The Rich Roll Podcast - Let Them Theory: Mel Robbins On Reclaiming Your Power, Finding Freedom In Letting Go & The Simple Tool That's Transforming Millions of Lives

Episode Date: April 7, 2025

Mel Robbins is a celebrated podcast host, #1 New York Times bestselling author, and one of the most sought-after experts in mindset and behavior change.   This conversation explores the paradox at the heart of human suffering—that we exhaust ourselves trying to control the uncontrollable. Mel’s counterintuitive “Let Them Theory” offers a deceptively simple yet profound antidote to this universal struggle, challenging us to disabuse ourselves of the illusion of control and redirect our energy toward what truly matters.   She deftly unpacks how relinquishing the compulsion to manage others ultimately grants us the equanimity we’ve all been seeking.   Mel is a beacon—and this conversation is a path to personal liberation. Enjoy! Show notes + MORE Watch on YouTube Newsletter Sign-Up Today’s Sponsors: Bon Charge: Get 15% OFF all my favorite wellness products w/ code RICHROLL 👉 boncharge.com                                                                                                                           Squarespace: Use the code RichRoll to save 10% off your first purchase of a website or domain 👉Squarespace.com/RichRoll                                                                                                       Airbnb: Your home might be worth more than you think. Find out how much at 👉 airbnb.com/host  AG1: Get a FREE bottle of Vitamin D3+K2 AND 5 free AG1 Travel Packs 👉www.drinkAG1.com/richroll            Go Brewing: Use the code Rich Roll for 15% OFF 👉gobrewing.com           Check out all of the amazing discounts from our Sponsors 👉 richroll.com/sponsors   Find out more about Voicing Change Media at voicingchange.media and follow us @voicingchange

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It's not fucking obvious to me. If you shift your energy and you bring in the let them theory, your energy is so powerful, you shift the whole dynamic. We're all out there trying to control other people, the trajectory of our lives, the external world. As a result, everything that we're trying to control ends up actually controlling us. And this is really what we're trying to control ends up actually controlling us. And this is really what we're gonna talk about today

with your friend and mine, the great Mel Robbins. Today returning for her third appearance, Mel is the host of the stratospherically popular, award-winning Mel Robbins podcast and one of the world's most sought after experts when it comes to mindset and behavior change. The more control you give up, the more control you gain. The more you let other people live their life,

the better your life gets. The more you let people be who they are and who they're not, the better your relationships are. The things out there, that's not where your power is. Your power is how you respond to it. Mel's got this new book out, it's called The Let Them Theory, and this book has just absolutely exploded. Paying attention to Mel for many, many years,

she has this capacity to take complex psychological insights and ancient wisdom and then translate into very practical tools that help people in a very real and meaningful way. The other thing that makes Mel special is just this empathy for the human condition and her ability to meet people where they're at. It's an exploration of these two words,

let them and how they can free us from this exhausting cycle of trying to manage everyone around us. And instead help us find more peace than we ever thought possible. The world is designed, Rich, to steal your attention, your joy, your energy, your time. People make money on it.

That's why they want it. You can't take control of your life until you stop trying to control everyone and everything around you. Mel, you're back. It's so nice to see you. Thanks for doing this. Of course.

When are you coming to Boston? I need you on my podcast. This weekend. Okay, let's go. We'll make it happen. Please. You've been very kind and continuing to offer that up. You mean stalking you and begging you

and trying to drag you to Boston? Going to Boston. I understand. But I do wanna do it and I appreciate the offer. Well, we're here, really glad to have you here. And you've been on quite the rocket ship lately, like no stone unturned. I mean, Oprah, like it's wild.

That was- Selling a bazillion books and appearing on every media outlet possible. Like it really has been a roller coaster ride. I'm so proud of you and it's been really cool to see. And I know how many years I've gone into you creating something meaningful that would put you in the position to kind of,

be doing what you're doing right now. Well, it's been a really interesting experience on so many levels because, I mean, you and I were just trying to figure out, we've known each other eight or nine years. We've been very good friends. We're on a text chain. We support each other a lot, especially behind the scenes,

cheer for each other, share ideas and things that are working, things that are not working. And so we both know how hard we've been working. And I have never ever had like a press moment. I mean, I've been largely ignored, I would say, by the media. And I think that's because I'm not in the slipstream of interviewing celebrities.

I don't consider myself to be somebody that is famous. I just consider myself to be a normal person that has a podcast and writes books. And when I'm not doing that, I'm spending time with my family and I'm out hiking in the woods. And so I've never received a major piece of press until about four months ago.

So what do you make of that? What was the connect that suddenly happened? Well, you know, there were a couple things that happened. I think that number one, having hosted the podcast for 18 months and that podcast, literally, I mean, we've been in the top 20 podcasts in the world since I launched.

It's insane. I remember when you called me and you said, like, I'm finally gonna do this podcast thing. And then the light speed at which you just kind of went right to the top of the charts immediately, I was like, oh my God, it's incredible. I didn't expect that. It's so hard to launch new shows right now.

It doesn't matter how much name recognition you have or how many people follow you on social media platforms. Like it's really hard. No kidding. And I had heard you talk about how many people follow you on social media platforms, like it's really hard. No kidding. And I had heard you talk about how hard it is. And so when I entered the podcast space, I absolutely had zero like kind of, okay, we're gonna step in here and dominate.

Cause I know that just because you follow somebody online or you've read a book or you've listened to an audio book doesn't mean you're gonna listen to their podcast or even know that they have one. And so I assumed it would take two or three years to even break into the top 100 and get that like, okay, we're in the top 100 once. And so when we launched and it out of the gate

was this dominant force, and we have never literally not been in the top 20 in the world, I just couldn't understand, well, why does nobody write about this? Why is everybody else getting press? And then I started to, as the show was taking off and it's grown exponentially for one reason, shares. That's why the podcast has grown, shares.

Like word of mouth shares. Oh no, literally listen to this episode because I don't think people think about what it actually takes to listen to a podcast episode. So there's a ton of things that people do to pass the time. And whether you're scrolling on your phone or you've got YouTube on kind of in the background or you're listening to music and the playlists are loading,

there's lots of ways to bump into content. You do not bump into a podcast episode. No, it's a very different thing. First of all, you're asking people to devote, you know, a lot of time on a total unknown situation. We're more than happy to take a flyer on a YouTube video that pops up after one we've just watched or what's suggested next,

but discoverability is a problem in podcasting that has yet to be solved. And despite the fact that the space as a whole is growing rapidly and more and more people are listening to podcasts than ever before. There's something about podcasts where people lock into the shows that they listen to.

And it's very difficult to get somebody to like try something new or something outside of what they're already kind of accustomed to listening to. Yes, yes. And so when I think about the fact that there's a human being somewhere around the world that has no time, and yet they are finding and making the time to hit play, that is an intentional act that I take very seriously,

and I know you do too. And I also think about the fact that, you know, my whole premise for launching the podcast was, I want this to feel like a walk with a friend. And by that, I mean I want the person who has made the time to hit play, to have the experience that I have. Like when you and I go for a walk, Rich, I immediately feel better.

It could be the world's worst weather. It doesn't matter. You and I are shoulder to shoulder. We are chatting up a storm. You're sharing things about your family. Your family probably doesn't want me to know. I'm doing the same thing, right? You're sharing a book that you like.

You have maybe dealt with something with a friend or a family member that I'm now dealing with. So you're talking about that experience. It helps me. I always feel better. I always feel like my mood has changed. I always have one thing that I want to dealing with, so you're talking about that experience, it helps me. I always feel better. I always feel like my mood has changed. I always have one thing that I wanna try or do. And I always leave feeling like, oh my gosh, there was somebody that I wish had been on that walk

so that they could have heard the thing that Rich had shared with me. And so that was the premise for starting the show. And what I love about also starting the show in Boston is that it is the world's home for higher education. And so all of the professors at all of the universities, all of the research institutes, the huge amount of just brain power that is in that town,

we have professors that hop on e-bikes after they've taught a class and then come over and talk about their research. They haven't written a book about it. And so giving the, hey, we're going on a walk with a friend. We've got this person who runs the biggest sleep clinic in the world that hasn't written a book, but you can't get in to see for three freaking years, who's going to spend two hours

with us. And it's not going to be you listening in. It's going to be you like really having this experience that the conversation is for you. And so what ended up happening with the show is that people feel that intention. And I truly do constantly think, like there's one person right now,

you either have us while you're taking a run or you're on a walk or you have us on your car or you're listening as you're at work or you're listening as you're folding your laundry. And you have invited Rich and I into your life, and I take that seriously, and I know you do, too. And so when I thought about this show, I thought, how do I create something that makes you feel in a world

where everybody feels disconnected and a little discouraged and very overwhelmed, how do I create something that's worth your time and that at the end of the conversation, you feel a little bit more encouragement? Because I personally feel, I've come to believe, that the single biggest thing that stands in people's way is actually feeling

discouraged. If you don't have the hope that the advice could work for you, you're never going to try it. If you don't think that this one recommendation from an expert or from you, Rich, my friend, as we're talking about some shared experience or something that you've learned in life, you don't think that that's great for Rich, but my situation's so bad, why even bother? All of the advice in the world, all of the information, it means nothing. Because you're missing a key ingredient to be able to take a bet and try something.

And so when I sit down and I think about how we do our episodes, I am always thinking about that premise of a walk with a friend and my job making sure that if you're brand new, you don't have any idea who the lady with the glasses are, and somebody that you care about sent something to you and said, I think you should listen to this. Like we just did a thing about autoimmune diseases and the episode exploded overnight, why?

Because it's a resource. Your show's the same way. I can take this thing and share it with somebody else and it's a surrogate for a conversation I wanna have with you and it's a way for me to empower you because I can't, because I'm related to you and you don't listen to me anyway.

Yeah, I think when I reflect on your journey and why it has connected so deeply with so many people, it's sort of multifactorial to me. On the one hand, there's a white space in terms of really capable women hosts in the podcast space. There's plenty of great female led, you know, hosts and shows out there, but not enough. And when I think about you,

I think about not just relatability, which I think is huge, like your ability to kind of relate to everyone and be the antidote to that discouragement by making people feel like they're seen and heard and valued married with authenticity. You are who you are and that, you know, we're going on a walk.

And I think authenticity now is at an all time premium when there's so much out there and people's antenna around like, what's real? Where am I getting played? Where am I being finessed? And where is this just a performance? I think that's massive. And then subject matter authority,

whether it's you or the guests that you have on. And I love that you're tapping into the academic environment of Boston, because these are people who are doing the real work. They're not on a book tour and doing every other podcast. So there's an exclusivity, I think, to that as well that really works. But the real magic, I think, to that as well that really works. But the real magic, I think,

is that you have this talent and gift for distilling and translating ancient wisdom and current science into incredibly relatable, digestible, and actionable tools that can immediately help people. And as fun as it is to like poke fun at you and make, you know, sort of give you shit about like the five second rule.

Bring on Rich. And like the let them theory is like, seriously? You know, like clearly like these are very effective tools and the antecedents of which date back millennia, you know, and can be found in spiritual texts, you know, as far back as you wanna go. Like these things work, they're real. Now we have science to back them, but you take them

and you're like, well, this is complicated. How do I just crunch this into something that somebody can do immediately and realize a positive impact, like almost instantaneously in their life. And that's a real gift. It's really difficult to like distill something down and communicate it in simple, concise terms

where anybody can get it and use it immediately. Thank you. Thank you. I agree. And it is funny because the thing that I'm gifted at is the very thing that people like roll their eyes at. Seriously, let them, oh my God, this is just stoicism repackaged.

I'm like, there's nothing there. I'm like, well, then you didn't read the book because you didn't see like how deep this thing goes and the various ways that it gets unpacked and all the research that went into this concept and how many ways you can use it. And at the same time, let them, let people say it's simple. Let people say that the things that I talk about are obvious

because here's what I'm gonna say. It's not fucking obvious to me. And it's not obvious to most people because most of us are stressed out and we're doing the best that we can and we're trying to get through the day and we're worried about our kids and we're worried about our parents

and we're worried about paying our bills and we're worried about our parents, and we're worried about paying our bills, and we're worried about the state of the world. And so anything that is complicated or intellectual or has 55 steps to it, I can't even remember the conversation I had last night. So if it's super intellectual, how the hell am I gonna use it in my life? And that's what I've found to be true,

that there's this big disconnect between being able to read a book or talk to a therapist or listen to a podcast or kind of know something is true. Like the idea of letting go. I have known forever that I'm a control freak. I have known that I'm like a dog with a bone gnawing on stuff that isn't worth my time. How do you let it go?

I've never been able to apply it. And so having the idea or the concept just makes you smart. For me in my own life, I've had to figure out, okay, if I know that I shouldn't be trying to control everything, how the hell do I actually stop myself in those stressed out, crazy moments where I know I worked up or I'm trying to control something

that I just need to let go. And I've never been able to do it. And this latest thing that I'm sharing with everybody, the let them theory is the single thing that taught me how to do it. So state your thesis. My thesis? Yeah. Well, the thesis is as old as the history of time.

It's the truth about life. And the truth is simple. The more control you give up, the more control you gain. The more you let other people live their life, the better your life gets. The more you let people be who they are and who they're not, the better your relationships are. That, you know, this is Viktor Frankl, it's Buddhism,

it's Stoicism, it's radical acceptance, it's detachment theory. It is that the things out there, that's not where your power is. Your power is how you respond to it. Now, this is something we've all heard. You've had other people come on and talk about it. Our friend Ryan Holiday, he He is in my opinion like the modern

stoicism torchbearer These are concepts that people have talked about forever. But how Do you apply it? When you live in a moment in time Where the world is designed rich like on purpose designed to steal your attention, your joy, your energy, your time. How do you apply those things? I didn't know. And what I found myself is I found myself like 80% of people in the United States who are living in a state of chronic stress, because we are allowing the things outside of us to drain our time and energy,

and we are giving our power to other people's thoughts and opinions and moods and expectations. And you talk a lot and share very, very openly about your sobriety. And something that a lot of people don't really think about is that you can't actually get sober until you first stop drinking. You can't take control of your life

until you stop trying to control everyone and everything around you. The typical sobriety story is that you try to control your drinking or your using, and you're determined and convinced that your self will will ultimately lead you to a place of recovery. And you have to exhaust that until you get to that place where you're willing to let go, to surrender,

to accept yourself as you are and to not only ask for help, but receive help and actually channel that help into different behaviors and actions. And you can't compel somebody to be willing to do that. Willingness is something that, you know, it's sort of like grace. It descends upon you in the right moment.

But it all goes back to this idea of allowing somebody to have their experience so that they can eventually arrive at that epiphany for themselves. It cannot be compelled in another person. But I'm somebody who is steeped in kind of the vernacular of recovery and these ideas of like letting go and excited. They're all very familiar to me. And I'm curious around like the choice of phrasing,

like let them versus acceptance or surrender or allowing or get out of the way. Like, why is it that you chose to kind of capture this in this, you know, two word phrase, let them, because I have a lot of thoughts about this. You're a genius. Nobody has asked me this question. And it is probably the most astute and smartest question

that will help us drill down into the power of this theory. And the theory, you know, in case you haven't bumped into this is very simple. Anytime you feel annoyed or stressed out or hurt or worried or bothered by or worked up about something going on, you just say the two words, let them. And when you say those two words, let them, you're going to immediately feel this kind of drop in your shoulders and then you're going to feel this release and detachment and you also feel,

and this is what we're going to drill into, this sense of superiority. Because when you say, let them, whether it's let them do construction on a Monday morning and back up traffic, let them not staff the grocery store properly and force me to stand in this line here, let my mother be in a bad mood, let them not give me that business deal.

Let AI take over the world. When you say let them, you are recognizing that I can't control this. It's already happening. And so I'm kind of gonna allow it without allowing it because I see what's happening. And so the let them part is super important. We'll get to the second step of the theory,

which is saying let me, but let's just stay on the first part. So the thing is about this, and this is why it works. I think the sense of superiority is actually why it works. Because when your friends go away for the weekend and they don't invite you, of course it's gonna hurt your feelings. It's a sign that you're mentally well

if you feel disappointed and a little sad if you're not included in something. That doesn't mean something's wrong. It means like, oh, you're mentally well if you feel disappointed and a little sad if you're not included in something. That doesn't mean something's wrong. It means like, oh, you're a human being. But what we typically do in those moments when we feel hurt or worried because we have this fundamental need for control is that if your behavior rich pisses me off

or makes me worried, you now make me feel out of control. But the problem is in order for me to feel in control or safe again, I then cross a line and I then try to control you. Oh, you should have invited me, you're a dick. Why didn't you do this to me? And then you either aim this angst at the other person or you aim it back at yourself.

I'm a loser, I have no friends, my friends are jerks. And then you start to feel terrible because of other people's behavior. In saying those two words, let them, you are doing so many things at once. First of all, you're recognizing what's happening. It's already happened. I'm gonna let them go on the golf trip. It's already happened.

So that's the radical acceptance. When you say let them, you also are detaching because you're basically saying, people are allowed to go away. People are allowed to do things without me, let them. But this is why I think so many people get this tattooed on them. Because when you say, let them,

it kind of rhymes with fuck them. And you then start to kind of do one of these, like, let my mom be disappointed. Let my boss do that thing. Let the government do what they're doing. And so you get into this mode that we like, where you get kind of judgy, and you sort of take a step back. And it's powerful when traffic is pissing you off. It's powerful to say, let them when somebody walks out

the door and you had hoped for a commitment. And it helps you through the superiority to actually rise above your own emotions. I think that's why it works. That's why people love it. That's why you feel powerful and free. Because you're saying, I'm allowing this, I see this, and this is not worth my time and energy

to actually worry about because I can't control it. So I'm allowing this, I see this, and this is not worth my time and energy to actually worry about because I can't control it, so I'm not going to try to. But it's the superiority piece that actually gives people the sense of power that we so desperately want to feel because for our entire lives, or at least me anyway, I gave all my power to what are they going to think and how are they feeling and navigating all of my decisions based on are they gonna be mad at me? Are they gonna be disappointed in me? You know, like all of it. And so that's why I think those two words are so powerful.

It can't be any other words. Sure, it's so interesting to hear you say that because I bristle a little bit at what you're saying because to me, it feels like on some level, it's playing into the illusion of control to give people a sense of agency over something that they have no control or power over. But doing it in this weird way

where you're acknowledging your lack of control and powerlessness, but then at the same time instilling you with this sort of muscular aggressive arrogance about the whole thing. So to say like, let it go, there's sort of a humility to that. Whereas let them is like,

it presumes that your irritation is valid and justified and that you're the bigger, better person who being magnanimous and granting them the permission to be who they are, right? Yes. Which it's like very, very interesting because part of like acknowledging your lack of control is to disabuse yourself of the self obsession

that is driving it in the first place. And is this not- I don't even know what the hell that sentence means. What do you mean disabuse obsession? What is that? So in other words, like, it's somewhat egocentric and narcissistic, is it not, to say, well, I'm gonna let them

because I'm so all powerful and poor other people who don't see the world as clearly as I do, and clearly I'm right. Like it's validating your irritation. Well, why shouldn't your irritation be valid? You're feeling it. But I guess from a recovery perspective, like letting it go is about introspection.

It's like, what's my side of the street here? Have I engaged in any behaviors that contributed to this other person behaving the way that they're behaving that I can look at and maybe rectify? And where is my ego getting inflamed around like how this other person is behaving that I need to keep in check? Because I know I can't control that other person,

all I can control, this gets into the second part that we're gonna get into is like how I comport myself. Right? See, already, that's too intellectual for me. Like I would not- I know, but this is the truth. Like- But you have to see, but see, I can't let anything go,

and I'm gonna tell you why. All right, but hold on, so- Because I think it's different. There's a smugness to it, right? Of course, yes. And so, how does that play out? Well, here's how it plays out. First, I wanna address the letting go.

I haven't been able to let something go and I'll tell you why. Because when my friends go away without me and it hurts my feelings, right? And I say, I have to just let it go. I feel powerless. I feel like this thing happened and now I, and it hurt me or I'm hurt because of it

or I'm reacting the way, whether I have the right to or not Whether it is Fair to like have those feelings or not We could debate all day long feelings or feelings or chemical explosions You got no control over the emotions that come up and so when I have to say to myself just let it go Like your dad's disappointed. Just let it go Mel. What I feel is I'm admitting defeat. I feel like I have no power and no choice, but to just, it is what it is.

And to me, that feels even more defeating. And to have to go through this process of then analyzing everything, I'm already up in my head and in my emotions. And so when I say let them, I feel like I'm now taking power back because I'm operating consistently with the most fundamental law about human nature, which is that there's only three things you can control in life. Only three. You can control what you think about something, you can control what you do or don't do, and you can control how you respond to the feelings that are rising up. That's it. Those are the only three things that you have in your control.

And so there's something about the smugness because I think there's a presumption on your part that the average person in a situation that either hurts you or that makes you worried or that is stressing you out or that is overwhelming you, that the average person can actually pull together the intellectual energy to unpack the whole thing while they're actually in a stressed out or hurt state. And I can't do that. And so there's something about saying, let them,

that is like a sledgehammer to my nervous system. It's almost like me saying to myself, Mel, there are things in life that you can control and there are things that are not. Any psychologist will tell you, when you put energy into something you can't control, like other people and what they're doing or what they're thinking and feeling, Any psychologist will tell you, when you put energy into something you can't control, like other people and what they're doing

or what they're thinking and feeling, it's only gonna stress you out. And so when I say let them, it's like this slap across the face where I'm giving myself this reality check that now let them. And if it's smugness that helps me detach so that I can then say the second part

and refocus on what control I have, I'll take it. Because otherwise I'm sitting in stress, pissed off about the traffic, or I am demoralized because I'm single and everybody that I continue to date is treating me in ways that makes me feel bad and I'm up in my head going, should I let it go or are they just this

and am I being too clingy? No, let them show you who they are. Let them ghost you, let them text you and not ask you out on a date. Let them reveal who they are and where you stand in their life based on their behavior. Let them, let them, let them. Because if you wanna take responsibility for your life,

you have to detach from what other people are doing. And you have to stop trying to control and change other people. And you gotta pull that energy back so that you can focus on what you can control in life, which is what you think, what you do or don't do, and what you do with your feelings. That's it, that's all you got.

And that's the let me part. And so I will take smugness if it gets me out of a stress response. I will take superiority if it helps me pull myself out of this swirl of insecurity because I've been dating people that treat me like garbage. I'll take that because I need to stop giving power to other people's behavior and to their opinions

and to their moods and to their immaturity and to their expectations. And I gotta pull that power and that time and energy back so that I can actually focus on the things that are within my control. And I said, you know, this is about taking responsibility for your life. And if you look at the word responsibility,

it's the ability to respond. So I just got back from South by Southwest, which is this incredible conference held in Austin every year, where I had the privilege of sharing the stage with my friend, Baratunde Thurston for this panel on the art of interviewing and why long form conversation still matters in our bite-sized content world. And it was super fun. And Austin, of course, is just great. One of my favorite places to visit, the food, the people, the energy,

Barton Creek, Town Lake, I love it there. But this time I didn't stay in a hotel like I've done in the past. I stayed in an Airbnb, this fantastic house that I shared with members of the voicing change team, which made such a huge difference in the whole experience, allowing us to connect better, share our experiences and really deepen the richness of the conference

in this beautiful, more communal setting, rather than all being separated in boxy nondescript rooms. And all of this left me thinking about how our living spaces can serve multiple purposes, especially when we travel, and how Airbnb is this very cool and practical way to share your space when it makes sense for your situation. The extra income from hosting can actually help fund

these enriching experiences, which feels like a pretty smart way to think about it. Your home might be worth more than you think. Find out how much at airbnb.com slash host. Ah, spring. Spring is in the air. The days are getting longer with that light lingering ever so longer every single day into the evenings. I gotta say my outdoor training, my trail time,

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over other people. But if you're saying, let them with a degree of smugness, you're still allowing your emotional state to be controlled by them because your smugness is directly related to their behavior. And if you're weaponizing, let them, you know, from some place of like, well, let them go do it and they'll find out, like, fuck around and find out.

I'm like, I'm over here and I'm just waiting. You know, you're still captured by what those other people are doing, right? The real goal, like the end point of this is to be in those situations and inhabit like total neutrality. Well, you can't get there until you detach from your emotions.

Sure. And so if you are feeling injured or smug or judgy, you already feel that way. And if let them just amplifies that because it helps you get out of putting it all over there, then I'm down for it. But it is dangerous to only say let them, because what you will find if all you do

is cross your arms and say, well, let them do this and let them do that and let them do the other thing, is you'll sit in the superiority. And if you are trying to use this theory and it's not working, I got news for you. It's because you're actually not saying, let me, let me remind myself that in any situation, whether it's because, you know, we just got this interesting thing from somebody,

every single day I have somebody on the team look across all of social media, and we screenshot all kinds of public comments and reviews, and then it's a roundup that gets sent to our entire team every day of the impact of the podcast episodes, the social, the books, all of it, so that you can see in real time individuals around the world what they're saying

and how the thing has helped specifically. And so there was a guy that wrote to us that this was just yesterday, and I can show it to you, who said, you know, I cannot thank you enough for the let them theory because I am getting married to my boyfriend and my father is like deeply Irish Catholic and he disapproves and he wrote me this long letter.

And in the past, I would have erupted in anger and smugness and I probably would have cut him out of my life. And he said, thanks to the let them theory, I said, let him, let him believe what he believes. Let him be who he is. My dad's lived experience is his lived experience. He is allowed to feel how he feels.

He's allowed to have the opinions that he has. He's allowed to have his vision for his life and to be disappointed that it doesn't match up. So I need to let him. And he said, saying it created space between what my father wrote, which in the past would have like just split my heart into. And it gave me this space

where two things can be true at once. You can have somebody say things that are hurtful and even bigoted, and you can know deep down, they're still trying to figure out how to love you. And you can understand that somebody has very offensive opinions and you are still deep down trying to figure out how to love them. And when he said, let him, it created space to give his father the grace of having his own experience and his own opinions and not making it your job

to take it all on. And he said, within two days, I had the peace to basically be able to write him and say, dad, I love you. We do not see this the same way. My relationship with God is good. And we are still getting married and I hope you will come. And so that's the let me part.

Let me decide how to respond to people in a way that's aligned with my values without actually feeling the need to change them. Because what's interesting, we've all experienced this, is that anybody that tries to get you to change your mind or to push you to do something, or who's worried about you, or is constantly giving you suggestions, we do this with our adult kids a lot, right?

We think we're motivating, we think we're caring, we think we're loving. None of this actually creates motivation to change. In fact, it does the opposite. It creates resistance to changing. Because my worry and my opinion and my pushing you and my like helpful suggestions that maybe you should study a little more and get off the Xbox

if you wanna do better in school, as if your kid who's struggling in school hasn't fricking thought of that, that doesn't actually motivate anybody. It actually pushes them to push back because you're pushing up against their need to control themselves. People change when they're ready to do the work to change

and not a second before. And so this example, Rich, if it organized smugness in this dude to be like, let him, let him be a bigoted asshole who does not support me in living my life and being the person that I am and loving who I choose to love, let him. If smugness is what's required to take a step back

and not react, so that you can then collect yourself and go, well, let me choose how I'm gonna respond to this. And in controlling the response, you can act with compassion and grace. And by creating space, now what you've done with the human being based on all the neuroscience, all the experts that have been on your show and my show will tell you, when you create that space

for somebody to come to their own conclusions and you keep showing up aligned with your values, a funny thing happens. People start to move toward you because you've given them the space to. And that's what this is about. That's what this is about. And you know, when you're dealing with people that are very challenging, whether they have a narcissistic personality style or you're in a relationship with somebody who's treating

you poorly, let them isn't about allowing people to walk all over you. They're already doing it. They're already doing it. So the let me piece is the personal responsibility piece. This is your opportunity to make a conscious decision about how you're gonna respond. What is the boundary you're going to establish? Are you going to stay in this friendship

or is it better to walk away? Like there's an agency to that. 100% and I'm reminding you of it. And the other thing about let them that's really important is that when you say let them, you're forcing yourself to see somebody as they are and as they aren't probably for the first time in your life. Because one of the most kind of, I think,

self-destructive things that we do to ourselves is people in our lives, people's behavior tells you the truth. Stop watching what people say and watch their actions. Their behavior tells you how they feel about you, whether or not you're a priority. And what we do to ourselves that is self-destructive is we go up into our heads

and we live in the potential and the fantasy versus actually being able to live in the reality of who you're dealing with. So when you say let them, and you're talking about your narcissistic personality style and your mom, let her be who she is because she's not changing. And what's torturing you is your hope she will.

But what you've missed this entire time is you brace and you wish and you hope is that if you wanna change the relationship with your mom, she's not changing it, you are. So when you say let her, let her be who she is, let her triangulate, let her roll her eyes, let her make it all about her, let her never ask me a question, let her always be in a pissy mood, whatever it may be.

Now you know who you're dealing with. And then you say, let me decide what I'm gonna put my time and energy into. How much time, how much energy? Because let me remind myself, I can leave any conversation, any dining room table, any text chain, any relationship, any interview, any date, any anytime I choose to.

And so saying let them actually forces you to accept people as they are instead of gaslighting yourself. Yeah, all of this is rooted in this deep desire that we all have to control the world, right? Or this illusion that we have that capacity. And it drives this, you know, obsession that so many of us have

with what other people are thinking, what they're doing, how they're reacting. And the self-obsession piece plays into this because basically, you know, part of the illusion is that you think, you know, everybody's thinking about you, they're talking about you behind your back and every kind of interaction that you have that isn't so great is about something you must have done.

Like it's all self-centered, right? What have you learned or discovered about this kind of self-obsession that we have and this deep rooted desire to kind of self-obsession that we have and this deep rooted desire, you know, to kind of be in control or to get the world to kind of conform to our idea of what it should be. Well, I have two things to say about this. One, you're never gonna get rid

of this fundamental need for control. It's part of the hard wiring. And understanding that everybody has it will also make you understand why the way that you've been dealing with relationships and the world at large is backfiring. And so there's a huge difference between seeking control and actual power. And here's the headline that I've discovered by saying, let them and let me now for two

years straight. It's this. If you feel overwhelmed or tired or stressed out or lonely, or you are not achieving the things that you want to achieve or you're not as happy as you want to be, the problem isn't you. The problem is the power that you're giving to other people, to their thoughts, to their emotions,

to their expectations, to their moods. And you don't have to live like that. Your time and energy is the single most valuable resource you have in your life. How you spend your time, what you pour your energy into, it is what your life is. And what I discovered by saying let them and let me and understanding the difference between control

and true power is that I was controlling the wrong thing. I had life reversed. See, I thought I'd be happy if you liked me, Rich. I thought that if I navigated my life based on my kid's moods or my husband's moods or my parents' expectations, that was the way that I would feel more in control. But here's the joke that we all need to stop,

like to accept and like kind of laugh at ourselves and then change how we live our lives. There's one thing you'll never be able to control, and that's another person. And yet we've organized our entire lives around ensuring that other people are happy or that they think a certain thing or they're in a good mood or that you've met their expectations. And here's what I've learned. When you actually stop giving your power to other people's opinions and to their moods and to their expectations of you, and you take the power back and you say,

well, let me focus on what I think about myself. Let me focus on what my values are and what my intention is, and let me act in a way that is aligned with that as best as I can, and let me act in a way that is aligned with that as best as I can. And let me actually learn how to respond to my own emotions like a fucking adult. Instead of vent texting at everybody or pouting in the corner or gossiping or bitching or taking it out on other people,

let me be the mature adult here and let me work on this. When you actually put your time and energy there, a funny thing happens. All the other stuff takes care of itself. Oh my God, Rich, like when you're proud of yourself, you actually don't think much about what other people think. When you are kind of focused every day on just doing little things that make you proud of yourself

or that are aligned with the things that you care about, you're not worried about what other people's expectations are, if you screw up and hurt somebody's feelings, with the things that you care about, you're not worried about what other people's expectations are. If you screw up and hurt somebody's feelings, it's not like World War III is broken out. You literally just know your intentions so you can take responsibility for the impact it had and apologize and move on.

Like it doesn't become this noose around your neck. And you don't feel this sense that you're responsible for everybody in your life. Like even last night, yesterday we had a really long day and my daughter and I worked together and we were having dinner and I kind of snapped at her. And then we got into this little thing and we were all sitting in a booth and somebody said on this side of the booth, just let her be upset with you. What a beautiful thing.

Just let my adult daughter have a moment where she's annoyed with me. Why do I have to fix this? I don't. She is allowed to have feelings. She's allowed to be disappointed. She's allowed to be pissed off at me. And if I give her the space to have those feelings, then I'm actually recognizing the power that she has

to process her own experience in life. And it immediately starts to disappear. It's unbelievable how we have taken on the responsibility of the world and in doing so, we've not only burdened ourselves and robbed ourselves of time and energy, but we've also robbed other people in our lives, our children, our partners, our parents,

from the experience of actually facing life and feeling what they need to feel and understanding that, wow, like nobody needs to step in and rescue somebody, stand by their side and support them. But I also can see that I would rush in and try to solve everything for my kids, which only made their anxiety worse when they were little. Because every time I stepped in

and I wouldn't let them struggle, or I wouldn't let them have the uncomfortable feeling, when I step in and just try to take it away, I'm actually communicating. I don't actually believe you can handle this. Which makes it worse. Of course. This was a difficult lesson for you to learn.

How can you tell? We've known each other a long time. You're like my husband. You guys are like chill. Well, one thing that we share is the difference in what our kind of areas of the bathroom look like. Like I'm like your husband, like very organized. Everything is very like, you know,

everything is like to an OCD level. And you know, my wife's like an explosion. It's just all over the place. And this is like an ongoing thing, like that, you know, challenges my acceptance, you know, all of that's right. You can't let it go. So you got a letter, dude. Listen, we've been together 25,

I made peace with that a long time ago. Like, yeah, I let her, I let her. And then I control my little environment. I just don't want it encroached on. We do that though, you know? I know, it has, yeah, the chaos has a tendency to metastasize. But the interesting thing is,

we're also both like former lawyers. And there's something about going to law school and learning how to craft an argument, learning how to prosecute a case or defend your position that gives you a sense of empowerment over other people. Like, oh, like if I just get this argument perfect, then I can control the reaction of other people. Your entire career is based on this, right?

And your skill at being able to do that. And so there's like an unwiring that you have to do to kind of have a whole different philosophy because you can certainly influence people. That's different from controlling them. But if you're trained in the art of argument, of course you're gonna believe that you have this superpower to get people to do what you want them to do.

Well, I'll tell you, you said it was a hard lesson. It's interesting that you said that because I think it was a hard life and the let them theory is an easy lesson because I was working against the laws of human nature. I was pushing against- You're rowing up river. Correct.

And so one of the reasons why this thing has exploded is number one, it doesn't exist in a vacuum. It exists in a huge legacy of ancient wisdom and therapeutic modalities. And when you say let them and let me, it feels familiar to you. It's something that you know is true because this kind of struggle that we have between control and true power and what we can control and what we have between control and true power and what we can control and what we can't control and our desire to change other people, we've

been all struggling with this since the beginning of time. We all have somebody in our life that we're worried about, that we just wish would take better care of themselves. We wish that they would study harder. We wish that they would date people that would actually treat them better. And all of this worry and concern and suggestions and all this stuff, it's not actually motivating the other person's desire to change. In fact, what I've learned the hard way

until I learned the let them theory is I was actually creating resistance to the change because I was trying, I know better. I'm doing it out of love and loving people and wanting the best for people isn't the issue. That's a beautiful thing. How you're going about it is what was backfiring for most of us.

Sure, it's exhausting. Yes. Right? Yes. I'm the only thing that's keeping this whole thing together. Yes. And if I don't like exert myself in all these different ways, it's all gonna collapse.

So this compulsion around control is really a mask for fear, right? The fear of what might happen if I don't show up and say all these things and do all these things, it's all gonna fall apart. Fundamentally, everybody's gonna die a tragic death. Like, you'll just future trip on all the catastrophes that are going to occur.

And in the process, you're exhausting yourself, you're stressed out. And so let them is like this catharsis that relieves the stress and helps you to realize like you're not only are you not in control, like you're incapable of control. And there's like a fear of like, well, if I let go and I let them,

like you have to like cross that bridge and have an experience where you did it and everything actually ended up better than it would have been to like, oh, I see now. And now I feel like I can invest in this a little bit. See, I think it's a redirection. I'm not saying you're not in control. Tell me more what that means.

Well, I'm not saying you're not in control. I'm saying you're trying to control the wrong thing. So you can't ever get rid of the need for control because it's a hardwired survival instinct. I need to feel in control of my decisions, what I'm going to eat, my future. It gives me this sense of safety. But in seeking that sense of safety,

which we all deserve in life, you have to understand what's actually within your control. And every one of us knee jerks and goes out there. And so like a question I've been getting a lot is about the current state of the world. Like regardless of where you're living, you're probably feeling this sense of what the hell is happening.

The headlines are making everybody terrified, like the rise of AI and the concern about jobs, the economy, like everything is in complete disarray. Again, the world is engineered to steal your time, your energy, your focus, your joy. People make money on it. That's why they want it. And so the illusion is that you have no power.

And what I'm here to say is stop looking out there, because if you don't like what's happening, don't you dare get gaslit into thinking you have no power. Because you need the time and energy that you're spending doom scrolling and looking at the headlines and gossiping with friends and feeling all worried to freaking call the attorney general and to get involved in your community.

And the more time that you waste out there, gossiping about crap or worrying about stuff or feeling helpless, you're not helpless. But you're gonna feel helpless if all you do is give your power to the things outside of you. You gotta go let them because the press conference has already happened. Shit's already spending sideways. AI is already here.

And then I gotta let me remind myself that I actually do have power. There are things I can do. And one of the things I need to do is protect myself from draining my energy by doom scrolling for six hours because I need to actually redirect it and focus it on what I can control. You still have to be detached

from the outcome of those actions. You call the attorney general, you have no control over what that is going to reap, right? Like you can't be like, well, I'll call him and then this has to happen or I'm never gonna make that call again. You make the call, you move on. Yes, you make it again if you want.

Here's one for you. Tell me, let's go Rich. When you look back, when you kind of reflect back on, you know, the arc of your career, you're in this incredible place right now. How do you make sense of that? And I guess what I'm getting at here is, do you feel like there's a destiny aspect to this

or a fate? Because I know you well enough to know that you worked very hard to earn all of the things and the kind of privileged place that you now occupy, but you're also humble enough to know that it wasn't just because you busted your ass, like there's something more going on. And so I wanna get to like a deeper place,

a more spiritual place of all of this, because I think from my recovery perspective, part of the letting go and the surrender is like allowing for the mystical and the magical, like you turn it over to a higher power that has your best interest at heart and can do things that you can't, like that is part of what the surrender is.

Yes, you take responsibility for your own actions and you have power over how you comport yourself and your behavior, et cetera. But on some level, there's a humbling, like a humility to all of it to say, I am not the center of the universe. Not only am I letting go of trying to control other people, on some level I'm also relinquishing control

over like the greater arc of my life. I show up for it, I do the things, I work hard, and then I let go of the results and I allow myself to be guided and I make myself open and available to what I can't even conjure or imagine right now. Because if you're holding on like, I'm Mel Robbins and I'm gonna do this podcast

and this book and here's where it's gonna take me like you're back to square one with the whole thing. Yeah, no, I don't think about it at all like that. Like I think there's a very simple explanation for the arc and the arc that you're talking about is that, I mean, all of a sudden we've unseated joe rogan And for three weeks straight we've been the number one podcast in the world at the same time that we're number one on amazon Number one on audible number one on every book list. It's one of the single most successful

Uh non-fiction book launches in history And why is this happening? Why are people at this moment in time? excited And why is this happening? Why are people at this moment in time excited about a book and a idea that could help them? I'll tell you why. It's because when the world is very dark, like I just think, you just have to like be a person that glows in the dark.

And I see the things that I'm doing you just have to like be a person that glows in the dark. And I see the things that I'm doing right now, the image that comes to mind is like being a lighthouse and casting out a light into the darkness. And I do think there's something way bigger happening and I'm just a part of it. And it's why I keep saying that this idea, it's not a new idea. It's something that we know is true.

It has roots in the most ancient wisdoms and spiritual teachings that have given people comfort and given people encouragement and empowered them since the beginning of time. And I think the world needs to be reminded of this right now that no matter how dark things get, there is light inside of you and there is power inside of you. And there's that beautiful Professor Margaret Mead quote about how, you know, don't ever

doubt your ability to change history because it's only been a few committed citizens who ever have. I've got it wrong, but that's the gist of it. And so I feel this sense, this vibrational energy, that this is just part of a bigger thing that is happening. That when there is such public overwhelm and disinformation and fear and chaos and just stress that is very real for people, there has to be a corresponding message of hope

and light and empowerment. There just has to. And so I feel that I keep having this image of, being on a plane and the plane is going 500 miles an hour and I'm way up in the air. And I feel just the currents of change with me. And I feel tons of allies and ancestors like you, and people that throughout history

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You're like this channel that has been chosen to deliver this message. Yes. You know, that's how I look at it. Like you're bad-ass, but there is something more going on. And, you know, what you have to share coincides with a very particular moment in which it's most needed.

And whether you had a conscious awareness of that or it's something deeper, like you're the person for right now in so many different ways, but in ways that you couldn't have choreographed, right? Like you showed up in your life and now you're in this situation. And that's where I'm allowed to kind of like

see this more broadly. Like there's a grander play happening at the moment. That's what Oprah said to me too. And that allows me to like have humility. And I think I can find awe and wonder and all these other kind of like beautiful human experiences in that. But a key piece, I'm gonna go back to recovery speak again.

There's a phrase that goes, you can't transmit something you haven't got. So you can be a pretender to the throne and use all the words and tell people what they should and shouldn't do. And this is what this says, et cetera. But if you're not walking that talk yourself, if you don't fully inhabit that and kind of demonstrate

whatever that ethos is in your own personal life, you are not going to be able to affect people with that message. Because people know whether unconsciously or not, like they know, you know, who's for real and who isn't. And you're certainly for real. But I think about that a lot. It's about the alignment between your behavior

and your words. And I think that's a key piece that's at play here right now. But you mentioned this word lighthouse, and I love that. It reminds me of when I had Adam Grant on the podcast and he wrote this whole book about like the different styles that we all have to kind of influence other people. There's the preacher and the politician and the scientist.

I think there's one more I forget. And he's like going through all of these. I've told this story before, but and I'm not identifying with any of them. And he just assumes, well, I'm, oh, the prosecutor. That's the other one. Like, oh, you must be the prosecutor. You're a lawyer.

And I'm like, not really. Like, that's not really my vibe. Like, that's why I left the law. Like're a lawyer. And I'm like, not really, like, that's not really my vibe. Like, that's why I left the law. Like, I don't think I'm very good at that. And I had heard somebody in an AA meeting taking a cake for a birthday. This was many, many years ago. And he talked about being a lighthouse

and I never forgot about it. And I thought like, that's what I wanna be. And I think that's where my skills are best suited. Like I wanna live my life in a certain way. I wanna stand in the light and like broadcast a signal. And the people that resonate with that will come. And I'm not trying to recruit anyone. I'm not trying to convince anybody.

And I'm not attached to whether anybody does anything with whatever I say or don't say. And I think there's real power in that. Like your power is like concentrated, but it's not needy. It just is. There's no doubt that you are, because if I look at your family and all four of your kids and your wife,

you're all that because that's what art is. Same way. Well, what you're doing with this podcast is the same thing that I'm trying to do with my work. Every episode is like a little speck of light being sent out into the world. And then somebody finds it. And then when they share it,

the light gets a little brighter. And when they share it, somebody then turns toward the lighthouse. And when you create music, or you art or you create ceremony or you create content that actually opens up something inside of people and reminds them of the power that they have over their thoughts, over their energy, over their time, you actually liberate people. And you free them from this like moment in time, particularly now where we feel so heavy and overwhelmed and we're constantly living in our phones and feeling like all the power's out there and nothing is

feeling like all the power's out there and nothing is in here and it's just not true. And so I see you doing the exact same thing. And I see that as a father and as parents, you have created a family that transmits that same consciousness, light, energy, art, whatever you wanna call it. And I really appreciate you reflecting all that back to me. And I can tell you, I know now why

I have never had press ever. I know now why I had never met Oprah Winfrey, even though I have admired her and followed her work for my entire life. It's because it was all being held for this. Yeah, you were being prepared. Correct. You weren't ready yet. No.

And now you can really fully embody the ideas and in such a way that that resonance is like vibrating at a different pitch. Yeah, I just literally believe in the goodness of people. And I also choose to believe that 85% of us or more actually believe the same things. And I also think that if you come from a place of really good intent, and you are a kind person, and you are able and I've become able to let people be who they are and who they're not. And I've become able to create space for people to change

and to move towards change without judging them. I have, through saying let them and let me, learned the difference between control and illusions of control, as you said, and actually where the true power lies. And it's liberating. It's actually liberating. I cannot believe how much time and energy

I wasted in my life. Just focused on meaningless bullshit, things that didn't matter, things I had no control over, how much stress I caused myself, what a pain in the ass and walking red flag I was in relationships because I couldn't handle my own emotions. And so to have this little tool, let them and let me,

which taps into all of this wisdom, it's like when you use it, it's extraordinary. And I love that people are excited, not about escaping their life, but actually turning toward it and learning how to tap into that power. That's what excites me. What excites me is that people are excited about a book.

We did a book signing last night. There were scalpers selling tickets. That's so crazy. $300. And people bought them. At like Barnes and Noble? Like outside Barnes and Noble? Yes, I've never seen it happen before.

There were people selling scalped tickets for $300 and people were buying them. That's crazy. And to me, like I could see that, like I'm a big fantasy reader. Like I could see that for Akatar or like any of the other big books, but for self-help, for philosophy. I mean, that for Akhatar or you know, like any of the other big books, but for self-help

For philosophy. I mean, that's the other thing if you had written this book it'd be in leadership not in self-help but you know as a woman it's a self-help book, even though it's number one in business, but I Just am so excited That in this day and age people are excited about a freaking book that is gonna help you. And also the book is written in a way that I'm literally, I mean, every story in there, I'm the asshole. So like when you read the stories,

you're gonna go, oh, I'm just like Malor, oh my God, I'm like her poor family. And so then as you read it, you're not only getting something for yourself, but because it's really a book about your relationship to other people, how you've made them a problem and how to stop doing that, and also how to use this to actually improve friendship, how to navigate love and choose and create the love you deserve

instead of chasing the potential of something that's just not there, as you do, how you can support people through struggle without forcing change on them, that people read it and then are like, oh my God, my sister needs to read it. And the number of families that are showing up at these book events who have all read the book, I mean, you'll use this more with your family.

We just went on a vacation for my dad's 80th, one of these where everybody's got the t-shirts that match and you're in the van and you're driving around and everybody's like, let them, let them, no controlling where everybody was. It was the best family vacation we've ever had because we could just let people be who they are and still all be together.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, wow. In this process of just letting people be who they are. What's been helpful to me in practicing that is to understand that that behavior that's irritating you so much, there's a reason why they're engaging in that behavior. And on some level, it is doing something for them. It is solving a problem for them

or they wouldn't be doing it. And you can go down the rabbit hole of why, but then you're just kind of too caught up in other people, right? You don't wanna do that. But the ripple here is that conversely, your negative reaction to that behavior, your judginess or irritation

is also doing something for you. Yes, and it's impacting. Like the thing that I think a lot about Rich is that if you think about a family, right? It's usually the person with the most challenging behavior that dictates the family. It's like, I imagine like a spider web. And if you're out in the morning and the do's on it,

you can see the web. And if you've got somebody with very immature, challenging, demonstrative, whatever, abusive, emotional behavior, them walking into the room is like tap, tap, tap on that web. And one of the reasons why they have so much power is because we give it to them.

We brace, we judge, we wish they were different, we cower, we sigh. And what I've come to realize, because we've all had the experience of navigating people's moods, navigating people's BS, navigating people's like just intolerable, inconsiderate stuff, is that by doing that, you give it power.

But the converse is also true. See, the most calm, peaceful, and grounded person actually has more power. And when you realize that, the most calm, peaceful, and grounded person actually has more power. And when you realize that, and you realize that stop waiting for your family to change, the family dynamic changes when you change. You're the most powerful person in your family. Because if you shift your energy

and you bring in the let them theory and you let your family be exactly who they are, as they are and as they aren't, and you don't bring in the let them theory and you let your family be exactly who they are as they are and as they aren't, and you don't bring in the bracing, and I'm not talking about being kumbaya, I'm talking about you're non-reactive. You just don't play the game. Your energy is so powerful, you shift the whole dynamic

because that web is dependent on everybody playing. And so when you go in and you're not upset or jealous or annoyed about all the stuff that's always been there, and you just let them be who they are, and you get to choose what's my relationship with my family, how much time do I bring, what's my energy gonna be? There's this saying in leadership that leaders bring the weather.

Well, you bring the weather in your family. You want it to be better, stop waiting for them. You're the one who has the power to change it. Yeah, cause you're opting out of the game. But I think there's a difference between leaning back and being like, well, I'm just letting them. Yes. You know, versus you're back to neutrality and equanimity.

Like if you're just in your power and unflappable, you're not playing that game. And then suddenly it's like, the game doesn't work. If you're not playing, you need multiple players in order for it to like operate, right? And there is, you know, real power in that. And I think the other thing is, when you begin to practice this

and you feel that discomfort because it's a different behavior. And you're like, why am I so agitated by letting this person do it? Like that's your opportunity of discovery. Like, okay, well, let's look at this agitation. Like what's behind this? What's driving this?

And then you can go on a whole adventure to unravel, you know, all of those knots and understand what led you to that place. Why, you know, why you become so agitated in that context. And then a whole world opens up from there. Well, the coolest thing about it is that when you first start saying, let them and let me, you'll notice that the fastest way to start using it

is to actually manage stress because life today is death by a thousand cuts. Whether it's the long lines, the traffic, the inconsiderate behavior, the endless video meetings at work and the no time to work, the crazy schedules of our kids, the more you start to go let them, let them, let them, you'll realize that you've allowed long lines at the grocery store to piss you off and drain your energy. Why do they only have two cash registers open?

What the hell are those people doing over there talking? And now all of a sudden you're thinking run the grocery store better than anybody else. And now all of a sudden your energy is all stressed out. And then you wonder, why do you go home and snap at your kids? Well, because you allowed the grocery store and the traffic and Zoom meetings at work

to drain your life force. And now you're bringing that stress to your family, which is why you can't actually chill and let go. And so when you put up this boundary and say, let them, let them, let them, and you protect yourself from the world at large and just the things that are going to happen, airport travel is going to be stressful. Let the lines be long. Let the jerk behind you cough and not wear a mask. Let this like, like just let. And let me just recognize the value of my time and energy and actually protect it from this stuff.

And let me take the actions that help me stay healthy or keep me de-stressed. And so when you now have lower stress, because you've been protecting yourself using this let them theory from the world stressing you out, you actually do have the capacity to have better self-awareness and better emotional management.

You know, one of the other things that I discovered in really digging into this, and this is something I also learned from my therapist, Ann Daven, is this thing that has been so helpful, which is I actually believe that every adult you see is just an eight-year-old in a big body.

That's it. You alluded to this, that everybody's behavior that's irritating or challenging is just a coping mechanism that's worked for years. Well, I literally go, there is a eight-year-old in that body because nobody actually knows how to be emotionally mature because it's not something you're born with. It's a skill that you have to want to learn

and that you have to practice. And none of our parents knew how to do it. So you didn't get it in your childhood. I don't care how calm and stoic you may be. Learning how to recognize your emotions and actually feel them and then understand how to process them in a calm manner without like, again, taking it out on other people.

That is a super, I didn't learn how to do this until I was 54. I'm not kidding. And I'm still working on it. And I still do the rage text every once in a while. I'm still eight most of the time. Yes, well, that's fine. It's my big flare up.

Like the thing that I just am so challenged by is- When Julie puts her stuff on your sink. No, I've learned, we're fine. It's like customer service on the phone. Like I just cannot, I have Julie make all those calls now because I cannot control myself. I get so off kilter and agitated.

And the reason why now I've discovered my theory or I believe is, you know, it brings me right back to being eight years old and being infantilized by a mother who was over controlling and domineering and, you know, held all this power over what I could and couldn't do and was constantly disappointed in me. Yeah, yes. It's like, it goes right, like I'm back in that space

where I feel cornered and I can't escape. Yes, yes. And then you take it out on some person that is working three jobs to pay their bills and they're sitting in like a call center and- Where's your flare up? Mine, anything that's like work related, that's like inefficient.

And I feel like I'm a race horse and a starting gate and all the other gates have opened and I'm like this. The worst thing that I do is, but I don't do it much anymore. And this happens because? I don't actually know why. I don't know what the, I think it has to do with not being able to trust people

like that I thought something got handled. I know I've said it 15 times and it's all up to me. Oh, that's what it is. It's like this sense that no matter how much help I ask for or how clear that I am, eventually it's just all up to me. And so I've done so much work that it doesn't happen as much. And there's only one aspect,

if I'm like thinking about the business, that's still like, ah. And it's not because it's not working. Clearly things are working, but the ends don't justify the means because it's a very stressful work process. And because the process doesn't work, it ends up on my like impacting me.

Sure, so control issues rooted in trust issues. I'm the only person who can do this right. I can't rely on anybody. Goes right back to attachment theory and attachment disorders. Yeah, I'm alone, I'm alone. You were left on your own. You couldn't trust anybody as a young person

or you had to figure it out on your own or you were let down by other people who made promises they couldn't fulfill for you. And this is how you were wired at eight years old or whatever it is and it still plays out. So emotional maturity and the thing that I practice is when the volcano starts to erupt inside me, I have to say let them.

And sometimes I have to say it 25 times a day. And then there will be that breaking point where then I hit the text to my partner and I'm like, oh my god, I'm so sorry. Like you don't deserve that. I'm now quick to apologize and I do not send them. I actually never send them to my husband anymore, ever. I've gotten complete control of that. I am way better at nailing my tone. So if I have something that comes out short

because I'm hungry or angry or I'm frustrated by something and then I turn and I say something to somebody on my team or one of my kids and I'm like, oh, sorry, I didn't mean that tone with you, I'm really sorry. Like it is like razor thin between the thing that I used to do day in and day out and actually catching it when it happens because I don't want to take that shit out on other people. Like it's not fair.

And so it's not their job to manage me. It's not the world's job to be perfect for me. It's my job to learn how to manage my emotions in a way that is respectful to other people, that doesn't silence me. But, you know, I talk a lot about how with myself, don't ever silence what you need to say, but pay a lot of attention to how you're saying it.

Because the tone and the energy and the emotion really matters, especially with your family, especially with your friends, with everybody, honestly. But who wants to do that when I can just point fingers and talk shit about people? You can. And then you're gonna die of a heart attack because you're chronically stressed out and you're gonna feel powerless in a world

where you actually have a lot of power and you're gonna miss out on a lot of your life because you have put all of the power over there, which is why it's pissing you off and why you're frustrated. And so I think that this has, in terms of the emotional immaturity, looking at somebody that's eight years old,

especially somebody that has like very challenging behavior, what happens is you don't fear people. You actually feel a level of compassion for them. Like if you look at somebody who is passive aggressive, that's a child who pouts. If you look at somebody in your family that gives you the silent treatment, which is very common in our parents' generation,

you just stop talking, you punish the person by removing yourself, and then two days later, you pretend like nothing ever happened. Highly emotionally destructive behavior to a child in particular. But if you have an adult in your life that ghosts you or that gives you the silent treatment,

that is punishing you because they can't have a conversation that's a little difficult or they're having emotions like disappointment or anger or frustration, and they have to punish you. That's an eight-year-old. That's an eight-year-old who pouts because an eight-year-old that goes in the corner and pouts, what are they doing?

They're overwhelmed with their emotion. So they go away, hoping the adult comes over to soothe them. That's exactly what adults do. And you get to choose, so you're gonna let them, because you're not a parent to another adult. It is not your job to manage somebody else's emotions. You let them do what they're gonna do and recognize, okay, that's a person that's eight years old.

And only they can do the work to learn a different way to cope with their emotions. And now let me choose, how do I wanna respond to this? Am I going to spend a little less time with this person? Am I gonna go over and choose to sue them? Because I know this person's story and I'm just wanna facilitate something here,

but you get to choose, you don't have to be the victim of their behavior. And it's important that that choice is divorced from some sense of how it's gonna change their behavior. It won't change your behavior. Cause it won't, right? No, no. You have all these stories around how you've practiced this in your own life,

your son's prom, your daughter's breakup, things like that. But I wanna up the stakes a little bit. Imagine a parent who has a teen who is in the throes of heroin addiction and is refusing help. It's a very difficult situation to know what to do and what not to do. The parental instinct is to rush in, solve the problem,

get them in a treatment center, do whatever it takes to prevent the worst case scenario. At the same time, you know better than anyone that you can't will that change upon that person. If somebody doesn't wanna get sober, they're not gonna get sober. And so you have to kind of allow them to hit their bottom or have the experience they need to have

for them to have the epiphany where they feel like they need and want to take control of their life. But the stakes are so high. Like we're really dealing with life or death here. And no parent wants to have the experience of like, well, I'm always allowing them to have their divine moment. And then they overdosed and died.

Correct. So I think there's a huge difference and we draw it in the book between kids and adults. When you're the parent, you're still the one that's flying the plane and you have to make hard decisions. And when it's an issue of self-destructive, dangerous behavior, I personally believe you have an obligation to step in because you're dealing with somebody whose brain is not fully

developed. Now, I need to qualify everything I'm saying by just saying very plainly, I've never been in that situation. I am not a psychiatrist or an addiction specialist, but I spoke to a number of them and quote a number of them. There's like 52 experts quoted in this book who contributed to the book. And there is one child psychologist that's made the biggest difference in my life and that actually wrote a free guide that is available at the end of the book to using the let them theory in situations with parenting, including very challenging situations. And so here's the twist that I want you to think about, because it is true. There is a, I can't remember if it was Gabor Maté or if it was Dr. Robert Waldinger who

said this in the book, that nobody gets sober until drinking is harder than doing the work that you're scared to do and facing the issues that you don't wanna face. And so until it seems that what you're doing is harder, the person's probably not going to get sober, and here's why. The wiring of the human brain is such that we default to what's easy now. And it's also wired to avoid anything that's painful. And so in order to change anything about your life,

you have to either have the thing that you're avoiding suddenly seem like the better, easier choice, or you have to make a conscious decision that you want to do the thing that is terrifyingly hard. And no human being makes that decision for anyone else. You know this, nobody gets sober for their kids. They don't get sober for their spouse. They get to a point where they do it for themselves.

Not in a sustainable way. I mean, they might do it perfunctorily to get people off their back, but it's not going to last. So understanding that sets you up for this terrifying conundrum, which you've already spoken to, which is you're not gonna just let your kid die,

and you're also not in control of their behavior. And so there is something that you have to do that is, yes, you're gonna force certain things because you are the parent and they are a minor and this is life or death, but there's no guarantee it's gonna work. And so Dr. Stuart Abalon, who has been practicing as a child psychologist

at Mass General Brigham Hospital in Boston, he is the founder of a program called Think Kids. He's written like four bestselling books. He has this incredible approach that works with the let them theory, that is not let them and not let me, it's with them. As parents, I've made this mistake, and we do this with everybody in our life,

but as parents, we presume we know best. And we never even stop and ask our kids, what do you think about this? Have you thought about what you wanna do about this? And so Dr. Stuart Ablon has this whole approach that's like, don't be directing the sobriety, don't be directing the change, don't be directing this is the tutor,

this is that this, without first, A, apologizing for all the pressure you feel. This is this thing we write about called the ABC loop, which is again, my attempt to summarize all of the unbelievable body of research around motivation and addiction and all of the research that's been contributed by experts into this very section of the book.

You start, so that it's an ABC loop, this is a conversation that you're gonna have. First A, apologize. You have not apologized for all the pressure that you've put on this person, all the judgment, all the shame. You don't think that your kid knows that they have a problem. You don't think that they wanna get sober.

You don't think that your kid who's struggling in school isn't trying. Like the mistake that we make as parents and as people is that we actually don't even consider That the hardest working kid in a classroom is the one who's failing The friend of yours that works the most at their health is the person who's overweight and struggling with it because they think about it All the time, you know, I choose to believe that every person knows when they're giving up on themselves Every person wants to thrive they They want to be happy.

It's not a matter of will. It's almost always a matter of not having the skill or not having the hope that it's gonna work. And so when you come from the place of saying, my kid who's struggling with an addiction or struggling with grades or struggling with friends or struggling with weight, they wanna get better. They know that they're giving up on themselves.

There's a deep tension between where you are and what they actually want for their life. They know this. And so you need to switch or consider switching how you approach this because what you wanna do is acknowledge the tension. And you start by A, apologize. Apologize for the pressure, the judgment, the shame,

it must be very difficult for you to feel this. It must be very difficult to be struggling with this. And then A, ask. Ask an open-ended question. How do you feel about where you're at? Have you thought about what you might want to do about this? That's all they think about.

And even if they don't say anything, just those two questions excavates the tension that they need to organize the motivation to change. Well, it's an act of compassion. It's the with them. To listen, see, hear them, validate them, to be on their level rather than this parent from above. And I think issues like this get complicated

when there's enmeshment issues. Of course. So for example, the parent is kind of self-identifying with the kid's problem. Like this kid's problem is a reflection on me and all of my issues around what people think of me and what are people gonna say about me if I have a kid in rehab or whatever.

And yeah, because sometimes the enmeshment issue creates the conditions for the addiction in the first place, right? It's a whole big fucking mess. So the parent has to also be somebody who can, if that's a condition that they have, to be able to recognize that and realize like, what's going on with your kid is not about you.

And the best way for you to help that child is to depersonalize yourself from it and make yourself available. Be with them. Yeah, to be with them on their level. Because it's gonna require an extraordinary amount of work to get better grades, to get sober, to get in better shape, to tap into your motivation

if you're a 20 something that feels lost in your life. And if you are already in a situation where there's that standoff, then the way you're approaching it isn't working. And I really believe in Dr. Stuart Ablon's research and the guide that he wrote for the Let Them Theory book on parenting and this with them approach. Because when you're with them, you're actually saying,

I first of all, wanna hear what you're thinking. I wanna hear what you think you wanna do and I'm with you in figuring this out, but you're also signaling that you have some agency here. Now that doesn't mean you're not gonna step in. It doesn't mean you're not gonna make them go to rehab. You know, one of the big levers that parents do have is that you stop paying for things,

but nobody wants to pull that trigger, right? So if you've got somebody who has a severe eating disorder and they're refusing to go to inpatient, then you gotta ask yourself, why are you paying for their car? This is from Dr. Robert Waldinger, who said in the book, people need to learn from life. And if you're shielding them from the consequences

of their life by paying for their life, then they're not gonna learn from life. Also, that thing that's so hard to look at, that's harder to look at than it is to drink, suddenly the drinking gets a little bit harder. Yes. And it pushes you towards, having to look at that thing that you don't wanna look at.

My ripple on that is you change when the pain of what you're doing exceeds the fear of the unknown on the other side of that. There's some kind of fulcrum there when you flip over and then you become willing. But again, it's not something that you can impose on somebody else. And this idea of allowing people to have their process,

I mean, Julie taught me this, she calls it, I've told this story many times, but she calls it like letting people have their divine moment. Like the last thing you wanna do is rob somebody of their divine moment, because that could be the thing that catalyzes like a whole different trajectory for their life. And if you interfere and fuck around with that,

even if you're- You actually delay their healing. Of the best of intentions, like to also recognize that that is a great act of love and compassion. You're saying, I trust you and I believe in you and I'm here to support you, but I'm on the sidelines. I'm not going to interfere, but like, if you need me, I am here and I see you.

Yes, that's the big thing. And that's a beautiful, like, that's just such a beautiful thing to give to somebody. I agree, because you are saying, I'm always here. I believe that you can do this. And I also know I need to step out of the way a little bit so that you can actually figure out when you're going to do this.

Because I think one of the hardest things in life is that you're gonna be ready for somebody to heal or get sober or get a new job, or like figure out the issues that keep them in bad patterns and relationships before they are. And it's very, very just excruciating to watch somebody that you love self-destruct. I mean, the amount of restraint that it takes

to not jump in front of a moving bus to save your kids from self-destructing is, most of us don't have it. And in the situation you're talking about, I'm sure I would make a million mistakes out of fear. I would absolutely shove them into rehab. I would want them to never be around the friends. I would do probably the things

that the experts say you shouldn't do. But what I have come to actually believe in speaking to so many of these experts that do deal with these situations, that really thinking about this from, at the end of the day, the person is going to have to do the work. So how do I create an environment for healing? How do I stop believing I can force them to do it

and I can do it for them, or I know the best way for them to do it and I can do it for them or I know the best way for them to do it. How can I focus on organizing an environment that makes healing possible? And then step back and let the person have their process. I mean, it's probably the most difficult and loving thing that you can do. And either they will or they won't. Let them.

But if they do, then it's their idea. And it's the ownership and the agency that comes with like, they're making the decision to do it for themselves. Well, you know, it's interesting because Dr. Stewart Ablon was talking about how his practice was in pediatrics. And as his patients have gotten older, what he's seeing is now this huge rise in 20-year-olds

that have so much helplessness because they have had a lifetime of parents stepping in and solving all their problems. And now they're out on their own and do not have the skill, it's not a will. People change when they can. And if they haven't changed yet, they can't because they either believe it's not going to work so they don't have the hope or they are missing a skill that is required

for them to change. And I love that framing because it's based in optimism and this belief that people can change. And if they're not changing, for example, that they're struggling in school or they're struggling with friends or they're struggling in some aspect of their life, there is a particular skill or there's some level of hope that's actually missing.

And when you think you know the answers and when you kind of come in and you just try to solve everything, you miss the opportunity to identify what skills missing or you miss the opportunity to actually instill hope because you actually think there is no hope. So I got to do this for you. But on the skill piece, I'm just imagining a scenario like,

oh, they just need this skill. I know what that skill is. I see clearly like what they're missing and here's a book. Here's, let me do, you know, then you're like doing that thing again. If you take the with them approach. So doctor and doctor, you should have him on the show. He's just unbelievable.

In his 30 years of research, there are five skills that any child that is a, that's labeled a challenge, they're actually not a challenge. They exhibit challenging behavior because they're missing one of five skills in life. And it might be a skill related to executive functioning and language based learning. And if you can't actually learn in the classroom for eight hours, of course you're gonna exhibit challenging behavior. It might be some skill related to social interaction.

Like some kids just don't know that there's a certain amount of spatial distance that people need from you. Otherwise kids think you're weird. And so the skill is literally learning how to walk up to a group of kids and look at feet and position your feet kind of the same distance. And the with them approach is about what do you want to do about this? Well, I'd like, I wish people would, I wish I had more friends.

Okay, well, what do you think? Like what do you think you might want to do? Well, I'm kind of nervous about it. And so really having your arm around them with them in co-creating as you're guiding toward the thing as the expert, what might be the issue. It's pretty cool, isn't it? That is cool.

But the piece that, you know, for me is the most resonant is just the idea of kind of eradicating the hierarchy, you know, like, hey, like, how can I help you? You know, like, what do you need? And how can I serve you as opposed to, here's what you need to do and let me tell you the way it is. Uh-huh, like the Lethem theory

has fundamentally changed my marriage. It's changed my family, not just the, you know, three kids and Chris and I, but my relationship with my family, not just the three kids and Chris and I, but my relationship with my parents. It has absolutely turned my life on its head in the best way because I can see that everybody wants to be thriving. Everybody wants to feel accepted.

Everybody wants to feel like somebody gives them the grace of hearing their opinion. Everybody wants to like just be able to have their experience. And I didn't realize how often I was stepping on somebody else's emotions, or I was giving power to their opinions. Like another very liberating thing

about using the let them theory is, you know, the way that I use it is I don't say just let them think what they want. I say, let them think something negative. Let them think something that's not true. Yeah, it's easy to do it when it's in your favor. Yes, so actually saying out loud, let them think something negative.

Let them misunderstand me. Say the thing you're actually managing. Let them not something negative. Let them misunderstand me. Say the thing you're actually managing. Let them not like me. Is there a difference with respect to gender when it comes to obsession with what other people are doing or not doing or thinking or saying, or our compulsion to control our lives in those awkward ways?

I'm not a researcher in this area, but there's a lot of research about the social conditioning of women and people pleasing and caregiving and the message that women get about it being your job to make sure everybody's okay. But here's what I've come to believe. And this is not some academic study.

This is just some academic study. This is just my lived experience. And it's also the fact that Chris, my husband, his work focuses on men's retreats that he's created. He's also a death doula. And he is getting his degree in spiritual psychology. And so his work is all in working with men. And one of his biggest findings

from leading all these retreats and being with so many men at different stages of their life, is that men, I'm laughing at myself because we actually got in a fight about it. I said, like, what's the biggest takeaway from leading men's retreats for seven years, Chris? He said that men actually feel like

they're last on their list, that it's their job to take care of everybody else. I'm like, that's not true. Women feel that way because we're taking, you guys aren't the care, we're, and so we get into this fight and then I'm like, wait a minute, what if I just take that as fact? What if we're all feeling

like we're responsible for everybody else? What if we're all feeling the weight of the world on our shoulders? What if men just feel it in the sense of they have to provide? What if men just feel it in the sense of if you're not working and you're not making money and you're not providing, then you're not worth anything,

that your value is in your work. It's not in who you are. And what if women are thinking the same thing, only our version is that we are responsible for everybody's emotional state and making everybody happy, but it's the same burden. I have found that actually just looking at everybody and giving them the grace to believe

that we all are so critical of ourselves and we are all so focused on other people's moods and other people's opinions and other people's expectations. And then we turn it back on ourselves that I personally feel that everybody does it. I think that's true. I think there's a lot of truth in that. What is the primary key insight

that you want people to take away from this book and your experience now that it's out, like being in the world and connecting with people who are already, I mean, the book just came out and people are already getting tattooed with it. Oh, they were getting tattoos when I shared it on social media once. I mean, it came out December 24th,

I don't even know what the numbers are. But this is like, here's an interesting thought. Like that sort of plays into this idea that maybe you do have control over other people, that you could say something and then they go out and get a tattoo. Oh, I don't believe that. Like does that fuck with your brain?

Not at all. And I'll tell you why. I don't feel responsible for what other people do with the things that I'm sharing in the light that I cast. That's good. I look at what I'm doing as a job that has a certain weight and responsibility and magic to it because of what's happening right now

and the feeling of being a light and sharing goodness and reminding people of what they know to be true about themselves and other people and sharing simple ways that they can tap back into what's important to them and take back their time and energy and power and joy. But it's a job. Like I, it's not my identity.

Like I know who I am. I love my life in a small mountain town. I love my family. I would, I wanna see my friends like you more. I don't wanna do more. And I'm not tied up in what's actually happening and how that says something about the actual person that I am.

And I think that's why people always use the words authentic humility, because I don't want to have a different life. I want to still shop in the little store that, you know, is like a hardware store meets grocery store. I want to hike up the mountain in the morning. I want to meet my friends for coffee. Like all of the bigness of this is exciting

because of the impact and because it feels like a once in a lifetime opportunity to be able to show up and do something good and to serve in this moment. And that's why you're a worthy steward of this message because you're transmitting something that you actually have. It's beautiful.

Thank you. I feel like we should end this with the serenity prayer. It's actually part of it, yeah. Yeah, this is how a lot of AA meetings end. Oh, really? It's a reminder, yeah, like God, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, the courage to change the things I can,

and the wisdom to know the difference. Wow. You know that one. I've never heard you say it. Oh, thank you. Thank you for doing this today, Malice is wonderful. Thank you, I love you. I love you, I'm so happy for you

and the impact that you're having in a real meaningful way in the world, it's a really beautiful thing. And I celebrate you. Thank you. I celebrate you too, I'm really proud of you. I'm so excited to see all of the ways that you're expanding and the people that you're empowering and I love you too.

Here's to our next conversation. Here's to our next conversation. It better be in Boston. All right. Get on a plane. Book my flight, thanks. That's it for today. Thank you for listening. I truly hope you enjoyed the conversation. To learn more about today's guests, including links and resources related

to everything discussed today, visit the episode page at richroll.com where you can find the entire series of episodes and more information about the episodes and more information about the episodes and more information about the episodes and more information about the episodes and more information about the episodes about today's guests, including links and resources related to everything discussed today, visit the episode page at richroll.com where you can find the entire podcast archive,

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Namaste. Thanks for watching!