The Rich Roll Podcast - Laird Hamilton Sees Life As Art

Episode Date: December 7, 2020

Legendary master of the big wave. Waterman god and sun-kissed global icon. Today one of the world’s greatest living athletes drops a master class on the value of pursuing adventure and embracing life as a work of art. Meet Laird Hamilton. Most are well-versed in the lore of today’s guest as perhaps the world’s greatest big wave surfer. Under-appreciated is his impact and legacy as a pioneer of crossover board sports that include tow-in surfing, stand-up paddle boarding and the more recent hydrofoil boarding explosion — passions that have earned Laird the title as surfing’s biggest innovator. An icon of fitness, longevity and well-being who has transcended the sport that made him famous, Laird and his wife Gabby Reece are the founders of Extreme Performance Training (XPT) — a unique fitness training and lifestyle program that includes dynamic water workouts, performance breathing, high-intensity and endurance training and more. He is also the founder of Laird Superfood, a purveyor of high-quality functional blends, proteins, coffee beans, snacks and more. Ubiquitous on grocery store shelves across the country, the company recently enjoyed a successful public offering. Profiled in every major media outlet across the globe, Laird has been featured in several films, including Riding Giants, an exquisite exploration of the history and art of big wave surfing. Finally, he is the author two books: Force of Nature, and his more recent New York Times bestseller, Liferider — both inspiring reads for anyone looking to elevate themselves beyond the ordinary to do extraordinary things. This is a conversation is about the internal Laird. What propels the relentless pursuit of adventure. His relationship with nature’s most intimidating elements. And how his fulfillment derives not from external validation but rather from competition with self — and accomplishing what even he questions possible. We explore his unique and always evolving training methods. His entrepreneurial journey. Marriage. Parenting girls. And turmeric. But the heart of this exchange is a deconstruction of fear. The wisdom gleaned from gliding on the edge of disaster. And why it is crucial to always seek out that which scares you most. Ask Laird and he’ll be quick to caution that we’re over-insulated from nature’s majesty. In turn, our intuitions have been muted. So, more than anything, this is a call to reconnect with that which makes us innately human — to constantly push beyond our limits, seek out fear, and ultimately, embrace our lives as an evolving and precious work of art. Not surprisingly, I found Laird to be both humble and wise — a function of hyper-connectedness to both self and the outdoors. But I was also delighted to discover a human with an endearing and beautiful child-like wonder — a trait we could all benefit from cultivating more. The visually inclined can watch our exchange on YouTube. And as always, the podcast streams wild and free on Apple Podcasts and Spotify. I loved this experience. May it leave you seeking to more courageously explore yourself and the world that surrounds you. Peace + Plants Rich

I'd have to say that the ocean probably has had the biggest impact on shaping the way I behave more than any one person, except maybe my mom, because she birthed me and she had huge influence, of course. But the lessons that you learn from the ocean, the relationship that you have with it, it covers so many things. And I know that my reverence for its power, its beauty, like it's just the harmony. Riding the wave is the act of harmony. You're trying to be harmonious with it. You don't conquer waves. You have the fortune to ride them for a moment and be part of them. And yeah, you don't, there's no conquering the ocean. I think that the most honest way you can live is

to know that dying is very easy and you can die any minute. Death is ever-present. And the truth is, is that right now death has a name and it's walking around and it's affecting people severely because their relationship with death is so insulated through just the way life has become that we're not living honestly like we would if we were out in nature being threatened constantly by stuff. Then our awareness would be so heightened. But, you know, I feel that you don't know what being truly alive is without that relationship to that edge. Hi, I'm Laird Hamilton, and this is the Rich Roll Podcast. The Rich Roll Podcast. Greetings, humanoids.

Welcome to the podcast. It is true. The legendary master of the big wave, the waterman god, global icon, truly one of the world's greatest athletes, Laird Hamilton. He is indeed here. It's all very exciting. But before we get into it, a little housekeeping. First is that I should mention,

we recently created a brand new YouTube channel just for podcast short clips. So essentially, every day, we're posting brief four to 10-minute excerpts from both current and past guests. So if you're into that kind of thing, it's kind of a good way to get a visual taste for each guest. You can check it out, link in the show notes or search Rich Roll Podcast clips on YouTube. The second thing is sort of a good news, bad news deal. The good news is that the response

to my new book, Voicing Change, has been overwhelming and tremendously positive, so thank you for that. The bad news, however, is that we wildly underestimated demand such that we're already sold out on the first print run, which, of course, is not ideal heading into the holiday giving season. That said, the second print run is in process and we should be able to resume shipping at some point in February. In the meantime, you can still, of course, reserve your copy signed or not at richroll.com slash VC.

Third, I know the holidays can be about indulgence, but this year in particular, I think we can all agree it's pretty crucial not to slip on your nutrition or to let your loved ones slip. You're stuck at home, they're stuck at home. You wanna help them eat right. You wanna help them learn how to cook healthy because let's face it, why not use this sequestration

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or go directly to meals.richroll.com. We're brought to you today by recovery.com. I've been in recovery for a long time. It's not hyperbolic to say that I owe everything good in my life to sobriety. And it all began with treatment and experience that I had that quite literally saved my life. And in the many years since, I've in turn helped many suffering addicts and their loved ones find treatment. And with that, I know all too well just how confusing and how overwhelming and how challenging it can be to find the right place and the right level of care,

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I really do. And they have treatment options for you. Life in recovery is wonderful, and recovery.com is your partner in starting that journey. When you or a loved one need help, go to recovery.com and take the first step towards recovery. To find the best treatment option for you or a loved one, again, go to recovery.com. Okay, Laird. You know, most of the focus on this guy is typically around him surfing some of the biggest and heaviest waves on earth. We all know that part. But underappreciated, I think at least, is his unbelievable impact and his legacy as an innovator, an innovator of crossover board sports of all shapes and sizes. Not just towing surfing, but stand-up paddleboarding, which I'm not sure would even be a thing today

without Laird. And the more recent hydrofoil boarding explosion, which really'm not sure would even be a thing today without Laird, and the more recent hydrofoil boarding explosion, which really began with Laird tinkering in a garage many, many years ago. Now, of course, we all know him as this fitness lifestyle and longevity icon, a guy who has truly transcended his sport. And this is a conversation less about the board and more about what drives Laird, how his fulfillment derives not from competition, but from immersion in nature and accomplishing what he questions possible. We talk about training routines and entrepreneurship, of course. He just took his nutrition company, Laird Superfoods, through an IPO, which is pretty cool. But at the heart, this is a discussion about the pursuit of fear, a belief that the only way to

feel truly alive is to dance with death, to glide on the edge of disaster, and to purposefully seek out that which scares you most. If you ask Laird, I think that he would tell you that we're all very much over-insulated from the elements, that we've muted our natural intuitions and shortcutted our connection to nature. And his call is about the importance of reconnecting with that part of what makes us innately human, to push our limits, to immerse ourselves in nature, to seek out fear,

and ultimately approach our lives as art. I found Laird to be wise and intuitive, a guy who's just hyper-connected to himself and, of course, the natural world. He's also refreshingly humble and grounded with this deep reverence for the ocean and the sports he loves. But there's also this enthusiasm and kind of a surprising and beautiful childlike wonder about him that I found very, very endearing. I love it. I think you guys are going to love it too. So with that, I give you the great Laird Hamilton. Laird Hamilton in the house. Thanks, man. I appreciate you coming out to do this. On your mark, get set, go. Yeah, let's do it. It was close. It was close. We've

been going back and forth. This may be one of the longest your schedule, my schedule scheduling. I know. It's been a minute. We were supposed to do this last week, then a swell emerged and God forbid, I'm going to get in between you in a wave. Not that I could, but that wasn't happening. So here we are, I suppose it's flat out today. Yeah. Somewhere it's not, but that's the story of my life. That's where your dream state takes you, right? That's right. I'm always searching in the distance. Over where there might be a swell. Well, I don't know if you have any recollection

of this at all, I'd be surprised if you did, but back in about, it was late 2012, my family and I were living at Common Ground and in the yurts behind the restaurant there. And I was doing some stuff with Chris Jabe at the time and you and your family would come and eat at the restaurant there. And I was doing some stuff with Chris Jabe at the time. And you and your family would come and eat at the restaurant pretty much every day, eating Rodman's amazing food.

That place is no longer, right? Sad, that was one of the saddest things I've ever seen. People work their whole lives to make a successful restaurant. You don't ever, when you get one, you're never supposed to stop it. But Chris was losing like 50 grand a month or something like that on that restaurant.

He was doing it just because it was a passion of his and he wanted to make it available to the community, but he was like hemorrhaging money on it. Yeah. Well, I think hemorrhaging on that project, the restaurant was actually the one of the, probably the only successful thing he was going. I think he was losing money on the restaurant too.

As well. Yeah, yeah. And we had come out, I was trying to help him figure out something productive to do with the property, but ultimately he couldn't figure out what he wanted to do with it. And he's moved on from then.

But that was like a really precious period in our family's life to like live on that farm. We were there for like almost four months. And I just remember you guys coming in and that's where I started this podcast. And Gabby was like my third guest on the show or something like that. We were there for like almost four months. And I just remember you guys coming in and that's where I started this podcast. And Gabby was like my third guest on the show or something like that. But I would see you and like you scared, like I was intimidated by you. Like I was too afraid to come and talk to you. I was like, oh, there's Laird over there, man. I want to talk to him. But like I never did. And then it took this many years for us to get together and do

the podcast. So anyway, that's my big backstory. Well, as soon as I looked at you, I knew you. I'm like, my name stuff is the worst in the world, but facial recognition, I think it's probably connected to survival just so you know the foes and the friends. But I looked, when you were shutting the door, I'm like, I know that. I've seen that guy. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I know you. I remember Gabby talking to my wife, Julie, at one point, and she was like, you guys might like Maui, you know? And that's a loaded statement. I've spent a lot of time on the islands, on all the islands, not nearly as much time as you have, obviously,

but there's something very powerful in the energy. You can feel it when you're in Hawaii for sure. And more than any other place on the North shore of Kauai. And that was a, it was a challenging period for us because we were new, we were interlopers and we were trying to like create a little community or a little, like plant some roots there. Cause we weren't sure we were interlopers and we were trying to like create a little community or a little, you know, like plant some roots there because we weren't sure we were gonna come back to LA

like we were considering staying there. And it was hard, man, trying to navigate like the unwritten rules about how you behave in that part of the world. That's true. Well, and each island is distinctly different. Every island's different. The sides of the islands are different.

And Kauai is, you know, Kauai is the, well, I always say, you know, bright light, dark shadow. Right. You know, it has the, and it's, I mean, I don't know if there's a connection to it. It's the wettest place on earth. It's, you know, and just, it's kind of, and it's the unconquered kingdom by Kamehameha. So the great uniter of the the islands couldn't conquer Kauai. And so Kauai has kind of a, it has a, you know, there's an aspect to it. I think that it definitely makes you kind of introspective. I think you just go there and you kind of go in. And if you're not

ready for fully in, then it's... Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, there's incredible light, but there's a heavy darkness there. Absolutely. And you can feel it. And I spent more time on the big island and a lot of time not in Kailua, but like in the small towns and riding my bike all around the island.

And I think most people's relationship with Hawaii is they fly there, they're at a resort the entire time, they have a great time. That's not Hawaii, man. Like Hawaii is a very different place and you really, you can't fuck around with that energy because it will bury you. It will. Yeah. And we, because Gabby and I laugh because she grew up on islands too. So she has island sensitivity and island awareness. And you see people kind of glamorize, hey, we're going to move there and live in the paradise and the whole thing. And then you just kind of go, okay, well, if you're coming in with that naivety, like you're coming in thinking it's just everything's all rose petals, you're going

to probably have a rude awakening. It's better to go. And then Gabby says this the best. And listen, I was raised there. I've lived there. I mean, it was a technicality that I wasn't born in Hawaii. I was born in San Francisco, but been in Hawaii since I was three months old. And I always walk like I'm a visitor, you know? And I think it's important probably to do that everywhere in life. Like, you always feel like you're just, you're a visitor. Because whenever you see people that get too prideful of, you know, hey, I'm a such and such, or I'm from here or something like that, I think that kind of, I think that can hold you back

and definitely affect your conduct. Yeah, I mean, it requires an extra level of humility. It does. I remember I wanted to shoot some video stuff and I was talking to Joel Guy, you know Joel, right? Yeah. And we were planning some stuff and I thought, well, I can just go, I was gonna go to this beach

and do this thing. And he's like, you can't do it, you know. He's like, if I'm not with you, forget it. You know, he's like, you're, you know, they don't know who you are, you know, and that's different and new. Like, it's like, hey man, I'm not trying to get in anybody's way or anything. And he's like, no, no, no. Yeah. I don't understand. Yeah. Yeah. Well, Joel and I have been childhood friends. So I've known Joel since we were little kids. Is he still doing his thing out there? He's still doing it. He does a lot of community stuff. So he's working in Hanalei and then working with the community. He's trying to... I mean, the community has ongoing things,

I mean, with floods and hurricanes and then COVID. And I mean, all this stuff is adding up. I would have thought you'd be already out there by now. Yeah, normally I would be. We just have had a lot of work stuff going on with the girls, especially too, because my daughters, you know, my middle daughter is hitting a lot of tennis balls. And so there's not a great, you know, in the wettest spot on earth, you better have a covered tennis court if you want, you know, to be able to put time into that. And then my youngest daughter is going to school, which in the past was online. Now it's, then it wasn't last year, and now it's back online, of course, because of what's going on with the pandemic. But so the girls are kind of holding me back here. I'm also just finishing a home on the island that I've been working on for 20 years.

Oh, wow. I have sometimes these crazy lifelong goals that come to fruition 20 and 30 years down the line. It's not on purpose, but it just seems like maybe that's just a relentless pursuit. You have a vision or a dream or see something and then you just, and you get, you know, you get distracted, but you just keep coming back to it. And eventually, you know. Babysitting it over the years. Kind of like how I babysat getting you on the podcast

for two, three years. Yeah, well, but you were talking to Gabby. So at the end you had, you know, you had the good line. That's interesting because you don't strike me as somebody who is like a goal setter. You strike me as somebody who's more like intuition based. Like you follow your heart, you follow your curiosity, your creativity. It's not like, here's my goal and I'm working towards that. You see more in the moment in general.

You know, maybe I'm using the wrong word. I'm using following my intuitions and following my instincts and then identifying something. I think I've had the fortune to be able to sometimes understand what certain things will mean, you know, in time. Like, hey, if you get on this board and you start paddling and that eventually that's going to, people are going to like to do that and they're going to be able to do that all over. Just, you know, it's, you know, I think there's an aspect to innovation that you understand what the mechanism or what the idea will eventually turn into. So I, and then it,

so that almost seems goldish at times. Yeah. But it almost gets a little gold. But it's rooted in play. Like you go out and start playing around with toe surfing because there's no waves. It's not like, oh, I'm imagining reinventing surfing. Yeah, no. It's just like one thing leads to another. That's true. And then, you know, a year later, you're doing things that you wouldn't have anticipated when you first just started fucking around with that stuff. That's true.

But, you know, a quote I really like is that they say that innovative people are fulfilled by accomplishing things and that competitive people are fulfilled by beating others. And I think I'm really on the, I really enjoy the, you know, that fulfillment of, okay, I think I can do this and then get, and then you, not I can beat this guy or I can outdo that guy. It's more about, you know, accomplishing these tasks, which is- It's internal. It's an internal thing. It's not, you're not measuring, you've

never been one to measure yourself against what anybody else is doing. It's all just how it measures up against what you think you're capable of. Exactly. Yeah. Or what's possible. Like what's, and then you might not even be capable of it, but is that possible?

And then you figure out how to become capable of it. Right. You know? Right, right, right. Yeah. Necessity's the mother of invention. Yeah, yeah. You know, what's funny about that, I rewatched Riding Giants last night,

Ben, I don't know when that movie came out, it was a while ago, but I hadn't seen it in a long time. And I just watched it as a refresher. Yeah, Stacy Peralta. Yeah, he's amazing. And what struck me is, you know, you've been labeled with this moniker of being like the innovator in surfing,

and you certainly are that. But when you watch that movie, you understand that the history of surfing is innovation. It's constant innovation, right? Like from the very beginning, when you track it all the way back to the first big waves that were surfed and how they just iterate and iterate and iterate, like you're just continuing in that tradition, which makes it weird when you hear, like, I know there are people that, you know, are traditionalists in some regard that give you shit for trying new things, but this is what surfing is, right? Yeah. From it, from the very beginning back to, you know, with a thousand years ago, I didn't realize, like, that's when it started. Or even, or even more, I think,

I think it came out in the necessity to learn how to navigate, you know, going out into the ocean when there was surf. And then through that, like the guy, if you could take your boat and ride the waves in, then that brought in a whole understanding of, but, you know, I grew up in a time in surfing that it was all about innovation. Like that was the focus. And then it kind of, I think when the competitive aspect of surfing came in, it kind of stopped innovation because it forced a certain, you know, it, it,

well, yeah, because you couldn't take the risk to go out and try something that didn't work. It would be like, it'd be like, if you're a bike racer and you're going to go in a bike race, you're not going to try some new prototype bike in a bike race because it's going to break. You're just going to go with what you know works. And then I think that kind of, in a way, you know, they talk about in like in computer design that all the innovations happened when there was a think tank, when everybody were together and they were just throwing ideas. And then as soon as somebody got competitive or they got possessive with an idea and held it and then stopped sharing,

then that's when it kind of everything slowed down for a while. And so, you know, when I was a kid, I just remember everybody that I was around, they were, you know, I mean, it was the 60s and people were, you know, doing all kinds of drugs as well to give their, maybe to give their imagination more of a boost. But the truth is there was a lot of innovation going on and they were doing weird designs and weird boards. And I mean, if you look back then and you look at the equipment and you're like, some of the stuff is so bizarre looking. And then it kind of went through this flat period. But I think for me, I always, that was the, you know, Brian Keolana is a great Hawaiian waterman and kind of a Hawaiian chief.

And, you know, he always would say, hey, don't define me by my equipment, which I appreciated that. It's like, it's just a tool. Like, hey, which, you know, which tool are you gonna use? Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's interesting that the flat period lines up with the rise of competitive surfing.

And competitive surfing is not part of riding, like it's never even addressed in riding giants. Like it surfing is not part of riding, like it's never even addressed in Riding Giants. Like it's just not part of that narrative at all. And you never even dipped your toe in that, right? When I was little, we played because it was fun. You know, when you're a little kid, you go down and it was like you and your friends showed up at the little surf contest at the beach

and you all went out and kind of, it was like, and then, you know, there was no money. Yeah, yeah. And then money came along and, you know, and then it was all of a sudden it was like, okay, everybody got- Gets weird. Yeah. Yeah. Gets aggressive and does anything. Looking back now, we're in this, we were talking about social media and our kids before this started and, you know, how addictive all of that is.

But one thing that it has created is the ability for athletes in all different disciplines and specialties to kind of craft their own path. Like when I look back on your career, like you were really the first or one of the first people who said, I'm not gonna do,

I'm gonna be a professional athlete on my own terms. And I'm gonna define what those terms are. I'm not gonna participate in this structure. I'm gonna do it outside of that. And that was pretty radical at the time. And you've been successful in that and lit the path for many to follow in your footsteps. But now because of these technological tools,

you're seeing athletes do that. Like they can make a name for themselves and support themselves doing what they love without it being in that traditional competitive environment. Well, see, I mean, really in all art. I mean, if you look at all art in a way, I mean, you look at music, you can get exposure. I mean, that's one of the, I mean, you know,

every, again, bright light, dark shadow, right? Yeah. One of the great things about, you know, every, again, bright light, dark shadow, right? Yeah. One of the great things about, you know, social media and just these tools, the block, I call it, is that you can, it's an opportunity to expose your skills and your talent to the world. And the followers will decide if you have a bunch of people following and are interested in what you're doing or saying or dressing or whatever it is you're doing, I mean, you can make a living from it. Right. Which is pretty amazing. It is cool. It's super cool that people can do that now.

It is. It is. And it's allowing a lot more freedom in art in general. When I call art, I just mean self-expression, right? In a way, it's just mean self-expression, right? In a way, it's forms of self-expression. And in my case, it just happens to be in sport. But in some other cases, it's in music, it's in cooking, it's in fashion, it's in lifestyle. You just go down the line. But it had to be hard back in those early days trying to figure out how you're gonna make that

work, right? I'm sure you had people in your life who were like, what are you doing? Like, you got to get a job, right? Well, you subsidize it any way you can. That's why I did, you know, if it's like, oh, a modeling job. Hey, you look good in that thing. Take a picture. Or, hey, you're going to be, you know, be in a movie and you can do stunt work. Okay, I'll do that.

I mean, it's like you did whatever you needed to do to subsidize your, I always say, you know, now I'm in a position where I can subsidize my excavator work with surfing. I would, I would subsidize surfing with excavation. Like I'd go dig in an excavator so I could go surfing. So you did whatever you could. I think one thing that really allowed me a real opportunity was, was Oxbow, which was this French company that sponsored me for more than 20 years. was Oxbow, which was this French company that sponsored me for more than 20 years.

And because I didn't have to cut trees, mow yard, dig holes, pour cement, hammer nails to survive because I had that support, it allowed me a little more freedom to practice my skills and to be creative and to work on stuff. And so that was a fortunate thing. I think without them and that support during that stretch of time, I wouldn't have had quite the luxury to be able to be as creative as I was. So I think that that was a unique thing that happened. But all along the way, you're always, you just do whatever.

The puzzle pieces. But you grew up, when you're a kid on the North Shore and you're seeing all those dudes who obviously influenced you so profoundly, like that's what they were doing, right? So you realize like, oh, I can figure out how to get a bag of rice or whatever I need to live. Oh yeah, they do whatever, fish in the summer,

work on the thing in this way. I mean, you did, they would do, I mean, and it's a little bit like, it's a little bit island lifestyle. Like sometimes I get around people and they're like, well, how do you know how to do that? Like, how do you know how to fix that thing? And I go, well, I lived at the end of a road where if you didn't fix it, it was broken. Like there was no like call the guy that fixes those.

There was no, you know, it wasn't so specialized like it is now. Like you just had to kind of, you know, I always love MacGyver. Like MacGyver for me is the best. Just give me the bubble gum and the duct tape and a little tie wire. And, you know, and you can just jury rig something and get something that was broken to work. And I think that that mentality is definitely useful in, well, not only survival, but in innovation. Yeah, innovating all these new iterations of what surfing is and can be. Exactly.

That imagination. That's what Thomas Edison said. He said, well, you need to be an inventor is an imagination and a pile of junk. So I'm like, well, I always had the junk. He was a good marketer too, though. Yeah, he was a good marketer. There's always that. He had that part to help him.

Yeah, yeah. Well, there's that too. That's a piece of it. I wanna talk about water and your relationship to water and the ocean. Like I'm in certain respects, like a different kind of waterman. I'm a swimmer. I grew up swimming.

Swimming is my passion and it started in pools. And I've done interesting things in the water, like monofin swimming, things like that. And now it's about ocean swimming. And then I got into ultra endurance triathlon and all of that, but I have a very deep and emotional connection to the experience of, of being in water and underwater. That's overlaps with yours a little bit, I would suppose. So I'm interested in how you think about your relationship to the ocean and how you articulate what that means. Well, first of all, that's my grandmaster, right?

Like if you said, who's your, you know, people say, who do you look up to or who influenced you? I mean, I'd have to say that the ocean probably has had the biggest impact on shaping, you know, the way I behave more than any, any one person, except maybe my mom, because she birthed me and she had a huge influence, of course. But the lessons that you learn from the ocean, the relationship that you have with it, the relationship that you have with it. It just, it, it, it covers so many things. And I know that, you know, my reverence for the ocean, just my, my, my reverence for its power, its beauty, you know, its, its magnitude, like it's just the massiveness of it. And it's our space, right?

Like the ocean is our space on earth. Like, if you want to know what space is like, you just go to the ocean and that'll tell you what, you can go to the edge of our space, right? Like the ocean is our space on earth. Like if you wanna know what space is like, you just go to the ocean and that'll tell you what, you can go to the edge of the space or you can go deep into space. But that gives you, in my opinion, that gives you, it was a great escape for me when I was a kid to leave kind of the cares of the land behind you

and all the worries and all the stresses. When you're underwater, all of that gets muted, right? And it's just between you and the elements. Yeah. And maybe just a giant shark that may be lurking in the distance. There's always that in the back of your head, like, let me see. I'm not a big fan of swimming out in the middle of the ocean with a mask that you can't see very well. out in the middle of the ocean with a mask that you can't see very well. But, but the, but, you know, so I think I, you know, so the, so the, the relationship with the animals in the ocean, with the way, just with the, with how it makes you feel like, like it, like the therapy of the,

it heals you. It's like being back in the womb. It is. You know? Yeah. And you get healed from it. Like you can go and be in the water and, you know, now we get all these science, I say science follows instinct, but, you know, you get, you have these ideas like, hey, this really, like I go there and I feel different, everything's different. And then they get some data and they're so like, yeah, well, that's because you're getting negative ions and the thing and you're grounding and your compression and all this stuff. But-

Andrew Huberman shows up and validates. Yeah. You've been telling yourself for 20 years. No, it's true, it's true. And that's kind of, I mean, that's pretty amazing in this time, you know, in the world that we can do that, that we're getting to do that. But it seems like your instincts, you know,

your gut instincts and your intuitions and all those things, those serve you right. And I think there's a karmic thing. I mean, obviously the ocean is the most conductive element on earth. And so, you know, sound travels through it, sound waves, but also wave energy, what we ride. So, you know, and I know like karmically,

whenever I'm in the ocean and I have some negative thoughts or some feelings or something, I usually just pay instantaneously. I'm like, I crash, the wave comes and hits me. And I'm like the ocean and I have some negative thoughts or some feelings or something, I usually just pay instantaneously. I crash, the wave comes and hits me and I'm like, oh yeah, that's right. I was supposed to, I gotta shed that stuff. I gotta clear my mind. Again, like a deeper level of humility.

I mean, there's this idea that you're conquering these waves. You're not conquering these waves. You're trying to exist in symbiosis with them. Harmonious. That's always talk about the harmony. these waves. You're trying to exist in symbiosis with them, right? Harmonious. That's how we talk about the harmony. Riding the wave is an act of harmony. You're trying to be harmonious with it. You don't conquer waves. You have the fortune to ride them for a moment and be part of them if everything goes right. But yeah, you don't, there's no conquering the ocean. No, no, no. No, and I, you know, my sense is that it gives you this deep appreciation for the natural world, right?

It does. Like I've had Alex Honnold on here. I've had Killian Jornet. And like the themes, you know, it's just this, this like the majesty of nature is just so profound when you're, you know, in the midst of trying to do your thing. Yeah. Well, being observant. In harmony with that harsh natural environment where the stakes are very high.

The observant, you know, being observant. I think that's, even today, like I was at my house and there were some hawks that fly by my house and just, and they come and, and, you know, and it's, and the more aware you are, it seems the more connected you become to it. And all of a sudden, it's almost like they come over and say hi to you and you're like, Hey, how's it going? They go, and they turn away. And I mean, you could go, yeah, okay. The Hawk, but did the Hawk, I mean, you, you're connecting with the Hawk, the Hawk came and, but you have to be observant to even see the Hawk. Then you have to actually put the energy and the thoughts to the hawk in a way that you, that you're, how you're observing it and what it means to you. And that happens with the dolphins, that happens with the, you know, the whale, that happens with all the creatures of creation.

And ultimately nature, I mean, nature is just, it is creation, right? So we talk about creation, the great creation. Well, nature is creation. So you get to observe it. And I think being aware of it, being aware of the sunrise and the sunset and the movement and all that stuff, connecting to it allows you a deeper relationship with it. You just can't, because you can't have this deep relationship without having the observation and being aware of all these things. The more aware you become, the deeper that relationship's become, and then the more it shows itself to you. It's like people talk about going on these journeys and reconnecting with nature.

And I'm like, if you're already connected, then that's not going to be so profound. It's just that so many of us have grown so far away from, hey, it's hot. I'll turn the AC on. Hey, it's cold. Turn the chill on. Hey, it's dark. Put the lights on. Hey, it's bright. Put the shades on. It's like, we're insulating ourselves from it. and obviously the ocean is the king because it's alive and moving and has, I mean, all the things it can do, just freezing and liquid and steam and just, I mean, we just, it's like the, you know, the unexpressible element. It just has too many. And still so mysterious. Mysterious. You know. Mysterious. Mysterious. But on the hawk example, I mean, I think the hawk example to me

is an illustration of the fact that no matter where you are, you're still in nature. Like we have this bifurcated like idea, like right now we're not in nature. Like if we need to go down to point doom to be in nature, but we're in nature right now. Oh, absolutely. We're always in nature.

And we always have that opportunity to be more connected to the environment and the energy and everything that's going on if we can be still and observant. Amen. Yeah. I think that that's one of the things that will help everyone, will help humanity the most is if we can continue to re... Because we have it, right? We have an ability to really be connected to nature in a way that we don't, it's so profound, we don't even fully understand it. The depth of what we're capable of and the depth of that relationship. Because, you know, I always, you know, we are it and it is us. I mean, we're so, you know, if you think you're not connected to the sun, if you think you're not

connected to, you know, everything and you're not, and it's not you and you're not it, then that's, you know, and that's the big separation right now. And it seems that in the present that, that we've been, we've become so insulated that that's, what's leading to people being, you know, either depressed or having physical ailments or whatever it is. A lot of it is because they're not fulfilling, I believe, they're not fulfilling this void, which is what nature was fulfilling. Like nature was filling this void in them through just even observation, even just looking and connecting that way. It's filling this, and then all of a sudden you have this void and then you're just putting stuff in it that the body and the soul and everything can't connect to.

Probably not a lot of, not an epidemic of anxiety and depression in indigenous tribes that are dealing with survival and connected fundamentally to the world in which they live. You know what I mean? None, there would be none. No allergies either. But then on top of that, on top of that to engage in, in which they live. You know what I mean? None. There would be none. No allergies either. No allergies either.

On top of that, to engage in, you know, the high risk kind of adventures that, you know, light you up, gives you, you know, it puts you in this contact with the fragility of life or what death means that I think enlivens your daily experience, right? Like, how do you think about risk and death? Well, I mean, first of all, I think is the most honest way you can live is to know that dying is very easy and you can die any minute.

And then how would you conduct yourself? You know what I mean? And I think for me, that's a daily challenge and a weekly challenge and a monthly challenge and a yearly challenge is this, to always have that kind of awareness that death is ever present. And the truth is that right now, death has a name and it's walking around and it's affecting people severely because their relationship with death is so insulated through just the way life has become that we're not living honestly like we would if we were out in nature being threatened constantly by stuff. Then our awareness would be so heightened. But I feel that you don't know what being truly alive is unless without that relationship to that edge, you know, to knowing where that edge is. Like when you're a kid, like, Hey, where's this place where, you know, where do you fall off? It's just, it's just a big, it's, if you take the evolution of what's dangerous when you're a little kid and you grow into a mature adult, then you go, okay, well that's the same relationship.

It's just, everything's become the scales have become bigger. Yeah. But it's still honest. It's just so honest. I know for me, it makes me a better person if I go in those situations and in the environments and around the strength of it, the strength of vulnerability, right? Yeah. The strength of true vulnerability. And, you know, the highest end of vulnerability is death, right? I mean, there's all kinds of vulnerability, like, hey, get your feelings hurt. And, you know, the tribe might accept you, public speaking. I mean, people

fear that more than death because they're worried about acceptance. So, but vulnerability, right? Being vulnerable and how that makes you, and that makes you just feel so alive. And that's honest, that's it. What's interesting about that is that it runs so counter to every message that we see out in the world, which is all about comfort and luxury and fancy bullshit or whatever. And we're sort of fed this narrative

that if we wanna be happy, it's all about getting the stuff or isolating ourselves, removing ourselves from anything threatening. And in truth, you're a living example of this, that sense of purpose or that engagement with the world that gives you that feeling of being alive only comes through challenging yourself or immersing yourself in the elements

and pushing the boundaries of what you're capable of. And it's something that it's not like a one and done. You got to do it your whole life. It's a practice like anything else. It's a daily practice. And the truth is that's the irony, right? The irony of the story is that all the things that you think are what you need are the things that are gonna bring you the furthest away from your goal, which would be to feel alive and to be healthy at the end of the day.

Like it's connected to health, right? It's like, you know, the irony is is that exposing yourself to great threat makes you the healthiest you can be, which is, that's like, that's the most confusing thing ever, right? Like, okay, go do dangerous stuff. And then that'll make you the healthiest you could be. You're kind of like, okay, well, that seems like you should be really safe and do things. And then that'll make you vulnerable to be really sick. You know, it's that simple. Like it's really that,

I think there's, there's a sim, you know, I always talk about if everybody just scared themselves once a day that, and genuinely scared themselves once a day, it would be good for you. Like it would just, it would just reset, like everything gets reset and you're like, okay, all right. Like, like, and I use an example of, you know, sometimes you're driving down the road and you're kind of just, you're feeling a little flat. And all of a sudden something, you know, an animal runs out or a car almost get, something happens and you get that adrenaline boost. And then all of a sudden you're just like, your vision gets real sharp. All of a sudden you're just like, everything just gets clear. And you're like, you're aware and your senses are in high alert.

And then you're like, and it took that, it was just boom, that quick. and your senses are in high alert. And then you're like, and it took that, it was just boom, that quick. And that living in the state of that kind of awareness is such a better, it's just a better way to, you know, it's like, it's a better way to live. But it's also about having a healthy relationship with that too, because you can, you know,

you can have an addictive relationship to that that will destroy your relationships. And, you know, you just become, you have tunnel vision over what's the next thing that's gonna jack me up, right? I'm sure you have, I've got friends like that. A lot of them aren't here actually. And there's a lot of destruction in the wake. Yeah, exactly, right?

A lot of them are gone. A lot of guys I know that were- I mean, has that ever been like something you've had to like deal with or you seem pretty grounded and level about the whole thing. Yeah, you know, I mean, listen, I think I've been fortunate to be around enough of those guys and watched,

you know, I've seen a lot of good guys, you know, die because of the, because of the, either the complacency from doing it, doing stuff and not retaining that respect. Maybe they got a little comfortable, you know, it's like they, they dropped their guard. And most of the guys that I know that went down doing dangerous stuff, it was, it was more about that, you know, it was just maybe too many, too many times at it or too much of it and not enough balance, like not enough, You know, it's like, for me, I feel like it's important to get, you know, I guess, I guess for me, the, when I look at it and because I'm, like you said, not huge, like obvious

goal setter, but I have one goal in mind, which is to live, to survive. That's the, at the top, that's the thing. And I want to, and I'd like to be, and I'd's the thing. And I want to, and I'd like to be, and I'd like to be, and I'd like to, and I'd like to, to, to be old and, and, and gray. Like I would like to, I see that as like, the objective is to be standing at the end. Right. And so if that's the goal, then that means that you have to go about things, like you know burn out hot and go out on fire like because i think that that and that and that's i mean at a certain point along your course you got to make a decision you have to make a decision about what you know because you can you can get caught into that right you can get caught into that. And there's something pretty selfish about that, actually. And because at the end, I mean, when you die, you don't care, but what about all the

people that care about you? And so in a way, you got your people that you love, your family, your friends, these other people that... So some of it becomes that. Some of it becomes like, hey, you know what? Do I want to do that to my kids? Do I want to do that to my wife? I mean, we don't know the time or the place, of course, no one does. And it could be in 10 minutes, it could be in 10 days, could be in 10 years, could be, you know, we don't know that, right? So, but the honest way to go about it is, okay, we're, you know, we always go, any risk-taking that we take, it's all about, there's a kind of a methodical process that we go through in that. So that the more dangerous it is, the slower you go, the more preparation you have, the more, there's a certain formulaic process that you do to do things that are-

And muting out all the external noise, right? So that you can hear your intuition and you know when it's the right moment. And be good with saying no. Yeah. Be good with like, you know what? I don't feel it. Like today's off or you're-

Like when Alex Honnold's on the wall, he was gonna make the ascent. That was the best thing ever. Yeah, he's like, I'm not doing it today. I respected that particular scene in the film. All the cameramen are up there, they're ready to go. That's the exact, that's perfect. I go that, I, I, I respect that. Not, you know what, go anyway and then timber because you, you sensed it, but, but the pressure of all the whole thing, I, I can, I can appreciate that because it's knowing how to make the, that's a big judgment call.

That's huge. Yeah. Because those guys were already, all the cameramen had scaled up. There was a lot of stuff that was already in motion. So being able to like completely tune that out and not have that be part of the calculus about whether you're gonna do that hard thing or not.

Important. Takes a lot, that takes like a, you know, a solid, you know, barometer. Important. Yeah. Important. Takes a lot, that takes like a, you know, a solid, you know, barometer. Important. Yeah. Yeah. And I think that that, but that's a reflection of the real barometer that allows you to do the other thing too. So at the end of the day, it takes a certain, you know, for him to do that, actually be able to do that climb, you really have to have a certain, because people, you know, I think when people watch things that are, that are, you know, in, in, from their perspective, you know, beyond understanding,

they, they, they like to put a, they like to disclaim it as, okay, that, that's just a reckless person. That person just is, they're just, you know, they're just reckless. They don't want to say, hey, no, that's some calculated, well, you know, well orchestrated, prepared. It's the end point on a multi-decade journey that this person's been on. Yeah. You know, it's easy to look at you and say, well, Laird, you know, of course Laird can do that because Laird's Laird. Yeah. And certainly you have, you know, some genetic gifts and you have a certain level of talent, but to dismiss what you're doing is just,

oh, well, that's because he's layered, is to deny like all the work that you've done, like this dedication that you've shown over the course of your entire life to get you to the point where you can drop in on a wave that nobody's ever surfed before. Yeah, well, that's, and I think that's the, I think that that's always the part where, you know,

when they talk about people being adrenaline junkies and they go, oh, that guy's just an adrenaline junkie. I think that's a way to let them off the hook so they don't have to actually, you know, to do the work and pursue the thing that they might be interested in actually in. But they'd be like, oh yeah, no, that's just, that's just the way, you know, that's the way,

just a disclaimer to let people off. It's an easy, yeah, it's an easy way for people to not have to look in the mirror and evaluate, you know, where they might have more potential because that's scary. Scary. A lot of people don't want to do that. They don't. You know? No. But at the same time, there is that kind of, you know, addiction junkie mentality. There is a, there's a strain of that in all extreme sports in life, but, you know, it's certainly part of the kind of historical record of surfing. I mean, you know, you grew up in a culture of like play hard, play hard, right. But you've emerged from that as somebody who I look at as part of, I would suspect now the young surfers look to people like yourselves. It's not about the partying lifestyle.

It's really about how can I optimize my performance and body, mind, and spirit, right? Like you sort of set the tone for this next generation of surfers. And you see it, like the Smith brothers are all about that. Like there's like, it's a healthier ecosystem right now. Well, you know, I, listen, I, I was, I was around a lot of radical stuff growing up and, and, and, and, you know, I can remember, you know, seeing guys that you looked up to that were like your heroes. And then you'd see them on a, you know, on a park bench with a paper bag and, you know, falling over and, and just how, how painful that was as a young guy you see.

And you're like, you were the guy who you were, that I looked up to, right? You're my hero. And there you are in the gutter. And, and, and, and I saw it more than once. And, are in the gutter. And I saw it more than once. And I think, you know, I felt like that if I was ever in that position, that I would look at it like a responsibility. If I'm fortunate enough that somebody will look up to me and for some reason at all, I don't want to ever give them an excuse to justify and include my children. You know what mean it's like i i i i was i used to um well i used to but i i loved you know i love red wine i'd go to france i had french company i'd go to bordeaux they'd send me cases of the you know most beautiful pinot noirs in the world and i'd be like you know this gorgeous stuff and i was like but i liked it maybe a little too much so

i was like you know what i don't want anything to have quite that kind of power over me that I could, because my mother was a drinker and, you know, we have long family, you know, relationship with drinking. I'm like, you know what? I think that's going to be a problem. So if my daughters decide that they want to drink, it won't be because it was just part of what we did at our house. And it was just like, accept it. I'm going to, it's going to be because they discover it on their own and they do it on their own, but it's not going to be because of me. So a little bit, you know, I think a combination of all those things, I've seen, seeing guys that, you know, ruin their lives. And I've seen deaths like bunker speckles, you know, overdosing and guys, you know, and then, and then heroes being in, you know, just zero to hero to zero. And then

you're looking at that guy and you're like, wow, what a bummer that is. And what disappointment that is. And, you know, and at the end of the day, you know, leading by example, like in a way, it's the same thing as parenting too. You can say whatever you want. They're just watching what you're doing. Right. So it's like at the end of the day, and I think that's true with, you know, if you're

in a position of influence, I mean, and I see it in a lot of major sports. I see, you know, a lot of, you know, influential athletes promoting, you know, stuff that's, you know, poison to people and, you know, for money. But obviously, they probably have enough money. They really don't need to do it. At the end of the day, it'd be kind of good to have some discretion, kind of go, you know what, probably not that stuff because that stuff's not so great. And then every little kid that looks up to you thinks that they can drink that and it's going to make them like you or whatever that.

So I think there's a lot of things that, you know, and then don't forget just wanting to have optimum performance. Like wanting to be able to continue to perform at a certain level and, you know, be the gray hair at the end, be on the top of the mountain. And you're not going to do that, you know, being stupid. So. Well, you've always had this growth mindset, right? Like you're always devoted to like trying to iterate and innovate and all these things. And that's, I think, harder than it seems or it looks. Like most people kind of figure out what their lane is and then, you know, they become successful in that lane. And then you get calcified around that. It becomes harder to be creative and to question your set of beliefs or your approach, you know, as an athlete, like this is how I, this is how I optimize my performance. And then you don't want to hear about any new ideas or

anything else, but you seem like somebody who's always been really open to learning and experimenting. You know, I attribute part of that to the way I grew up. So because I was, you know, I grew up in an environment where there was a racial thing against guys that looked like me. guys that look like me. And so I was already, I kind of had, I had that, I think that was helpful because I had, you know, I always used to say, you know, if people don't like you for how you're born, then why would it bother you if they don't like how you behave? And so at the end of the day, it's like, I think that being the willingness to be a beginner again and, and, and not, and, and be okay with people laughing at you and like you being like, you know, hey, I'm gonna try this thing and it's stupid. And people are like, that's so dumb.

Why do you, you know, I mean, multiple times through some innovations that we were involved in, we had people just naysayers going, that's lame. You're, you know, that's not surfing or what you're doing is not this. So I was used to that. And then it becomes almost a formula.

And, you know, I talked to my friend Paul the other day about, you know, how we like the early part of the curve. You know, that early part of the curve is nice and steep when you go from, you know, a beginner to like starting to become proficient at anything. It's a really fulfilling thing. And then once you're at this other thing, you're at a real, you know, you're at a plateau and you're just scraping for, you know, for little tiny, you know, millimeters. And, you know, I talk about surfing and you look at the amount of hours that we have and you go, okay, well, another hour on the 30 or 40, you know, or 50,000 hours that you

have, you think that's going to make you better or is being more flexible going to make you better? Or is being stronger going to make you better? Or, you know, is these other things are going to have more of an influence, but you got to be willing to be a beginner. I think the biggest thing is about being a beginner and willing to subject yourself to failure and being okay with that. I think I've been hurt. I've had enough injuries that helped me with that process where you wonder if you're ever going to be able to do the thing you did and then not being, and then having a, you know, I think, I mean, to not be a narcissist

and to not be a, have an ego and all that, that's impossible. There's no way you're not gonna have some narcissism or some ego aspect to you. Yeah, I mean, you have to have a bit of an audacious sense of self to even attempt these things. And there's a healthy aspect to that. It's about keeping it in check, right?

And making sure that it's not ruling the roost. Exactly, exactly. So, I mean, that's an important piece to it, but willing to fail, being okay with failing is important. And I think, and then what happens is you do it a couple of times and then you're like, oh yeah, I know I'm at this part in that journey. And then you do it a couple times and then you're like, oh, yeah, I know. I'm at this part in that journey.

And then you do it again. Then it becomes almost a formula, right? There becomes a formulaic aspect to learning, right? Or creativity when you have an idea and you're on a napkin and then you make a prototype. Then you break it and you crash and you can't do it. Then you can kind of start to do it. And then eventually you get to a point where it's something that you can do well and you have't do it, then you can kind of start to do it. And then eventually you get to a point where it's something that you can do well, and it's, you have things for it. And then it's, and then, and then it's not as interesting at that point. It becomes a little less interesting.

And I think one thing I've been conscious of, and I've, it's, and lately it's, it's, it's happened a little bit, you know, happened a few times where you don't become victim to your past, where you don't become victim to your past successes by saying, I gotta go back out and show everybody. Yeah. Like- Yeah, that was what I was gonna ask him. Like when you, you know, hey, I'm the big wave guy and then somebody else goes, finds another wave

and surfs a bigger one. Do you feel like you gotta get out there and show them who's boss? You know, you're over here tinkering in your garage with new shit, but there's gotta be some aspect of you. There is. But again, I think, but, but that's where I said, having a good perspective about your ego's voice. Like what, what is that in you? That's doing it. Like what, why is there something saying you need to go show these, show people what you can do? You, you, you, you did that and you've showed that. And in a way,

I can do that and I do aspects of it, whether it's on purpose or not, but it doesn't bring me the kind of joy or the kind of satisfaction or fulfillment that doing something that I haven't done does. And I start to realize that I really am inspired by doing things I haven't done does. And I start to realize, you know, that I really am inspired by doing things I haven't done. Like that's the more, whether it's a distance I haven't done or a height I haven't done or speed I haven't done or something, but something that I haven't done is a lot more fulfilling. That just brings you a lot more satisfaction. Well, it's freeing too, because you're liberated from measuring yourself against past successes, right? I mean, as somebody who, I mean,

you're already somebody who doesn't really care about what other people think anyway, which is healthy. That's helpful. Yeah, that is helpful. But at the same time, like I know when I go to the pool, like I don't wanna look at the pace clock because I'm used to clocking certain kind of intervals and I'm not able to do that now.

So it changes your relationship. And I'm you know, I'm not able to do that now. So it changes your relationship. That's a setup. And I'm doing it. Yeah, it's a setup. And it's like, I have to constantly remind myself, I'm doing this because it brings me joy, you know? Absolutely. What else can I do? Or can I do something different? I'm not innovating in the sport like you are in surfing, but you have to recalibrate your relationship to these things and not hold yourself to some standard that's going to cause you suffering, right? And I think by opting out and just being like,

well, I'm going to go do all... And then you're constantly a newcomer, you're new, and you're always progressing and learning. So you're getting fulfilled through that process. And then that's usually big improvements. Those are big successes, not from doing something that you can't do to being able to do it. That's a huge success. You couldn't, you did. Not you did something at this level and maybe you're doing it at that level, maybe not quite at that level. I go, that's just a setup for failure. And there's a great quote that I love that it says, never let your memories be bigger than your dreams.

And I have to say that I really, I think that that's important because I have friends that, you know, have played professional sports and then they're retired and everything's about what they did. Right. And it's not what they're doing or what they're going to do. There's nothing they're ever going to do in their life that's going to recapture that like sense of glory of being in the Coliseum. No. Right. Yeah. So how do you move forward? Right. So that, so, so, and that's, that, that transition's pretty tricky. I think I've been- And they're 28. Yeah. Yeah. By the way. And there's probably, that means you're probably, you know, there could be 40 or 50 more years. So, you know, and so I think that that's, you know, the irony is, is that maybe, maybe I didn't, maybe early on, I didn't get, I wasn't in the Coliseum and I didn't get the glory, but then I also don't get the downfall of having gotten the glory. And I can just kind of, it's kind of like, it's a flat,

you know, it just kind of keeps going along, which, you know, it's not on purpose. It just ended up that that's how it, how it's worked out. And, and also knowing that you can go and, and, and without approval, you can be fulfilled. So I can go out and I can do something. Like I'm at a stage right now where I can get a couple friends and we can go somewhere and we can do something and no one sees it. There's not a video. There's not a film.

There's nothing. No one even knows. And it works and it's great. And you come back and you feel like, you feel when you did something that everybody saw and everybody said was great, or people saw and said sucked, but you didn't, so you almost, it's nice to be at that stage. It's just for you. It makes it a little bit more special. That's pretty nice. Because then ultimately you're in, you know, that you're not relying on the approval of other people, which at the end, they really, truly, really, they don't care. At the end, they really don't care about you like you care about you, you know?

Yeah. The funny thing about innovation is that it does require a certain level of like foresight because we always think we're at the end point of everything. Like it's, everything has progressed to its ultimate pinnacle already, right? When surfing was at a certain competitive apex with the short boards and all the, you know, like the competitions is like, well, there's nothing left to be said or done here, right? And to be able to think outside the box and say, well, what if we try this? What if we try that? Requires a certain, you know, there's something very unique about being able to see what nobody else can see. Well, that's what I, and that's what I said to you initially was having the understanding of what things mean.

Like if I make this glass, right? If I have this thing and I think about I'm going to make this thing and it's going to shape like that and you're going to be able to put stuff in there, you know, and you're going to be able to hold it and then you're going to be able to drink out of it. Like, but you got to see that, right? You have to be able to see what the function will be at the end because that's the only way that you get the motivation to actually continue the process because it's a pretty R&D and that kind of development development that's some can be pretty discouraging like there's some discouraging aspects to to ideas that um and one of them is other people like the the truth is there's a a woman who who had some in did some incredible innovation i don't even know her name or or what she did but i do i appreciated what she

said which is they asked her, you know, when you have a great idea, you know, you know, what should you do? And she goes, just don't tell anybody for at least a year because they will discourage you. They'll be like, you know what, that cup thing that you have, that's a terrible idea. And, and it'll sink in. You'll be like, and then when you break the first one and the second one and the third one. She was right, too hard. Too hard. And then you stop.

And then that's where. So I think there has to be. And that's why I talk about dog with the bone. You know, that relentless thing that you're not really, it's not really a goal, but somehow you're just constantly, you just always go back to it. You're like, oh, the thing, I like it. And then you go back to it. And I have ideas that I've been thinking about that I've gone away from. And then eventually I come back over here and I'm like, oh yeah, yeah. And then I go away and I do some other idea and that, and then I go back to

the one and then you just keep, and eventually that one just pops its head. And, you know, I mean, I think everything's about timing. I mean, we know that it's like, you could do, you know, a good idea, you know, 10 years ago is not a good idea today. Or, you know, there's ideas today that won't be good for 10 more years. You know, it's like, it's just all, you know. Right, right, right. Yeah, I think the foiling thing is a good example of that. It is. Because the technology is at a point where they can, you know, make this available to consumers with the electric foil. I mean, that stuff's crazy. It's suddenly out of the blue, right? Yeah. So when you look back- It seems out of the blue, but it's not.

It's like- You're like, not for me. I've been doing this forever. We've been foiling for 15 years. I know. But you know what? We talk about that in success too, when the guys go, hey, they overnight success. And the guy's like, hey, I've been doing this for, you know, I've been doing it for 10 or 15 years. It's like, you know, it's, it's interesting how that, you know, when you look back though, you know, and think about the early days of you getting up on standup paddle boards when no one was doing it. And now you look around and everybody's doing it. I mean, there has to be like a certain level of satisfaction. Like, I mean, you've

created like this cultural groundswell, like this popular sport that so many people are doing because you thought, hey, I should get a longer paddle so I can stand up on this thing. Yeah, well, and Gabby and I talk about it and I think for me, in a way, those are my reward, those are the rewards, those are the trophies. That's like my trophy. Like people are like, I don't have a trophy case. I don't have a bunch of things. Like look at all my trophies, all my championships, all my stuff. I don't have any of that stuff.

So in a way, those are, you know, those, that's fulfilling when you see the impact it has. Yeah. Yeah. So I see that you get to see, I mean, when you see a guy in Dubai with a turban paddling like that, you're like, that went a long way. That's wild. That went around the whole planet. I was watching you foil on Nazare and it's just wild to watch that. And what was interesting is that it allows you to surf the wave in a completely different way. Like you're not relying upon it cresting. Like you're able to ride it much earlier

and it gives you this longer ride. So it's a completely different relationship with the wave that that technology, you know, makes available. Yeah, it totally re, what's interesting we talk about because of that, that we have to re, like the definition of an unmakeable, a wave, you know, an unmakeable wave is changed. You know, what was unmakeable before now all of

a sudden becomes makeable or what was unrideable before now becomes rideable. So the parameters all change, which is interesting how you, you know, you, you just have a different device. And now the way we look at waves and what's rideable, like that's our biggest thing. Like, like looking, there's new waves that are, that wouldn't, that would never be considered for surf for conventional surfing.

Now, all of a sudden, it opens up the whole new set of circumstances, which is, which is, you know, which in a ever populated earth is pretty great when there's new front tiers.

And it can, I guess that continues to happen with a lot of innovations, but where there's just like a whole new frontier where like in a world where everything's saturated, like all, you know, most of the great surf spots on the, on earth,

people know, and they're at, and they're surfing and those numbers are increasing. And there's only so many ways now they're, you know, now they're making wave pools and stuff to try to make up for that for that. But to be able to have a whole new, you know, a whole new search is- It's cool. Yeah. But I wonder, you know, it wasn't until

maybe a couple of years ago that I'd even heard of Nazare. Did that just, I mean, so it seems like in that kind of timeline of iteration, there was Makaha, then there was Waimea, then there was Mavericks all of a sudden, then it was about Third Reef Waimea, then there was Jaws, and then Tiapu, and then Nazare, right? So it makes me think there probably is another wave out there that no one's found. There is. There's always another wave. I mean, Nazare in itself is a, you know, it's a, there's a couple things happening in Nazarene, which is a very photographable wave. Right, because you get the foreground of the lighthouse or whatever that gives that perspective. And the angle of the cliff, which shows you the bottom curvature of the face. And the wave also does a thing where it stands up for a second. It's not, I mean, and nothing against Nazare, but it's not like an optimum performance surfing wave like Jaws is. Like Jaws still at this moment is the best big wave performance wave in the world.

There's just, there's no, I mean, I don't care what big wave you go to, you take all the big wave riders, they'll all agree when you go to Jaws, you know. I mean, the one thing about Nazarene is that it has a, there's a consistency to it. And when it doubles up, it has a, you know, kind of a geographical phenomenon where the wave doubles up and two waves come together that's why they get that the extreme height of it so there's a lot so there's a lot of a lot of that around around naziray that and it's in front of a cliff so it's extremely dangerous but as far as surfing goes like as a surfer you look at that wave you're like that's not an ideal way for surfing

like as a as a as a where jaws you would say that but the the truth is is that nazare wouldn't wouldn't even be nazare without towing that towing because you wouldn't you wouldn't even be able to you wouldn't go there you wouldn't you wouldn't do it that that's why it wasn't a surf spot because towing opened it up and made it become a spot so now it's a spot because of towing without towing i mean you mean, you can surf Nazare on the small days, like conventional prone paddling, but it's not a- It was, no. It's not, it's a, yeah. And the foiling was at the break next to Nazare, right?

Yeah, well, we, well, both, Nazare, and there's another wave up the coast from Nazare that for foiling was perfect. So, and actually it was probably great on this last giant swell that they had, but they weren't letting us into the country over there. Right. So, yeah. When were you there?

Like in the spring? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I was there in what? February, February, March. Yeah. Yeah. Let's talk about the fitness journey and the pool workout. Legendary. It's been going on for a long time. Lots of dudes, you know, are part of that community.

I've got tons of friends who are either part of it or have dropped in at some time or another. It's almost mythic at this point. It begins with Don Wildman, really. So let's talk about Don a little bit. Don, the king. I miss Don. So Don, one of my heroes is, will be, and always will be,

was, is, and he's passed away. But Mr. Wildman, you know, started Bally's Health Clubs. Right. Started, he was a founder of the largest health club chain in the U.S., was in the Korean War when he was 17 and did the Ironman, what, didn't, first one when he was 50, I think. Yeah. Did 10 or 11 Ironmans and, you know, used to do all of the senior games in Utah, all the bike racing stuff. And him and I, I met him at a helicopter snowboarding resort in Canada randomly.

Some guy just says, hey, that's Mr. Wildman. You need to meet him. Go over there. And so I said, hey, went over there and, hey, nice to meet you. And he was sitting there and then cut to like two years, three years later, I was down in Malibu at a restaurant that we eat breakfast, walked in there. Gabby and I had just moved there and he happened to live right up the street. And then him and I just started spending time together and, you know, doing a bunch of crazy things. He just was an endurance monster.

Right. And he, you know, and- He just destroyed anybody on a bike. Yeah. He just was a monster when it came to just, you know, suffering. He was a king of suffering. He loved suffering. Yeah. Yeah. So that was the original crew, right? Like he had this spot down at the beach and then you guys would meet up there and do pull-ups and- Yeah. And his crazy gym, he had a crazy circuit workout

that'd take you two and a half hours. And then we'd ride the bike after to go eat breakfast. And then I kind of brought all the water stuff to him. So it was like, he swam, cause he, you know, triathlons and stuff, but he never, so I got him into foiling and stand up paddling and all that kind of stuff. And so we started, you know started venturing into the water.

Right. And I did the race across America with him, at least part of it. Yeah, I remember that. Yeah, we did part of that. So something happened halfway in and you ended up- Well, our guy got hit. One of our teammates got run over by the opposing team's escort vehicle, broke my friend's leg. So that put us out of the race.

And because we were trying to, we were trying to, Don was trying to break the record. He just wanted to go break the record with a bunch of people that no one heard of. It was like a four-man team? Yeah, four-man relay. And then you ended up like paddle boarding down the Mississippi or something like that? Well, I did the Colorado. I did the Colorado. I've been down the Colorado stand-up paddle and a bunch of, you know, all that suffering.

I think our best one was we did, I call it the Hawaii 500, but we biked every island in Hawaii and paddled every channel consecutively. So we biked across a big island, like 125, 130 miles from South Point to the tip. And then we paddled to Maui. Then we biked across Maui. Then we paddleddled to Maui. Then we biked across Maui. Then we paddled to Molokai. Then we biked across Molokai. We paddled to Oahu, biked across Oahu,

and then paddled to Kauai. The last paddle was 22 hours. So I paddled 22 hours to Kauai. And then we rode the- That's intense. Then we, yeah. That was suffering, pain and suffering. I did five Ironmans on the five Hawaiian islands in a row.

I thought that was badass, but I wasn't paddling in between the islands. I took an airplane. Yeah, no, but so that was, we've had some, well, I had some fun with Don. Don and I- And he was crushing it, right? He passed at 85, right?

So he was crushing it all the way to the end. To the last month, he just, he tapered off and that was it. He had some lung stuff. I kind of feel like maybe it was attributed to all those hours on PCH, you know, riding that bike and breathing heavy with all those cars. I think probably it was in my mind. I was just like something. But, you know, he went out like he wanted to. Like he was good, solid to the end.

I think we had done a helicopter snowboarding trip to Chile the summer before. So that was pretty, that was pretty great. Yeah. That's wild. Yeah. And I remember one of the guides, we were down there and one of the guides said, how, because he was, he'd snowboard and he'd go fakie, which is when you flip around and ride the reverse stance, which, you know, the kids go fakie, right? Yeah. not the 80, you know, the 85-year-old, not the 85-year-old.

Yeah, it's like jackass, like Johnny Knoxville dressed up as an old guy doing that. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But it's Don Wildman. But it's actually the guy. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, so. So what did you take from that? I mean, other than like, he just never stopped. Yeah. Right. Just staying in it.

Well, a rolling stone gathers no moss, you know, and a running car keeps running. So I think, you know, I looked at Don as someone that was a lover of life. Like he was really like, whenever, you know, I remember, you know, we'd have dinner and he'd be like, this is the best dinner I've ever had. And then a week later, he'd be over at be like, this is the best dinner I've ever had. And then a week later, he'd be over at the house and this is the best dinner I'd ever had. And he would be, you know, his grandkids would send him some radical hardcore music and he'd be playing it in his Porsche and stuff. And, you know, I mean, he was super. But that's that beginner's mind, right?

Beginner's mind. Yeah. Crazy beginner's mind and willing to, I mean, when you're 80 something, you're still going to, you're going to be pretty crusty in certain ways. You're, you know, you're going to, but he was willing to subject himself to, he'd always do new stuff. I could get him, if I said, you know, I go, hey, you want to go dive with the sharks? Oh yeah, sure. Great. Hey, you want to go skydive?

Oh yeah. Hey, you want to go sail on the America's, oh yeah. I mean, it's like, I'd invite him on the most random stuff. America's got, oh yeah. I mean, it's like, I'd invite him on the most random stuff. He always said yes, unless he had some other plans already and was willing to subject himself to that, to that, you know, that learning curve. And his name was actually Wildman.

Which is the best part. People go, well, how come you call him the Wildman? I go, well, that's his name. Like Donahue Wildman. It's just perfect. Perfect. You can't make it up. That's what I'm saying. You can't make that stuff up. So for me, I think to know him, it was interesting because

I've had friends that have passed away that I had remorse for. And Don was one of the first guys that I'd ever, I didn't feel bad about him. You know, I mean, of course I miss him and we think about him all the time and talk about him, but I didn't miss him like I had other friends. Cause I, I didn't, there was nothing I felt like that. No stone unturned. No stone unturned. That he was, that was all good. And he, and he, and he crescendoed like he wanted to, he wanted to go out, you know, being the guy that you remember and not withering away.

And I think, so I think all of that, I think that it really, it was, it was like remorse. There was like, there was no remorse. There was no, there was no, which was pretty great. I'm like, if I can live a life like that, where people around you feel like there's nothing, you know, there's nothing remorse. Okay. Hey, you miss a couple of people you miss. And of course, and some of the stuff that you leave behind people that are hurt, but, and that's, that's gonna, there's no way out, you know, there's nothing remorse. Okay. Hey, you miss a couple of people you miss. And of course, and some of this stuff that you leave behind people that are hurt, but, and that's, that's

going to, there's no way out, you know, without that happening. But that guy lives on and what you do now with the, with the pool workout, right? Lives on. Yeah. And, and, and, you know, I think for me, you know, I always, I get bored easy and I think connected to the innovation and I don't, I try to get out of these ruts. I like to try to keep learning and getting taxed, you know, like getting taxation from the learning. You know, I told somebody when you ever, you know, when you learn something, how sore are you?

And then, you know, after you've done it for six months, how less sore are you? And when you've done it for a year, you're not even sore anymore. It's like the first time you run a mile, you're like, you feel like you're broken. And then, then you got to run two and then pretty soon you got to run 10 and then pretty soon you got to run 50. It's like, there's no, you just have to keep building where, so I think there's something about that, about doing new things. And the pool really came out of my disdain for like traditional swimming. Like, you know, I'd be like the orca with the floppy fin you put me in the pool to make me swim i'd feel like i need you know i love in the ocean and mask and fins and you know seeing and and being moved and so you know a lot of my pool the pool stuff really was a marriage between

the gym and swimming like how could i marriage you know weight lifting and swimming and and uh which resulted in kind of a pretty you know and then we throw in heat and ice and, and which resulted in kind of a pretty, you know, and then we throw in heat and ice and some other, you know, other kind of exposure stuff and breath work and just always trying to change it up, just looking for, you know, looking, looking to make it new and, and interesting and, and, and, and try to stay out of those ruts, you know, because it's just those, they're easy to get in. And before you know it, you're, you know, the bottom's sitting on the ground.

You could play around within the rut and think that you're innovating, but you're still very much in the rut. Like that's something that I definitely plead guilty to, you know, and then I'll convince myself that I'm working on my weaknesses, but I'm really not. Yeah. Because I really don't want to,

I don't want to work on the weaknesses because that sucks, right? Yeah. Because you're don't want to, I don't want to work on the weaknesses because that sucks. Yeah. Right? Yeah. Because you're gonna not feel good. No, it's true. You know?

It's true. But still it all hearkens back to Hawaii because the original, you know, pool workout is carrying stones along the bottom, you know, running along the bottom of the ocean. Absolutely. Which is something I've done. It's not fucking easy.

Absolutely. Well, and ultimately, when you think about that dynamic of stone carrying and running, not a lot to do with swimming. No, not at all. It has a lot to do with breath holding and legs. And legs burn the most oxygen. So whenever you incorporate dynamic leg, you know from the monofin or anytime you're using, getting the quads going, man, the breathing goes way up. I mean, you look at long distance swimming,

it's like, don't move the legs. You know, drag them. Drag them. Drag them because they're gonna burn oxygen. No forward propulsion is worth the amount of energy expenditure of using your legs. Exactly, unless you have some giant fins on and that's a different discipline.

But so that's, so a lot of it came out of that. And then just, first of all, being in the water, back to the water. So we're back in the water, we're in the water. Breath holding, fear of drowning, that stuff is really powerful. That's right there with falling and being burned and being eaten by giant animals.

So whenever you deal with that kind of psychology about holding your breath underwater and you can't breathe underwater no matter who you are yet. So that's a big psychology, right? What that environment represents. And then you can be, you know, you're in a pool at my house. So it's pretty controlled. So you can, then we can kind of ratchet the, you know, there's some fear things that we can deal with, um, in that environment that, that, you know, and then compression, you know, we learn about compression, compression and blood flow through the lymphatic system that, you know, like in an hour, your,

your body circulates the blood through it that normally takes like 24 hours. So you have some, yeah, it's a different thing. Yeah, it's a different thing. And then you can be real aggressive. You know, I take some basketball guys and we do a bunch of jumping work and all of a sudden their verticals increase and you can take a guy that probably shouldn't jump a lot because they're so giant,

but they can jump hundreds of times without all that impact. Yeah, you remove that thing that's causing all the injuries, right? It creates this supportive tissue around you. Exactly. And it also exhausts you more than anything. I mean, there's something about whatever you're doing in the pool, man, you will sleep well at night.

You will. I don't know what that's about, but I can go out and run for hours or ride my bike, but nothing makes me as tired as being in the water. Well, I mean, listen, if they're saying a two and a half mile swim is worth 125 mile bike and a 24 mile run, that's, they're telling you what the, you know, the difficulty, like you're saying like two miles, two and a half miles is equivalent

to these other things. I think a lot of it is temperature. Yeah. I think the temperature, even if it's- Yeah, you gotta regulate. Well, yeah, your water's 70, even the water's 70, it's still not 98.

That's 30 degree, you know, 28 degree temperature difference. That's over time. So I think there's that. And then the psychology and then the breathing, you know. But we love the water work for that. And for us, it correlates to our relationship with, you know, being in the big ocean and being in the big surf. You can move, you know. relationship with you know being in the big ocean and being in the big surf you can move you know one of my theories is that that you will gain technique out of necessity right because if you

in order to swim a giant dumbbell across the pool you're gonna have to be efficient like i don't care what your stroke looks like and i can get a stroke coach and be like well you should move your arm to do your thing i go here's a dumbbell swim it over swim it over there. And if you can swim that dumbbell over there, you're doing something right. You're learning, you're knowing, you know, it's kind of like putting a giant pack on. You carry a huge pack and you take it off. Probably gonna be faster, you know?

It's like- Yeah, yeah. When you add the survival aspect into it, right? You gotta get to the other side somehow. Exactly. And you're gonna use all your limbs to do it. Anything you can to get there. Well, it's also, it's still like, there's not, it's not like anybody else is doing

this, right? So that it's so open-ended in terms of like the innovation, I'm sure. It's amazing to me, it's amazing to me that, that it's not, that they're not, that it's not being applied. It hasn't been applied. You know, it's like one of those things like you'd think that i mean i know from what you know and we're always being creative now we're starting to be able to kind of combine stuff so we have a couple you know different things and we put them together make hybrids so like circuit training like you know in weight lifting you have all these different techniques and then you start to combine them and then you have yourself some new, you know, there's always a new-

Like a program, right? Yeah, yeah. Do you make, you have like an app, right? The XPT. We do. XPT, so you make that available to people? But the pool, but not the pool. Because the pool is so specialized.

Yeah. You know, it's just, the water is not something to go subject people to. Don't sue there. Yeah, breath work. Basically. Yeah. But the pool we need, I mean, go subject people to breath work. Don't, don't do it. No, basically. Yeah.

But the pool we need, I mean, we, we, we, we are very selective about, we have trainers for XPT, you know, for the, for the fitness stuff, but for the pool, pool specific training, we've had very few people that we would, that will license to become a pool, just because of, because of the water. Yeah. It's like, it's not, this isn't something to fool around with. Especially when you have weight. And then throw in, you know, a 200 degree sauna in between sets. Right.

If it's light. And a cold plunge. So it's like working those protocols into the actual workout itself. Yeah. Because you think of those as a post-workout thing, right? Or a pre-workout thing. But to drop that into the middle of the whole thing creates like a whole different kind of stress. Yeah. We've been doing some interesting stuff

too, like, cause we're always looking for ways to, you know, it's like, you know, run a mile, run two miles, but you have to keep making the thing longer because you get kind of better at it. You adapt, you know, that we're such adaptable creatures. We adapt quickly to things. So we shake it up. But, you know, one of the things that we've been doing, I mean, we put the, you know, we put the assault bikes and some of the other stuff in the saunas.

But we do one of these protocols where we do, where we ride some sort of cardio assault rowing machine, something that boosts your cardio. And then we go into the ice plunge and we do, we go back and forth between those. And that just has a pretty profound effect on you. It gives you a good hammering, but you know, just when you think, well, we say just when you think it was safe to, you know, to do heat and ice and do the thing, now you gotta, you know, now you gotta do, but we do, but we just, I guess we do that out of more out of our kind of our interests are, you know, in our search, our discovery. It's more out of discovery.

Like, Hey, what if you do this? Oh, that's cool. Let's try that and see. And a lot of it comes from that. It comes from that innocent, you know, that like that child, like, you know, why are kids so good with certain things? Like they get a, they get a, you know, a new phone and they're all of a sudden doing everything because they just, they don't just go, well, what if I, I don't know if I should. And, you know, they, they just go into, and I think

that's, I think that that's, that's healthy. I think it's go about it, whatever you're doing, go in. It's like good chefs are, oh, I didn't think that that curcumin would make that better or whatever. just yeah you know it's just and then that's the same i think in innovation is really again a formula it's like you can put it in whatever you're doing it doesn't i don't think there's a i think the basic structure of it is the same no matter what no matter what genre you're in just change the backdrop like what what is it fitness is it nutrition is it is it sport is it art is it, what, what is it? Fitness? Is it nutrition? Is it, is it sport? Is it art? Is it tech? Is it, what is it? It's like, it's curiosity, willingness to try things and then

take kind of remote taking failure off the table. Right. It's not about that. It's like, we're just, we're going to pull on these threads and see where it leads us. For sure. And failures and failures part of that process. Yeah. That's just your, that's part of what you're doing. That's. Failure is part of that process. That's just your, that's part of what you're doing. So you're, what are you, 56 now? 56? Yeah. What, like, what are you, like I'm 54, so, you know, it's like trying to figure out

how to continue to stay fit, stay engaged, try new things. But are there certain things where you're like, oh, I can't do that anymore, or I've noticed this about like how I'm aging. So I have to, you know, adjust, like where are you at with all of that? Well, most of the things I'm doing is not so measurement oriented.

I don't have all those data stuff to use that against me. It's smart, yeah. There's some of that, I don't have that. Well, I only ran that mile at a one, you know, I don't have all those numbers that would probably show some deterioration. I mean, I just think it's part of the nature. Yeah, but you're also so attuned with your own body. You know where you're at. Yeah.

You don't need all those things. So a lot of it is, you know, I guess for me, a lot of it is I'm just not doing a lot of the same things that I've been doing. And I'm more, you know, a lot of my training really has been not to hurt myself because in the past, a lot of my training really has been not to hurt myself because in the past, a lot of times you get, your training injures you and then you're kind of like, oh, that's not great. So lately it's been more about that, right? It's a little bit more about, okay. And, you know, I think the holistic thing is, is become, I'm better at it. Like I'm better at my diet, my sleep, my workout that's not hurting me. My, you know, so I'm in a way, I think, you know, whether my performances are, you know,

I just don't, I don't, I don't have any real tangible measurements of, you know, hey, I'm not as fast up the hill. I mean, I know when I, when I, you know, if I go get my 18, you know, hey, I'm not as fast up the hill. I mean, I know when I, you know, if I go get my 18-year-old protege with me and I go up the hill, then he kind of, you know, disappears. I'm like, well, I might not be back here when I was 18. Let's just put it that way. Is this this guy, Luca, that's living with you? Yeah, yeah.

I was hearing about this guy. Yeah, yeah. So he's a young, big- Young, big wave rider. Yep, from Half Moon Bay. And you just took him in? Well, yeah. Gabby thought it would be good for me, you know, since I'm in a house with all women. So she met him and he was, you know, young and full of testosterone and looking to be an aspiring, it looks like he's an aspiring SEAL at this point.

So he's aspiring to become a SEAL. So I have a lot of friends that are in the SEALs that are out and in. And so I've been exposing him to that. So he has a better idea of what that will entail. He's a big wave surfer. He's a little bit of a throwback, a pretty rare type of person in this day and age.

He's kind of like, you know, like a 1950s Cro-Magnon man, like a little bit like this is the way his mind works. And so he's been good. He helps us. He helps, you know, helps us at our home with all the details because we have a lot of stuff going on when you have daughters and people and stuff. He's really been with us to train, and it's been nice to watch him implement our work and then see the result that it's had on him, and it's made him strong. So it's cool to see, to watch him pool train and do high X with know, do high X with gaps, circuit train, pool train, do all this stuff, breath work and heat and ice and all that stuff and watch it, watch him kind of, you know, kind of benefit. It seems like it's your way of paying forward what you received,

right? Like the, you know, you've, you've been the beneficiary of having like strong men in your life to be guiding forces from your stepdad and Don and et cetera, right? So now you can do that for this kid, which is cool. Well, I think that's also, what do they say too? At a certain point after you march on the ladder, maybe you either wanna be a king or a wizard, right? Or you wanna be, you wanna do whatever that looks like. And I don't mean a king in the

in the same of but you're just not one of the soldiers fighting in the thing and that you can be it's more about a wizard i kind of like the with you know you're like the wizard and and the guys come to see you and i always thought that when like i was when i was young i wanted to be like just like a you know a guy so like the way you go see the wizard he's in the barn over there like you go it's like that though you know what i mean like you go see the wizard, he's in the barn over there. Like you go- It is like that though. You know what I mean? Like pilgrimage up to your house. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

You get to go see the wizard, go visit the wizard. He's over there. And, you know, and not that I'm a wizard by any means, but I do like that. Cause I have been that, right? In my life, I've been like, hey, Jerry Lopez, you know, like go to Jerry and Jerry would be there. And he's just ahead of you. He's lived more, done more. And then you go to Jerry and Jerry would be there. And he, he, he's just ahead of you. He's lived more, done more. And then you go to him and try to get some insight. And it's, and it's good for me if I can bestow some, some, some knowledge that I've been, that was bestowed

on me that helped me go along my course. I mean, I think that, like you said, pay it back. And I think that's, I think at the end, I think that is really something that is, that culturally we've lost. And it really goes back to, you know, the wise men that we, you know, that they're supposed to be the wise men. I'm not, I'm definitely not me, not one of the wise men, but they're supposed to be these, these people that you, that you're supposed to look up to them, actually. They're supposed to be elders. We revere them for their elderly knowledge as opposed to dismiss them and put them in a home. Exactly.

Yeah. And maybe that's just because they survived, that maybe that the knowledge is that they just actually made it long enough to live that long. I'm just saying like, that might not be anything tricky. It just might be,

hey, you can't be, it's like Wildman. You're not gonna be around- That guy's 60. Yeah, you're not gonna be around the world for 85 years without getting something. Something's popping up. And even if you can just observe the guy and be like, hmm, the way he does stuff, maybe that's something to- Well, that's Hawaiian too. Hawaiian.

Hawaiian. Right. Hawaiian. Yeah. Which is more tribal, which is more of how we, that the that, that, that the way the structure of culture has been in the past is that you had to have, you wanted to have some elders, like the L whatever the woman elder, man, elder, just elders that, that, that help the youth. And because it, because I think that that's something that we're missing. I think the way we look at elders, we kind of, let's just, like you said, put them over there out of our sight.

Let's not, and not realizing that there's a lot to be learned. And you see people that have admiration for their grandparents and that go there and with their, I mean, those are special people, right? Those are special people usually that have, but also, you know, I always say, because, you know, in Hawaii, we talk a lot about respect, right? It's always about, hey, you got to respect, hey, you didn't respect me. Well, I always say, yeah, but you got to act respectfully. So act respectfully, and then you get respected. So, you know, I think it's important that the elders act respectfully, and then they can be respected. But if the elders are not acting correctly.

Not behaving themselves. Not behaving. No, I'm just saying, and that's part of the issue too that we have culturally, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. If the elders aren't behaving correctly, then it's hard to respect them because you're like, well, you guys aren't even behaving correctly, so we're not gonna. But maybe they're not behaving well because they've been disrespected to, you know, unfairly. Exactly, exactly. And we have lost that. I mean, I'm reminded of Julie, my wife's father,

she grew up in Alaska. He was an engineer. He moved the whole family up there and he was having the most success like in the very late years of his life. Like it got to the point, he's like 89. He could barely see. And he would keep getting hired on these jobs

because the Native American culture respected him. And they're like, we'll come and pick you up. We need you and we want you there. Like he was the wise man, right? And even though he's like, I should be retired. Like he just couldn't quit. And there's something really beautiful about that. How great is that that you're the most needed at the end of your life. You know, we were talking,

cause I was reading some Adlerian thing that I really enjoyed. And, and, and you know, they were talking about that. Sometimes the value is just the presence, that the value is just the presence that just being there is the value. Because people, well, what value do the... And I go, well, listen, at a certain point, if the elderly can't do anything, just their presence, that they're there. Your grandma's there, your grandfather's there, they just, they exist. And that can be enough to be a value, right? Because they're talking about everybody being a value and you're like, well, they're a value, they're there. Yeah, yeah, yeah. All right. I want to know how you live with all

these women. I got two daughters around the same age. Yeah, well, you got two sons? They're older. Okay. They're great. They were easy. Yeah. Girls, a little trickier. Complicated. A little trickier. Complicated. You know, I guess, because I've been going through different stages of it and, you know, I was describing my position as kind of like being a post in the house, like a giant post that holds the roof up. You just have to be there. You don't move. You hold the roof up so the roof doesn't fall down. And that's your position. Everything's going around you, but you're just standing like

that and they need you to be there, stationary like that. But one thing about... I mean, listen, the only thing I know is I don't know anything. I know nothing when it comes to... I'm coming to appreciate that idea. To the girls. Yeah. They're complex. And I think one also too, it's a complex time on top of it. I think it's not, now the social pressures and I think- It's so hard to be a teenage girl. And then it's, because it's 24 seven. It's not just when you go to school at school

or when you go to the playground at the playground. It's not just at these places. It's all day long, every day. And I think that there's a lot of pressure on them. And, you know, I think I, you know, for me, I feel like I try to lead by example. And I'm pretty, I mean, it's all about honesty. Like talking about, you know, I have a conversation with my youngest daughter about makeup. And she's like, okay, I want to get some makeup.

And I go, okay, well, you know why you want to put makeup on, right? And she goes, well, because it makes me feel good. And I go, no, you want to put makeup on to attract males. Like, and she, I go, you want to try to attract a male? And she's like, no, it makes me feel good. I go, well, it makes you feel good because that you think it might help you be attractive. That's part of why you're doing it.

So, and it was interesting. I think it's even more complicated than that because she's on social media and she's seeing other girls her age doing that. And you wanna feel like you're part of that or you can fit in with that. And there's like a self-esteem thing that yes, is about guys,

but it's also about signaling to the tribe and where you fit and all of that. Yeah, yeah. No, but that's the complexity of it, right? Is like, hey, you're doing this to fit in, to do it, to fit in with the girls, your other girls to fit in, to be attractive, because that's like, hey, you're doing this to fit in with the girls, your other girls to fit in to be attractive because that's ultimately whether you're being attractive to the girls to fit in or not. I mean, that's all part of that pressure.

I'm just saying that I just wanted her to understand that there was another motive than just her at the house for herself. It's not just for you. It's for you're doing it for other people. It's not just for you, it's for, you're doing it for other people. Yeah, it's not easy, man. No. I feel like kids either define themselves by trying to model the behavior or the example that you set and like kind of covet approval that way,

or they define themselves in opposition to who you are. Like I'm gonna just contravene everything that you're about to create some distance. And maybe that's an attention thing, I don't know, but I'm dealing with a little bit of that right now, where it's like everything that we're about, not interested. And the idea that you have, like your daughter's gonna come to you

and wanna ask about life advice, like that's not happening. No, no, no, not quite. I'm trying to figure out like what the right thing to do is. Yeah, you set an example, you model the behavior, but you have to have a very loose relationship with the results of that. And you gotta be able to roll with stuff

that like you didn't expect. Well, and I have a feeling that you're not gonna see the fruits of your work until they leave. That a lot of the seeds that you plant and a lot of the things that you do, you won't see. You won't see until they go out of your house

and they have their... Because those seeds, whatever it is that you planted, those are growing, but you can't see them. Right. And the thing that they're gonna turn into is gonna, it's gonna come after, it's gonna come late, it's gonna come, I mean, I can speak for myself personally. Yeah. Like how that later in my life. You have one daughter who's like 25 or something like that, right? Yeah. Older.

Yeah. Yeah. And then I have, and then I have, you know, 17 or something like that, right? Yeah. Older. Yeah. Yeah. And then I have, you know, a 17 and 12. But it's like, I think a lot of those fruits are going to come later on. You're going to see, it's going to be, you know, they're going to, you're going to, you wish you would get to, you know, reap the rewards of it. But there's none of that. Yeah. Right?

There's none of that. There's none of that. There's none of that. That's deferred. Deferred. Who knows how long. Who knows how long. You just hope that they come's none of that. There's none of that. That's deferred. Who knows how long? Who knows how long? You just hope that it comes out.

But, you know, I see it happen, you know, where the girls will go. Well, you know, one of my daughters will go be with a family and then they come back and the family will be like, oh, she's so amazing, so helpful, so great. And I'm like, I'm like. I know. Was that hard? We're talking about the same person. Yeah. I know. My daughters hate the beach, you know, like, oh, the beach, I hate the beach, hate surfing, hate surfing, hate the beach, hate working out. You're eating that.

God set it up that way. Crazy. I have a couple. So that they can be your teachers. Yeah. I have a couple, I have, Gabby doesn't like it when I say that, but I'm like, yeah. I said, your children were sent here to wear you out. And so you can die and they can take over. And then she's like, oh yeah, that's just not right. And then my other thing is I said, parenting is like building a samurai sword.

You take the steel, you heat it up, you beat it with a hammer and you stick it in a bucket of ice. And you just do that over and over. And eventually it's the hardest steel in the world. I said, parenting, a parent, you take, the kids take you, they heat you up. They beat you with a hammer and they stick you in ice and they do it over. And then you're tempered. Like when you're done parenting, you're going to be like, you're going to be tempered. Either that or you're done.

Oh, you break. Break you in half and you're done. Throw you back in the furnace. Right. So you've been, you and Gabby have been together for over 20 years. Yeah, we're going 25. We're coming up on 25. And you've kind of modeled this relationship

in a public facing way, which is interesting. Like the way that the dynamic that you guys have figured out for yourself, I think is super inspiring in that. And, you know, my wife and I are, you know, we strive to do this ourselves is that, you know, you're both very independent people. You're not defining yourselves, you know, by, you know, what the other person, you're not relying upon each other to define who you are, right? There's a respect, you come together.

When you come together, it's quality, but you both have your kind of independent worlds and you provide the space for you guys to have those experiences. And they're not loaded in the way that a lot of relationships are, where it's like, yeah, I want you to be that guy who goes out and serves big waves, but only on my terms, right?

And that's hard to get to that place. Yeah. Yeah. You know, I think both Gabby and I, probably our childhoods, the relationships that we saw around us growing up or the lack of, you know, one of the two, I think that, that had a big influence on us. I, you know, I, I, I know that, you know, we talk about, you know, each of us are responsible for our own happiness, you know, that, that, that I'll go get happy, you go get happy. And then when you're happy and I'm happy, you come back and we'll both be happy together kind of thing. Like not, not putting the pressure of, you know, I'm fortunate that she has, you know, and I guess she could say she's fortunate that I'm completely, you know, a fan of Gabby's and in her corner and support her in things that at times probably I wasn't exactly stoked about, but, but it was more important that it was more important for me to, to, to be supportive of her than it was for me to

evoke my, my opinion or my feelings about it. I think that was a big piece of it that I would always, and she's amazing, uh, that she doesn't ever put the of my passion or my draw as something against her. It's not taking away from her as something like, oh, you did, but it's taking away from her. And so, you know, the combination, but we, you know, it's funny because we were, you know, we've talked about this before in the past that it's like her and I, I think we have enough. We're scared enough of each other that we're like, it's a cold war. You know, it's a cold, we have a cold war. We're just, we know that we both have nukes. We both could drop them.

Right. It won't be good. You could die from the fallout. You should be assured destruction. It's sheer destruction for everybody, no matter who fires, let's not fire and keep that. And so I think that's been, you know, and we've had our, we've had our, you know, we've had our ups and downs, like every relationship and every effort. And I think, I mean, every, it takes effort in the relationship to, to,

to make it, but, but, you know, they, they did a study with 10,000 couples and they said that the only thing that was consistent amongst all successful couples, no matter what the dynamics were, was that the man respected the woman. And so for me, that was, you know, I have a ton of respect for Gabby as a person and, and, and then, and then as a woman and then as a mom and as a, you know, just all of her as a person. And so, and I also had a great relationship with my mother and I have a lot of respect for my mom. My mom was a hardworking lady and, you know, raised some children and some men too. And so I, you know, I have that, I think that, and I can, I don't think any, just that any, just any guy could be with Gabby.

I mean, men have a hard time sometimes with women that are strong because they just, they're insecure. She's pretty alpha. I would think that she checks the alpha box, you know, in many a category in your relationship. Yeah, which is great. And you're more, you can be more of the teddy bear affectionate guy, mystical. Yeah, well, you call me in when it's, when you need some real dirty work done, you know?

You know what I mean? When the toilet breaks, you call me. Yeah, I get it. Or when there's a bear outside or, you know, like. Right. But she's a, I mean, she's a force of energy. Yeah. When she walks into a room, you gotta reckon with that.

That's true. You know what I mean? Yeah. Well, it's great. I think, I don't think I would be able to respect her if she wasn't. I don't think, I think that if she- No, it's her power. Yeah.

If she didn't have that, I would be, it would, I mean, I would respect her, but it wouldn't be the same like I do. Yeah. I wanna talk about Laird Superfoods. Okay. So you, like, you guys just took this company public, right? We did. I saw pictures of you like ringing the bell

at the stock exchange. It's just like a fish out of water thing. Hard to believe. I know, it's wild. Hard to believe. I actually got to ring the bell for Wildman when Bally's went. Oh, wow.

But so I was able to, but I had nothing to do with it. This is a whole different thing. This has got my name on it. Right. And the fact that we were in a position that the business has been, you know, built like it has been and run like it has been is the only reason why we were able to go public. So that was a, and that was an education. So I was in go public school.

It's no small thing. Yeah. Well, just the whole process is amazingly elaborate, complicated. Like it's a complicated – I wonder how as many companies do, like given all there is to do and the details. And, I mean, we're fortunate enough to have great people that that was, you know, that was taken care of. I think it, I mean, obviously it suits you perfectly because it's so part and parcel of your ethos.

It's really just a manifestation of you and your lifestyle. It's the irony, that's the irony. I'm just saying that's the irony. Well, it's that weird thing. Like, you know, you mature into something that you're not, right? Like the idea that you're in New York City at all. I know you spent a year there when you were a kid, but like that's oil and water.

Yeah. But when I look back over the course of your career, like you're somebody who's done lots of deals and had licensing and you've had this product and that product and some of them work, some of them didn't work. And I've always looked at it at an arm's length from a distance and not really knowing anything,

thinking like he just needs to get with the right partners because this guy's got so much to offer and maybe he's not partnering with the right people. So I look at Laird Superfood, clearly he's with the right people and this is working. And it's like, to me, it feels like long overdue that you should have had a win like this like a long time ago.

I appreciate that. You know, again, it's all about timing. I think the timing of it, I think it's, you know, I mean, it's like anything, I might not have been in the position to appreciate it like I am now, you know, if it was earlier or, and maybe it just, it wouldn't have, wouldn't be what it is if it, if it hadn't. So I think that's a big piece of it. It's like the timing of it. I, if I, if I had to say, Hey, when, you know,

you get to choose whenever it was going to happen, I, the way it's happened in the, in, in, and, and the truth is, you know, Gabby and I talked about this before, you know, we've been very cautious about who we align ourselves with throughout our careers and just about what brands and is it reflective of our brand and all those kind of things. And the truth is that we had to, you know, ultimately build a brand that was reflective of our brand. Right. That was, I mean, that's, and that we were able but, but that's the truth. The truth is, is that. You want to do it right. You want to do it yourself. So I think that's a big piece of it. And again, I always look at ideas like all ideas and superfood is one of them. Because we're all so caught up in – it's always about monetary, right?

How much is this and how much is that and all that stuff. But I always think that it's about ideas, right? And so if you think about how big is an idea, right? Well, let's just think, how big is the idea of Facebook? Pretty big idea. It was just an idea. What was the idea? Well, I'm going to connect people and the thing, and then you got Facebook, right? So how big is any of these, how big is, you know, how big an idea is the Apple phone or how big of the idea is, you know, stand up paddling in my little world or how big an idea is the Apple phone? Or how big of the idea is stand-up paddling in my little world? Or how big an idea is whatever the idea is?

And the other stuff comes later, but the idea itself, what is that? What is the nucleus of the idea? And I think that determines the potential, right? So with this, the idea is how do I get people eating better? How do I get people eating healthy? How do I get people excited about eating healthy? Please, how do I get stuff in people's diet that aren't? Like people out there that aren't eating well, like that don't even have an opportunity to even understand what eating well is. You've never heard of turmeric, which by the way, you brought me this fresh turmeric

from Kauai. Ever, you know what I mean? I'm just saying like, they don't have any idea or the resources or the availability or all those things. So I think that's, so it's really about that idea. And I think, you know, it's in our nature, especially Hawaii, where Aloha is really about helping, about sharing, like it's a sharing culture.

I mean, we have other things about it, but one of the things that I was gifted when I was a kid was that I was shared with, you know, that there was a lot of Aloha, that Aloha is sharing. And Ohana. Yeah, and Ohana, exactly. So, but I think how, you know, I think it's about ideas at the end end that all of this stuff is about ideas.

And then what, you know, and then seeing how big the idea is, what's the potential of an idea of an idea. It's like, I mean, everything we have going on right now, every company that you see, I mean, our country, all just everything. Everything's about ideas and the potential of what they can be. And, and, and then, you know, trying to maximize that, how big, how, you know, it's like the idea of Toe and now you have Nazare. It's like things just appear to reflect a concept. So, but-

Yeah, it's a trap, man. So in this case though, you're not going into an office and managing people, right? Well, that's not my skill set. That's not your thing, right? That's, I have a- You're formulating. I have a partner who does that very well.

So that's his gift that we have. And we're attracting, we attract good people. Like we just, it's the, you know how that is. I have a thing I used to tell Gabby, a thing called a honey line, which is, you know, when you see a bee, you follow the bee and then another bee. And then pretty soon you're at the hive and that's where the honey is. It's like, so good people attract good people. So we have, you know, we're attracting really good people.

You know, the majority of what I'm involved in is just, of course, always products. Like what we're, and then marketing, because it's what we've done. Gabby and I have been marketing for our careers. We had to be self-marketing because our platforms were so tiny. You know, we talk about the size of our platforms have been so, you know, volleyball and surfing. I mean, those are little platforms. And so you got to be pretty creative to survive in those, you know, it's not like, you know, NBA or NFL where you just- No, it's different. But you both transcend those subcultures. Like you're, you know, you can both go by your first name, people know who you are and you stand for an idea that's much

larger than your sport. Yeah. And we've been fortunate to be able to do that too, right? So there's, it's a combination that, you know, and I, I, I tell young athletes all the time, I go, Hey, listen, if you, if you, it's important for you to know how to talk. It's important for you to know how to, to behave in public in a way it'll bring you a lot more opportunities because you can be great, a great athlete, but if you can't talk and you don't know how to act, you're going to have a limited potential. Sure. And you can actually be not as good and be well-spoken and know how to conduct yourself, and you'll have a pretty good, you know, you'll have a better opportunity to actually, you know, make a living from it. I think young athletes intuitively understand that

because it's all about social media and developing this platform, right? Like it's not just, oh, I'm on this team. Like they understand they have to take responsibility for their career trajectory and they can be riding the bench and become the most popular or important player because they've figured out how to get people to care

about what they have to say. Well, but they're also seeing the chain wrecks too. They're also seeing the train wrecks too. So they're seeing the both. They're seeing the instantaneous failure of greatness, and then they're seeing the success of subpar, right? So you're seeing both. So they're getting a pretty good spectrum of what not doing it right or what doing it right looks like. So they're, you know, because we're at the end, we always talk about monkey see, monkey do, right?

We're the, that's what humans are. We, when you see it, it's hard to be the monkey that doesn't see and does. That's the, that's always the trick. But inevitably, you know, there's, what do we say? There's nothing new, just a new application of an old idea. So to think you're the first person to ever think of something or do something is I always find that pretty arrogant. Cause it's like, no, that's not honest. Honest is there's, it's probably a combination of, you know, something or some other thing that's been done in some way. And then you're

just making a hybrid and combining it and building from it. On that note, you being the wizard and all these people making this pilgrimage to your house for the pool workout, there's an aspect of it. I mean, there's some interesting cats that roll through that, right? And I would suspect that

that's its own Manhattan project, right? Like you have a lot of really compelling people doing interesting things in the world that you're spending quality time with. Pretty amazing. I would suspect you've learned quite a bit from this cast of characters, right? Like what does that look like for you?

Pretty amazing. Yeah. Pretty amazing. You know, sometimes Gabby just, you know, shakes her head, whether it's, you know, I mean, we, you know, I'm reading something or some book or something, and then this next week, Hey, so-and-so wants to bring such and such the guy that wrote that book or, you know, this. So we get a lot of that, you know, we get a lot of that,

a lot of that, but, you know, I, I feel like again, the honey line, or even in nature, when you're observant, then you get to observe more. It's, I think when you're interested in, in these subjects and you're, you're interested in health and wellness and you're interested in, in fitness and you're interested in longevity and you're interested in performance and you're interested in morality and whatever you're, I mean, you're just interested in these things and you're, and you're, and you're meeting people that are interested in them. There's David Sinclair showing up today. And then they know somebody that knows somebody and then you have those guys. So we get, you know, the truth is we get a really amazing array and diverse from generals to, you know, to to to perform as people to doctors you know we're i mean we get mathematician i mean we just get it's like the the spectrum because what you realize is that

that it doesn't you know i always tell i always say that people i go listen being a server is like being alcoholic everybody's. It's just whether you drink or not. Everybody's a surfer. It's just whether you surf or not. So what I'm saying is that everybody, there's somebody in every field that's into health and wellness and learning and creativity, right? And no matter what field. They can be a lawyer, the you know politics whatever they but they're so that's your what you have in common and so once you start meeting those people

and then you got your you know you got your friend rick rubin and he's he knows 30 he's like hey you want to meet this professor of so-and-so right i'm like sure now i go down to his house i meet the guy and then the guy goes oh yeah i have another guy and he said and then before you know you're like all of a sudden you you know i mean the world's tiny when you don't know anybody when you know people it's it's like you're it's it's it's your it's the next door it's the next room it's like it's even smaller so when you don't know anybody it's small when you know people it just becomes especially like-minded people right so when you have all these you know when you have all these smart people that that are are interested because what you realize the common denominator in all those that group learning they're all want to learn they're

all interested because all the smart people are learned are people that learn that's what they do that's why they're smart because they're always learning and like hey what's this what's that oh you're doing that oh yeah okay what you know and you just see that and that seems to be the common thread, right? It's like you never want absolutes and you don't want anybody that thinks they know. As soon as the guy says, oh, I know, you're like- Right. Yeah. That's not the guy.

I'm sure you've had the guy who shows up who's full of vim and vigor and thinks he's going to- I give those to Gabby. He's going to answer dick measuring contest. I give those to Gabby. Gabby takes them in the deep end. She takes them in the deep end. And, you know, we, first we give, we, first, you know,

Gabby, a girl, a woman, takes him over. So then they think, oh yeah, I'll have a real fighting cast. Not realizing that, you know, she was raised by dolphins. And so it's over. So, but yeah, you know, we, I mean, I always, I think it's like a mirror, you know, it's like a mirror. If the guy comes with, with, you know, a little edge, you just give him an edge. Right. He's going to get what he came for. For sure.

We won't let, we won't let you down. Cool, man. Well, I want to be respectful of your time and, and, and let you go here. But maybe before we do that, given your unique skill set and life experiences and adventures and everything that you've, you know, experienced your whole life, you have a unique lens on the world. Like when you look at how most people live their lives, it's very different from how you live your life. And, you know, being conscious of the fact that most people don't have the luxury of being involved in the kind of things that you are, what do you, like, what's the advice? Like if you could just reach your hand out to the average Joe who's, you know, doing the normal thing of, you know, working the job and paying the bills and raising the two kids. Like, what is it that you want that person to understand about life that perhaps they're myopic to or can't see?

Well, that's a very tough thing. I have a friend call me the other day and obviously the time that we're in is a heavy time right now. And some people it's real hard on and some people it's not as hard on, but it's a real kind of time of uncertainty, right? Which they always are, but this one is overtly uncertain, right? This is very overtly uncertain and uh he said you know uh you know what what you know what he just asked for some advice and i'm like i'm not in a position to give advice but but i but i said you know i did say you know be honest work hard and try to have fun. Like, you know, like, but, but there's,

I think there's something about remembering that there's still these foundation things about, you know, it's important to be honest. You just gotta be honest. We have to be honest, honest, honest. I think honesty in relationships and friendships and work in, in life. I think there's, you know, in, and just all the things I think that that's, and I, and work hard. I think we got the, I think there's no way to, I wish there was a way to, to, to, you know, I mean, to work hard, you know, I always, Wildman and I used to laugh because he was

retired since he was 50. And, and, but if the amount of work he did every day compared to people that work, you couldn't even begin. And then also you got to have empathy for the people that, you know, that everybody's got a burden, right? So everybody has a burden. And I think we have to be conscious that we've got to, you know, lately I've been trying to operate more with more tolerance and more kind of, you know, just a more, more, just

be aware that, that there's people are under a big thing, but we, and you got to go and you got to figure out how to have fun. You got to have fun. If we don't have fun, it's not worth it. Like I said, I used to say go surfing, but I meant like just do something that brings you some sort of enjoyment. Your version of surfing. Yeah. Whatever that looks like. Yeah, it's there.

Everybody has their thing. everybody has their their their thing and i think it you know i think too is you know when we're if we just can focus on the you know it's kind of like i mean you know this better than anybody you know how when it's far what are you doing you're just looking at the next step you're just keeping your eye you're not looking at the distance and going man that that mountain's far away you just look down and you just keep keep keep your feet going and before you know it, you're like, wow, I'm at the mountain now. But if you're looking, and I think that's a big piece of it. I think right now, I mean, it's enough to try to just live sufficiently today. It's enough effort

to just work today, do what you need to do today, take care of your family, people you love today, just keep your head down and that. And I think that a lot of the stuff that, I think less of the stuff will bother you. And then a lot of the stuff will be behind. They will go behind. It's hard though, when the pressure's on and you're putting that one foot in front of the other

to feel like you can indulge yourself with play or having fun. I know that. And that's why there's a balance aspect to it. I think that that's where you're looking. That's the balance of it, right? Because all that drift, all that stuff, you know, and I don't, I mean, that's why people are, you know, going to bars is because they're trying to get that release, but you just have to figure out a way to get that release that's productive, not destructive. And so if you can just, because that's the balance, the equilibrium, because if all work and no play makes Johnny a dull boy,

it's just not going to, you just can't, you have to figure out what that is, whatever that, you know, I mean, some people can be as simple as just going to a movie. So they just get to leave there somewhere, you know, you do meditate, do some breath work. I mean, you'd go for a swim, go for a bike, go for a thing, go for a hike, go on the sauna and, you know, boil your brains, go on the ice tub and freeze yourself. Something, something, something, just something to create some sort of- Just shock you out of the routine a little bit. Yeah, yeah.

Just to create a little bit of tilt on the other side, because all these other stresses are just gonna, they're just pulling us they're just pulling us down, you know? Yeah, yeah, I get that. All right, last thing. What's the wave that still remains unsurfed? Like the metaphorical wave, like what's still out there that you're thinking about right now?

And you're laying brick by brick that maybe we're not gonna see it for five years, but it's on the brain. Well, I definitely have a project to go out into some sort of, you know, stuff you see on, you know, National Geographic when the ship's going into the big, you know, whether it's down in the Roaring Forties or up in the North Atlantic or out in the Aleutians, but some project to go out into the big ocean and ride the big ocean out at sea. So that's something that's in my head and I'm working towards. Has anybody ever done that? No.

No, I don't. I probably, they probably shouldn't want to. Yeah. Just out in the North Atlantic in the middle of the ocean. Yeah, well, I mean, you need the infrastructure. You know, you're not gonna just go out there by yourself. You're gonna need the right people and the right pieces. But that's something that I've been thinking about

that I'd like to try to at least do that. That's pretty cool. Well, it's just there. It's something there to be done. That'll be, I have a feeling it'll be something special when that happens. Yeah, it's epic, man. All right, you're at and on the socials, right?

Layered Superfoods. Talk to the smart people. Yeah, are you guys in Whole Foods? Yeah. You are, right? Yeah. Nationwide? Yep. That stuff? Yeah, world. It's good. I appreciate that it's all plant-based.

Yeah. It's good stuff. Yeah. Non-GMO. Yeah. Just the pure Yeah. World. It's good. I appreciate that it's all plant-based. Yeah. It's good stuff. Yeah. Non-GMO. Yeah. Just the purest. Simple. Right. You got to love it when you just see only- Coffee creamers.

Four or five ingredients. You got to love that. Yeah. I've got a beautiful- Superfood protein right now that I'm enjoying. Protein powder. We have a protein powder. Yeah. Yeah. I'm enjoying it. Okay. Good. You guys sent me a bunch of stuff. Okay. Perfect.

I'm digging it. Yeah. See, I don't know anything. I'm like, I'm on the- You're on a need-to-know basis. Yeah. I'm on a. See, I don't know anything. I'm like, I'm on the- You're on a need to know basis. Yeah, I'm on a need to know basis, exactly. They don't wanna- Hey, Laird, we need you to go ring the bell. Yeah, exactly.

Get in here and ring the bell. They call me, listen, I'm like the, I do well like in disaster type stuff, like call it the flood, call them in, the fire, call the fire, you know, they call me in for the the call me in for the the you know the big stuff right otherwise you'll be you'll be found otherwise you'll be preparing to be able to be ready so that i get when i get called in i can do it there's always that you know it's like the fire department you know it's gonna happen but you just gotta right you gotta train all the time with the idea that there's not happening right now but it could

any second maybe tomorrow next week or next year. Cool. All right, man. Thank you. All right. Come back and talk to me again sometime. I look forward to it. Peace.

I'd say that was fairly epic. You know, epic is a word that is horribly overused in my opinion, but I think in this case, I think it's appropriate. That was truly epic. Be sure to give Laird a follow on the socials, at LairdHamiltonSurf on Instagram

and at LairdLife on Twitter. Check out his New York Times bestseller, "'Force of Nature," and you can find all his plant-based nutritional awesomeness at LairdSuperfood.com. I'm enjoying his matcha at the moment, also his Renew plant-based protein. This is not a sponsored thing. I'm just really matcha at the moment. Also his Renew plant-based protein. This is not a sponsored thing.

I'm just really digging those products. Reminder that my new book, "'Voicing Change' is now shipping globally. I'll even sign it and it's available only at richroll.com slash VC. And if you're looking to dial up your plate, the Plant Power Meal Planner is where it's at. Thousands of customized plant-based recipes

at your fingertips with access to nutrition coaches, seven days a week, all integrated with grocery delivery. Right now, we're running a special deal, $20 off gift cards when you go to meals.richroll.com now through December 25th. If you'd like to support our work here on the show, subscribe, rate, and comment on it on Apple Podcasts, on Spotify, and on YouTube. Share the show or your favorite episodes with friends or on social media, and you can support us on Patreon at richroll.com slash donate. Today's show was produced and engineered by Jason Camiolo.

The video edition of the show was created by Blake Curtis. Graphics by Jessica Miranda. Portraits by Allie Rogers, sponsored relationships are managed by DK David Kahn and theme music as always by my boys, Tyler Trapper and Hari. Appreciate the love you guys. See you back here shortly, soon, a couple of days.

Until then, get outside, engage with nature, get outside your comfort zone, love the people in your environment and be well. Peace, plants, namaste. Thank you.