The Rich Roll Podcast - Kurt Sutter Is A Fearless Storyteller

Episode Date: May 10, 2018

Fundamentally, I'm a people pleaser. It took years of sobriety before I realized this is more character defect than positive attribute. I continue to struggle with it often. Kurt Sutter doesn't have this problem. A writer, actor, director, and long-time loyal friend, Kurt is a man utterly unafraid to be exactly who he is — a passionate artist committed to his creative vision for both life and art. Kurt's description of his upbringing is vintage Sutter: Raised in the shadow of Rahway prison, Kurt spent most of his New Jersey childhood indoors, away from people, three feet from a TV screen. That's where he learned the essentials of storytelling and the comic significance of anvils. Anvils aside, you most likely know Kurt as the creator, head writer and showrunner of Sons of Anarchy, the critically acclaimed outlaw motorcycle club psychodrama with a fanbase so rabid, it became the biggest hit television show in the FX network’s history. After humble beginnings performing off-off-Broadway in theatres, lofts and (in his words) holding cells (more vintage Sutter), Kurt caught his first major break in 2001, booking a staff writer gig on FX's The Shield, where he spent the next seven years mastering the fundamentals of fearless television storytelling and rising up the ranks to graduate as one of the show's coveted Executive Producers. Then came Sons. A seven-year, Shakespearean eruption of vigilantism, government corruption, racism, loyalty and human transformation, the show struck an immediate cultural nerve, cementing itself in the zeitgeist and skyrocketing Kurt to Hollywood's A-list. Kurt's creative output is impressive. Beyond Sons, Kurt penned Southpaw, a gritty feature-length boxing drama originally written for Eminem that ultimately starred Jake Gyllenhaal. He created The Bastard Executioner, a historical drama that ran for one season of FX, and a comic book mini-series called Lucas Stand. Mayans MC, Kurt's third television drama for FX, is set to debut soon. And this list doesn't even include Kurt's many feature projects currently in development. A self-described misanthrope, let's just say Kurt has a penchant for unapologetically speaking his mind — a disposition at odds with Hollywood etiquette that has resulted in more than a few skirmishes. But the Kurt I know — the Kurt I have been friends with for well over a decade – is a man quite apart from the reputation that often precedes him. He's a family man. A husband and father of three children. A great friend. An example of selfless service. And an extraordinary artist. It may sound like a Cinderella story. But success for Kurt didn't come easy. And it didn't come early. Overweight throughout his youth, he once tipped the scale at 400 pounds. Then came the drugs and alcohol — a battle he very nearly lost. It's a helluva ride. Today, we get into all of it. For the visually inclined, you can watch the conversation on YouTube at: http://bit.ly/richandkurt. If you are enjoying the video versions of the show, do me a favor and subscribe! Peace + Plants, Rich

Write about things that move you. Whether being moved means being enraged, means being in love, you know, whatever that is, you have to write about something and from a place of, I need to tell this story, rather than I'm going to write this to get this. You know, people are so worried about doing something that's going to sell or something that people want to hear, you know, rather than generating something that means something.

That's Kurt Sutter. And this, well, this is the Rich Roll Podcast. The Rich Roll Podcast. So I have this confession I want to make. I think it's fair to say that I can be a little bit of a people pleaser. And I used to think of this as a positive quality, setting aside my needs, my perspective to make somebody else comfortable. Well, doesn't that seem like a gracious thing to do? I always thought so. And it took years of sobriety before I was even fully aware of this default setting, this thing that's kind of plugged into my DNA.

And even more years before I realized, you know what? This people-pleasing thing, it's really more of a character defect than a positive attribute. And then even more years had to transpire before I began the process of trying to deconstruct this character defect and begin the process of trying to overcome it. And I got to tell you, it's something that I still really struggle with on a pretty regular basis because you see at its core, people-pleasing is really, it's a mark of insecurity. It's this sense that your perspective, your needs, they're not that important. Always sublimating yourself for others is sort of this demonstration of a lack of self-respect or an inability to set healthy boundaries. But what's really pernicious about all of this is this idea that if you are just who you are,

that somehow that is not enough. This idea that you need to be who you think that person wants you to be is basically tantamount to believing that you just being you isn't worthy. And this idea that you're always ensuring that people like you or that's your priority and altering your demeanor to meet that end because to be yourself would be to put yourself at risk of being rejected because you can't possibly be accepted for who you really are. That is not healthy, people. Do you feel me? Do you hear me?

Well, let me tell you, this is not Kurt Sutter's problem. My name is Rich Roll, and today I converse with a man, an artist, a friend I respect tremendously, a guy who is utterly unafraid to basically say exactly what's on his mind, to be exactly who he is, and to be totally unwavering, uncompromising, and committed to his truth, his art, and his creative vision. Kurt is best known as the creator, head writer, and showrunner of a tiny little TV show you might have heard of called Sons of Anarchy, the critically acclaimed outlaw motorcycle club psychodrama that became the biggest hit show in the FX network's history and has this crazy, rabid, basically fanatical fan base. I really like this one line from Kurt's bio, which only Kurt could have written,

so I'm just going to read it to you. Raised in the shadow of Rahway Prison, Sutter spent most of his New Jersey childhood indoors, away from people, three feet from a TV screen. That's where he learned the essentials of storytelling and the comic significance of anvils. That is so good. It's so good, and it is so vintage Sutter. If you knew Kurt, you would know that only he could write that. Anyway, Kurt is an actor as well as a writer and director. If you did watch Sons, you might have nightmares about his harrowing turn, his portrayal as Otto on the show. That was

quite a remarkable performance. And he started his career in New York performing in off-off Broadway theaters and lofts, and in his words, holding cells, more vintage Sutter, which ultimately led to some directing, some teaching. He went to grad school at Northern Illinois and then found himself in Los Angeles in 2001. He ends up booking this staff writer gig on The Shield. And that's where he really cut his teeth and found his voice working with that show's creator, a guy called Sean Ryan. And over the course of the next seven years, Kurt would rise up the writing ranks on that show, and he would finish up the last two seasons as executive producer. And then he rolls right into Sons of Anarchy, which again, he created and ran for seven seasons. Along the way, he wrote a screenplay for Eminem called Southpaw. It's this boxing flick that ultimately ended up starring Jake Gyllenhaal.

We tell some funny stories about that and was directed by Antoine Fuqua. He then created this other show, The Bastard Executioner, that ran for a season. And he's got a brand new show that's soon to launch called Mayans MC. I got plenty more I want to say about Kurt, but this seems like a good place to pause and talk about underwear. Because, you know, it just seems totally natural, right? We're brought to you today by recovery.com. I've been in recovery for a long time. It's not hyperbolic to say that I owe everything good in my life to sobriety. And it all began with treatment, an experience that I had that quite literally saved my life. And in the many years since, I've in turn helped many suffering addicts and their loved ones find treatment.

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recovery.com. Okay. Kurt Sutter. What can I say? I can say this. Here's the thing about Kurt. I think it's fair to say, and I think Kurt would agree, that Kurt has a reputation. He has a reputation as a bit of a rabble rouser, a fire starter. Like I said, somebody who is utterly unafraid to voice his opinion, which is highly unusual in Hollywood, which I think it's also fair to say has gotten him into a little trouble from time to time and given him this sort of bad boy image. But the Kurt that I know, the Kurt that I've been friends with for well over a decade, is a man quite apart from anything you might have read or may have surmised from the press. He is a good man. He is a good friend. He's a family man. He's a husband. He's a father. He's also a guy who once weighed 400 pounds,

a guy who has had his ass kicked by drugs and alcohol and food, a guy not unfamiliar with battling demons who has pretty courageously overcome his past and now helps a lot of people. He's a guy who's come out the other side with really firm grasp on who he is as a man and as an artist. He's a guy I respect tremendously and somebody with a powerful life experience that I think we can all learn from. This is his story. How upfronts are this week? I'm way behind on the stripes.

Are you? I was all ready to go and then I was like, and I looked at my, I actually looked at my calendar and I went, It's not going to happen. It'll I was like, and I looked at my, I actually looked at my calendar and I went, it's not going to happen. It'll be, it'll be bad if it happens. So. Yeah. But how it's gotta be weird to not be at upfronts though. If you're the,

you're the creator and the show runner. Yeah. Sort of. Yeah. They're going to give you a pass on that one. Yeah. They, they, I don't think they expected me to go, you know, cause it's, uh, you know, it's more about other shows that are premiering right now. Um, but you know, they invite everybody and, but my cast is going to, or my main cast is going to go. So, right. And Elgin, the guy I'm doing the project with is going to go and he's not been, so it's all, you know. Yeah. It's new for him, right? This is his, is this, he's written other stuff, but this is his first like big TV show. Yeah. Yeah. No, he's a super you know. Yeah, it's new for him, right? He's written other stuff, but this is his first like big TV show.

Yeah, yeah. No, he's a super talented guy. He just had, are we doing anything? Yeah, we're rolling. We'll just roll right into it. He's doing Elgin James. He had a movie come out this year, and I'm going to forget the name of it. Low Riders maybe,

which he doesn't like to talk about because not unlike what happened with me and Southpaw, they, you know, a bunch of- There were changes were made. Yeah, changes were made much to his dismay, so. Right. But now he's a super, he's a really talented cat. It's like one of those things where, you know, that experience where you're, in a good way, you're in a room with somebody when I first met with him. And you have that realization of like, oh, this guy's way smarter than me.

You know what I mean? Like just, you know, just operating on that different level and obviously very much a different life experience, you know? I mean, he's kind of from the culture, isn't he? Yeah. He was a guy who came up and, you know, straight edge, right? And, you know, some people called them gangbangers, and he had a different perception of what they were doing. And, you know, he—

It's like the hardcore scene, right? Yeah. It's like in D.C., and, you know, he was a punk rocker, you know. So, he traveled all over the world and kind of they would leave little nuggets behind. And as a result, their organization grew and became somewhat worldwide. And, you know, then after 9-11, all those organizations got classified as terrorists. Right. And it just went in a completely different direction.

And, you know, he ended up doing some time and, you know, for what he believed in. for what he believed in. But really just a solid guy and loyal and super smart and like rigidly, like, you know, those dudes that have that kind of focus. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Where you just go, wow. Yeah, he can just hone in on it.

Yeah, I know he's friends with my boy, John Joseph, who's from that world as well. Yeah, he knows everybody. Yeah, yeah. Like I'll, you know, I'll walk into Crossroads, you know. Yeah, well, that's like the Mecca for all that. It really is. Hardcore, like, you know, Toby Morse.

Yep. He's part of that kind of world as well. And I know Travis really well. And I usually go and meet Travis there. And every time I go, Elgin's there with somebody else. you know what I mean? Like some other player, you know? Well, it's weird because it's such a fancy, you know, fancy vegan restaurant and like all these super intense, like hardcore straight edge punk rock guys. Like that's like their clubhouse. It is. It is. And it's really good. And I know you had Travis on and I love that dude.

Yeah, he's amazing. He's an amazing guy. And I just, I like, you know, I try to have lunch with him at least once or twice a year just to, you know, get a little bit of what he's got. You know what I mean? And it's so funny, the last time I had lunch with him, his dad, he brought his dad along. And I love that. It was just sort of like, my dad's in town, and his dad he brought his dad along and i love that it was just sort of like my dad's in town and he and his dad was at the table and uh you know it's at first you're like

oh okay what what's the like how do i and then like he's just he's just so real and like so open that within 10 minutes like you know his dad just became part of that dynamic and didn't say a whole lot. But it was sort of like, wow, that's like, I don't know if I would have the capacity to trust my own, you know, social interaction skill to drop somebody into that situation who did. You know what I mean? And then just incorporate them into the whole conversation. Right. Without it being like a lot of legwork beforehand. Yeah. Yeah. And, and, and, you know, and then you, you embrace it. And then by the time you're done, you're like, he just took a, you know, he made it a completely different

experience without intending to. Do you know what I mean? Like, what do you mean by that? Just by, by like providing the space for his dad to just be there comfortably? Yeah, like it was just there and it was, yeah. And, and, and his dad, you know, really sweet guy and, and didn't chime in much. And, and, you know, we, Travis would go out of his way to include him when, you know, when it made sense. But it was just, you know, it was just like, oh, we're just, it was like, oh, I'm just sitting here with a member of your family and you and us engaging in him being part of it. and him being part of it so that, you know, I realized that it, you know, I had to make the adjustment in terms of, like, not thinking that I had to then change how I interacted with him because of that. You know what I mean?

Yeah. So it made it a different experience for me so that when I was done, I was like, oh, that was really, you know, that was really cool. That would be a situation that normally might make me uncomfortable. Like, oh, how do I include this guy? And because, you know, Travis is just so bloody there and real and his dad is kind of the same way, that it was like you have no choice but to kind of let it become what it's supposed to become, you know, so that, you know, by the end it was like, well, that was awesome. You know, there was no like, oh, you know, I guess what I go to is trying to do that with my old man, like when he was living, just would be a different. It wouldn't have worked out that way. It would be a different circumstance. Well, I think it speaks to, you know, like, look, Travis is a, you know, he's a sensitive artist, but he's very, he knows who he is and he's totally comfortable with that. Yes.

He doesn't, he's not, he's not going to try to make other people, you know, feel like go out of his way to be somebody else to make other people comfortable. Right. But to be able to embody that in a tricky social context is another thing. Right. Yeah. And just, you know, I guess, cause it's often, you know, parental inclusion into things can be a loaded dynamic. Right. And the fact that he loves his dad and, and this is just part of his day, um, you know, it was just sort of that energy. And you're like, oh, okay. That was just the, you know, his dad was here and his dad is going to be part of his day.

Whatever Travis is doing today, dad will be part of it. And I was part of that thing. You know what I mean? And I just, you know, I just, I was like, no, I couldn't do that with my old man. No, it wasn't going to happen. Well, I want to hear more about that. But before we do that, I think, like, it's interesting you bring up Travis because you guys are, I mean, you're very different people. But there's similarities that I see in you guys in that you have this kind of public persona that's all about like, it's sort of like a tough guy, you know, like, you know, I got things figured out

and, you know, don't cross me, you know, arms crossed kind of thing that Travis has. But then you talk to him and he's like the sweetest guy and he wears his emotions on his sleeve. And he, like you said, he's totally present. And with you, like, because I've known you as long as I have, you know, and I know you outside the context of Hollywood, I see like your public persona and I see kind of

what you put out, you know, on Twitter and the like, and that's changed, that's evolved, certainly. Like, I want to explore that with you. But there's such a, to me, I'm like, these look like two different people. Like, Because the Kurt I know is like this really sweet, kind, giving, present, family guy, dad, you know, husband, you know, always there, you know, to be of support or with a hug. And then I see like some of the, you know, some of the spats that you get into that end up, you know, turning into these things and stuff that gets written. I was like, I had to see, he's like, wait, who's that guy? Yeah. You know? Yeah.

Yeah. I would say that, unfortunately. We don't have to talk about this if you don't want to. No, no, no. I would say that, unfortunately, they both are me. Yeah. Meaning, you know, I. Of course. Meaning, you know, I, you know, but I will say that I, you know, you know, I, I, I used to lead perhaps a way to say it is I used to lead with that.

Right. I used to lead with, you know, my very accessible anger. Right. And because it worked for me. Right. very accessible anger, right? And because it worked for me, right? It sort of was creatively, it's sort of what I was known for. And then after a while, and yes, it definitely got me in trouble

on more than one occasion, but also- It's exciting. It's exciting. And it left, you know, and for better or for worse, It definitely got me in trouble on more than one occasion. But also. It's exciting. It's exciting. And it left, you know, and for better or for worse, that's, you know, people remembered it, right? But then I think what ended up happening is I just got boring. You know what I mean? Because what ends up happening is you think, oh, I have to then.

When you get to the place where you feel like you need to sustain it or drum it up, that's when you realize now it's bullshit, you know? And I think I just reached that point where I wasn't, you know, perhaps that angry anymore, or I didn't have to push back as much because I had, you know, a track record of success. Yeah. So I wasn't constantly, you know, in warrior mode. Mm-hmm. And then, so, and, you know, and then I realized, well, I can't, that's, to sort of lead with that then becomes bullshit.

Well, it becomes a character then. Exactly, exactly. And my perspective on it is that- Yeah, what's your perspective? Well, it's probably much better than mine. You know, look, at times it was salacious. And like I said, it was exciting, but it was always rooted in truth.

Like you were in a certain respect, like it was speaking truth to power. Like it was always like coming, there was always like some aspect of what you were saying was something that needed to be said and something that a lot of other people also observed, but for a variety of reasons, just were never gonna say that thing.

Right, right. Like you had the balls, you had the courage, you had the maybe short-sightedness at certain times to go, hey, wait a minute. Like, this is bullshit. Like, we got to call this out. So I always felt like it came from a genuine place. It did, yeah. But there's a, like, stirring the pot thing. probably early, mid Sons of Anarchy, where you're trying to make your stamp on the world and,

you know, trying to make sure that people were kind of seeing this project that you were birthing in the way that you wanted it to be seen, right? Yeah, I think that's true. I mean, it was never, it was never disingenuous, right? It was never like bullshit. You know, there were times where I definitely, you know, intentionally, you know. Provocateur. Yeah, you know, and poked a few eyeballs, right? But it was never, it was always rooted in something that I felt strongly about. And I think what happened is that I felt comfortable enough, or perhaps

I was careless enough to, you know, rattle that cage and say things that perhaps other people may have felt but wouldn't necessarily either have the balls or perhaps, you know, were too smart to say. So that was, you know, that was definitely part of it early on. And it was always, you know, anger was always a survival tool for me, right? So it was about channeling that piece of me into something that perhaps could serve me better than throwing a fist at somebody, right? So, and, you know, it definitely, you know, it definitely got me into trouble. Some, you know, early on. But it created a lot of notoriety too.

Yeah, and I can't deny that. There was a lot of attention, you know, on you. I mean, it was like, you know, what's, you know, like you would tweet something and there'd be a whole, like Nikki Fink would write, a whole article about it. It'd be some deadline piece. Right. About what you said. And perhaps whether proper or improper, speaking out about something I really believed in, you know, not that I wasn't aware of the impact it would have.

But I think what happened is I got to a place where I was just sort of like, do I really believe that? Or is that me just trying to, you know, is that me reading my own press coin pickings and thinking I had something to sustain? And that's when it's sort of like, and you know, like anything else, you, you, uh, I don't know if, you know, mature may be too strong of a word, but, uh, you realize that you don't have to work so hard at it anymore. You know, and I think that's what happened to me is that people understood who I was. People, there was, you know, respect for what I did and I didn't have to swing so hard to do what I wanted to do, you know. And not that I don't occasionally take a punch now or swing at something, because I do, but I think, you know, over time, it just, I had to take a look at, well, what is, you know, what is me? When am I trying to just be controversial for the sake of being controversial?

When am I trying to just be controversial for the sake of being controversial? And when am I using my notoriety to, at the very least, express something that, you know, upsets me or I think is dubious or whatever? Yeah. I mean, I've noticed that you're not afraid to speak up when something moves you. I mean, you wrote a piece about Harvey Weinstein. You wrote a piece about, like, the Google anti-piracy thing. Like there are moments that you've chosen where you're like, okay, I'm gonna speak my piece on this.

You know, you did a thing about on the eve of the Trump election or in the wake of that. But like I checked your, I mean, you used to write a lot on your blog. And like, I think the last entry on your blog was like 2013 or something like that. Like you just cut that off. You know, what happened is, is really, it's the power of, uh, Twitter and, and, um, just became a much more, uh, uh, powerful tool,

you know, then really, you know, because for a while the blog was, uh, was my only means of kind of putting it out there. Do you know what I mean? And then I, whether, you know, and I still would write pieces, but most of the pieces I wrote after that were for specific things, not so much for my own blog. Do you know what I mean? But, um, uh, yeah, it was just, I think it was, you know, just the shift in, in how to best, um, engage an audience. And then it really became about, you know, uh, you know, uh, uh, Twitter and then ultimately, uh, Instagram, you know? Uh, and then I just, I also got tired. Yeah. Well, I think like, I'm trying to figure out whether, you know, I hesitate to use the word like the mellowing, you know, because I'm not sure that's accurate. But on some level, either you have worked through some of these anger issues and you have a healthier relationship with your emotional landscape, or you just feel like you're understood and heard,

and so you don't feel that you can, like, sublimate those impulses that you still have. I think it's a little bit of both. I hope there's been some growth over the last 10 years. I hope so, too. No, I think there has been. You know, I think kids will do that to you. You know, I think kids will do that to you. And look, you know, I think you – success creates a certain amount of personal security. You know what I mean?

That you don't, you know, the fear impulse that drives me, I think, subsided as, you know, the work spoke for itself, right? So I didn't feel like I had, you know, failure chomping at, you know, at my back. You're on the third show that you've created. You have this amazing relationship with FX and, you know, you know, they have your back, even though you get into scruffs with them, like, you know, I would hope that you could like breathe a little bit. Yeah. I mean, yeah. So there's definitely feeling like, um, you know, I have the network, uh, and by network, not necessarily FX, but the network of people around me that know who I am and can support that and protect me. And so it's, you know, it's definitely, you know, that has, you know, changed my approach.

And, you know, it's also, you know, it's a different landscape now too, man. You know, it's a much more, you know, what you say and what you do, you know, the public perception is so mercurial right now. And, you know, I would be foolish if I didn't check myself. You got a lot to lose. Yeah, you know. And or just, you know, know that, you know, sending out all those crazy tweets about the Emmys, right, that, you know, I was alone in my office cracking myself up. And then they were all picked up. And I got a call from my wife saying, are you going insane?

What's happening? People are freaking out. And I'm like, what the fuck are you talking about? And then I just realized, oh, my God, they're like they're all being picked up. And people think I'm sitting there with a gun in my mouth, you know? And I was like, that was when I realized, oh. Tone can be misconstrued. Yeah.

So. That was a little bit of a tirade though. Yeah, it was definitely a tirade, but I was, I was cracking myself up, but apparently no one else. So, you know, I have, you know, I definitely, you know, have that historical awareness. But, you know, it's but yeah, it's it's definitely it's a different it's a different landscape, you know. It's a different landscape in a lot of ways. I mean, yeah, one false move and you're done. It's like, I think there's a climate of like,

you kind of have to make sure that you're really paying attention to how you behave in a public forum. And with somebody with your profile, I would imagine that has to play on your conscious a little bit in terms of how you navigate the treacherous waters of social media. And I think, you know, it's also, I think the landscape of television has changed tremendously since, you know, The Shield and even, and even, you know, Sons of Anarchy. It's like, you know, I know this term gets thrown around

pretty casually, but it really is this amazing golden age. Like there's this incredible content out there. And, you know, the quality of programming in television is just, it's unprecedented. And as a storyteller, I would imagine that, you know, it's exciting for you because it seems like from somebody who's not in that world, that there's a lot of freedom to explore storytelling in a longer

format that can breathe in this, you know, sort of binge culture that we're now in. No, it's really true. I think, you know, it's interesting. It's, you know, I've definitely rattled cages even at FX along the way and but Landgraf

always kind of had your he's kind of been your hero from the beginning but you guys get into it yeah you know

you can only call a guy a cunt so many times before he he has to sit you down and say you know look I think he said

like he said like you know he pulls out the Jerry Maguire line like like, let me help you. Like, help me help you, Kurt. Come on. So there's definitely been, you know, some of that along the way. But I do.

I love John. I consider him a friend. But, yeah, it's, you know, the landscape now is, you know, it's really changed, you know. And now, you know, like I just, with the onset of Mayans and I just, you know, it made sense to re-up my deal at 20th. And then my first look is at FX. So you have like a multi-year overall deal. It's a three-year deal. Yeah.

And, you know, it's the first time I had to, you know, with, you know, the potential of the Disney ownership looming, it's the first time I had a sit down before anything was signed where, you know, I was given a talking to and not so much, you know, uh, I mean, clearly, uh, you know, I've mellowed to a certain extent and, and, but they know me well enough. Yeah. So Disney's a whole other deal. Yeah. And it was, and it wasn't so much about don't be yourself as much as don't be stupid, you know? And at that point, I got it. And I have tremendous respect for Dana Walden, who I also consider a friend, and John Landgraf. And it was, you know,

it was that conversation. But even, you know, even though it was a supportive and we love you kind of a meeting, the fact that the meeting still took place suggests. So people got together and said, we need to, we need to, we should probably get in touch with Kurt and sit down with him. Well, look, what they're doing, quite honestly, and, you know, and I don't blame them, right, is they're doing the due diligence of saying, you know, we did our part in terms of letting this artist know what the perhaps new rules of engagement are, right? perhaps new rules of engagement are, right? And so that, you know, to a certain extent, they're protected if I, you know, go off the rails. But it's also, it's interesting. It's like, like I said, and it was a very, you know, it was a very sort of friendly and supportive conversation, right?

But the fact that we had to have that conversation really suggests a shift in the paradigm, you know what I mean? And look, I, you know, everything kind of happens for, I believe everything sort of happens for a reason and that, you know, all the stuff that's happening now in Hollywood and other industries, you know, had to happen, has to happen. And from it, what will shake loose, I think, is perhaps a safer and healthier, you know, landscape. But this is, you know, this is the battle. This is where people get bloody and make mistakes.

And this is the time when things get – everything – We're in that in-between phase. Yeah. We're shaking it all up to see what it's supposed to look like. There's, you know, there's going to have to be a lot of casualties along the way before we see our way clear of the old paradigm and into the new paradigm. I mean, you worked with Weinstein on Southpaw, right? Like, what was your experience with him? You know, I never had a face-to-face with Harvey.

There was several email exchanges and they were all very, you know, friendly. You know, it was really about, excuse me, it was really about when we were beginning to promote the movie and asking me to, you and, uh, and things like that. And, uh, um, you know, basically, um, it was, you know, how much can I get you to do for free kind of a thing. And, and I, you know, and I, and I got that and I did as, as much as I could do, I couldn't travel to promote, but I, you know, I did a couple of WGA things. But it was, you know, he was very supportive of the movie. And look, Antoine's a friend of mine. And we, you know, there was a lot of negotiation, you know, there were rewrites on that movie, on on Southpaw that, you know, didn't work. And so it was, you know, it was this sort of creative covert op that would happen.

I would get home from Suns and I would sit down with him at like from 10 till 2 in the morning going through pages, writing stuff for the next day. And that basically, I think, just became an outline because my whole argument for arbitration when it came down to who got credit because there was like they brought in two or three other writers. My whole argument for arbitration was they didn't follow any script. So by default, did she go back to me? And that works. And it's the truth. You got sole credit on that so you got soul credit i got soul credit and it's and it's true like there was whatever you know it was it was the heart of basically the original draft which is what antoine loved and wanted to make um but as far as actual

words on the page it would be like i'd be where's, where is that? Which movie is this? But, you know, and it was like one of my, and, you know, my agents and my lawyer, you know, they've not had great experience with arbitration for clients. And they're like, look, don't, you know, don't expect, you know. Don't, you know, don't expect, you know. And it ended up turning around being one of the quickest arbitrations because my argument was so simple. And really, there was no documentation of any draft that became the, when TV, it's called an as broad in terms of what was actually said, right? So they were like, oh, you got a point. Right. You couldn't track it back to anyone else. Right. So they were like, Oh, you got a point. Right. You couldn't track it

back to any, anyone else. Right. So because the, the movie was mine and the original script and concept was mine, it just sort of by default went back to sole credit. Yeah. And, uh, um, which, you know, uh, uh, you know, was as far as they were concerned, was the first time anyone ever used that tactic. Yeah. I'd be interested to know whether anybody has used it since, since it was so effective. But the,

the, you know, the story behind that movie is pretty interesting. I mean, originally this was an idea that you had that you worked with Marshall Mathers, Eminem. Yeah. He was going to start,

he was, this was going to be his eight mile follow-up. Yeah, it really was. It was, they came to me, uh, early on and, um, uh, and, uh, this was before Antoine was around and, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, you know, um, Marshall's, um, producing team and, uh, um, uh, and they wanted to do a remake of the champ. And I was like, don't do a remake of the champ. And, uh, and then it's when I pitched, let's, let's do like, let's continue telling his story through the analogy of boxing right so the continuation of his life you know so when proof was killed it's sort of when you know the wife was killed so it's you literally taking the paradigm of what happened to him uh and then using that as you know sort of the the story uh uh you know the story uh, the story, uh, paradigm, right. So, uh, and they loved that idea.

And then we pitched it around and it ended up, uh, with, uh, Stacey Snyder when she was at DreamWorks and they loved the idea. And at that point, Marshall was on board in his team. And, uh, and then we were, uh, then we sat down and we're interviewing or met with directors and, you know, and Antoine came in and, uh, you know, Antoine, obviously, you know, a lot of success with training day and, um, but had kind of lost his way a little bit in terms of, well, that's not fair to say, um, in terms of studio successes, right? We're still, you know, looking for that groove. And I had worked with Antoine previously on a project that I had written for Warners and that didn't go, but became friends with him. And he came into this pitch, like living the story. Like he grew up, I think he grew up in Philly and, you know, boxing kind of saved his life. So, you know, it was really, it became this sort of personal story for him.

And that really impressed me and Stacy and all of Marshall's people. And we locked him down. Locked him down and, you know, and then as things happened, Marshall, you know, at that point I think was clean and sober. And I think reevaluating whether or not he wanted to get into a circumstance that, you know, 8 Mile kind of fucked him up, you know. I think Curtis Hanson kind of put him through the wringer. I think Curtis Hanson kind of put him through the ringer. And I think he, you know, this is just my speculation, but that he didn't know if he wanted to risk new sobriety on that circumstance again. And I kind of understood it, right?

So it went at the turnaround. And then Harvey came around and liked the story and liked it for Jake. And about a year and a half later or so that came back around and, uh, I met with Jake and, uh, uh, I think, uh, I've told this story. Uh, I know the story, you know, the story. Should I tell that story? Just tell it cause it's good. Uh, because, uh, uh, my, uh, my relationship with Jake prior to that was, uh, um, we had lived, we were living in the hills and, uh, um, Hollywood Hills and, uh, someone moved into a house like across from us. So there's a big ravine, right? So I don't know how many hundreds of yards between our houses, but, uh, somebody moved in and, and then for two nights in a row, somebody was out there like building, like banging hammers to like, you know, like, you know, like, you know, like, you know, like, you know, like, you know, like, you know, like, you know, like, you know, like, you know, like, you know, like, you know, like, you know, like, you know, like, you know, like, you know, like, you know, like, you know, like, you know, like, you know, like, you know, like, you know, like, you know, like, you know, like, you know, like, you know, like, you know, like, you know, like, you know, like, you know, like, you know, like, you know, like, you know, like, you know, like, you know, like, you know, like, you know, like, you know, like, you know, like, you know, like, you know, like, you know, like, you know, like, you know, like, you know, like, you know, like, you know, like, you know, like, you know, like, you know, like, you know, like, you know, like, you know, like, you know, like, you know, like, you know, like, you know, like, you know, like, you know, like, you know, like, you know, like, you know, like, you know, like there like building, like banging hammers to like, you know, midnight, right? And by the third night, I'm screaming, you know, hey,

you think maybe, you know, you can fucking chill the fucking home improvement. It's like, you know, 11 o'clock at night and I'm screaming and all I hear is a pause and okay. Right. So then like three or four days later, there's a knock on my door and I open the door and it's Jake. Yeah. And he's like, yeah, I just want to retell. I just moved into the house and we share some mutual property that we need to trim trees. And I'm sitting to him listening and he's talking. I went, were you the guy?

And he's like, yeah, that was me. I'm like, of course it was. So that was Jake's introduction to me foundation of this relationship when the prospect of him like starring in this movie that you wrote that you really wanted for eminem right comes up so but the second part of that i think is just as like sort of entertaining yeah so we sit down and uh um and so you know after that, we left. And, you know, then we were in contact with him because we shared a property line and we had done all this work. It's like rich white guy Hollywood problems.

Yeah, really. It really is. It's like, oh, the trees are too, the trees are overgrowing. My movie star neighbor. Like, you know. It was. It was that. that cry me a river and uh uh and he was a lovely guy and and and really you know uh uh i really you know uh had

a good sense of humor about my rage uh so and then uh over time he had actually moved i think by the time this project came up but that was our know, that was the basis of our relationship. And when Harvey said that he really liked Jake for this project, like, to me, it was so hard for me to wrap my head around anybody but Marshall doing it because it was written for him, about him. It was, you know, and it was based on his life, you know, granted, you know, an analogy. And but so I couldn't like, couldn't wrap my brain around it. And so I was, you know, I was like, it's not, I don't get it. It's not going to work. And when I met Jake, you know, he was a lovely guy.

it. It's not going to work. And when I met Jake, you know, he was a lovely guy and he had a really, it was interesting because he had his perspective on who the character was. And in that meeting, I found myself creatively like tensing up, like, that's not who he is, you know? And then, and then I don't know what happened. I think it was just like enough time had passed and I perhaps wasn't so, you know, immediately invested in every word, uh, which is probably a good thing considering none of my words ended up in it. But, uh, I think I was just, I just, something happened and I, and there was a shift and I suddenly went, oh, that's what you think it is, right? And I was able to realize, of course, you know, everyone is entitled to their interpretation of it, right? And what I realized is that he was a really smart cat, right? He wasn't like, you know, he was a really smart guy.

And I think really understood the character in a way that perhaps I wasn't able to see it, right? He was looking at it from a different way. 80% of my year was buried in the show, that I realized that Jake and Antoine knew this character better than I did. Like they understood. And once Marshall's not involved anymore, you can unshackle yourself from the limitations of it having to be his story. Exactly. And allowing it to be something else. And that was hard. Creatively, it was hard. I'm very, you know,

look, I'm very proprietary over my stuff and, and because I, you know, I'm not a casual writer. Do you know what I mean? Like I spend a lot of time and energy and investment in every word and every action that's in a script. Right. So, but I realized that, uh, I, you know, that these two men, Jake and Antoine at that point, really knew this movie better than I did. And I had to be willing to let that go and support it as best as I could. And I did with rewrites and, you know, and most of my rewrites, I think, were about, you know, guiding them in the context of what the whole story became, you know. And then I think a lot of it just really became improvisational once they understood that. It was just basically protecting the arc of the piece because I think that's what Antoine, you know, is an amazing shooter. but I think what Antoine needs help with sometimes is remembering, you know, how each scene is layered

into the overall arc of the piece, right? And that's what I think I was able to provide and ultimately let it become what it was supposed to become, you know? Yeah, well, I mean, I enjoyed it. You know, I don't know what your perspective is on the finished product, but I think, you know, first of all,

you gotta have huge balls to even attempt a boxing movie because of the history of boxing movies and all the tropes that are kind of built into that. Like, how do you say something unique and do something compelling in that genre when there's so many outstanding examples? It seems like everything's sort of been explored and done. Yeah.

But I felt like it merged kind of what you expect, like the best of what that genre has to offer, while also inverting it by throwing some, you know, curveballs at you that, like, you don't see coming. Plus, like, Jake was super ripped in that movie. I know. Like, I don't know how he got that fit, but it was insane. Well, it's interesting. interesting i i you know i wasn't that involved in in in the actual production but i was i did as much as i could prior to in terms of rewrites and and being available and and then as it was being shot you know my late night rendezvous with uh uh with antoine in terms of revisions and stuff like that because it was like a covert ops yeah piece you know and it's like i don't think people

understand like what an all-consuming full-time job like being a showrunner is like, I can't believe that you had any bandwidth whatsoever to do anything outside of that. Well, at that point I was invested. I really, you know, look, it's still my only, you know, feature credit. And, and I really wanted to feel like, like the thought of abandoning it at that point felt wrong. So I felt like I wanted to support Antoine and Jake and contribute what I could. So, yeah, it really became when I came home from, you know, my day job, putting as much energy as I possibly could into that, you know. And look, it wasn't, you know, it was like a, you know, it was a quick shoot, right? You know, in terms of being however many days, 30 days, maybe 40 days. But, no, I'm, you know, I think Jake did a great job.

And, look, I think they leaned into, you know, a lot of tropes that I probably would have tried to avoid. a lot of tropes that I probably would have tried to avoid, but also, you know, I had to trust that, you know, I guess there's a, there is an expectation, uh, being a boxing movie for those mile markers you have to reach, you know, what fans expect or whatever. But, uh, uh, so, you know, I had mixed feelings about it, but ultimately, you know, I felt like Antoine did a great job. I felt like Jake. Yeah, I remember when I met Jake, he was doing Nightcrawler. So he was like that big, you know. He was really, he was lean.

And I thought, you know, middleweight, I don't know, you know. And then the next time I saw him was in New York and maybe six weeks later. And he was a beast already. In six weeks? In six weeks. But he's just one of those guys, like he's a natural athlete. And he's just one of those dudes that, you know, I personally hate who can like drop and shred. And he was, when I saw him, he was a beast. And, you know, is a natural athlete. So I think he was, you know, had moved along at a rate faster than, I forget, Terry was his name. I forget Terry's last name, who was training him. training him. And, you know, I think even Terry was sort of stunned at his level of how quickly, you know, and it's just who he is, you know. And, you know, I think he created a really interesting character. He was kind of, you know, barbaric, you know, and in a way that I had never seen him before. So I really admired his performance, you know, and it was beautiful. I loved the way Antoine shot it. So, you know, I was able to sort of, I remember I watched it. I was in London doing Bastard at the time and ended up going to the Soho house in Soho, went and went to their private screening room and watched it with, I think, Katie and just

Sarah and Jackson at the time. And we just, you know, had a private screening and, you know, ultimately, you know, it came out of that feeling like, okay, I'm glad my name's on it. You know, I didn't write much of it, but I'm glad my name's on it. It's such a weird thing, right? Like you're this, I mean, you know, like the average person would look at that and just assume you wrote every word in that movie and that's not how it works. And I think it speaks to kind of a broader issue that I want to get into with you, which is like, how do you, you know, navigate being a creative person, being an artist, you know, being somebody who's passionate about the work that they do in a construct in which it's a team sport, really. And, you know, I know you well enough to know that, like, you're a guy who likes to lock yourself in

a room and, like, do your thing. And, you know, people, if you can avoid people, you're going to avoid people, you know? And it's so funny that the universe has thrown you, you know, this life in which not only do you have to collaborate with people, like you have to be like the general and the soldier. Like you have to be the practitioner and the architect of everything that you do. So I can't imagine very many other jobs where you have to be more enmeshed with people than what you do. So it's like, I would imagine there was a learning curve with that. And I think it also, kind of ancillary to that is how do you maintain the vision for what you're trying to accomplish while also allowing that space to be in gratitude and in surrender and like empower all these people

that are talented in their own right to be expressive. All right. Now, you know, I, it's, it's interesting that I, you know, I was never, you know, I'm a late bloomer, right? Like I didn't figure shit out till, you know, I was in my early 40s, right? I mean, some of it was going back to grad school. You and me both, brother. You know. And I went back to grad school in my early 30s and was going to teach in direct theater. And it was in grad school I started writing. And, you know, that sort of then dictated my path.

So there was this really – this very long circuitous path that led me to what I'm doing. And I have, you know, obviously a lot of gratitude for that, but, you know, prior to that, anything I had written, like the concept of draft never entered my mind, right? Like I would produce something and if you didn't, you know, think it was, you know, the most potent and brilliant thing you'd have ever written, you'd ever read, then clearly it was a piece of shit. Uh-huh. So, you know. Just a binary thing. Yeah.

So, the fact that I, my career became something that has to embrace the concept of draft is, you know, is definitely, you know, in a bigger picture, you know, the lesson that I had to learn, right? Because I was then, to be successful, I had to be willing to let people share an opinion about what was wrong with something I was doing and take it to heart, try to figure out what was useful, you know, what I could throw away and how to apply what they said to make something better. And clearly there was a learning curve doing that. But that, you know, that perhaps was the biggest hurdle. And I was able to get through a lot of that in just trying to write features so that by the time I got to The Shield, you know, then I didn't have a choice, right? Because I would write drafts and I would get notes from my showrunner and from other writers.

And, you know, I may push back for stuff I believed in, but ultimately I couldn't say, fuck you, write it yourself. Well, you were like a junior at Junior – the first year at junior – yeah. I was a staff writer, yeah. Right, season one of The Shield. So I was – you know, you start out at the bottom and – but it was interesting. I was – and I always tell this story. My buddy, Scott Rosenbaum, was also the other staff writer on that show. And I had never written in TV before.

I never pursued TV. And I liked TV. And my agents were like, you know, you should write some specs. And, you know, so I got this gig after, you know, a couple seasons of trying to pursue TV work. Well, you wrote like a crazy spec script, an Ally McBeal spec script. Yeah. A West Wing spec script. Yeah, I wrote a crazy Ally McBeal, like, you know, it's so funny you remember that.

Like an S&M Ally McBeal. It's like I can't even imagine your voice in that framework. And then like a West Wing where, you know, eight-year-old were shooting, unfortunately somewhat prescient in terms of like what ultimately happened. But... And are you trying to like adopt some kind of Sorkin-esque like meter when you write dialogue in that or are you just being yourself?

I couldn't, you know, what I tried to do in terms of the show was the rhythm, right? Because it had a fast rhythm. I don't, you know, I think it's impossible to, it's like trying to imitate Mamet, right? Because it had a fast rhythm. I don't, you know, I think it's impossible to, it's like trying to imitate Mamet, right? It's really difficult to try to mirror or ape that rhythm, you know? But I did sort of understand the dynamic of who the characters were and what the relationships were. Um, but that, that, uh, West Wing was, uh, what got me the job on the shield. Cause at that point, that's what you

did to get a job. You wrote a spec of a, of a successful show. Um, and, uh, um, you know, so, but the interesting thing is I started that job and I had never written on a TV show, nor did I, luckily, didn't really know the rules, right? Like, I got the show and I, there was a contract that was for seven years, right? And I just thought, like, oh, okay. So, you know, if the show continues, I'll keep working. What I didn't know is that, you know, each season your option had to be picked up, right? And a lot of times if you go into a gig, if you have two staff writers, a lot of times, you know, only one of them makes the jump. So my buddy, Scott Rosenbaum, had written on TV shows before and was aware of that dynamic.

Scott Rosenbaum had written on TV shows before and was aware of that dynamic. So I remember showing up and I just remembered, God, this guy is so fucking competitive, man. Yeah, he's going to bury you. Yeah. And so, and I was just sort of taken back by it. And then, of course, I realized, you know, how competitive I was myself, right? So then, but it wasn't about the job. It was about, well, fuck this. It just became about the idea. And it wasn't until really as the season was winding down that I became aware that my option had to be picked up.

And as big of a shock that was in terms of, why didn't anybody tell me that? And I realized, well, it's a blessing that nobody told me that because had I known that, it may have shifted my dynamic into a much more sort of defensive or judging everything I was saying or looking at all my relationships differently. And the ego. Yeah. And I was able just to sort of be myself and, and let my, you know, my warped sense of storytelling kind of flourish, you know, and, and really found my voice on that, on that show, you know. I want to explore kind of like, you know, your experience on the shield and how that led to Sons and everything that's happened since. But I think we should, let's step it back because I want to, you know, I want to know, I want to understand like how this Kurt Sutter guy came to be, right? Like there's an interesting kind of backstory here that is the engine behind all of this growing up in New Jersey. Right, right. You want the sad fat kid story. Okay. No, not really.

But I do, like, first of all, like 400 pounds, like in high school, it's super hard for me to see that. Yeah. hard for me to see that. Yeah. You know, grew up in like a suburb Jersey, the town, I grew up in a town called Clark. I usually say Raleway because I lived like, you know, five blocks from the Raleway border and people knew Raleway because of the prison and scared straight. So it was just easier and it sounded more badass. Yeah, I think on IMDB it says, like, you know, grew up in the shadow of the raw. It's like, it sounds so melodramatic. I know, yeah.

I was so proud of that. But, you know, I was already marketing myself, you know, my first year on the show. But so, you know, grew up in really sort of, you know, middle class suburbia and, you know, was, you know, in hindsight I look at it now and realize it's, you know, it was the youthful manifestation of my isms, you know, of my, uh, alcoholism and, and my, uh, my holes, so to speak. Um, but I, uh, you know, from an early age, uh, you know, I was just this uber sensitive dude and, uh, and I didn't, nobody was mixing me cocktails at, you know, at three, four, and five. And it became, you know, food really became my, you know, anesthetic. And, you know, and so my weight gain was sort of proportional to life, right?

So the more responsibility life demanded of me, the bigger I got. The responsibility life demanded of me, the bigger I got to the point where, you know, I was, you know, I say over 400 pounds because the scale didn't go past 400 when I was 19, you know. So, and I lost some weight in high school. I dropped like 60 pounds. My mom, God bless her, you know, sent me to like one of the diet clubs and I dropped some weight, but then quickly put that back on and another 50. And, you know, and then I went to college, went to Rutgers. And, you know, my first year all I did was party and, you know, put on another 50 pounds of beer weight, right? And, of course, didn't go to class,

so ended up dropping out of Rutgers and going to junior college. But I don't know. There was something that happened, I think. I just, and I, you know, I tell this in a humorous way because it's funny, but it's really, ultimately, I think it's probably the truth, which was, you know, I realized at 400 pounds I wasn't going to get laid, right? And not because women, you know, didn't like me. It's because, you know, they could die. So I fall on top of them. But like to get up to that size, I mean, my, you know, the impression that I got from kind of like, you know,

looking into the background of your story is, you know, baby boomer parents, you know, dad kind of is that emotionally detached dude. You know, we all know that guy. You know, mom, you know, mom begins to deal with that by drinking a little bit of herself. And so then that becomes an emotional removal for you. Right, right. And it's like, all right, well, where are you going to turn now? Yeah.

Right? And so it's all right. It's like food. And then it's no surprise that it's booze. Right. You're ballooning up. And when does like, I mean, the first thing that kind of comes in in terms of like your salvation is like this interest in acting, right?

Right. Writing doesn't come until much later. Yeah, I think it was, yeah, I, and like I said, yeah I and like I said I I think when I you know there was a certain amount of denial one has when they're

younger right and then I think I just hit the wall at 19 where I realized you know is that you know this it didn't you know like I always describe you know, this, it didn't, you know, like I always describe, you know, it's like, I, I was like the, you know, I was like, I had the,

the personality of James Dean in the body of Paul Prudhomme, right? Like it just didn't fucking work. Right. You know? Yeah. And so like a super handsome dude, like stuck in this other guy's body. So I just, you know, and then, you know, I, you know, I'm really on my own, you know, sort of flip the switch. And of course, you know, there's a healthy component to it, but there's also an unhealthy component to it in terms of, you know, that's when I really started relying on alcohol to take the edge off instead of food. You know, and, you know, I look at my alcoholism and my drug addiction

and my food addiction as being so enmeshed in my 20s, it's hard to even pull them apart, right? Because when I wasn't doing one, I was doing the other, right? Right. Well, it's all the same thing. You have this, like, you know, discontentedness, this sense of like not wanting to feel the way that you feel and you're going to reach for whatever's in front of you. Yeah. It really is. Indiscriminately. Yeah. And you know, so I, you know, I dropped, you know, and look, I was at an age where, and you know uh i dropped you know and look i was at an age where and you know the interesting thing

is and uh as heavy as i was i was always like an athletic kid like i played baseball i love basketball you know so i was the kid playing full court basketball at 400 pounds you know uh you know it's amazing i have like you, knees at this point. But so, like, the exercise component was easy for me. So when I, you know, made the decision to drop weight, I, you know, exercise became a big tool. And then ultimately, you know, you abuse that too, right? you, you know, you abuse that too, right? And, but, you know, so I got down to, you know, I dropped like 180 pounds,

190 or 190 pounds. And in, you know, like nine months. Wow. So just by just being like a beast on the Stairmaster or whatever on the treadmill and like, you know, I mean, is there like- Restrictive, restrictive, you know, like- Is cocaine involved in that or like- Well, there was, you know, cocaine ultimately became my maintenance tool. You know what I mean? But initially it was really, you know, it became this like, how little can I eat and still sort of do what i need to do right yeah and uh like a

control thing that's absolutely you know yeah in and of itself it's it's it was you know it was a form of you know anorexia and then ultimately exercising became the bulimic part of that right so you know look i it it it happened the way it happened and it had to, to a certain extent, and it wasn't necessarily the healthiest process. But, you know, I got away with it because I was now in the body of a normal looking dude, but I still had this head that was, you know, that whole skillset was built on, you know, being 400 pounds and just disconnected and living, you know, in a great deal of fantasy, right?

So, you know, that really became the struggle in my 20s, you know? Like maintaining the weight, I would sort of, you know, I sort of maintained anywhere between like, you know, 180 and 220. I was always sort of somewhere in that, you know, but it was all, you know, it all became about binge and purge and, you know, all the things that, all the different ways the ism manifests, you know what I mean? And still very much into not, you know, I wasn't a big drug guy. A lot, you know, cocaine was so prevalent in the 80s in New York where I was working. It was just part of the party lot, you know, cocaine was so prevalent in the 80s in New York where I was working,

it was just part of the party circuit, you know, but it was mostly alcohol and, you know, and that became, you know, my coping mechanism for, you know, until, you know, like all of us, it stops working. Yeah. It stops working, but it seems that you didn't have, it's not like you had some crazy flame out. Like it just sort of ran its course and you're like, I can't do this anymore. What was the bottom? Um, I think what happened was I look like I had, um, you know, my mom was alcoholic and I sort of had the blueprint, you know. I saw what my genetic predisposition was.

And I'm a guy who, you know, I kind of have to ride it out until it's completely beat up and done and drained. You know, even to this day, like working with defects of character, right? I got to try it every which way to make sure it really is a defect before I'm willing to go, okay, it doesn't work, right? So it was that kind of thing. So it was that kind of thing. And I think I remember, whine in her ear. And she, you know, pointed out that most people who aren't alcoholic, you know, don't struggle with the complexities and the angst of whether or not they're alcoholic. And I just was like, and like, that was so obvious. And yet such a brand new concept to me.

I was like, oh. And then I just became willing. And at that point I had moved back to New York. I was studying with my mentor, Catherine Gately, to teach in direct theater. And I was just, you know, I was willing to let it go. And then, of course, you know, you realize your bottom is not quite as high as you think it is, right? And that, you know, that'll be 25 years ago. Wow, that's amazing. So you just literally-

March something. You came in and that was it. Yeah, like I had tried to get sober on my own, you know, like I was dry for nine months, you know, and hadn't drank. And, you know, and then what happens is you pick up again and it's not a slow build again. You sort of pick up again and it's not a slow build again. You sort of pick up again and it's within weeks you're right back where you were and usually worse, right?

So, you know, it was so, you know, I was so aware of what I was doing and I just, you know, I became, you know, exhausted by my own process of trying to figure out, you know, how to get well, that I was just like, all right, I'll try it this way. Just intellectualizing it or looking for every other way of being able to, you know, continue to do what you do, but not feel the way that you feel. Exactly. Exactly. Yeah. Well, that's amazing. I mean, that's, it's do, but not feel the way that you feel. Exactly, exactly. Yeah, well, that's amazing. I mean, that's not the usual story. You know, with most people, it's less of a, you know, of a clean break like that or, you know, a linear path.

But now looking at it, like, knowing that there's the food aspect of it and then there's the drugs and alcohol part of it, like how do you manage like sort of recovery across those two different things? Because the solution is the same and yet it's, you know, is a clean break, right? So not that it was easy, you know, but, you know, in the food program, you know, over years anonymous, they talk about, you know, that, uh, if, uh, if the disease is a, is the tiger, you know, when you're sober, you can put the tiger in the cage, but with food, you have to take that tiger out and walk it three times a day. Right. So, um, you know, that, uh, is always been my, you know, uh, that to this day is the thing that, you know, I still struggle with, right?

Is, you know, is the main, you know, is maintaining that level of, you know, abstinence and, you know, you know, what is, you know, what's the normalcy in that process, you know? You know, because I'm, you know, and I don't, that's not a program I work anymore. And whether or not that's a good thing or a bad thing, I don't know. But, you know, it still can kick my ass on any given day, right? But, you know, it's, you know, the other program is the one that sort of, you know, is my daily tool for living. You know what I mean? Yeah. But, you know, here's, I guess the best way to describe it is like

i'm so clear with drugs and alcohol there's no you know there's no other route but sobriety right i'm always looking for another route in terms of food and but you know like i'm always looking for the shortcut you know what does it look like now i mean we've talked a little bit about like the plant-based stuff with you. Right, right, right. I don't know where you're at with it now and how that looks, but. I'm, you know, I'm very, obviously, look, I'm health conscious and I, you know, I love, you know, working out and weight training has always been part of my emotional recovery, you know, and I still do that anywhere from three to five times a week, right? So exercise is still, you know, really how I, you know, keep that beast at bay. how I, you know, keep that beast at bay. And right now, in terms of my food plan,

it's strictly, I would say, pescatarian. You know what I mean? I do eat, you know, I do eat fish, but pretty much everything else is I try to, like I don't do about, it's been almost a year giving up dairy and wheat and, you know. Yeah. I eat, you know, ridiculous amounts of Ezekiel, you know. Right.

And I just, you know, I feel better, you know, when I'm in that groove. Right. And I'm a, you know, I'm a vitamin wh But, you know, I take vitamins three times a day and I'm very aware of, you know, all my nutritional levels, you know, like I do blood work every two months with my guide, you know, to see, like I'm, here's what I, here's the good thing about where I'm at with it all now. I no longer, like, it's so easy for me to live in the vague, you know, just sort of like la, la, la, la, la, you know. Yeah. And I don't do that anymore. Meaning like I'm, you know, I'm aware of where I'm at pretty much.

Even the stuff I don't like, I stay aware of. You know what I mean? Right. You're not in denial like that you have some, you know, where your blood pressure is at and your cholesterol and all that kind of shit like you're staring it in the face but that's it it's a as somebody who's struggled with your relationship with food and having a kind of a healthy you know handshake with it um it's a tricky tightrope walk because if you get too into that kind of stuff then you're back into like obsession yes you know yeah i don't know. I'll tell you this story and I don't, I think you might know this

or maybe not, but, um, you know, I, uh, for the longest time, if I was not plant-based, I was pescatarian. Right. And, uh, I worked out four to five times a week, you know, my, you know, I've always, you know, I'm always obsessing about my weight, but I was in a fairly healthy range. And my blood pressure has always been on the high side because it's hereditary, right? My dad had high blood. My dad stroked when he was in his 50s, right?

So it's something I'm just aware of. And I've never found, like I was on different medications and I just didn't like them. So I avoided that, you know, I just tried to like do it with diet and, but my MD was, you know, she was, you know, like it was getting to the point where she was worried, right? It was, you know, she was, you know, like it was getting to the point where she was worried, right? So she, I did my routine checkup and, you know, got on the treadmill and did the EKG. And she saw something on the EKG that she knew was like nothing, but used it as an excuse to send me to a cardiologist, right? And said, you should go see the cardiologist. it as an excuse to send me to a cardiologist, right? And said, you should go see the cardiologist.

And it was basically so that the cardiologist would scare me into taking blood pressure meds, right? She was like teaming up on me. You know what I mean? Like to get like, you know, so I go to the cardiologist and with Caden, I did the big, the two big, you know, the test and you're in the roto thing and they- You do the calcium? Yeah. The whole deal, right? And I was like, literally, they're like, just give me every fucking test you have. Right. So we can see that everything's fine and I can get the fuck out of here. And so we get into the office, right?

And we're sitting down with my cardiologist, who now is like, you know, my best friend. And he looks really worried. He's like, I had something come up. Can you guys come back after lunch? And why don't you go across the street, grab lunch? And so we're like, oh, okay. And then we're at lunch. We're like, wow, I wonder what happened.

He looked really worried. And completely clueless that when we get back that who he was worried about was me and that a major artery in my heart was like 90% clogged. The LAD. Lower. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. The widow maker.

Yeah. And he had nothing to do with diet. It was completely hereditary and probably started happening 15, 20 years ago. The breakdown of it, right? Yeah. It's over time. This is exactly what happened to Kevin Smith. Yes, yes. And so we go back to his office and he shows me the pictures, right? And I'm just like, I'm like numb. I'm like, it's like, who are you talking about?

I'm like, numb. I'm like, it's like, who are you talking about? I'm the guy that, you know, I work out six days a week. I eat, you know. And so I went and, you know, they do, I had a stent put in, right? But my reaction to that, and this is a little, you know, this is, you know, what kind of cloth I'm cut from, right? My reaction to that was, fuck this, right?

And that's when I started smoking. That's when I started eating meat. My reaction to it was, well, if doing all this has nothing to do with the quality of life and my health, what the fuck is the point? Yeah, forget it. Forget it. That's so interesting. And I started smoking. And, you know, so the whole time I was doing Bastard in the UK, you know, I got up to a pack and a half a day. I knew that you were smoking.

Yeah. And I was like, what are you doing? Like, maybe he's just stressed out. I did not know that you had a stent put in. Yeah. But that was my response to it. Right. Not like, oh my God. Because in your mind, you're like, I've been a good boy. Exactly. And this is what I get. Right. So fuck you. I can't be any healthier than I already am. So fuck it. Right. But those plaques, you know, started when you were seven years old. Oh, yeah. It's like it's a lifetime of building up.

Exactly. Exactly. And the truth is you can, and I'm sure your cardiologist has told you this, like you can reverse that stuff. Yes. Yes. And thank God you had a stent put in and you didn't have like a massive coronary. Nothing. It was asymptomatic, you know, until it's not.

You know, and so it was so surreal. And that was, you know, that's the kind of cloth I'm cut from. That's how I dealt with it. Yeah, I'm not surprised knowing you. You know, it's like pushing back on everything. Yeah. You know what I mean? Like at times your own worst enemy.

Absolutely. Yeah. And the whole time I'm doing it, completely aware on some level what was happening. Self-sabotage. And, you know, and then, of course, you know, I try to quit and I'm like, oh, this is what they mean when they can't. What a new addiction. Yeah, you know, so, and it's not like I, you know, started smoking and dropped 50 pounds, you know, like none of that happened. But, you know, the whole time I was in London, I was smoking and then I came back and, you know, it took me about six months to ultimately let it go.

And then I did. And then, you know, my lifestyle shifted and got back to, you know, what I knew was not just the way to live, it was how I lived, you know, and which is, you know, where I'm sort of at now, right? But there was a two and a half year period where I was like, what's the point, you know? And I don't recommend that to anyone. Yeah, not a good idea. I'm glad you came back from that though, man. You know, you're a good dude. We want you to stick around.

You know, it's so weird because it's like, I never had any doubt that that's how I, you know, it's not like I thought that's who I am now. Like I- It's that distinction between, like intellectually you know. You have total awareness of what you're doing and you know it's not good for you. And yet what is that thing that's compelling you to like walk down that dark

alley? Yeah, it is. It's that, you know, and who you're, you know, it's that, you know, fuck you. But the only person you're saying, fuck you do is yourself. You know what I mean? It's sort of like, who are you, who are you defining here? Who is this person? Yeah, exactly. So, you know, and God, you know, my, and my wife Kate was, you know, like she saw all this happening and, you know, and, you know, we were, we had our own stuff going on at the time. And so it was just this, you know, it was this sort of, you know, bizarro Kurt for like two years, you know what I mean? And, and still, you know, navigating around some of that.

But, but as far as, you know, health stuff, it's, you know, it's really been, you know, it's been a little bit over a year and that's where, you know, the conversation we first had when I saw you today was about weight and, you know, like I knew when I was like quitting that I was going to pack on weight. And that's when I sort of changed things up in terms of my workout. And if I was going to put on weight weight at least i wanted to put it on in the right places muscle yeah and uh change up the beard geography a little bit yeah yeah that was actually that was actually for some acting i did okay you know um yeah cool uh so let's work up to that i mean all right so so you kind of bail on ruck. You go to New York City. You're studying Meisner. You're doing, like, you know, off-Broadway theater, right? Stuff like that.

Yes, bad off-Broadway. And then, like, you move to L.A., but then you go to grad school in northern Illinois. Like, you know, what's going on? Like, when did you first come out to L.A.? I first came out to L.A. in the mid-'80s,, late 80s as an actor, you know, and pursued acting out here. And that's sort of when, like, I didn't get sober, but I knew, you know, I had started going to OA at that point and I was aware of, you know, what some of my demons were. You know, like I was, things were becoming, you know, things were becoming sort of getting into focus. And I came out here, originally I came out here to LA at an odd time.

It was the first writer's strike back in the 80s, and it was just like the really bad timing. You cannot write when there's nothing to do. Yeah. And then I talked to, you know, my mentor studying in New York was this woman, Catherine Gately. And, you know, and so I ultimately went back to New York to study with her to teach, right? Because I thought, like, this is really what I love to do. with her to teach, right? Because I thought like, this is really what I love to do.

And if I can't do it as an actor, you know, this was a technique that really spoke to me that I understood on a really sort of visceral level. And perhaps, you know, I can teach it and then direct theater. And that was sort of the plan coming back to New York in the early nineties. And then, you know, I was with Catherine, and then Catherine was offered a sort of master teaching position

at Northern Illinois University about a half hour outside of Chicago. And she, you know, really she sort of took me under her wing and took me along as a, and, uh, so I went out there, um, as a student, you know, but really with the focus of learning the tech, you know, and it's the technique I'd studied with her. Right. So it was about, you know, taking the technique again, really looking at it through the eyes of being a teacher and a director. And, you know, and I did that for, it's a three-year program, and I was in DeKalb, Illinois for two years. And then, you know, the rest of it I did pretty much through independent studies, right? And so was the dream then that you would go into academia or that you'd become a theater director? The dream then was like, oh, this is, you know, I'm going to get into academia,

not realizing that, first of all, the arts budgets across the board in all schools were shrinking and being a white male was not, you know, high on the, you know, the registry in terms of who was being hired. And, you know, and really became aware that if I wanted to do that, most likely it would be like, you know, some community college out in, you know,

Grizzly Point, you know, wherever. Did you feel like you couldn't go back to New York and, or LA and like take a stab at the acting thing? Like, did you get your ass handed to you or do you just feel like you were there at the wrong time? Like, what was your mindset then? I think at that point, I really, you know, I loved acting, but I think I really, you know, I was really focused on, you know, teaching and directing. Like I, it's not that I didn't like acting and I, and obviously I did a lot of it when I was in grad school, right? It's part of the program. And, but it really was, you know, wanting to, you know, basically, you know, how do I make a career out of the arts, out of the thing that I love, right?

And felt like, as much as I loved acting, being an actor was too, my practical, pragmatic brain couldn't sit with, or couldn't trust that I... Lack of control. Lack of control and that I could make a living out of that. And yet, so if there was something, you know, I could do that sort of tapped into that love, but was a little bit more secure, that made sense. Yeah. So that was the plan.

A little bit of dad talking in the back of your head on that one. Oh, a lot of dad. Yeah. So that was the plan. You had a little bit of dad talking to you in the back of your head on that one. Oh, a lot of, a lot of, a lot of dad. Yeah. I mean, what was their, like, what was their perspective on, on you, like, pursuing a career in the arts? I think they, I think they realized that it's, it's what I wanted to do. They were very supportive of me going back and getting my degree you know they always were a bit something they can understand yeah you know and understood like oh okay here's a you know it was much it was pragmatic it wasn't quite as um elusive as trying to be uh you know a tv star or and you know what I mean? And, uh, um, so they were supportive of it and, uh, and, uh, but, you know, it took a while for them to, to get there. You know what I mean?

And, uh, but then, um, you know, what ended up happening is I, I, I come out of that circumstance and, um, it was a great experience, like some of, you know, really, you know, some of the most satisfying years of my life in terms of the art, right? And really immersing myself in a way that I was never able to do in New York when I was, you know, trying to survive and being an actor, right? trying to survive and being an actor, right? Exposed to such great dramatic literature in a way I'd never been exposed to before and just really kind of opened up my mind and exposed me to some really great writers and playwrights. Who were your guys?

I liked the surrealists, I liked the surrealists, you know, like Jeanne and Ibsen and, you know, all those crazy Russians, you know. It was sort of like the ones that spoke to me, you know. As well, you know, I'm a huge Eugene O'Neill fan, you know. So, but those, you know, the really damaged ones. That's surprising. And, you know, it's like I love those, I love those, the Russians, you know, like Chekhov where, you know, on face value, you can read it and be like, oh, my God. And then realize, wait a minute, this is a comedy.

And then have to go back and be like, oh, you know. But so, you know, for me, it was, you know, just such an amazing experience. But then ultimately I went back, I had met my first wife at that point and went back to LA and the plan was maybe to teach privately, right? Because I realized, you know, I just didn't have the, I just didn't want the, like, I just didn't want to be, like, in some community college in anywhere in the USA, right? And I thought, well, maybe I, you know, I had a friend out here who, or a colleague who had her own studio, and maybe I could, you know, set up a shingle and sort of have that be who, you know, had to do this. who, you know, had to do this. I started writing in grad school a little bit and then through a series of events began writing out here. And at some point that really

pulled focus, you know. It's weird that you had to kind of go through everything, you know, all these other disciplines around the world of writing before you kind of hit that bullseye for yourself. Yeah, it really is. And I, and it's interesting because I, it was a very circuitous, you know, but what I realized is that everything I did up to that, not just life experience, but, you know, academically and training wise, really created a unique set of tools that gave me what ultimately became

my voice and that any other way, it probably wouldn't have happened. Now it's hard to, you know, and the only way that can happen is to let it happen and then look at it in hindsight, right? But, you know, that became really clear to me that, yeah, it took me a long time to get here. And, you know, when I first got my first gig on The Shield, I was 10 years older than everybody, you know. And, you know, but at that point, I, you know, my trajectory happened fairly quickly. And it's almost like I, you know,

it's like all that stuff was sort of just lying in wait. Yeah. And it got plugged into like just this sort of ultimate project for you to sink your teeth in. Like it couldn't have been more kind of creatively aligned. Yes. You know, with where your instincts were coming from. I mean, were you aware of that in the time or you're just, you're probably still trying to figure out what your voice is. Yeah.

You know, it's interesting. It was like your first gig. It was, it was it was you know it's so crazy and i just remember uh i remember at my my wedding to kate uh that uh sean said a few words or and we had it at our our house and at the time in los Feliz. And I always remember Sean. Sean being the creator. Sean Ryan, who's the creator and who hired me. And at that point, I think we were in like the second or third or the third or fourth season. We were, you know, into it.

And, you know, Sean described me as like everyone else because the world was so sort of dark. And, you know, you had to go to those places you don't necessarily like to go to that everybody else sort of, you know, took off a shoe and dipped their toe in and that I basically stripped down naked and dove in headfirst, right? Which I, you know, which is kind of true, right? Right. And because it was familiar water for me, right? It was that sort of offbeat, kind of dark, looking at the world through a lens that you're not supposed to look through, right? you know, it was so fortuitous that that was my first show and not like, you know, and not that this isn't, you know, like network TV didn't have great shows, but if I had, you know, if I wasn't allowed to like be who I was and someone tried to wrangle me through a different filter, you know,

my career would probably be much different. Right. I mean, what if, what if you ended up writing for Ally McBeal or something like that? I mean, it's like, you know, the fact that you ended up on the shield, I mean, it's so, it's, it's like almost universally divine because, and the timing is so important as well. I think it's hard for people to understand, like, this is before Breaking Bad. This is before like, you know, this whole like era of the anti-hero hadn't really, I mean, the Sopranos, I guess, you know, Tony Soprano was the anti-hero, but like that fully fleshed out like arc over many seasons of this really palpable,

visceral anti-hero hadn't occurred yet. And Vic Mackey really like brought that to life. And you're sort of credited with writing like a lot of the gnarliest scenes that transpire in that series. Yeah. I, you know, Sean was such a great mentor and really, you know, you know, because I'm, you know, at the time I'm brand new, right? So I'm being driven, you know, creatively, you know, inspired, but, you know, personally and emotionally,

I'm terrified, right? Because it's like, it's the first time I've had anything real. And I'm so afraid that it's going to go away. You know, I'm, you know, I'm a mousetrap ready to spring, you know? So I was really bullish and, you know, incredibly proprietary over, you know, what I wanted to do. And, you know, and a lot of showrunners, I think, would have, you know, been intimidated by that. smart guy and intuitive enough to sort of, you know, rein me in when I needed to be reined in, but for the most part just sort of put up the bumpers that took me in the right direction. And really, you know, it's why I feel I have a lot of, you know, I stayed on that show till the end, right?

Yeah. Seven seasons, right? Yeah. And I really feel like, you know, I was able to contribute at least tonally to the show. Do you know what I mean? You know, ultimately it's Sean's vision in terms of story, but that, you know, I felt like I was really able to find my voice, you know, within the confines of that world and that character. And, you know, and a lot of people wouldn't allowed me to do that or would have been intimidated by that

and tried to shut me down or be threatened by it. And Sean, you know, was just, you know, really smart enough and, you know, and enough of a mentor to sort of nurture it and, you know, set me on fire at the right times. Do you know what I mean? Yeah. And maybe have more than a few conversations behind closed doors with other people. Perhaps. I know it's a pain in the ass, but like, there's something there. You got to let me work with this guy. I'll, you know, try to make it palatable for everyone else.

You know. How does it work? Like, I'm always amazed when I watch, you know, a program of that caliber. And knowing a little bit about how production works, like, it's just amazing that anything good ever gets made. You know, when you see something that's really good and knowing like the time constraints and the pressures and like all these personalities that have to come together and conspire to like create something, you know, I'm just, I'm baffled by it and I'm amazed. And I'm always wondering like, how does a writer's room work? Like you're in, I just have this vision of like a bunch of people sitting around a conference room table, like eating Chinese food at three in the morning and getting into arguments.

Some of it. I think comedy works very different than, than drama. You know, I think there's a lot of that happens in comedy. It's a lot, you know, there's a lot more personalities in the room because you're, you're doing story, but you're also telling jokes, right? So you're, you're, you're servicing, you know, two masters. For drama, you know, anywhere from five to seven writers usually. And you have one writer that runs the room and the showrunner, you know, the way I work is, and, you know, really from sons on, you know, I'll have one

writer that kind of runs the room for me, right? And we'll, you know, sort of steer story in a certain direction and then I'll come in and I'll weigh in on, you know, what works, what doesn't work, what we need, and, you know, and plug in, you know, at different points of the day. But prior to that, there must be some sort of, you know, meeting of the minds where everyone gets together and you kind of have to break the arc of the season, there'll be, uh, you know, I'll have a general arc that, uh, like for my ends, right. There's for this first season, there's a, you know, there's a, uh, sort of a broad arc that I want to service in terms of the show, like where it starts and kind of where I want our hero to or anti-hero to land. At the end of that season? At the end of that season.

If you could imagine seven years of that show. You know, I had a bigger arc for Sons that wasn't necessarily beat for beat of where the show was going, but a great, but a sense of, you know, broad strokes where I wanted it to go. Like I knew I wanted Jax to be president and, you know, and I have some of that for Mayans, but perhaps not quite as much. And I think that's a good thing because what I learned on Sons is that, you know, I'd have these sort of general arcs or these concepts for each season. And then I learned that the looser I held on to them, the better the season was, right? So I use them really as catalysts, right, and mile markers. mile markers, but then I don't, if the story is going in a different direction, I don't try to bend it to like a preexisting idea if it's going in a different direction, you know? And that's really, you know, the way I'll work. So, you know, for the Mayans, I go in with the writers and I

sort of pitch out generally where I want it to land, you know, and then we'll have a sense of, all right, you know, maybe by episode four, I want this to happen. And then by episodes, we're doing the pilot plus nine, right? Where that, you know, so episode four, and then by episode eight, and then, you know, so by the end we're at this place, right? But it's really, you know, it's sort of broad. And then sometimes I'll break out all aboard with episodes and sort of where I want some of those bigger moments to happen. Um, and, uh, uh, and then, you know, I let, you know, we'll come up each episode, you have, you know, an A story, a main story, and then usually there's a, something that's more character driven.

That's a B story, sometimes even a C story, like a little runner that's two or three beats. And, um, and then, uh, you know, but that, uh, that sort of moves you forward towards some of those mile markers, you know, but I, I've learned that, you know, but that sort of moves you forward towards some of those mile markers, you know. But I've learned that, you know, the more I, more open I am to it going someplace else, you know, as long as I don't lose the vision of the show, you know, the better the show is. Right, rather than being rigid on some idea that you had previously that's kind of at odds with where it's naturally flowing. Yeah. And just like, you know, to find like a great character beat, right? Or a narrative beat that's really, you know, that speaks to the characters in the world, you know, that may send the trajectory going in a different direction. And, you know,

not that you can't ultimately land where you want to land, but you may have two or three points along the way. And rather than bending it to try to hit those, you find, you know, you trust that if you continue to do what you're doing, you'll, you know, you'll find what you're supposed to pass through to get to that point, you know. Yeah. Interesting. You had said earlier, you know, by virtue of this grad school experience that you learned that, you know, you learned these tools for how to tell stories

or how to be a storyteller. So like, what are those tools? Like, what is your perspective on how, you know, what makes you the storyteller that you are? What are the guiding principles of that? That's a great question. I think, uh, uh, you know, for me in, in grad school, it was being exposed to, um, you know, and it's, it's, it's not, it's nothing that you can then like kind of rip out and go, oh, I'm going to use that knowledge here, right?

Kurt Sutter's five tips. Yeah, right? Where that knowledge and then my acting sort of kind of worked hand in hand is that, you know, I always had a really good sense for bullshit moments, right? Like if I was, it was made me a pretty good director and a pretty good teacher, right? Is that I could usually know when actors were not connected or their, the moment didn't feel real. And, you know, so what I was able, what I realized I was able to do is take that skill and apply it to how I write dialogue so that I, you know, I'll, you know, it's why I'm not a showrunner that gives actors freedom with language. Like the line. No improvising on your set. Yeah. You know, the words on the page are the words I want to hear. And if they don't work, we'll figure it out together. But like, I spend a lot of time and energy in putting the right words in the character's mouths, right? And so I realized that ultimately that skill was very translatable to writing, you know? Like I

can hear, you know, when I write, you know, the magic for me is, you know, I'll be alone in my office and, you know, I'll hear that conversation, you know, and I'll, you know, I'll be in it and I'll feel it and, you know, you know, be weeping at the parts where those characters are weeping or angry. Like I can, I can take the emotional journey of the characters. Yeah, you're like an emotional cipher. Yeah. And I think that's what allows me to, at the very least, write authentic dialogue, you know? And then, you know, and then I have to be collaborative in terms of letting my director have an interpretation of that and having the

actor have their interpretation. But ultimately, as long as those moments are, you know, steer the story in the right direction, then, you know, I'm doing my job. I don't know. I forget what your question was, but. It doesn't matter. I think you answered it. The follow-up to that would really be, you know, what is your, like, practice of writing? Like, do you have, like, a routine? Do you have, like, a methodology for how you approach these things?

Like, are you a late night guy? It's like if I have 10 days to write a script or rewrite a script, like I'll get my writer's draft. And, you know, I wish I had the ability to do this. And I may. You know, this is – in fact, this weekend I get my first draft from – you know, I wrote the first episode, which is done, and I'm getting the next episode that two other writers have written. And, you know, for the most part, I always sort of do a page one rewrite, right? And it's not, has nothing to do with the writer's inability to understand or interpret the story. It's just I, you know, I kind of have to hear the voices in my head.

Do you know what I mean? So, which is really my process. Do you know what I mean? Are you actually acting it out in your office? Are you saying the words out loud? Pretty much. Like I will play out the scene and at least the emotionality of it, you know? And then, but, you know, and so I'll get that, you know, I'll get that, you know, so if I have 10 days to do a rewrite, you know, the first six are usually procrastination, you know?

And then the last four. You write an hour of television in four days. Jesus. to do a rewrite, you know, the first six are usually procrastination, you know, and then the last four. You write an hour of television in four days. Jesus. So, you know, I mean, that's true and it's not true, meaning that I will- You're thinking about it. Yes. It's like percolating in your consciousness.

And, you know, and I write everything out on a, I have a huge whiteboard in my office and it covers the entire wall. And, you know, and I'll, and the story will be all beat out, but then I'll usually have, you know, I'll just have like, you know, looks like serial killer scroll on the side of it in terms of like, oh, okay, that's what that beat is. And so that when I'm ready to actually sit down and put something on a page, you know, there's been work done that is a lot of times, you know, whether I'm driving or, you know, it'll sort of come together in process. And you've done it so much for so many years, I would imagine you can kind of trust, like, even if you're stuck, like, okay, you know, I've been, I've been here before. Right. Yeah. It's interesting. I always, I do. And then I don't, you know what I mean? In fact, this last, what do you do when you're stuck?

Well, this last script, it's funny. I, I finished it and, you know, there were a lot of changes that I made, not necessarily big arcs in terms that was, that were going to fuck up, you know, there were a lot of changes that I made. Not necessarily big arcs in terms that were going to fuck up, you know, the narrative component, right, where it's going. But just changes and I'll find stuff that I'll be like, oh, what if this happened? That usually, like, I won't share with anybody until they read the script and they'll go, oh. But, and not that I'm- I'm going to go in that direction. Not that I'm keeping it from anybody.

It'll just happen in process, right? And I've learned to embrace that stuff. And some of it works and some, but a lot of it does, right? So, you know, I'll be in process with all that. And, you know, I just sound like, if you walk by my office, it just sounds like a, you know. Franting lunatic. Yeah, like a lunatic, right? And acting the scenes out and having those moments. But I'll, you know, out of that, I forget what your question was, sorry.

It was just like, how do you work your way out of being stuck? Like, oh, writer's block. Right. Is that something you experienced? Do you think that's bullshit? Or like, how do you push through moments where it's not coming to you? It's not bullshit. I think my blocks aren't so much in terms of story as much as nuance, right?

story as much as nuance, right? Like, you know, in this episode and breaking the third or fourth episode, you know, I had an awareness about what I thought the arc might be and realized that, oh, I have to soften that, right? And open it up more to be more, you know, to be a bigger point of view. And so then I can go back, you know, we're going to do pilot reshoots, right? So I can go back into some of those scenes and allow for that to happen, right? So- You can plant that seed. I can plant, yeah. Terminate in episode four. So that's sort of, you know, it allows, you know, there's room, you know, there's room to do that. But I, you know, a lot of that stuff is, you know, it's not so much block as in how do I, you know, knowing where we're going, how do I shape things to lay track to that, you know, and without compromising what it's supposed to be or without like leaning into, you know, hey, we're going

someplace else, like finding- Becoming too distracted. Yeah, like finding the balance of that. It's like a weird alchemy. It really is. It really is. And you still, you'll find, you'll shoot this stuff, you know, and it's always, you know, it's always different when, you know, you, you get the cut and you see the actor's interpretation. Well, there's what's on the page and then you're there shooting it and you're like, well, that doesn't look what I thought it was going to look like. Right. And, you know, and there's what you shot and trying to piece that together in the editing room. Yeah. So you, you, and, and, you know, I've learned to embrace that and really, you know, revel in, you know, what it becomes.

And look, sometimes it doesn't work and you have to go back and sort of assert a point of view that wasn't covered to protect story, you know, or character. But for the most part, I really try to let it be a breathing, living entity, you know, and let other people's creative point of view inform the show, you know, in terms of interpretation. And, you know, it's the magic of you'll do a scene. Let's see what can i use for an example like uh on suns right um you'll do a scene with characters that never organically perhaps would come together in a scene like uh i remember writing a scene for jimmy smiths and the only way to get him there to to location was with the Unser character, right? Uh-huh.

You know, so putting him in a car with that character, I was like, all right, what are those guys talking about? And then I realized, oh, fuck, they both love the same woman, right? So what is that scene going to be like? So you then have to go, well, let's see, I have to service where it's going. Right. So, uh, you know, so let me, you know, I, there's a, you know, there's exposition I have to try to lay in and then, but then you have point of view, right. And then, you know, you give that to actors like Dayton Kelly and Jimmy Smits and you watch it and it's fucking gold, right. Because they bring all of their understanding of who the characters were.

And then you think, all right, I just got to keep writing scenes for those guys, you know? So that's an example of like, yes, it serves the story, but you have actors and a director that bring their interpretation of it and you go, oh man, that's magic, right? And then you write to that. It's really why I don't, you know, and the nature of production for FX is, you know, allows for this,

but it's why I don't like to get too far ahead of production. You know, in fact, I cut it way too close towards the end. And, but, uh, you know, because I like to be able to get feedback, uh, from cuts as I'm still writing the show, because you'll like, oh, wow, that, that really works. Right. So how can I, how can I service that, you know, and plug it into the story? Right, right, right. So you're writing as you're shooting. Yes, always, yeah. So then I would imagine that that would make it more important for you to shoot as much in sequence as you possibly could episodically, right?

Yeah, you can do it. Well, I never – we don't block shoot episodes, which a lot of shows do, which means you'll have the scripts and then you'll block shoot in one location. One set up for the next four episodes. Yeah, yeah. I don't mean like that, but I mean, obviously you can't shoot sequentially. Right, right. But if you're going to want to be writing along the way because what happens is going to inform what happens next. Right. To the extent that you could control that, I would imagine would be something you would want.

Yeah, but it's hard. For the most part, I really don't see cuts until they're done. Like, I'm not a guy that really, you know, I don't really watch dailies. It's more like what's going to happen next episode. How's that going to play out? You know, the only time I watch dailies is if like there's something we're not sure about, or if it's a new actor and I want to see what the dynamic is. But what ends up happening is, you know, I'll see it, you know, a cut of it fairly soon, right? That allows me to then, you know, maybe there's a, you know,

whether it's the next episode or the episode after that, it's in proximity enough to what I've witnessed to be able to incorporate that in, you know? Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, it happened early on, Sons, with Juice and Tig. Like, putting those two together was like comedy gold. Right. Right?

So then you're just like, how do I, you know, how do I service that? How do I exploit that? Just like Rosencrantz and Guildenstern. Oh, absolutely. Absolutely, yeah. All right. So with The Shield, you work your way up. Like every year you kind of get promoted.

So that by the time we're at season seven, you're an executive producer on the show. Did you feel, and then you go right into Sons of Anarchy, your first show that you created. I mean, you know, that show was such a massive success. I mean, it was a cultural phenomenon. Is it still like the most successful show that FX has ever had? I mean, it's crazy. It's hard to judge that because the times and the dynamics and the rules changed. Whatever, it was huge.

All right, so, I mean, looking back on that, you couldn't have predicted that. I mean, what was your anticipation and your expectation like going into that experience? The shield or the sun? No, going into suns. And like, what did you take from Sean? Right. Like, what did you learn specifically from working under Sean for seven years that you then put to work on suns? Pretty much everything. You know, everything I learned in that room in terms of telling story and breaking story,

you know, I went to school on Sean and Glenn Mazara in that writer's room, you know, and learned, you know, learned how to tell, you know, episodic stories. to tell, you know, episodic stories. You know, I, you know, I, I didn't quite know, you know, by the time I was done on the, you know, what ended up happening is, you know, I, my last season on the shield, rather than taking a money bump, I took a time bump because I was, you know, I knew I was developing this show. And I said to Sean, look, I don't want to raise,

but I want to be able to throw a couple days a week at this other project. And Sean agreed. And, you know, so I could start to segue into Sons. And because what I ultimately found out was that I thought Sons was going to air when The Shield finished. And what they decided they wanted to do was air them at the same time. So that first season of Sons aired, you know, with the last season of The Shield. I didn't remember that. So that was kind of nuts, right, in terms of time.

You know, because suddenly what I thought, you know, was X amount of time got just crunched. And so not only was I doing it for the first time, I was sort of doing it with a gun to my head, right? And you can only imagine how I react when I have a gun to my head. Yeah. Well, I saw how you reacted more than a few times. That was your coming out party. Yeah, it really was. You couldn't like, I'm just a guy in a writer's room on The Shield. Like,

you're a member of a team there and now it's all you. Yeah. Your face. But it was, you know, and look, the network tried to protect me and, you know, they brought in a guy to sort of help me run that first season who, you know, I ultimately, you know, within three episodes, you know, crushed him and stamped him into the ground because he didn't get the show. Right. And, and he was a talented dude, but didn't quite know what I was trying to do. And, you know, and, and then, you know, so it was, it was really, it was crunchy, man, you know, and, and look, you know, so it was really, it was crunchy, man, you know. And look, you know, it's all fear, right?

So I'm not the kind of guy that, you know, I don't fade with fear, right? I set myself on fire and run at you, right? So, you know, it was bumpy, man. It was really, it was really bumpy. And, and, you know, it took us, you know, and we, I just, you know, we premiered and we were up against, I remember, you know, the night of the show premiered Sons was the night Sarah Palin spoke. So we lot like our, our, you know, who can predict that, right? So the numbers, you know, and that's when people were, before people were TiVo-ing everything and recording everything on the DVR, they were actually showing up in front of a TV. And we got, you know, we got crushed.

And, you know, but then, you know, we slowly, you know, we basically got hammered that first episode. But then it was just this sort of frozen rope for a while. And then by episode six or seven, we started to bump up so that by the time we got to the end of that first season, you know, we were doing respectable numbers and everybody felt good about where it was going. And but it was an organic build, you know? Yes. And I think what's what's kind of maybe not unique, but seems unique to me, is that there's this like, you know, super rabid fan base that this show developed.

Like it's a very, I don't know how the demographic breaks down, but it's kind of like you know it when you see it. And these people like, I just know from like your Twitter following or whenever you've retweeted anything, I get a glimpse at these incredibly passionate people who just adore this program. And so what do you think you tapped into that connected? It's interesting. I had to sort of shake out all of that and look at it again. You know, when I was getting notes on this pilot for Mayans, and I realized, you know, we ended up doing a massive, like we ended up doing the same thing we did on Sons.

We did major recasting and reshot like 90% of the pilot, right? Yeah, I remember that. It was Scott Glenn was the first guy and you had to reshoot the whole thing. Right. And we sort of did the same on my ends and I made the decision not to direct the second pilot just because a lot of reasons, but I felt like I was too divided, you know. I thought it would be a good idea, but ultimately, you know, I felt that it was, you know, it was difficult for me to take off the producer hat while I was directing,

and that's ultimately a shackle, you know. is, is, is take, um, is, is sort of, I had the opportunity in, in, in the, in the reshoot to sort of take a step back and look at what I was doing that wasn't organic. And what I realized is that I was, for, for an example, we had a, uh, a character, uh, that was sort of a matriarch character. And I realized that I was trying so hard to not make her Gemma, that ultimately she was two-dimensional and it had nothing to do with the actress. It was just, you know, I realized what the mistake was, you know, and even having that conversation with John Landgraft afterwards in terms of, you know, they tested the pilot and it was a limited testing and they only brought in Suns fans to test it.

And, you know, which is a double-edged sword, right? You have a, you know, a friendly room, but a friendly room with a lot of opinions. A lot of expectations. Yeah, and a lot of opinions, right? And I had to remind John, you know, because it was about, you know, the matriarch character. And, you know, and really reminding John that, you know, we didn't come into Sons thinking we were going to get eventually half our audience would be women, right? It was a male coming off the shield. We were shooting for that male demographic.

It was, you know, and we didn't say, like, let's create these really strong female characters to broaden the show base, right? And so we had no expectation of that and that just happened organically. And it was, quite frankly, it was the nature of that world, right? That women not, you know, unlike La Cosa Nostra, the women in the MC world, you know, they have a function.

They hold the whole thing together. Pretty much, right? The thing spins off its axis without like these incredibly strong women. Yeah, and so that happened organically. Had I tried to impose that, it wouldn't have worked, right? So it was reminding John that, yes, we want that demographic, but we have to find it organically, right? I can't try to create characters to tap into a demographic. No, the minute you do that, you're dead.

You're dead. And that's at odds with your whole deal is like being unapologetically as honest and as sort of fearless and courageous as you possibly can be. And the minute you step outside of that and start looking at, trying to analyze it, you're doomed.

Right. But it's gotta be hard to preserve that. Yes. Yeah, and not, or not lean on it, right? You know, and I was so aware of that and, you know, and we had a lovely actress and it had nothing to do with her performance. And, but, you know, so ultimately that character got extracted and it really became this dynamic between a father and two sons.

Eddie James Olmos is the dad, right? So we have, you know, it's a great cast. And so we, you know, and then. The inverse of sons though. Yeah, a little bit. Where you have the son and the two dads or the ghost of a dad and the stepdad. or the ghost of a dad and the stepdad. So, but as I write this second episode,

already there are these organic avenues to these strong female characters, right? But now they're happening organically because they're coming out of story and they're coming out of character and it's not me trying to impose the matriarch character, right? It goes back to that thing you said earlier about trying to be flexible and allow it to tell you where it wants to go. Yeah. Right?

And, you know, it's much to the chagrin sometimes of my writers and, you know, in terms of breaking story and creating beats and, you know, that'll change a lot when I do my draft. But, you know, the magic for me, and this will sound sort of psych And I hear the characters, right? And I'm engaged listening to them talk to each other and taking them on this emotional journey and then looking at it and go, oh, that's, you know, that character is this, right? That's how she responded based on, you know, the backstory we've created and the things that have happened. That's the organic response to that. So, you know, you start to see these characters that, you know, they always start out two-dimensional, right? They have to, right? So you start to see, oh, that's an interesting layer, right? That's an interesting layer. I always use this as an example that, and this is really ballsy, but I was like a staff writer on The Shield. And it was my episode and Sean was great.

We would always be on set with our episode and we had an actress who it was you know that show sort of aired in post 9-11 right so we have an actress in in my script it you know she opens she's they're doing a surveillance you know they're looking for somebody and they're knocking a door and it's a uh and it's an Egyptian guy. So the character, who was a cop, you know, she had this really, in the script, it was a really strong reaction, right? And the actress, who was, you know, really smart and civil-minded and, you know, I think her husband was an aclu lawyer like she had this very open you know uh political agenda and she's like well she's and i remember coming up to me going danny would never do that and i just looked at her and i went but she does and and then just that beat

for an actor to go oh i have to make that adjustment that I have to adjust my backstory and, you know, and then approach it. Suddenly I'm approaching this character from a whole different way. And it's really difficult sometimes for actors. I remember having a conversation with John Hurt at one of the upfront things when he was doing Damages. It wasn't really a conversation. I was listening to John. I'm sorry, Bill Hurt. I was listening to William Hurt, who was on Damages. And he was a fascinating guy. And he was talking about the process of TV and how it was so difficult for him because he's used to getting a script

and looking at the arc of a character and beginning, middle, and end and the growth of the character and knowing what all the choices were. So that he would start and then all of a sudden he would get a script that flew in the face of choices he had made. And it was really difficult for him until he embraced it in terms of like being to make those choices on a fly, like, oh, he's a guy who does that. So then, and it's not like it makes anything else he's done bullshit. It's just another layer, right? And it had to shift his whole perspective of how he worked and how he embraced it. Actors really are able to do that. If you lock into really sedentary points of view about a character and think that the character is one way or the character can't continue to grow through the arc of a season or a series, you know, you're fucked. So that was a bit of a rant.

I don't know. No, it's cool. But as long as it doesn't, like, you set up this world and so much of kind of what you do is setting a tone. Like there's like, there's a very specific tone to the shows that you do. Like, I don't know how you conceptualize that on episode one. So everyone's on the same page. That's gotta be challenging.

And then there are certain rules like to the universe. Like, what is the code? Like, you know, your shows are about, you know, a very specific like sort of code of honor, it seems like, and that may not be, you know, a normal person's code, but in that universe, it makes perfect sense. And all those characters have to like understand those rules and like behave accordingly. Right. Right. And it's family and it's, you know, whatever, it gets crazy in this outlaw world. But what I wanted to get at more is how did that work with, like, Charlie Hunnam? Because it seems like you had almost like a partnership with him as you guys made this program.

You know, you have to. I think, you know, ultimately, you know, what I realized is, yes, I have to have the vision, right? I have to steer the ship. But, you know, you have to empower your actors, you have to empower your directors. Um, and ultimately it was Charlie and I on this journey and, uh, you know, so, and Charlie was very, you know, you know, it was very few times when Charlie felt I was taking the character in a direction he didn't agree with. Most of the time it was, you know, figuring out the best way to get there, you know.

And he really, you know, and, you know, Charlie trusted me, you know. And ultimately that becomes, you know, an important component for a creator and a star, is that there has to be a level of, you know, trusting, I'm going to trust your interpretation of who this guy is, and you're going to trust, you know, the journey that I'm taking him on. And not that you're not going to bump heads, not that you're not going to have different points of view, but that ultimately you trust each other's talent enough to, you know, to take it to where it's supposed to go, you know.

Yeah. So Mayans comes out, when is that premiering, in the spring? We don't know yet. They're still, you know, they're still negotiating. You know, I'm hoping we can fall into the old sun's time slot maybe and maybe end of summer, early fall. But it's still all up in the air right now. We start shooting mid-April, you know, and we're a couple scripts deep right now. And, you know, we're in the throes of it, you know's exciting man it is exciting it's terrifying a little bit um it's one of those things where

you know uh bastard was a blast and and i'm you know i'm bummed it only it only you know lived for for one season but it's been about you know it's been a little over two years since i've been you know i've been writing the whole time and uh but I've been in, it's been a while since I've been in this production rhythm. And you're like, how do I do this? You know, how does this work? And then you, then what happens? Yeah, but you're the guy who like can't sit still. You hate it when you're not working. I know. So come on, man. But ultimately what happens is you have no choice. Like you can't, I'm like, I don't,

what is this? And then all of a sudden it's sort of like you can't, I'm like, I don't, what is this? And then all of a sudden, it's sort of like, in fact, I was supposed to go to New York this week and go to, they have, the network has their little upfront thing. And, but I'm already behind on scripts. And it's, you know, and it's sort of like, that's what happens. You're like, oh, that's how I do it. I fucking lock myself in a room and I give notes and I write. You know what I mean? It's like you just, you know, there's a certain amount of wiggle room where you can go, what is this?

Until it's like all on top of you and you go, oh. Sink or swim. Just focusing and like get it done. Yeah. All right, man. We've been going for a while. I want to be mindful of your time and let you go. But let me just, there's one more thing I wanted to ask you about, which is like how you make it work as a husband and as a father. You know, it's like you're collaborating with your wife. That has to be super intense and challenging. You know, somebody who collaborates from time to time with my own wife. Right, right, right. own wife, that blurring of the lines between, you know, personal time and professional time.

Yeah. And then, you know, making sure that you're balanced out enough so that you can be, you know, the dad that you want to be. Yeah. No, that's a great question. And, you know, here's what I, generally, I fuck it up all the time and it's really imperfect. But, you know, both of us live this – are on this path that sort of forces us to, you know, look at our shit, you know. So I'm always sort of, you know, swinging wide and then, you know, bouncing off a wall and then coming back and recentering and going, oh, that's who I am. That's what I'm supposed to do, you know. And, you know, Katie and I had bumps early on in Sons.

And then, you know, we got into a rhythm. And she became very respectful of, you know, and was able to separate, you know, some things. you know, and was able to separate, you know, some things. And then, you know, and it's interesting now not working together because we did it for so long. We did it for, you know, with Bastard in the UK. And, you know, and now she's doing her sitcom. And, you know, so it's interesting having separate lives again, but in a good way, you know what I mean?

But balance, you know, the balance is, it's hard, man. Yeah. It's like doing, you know, trying to stay in that pocket of positivity and being mindful is always a challenge, especially for, you know, and I think I can sort of throw you into the workaholic category, you know, where we love what we at home who just constantly forces me to recenter. She doesn't let me swing out too far. She rattles my cage and say, pay attention, you know, and, you know, in a very Kurt-like fashion. You know what I mean? The mirror is up. Oh, man.

It is so up. And, but she, you know, she is definitely my mirror. And, you know, it just, it's been a game changer in every area of my life. Good, bad, crazy, and beautiful, right? And she's usually the thing that, you know, causes me to, you know, fall off the beam. And then she's usually the thing that puts me right back in the middle, you know. But, you know, balance is a struggle. You know, I have tools that when I choose to employ them, give me some, you know.

But, you know, I have to usually get really uncomfortable before I employ some of those tools. Yeah, you and me both, man. You know, and. It's interesting that you guys are both, I mean, you and Katie are both, you know, artists that are, you know, so in your creative vein. You know, it's like, Katie's amazing. She's an incredible musician. She can do comedy. She just, you know, what she did on Sons

was just mind blowing. Like her range is extraordinary, right? Like she's just so prolific in her output. And then you have you, you know, who has like a very strong conviction about the visions that you're trying to manifest. And, you know, normally it would be, you know, one person in the relationship is that kind of creative person and the other person is more of like the grounded anchor. Right, right. Yeah. No, it's really, you know, in terms of professionally, it's really, you know, I think we're equally respectful and in awe of what each other do. So there's a lot

of respect for that. I don't think there's ever, you know, because we're of what we do and how we do it, uh, and both, you know, and obviously recovery and, and, and this other path, this higher minded path we're both on, you know, contribute to that. But we, you know, we're very aware of, um, uh, the, you know, we're very aware of the, you know, of the respect that we have for each other. And it's usually, you know, there's very few professional hurdles, you know. You know, family stuff and personal stuff always is the nature of it. But there's always, you know, professionally we've always sort of been very lucky in that, you know, even what she's doing now and Superior Donuts. And, you know, she, you know, I think she joneses sometimes for Gemma. And but, you know, but she loves what she does and she does a really good job and she elevates the quality of the work tremendously.

And, you know, I can look at things, you know, that whole other medium with a whole different, you know, through different glasses that allow me to have the same amount of respect for what she's doing there as she did on Sons, you know. And I think that goes both ways, you know? Yeah, that's cool. You know? Yeah. I think you have that too, man, you know? Yeah, I mean, it can be prickly at times. Like the journey has been to come to that place of like respect and admiration

and not like trying to ply my version of what I think that person should be doing on, you know, it's like, oh, she's got her thing and like, she's fucking good at it, man. And like, it doesn't need, like I can stand back now and just like respect it and revere it without having to get too involved in it, you know? Yeah.

That space, like, and the same thing, like she can give me the space to. Right. And that's easier said than done. Do you know what I mean? Like that is, you know, for fear-based people, and I speak for myself. You know, it's hard. It's hard to trust that, right? Yeah.

You know, it's hard. It's hard to trust that, right? But I think, you know, look, I think time can remedy some of that,, uh, having that, uh, you know, having that trust and, and knowing that, you know, uh, no matter what happens, that it's all going to be okay in terms of success and what show gets picked up, what doesn't happen, who gets the job, who doesn't, you know, that ultimately, you know, that's all, you know, those are all gifts, you know, and you, you know, you take them when they come and sort of be grateful for whatever they look like, you know. Yeah, but the dynamic of your relationship cannot be defined by those things. No. Or you're screwed. No, that's correct. That's correct. But I think it's learning, you know, how to do that. Yeah.

That enables, you know, because that can be, you know, that can add those external threats can, you know, can rip a marriage in half, right? Right. So, you know, but I think it's, you know, I think it's having the ability to know ultimately that we're all going to be okay. I hope so, man. Are we?

Are we going to be all right? We're going to be all right. All right, man. Good. All right. Final thing. If somebody's listening to this and they have a creative spark, but they're frustrated or they feel stuck or they don't feel like they really understand how to express themselves, whether it's on the written page or in music or in film. Like, what do you – I'm sure you speak to young creative types, you know, filmmakers, writers, and the like.

Like, what is your piece of wisdom? My piece of wisdom? Hmm. You know, it's easy to say this, but my experience is that, you know, one really has to remove the editor from that process. You know, I think so many writers, and speaking to writing specifically, you know, people are, you know, so worried about doing something that's going to sell or something that people want to hear, you know. So there's this need to like generate something that's going to be successful rather than generating something that means something you

know and uh and once and when you when you adjust that process to create something that with a specific result in mind you're fucked right So you write about things that move you. You write about things that, you know, whether being moved means, you know, being enraged, means being, you know, in love, you know, whatever that is, you have to write about something and from a place of, I need to tell this story, rather than, I'm going to write this to get this. And I would say 98.7% of the people that generate scripts and stuff in this town are doing the latter. They're writing something for an end result of this. And not that it doesn't work for them, but creatively, you know, you're, you know,

then you're, you know, you're, you're just, you know, a two-dimensional machine. Yeah. It's funny. It's funny that that's the case when at the same time, we all kind of understand like, oh, we, there's a dearth of, of really unique, compelling voices. Like who's the next voice? Who has the voice? That's what they're looking for. They're looking for somebody who has conviction, who has a point of view, who feels strongly about something. And when that is expressed honestly and with skill,

that rises to the top. Right. I always tell writers when they say, you know, I'm trying to write this, you know, or, you know, I want to write a script about this, right? And I, you know, I want to write a script about this, right? And I say, well, why are you writing a script about this? And they'll more often than not, well, it'll go back to a specific project, right? And I said, now, do you think somebody,

you know, said, write about that? You know, I said, no, that became the thing everyone wanted to recreate because it was what it was. And it's your job to figure out what means rather than starting with the end result, you start from within and then be that thing that everybody else wants to recreate. And it's hard for writers to wrap their brain around that sometimes, you know? And that's why I'd much rather take a writer who is green in terms of process and, you know, technique, but who clearly has an interesting point of view, you know? Because that's the gold, right? The rest is just any hack can learn a three-act format, right?

So, you know, and there's a lot of talented people out there, but, you know, even some of those talented people fall trapped to, what do I need to create to get the job? And then you're fucked. Yeah. And ultimately the super awesome job they want will happen when they are able to get to that place of authentic expression. Absolutely. Because anything else they get in the interim is all going to go away anyhow. You know what I mean? Because it's not real or it's not based on anything that they truly are inspired to do, you know, I think.

Cool. All right, man. Thanks for doing that. Thanks, brother. Feel all right? I'm good, man. I'm good. Yeah, yeah.

Tired out? No. I'm glad we finally got a chance to do this, man. Yeah, I appreciate it, man. You have been a source of inspiration in my own life, and you've been there for me as a friend. And I appreciate you as a human being and I appreciate the work that you do. So it was a pleasure and an honor to hear a little bit more about it. Ditto. And tremendous respect for you and your journey, and especially these last, you know, 15, 20 years is really,

I tell people about you all the time and, uh, uh, and tremendous respect for, uh, for what you do. And, uh, uh, uh, and, uh, you know, as I, you know, half-heartedly try to mirror you. I don't know about that, man. Don't do that. I think you're doing all right. All right, buddy. Thank you. Um. Awesome. Ask Sutter Inc. is how you track this man down. Hit him up. Let him know what you thought of our talk. But don't bug him. All right, dude.

Thanks, brother. Don't piss him off. Much love. Thanks, brother. We did it. It's done. It was good. What'd you guys think?

Hope you enjoyed it. Do you want the visual experience? Go to youtube.com forward slash rich roll. You can watch the whole thing in all its tricolor splendor. Do me a favor, let Kurt know what you thought of this conversation. Hit him up on Twitter or Instagram at Sutter Inc, Sutter Inc, Sutter Inc, S-U-T-T-E-R-I-N-K. And as always, check out the show notes for links and resources related to today's conversation on the episode page at richroll.com. Did you know the revised and updated edition of Finding Ultra is now available, as is the new cookbook, Plant Power Way Italia. Pick up your copies today. You will be delighted. The cookbook has 125 delicious plant-based recipes inspired by

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See you back here soon. Peace. Thank you.