The Rich Roll Podcast - Lee Sung Jin On The Spirituality Of Netflix’s ‘Beef’

Episode Date: August 17, 2026

Lee Sung Jin is the Emmy-winning writer, director, and showrunner of Beef, and is now co-writing Marvel's X-Men. We discuss his backstory, the Jungian shadow work underneath the show, the specificity with which he constructs these characters and the universality piece that comes out of it, the worst year of his life and the scene it produced, and the name he spent twenty-five years under. The overarching message is that change, evolution, growth are possible and always within our grasp. We just get in our own way. Lee is operating at an entirely different level. Enjoy! Show notes + MORE Watch on YouTube Newsletter Sign-Up Today’s Sponsors: LMNT: Get a free 8-count Sample Pack with any purchase👉🏼https://www.drinkLMNT.com/RICHROLL  iRestore: Save on customer favorites with code RICHROLL👉🏼https://www.irestore.com/RICHROLL  BetterHelp: Get 10% OFF the first month👉🏼https://www.betterhelp.com/richroll  Rivian: Electric vehicles that keep the world adventurous forever👉🏼https://stories.rivian.com/richroll  Check out all of the amazing discounts from our Sponsors👉🏼https://www.richroll.com/sponsors Check out all of the amazing discounts from our Sponsors👉🏼https://www.richroll.com/sponsors  Find out more about Voicing Change Media at https://www.voicingchange.media and follow us @voicingchange Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Letting go is actually the thing. Yeah. But we keep forgetting. Lee Sung-Jin. Lee Sung-jin, the creator of the hit Netflix show Beef. He has other television products in development with A-24 FX and Lionscape. You've expanded your aperture and you're tackling much deeper existential questions about what it is to be human. Danny says in season one, you know, rock bottom can be your trampoline, which was, you know, just ripped from the headlines of my life.

And I just started re-examining everything. like just intentionality, like what's my intention as a friend, as a son, you know, as a writer. I'm actually sort of glad everything happened the way it did because, you know, what a privilege it is to get to take pain and then, you know, make art out of it. What would the 12-year-old version of you think if he knew that one day he was going to be writing X-Men and getting Emmy nominations? It's not as if like from day one you were thinking you were going to be. going to be a writer and a filmmaker.

No. This is not really the trajectory. It certainly was not. I mean, when I was 12, I was just studying for the PSATs, you know. I was fairly playing violin, you know, hours and hours every day. That's why my neck leans this way. I'm constantly I have to correct it that way. Yeah, I had no idea that this was in store.

I do feel very, very blessed. What stays the same, though, is like, You know, at 12, I was also thinking very similar existential questions, and those questions are still here. Haven't really been answered. And so it's like, yes, like, I don't think 12-year-old me would expect the hamster wheel that I'm on to look the way it does. But then I think 12-year-old me would be like, oh, you're still, still don't have the answers, huh? What do your folks think about what you're doing? They're very, very proud now.

I think in the beginning they're very confused. When I graduated for the University of Pennsylvania with an economics degree, I was supposed to be an investment banker, and I just said, sorry, I'm moving to New York with no plan. And they were rightfully concerned. And I was a mess in my 20s. I was just like a tumbleweed, just kind of being blown around. And back then there was a lot of concern and worry.

Now, like, so, so proud. You know, but still my parents, like my dad watched season two and texted me, hey, good job, but that final scene was too long. You should have... He's giving you notes. Yeah, it was like, this shot should have been this much shorter, and then you should have cut to this and then this. And then it would have been great.

Now he's an editor. Yeah. I was like, well, the day. That it's like, shows on the platform. It's aired, so I can't, like, remove it and apply those changes. But, you know, so they're still my parents, but they are extremely, extremely proud, yeah. True or false, your dad designed the first supercomputer? For Samsung, yes.

For Samsung. Yeah. He was a professor for most of, I know, our lives. And there was a brief period where we moved back to Korea. from my elementary school because he had gotten a job at Samsung and he was tasked with designing the first supercomputer

and he gave up that job to move us all back to the United States because of how bad this public school system was back then where they hadn't reformed the school system so the teachers would beat you every single day

like actual beat. There was one teacher who made you to push up and while you're doing push-ups would punch you in the face. And you would stay after hours and hold a chair above your head. And if your elbows went down, they'd come with a metal ruler and just slap your wrist really hard. You'd have to straighten out. So that was every single day from third, fourth, fifth grade. And I was coming home with like bruises and just, and so my parents decided to let this Samsung

path wasn't worth it and they would move us back to the United States, which I'm very, very thankful for. Obviously, Korea has since greatly reformed their education system to the other extreme where teachers are committing suicide now because the students bullied them so hard, so overcorrected there. But, you know, my dad likes to lament that all the heads of Samsung were people that were under him when he was there. And what could have been? Yeah. Well, yeah, I mean, two insights. First, the fact that your dad would make that sacrifice for his family, for you and your sibling, your one sister, when he was in such a prestigious situation, you know, speaks to his character and what he values as important. And secondarily,

for you to then go your own way, like you're on this track. Like, I'm sure it was heavy to have a dad who was that accomplished. And I don't know what the environment was like in your home. But, you know, you strike me as a striver. I mean, you got into Penn. And it's not unusual that you would be considering investment banking and all of that. But to say, no, I'm not going to do that. Takes a degree of self-confidence and self-knowledge, you know, to believe in yourself,

to think, like, I'm going to step off this path. I've been given, you know, the privilege to attend this university. And I can see how my life is going to play out if I go this traditional route and I'm going to take the, you know, the road less traveled. I think in hindsight it can look like that, but in the moment it certainly didn't feel like it. You know, it was weird. Like, I was never making those decisions out of self-confidence. It felt very, like, insecure and sad in the moment.

You know, I was just, I just remember, like, being in college and just feeling such heavy melancholy because this was not, I didn't feel like. myself, you know? And I think this whole journey for me has been like, I think also part of it is being a Korean-American immigrant. I was born in Korea, moved over here, moved back and forth. And there's just, you really become from minute one accustomed to looking around copying and mimicking and never really feeling like yourself. And that that becomes the norm. And, in college, as I'm about to do investment banking, I'm starting to feel like, this isn't me.

And so I was just kind of chasing this like sadness that was also the driving force, which in hindsight feels very confident. But in the moment, it was just like stumbling. I had no idea what direction I was going. I just knew that I didn't feel good. And I think even as I found writing, the same thing happened where the early part of my career,

I was just mimicking what was in. my first job was on Always Sunny in Philadelphia in 2008. And at the time, like comedy was so in, like hard comedy, like very UCB, like, you know, a joke every piece of dialogue. And so I would try to mimic that. And I ended up on a network multi-camp for three seasons that just completely destroyed my mental health. Because I was, it just felt like I'm here and the person walking around, around in life is over here and it's just getting stretched more and more and more.

And I could tell the rubber band was going to snap, but I just didn't know when. And then I think in December 13th, 2013 is when it like snap snapped. And that was like my like, you know, big brush with, you know, suicide and ended up in the hospital. And and, but, you know, like Danny says in season one, you know, rock bottom can be your trampoline and he says it sort of jokingly but uh or we wrote it jokingly he's saying it seriously but uh it is very true like that i'm so glad it finally snapped i feel very grateful that it i am still here but um that really became uh a needed clean slate of okay like if i'm going to

participate in this reality then like why am i here and i just started reexamining everything like just intentionality like you were saying how we started this conversation. So what's my intention as a friend, as a son, you know, as a writer? And I started therapy, started really looking into, you know, self-help. And yeah, it all started from that moment. It really is the hero's journey of Lysang Jin. I mean, you were living progress. progressively more and more out of alignment with your true self, adorning this mask, trying to fit in and figure out your way and how you could operate in this world that you were attracted to, but not confident or integrated enough to actually express your authentic self. Like thinking the only way to survive is to kind of costume myself, like all these other people around me. but do that long enough and you're going to you're going to reach a crisis point and in your case

this bottom really is this incredible lever for for transformation and growth and this is something I think about a lot too like these painful moments like you don't wish them on anybody but they really it's like the universe the seas part or the universe puts you in a place and you suddenly have a degree of willingness to make these changes and do the scary thing and as a result of doing that and clearly you've done a lot, like it's reflected in, you know, in your work. It's like, you couldn't write what you wrote without like being this deeply introspective person who's gone through hard times and come out the other side and has a understanding of what it feels like to live outside of your own body and your own life. And what it means to

like come home. We're all just trying to come home to ourselves. Right. And when you do, it's like lightning strikes and this beautiful work of art emerges from this that's a reflection of the journey that you went on to be the kind of person who could carry that resonance in that message. Thank you very much. I try to remind myself of what you just said often because sometimes it gets easy to like lament like the negative things that have happened, you know, but then like you're saying, I'm like, oh, wait, like I'm actually sort of glad everything happened. the way it did because you know what a privilege it is to get to take pain and then you know make art out of it but then it does get sad too because like you know i have a 16-month-old daughter

and i look at her and she's so perfect and her personality and essence is just there intact from minute one and then i'm like oh my gosh like i want to all i want to do in life is to do everything my power to protect that essence. So it never gets chipped away at so that she never has to feel like I did. And I so want to protect that. And then then like in therapy, you get angry because then you're like, my instinct is so strong to protect that. Like how did so many people not, you know, and for me. But then like you're saying, like that I just have to shift my prism of which I'm looking at that, which is, okay, that's great that I feel that for my daughter. But then for me, for whatever reason, everything happened in a certain sequence. It's allowed me to do what I do.

And that's my path. And, you know, trying to find acceptance and gratefulness for it. But yeah, it's tough. It does ebb and flow between those two points on a daily basis. Yeah, these people who created challenges for you are actually your teachers. You know, they were giving you the lessons you needed to learn in order to become the person you are today. And on some level, you could choose to see it through the lens of you having chosen this experience in this lifetime of the kind of difficulties that you had to go through so that you could transcend, become the person that you've become more fully embodied, more self-examined. So that you can parent your child and spare them whatever generational trauma you inherited. And you get to interrupt that pattern. I hope so.

Yeah. I mean, that's the whole game. Yeah. I think. Yeah, 100%. It has been, I mean, one of the most rewarding parts of being a parent has been that feeling of, oh, wait, like, we're breaking a cycle here. That's really, really cool.

you know um and uh yeah i i and maybe that is why like life is the way it is where it's just designed to continually rebirth and we you know like uh we certainly aren't going to figure it out in our one lifetime yeah the key for you is making sure the pendulum doesn't swing too far in the other direction and then she inherits all kinds of other issues out of your neuroses oh totally not wanting to be you your parent. Oh, totally. I'm like.

And it's inevitable. It's also like in the somsar of it all. Like it's rigged. Like it doesn't matter how good your intentions are, what you do. Like there will be some reason why she's going to go to a therapist in 20 years and complain about how this didn't happen right or that was wrong. And you made the mistake that, you know, harmed her. Yeah. It almost feels like I'm curious what you think having spoken to so many people with different opinions.

at the end of the day, do you think that we actually have free will? Well, the neuroscientists will tell you that we don't. I think it's very difficult for our small brains to accept that there's a good chance that we don't have free will. Like, it's just an intolerable concept. Yeah, great. That makes life very difficult. But the scientific studies seem to say that this is the case. And I try not to think about that too much.

Or maybe I think that, like if you think of it in the broadest context, I heard you tell a story like I think somebody was asking you about death or identity. And you told the story of this octopus that had its arm severed off. And, you know, the octopus's limbs each having many brains. Yeah. And that limb just goes off and is having its experience. I'm not realizing that there's a larger brain that it was attached to.

And I think consciousness operates the same way. I think that we have this sense of individuation, but in truth, I think consciousness, I'm becoming increasingly convinced is fundamental to the universe. And we're like these kind of extruded biological forms that are like inhabiting a means to have an experience for a short period of time

before being absorbed into the oneness of consciousness. And so if you think of free will or the lack of free will in that context, it doesn't really seem as relevant. Yeah, it almost doesn't matter. Yeah.

Yeah. Because technically that arm doesn't have free will but then it does. Yeah. So it's a Zen Cohen. Like we have to live as if we have free will

even if we don't. Yeah. It doesn't matter. Yeah, that's right. We still have to behave accordingly, I guess. Yeah. Do you have a theory on why beef touched this cultural nerve and why it's become so successful and popular?

You know, I think one, something that I'm realizing as I get older is like the more specific you can get about, you know, your experience or the experience of those people around you. Oddly, the more specific you get, the more universal it seems to travel. and I think largely because we're sort of the same thing experiencing itself. So then like, you know, you're sitting at home and you hear a thought that you only thought you've had yourself. You're like, wait, that's me. So I think a little bit of it is that. And then I think with beef, we specifically call it Youngie and Shadowwork amongst ourselves. And my collaborators and I, I think for whatever reason, there are not a lot of avenues.

culturally to do like youngian shadow work at large. And so maybe that's also part of it. But but I'm not sure, to be honest. The Youngian stuff is central. Like that just leaps off the screen for me because I spent a lot of not thinking about that. And, you know, I was reflecting on like, why is this like show so resonant? It's as if you're like a forensic pathologist performing an autopsy on culture, identity, ethnicity, capitalism, you know, the generational divide and the specificity with which you kind of construct these characters and their identities with respect to their, you know, cultural heritage or their socioeconomic status or their generational status is so specific. And it's like, oh, I know that person, you know, and that's the universality piece

to it. Thank you so much. Yeah, we can we can just feel that. And it draws us in and we feel connected. Yeah, I think, you know, beef out of all the things I've ever worked on, it's so borne out of collaboration. And, I mean, just hours and hours of conversations with the actors. Like, you know, I think my first Zoom with Oscar Isaac was, I think, like three and a half hours long. And we just went there. Like, you know, it was very deep and vulnerable. And I think all those conversations. kind of are the textures that you can put on top of the story math, so to speak.

Like, as writers, we can, like, craft, like, the right narrative core progression. But in terms of the textures you put on it, that has to feel real. And there's, that's why so many of the textures, I don't try to imagine myself or the writers do. Like, we have honest conversations with our collaborators. And that's really the gold. the degree of intentionality is off the charts. Like I was listening to an interview with you and you were talking about shot composition and the dirty and clean way that you approach like where is the camera landing in the sequence

of how this kind of emotional arc is playing out. Like why are you putting it on this person and what else is in the frame? And the level of consideration that goes into that is just like I think beyond what the average person would ever imagine, but it's operating on the unconscious level. Oh, thank you. Yeah, we definitely have a lot of talk about intention, because I think that's really the key. I've always said that, like, you know, I think, I think us as humans, we think we're really good at hiding our intention, but it's like pretty bald. Yeah. And so when it comes to filmmaking, I think it's really important to have an intention,

or else the audience is going to feel the lack of or the muddiness of it if you're not crystal clear. Something unlocked for me years ago in my writing, when I realized that music and storytelling are really the same. And it was this article that I have read where some university had fed its machine learning algorithm, like hundreds of pieces of classic literature,

And AI discovered that we only tell stories in six or seven ways. And it's like shapes, like rise, rise, fall, rise, fall. And then I was like, wait, that is the same thing that Vonnegut used to talk about and his man in the whole graph, which is essentially a rise, man in the whole fall, and then arise again. And then I started thinking, well, that's strange because the modern year only really likes six to seven core

progressions. And then I was thinking about the big one that we all chase in like, you know, top 40 hits and church music. It's like different iterations of G, E minor, CD, G. And that is G's a status quo, E minor's a fall, and then CDD you're rising back up to where you started, G, which is literally like story circle, like Joseph Campbell, like Heroes Journey.

And that got me thinking, oh, wait, like, it really is just like pressing buttons to make you feel a certain way and you're creating these energetic shapes that for some reason our brains respond to. And for whatever reason, I think collectively we seem to have fallen in love with this, you know, this shape. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I don't know if that makes me feel better or worse about humanity. It's sort of like, we're very primitive beings that respond to stimuli in a very specific way. If you push this button, we're going to react this way. Yeah. Which I think speaks thematically to the show as well, because there's a lot of hand-wringing around like, why are these

characters behaving badly? But they're behaving badly based on early childhood traumatic experiences or systemic forces that are compelling them to behave in a certain way. Like, if you were that person and had lived their life, you would be doing exactly what they're doing. Yes. That's right. You know, in the same way that we respond unanimously to a certain chord progression. Yeah, I mean, I think that's what's so hard about being born into a body. It's like, suddenly, without consent, we are in this. And then now you and I are separate. And then we are trained to believe that our, like, subjective lens and that voice inside is actually us.

And it's so hard to see outside yourself. And like you're saying, those systemic forces, then almost ingrain you in yourself because suddenly you don't have the resources you need. You feel a lack. So then it's like, okay, I need to gather, gather to boost the self. And the more your self-focused and the less you're able to have the empathy to think, wait, if I were in that person's shoes, I'd be doing the exact same thing. Which is why I think we tell stories. And I think we've been doing this since we were in the cave around a fire.

we tell stories to try to break out of that rigidness of the self, you know? It's a deeply spiritual work wrapped in a very delicious, digestible pop culture flavor. You know, like you're working on a very deep level with the themes, you know, and you signal it at the end very overtly with the Somsar and the Mondela and all of that. But like those themes are operating throughout the entire season. It's a much more mature, you know, kind of growth out of season. one, like you've expanded your aperture and you're tackling, like, much deeper existential questions about what it is to be human.

Yeah, we definitely wanted to, you know, graduate, so to speak. Like, season one kind of felt like an examination of a lot of stuff from my past, you know. Like, Danny's character in season one, like, his struggles with mental health. And, you know, the season one opens with him returning Hibachi grills that he had bought to kill himself, which was, you know, just ripped from the headlines of my life, something that I did at one point. And so I feel like season one felt like very much like old chapter. And, you know, I'm so glad that you felt this shift because it didn't feel like season two, we wanted to tap into more of what's happening now for a lot of my. my peers and I of being 40-something and starting to grapple with time and and realizing, wait, like I'm becoming the generation before me.

Yeah. I didn't even realize that that was happening. And so I think because this was more now and season one's more old, it felt like also the filmmaking and the aesthetic needed to change a little bit. Like season one intentionally felt very like grungy and messy. And that's why all the needle drop. or 90s grunge because it felt like spiritually those characters were trapped back then. In that time period, yeah.

Whereas season two, we wanted to go more painterly, more lush. It's a season about love. So even the score is very emotive and you have these like, you know, thick synths that Phineas composed. And that felt much more of now, which I think as, you know, at least for me as you hit middle age, you start to feel new things. things. And there's a lot of melancholy and sadness, I think. As you lose, you know, during the making of the show, I, you know, I lost one of my dogs unexpectedly. And, you know, and then I put that into the show. And so there's a lot of sadness that we wanted to tap into. What got me in the door was I'm friends with David Cho.

And the fact that it was set in Calabasas, season one. And I became obsessed with the locations where you were shooting. In fact, the house, Stephen Yun's house, I'm like, I think I know where that house is. I was like, I think I know exactly where that house is. And I was out on a bike ride one day. And I pulled up this photo today. So here it is. Yeah, that's right.

And I took this photo on, let's see, hold on June 25th, 2023. Oh, no way. Wow. So you were very early. No, I was obsessed with. with the show. No, but the house is spotter. That's actually like a one minute walk from, from, from, from my home. But just seeing the foibles of people who live in Calabasas brought to the screen. And then in season two, like, I spend time in Ohio. Like, I'm not a

Montecito person, but I have friends in Ohio. I go up there. I was like, oh, my God, you're just like operating in my world, you know, reading my mind. But it's, it's these deeper themes that have got me really invested in it. I mean, this is all, you know, deriving from Ram Dass and Alan Watts and Esther Perel. Like these are like my touchstones, you know, and I spend a lot of time thinking about their work. And I know, because you've said it, that be here now is your favorite book.

Is that true? Yeah. I mean, your Instagram handle is be here now later. Oh, be here later. Oh, be here later. Okay. Yeah. Because it's like, yeah, you should be here now and then on Instagram later.

But yeah, I mean, honestly, I mean, you're, not to just gas you up because I'm here, but I mean, your podcast is hugely influential for my mental health and a lot of me processing these themes. I mean, you've introduced me through your guest, through so many people that are speaking to, and just even your own journey and how you're so about transformation and about kind of taking off the mask and examining what's really going on with being alive. I've consumed so much of your words and your guess words that it does filter into my work. That's beautiful.

I appreciate that. But now that I know that, now I'm jealous that the podcast drop in season two wasn't me and it was Huberman. But actually, much funnier that it was Andrew. Well, you don't talk about dopamine as much as your end does. Yeah, I definitely don't. I definitely don't. That was very, very funny. Oh, thanks.

What does that say about how you think about like the self-optimization movement and kind of the podcast landscape around like mental health? Because it's changed a lot, you know, like there's like I'm a beneficiary of this format of media, you know, becoming what it has become. But there's a lot about it also that's causes me a fair amount of concern. Yeah, it's certainly changed a lot. I mean, I think that's why it was sort of fun to, like, you know, poke fun at it through the show. But while also not rejecting it because, like, truthfully, like, I am, Josh. Like, I do, like, sit alone at my, you know, part of the house and listen to, you know, you and Huberman. And I'm constantly trying to, like, work on myself, but then, like, not really showing any fruits of that later.

Or using it to check out from the real thing. Yes, exactly. You know, like when Josh is like, I'm listening to a fucking podcast. But it's like clearly he has a crisis that he should be addressing. Exactly. Like, I think it's just like any, anything that we do as humans, it starts in earnest. And there is great truth in it. But then, like, it mutates.

Like, then everything else gets involved. Then, like, then there's commerce. And humans, we hadonic. adapt so quickly that suddenly this becomes the status quo and then you're looking for, you get accustomed to the rhythm of, okay, I'm going to listen to my podcast, but I'm going to stay the same. And then suddenly the thing that was enacting change becomes the thing that makes you stagnant. And then you need the new thing. And again, I think that's why we keep telling the same stories around the fire. Like, we've been telling the same stories to each other

for all of time. And I think it's because we're that dumb. Like we're like we hear a story. We're like deeply moved and we're like, I'm going to change starting now. And then and then we don't. Then we have to tell the same stories over and over again. And so I think the self-help movement while like it's helped me so much, it's going through the same reckoning. I think that every movement does, which is growth and then stagnation and then capitalism, you know, puts its claws in and then but then it has to adapt and change. And I, And I think it will. Yeah. I mean, the sort of overarching message that I get from season two is that change, evolution, growth,

like these things are possible and they're always within our grasp. We just get in our own way. Yes. And because of that, we're just playing out these loops. You know, we're faded to a certain destiny because we're stuck in a certain rut, you know,

and your Somsarra Mandala kind of really illustrates this. Like, breaking free is possible. It's just very difficult and most of us just can't do it. Yeah. I mean, I certainly have it. And randomly, I was on my way to a Timberwolves game and I was sitting next to Jay Shetty also in this world. And we like instantly became like fast friends and started talking about the themes of the show.

And he said something interesting about, you know, what he learned, you know, studying like over in India in the Vedic texts and that, you know, when it comes to mountains, there's actually mountains in the east where you're not allowed to climb them. It's illegal to climb them because spiritually it's sort of like something that's very like looked down upon to feel like you have to like climb it and reach it. And really what they do is instead just kind of they go around it, which is so beautiful to me. And my brain is so trained to climb mountains. And so even the act of breaking out of samsara,

it's like a mountain that I want to achieve. And so I think season two, at least for me, and I'm speaking more overtly about it here, probably than, I try to be more vague in other interviews because I do want to leave the show up into interpretation. But I know you, like, truly deeply get this. But for me, like, the feeling of being trapped in samsara can be so suffocating at times that it is truly the root of my mental health struggles.

I feel like this thing is a prison and I just want to break out. And I used to want to break out in a very, you know, detrimental way through self-harm. And now it's almost the opposite side of the same coin where it feels like a mountain where I'm like, okay, if I work on myself, if I do this, if I do that, then like, okay, I've got to climb this mountain and break out. And season two for me was trying to learn to accept that like, hey, it's, it's okay to just go around the mountain. Not only is it okay, that's actually the solution. Like the sort of strivers approach to like, I am going to achieve, you know, like my mental health is applying the problematic aspect of yourself to the problem. You know what I mean?

Instead of like, actually, if you just let go and not approach it like it's a goal to be achieved, you're more likely to begin to inhabit the solution. It's so counterintuitive, but it's so correct. You know, Stephen Young had an Ursula K. K. Le Guin quote that was a big North Star for beef, where she says, to oppose something is to maintain it. And yeah, that letting go is actually the thing. Yeah. But we keep forgetting. Yeah. My wife always says, if you're fighting against something, like even for good reasons,

like you're an activist or you're, you know, applying yourself to resolve, you have a cause. Like, you're still fighting. Yes. You know,

and that's the, that's sort of the brain pretzel of it all. And conundrum. Well, and I think that's, Alan Watts talks about it a lot with that concept of Wu Wei. How do you, how do you feel where the natural momentum is in life?

sort of like use it against itself. Like you can like in activism, you can fight right up against it. It usually causes more friction, but how can you actually like judo the thing that you're up against? And I tried to apply that just, you know, in writing and in, you know, in my collaborations. You know, oftentimes with networks, like, you know, you can get into like a standoff. And they're like, don't get a script. And then suddenly you're like just, all right, I'm going to dig my heels in.

And that's never worked. It usually ends up where you have to, at the end the day, lose because they're ultimately the network. Or you end up in this weird compromise that neither party likes. But I think you can learn to judo it, where you can take their fervor of notes and why they're saying the notes and try to use that to your advantage and be like, well, I'm on the same team as you. I want what you want. But here, like, come over here. Let me show you like a different way to achieve that. And let's talk about it together.

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Just head to irrestore.com and use code Richroll. That's Richroll at irrestore.com. Please support our show and tell them we sent you. Give your hair and the skin the upgrade they deserve so you can feel confident and refreshed. I want to get into your career path, but you mentioned your mental health journey, and I kind of want to start there. Like, you've been pretty transparent about your struggles with depression and how your personal life experiences find their way into the beef narratives. Like, when did that start for you? And how do you make sense of what caused it?

You know, I mean, I do therapy every week and, you know, I'm still trying to unravel it all. But, you know, I think it started at a very young age. I think, I remember, like, in sixth grade, I started, like, in sixth grade, I started, like, just devouring C.S. Lewis because I wanted to make sense of this. and and I think part of it is I moved around a lot I moved every three to four years of my life

and I love my parents so much and they did so much to give us a better life but then also we were constantly on the move and I think part of that is they were sort of chasing a sense of happiness that would always go awry and then they try to clean slate it

every three to four years. And so, like, home never felt like a safe space to me. And again, like, I know my parents may watch this. So, like, I do love them. And they did create safety in many ways. But for a variety of factors, I think emotionally, I, home wasn't safe. There's this one line that Ali Wong says at the finale of season one,

where she says, where nowhere feels like home, you just go inward. And that started really, really young. And I think also as a Korean kid kind of moving up and down the Midwest, not having a sense of home with your family and you don't feel at home in society, then you really feel alone.

Like, I just remember at such a young age, like truly understanding, like loneliness. And back then, I think, think loneliness felt like a thing to solve like again the mountain where like I need to I need to fill it with this I need to like find connection this way I need to throw myself into music or you know also I think for a lot of people my age that's when the internet was invented and I think a lot of guys my age then we like also you know it was like suddenly access to porn you know and then then that becomes like a thing that you scratch the itch with.

So I was always kind of like finding, trying to find these crutches that would eventually collapse. And then that would just make me more depressed and more depressed. Because there's always just emptiness on the other side of them. Well, I think eventually we all have to grapple with the fact that like, I mean, I wrote a lot of this into the finale of season one that I think the world is the way it is because we're just an of God, like, and I say God in a sort of a loose sense, like, we're the branches of a tree, and that tree is everything, so it is alone. Like, God is alone in nothingness, and we are just working itself out through this eternal process, and I think we all have to grapple with the fact that we're alone.

and but we've created all this as an illusion to like feel not alone but then you know this is all a you know like that word lila divine play it's a it's a play it ends and then you have to grapple with the fact that it's just we're operating in our Maya and in the same way that music and story structure works in this rise and fall method we craft these identities archetypal identities to help us make sense of who we are and where we fit in. And that's just a story and an illusion as well that we think makes us feel more connected, but actually becomes an obstacle. And like you're somebody who has this incisive ability to like deconstruct the generational

divide and you do it explicitly in season two with the difference between millennials and Gen Z. But it comes full circle to say like, it doesn't really matter. We're all just becoming our parents and doing the same thing. Like, you can be under this illusion for a little while, and then the older you get, you realize, like, there really isn't the difference that we think there is. Yes, yes. It's why the finale was titled, It Will Stay This Way, and You Will Obey, which is based on a Marion Woodland quote.

That is literally like, I think it starts with, like, old mother God, old father God, you have trapped us here. Yeah, it's like this feeling that, like you said, it doesn't, matter. The four seasons are going to come for you. I love talking to you about the finale because you're sort of the first person who, you know, explicitly is getting all the things that we put down. But we also ultimately wanted to leave that final shot, really open-ended and a blank canvas for the audience, because I don't know that, like, I know if I watched that in my 20s, I wouldn't really be speaking of it like this. I would probably be speaking of it as more of like a

negative ending, which I have found amongst my like Gen Z peers when they watch the show, they have a very different takeaway than when my, you know, 40-something friends watch the show. And I'd imagine, you know, boomers watch the show also take away something different. And I think that's the beauty of samsara is that as you go around the mountain, every time you go around, you're feeling and thinking something different. Yeah. Far be it for me to demand the artist explain his work. I don't want to put you in that position. But I think that you, like, you walked a tightrope in ending it in the way that you did

because you don't want to leave the audience with this cynical feeling about their fate. And you do a beautiful job of threading that needle by leaving us with some hope. But I do think, yeah, it is, it is the interpretation is on the beholder. And that's going to depend upon your lot in life and your, your set of unique life experiences and your age, your age as well. And so it's this interesting combination of timeless. Like if you go back and watch season two, you know, 10, 15 years later, you're going to interpret it differently because you've matured into a different, you know, kind of period of your life, season of your life. But it's also terminally online. You know,

you have, you like, you have this ability to really understand, like, youth culture and their relationship to the internet in this very authentic way. That doesn't feel like, patched on by a boomer. It's like this is, you are conversant in a way that I think that is another reason why audiences are responding to it because it just feels so real. Thank you. I think it's unfortunately due to me being terminally online and I need to, I need to stop. I've been researching for like six months and I don't know if you found something where

I really don't want to have my phone anymore. And there's all these new gadgets where like you can have. have the phone in the other room and it's just like a brick that you can just access Spotify, things like that. But then I just haven't found the right thing. And then I end up getting my phone. And the next thing I know, I'm reading every single negative comment about the show that exists online. Still. Oh, I like did it yesterday. Oh, you did. Yeah. It's become almost like a daily routine and I need to I need to stop but I think you know what I then I try to take that spirit and then put it into the work and then hopefully other people who are terminally online will relate yeah

but yeah I'm hoping the next project I do I'll have reached that goal of being less online and you can feel it in the work yeah it's almost like we need a new Maslow's hierarchy of needs that takes into account our relationship with the digital world. Oh my gosh. Have you seen that Adam Curtis documentary Hypernormalization? I haven't. It is. I think he is the most brilliant documentarian alive.

And if you haven't seen the century of self, that's like, that's so up your alley. It literally goes through like pre-World War to now and how we've basically created this century of self. and it really comes down to three people that started it. And he did this other documentary, I think, in 2016 called HyperNormalization that just has spot on predicted what the Internet has done to us. And then yet, like we were talking earlier, I watch it, I feel moved, and then I get my phone and I go to Reddit. What do you think is the fulcrum between understanding and behavior change?

change. I was hoping you would tell me. Yeah. Well, I mean, this is a question I ask everyone because it's, it is a, you know, it's a confounding one. You know, people change when they are ready to change, when, when they're visited with some degree of willingness. And pain is always the obvious motivator. Yeah. But, but. You usually take something, depending on how, what part of your life is rigid and how rigid it is. I find that it's like the more calamitous of an event. the more you're able to shake up the pattern.

But it's tough because I think as we get older, especially if you have privilege, you start to create a life that doesn't have any of those earthquakes. You know, Josh's monologue in episode 6 after doing Bufo or he talks about his inability to change, you know, that just, I wrote that in like, you know, two minutes. It just came pouring out.

of me. Um, uh, because I, I do feel that sometimes where, uh, like, I don't know when the tipping point is, but in your 20s and 30s, you keep feeling like, oh, I'm going to work on that. I'm going to change. Like, uh, like, I feel it, but it's not that big of a problem yet. And I'm going to, I'm going to work on it tomorrow. And then you blink and then it, it's become who you are. and suddenly it feels like you are unable to change at all. And that window closes so fast, at least in my experience. And I do wish, I kind of love that Josh is giving that advice to Austin. And then Austin applies it to something so small.

Like, have you ever, like, found someone else attractive while you're with? But I remember older people, giving me that vice in my 20s and me registering it, but then still you can't, you know? And I think that's why so many religions, I think the people who started those Abrahamic religions are literally just us having this podcast, but like in the desert having eaten some, you know,

psychotropic like, you know, root. And then they are thinking of these things. And then their solution was like, well, that's why you got to pray every day. That's why you have these daily routines. We're just going to write a bunch of rules because you need strict rules to be able to offset everything we're talking about. And then I think in modern life, I went to Korean church when I was growing up and I don't as much anymore.

We've lost kind of, we need a new set of modern rules, which I think is why self-help podcast. have become such a thing. Yeah, it's secular religion. Yeah. You know, this obsession with self-optimization, but it plays into the hyper individual, you know, kind of like the prioritizing the individual self above everything else, which loses sight of the best of what religious traditions teach us, which is it's about togetherness.

It's about the oneness. Yes. But we're, you know, operating in our identities and our illusion. And, you know, you're a storyteller. I mean, my theory on this is that there's nothing more powerful than a story well told. And we're very vulnerable to these stories. And we craft stories about who we are, like a version of like, we have this sense of like, I am this person. I do these things.

This is who I am. I can't do this and I can't do this. It's just a story. Like, we could rewrite that story at any time, but we don't. We buy into it and we believe it. and we believe it. And we then get stuck in these patterns of behavior that just play that story out again and again and again.

And we basically imprison ourselves through storytelling. I was thinking about it the other day of the shapes that we were talking about. When you think about kind of old shamanic cultures or even like you listen to like Tibetan monk music, there's no shape. They're just vamping on one note. You know, it's just this the whole time. And the stories they told weren't like rises and falls.

It was just the story about a flower. And, you know, it is sort of a mirror, like you're saying. Like, it's almost this recursive feedback loop that we're stuck in where, again, the cycles, too, of we're trying to chase change. So then the storytelling mirrors change. We have the status quo rise fall rise. And then we get addicted to that. And then suddenly it was just we see rise fall rise. So then we do rise fall rise.

And I would love to get to a point where narratively, it's so hard with like how streaming works now. But I love to get to a point where narratively like you could just sort of vamp. You know, like that's kind of what like, you know, link ladder used to do. in his early work, he'd just be vamping. There's no, there's no structure to slacker. Yeah, yeah, I mean, the best, you know. But for some reason, we're collectively not there yet.

But I mean, maybe it does take someone doing that and trying to incite that change in culture, but then it's tough, you know, as a filmmaker, I'm like, oh, I would love to make a slacker. Then you can't. Yeah, but then Marvel. knocks on your door and says, are you interested in X-Men? And then you're 55 years old and you're living this big life and you're like, why would I risk this to go make my version of slacker? Oh, totally.

I mean, that's exactly what happened. I did uncredited work for Thunderbolts for my friend Jake Schreier, who I work with a lot. And I remember telling my reps and all my friends, I'm like, just remind me that I'm not going to do blockbuster movies again. no knock on Marvel. And then next thing you know, they're like, hey, we have X-Men. I'm like, I'll do it. But Jake is involved in that. He is.

He is. He is the director. He is the director, yeah. I mean, so, I mean, I love working with Jake. But then also, like, you know, if Jake were doing, like, you know, another Avengers, I probably wouldn't do it. But it's X-Men. Like, I grew up on X-Men.

That's my favorite thing ever. Like, my dad and I used to wake up Saturday mornings and watch, you know, the animated series together. So it's really hard to say no to that because then like I think about like my childhood me like how am I going to go back in time and tell that you know. Yeah, we got offered X-Men and I said that. There's a hewereous in being like, no, I'm not doing that because like I need to make slacker.

Yeah, exactly. You probably can't say very much about X-Men, but can you report on where you are in the cycle of this movie getting made? Yeah, I mean, we've been working on a draft, Joanna Callow and I, who's also a frequent collaborator, she co-show runs and co-directs The Bear. There's a lot of internet stuff about casting, and we, you know, that is true.

Marvel is casting right now. And, you know, Kevin, Jake, and Lou read a draft of ours. I think they're super excited. We're in the middle of rewriting that draft, And what I love about Kevin Feige, and I've just grown to admire him more and more, is like, there's a reason he is running Marvel for as long as he is. Like, he has incredible instincts.

And a true, like, childlike joy in the work, it really is play when you, like, get in a room with him. And so that's been really a surprisingly fun part of this. Like, I was sort of dreading going back into the blockbuster world, but I didn't interact with Kevin as much on Thunderbolts, but on X-Men, it's like every single meeting he's a part of, every single writing session he's a part of. And getting to his joy is so contagious that getting to do that and remember that what I get to do is play at the end of the day has been a nice, like, you know, perspective reshift for me. Well, it's an interesting moment for Marvel.

Oh, yeah. We're having this kind of epic original IP moment right now, which is fantastic. You know, you just can't even get a ticket to see The Odyssey and IMAX for like weeks. It's really exciting and fun and cool. And we're also seeing the maturation of these younger filmmakers, you know, backrooms and obsession. Like things are shifting in a good and super interesting way right now. but it changes the audience's relationship with legacy IP, like what Marvel has been so good at.

And now, you know, now there's, you know, it's a little bit different. Like I think the stakes are pretty high. Very high. And maybe that's why Kevin Feige is showing up at all the meetings. Do you feel that pressure? Like, they need a win. Kevin's very self-aware and he'll joke about it for sure. But I think that's why he's been.

been so supportive of taking big swings with X-Men and not thinking plot first, but character-first, which is kind of a no-brainer. That's like writing 101 is, of course, character-first. But I think with success, again, like what we were talking about, like every movement starts in earnest, just like Marvel did, and then it stagnates. And then capitalism comes in, and then it has to evolve. And I think Marvel is evolving. I got to see an early cut of Spider-Man a brand new day, and it's fantastic. It's really, really good. Like Destin knocked it out of the park.

And so I think there is a turning of the cycle happening over there. Yeah. Well, it's a gigantic conglomerate corporation. And like any maturation of any company, at some point, they're going to be disrupted unless they disrupt themselves. Yeah. But you can kind of cave in under the weight of your large S. Yeah.

And that's like the life cycle of every big company. Yeah. I think they were very smart. They had scaled too much and too fast, in my opinion, with all the TV shows and things like that. And I think Kevin very smartly has like, all right, like, let's let's, let's, like, you know, filter out some of the noise and get back to what we're very good at. I'm just kind of one small cog in that giant process. And I think Joanne and I are just trying to do right by these characters and inject some depth. There's a lot of Venniagram, I think, with Beef Season 2 from a bird's eye view.

So I think hopefully audiences will feel that. This episode is sponsored by BetterHelp. I am a 30-plus-year believer in the transformational power of therapy, which is why I've advocated on behalf of BetterHelp for many years at this point, because it's a platform that democratizes access to mental health services. But don't take my word for it. Take in the reviews BetterHelp makes available and easy for anyone to read at BetterHelp.com slash reviews.

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nature, that it keeps that human touch. And a great example would be the haptic halo wheels on the new R2. On either side of the steering wheel, there's a dial that you could roll, push, and pull to adjust things like the AC or skipped in the next song. And they have this incredibly satisfying tactile feel because you're really clicking a button and rolling a mechanical wheel. I was recently able to drive an R2 with RJ Scringe, the founder and CEO, and he shared the thinking behind this cool and unique feature. So walk me through the thinking on that because as technology is sort of informing this screen-only experience, there is something in the human animal that craves that kind of tactile control. Yeah, and that was part of what the logic was here. And that was from the feedback we had in

R1, is the desire from some more mechanical touchpoints and also the ability to not have to use the multi-touch screen for everything. And so being able to do HVAC through this side, your entertainment through that side, you also have drive modes in you as well. There are just so many features packed into this vehicle. You can learn all about them, watch the rest of our conversation, and even book a demo drive at stories.rivian.com slash rich roll. I was thinking about Ashley and Austin and their relationship dynamic, because there's so much like relationship stuff going on.

New love, matured love, old love, what do relationships mean? What is the definition of love for different people at different stages of their life? And on Reddit, there's like a lot of hand-wringing around the Ashley character. Like people are, it's really like a lightning rod for people. And I think that's also a lens into somebody's generational perspective. Like depending upon how old you are, you're going to have a certain opinion of that character. Totally. And what's generating her bad behavior or what's creating sympathy for the way that she's behaving.

Yeah, we talked a lot about that as we were writing, and even in the edit, because most of the network and people chiming in on notes on the show are elder millennial gen X or older, and they have a very specific lens upon how they're viewing these characters. But then we'd often have to remind everyone, like, intentionally we are crafting the show so that, you know, Gen Z can have a different experience watching this show than millennials do and vice versa. But it has been surprising to me, like, the degree to which Ashley is such a lady we're on. But, you know, I think if we're all being honest, like, you know, at least for me, I don't want to speak for everybody. But there are so many aspects of Ashley that are, have been in my psyche, whether in the past or currently, you know. And I think maybe that's why it's so triggering. It's just like she is the most overtly like a part of myself that I don't like.

And then you see it. And then you have to protect yourself as a viewer because you're like, that's not me. And I'm going to just hate her. You know? But I think if we're being honest, her behavior is triggering because there's some truth in there. Yeah. There's something about yourself that you're unhappy with that's being reflected in this character. Like if you're upset about that, it's, it's probably because you're compartmentalizing

or in denial about some aspect of your own behavior. Yeah. That's being mirrored in that character. Like when I look at her, I see my mother, you know, like this is a person, to me, it's very clear. Like, she has, like, both of them have attachment issues. She is an avoidant, you know, or she's an, she hasn't, she's anxious attachment. Yes. And he is an avoidant, you know, and of course they're together. Like, you know, it's like archetypal, right? And so, yeah, they're behaving this way. Like, this is my mother and my father. And it's upsetting to me because, like, it's making me relive that dynamic, you know. Yeah, she is for sure anxious attachment. And I'd be curious, like, if there's, I wish Netflix had, like, data that was like, like, you know, this percentage of avoidant viewers

found actually, like, despicable. You know. Like, I am curious, like, if you have anxious attachment, are you more inclined to relate to Ashley, or do you like her less? I think you, I think if you're an anxious attachment person, then you're going to sympathize with her. You're going to understand why she's behaving that way. Yeah, I hope so. They both suffer trauma that make them this way. Exactly. It's like you can sympathize with what caused them to behave in this way, whether you disagree with their behavior or not.

Which is why we wrote her backstory the way it was. A lot of it was influenced by, you know, some of Kaylee Spaney's, you know, a backstory, not one-to-one, but, you know, the soup of discussions led to this backstory of someone who, um, her, you know, Ashley's mom wasn't around. Like, her mom and dad split when they were young. And then, uh, the dad started a new family. And the mom just is, is not really around. And so then you have, uh, you know, I'm sure for Ashley as a child, her parents split, her dad's got a new family, so there must be this need to like, okay, I wanna still be a part of a family. Like, you know, I need a people please. I need to do they still like me? Like I imagine at a young age that started.

And so, you know, we try to show not tell in our show, of, you know, we have that backstory. There's that hallucinatory moment, nightmare in the hospital with the mom phone call. As we try to leave some breadcrumbs to get the audience to hopefully have empathy for why she is the way she is. But there seems to be definitely a certain subset of the beefier ship that, like, rejects that backstory. She has been rejected by the people who were meant to love and nurture her. And so she is going to do everything in her power to create stability and a feeling of connection.

and anything that threatens that is an existential threat to her life. And so she's going to respond violently to that. Yeah, exactly. And I think that's why she's hanging on so tightly to this relationship. It's not even about Austin at the end of the day. She just can't. He's just a vehicle for that. Exactly.

I don't think she can emotionally process the grief of losing this crutch that replaced the original hurt. And for Austin, who, you know, is avoidant, I think when he's faced with the fact like, oh, I'm going to go chase Eunice, who is also being now being avoidant with me, that doesn't feel good for an avoidant because they actually secretly like this chase of an anxious person coming at them because they're avoiding. They get to be the avoider. And suddenly avoidant is faced with an avoidant. And then I think in the finale, he has to reckon with, wait, like, I don't think this person actually loves me back. I don't love Ashley, but she is at least dependable in the sense that I can depend on her to be anxiously attached to me no matter what. So he does the, you know, safe, you know, I guess not courageous thing. In some regards, Charles Melton, I think, in embodying Austin actually,

I think he views the ending as courageous in some ways, as almost as he, that his character realized that he has to be an adult. And in order to have a family and a career, and, you know, he's actually making a mature choice for once to, to buy into adulthood. You know, that's one take on it. But I think for me, in that moment in the cab, Austin is kind of going back to the familiar. It's it is a tragic choice because he's making it with a degree of self-awareness. Like he understands why he's making this decision and he's still making it. But that archetype will also rationalize it by saying, well, like, you know, like they're sacrificing themselves for this other person and there's something beautiful about that. And that's true. Yes.

It was curious to me when Austin, Charles Milton's character, like who, you know, he just is so good at playing the kind of somewhat dim-witted but sweet guy. Like you just, you want him to win. You're cheering for him. But, you know, he's just kind of like, you know, he just doesn't, he's not dealing with a full deck all the time. But then when it comes to diagnosing Ashley, he just like nails it as if he was, you know, young himself.

And I'm like, that feels sort of inconsistent with this character that you've established. But then I think, well, he's always going on Reddit and like getting answers. So he just memorize, like, is that the idea there that he just went there and found this thing and like recited it? Yeah, we try to like sort of breadcrumb, even from the first episode, someone who, like you say, like goes on Reddit, you know, reads all the smart things. And he references also like self-help and love advice all the time. So, you know, again, we're trying to write what we know and feel true to real life. Like, I do that for

Sure. So many writers in the room do that where like we'd be like talking about something in the writer's room and someone would be like, oh, hey, I read that blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. I'm like, did you read it or did you see an Instagram post? And they're like, I saw a post. And I'm like, and do you do you have anything else to add to that? Or is that like the end of your knowledge? And I think that's just all of us right now as we have a very like cursory superficial relationship with. the amount of self-help stuff coming at us. And so I think Austin's been doing that all season, and he's probably been in conversations with his mom, in conversations on Reddit, starting to get a sense of how he feels about Ashley. But then being of an avoidant, he hasn't expressed it. And then finally at the end, it just kind of all comes pouring out.

I've definitely done that too, where like, you know, I certainly am not a psychologist, but I will like see an article. I'll be like, oh, that's this person. I'm going to mentally clock that, you know, and then I just pented, I hold it and hold it in and then some fight and I just like drop the bomb. But I have no like actual like knowledge or like I'm not in a position to be giving that diagnosis. So, you know, we were trying to just kind of stay true to. you know, what a lot of us, I think, experience in real life.

You also stayed true to the way that young people actually use their phones and the internet. Like a lot of sort of texting and that sort of thing in television shows and movies feels tacked on for exposition reasons. But here it's so germane to the characters and the advancement of the plot that it just becomes like it's a feature, not a bug, you know, in the way that, in way that you do it. So I thought it would be interesting to hear your thoughts on like what is the difference between in your mind like Gen Z and Millennials? Like what is what is the how do you define that divide or that delta? Oh man, that's a great question. I find that and uh like I don't want to speak too generally because then I know I'm going to spend an evening reading the negative comments

to uh that's what I'm about to say. You got to stop doing that. I do, yes. And I think millennials tend to use social media to be very presentational. It's more about, like, how do I use this vehicle to then, like, create a certain image that can then funnel back into my ego. And I think Gen Z, because they, maybe they started doing that similarly at a younger age. But then at this point, I feel like Gen Z is more like using social media to like get what they want, you know, rather than like it's like millennials are like we're like outwardly seeking into the void of the internet to hopefully get something back. Whereas Gen Z's like, no, I want money. So I'm going to create content to then get money.

I don't like sure like it's nice to get likes and blah blah. But at the end of the day, I want this. so I'm going to use this means to get it. Whereas I still see millennials, like, I don't see as many millennials like content creating, but they certainly are producing just as much content, but to just feel good about themselves. Yeah, for external validation reasons.

Yeah, I think that's, again, my observation. I hope I don't like painting in broad strokes because the internet gets mad. but that tends to be what I see. Yeah, that's super interesting. I'm an elder Gen X. No Gen X in season two. You skipped over this.

This is my thing. This is my beef with not just this season of beef, but in general, like we get lumped in with boomers. It's like everything's okay boomer. And I was like, dude, we're the coolest. Why did everyone forget this? Well, what? I fully agree.

We get erased from the record. I'm 81. So I am elder millennial Gen X Cusp. I do think that Gen X is the greatest generation. But I fully agree. Gen X just kind of gets lost. And honestly, Oscar Isaac is Gen X. Like, he is not, like in real life, he is not elder millennial.

And there's a time when we were writing where we're like, oh, should we like stay true to real life and have like Carrie Mulligan be elder millennial and Oscar Isaac be Gen X. but then just in theme, it felt cleaner to just be like it's elder millennial versus Jan Z. So that's how Jeddx got cut out of this one. But it is interesting.

I do, like spiritually, I relate to Gen X the most because being cusp where the late 90s in early 2000s was very like the most influential for me. You know, like late 90s music is like what I live and breathe. And, you know, early Link Ladder, like Reality Bites, singles. Like, that was so formative. But, but yeah, we, I don't know if it's just because, like, Gen X is, like, when you think about those movies and that music, it's, it,

spiritually doesn't feel like an energy that, like, doth protest too much. You know what I mean? Like, it's, like, literally, like, slackers, you know? It's just like, ugh. But that's the whole sensibility of Gen X. You know what I mean? Just sort of like whatever.

Yeah. So of course as you get lost as a generation, it's just like, because we didn't raise our hands enough, I guess. But there is this great 90s nostalgia moment right now that is impacting Gen Z. Like Gen Z seems very affectionate in their kind of nostalgia for the 90s.

I think the same thing is happening because the Gen X was a response to, Reagan era, very corporate buttoned up Christian ideology, and then, of course, the generation after was like, no thank you. We're going to break all those rules.

And I think Gen Z feels that way, it's like the next cycle of it. They're looking at all the rules and sort of ideologies and the rigidness of what came before and being like, wait, like,

I'm listening to Nirvana or Smashing Pumpkins and I'm starting to something's resonating in me because I'm going through that right now and so it's really cool to like see them rediscover and then also how Gen Z gravitates towards things that like the fact that Gen Z gravitates

towards deaf tones in a way that you know Gen X, Deftones never got its proper due in the 90s. It's that's amazing you know and it does give me great hope for the future. It actually, like, truly is life-affirming to see things like this because, like, the cycles, it's not just like a circle. It feels like it's a spiral. And like each time

it's a little different and each time it grows and evolves and it's like heading somewhere, which is nice. Yeah. I have a 19-year-old daughter. And she has the most eclectic taste because she's not waiting for the new album to drop or what the radio station is going to tell. And she has the most tell her that she should like. She has the entire canon of music available to her to choose what speaks to her. And she's like, it's like Sonic Youth and Elliot Smith. And then it's jazz and then it's like some, you know,

from the 40s and then it's boards of Canada, like all this cool new stuff too. And so she's like my muse for tasting culture, you know. Like I just think there's something really awesome about that. Yeah. Because I was just like what's on the radio, you know, when I grew up. Totally. So within this nostalgia for the 90s because it was, you know, the last analog era, like, I think what gets overlooked is, you know, the limitations of that.

And that culture was sort of impressed upon us or dictated. Like we didn't necessarily get to define it until something like Nirvana comes along and like it just becomes undeniable. Yeah, exactly. doing season two, I did find myself becoming more aware of how I was turning into the older generation. And I think what naturally happens as millennials are hitting their 40s is it's easy to become the version of the generation that used to be above us, where you're judging the next generation. And you're like, oh, like, these kids don't know. and like back in my day, blah, blah, blah. But I love what you're saying because it's like,

that's actually us as old heads talking. Like when you really put yourself in the shoes of the youth, like that is really cool that they like can just get to pick eclectically in a way that we didn't. And I try to remind myself, I catch myself every day doing things where I'm like, oh, I sound like what a 40-some-year-old used to sound like to me. That's so important to try to keep your brain

you know, your neuroplasticity from getting too rigid. And that's what I'm so excited about, like, raising my daughter, like, already. Like, her personality is shining through. She's walking and talking. And I can't wait to see what she likes, you know? That's so beautiful. It was a real wake-up call for me watching season two. I had this, like, realization that millennials are adults now.

Like, because I'm old enough. I'm like, oh, there's, millennials are the young generation, you know, and I was like, wait, Oscar, Isaac. Yeah, okay, maybe he's Gen X, but he's portraying a character, like a mature grown-up character who is a millennial. And I was like, wow, I'm old. Yeah. Because I remember when we were just lamenting the millennials as, like, lazy and not wanting to work. Yeah. It's like, Jen Z's like, like, hold my beer, like these tropes around like, you know, like, no one wants to work hard and all that kind of stuff.

Like, we're just recycling these things. I'm sure, you know, the great generation and the boomers looked at Gen X as the ultimate slackers, you know, and now we're doing the same thing. The exact same thing. Yeah. And that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's the final shot of the season. Yeah. You know, I feel like the best thing to do with with these these waves is is to try to learn how to surf them, you know, and acknowledge the differences, but then not be so, uh, entrenched and triggered. you know, the wave exists. And so instead of like fighting it or being mad at it, like, it's there. It's beautiful. Let's let's surf the fact that this keeps happening and that each generation is repeating itself in their own way. But, you know, it's easier to say than do for sure. So you've been writing now for 20 years? Almost 20. Yeah. I think I've moved out here 2008.

Yeah, I don't, time. I don't understand time. Yeah. Wait until you get to be my age. It changes. Your first job was in the NBC page program. Is that right? Like, when was your first, like, break, break?

You know, how long did it take before you're like, oh, I actually think I might be able to have a career? I think it was two, two, two mini, one mini break and then one big break. The mini break was getting into the NBC page program. I was unemployed and just kind of temping in New York. And a friend of mine, I lived in Greenpoint back then. And he was concerned for my mental health because I literally, Greenpoint back then was just not gentrified yet.

It was fully Polish. You couldn't find a grocery store that was like ingredients in English, you know? And so I never left the home. I just stayed into my apartment and watched the OC over and over again. and he was starting to get very concerned about me. So he slipped my resume without me asking to his friend who was in the page program. And surprisingly, I got a call for an interview. I didn't take it seriously.

I was 15 minutes late to the interview. And somehow miraculously I got in, and that was my first real exposure to the entertainment industry. And sure, I was wearing a peacock tie and giving studio tours for $10 an hour, but I caught the bug. I was like, I can't believe there are jobs in this world. Out of that, I got a job at The Today Show. Truly hated it. Lovely people, but my hours were like 1.30 p.m. to 4.30 a.m.,

which is the opposite of everyone. So I used that weird schedule to then, I had a writing partner back then. We just started teaching ourselves how to write. We would watch shows, read books, and every weekend, instead of going out, we would sit down and try, writing scenes together.

And eventually we wrote a pilot about the page program. And sent it to friends. And one of our friends, Lynn Barry, who used to be at Today Show, she was an assistant to Jeff Engold, who at the time was the head of NBC comedy. He runs Bill Lawrence's company now. And he was so gracious. He read it, called us, and was like, hey, I just bought a pilot about the page program, and this script's better.

Like, do you guys have agents? And we said no. And he's like, you know what, I'm going to call every major agency on your behalf. And suddenly we had like CAA, William Morris Endeavor, just everyone calling us. And so we took a week off work, Fulat, L.A. I remember my then riding partner didn't want to do this, but I was hell bent on splurging like an extra couple hundred dollars to rent a Mustang convertible. Because I wanted to like ride around Beverly Hills with the top down and feel like, you know, I was. in the industry. And we went with the fanciest agent at the time who repped like all of the office

and Mindy Kaling and all the Scrubs writers. And he told us to move out to L.A. by Upfronts, which was May 15th, I think. And we did. And then everything went to shit. It was just like, couldn't get meetings. Agent wouldn't return our calls. And the next thing I know, I was unemployed and tempting again in LA. And it wasn't until, you know, we got a new manager. Somehow our scripts ended up on the table of Rob Charlie and Glenn at It's Always Sunny in Philadelphia. And they brought us in for a general meeting. It lasted 10 minutes. I was certain we didn't get it. And then we got the call. And that was like the true big break. So that was your first writer's room. First writer's room is my favorite show on television. I couldn't believe.

I was getting to hang out with Rob Charlie and Glenn every day in the writer's room. They're like the nicest best guys. Still to this day, I'm like Glenn Howardson's one of my closest friends. And that was a real 360 degree education because those guys do everything. They write, direct, act, produce. And that became like the foundation for what I do. Like I kind of joke with the Beef Riders room sometime that if always sunny and beef are actually like really similar. It's just

Always Sunny is like the comedy broadness just cranked up to 12 but it's usually like something small and annoying happens and then everyone acts out of ego on Always Sunny and then

it gets worse and worse and worse and that's really like the formula for beef it's just we take the tone and just dial it down a little bit when you're collaborating with so many people on a television show, tone is everything. And you're not, I mean, you did your first director gig in the finale of season one, right?

And then you directed three or four episodes in season two. But you're not directing every episode. You're the showrunner. You're the head writer. You're responsible for the tone. But there's hundreds of people working on this show. Like, you have to be a general, like to make sure that everyone is making the same show. and you can't control everything.

How do you ensure that? Just so many hours of talking. And a lot of like analogies I find are very helpful because it's so hard to like get someone inside your brain. And so I'm just trying to always find words and analogies and formulas. Season one of the writers room I came up with a tone formula that I told the room kind of as a joke, but then it started to get serious and we stuck to it, where I said that the beef tone should be 35% early Paul Thomas Anderson slash Sopranos comedy where you're laughing at the broken psychology of someone, plus 35% like Netflix bingeability, White Lotus Water Cooler moments, like Fincher propulsion, plus 30% Ingmar Bergman slash Hirokasa Coriata, warm, melancholic pathos.

And like the war of melancholy was key. And we had that up on our Zoom a lot. And anytime we looked at a scene, we'd kind of try to make sure, like, are we hitting the percentages? Like, does this scene, we just had a scene that was really propulsive. Like, should we make sure that this scene has sort of that Ingmar-Bergman pathos to it? And during season two, I just, you know, tom.

tone-wise gave that same formula to everybody. Yeah. And it feels like A-24 is the only, like, home for that. There's something about A-24. It's like, you know it when you see it. You can't quite put your finger on it. It is tone, it's sensibility, it's aesthetic. But it's real.

It is real. I mean, you know, people, there's been a lot of articles and being written about how they're like now just like, they're more merch than creative, et cetera, et cetera, which, sure, I think that's just a testament to how good their marketing is. Like, their merch is great. But at the end of the day,

the reason they have so much success is still the creative. And I think they have people, you know, Ravi Nondin, who's the head of 824 television, I actually knew him from when I worked at NBC. He was a producer on this, like, really broad, bad pilot that I wrote for NBC in 2009. And then we kind of like, kept in touch over the years.

And then as he got to 824, we just had sushi to get, like, reacquainted. And I was telling him about this road rage incident that I had gotten into. And I was like, I don't know. I think there's, like, a show here because, like, there's something so funny about being trapped in, like, a literal mechanical bubble.

And you're just, like, in your own subjectivity, no idea what the other person's going through. And he, right there, he was like, let's do that show. I was like, really? He's like, go off. Like, who do you want to have an, it. I was like, well, I've always wanted to work with Stephen Young. He's one of my good friends. And we've been trying to find something together. He's like, that's brilliant. Let's attach

Steven Young. And so there's this other places where you'd have to go through so much red tape and like, oh, that's interesting. Let's develop it. And you know, blah, blah, blah, blah. When they feel something, they move, you know, and they really trust the artist's instincts too. It's less about like them trying to prescriptively tell you what to do. It's more like, oh, you're passionate about that. Let's find ways to support it, you know. Even now that there's this one idea, I mean, Ravi and I are so close friends now, but I was on the phone with him. I was telling him about a project that I'm not doing with A24. And I was telling him about the world. And he was like, oh, my gosh, that's fascinating. Let me hook you up with my friend who actually runs the biggest company in that, in that industry.

And you should, like, you know, get close to him and do like a tour or something. Like, that's someone who is just acting from like a pure artistic place. And you hear it time and time again with people who've worked with them. Like, it's just like a, it's different for sure. It's definitely special. I think people are concerned. They just raised a bunch of money. What does this mean?

You know, is it going to stay the same? It's going to be different. You know, the 824 bros. You know. They're a vocal bunch. And it probably won't stay the same. It'll follow the same thing we've been talking about, where it'll start in earnest, it'll grow,

it's stagnate, and then they'll have to change. But the fact that they like made backrooms, you know, like King Parsons, it's like a $64 million development deal, 20? Yeah, like no other place would do that.

I think they are also evolving. And I definitely, like, beef would not exist without, Ravi in 824, that's for sure. You've spoken publicly about your early experiences in in writers' rooms and some of the challenges that you had and this sensibility that you were a DEI higher and kind of like, oh, well, you know, I'm not really a right. Like, walk me through like that experience and then maturing out of that, you know, kind of really inhabit your authentic voice. Like, what did that take? What was that experience like? And what did you have to

do to like, you know, own your confidence and your voice. In hindsight, I think I get frustrated with my younger self because I, you know, I've relived some moments in writers' rooms, whether there's one show I wrote on where there was a very stereotypical Asian character and very cliche. And the jokes, just 100% of the time, came at his expense. I remember there was one, the showrunner of that show, there was one joke about that Asian character where it was about him eating a dog. And, you know, half the room was appalled by it, but then half room was cackling and the showrunner loves it. And, you know, like he turns to me and to see how I feel.

And like in the moment I should have been like, go fuck yourself, you know, like I should have like sit up for for myself for for that character. And then I just kind of like shrugged and I was like, oh, you know, like it's funny. Like, you know, like I just kind of went along with it. And there was just so many incidents like that where inside I was dying, but outwardly, you know, you're afraid of losing your job. You're afraid of it. And and. And. Yes, like, I think could I have been more courageous? Absolutely. But I acknowledge I wasn't in those moments. And, you know, I think I have to live with that. But, you know, I think a lot of writers of color, the stories that I share are just like tip of the iceberg. There's some horrible things that happen in these.

rooms if you're a person of color. And we kind of, the system was in a way where it was really hard to shake it up. I'm very grateful that in the last, you know, 10 years that so much progress has been made and so much change has been made and a show like beef can exist. And like certainly behavior like that just will not be tolerated in today's writers' rooms. But then like you look out at 2026 at society at large. And then, And it does get scary because you're like a lot of progress has been made, but then it also at times feels like we're kind of one step forward, two steps back. And, you know, speaking of generations, I do admire that about Gen C. You know, I think that that Instagram thing, the social media thing is just, I think, a microcosm of, for myself and my peers of my generation, there was so much outward validation seeking, you know.

So you're sitting in that writer's room, you hear this joke at your expense, but you are outrely seeking validation that you belong here. And that, so you laugh. Versus Gen Z, what's so cool about what they're doing is they're not seeking. They're having none of it. Yeah. They're just like, no, like I'm here in this room to build my career. And we're not doing that joke.

And guys like me are like, have you earned that confidence? Like, first you have to do the work and then maybe I will, like, you know, grant you that you should be here. Totally. But then, but that's the thing. And like, I do find myself saying that as well. But then one of the younger writers that I have kind of like, I don't want to say mentored, but Alex Russell, who's younger than me, I think he's Gen Z, Millennial Cosp. He's, the moment I met him, he's that energy where it's just like, says what he wants, knows what he wants, very, very secure in his tone.

And it often ran against whatever room he was in, you know, but he didn't care. And I saw that and, you know, helped him get a manager. And for his debut film that he directed, Lurker, I executive produced it because I was like, that guy is going to like create something that is so uniquely him because you feel that energy of like, I don't care that you're older than me or that you're a more established producer. Like, this is what I know. And so it's been cool to see, like, even though like my instinct was like, okay, like, dude, I had to like slum it in rooms for decades before I even had the opportunity.

But then, like, I process that, put it aside, know that there's talent there and try to like, you know, connect the right dots for him to, you know, he eventually, this amazing producer, Alex Orlovsky came onto the movie. and took it to the finish line. But generationally, like, how can we, as millennials and Gen X, not do the thing that the boomers did to us? Like, certainly it's normal to feel like they have to earn it, but then how can we change that, you know?

But again, easier said than none. Yeah. There's something awesome. Like, I just marvel at a young person who's walking around just brimming with confidence. You know, it's just like, how is that possible? You know, like, I'm just like, I don't deserve luck. I'm just, my inner, you know, inner monologue is just, like, just berating me constantly.

Well, do you have you ever? Wow, that's so, like, how did that happen, you know? Well, have you heard the study that, um, there's some study that came out that your inner monologue is just one of your parents' voice from a specific, a year of childhood? And I think that's, so I think we probably have similar inner monologues, but probably like similar, uh, parent saying similar things. And I think Gen Z, a large portion of them, have the opposite inner monologue because their parents were just like, like, the best in the world. Like, yeah, I'm the best. Of course I'm supposed to be in this room.

You know, that's what I've heard my whole life. Yeah. And now as a parent, I'm like, I don't know what the right approaches, you know, perhaps it's the middle ground. But, yeah, it's the pendulum, you know, it's swinging in its extremes. And it has to find it, you know, its balance over time. So that's the spiral. you know, like trying to find its happy medium, I guess. Did you fall at all into the sort of gentle parenting as a response to what came before?

Oh, 100%. Like, I just, you know, it was just a free-for-all with my... Like, for the... Like, I'm also like an avoidant. I don't want conflict. So, like, I'm not a taskmaster, you know? And I'm, I suffered at the hands of, like, you know, outrageous expectations that I could never meet. and just, you know, this withholding of love and, you know, like the idea that it's conditioned

upon, like, some degree of achievement in the world and all of that. And, uh, and I wanted to alleviate that burden from my kids, but I probably have gone too far in the other direction. I don't know, but like, you also realize, because now, like, my kids are older, like, and you, you realize young, when they're super young, like, they are who they are. Like, they come. especially when you have multiple kids and you realize how different they are, it has nothing to do with you. Yeah. Arrive like on some level fully baked and now seeing them as young adults. It's like you're still exactly the same as you were as a kid.

And I think it's humbling because we have this idea as parents that were like it's so critical. And parenting is important. I think parenting is like to be a healthy, conscious parent is like really the most important thing you can do. But at the same time, you also realize you're just kind of like throwing guardrails up here and there and they're going to be who they're going to be. Yeah, yeah. So, and that's sort of alleviates the anxiety of parenting a little bit. Certainly helps me a lot. Yeah.

Because you, we sort of, I feel like there was this myth of nature and nurture and that, like, it's sort of like 50-50, but it certainly sounds like it's more nature. Yeah, I mean, I go back and forth. I don't know. I think it's another Zen Cohen brain pretzel sort of thing that, you know, we're going to, we're in a cycle of just, you know, trying to understand that forever. Yeah. But we don't have free will anyway. Yeah, that's true. So who cares?

You, on that subject, though, for, you know, a very long time, you were Sonny Lee. Like, it's only more recently that you're putting your, you know, original, your, your, your, your real. real birth name on your work. Like when did Sunny become your name and when did you get to a point where you're like, no, it's Li Sung Jin and that's how it's going to be from now and out. I mean, I was born with the name Li Sung Jin and in Korea, Lee's my surname, so many outlets, like think Jin's my surname. But I put Lee first because in Korean the surname goes first. So that's why Director Bong-Jun Ho, Pong is his surname, and Director Bakhjana Park is a surname.

So I was born with that name. And then sixth grade, when I moved from Korea to Minnesota, that's when the name became a daily issue because I had an accent, and Minnesotan teachers had never seen those letters in that order before. And so every day in attendance, they would like add new consonants as they called out my name. You know, they'd be like,

Siongoukujin Lee, and people would laugh, I'd feel so embarrassed. And after like a couple weeks of that, I remember I was sitting at my desk in class, and there was like a paper, like an assignment with, and I was just staring at the name portion. And I don't know what came over me. I just wrote Sunny with an O for some reason. And it's certainly not like I had watched something with that name.

I didn't like just watch Godfather or something. something, I was just like, Sunny, that's what I'm going to go by. And I told my teacher, I told my friends, and everyone was like, that makes our lives easier. And I told my family. And somehow it stuck from sixth grade all the way to probably, I want to say, like, 36, 37-ish. And I was perfectly content going by Sunny in my career. And then I think it was 2018, I want to say that I was getting coffee at Dogtown Coffee in Santa Monica, and I put in my order and they read your order off of your credit card name. And I'm just waiting and I was back in sixth grade all of a sudden because they read it wrong.

And then people around me laughed. And then I like shrunk, grabbed my order and just kind of slunk out of there. And I didn't like the way that felt, you know. I was like, I'm a grown man, and I am reverting back to my sixth grade self because of my name. And that year, I think a parasite was coming out. I was thinking about director Bongjin-ho and director Bakchanuk. And like, when people say those three syllables, like, one, no one's butchering by her name. And two, it's just so cool sounding because they make cool stuff.

And so I thought, well, if I start making cooler things. things and I go by my Korean name, maybe that'll help like offset the stigma of these, you know, Korean three-syllable names in Western culture. So I was writing on the show called Tuka and Bertie at the time. I went to Lisa Hanelwald, the showrunner, and I asked her, like, hey, I know it's probably an ordeal because you already have the credits set, but like, can I go by Li Sung Jin? And she very graciously, like, heard me out. And I think they went through like a lot of trouble to change my credits in that show. and then it kind of just stuck from there.

What is the advice that you have for the young, you know, Asian American who's trying to put their own perimeter on the world and establish themselves in whatever career it is? You know, who's dealing with that kind of identity situation? From my observation, and again, don't like broad strokes, but just in my experience, I've found, with this next generation, there is that pendulum thing happening here as well, where in response to before, a lot of Asian American filmmakers are leading with identity. You know, I get so many younger writers

when I go to like a panel or something being like, you know, I wrote my life story because, you know, I want to like, I'm proud of my identity, but like no one's into it. Like, you know, what can I do? Like, is it, is it the system? Is it this?

Is it that? And I'm like, look, that's awesome that, like, you, there's so much in your life that you want to tap into. But it can't just be identity, you know? Like, you have to also think about craft. Like, you have to get, like, really good at music theory before you, you know, are a studio musician. And I think right now, like, a lot of. of younger generation and not all, but some are like, well, you know, like, okay, I see that in the past. We didn't get to express our identity. So I want to just express my identity and go hard at

that without thinking about, okay, how do I, what vessel do I put that in? Like, it still has to be entertaining, you know, there still has to be rises and falls in a shape. And when you ask, when you kind of pointedly ask, like, do you know about like three-act structure? Do you know about, like, hero's journey and a lot of them don't. It's like well okay like instead of worrying about you know where's the tide turning at the network side worry about what you can control which is your craft and so I think that that's it's the balance you know the middle middle ground of of having a strong sense of identity in your work but also not forgetting that this is also a craft based occupation. There's no end run around the work part of it yeah yeah and

And the idea that just because something feels important to you, it doesn't mean that it's worthy of becoming broadly entertaining to other people. Yeah. I mean, that's why season one, like, it wasn't just a show about Asian Americans. It was within the vessel of road rage, something that universally everyone has done. So it's just, you know, you do have to kind of find ways to hide the kale in the smoothie, so to speak. Is there going to be a season three? You know, every season, much like I did with Thunderbolt, it's like I'm like, that's it. I'm done. I think that's just like me processing. But right now at the moment, I feel like I'm done. But, you know, if something, inspiration strikes, like, sure, like, I can dust off beef. But, you know, in the moment, like, I am focused on X-Men.

It's such an important project. And there's a couple other ideas. developing under my overall deal. But I never say never. I don't know what tomorrow will bring. In the meantime, you've got the Emmys coming up. I hope you win all 16, or the show wins all 16. Should be 17.

Kaylee's painting. I know, crazy. Honestly, should be 18. Finneas, too. Finius. Oh, my gosh. We didn't even talk about him and how much the score informs the character works and the narrative. he did an incredible job.

I think he's... And it just meets the moment perfectly. He's such a brilliant composer. I only want to work with him going forward. And I think it is... I was shocked that him and Kaylee did not get nominated. But, you know, it's... It is what it is.

And I think the work speaks for itself. Like, both her and his score, like, is something that I think will be timeless. It seemed like you really liked working with you. I love the podcast that you. do with the show. There's a lot of like television show companion podcast. Most of them are terrible. Yours is really good. Like you're a natural at this. It feels like, you know, everyone that comes on is like wanting to be there and the stories are fantastic. So, you know, for anyone who has enjoyed

beef, you have the opportunity to do that deep dive. If you haven't checked out beef, you're probably not still listening because you won't even know what we were talking about, but you should go watch it as soon as possible. And this was a delight, man. Likewise. Thank you so much. I'm such a fan. And I just think, you know, you're just operating at an entirely different level, like

mad respect. And I just enjoy it. And I can go back and watch it and find more things. And the richness of it, you know, is really special. Oh, thank you so much. Thank you. So come back and talk to me again. And if you ever want to screen anything here.

Oh, absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. It would be really fun to do a Q&A or something like that with you. Oh, yeah. I would love that. Cool. Let's do it.

All right. Thank you. Thank you. Peace.