The Rich Roll Podcast - Kendra Little Is Becoming More: Broadening The Gender Identity Conversation

Episode Date: December 23, 2019

Growing up in the late 1970's there was no conversation around gender identity. You were either male or female. Period, end of discussion. Times have changed. The way we currently think about gender has evolved. Each day brings greater mainstream awareness to its non-binary nature -- and the innate fluidity of gender roles and identity. Take a moment to imagine the experience of being intersex -- a condition in which an individual is born with genetic variations on conventional sex characteristics. Now imagine trying to navigate the world from this non-binary biological disposition. This is the story of Kendra Little. Raised as a girl, at age 12 Kendra learned that she was born with something called androgen insensitivity syndrome, a variation of intersex that affects between 2 to 5 out of 100,000 people. The news prompted Kendra to isolate. Adopting a hormone protocol on the advice of her doctors, she remained a ‘girl’, proceeded to never discuss her condition with anybody and dove headlong into sports -- a place where she excelled and felt at home. But eventually the emotional dissonance between her true self and that which she held out to the world became too much to bear, prompting her to walk away from a promising career as a professional golfer. But that disconnect ultimately catalyzed an amazing journey of self-discovery -- and eventually wholeness. Now able to fully embrace her own unique identity (very recently I might add), Kendra is publicly sharing her story -- with both courage and pride. The intention isn't self-serving, but motivated by a genuine desire to change the way we think about non-binary gender constructs. To bring comfort to those ashamed of how they were born. And to openly permit sharing the many forms of loneliness, pain and shame so many of us keep hidden. This past July, Kendra tweeted me a video entitled Becoming More -- her story in mini-doc form created by Uninterrupted, LeBron James’ production company. I click play. Instantly, I’m captivated by Kendra’s appearance. Her facial features present as simultaneously male and female. She's both, but also neither. Kendra is truly her own unique form of humanity. But her appearance is quickly eclipsed by her strength and vulnerability -- and the compelling narrative that unfolds. I knew immediately this was a special person I wanted to know better. A fascinating story I wanted to help tell. And quite honestly, a subject matter of social importance and cultural relevance I wanted to better understand. So here we are. Kendra, I honor you for your courage in trusting me with this conversation, a privilege I don't take lightly. You can watch it all go down on YouTube (seeing Kendra helps contextualize the exchange). This one is special. May it be as enjoyable and enlightening as it was for me. Peace + Plants, Rich

I did everything in my power just to block it out and not think about it. And I got really good at it, which is probably not a good thing to block things out that are clearly impacting your life and need to be addressed. I'd have moments where I'd see things in the news or hear about other people that were somewhat related to gender or whatever. And it would kind of bring me back to a self-realization moment. And I, it was like a great cause of anxiety. I think that's an important thing to say. This is something that I've been trying to kind of tiptoe around, like as in talking about this, because one thing I don't want to do is alienate the trans community and delegitimize, you know, what they're feeling just because it's not, you know, from a genetic standpoint.

I was genetically born both, but that doesn't mean that someone that wasn't genetically born as they were born or who they were born as, that doesn't take away from how they feel, just because they don't have a genetic thing to back it up. It goes back to it's never about what anyone else thinks or anyone else feels about you. It's about how you

feel about yourself. That's Kendra Little, and this is The Rich Roll Podcast. The Rich Roll Podcast. Hey, everybody. How are you guys doing? What's happening? My name is Rich Roll. I am your host here on this podcast thing. Welcome or welcome back. So here's the thing. I'm kind of old. I recently turned 53. My formative years were in the late 70s and the early 80s. And that was a time when I think I can safely say gender for the most part was basically considered binary, male, female. You were born a boy or you were born a girl, fixed, that's that, end of discussion. Well, times have changed in lots of ways, of course.

And one of those ways is the way that we think about and understand gender, this rising increased awareness that's developing around the non-binary nature, the fluidity of gender roles, of gender identity, the very nature of gender and sexual identity itself. And given that, indulge me for a moment, I want you to imagine what it would be like to be born both male and female genetically, intersex, which essentially means being born with certain variations in sex characteristics. Now I want you to imagine trying to navigate the world from this non-binary biological disposition. Well, this is the story of Kendra Little. Kendra is somebody who was raised

as a girl, and at age 12, she learned for the very first time that she was born with something called androgen insensitivity syndrome, which is a variation on intersex that affects between two to five out of 100,000 people. Upon receiving this news, Kendra proceeded to isolate herself emotionally. As a quote-unquote girl, she never discussed it with anyone and basically dove headlong into sports, a place where she excelled and felt at home. But eventually, the dissonance, this disconnect, this dichotomy between her true self and that which she held out to the world became just too much to bear. And it prompted her to walk away from a promising career as a professional golfer, but it also led her on this kind of amazing journey of self-discovery

and ultimately wholeness. Now able to fully embrace her own identity, very recently I might add, Kendra is sharing her story with the intention of helping to change the way that we think about and talk about gender constructs, and also to bring comfort to anyone who may feel alone or ashamed of how they were born. I really love this conversation. It's incredible. But before we dig in, let's do some housekeeping. We're brought to you today by recovery.com. I've been in recovery for a long time. It's not hyperbolic to say that I owe everything good in my life to sobriety.

And it all began with treatment and experience that I had that quite literally saved my life. And in the many years since, I've in turn helped many suffering addicts and their loved ones find treatment. Since I've in turn helped many suffering addicts and their loved ones find treatment. And with that, I know all too well just how confusing and how overwhelming and how challenging it can be to find the right place and the right level of care. Especially because unfortunately, not all treatment resources adhere to ethical practices. It's a real problem, a problem I'm now happy and proud to share, has been solved by the people at recovery.com who created an online support portal designed to guide, to support, and empower you to find the ideal level of care tailored to your personal needs. They've partnered with the best global behavioral health providers to cover the full spectrum of behavioral health disorders,

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Life in recovery is wonderful, and recovery.com is your partner in starting that journey. When you or a loved one need help, go to recovery.com and take the first step towards recovery. To find the best treatment option for you or a loved one, again, go to recovery.com. Okay, Kendra.

So out of the blue, back in mid-July, I think, Kendra tweeted me, or maybe I was just tagged in a tweet. I don't recall exactly. With a link to a video about her story, a mini-doc produced by LeBron James' production company, Uninterrupted, called Becoming More. I click play, and instantly I'm captivated by Kendra's appearance. Clearly both male and female but also kind of neither. She truly is her own unique thing. I had personally previously ever come across. And I knew right away this was a story I wanted to help tell, a person I wanted to know better, and frankly, a subject matter of social importance and relevance that I wanted to better understand.

So here we are. And I got to say, it's indeed fascinating top to bottom. I would encourage all of you to check out the Becoming More video. I'll put a link up in the show notes to that. And the YouTube version of this show, as I think actually seeing Kendra really helps contextualize everything. So here we go. This is me and Kendra Little. Kendra, delighted to meet you. Thank you for doing this today. Thank you so much for having me, Rich. It's a pleasure to be here.

I get hit up pretty regularly with people pitching this person or that person or pitching themselves. And I would say 99.9% of those I just dismiss. But you emailed me some time ago and you shared the link to the uninterrupted video, which I watched right away. And I was like, wow, like this is definitely a person I want to, I want to know more about. I knew immediately that you'd be a great guest for the show. And I think your story is amazing and powerful and courageous. And I'm honored to be able to help you share it here today. Yeah. Thank you so much. I, like I said, um, you know, kind of came into awareness of yourself about four or five years ago and, and, you know, an avid listener of the podcast and just with this whole story

coming out, just thinking about, you know, how I want to share the story and, and kind of the, the corners of, you know, society I wanted to reach and, and just sort of the type of, you know, content that you put out. Um, I was like, yeah, reach out to Rich. What's, what's the worst he's going to say? No, or just not, not reply. And just sort of the type of content that you put out. I was like, yeah, reach out to Rich. What's the worst he's going to say? No. Or just not reply.

So I was like, you know, shooter's got to shoot, right? So I was like, I'll just see what happens. And then you emailed me back. And actually, first you were like, hey, I emailed you back on Twitter. And I was like, oh, God, I didn't see an email. There wasn't like, it didn't show up or whatever. There was like a glitch. And I was like, oh, no.

And then I was like. Oh, yeah, I think something happened There was like a glitch and I was like, oh no. And then I was like- Oh yeah, I think something happened. Yeah, yeah. So I was like having a panic moment. No, I'm glad that like I tweeted you as well because I wouldn't have known that that email didn't go through. And I was like, well, I guess Kendra changed her mind. But yeah, I was like, yeah, just super honored

and grateful to be here. Well, cool. In the beginning of the video, I think the first thing you say is like, I'm not sure where to begin with this story. And I feel like I'm in the same place. Like, I'm not sure where to begin with it. But I guess we can begin at the beginning. I mean, or maybe just explain a little bit about who you are and kind of provide a little context for the subject matter.

Yeah. So, you know, former professional golfer um been an athlete my whole life um my dad played basketball at the university of oregon um he got drafted in the nba so what was his nickname uh the cowboy yeah yeah doug cowboy little so he got that he got that nickname because um so back in late 60s early 70s they didn't have a three-point line so and he would always be shooting like these long shots and his coach at the time was like you know in practice like hey cowboy take that shot back to the rodeo so because it's like you know why are you shooting

from so far out if there's no three-point line so kind of right kind of he was ahead of his time yeah exactly exactly he's a maverick um so yeah just you know athletics is you know sort of in my blood and I have an older brother and older sister who are both athletes. And so athletics really played, you know, a big part of my life, you know, growing up, I always, you know, growing up figured, you know, I'd, you know, every, not every kid, but most kids grow up, you know, oh yeah, I want to be a professional athlete or whatever the case is.

And, um, fortunately had two older siblings that kind of, you know, pushed me around and kind of, I think, you know, brought my athleticism to a different level. So sports always, you know, been a big part of my life. And so I, you know, played basketball and golf all throughout high school and was going to play basketball in college as well, but ended up just playing golf and played golf in college at the University of Oregon and then turned pro. And my life has just kind of revolved around athletics basically since I was five or six years old. Well, with a dad named Cowboy. Yeah, exactly.

I don't know if there was too much choice. No, exactly. That's exactly right. And what's funny is actually none of my family really play golf. So my brother did a little bit. But my dad never pushed basketball on me. of my family really play golf. So, um, my brother did a little bit, but, um, they never, yeah, they never, my dad never pushed basketball on me. That was something that was always, you know, I really enjoyed. And, um, but golf ended up being, you know, kind of what I stuck with. So,

yeah. So you grow up as a girl, raised as a girl, identify as female today as well, right? So I want to get all of this correct and straight. And as somebody who was born in 1966, I don't want to fall down the rabbit hole of like old man syndrome. And I realize there's a lot of nuance and complexity to this. So I very much want to get this correct. So if I misstate something, please let me know. So first thing, first thing you need to know is like, for me personally, I'm super low

key about all of that. Like I, and throughout this whole process and kind of like self-discovery, um, I like just growing up, I'd get mistaken for, you know, a guy like, you know, not all the time, but it would happen. And it was something that was like, so mortifying. So just, you know, I would avoid like, you know, social just you know i would avoid like you know social you know interactions or um events to avoid you know that happening and since this whole thing is you know transpired it's like i'm i don't it doesn't i don't care anymore right like i don't you know

it's like i i've owned who i am and i you know i love myself for who i am and it was never about anyone else or anything else. It was always on the inside. And once I kind of figured that out, it was like, oh, okay, if someone mistakes me for a guy, cool, whatever. But it's been a journey to get to that point. Yeah. Oh, yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. It is very interesting just sitting across from you, looking at you, because you are the manifestation of both female and male. Like there's aspects of your face and your physique that are very feminine and also aspects that are masculine. And it's fascinating just to like look at you. You know what I mean? I love it. I hope that's not like, I say that with love.

No, absolutely, I love it. Like you're a beautiful person. Thank you. It's a very compelling, interesting look that you have. Yeah, thank you. And pose that with love. No, absolutely. I love it. Like you're a beautiful person. Thank you. It's a very compelling, interesting look that you have. Yeah, thank you. And pose that you strike. Yeah, thank you so much. And that's like I think growing up because I found out at kind of a weird age,

like 12, 13, right when puberty is hitting, back then, what was it, 2000 yeah about 2000 2001 um and like a lot of knowledge has like come you know into the fray you know like in the last 10 or 15 years but and this is still common practice it's like oh we'll just you know we're just gonna raise her as a girl and that's that you know and that's you know we're gonna put her on you know estrogen treatment and i'm gonna raise her as a girl and so for my you know, and that's, you know, we're going to put her on, you know, estrogen treatment and she's going to raise her as a girl. And so for my, you know, when I found this out my entire life, I just tried to throw myself in the female box so hard and just like, and that's why, you know, getting mistaken for a guy was always so painful or whatever is because I was in my own head forcibly trying

to put myself in that female box and rather than embracing my, you know, diverse genetic makeup, you know? So the first real pivotal moment though, comes at 12 or 13 when you have this doctor's appointment. So walk me up to that point. Like prior to that, was there some gender confusion or were you convicted in being a girl? Was there some sense that there, I mean, what was the reason that you went to go see this doctor and what happened?

Right, so, I mean, kind of when your earliest memories, as when you're a kid, six, seven years old, that's kind of, for me at least, my first things when I look back on and think about how you feel, that's when I first remember knowing or feeling that something was different. But at that age, your idea of the world is so basic and so minimal, you don't really know what to make of it. So I always knew something was different about myself, even before I found out that I was born intersex. And I could never put my finger on it. I could I found out that I was born intersex. Um, and I could never, you know,

put my finger on it. I could never, you know, figure out what it was. I would, you know, I'd be in school and, you know, I'd have my friends that were guys and friends that were girls and I could, you know, relate to, to, you know, both of them in different ways, but also kind of feel like not really like fully be able to relate. Um, and so that was always something I, you know, I felt from a young age and didn't know what it meant. Um, so, um, you know, yeah, it's like 12 or 13, you know, you're going into middle school, you have to have your, you know, physical, uh, for sports or whatever the case was. So going for a physical and the, the nurse, um, you know, you do the whole, you know, body examination and she could tell that

my body wasn't developing, you know, as a typical female would. And she's like, okay, we need to, we need to check this out. We need to see what's going on. And, um, so go up to OHSU, which is a very reputable hospital up in Portland. And yeah, that's when I discovered, or they discovered through ultrasound and blood tests and all that stuff that I was born with androgen insensitivity syndrome. Right. So explain what AIS is. So AIS is a condition, there's like three different conditions and it's, intersex

is like a big umbrella term for people that are not born within the typical gender binary, depending on what's inside their body. Right, it can mean a lot of different things. It can, it's like an umbrella term. Yeah, and they say it's like 1 in 2,000, which is true but AIS is more like

I don't want to misquote this, but it's something like one in 200,000. Um, so it's, it's pretty rare. Um, but that still means there's tens of thousands of people walking around. Exactly. So, um, and so it can mean different things. So for me, I was born without any female reproductive parts, any female internally sexual reproductive parts. I was born with male reproductive parts internally. So that's essentially – But it was not evident when you were born. Exactly.

So that's where it can kind of differ. So sometimes it's detectable at birth. Sometimes it's not. Sometimes it's not detected until puberty, which was the case for me. Um, and what's really not a good thing. And there's doctors are still doing this is these babies that they detect, you know, are born intersex are assigning genders to these babies before, you know, they grow up and are able to decide for themselves who they want to be. And so you have these kids who are growing up, and sometimes the parents won't even let them know that this happened.

And so they'll grow up and be like, I don't feel right. Something's different. I don't identify with my gender. And then they come to find out that they were born intersex and were assigned a gender as an infant. Yeah. Well, we live in a binary dualistic society. I mean, when you're born, there's a birth certificate and there's two boxes, right?

So you've got to check one of those. Exactly. Yeah. And that's changing. I was just telling Daniel that Oregon just passed not a law, but they're allowing people to identify as the third gender on their license when they're applying to get their license. So you're seeing all these little things that are coming into the equation

that are allowing people to be a little bit more diverse with what they identify as. Yeah, fluid, exactly. And I think it's important. I mean, this comes into play when we're going to talk about sports down the line here but not to conflate intersex with trans like these are different things exactly that's i think that's an important thing the important thing to say um because in this is something that i've been trying to kind of tiptoe around like as about this because one thing I don't want to do is alienate the trans community and delegitimize what they're feeling just because it's not from a genetic standpoint.

I was genetically born both, but that doesn't mean that someone that wasn't genetically born not as they were born, as they were born or who they were born as that doesn't take away from how they feel. Right. Just because they don't have like a, you know, genetic, you know, uh, thing to back it up. Right. Yeah. There's a distinction between biology and gender. Exactly. Right. And this is where it starts to quickly get complicated. And I'm the furthest, you know, from having mastered all of this, which is why I'm a little tentative about all of it. Absolutely, yeah. I really want to learn and I want to better understand.

Sure. But let's go back to 12, 13. You have this doctor's appointment. So are you, like chromosomally, are you XY or you are? Okay, right. Yeah. So it really is this merging of the two in a very unique way. Yeah. So it really is this like merging of the two. Yeah. In a very unique way. Yeah.

And it just, you can look at it from so many different angles. And I kind of go back to my entire life just trying to identify and force myself into this female box rather than embracing that masculine side of myself, that male side of myself. And a lot of that has to do with society and has to do with how we're raised and how we come to understand the world. And if I would have had resources to deal with being told at 12, 13 that you're kind of born both, um, maybe this would have played out differently. Having said that, I wouldn't change, you know, anything about how it played out. And,

um, I'm sitting here talking to you on your podcast about it, which is pretty cool. So, well, it's, I look at you and it looks like it's an almost perfect blend, like a 50, 50 kind of thing. And it leaves me wondering whether that's always the case. Does it tip sometimes more towards one of the two? Right, exactly. So what's been cool about this and sharing my story is I've had a lot of people who are intersex and who are born with a variation of AIS reach out to me. And so, yeah, it's, it's, there's definitely a spectrum. Um, there can be, uh, a full on male born with a variation of AIS and you look at him and you would never know, you would never assume that there was anything different or that they had, you know, uh, you know, variations of, of both genders. Um, it's just, it can be, um, right. And then on the other

end of the spectrum, someone who is visibly very feminine looking could also have AIS. So it just depends. So you're in this situation where you have a choice between being a masculine young girl or an effete young male, but you've been raised as a girl. You have this test.

And what's interesting is kind of what happens in the wake of, you know, coming into this information, right? Like, where are your parents in all of this? And like, how did that, you know, go? So I went up to that doctor's appointment with my mom, only my, I think my dad was working. And so we went up there and did your first of all yeah sorry to interrupt but like was there was there any sense on your parents part like now looking back uh retroactively that they knew like something was a little bit different or was this a big surprise you know what's funny is so it's important to state that me and my parents literally did not ever have a conversation

about this outside of the one doctor's appointment in Portland that when I first found out. And then when we got referred to an internal medicine doctor in Eugene that day, we talked about it. We literally never talked about it. You're like, okay. All right. Yeah. Anyway, what's for dinner? Okay. Hilarious story. So just real quick. Uh uh i remember we went to that doctor's appointment in eugene it was me and my dad my mom and that was like just a traumatic experience in itself but i remember walking out of the doctor's appointment and me and my dad my dad was like i think lakers are playing tonight oh my like i. Like, I'm not kidding. That stands out in my head, like clear as day. And well, part of that's sort of cool. Like, okay, you know, we'll, we'll deal like, he's basically saying it's going to be okay. Like I'm, I'm like, I'm not going to allow

this to like color how I see you a hundred percent. And that's, and that's how I interpreted it. And I think, you know, I've heard a lot, not a lot of feedback, but just a lot of questions surrounding, you know, how my parents handled it and all that. And I think it's tough. I think you put yourself in my parents' shoes and, and I'm the youngest, so it's, I already have that, you know, baby, you know, complex or whatever there, I'm always going to be the youngest. And, um, how would you handle it? You're a parent, Like it's, I'm sure you've thought about it and hearing the story. How would you handle, um, your kid, you know, coming to the information that your kid was born intersex. It's, it's, there's no handbook. There's no like, Oh, this is what you do. This is the, you know, I think in how they handled it, I think it was from a place of protection and love and just

wanting to create a sense of normalcy for me and just kind of sweeping under the rug was and it wasn't in like a we're ashamed of this or no one needs to know about this because we're embarrassed about it

it was more out of protection I mean I'd like to think that I would have a super woke reaction to it to know about this because we're embarrassed about it. It was more, at least how I was- Out of protecting you. Out of protection. Yeah. So- I mean, I'd like to think that I would have a super woke reaction to it, but culturally we're in a very different place right now than we were 20 years ago.

Very. So it's easy to say, right now everybody likes to think that they would do the right thing with whatever terrible thing was happening 50 years ago. It's like you weren't living in that moment. I don't think it's fair to... Perspective and hindsight sure changes a lot. So that's exactly, I think, you go back 20 years,

and it's just the rate at which the world is changing, society is changing, it's insane. So 20 years ago, it was a much different world. Right. But here you are, know 12 13 years old and it's they don't tell your siblings right so your parents know it's never discussed again but you've got this you know this bomb just dropped in your life where it's like hey you're not a girl you're not a boy you're kind of both you're neither you're you're like yeah what are you

supposed to do with that like you have no there's no counseling there's no therapy like how are you processing that as a young person? Exactly. I think I did everything in my power just to block it out and not think about it. And I got really good at it, which probably not a good thing with anything in life. It's never good to, you know, block things out that are clearly impacting your life and need to be addressed. I literally just blocked it out. Right. And, you know, I'd have, I'd have moments or I'd have, um, I'd see things, you know, in the news or hear about other people, um, that were, you know, somewhat related to gender or whatever.

And it would kind of, you know, bring me back to, you know, a self-realization moment. And I'd, it was like a great cause of anxiety, obviously. It had to be incredibly confusing. Yeah, yeah, really confusing. Well, also, it's considered like, I was diving, you know, and kind of getting ready to talk to you today. I was diving down this rabbit hole of what is intersex. I talked to you today, I was diving down this rabbit hole of what is intersex.

And there's a lot of pieces that I read that classify it as a disorder, right? And like, oh, it's a disorder, it's a disorder. I saw that word come up again and again and again. And I thought, it's not really a disorder. It's only a disorder because of how we socially classify gender, right? I mean, there's nothing wrong with you. You're just born in a certain way that's different,

but that doesn't mean that you have a disease or anything like that. And yet there was a protocol, right? Like you end up taking, you were doing estrogen therapy for a long time. Yeah, and I think that's the biggest thing looking back for me was, I remember at 12 asking the doctor if this was life-threatening, a 12 year old asking, and he was like, he kind of laughed. He said, Oh no, no, you're it's, it's not life-threatening. You can go on to live a long, healthy life and it's fine. Um, but I think that was the biggest thing looking back was, and not to throw my parents under the bus.

It can be life-threatening, though, because if you don't get help and you're confused. Exactly. That's exactly right. If you don't have the resources, if you don't have something or someone, some support system helping you walk through this, absolutely, it can be life-threatening. But it was, that's a great point. It's, you see everywhere. It's a condition. It's, it's a disorder. It's something's wrong with you. And it's, that's not the case. That was the biggest discovery for me in this whole process was understanding that actually it's kind of cool. I was born this way. It's, it's what makes me unique. It's what makes me stand out. And I think everyone has something about them that makes them unique.

And it's kind of about discovering that and owning it. But looking back as a kid, that was something that I really wish would have been clearly expressed to me. That, Kendra, you know what? It's great that you were born this way. You're perfect just how you are. Right. That was never true. Rather than being stigmatized or kind of carrying around this sense that there's something wrong but yet nothing

that you can do about it exactly it's like you're going to go to your doctor's appointments once every three months get this injection and that was just always like just such a just awful thing you know i i'd go do it and then i'd be like okay like three months you know, I, I'd go do it and then I'd be like, okay, like three months, you know, I don't have to go do that again for three months. And then that three months would fly by. And then the next couple of days I'm like, Oh, I got to go to this doctor's appointment. And that was, that was my childhood from 12 till 25. Right.

But now being on the other side of this journey of self-discovery of like embracing your authenticity when you and and owning your story and kind of owning you know who you are fundamentally when you walk into a room and you're like you stand in your power it's it's kind of fucking badass because it's like who is that like i've never seen anyone who looks kind of like that like yeah like i'm it's it's there's a magnetism to it yeah thank you yeah i appreciate that um so that's it's, it's, there's a magnetism too. Yeah. Thank you. Yeah. I appreciate that. Um, so that's, it's funny because it goes back to, it's never about what anyone else thinks or anyone else feels about you. It's about how you feel about yourself.

And before I would, you know, I'm like six, one almost, um, athletic looking. And so already I kind of stand out, but you know, then there's these other features about me that make me stand out that don't, you know, that people look at and they kind of double take. And I get that all the time. And before this, this, you know, self discovery thing happened that I was, I would just avoid those situations. I would just try and sneak in and just kind of go to the corner or whatever. And not that I enjoy the limelight really. I'm, I'm pretty introverted. Um, but it's now it's, I own all of this and I embrace it and people still,

we were flying down here and I was talking, we were sitting there waiting to get on the plane in Portland. And, um, Daniel and I are just like charging our phones and this couple is sitting, I don't know, 10 feet from us. and I can tell they're talking about me. He kind of like whispers in her ear. And I was like in mid sentence talking to Daniel and I was like, sorry, I got sidetracked. These people are talking about me. And, and Daniel just like starts laughing and, um, you just kind of have to like laugh at it because you don't really know what they're saying and it doesn't

matter anyway. And, um, but it, yeah, it is interesting. Um, I think i think people yeah kind of look at me and are like huh what's going on there that's but you are in portland it's like the most progressive i know exactly there's no there's no better place i really could be from than portland so i'm very lucky for that so all right so you start getting these estrogen injections and the idea behind that is to like repress the the progression the growth of like your innate maleness correct and kind of keep that at bay yeah exactly because you know obviously finding out that age is pivotal you're about to go through puberty and your body's about to really change so it's interesting to think about, had I not gone on hormone treatment, what I would look like today or how my mind would be different, um, all that stuff. Um,

but yeah, essentially that's what it was. Um, and that was kind of the goal was, or the plan was, I guess, um, not by my design really, um, take the, take the estrogen hormone, um, and then eventually you know have you know my testes removed essentially um to whatever and that's and that's what you hear um from all these doctors that that go in and take them out of these children oh it's well it's you know it's cancer risk and it's like well actually my body's completely healthy and fine and everything that's internally in my body is healthy so like that's not something that needs to happen immediately or at 18 um i can

you know go on and live an extremely healthy life and everything internally in my body can be fully functional and fine um but that's kind of what that that's what they do they put under the guise of oh well it's a cancer risk so we'll just take them out and it's like you that's something i've heard a ton from people reaching out and seeing my story is, well, yeah, I'm intersex, but as a baby or whatever age, about the age that I found out that I was intersex, they removed, had surgery.

It's depriving you of your agency and your choice about how you want to live and be. Yeah, exactly. I mean, certainly how you want to live and be. Yep, exactly. Certainly, you know, if you want to make that decision for yourself at some point in adulthood, that's your prerogative. But the fact that it would be done, you know, at birth or as a young person doesn't seem to make sense. I know now there's some intersex advocacy groups that are really rallying against that practice. Yeah, Interact is one agency that I've been kind of in touch with and they've been,

they've been great throughout this whole process of talking with the lady that is kind of the head of that. And we had a really good conversation and, and just hearing about her experience, she's like, I think 45. So, I mean,

I can't imagine, you know, being born in the late 70s, whenever she was born, early 80s, I guess would be in the 70s. And having, what I found out, it already was not woke. Like everyone, I can't imagine being born in the 70s and the lack of information that they had back then. It's crazy to think

about so yeah well you know this is all happening in a good time for you yes yeah so what is the experience of of getting uh estrogen injections like how does that change how you feel so i just remember um from an aesthetic standpoint my body i, I gained weight, I had acne, really soft features, lethargic all the time. Like I said, basketball was a big part of my life and just absolutely loved playing. And I never, I look back on my high school career and there was never a game where I felt like my energy level was at 100%. I was always at 75, 80%, no matter what.

And it's not like I wasn't conditioning. It's not like I wasn't practicing, doing all these things. And so that was a big part of it. Just your overall morale is just down. That's the best way I can explain it. And that's traditionally how I always felt was just, just not at a hundred percent. And for me, it's like, you're putting something, you know, for an agent in your body, that's not meant to be there. Clearly I was born this way and should just be left alone. And I don't need anything else. I don't need some foreign agent, you know,

to come into my body and, um, disrupt your hormonal regulation. Exactly. And so, yeah, it was, um, just not, not a good experience at all. Um, and I stopped taking it. I'm, I'll be 31 in a couple of days. Um, stopped taking it when I was 25. And from basically 25 on, I've never felt better. I've never felt more energized, more alert, just cognitive function, just everything. And I don't have any science to back that, but just speaking from my experience and my perspective, that's just how I've felt. Well, it's great that your body could still go back to its set point after that practice going on for so many years.

I think that just speaks to how amazing our bodies are and how amazing the human body is. It's built to last. It's designed to fix itself and to thrive if you, if you give it the right thing. So, um, it is, it is amazing. Well, it was interesting in the video, you see these pictures of you when you were much younger, when you were taking the hormones and you look a lot different. You look very, very much a girl. And obviously, that had a profound impact on like,

your not just your physiology, but like how you navigated the world at that time. Yeah, absolutely. It played into sexuality, it played into how I saw myself. And it's all connected. There's different sectors of the mind and the body, but it is all interconnected. And it impacted the way I felt, the way I saw the world,

the way I saw myself. Did you do like the traditional date boys in high school thing? Or what was that like? Kind of. Not really. And that's another thing that's really funny is i remember going back when i was six or seven years old like i had crushes on girls like there's no doubt about it and and thinking about it and that even looking back on that that was definitely like kind of the first sign that, uh, something was different. Um, something was causing that either whatever, but, um, but yeah, I tried to, you know, I tried to fit into that mold.

I tried to, um, I had an older and I have an older sister and, and she, you know, was an incredible influence on me and just kind of helped me navigate. And she obviously, she didn't know, but I think sisters have certain experiences together and certain conversations together. And those obviously weren't happening. You know, I didn't, I didn't menstruate. I didn't do these things that, um, you know, sisters would probably be talking about. Um, so she, she, and she's pretty intuitive herself. Um, so she knew something was, was different.

Um, but didn't, you know, didn't never say anything, didn't, you know, fully understand. And but having her kind of helped me and she was so supportive and so inclusive and just wanted me to be around her and hang out with her friends. And at a time where my self-confidence and self-esteem was low, honestly. That was huge. And she kind of helped me navigate a very difficult time for any youth going through high school or middle school. It's a confusing time, as it is, let alone trying to navigate being both genders kind of.

Right. Well, you must have gotten some self-confidence from sports because you're crushing it in basketball and golf. I'm beyond grateful for athletics. That's probably saved my life. Not that I ever had any moments of just – I didn't have any rock-bottom moments, I don't think. But sports were always the centerpiece of my life growing up and, and had been until I stopped playing professional golf.

So in a way it, it held me back in some, you know, in some areas of self-discovery, but also was kind of the vehicle to navigate me through a lot of confusion and almost served as a distraction, which I think distractions in life can be positive. I think they're necessary in certain times. But sports, yeah, saved my life essentially. So in high school, what was your crowd? I take it you were a pretty sort of to-yourself kind of person, but who were you hanging out with

yeah i was i like i was but i did i had a lot of friends and i think and it's been really cool since this video come out um hearing from people from that i grew up with from elementary school through high school and and i i keep hearing the same answer is, you know, wow, this kind of makes sense because we always just saw you as Kendra. Like we never, like, and I hear that from my brother and sister. I hear that from their friends. I hear it from my friends. It's like, oh, well, never really thought about it. We felt something was different maybe, but we just saw you as Kendra.

And that's how I feel to this day. And that's how I always felt growing up. But yeah, I did kind of keep to myself. but we just saw you as Kendra. And that's how I feel to this day. And that's how I always felt growing up. And, um, but yeah, I, I, I did kind of keep to myself. I kind of keeping people at bay.

I didn't let anyone really get too close to me, but it was kind of friends with everyone and, and nice to everyone and, and got along with everyone and just, you know, just kind of tried to just, just go about my business. And was anyone like,

I knew, I knew all along. I knew from day one like all like you know 2020 in retrospect i honestly no one has said that no the only thing i've gotten is we knew we just kind of thought you're a tomboy that's kind of like what i what i get um but no one is and that's what's crazy so had you ever heard of intersex or were you familiar with it before you saw my story? No, I mean, I've been sort of following at arm's length like the Castor Semenya's case.

So I mean, that's probably the closest that I've gotten to kind of understanding that world. Yeah, so it's just people just don't know about it. And people, you hear a lot about like hermaphrodites, and that's literally not something that is like a human can't be. That means that you have literally both, both reproductive parts and you're, you know, that's not something that happens in, in with humans. So that's kind of a pejorative term. It is. And it's not, yeah, it's a very kind of, yeah, not,

not something that you'll, you'll hear that sometimes. And it's very yeah, not, not something that you'll hear that sometimes, and it's very, yeah, not a welcome term. So, yeah, everyone is just like, oh, wow, I didn't even know this was a thing. And so we were talking uninterrupted yesterday in front of 50 people, and so I was like, had anyone heard of intersex, or have you known an intersex person before you saw my video? And like three people raised their hand.

Or they think it means trans yeah see that's that's where it's you know it's it's just they do get kind of lumped together and they're but they're you know obviously we talked about they're extremely different so this whole process has been it's been educational for me because for a lot of my life, I didn't even want to think about it. I didn't want to research it. I didn't want to hear about it. I just blocked it out. And so even for me, you know, doing research and learning about it as I'm, you know, telling this, this, the world, my story is, has been crazy, but, um, hearing from people, whether it's strangers or friends wanting to know more and wanting to ask questions. And that's, that's what I want. You know, at this point I'm an open book and I want, you know,

I want people to be educated. So, so you go off to Oregon for college and you play golf and you're killing it, right? Like you clearly super talented golfer. Um, you have this crazy long swing, right? Like that's what you were known for. And I read a little bit, you know, a couple articles and people were like, yeah, I mean, Kendra could just go into any tournament and win when she put her mind to it. But there was always the consensus or it seemed like people were saying,

you know, she should have gone further with it. Like there's no reason why she couldn't have been just absolutely killing it on the LPGA tour. So there was something holding you back, right? Yeah. Um, so walk me up, you know, walk me through this experience of playing golf in college and going pro and what happened? Yeah. So I, I just have a very weird relationship with golf. I always have. Um, basketball was always my main sport. It was always my, my true love. And, um, I think part of me always feels like I wish I would have taken basketball further.

I could have played both in college. I opted to just play golf, um, in the, in the form of, of being practical, I guess. And, and, and with the idea of turning pro after college, which practical, I guess. And, and, and with the idea of turning pro after college, which it's just funny because when you, when you look back and think about how you view age and view the world, when you're in high school, going into college, you think you have all this time and you think, Oh, that's, you know, five years away. I'll figure it out. Uh, you know, when I'm after college and looking to turn pro, I'll figure it out then. It goes by quicker than you think. So I always kind of just went along with this idea that I'd play professional golf and I'd just do it. And then with that, I have this huge thing going on that I haven't addressed in my entire life.

So I just kind of delayed it and just let it be and just kind of went along this path of, oh, yeah, I'll turn pro. So I go play in college for four years and do really well. And I'm working towards this goal that everyone thinks is my dream, that I'm going to go play professional golf and be on the LPGA. And I just kind of go along with it. But it wasn't really your dream. No, it really wasn't. Um, and I think,

I think it's interesting to look back and think about how I would have viewed golf differently if I would have just been born, uh, or athletics in general. Um, how did it just been born, you know, a fully functioning female, none of this extra, uh, baggage going on, how I would have dealt with it and what I would, had of this extra, uh, baggage going on, how I would have dealt with it. And what I would, had I been born, you know, fully female, what my goals would have been, how I would have viewed the sport and, and, you know, how I would have navigated that. But, um, so yeah, I had a really successful college career. Um, won tournaments, placed well, all conference,

all that stuff. Um, and had a fifth year at school afterwards. My, my senior year didn't end very well. And, um, I was kind of burnt out on golf. So I was kind of thinking about my options, but, um, I was like, well, I need to try this. I need to, you know, I need to turn pro and, and, um, and see, you know, where this goes. Meanwhile, just still refusing to think about, you know, the, the, the underlying issue of, of gender. Was there a sense that someday, you know, that moment, that reckoning would come or were you operating under the idea? Like, I'm just going to hide this forever. So I figured, I figured one day it would it would come out and i think always in the back of my head i knew that it was going to get to a point after i turned pro that i was either

going to have to fully face it and and and come out to the world and be like i'm i was born intersex i'm going to continue to play professional golf and i'm going to figure this out. And the governing bodies, we're going to have to, because they have rules and regulations set in place, and we're going to figure it out. Or it's going to be the reason I set away from golf, and it ended up being the latter. So I just knew that I played on the Symmetra Tour for two years. I had status for another year before I stopped playing.

I had a little bit of success, not a lot. And kind of what you're speaking to, just people being like, what's going on there? She has all the tools. She has everything to make it to the top, and there's something going on there. And I had my swing coach, who was a fraternity brother of my dad's in college, actually,

who I had worked with as a kid and into college and then as a pro. He was interviewed for a Golf Week article, and he said something like, I always questioned her mental strength. I just figured she didn't have a lot of strength. And he obviously didn't know any of this about the way I was born. And coming into this knowledge about how she was born, I can't imagine how mentally tough she is. So I think I always felt like I was mentally weak

because that's what I heard from people. Like, why aren't you producing? Why aren't you shooting these numbers? Why aren't you progressing to the LPGA? You have all the ability in the world and are you not passionate about it? Or do you not have the work ethic? And it wasn't that.

It was this underlying issue of not addressing. Right, well, A, you're not a fully integrated person. Like you're in denial of your true essence. So in a game like golf, where precision is everything, that dissonance affecting every aspect of my golf game of my personal life it was 100 especially with in a game like golf where you have so much time to think about things and process things and the reason i like basketball so much was because i could just rely on my you know inherent athleticism and ability to just react and not think about it. Golf, I had all the time in the world to think about everything and not a good thing. Yeah. Thinking that's not going to help. Right. Exactly. Like golf's all about trying to not think. Yeah, exactly. And that's some of the

best golfers, uh, are just able to just calm their minds down and just go out there and, and, and be reactive and just and just play. Right. So you have that going on. But I think at the same time, like I look at it as a fear of success, really, because success would mean ultimately that this secret is going to come out and it's not going to come out on your terms. 100%.

That's exactly what it was, fear of being successful. out on your terms. 100%. That's exactly what it was. Fear of being successful. And, um, because that would 100% mean that it was going to come out. I remember I qualified to play in the U S women's open and I was like terrified. I was going to get drug tested and they were going to find, you know, even though I was still on estrogen, they were going to find a higher levels of testosterone and I was going to get, you know, outed. And that was like a horrifying experience. I played awfully at the open and, um, it was incredible experience because the U S women's open, but, um, I was in the back of my mind, I'm just sitting there like waiting to get tapped on the shoulder. Come with me. We got to go paint a cup. So yeah, you could have

called a press conference though and come out with it i know right exactly you know i have i have something small to announce and just and just kind of just out of myself and just and just brought on the storm um and it's just you weren't ready exactly exactly so you end up quitting golf and then it was it was around that exact same time that you stopped at the estrogen treatment yep yep and so what was that decision all about? I was just tired of the way it was making me feel, what it was doing to my body. I weigh like 6'1", I weighed, I don't know, 160, something like that. And I was 180, 185.

And I mean, I was working out and stuff. I was healthy. I wasn't, you know, do anything crazy. The estrogen made you gain weight when it's supposed to keep this hormone at bay that is associated with muscle bulk and alike. Yeah, absolutely. I, I don't know, you know, I'm sure there's, there's science behind it or, you know, whatever, but it's, it was almost not instant, but as soon as I stopped taking it, I'd leaned out. Um, I was able to put on more muscle mass, um, sort of makes sense. But, um, I think my frame just in general is more, obviously more of a lean frame. So I just got, kind of got back to my essence. I'm going to play basketball now. Right. Exactly. I'm going to go, I'm going to go do an open tryout. Just, just, yeah, just,

just play some basketball. Actually, when I stopped playing golf, I actually went and, you know, joined a city league in Portland and played a bunch of basketball. So that was like so fun. I don't do it anymore just because I'm just, I don't want to, you know, tear an ACL or tear an Achilles over, you know, an open gym. And how long did, once you stopped the estrogen, how long did it take for your body to kind of reach a stable set point? I would say probably a year. Yeah. Yeah, probably a year.

That's kind of when I really started to notice a difference, you know, sort of physically and mentally was about a year. That's kind of when I really started to notice a difference sort of physically and mentally was about a year. And the fact that you made that decision tells me that you're inching up towards a willingness to own this finally. I think so. And you never know. Was there something that prompted that decision? Oh, yeah. Yeah, I met someone last summer uh-huh yeah that completely flipped my paradigm 100 yeah when that person was like

what are you doing or were you honest with that person so i met her uh last june yeah june 2018 in portland um and she she knew right away, um, something was, something was different. Something was, um, but it was, was totally accepting. And, and it's just funny cause I didn't, obviously I didn't tell her right away. Like I still hadn't told anyone. Um, and it led, I think I told her, actually I told her on my birthday, uh, 2018, which was sort of been like a month and a half later. Um, we had an open conversation about it and, um, she was like, yeah, Kendra, I already knew.

And I don't care. Like, I think you're, I think you're great. I think you're perfect how you are. And, and it's so funny because I, you know, growing up, I always kind of imagined what that conversation would be like with the first person that I told. And just kind of fearing their reaction or fearing being denied or being just made to feel less. And as humans, I guess we sometimes always fear the worst or think that the worst thing is going to happen. And it was the complete opposite of what happened. And was like oh okay well that went pretty well maybe you

know have a conversation with it about about this with my family yeah so well the scarier thing we we sort of assume like we're afraid of what all these people are going to think but i think in your case it's really about having to then own this essential truth about who you are. That's the truly terrifying part of it. Exactly. You can hide behind like, oh, I don't want the judgment of other people. It's the self-judgment. Exactly.

It's never about what anyone else thinks or feels about you. It's always about how you feel about yourself. And for my entire life, I didn't understand that. It was always, oh, I'm afraid of what people are going to think or what people are going to say. And, and I think you never know what event is going to prompt you to kind of own yourself or whatever, you know, situation it is. Um, for me, it was meeting someone and being, being told that I think you're great. I think the way you're born is really cool um that's what it was for me and so it could be meeting someone it could be an event that

happens to you it could be you know a situation that you're in you never really know what it is going to be but it it is always within you and maybe it just takes something to to bring it out yeah and the next kind of phase is when you write a couple letters, right? So how long after that? Yeah, so I think I wrote that letter to my family. When would that have been? That would have been September? No.

Yeah, September, early September. So it was probably three or four weeks after I had had that first conversation. And that was, I sat in a coffee shop in Portland and actually typed it. I didn't write it. It would have been cool to be handwritten, but it would have been really long. Typed it in a coffee shop and just kind of unloaded on it for three hours and sent it off to all of them. And then, yeah, the, the phone started blowing up from everyone. So my brother, he was living in Hollywood at the time. Um, my

sister, where was she? I guess she was, she was living in Portland as well. And, and my parents were in Portland, but, um, yeah, I kind of dropped that, that bomb on them. And, um, and my parents and talking to them, you know, in hindsight, they this was always we knew this was this day was going to come we just didn't know when it was going to come and we wanted it to be on your terms when you look back on how they parented you through that do do you have misgivings? Like, do you feel like, I wish they had known this or had done this and how do they feel about how that whole thing went? I think from my standpoint,

I don't have any real feelings towards them at all. I think because I know how they acted was from a place of protection and love. That was always the attitude I got from them in regards to this. It was never, like I said, it was never, you know, we're ashamed of this. We can't tell anyone. We're embarrassed by this. It was, I could just sense that it was from a place of protection.

I think they, and they haven't really been open with me about how they truly felt in dealing with it. I think they had a lot of guilt as you get older. And you can kind of start to see through what your parents tell you. You can kind of be like, oh, they're blind. They're not. That's BS. I just feel like at least at one point, they would have been like, Kendra, remember that thing when you were 12? Are you okay?

How's it going? Do we need to talk about this like it's crazy right is there somebody that you want to talk to you know yeah we help you like never going on inside never happened yeah which is crazy um and from the outside i can i can see why people would be like what is going on there like why why was that like not even like hey kend, you know, that time when you were told you were born both genders, like, how are you doing with that? I mean, we were like, wait,

did that actually happen? Or was that like some dream that I had? It was like an out of body experience. It was like transporting to a different realm and just like, wait, I just hear that. Right. Like I'm both.

Huh? So, um, so yeah, I think, I think they, they, they harbored a lot of guilt over it it's like you're cut you're like uh you know like uh you're like uh a superhero or you're you're um not the avengers who are the ones that all go to the school you know um the mutants oh you know the teenage mutant ninja turtles no no no no The one where the guy in the wheelchair.

You know the superhero movies where all the kids that are different and they go to the school. What's that called? Help us out. What's that? X-Men. Yeah, the X-Men.

It's like you're kind of an X-Man. Yeah, yeah. But we're not going to talk about it anymore. Yeah, exactly. You just file that away and you're resets the memory. Exactly, exactly. It's funny because I was having a conversation with one of my buddies.

His name is Mike. And he was saying, like, you know, your story really reminds me of this animated cartoon that I used to watch. And I don't remember the name of it, but he was like, this cartoon had all these cool superpowers and never felt like he could share it with the world because he thought that everyone would think he was weird and he was embarrassed about it but really when he did tell him it made everyone like him and think he was his coolest thing and I was like yeah that's pretty cute

I'll go with that I don't have superpowers but I'm both genders and just to be clear like I use the word mutant because that's what the X-Men that's the vernacular of the X-Men I'm not saying that in the context of being intersex right totally like please don't at me with that all right um all right but you write these letters and it sounds like they're pretty well received right like you're loved by your siblings and your parents and all of that yeah um so how do you go

from there to now you know kind of being public about this? Yeah, avoiding YouTube comments, avoiding comments in USA Today articles. Well, how did the Uninterrupted project come together? We should say Uninterrupted is the digital production company of LeBron James. And Mavik Carter, yeah. Did they approach you, or how did they find out, or how did this happen? It's a crazy story, actually. Did they approach you or how did they find out?

No, so it's a crazy story actually. So after I had that initial conversation, it was kind of tossed, the idea was kind of tossed around like, hey, you should really tell this story publicly and I think it would help a lot of people. And I was like, yeah, like I kind of just told my family. But how did they know then? Well, who? Well, who said, like, yeah. I kind of just told my family. But how did they know then? Well, who? Well, who said, like, I'm confused.

So who reached out to who? Right, right. So the idea that I would maybe approach some media entity and approach them and be like, hey, I have this story I want to share. Would you be interested in helping me tell it? So at first, and I won't name the media company, it was another kind of athlete geared media company. I approached them and said, hey, well, first I reach out to a friend who I thought might have a connection there. And so I told that friend who was like the second, third person, you know, that I'd ever shared my story with. It's like, hey, do you think this is something

they might be interested in telling? He was like, I think so. Let me get in touch with my friend who's an editor there. So I was in touch with that editor for like two months and the process just was really slow. It wasn't going, I didn't feel like it was going anywhere and I was kind of getting frustrated. And I ended up telling Daniel, who's here with us today, my friend, my story. I told him, I'm talking to this media company about sharing this story on a platform, but it's not really going anywhere. I'm kind of frustrated. He was like, well, I have this friend who works at Uninterrupted.

You should reach out to them and see if they would be interested in sharing it. I think they would. He gave me his friend's contact information. I wrote an email and said, hey, this is my story. you guys be interested in in helping me tell the world about it and he was like definitely and i'm it was almost like the next day i was on the phone call with um jimmy spencer the vp there and a creative director camille who i've worked closely with throughout this whole thing and they were incredible so that that's kind of how that, that kind of came into light. And that was in December of 2018. Right.

So you, you guys shot this quite a long time ago. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Um, I think the first time we filmed was March and then they came back up, um,

in end of April to shoot again. So it was from December basically until July 8th, I think it was the day it came out. It was pre-production, filming, post-production. And so it was, yeah, it was a seven month process. Right. It was, well, it's beautifully done. They did a great job.

They did. I mean, just- I can't imagine like a more compelling and graceful way to introduce your story to the world. Yeah, yeah. Super, super grateful to Uninterrupted for allowing me to share the story. And it's not like I'm clearly not a household name. I'm a golfer from the Symmetra Tour.

So it's like I didn't have that clout to back it up, but they saw value in sharing a story like this. And I think the, the uniqueness of it, and I'm just, I can't really put into words how grateful I am towards them. Um, and just not only allowing me to share the story, but how they handled it and how they, um, they knew it was a delicate subject and just involving me in areas that they probably usually don't allow, um, when they're working with an athlete, but just because of the delicacy of the subject,

they included me a lot in sort of the shaping of it and how it was presented. And just, yeah, I don't, I just, yeah, I have amazing things to say about that. I mean, it's not really a video about sports. Exactly. Being an athlete. Exactly.

It's, yeah, I have this crazy story and I also happened to play golf and that was very much so that's kind of how we wanted to, to frame it as well as, um, it was, you know, I played golf at a high level, but this, this other part of it is, is way more obviously the, the centerpiece. So, so that was like five or six weeks ago when this thing was published and introduced to the world. And there's been a fair amount of media in the wake of that, USA Today, Golf Digest. There's been a lot of articles out. But I would imagine it's been a pretty tumultuous,

topsy-turvy last six weeks of you now being foisted, you know, by choice, by design, you know, into this place where you're now, you know, associated with what it means to be intersex and the focal point of conversations that are taking place around this subject, particularly in the context of sports and being an athlete. Totally. I think, and that's, that was, and obviously whenever the story was going to come out, I knew that that was the direction the conversation was going to go was, okay, well, this is great, but should you have been allowed to compete? And that was always what I was most afraid of. And yeah, it's, like I said, yeah,

try to avoid looking at comments on these publications, but I do take a peek and kind of see what people say. And it's tough. It's a complex issue. And we kind of touched on Castor earlier, and I don't think there is one easy solution or right answer. But just kind of being now looked at as sort of a voice for this gender you know, gender and sport, you know, topic. And yeah, it's tough. Well, you're new to suddenly being a mouthpiece for this, right? And so the sense that I get is you're trying to work all this out in real time, but everyone's looking to you now to

have an opinion about these things. And, you know, I just know as somebody who has a very, you know, arm's length relationship with kind of what's going on in this world, I have knee jerk reactions where it seems very black and white. And even in preparing to talk to you today, like I really did some research into this world. And the more that I learn, the more I realized it is much more complex and nuanced than even I originally imagined. And I thought that I had a pretty good grip on it. Yeah, yeah, exactly. I think to your point, I have been kind of figuring this out as I go.

And I don't have an official stance on – I'm very much still formulating – because all of this is still extremely new to me. Like I said, I'm still doing research. I'm still figuring out about myself and what this all means. And like you said, people kind of want me to have a stance on it and stand for something. And it's tough because I'm not there yet. And I'm still figuring it out. And I think I kind of just go back to the idea of, you know, inclusion. And at the end of the day, that's, that's the direction I think that we as a society are going. We as, you know, athletes and the sports world in general are going,

you're starting to see way more inclusion. And I think just sort of bending the way that we look at gender and how we, you know, it's not black or white. It's very much a spectrum and there's a lot of gray area. But with that, it is a complex issue. And it is something that I think both sides are going to have to make compromises in the short term, at least. It's super difficult like basically what it is is a human rights issue that is butting up against the interest of fairness in sport and it's a gender identity issue that is also butting up against traditional ideas of fairness in sport and how you reconcile all of these things to create um you know not not an even playing field, but a playing field that we can all wrap our heads around that seems at least fair. There is no good immediate solution.

And it's interesting that you're this, you know, this coming out, you know, July 8th, when this video comes out, I mean, it's right on the heels of May 9th with this big meet where, you know, how do you say her last name? Semenya. Semenya. Yep. Castro Semenya, you know, competed at this event and is really challenging these new regulations and rules in track and field that are requiring her to lower her testosterone. And, you know, from what I understand, her testosterone. And, you know, from what I understand, her medical records are sealed, but there's, there's been leaks and the kind of consensus is that, you know, she's somewhere on the intersex spectrum. I mean, if you look at pictures of her, it's not a leap, you know, to imagine that that's the truth. Totally. And so what does that mean as, as, as an athlete who's

competing at the highest level? I mean, she won gold in 2012 and 2016 in the 800 meters. Going into 2020, now being forced to take testosterone-reducing drugs in order to create some basic fairness in the sport. Like, I don't know that lowering testosterone is the right way. I understand the sentiment behind it. Like, she's a beast, right? And if she is intersex, is that fair? Like, I don't know the answer to that. And we don't need to, you know,

come to some determination of that right now. We're gonna figure it out right now. But I do appreciate the complexity of it. And I can very much see both sides of this argument. Totally, totally. It is tough it's um like you said it's it's like first of all who who decides that this level of testosterone is like so someone set this this level that she's above or whatever that's the acceptable level and it's like okay some some person said that that said okay well this is this is the the quote-unquote norm or whatever the case is and she actually just got barred from i don't

know if you saw it from competing in the world championships she can't defend her title right yeah so it was an appeal but the appeal was denied yeah yeah so i think like you said in the short term there is no there is no immediate answer there's there is no matter which way you go one party is going to feel like they're being you know given the shaft or however you want to phrase it um so and like you said it's like is is the testosterone level is that what is that the determining factor as to why she's so great or why she's so dominant in this sport right so it's like yeah i think there's questions around that in terms of how the science breaks down i know that um you know whether you're you're double x or x y is a big factor in how your body processes testosterone

and testosterone isn't the only thing but i think fundamentally this is a person who was born a certain way in the same way that you you are and her argument is like, look, I've been a woman my whole life. This is how I was born. If I'm naturally higher in certain aspects of what it means to perform at the highest level, at what point does that become unfair? And the example that keeps getting raised is like, well, Michael Phelps has this incredible wingspan and he's got giant feet and hands. And should we make him, you know, get surgery to reduce the size of his hands because he's genetically gifted in a way that other people aren't. It's trickier with gender and sex though. It is. And that's someone actually asked me that question yesterday uninterrupted. Um, and this is a deeper topic that we don't have to go into, but I do think,

um, it is because she is female and the way we, it's not we, but society views strong, dominant females. I think you look at the way, um, I brought this up yesterday,

the way Megan Rapinoe has been treated and, and how she's been labeled, you know, she goes and celebrates the goal and she's like, Oh, she's so egotistical, she's so arrogant. And it's like her male counterpart goes and does that. Cristiano Ronaldo goes and celebrates the goal

and everyone's- Greatest thing ever. Exactly, so it's like, why is there this double standard? So it's- Yeah, if there was a male athlete who just had crazy high levels of testosterone, nobody would say, well, that guy needs to take, needs to lower his testosterone. He needs to go take some estrogen. Like naturally. Nobody would say, well, that guy needs to take, needs to lower his testosterone.

He needs to go take some estrogen. Like, it would be celebrated. Like, oh, he's such, you know, he's such a, yeah, like specimen. And it's a broader conversation about not just gender and sexuality, but also fairness in sport. Right. You know, where do we draw these lines? And, you know, we all want some semblance of fairness, but what does that look like and

what does that mean? And it breaks down when we get into this terrain. There was a really great episode of Malcolm Gladwell's podcast, Revisionist History, where he talked about this with respect to two pitchers, baseball pitchers, one who, I'm forgetting their names, I should have noticed, but like one who had a surgery to repair whatever the rotator cuff or whatever it is i know i'm totally mis recalling this but that's totally fine and it went back to normal and the other pitcher who got some it was steroids or some kind of you know injections that were just used for medical purposes to kind of enhance the healing process

so he could get back on the mound. And that person became a pariah. Right. So we have, and that's, this is two like dudes in Major League Baseball. Now imagine intersex and all of these other issues that get thrown in there and all of our biases and historically how we think about these things, it just becomes like almost impossible to have a cogent discussion about it

exactly i i kind of go back to the idea of how are we evolving as humans and i i attribute a lot of my athleticism obviously genetics but also having an older brother and having, you know, playing against him and him roughing me up and having to raise my game to meet his level. So it's like, and this is another example, it's like right now in the WNBA, there aren't a ton of women who are dunking basketball at 10 feet. Right. So I've, you know, there's on Twitter or whatever there's in the past, there's been discussions. Well, should we lower the hoops to eight feet to make the game a little more exciting or how should we handle that? And it's like, well, what happens if we lower the hoop to eight feet? We're not going to, we're not going to, you know, uh, continue as evolve, continue to evolve as humans. Someday at 10 feet, there's

going to be women who are throwing down the basketball all the time. I don't know how far into the future that is, but that's going to be because you set a level, we will meet it. So it's like, what are we saying if we don't allow caster or anyone who's intersex to compete? If they identify as female and they were born female, if we bar them, I think we're doing the greater good a disservice. I think allowing these people to compete, well, maybe not tomorrow or in a year or two, but maybe five, 10 years down the road, it is going to raise the level of competition,

in my opinion. Yeah, it's hard, man. Yeah. Because I can easily see the other side of it. Yeah, exactly. If I was an Olympic 800 meter female runner right and i see castor i'm like yeah i can't compete with that that person is is is fundamentally different from me right there's should be characterized as such there's there's um there's components of her that

no matter how hard i work no matter what i do i will not be able to compete and all you do is look at the times. Like there's so much better. And in track, especially it's like, like her numbers are like astronomical, like in terms of like distances of the, you know, what she wins by is, you know, in track terms. I think at that meet in May,

she beat the American record holder by like four or five seconds or something. Which is insane. You know, it's like. So, but then you looking back on your career as a golfer, like there has to be some aspect of you that, you know, has to own the fact that you had an advantage.

For sure. Or some benefit to being wired the way that you're wired that allowed you to be successful. Yeah, yeah. And I think like the, how far I hit the golf ball is definitely one thing. I'm easily the longest hitter on probably any tour if I were to go out right now.

And what's funny about that is it's great. It's great to hit the ball really far. It can also be a great detriment. Symmetra Tour typically plays golf courses that are shorter and tighter, which for someone that hits the ball a long way, isn't an advantage. It's actually, you know, I'm so many times I would only hit driver one or two times during the round. I'd, you know, constantly be hitting like two iron off the tee or three wood and,

and essentially taking my greatest weapon out of my bag because I'm not going to hit driver on a hold that's short and narrow because the chances I hit in the trees are pretty high. So not to say that this is like a disadvantage, but golf is funny in that something that can be viewed as a huge advantage can also be a disadvantage. But absolutely, they're looking at the way I was born and how it put me in a place that other women that I was competing against simply wouldn't be able to get to no matter what they did. That's an advantage. And that's something that, yeah, I do have to accept and own. And that's a whole part of this. How do you think about all these things in the transgendered athlete community? Because then it becomes even harder to wrap your head around. Yeah.

I think there has been a couple of cases in the Northeast somewhere where there's been transgender boys who identify as girls have been allowed to compete as girls in track meets and you want to talk about a sticky subject that yeah um i think i think it goes back to kind of what i was talking about earlier about how just because i was biologically born this way or genetically born this way it doesn't make how I feel internally more legitimate than someone that was born fully functioning male who identifies as a female. Um, I think when you involve sports, it obviously makes it extremely difficult and tricky, but from a human element, um, it doesn't,

it doesn't make my case more legitimate because I have science to back it. It's, I think it's just, it's just about people having compassion for people and understanding that you truly don't know how someone, how they're feeling on the inside or what they're going through. Um, and you, you need to respect that, but yeah, it's, it's, it's a difficult subject. Yeah, it really is. I mean, this is, this is a situation in which I really want to fully understand all aspects of this debate and this argument. And maybe it is because I'm 52 years old and grew up in a different time. But to me, I look at the clear-cut cases like a transgender woman who is in combat sports or power lifting.

And those seem to be people who have undebatable advantages. And it's odd to me that we're debating this at all, but then I watched a little mini documentary on Vice about this power lifting transgendered woman named JC. And she looks at it as a human rights issue and she feels like she has met all of the sort of regulations that she was supposed to meet and took her testosterone reducing drugs and, you know, all the like, and is adamant that she should be allowed to compete. And I have a, it's a harder leap for

me to see her point of view than it is for me to go, look, you, if you, if you were born and raised male and you developed, you know, a certain bone density and musculature and all of that, and then you, you transition to female and then you go into the boxing ring or the cage and you're in an MMA fight, it almost seems unsafe and certainly unfair. Yeah. I think for me it's definitely a case of seeing both sides to it. I think you have to look at it from both points of view and imagine yourself as a fully functioning female growing up and what that entails, how your body develops

and the physical disadvantage you have compared to a fully functioning male. You grow up your whole life, you do all these things, you reach the top level in MMA, and all of a sudden you you're standing, you know, in the ring with someone who was born fully male and transitioned to female. From that person's point of view, I, yeah, I'd feel I'd probably feel a certain way about it. I think, because these rules and regulations are in place and requirements that, okay,

if you're a male and you want to transition and compete as a female, this is, this is what has to happen. This is, these are the steps you have to take. I mean, that's, it's the best they can do right now. Right.

And I, I just don't, it's, it's so hard to come to a definitive conclusion on, on who's right, who's wrong, what's the best way to go about this. And kind of like what I said earlier was both sides are going to have to compromise. And in this idea that inclusion has to be the number one priority

and everyone, no matter how you're born, how you feel, what you identify as, there is a place for you to compete at the highest level in whatever, in whatever avenue you go down. Participation in sports is, you know, a human right. And I certainly don't want to be somebody who would prevent or bar anyone from, you know, pursuing their love of sport. And I think, you know, it's going to be interesting to kind of watch this unfold over time. And I would say to anybody who's listening to this, who is transgendered or intersex or has a very different point of view on this,

I'm open and willing to learn. Like my ideas on this are evolving. This is just kind of where I'm at right now as somebody who's barely glanced at this issue. So I don't want to assert that like I have a firm grip on this and that I have an ironclad opinion. So I don't want to assert that like, I have a firm grip on this and that, you know, I have an ironclad, you know, opinion. Like I I'm, I'm open and I want to learn more. That's, and that's like, that's the most important thing is that, you know, people, and that's, that's what's wrong with our society in general is people just like, Nope, this is the way it is. This is how I feel about it. And I'm not changing my mind. It's like, if everyone could just have an open mind and be open to, you know, different possibilities, we would get, we'd make a lot more progress than, than, than we do. The problem is I think the overwhelming majority of people are, you know,

closed minded and aren't willing to, to shift their, um, the way they view things or the way they feel about something because of their experience in, in growing up or whatever the case is. And, um. But I totally agree. I think as long as people have an open mind, we can eventually, I don't know when, but we will eventually get to a common ground where everyone feels seen and things are as fair as they can be. So I don't know. Well, here we are.

You're six weeks out from sharing this publicly. I mean, you reached out to me. You're wanting to tell this story and to share it. So I can't help but presume that there's some aspect of you that wants to be, if not a role model, like somebody who is in this conversation, in service to other people who are struggling quietly with what you had to go through. Yeah, I think I look back to myself as a 12-year-old and I wouldn't change how everything played out from when I found out until this moment sitting here with you. But I do think that a big motivation for me in telling this story and coming on this podcast

and sharing it in other, in other areas is to be a voice for, for kids, um, or, or adults who are struggling with this or struggling with any sort of identity or whatever they're going through. And that, um, there is a platform for you to be seen and to be heard and how you're born and how you feel is validated and it is legitimized. And, um, and just, you know, so much of life is just finding commonalities with people and being able to relate. And I remember the first time I met up with, um, someone for the first time knowing that they were intersex going into this meeting. Um, it was something I'll never forget. It was the most incredible experience for the first time getting to relate to someone in person that has gone through the exact same things, um, as me. So kind of taking that and putting it on a platform that obviously I can't meet every single intersex

person to ever exist. So, and not every intersex person to ever exist, we'll see this story, but the more that I can, um, share it and put light on it, hopefully the, the more corners of the world it'll reach. And, um, you don't have to be intersex to, to relate to my story. I think, I think everyone is going through something internally that, um, you know, they, or something that they feel on the inside that they don't feel like they can share or, uh, you know, talk about or, or identify with, um, this is the stories for them as well. And whatever you're feeling on the inside, it's, you know, it needs to be respected and it needs to be, um, addressed and, and you, you will always have people in your life that are, that are willing to sit down and hear you. So what is the one thing that you, you know,

want that person to hear who, who, person to hear who is dealing with this quietly? I think what I would have wanted to hear is that the way you're born is perfect. You're perfect just the way you are. We live in a society that tells us there's two genders and there's roles within those genders. And I think forget about it. Don't worry about it. You're unique. You're perfect.

And just own it. I think if someone would have told me that at 12 years old when I had just found out, I think that would have made a pretty profound impact on me. Maybe not immediately, but in time. And I think I would have been in a place where I could have dealt with this before I turned 30. But yeah, I just think that no matter what, no matter what your genetic makeup is,

no matter how you were born, you're perfect just the way you are. Well, it's interesting times right now because now we are talking about this in a way we never have historically. The subject of transgender rights because now we are talking about this in a way we never have historically. You know, the subject of transgender rights is, you know, first it's front and center. More and more people are coming out

and there's a broadening of understanding on these issues. Why do you think this is happening now? It's not like, yeah, because people didn't exist. Exactly. This has been going on the whole time, but it's only now that we're really dealing with it. Yeah, I think the world around us is getting smaller

because of social media and people are as close and as able to communicate as quickly as ever. And I think people are, are yearning for that, that sense of community and that sense of identifying with other people that are like-minded. Um, and I think that's, that's the single driving force behind this. Um, and it's funny because the person that kind of changed my, you know, kind of helped me flip my paradigm. Um, you know, I, it was like a, you know, interpersonal connection, but, um, people are, you know, reaching out to all corners of the earth, trying to find people that are like them or like-minded. And, um, you know, you go back even, even 10 years ago, 15 years ago, people weren't as connected as

they are to this day. So I think people are finding out that, oh, there are a lot of people out there that think like me, that are like me. We deserve to be seen. We deserve to be heard. And I think you're seeing people kind of grow that confidence and that sense of, I want to put myself out there. And I think that's a beautiful thing.

And I hope that it only continues. And I think it will only continue. Yeah. Well, we need more role models and people that are willing to step out into the spotlight and kind of own this in a public way. And we are seeing that slowly. Like, it's amazing. I don't know if you watch Billions.

No, I don't. You know, playing Taylor on that show. I mean, their performance in that program is, it's really a game changer. It's really quite something because you can't take your eyes off them. Like the performance is incredible. There's so much charisma and it's such a bold character in the show, a pivotal character. And to see that like writ large in a very prominent, well-received television show is not a small thing. And I think we're going to start seeing more and more of that. That's kind of my hope. It's like there's, I don't, in a major, you know, film, there's never been an intersex character. Right.

Which when that happens will be the coolest thing ever. Like I think just, just thinking about everyone that will see that and come to at least get a elementary understanding of what being intersex is. That's, that's going to be a huge day. And like you said, it is coming. I think we're, we're, you know,

hurling down this road of, of inclusion and shedding light on, on all these things that are generations, generations past have, you know, put under the rug. Right. Well, education is everything. It is. And it's like, look, intersex is a new thing for a lot of people.

It was for me. And it is important to not conflate it with the transgender community. It is a different thing. I mean, there's obviously overlap in that Venn diagram, but it's its own distinct thing. I mean, there's obviously overlap in that Venn diagram, but it's its own distinct thing. What do you think people most misunderstand about you and who you are and what you stand for? That's a really good question. I think people probably, like I'm sitting here in my entire life, I've just felt normal.

Like I just feel normal. I just feel like a human. I just feel just how I am. And I think people in the way that some of the things that they've said, they, they almost come at it from the standpoint of, wow, you must feel like an alien or something. You must feel like really different or, and I do in some areas, but I do just like, I think that's any topic in life is you know whether you're different race or different gender or whatever is you just feel you and you just feel human and normal and i think people from what i've you know conversations i've had i think people think i feel like an alien or something like from a different planet or something but

i don't i just i just feel like kendra i just feel normal and i think people um don't understand that they have this preconceived like yeah you must feel really different and it's like no i just i'm just kendra i just you know well i would imagine you feel better now like more comfortable in your own skin now because you've owned this completely you've you know communicated with your loved ones and now it's a public thing and you're standing in that, right? So there's none of that dissonance and, you know, there's no longer a secret that's like eroding, you know, your insides and all of that. Like, I would imagine there's a sense of freedom that even, you know, a couple of years ago, you couldn't access. Yeah, it was just total liberation.

That's the best way I can explain it. It's amazing just in hindsight looking back and seeing how in every aspect of my life this affected me and in areas that I didn't even realize. I mean, every single aspect of my life, this thing was looming over me. And I got really good at blocking it out and pretending it didn't exist. But subconsciously, of course you always know that it's there. And

I always just had like this, this anxiety about it, like this, this, this cloud or that I was, and I was like this, I was hiding something and, and it was almost not something that I was, you know, 24 seven every single day, you know, all parts of the day aware that I was, you know, 24 seven every single day, you know, all parts of the day aware of it was, you know, kind of subconscious, but, and, and that's just disappeared. It's just, it's gone. And that is like, everyone deserves that. And like I said, there's varying degrees of what people are going through, but I'm

sure everyone has some sort of element to something they're going through that if it, if they addressed it and let it be free, they would feel this way. And everyone deserves to feel this way. And it's just, it's almost like an out of body experience. So, um, yeah, it's, it's, it's pretty, it's, it's pretty great. And I don't want everyone to feel this way. So I have to ask you, I want to be like respectful of boundaries and I don't want to be insensitive, but I'm just curious, like this might seem frivolous, but I'm interested in how you figure out how you want to, um, portray yourself to the world. Like, do I wear a dress? Like you're wearing a black t-shirt now, but you're wearing earrings. You know, it's like, yeah, there's this mix. Like like oh or maybe like do you play around with that like how do you figure out what your aesthetic is

yeah because this is the forward facing you this is how the world receives you so i would imagine there's some intention and thought that goes into that yeah um very what you're what i'm wearing cons black jeans and a black shirt this This is pretty much all I wear. You and me both. I've got like 10 black t-shirts and that's pretty much what I wear. That's something that we have a commonality and we can relate to, which is cool, regardless of gender. Not that I identify as non-binary or whatever. Let me just say like, for me personally, like, I don't feel strongly about like that. Like I'm not like, you know,

I've so many times people have been like, okay, well, what are your pronouns? And I'm like, for me personally, I just, I, yeah, she, her, of course, but like, I don't know. I don't feel really strongly about it. And I don't know what that means or whatever I just do you feel pressure like you have to you have to be like a social justice warrior in a way that doesn't feel authentic to you exactly

couldn't have said it better all I can do is in trying to be authentic is speak to how I feel and I guess it's like not like, because my whole life I was trying so hard to put myself in a box. I think that's a part of it that now I'm like, I don't want to be put in a box. I don't like, I would never, I would never identify

as non-binary and, and, and be referred to as they, or, you know, whatever. Um, nor would I want to be called he, you know, um, but that's your prerogative. Yeah. That's the whole point. Exactly. You get to choose. Exactly. And if people feel strongly about that and they want to, and they have their pronouns, I think that's awesome. Whatever, whatever is authentic to you, do it. That's, that's my message really. Just, just be authentic, whatever that looks like. And so like for me, authentic is, is skinny jeans, black tee, and some cons that's in, if I could wear that the rest of my life, I'll be happy. So, well, you can exactly, it's a free world, right? So that's, that's, that's the goal. So where do you go from here? You're not playing golf anymore.

I think you mentioned before we started the podcast that you're doing something with Nike Golf now. Yeah, so I just accepted a position with Nike Golf last week. It's not actually fully official, but it kind of is. So hopefully. What is that doing what? So it's a brand manager role, And it's kind of a unique role in that I think, you know, they're kind of looking to bring someone on that has a different perspective

of the golf industry, the golf consumer, someone that has played at a high level. And I haven't, you know, I'm not super well-versed in the corporate world. I just never have been. My skill set is sports and I have a creative background as well. And, um, I think they were kind of looking for someone to come in and bring in and

offer a different perspective and point of view. And, um, that doesn't have that, that history of that, that corporate background. So that's kind of what you have, like some background in photography and filmmaking and a branding background as well.

Yeah, and I think that was something that was enticing to them as well. And I didn't get this opportunity because of the story, but I think, and that was kind of expressed to me, that that is something that makes my profile unique as well. So I think they're just kind of looking for someone to come in and shake things up and offer something, something different. So I'm really excited about it.

And like I said, I was a Nike athlete when I was on tour. I played when they were still making golf clubs, played Nike clubs in college and went to the U of O, which is of course where it started. And so I've kind of been kind of been hand in hand with, with Nike for my whole life. So,

and, and how do you think about this, you know, evolving role as you think about this evolving role as you as this sort of mouthpiece spokesperson role model? I would imagine you're getting opportunities. People are wanting you to come and speak. Yeah, I think that's something that's on my radar.

It's tough for me because I think, yeah, I think you made this point earlier was people are looking to me to have an opinion and have an official stance and feel very strongly, you know, very much one way, but in a funny way, it's like,

I'm almost coming out from the standpoint of, I don't necessarily want to be black and white on this issue because we live in a, in a, in a world where there is so much gray area. And maybe that's kind of a cop out. Thematically, no, it's perfect because you're not like, your whole thing is like defying this duality

in being non-binary. Like, so how could you be binary on the issue? Like it's part and parcel of your. It is, I know. There are so many like metaphors and just like contradictions. You are literally gray, so your perspective is gray. Yeah, exactly. I couldn't have said it any better.

Well, that doesn't work for people, though. They want you to like, we want you to come speak, but here's the line we want you to toe. And that's kind of how culture is functioning right now in a not good way. 100%. So that's, yeah, going forward, I think I do want to be someone that is looked to to offer a perspective on what I've been through in my life. And like I said, I think I obviously want people who were born intersex that may be going through something similar that I did to look at the story and find solace and feel validated. that I did to look at the story and find solace and feel validated. I also want it to relate to people who are just going through anything in

general that they feel like they can't talk about or can't live out. So you're not going to, you're not going to see me in rallies protesting in front of courthouses and stuff like that. That's just not who I am, you know, to my core, like from a standpoint of being authentic. But my whole thing is just inclusion. And I will continue to talk about inclusion wherever this takes me

and whatever platform I have. Inclusion and compassion, that's really the two main things for me. And how's the dating going? Come on. I have to ask oh my you don't have to answer wow on the spot um not you could just say fine or or not or whatever not not well answer no i'll just be honest i mean i think my life has been has been crazy in the last in the last six weeks and um and it you know basically when this process started back in december um i really just secluded myself from the world yeah daniel can probably talk to me you know just ghosting and just not being available to hang out and it was such a it was such a weird time going from december until july

from when it came out just almost feeling almost feeling like because this was going on and I was going to be hanging out with people that I wanted to tell but I couldn't or didn't know if I should, I did kind of seclude myself. And I think a lot of this in coming out in the last few weeks and moving forward here in the near future is opening myself to people, whether it's friendship, relationship, whatever. Of, of course I want that. I think, you know, everyone, everyone wants that. But, um, and I think when you do open yourself to that, the universe kind of, you know,

provides that. Um, and so that's, that's what I'm hoping at least. That's what I tell myself. Well, I'm excited for, excited for what's to become with you I think your story is super powerful it's important it was very courageous of you to own it and come out in the way that you did and I really appreciate you sharing it with me today and I think it's going to be

a beacon of light and hope for a lot of people out there so in closing are there any resources that come to mind? Like if somebody is listening to this and, and, and they're relating to you, but they feel alone, like, are there therapeutic resources? Are there certain websites that you know of that I can put in the, in the show notes or that you can mention now where people can go out and learn more? Yeah. If you just, if you use Google interact, um, that's, that's a huge resource that was actually,

I was made aware of a few months ago, but in, in the story coming out, people from interact reached out and said, Hey, like, just want to introduce ourselves. Like we have, uh, we have cells, you know, kind of all over the country. We have a cell in Portland that, you know, a community where you can reach out and you can, you know, connect with other intersex people. Um, I think that's, that's the, the one for sure. Uh, so you can just Google that. That'll kind of find wherever you're located.

It should have resources there to provide. And if people want to connect with you, what's the best way? Just Instagram, Twitter, at Kendra underscore lit. L-I-T-T. L-I-T-T, yeah. Two Ts. There's a few Kendra Littles out there. Okay, real quick.

There's like a software engineer and there's a designer. Funny story. It pops up when you Google you. Another Kendra Little reached out to me after she saw my story, and she was like, hey, never heard of you. This story's amazing, whatever. I was like, oh, cool. Two weeks later, I'm looking at her Twitter profile again.

She lives in Portland. No way. Yes. And I tweeted her. I was like, wait, how did I miss that you're in portland as well so i i don't know do you know many kendras in your life like let alone kendra little that is pretty crazy so she's in portland so maybe we're talking about getting coffee so all right okay your folks okay yeah they're happy yeah they're great yeah they're actually moving back down to eugene which is

which obviously where i grew up and my sister just is popping out babies. So my mom's going to be in heaven down there helping raise those. So yeah, everything is moving in a positive direction. Cool. Well, everybody listening, check out the video, the Undefeated video. I'll put a link in the show notes to that. Or Uninterrupted. Why did I say Undefeated?

Uninterrupted. Undefeated is a sneaker store. Uninterrupted. I'll put the link in the show notes to that. Or uninterrupted. Why did I say undefeated? Uninterrupted. Undefeated is a sneaker store. Uninterrupted. I'll put the link in the show notes to that. Everybody should watch that and come back and talk to me again sometime. Thanks so much for having me on. Super grateful. Appreciate it.

How do you feel? You feel okay? Awesome. Good. Amazing. We did it, right? Yeah, we did it. It was cool.

Yeah. All right. Peace. Thank you so much. Let's. What an incredible, beautiful being you are, Kendra. Thank you for trusting me with helping tell your story. I hope that you guys enjoyed that or touched by that.

I think it's really powerful. For more on Kendra, please check out the show notes on the episode page at richroll.com. Watch Becoming More. I'll put a link up to that as well. Her little mini doc produced by Uninterrupted. And let her know how this one landed for you by sharing your thoughts with her directly on Twitter and Instagram at

Kendra underscore lit, L-I-T-T. If you'd like to support the work we do here on the show, subscribe, rate, and comment on the program on Apple Podcasts. That really helps with discovery, getting new people on board with what we're doing here tell your friends about your favorite episode share the show on social media subscribe to my YouTube channel find the show and subscribe on Spotify Google Podcasts, wherever you listen to this and you can support us on Patreon at richroll.com

forward slash donate I want to thank everybody who helped put on the show today Jason Camiello for audio engineering production, show notes, interstitial music Blake Curtis and Margo Lubin for their video genius Jessica Miranda for graphics who helped put on the show today. Jason Camiello for audio engineering, production, show notes, interstitial music. Blake Curtis and Margo Lubin for their video genius. Jessica Miranda for graphics. Allie Rogers for portraits.

DK for advertiser relationships. And as always, theme music by Annalema. Appreciate all of you guys. I don't take your attention for granted. I can't do this without you. So thank you for all the love. And I will see you back here next week with our best of 2019. Until then, be you. So thank you for all the love. And I will see you back here next week with our best of 2019. Until then, be you, because we all need all of you to be more of who you truly are. Peace. Thank you.