to outmatch the best of them. But on the other hand, you also have this really genuine humility. Like you are in awe of the elites. Like the way that you talk about Des Linden or the other elite marathoners or- Or Cam Wurf. Yeah, Cam, our boy Cam, who just went up on the pod.

Love him. Yeah. It's like you have a reverence and a respect for the level at which they execute their craft. and a respect for the level at which they execute their craft. And that's a unique combination because usually somebody who holds that kind of reverence doesn't have that level of self-confidence and certainty that you have. So how do you, like, what is that mix all about? Well, I think that I'm a realist.

Like I know the difference between me and professional runners is far I know the difference between me and professional runners is far greater than the difference between me and the next like level of amateur athletes. It's, it's, it's massive. They're on a pedestal. They're like miles ahead. This is their job. This is my hobby. And I love being the best that I can be, but I'm also very aware of the differences between the elites and then the like decent age group runners. Like at the Bear Mile that I did in Chicago, we'll talk about in a minute,

I won the like quote unquote celebrity heat. Yeah, I didn't know until I read about it. I thought you won the whole thing and then I read the article on the outside. He's like, oh, he didn't win the whole thing. No, I wouldn't. He ran like 650 or something. Like the guy who won it ran 430.

And the guy who won it sent me a beautiful DM afterwards and I almost glossed over and then I looked back and I was like, oh my God, that's the guy who won it ran 430. And the guy who won it sent me a beautiful DM afterwards. And I almost glossed over. And then I looked back and I was like, oh my God, that's the guy who won. I'm like, dude, congratulations. And he writes back, dude, you killed it. You're a legend. I said, legend? I said, you're a real runner.

I'm like the tallest short person. And he's like, no, no, no. Everyone who runs is a real runner. But he just couldn't have been a nice guy. But that was a perfect example of how I think about it. It's like'm the tallest short person and these guys are like the killers. I mean, but I will say I only ran 650. I wasn't challenged. I was drinking out of a can. I do think, and it was the first time. And it was athletic brewing, right? It was an NA beer. But I will say that knowing what I know now, whether it was real beer or NA, like I know that I could be closer to six minutes with a little bit of practice.

And again, that wouldn't have been threatening anyone. But I was like, this was, the drinking the beer part was harder, but the running was easier than I thought it would be. After 200 meters, halfway around the track, you start to like, the carbonation comes up and you're like into a groove. But then as soon as you get into the groove, you're like, oh my God, I got to chug another beer. So it was the national championships of the beer mile, right?

It was the beer mile world championships in Chicago sponsored by Athletic Brewing who sponsored me for the Gobi race. Great guys, awesome guys. And they invited me out there to do that. So I would race Nev Shulman, who's a good friend of mine. I've met me but i know who he is shark tank um no catfish he's casey's boy yeah yeah yeah yeah that's how i met casey through casey nice that through neve so uh carlin and he's a really good runner really good yeah uh carlin aisles who's like the fastest rugby player

in the world two-time olympian this guy ran ran like a 47-400 when he was competing in track. Like elite, elite sprinter, like 10-1-7-100. Like elite. So I was like, this guy's going to blow me out. And I walk under the tent before the event. He's like, oh, here he comes. Here's the champ. This guy's going to kill everyone.

I'm like, is he talking about me? This is like a real athlete. This guy's going kill everyone i'm like is he talking about me this is like a real athlete like this guy's gonna kill me uh and and cynthia uh cynthia from uh nfl networks she does this she's a statistician at nfl networks and uh darren rovell uh the business reporter sports business reporter and um francis ellis from barstool sports who's's hilarious, really funny guy, went to Harvard. And yeah, they just, it wasn't very competitive, but it was a fun time. The people couldn't have been nicer. It was like, it was such a nice break after the Gobi race to go there and just like, the people were so kind to me. I was so, I never felt so much gratitude. And my wife came with me

first time she's ever come to any race. We got babysitter she came and she was just like wow a lot of people there knew who you were i was like it's crazy isn't it like i can't believe it well you're getting a lot you're getting a lot of ink lately buddy yeah wall street journal new york times you're having a moment it's crazy isn't it the craziest thing of all that my friend uh nate check it's at roan apparel he introduced me to a dude named brent montgomery who i've become very good friends with and brent is the head of wheelhouse productions big production company they produce alone duck dynasty pawn stars intervention like they're legit they have some huge tv shows and uh we're working on a couple tv show concepts right now in conjunction with a couple networks that and we're like right on the finish line.

And if one of them gets done, man, I might be hosting a primetime network TV show. Yeah, it's crazy. Which is a dream come true. You shared with me a little bit about that. Are you allowed to talk about what those concepts are? I can, just about what I've just said. So, you know, coming to television sets soon.

Yeah. And ride out. Along the lines of prison. It sounds like it's something you were born to do. It's like a dream come true. If it gets made, it would be too good to be true. I don't know that my body could handle so much gratitude. Wow.

In reflecting, now it's been, what has it been like three or four weeks since the Gobi thing? Two weeks. It's only been two weeks. Wow. Thinking back on that experience, what did you learn about not just yourself but also about preparing for and running an ultra that you wish you knew going into it

the things that i wish i knew were just small technical aspects about how to get lighter, how to be a little bit more proficient with the pack. But honestly, I would say, like I said earlier, until you show up and try something, you just don't know. I think that there are a lot of people out there that can do a lot of things, but they don't have the guts to get on the start line. And it does take a lot of guts to commit to something like that. I mean, dude, even fly, imagine you're on like a 20 hour flight to Korea. And the whole time I'm like, what am I doing? There isn't a single ounce of happiness the whole

time. It's just dread. Like, and I was like, I have to get out of this mindset. But I was also like, okay, as soon as this thing starts, we'll start to get into a rhythm. But it was like super nervous, anxious feeling of just, let's just start. Let's just start. It's like, you know, showing up at the Boston Marathon three hours before the race starts. You're like, just shoot the gun. Let's do this. I don't like the anticipation.

By contrast to flight home, I was on cloud nine. I was like, oh, I'm so happy I did it. I can't believe it. I mean, you went into it with a level of confidence and certitude that at a minimum, you were gonna complete this thing. 100%. But when I look at it, I think what I take from your experience,

making that leap from marathoning into a multi-day race is proof positive that we're all capable of so much more than we allow ourselves to believe. And you fertilized a little seed of belief. And then you tested yourself at an adventure that probably a lot of people said, like, not so fast, buddy, like maybe start over here. You don't have to go all the way over here. And coming out the other side, victory aside, just to understand like, wow, like I actually did that. I put myself on the line. I did something I was scared to do. I was uncomfortable about it the

entire time. And I proved something to myself. And, you know, if we can all flex that a little bit more in our lives, not just in sport, but in all facets of our life, I think we all kind of come out the other side, better people, more robust people with a capacity for perseverance. And I know that's a big topic for you, right? Like, how do you think about perseverance? Yeah, I'm actually working on a speech. I've been lucky enough in the last year or two to give a few speeches to schools and companies. And I'm working on a speech now I've been lucky enough in the last year or two to give a few speeches to schools and companies. And I'm working on a speech now about the practice of perseverance, of actually putting yourself in positions intentionally that are super challenging. And like I said, it could be

anything. Maybe it's like taking jujitsu. Like that's something right now that's like on my list where I'm like, man, I'm so freaking nervous to go sign up for jujitsu. I've taken classes before, but my youngest son, dude, he's a killer. He's seven years old. Like he's ragdolling 12 year old kids. It's, I have four kids. I signed three, I signed all four up. Three of them quit. They didn't want it.

Understandably. The little one, it's like a dad's dream come true. I watch him and I'm like, i cannot believe what he's doing i cannot believe he's adapting and adjusting this quickly he's choking guys arm barring guys i'm like oh my god he's a killer but of all my kids he's the nicest so anyway he's a little what is he the one that that gets the mohawk haircut every year has to have it down this year he's like dad down to the skin down to the skin and i'm like mom's gonna kill us he's like i want it and i'm like all right as soon as school's over

but um yeah so i've been working on this concept of the practice of perseverance like i said it's just it's just putting yourself in a position where the only way you're getting through is to persevere maybe it's writing a book maybe it's learning the piano but we all have things that we wish we did or we wish we could do and I say maybe you want to fucking learn how to ride a skateboard in a ramp like I'd love to do that but I'm like do I really want to bust my ass 20 times to learn although it does look fun if you can learn how to do it kite surfing oh I'd love to do that looks so much fun but do I really want to get on and go through the whole learning process. But this is a perfect example with the kids. So my youngest and my oldest, so the youngest is doing jujitsu. The youngest and

the oldest went down and started wrestling. And they went with an elite wrestling team where I was like, guys, before we went in, I said, guys, listen, if you're not willing to be the worst and to be terrible, you'll never be the best. Because when Mike Tyson went into a boxing gym the first time, he was terrible. And if he wasn't willing to get beat up, he couldn't have become what he became. And that goes for any fighter and any wrestler. Anything you do, if you're not willing to stink initially, you can't get to the next level. Because if you could show up and be awesome on day one, then what the fuck would you want to be the best at it for if anyone can show up and be awesome? The point of having something that's important to you and an accomplishment is that it took perseverance.

And wrestling is a perfect example. So we went down. The people were super kind. The kids were nasty good. I mean, at one point, they're warming up. And the guy's like, all right, guys, cartwheels, forward rolls, back rolls. All all right guys cartwheels forward rolls back rolls all right guys back handsprings i'm like back handsprings someone's gonna break their neck a bunch of kids just guys start back handspringing that so my some of the kids just did like a back roll and popped up my little one flips right over

i'm like you know how to do a back handspring? He's like, no, I just made it up. Wow. But I mean, that's the way he is. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's the point is like, if you can't persevere through some discomfort, you can't get to like the promise. You can't get to the top of the mountain unless you're willing to persevere

up to like hot middle section where you're like questioning your like decision. And I believe that you can practice that ability to persevere through anything. And this to me was a lesson to myself, like, yeah, this sucks. I don't know if I can do this. I have never run in the desert. Like I said, I never slept in a tent. The whole thing overwhelmed me, but I was like, fuck it. I'm doing this. It's like jumping in the ocean and being like, Hey, I got to swim to that Island over there. Well, the only way I'm going to get there is if I jump in and start. So I just, that's the whole concept

is like finding things that intimidate you and scare you and figuring out, can you do it? And if you don't do it, what can I learn? What can I do differently? What can I do to go back and fix this? When I think about perseverance, I think about growth mindset versus fixed mindset, which is basically what you just laid out, right? Are you willing to look bad in front of other people? Are you willing to not be great at something and like liberate yourself from whatever narrative you tell yourself about where you're at, right?

You need that in order to grow. But beyond that, perseverance requires a capacity to suffer, a stick-to-itiveness, like a sense of belief in yourself to get you through hard times that comes with experience of continually putting yourself in those situations. And just an overall capacity to weather grit, right? And I often wonder how much of that is God-given, you come out of the womb or through the various experiences that you have as a young person that gets instilled into you or whether that's something that you can develop. Can you go from somebody who has a fixed mindset to a growth mindset? Can you be somebody who is fearful

and not somebody who's putting themselves in difficult situations and over time develop that grittiness, that ability to persevere? How much of this is innate versus something that you can learn and develop? I do believe that some people are born with the killer instinct that they're like, I'm doing everything. Life's an amusement park.

I'm riding every ride. And there's other people who are like, I'm sticking on the Ferris wheel. I know what I'm getting and it's cool and that's fine. But I think for the people that want to develop that mindset, that it's 100% achie. And it doesn't have to start with something as crazy as like going across the desert, but it might start with like signing up for a 5k for someone who's never run a mile and just being like, I'm setting some goals. I do believe that it becomes contagious. It's like losing weight or getting over drugs. It's like you start to build momentum with a little bit of longevity behind you, with sobriety, with weight loss. You start to see the results and you're like, oh shit, I might be able to do this.

But nothing changes unless something changes. You have to take the first step and like be willing to get uncomfortable. And I always think, man, when I'm feeling super comfortable and things are so good, even my wife would be like, dude, we're at the beach, just sit and chill. I'm like, I feel like I'm wasting time. But even my wife would be like, dude, we're at the beach. Just sit and chill. I'm like, I feel like I'm wasting time. I do think that there is an important component about being able to relax and unplug and decompress 100%. I don't do it well, but I do know that that's something that I've got to work on.

But that's the mindset that I've developed is like, man, life is short. And especially as I've turned 50, I'm like, oh oh my God, I'm on the back half, man. I got to make sure I get everything in within reason. And actually the last time I was here when my wife listened to the interview and she's like, man, that guy Rich, he's a mastermind. He could be a psychologist. He's like PhD in psychology. I'm like, what do you mean?

She's like, when he was asking you about, do you think your running has become a new addiction and could be like maybe an issue or something to that effect? I was like, yeah, 100%. I'm super aware of that and very cognitive of that. And I've thought a lot about it since then. And trying to find balance. And it's funny because after we did that interview and I thought a lot about that I went to a um a place called uh on-site workshop which is a trauma healing center there's one in uh Nashville and

one in uh SoCal and uh it was like life-changing for me it was in what way they basically you know I didn't think I had any trauma in my life I was like I had a traumatic childhood and I mean not relatively speaking not that bad oh come on Yeah. So they pulled the covers on that one quick. I would imagine. I was in one-on-one intensive therapy for like five or six hours a day with a psychologist that was like, by the end I was like, you're a fucking mastermind. You're a genius. Like you saw right through me. She was literally like, she just picked everything apart and all the things that i thought i was so confident about she was like is that really true and i was like dude i cried more in that week than i've cried in my life she would put that we had it was very

interactive which you know on the surface i'm like i don't want to do those hocus pocus shit but by the end i was like what else do you got for me tell me what else fucking paint rocks I'll do it let's keep going so she puts up all the stuff on the uh wall you know like about your childhood and who are these characters identify and we're going through it and so she's talking and then after a day or two she's like look up on the wall at like what you've reflected on as your childhood and you know she's like who would this person be I'm like fire breathing dragon she's like okay so she's like do you think that on as your childhood. And she's like, who would this person be? I'm like, fire breathing dragon. She's like, okay. So she's like, do you think that in hindsight, do you think you've had trauma there?

And I'm like, I'm like a crying mess. I'm like, I can't believe this. And it just, it gave me my home life and my relationship with my wife and my children has never been better as a result because I was like, I was almost trying to force my like my beliefs or my my way of doing things on the children versus like being amenable to what if nothing else what my wife suggests my wife grew up in the most healthy environment

loving family my wife is like the baby whisperer she She's like, she's what I am to running. She's that times 10 to being a parent. She's just awesome at it. That's all she ever wanted to be. She's good at it. So what I realized in this is like, she knows some of this stuff. I don't know. It, it gave me pause and, and showed me how to like, take a deep breath breath and like not be afraid to let, to give up some of the control. And it more than anything taught me patience with the kids. So like, as an example, I'd be recording the podcast. They'd be in the theater underneath my office,

jumping around, playing music. And I'd go down there. Typically I'd be like, guys, hold on. Guys, what are you doing? How many times I got to gotta tell you I'm recording it's only an hour a week cut that crap instead I go guys hey I'm sorry hey I'm recording man if you guys could just keep it down there like dad so sorry we're gonna go outside and I was like oh my god that was magic what a difference it seems like such a small thing but that's actually a big deal but to get to that point I had to do some work.

You couldn't just tell me like, try this. I had to understand the kind of ramifications behind it. And like, why would I try that? And when you understand, she's like, would you want to ever make your children feel the way you felt? And I was like, again, a mess. I was like, I would rather be dead. I would never want my children to feel like that. And it's not that I'm not firm with them. I was just too firm. So finding that balance of like firm and like tenderness was critical. And, and, and honestly,

part of the reason where I committed to doing this was because of the conversation we had and just reflecting on like just going out and flogging myself and trying to be the best at running doesn't take away the work that has to be done behind the scenes and and and the impact that I'm having on my own children and you know we I think that it's easy to forget that children especially young children like what my children were and are, is their first memory. You think about your first memory, your first experience with a roller coaster, with an airplane.

It's etched in your mind forever. Whereas you and I could go on 20 flights a year and not remember any of them, but you remember the first one. And all of their experiences are first-time experiences. And it's my job to make sure that they're as positive as possible. Not like, I remember the time I went to the beach with my dad and I, he, I ordered the wrong sandwich and then he got mad and threw in the trash. Right. Which is, which is something you might've done in an offhanded way and forgot about and had no sense that that's getting deeply embedded in that kid's brain. And 30 years later, they're

going to be thinking about that. Cause my parents did that shit to brain. And 30 years later, they're going to be thinking about that. Because my parents did that shit to me. And when I was there at that center doing this deep dive into my own mental health, I was like, oh my God, that's exactly what happened to me. And I was like, oh my God, how do I undo what I've already done wrong? And she's like, no, no, you don't have to worry about that. Just go home and be the best version of yourself. And they'll understand that people make mistakes.

So as an example, my youngest youngest son he's in jujitsu last week he goes on fridays it's really competitive like competition jujitsu and the kids from out of town who's like 11 he's 7 and the kids like three belts higher than when he's training for a tournament he's so much more experienced it's like a almost like a teenager rolling with them most kids that are that much better even in boxing and wrestling they know when they're outmatched and they take it easy on the little kid this kid beat the shit out of my son for 30 minutes it was so hard to watch and I was getting pissed at the coach because I'm like look you're gonna get him demoralized at some

point but Cameron kept fighting kept fighting and at some point he was kind of giving a half-assed effort and I couldn't help myself I'm, like cameron. Come on, and he lost it. He started crying and it was I was mortified. I was I was crushed I was like, dude, i'm so sorry And I was like man, I get I get emotional thinking about it now Because I had to like Own that and take responsibility and it's in Fucking monday. He's like dad let's go

jujitsu we got to get ready and i was hoping that i didn't want to be like hey we got jujitsu and then the coaches were like cameron good for you because they will i mean he got the shit kicked out of him and he kept fighting and i just was like i wasn't i think i was as much yelling at the coach as i was at him like come on man what are we doing the kid's getting the shit kicked out of me and he's not trying anymore like this isn't counterproductive and I think we all learned the lesson there but I was like I'm never ever offering coaching again at any kid's sport I'll walk outside I don't want to be that parent living vicariously through my kids which is why I have my own things going on I don't want to be that guy but valuable lesson and painful, but necessary.

Well, first of all, massive credit to you for even signing up to go into that kind of trauma work. I think it's super important. It's clear as day to me when I look at your backstory and the things that you lived through that your past is littered with traumatic experiences that until you start to excavate, you don't understand the extent to which they're controlling your life unconsciously.

And as somebody who grew up in a chaotic situation, it's no surprise that you're gonna wanna be a control freak, control the variables and be in control of all the kind of aspects of your life from business to running, et cetera. And with that comes a sense that this is how you survive. Like this is how you live. Like it's well-intentioned.

It's a defense mechanism. It's a survival tactic, right? And there's no reason to believe because you're successful on the outside that this is problematic until you start to look into it and you realize the extent to which you're living your life unconsciously, repeating patterns that you inherited

or that you developed as a means to survive a very difficult situation. And then comes the revelation of letting go of those and trying something different. Now you can have the most capacious growth mindset of all time, but undoing that hardware and rewiring is one of the most difficult things you're ever going to do because I'm sure, and I'm interested in your thoughts on this, what comes up up is Hey, if I let go this this is how I do everything in the world if I let go of that All the good things in my life go away. I don't know how to function in the world anymore. Yep That's one of the scary. I mean you could talk about

Being scared to go out for seven days in the desert, but that's life-threatening 100 the the work that I had to do at Onsite was 10 times scarier than going to the desert. When I was driving to that place, I was like driving to like a life sentence. I was like driving to jail. Again, I sound like a big- What was the instigating,

did something happen? Like what convinced you that you should go do that? Honestly, I think one of the big turning points was like listening to this interview back and listening to myself, like realizing how dependent I was on achievements and accomplishments and running and like all the extracurricular stuff to validate myself and thinking about that. And my relationship with my wife was terrible. I was just like a monster. I was trying to control everything, trying to like just do too many things. And honestly, I think my relationship was in such turmoil with my wife that I was like desperate for help to fix it. Cause I knew that I'm the problem. And, um, my friend who I bought my house

from in Tennessee, he had gone there and it was expensive. I, maybe it was like 10 grand for like four days, which to me is expensive. And, and, but at the same time, I'm like, not to explain how much is your life worth. And, uh, I called him up one day. I was looking at it, looking at it. I knew I needed to do shit. I knew I needed therapy, but to me going once a week, the therapy will be like putting your finger in a dam. That's about to crack in the dam. And the dam's about to break like once a week, ain't going to help me. I need like that heavy artillery. Like when I talked to you about the ultra, I was like, hey, when's the soonest I can get into on-site? And they were like, then. And next thing you know, I was like, oh, my God, what have I done?

Just like with the Gobi Desert. I was like, dude, it was crazy. I drive up there. And I didn't know any, like the Gobi Desert, I didn't know what I didn't know. And with the on-site, I didn't even care to research it. I was just like, I'm just going. Get there. Didn't know if I could keep my phone or not. Didn't know. And with the onsite, I didn't even care to research it. I was just like, I'm just going. Get there. Didn't know if I could keep my phone or not.

Didn't know anything. They were like, phone, phone's gone. I hadn't put on like email alerts. Like, hey, I'm off the grid for four or five days, whatever it was. I think it was five days. And then they're like, okay, here's your cabin. You're in that cabin over there.

I'm like, do I have my own room? Because I requested my own room. And they're like, no, you have roommates. I'm like, roommates? I'm like, oh my God, what the? I get in there. I'm a, do I have my own room? Because I requested my own room. And they're like, no, you have roommates. I'm like, roommates? I'm like, oh my God, what the? I get in there. I'm a grown ass man. There's three beds.

I had the calendar up. It's taped up on my wall with all the sessions. And I'd X them off like we were in jail. I'm like, dude, one more session. We're almost out of here. I go, guys, we're halfway done. Let's go celebrate. I'll buy Cokes for everyone.

But there wasn't even soda there. Everything was controlled. Um, but yeah, it was just a lot of hard work. And, uh, like I said, I didn't know anything and man, like I said, I, I sound like a big baby. I spent more time crying and then just driving home and like apologizing to my wife. And one of the things that I realized when I was there is that the woman pointed out to me, she's like, you know, you've like given your wife every reason in the world

to like ditch you. Like you've almost dared her to leave you almost because you're afraid of doing this work, it seems like. And you have to recognize how strong she is to put up with the bullshit that she's put up with and stick with it because she's so desperate to hold her own family together and that was like that's heavy fucking heavy and i was like

i couldn't apologize enough and it was like game changer for us and listen there's obviously there's bumps in the road there's there's there's there's hiccups in every relationship we have you know arguments about petty bullshit now, but it's in perspective now, because usually I'm always the bad guy. So now when she's out of line, I can be like, man, you're really being a jerk to me. And she's like, you're right. You're right. I'm sorry. But it's given us, um, I don't know. It's given us a breath of fresh air with regards to our, um, our personal relationship with each other and the way we deal with the children, it's earth shattering from my perspective. Yeah, it's huge from a parenting perspective.

This is something I talked about with Peter Atiyah when he was here as well, because I did a similar type experience in December and it was revelatory. And you realize the extent to which, despite your best efforts to not parent in the unhealthy ways in which you were parented, when you're under stress or duress,

you will default to doing those very things that you promised you would never do, right? And then you have the shame and the guilt. And when you go through this process and you wrestle with those demons and you really unearth all that fucking shit and you work through it, you understand that you have the power

and the ability and the capacity to arrest that pattern that's probably been going on for generation after generation after generation. And you have the opportunity to tell a new story and to pass on to your kids through the way that you parent and mentor them a new way of being so that that pattern,

which your whole life you've just thought, this is who I am because of who I came from, stops here. And that's the greatest gift that you can give your kids. And I don't care who you are, how successful you are, what kind of amazing healthy family you came from. We all have shit, man. We all have stuff that happened to us and that gets imprinted in our brains and shows up in behaviors that we wish we could stop perpetuating and yet find ourselves powerless to do so unless we really hit pause and go deep like you did. And I think it's massive that you

made that investment, not just in yourself, but really in your family and in future generations yet to be born. Yeah. Because look, at the end of the day, I would die for my kids. And so if I was willing to die for these guys, the least I can do is put my own ego aside and be the person that I know I can and need to be. And to your point, the guilt and the shame, the cycle of guilt and shame is like so powerful that I hadn't thought about it in those terms until I had done the work at Onsite. And I was like, holy shit, I'm riddled with guilt and shame, not just at the way I might behave day to day, but like carrying that addiction journey with me and like the, the, the, the,

the pain that that caused me longterm. It's like prior to that happening, I was like really happy, positive dude. I was like a good kid. The principal at high school liked me, all the teachers. And I mean, they still would, but I didn't like, I liked myself. And then going through that, I was like, what a fucking loser you are. How could you possibly do this? Like you're the, you're as bad as anyone else. You're junkie. And getting over that has been, has not been easy. Like getting off the drugs, the physical, the physical act of abusing drugs is one thing, but getting over that, the damage that I did to my own ego and to my own personality is, has been very difficult. Cause in like, it's kind of like what I said when, when I was in Chicago and I was like, oh, these people know you, there's a part of me still that's like, man, these people really like

me. I don't even fucking like myself some of the time, you know? And that's the part that I'm so grateful for. I'm like, man, I, it, it gives me pause. It makes me think like, man, you have to show yourself some compassion at times. And that's one of the things that I've struggled with the most is showing myself grace towards myself. I'm just so hard on myself internally. Peter Atiyah described it perfectly. If I fucking was late for something, I'd be like, you fucking idiot. How could you be late for this? Versus like, hey man, roll with it. It's just shit happens. Because if that happened to, if the things that happened to me happened to someone else, I'd be like, dude, chill, man. Everyone makes a mistake. Don't even worry about it. I'd be the best cheerleader.

Yeah. You would never treat another person the way that you treat yourself. Bingo. Never. So you have this outward facing self-belief and confidence, but inward, a lot of that is being funneled through this self-deprecating, loathsome perspective of who you are. And then of course, that gets channeled into your running, right?

What is the relationship between your running and all of those wounds? Like if you feel like you're a piece of shit, how much of the suffering and the training and the racing is really about punishing yourself because you feel like you don't deserve good things or the only way that you can possibly contend with the guilt and the shame is to just create physical pain for yourself as almost like a hair shirt or like being just being fucking whipped by the priest

or something like that, right? And then you can feel okay because you've done your penance. And I think the question that I asked you in the first podcast that I guess on some level, kind of led to you going to this place. I'm not taking credit for that, but- No, no, it absolutely did. It got me thinking of something.

It began to get you asking questions. The question, as I recall, that I asked you was, who's Ken Rideout without running? If you woke up tomorrow and running's off the table, you couldn't do it anymore. You couldn't compete. You couldn't push yourself physically. Who's Ken Rideout? And that led to an interesting discussion. But now I'm curious about how you would answer that now, having had the experience that you just had.

It's funny. The first thing that comes to my mind is who's Ken Rideout? I would say like, I'm a dog. If it's not it's maybe it's nothing to do with physical maybe I'll start some kind of business that I'm incredibly passionate about I just haven't found that opportunity yet but I would channel all the same energy into something to be you know to show myself that I can like overachieve and like grind at something right but what's beneath that what's what's what's motivating that? What's motivating that insane engine that you have to be the best or you have to overachieve? Is it insecurity? Is it fear? Is it a sense that if you don't do that, that you're a piece of shit or you're worthless? So there's very laudable

aspects of that trait, but there's also these darker kind of pieces here, right? That are unhealthy and you'll be successful. Everyone will tell you, you know, you did a great job, but then you go home and it's a shit show, right? Because the unhealthy pieces are the ones that are kind of dictating your behavior in a way that you wish weren't happening. Yeah.

I don't mean to be like project. No, no, no. that's the case for you. That's an excellent question. And I think one that everyone can benefit from, if nothing else, the thought-provoking nature is that that's a good point. Like one of my biggest fears in the world, and I've told my wife this from the day we met,

I'm like, I'm so afraid of being mediocre at anything. Why? I don't know. Like obviously some of it is insecurity and self-consciousness. so afraid of being mediocre at anything. Why? I don't know. Like, it's obviously, it's some of it is insecurity and self-consciousness, but I just- That's the great discomfort, right? Like you want to put yourself in an uncomfortable situation for you, go into something and say,

I'm just going to be okay at this. I just want to finish. Yeah, I'm going to be- I'm just here to participate. And hold yourself back. Yeah. Just to like check your ego. Then I'd be like-

That's harder. Then I'd be like the clown in this group. I'd be like, come on guys, let's have fun. If I'm not trying to win, I'm like trying to make it as enjoyable as possible. I don't know. It's like, maybe it's like the addict in me is like constantly needs that dopamine release.

Either it's from trying to overachieve or from trying to have fun. I don't know, but that's definitely like something that I've spent a lot of time thinking about. And, you know, I hate feeling like I have to perform for the attention or affection of others, but there's certainly an element of that. And I almost wonder like if other people

that have had success at anything, and again not to try to hold myself up on a pedestal like some professional athletes but I wonder if a guy like Cam Wurf feels that or Des feels that thing of like you know what what's driving me to do this what like what what what would happen if I couldn't do this anymore I wonder how other people would answer that because I'm not sure but I know that the thought of just like being mediocre at anything is like scary to me I don't want to go through my whole life and be like yeah there's Ken Radha yeah he was there who else was there oh this guy was there no we didn't really hear anything from but he was there I'm like what the hell man I you

know but but maybe when I was running Mongoliaolia, I see the people, I was talking to one of the guys, the Swiss guy as we're running. And I said, man, these guys are living out here on these fields, herders. We're in no man's land. And I said, dude, I bet you that those guys are happier than us. They must love this. Otherwise they'd go do something else. Maybe they'd move to Ulaanbaatar, the city, open a hotel or something, but they're out there and they just seemed completely happy. So I often wonder like, who's winning the guy who's just living content life in like, you know, farming coffee beans in Hawaii or the guy who's making $20 million working in finance in New York. I can guarantee it's not the guy in New York,

that fucking job. I'd rather be dead. Like no amount of money is worth that kind of like anxiety and stress and keeping up with the Joneses and like worrying about what suit you're wearing and watch you're wearing. It's just, that's my motivation in life to try to do something different. So I never have to go back to that. Yeah. But you got your foot in the business world in more than a small way, right? Like what is the relationship between all of these mindset tools and your competitiveness? How do these things play off of each other? Like what have you learned from your marathoning, your experience doing this ultra, your success as an athlete that spills over to business and vice versa? Yeah, no, good question. When I was, um, prior to getting into endurance sports, when I was just a

salesman and, um, on a trading desk, you know, it was just constantly trying to be nice to guys that I didn't like having them be like completely disrespectful to me all the time. And any sales guys and financial sales guys listening to this will relate. It's just a terrible, terrible existence. And you know, you have a few good relationships and you make a lot of money, but like your life or your, your financial security lives and dies with those relationships and it's stressful. But now when I've, when I've done some things that like have garnered attention and I've, I don't think it's just winning. I think it's also the way I've carried myself and the sincere humility that with which I

feel after these events, I think it's been, um, it's almost been attractive to people in the space so that people who are into running. So now I've been, you know, for the last five years, roughly I've worked as a placement agent. So I'll help brands like, um, Roka, for instance, I didn't work with them or Roan, the apparel company. Like, again, I didn't work with them, but those are the kinds of brands I might work with them to help them raise like a series A or series B. And I have institutional investor relationships. And coincidentally, the best relationships I have with some of these guys are the people that are into running. And, um, I have some excellent relationships with people that I genuinely like really enjoy being around. Like the nice thing about doing this freelance

work is with someone that I don't like, unlike my previous life, I don't have to deal with them moving on. There's too many, like there's too many other opportunities to focus on negativity. Moving on, there's too many other opportunities to focus on negativity. And as a result, I've kind of surrounded myself with like-minded people that are all into the same thing. And I've been very lucky that I worked on a few deals that worked early on. One of them was a company called PowerDot that was acquired by Therabody. I invested in that early in a convertible note, and I put a bunch of buddies into it. I invested in that early in a convertible note and I put a bunch of buddies into it. And with a convertible note, if the company gets acquired before the note converts to equity, you get paid a multiple of the money.

And within six months of the investment, it got acquired. So as a result, we all got a multiple on our money and all the guys involved were like, what's next? So now I only work on deals that I invest in. And when I do invest and I bring it to like this my little network of High net worth individuals family offices or even some institutions there, you know, they're like are you investing cool? Okay, we're at least in but we'll decide the amount send us all the materials we'll do the diligence and it's like I've been super lucky that i've created this I say to my wife all the time

I'm, like can you believe that i've been able to do this? I don't have a job. I don't work. This is unbelievable because I like doing this. It's completely different than the trading desk environment and that like kind of hardcore banking where it's more like this is very much based on relationships. And it's been wonderful. Like brands reach out. If I think that it's something I would invest in and I can do, usually it gets done. I've had very few failures in that space. And, um, luckily because I've picked them strategically and, uh, but yeah, so, so, so the, the running has complimented it really well because most of the brands that I would work with are in kind of like human performance or, um, health and wellness space. Like no one's coming for me. No one's asking me to help them raise

a software as a service business. I just, it's not my wheelhouse. I don't do tech. I'm just, that's way above my intellectual pay grade. When I look at you, I see a people guy. You're a relationships guy to your point. And you're somebody who innately understands people. I think the word like networking or networker

is a terrible pejorative, but like I think that you, like you're on the phone, you're talking to people all the time, you know what people want, you know what people need, you make sure that people's needs are met. You're one of those guys who's got a guy for everything. If I needed something, like I need this, I'll call Ken. He's like, I got a guy.

Need a guy, need some money, tell me what you need. You got the guy, right? Of course. How do you become the guy who's always got a guy? That's a good question. And I've talked about this the last I was on here about networking. If you think you're networking, strike one. No, this isn't like something that you consciously do. It's the way you live your life. And please, for the love of Jesus, last time I was on here, I said, I hate LinkedIn. I don't understand why people send LinkedIn to strangers without even an explanation. Like, Hey, here's why I want to connect with you. I go through this whole rant. The last time I get home, I am not shitting you. I had like two or 300 LinkedIn requests. Please, if you don't tell me why you want to connect, why would I want to have an anonymous connection? Did you reply to every one of them telling them why you weren't going

to accept them? No, I'm sorry. If you don't get a yes from me immediately, I see them all. If I hit ignore, it's because there's no explanation. And what good is it to say I'm connected to Ken if we don't know each other? And if someone asked me, do you know Steve Smith? No, I don't know that guy. Well, you're connected to him on LinkedIn. How do you slip through the cracks? Goodbye. But yeah, but to your point, it's like, I used to, I said to Rob more, maybe about a year or two ago, I said, you know, I think that one of my biggest, one of my best, most marketable skills is being interesting. He said, no, I disagree. I think that you're not as interesting as you are interested.

You are really interested in people. Like when, you know, he's like, I've been with you a million times where someone's like talks to us and you ask them a million questions about what they're doing, but it's not conscious. But I am interested.

Like I'm interested in what people have to say and what they have to do. But it's one extreme or the other. Like Rob was telling me when we were running this morning, he was like, yes, so-and-so was asking like, so what's the deal with Ken? And he said, that's a transparent guy. Like what you see is what you get.

And if he doesn't like you, unfortunately he doesn't do a good job of hiding it. And I think that that's the truth is like, people either love me or hate me. And I'm aware of that. I don't want people to hate me. But at the same time, if you hate me, it's probably because I hate you.

I don't hide that. And I don't like something about someone. And I have a hard time like hiding contempt. And that's a fault of my own because I don't want to hurt anyone's feelings. I want to be kind to everyone. I really do. But there's some people that you're just not going to like.

And I know that when you have a big personality, which I can at times, that it sometimes is off-putting to others. I certainly don't want people to dislike me, but I understand that I'm not for everyone. think kind of see through that and recognize that the people who are my friends, I'll help them do anything. If I have a hundred dollars and you need 90, like, cool, we'll figure out a way to get the 90 back, but here it is. And that's, I hope and think that most of my friends would agree with that assessment, that that's how I feel towards them. The people that are in my life, I, I, like I said earlier, I'm a product of the people I'm around. I'm so grateful for the friendships I've had that I have right now. Like when I was working in finance, I was like an empty vessel, which is why I turned to drugs. I, I, I couldn't fill this void of emptiness that I had and the people that I was working with, not all of them, there was some beautiful people, but there

were a lot of complete assholes. And I just, I wasn't good in, in that environment. It was like, I was like a tree that didn't like a palm tree trying to grow in fucking Staten Island. It sucked. It was miserable. I didn't really fit in with everyone there. I just feel better or worse. Um, and now, like I said, if someone's doesn't jive with me or doesn't fit with my beliefs, I don't have to deal with them. And I say to my wife all the time, I've never been in a position in my life ever where I've had less conflict with people. I never have conflict with people ever.

Like on a, on a working basis, you know, you might have words with someone off the cuff and subway or something. Um, which my wife would be like, why do you have words with someone in the subway? I'm like, ah, sometimes I just can't let shit go when I see wrongs. I got to speak up.

Yeah. Like you chiming in and comment threads on Instagram too. I try not to unless someone's negative. I hope that's improved since the last time we talked. Yeah. I very rarely respond to negative comments anymore. Yeah. When I look at your life, I see, I see someone who's living a pretty aspirational life. Like you get to do what you want. You get to make money in the way that you want. You get to, you know, pursue your athletic adventures and, you know, distinguish yourself in that world. You get to be a parent to these kids that you love. So I would imagine people

want to know or come up to you and ask like, how do I craft or cultivate this type of life? Like, do I follow my passion? Do I do the right thing, et cetera? And when I reflect on my own life, I can't help but think about the role that pain has played in getting me to change or getting me to kind of wake up to, you know, ways that aren't serving me and kind of compelling me because I was so fucking backed into a corner to finally pay attention and start to kind of make some shifts or whatever that have led me to this place.

So how do you think about the role that suffering and pain has played in helping you get to where you're at? And is it possible to arrive at a place like that without having to weather all the suffering? Yeah. Well, for starters, I'd say you're talking to someone who was like suicidal for several years, struggling with addiction, waking up every day, getting high 24 seven, first thing in the morning, as soon as I get out of bed, taking opioids, because I couldn't get I couldn't take a shower until I was like, got some relief from the pain and like the physical withdrawals. And when you are in that level of despair, and keep in mind, I was able to function and continue to like live a productive on the surface life. But I was like, destroying myself like emotionally. And to come out of that thing, like, I was thinking about this on the surface life but I was like destroying myself like emotionally and to come

out of that thing like I was thinking about this on the flight out here I was like man I'm so grateful that I don't have to depend on drugs that I'm sober it's just like it's a dream come true and I think that that level of gratitude has served me but the other thing I'd say is when I so I was working in finance just getting by I. I mean, we were like, I married my wife, best decision I ever made. We had beautiful children. That part is all like within everyone's grasp. Finding the right partner is like so critical. I can't stress it enough. If I, there are things that my wife and I disagree about, but the one thing that I knew for sure was that this is the person I want to be the mother of my children.

And maybe subconsciously in a Freudian way, I wanted her to be my own mother. But we don't have that kind of relationship. That creates problems. I often think of that where she is like the mom of our house. She cares for all of us. But we have very distinct roles. I deal with all the finances and all the like tip we have the most traditional like old school relationship like dad does the dad

stuff mom does the mom stuff um and it works for us it doesn't necessarily mean it has to work for everyone but i would say that when so when i've when i got sober we have four kids i'm living in new york i'm commuting from westchester and i I was like, this is a losing proposition, man. I can't keep living like this. I'm driving an hour in the morning, two hours sometimes at night to get home. I'm making just enough money to be comfortable, but I'm not rich. I don't, I don't have anything extravagant. We had a nice house, but not like not a frigging house that you'd pull up and be like, holy shit, what's this guy do? It was like a house. And, um, I was just like, I don't want to do this anymore. But now I have huge responsibilities. We sold our house, moved to the Palisades,

most expensive place on earth, probably. I mean, it was so crazy expensive. We rented a house and I don't want to make it about money, but just to give context for people, like I was far from rich and we rented the only house we could find that could accommodate us $12,000 a month I was like dude this I'm on a I have a runway now and that runway is short and I got to figure this out and I'm working at a tech startup that I didn't think would succeed but I had blind faith that I would figure this shit out and I don't know what when I say I didn't sleep for six months like dude I didn't sleep I was like constantly panicking like having panic attacks of like but I'm gonna figure it out I don't know how and long story short I convinced my friend Jack McDowell who ran the Palisades group an asset management firm in LA they didn't really have marketing he wasn't really growing the

business and I convinced him to hire me to run business development. He had like $2 billion in assets under management, but it was all like separately managed accounts. So it wasn't like a $2 billion hedge fund with two and 20 fees. And he was like, you don't really have experience. And I basically said, I'll do it for free. I'll work for free. No health insurance, no nothing.

You talk about putting your your freaking balls on the line and he let me do it and in a few weeks it was obvious it worked two years later he had five billion in assets and we had three different discretionary funds like real head like hedge fund style funds that paid real fees and it was like like the goby race i was like i did this holy shit i can't believe I did this. But it was literally like, I'm just going to figure it out. And for whatever reason, like the stars just aligned and the universe just was like, this guy believes in himself. We're going to reward him.

I always have a hard time accepting the fact that I did something. I always think like, oh, I got so lucky there. It lined up perfectly and I was in the right place at the right time versus I made that happen. But I also think that that humility and that not getting overconfident prevents you from getting out over your skis and doing something stupid, which you could argue that that might've been a stupid decision had I gone bankrupt and like embarrassed my whole family. But instead we've, I righted the ship. We started to like have, you know, create a little bit of comfort for ourselves, at least that I wasn't like I could sleep. And, um, you know, when COVID kicked in,

the kids got sent home from school and it was just too much for little kids on iPads. And, um, my wife went to Vanderbilt and she's like, let's move to Nashville now that you're working from home. Because my boss at the time, my partner, Jack, was like, you can do this for yourself and work for yourself. And I'll keep you on as a consultant and give you a year of runway. And I was like, dude, I don't think I can do this. Who's going to hire me to raise money for them? And he was like, dude, this guy was like, this guy, Jack McDowell, was like my fucking guardian angel. He believed in me more than I ever believed in myself.

He's one of my best friends. I love this guy. He was like, you can do this. And I was like, dude, I can't. He's like, I'm going to pay you X a month for the next year. And I was like, that's more than enough. And he's, but I had raised like a discretionary funds. He's like, instead of me paying you a bonus and a salary, I'm going to give you this monthly

retainer, go do your thing. And when we raise the next fund, you come and raise it for us as a consultant. And I did. And the first mandate I raised money for was David Sinclair's life bioscience in Boston. And I'm working from home. COVID started. I've always said to my wife, imagine if we could make like New York, LA finance money, but live in like Austin or Nashville. And she was like, let's do it. So I couldn't bring, I love living here. I was driving here thinking I fucking love Malibu, running, biking, but no one else had that connection in my family. They, they were like, they liked it here, but they weren't like, I'm in heaven. So she was like, let's go to Nashville.

I said, I can't bring myself to do it you go find a house that you like if you find it buy it and I'll move there so I saw the house the first time when we pulled up and moved in yeah you know I think you told me that last time that's unbelievable that's an unbelievable story um but the point I wanted to make is when you're and it sounds cliche again I know but if you're waiting for everything to line up like as soon as everything's lined up I'm gonna start my business or I'm gonna move to um puerto rico and take advantage of the tax shelter but if you're waiting for the time to be right fucking stop wasting your time right it's never i'll have i'll have kids when everything is sort of set yeah right like as soon as i have five doesn't

work that way i'm doing this nah do it now that that day never comes never Never. And, you know, to the people who would look and say, like, I want that. I wish that there was a formula or an easy answer where I could say, do this, this, this. Because people ask me all the time. I'm like, brother, I don't have the answer for you. But all I can tell you is you have to believe in yourself to the point where you're, like, willing to die to win. I will win this race or I will die trying. It's funny. After the second stage of that Gobi race, I haven't shared race or I will die trying. It's funny after the second stage of that Golby

race, I haven't shared this with anyone, the video, but I sat down and made a video of myself where I'm like, my elbow's bleeding. And I like, just cause I wanted to remember how I felt. And I'm basically talking to the camera and I'm like, I'm fucking destroyed. And I like literally start getting emotional. I'm like, I don't know how the fuck I'm going to keep doing this. I can't bear the thought of running 24 miles. I haven't, I am destroyed. I'm a mess. I'm bleeding. I'm like, I don't know how the fuck I'm going to keep doing this. I can't bear the thought of running 24 miles. I am destroyed. I'm a mess. I'm bleeding. I'm like, I don't know what I'm doing here.

I don't know what I'm going to do. And like, I start to get choked up. And I'm like, I just wanted to make it, like I said, for myself and to show my wife like what I was experiencing in the moment without being dramatic. And it was like, I think it's pretty moving. Yeah, that's wild.

You know, I think belief in yourself, yes, but also this reflex to action, right? This idea of execution, not waiting until everything's lined up before you take that action or not sitting on your ass until you have the whole roadmap of how you're going to get from point A to point Z. Like anybody who's successful has to begin and you start to just move forward. And it's like stuff shows up right in your like immediate, you know, view

only at the last minute when you need it to show up in order for you to take one more step. And that's how everything gets done and gets made. And you got to develop a capacity or a comfort level with that level of uncertainty. The biggest thing of all that is like, aside from believing in yourself and all that stuff, is like, you can't be afraid to fail. Like fear is the worst.

And I say it all the time. And like Teddy Alice talks about this and he learned this from custom auto and it's like, you know, it's a well-known expression, but the coward and the hero feel the same exact emotion when confronted with a situation. It's just, how do you act in response to the fear? The hero is like, okay, I see you. I know you're there. Here's how I'm going to handle this. The coward is like, ah, fuck this, run or ignore. So you can be afraid to fail. It's just what are the actions that you're taking in the face of that fear? You can be fearful.

You can't be afraid because you will fail. Like if you try to do epic shit, you're going to fail. I mean, the frigging road to success is littered with failures. Like anyone who's been super successful has had failures along the way. It's impossible to like do epic shit and not have failures.

I mean, the best athletes in the world, what's his name, Kipchoge, went to win the Boston Marathon. He got beat. It was the last one he had to win. If you told me Kipchoge was going to get beat at something, I'd be like, I got 10,000 that Kipchoge wins, even money. And he lost.

But that's, it's like the expression, what would you do if you knew you couldn't fail? That's the motivation to try these things like these other endurance races where I'm like, oh my God, I'm so scared. I'm afraid to even mention that I might do it, which is part of the reason why I mentioned them. Because now I'm like, I know people are going to be like, when are you doing that?

Right. That's the obvious question. You know, is it, is a pilot light lit now and you're going to go off and do all these ultras. And I think that there's something really cool and amazing and interesting for you to explore in that world. And I think it's such a beautiful community. It's very different from the marathoning community. Um I think you'll really enjoy, you know, everything that that has to offer. At the same time, it's like, are you running towards something or are you running away from something?

Yeah, I think I could probably make an argument for both. Although I would say, knowing what I know now, I'd say I'm running away from things less than I've ever been. I'm like aware of the challenges that I'm facing emotionally and spiritually. And, um, and just to put a name on it, like what are those challenges? I think a lot of it is insecurity and like just being aware of like how much of this is performative what am i doing for like the accolades and affection and attention of others versus like a sincere desire to like explore what i can and can't do and and i do think that again not to sound cliche i do think that

there's a huge element of that that i do just that's kind of my personality is like, what else can I do? Like, I've had, I like doing this. I like saying like, I don't know, uh, free diving. I don't have any interest in free diving, but how far could I free dive? Ooh, that seems real scary. What if you can't get a deep breath and you get stuck down there? Can you die? Hmm, man, that might be interesting to try. Scares the shit out of me. But like, those are the kinds of things where I'm like, might be interesting to try scares the shit out of me but like those are the kind of things where I'm like hmm what else can I try that would be scary and not because I don't want to fail but I do want to like a kind of explore those things in a healthy way but I also want to be sure that it's like I want to be very conscious of what is the motivation there. It's tough too, because it's not one or the other. You can have that, but also like, I'm restless at home. I don't know, something doesn't feel right. Like, oh, I'll sign up for

a race. I'll sign up for an adventure. And it's like, that's when you're running away. You're like, you're just like putting the blinders up because you don't want to deal with whatever is making you uncomfortable about sitting still in your own home. Yeah, that could be it. There was, I will say, I got a lot out of the element with the Gobi race of like the planning and like the strategic thought about food and supplements

and like, which supplements do I bring? I take a lot of supplements primarily from Momentous, but I was like, which of these supplements are so necessary that I'm willing to carry them for six days? What made the cut? Yeah, good question. I took a daily multivitamin and two fish oils daily from Momentous and I took athletic greens. I took Momentous recovery powder, which I was like, man, I don't know if I should carry

this recovery powder. I should just abandon this and eat the food and go straight food, the freeze dried stuff. But in the end, I was so glad I had the recovery stuff because I don't know about you, but after a huge race, like a marathon or an epic, like a long, hard effort, I don't have an appetite for like five hours sometimes. So to force the recovery powder down every day was like, thank God I brought this because it got calories in right away. And then I just forced myself to eat the calories throughout the day. That was the only part that was tolerable.

I was hungry a lot, but I was also like so deep in the pain cave that I was like, I can only tolerate so much food. So it made that calorie deficit like a little bit more palatable. The rest day sucked because I was just like, I can only tolerate so much food. So it made that calorie deficit like a little bit more palatable. You know, the rest day sucked because I was just like, I could have eaten like, you know, frigging half a cow. I was just like so hungry and so hungry for like fruits and vegetables

because I was like, dude, all I've been eating is this freeze dried crap. Like I just, we'd spawn something like with like with substance or some real vitamins and minerals and nutrients, not all this sodium and processed shit. Yeah. Do they do it differently at Marathon du Sable where they have these big camps set up at the end of the stage?

And I think, do they feed you dinner there or do you have to bring your own food? The difference in Marathon du Sable is they just provide a roof, like a shelter. you're sleeping on the sand from what i understand but there isn't some kind of big barbecue when you wait for you when you not only that they don't boil the water for you like and i'll give you guys some pictures and videos that shows like what the camp setup looked like there was like just some big like almost like barbecue grills with kettles on them where they would boil the water and then there was like just a pile of bottled water sitting in the desert so i was like

my wife was like well at least they gave you cold water i'm like cold water the water was like an inferno i was like one was boiling and one was hot but they would boil the water and you pour it into the freeze-dried food in marathon to sob i think you have to actually carry the little like um little stove thing that you could boil your own water but a lot of those meals you can pour the water doesn't have to be boiling until you're so hungry and like on queer street that you're like fucking cold water warm water it didn't matter um and i think that and i also think marathon to sob is like majority is over sand, like really loose sand. It just seems so much harder.

People are like, oh, you're going to do Marathon du Sable? I'm like, you couldn't pay me $100,000 to do that race. I've been there, done that. I don't want to sleep in the sand. The next one will have no sand involved. The funny thing is the guy who planned out the course, Spanish guy, he's like, listen, I got a great race in Namibia. It's the same exact thing as this but

we sleep in hotels and eat great meals every day i'm like oh now you got my attention um what is the supplement routine when you're at home um in the morning i'll take like most mornings i'll take tyrosine and most of this is like part of the huberman protocol i'll take tyrosine uh like an alpha gpc for focus if it's a work day i don't take it on the weekends and i'll take nmn um after workout i take the momentous um recovery shake scoop of athletic greens creatine um a multivitamin uh two fish oils zinc and vitamin d and some carnitine and then at night i'll take the sleep pack from Momentus that has like theanine, magnesium. Yeah. And apigenin. Yeah, exactly. The other one. Yeah.

I get crazy dreams when I take that. Dude, I'm a junkie. When I go to sleep and I have a crazy dreams, I'm like, this is like a dream. This is like a dream come true. Even a nightmare. I'm like this is like a dream this is like a dream come true even a nightmare i'm like i'm sober uh-huh when you're in that kind of dependence every time you wake up you're reminded of like you ain't going anywhere without those drugs did you you're going on vacation for a week do you have 55 percocets ready to go to get through the week now i've only got 40 okay so the last two days you're going to be in withdrawals and make it miserable for everyone that puts it into perspective yeah so when you have like think about those things like i'm overwhelmed with gratitude and just full of positive vibes you're 52 yeah 52 yeah so how are you thinking about the next couple years where do

you see yourself in three years five years how are you staying on top of your fitness and and all of that i i don't feel old like i don't treat myself like an old man sometimes i see like gray hair in my on my head especially on my beard and i'm like fuck i'm old yeah and it's it panics me i don't like it and uh i know dude it's i don't i don't part of me doesn't like having the beer because it's super white i feel like i'm 100 years old but my wife likes it. Yeah. I'm like, all right, I'll do it. Yeah, same.

But like, you know. I just can't do it. I'm way too insecure and vain. I feel like, oh my God, I look so old. But do you, do you feel like this? Sometimes you look in the mirror and you're like, wow, I look old. I don't feel any different than I ever have in my whole life.

Like I don't feel different than when I, I mean, I feel emotionally a lot more mature, but from a physical standpoint, I think it's maybe the soreness becomes so gradual that it just like the only thing that's massively noticeable is the eyesight. Like I can't see my phone without reading glasses at 45 and it just got a little bit worse every year, which is depressing, but I don't feel like, I don't feel like I'm deteriorating at all and I don't know if it's because I've just stayed active and stayed busy and just refused to give into that or if maybe I'm lucky like from a genetic standpoint that I've been able to adjust but I was talking

to T.O. the other day because I had my LP little a and Apo B levels tested and they were super high like panic level high and i'm like too this is causing me massive anxiety because i'm like oh my god i don't even think there's a way to lower these because it's all genetic i don't eat an unhealthy diet i very rarely if ever eat meat you know primarily fish and uh so to think that i have this it was like man the day i got that diagnosis my wife's like what's up i was like i was like in a bad place, it was like, man, the day I got that diagnosis, my wife's like, what's up? I was like, I was like in a bad place. And I was like, I'm going out to run.

It's scary. That's really scary. I literally was like, you know. How long ago was that? Two months. I said to my wife, like, I'm going to have a heart attack. I think I'm going to die now. Like, this is crazy.

How is this happening? I went out that day and ran like the hardest interval run ever. And she's like, what are you doing? doing I'm like I refuse to give into this like if if I'm gonna if this is gonna happen let's do it now I was just so depressed so now I've been like trying to cope with it and figure out like what am I gonna do and so I'm starting to like formulate a plan and figure out do I take a stat and what do I do it's I got I got a couple of people uh for you to talk to. Definitely.

Including Rob Moore. Yeah, yeah. Rob and Andrew have been massively helpful. Yeah, you don't wanna fuck around with that. And it's that thing where it doesn't matter how fast you run. Sometimes like in T.O.'s case, like who would have thought, right?

I think there are certain lifestyle things that you could tweak that could help that. And whether or not you need a statin, you need to explore that and figure that out quickly. But it's, yeah, that's when you're really kind of confronted with your own mortality and it goes back to control. Is this something you can control or not? Which is a scary thing.

Yeah, and it's not something that's easily controllable. And that's what's been hard to deal with. It's like, man, what am I gonna do? But I'm gonna formulate a plan and I'm definitely gonna take you up on talking to anyone who's willing to talk to me so yeah the cardiologist when he was talking he's like yeah we'll get you on a stat and i was like nah i'm not taking a stat and he's like why i'm like i just haven't heard good things about him i don't know why i was just emotional and i was like i'm take my chances so when he sent me the report he's like uh i told patient of risks patient responded i'll take my chances so when he sent me the report he's like uh told patient of risks patient responded

i'll take my chances oh that went in his notes yeah yeah well he's covering his ass oh of course of course yeah that's all right you might want to rethink that yeah no i definitely do it was just when i when i heard it i was like i'm not that that level like i'm not on stat and would be crazy but i think you're you're a you're a good case study for use it or lose it. Like you feel the way that you feel because you continually apply pressure, right? So you feel like you're 30 because you've been training in a certain way for a very long period of time and you've been able to kind of maintain, whereas most people drop off and they're rebuilding and they're rubber banding. And I'm in the middle of that type of experience

because of this lower back problem that I've had. Like when I was, you know, when I did, how old was I, 51 when I did Otillo? Yeah, I felt fucking great. And now I've had this back issue, which has forced me to be more sedentary and to not express myself physically in the way that I choose and like in order to just

feel like who I am. And now I'm finally on this path of healing and I'm seeing results. And now I can move, not like I'm not out killing it or anything like that, but I can kind of get out there and, you know, ride my bike and go to the pool for the first time in a long time, man. And I'm like, oh my God, this is what it feels like to be me. Like, I'm so grateful. Like you take this for granted and it gets taken away from you for a little bit. And they're just simple things. They're not like material things. They're just like, I need to do these things for my mental health, for my physical health. And just to like, feel like I'm myself and to be able to reconnect with that now and see a path forward. It's like, I feel so fucking good. And I feel I had forgotten what it feels like to.

What a lot of people don't realize, and they should, is that a rich man has a million problems and a sick man has one. I, after I came back from Chicago on Sunday morning, came home, hung out with the kids, had dinner Sunday night, didn't eat anything offensive. I don't even remember like something, vegetables, salad, same thing my kids ate. Sunday night, dude, I woke up, I had like a stomach bug or food poison, and I threw up for like 24 straight hours. It was so bad, I was like almost like begging to like, just God, please put me out of my misery. Take me out. I can't do this. My head was in a vice grip. I couldn't stop throwing up. And all I could think was like, I'd give up everything in my life to be healthy. I just, it was, I literally was like, am I going to die? Like, this is unbelievable. I can't move. I'm frozen on the bathroom floor. I can't stop

throwing up. And that was like such a reminder of like, dude, slow down. I think my body was just like, yeah, enough. Cut the bullshit. Go be desert, then go to Chicago, run a beer mile, flying around, almost like just ignoring common sense tactics of like, dude, you need to give your body a rest. So I took like three days off from running. It's the first time in like a long time that I've had multiple days in a row off. Wow.

When you think back on the habits and the routines that have contributed to your success beyond, we talked about the supplements, we talked about the 10 miles a day, what are some other things that you build into your daily regimen that you think have been important in moving the needle? Definitely number one, performance enhancer, sleep. I go out of my way to get proper sleep. That doesn't always happen, but like I don't really drink. I mean, I've never been a drinker. Like my recovery never involved like, oh my God, I can't have a drink. So like if I might have a drink every couple of weeks, but that's not my thing.

But I also think alcohol like wreaks havoc on your sleep and and just your whole recovery so i don't really do any of i don't partake in things that i used to partake in so i really emphasize sleeping and i also emphasize consistency like i keep it moving and and people it's funny i always get get so many like internet coaches that are like, hey, let me tell you how you should be doing this. I'm like, what the fuck about me tells you I need help? Like this works for me. Maybe I could be better if I had recovery built in, but it isn't all about performance. Some of it is just about mental health. Like I feel like I, emotionally, I need to just move my body in the morning it gets endorphins fire it is what it is

it's like my blessing and my curse but um so when people offer that advice I'm always like a little taken aback like I don't want to be rude to them but I'm like dude fucking worry about yourself um are you still working with Mario oh yeah yeah Mario's like he knows he knows the drill but you know if we're not in if we're not getting ready for a marathon, he doesn't send me daily training every day. He's just 10, 12 weeks out. He puts together very specific, and I follow it blindly. But I think that the consistency of training, the point I was going to make is,

so if I'm feeling destroyed and run down, so I'll just run really easy, and that works for me. I come back, feel refreshed. The next day I might feel stronger. If I don't, I continue just run really easy. And that works for me. I like come back, feel refreshed. The next day I might feel stronger. If I don't, I continue to run easy. I never, unless we're in that 12 week session and then I just follow the plan. And on the easy days, you have to run easy.

You physically can't do track workouts followed by hard long runs and not feel run down. So my easy days are just 10 miles super easy. And I know that that for a lot of people, they'd be like, that's crazy. You shouldn't do that. And maybe not, but that's the system that I use. And what about the gym routine? Yeah, so three or four nights a week, I lift weights.

I try to mix it up all the time. Like a shitload of pull-ups, push-ups, and sit-ups are the staples. And I'll do some bench pressing, kettlebells. I just try to keep it interesting all the time and do some squats, leg work, hamstring stuff because the hamstrings always get overused in running. It seems like that's a big piece in your resilience as you continue to age up

and your ability to kind of recover. And maybe even in the Gobi Desert, your ability to kind of get on all four even, you know, in the Gobi Desert, your ability to kind of get on all fours and do some of the, you know, real technical, like slogging through the mud and climbing over rocks kind of shit that played to your advantage over just the pure runner. Yeah, I definitely think my experience

as like kind of like a hybrid athlete or hybrid training helped me a lot, just with everything, like resilience in general, like the ability to go every day. Like I know what it's like to train every single day. So to do that and just dig deep for five or six days, six days, seven days, six stages was okay. It was longer, but if it's long for me, it's long for them. And that's what I kept telling myself is like, I'm suffering, but guess what? So are they. Yeah. The last thing I wanted to ask you, I put it out on the internet, like, hey, Ken's coming in. What should we ask him? And

got a bunch of questions. But there was one that I wanted to kind of end the conversation with, which is somebody said, what would Ken say to you know someone like myself who's just lazy I can't I just can't I can't get I can't get off the couch I can't

I can't get myself into that gear I would say exercise like your life depends on it because it does and if you're lazy like hey do your thing

that's you can't it's like what would you tell someone who's addicted to drugs and deep in the throes of addiction I'd say when he's ready to get healthy he'll get healthy but you can't, it's like, what would you tell someone who's addicted to drugs and deep in the throes of addiction? I'd say when he's ready to get healthy, he'll get healthy. But you can't tell someone to get healthy. You can't tell someone to get, get sober. You know this. I mean, that's why they have interventions and then they usually don't work. They don't work. Yeah. Because

you can't, you can't will somebody into willingness. Right. If I, honestly, if this person was talking to me and said, dude, I just don't feel it. I'd be like, brother, then don't do it for yourself. Do it for your wife. Do it for your children. Have some pride in yourself. Like, dig deep, man.

You don't have to run marathons, but like, you can't fucking walk for 30 minutes a day. You can't do 20 pushups. Those little things become contagious. It becomes like a snowball rolling down a mountain. It will gain momentum,

but it's just like straight physics. A body in motion will tend to stay in motion and a body at rest will tend to stay at rest unless acted upon by an outside force. You, you're in control of this. Like you only have one life. Why would you, this is the only thing you're in control of is your body.

Why would you squander and neglect the fucking greatest gift you could ever receive? Like, look at what people have been able to do with their bodies, even myself. Like, to go to the desert and put myself through this, like, I can't believe my body did this. And what else can it do? And it's awesome. And I would say, like, don't cut the, that that's get over that. That's a fucking poisonous mindset. Being lazy is like, yeah, I'm been lazy. I don't want to work. Well, you ain't gonna fucking eat because you ain't gonna get paid. It's also a story that gets reinforced every time you tell yourself that you're lazy.

That's right. Right? So do you have the capacity, the power to tell a different story? And that different story begins with taking one step. And to your point about an object in motion stays in motion, at least do enough for as long enough that you create momentum. Yep.

Because there is a physical law with momentum, but there's also like, it's like the force. There's like a spiritual power to it. Why is it when you're on a roll and you have momentum that it's just easier to keep going? And when you have that intervening event that throws you off your game and you get interrupted, it's so fucking hard to get back.

So when you have that momentum, you gotta protect that like your life depends on it. Yeah. Because So when you have that momentum, you got to protect that like your life depends on it. Because if you can continue that momentum, you're on a roll. Like you can literally just ride it out into a completely changed experience of your life. That's right. But it starts with the first step. So first of all, like I said earlier, it's the reality doesn't matter. What are telling yourself people might think i'm crazy i'm telling myself i'm definitely winning there's another part of me saying like you're gonna get killed but the voice do you override that do you consciously say okay i'm gonna tell myself i'm winning because i'm trying to mute out that other

voice are those things that were i can literally see them debating each other like i have the thought of like oh my god we're gonna fucking when the guy passed me for third i was like oh my god we're gonna think we're gonna be fucking happy to get in the top five and then i hear myself talking to myself like dude cut the fucking shit this is one day tomorrow we're gonna bounce back and we're gonna get these guys next time we'll sit on them we'll do this a little different we're gonna try this and it's this that voice only needs to be one percent louder 51 to 49 the alpha voice wins and like i said the reality doesn't matter only the only the story you're telling yourself matters and i'm i'm hyper aware of that when i'm in the moment and uh but it doesn't make it any

easier i have a normal person i have all the same concerns and like insecurities as everyone. I'm like, please God, don't let me embarrass myself. So many people are watching. I'm such a fucking big mouth. I told everyone I was doing this, but I think part of it is like creating this accountability exercise for myself because I've mentioned anything on here. For instance, I know everyone's going to ask me about it. And now I've backed myself into a corner and I'm like, all right, maybe I'll lose, but I can't be afraid to fail because I'm going to try.

And just not trying is not an option. Right. And stay off of LinkedIn. Please don't send me a LinkedIn request. LinkedIn messages. LinkedIn incoming. It's always a pleasure to talk to you, man. You're such an inspiration and I always get so much out of everything that you have to share. And I think

what you're out doing, leading the way as an example of what's possible for people in our age bracket is super cool. And I think when I think about masters athletes, like this is a new thing. Like when we were kids, there weren't people in their fifties out, you know, it's like- Exactly. So when you're breaking records,

you're like, yeah, that's great. But in, you know, my estimation in a hundred years from now, like whatever records are standing right now are gonna get eclipsed a hundredfold because we are not we but like i think people are exploring human capacity at older ages for the very first time no but i think it is we i think you're like a thought leader in this space like 100 like i'm so incredibly proud of you i freaking love you i love the people in community. I love the people that I'm friends with.

I'm, like I said before, I'm overwhelmed with gratitude. The fact that you want to hear what I have to say is like, it doesn't even seem real to me at times. I was such a fan for so long, and I just was just working tirelessly in the dark, in the cold, just doing my thing. And eventually it was like, holy shit, this is unique. What, everyone's not doing this?

Literally, I'm like, I'm shocked. This is, I, but shit, this is unique. Well, everyone's not doing this. Literally, I'm shocked. But I guess they're not. Yeah, well, every year there's fewer, right? Exactly, exactly. But this, I would say, endurance sports has given me the greatest gifts in my life. Like I said, it's helped me carve out a world in which I don't have to answer to anyone else.

I'm responsible for myself. Anytime I've been in a position to eat what I kill, essentially like live on your own. Like you don't make any money. You don't get paid. Like you don't do deals. You don't get paid. Cool. I like that. I know that I'm terrible at processes. Like when I worked at the Palisades and Jack is my friend, Jack, it would drive him crazy because he's a banker. He's like an MBA, CFA, Excel wizard. Like this is a frigging intellect math major type. I would take no notes. I had no systems. I just had relationships and he would tell me what needs to get done and I would get it done. And he would literally be like, I fucking hate the fact that you are able to do things the

way you do them because it doesn't make sense. It shouldn't work. You have no accountability. You have no records of anything. And I'm like, I know I'm terrible as an employee. That's why now I'm unemployable. But if you tell me what needs to get done at what date, I will live and die with that success. If I don't get done, don't pay me. But if I do get done, I'll take a zero.

Or if like, you're going to pay me $100 if I do it, pay me zero. If it doesn't get done, pay me 200 if I do it. Most people are like, you know what, I'll do that. And I'm like, cool. I don't know that I'm going to be able to do it, but I'm going to now the pressure's on, I'm going to do it. So that was part of the struggle of working in finance and then working at an asset management, like asset management, hedge fund, private equity, those guys are fucking intellectual. They are dialed. If you go into a proper private equity,

a real venture fund like an Elk Caterton, my buddy Michael Ferrello, shout out. Those guys, they are pros. And I am not the best fit in that environment because my processes suck. I know it. But if you tell me you need something done, I know and the people that know me know it's getting done.

And I just, the way I get it done sucks. It's like the Goldby Desert. I don't know how I'm gonna do it, but I'm getting over that finish line first. Right. So to wrap up, endurance sports as teacher, as a spiritual guide, self-reliance, integrity, being true to your word,

developing the capacity for resilience, the reflex towards action, fear of failure versus, how did you distinguish it? Fear of failure versus- Being afraid. Being afraid, right? How do we distinguish between those two things? You can be fearful, but you can't be afraid. Yeah.

So much good stuff, man. Well, I will just say that I'm so grateful. I'm so happy that for the opportunity to be here. And yeah, I hope that people get something out of this and if i can be of service to anyone i'm very easy to find and very easy to reach even for the haters um especially on linkedin on strava on strava sometimes someone would be like after the bear miles someone wrote a comment tagged their friend and said you know joe blow you gotta take this guy down that kind of comment i can't ignore i'm like motherfucker you know where to find me. I'm the easiest person in the

world to find me. Fine. Anyone can get it. I'm not hiding from anyone. And my wife's like, why would you even respond? I'm like, I don't know. I feel like they poked me and now I've got to respond. Yeah. You might want to work on that. You got to bring your ApoB down. That might be one of the ways to do it. The one thing I will say in closing is my friend Jelly Roll taught me an awesome lesson. And if you don't know who Jelly Roll is, he's the fucking nicest guy in the world. Country music star, former rapper, former convict. Just incredible inspiration. He said to me one time, I was telling him someone left a shitty comment on my Instagram.

And he's like, Ken, your Instagram that you're referring to we're looking at it together he's like there's like 300 positive comments here and one asshole said something shitty to you he's like do you know how disrespectful and insulting it is to the people that left you nice comments that you're going to only respond to the fucking asshole and I was like it like hit me like a ton of bricks I'm like you're right why wouldn't I take time to be like, write a personal thank you to everyone who took the time to say something nice to me. And it was a incredibly valuable lesson of just like,

I still struggle with it, but it doesn't, but it helped put things into perspective because I was like, yeah, man. And I also would say, imagine if I was saying to you, Rich, you got to see what I did on. I went on slow twitch or let's run. Then I trolled the shit out of some pro athlete. I talked so much shit about him.

I accused him of horrible things, unfounded. And I said all nasty shit about him. You'd be like, why? Just because I think that he's an asshole. Why is that? I don't know. I don't even know the guy. You'd be like, are you a fucking loser?

What productive person has time to be disrespectful and negative towards another man who's out there doing shit in the man in the arena like worry about yourself so i've tried to do a better job of tuning out the like negativity although there's not a lot of it but there is some and i'm always like taking it back because i'm like why would someone dislike me i've never done anything bad to anyone anyway that's That's great advice. It is amazing when you think of it in that context, because these people who took time out to say something nice, you're ignoring them and you're giving all your attention to somebody who just said something nasty and they're getting, that person is getting exactly what they want, which is your attention.

Which is crazy. Can you imagine being the person, That's my point is imagine being the person who's like, yeah, I talked shit about someone and they responded to me. Like what a loser. Like I can't imagine. Nobody who's out pushing themselves and doing hard things and trying to better themselves is wasting their time talking shit about people and comments. A hundred percent.

Or at least if you're going to say it's come and see me on a race and be like, you suck. And I'd be like oh really why is that all right man we got to disabuse you of that obsession so next time we'll do a whole therapy session on comment sections

yes we talked about that last time I think too so this is still haranguing you on some level and we got to get your blood markers down but I love you buddy thank you brother you're the best I really appreciate you coming here today and let's go grab something to eat. Hell yeah. Thank you for having me. And thanks to everyone for tuning in.

Appreciate this community. You guys are the best. Yeah. Peace out. That's it for today. Thank you for listening. I truly hope you enjoyed the conversation. as podcast merch, my books, Finding Ultra, Voicing Change in the Plant Power Way, as well as the Plant Power Meal Planner at meals.richroll.com. If you'd like to support the podcast, the easiest and most impactful thing you can do is to subscribe to the show on Apple Podcasts, on Spotify, and on YouTube, and leave a review and or comment. Supporting the sponsors who support the show is also important and appreciated. And sharing the show or your favorite episode with

friends or on social media is, of course, awesome and very helpful. And finally, for podcast updates, special offers on books, the meal planner, and other subjects, please subscribe to our newsletter, which you can find on the footer of any page at richroll.com. Today's show was produced and engineered by Jason Camiolo, with additional audio engineering by Cale Curtis. The video edition of the podcast was created by Blake Curtis, with assistance by our creative director, Dan Drake. Portraits by Davey Greenberg. Graphic and social media assets

courtesy of Daniel Salise. Thank you, Georgia Whaley, for copywriting and website management. And of course, our theme music was created by Tyler Pyatt, Trapper Pyatt, and Harry Mathis. Appreciate the love. Love the support. See you back here soon.

Peace. Plants. Namaste.