The Rich Roll Podcast - Knox Robinson on The Divided States of America

Episode Date: June 22, 2020

 Against the backdrop of a global pandemic has emerged the most powerful civil rights movement of our lifetime -- an irrefutably historic moment that will indelibly shape the economic, political, and social fabric of our country for decades to come. To help us untangle the rhetoric behind our country's supercharged division, today Knox Robinson joins the podcast. Returning for his second appearance on the show (RRP #394 rests among my all time favorite episodes), Knox is a writer, athlete, national caliber runner, eponymous curator of running culture, and an astute student of black history, art, literature, music and poetry. Formally commencing under the tutelage Poet Laureate Maya Angelou at Wake Forest University, Knox's education has continued throughout the many chapters of his life. As a spoken word artist and music manager. As editor-in-chief of Fader magazine. And more recently as co-founder and captain of Black Roses NYC -- a diverse collective of running enthusiasts who routinely gather to hammer out intervals across Brooklyn & downtown Manhattan. Put plainly, urban culture is Knox's lifeblood. One of the most interesting and multi-faceted humans I have ever met, today Knox shares an important perspective on America's crossroads.  This is an investigation into the culture shifts caused by the pandemic and protests alike.  It's a conversation about the intersection of sport, politics and civil rights. Black American representation in athletics. And where we go from here. It's also about virtue signaling. Performative allyship. And why reading White Fragility simply isn’t enough.  But more than anything, this is a conversation about the power and poetics of running. Running as metaphor. Running as an act of rebellion — and the disturbing symbolism behind Ahmaud Arbery’s murder.  I left this exchange better for having had it.  The visually inclined can watch our conversation on YouTube. And as always, the audio version streams wild and free on Apple Podcasts and Spotify. This is a special conversation. I'm better for having had it. I hope you will be similarly impacted. Peace + Plants, Rich

This is our chance to see beyond the speeches that politicians are making. This is our chance to think a little bit beyond what our mainstream media is telling us. And what does it mean for us? And strangely, this opportunity has been a reset on so many levels, but it's been a reset on my mindfulness practice. a reset on so many levels, but it's been a reset on like my mindfulness practice. And going back to the beginnings of that, and then just thinking about the ways in which a mindfulness practice helps us just think of things more clearly, taking pause and thinking how other people might feel is not only one of the calls to action for this moment that hopefully will go forward,

but I think that that's like the work we need to do now. So, you know, really think, how do I make space for other people? How do I make other people feel comfortable? Like, how do we create a more just space in our communities? That's Knox Robinson, and this is the Rich Roll Podcast. The Rich Roll Podcast. What is up, people? Rich Roll here. Welcome to the podcast. What is up, people? Rich Roll here. Welcome to the podcast. Okay, so as we find ourselves amidst a global pandemic and the most powerful civil rights movement of my lifetime, despite our differences, which concerningly seem to be expanding,

I think we can nonetheless all agree that this moment, how we respond to it, how we navigate through it, how we grow from it, how we educate ourselves because of it, will indelibly shape the economic, the political, and the social fabric of our country for many years to come, hopefully for the better. And so to help us untangle the rhetoric behind the supercharged division we are experiencing, I reached out to my friend Knox Robinson, who traveled all the way from Mexico, God bless him, to share his perspective with me and all of you guys today,

which is pretty awesome. Returning for his second appearance on the show, his first was two the show, his first was two years ago, episode 394, one of my all-time favorites, I should mention. I urge all of you to check it out if you missed it the first time around. Knox is a writer, he's an athlete, he's an accomplished national caliber runner, an eponymous curator of said running culture, an eponymous curator of said running culture, and an astute student of black history, art, literature, music, and poetry. And it's an education that formally began for Knox with his tutelage under Maya Angelou at Wake Forest University, and has continued throughout the many

chapters of his life as a spoken word artist, as a music manager, as editor-in-chief of Fader magazine, and more recently as co-founder and captain of Black Roses NYC, a diverse collective of running enthusiasts who routinely gather to hammer out intervals across Brooklyn and downtown Manhattan, a moving emblem of New York City's running street culture. Knox is among the most interesting and multifaceted humans I've ever met, someone for whom urban culture is lifeblood, and I think an important voice in and perspective on this moment that America is currently experiencing. As usual, I've got a few more important things to mention about Knox in the conversation to come, but first...

Knox and the conversation to come. But first, we're brought to you today by recovery.com. I've been in recovery for a long time. It's not hyperbolic to say that I owe everything good in my life to sobriety. And it all began with treatment and experience that I had that quite literally saved my life. And in the many years since, I've in turn helped many suffering addicts and their loved ones find treatment. And with that, I know all too well just how confusing and how overwhelming and how challenging it can be to find the right place and the right level of care. Especially because, unfortunately, not all treatment resources adhere to ethical practices. It's a real problem, a problem I'm now happy and proud to share has been solved by the people at recovery.com, who created an online support portal designed to guide, to support, and empower you

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Their support makes this show possible, so I appreciate it. Today's exchange is not only a check-in with Knox, who, as I mentioned, is currently residing in Mexico City. It's also an investigation into the culture shifts caused by the pandemic and protests alike. It's about virtue signaling and performative allyship and why reading white fragility simply isn't enough. It's a deep dive into black America representation in athletics. But more than anything, this is about the poetics of running, running as a metaphor, running as an act of rebellion and the disturbing symbolism behind Ahmaud Arbery's murder. I left this exchange better for having had it. I really appreciate Knox's perspective. This one is special. I think you guys are going to really dig it. So without further ado,

Knox Robinson, everyone. Knox, delighted to have you here. Thank you for traveling many miles to be with me today, man. For sure, of course. So you've been holed up in Mexico City for what, like nine weeks or something like that at this point? Yeah, it's felt like, obviously considering everything, it's felt like a lifetime. So yeah, I've been out there for three months, maybe a little over three months. It's been wild.

I thought originally that you were down there for some kind of event or professional reason, but that's not the case, right? You went there when things started to get hairy in New York and kind of escaped purposefully. Yeah, exactly. No, I mean, I had been kind of watching the news since the end of last year. You're just kind of as a vague conspiracy theorist, you're always just kind of seeing,

or an engaged citizen, you're kind of just seeing the chatter and focus on things. And as it just started to spiral out of control, I was just thinking about on a couple levels like the practicalities of my own personal life. I have a small daughter, and if the school shut down, my son, he's 16, what was that going to be like? And then what would the social situation be like in New York on an infrastructural level? So I was thinking about that. And then also, once you just started matching up the lack of cohesion from the national, state, and local level in New York, the triumvirate of Trump, Cuomo, and de Blasio, it was kind of weird. Time to fly.

Why Mexico City, though? Why not? I mean, Mexico City is such an incredible place. I've been spending so much time there more and more. And in addition to being like empirically great conditions, 8,000 feet altitude or 7,700 feet altitude, rich culture and history, It just seemed livable. And so I went down there with my partner and our daughter and have stayed for a while.

Right. So she's like three, right? Your daughter. Yeah. I've only been to Mexico City once. It was for a Runner's World event. And it took place at a college campus that's in that newer part of town. I don't know what it's called, where there's like lots of fancy skyscrapers and things like that. And my only experience with like the older part of the city was just touring very quickly over the course of an afternoon. But that's kind of where you're living, right? Like you're living right in the center. Yeah. Well, I'm living in, um, in Quayacan, which is, um, you know, an incredibly cultural rich neighborhood because that's where like Frida Kahlo and, and, uh, Diego Rivera had lived and had their studio. Um, it's interesting. Um,

there's a big, the, the Whitney museum had a huge show about Mexican muralists right before the pandemic closed things. And one of Rivera's contemporaries, Jose Clemente Orozco was also included in the show. I'm staying at his place. Oh, wow. So, you know, my daughter's sleeping on this bed underneath like his sketches. It's steeped in art and history. Yeah, except she's three.

Yeah, but the osmosis of that. Well, yeah, but the result is she's been like devastating the historic building with crayons. Like I looked under the table the other day and there's a whole, under his mural sketch is like a huge mural with her crayon ruining this like historic building. Like I haven't told the owner yet, but when I move out, like the bill is going to be insane. You got to respect like the young mind though, like with no reverence for, you know, the legacy that precedes it. Yeah, I guess.

Time for her imprint on that. That sounds cool. But I mean, I wish she could have been an accountant and just like with an advocate because they're doing something less impactful. When it comes time to get the security deposit back. It's a wrap on that. Right. What is Mexico City's response to the pandemic been? How does

that compare to what's going on in America? Yeah. I mean, obviously it's been called out in major media as problematic. But again, our news sources, our mainstream media news sources aren't necessarily trustworthy. And so the head of state response from AMLO on down has been a little sketchy. But I was reading kind of some information when I went down there for the first time. some information when I went down there for the first time and he was just kind of saying, and the response was saying like, we know that like humans aren't going to be able to social distance like ad infinitum. There's going to be like a capacity and once bandwidth has exceeded, people are just going to rebel against whatever structure. So they were playing that heavy calculus of waiting for things to peak and crest and then apply like heavy social distancing,

whereas like another kind of method would be imposed social distancing early on. More prophylactically. Yeah, exactly. But again, that comes with, you know, in cultures where they may not even have like the same concepts of social liberties or Or civil liberties, rather. In terms of Mexican joy of living, the social liberties are pretty chill. So I think he was just saying like, listen, this is Mexico. We have a huge sort of like day labor force

and public transport and mass populace moving around. But also people are chill. So they ain't really going for like social distancing strictures. And now as you see, whether it's like New York or Arizona, once people kind of like were over it, they were over it. And I think that even today, we may be on the wrong side of history with this conversation, but even in this moment, conversation. But even in this moment, the kind of like, you know, understanding of those things has been shifting. I mean, for me personally, I've been in lockdown. My partner is definitely like by the book social distancing. So we haven't been kind of like flaunting any conventions and

stuff like that. I've definitely been tortured with a three-year-old. I think we're not going to be able to really be able to evaluate properly which protocol and strategy was best for another 18 to 24 months. Like this is just a huge experiment in progress and we're seeing different cities apply different measures. Now we're seeing the spikes

as a result of all the protesting and all of that. We're comparing that to the way things are being done in Sweden and the goalposts just continue to move and the information that we're getting from supposedly vetted sources continues to change. And I think it creates a lot of confusion. And you butt that up against people

just getting fatigued of staying at home and they're like, fuck it. And with the protests, it's sort of like the floodgates opened and now it's very hard to go back. You know, we're like, well, we kind of did that. Like we're out in the world now. You know, I've noticed in my own behavior,

just, you know, I picked you up at the hotel, we hugged, you know, we went and did an antibody test just before the podcast, we're both negative. But, you know, I probably wouldn't have done that like two weeks ago. podcast, we're both negative. But I probably wouldn't have done that like two weeks ago. Sure. We wouldn't be sitting here like two weeks ago, right? And who knows what's right or wrong? Like we're all just figuring out as we go, this is just like a huge Petri dish in motion at the moment. And it's interesting that you chose Mexico. It's like, I'm going to leave New York and I'm going to go to the most population dense city in the world for the pandemic.

Interesting choice. Yeah. I mean, that's, I mean, I guess if anything, that just shows you how dire like my own kind of prescription for New York was going to be. I mean, like, you know, I definitely. But I can't see you being able to exist anywhere for any long period of time without some significant urban culture, because that's your lifeblood. But yeah, you got to carry it around with you. So I'm definitely like, you know, trapping out a little bit. I mean, when I think about the things that I wish I would have brought with me when I like ran out with like a duffel bag, I did bring like

the USB speaker. So it's just been, if anything, an incredible time to go back and like dig into so much culture, dig into so much music and yeah, go back to like all the things that, you know, you weren't really able to unlock in the fast paced life that we were living up until very recently. Yeah. You know, this is this moment of forced repose where we're all being given an opportunity to take inventory of our lives, what's working, what's not. And I myself have been trying to take advantage of that. Like the idea that we're just going to return to normal I think would be tragic. Like here is this moment where we can really think more deeply and more profoundly about what we want our lives and culture and society to look like.

about what we want our lives and culture and society to look like, layered on top of that with everything that we're gonna get into, makes this all the more exigent in terms of, evaluating our systems and our individual behavior. For sure. So let's get into it. I mean, I think, as I was thinking about having you on,

I thought, man, everything that's happening across America right now is so relevant to Knox's vortex of interest. It must be weird for you to be in Mexico City and be more of an observer of what's happening rather than a participant, because you've been talking about this stuff your whole life, right? And now here we are in this unprecedented historic moment and you're in a completely different country. Yeah. I mean, definitely that double consciousness of being a black American that happens all the time, Michelle Obama said, Barack Obama can get killed going to the gas station. So, um, although I definitely have been thinking about all these ideas and living through these ideas my whole life and experiencing sort of these, these, you know, kind of cultural waves my whole life. At the same time, I was thinking about like what the actual social situation was going to be like in lockdown

in New York as like a black man in America. And that's when I was like, I, I'm not here for that because I know me going down the street. That's just like, that's just too dicey. If you got caught out and there's a curfew, you being a black man just puts you at a greater risk than. I'm just not. Yeah. I'm just not like, I'm not a stay-at-home black man. I already know I'm going to break that rule. I'm just saying, I just know that it's just not going to be that. So I was like, let me take myself out of that situation before I find myself in that situation. And again, none of us

knew that the world was going to like spiral in this way, but I just, it's been amazing to see it from a distance. And then also when you think about the interaction with Mexican culture and black American culture over 500 years, it's super fascinating. So for me, I mean, I'm thinking about like John Carlos and Tommy Smith every day. I'm thinking about Mexico City, 1968 Olympics every day. So if we're thinking about Colin Kaepernick and if we're thinking about Minneapolis, then I'm also thinking about the events of 1968 in Mexico City. Yeah, it is interesting how this has brought that into the forefront of consciousness again. And we're seeing those images of those guys. And we're having discussions about what happened to them in the wake of raising their fist on the podium in 68.

And how their lives really were never the same after that. Sure. What's also interesting, though, is how they got to that point, you know? And I've really been profoundly affected by this book called The Revolt of the Black Athlete by Dr. Harry Edwards. I haven't heard of that. It's incredible. But he was the architect that worked with students

organizing in the mid-60s around San Jose State, I guess. And these are the athletes that ended up on the Olympic team. You know, this is the guy who has been in Kaepernick's ear and really kind of like given him a lot of the political support for his kneeling protests. And also, I guess it was the University of Minnesota football team that had a boycott and a protest just several years ago. So this one individual has been kind of like situating black American athletics and athletes in the context of

political realities for since the mid 60s, since the early 60s. When did he write that book? In the early 60s. No, I write that book? In the early 60s. No, I think it might have been a reflection on the events of 68, and then he's needed to update it too. So a new edition came out in the past year or so. That's super fascinating. It's kind of getting a second buzz now because if you saw that Soderbergh film, High Flying Bird.

I did, yeah. So that's the thing that's going through in the Manila envelope. It's that book. That's the book he's reading at the end, The Revolt of the Black Athletes. So I saw that film. That was incredible. Soderbergh filmed that all on a phone, right? On an iPhone, shot the whole thing. He had been out of the game. He was not...

He didn't get enough cred for that movie. That was an incredible movie. If that movie came out right now, it would blow up. Yeah, and it just came out. I mean, so yeah, everybody go see that film because it's super incredible. And then, yeah, the book that is revealed at the end is The Revolt of the Black Athlete by Dr. Harry Edwards. Meanwhile, How to Be an Anti-Racist, I think, is number one on the New York Times bestseller list this week. Yeah, the whole bestseller list is like white fragility books.

I know. Sea change for those writers. Fueled in part by a genuine desire to learn and expand our awareness, I think, and also fueled in part by white guilt, I suppose. I'm glad you said it, because there's certain things that you can say that I can't. Because I read that and I was like, man, white people sure love to buy books that they don't ever read. Because I was like – that whole list was like white fragility and I was like – it's funny. Black folks like – we have – we see white folks, right?

I may be invisible. I may be the invisible man, but like black folks have always had a purview. You're not invisible, especially with that hair, dude. Come on. See this. No, but it's funny to like go on to not message boards. Those are scary. But like even in the comment section on social media, on Instagram, and see white people talking to each other is like real comedy.

It's just like get some popcorn. And just to read like white comments with each other are real crazy. So the amount of performativity that's going on with white people, when like a white person posts a fragility book, the comments are like, I got that book. I can't wait to start it this Saturday. And I'm like, wow, every white person is about to examine their fragility every future Saturday. It's a weird thing that I think is new

for a lot of white people that you guys have been living in forever. There's a lot of performance virtue signaling out there for sure, but also a tremendous amount of white fragility. And this is new to me. I posted, I did a podcast I put up a couple of days ago with my friend Adam Skolnick, who's white Jewish guy.

And it was more of just a discussion about what's going on right now. And I posted a clip from that on Instagram and it has like, you know, 390 comments. And scrolling through that was an awakening, my friend, you know, an awakening. All over the map, my friend, Dom Thompson, black dude, friend of mine, he chimed in on it. He's like, man, there's so much white fragility in this comment section. And then he got like 41 comments underneath that.

Right, just off that. He's just on the side like, man. And everyone's like. A lot of like repressed rage, a lot of cheerleading, like all over the place. And it was very disorienting for me as somebody who doesn't court controversy and as somebody who feels like I'm talking common sense to realize that we really are divided as a country. And there's a plethora of perspectives on this issue, and it's all so supercharged at the moment. That makes me afraid of our ability to move forward. We can talk about optimism as we get into this, but that's been an education for me. And I think as a white dude, trying to figure out how to communicate around this is tricky too. We were talking about this on the ride over here.

Knowing, feeling strongly that I don't want to be silent and I want to be part of positive change. Also being sensitive that it's really not my place to, you know, lead the charge at all. You know, like I want to participate, but also being very conscious that this is not my movement, but also conscious that this is a problem that whites need to solve. Like black people are fine. You know, it's like, it's the white people that have to figure their shit out here. And that was what the clip was about. It's like, this is a white problem

and that was inflammatory for a lot of people. So like, how do you think about this? Like, help me out here, man. Yeah. Well, I'm still like laughing about the, you know, I'm still laughing about the white fragility reading lists. Maybe it's just that, like you said, black people have always known it.

And I'm looking at all these authors who are writing the book. I was like, why are you telling people about white fragility? That's the one thing we had on them that was making it tolerable. But, man, it's disorienting all the way around in this moment. That's for sure. I mean, on one hand, it's a wide problem, but it's our common culture. Sure. So if we all in our country, so whether we're thinking about these divided states of America or we're thinking about what our culture, our common

culture means on a numinal way in the course of human history over the past 401 years, then yeah, we all do have a stake in it. Yeah. And that's what's weird about the tension about we're so divided. It's weird how evenly we're divided, even though there's all these subcultures and there may be minorities or whatever. It's really electorally split like 53, 47, 51, 49 on any given day, like on so many issues, you know? And that kind of push me, pull you is really what it feels like a battle for hearts and minds. And really, I think what we're seeing like play out in real time in the comment section. I mean,

it's funny right now on social media, it's not even the content you post, no offense to you. Good content's great. But like, it's really the works in the comments section. Sure. Yeah, that's where you break out the popcorn. That's where you monetize. Like brands are like, what's going on in there, man? Can I sponsor comments? Well, just to be clear, so there's this false dichotomy. You see this rift, like people say Black Lives Matter, and then you have a contingent of people who say all lives matter. Right. And I think we're getting better at understanding what that's all about. Yeah.

But to say, is it analogous or not to say this is a white problem versus this is a human problem? Are those two things like black lives matter, all lives matter, white problem, problem of humanity? Like how do those things line up? Well, these are all like tags, right? These are all like linguistic cues that kind of redirect the listener's attention. So if- They're dog whistles. Right, yeah.

In their respective ways. Yeah. Right. And not necessarily laden with the image, the energy of dog whistles that say the president uses, but in terms of the frequency that certain people pick up, it's definitely a valid idea. So when you're thinking about what might constitute a white problem, I mean, you know, if white people got a problem, everybody got a problem. But redirecting the attention to white people to own it or to have ownership of it and to, again, work at solving it, work on dismantling the problem, that's like an interesting redirect. That's a crucial redirect. Like in an empathetic view, obviously like black people's problem is everybody's problem.

But the way it's set up, if you kind of like personalize it just to black folks, then you're going to like lose out on a lot of people feeling invested in or having even any agency. I mean, that's, that's what's weird. I mean, whether like, whether there's like social justice warriors or people who are like recalcitrant and don't really want to like engage with these issues at all. There has been like a real, like neck-snappingly swift realization it feels like on the part of a lot of white people to like jump into this head-on you know what i mean and it might be is that wrong-headed or even if it's well-intentioned or no i mean no i mean well-intentioned like at this point we're taking it you know what mean? But like how are we challenging? Sure. And channeling it in a way that's kind of like moving forward.

You know, like everybody loves moonshots, you know, but moonshots don't really exist, right? It's really the progress of incremental gains, marginal gains that really brings us progress. But this situation right here might be one of those once-in-a-lifetime moonshots. Yeah. Where people are really being accelerated through so much. There is that sense that we have an opening now that we haven't seen in our lifetimes. Yeah. that we have an opening now that we haven't seen in our lifetimes.

And I think it would be tragic if we weren't able to figure out how to put that energy into the right avenue to make those changes. And I think part of it is, my learning curve here has been really trying to understand the systemic aspect of this. I went and rewatched 13th the other night with my family.

And it's just so powerful. Like it really contextualizes and explains and analyzes the systemic nature of this in a way that makes it impossible to avert your glance. When you look at ALEC and the CCA and the way that the prison infrastructure is set up and the lobbying efforts and our whole political system being geared towards, you know,

these tectonic plates moving such that black people are disproportionately incarcerated and penalized, it's impossible to not understand that we need, you know, ground up change, like really fundamental systemic changes in how we're operating. Yeah. And that has to, that has to be a conversation. I mean, like there's, you know, it's great to have an electoral focus, but that process is fraught, obviously, as the last presidential, several presidential elections has shown.

But also, you know, there needs to be a community conversation, you know, rather than these things are hot button issues that are going to get resolved at a city council Zoom meeting. You know, there needs to be sort of like a real simpatico energy where everybody is sort of conversing in these ideas for starters, you know? But I feel like that's happening. Yeah. Yeah. So then what's the next step? Like, how do we, so we're having the conversation. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, so we're having the conversation and, you know, it's wild. I mean, it's already, things are so accelerated that right now, like downtown Seattle is like an autonomous zone. I know.

And people are on flat bottom boats on Lake Havasu, just doing donuts, living their life. So the next step remains to be seen. life. So the next step remains to be seen. But I've really kind of surprisingly just going back to older models and I'm finding those are really resonating. So it's interesting to think about- By older, what do you mean by older models? It's interesting to see what people are saying in the 60s and 70s. And we've kind of glamorized these figures and made them into posters and T-shirts and biopics. But going back and what were the Panthers talking about? Going back and really looking like what was the social flux of the 60s and 70s trying to push forward and those things, how do they get lost in the late 70s and 80s and what are all those forces? So, you know, there are some new models of being

right now, but I think that there's also a lot to kind of uncover and rediscover in what was kind of set down a couple of generations ago. Yeah. That was the other thing about 13th that made me, you know, made me realize that there's quite a bit of generations ago. Yeah. That was the other thing about 13th that made me, you know, made me realize that there's quite a bit of revisionist history when it comes to the Panthers and Angela Davis and Malcolm X and even Martin Luther King. Like what we're taught in school or led to believe and understand isn't quite the reality of how that all went down. Yeah. I mean, and why not, right? I mean, if we were choosing between Barack Obama and a guy who in 1982 or 1983 voted against the establishment of Martin Luther King Jr.

as a holiday when he was Senator of Arizona, that was just a couple of decades ago, and rest in peace John McCain. But it really is interesting that we don't even have a clear picture of King, and he's got a statue and stamps. So definitely understanding King's legacy and Malcolm X's legacy and the legacy of the Panthers. I mean, it's amazing to see Angela Davis so active. Right. I mean, I'm looking on Instagram and she's like every other post.

She's everywhere. I was like, sis, hydrate. Yeah, yeah. She's probably your 230 slide. I mean, that scene in 13th when she comes into the courtroom with her big afro. Yeah. And like, it's just, it's so powerful. Yeah.

You know? Yeah. You know? Yeah. I mean really – and maybe I'll keep redirecting the convo to talk about people's reading lists. But you could just have like a reading list of the women, you know, like women in the early 70s, black women in the early 70s who are coming out of the Panther movement. You know what I mean? So we know Angela Davis, but I mean Assata Shakur's autobiography is essential reading. Elaine Brown, you know, Erica Huggins, like all these, Kathleen Cleaver, all these incredibly storied women and had wildly rich lives,

whether, you know, they were, you know, political actors or militants or freedom fighters who are still around today. Super fascinating. So we could just reset the whole New York Times list right now and put like Assata's biography at the top. Well, give me a reading list. I'll put it in the show notes. Okay. okay, for sure. When you were first on the podcast, that was like a couple of years ago, two years ago, we went through your whole story and people who are newer to the show, I encourage you to go back and listen to that.

I thought that was a really great conversation. But one of the seminal kind of moments in your life was being a student under Maya Angelou. And you told these beautiful stories about what that experience was like. I'm curious, I would suspect that her words and her kind of, I don't know if mentorship is too strong a word, but her presence in your life must, you know, be percolating to the surface right now. Yeah. Yeah. I think about it all the time. And she was such a heavy presence that I wish it was different.

You know what I mean? I wish like, you know, you can't choose your mentors. You can't choose your mentors, you know? You wish you'd shown up for that dinner at her house. Oh, gosh. I mean, I just, you know, like, it's interesting to think that she gave the inaugural this presence on the National Mall that cold morning in January of, I guess, 93. I mean, I remember reading that poem on the pulse of morning as a high school student. And I guess at that time I thought I was going to

study at Wake Forest University, but I wasn't really putting the pieces together. And so now even that poem, On the Pulse of Mourning, I've kind of gone back and like started to unpack it. And it is very like 90s identity politics and diversity and bringing people together. And if you have any sort of like hand-wringing ambivalence about that now, If you have any sort of like hand-wringing ambivalence about that now, maybe it's just the result of how hardened we've become recently and how bitter and sour we've become. If we're kind of reading these things and be like, what is she talking about? Maybe it's actually worthy of a second look, you know, because really Dr. Angela was just a vessel of so many experiences and so many voices, you know, I was reflecting recently

talking to somebody about it and they say John Milton was the last person to have ever read anything on the planet. I mean, read, have read everything. Yeah, everything that had been written. And, you know, I'm like, right, bro. You weren't in the libraries at Timbuktu. But, you know, as far as a white guy, he had read what white people had put down. I dig it. That's what Dr. Angela was like, though. She was just like carried within her, I guess, as the phrasing goes, multitudes, you know,

I guess, as Wordsworth would say,itudes, you know, I guess as Wordsworth would say, like, you know, she really had that and it was just like spilling out of her ideally at every occasion. So yeah, I'm definitely thinking about her and her legacy at this time. Yeah. Who are the poets right now that you think are speaking to culture in a profound way? You know, honestly, quarantine's been an amazing time to reflect on that. And, you know, there's this poet, I'm a writer, you know, so you're envious of other writers. But those are just my own appetites. But there's this person, Dane Smith, who has written this incredible book called Homie. As I was leaving the house from Brooklyn to go to Mexico City, I took four or five books with me.

And this writer is not only putting down some really lacerating poetry early on in their career, but they're in Minneapolis, like they're from Minneapolis. And so Dane Smith is like walking around Minneapolis, kind of like document on day one. I was like, wait, my favorite poet, like the most essential poet, you know, working right now is on of coming out of a Latin American tradition or like a black American tradition. It's not just, I'm graduating from an MFA program and I'm like writing my carefully sculpted verses over here in my care department at an artist colony. But, you know, I'm an omnivore and I'm working on poetry and essays and book reviews. And, you know, I mean, we know Langston Hughes is a poet. But if you think about the buddy flick of Langston Hughes and Zora Neale Hurston driving around the American South, writing stories of like regular people's lives and filing them as dispatches to gazettes back up in the north.

That's kind of like, you know, that's the work of a writer, you know? And so to think that an incredible poet is there active on the ground, you know, kind of documenting the wildness in Minneapolis is incredible. Yeah. As a writer yourself, have you been putting your thoughts down? Like how are you approaching this as a creative person? Yeah. It's tough because you really want to open your aperture like as wide as you can and just record everything and remember everything. I guess almost in the way that you think like the earliest cameras

operated before, before it was like a microchip thing. If you kind of just think about the actual crude mechanics of a light box, capturing an image and preserving it on film or paper, you know, is, is sort of like what the work of a writer is. Um, but especially in the wake of the Ahmaud Arbery killing, it's rather poignantly reset for me, my own relationship with writing, my own responsibility with writing. And so, yeah, I've really been doing personal work thinking about the murder of Ahmaud Arbery, um, specifically as a runner that was so impactful to, to so many of us, obviously in running culture, but obviously, uh, around the world. But, um, yeah, it's something I can't shake. And so I've been doing a lot of writing, like poetry actually, or just writing around that to think long-term, like what would I have to share and contribute that would sort of connect with that guy's life?

Yeah. Well, let's talk about Ahmaud. I mean, that one is of particular pertinence because you're a runner, right? Yeah. of particular pertinence because you're a runner, right? And I read this article that was in Runner's World recently where you were quoted and you said, in some ways I can't escape the sense that Ahmaud Arbery was killed because he was running, because he was that literal embodiment of our freedom

that's obviously still so threatening to many people in this country. Yeah, I mean, I'll love to be wrong. I'll love to kind of like meditate that idea away or like age that idea away or write that idea away. But I can't shake it. And, you know, sit back and watch this trial, these trials, and see what happens over the course of

due process. But I just can't stop thinking about the dramaturgy or the, the theatrical, the staging of, of those last minutes, you know? Um, and I think what it was when the video first came out obviously it's devastating to watch but you know the work is to expand your aperture so like how much can you take

in how much can you hold it's not just about Milton and Dr. Angela reading a bunch of books but like how much can you hold? It's not just about Milton and Dr. Angela reading a bunch of books, but how much can you actually hold? I've been black my whole life, and I'm well familiar with extrajudicial killings of black American men in the United States. black American men in the United States, I was seeing a runner and I can't, I can't get over like the way his body moved as a runner on that film in the last moments. It's something that like, I think every runner relates to, right? Um, if you have a body, you're a runner. And so if you're a runner, then you're relating to Ahmaud Arbery because it just looked like he was trying to continue running.

You know when you're going down the sidewalk and someone's not paying attention with their Datsun or someone's veering and you're just kind of like, you're focused on completing your run. You're just like that. I just can't stop replaying that image of him just at those last moments when he just goes to the right, I just, the way his hips cut and the knees. And I was like, wow, that's my body, you know? Um, and, um, I'm kind of been exploring that and writing around that and kind of thinking about starting there

and then moving out to think about the messages that his life and his legacy kind of hold for us. I've said this before, but as a runner myself, I've run in tons of cities all over the world. Never once has it ever occurred to me that I might be in jeopardy or that my life might be threatened by strapping on a pair of running shoes and leaving whatever hotel I'm in to go explore a city I've never been in before. But as a black American and as a runner, and also as somebody who's incredibly well-traveled, you've been all over the world, you have this incredible life where you get to spread the culture of running wherever you go.

I don't know how that works, but you have a cool fucking life. Obviously, you have a different relationship to that. That is something that you have to think about. So help me understand the psychology of that. Like when you're going out to run, like what goes through your mind and, you know, what do you have to do to make sure that you're safe? Like what is that experience that's relatable to, you know, every black American who wants to go run? Yeah. I mean, it's actually it's actually, it's, it's actually super complicated because, you know, we're in a running boom. And so a lot of people are getting into running now. And so

in addition to all the other challenges of, of getting into running your body rebelling against you, where do you go? Like, how do you do it? Like, it's the most simple thing that we have in the human toolkit, but like, how do you get started? Um, but I've been talking to like, uh, a lot of brothers, a lot of brothers and sisters who have been doing it our whole lives or like who were school age athletes. And I think a lot of us actually have like a different relationship with it than has been reported in the media. And I think that a lot of us are so proud to be runners are so proud to do it that it's such like, um, an inviolable piece of our identity that when we go out to run, it's, it's like, uh, it's

like such a symbol of pride, you know? Um, it, it, it feels, you know, like an example of like a physical example of black excellence. I mean the way you feel when you have a good run, I think for a lot of us is actually tied to feeling good to be black or like kind of residing in these bodies that we're blessed with. So I don't have like a fraught relationship with going out for a run. I mean, are there sort of, I mean, obviously I can give you like a litany of racist experiences that I've had while running. I'm sure you've had a ton of those. You read like, well, if you're going to do that, then you should wear a t-shirt with a university name on it or something. Some kind of signaling. I mean, if it comes down to- I'm a safe fly person. Look, running's hard enough. You can line up excuses,

but if I got to put on an Ivy League shirt to go for a run, I might take up ceramics or some other kind of thing. You don't think about that then? No, no, no, no, no. I mean- But you put the Black Roses stuff on. I mean – But you put the Black Roses stuff on. Yeah, yeah. I mean if I've really got a flash on it. But I honestly think that in recent years as I've thought more about why it is I run or like what it means or what is the experience,

experience, I've come to understand that like, you know, honestly, the black body moving through space is such a wild image to people. And when you're a kid trying not to get cut from the track team, if you're trying to like not finish last in the two mile, you ain't thinking about, you're thinking about like, you don't want to let down John Carlos and Tommy Smith. Like,'re in the two mile like, I can't finish last because then what would Edward Moses think? But, you know, now I'm thinking about it and I just see that like the reactions that people have when I run by, whether I'm in Brooklyn and Bed-Stuy, if I'm in a black neighborhood or if I'm in a white neighborhood or in a different country, just I feel that the image of like a black man running is one of the most sudden and visually arresting images that people might be confronted with. That's not my idea. That's just what I'm seeing and experiencing, you know? And I was like, why is that triggering? Why are like people almost hitting their car? I mean, this is like, if you run in, if you're training,

if you run a hundred miles a week, that's a lot of people you're passing. You're going to see a lot of people. You're going to see a lot of people. And so there's a constant sort of like stop and stare. And sometimes in your vanity, you know, someone's checking you out, then you're feeling good. I wish I could look like that and run like that guy. You know, it's like, okay, cool. Take that. Or I'm going to cross the street. Yeah. Well, yeah. I mean, you know, when you're fit, you're faster than them. So what's weird, sorry to interrupt, but like, what's weird is that, you know, look,

It's more massive than them. So what's weird, sorry to interrupt, but like what's weird is that, you know, look, running is dominated by blacks and African-Americans across the board from the hundred meters all the way up, right? Like at the highest level, at the elite level. And historically it's rooted in black culture and African culture. But in America, it's sort of this white thing, right? Which is a strange, it's like, you know, we think of it, we don't think of it in terms of its ancestral roots. Yeah, I mean. Or at its elite level. Yeah, and I think that, you know, lately I just sound embarrassing like an old like curmudgeon-y Marxist or something like that. But I think in terms of like a late capitalist critique of what happened in the running boom coming out of the seventies and eighties, you know, it really was

running, popular running was reduced down to this idea of like, this is something that rich white guys do. And so I have to keep resetting because a lot of us don't even think that, like you've talked to brothers around the way and we're like, this is what I do. This is cool. So when we joked on our first conversation together, I just grew up that way. Not only do I think that that's quaint, but also I keep going back to bring something of that into the present day and suggest that far from these articles about like running has always been white or like jogging has always been a white sport. I don't really know.

Right, I mean, you grew up, your dad would go to the 10Ks and like joke around with his buddies. And that was kind of the culture that you grew up in. But one of the things that I love that you do on Instagram is you'll find old ads from like the 70s from running magazines and stuff like that. And you'll show them and you see the sort of historical, you know, chronicle of like how running was portrayed to the

public, you know, with like the latest pair of shoes or running shorts and stuff like that. And it's super fascinating to see how it's being depicted. Right. Well, of course, like, you know, America loves using black people and black culture as marketing forces. So even in this, the Michael Spino book, Inner Running, right? Or Beyond Jogging, like this super esoteric 70s kind of cult book about jogging. They had a brother on the cover. And so when I met Mike Spino, I was like, yeah, man. I mean you were coming out of the Esalen Institute.

You put a black dude on the cover of this mystical book about running. He's like, that's John Carlos. He wasn't happy about that. that kind of representation all the way along until, you know, maybe 80s and 90s. Yeah, when I look back at my training logs, or when you look back at, you know, the magazines of the day, there wasn't really kind of any representation or diversity, but it was happening. You know, the conversations were there. Again, it's weird to keep referring to Instagram, but I follow some of these high school heroes or these guys that I would follow. America's Best in the 90s, Bob Kennedy, Todd Williams on Instagram. And now it's kind of cool to see how your legends ended up. This dude, Bob Kennedy, he's from Indiana.

He's Indiana like born and bred. That was just like his thing. He posted this thing the other day talking about Steve Holman. Steve Holman was this black dude who was America's best miler, more or less the best miler in the mid-'90s when I was kind of coming up. And whatever happened with the Olympic schedule of every four – he never won a gold or anything like that. But he definitely was that guy. Cover of Runner's World, whatever, handsome. And man, just last week, Bob Kennedy posted this anecdote about riding around with Steve

Holman at a track meet in Los Angeles in the 90s. And the discrimination that Steve Holman was getting coming out of the hotel and people checking IDs. And it was so crazy to hear about a story of my heroes in 1994 experiencing something that I was struggling with as a young runner at the same time. the same time. And to know that like Bob Holman and, and, and, and, um, you know, these, these athletes were experiencing this, but that it was also that conversation, Steve Holman and Bob Kennedy were having this conversation and Holman saying to Kennedy, like, you know, yeah, this is like my reality. And if you're not part of the solution, you're part of the problem. And that's – And your sense was that somebody like that must have transcended that.

Like he can't be having to deal with the stuff that I'm having to deal with? Well, it never even got that far. He's on the cover of the magazine and he's got like a winning smile and you're looking at his times. You're not kind of looking at – to him for like lessons of like perseverance on a cultural level, on a political level. So honestly, it kind of broke me a little bit to read this story of these guys who were young and pursuing their dreams. And what I am personally sort of obsessed with, you know, like when we're thinking about black Americans representing the United States on an international level or just walking down the street and representing America, you know, what does that mean? I mean, so we know it's easy to think about John Carlos and Tommy Smith on the podium in 1968 winning gold medals in the 200. But what did it mean for Ted Corbett to represent the United States in the marathon as a black man in America at the 1956 games in Helsinki?

So what was his life like if if brown versus board of ed was early 50s right and then emmett till uh emmett till's ghastly murder and appearance on the cover of magazine was 55 54 55 and then ted corbett is like wearing the usa singlet in the marathon you know in 1956 in helinki, what was his life like? I mean, PSA about Ted Corbett just really, it's tough to think about running being always a white man's sport. If this guy was the founding president of New York Roadrunners, if this man was the architect behind the Five Borough New York City Marathon course that's celebrating its 50th anniversary this year. I mean, a superlative American, Ted Corbett. Yeah, but I really don't know his story. Like that story isn't being told.

We need that on the New York Times bestseller list. But I mean, this guy had the longest streak of sub-three-hour performances at Boston. I mean, the guy's like 19, like just whatever, and was active up into his 80s. Just an incredible ambassador for the sport, clean eating. And, you know, like he's one of those guys you read about like in the, you know, sadly short Black History Month. This guy, in addition to all these other exploits, also invented the course measurement system that's used on bicycles to measure – that USATF will use to measure courses empirically.

So this is like a wild American. Interesting note about Ted Corbett, he was also a member of the New York Pioneer Club. Interesting note about Ted Corbett, he was also a member of the New York Pioneer Club. And the New York Pioneer Club was America's first integrated sports club that integrated in the decade before Jackie Robinson integrated Major League Baseball. So this kind of legacy of multicultural participation, of black American representation in athletics is something that is definitely up for revision for sure. One of your big mantras is, and we talked about this last time, is running is an act of rebellion, right? So now in light of current events, like how do you contextualize that statement? Like how does that apply towards your perspective and the role of advocacy around what we've seen unfold? You know, honestly, in a difficult way, in a quiet way, thinking about Ahmaud Arbery's last day.

He was 25 and what would John Mayer say? Quarter life crisis. He's 25. Think about what we were doing when we were 25 or what people are doing, figuring out your life. You're letting go of the ideals you had of who you were as a teenager in high school and thinking about what it means to be an adult. And man, instead of sitting around on the couch smoking weed, depressed, like the dude put on his, you know, not to say he was sitting around being depressed or whatever, but I just think all of us,

you hit that, those stages in your life where you need to figure it out. And we know that you can figure it out through running. And I can't get over the sense that like, like all of us, all runners, it's a vehicle for us to see goals in the future. It's a vehicle for us to see, to imagine. And so I keep thinking that, well, that's rebellion, right? Because it's easier for us if we're just going to be like a digit. It's easy for us if our politicians are just going to want us to not show up to the polls. If, you know, companies just take us for granted that we're going to consume whatever food they put in a package on the shelf, you know, that we're not going to

patronize our own establishment that have like been on this corner for 20 or 30 years and a box store can come and replace it. So anytime we're not doing that, anytime we're reinvesting in like the human community and our own communities, and we're circulating our dollars in our communities, that's rebellion in this kind of like late stage capitalist death row that we're locked in right now, you know? Yeah. And Ahmaud Arbery was doing that. And the idea that, yeah, black man triggering,

freedom triggering, but also that's just a symbol of freedom and that I'm- An agency. Yeah, like I actually, I cannot, you know, can't get my car out of the shop. I can't change this school loan bill today. You know, I can't kind of school loan bill today. I can't change climate today, but what can I do today? And a run might not even figure any of that stuff out, but a run

might be literally and figuratively the first steps to figuring some of those things out. Yeah. Well, there's running to something and then there's running from something. Yeah. Right? So running from the cops, that's its own form of rebellion, I guess, right? It's its own fitness. Running to something implies, sort of self-investment, positive change.

Like I'm looking for answers, I'm grappling with identity. Yeah. I mean, so when people say that, yeah, running is like a white thing, I mean, the idea of running is so deeply bound up in the story of black Americans that it's such a metaphor for us, which is why like preachers talk about it in the pulpit, which is why Preachers talk about it in the pulpit, which is why, you know, rappers kind of like reach for it as a metaphor in their verses. So it's interesting to kind of restore it and situate it to look at the ways in which it's a profoundly American thing, you know. And I think interestingly, we're also seeing a moment in which we're realizing that things that – again, like you brought up revision.

Our own revisionist history. There are certain things that fell outside of the canon of Euro-American cultural values. Like one of the things about white supremacy is that it's so predicated on this narrow idea. I mean it's a totally concocted, fabricated idea, right? Like what's a white person? That it also necessarily excluded all other forms of supremacy, all other forms of culture and existence. And so from the very beginning of this culture, of this country's birth, so many of these practices that black Americans were engaged in were kind of excluded from the narrative. So fabric arts might be considered making clothes, you know, and African

hair art, you know, hair braiding that we brought with us from Africa might just, you know, not only be considered hair braiding, but was so threatening on like, you know, the slave plantation system that even that was sort of forbidden, you know. So the things that we were practicing during African enslavement and then, you know, in the decades since were sort of excluded from the narrative of what could be art and what could be creativity and what could be expression. And so this is a bit of a leap, but I think where I'm at right now is like looking at running as expression, you know, like along the lines of dance, you know, like the movement as expression and movement as an art.

You know, it's okay to call it a sport. It's okay to celebrate at the Olympics and put a label on it. But when you're calling it sport, it's able to kind of push it over to the side and be like, ah, that's something that those folks do. But what if we're like looking at the movement arts next to the visual arts, next to the sonic arts, you know? And so I kind of, I'm thinking about running now in the context of sculpture, in the context of like, you know, Miles Davis's work in the context of meditation practice, rather than just kind of like, you know, doing quarters around the track. So. Yeah. I mean, there's a, there is a beauty and a poetry to that. And there are certainly performances that stand out as examples of that, like whether it's Edwin Moses,

you know, hurtling or Usain Bolt running the a hundred meter dash or Kipchoge, you know, breaking the two hour mark. Like those, those are pieces of performance art, undoubtedly. And when you're, you know, kind of recounting these various art forms, you know, I can't help but think about how music is distinct from that, like when certain art forms percolated up that did resonate with white culture, they were immediately appropriated and repackaged in a different way. So anytime like something kind of – oh, like that, actually that might be something. Like let me grab that and I'll take that and I'll present it to the public in a kind of mainstream way that's digestible for them. Yeah. I mean, you kind of grow up knowing that as a black person, like a white man took everything. Yeah. Well, it's the trope of Elvis and all that.

Yeah. But I'm seeing it like all over the place now. You know, not only in the work that, you know, maybe even I've been doing in running culture for the past 10 years to see how, you know, that along with the efforts of a small group of people working in urban running has shifted marketing campaigns of multinational corporations. Yeah, 100%. Yeah. That's your fault. It's my fault. So, yeah, definitely apologize to the ancestors. It's cool to have like a bridge runners team now in your city and stuff like that.

I mean, it's like Black Roses. Like last time we did the pie, I thought like, I'm going to ask him for a Black Roses jersey. And I was like, no, I can't. Not unless I'm part of the team because I know you don't give those out. You know, it's like, you got to be in the deal. Yeah. I'm trying to hold on to that, you know, or, and then, you know, like Jessica Simpson, just like sell it and like produce it in a sweatshop and like get rich or whatever. But

yeah, for now, uh, it's, it's that kind of idea, but yeah, for it's wild to have watched brands. I mean, people just don't know, like, you know know like – nod to the articles about like running has been a white thing. There was just like no black people on the pages. Now, you go through a page of – or running ads and it's just like you think it's only black people. If you were to judge running by its ads, you would think only black people do it because that's how heavily marketed they're using black folks now. But I'm not even kind of like, yeah, you got to look outside of running for inspiration to kind of like figure out your way forward with running. And in this quarantine time, it's been wild to just kind of, again, I'm on so many different like IG lives. Like it's like going back to school.

And so I've been seeing really fascinating conversations with black ceramicists and looking at the connections between pottery and running. Or, you know, I thought about coming and rapping to you about this, but even the tradition of barbecue in black culture, you know, is super fascinating. And to look at the ways in which that's been gentrified, you know, I was watching this, there's a super fascinating barbecue expert named Howard Conyers, I think is his name. And he's from South Carolina, lives in New Orleans now. And I'm so impacted by listening to this guy speak. First of all, he's literally a rocket scientist. He's gone and works in a jet propulsion engine lab or whatever, but he's also a master at barbecue. And the historical research that he's doing to show that Africans were introducing pit barbecue techniques in 16th century Mexico. Oh, wow.

Like Mexicans are going to be mad when I'm back in Mexico. Like, you think black people invented barbacoa? You know you're pro-black. I know people are like, Knox is really pro-black. But you know you're pro-black when you walk around Mexico like, we invented that. But like, you know, you're pro-black when you walk around Mexico, like we invented that. So shout out to all my peoples in Mexico, like respect to the cuisine. But I'm really looking at the ways in which even our own practices that we've been doing here in the Americas has just been kind of like subsumed by the dominant culture. kind of like subsumed by the dominant culture.

Hair braiding, for instance, obviously just a symbol of black elegance and communication that we brought with us from Africa. Bo Derek is like a classic example of cornrows kind of going crazy. Iconic image. It's tough to be mad at Bo Derek. You know what I mean? Like, you know, if you want to like rail against white people

and Bo Derek's up there with, you know with braids on, it's like, yeah. You got to be of a certain age, though. That movie, 10. Well, I mean, again, though, but it's just wild to see the ways in which, like in running, white women have appropriated African hairstyles or African-American hairstyles and sometimes not even understanding. I've seen folks call it race braiding. And I was like, wow, not only are you kind of like really co-opting these kind of super rich cultural expressions from black women in America who are paying the cost for that, who are suffering from unfair and discriminatory is offensive, you know, and is cultural appropriation. So even in running, which is simple, just lacing up and going down the road is rife with cultural appropriation that like that is worthy of investigation for sure. For sure.

Well, every art form, every trend is built upon the legacy of some preexisting form, right? So, you know, if you extrapolate that argument, everything is appropriation. So at what point does the appropriation or the nod to the forebears, you know, become inappropriate? And like, what is the responsible ethical way to, you know, basically embrace multiculturalism? Like, I think that's a, that's like an area where a lot of people don't know where their ground is firm. Yeah. Yeah. I think, oh man, it's not sexy, but it really is a question of attribution and respect. And so now in these days, when people are talking about the phrase, you know, do the work, knowing sort of, you know, you don't want to be a nerd like me and kind of just be like making all these connections, but, you know,

you really do have to understand you brought up the example of Elvis. I mean, kind of taking in rhythm and blues music and stripping away all its labeling and then repackaging it for something that you want to market in a different kind of way. That's, I think, probably where the disconnect is. If we're understanding that Picasso and George Braque were getting so much influence from African sculpture when they were working at that time, then we're understanding Picasso a little bit more. And we're also problematizing our sense of what genius is rather than thinking this is like the greatest artist of all time. This is like the greatest artist of all time looking at Picasso as a link in the chain and someone who you might put his work up – as museums are doing now, his work up next to the work of Faith Ringgold. Like how artists can not only be just contemporaries in the studio or at a moment in time, but also thematic and cultural contemporaries and in cultural conversation. Juxtaposing those against the influences. Yeah, for sure. So I think it's, again, they always say it's a question of influences, you know? And so I think that when we're respecting our inspirations, when we're acknowledging our inspirations from whence they came, then I think that that's a huge step towards kind of like, again, dismantling some of these white supremacist practices like cultural appropriation.

If there's a woman who wants to, you know, cornrow her hair for her marathon, how is she supposed to provide that attribution in a respectful way? Well, you know, I mean, it might be economics, right? You might want to pay a black woman to do it, you know, rather than say like, you know, if this is how black women in our communities make their living with hair braiding salons, let's patronize those businesses and give credit to that. Like the idea that like this is how I braided my hair in high school, you know, and so this is what I'm going to do. That's not exactly the same thing. Now, it should be said that like women around the world have always braided their hair in intricate fashion. And so some braiding techniques coming out of Scandinavia, culturally demonstrable. So I'm not trying to take the calls to action for this moment that hopefully will go forward, but I think that that's like the work we need to do now. So really think how do I make space for other people?

How do I make other people feel comfortable? You know, again, to say in running or something like that, like how do we create a more just space in our communities? Yeah. I'm interested in kind of what unity and allyship looks like to you. Like I'm just sitting here thinking I'm a white dude. I'm privileged. I come from a certain background. We're in this moment.

And I really want to be as open as possible and as teachable as possible. I want to fully understand the breadth and the depth of what we're contending with right here. And I want to be an ally. And I'm very, you know, I find myself feeling cautious or somewhat paralytic around what to say and what to do for fear of misstepping in a culture in which, you know, a slight misstep on Instagram or in public is met with, you know, what we were talking about before. And not that I really, you know, care that much about any of that. What I do care about is like getting this right. I'm interested in, you know, what that looks like from somebody of your perspective. That's an interesting thing.

And I think that's something that a lot of us are thinking about. And one of the things about double consciousness is that I wasn't really thinking about that situation you just described. I don't think a lot of black Americans that I've been in conversation with over my life have been really talking about paralytic white guilt. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So the wave of communications in the past several weeks has been really fascinating. Let me make it about me. Yeah, right.

Like I was like- Here's the thing, like it's so funny because all the white dudes are freaking out right now, trying to figure out what to say and what not to say. Yeah. And my black friends are like, relax, man. Yeah. Like we've been waiting for you. It's cool.

Yeah. How do I get it right? I was like, we're not counting on you to get it right. Don't worry. Like, just chill out, you know? Join in. Yeah, the whole paralytic idea of getting it right. So I didn't even know, you know, like when after the George Floyd killing, when, you know, black, when before we were really aware and it was happening daily, right?

You know, like our experiences and our understanding of the moment was setting in. So when there was like so much like white silence, I was like, oh, okay, cool. White people don't have anything to say. Okay, cool. And it was actually a real vacuum, a real deafening silence. It was actually really incredible because I was able to just think about the life of Ahmaud Arbery, Breonna Taylor, George Floyd without so much noise. And I was able to reach out and connect to other black people in that space and just have these emotional connections. And what were those conversations like?

You know, they were uncomfortable because, you know, you really have to, I mean, like everybody has divestment that they need to consider. So you really have to kind of like let go of machismo or you like these kind of like chauvinistic ideas of our own vulnerability and fragility. Um, and so I had just reached out and just like, honestly, I think it was like the Tuesday after George Floyd, I just called and like texted like a lot of black men in my life. I wasn't like on Instagram. I wasn't, you know, doing much except that. And it wasn't that I was just like saying that to my friends or my family, you know.

It was that I was doing it to people that I respected from a distance. I was reaching out to people that I know didn't really like me too much. And I just wanted to like say, and it wasn't even cut and paste. I was actually going through and I was like reaching out to someone and just saying like, Hey, just want to let you know for these qualities. I just want to let you know on today that I love you. Cause I think that it was just like my instinct, spiritually, emotionally, like black men needed to hear it. Black women need to hear it every day of their lives, but black men, you know, the day after watching or the day of watching video of this, this man getting killed,

you know, over the course of eight minutes and 46 seconds, um, needed to know that they were loved. And so that was like a really emotionally exhausting process that I went through on that day. So that was, I think it took a few days to recover from that. So then by the time the weekend rolled around, then I saw, you know, like white women yogis were like hosting Zoom chats for people to examine fragility. Then it was cool. I was like, oh, white people got this. White people are just going to talk to each other. They're not going to bother me at all. So I'm good. I was like, it went from like white silence to like white people talking to each other. It was great. That Monday hit, that bell rang on Wall Street. Every black person's phone starts ringing. Knox, I need you to get on a plane and come talk to me on the podcast. I was like, oh, white people are silent on this?

That's terrible. I'm angry. But it's also like a nice little respite from white people. Ding, ding, ding, ding, ding. The phone was hot from like Monday 8 a.m. Like white people needed their materials reviewed. You know what I mean? Or they need Knox to tell me that I'm okay.

Yeah, and I'm like, yeah, that's not – I tell me that I'm okay. Yeah. And I'm like, yeah, that's not, I'm like, I'm not that kind of guy. Like I'm not, I'm not, that's not me. So, so that was like a process that, you know, I was kind of awkwardly and begrudgingly negotiating. And then the third week, white people had it figured out already. So then I was like, oh, now white people are like, Black Square Tuesday. And companies are like, black people, we've got it figured out. Here's 10K. Here's 40 million. Cool.

You know what I mean? So it was really swift the way the fumblings of people's responses or brands responses to kind of this, this tragedy. Yeah. That kind of, it is an awkward fumble though, because, you know, I found I'm, I'm finding myself doing the same thing. Like, like I said, like I'm grappling with how to communicate around this and, and also, you know, getting honest about diversity on my own platform.

I talked about this the other day. I like to think that I've had a wide variety of diverse voices on my podcast, but when I'm objective about it and I measure it up against the 520 plus podcasts that I've had, it's predominantly white. I have a lot of growth there. So what do I do? Well, I get out my contact list and I scour Twitter and I look for interesting voices. And then you're the one who gets the phone call among other people. And that's weird too. Like, oh, now I'm going to call Knox. You didn't take a call.

I took a call. I know. And it's cool. And I'm glad that you're here and it's awesome. I know. And it's cool. And I'm glad that you're here and it's awesome. But like, does that feel like when you got that call from me, were you feeling like, oh, this is somewhat opportunistic also? You know what I mean? Like, you know what I'm getting at? Yeah. I mean, you can't overlook it. You know what I mean? Like, as Richard Pryor once said. I haven't talked to Rich since we did that retreat. You know, like now he's calling me, you know?

But I mean, you know, we're cool. Like I feel like the bond that we have as dudes and as runners and as athletes and writers and kind of like engaged humans on the planet, yeah, you're taking that call, you know? But I was thinking like that's one idea to like reach out and like us to connect. But there's this movie Putney Swope. I don't know if you've ever seen it. Yeah, it's been a long time. Yeah, right. So everybody go back and rewind this movie because I keep thinking about it all the time. You remember the opening scene is the kind of like Madison Avenue, all white boardroom of the advertising agency.

And the chairman of the board has a cardiac arrest and dies like on the table. Yeah. And so they have to go around with the body on the table. They go around and do a vote for who's going to be the next chair. There's one black guy. It's the late 60s. And they all do anonymous vote. And when it comes time to read the votes, He wins unanimously to be the next chair.

And all the white dudes are enraged. Like, how did he do it? First of all, each white dude voted for him because none of them wanted another white dude to become the chair. And then he voted for himself. So not only are they mad that they all, like, hoodwinked each other, then they say, like, you voted for yourself. And he's like, of course. I was the best man for the job. He gets up, he says a speech and he's like, I just want to let you know, there's just going to be a few small changes. And then the next scene is the boardroom.

It's all brothers and afros. You know, people are doing hair, braiding hair at the table. And, you know and watch the film. And just because you swap out the boardroom and put all black people in doesn't make it great. They still do shitty marketing campaigns for black people. It's just black people doing the marketing. So there's a good lesson there. But I was going to say, really, in the spirit of this moment, another model is turning over your podcast to me.

Yeah. And I take over. So what is Knox Robinson's podcast at Rich Roll look like? So then I started kind of like thinking about what that was going to be. I was like, I would have to have a DJ, you know, kind of play. It would have like music break. And I was like, how would I, what would Knox Robinson do in the spirit of the revolution? Like, what would I do to totally flip your podcast? So that's the other-

I like that, man. That's the other proposition. I would let you do that. Yeah, you have seen people do that with Instagram. They're turning their Instagram accounts over to a diversity of voices. And I think that's really cool. Yeah. So, you know, there'd be the- Anytime you want to come and do that, man. You might have to move out of Mexico City at some point. How long are you going to be there, you know, there'd be the- Anytime you want to come and do that, man. You might have to move out of Mexico City at some point. How long are you going to be there, you think?

I'm working on something special. I mean, yeah, I'm working on something special. I'm bringing together, you know, I'm building a training camp with Herman Silva, the two-time New York City Marathon winner. And I'm working with one of the greatest architects, Michelle Rojkind, who you know, also in Mexico City. And so Michelle is going to kind of create this amazing Brutus architecture structure next to Herman Silva's training camp. And so we're working on that like right now. Like a permanent home as a retreat center. Oh, that's very cool. So that should be, you know, ready, you know,

at the end of this year. Wow. So I'm really excited to, to share that. Obviously like- This is going to be like a second home for you. A second home, but I want it to be like a second home for like a lot of people. Cause I was thinking about, you know, as we were heading up to Tokyo Olympics and how some of our American elites, you know, I'm thinking about it when I was a kid looking up at elites, you know, Steve Holman and Bob Kennedy. And they're like titans to me. Now I'm older and I'm a dad and I'm thinking how these kids are living. And I was like, oh, these kids are starving.

Like these kids are like the best runners in America and they're broke. Now we deal with brands so So we know how bad these deals are, you know, they're making like crazy little money. And so I was like, Oh, I kind of want to have a training center where I can just like throw the keys to some of these great training groups that are out there. You know, you see them on Instagram and they're doing amazing workouts on a dirt road in Boulder, but you're like, are these guys living like eight in a condo in Boulder? Like can I – Yeah, or Flagstaff.

Yeah, Flagstaff. Like you want to glamorize it when we're stuck in our worlds, in our things. But I just want to throw the keys to like some folks and just have people come out and train for like six weeks and like, you know, see what, see what it's like. So yeah, I just want it to be like a resource for, for, for people kind of getting after their goals and that kind of way. Yeah. I met Silva when I did that event in Mexico city. So beautiful, humble guy. Really an incredible person. Um, and it's, he's so still so engaged. Um, and so it's, it's funny to have kind of like ended up in this bizarre friendship with him over the past like eight or so years. So to kind of build this project with him along with Michelle is really kind of coming together of serendipitous energy.

Have you seen this? Have you seen Emmanuel Acho's Uncomfortable Conversations with a Black Man? No, what's that? Oh my God. This is like blowing up the internet. So he played football at University of Texas and was in the NFL and now he's doing this series like Uncomfortable Conversations

with a Black Man and he did his first one with Matthew McConaughey. Oh, okay. And it just like exploded the internet. It's cool because Matthew is the foil to him. And it's like, is it, should I say black or African-American? Like it's very basic. And he is so eloquent in like walking people through, like, let's just get a few things straight here. You know what I mean? I need that. No, because a couple of people, a couple of listeners I know or viewers who are seeing this are going to, he's talking about me. But yeah, folks have been asking me like capital B or lowercase b.

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, you know, I was writing a blog post the other day and I thought about that. I was like, is it black or is it African-American? Like, which one is it? You know, there's like a lot of stuff that like, you know, the learning curve is high. For everybody. Because that in and of itself is a great Google search, right?

Because it's like which newspapers and which media organizations in the 20th century decided to say, well, colored Negro, but then black capital B. What does capital B indicate versus lowercase? So it's a question of syntax and grammar that editors can weigh in on, but it was also a question of identity, um, for a lot of folks too. So, you know, um, yeah, language politics as much as personal politics. Back on this thing about allyship. I'm not sure we ever got to the answer on that, but I, I'm interested in what, you know, I want to explore that a little bit more and also kind of what the, what the blind spots are that you're seeing out there. Yeah. Um, cause I'm thinking about it a lot. And like, again, I'm not trying to be, I'm trying to like do white people's work and like,

think about what a white ally should be. I mean, respect to other brothers and sisters who are like ally coaches right now that that's valid, you know, it's just not, not my thing, but having had incredible relationships with, with, with white folks, you know, for the course of my life, I keep thinking about this guy that I trained with when I left New York City. I moved up to the woods on the banks of the Hudson River. His name's Mike Slinsky. Yeah, we talked about that a little bit last time. Yeah. He's never going to see this, so I can speak freely.

Before he was on Instagram, I would write about him all the time. I called him the bus driver. He was driving a bus for the local school district. And I was just telling him all like writing about his incredible wildlife and his stories and his insight. I mean, this guy changed my life. But he was on Instagram, so it was like a gift for a writer. I mean, this guy changed my life, but he wasn't on Instagram. So it was like a gift for a writer. I could just be writing about this dude and he would never know. Now he's on Instagram and I'm like, what's up, man? So now he's on Strava. No, it's bad. Now he's on Strava. Can't get away. It's bad. I was like, and I'll travel, you know, when Strava gives you the alerts when that your course little segment is – you lost the course record or something like that?

I don't know what that's like because I haven't held any of those. You've got to run some obscure course. Yeah. I told you I was living in the Hudson Valley. No, I do not. That's part of the athletic experience that I'm not familiar with. Yeah. Well, oh, yeah.

Because you're like in direct hits of that. No, I was living in the Hudson Valley. They barely get an internet. So I'll be traveling somewhere and I woke up and I was like, I just lost a course record to this dude. And I was like, you don't know? He's like, why? What's that? I was like, well, you get an email notification.

He's like, what? I was like, yeah, you just – never mind. Right. But this guy, over the course of the time that I was living in this tiny town on the banks of the Hudson was incredible. He was just the best training partner, consistent, focused, and you would really have to work hard. I mean, if I've known this dude almost 10 years, the number of times we've kind of like veered out of like non-training talk have been few, you know, and I'm talking about like when we were running, sometimes we're running through these towns in upstate New York and, uh, we were running through this town next to ours, Wappinger Falls. And I was like, Wappinger Falls, isn't where this was the whole Tawani Brawley incident, Tawana Brawley incident. Um, Al Sharpton was up here and there

was like protests and stuff. He's like, yeah, bad times in town. And so you couldn't really pull this guy into kind of any identity politics conversations. But he would come around and run. He's always going to be there with the workout. He's always ready for that Sunday long run. This guy would get up before our long run and he would go and like put water out on the course over a 20 mile run and then come back and then meet us and then run for like three people. You know, that's kind of like my understanding of like serving others and serving a friend and being an ally. So even in running, you know,

you're an ally and running doesn't necessarily have to like be up on the New York Times bestseller list, but a person who's respecting you as an athlete and respecting you as another person and definitely making sure that you're afforded safe passage if you're like moving, moving through, through space, but, um, someone who has your back in that way. Um, but then I think on like a social level, the other thing that I can't get over is like, as white folks are trying to tell each other what an ally looks like and as like, you know, trying to out ally, ally each other. And then like it's super binary black and white. And so like, you know, Trying to out-ally each other. Yeah, ally each other. And then like it's super binary black and white. And so like, you know, Asians are trying to figure out how they participate in it.

And they're trying to like settle scores with white people. And they haven't necessarily been historically the best allies with black people. So the whole thing is fraught. And I just think that like this isn't an idea that's been vetted by the experts, but I think white allies got to look at, or like aspirational allies just got to take a seat and like, look at how black people interact with each other, the mutuality, the exchange, the information exchange, the love exchange that occurs. Black people are hard on each other, you know, for sure. the love exchange that occurs, black people are hard on each other, you know, for sure.

But the bedrock of love and respect that has been key to the survival and the perseverance, but also like the flourishment of our culture is key. So, you know, no book is really going to tell you how to do that. It's going to provide some insight. But one thing I don't understand about these lists is like, there's very little fiction, you know? I mean, for me, a white ally has read Toni Morrison's Song of Solomon. You know, like if black culture is part of our American culture. And Toni Morrison won the Nobel Prize for Literature in 1993. Like everybody here on Instagram talking about allyship and all that, if you don't have Toni Morrison on your bookshelf, if you're just not reading our Nobel laureate fiction,

then like what are you doing with like all these self-help books on the shelf? You know what I mean? Like, what are you doing with like all these self-help books on the shelf? You know what I mean? So I really think, you know, yeah. I was like, I need a short answer for what a white ally looks like. No, I like that. It's just like Toni Morrison, Song of Solomon on your bookshelf. Cool.

That's like an early, early step, you know? Yeah. It is interesting that that may be a blind spot and yet black culture predominates pop culture from music to film, right? Yeah. I mean, hip hop is so dominant in terms of its cultural influence right now. Sure. And yet that doesn't necessarily track to its antecedents. Well, no, it does, sadly, right? Because the entire- I mean, the art form does, but the popular interest doesn't.

Oh, the popular interest. I was thinking in like a more macabre sense of the entire wealth of, you know, the Americas was predicated on black bodies. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So for us, like seeing hip hop and the legacy of like blacks in America, in the Americas is an essential link. But yeah, for real, by the time it becomes pop, popular, you sort of lose that original essence, right? Or you think you do right by the more bricolage you put on top of a foment. Yeah. So your son's in New York, right? Yeah. What are the conversations that you're having with him right now about what's going on? Yeah, he's tough. He's 16. He's 16. And everyone's like, oh, it's gotta be terrible for him. But I can't understand. I don't know if it's like really hard to be 16 in a quarantine lockdown. I got a 16-year-old daughter.

Yeah. It's rough. It's not bad, but it's like it's rough being 16 no matter what. So if you're Barron Trump, it's rough being Barron Trump no matter who your parents are, if that's his parents. You know what I mean? So I can't tell if my son – how hard it is. You can't separate the angst of 16 with the experience of a young black man growing up around a lot of chaos. Yeah, yeah.

And also with me as his dad, he's definitely more even tempered than I am too. So he's telling me to chill. You know what I mean? So he is on the precipice of like a huge time in his life thinking about college, but then what is that even going to look like? So I'm just kind of like, it's weird all the way around. He lives in Fort Greene. And to think that folks were burning a New York City police department police cruiser like a couple blocks from his house. Like that was that block. I lived on that block when he was born. I mean, the day I got home from the hospital where that police van is, I walked to right that block with my son in my arms and watched the sunrise, had coffee,

and told him and my ancestors that I was going to be a better man than I had been to that point. We'll see how that turns out. And then I started running the next day. So to see that police van charred, you know, is, uh, is actually like a weird kind of like touchstone. And my son still lives in the neighborhood with his mom. So they, she's been holding it down and yeah, it's, it's interesting to see what, what he's going to do with it. What do you, like, what do you want him to take away? Like, how does that from your perspective inform, you know, how he matures into a man?

Like, what do you want him to take away from this experience as a young black man growing up in America and in New York? Yeah, but I haven't really updated it since I thought about what I wanted for him as he was coming into this world. And I wanted, I expect, I demand that he be a good citizen. I mean, all these kind of like corny things that we came up with about like helping the elderly cross the street, whether you believe in voting or not, but like civics, you know, I think that the best examples of of our culture, no matter what your background is, I think that that's what I hope my son and my daughter embody. You know, I think I expect and demand that he's has an engagement in the whole world and thinking about our global community. I expect and demand that he, you know, cares about others and is compassionate and conscientious, but at the same time as a young man, he's got to make his own way. And so if I've sort of obfuscated or made fraught my meandering progression, that in a way is kind of

implying to him that it's incumbent on him as a young man to find his own way. You know, it's interesting to kind of think of how you raise your kids. When we were living in Brooklyn, taking him home from school one time, he was four or five. And somebody comes around the corner and wanted to sell a PlayStation under his jacket. Like, yo. And I was like, ah. And in that moment, how do you explain that to your kid? Because my son's like, oh, my God.

Yo, we could have had a PlayStation dad. And I was like, well, do you explain? Do you assume that it was stolen? Do you explain? You know, what do you do? And then at that moment, he's four. And I was like, am I going to be the kind of person who tells their four-year-old that there's good people in the world and bad people in the world and that bad people steal and good people don't? And just in that moment, I was just like, I got to be truthful and kind of talk about how complicated it is to live in Brooklyn, you know, where, you know,

whatever you're doing to make a living is on a spectrum of morality in a way. And certainly, for instance, someone selling weed in Brooklyn 15 years ago in California in 2020 could be, you know, living in a baller's crib. Yeah, an entrepreneur, you know what I mean? So even our morality spectrum is so ill-informed by sort of arbitrary or self-advantageous or convenient factors. The morality spectrum has to be contextualized by the social, you the social forces that compel a restriction of opportunity. Yeah. So we have to change those social forces, right?

Right. Like we can't affect the spectrum. You can't even participate in the spectrum if the sources are suspect, right? We've got to really dismantle those forces that you're describing, and that's the work we're doing when we're talking about dismantling white supremacy. I mean white supremacy is such a wild idea. It's such a wild phrase, and I keep referring back to this police van that was torched in Brooklyn. And I saw the photo. I'm in Mexico City, thousands of miles away. And I see these young, two young black women, fresh clothes style. And they're posing in front of the police van. And one of the sisters is holding up a sign that says, fuck white supremacy.

And I swear, it's like one of the most inspiring images I've ever seen in my life. You know what I mean? I had a couple of friends, black friends who were like, ah, that's chasing clout. Oh, kids these days, they'll say anything. And I was like, no, it's crazy that these girls, these young women could have done anything. They could have like done any pose. You know, my sister's got poses for days. And when it came time for them to like take a photo in front of this burning police car, they held up a sign that said white, fuck white supremacy. That's crazy. Like you couldn't say fuck white supremacy six months ago. People don't even know what that means. Like white supremacy wasn't even like a discussed concept. And so if understanding white supremacy as a concept

has entered our national dialogue and we're able to work on that, that just wasn't even happening just a short time ago. I mean, the fact that Merriam-Webster changed the definition of racism this week. Oh, they did? I don't even know that. That's crazy. How did it change? It's too crazy. It was like a sister just woke up one day. Oh, I guess she had been emailing them. And I think the definition that they had was the belief, racism is the definition that they had was the belief racism is the belief that characteristics and all this kind of stuff determine who you are as a race or these concepts. And she's like, this definition is off, you know? Um, and she kept emailing them and emailing them. And then after all the events that we've seen around the world recently, they emailed her back and they're like, you know, we took a second look at this definition

and you know, it's not just this errant belief in like race-based characteristics. Like even the, the situating of that definition is problematic. You got to think about what the sister was doing because she must've just been sitting around with white coworkers like it's happening in every coffee break room around the country. White people are like, I'm not racist. Yeah, let me pull up the definition and read it to you. Remember that? Remember when people used to – well, look it up in the dictionary. The belief that that's not me.

So they changed it to – what was the change? The change is like it's not me. So they changed it to – what was the change? The change is like it's more complex. It brings in, again, sort of what we were just talking about in terms of the nuanced forces that affect a person's view of seeing race in that way rather than just like some erroneous view that if it didn't apply to you, you know, it's almost like, it's almost like Buddhism, right? Like Buddhism doesn't care if you believe in it or not. It's just the way the world is put together, you know, Four Noble Truths and all that kind of stuff. So I think updating the definition of racism and taking it away from this idea that like, it's an idea that exists out there that a person can subscribe to or not. And if it doesn't – if they think it doesn't apply to them, then they're absolved of being a racist.

It's like recognizing that racism is a social force that is affecting people rather than a belief that you can – Irrespective of your individual perspective on it. I just couldn't think about like the practicalities of how this woman. That's huge. Yeah. And it was just this one sister who just was like, to whom am I concerned? I'm not taking this anymore. Yeah.

Info at Miriam Webster. Like, and yeah, it was crazy. So that's wild. Like, we'll look it up in the dictionary, you know, like for every. No, then I realized I was like, oh, that's what was going on. She was like sick of like working at Radio Shack, not Radio Shack, but like sick of probably working on these dudes who was just like, I'm not racist, look it up. Wow.

The imagery and the filmmaking that's going on right now is so extraordinary, you know, and it's almost like a day doesn't go by where there's a new clip of this person doing that, whether it's behaving badly or behaving courageously. And, you know, it's so impactful and powerful and indelible, the power of, you know, these phones that we have in our pocket to chronicle this moment so comprehensively and the impact of that on our kind of national and individual psyche.

And I'm interested in, I think I already know the answer to this, but, you know, how that leaves you. Like on some level, this is not new. not new, like this has been going on for a long time, but for whatever reason, it's entered our consciousness because of the rapid fire nature of these recent, you know, tragic events that were depicted in a way that made them, you know, irrefutable. Like they demanded that we pay attention to what's happening. And when you hear about, you know, whether it's the definition of racism in the dictionary getting changed or people taking to the streets, like change is happening. And there is this sense that we are living in a very historic moment of promise and opportunity. And personally, that gives me hope. And I know there's people out there like Ta-Nehisi Coates who are expressing

hopefulness around this. I listened to a podcast with him recently with Ezra Klein in which he expressed that. I mean, do you share that or how do you kind of project into the near and far future about how this is going to unfold? Well, Coates is an interesting example because he actually sees his own work as a pivot from the Obama era optimism, where Obama says the, Obama said that the, the moral arc of the universe bend towards justice. Yeah. The moral, I think the moral arc of the universe is long, but it bend towards justice. Right. Or eventually or something like that. Yeah. Coates is like, it bends towards confusion. You know what I mean? And, and that's, that's a scary concept, but I think that what we see in his work and what I think we see in this moment now is, um, a falling of the scales from our

eyes. And I think that this is an opportunity for us to really see things as they are, you know, and really grasp hold of that and not what, you know, mainstream media is telling us by the time it gets it, but what we're actually like, what we know to be true. And that's, that's, that is a leap of faith, right? You know, but I think that this is our chance to see beyond the speeches that politicians are making. This is our chance to think a little bit beyond what our mainstream media is telling us. And what does it mean for us? And strangely, this opportunity has been a reset on so many levels, but it's been a reset on like my mindfulness practice. And going back to the beginnings of that and then just thinking about the ways in which a mindfulness practice helps us just think of things more clearly.

It's interesting. You kind of think that meditation is like about how you become a guru on a mountaintop or something like that. But I've been reading and hearing some things lately that it's like it's not even about this nirvana state of an empty mind. It's actually about more practical than that in some ways. And it's about like being able to navigate thoughts and like see things clearly. And I think that that's a tremendous gift that is at our disposal right now to work through. And I think that kind of work on a personal level is what's going to equip all of us to kind of work our way through. And that's what we're seeing in the comment section, right? To take it from like a spiritual idea

down to like a super, you know, absurd example. But before you might see all comments sort of unified, but now if you're seeing all these kind of disparate voices, you're seeing like the fragmentation of people thinking their way through it in the past few weeks. You know, in 1992, rioting was bad. Or why would these people burn their own neighborhood? Well, in Los Angeles, it was an update of 92.

They weren't burning their own neighborhood, right? It was like a strategic move to burn non-black neighborhoods. Non-black neighborhoods. The conversation that's happening with white people about like the difference between protesting, peaceful protesting, looting and rioting. That's an interesting conversation to have instead of just kind of like watching your TV screen glow in the night and like kind of like making assumptions. Right. What you think it is. Without understanding that choices are being made about which images you're being presented and they're being contextualized in a certain way.

And that happened to me though. The day after Minneapolis first started to burn, I got on Instagram and I saw this really wild footage of someone just driving down the road, holding their phone out, and it was just like block after block of devastation, like on a cultural level, a pop cultural level. I couldn't, couldn't, I couldn't, it was just like blocks and blocks. And then it was posted with like no commentary, but it was posted by this amazing shop called Repair Lair. I followed him on Instagram

because I think I must've read an article about him in Outside Magazine. And it was this cool, I think a cool young couple, cool young people who have a business that repairs outdoors gear. You know what I mean? So there's a sustainability mission, there's an access mission and all that kind of stuff. At the time, I wasn't really thinking about the provenance and the handle. So I was just like, hey, I'm a follow fan of this account. I think it's problematic that you're posting this. Or I'm disappointed that you would post it without any context.

Because their followers were outdoor supporters. And so there was so much condemnation of why would these people burn their own stores and are you safe? And I was like, oh man, you're on the wrong side of history with this little judgmental on my part, but reacting in the moment. And man, the owner really like got at me in the comments, you know, like it was really antagonistic and some of the other people, and I don't engage in social media in terms of like going back and forth with people i just want a cup of coffee you know and

kind of reacted and so since then i've like opened up a dialogue with the owner with this woman and and just try to like figure that out and you know um thinking about how I could connect or we could connect and the outdoors world could connect with the rebuilding of urban devastation in Minneapolis. You know, like where the destruction of her shop is, it's just a few blocks from where Brogan Graham lives. Yeah. You know? Yeah. lives, you know? And so how can we kind of think about supporting small businesses as we build back our cities and still continue our mission of like sustainability and access to the outdoors and all that kind of stuff. So I really think that, you know, important conversations,

you know, important conversations, bridging that gap and reaching across that impasse, you know, not only me acknowledging that maybe I was kind of like applying too much heavy pressure to someone who was like fearful of losing their business, but also being able to double back outside the chatter and make a connection. And then I'm just kind of like, among a lot of other things I'm thinking about is how I can connect with this woman and her business that like has a great mission, you know? Yeah, that's interesting. I mean, it's that second piece, I think that's impactful that ties into the mindfulness. So you saw this, you got activated and despite your mindfulness practice, you found yourself reactive, but at least you were able to understand that you were being reactive and realize that there was actually an opportunity here and to reach across and to try

to, you know, develop a little bit of brotherhood or unity. You know, where can we see eye to eye here, even though we may be perceiving this situation completely differently? Sure. Yeah. I mean, because like, you got to dance with a girl that brung you, you know what I mean? So I was thinking, how did I even get up there in the first place? How was I following? I ended up unfollowing. I was like, I'm not even here for this convo.

And I only got pulled back in when she kind of kept talking at me and I had to come back and be like, are you still talking? Thought about it again, empathetically. And then I was just calling Brogan. I was like, yo, this business is right around the corner from you. You're the founder of November Project. Like let's- Has he, has he, that's cool. I've been, I've been, I've been talking to him a little bit too. Yeah. You know, just getting his boots on the ground perspective on what's happening.

It's amazing because, yeah, again, I'm not doing any white dudes work for him. Black allies, all allies are created, like all allies are equal, but some are more equal than others. I am not here. I mean, this is going to be the title of this podcast. It's going to be, I am not here to be your white knight savior. A black ally for a white guy is different from how a white guy got to be an ally to a black dude. So from Brogan, it's been a little light. I've been just kind of like, hey.

He sent you those videos? Yeah, that's how he communicates. It's absurd. So you see one pop up and you got to like excuse yourself. You're like, now I got to make a video back. Yeah, you can't be around your lady. It's a weird love affair with this guy who's like wearing some wild clothes. But yeah, he was getting a little

pressure. There was like a real strong brother, real strong voice in New Orleans who was just like going ham on November Project for co-opting an Armad Arbery run. Yeah. I know they found themselves in a little bit of a crosshairs with that. Yeah. And I was like, hey, Brogan, like, I didn't even wade in over there. I didn't just kind of like, yeah, light him up, brother. Like, cool. Double back to Brogan, like, Hey Brogan, like I didn't even wait in over there. I didn't just kind of like, yeah, light them up, brother. Like, cool. Double back to Brogan. Like, Hey, you good on it? That's kind of intense. And he's like kind of gradually there. Or like, even if I'm not helping him, I'm like listening or even just tapping him on the shoulder that like, Hey, you're the founder,

you've moved on in your life and you're raising the kid. I'm raising a kid, but like, this is like, hey, you're the founder, you've moved on in your life and you're raising the kid. I'm raising a kid. But like this is like just dig on this conversation. He's like, yeah, cool. And then three weeks later, his entire neighborhood is burning. Like that's a wild kind of thing. I was like, hey, let's catch up sometime and like talk about black representation in November Project. Yeah.

And then like three weeks later, he's like, we should have that call. sometime and like talk about represent black representation in November project. Yeah. Yeah. And then like three weeks later, he's like, we should have that call. Yeah. So yeah. Shout out to everyone. Better late than never.

Yeah. You know, waiting. And nothing but love for Brogan. Yeah. He just sent me a t-shirt, uh, he,

that he made. Um, well, I, I, I cajoled him into sending, making me one and sending it to me because he was doing it on Instagram. But it says – it's those hand spray painted T-shirts that he makes. Yeah.

But it says Zoom Call Summer Camp. Yes. Yes. I was like, I'm going to rock that. Just as painful as the November Project session, I'm sure. That's crazy. I don't understand why people want to be in November Project anyway. Black people complain and I was like, your arms are sore.

Why? If it's not representative, that's cool. That's fine. November Project is hard. It is hard. I've only done one. Right, same. That's what I'm saying.

I was like, Brogan, let's just be friends because I ain't never come into your thing. So when black people are mad about it, I want to pull them to the side, like, let it go. You don't want to do that anyway, right? We got bigger fish to fry. All right, man. Well, let's land this plane. How do we end this? I mean, I think it would be good to just recap, maybe just share some final parting thoughts about how we know, how we move forward in the best way and, you know, not to harp on this allyship thing, but I really do want to, you know, use this platform, you know, for good and to, you know, be part of the solution to this problem. And I just, I want to explore every possible way that I can do that. And having you

here to speak to that has been super helpful to me. So thank you for that. And having you here to speak to that has been super helpful to me. So thank you for that. And, you know, maybe just share a couple of quick, quick thoughts to round it out. Yeah. I mean, I know I'm wildly discursive all over the place, but I just, I keep, I keep coming back to this idea of love. So I know that's super obvious and basic and people have talked about it from time, but, um, Ahmaud Arbery's best friends say that it was weird. Every time he would like leave from hanging out, he would say like, I love you, man. And he wouldn't leave until they said it. And these are like young brothers sitting around in rural Georgia at the car wash leaving work. That's a really insane and rigorous practice to do.

So when I called up all these brothers and told them I loved them, it was rigorous from my end. It was tough to reach out. And man, for all the mistakes that I've made, and then I'm going to continue to make as soon as I walk out this door, I just want to keep thinking about love. And I wish that, I would hope that this would be a moment foror to someone else for no reason, all these things are adding up to this giant feeling of psychic pain that you can just feel. Whether you're feeling it in America's cities or you're feeling it in Ahmaud Arbery's killers. Like how abject were these guys that they went into like seek and destroy mode? You know what I mean? Like it's not too early to kind of think about the spiritual poverty, the imaginative poverty that racists feel. You know what I mean?

So if we can kind of at least consider what an ethic of love looks and feels like, if we can just kind of like reset and refer back to those basic civics that maybe we thought we were going to pursue as we got older. That's really what I'm thinking about. And I'm thinking about that, honestly, in like a really corny kind of social media way. Like it's okay to be like a white ally with, you know, 1047 followers and like, here's the list and you're like banging on at white people. But if then you're like going and getting in the DMs and like detracting from someone else, if you're the purveyor of suspicion or innuendo or, you know, kind of things like,

you got to think if our own white supremacy is uninvestigated until very recently, and that's black people, like black people have a social sickness that we've inherited from 400 years of experience in this country. So everybody is on the docket right now to investigate our own internalized white supremacy. Mm-hmm. Every time you drag in somebody and everyone, you're engaged in a little bit of chit chat. Every time you're sort of kind of like appropriating and every time you're doing all the little things, you know,

it's not just racist jokes that you're kind of telling, you know, there in the break room. It's like all the little small things that are up for investigation. Like the world doesn't become any less boring because you're not like the funny person telling racist jokes. And your world doesn't become any less interesting when you kind of like fall back from engaging in gossip and innuendo. So I just think that for me, that's what I've been trying to consider. And that's individual work. You're not gonna get a pat on the back for that.

If you stop that, no one's gonna know. You know what I mean? Like if you stop being a racist, the only people who are gonna know are your racist friends. So I'm sorry to tell all the allies, the aspirational allies out there, it ain't no medals. You know what I mean? It ain't no podium kind of thing. You see, even the white dude was on there with the podium and with John Carlos and he just, they didn't even give him a glove, whatever. He's like, it's two gloves, bro. You don't have any more gloves.

You know what I mean? Everything, you know, It's funny thinking about white people. Every time we post a photo of John Carlos and Tommy Smith, there's always a white guy from New Zealand who got a chump in it. Like, unless we forget. Yeah. Like us all. So, yeah, I guess I just want to kind of think about that with like a namaste type of vibe of things, you know? Well, that's beautiful. Speaking of appropriation, shout out to the brothers and sisters.

How dare you? All those Hindus out there, you're very upset with you. Anatomy. Right. I love you, man. Thank you so much. Yeah.

I appreciate your openness and honesty and vulnerability today. It meant a lot to me that you came all the way out here to share with me Yeah. I appreciate your openness and honesty and vulnerability today. It meant a lot to me that you came all the way out here to share with me. So I appreciate you. And I look forward to spending more time with you, man. I love you very much as well, yo. So thank you.

Thank you very much for this opportunity just to kind of like share in that energy. Yeah, it was good, man. It was good. You feel all right? Yeah, I feel excellent. Good. Yeah. If people are digging on Knox, easiest, best way to find them, at first run on Instagram.

Is that where you want to direct people? Yeah, for sure. Anything else going on you want to let people know about? No, man. It's just big things are kind of coming up as, you know, kind of building this place in Mexico. Yeah, keep me posted on that. Kind of moving to some new projects to share with folks to kind of participate in these ideas that we've shared too. So I've definitely been using this time to kind of go back to my own drawing board. So I'm really looking forward to things from here on out to share.

Yeah, cool, man. Thank you. All right. Thank you. Peace. Blance. Namaste. Yeah.

Batman is a gem I love Knox probably one of the coolest people I know hands down be sure to hit him up on Instagram you can find him at first run please check out the show notes for copious resources on all matters discussed today

and if you would like to support our work subscribe, rate, and comment on it on Apple Podcasts, on Spotify, and on YouTube if you'd like to support our work here on the show subscribe, rate, and comment on it Thank you. I appreciate my team who works very hard every week to put on the show. Jason Camiolo for audio engineering, production, show notes, and interstitial music. Blake Curtis for videoing today's show. Jessica Marana for graphics. Georgia Whaley for copywriting. Allie Rogers for portraits.

DK for advertiser relationships and theme music by Tyler Pyatt, Trapper Pyatt, and Hari Mathis. Thanks for the love, you guys. See you back here in a couple of days with another, what's next? I think we're gonna do an AMA, ask me anything. I'm back with Adam midweek this week, continuing in the series that we started just like two weeks ago, I think.

I'm excited about that. So until then, be well, peace, plants, Namaste. Thank you.