The Rich Roll Podcast - Let’s Talk About Depression: Kevin Breel’s Confessions of a Depressed Comic — And What Happens When Your TED Talk Goes Supernova

Episode Date: September 17, 2015

Let's talk about depression. Kevin Breel didn't fit the adolescent persona you would expect to fall prey to this debilitating affliction. One of the popular kids in high school, he was team captain of his standout basketball team. A class clown who would later pursue a career in stand up comedy. The guy who could hold court around the party keg and always keep everyone else laughing. Everyone except himself. At the time, Kevin was leading a clandestine double life. A dark secret he kept well hidden behind his well attuned comedic timing. A confusing and dire mental state that would leave him bedridden and secluded in isolation for days on end. A fatal secret that culminated in a suicide attempt that nearly took his young life. What prevented Kevin from sharing his pain and reaching out for help when he needed it most? The stigma that still surrounds a mental disease that lurks in the shadows, feeds on isolation and goes unchecked due to profound misunderstanding and misplaced judgment. You might be shocked to hear that according to Save.org, depression is the 2nd leading cause of death for young Americans between the ages of 15-24. According to the World Health Organization (WHO), depression impacts 121 million people across the globe and is the leading cause of disability worldwide, claiming 800,000 lives annually. That's one death by depression-induced suicide every 40 seconds. Luckily, Kevin found a way out. A solution that began with the courage to directly confront his pain. It was a move that not only saved his life, but gave him newfound purpose — a quest to shatter the profound yet unwarranted stigma that surrounds his disease by becoming an ambassador of hope to teens everywhere that they need not suffer in silence. The message? That by embracing the darkness within and bringing it into the light, together we can heal. At age 19, Kevin reared his gangly 6'3″ frame atop a stage in a small nondescript auditorium to share his story publicly for the first time. The circumstance? A local TEDx event in Ambleside, a quiet neighborhood in southwest Edmonton, Alberta. Hardly an illustrious venue, he looked out upon a small crowd of no more than 80 and thought, I'll be lucky if more than a couple hundred people ultimately watch this when it goes online. What happened next was astonishing. Lauded for its immediacy, raw honesty, unbridled emotion and authentic vulnerability, Confessions of a Depressed Comic struck a universal cultural nerve and became an instant viral hit. Collecting over half a million views in it's first 30 days, it now clocks well over 3 million views, making it one of the most watched TED Talks of all time. Featured on more than 200+ media outlets, Mashable called it “one of the moments that brought the world together.” A 15-minute speech that forever altered the trajectory of Kevin's life. Today Kevin is an internationally recognized mental health activist. A large personality exuding warmth and humor channeled around topics people tend not to talk about, Kevin has become an in demand guest speaker at over 100 colleges and universities across North America, frequently sharing the stage with Governors, professional athletes and celebrities. He has written opinion pieces for major media and his work has been featured by The Huffington Post, MTV, CNN, The TODAY Show on NBC, Mashable and The Wall Street Journal. Not enough?

I just felt a little bit like isolated, I think, from peer groups, from fitting in. And I felt like someone who wanted to think about things. And, you know, when you're a teenager, it's like it's not the culture isn't necessarily set up to have deep conversations about anything. It's very surface. And high school can be a lot about hiding parts of yourself to sort of fit in. That's Kevin Breal, and this is the Rich Roll Podcast. The Rich Roll Podcast.

Hey, you guys, what do you know what's happening? What's going on? You guys all right? Everything okay? Hope you're enjoying your day. It's going to be all right. My name is Rich Roll. I'm your host. This is my podcast. It's the podcast that bears my name. It's the show where I sit down with the outliers, the big forward thinkers across all categories of positive paradigm-breaking culture change. And I've got a simple goal. That goal is simply to help all of us, myself included, unlock and unleash our best, most authentic selves. I appreciate you guys dialing me up today for subscribing to the show on iTunes, for subscribing to my weekly newsletter, for giving us a review on iTunes,

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for all the support and the help. I had a great time in Telluride this past weekend. I was speaking at an event called the Integrative Wellness Summit. It was the first year of this event and the turnout was amazing. I got to share the stage with some pretty influential and amazing people in the wellness space, which was really cool, including people like Deepak Chopra and T. Colin Campbell. Always good to see him. Guy is so amazing. And I was able to get some good runs in at high altitude, coughing a lung out. That was amazing. It's just a really great town.

It was my first time there. I met some amazing people. It's a special place. I'll definitely be going back there very soon. And I went from there straight to where I am right now, which is Vancouver, British Columbia. It's my first time in this city as well. And as I always say, the best way to learn about a new city is to run it. So that's exactly what I did. I woke up this morning, got in about 10 miles running through and around the city, through Stanley Park, along the water there. It's just, this is really an extraordinary city. I can't believe I've never been here before. I'm really impressed and amazed

with the city's beauty. And I just wrapped a rather revelatory podcast with addiction, human behavior, and childhood development specialist, Dr. Gabor Mate. I think that's how you say it. The inflection in Hungarian is on the first syllable. So I hope I got that right. Anyway, he just left and I'm kind of reeling. It was an amazing conversation, personally healing for me. I got emotional, and I think you guys are going to dig it. It's coming up soon. I don't know exactly when, but of course, I'll keep you posted. I got Kevin Breal on the show today, a young, enterprising guy. I really enjoyed talking to him he's a comedian he's a mental health health health activist who

sort of exploded on the scene a few years ago when at a young and spry 19 he delivered his first tech TED talks called confessions of a depressed comic and that talk really struck a cultural nerve it was kind of a zeitgeist moment it immediately

went viral it garnered over half a million views in its first month, and it now clocks well over 2 million views and is one of the most watched TED Talks of all time. And the reason I think it went viral is because Kevin so courageously and openly shares his personal struggle with depression and contemplations with suicide in such an honest and vulnerable way. And it cast

much needed light on a subject that loves to lurk in the dark, that feeds on isolation, that doesn't get its proper due and is so prone to misunderstanding and misplaced judgment. He's a super cool kid. It's a great conversation. More on him in a moment, but first a little housekeeping. Today's episode is brought to you by Harry's. Look, you guys, you got to shave, right? At some point, even if you're like a hipster with a super cool beard, or maybe you have like a bicycle handle mustache or something like that, you still got to trim it. You still have to groom yourself. You might have to shave your neck or something like that. So you're going to have to buy blades. You're going to have to buy shave gel, foam cream, whatever it is at some point.

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I like their stuff. I think you will too. All right, before I get into my rap session with Kevin, I wanted to make a couple other really quick announcements. The first is that Cowspiracy, the documentary is now officially up on Netflix and streaming worldwide. How amazing is that Cowspiracy, the documentary, is now officially up on Netflix and streaming worldwide. How amazing is that? In my podcast the other day with Kip and Keegan, I think it was Keegan who said it was only going to be available in English-speaking territories. But I just want to clarify that it is actually available everywhere. If you're in a non-English speaking territory, it's available with subtitles, or maybe you have a relative there who might want to watch it. Well, they can.

If you've seen the film, this is a new cut and thus a new reason to watch it or re-watch it. Plus, Leonardo DiCaprio is the executive producer, so that's pretty cool. Maybe that's another reason why you should check it out, because if he likes it, I think you guys will too. And I just want to say that it would be great if we could marshal all of our resources to send Netflix and the world a strong message

that this is an important film to watch and we can do that by kind of bum-rushing the site, Netflix.com, watching the movie, giving it a review, sharing it with our friends,

talking about it the whole nine yards. And by doing that, I think it will really show Netflix that there is strong interest in this movie, which will in turn help them legitimize or justify putting some emphasis behind additional marketing of it so that the most number of people can be exposed to what I think is one of the most important, if not the most important documentary to come out in recent memory. And it's also entertaining. It's a fun movie. Everybody in the family can watch it and enjoy it. And I think it holds within it the power to really change lives and redirect the environmental conversation. And hopefully it will lead to

legislative and regulatory changes and just additional popular awareness of what is driving the environmental problems that we're facing right now. So that's my big speech about that. The second thing I want to tell you guys is that my good buddy, Dr. Garth Davis, he's an alumnus of this podcast, episode 50 and 150. He's got a new book coming out the first week of October, and it's called Proteinaholic. And this book is a deep dive into what is driving our protein-obsessed culture. And he asked the question, is this focus on this macronutrient, this obsession that we have with protein, is it making us healthier? And the simple conclusion that he comes up with based on an unbelievable amount of research that he has done is no. Protein deficiency is a myth. And this is

a really fascinating, amazing book. I had the opportunity to read it in manuscript form several months ago, and I can tell you it's a game changer. So if you have enjoyed my podcast, Conversations with Dr. Garth, then you have an idea of why this fixation is not only unhealthy, but why it's making us sick, fat, and tired. So let's support Garth. Show him some love.

Pick up the book by pre-order today using the Amazon banner ad at richroll.com, of course. And I don't think you'll be disappointed. I'm hoping to get him back on the podcast in early november when he's in los angeles and we can uh really get into the nitty-gritty of the book then but until then uh pick it up by pre-order all right okay kevin breal uh so this is a kid who by all rights really didn't fit the kind of person that you would expect to fall prey to debilitating depression. He was popular. He was team captain of his basketball team in high school. He had all

his needs met, but he did. He did fall prey to this debilitating condition of depression, so much so that it almost took his life. It's a great story. It's an important story. It's a cautionary tale, but it's also a story of hope and redemption. Kevin was introduced to me by our mutual friend, Josh Shipp, who in his own right is an extraordinary guy and alumnus of this podcast as well. Episodes 116 and 117, we did a two-parter with him because we just kept talking forever and ever because he was so amazing. So if you missed those, please check those out. Anyway, Josh told me that I needed to check out Kevin and what he's doing. So I did because Josh is the man. And if he says a guy's worth checking out, then he's worth checking out.

So I'm glad I did. I'm glad I got to sit down with Kevin because this conversation really rocks. And Kevin, I want to also make an announcement, has his first book coming out like today. It's called Boy Meets Depression or Life Sucks and Then You Live. And it's a great read. It's a fun read. It's an easy read. So do yourself a favor and pick that book up too. This conversation really focuses on the truth and misconceptions surrounding depression,

the difference between depression and sadness. It's a conversation about the teen suicide epidemic. It's a look at what is driving millennial culture, what it's like to be thrust into the spotlight suddenly via a viral hit TED talk and what that did to his life trajectory. It's a talk about the power of vulnerability, the importance of facing, shedding light, and sharing our pain in order to heal, and the importance of helping others. So, without further ado, ladies and gentlemen, Kevin Briel. I hope you enjoy the conversation. I love the fact that you brought me a juice, man. Yeah, man. You got to bring something, you know?

You know me well i appreciate that very much yeah so it's super nice to meet you um this has been a while in the making uh and you first came across my radar because uh josh ship reached out to me um who for listeners out there he was on the podcast i don't know maybe a year ago legendary episode in my opinion he's uh i mean i love that guy yeah and the work that he's doing with young people is uh super inspiring um and i know he's getting ready to give a ted talk pretty soon oh yeah that's right yeah yeah um and he's like you got to check this guy out kevin he's my man you know watch his ted talk so i checked it

out i was like oh this guy's awesome man like i'd love to have this guy on the podcast we went back and forth i mean i was like yeah but is he gonna come to la like how are we gonna make this happen of course i'm gonna come to la for the ritual podcast of course no questions remote forests of uh of northern canada or wherever it is that you're hailing from in my centrist American point of view, like trying to imagine your idyllic village in Canada. Yeah. You're making it sound way better than it is. So I'm going to let you do that.

Okay. I'll just continue to entertain. So what brings you to LA? This podcast, man. That's one reason. But also my book is coming out in a week or so now, and so I have a few friends here I wanted to give it to, and a little bit of press as well. But just a quick trip down here.

I don't get down here much for someone who lives on the West Coast. So, yeah, it's nice, though. It's like raining all the time where I live because it's Pacific Northwest weather. So, to come here, and it's so hot. So, it's great. Yeah, it's cool. You've been to LA before, have you? yeah yeah cool so we're like two weeks out from your book coming out 10 days yeah boy meets depression or life sucks and then you live yeah with and

then there's a it says life sucks and then you die but dies crossed out yeah yeah yeah yeah so yeah and if you look at the cover of the book it, it's kind of got like this journal theme to it. Right. I really pushed super hard with the publisher to get the design and stuff that I wanted. Because the whole idea, I guess, or the whole concept of the book is if you track back to the TED Talk. And that was when I was 19. So, I'm 22 now. So, there's been some time there.

now so there's been some time there and the thing i think people connected to with the ted talk was just the kind of honest vulnerable nature of it i guess and it wasn't like it's not trying to be here's advice or it's not motivational or anything it was just kind of truthful and i wanted to do the same thing with the book and we had a few offers for book deals and a lot of them were people coming and being like hey we want you to write this sort of like advice laced book and you know i do stand-up comedy like i have no 22 years old i have no advice really to give and so i wanted it to be really honest and so the book has this kind of like journal theme and it's really written from this place of like if you could have gone back in time to when i was a teenager and really struggling with some of this stuff just this sort of like really honest look at it so yeah i like that i mean there's a big difference between sharing your experience uh versus kind of you know that when you when you

start giving advice then it's there's a separation between you and the audience or whoever you're speaking to as if like i have it figured out and now i'm gonna right bequeath you my wisdom you know and that immediately sort of i think that creates it can i mean if it's very well done and somebody has amazing insights then more power to them but i think that creates a barrier between you and who you're trying to reach as opposed to just sharing your experience and letting the wisdom of of of you know what you uh you know have have kind of weathered and gotten to the other side of, or continue to, you know, weather and confront the power in that is that people can emotionally

relate to that. And, and they can extract from that their own kind of idea about how to approach their problem and perhaps, you know, find wisdom in how you did it. But you're, you're, you're coming from a place of like, here's how it went for me. Like, draw your own conclusions in some respects. Yeah, like that's one thing that, I mean, not to just plug your book, but that was one thing I really liked about Finding Ultras. It's like it's real, you know, it's a real story and it's truthful and it's not from a place, in my opinion at least, of being like, I know so much and I want to tell you guys, you know.

It's just this really truthful sort of account. And that's something that I think that is missing, my opinion from a lot of books nowadays is it's just there's this idea i think that to sell a book you have to be an expert you know or you have to have this sort of like you said this guru effect where you're somehow removed from being a human or something and i think that with the idea and like the topic of something like depression for people who have been there and related to that, their BS meters, like pretty finely tuned, you know? And if you come and start being like, this is my three-step plan to beating this, I just feel like cured. Right. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. And exactly. And like, I did an interview on the phone this morning for a magazine and they were asking me like, well, now is your life so much better

that you've overcome this? And I was like, that's just like a huge misconception or like cultural perspective that I feel way different from. Like, I don't look at it as something like I've overcome it. Like, I really feel like it's a part of who I am. Like, I'm a sensitive guy. Like, I feel, you know, good things, bad things, heavy things, light things. So I think that it's a part of who I am. And that's sort of what I wanted to communicate in the book was that there's a lot of reasons that I'm grateful for that experience of struggling and reaching this point where I was suicidal. I mean, there was a lot of transformation and personal growth for myself that came out of that.

So I don't look back on it with regret or shame or guilt. You know what I mean? Like, that's for me. And that's really what I wanted to sort of communicate in the book was obviously i wish i could have been honest about it earlier and i wish i could have talked about it earlier and there's certain things i would have done differently sure but overall the experience i mean it's sort of at the foundation of my perspective for life and how i see life now so it it's not something that i look at like yeah i overcame that and now i'm never going back, man.

Well, the media has to craft a narrative. You know what I mean? Like, oh, here's a guy who did this, and now he's here. He succeeded. Right. So, that's what happens when you start doing a lot of interviews, which you have. Yeah. I'm sure when you read about how they characterize your story, you're like, yeah, it wasn't quite like that. You know, like, there's a lot.

We're going to get into all of this. quite like that you know like there's a lot we're going to get into all of this but i think there's a lot of parallels between um depression and and addiction in the sense that they're both highly stigmatized i think um addiction and recovery is kind of further down the line in terms of you know cultural acceptance and destigmatization of it that's a big word um yeah but in terms of like what you have to live with right and so i've seen articles about me let's say oh he overcame his addiction and then became this athlete right and some of them even like equate uh the dietary changes that i made as being instrumental in combating and overcoming addiction and i'm like that's not it all. And that was one of the reasons among many why,

I don't know if you've listened to my most recent podcast that I just put up like two days ago, but I related the story of relapsing in 2011, which I'd never talked about publicly before. It was a very, it was kind of in certain respects, like it was a super unsexy relapse like i was at an aa meeting that night and it involved like five or six beers you know so it wasn't like i went out and destroyed my life but it was devastating to me personally as somebody who had um cultivated

time and sobriety and and had gotten to this place where you know i was kind of a guy with time you know and the ego association that comes with that, carrying that mantle of somebody who's been sober for a long time and can kind of help new people, and then to have that kind of decimated and have to reset the clock and really confront the truth, which is that I am an alcoholic, and I will always be an alcoholic, and I will never overcome it. I live with it. I combat it.

I do the best that I can to live a sober life, but I'm hardly perfect in that regard. And there was a lot of shame over like not, you know, I was always open with it in AA, like my friends knew and all my friends in recovery and my family, you know, everybody who like is sort of in that world with me, like I'm very open about it.

I've shared about it from the podium at meetings and all that kind of stuff. But i'd never like talked about it on the podcast or with the media you know and i realized that was holding me back you know like so interesting i needed to like release myself of that shame and one way to do that would be to get over my fear of talking about it publicly so i did it on the podcast podcast. And I think it's relevant to today's conversation in the sense that you had to get to that place in your depression where in order to kind of confront the shame and the isolation that accompanied you

in that you realized that you had to talk about it, which I'm sure started off with a single conversation that ultimately snowballed into this viral TED Talk that kind of changed your life's trajectory. And we're going to get into all that. So why don't we start with just walking me through your life as a teenager in what would seem like a relatively kind of an idyllic upbringing initially like your outgoing kid yeah a lot of personality team captain you know doing well in school playing

basketball all this kind of stuff you know the idea that from the outside looking in you're like this kid's got no problems right yeah and that's you know it's interesting you say that because that's almost exactly what you're just talking about. Part of the narrative that like the media kind of built around the Ted talk, like from the early press was this sort of very cliche story of like, this guy had no prize. Life was perfect. You know, he's growing up upper middle class or something.

And I did have issues, you know, at home and dysfunction and family stuff, like just like anyone has, you know? And I think that that's an interesting thing that's sort of been attached to it is like, oh, man, I was so happy and so successful. And then I was struggling with depression, you know, but to sort of bring it back around. It's like, yeah,

I grew up in Victoria, BC, where I still live currently. And my home life was, you know, nothing outrageous, but not perfect by any sort of stretch of the imagination. And I think more than anything, I just really struggled with identity. Like, I just had a hard time understanding where I fit in. Like, I felt really sensitive as a kid, if that makes sense. Like, I felt really different from other kids. I relate to that completely. Yeah.

Like, I felt things really deeply. And things would really affect me. And even just things like seeing someone else get bullied like even if it wasn't me it just like really it would stick with me and i would have a really hard time like putting things down if that makes sense like i would just hold on to a lot of stuff you're an empath yeah yeah yeah yeah so i was like that was kind of this thing that was going on and i didn't know how to relate about that. I didn't know even how to talk about that at all. And I didn't even know what it was. I just, that was all I knew. That was who I was. And so I sort of had these small issues with identity like that, where I felt like I didn't fit

into the typical standard of like masculinity also. And I know that that's something you've talked about, like redefining masculinity and that sort of thing. And I think that was a big issue for me where, yeah, I played sports and I was somewhat popular and I was a class clown kind of outgoing person. But I didn't really feel like I fit in like culturally, like with what other guys wanted to do. And I played sports, but I never was like, oh, this is my whole existence or this is all I can see in the world. And so I just always felt sort of by the way they

play basketball in canada yeah yeah exactly right that's that's every sorry every conversation with a yeah someone who's driving a car for me in the states it's just yeah i can't believe that you live somewhere in canada where it doesn't snow so drive on the other side of the road yeah yeah yeah and so you know i just felt a little bit like isolated, I think, from peer groups, from fitting in. And I felt like someone who wanted to think about things. And, you know, when you're a teenager, it's like it's not the culture isn't necessarily set up to have deep conversations about anything. It's very surface. And high school can be a lot about hiding parts of yourself to sort of fit in.

And that's what people want is belonging and fitting in i didn't really feel like i had that and so i started to sort of struggle just like living a lot in isolation and i would remove myself from sort of like friends and whatnot and i was it was it noticeable i mean were people like yeah kevin's a little left of center or were you able to do it well and not like wear that mask enough where it's like oh he's a popular kid he's a happy kid yeah a little a little bit of both like i think you know maybe for my family it was more obvious but i would be so kind of um happy or wear that mask when i was in front of people they almost didn't really notice that i would sort of drift off or not really be there you know what i mean like i just had a way of sort of making it everything seemed like it was okay

when you were face to face with me and when I disappeared it was like who knows where that guy goes but when I see him again it's always all good and I would just spend a lot of time like literally you know talk about this in the book but it's like in my room and I would have these weeks that seemed to stretch on where I'd sleep into like noon or one and I would wake up and feel so anxious and like obviously I just missed half the day and didn't want to go to school and would skip school. And it would just sort of further this anxiety. And I just felt more and more like disconnected from what was happening like in high school.

And I think school was really easy for me. Like I was sort of smart enough to get through it, but it wasn't challenging. It wasn't stimulating. I kind of knew that I didn't want to necessarily pursue like a traditional straight line of education of like high school, college, get a job. And I always felt as very creative and like very driven to do something different. And so, I didn't really know

where that left me. And so, I sort of started to fall down this path that would be feeling like I was different, feeling like I was outcast. And that's when this sort of season of depression, when I was 15, 16, 17, started to sort of creep in. And it was just like, you don't belong here. You know what I mean? Like, you don't fit into this. You're not being authentic. Like, when you are having good connections, it's because you're hiding parts of yourself. And it was just like really devastating to feel like I was sort of playing this character. And that's sort of what I felt like like i was socially smart enough and aware enough to be like i know how to act to sort of fit in you know what i mean to not stand out but i wasn't being real and you just everyone just sort of intuitively knows that in themselves right i mean i think everybody

particularly in high school everybody's doing that to some extent and everybody's of course trying on different masks to try to figure out where they fit yeah what what works for them um but it sounds like this was a little bit more you know the volume was turned up a little bit more on you i mean that had to be you know confusing i was extremely confusing yeah it was extremely confusing and and everyone else just seemed so certain of like what their future would look like like everyone was just like i'm gonna finish high school and go to college and do this. And there was just this big gap there for me. And so I got into this sort of season of depression where it was like really, really, really, really heavy. And from there, it just kind of snowballed in the way that it does when you

don't talk about it and you don't share it. And it became this hidden thing. And so then there was like this twofold issue where there was myself personally dealing and sort of struggling with depression but then the bigger weight actually became not wanting anyone else to know there became almost this kind of like weird thrill or sense of accomplishment from like hiding it from people if that makes sense like not like not letting people in to see that being like i can pull this off yeah well there's like a bizarre kind of like adrenaline adrenaline rush that comes with that living that double life exactly i mean the parallels with addiction continue because this is what you the refrain in sobriety that you always hear is like i felt different everyone else had a roadmap for life or the blueprint and i never knew what i was doing and I couldn't really, I was a square peg in a round hole and I would isolate.

Right. You know, it's very, very similar. And I think that it becomes progressively isolating, right? And so, it sounds like, you know, from your description that this was kind of just a gradual progression. I mean, in a couple articles I read read about you there were two kind of inciting events right like you had a friend when you were 13 who died in a car crash and then your parents get divorced do you look at those as sort of formative catalysts in in kind of you know

uh you know creating kind of a snowball effect with the depression or is that overblown no maybe that's not a cause no we're gonna be depressed i yeah that happened or not you know in the book like the narrative really it goes from me being young to me being an early teenager to me being a late teenager and i certainly talk about the family stuff and like you know my dad was a very troubled person who struggled with his own mental health and his own addiction issues. And so, yeah, not having a positive male role model, I think, definitely affects any young boy. Right.

So, is he not around, like, not around physically or just emotionally? Yeah, no, not around physically. And when he was there physically, not at all there emotionally. Like, you know, passed out on the couch at 2, 3 p.m. drunk, you know. And never abusive, like like never allowed mean drunk or anything, but just someone who clearly had his own demons that he was fighting through and he just, you know, layered them in alcohol. And so, he just wasn't present at all and wasn't emotionally available in any capacity. And then my mom's the complete opposite where she's like the most

supportive, the most empathetic. So, it's it's sort of this you know thing where eventually my mom became like this big you know form of support for me and the home life was something that was dysfunctional but then manageable because my mom sort of loved me and my sister so much it counteracted almost for the other things how and your sister younger or older four years older yeah how's she doing great yeah yeah she do she's actually um she's been going to school to become a counselor so it's pretty interesting so yeah she's like really empathetic really smart really bright so the thing though that was an inciting incident for sure and this comes into the book as well is my friend jordan who is 13 and who's my best friend he passed away in a car

accident and part of it is that obviously the grief and just like the shock of losing someone you don't even know what death is when you're 13 like my grandparents had passed away before i was even born so i never really met them so i never really experienced any loss i mean our dog was still alive at the time like i just never gone through anything like that and there was this amazing sense of shock and of hurt and of pain but then there was also this other layer of sort of how it was dealt with and how it was discussed sort of in the community and this sort of like almost just sort of wanting to you know sweep it under the rug and just kind of move on and not really discuss it and not really express it let's

deny it deny it you know yeah it's a weird thing with death it makes people so uncomfortable so uncomfortable default to this you know place of of wanting to pretend that it's not a reality for all of us right and without getting into like too many private details like his his mom and her partner had been in the car and they both survived the crash and he was the only one in the whole accident who had died. And so there was this awful sense of like, why him? And you know what I mean? And all these sorts of things.

And there was just some comments made at the funeral that were very sort of outrageous or disrespectful or sort of strange. And it made it harder, obviously, to internalize it and deal with it. I didn't really know where to go. And so him and I, that was when we were supposed to be going into grade eight together. So we were about to share a locker. We were about to do high school together. then he passes away on july 19th and so then basically summer's getting you know almost over comes around i'm in eighth grade and i'm just sort of missing my friend but i'm around all these people who every day are going hey how are you doing man which is genuine and great but it was like this constant kind of

reminder of like wow like you know everyone's asking because he really is gone and he really was your best friend i mean he really was my best friend with it yeah yeah exactly and so and we had been very close and there was also this sense of like his family like him and his dad and his brother had kind of become the second family to me and when i lost him i felt like i lost a relationship with his dad as well and that relationship meant a lot to me because i didn't feel like I had a strong father figure. So, suddenly I sort of felt almost kicked out of his family too. You know what I mean? I went from being over there for sleepovers, you know, two, three times a week with another group of guys. It's just too painful. You're too strong of a reminder of what happened.

Of course. Yeah, of course. And so, that really was a triggering thing and that was something that i think just inside i was holding on to and had no ability to make sense of maybe even up until just a couple years ago like i really think it took me that long to really wrap my head around it one intellectually but just two on an emotional level of like acceptance and so that really was a big a big thing and a big part of the story was that i felt like this one person who had kind of understood me and knew me for who i really was had been taken away and i felt kind of betrayed by life or something and that was like this very heavy feeling to walk around with right so so where does the depression go from there so that's eighth grade so i'm at a i'm at a different height i'm at the high school we're supposed to go to at that point it's called oak bay high and i did a

year there and i go i can't do this you know i mean i can't be at this school around the same people and having these kind this is the constant reminder so i switch high schools i go to a different high school and at that point it'd be in ninth grade and it really becomes like a very prevalent thing late 10th grade and then 11th grade and 12th grade it's like unbelievable and just sort of and not and when i say unbelievable i don't mean like every day like i don't want to paint a picture it's like every day it was just this dark despair it was just that in waves yeah exactly and like and and for me like the way i really think about is like in seasons or just like in these moments where it'd be like three four six eight ten, eight, 10 weeks where it's like, wow, I can't get out from under this thing.

And then I would for a little bit and I would feel a bit lighter, a bit better. And then it would sort of swing back. And so when it really peaked out and really became, you know, extremely intense was when I was 17. And I basically went through this phase where in the so in around christmas time of my senior year i fell sort of into this this downward spiral of like just being really pessimistic about life and i was reading a lot of books that were about like new age kind of spiritual stuff and you know the power of now and things like this and like trying to sort of like develop myself but in that all i could see was like glass half empty thing and all it made me go was no one's awake no one's aware everyone's just going through life wearing these costumes having the opposite effect yeah no the literal yeah the literal opposite effect

and i started watching these documentaries about how i watch food inc and i am like i'm a vegetarian now and i gave away almost all of my clothes like Like I almost went a little bit manic, you know, like seeing into this really negative side of life. And so I remember after that Christmas, as a New Year's resolution, you know, this is really dark stuff, but I was like, if my life doesn't feel better in a year, I'm going to kill myself because I don't see the reason in being alive. Like I just don't see how this is meaningful. But you're not announcing this.

No, no. You know, this is all like on the inside. on the inside but oh completely but you know how is this manifesting it you're in the in the external world like his mom's freaking out not fully because she doesn't really fully know the depth because i kind of at this point i'm deceiving everyone including myself right but if you can't get out of bed like you know or that's the thing she would leave she would leave to work early in the morning just assume that i was going to school like i became really good at like like i would beat her home to get the voicemail that would tell her that i hadn't been at school to delete it and i would erase the caller id like i was like crafty oh yeah like i was taking it to an extreme level so that no one could see into this. Yeah, so not only are you not communicating about what's going on,

you're going to extreme measures to prevent anyone from knowing anything about it, which is making the opportunity to help you even more distant. Yeah, like I had a journal, which is sort of where the whole idea for the book came, that I was like recording in through the whole time. And I would literally, every day after I would write in it I was so afraid that my mom or my sister might come into the room and like just see it and start reading it because there's so much honesty it was like the only place I was honest in this journal I would go into the closet and I had this shoe box in there filled with all this old writing from when I was like really young just

loose leaf paper and I would open the shoe box take the loose leaf paper and put it on the very bottom right so that even if you were to go in there you'd go oh that young, just loose leaf paper. And I would open the shoe box, take the loose leaf paper and put it on the very bottom. So that even if you were to go in there, you'd go, oh, that's just old loose leaf paper. And that's like where my journal was. So like I was really going out of my way to hide it. And so after the new year, about a month and a half went by. It was the middle of February. And I just literally lost the will to even think about how to continue any further.

Like, I was just like, this is ridiculous. I'm wasting my own time. I think that I'm the only one maybe who sees that life is meaningless. Like, just the most dark kind of low thoughts you could ever experience. But are you still showing up for basketball practice and playing a game? Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah.

And where's the comedy at this point? The comedy for me? Yeah, like, you know, meanwhile, you know, you're harboring this dream of being an entertainer. Yeah, right, right. Comic, right? I mean, had you started to, you know, take measures to make that happen?

No, that was like the spark that honestly kept me going. So, like, in my senior year, I got into this drama class, and it was just to really kill time and get some credits. And I didn't like acting. I didn't like reading lines. But then one day, the teacher, his name's Mr. Kemp. He's an amazing guy. And he said, he's like, hey, you guys can do a scene where you just improv.

And I didn't know what that was. I didn't know what it was to just sort of make stuff up in the moment. And we started doing these scenes and making stuff up, and I just found myself having so much fun. And it was like this one little spark. And I was like, wow, that's really cool. But I want to do that in a different way. And I started watching so much stand-up.

And so in that February, this will all connect here. So in that February, on February 26, we finished playing a tournament for basketball. My family stays up Island. It's about a 90 minute, two hour drive from where we live. Up Island. Yeah, up Island. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I come back down on the team bus. Everyone's going out to like celebrate and to party or whatever. I go to a friend's house of mine. It was like two blocks from where I live. He was having just a, you know, a little get together. There's

people there drinking. I go and I'm standing in the corner of his house and there's all these kids my own age. I know all of them and they're all just having so much fun. And it really seemed authentic. Like it really seemed like they were really having fun and really in that moment and really enjoying it. And I just remember standing in the corner and watching that and just going, I'll never, I'll never get that. Like, I'll never understand how we could just be here and like, enjoy this. Like, as weird as that sounds, I couldn't wrap my head around it. Like you're watching some weird movie that you just can't connect with.

Yeah. And I'm a character who doesn't know what, where I fit into the storyline. Like, I don't know what my subplot is. I'm just standing there being like, I don't know how I'm like these people. And so, I literally left the party, went home, went into my room room took out a piece of paper took out a pen wrote a suicide note and i just really planned to take an entire bottle of pills that night and just be done what kind of pills where'd you get the pills i just all i knew was that i thought you could take a bunch of tylenol uh-huh and that was all i knew and that wouldn't have ended so well yeah all i had was

vodka and you know a bunch of painkillers essentially like pharmaceutical painkillers that were like t3s like not just like over the counter the hardcore time yeah yeah yeah exactly that my mom had like had in the back of the cupboard from like a dental surgery or something like that were old and that was all i knew and so i was sitting there and i wrote out this note and it was just as, I mean, as cliche as it sounds, this moment of kind of awakening when I put everything onto the piece of paper, it almost seemed insignificant in some ways. Like it seemed like the stuff that I'd been so caught up in and so lost in was manageable or like changeable or like a shift of perspective could influence it because everything that

was on the page was like, I feel like no one gets perspective could influence it because everything that was on the page was like i feel like no one gets me i feel like i'm so alone i feel like but i'm like i put myself like i'm the one who's making like just staying in my room you know what i mean like i'm the one who's like right you had you were able to to have the objectivity to understand that you are the causal element in why people didn't understand yeah exactly exactly it's interesting because you were you were journaling all along, but you weren't able to have that level of awareness. But it was just angry.

It was just angry. It was just like, this is why I'm right, and this is why the world's wrong. It was filled with angst and frustration. It wasn't just... You're also a teenager. Yeah, yeah, exactly. And that's a big part of it.

You're parsing out what's just being a teenager from what is something that's more exactly and that was the heart that was like what you just said there actually hits it on the head so well because some of it literally was just growing up and in hindsight like understanding that like it literally was just like figuring out identity and who i wanted to be and all those things and so there was all this confusion but i was attaching it to that feeling of pain and that feeling of depression and going, this is why everything sucks. And so, when I wrote out that note, everything on there, like you said, I could finally look at it sort of objectively.

And I was just like, this is borderline ridiculous. Like, I've painted myself into this corner and now I'm painting myself as the victim. You know, like as if the world's out to get me. And really, I had just just i wasn't living a real life like i was sleeping until noon in bed not going to school not talking to anyone i had no sense of community i had no sense of friendships i just i wasn't helping myself at all right and you kept it so private that there wasn't enough indication to your mom or anyone else who could so somebody could intervene and say hey let's go i think you need to talk to somebody right let's go see a shrink or a therapist yeah and

certainly like when i was 13 and i had lost my friend jordan i had done a year of counseling at the high school and they'd made me do that they're like you got to do grief counseling and my counselor was named alan york and he was this amazing guy who was like tough and made me accountable and all these things and when i left part of the reason I had left was to escape that accountability. And I let myself sort of fall through the cracks. Was he able to identify though, at that point that you had a depression problem that perhaps transcended some survivor guilt over your friend's passing? Yeah. One time him and my mom were in the office together. He called my mom in because he was so worried about me and he had never done that before. And he brought her into the office and he kind of asked me to leave so

they could talk. And my mom told me later, he said to her, he's like, do you think that he wants to be with Jordan? And she nodded her head and was like, yeah. And so like the signs were there and like my mom was clued in and my mom's very smart. And she knew but it was just when it got later i was so piercingly convincing with sort of the deception that you sort of wanted to i'm sure you just want to take your kid at their word i don't know i don't have kids but it's just i'm assuming well it's interesting because you would think like if somebody's having this problem you're going to be a you're going to be able to see it and b at some point there's going to be a cry for help right and but what you don't expect is that someone's going to go to extreme lengths to prevent you from knowing about it like i can understand that in addiction because if you get

caught like you know it's like oh you know oh you're doing all these drugs or whatever like there's repercussions to that but i would not have expected that with depression so that's super interesting well and i and i don't necessarily think that that's a commentary at all on everyone like i think it has a lot to do with my own personality and my own maybe wanting people to think i'm more complete than i am or you know i mean i think there's a lot of insecurity in that or at least there was because very much so i did kind of thrive off um approval and off people going like hey you're really good at this or like hey you're a funny guy you know and that was something that um i really needed like i think i was so sort of maybe broken or

confused or hurt that like i really did thrive off compliments and people being like oh you're really funny your identity uh you know being propped up and constructed by externalities as opposed to how you feel about yourself. Yeah, because I had no internal compass. So, it's just like, yeah, everything, all validation, all self-worth, yeah, was totally coming from the outside. And so, yeah, so in that moment, writing that suicide note, it was like this changing thing. And I mean, I know that maybe sounds cliche, but it was just a very eye-opening raw moment where i was like this is a definite you know if this is a parallel to addiction like this is a definite bottom you know and this is a moment that like this needs to change and that was when i

realized i needed to go back to counseling and to you know to talk and just to really be honest about it more than anything i think was the thing that like i just needed to get out there right it was a window of opportunity that's. And you had enough awareness to actually take action on that. Yeah. And I think the main thing is, is not that like I was so deep or smart or anything, but just that I realized I was making myself the victim. And that was something that just didn't work with my psychology because I had always worked really hard at things. Like when I was younger, like 10, 11, 12, I'd played competitive chess, which some people don't even know it's a thing, but like it is a thing. And I would, you know, study for hours and in sport I would train for hours. So, I was

used to like working hard and like taking ownership for my own life in a certain way. And I just had been so blind to the fact that I had been sort of making myself this victim of culture and of society and of what I thought other people might think of me. And when I kind of realized that that was enough for me to go, okay, like, I can't do that. Like, if life's going to be hard, and if life's going to be heavy, that's okay. But it can't be because I'm victimizing myself, if that makes sense. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, what did you do? Did you call Alan up? Or like, what was the next thing? Yeah, I did talk to him. And obviously the first conversation was with my mom.

It was just kind of like this come clean sort of moment on everything. And all this stuff. Did you tell her exactly what you had done? Like that what you were or did you just. I kind of skirted around it, to be honest, because of shame, maybe. Like I was more just like, you know, this has been going on for a while, blah, blah, blah. And it took a while for me to really come clean to her about just how intense like the suicidal sort of thoughts had been and even writing a suicide note and stuff but it was it was at least a big step forward to like half of the conversation

and then i started going to a different counselor who i still see whether i'm on the road i do it on skype and if i'm in town i do it in person and i met with him. And that was a huge changing moment for my entire life. Because one, like, yeah, he's a very bright, smart guy. And I talked about him a lot in the book. But also, he just became this mirror for me to like, really see into myself. And he just really would hold up these moments and be like, what's at the bottom of that? Like, what's underneath that? And no one had challenged me like that. And i think the one thing that was difficult for me is i was i was ahead of where a lot of my friends were intellectually when i was young so i could win arguments you know what i mean like just through intellect and if someone were to challenge me or to go here's maybe a flaw of yours or insecurity

i was very quick with it and i could come back and i had answers and excuses and that's all a defense mechanism of course it's a massive defense mechanism and when I went to as counselor Dr. Betts he was the one who for the first time could break that down because this was a guy who was not only smarter than me but who knew psychology and who knew exactly what I was trying to do and let me know that you're in trouble now right exactly no exactly but it was so refreshing like it was so refreshing to be in that environment because it was like oh my goodness like i'm so happy that i can't just lie anymore i'm so happy i can't just sort of like cheat my way out of situations i'm so happy i can't just use words to sort of escape a deeper thing you know and it was actually really

refreshing and it was really nice to be like yeah like call me out on my own bullshit you know bullshit, you know, like, make me aware of like, what's happening. And so, it was a huge moment. Pete Well, that's the way that you can deconstruct the denial, right? So, that you can see yourself more objectively. I mean, was there a specific, like, psychological philosophy behind it? Like, Jungian? Pete Yeah, he's a Jungianist. Yeah, yeah, exactly. So, there was some stuff like, where he helped me analyze some of my dreams and some stuff that was like a little bit more out there but most of it honestly was just him using his background doing it for 20 years he's written a bunch of papers he's you know lectured all over the world and just using that experience and what

he knew to just sort of help guide me down these different avenues of my own of my own mind and that was really so how often were you going to see i was going once a week when i really you know needed it a lot and it was it was extremely helpful and it was just something that it changed it changed my mindset and how long did it take before at least like the intense part of the black cloud started to part honestly like faster than i even expected possible i think because the relief of yeah like now i'm yeah just a simple act of beginning to talk about it and i can just be myself like that was the thing that was missing the whole time was i was just like trying to play

this character or what i thought i should be doing and then when i could come there and sit in his office i was just in this space of total freedom and total acceptance. And I truly feel like he's never judged me, maybe inside, but he's never let me know that. And that was the most powerful thing, just to sit there and to be able to share all these things. And he just came from a place of no judgment. And it was so freeing. It was like, yeah, I can just let go of this stuff now.

I don't need to hold on to it. It's a weird thing, too, when you go into a therapist's office or a psychiatrist or whoever and because i've done this like when i was in the throes of my addiction and and not being so disconnected from myself that i didn't even know quite how to be honest so i would tell them what i thought they wanted to hear about me yeah you know it's like and then i'm like and then you realize like i'm seeking the approval of this person who's trying to help me who can't help me unless i'm willing to be honest but i'm not willing to be honest oh man that hits way too close to home yeah no no because that's the thing

is like he would help me see something in myself and i would go oh that's the deepest layer you know what i mean like that's the deepest thing that i could find in all of this or whatever and then he would sort of push me towards something else and i would do that exact same thing where i'd kind of give an answer that i thought you'd maybe want to hear and that's what i mean by like calling me out of my own bullshit it was just like he would know that like that wasn't really real and he wouldn't push too hard but we'd just come back to it and just come back to it. And it was so helpful to understand that, like, I had some of these complexes where I really wanted approval and I really wanted acceptance and all these things. And maybe that came from, you know, not getting

attention that I wanted at home or, you know, in early elementary school being bullied or something, you know, and it was just like, there was was some there was some real good realizations there yeah i mean i think it presupposes i mean i think that the the mistake that a lot of people make is that i mean how do i phrase this when you said you know i could just be me yeah it that presupposes that you had an idea of who that person is yeah but i would imagine that you probably didn't. The work goes into, when you peel back those layers, that's when you start to connect with who that person is and getting to know who that person is, right? So when you're in there and you're bullshitting

or you're running your program, you're not consciously aware that you're doing it and you think that you're being who you are. You think you're being authentic. Right. Yeah. And it's a process of dismantling that to understand that there's a there's a different guy underneath that right that maybe you haven't quite met yet yeah no that's a perfect way of putting it and that

i think is what i mean by it felt so freeing because it felt like i'd been confined to the character of who i thought i was and when i went to counseling and stuff and started to do some work on myself, I realized I didn't have to hold up to that standard. Like I didn't have to live my life that way. I didn't have to pretend that way. And I can just kind of be me. And even though it wasn't anything special or mind blowing, it was just amazingly freeing. And I think that that's something I've tried to sort of continue with me is that I don't want to try and live up to my own expectations of like how I think I need to be like, I don't want to try and live up to my own expectations of like how I think I need to be like, I just really want to try and be actually who I am, or, you know,

and I think that that's been extremely helpful. And maybe like the biggest takeaway from all of it is just, you don't have to be this character. Right. And so, so how long was it before you could kind of take this into the world, like world and just embrace it publicly, right? Yeah. It's one thing to go into this guy's office and start spilling out. It's another thing to show up at basketball practice and go, sorry I was late. I was at therapy. It was amazing.

I started telling him about this. Yeah, that's a great bumper sticker. I talked about my problems with a professional. Yeah, yeah. So here's the curveball maybe in the story. Even though I felt like I was changing or evolving or becoming a better person, that culture and that community of being at high school still really didn't fit and still felt really inauthentic and i when i was going to counseling like and this is like so you know february march april kind of thing i was watching so much comedy and i just fell in love with comedy it's like this is what i want to do and so the day the basketball ended was on a saturday afternoon we drove home sunday and on monday i dropped out of high school and i was like i'm gonna do stand-up which is just the most ridiculous thing you could ever.

What does your mom say? Yeah, exactly. Right. Like it just, just has really no words for it. But at the same time, sort of was so empathetic and understanding that she was like,

you know, I'm guessing in her mind, she was like, maybe this is just a phase and he's going to, you know, like I was like three and a half months away from finishing my diploma like it was just the most ridiculous like three months just come on just finish it yeah right exactly but this is kind of also maybe a really weird personality trait i have but i feel sometimes like if my back's not against the wall like if i give myself

a plan b i just feel like i'll take it and so i really in my mind was like i want to not have a high school degree so that i literally can't get a job and i have to do this like that's sort of how it would be one thing if you had been doing stand-up even if in your bathroom mirror for the last five years but this was just like a new idea i mean it could have easily just passed a month later exactly i mean like it wasn't like it just came totally out of nowhere like certainly for maybe two or three years i'd been like oh that would be like really cool but it really wasn't until that senior year doing that drama class with mr kemp and like 20 other people who probably didn't want to be there that i was like oh this is possible and he gave me a lot of encouragement he was like you're really good like on the fly and you can really think on

your feet and so i assume there was no uh drama class happening in the last three and a half months because i had there been exactly at least no that was first semester no you've got this whole thing figured out man you've got this whole thing figured out so i drop out of high school and i start sneaking into this comedy club and there's only one comedy club in victoria bc and it's called hecklers which is of course it's the way yeah exactly and so what they would do is they would have something called ratfish open mic on tuesdays this is the actual name of it and there was the club to the right and then there was this terrible dirty awful hotel to the left of it and they would rent out the bar of this hotel and they

would do open mic comedy there's only one problem and that was that you needed to be 19 years old to do it and i was 17 because you have to be drinking age and drinking age where i live 19 so i wasn't old enough but i'm 6 6 and i you know would just pretend that i was and so i would show up there and i they would go the person at the door asks you because anyone can perform like if you're an accountant or like whatever you can go up there so they go are you here to perform are you here to watch and i go i'm here to perform i just say it really confidently and i'd sort of get through and whatever and so you would you would get a two minute spot and then the red light in the back of the room would come on so i would follow like i remember

one time i followed a math teacher who had brought, like, 15 of his students. He was, like, a university professor. He brought, like, 15 of his students, like, to the club. And he was doing math-based humor. Like, humor that was, like, so above, like, what you or I might know about mathematics. You couldn't even follow it. He was just pitching, basically, his math joke. Like in a Demetri Martin kind of way?

Yes. Like, you know, like you know like see exactly like that like just a deadpan one-liner witty ironic jokes about math that 15 people out of maybe a hundred right even understood and then i would follow that and so i was doing this for a few weeks and then one time i go up there and i was working on this like ridiculous bit about um why being a teenager was really hard. I can't even remember exactly where it went. But at one point, I was like, and that's why being 17 is just so ridiculous.

And the guy who ran the thing comes up to me every day. He's like, dude, are you 17 years old? No, that's just part of my act. No, literally. And so he asked to see my ID. And so I show him my ID. And he's like, you can't come here. Like, that's not cool.

It's illegal. So I wasn't able to go back. And so I'm like, oh my gosh, I've dropped out of high school. The one place I thought I could perform, I can't. I'm making exactly no money doing this. Nobody even knows I do it. It's just in my head. I just go and perform for 40 people on a Tuesday night.

And then I drive back to my mom's house. and so i sort of had to figure something out and i started like being like how do comedians like make money who aren't super duper famous and i found out a lot of them do college gigs and so i started like emailing like 500 colleges being like hey could i come like perform at your college finally i have a solid two minutes yeah yeah i got a tight two if you need a tight two i'm your guy and so finally one of the mess like how much do you charge for that i was like i didn't even know that was like a thing and so that was kind of like the entry into it and so i started doing stand-up at colleges and then one time i saw that before i was doing like i would do a show where it was like at uh at a culture would be like a variety show and there'd be like some like acoustic guitar type guy and me doing jokes and i found out that there was someone who was coming

to speak on campus like a week later or something it was like a really big deal i forget who the guy was but it was supposed to be this really big speech and it's ironic because right after that i read an article about who we're talking about the beginning josh ship and it was in ink magazine it was like this piece that had been in the magazine and then online. And it was the 30 under 30 list and he was on it. And it talked about how he had done really well in speaking. And I was like blown away by this. I'd never really knew that speaking was like a thing or whatever. And I see this guy at a college doing it and I read this article about Josh and how he's done it. And it was just sort of fascinated me. And so, I had a conversation with my old English

teacher and I was just talking about where I was so i had a conversation with my old english teacher and i was just talking about where i was at in life and he's like you got to come back to high school man like you just got to like accept reality like you can't just drop out at 17 and become a comedian and we started talking and we started talking about a bit about my story and a bit about the stuff with depression and he stops and he goes he's like now that's really interesting and i was like what do you mean and he's like your personal story like who you are like the stuff that you really struggled with and i was like like to bring into my act and he's like no like just to talk about that like that'd be really fascinating

and i was like no man like i'm not discussing that like like you said it's one thing to go to counseling right sit in a room but i'm not talking about that and then literally four weeks later a girl named amanda todd who was 17 years old and lived in Vancouver, just outside of my community, took her own life. And it was the most eye-opening moment. She a friend of you? Somebody you knew? No, not at all. Not at all. But it was just the most eye-opening moment I had ever had of that this was like bigger than me, that this affected other people. Like as ridiculous as it sounds, I never really thought about that. Like I just sort of thought about how it impacted me

and how it impacted my life, but I never thought about how it mattered in the world. And so she took her own life and became this news story. And then they found this YouTube video of her where she was sitting in her room and she doesn't talk, but she has these little cue cards of things that she's written about herself on them. And she just sort of pulls one of them back after another in front of the camera. And one of them was, I feel so alone. And just the look on her face when she pulled back that card and looking at her and just remembering that feeling like not too long ago for myself, it just really hit me.

And I was like, wow, like this is something that people are really struggling with. And so I brought it up with a few of my friends at the time. And I was just like, hey, like, you know, what do you guys think about this conversation and depression and all this stuff? And it blew my mind that like, if I had 10 buddies, nine of them were like, oh, I've struggled with this or like, oh, I relate to that or whatever. Right. And these are all guys who I had no clue that that'd be true for them. And so I really got it in my head at that point that I was like, wow, maybe my English teacher, Mr. Zadmary, is right. Like, maybe I should share this story in some capacity. And so, there was a TEDx event happening in Vancouver,

and it was for young kids. And a friend of mine who's a little bit older and had done a TEDx himself, he was like, I'm going to nominate you for this. Like, you should do this, you know? And I was like. Meanwhile, you've been up at Heckler's. Heckler's, killing it. And that's pretty much about it. Crushing it. It's not like you had completed a college tour of speaking about depression and sharing your story.

No, I hadn't. Had you given any presentations on it yet? Well, so this is what happens. So the TED talk comes through, and they're like, you should do it, right? They're like, we want you to do it. And I it i'm like great so then it's like a few months away so i'm like i gotta like practice right so i went to like a community center and i like spoke to like 10 people who are like drinking lemonade and then i went back to my old high school and i talked to mr zazemary's class and i did like three or four you, maximum sort of 10 of these sort of talks.

And they were all really short. And they were just terrible, keep in mind. Did you get in touch with Josh? At this point? Yeah. No. No, no, no. But you knew who he was.

Oh, he was just a massive inspiration. Right, right. It was just like, oh, wow. Because the real reason, not just because he was a speaker who had like made some money doing it or something, but because he was a personal story speaker. Like he was sharing stuff about like his upbringing which was very traumatic and that just really inspired me and so at this point yeah no i have no connections to anyone at all and i do it a few times and then i go to do the tedx event and you do like a run through you know i mean you're supposed to do your talk in front of everyone so i do it and i like finish it and this was like a

rough version of what it ended up being and everyone in the room everyone all the event organized just look at me and they're like yeah you can't do that talk like they're just like that's way too heavy like that's way too real they're like there's kids in the audience here it was a tedx youth event you know like you can't do that so like you need to think about what you want to do. And I'm like, well, what, like, could I talk about? And they're like, well, like, at the time I had, like, Twitter. And I'd, like, write jokes on Twitter. And people would, like, sometimes retweet them. And that was probably the most successful thing I'd ever done in comedy at that point was have, like, a joke that had been retweeted 100 times.

That was, like, a highlight, right? So, they were like, well, you're really funny on Twitter. So, why don't you talk about social media? And I'm like, what? So, I didn't really know what to do. I go home, I think about it, talk to a few people and I'm just like, yeah, like I really want to do this talk. And they're like, well, we don't want you to do that talk. And so I literally, and this is like, I never actually shared this story in a public format before. So this is the first time, but I literally said i was going to

talk about social media and went on stage and just gave the talk that's amazing so if you watch how close was the talk that you gave to the one that you rehearsed in front of them it wasn't even that close it was way lighter than the one that i actually did yeah so picture this if anyone's watched the ted talk and you've seen it you'll never see the camera go above my head in the video there's a white screen behind me you'll never see it go above because when i came out there was a title on the screen for the talk i was supposed to be doing now the talk i was supposed to be doing was on social media but get this i had a fake title for that talk and i come out and i look at what's behind me it says the power of learning in the future

with kevin breal so they had fake titled my fake title. So I'm up there giving this talk about my story. It is interesting because when I watch it, I go, yeah, the framing is all off on this and there's some weird cuts. But I just chalked it up because I'm like, what's weird about it is that the talk is on the main TED Talk page, right? Because usually for people that are uninitiated there's a million tedx events yes and they're all independently hosted right and then

they can put up their videos on their own youtube channel their own yeah so it's very rare that a ted talk from a tedx actually gets kind of booted up yeah the chain and is actually on ted.com yeah um which yours is yeah uh because it went crazy viral which we're going to talk about but i'm watching it i'm like this is kind of a hacky thing and i'm like i'm like what where did i was like where did he do this this is not at like the major ted conference this is a tedx kids ambleside the highly prestigious tedx kids ambbleside I'm like where is Ambleside like how many people were even at this event

you know like 80 so it's like the stars were not aligned for this TED talk to do anything except see maybe a couple hundred people watch it and the very first comment on the TED talk when it comes online is the first comment ever on the talk is someone just goes, this guy's a bore.

And that's what I thought. So it must have gone up on the TEDx page first, initially, right on their YouTube or whatever? Right. So, yeah. So I literally give the talk. I go off. And the talk somehow gets a standing ovation. Like, if you watch the video, there's like a weird kind of standing ovation that happens.

Did you lock eyes with any of the organizers yes of course in the middle of the talk and are they looking at the anchor yeah it was like so real but then it got so personal and so real and it was like almost so human that it turned everyone and so this is the craziest thing so i finished the talk i go off i'm like i'm expecting to just get chewed out by these people and they're like that was amazing like one of the women has like tears in her eyes. She's like, I relate to that. Like, I can't believe you did that. So they kind of like weirdly respected it. So then it goes online, like you said, on the prestigious TEDx.

How long before, how long after the talk? Exactly four weeks. So the talk was like May 17th, I think it came out June 17th. And then, and before we get to that though, though so so when you have to go face to face with the organizers right afterwards like what do they say to you they were they loved it that was the most wild part they weren't holding on to this idea that you had somehow betrayed them no no but when i like when you asked like did you lock eyes with them when i was like two minutes into it yes that was the look on their face was like oh my gosh i can't believe you're doing this

for real like that's ridiculous i mean when it when it was for kids i mean with our little kids yes yes yes 10 year olds yes yes yes exactly how many people were in the audience like 80 man like small yeah but it's like it's like a 10 year old kid and his two parents then like another 11 year old kid they're two parents like there another 11 year old kid they're two parents like there was an eight year old who spoke at this event well this had to be the biggest thing going on in ambleside that day right so the only thing yeah so so yeah so then the talk comes out like four weeks later the first comment on it is this guy's a bore and that's literally where i thought the talk was gonna go like i was oh my gosh. Because sometimes when the first person comments,

that sets the tone for everybody who's going to comment afterwards. Exactly. And here's the other thing that I really was nervous about is TED Talks typically are amazing life hacks. You know what I mean? Here's how to become an entrepreneur in 30 seconds. It's very achiever-based. It's very like you guys got to go out and be successful.

Or here's this counterintuitive idea that goes against everything you ever thought was true. Right, right. But it's all highly intellectual. It's not emotional. You know what I mean? For the most part. There's only a few talks. There's a couple exceptions.

Like Brene Brown. Yeah, there's some exceptions. But those talks were like the massive ones. And so to me, I was like, this could go really bad so it comes online and at first it's like you know like you said it's like a few hundred people watching it and and most tedx talks because there's so many now i mean there's 38 000 yeah this was 2013 so you know quite a bit quite a quite quite a bit less but still most of them you know end up getting you know maybe a couple hundred, a couple thousand. Like friends and family.

It's rare that there's a breakout. Everyone's like, oh, TED Talk. But a lot of them just are in obscurity on the internet somewhere. Of course. Yeah, of course. And that's exactly what I thought this was going to be. Because just from the whole arc of the whole thing and how it had gone. And so then, weirdly, what starts to happen is people start

to just watch it because ted does have a really big community so it gets like a thousand views two thousand three thousand whatever and then progressively people start to share the talk but the thing that was interesting about it was when i would see them share it they would go hey this is my story or hey i really relate to this like it was less about me and like more about them and it started to have this really wild effect because i think if you think about it these are just normal people at first sharing it right so people with like 100 twitter followers but if you think about it if you saw someone who's like your friend share something go hey this is my story kind of makes you want to click on it because you're more interested in them

than like the guy actually talking you're like well, well, this relates to my buddy now, right? So I'm going to watch this. And so I started noticing this sort of like narrative that people weren't sharing it being like, what an awesome talk. They were just kind of being like, this relates to me. Right. They're connecting to it in a human way. And so then what happened is it just kind of tipped over from there where it started going around. And then a few media outlets picked it up and sort of shared it with the same thing and then up where the website grabbed a hold

of it you know they're really great at like clickbait titles you know what i mean and so the title that they put on it was this kid thinks we could save so many lives if we were just able to say four words and the four words where i struggle with depression and they put that up and so this is where it gets really interesting goes back to the sort of tedx ambleside how the whole thing was done the talk if you watched it on your phone or on your tablet had no sound the sound didn't work on mobile or on ipads only on desktop so upworthy has millions of fans right and so there's at one point they put it on their facebook and there's 2 000 comments under it and i'm not kidding a thousand of them is i can't hear this there's no audio on this oh

wow and so it's like this nightmare and so up for the like emails means like hey like this is making us look really bad like we're gonna have to take this down like if we can't fix it and so we were able to get this other version of the audio so we put up a version that's still on there it's called fixed audio it's another version of my ted talk and when they put that back up all these people who are almost curious as to what that clickbait type title had been and not been able to hear the sound watched it and it was just this avalanche effect from there where there's just just went outwards yeah that's crazy i mean i i saw the upworthy uh page and i noticed they're like updated now we have uh the one with yes exactly I wonder what happened um so it was really upworthy was kind of like the linchpin yes for sure catalyzed it

into the stratosphere no for sure and I'm super grateful for that because I think their audience was perfect for it it was like millennial kids who want to change the world right you know and so it's kind of ideal and it's kind of perfect and then from there it just kind of trickled down to other outlets and then the next biggest thing was like mashable called it one of the moments that brought the world together and they put it in this big montage with like some really important stuff and that gave it a lot of extra weight because it was like whoa like it seemed like a big thing right it's crazy so to date it's clocked over two million views which puts it out there with one of the most watched

yeah ever yeah which is wild and the thing about the views that's really funny is no one really seems to have a good idea because like on ted it says 2 million but if you look on the other pages like there's people have put it in media being like well there's 4 million because it's 2 million on ted and 2 million on youtube so it's like this is no real quite no well some people just they rip those videos and then put them up elsewhere so it populates the internet in different places but it's like it's just those once those numbers get that big you don't even really know what they mean or how to quantify them but it was just yeah like there was a lot a lot of people who watched it around the time that it came out and the thing that really connected with me the most and the thing that i

took from that to sort of try and parlay into the book was it was just honest and it wasn't trying to be anything that it wasn't. And I think that's what made people kind of connect with it because it's almost like what we were talking about. People just want to be themselves. Like you just want to go into that counselor's office and have freedom. And I think that that talk for people gave them a little bit of freedom because for someone who maybe couldn't put words to some of their struggle or some of their confusion, they could now just share this link to this 10 minute talk and it kind of helped explain them like does that make sense like it was like yeah i mean we've we've said everything almost there is to say about your ted talk except what you actually talked about in your ted talk right

so i mean a lot of people will have already watched it um and may have already seen it before this but but you know let's break that down a little bit. I mean, essentially, you know, in a nutshell, you're telling your story in 10 minutes. And it's sort of a call to action or a plea for everybody to kind of, you know, bring this condition into the light and talk about it because, know the sort of isolation and the darkness you know breeds you know breeds this disease and it's so stigmatized and if we can just talk about it and like own it in a public forum and admit that this is a problem and encourage other people who are suffering to talk about it and make people feel comfortable talking about it um that we can solve this problem together yeah fair

characterization that's really good like the quotable that kind of came out of it that seemed to stick the most and we turned this into a poster with a really great non-profit called to write love on our arms who's helped like millions of people who struggle with depression and addiction stuff and the the sort of thing that i think really summarizes there's a quote in there it says the world i believe it is one where embracing your light doesn't mean ignoring your dark and i think that that kind of summarized the talk you know it was just to be like yeah like you said like you can just own it and you can just be real about it and be honest and it doesn't diminish who you are and i think that that was like the big takeaway for myself and maybe for a lot of

other people or hopefully was just that you can be like a multi-layered person you know like you don't just have to be one way like you can you can feel both sides of life right and i think interlaced throughout that and i think why the talk is so potent and powerful is not because you're giving advice it's because you were sharing your story and you were doing it in a in a truly honest and authentic way so much that you're like, literally, I can see you fighting back the tears. Like you're getting emotional as you're talking about it. And it looked like something that you had spent a lot of time, you know, not, it didn't look rehearsed at all. It looked like you just got up there and was like, all right, how do I feel about this?

And you just spit out this thing. Yeah. But it was so well done and you hit all the points that you needed to hit like it was like this guy like knows how to give a talk man like you really were able to like you know get right to the heart of what was important to address without doing it in a in any kind of preachy way whatsoever yeah and that was like the big goal because i didn't want to come across that way and I think that part of that bleeds into sort of the comedy world, which is like a very real world and where guru type stuff is like not like seen as very good.

And there's not really like people have tried to do like comedy classes and stuff before. And it just gets torn apart in the community because they're like, no, like that doesn't seem authentic. And so there was almost a part of that that worked out well, and that's why the talk is called Confessions of a Depressed Comic, is almost because there is this parlay of like, that's what makes good comedy good, in my opinion, is just truth.

And Chris Rock has a quote like, you can make people laugh if you just say the truth in an unexpected way. And I think that that was like a lot of what came into the TED Talk, even though it's not funny, it's just serious, was just to, yeah, be honest. And I think that that that is cliche or simple as it might sound is tricky you know it's hard to do well i think as as someone who uh you know struggled with a sense of you know personal identity and and somebody who like was prone to isolating and all of that to be able to get up on a stage even if there was only 80 people and know that it's being filmed for ted um that's an intimidating thing right and you did you

displayed zero indicia of looking nervous or stumbling or anything like that like you really own the stage um i mean does this go back to high school drama i mean it goes back to heckler's man like i said like like josh ship is a master you know he gets up and he can command an audience in a really poetic and beautiful way but he's also put in a lot of hours you know to get to that place but this was like your first speaking gig almost you know other than hecklers yeah yeah yeah or like a community center like attribute that to well um i did write the talk like it wasn't just riffed in the moment. I did write it because I knew I only had so much time.

And that was what kind of freaked me out, was being like, you're working against hardcore. So I had 11 minutes and it needed to be tight. So I did write out what I wanted to say. But I think that for me, one thing that allowed me to do comedy was also almost, no one really ever told me when i was growing up that you should be afraid of being on stage like i know that for some people that's like a big thing like they say like

oh public speaking is like people's number one fear no one really ever told me to like be afraid of that as a kid so i was almost so naive that i was like why would you be afraid of that like it's like talking to one person times one person times like that's really how i saw it so i never really had any fear when it came to doing stand-up, when it came to doing the TED Talk. Like, it was almost because I didn't buy into it. That's interesting, because stand-up's terrifying. Yeah, but it was... I think I have nothing more terrifying. in my favor you know i didn't think i had anything to be afraid of even though i definitely should have felt like i did and so it just kind of helped and i think that that was sort of the same effect

with the ted talk because i didn't really know to be afraid and in hindsight if i'd known that many people would watch it i probably would have never been that honest you know what i mean it's a catch-22 where it's like when you do sort of thing who says 80 people in a room and a couple people might watch it it's a lot easier almost to be super honest right if you're like two million people are going to see this you're going to start editing yourself yeah yeah like there's a bruce springsteen quote i think where he's like the first album you write is really important because that's when it's just you and your songs and there's no audience yet there's no one judging you yet you know and i think that that kind of factors into all of this is i didn't i didn't really think about people seeing it. Right, right, right.

So what is it about depression and comedians? What is it about, like the link between the two? Yeah, I mean, I think there seems to be, you know, maybe it's incorrect or maybe it seems like it's more than it is, but it seems to me that there is a higher degree of depression among comics and comedians. Yeah. That relationship is real, I think.

I think so, too. But I also do think what you said is also accurate. I do think the whole sad clown sort of thing is really a media narrative that's become really big with the Robin Williams situation and those sorts of things. Because I certainly know lots of people who do stand-up, and they don't relate to this at all.

So I don't think it's everyone. But I just think that the idea is, for me, the way that it makes sense in my mind is to find something that's funny, you almost have to find the weird things that we accept in day-to-day life that are kind of ridiculous. You know what I mean? Like the sort of the double standards or the hidden agenda or the you know whatever you might want to call it and in order to explore that i think you do need to go to a really real place i think you do need to go to a place that's almost a bit dark like to be able to find something that's funny you're sort of mining a diamond out of the rough and then bringing it to people on stage and going isn't it funny that we sort of all do this and don't notice it or whatever, telling a story that's so personal to you in your life that people are like, whoa, this guy's being really real or really authentic.

But I think a lot of that discovery comes from pain to some degree. And I think that that's maybe where it comes from. And also, a lot of comedians are extremely introspective people. They judge themselves really intensely. And I think I relate to that a lot. And I think that's maybe the link for myself between struggling with depression and also feeling like really creative and like a performer is I judge and sort of analyze life so much sometimes that it's not that hard for me to go and like, here's something that's a little bit funny. And here's something that's a little bit funny, because I live so much in my own head, at times that it's not that challenging. And I think that's a big, a big thing that has to do with it is just

in order to find things that are funny, and that people are going to relate to, you do have to go inside of yourself a bit. And I think that can be a little scary. Yeah, I mean, I think comedy can be mined from, you know, an introspective perspective on something that is true, right? And so, you have to be hypervigilant about the world, like very observant about what's around you and maybe see things that other people don't see. And then I think you have to be able to turn that telescope or that focus in on yourself. Yeah, exactly. yeah and really like mind the human condition to try to figure out like certain you know universal truths about how we you know who we are as human beings that can be fodder for material totally but when even like when you're saying that like me just listening you says like that doesn't

necessarily sound like so much fun you know what i mean like that sounds hard but i think it's a natural state of being you know what i mean like I think comedians that are good, like, innately have that. That's where they are. Yeah, exactly. That's how they live moment to moment. But I think if you really think about that, I'm not sure if there is an average person, but I'm not sure if the average person walks around like that. You know what I mean?

I think that that's a different kind of mindset that certain people have. And I think it does apply to almost all creativesives though, like writers, comedians, musicians. I think all of them have to have that like little switch that's like, I can go really deep into this thing. Like I could go down the rabbit hole, you know? Yeah. I mean, I think, you know, listen, if an average person watches the documentary food ink, they might think twice about their food choices and say, you know, I need to change it up or, you know, maybe it might shift how they you know perceive their grocery store experience yeah yeah but it's not the average experience to watch that movie and then and then think the world is a very dark bleak place exactly no exactly like some kind of despair over it no no of course exactly it's and

that's not even healthy necessarily you know what i mean and like that's what i mean is that I'm not trying to, I don't even necessarily know if it's a good thing to be that introspective or that intense, but that's kind of like how my mind works, you know? And I think that that's how it's always sort of been for me, but I don't mind it because I feel like it helps me kind of make sense of things and then it's a little bit easier for me to let go of them. Right. So the ted talk blows up like crazy and suddenly you know you're all over the place you're on the today show you're on msnbc and like wherever else like there's interviews with you all so your life definitely changes i don't know how long after the video occurred that that's really fast but really fast so

so you know that's a lot to take in for somebody who's also kind of walking a uh you know a mental health type yeah i was a teenager right yeah 19 years old like 19 you know yeah so like 19 they're like hey come do the today show and it's just like yeah it was a weird experience and it was weird to run into people who i knew from high school or from my community and now they know like my deepest most personal story and okay i watched your video but what that really means is hey like i know that you almost took your own life like you know that's sort of a weird experience to just consistently have and i'm sure you can understand that because so much of your story is public and good parts and bad parts so i'm sure you can relate but yeah it's it's odd and i really to be honest the media stuff

when i was that young it really kind of jaded me because I didn't like it. Like, I didn't like how they portrayed me. I didn't like how they told the story. I didn't like how they tried to talk about people with depression as if they're these sad, you know, disenfranchised, victimized people who like, you know, it's too bad for them. Like, let's just be nice to them.

Like, it was just this really weird thing. And it just, it was a hard experience because I thought I was doing something good. I thought by doing the media and doing the interviews and all that kind of stuff that I was doing a good thing. You're shining a light on this condition and talking about it in a public forum that would hopefully create a safe place for other people to have these conversations. That's what I thought. And then I did a bunch of these and I really didn't like how it came out, and it had a massively devastating effect on me. So what about, like, how was it mischaracterized?

I felt like they made me sound, yeah, well, I don't know. I felt like they made me sound like, I'm the all-American kid. I had the Letterman jacket on, and I was, you know, doing keg stands, and then secretly I was super depressed, but then don't worry because now I'm motivational and now I'm awesome and I'm cured. And so don't worry because I'm going to now sell you my 12 step formula. Like it just, I didn't like any of that. Like I was like, no, like I'm just trying to be honest and real and like be a person. Like I'm not a salesmanman like i don't have a pitch here like it almost felt

like they would set me up for that and be like so like you know where do you download the free ebook you know like it was just well yeah because it's all about like how do we craft and position this story so that it will um you know result in the most number of page views or you know ratings and all that kind of stuff so they have to like come up with an angle on it that is something that will entice people to watch it. In order to do that in two minutes or whatever amount of airtime they're giving you, it becomes compromised. But this was my thing.

I really liked how Upworthy did it. I really liked how... I thought there was a way to do it with integrity. I thought there was a way to... I get it. You need to kind of do a little clickbait and you need to make it, like you said, interesting and you got to package it. But I felt like some people had done it really well. And then when it got bigger and bigger to these, you know,

morning shows and these, you know, the MSNBCs and all that kind of stuff, I just felt like it got ridiculous. Like I felt like it got blown out of proportion and it put me into this really dark rabbit hole where I felt a little bit like a fraud. Like I felt like the thing that I, cause it was all edited. Like I would do like an hour interview and they edit it down to two minutes. And I felt like they manipulated the story to some degree. Like they would take like the most emotional part of the whole thing and make it sound like that's how I was talking to them for an hour when really they'd sort of led me down this path and I was just having a conversation. And so it put me into this really dark space for a little while where I felt really sort of jaded and bitter almost about the whole thing. And the thing that pulled me out of it was all these messages from kids on my

Facebook page where these kids would just write me and they'd just go like, Hey man, like this talk, like I've watched it multiple times on nights that I thought, you know, I was going to take my life and kids sent me their suicide notes and people sent me things that were just so deeply personal that it really pulled me out of it. Because for a while there, I went back into a season of depression. It was the most ironic thing of all time. It was, you know, you give this talk that goes viral about your story and then you start doing some media and stuff and you don't like it and you end up... You can't get out of bed. Exactly. And I was just really down

about it because i was like i thought i was doing something so good man and now i feel like a fraud to myself and that's the exact thing that i'm saying i don't want to do and that's the whole point of the talk and you know blah blah blah so i just kind of felt like a liar to myself and i didn't like it because i felt like it was yeah the stuff was out of my control i didn't edit the pieces and then these messages from these kids was what inspired me. And that's what started me writing. And so I started blogging and just sharing the stuff on my page. And that was when a few offers came in for a book deal. And I felt like this might be like the bigger version of the media stuff where it's like, they're going to blow this out of proportion even more. And like the, you know, they might manufacture my book and whatever.

And I was like really wary about, you you know taking a deal or doing a book but then i would just stay up and i would read these messages from these kids and i was like i want something that they could hand to their friend that they could have in their backpack that could be on their coffee table or their bedside table like something that could actually be a part of their lives more than just this 10 minute video and that was actually what pulled me out of this really dark place. Cause like it got really weird there for a while where I just felt like I would just be in Victoria and I'd go to a grocery store and I have 10 people talk to me about this. I mean, like my friend put it to me one time, he's like, man, he's like, I'm really happy for you. He was like, but it's really annoying how

everywhere this is. He's like, I just can't have a conversation with someone without them bringing up like, Hey, did you see this thing? Like, he's like, it's annoying. Like, because it was just everywhere. And I just couldn't go anywhere without having these conversations. And like, I remember I went to New York and it was my first time in New York. I'd been there 10 minutes. I was staying at the hotel. I went to get food. I walked and people came out of a McDonald's and were like talking to me. And I'm just standing there in New York. It's like this teenage kid. And there's this woman in front of me. It's like twice my age telling me her story and i'm like what is going on you know like what's happening yeah well the universe is pulling

you in this direction you know putting you in this like you know star trek tractor beam step into you know some level of advocacy in this field and yet at the same time you're having your own personal struggle with it i mean you're just a kid just a kid exactly and that was the that was the biggest part of it all and so like when time went on i just kind of grew up a little bit more and it became easier and then obviously like anything that goes viral it does pass you know what i mean it's not forever and so it did pass after a while and then it was really just those messages and that was the thing that made me write the book and made me you know still talk about and it's not forever. And so it did pass after a while. And then it was really just those messages. And that was the thing that made me write the book

and made me still talk about this stuff. Those messages just mean so much to me. And that was the thing that really gave me some fuel. What is the relationship to your depression, the relationship between your depression and the act of being in service to this multitude of people, these kids out there that, you know, with whom your message is resonating. In other words,

like, you know, this sort of realization like, oh, like me talking about this is having an impact on all these people that I don't know. At some point, you know, with the book or otherwise, there's this realization like, i can i can serve this community yeah and so what is the impact of like that process on your actual like mental health like just in terms of like how much just talking about it like affect like myself yeah like outside of the therapist's office yeah yeah sure to be talking about it publicly to like be owning it and to be in this place of like you you know, writing about it and promoting a certain message, you know, tied to the idea that you're helping these people. I mean, does that impact, like, is your depression independent of that?

Like, does it come and go independent of that? Or the more that you are kind of in, you know, selfless service to that, does that seem to que to quell you know the dark night of the soul right that's a great question i'm not sure if i have a great answer i think that i think if anything for me it's just made me so much more aware of who i am and so much more honest and talking about it makes me accountable to the fact that i can't really run away from it or pretend that it's not there because it is so public, you know, and there are these people who know details about it. And that helps me a lot. Like knowing that it's out there every time I feel like I'm struggling or I'm starting to go down that path, it's a lot easier for me to feel okay about it because I'm

like, yeah, like this has been a part of my life and I have a way better toolkit now for how to deal with it. Like I know what to do. I have certain, you know, habitual patterns I'll use when I start to feel myself sliding down and it's fine. So I think talking about it helps me be accountable because it's really hard to be like, Hey, be honest or like, you know, have conversations and you don't do it. You know what I mean? So if anything, I think the accountability factor is helpful. And I think that, you know, like the messages from the kids on my page and stuff was extremely helpful writing the book, because it's like, I would sometimes if I got stuck, I would picture like I was just writing a message back to these kids, because I always try and reply to whatever I could. And I would

just try and write, you know, like, we were just talking to each other. And that was what I tried to do with the book. And so there was a sense of accountability, as opposed to being like, I'm writing a book, who's going to read this? I was like, no, like, Michael just talking to each other and that was what i tried to do with the book and so there was a sense of accountability as opposed to being like i'm writing a book who's going to read this i was like no like michael's going to read this like you know this person's going to read this like this is real like that kid who wrote me and i've written back to him he's going to read this so i got to write it for him and so i think that that sense of accountability makes me be more honest makes me be more vulnerable makes me explore myself more and i think that that's actually really helped because it's just like a reminder that like yeah it's it's fine and it's also just made it like not a big

deal like as much as you know it's a part of like what i'm doing career-wise and like my book has sort of like a shocking title to some people or whatever um it's it's not that huge of a part of my life you know what i mean like there's so much more to who i am and it's not something i wake up every day being like i gotta find a new angle to talk about this but you're the depression guy i mean like that's the thing right like to some people yeah yeah like that's especially with the book coming out like you're gonna get you're gonna have to like carry that a little bit right yeah no no exactly exactly but like it's just to myself like that's that's not am. You know what I mean? And so that's what I mean is it's like, it's almost helpful to have that stuff out there because it's just like, yeah, like that's, it just makes me be like, yeah, it's not that big of a deal. Like, and I don't see myself as like, quote unquote, the depression guy, you know, at all. And I just don't think that that's like who I am, you know, on a work career level or on a personal level. But I just, that's my big thing is like, it's so funny to me how we reward, um, like my, my comedy and my book and stuff can be rewarded as this creative exploration and this creative work.

But going up and sharing a personal part of your story, people see that as like a whole separate thing. But to me, it's like the same. If there's ever been a great piece of like performance art, quote unquote, I'd say it's my ted talk i mean it's like what i want to do with comedy is say the things that people are afraid to say say the things that are uncomfortable if i've ever accomplished that right like it was at the ck kind of way yeah sure and like my style is different like i play the piano and it's different but like the idea is the same like i want to say the things that like people are afraid to say that's uncomfortable. I want to explore the sort of hidden truths that's in our day-to-day lives that we have a hard time

verbalizing. And if there's ever been a good example of me doing that, it's the TED talk, you know what I mean? So, it's like, to me, it is still creative. It is still art in some way, like to do that. You know, I think the same thing about like what you do. And so, to me, like when people box me into that, like that's one of thing about like what you do and so to me like when people box me into that like that's one of my almost like triggers that i don't like is people being like oh like you're the ted talk guy it's like no man like that's just why can't i be a multi-layered artist who not only can you know be creative but talk about something personal yeah i mean you can do that and you do do that but the human brain likes to categorize, right? So, it's like, oh, you're the guy who does that.

So, that's just natural for people. No, that's not a big deal. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, let's talk a little bit about depression itself, right? Like, maybe we should define it and, you know, distinguish it from sadness, right? So, you know, we're very cavalier in throwing this word around like, oh, I'm depressed. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But it's like, that cavalier in throwing this word around like oh i'm depressed yeah yeah but it's like that's different from real depression yeah right like so how do you define it i think

there's a quote in the ted talk that i think is maybe the best way i could put it which is like real depression isn't being sad when things are going wrong real depression is being sad when everything in your life's going right and i think like i mean i don't know how much better i could put it like to me that's made a lot of sense because I think there's been times in my life, especially after the TED Talk, something that where everything seems to be going right or on surface looks like everything's going right. And I feel that pain again. I feel that sense of depression kicking in. And I think that's what it is to me is like there's a's a way that a feeling a state a place that defies circumstance that defies external reality you know that defies whether you're making a bunch of money

or not whether you're getting a bunch of approval or not whether you're living your dream or not you know and to me that's what it is is something that can counteract all of that and i think that's very counterintuitive to our whole culture which sells you this dream that's like work hard make a lot of money you'll be so happy type of thing and this is something that says like no like this can still interact and be a part of your life even if you are successful or whatever your definition of success is right and when you're in the throes of it i mean what's the best adjective despair like unmitigated despair? No, I would say more like empty, like more like I'm a shell of myself. Like there's a line in the book that goes something like, I felt like I'd become a stranger to myself simply renting the skin of someone who looked familiar.

And I think like that's maybe how I would put it. Like you just don't feel, like I just don't feel like I'm myself. I don't want to speak for other people, but like I just don't feel like I just don't feel like I'm myself I don't want to speak for other people but like I just don't I feel like all the joy and the good stuff and the energy that I have my life has like been scraped out of me and I'm just kind of this shell and I feel yeah I feel empty in a lot of ways like I still know who I am and maybe what's important but I just feel deflated like I just don't have the spark I don't have the motivation I don't have any of the sense of like, why does anything matter? And you just really start to go, at least for me, down this like rabbit hole of like really pessimistic sort of negative thoughts.

And it just sort of creates this force field around you that's really hard to snap out of. And when was the last time it got super dark? That's a good question. One of the times was after all the media stuff and after the sort of viral nature of it all. And there was like a few months where I was living in this really tiny condo and I was just staying in there and it was getting back to those old patterns. I mean, I wasn't sleeping in as late, but I just wouldn't leave for days. And I just wouldn't leave. I would call my mom on the phone to talk to her or something.

And I started getting into that pattern. She's like, how are you? And I'm like, oh, I'm good. Like I'm writing a lot. I'm doing stuff. And I was just sitting there for days and not wanting to go out, not opening the blinds, you know, the place that had the bed came out of the wall. So you had to choose between your bed and your desk. And so I would just alternate between being in bed and just laying there and then flipping it up to have a desk for a bit and then going back to bed and that was like my whole day it was moving like 12 feet right and that was like you know not not all that long ago it's like two years ago but then also it's not like every six months or no but then i had another one where um and you know like you could say this was more externally motivated but i don't think it was

was like um a year ago i had this big problem where I couldn't work in the States anymore because I'm a Canadian citizen. I needed to get a visa and I was just not allowed to come into America anymore. And I had all these gigs for comedy and stuff that I wanted to be doing. And I had some speaking gigs as well and I couldn't do them. And I had made commitments to people and I had to cancel them. And I was spending the most money I'd ever spent on lawyers and getting no results and nothing was happening and I felt stuck I had all this new material I wanted to work out but I couldn't do it I like literally don't work very much at all in Canada I work 95 in America and my manager and agent are calling me going what's going on I had no answers I'm at home the weather is bad and I just went to this really dark place again and so like you know you

could say like oh that's motivated by other things but like i don't think so i think like there's something deeper underneath that that felt you know unexpressed and like i just you know and i went back into that place and then you know even this year i've gone to a place where maybe for a couple weeks it was like that like when i was writing the book and i had to like go back emotionally into some of the stuff it wrecked me for a couple weeks like and that happened two or three times writing it i was going back into all of it yeah to live it again think exactly and i just went into this state where i was like whoa and that happened so like you know probably since the ted talk i'd say there's been five of those so like to be like oh i've overcome it or something

it's just ridiculous like it's totally inauthentic what do you think the biggest misconception is that people have about depression the biggest misconception i think that it's a result that people think that it's a result of having a bad life that there's something wrong with your life like that there's a bigger issue like oh well he just doesn't make enough money or he's just like he married the wrong person or like you know what i mean like that there's some real big rude issue that if you just fix that you'd be fine and i think or just like hey man snap out of it yeah or like time to man up oh yeah that's the absolute worst yeah no the idea that your gender should define your ability to be honest or vulnerable is absolutely hilarious you know

in the worst sense it's like and yeah no and those are all the misconceptions like snap out of it like just you can it's just a mindset thing man like just go watch the movie the secret you know like just that sort of stuff and like man up and yeah but i also do think there is this thing that like and maybe this is just me and maybe i'm way off base but i do think there is like a cultural narrative in north america that goes like you'll be happy if you do the right things. And they define the right things as like, have a good job, do this and that. And I'm not saying that that doesn't add to fulfillment or happiness. Like I love what I do for work.

And if I did something I didn't enjoy, I would be a very unhealthy person. So I definitely get how that's important. But I think it's outrageous to be like, if you have the job you like and you have a healthy relationship with a few people, your life's perfect. And for me, that just doesn't resonate at all. And I think that that's something that's really hard. And that's something that I hear from a lot of kids. The kids who write me messages, people would probably think like, oh, it's the kid who

smokes after school or it's the goth chick or the skateboarder. It's not at all man like i have so many d1 football players write me it's outrageous and i have so many people who are you know celebrities write me it's ridiculous like it's just it's not what you think right and i would imagine that there's an added amount of guilt when of course you are doing something that makes you happy or you have all the things that you're told. And people go, oh, your life's so good. Like, that's so cool, man. So then you go, how could I be?

It makes it even worse. Exactly. Exactly. So people would just be shocked to see some of these messages that they're from the exact opposite person. You would think of like millionaires. Like I'm just, I've had every kind of person. And the minority of people who write me are actually people who are like oh i'm i relate to being a skater you know this sort of outcast group that we might think of that's like 10 of people 90

is like actually like quote unquote high achievers all that kind of stuff and it's because of yeah the double standard that if you're going to achieve and do well and whatever then you should just be happy and don't be ungrateful man and all those sorts of things and certainly don't admit any weakness or allow yourself to be vulnerable especially for people who are like athletes or you know in the celebrity eye at all and they're under other pressure yeah they're like no like you know i've had people write me who you know people would know their name or whatever and they've just said that like the bottom line is that they've been told before by their publicist and other people that to talk about this would be to end their career like they like one person put it to me as going to talk about my

thoughts with suicide would be career suicide and i thought that was so fascinating i was like what a backwards culture you know yeah it's sad too you know what i mean and that's part of your advocacy and your message is you know we're never going to get beyond this until we can talk about it without that shame component um you know that keeps it in the dark, the stigma that is associated with it. And I think for the average person, they would say, well, there's no, is it really stigmatized? If someone's depressed, we all want them to be better and helpful. But when I heard your talk and the more that I read up on you, I was like, no, there really, there actually really is more of a stigma than I think most people would realize.

Well, yeah. Like in, um, in Canada, like there was some study done recently by a bell media who has this campaign called bell. Let's talk.

And I'm a spokesperson for it. And it's basically this way where bell media is like a very big media conglomerates, TV and radio. They have this day where they put all their spokespeople on tv and radio to like talk about these issues for a day and then every text message that's sent on their cell phone carrier and every tweet that goes out is five cents for mental health and so so far it's raised over 72 million dollars so it's been really successful

i've been a part of it last two years and it's been awesome so they take some of that money that they raise and they use it to do like actual studies like in the culture and in society. And the one that they were showing to us last year before we did the Bell Let's Talk Day in January was that like three or four out of 10 people were like, they thought that depression and mental health was just a quote unquote,

a convenient excuse for bad behavior. And I thought that was so fascinating. You know, like that's just such a weird like thought. And like you said, you'd be like, if you talk about it with someone over dinner, you're like, oh no, like I don't hold any kind of, you know, shame or problem to someone who might have a mental health issue. But then when it becomes more real and it's like someone, you know, or whatever, there, there can be little things like that, you know, that come up and it's just fascinating to go like, wow, like 30, 40% of people think that mental health issues can just be a convenient excuse for bad behavior like that's just kind of odd and i think that like there's

this big idea that like some people have mental health issues and some people don't and like to me we all have mental health like if you have a brain and you're can talk like you know what i mean it's just it's a varying spectrum for sure but like everyone has it and this idea that like oh some people are immune to this and then some people are like totally in the trenches of this it's not a dualistic thing at all no right and i think one of the examples you used is you know if somebody posts on facebook like oh i'm in bed because i broke my leg right everyone's like i'll feel better and everyone will want to sign to sign their cast and give them a pat on the back and all of that. Exactly.

But if you say, I can't get out of bed because I'm depressed, that's a different thing. Somebody's probably not going to post that. You have a good memory, man. Those are some quotables right out of there. That's great. So in kind of probing that or thinking about that, I'm like, yeah, that's actually right. Even if it's a subtle thing, the decision to not share that is keeping it in the dark and keeping it quiet. Yeah, well, there's a big distinction in our society between physical injuries or ailments and stuff that's emotional, spiritual, mental, whatever you might want to call it. And whether you notice that or you don't yeah i think everyone with a cast you people want

to sign it and want to have sympathy and i think sometimes with other things and like with addiction with any number of no one's gonna post on facebook like i don't want to leave my house because i just want to drink by myself all day seriously though seriously though but seriously that's a great point like it's just that's exactly what i'm saying and so it's just i think that that speaks to like a larger problem though and i think that like to me the conversation is a lot less about like hey we have to you know destigmatize mental health or whatever but more just like we need to be okay like as a culture embracing like total honesty even when it's uncomfortable and i think that's like what all great art and all great things that i like has done is told the truth in a way, even if it's uncomfortable or awkward or painful or weird, it's telling the truth. And I think that that's the thing that in our society,

because we can edit our lives on social media, because we can portray ourselves in certain ways, because in interactions, we can shape our personalities. We have this really uncomfortable relationship with honesty. And it's just odd to me. And I think that that is a big part of it. Because, yeah, why wouldn't you in a way, if the purpose of social networks and social media is to connect and whatever, why wouldn't you share both sides of your life, but no one does that. Right? So it's, it's just very ironic in some ways. Yeah, yeah, yeah, for sure. I just lost my train of thought.

But I do have one thing I wanted to ask you, which is you said that now you can feel when it's coming on. Yeah. Right? Yeah. So, you have a sense of when it's starting. So, I'm interested in, you know, what that is emotionally. Like, what's going on with you like what are the indicia that is that are that's that's triggering you to realize that something's happening and what your protocol is now you know for getting ahead of it or getting on top of it and dealing with

it on a daily basis yeah well i mean for myself like i think that there's something kind of just intuitive for me about like knowing when it's coming on that's just from like experience like i would be hard pressed to think about like what a what a tangible thing would be but when i feel that coming and there's like that heavy feeling in my chest and like oh man like i can see where this is going for myself it's like there's just a few foundational things and it's like one of them and this is for me is like to wake up early like that really helps me in a lot of ways just like to have a healthy like sleep pattern and to feel like i'm sort of starting the day and you know that sort of stuff and then the other thing is how i eat like i really when i'm if i'm struggling at all like with depression or feeling

that way like diet is like a huge thing that will just really affect how i feel but then the other two things is just really having conversations with two groups of people, one of them being like three or four people who I'm like super, super close to in my life and know me through all of this stuff and know me way beyond like what my personal brand quote unquote might be or something. And then having a conversation of a similar nature in counseling. And those things for me, it's just like, and I guess with diet would also be exercise but those are kind of my things it's like if i can get up early if i can eat right get some exercise like sweat and have like two honest conversations in the day it sets me so far ahead of where i

would be otherwise and it sounds so simple and redundant and almost like maybe what everyone said before but there's something about just having a path to walk when you know you know that your your lower self is maybe about to kick in just three or four like really simple yeah those are so simple and just actually doing that and you can control them and they're easily winnable and that's the big thing for me is it needs to be winnable it needs to be definable so it's like if i go to the end of the day and it's you know midnight and i'm about to go to bed and i go what time did i wake up and I didn't get up early? And what did I have today?

And I didn't eat well. Did I exercise? And it's no. And did I have an honest conversation? It's really easy for myself to go like, okay, this is why you're feeling this way. Change it. You know what I mean? And so there's something tangible about that that works for how my brain works.

And those are just like the four kind of like foundational things that are really, really helpful for me. And I think that it's important to have that. Yeah. Do you still keep a journal every day? I don't journal every day. No. But I write so much that I feel like I get some of that out like in that way. But like meditation has been something for me that's been really helpful.

Like I've been really inconsistent with it lately, which is a little bit upsetting. But when I am struggling, I just have like an app on my phone, you can set a timer, but I just literally do it for five minutes. Because for me, it's so hard to be like, Oh, I'm gonna do it for 30 minutes or an hour or something, I get nervous about it. And I'll just do it for five minutes. And it's amazing, just like how going out of your way to set little things for sort of self care, or like to sort of prevent against your lower self or kicking in is amazingly powerful to give you this momentum. And if you do three or four of those things in a row, that's when I feel like you get a lot of momentum and you get this feeling of sort of like, okay, I got this. And

that's what I mean by like having a better toolkit to kind of navigate this stuff with. Yeah. It's interesting. I mean, even, you know, to continue the kind of addiction sobriety parallel, you know, it's, it's a list of like very simple things that get annoying after a while it's like really that's it i have to do that thing again like exactly give me the where's the behind the velvet rope like secret vip solution or the advanced you know it's like no it's the same thing pick up the phone call another alcoholic see how he's doing you know oh did you you know do a gratitude list like stuff stuff that's like annoyingly stupid, but actually highly doable, doesn't take that much time

and is bulletproof in its ability to like shift your consciousness. Exactly. And I think that's what everyone needs to some degree when it comes to dealing with this stuff. Because if you don't have a roadmap of what to do in your sort of like worst case scenario, you're just headed for a bad place.

And that's what I really didn't have as a teenager. Now, obviously, you could attribute that just like growing up and not having a lot of awareness at the time. But like if you think about everything I said in the beginning, I was sleeping in super late. You know what I mean? Like it's just all the signs are there to not being healthy and not being balanced. And that's the biggest thing for me is just if you take care of those few things, it just gives you a baseline to operate off of. And that's all I've ever wanted with this stuff is just to have a sort of an even place where I can be like,

okay, I know I can get there. And, you know, that baseline isn't amazing, but it's just a baseline to work off of. And I know if I do a few things, I can get there. And that for me is really important because now, like with what I do, I do a few things, I can get there. And that for me is really important. Because now like with what I do, I can't always have sort of, I want to say the luxury of like, allowing myself to go down these week long paths of like, you know, feeling really depressed. But like, I do 140 road dates a year, like I can't sometimes just go for two weeks, like living in my room, nor do I want to, but I'm just saying like, it's sometimes there's literally not even an option. It's like, I got to perform that night. So it's like, I need

to have things that can help me. And I think for anyone who has some sort of high stress situation or something they need to do performance wise or work wise, that having those things is so helpful because it takes away the fear of being like, what's going to happen? You know what I mean? Because you actually have something practical. Right, right right right um i also think it's interesting that you know with your dad being an alcoholic that you never got it seemed well maybe you did but it doesn't sound like you got into trouble with drugs or alcohol not really i mean because they're like wasn't it i mean when you're in a dark place like that that that like drive to like shift how you feel like you know you know drugs can be an escape for that right yeah i mean definitely like i you know did drugs and drank alcohol and stuff in high school like for sure but it was just something that never

became like out of control and i think a lot because of my dad to be honest like it was just like it was just so obvious like yeah if you drink 12 beers a day right that's what happens so it's just sort of it was just obvious in a way to me and obviously like yeah i did drugs and i drank and was like a high school kid but it was just so clear like what that did to you yeah like it's just yeah i'm not gonna be that guy yeah yeah it's like i'm gonna i'm gonna mess up in other ways man i'm gonna creatively mess up so yeah so that wasn't like a big thing really but to be honest like here's my other point in all this like sometimes people talk about like self harm um in this conversation like people sort of use mental health and they'll go that's addiction

anxiety depression self-harm and suicide that's like a common thing for people to say lopping it into all one big thing yeah yeah umbrella and um one thing that's interesting though is people only talk about self-harm really in terms of like, oh, you cut yourself. You do something to your body. You inflict pain upon your body. And to me, isn't self-harm just like going out of your way to not be healthy or not have proper habits or whatever? I feel like maybe I wasn't a drug addict or an alcoholic or something like that. Or just generally being self-loathing.

Exactly. I feel like I did a lot of those things. So it's not so clean and simple to just be like, Oh, no, I was just depressed, but everything else was fine. It was like, No, I did a lot of things like self loathing and not wanting to like, communicate with people and isolate that were also harmful. So it's like, there's a lot I think that goes into it once you start to sort of sink to that place. Yeah, it snowballs. I mean, if you don't feel good about yourself, then you're not likely to take actions that cultivate self esteem, right? Like you're gonna eat the bag of cheetos and not have the green juice you know what i mean like so that you know one perpetrates another because then it becomes a

vicious cycle exactly no exactly and that's really the best way of putting it and then the reverse side to me like what i've seen on the other side of this because you know someone listening to this might go like well you know this all sounds just heavy and terrible and like, whatever. There is a reverse side to me where it's like, if you can experience some of those moments, like, I don't know if you relate to this or agree with this, but if you can find yourself in some of those moments, some of those lows and find something in there, there's an amazing amount of perspective, like on the other side. And there's an amazing amount of like upward spiral momentum that comes yeah it works both ways yeah it does work both ways but there's an amazing power of like not just being like oh it gets good and then you're fine again to me like when i'm

really on top of all this stuff and i'm in a good flow and then i have like a day or two where i'm like well i could see myself sliding back the other way but then i get on top of it there's this amazing momentum that shows me like my personal growth and all these things. And it makes me legitimately inspired and legitimately grateful. You know what I mean? Because it's like, there was this small group of people at one point in my life who cared more about putting my life back together than I did, you know, and that was my mom and my family and my counselor and a few friends, right? And I feel really grateful for that. And when I'm on the other side of it now,

it's an amazing thing to experience, you know? And it's a gift that I want to give someone else one day is to care about them when they can't even care about themselves, you know? And I think that there is something really positive that can come out of all of this for people where there is a big perspective shift. And I think that that's been really cool for me to see

because at one point I did think it was like, it's either really bad or it's just okay. But I didn't know there was like this other side where it could get really good, you know? And that's, that's been really cool to see. Yeah. Well, I feel like gratitude's a big part of your story too. Like, I feel like you've owned this, you know, trajectory for yourself and you are in a place where you're grateful for these things that have happened to you. Like you can say, I'm grateful that I've had this problem. Yeah. And it's given you this opportunity to be in service, you know, to a lot of people who are suffering quietly. Yeah. And I mean, and I hope that that is a positive thing for those people. You know,

certainly people have written me and said that, but like, I really do hope that that can be something that someone else will see, like some 13 year old kid will see, and one day he'll give a talk at TED or do something himself that is his own story. And whether it has anything to do with depression or whatever, it doesn't matter to me. But just like being able to do that, I think is really, really cool. And yeah, I am honestly super grateful for it. And like writing the book and stuff like that almost just helped drive that home to be like, yeah, like some of that stuff was really hard, but I think it kind of laid the foundation for you know obviously your experience to shape who you are but i do think

that that laid the foundation just have a little bit more empathy for people because it's like i get it you know what i mean to have a problem or to struggle with something that other people might go like what are you talking about dude and i can kind of be like no like i get that you know yeah well i want to shift gears a little bit here um parade magazine called you one of the most influential millennials first of all how that happened i have no idea that's cool people always ask me who's your publicist i was like that's some good press right it is yeah it seems like a weird magazine like i would never read right magazine i know i'm sure you wouldn't but like like i was surprised to find out because i you learn about all this kind of stuff when you have a book coming out oh parade is has this has the biggest circulation in the world of anything you know like they've got

four billion readers like yeah what who reads that like my grandma right you know what i mean where do you even buy that i don't even even know. Well, Millennial is certainly not reading Parade. But anyway, cool nonetheless, right? Yeah. And so, I'm interested in, I mean, I'm fascinated by the Millennial generation because that's not my generation. Yeah. And, you know, I'm old enough to be your dad.

I have a 21-year-old son. Do you really? Yeah, I do. Oh, wow. So, I'm around a lot of Millennials and I've had the good fortune to interview some really compelling millennials for this podcast. And, you know, the sort of traditional kind of characterization of the millennials is, oh, they're entitled, and, you know, like, there's all this sort of memes on the internet

about, like, the millennial generation. My experience has been very different because I'm meeting incredibly dynamic, you you know people that are very highly motivated and are doing amazing things for the betterment of the planet and all that and it's a very self-selecting group because these are people that inspire me that i'm having on the podcast right um but i am interested in understanding like i want to better understand the generation gap in the sense of, you know, how you, as somebody who's a member of this generation, perceives my generation. Like, what are we not seeing? Or where is the kind of paradigm shift in terms of priorities and perspectives? Like, can you speak to that?

Can you articulate that a little bit? I hope so. Maybe. I think that the interesting thing like is the millennial generation, like quote unquote is kind of lives and dies on the internet in most people's eyes. You know what I mean? Like it's a, it's a generation of people on social media and all that kind of stuff. And the thing that's sort of fascinating to me is that because of that, like I did kind of grow up in the internet age, you know, like I remember when I was going

through stuff like with counseling and stuff like that when I was 17, 18, like Joe Rogan's podcast had just started and it was like in the early episodes and I was like listening to it and like loving it. And it was very inspiring to hear these comedians talk about their life and all this stuff. So I've just had such a crazy access to information that I think that it has really helped me and sort of like shaped what I do because I just had this library of resources available to me on the Internet. Yeah, I mean, I can't imagine being in high school and holding something in my hand that would answer any question I ever had that I was too afraid to ask somebody. Right, exactly. And so that's what I grew up with, more or less. You know, like when I was in high school, we had still had like flip phones and stuff, but like it was going towards that place. Like Facebook was around, blah, blah, blah.

And so I think that for myself and for others, like growing up with all that, it almost is really helpful to be able to see like, Hey, I connect with this. I don't really connect with this. Like, Hey, these people's perspective, like really fits with me. These people doesn't. And it allowed me to sort of have this almost library of like life experience, none of which that I actually lived, but I just got to sort of witness and observe. And that really kind of helped has helped shape me in every way, like as a writer, as a comedian, like stuff I do, like activist work for mental health, because I've got to see so many other people's work and so many other people's creative expression. And I think that's something that was like, that is maybe you didn't have growing up and so for myself like I think that just gives you such a distinct maybe upper hand or a head start or like a kick of motivation because there's so much out there and you can

read these inspiring stories and you can sort of self-select what you want to you know find on the internet and so for myself like I self-selected to find people who I felt like were doing cool things in the world and were, you know, doing something that was creating a positive shift. And I just obsessively consumed that. And so as a, in a weird way, I felt like when I was like 18, 19, like dropped out of high school, trying to do comedy, blah, blah, I sort of positively brainwashed myself, if that makes sense, like with so much positive content. And I look back on it and go if i never had that like i don't know if any of this happens you know what i mean i don't know if this is possible and so i think in a way like millennials and you know kids my age are a

lot more driven and sort of like self-aware than people might give credit for because like you can open up the podcast app and you can choose a bunch of podcasts but like what ones are you going to choose like with all that freedom to do things what are you actually going to self-select and i think that to be honest i have lots of conversations with people my age and my friends and stuff who are using all this stuff not to just be on twitter talking about what they just had for lunch or something but to like selectively follow people they look up to to digest podcasts and information that is valuable to follow people they look up to to digest podcasts and information that is valuable to them that they think is going to influence them i think that's

amazing it's free and it's 24 7 exactly i mean like just reflecting on my own experience in high school and even in college like you know when i was in college it was the the earliest days of even you know consumers having computers i didn't have a computer in college but i could go to the library and use the first apple macintosh you know like to type up my paper i would use it for word processing that was it it was pre-internet um and in high school it's like your access to information was so like i don't think that you could even conceptualize how limited it was by comparison not that that information didn't exist but the ability to access that there were so many barriers so you have your textbooks uh you have the newspaper uh dan rather on the on the evening news that's how you got your news yeah and like that's pretty much it unless

you were so industrious that you were going to go to the library and start pulling out micro fees yeah you know what i mean yeah and so yeah like and the career center would be like well here's your four career options you know like and so it's impossible to think bigger, you know, think creatively about the potential for your life. When you have this, this device that allows you to explore wherever your imagination or your creativity might drive you. And that's not always good. That can take you to pretty negative negative and dark places of course um but it's hard for me to understand the impact of that on a young mind right and so i mean from the accountability level like almost having that though to me has made me more accountable because like look how many people my age are doing cool stuff like if you look at

that so that's what i think like i look at i look at millennials and i see a highly industrious group of people and i see people that have a social awareness and a concern for the greater good in a way that my generation lacked right and i think that but i don't know if that's just because of the millennials that i'm exposing myself to or whether that is a fair characterization for your you know generation your age group I think it's somewhat fair because if you look at the people like on that parade list or whatever there's six people on it one of them's Mark Zuckerberg obviously he was like an outrageous outlier in terms of his success but then there's Malala on there who's like an 18 19 year old girl you know I mean who with a book and her story is like literally shifted an entire culture

potentially yeah I mean there's always going to be extraordinary people in every age group but i'm just saying like if you look at if you canvas like the just average kids your age no no no no i'm just saying that to make a bigger point of saying that with that out there like with those stories out there like people like of course that's an outlier of course there's always going to be that but i'm saying with it being so real where you could read everything about Malala if you want to, you could read everything about Mark Zuckerberg if you want, you could case study these people. And I've done this myself in my own life with people I look up to. And that ability to do that, I feel like builds in an inherent motivation and ambition and drive and a weird sense of accountability to actually live

your dream, to actually do your thing, to actually try and create your change. Because you're like, look how real it is for these other people. And you almost don't just want to be a bystander. You want to sort of get in the game, if that makes sense. And I think that's the big difference is like, when you can follow these people on Twitter and Instagram and Facebook and all that kind of stuff, you're so involved in the, you know, day-to-day storytelling of their life that it's inspiring you know like you've had casey uh nice dad on here i always mess up his last name but he is someone who has like a daily vlog that people can watch and it connects you to him in this way that's unbelievably personal like unbelievably personal and it's it's got to be inspiring to a young filmmaker you didn't have that necessarily you know what i mean so if you wanted to make films

like maybe you go see a movie every couple weeks but like it's not the same it's not just there for you all the time and so like for myself as a kid like when joe rogan's podcast was coming up listening to comedians talk to each other every day and talk about sold out shows and the road and all that stuff it motivated me to a crazy level because it was like it's like getting a graduate degree in in at a school that doesn't exist exactly i mean exactly yeah it's amazing by the way did you bring your hoverboard to la i saw that on facebook that's funny yeah no we just made a we just made some funny videos actually with that for for my book i'll show you the map i saw one of them oh yeah yeah so yeah but it's just i don't know i think that there's something um really

fascinating though about the idea of like i don't want to say it's like voyeurism like being able to like look into someone's life that intensely but there is something really weirdly motivating about it just seeing like the impact they can create because you realize that they're they're similar to you you know i mean like they're in the similar circumstance, similar age, similar boat, similar life experience, and they're able to create these things. And it's just amazing to be able to, to sort of study that.

And for myself, like that was a big part of like everything for me that happened was studying different people from comedians to writers to whatever. And that just wouldn't be possible without this. So I really think that, yeah, millennial kids are, are driven like for the most part,

at least people I'm around. yeah i mean i think the jaded kind of perspective from my generation is oh these people are chasing their dream who cares about their dream yeah who's gonna who's gonna pick up the garbage you know like they all just want the dream career and it's like no i see people that are actually um you know we're in an age where for the first time in history, you can like sort of self-style your career. If you have something to offer that is valuable to somebody else, then you can cultivate a way to, you know, make a living doing that. And it may be in a freelance capacity. It's not going to be like, you know, you go and you get a job and you have a 401k. But, you know, my observation is that people like you they don't care about that

like that's yeah that doesn't even factor into the equation no that doesn't factor in for me at all i do though think that there is something you brought up there where it's like everyone wants to live their dream i do think there is a slight problem with that you know what i mean like i do think that success is so easily digestible and consumable now on the internet like you can just go to someone's instagram and see these like cool quotes and their sweet car and their sweet house. And you're like, man, that's what I want. And people almost, my one knock on millennials would be,

they want the dream more than they want the work. You know what I mean? They want the lifestyle more than they want the kind of the journey. The kind of the work ethic gets lost in that. And also just a love for the craft. Yeah, well, like it's like, how can I hack my way to this or shortcut my way to and like i'm always kind of you know speaking in you know in contrast to that to some

extent because exactly you can you can you know achieve your dream you're you're the the life that you want has never been more accessible right but that does not um you know negate the you know amount of work that is going to have to be you know uh undertaken to get you should want to do it like that's my thing you should it shouldn't just be a means to an end to be like this is how i get a porch yeah when you watch casey's videos like that's one of the things he always says like you know he works he works harder than anybody exactly i mean so he loves it he has this life that you you see and and you know i can see a young person saying i want to have that life but he's also very clear to like make it understood that like

you know he's the hardest guy working guy in the room you know what i mean and it doesn't it doesn't happen overnight and you know his videos are so impeccably edited because he's edited a bazillion videos and he still stays up all night every night doing it and that's and that's what i mean though is like i think not only is it about work ethic it's that people want to pursue a path with the least resistance to their goal of being publicly successful like that's my problem is when you some people that i've met of my age group and they are exactly that they want to quote unquote growth hack and all these sorts of things and life hack and blah, blah, blah. And use whatever they think is the trendy idea at the moment to sort of ride a wave and be able to, you know, be successful or make money or whatever. But they don't genuinely care about it.

They're not trying to sort of, you know, get ahead in the thing that they love or find like, hey, what's the best practice for doing this thing? Like, that's great. You know what I mean? But if you just want to find hacks and shortcuts and these things it makes me feel like you don't really love it you know what i mean because if you really loved it why would like obviously you want to do it in an intelligent way and be intentional but just the idea that you just want to minimize the time that you have to do it it's like do you even really like it yeah i mean

i think that the hacks and the shortcuts are appropriate at curtailing the amount of time you spend on other stuff that is preventing you from doing the thing that gives you the most fulfillment um and but i think you know in counterpoint to that though i would say that i also observe that young people um are much more uh dialed into and attuned to trying to find a career path that gives them a sense of satisfaction that is also contributing and giving back in a way that is much more substantial than I think would fairly characterize my generation when we were 22 or whatever. You know what I mean? And I find that to be inspiring and uplifting. It's like people that are getting graduate degrees in permaculture and you know working for environmental groups and like you know certain things that like

that didn't even play into the equation of most of the people that i knew when i was of that age and so i think that that's that's pretty cool no definitely no and that's my overall like if i had to narrow it down into like a sentence i totally agree with you but just to play the contrarian like that is my other side of it it's just being like i do feel like i've met a fair amount of people who i'm like yeah i feel like the internet has almost crippled you because it makes you think that success is right around the corner and that you should also just pick what that guy's been successful with like you should just follow that well it's fueled by reality tv culture where we're celebrating and and rewarding financially and otherwise people that have no discernible talent

or skill exactly just somehow henpecked and decided that these people should be on television no but seriously but seriously like that i feel like that was missing obviously from the way you grew up and and it should be missing from how everyone grows up like that shouldn't be a thing in my opinion you know and that's a big issue that i have is when people associate like of my age group associate like fame or notoriety or celebrity with doing something good like that's not those two aren't always linked sometimes usually but not always you know what i mean and like back you know my mom talks about how you know she used to watch the jarny carson show and that was like how Seinfeld came up. And that was like the only show you could do.

And people who were on there had a talent. You know what I mean? And now you do watch some of these late night shows. And, you know, if there's 10 people who go up there, I don't know if even six of them, I would say, you know, have that discernible talent. Like you would say they're more like mogul type presence or reality show stars and this sorts of thing. like mogul type presence or reality show stars and this sorts of thing and that's what i think does create a weird boundary or dissonance for kids who are young as they go like that's what i want i just want a bunch of people to like my photo and i want a bunch of people to know me but i don't care about why right and i think that's a huge huge problem that almost no one

talks you don't have anything to offer really right you know so it's like what what's your craft work on the thing that actually would contribute that would make somebody pay attention to whatever it is you have to say exactly and that's like that's is my big problem and i do think that people don't talk about that enough i do think in a weird way millennials get too uh lumped into like everyone's just changing the world you know if you're just in your 20s right now you're changing the world and it's like no it's just changing the world. You know, if you're just in your 20s right now, you're changing the world. And it's like, no, it's all about me. And like, you know, I'm going to be me and don't tell me what I'm going to do. You know what I mean? Like, there's no rules, man. There's no rules. Yeah, exactly. You know, that's not a great message. And that message is definitely fueled through advertising. Yeah, no, for sure. And that's what I mean. It's just like

the sort of whole culture around success, like especially in Western culture, is almost a little bit crippling to me. Because like, if you like, there's this great documentary of Jerry Seinfeld made called Comedian. And it's when he's, I don't know if you've seen it, but it's when he's finished Seinfeld, and he's trying to work on a new hour. And he's with this young comedian who they sort of parallel Orny Adams in the whole movie, right? And there's this one scene where they're talking and Orny's going to him. He's like, you know, he's like, I'm just like worried that it's not happening. He's like, I'm about to turn 30. He's like, I got friends on Wall Street who are making all this money. And Jerry goes, what? He's like, what are you talking about? And he tells them this story

about these guys on the road and how they're like, they got all their gear and they're trudging through the snow and they walk and they see this house and they can see inside the house and these people are like sort of sitting there just really quietly reading a newspaper and a book and this is this band whose bus is broken down they got all their gear on their back they're trudging through the snow trying to get to the gig and the band looks at each other and goes huh how do people live like that and that's jerry's story like that's his parallel just i think that just means like they just love it so much they couldn't imagine doing anything else you know and i think that's means they just love it so much they couldn't imagine doing anything else. And I think that's how everyone should feel about what you do.

I wouldn't leave what I do really for anything. You know what I mean? And I want to follow it through, and I want to go through all that stuff. And I think in Seinfeld's day, what he's saying is he did stand up for 10, 15 years in New York before anything happened for him, before there was a show. And now, just with media and stuff, there is almost a double standard of being like, if you're any good, you're going to go viral right away.

You'll be famous in a week. And if you're not famous in a week, it's because you suck. And I think that's ridiculous. You know what I mean? I just think that's so... Yeah, unquestionably. Unquestionably. And I think that to be great at anything, yeah, it's stupid as it's stupid as it sounds, like the 10,000 hour rule, like, you know, it still holds true.

Like, you can't be expected to be, look, you're a freak of nature. You get up your first public speaking gig, you get 2 million views on your TED Talk. Like, that is not like something that anybody else could ever hope to copy or mimic you know it just right it was a freak circumstance of of timing and you know as beautiful and as poetic as your talk was there was like the the stars aligned yeah there's a lot you know what i mean sure um and i'm sure after that you've continued to learn to be a better and a better and a better and a better speaker and now you speak all the time right yeah sure um but uh you know this idea that um that you're just going to come out of the gate strong, you know, and you're going to blow up your Instagram or something like that. It's ridiculous.

It makes no sense to me. And it's the wrong goal. No, yeah, it isn't. It's falling in love with the process. And you're very, I think, you know, I want to acknowledge that you're in a privileged place in the sense that you do know, you know, what your life is about, and you have a great passion for what you're doing. And I do too. It's something I came into much later in my life, and I know what it's like to be on a career trajectory that's not fulfilling and to not know what it is that's going to make me happy. And I understand, and I'm very

empathetic to that kind of confusing place of going of going you know i want to feel like that about my career but i just don't and i don't know what i would need to do to get i don't even know what it would be that would make me feel that way right and i think that that is the more common yeah condition no no certainly no definitely and i don't want to you know try and pretend like i know very much about any of you know that necessarily but i i just do think there is something you're 22 dude you don't know anything no exactly so just take it all with a you know a pound of salt not a grain but like i just think that you know for myself at least like these kids and people my age we do have a unique opportunity you know what i mean like there is this is a

unique time and i think in 20 years from now all this media stuff online will be a lot more saturated and harder to break into, blah, blah, blah. So I just think that there's an amazing ability where if you do have something that you love or you do have something that excites you, you can hone that craft and you can find a way to package it, to put it out there for people, to make an impact, to make an income, even all those kinds of things. And that should just be what people focus on as opposed to some end result. And I know, and I only say that because for myself, like I've gone through

that multiple times, even, you know, like being like, well, I want it to be even bigger now. And if I did another Ted talk, I'd want it to be like this, but it's all, I know that's a trap. You know what I mean? Like, I know that holds me out of creating my best work. Like the second, I think you start being like, what are people going to think is the second it maybe you're trying to anticipate an audience reaction as opposed to what is the thing that's stirring inside of me that i feel the need to express right and like the the writing advice that i've always loved is write the book you want to read you know what i mean like that sort of stuff and i know that like follow your passion all that's very cliche and overused but i just mean like if you do have something in your hands that is a skill set or something that you just you think about it every

day and you can't stop thinking about it the same way i couldn't stop thinking about stand-up when i was a teenager you do have this unique avenue now to pursue that and to pursue it intelligently and to have the access and the the ability to put it out online and for people across the world to see it and i do think that is kind of a responsibility and kind of a privilege that my generation people my age should hold on to a little bit tighter and go like hey i really want to be good because why do you want this big audience if you can't even serve them yet you know what i mean like if you're not even really ready to create your best stuff why do you want that that to me oh you don't know yeah i got mad skills oh man no doubt no exactly but i yeah i don't know i just think that there's there there's so many people doing so many good things

that it's it's a bit silly to focus on who's not doing what or how things are negative or people who aren't doing it the right way but just just, I do have, like, I follow a lot of entrepreneurial type people on social media, like sort of the Gary Vaynerchuk, Tim Ferriss type world. And I love it. Gary's big on hard work. Exactly. You know what I mean?

No, exactly. He's, he's not down with the whole life hack thing. No, not at all. Hustle. And I work harder than you.

Yeah. And so, and so is Tim, even though he wrote a book called the four hour work week, but like, um, you know, Gary put out this video a few days ago i tweeted at him i was like man i love this video and it was about passive income and just like this big idea you know on the internet that like you can just sort of create this website and then the money's just going to flow in and there's gary had this quote where he's like you know laying on the beach in jamaica smoking weed

while the money just keeps rolling in isn't as realistic as you think, partner. And it just really hit home being like, yeah, there's way too much of that. There's way too much of that. That idea where it's like, I just want the success. I just want the result. And I don't actually want to have to do anything because why would I? And that sort of idea I just think is really weird. And there's so much of it out there,

like all these articles you see being shared around, it's like five things you're not doing and blah, blah, blah. The internet is propagated with these internet marketing experts that are throwing so much bullshit at people. And the problem is a lot of those tactics work, but they're just so unpalatable. And I feel know maybe somebody in my generation can like fall into that you know sort of trap or that you know get caught in some kind of you know email chain labyrinth where you can't escape until you buy somebody's ebook but i feel like your generation is much more attuned to you know your bullshit meter is very very strong and you can see kind of all that stuff coming at you from a million miles away for sure but i just do think there's a weird ability now where it's like it's almost easier to sell the

idea of success than just like be successful you know what i mean like there's a lot of that stuff is cultivated around like like marketing tactics to you know sort of get people to part with their wallet and there's zero discussion of of the actual quality of whatever content it is that would actually you know merit somebody parting with a dollar you know what i mean like that doesn't even part of the discussion so it's completely backwards yeah so i when i see like i subscribe to some of these newsletters just because i i get fascinated by how these people are doing this. Same way.

I'm like appalled by it, but I'm like, I can't. No, it's fascinating. I have to like watch the car crash and go like, what are they doing? And like, I'm like, oh, wow, people are actually like subscribing to this stuff. That's fascinating. Like what is really going on here? And I try to like do a forensic analysis on it. No.

But like, I just can't stand any of it. I gotta stop doing that well like for me like that situation like to my generation i think is like these inspirational quote pages and i think it's this really fascinating thing where i was reading this article recently by this guy who had been studying what reading like inspirational or motivational quotes does to your brain he was saying gives you the same almost release of happiness that does from like accomplishing a small meaningful task like something that you needed to do but had been putting off and then you do it and you get that feeling of like i'm out from under that weight and he was saying there's

that same sort of like little quick hit of that when you read like an inspiring quote and i think it's just so fascinating where there's so many of these pages and people who are putting this stuff out it's like some picture of like a lion and it's like surround yourself with those on the same mission as you and it's just so cheesy and like ridiculous yet people seem to like really of my generation especially like eat it up and really love it and it's just interesting because it's like to me that stuff doesn't have very much to do with the work and if you need that much external motivation maybe you're not that motivated to do the thing in the first place. You know, like I just feel like personally, I want to, I'd rather like work from a big mission of being like, this is what I really want to create overall. This is

the body of work I want to leave behind. And then take small sort of intentional, but like incremental steps to like actually making that happen. I don't really actually feel like I need a lot of motivation. I don't feel like I really need a pep talk to like sit at my computer and well you have a you're driven and you have a trajectory and you have a solid you know grip on like where you want to go and how to get there you know but do you really think that those quotes and stuff like help someone who is in your situation who's like i'm completely with you uh when i had ryan holiday on the podcast we talked about this very subject i don't know if you listened yeah i did but we yeah we were like because i have that same thing i see that stuff on instagram and i'm like god like that people like like they get tons of

likes like people love that stuff but for me i'm like like i just can't imagine doing like posting something like that on my feed like it just feels and i think it feels like a false note to me um and and ryan was talking about that very thing where it's like there's those studies that show that like when people read that and it gives them that feeling and then they're almost tricked into believing that they actually did something like whatever that impulse is to go out and achieve or whatever that feeling that they're seeking through actually taking an action is served by uh you know whatever the dopamine response is by reading that.

And then it actually can work against you because it prevents you from taking the action because you've already gotten the reward. Exactly. Good feeling from reading that. So it's actually working at odds with, yeah. So it's, it's really interesting,

I think. But that, that to me is like a small case study example of like a bigger thing that I do think is happening with millennials is just like this motivational society and this motivational kind of like movement that doesn't necessarily have much substance to it. Like it's great in principle if everyone is like, yeah, like I have my thing that I'm really focused on and it helps motivate me, whatever. and it helps motivate me, whatever. But I do feel like there is this false motivation. It's like what I was saying, the idea of you can just sell success versus being successful.

That's kind of counterproductive to how much potential some of these kids have. And that's what I really think is that it's limiting in a sense because it's so cliche and it's so obvious that it makes them go like, ah, it's so easy and that's all there is to it. You know what I mean?

Just grind, man, just grind. All these sort of buzzwords. But they don't necessarily have substance behind them, and it doesn't necessarily blend in well with the narrative of, like, what they want to do or what they're seeking to find. But it's just so shareable. And it's not completely honest. Tenditia of how we live our lives on social media in the sense that we position ourselves to reveal the person that we want other people to see. Exactly. Not the real person. And part of your kind of call to action and through your TED Talk and the work that you do is to pull covers on that and go, look, this is who I really am.

Dark and light. You have to embrace both. Right. And when you see that kind of stuff, it's so one-, you know what I mean? Like, yeah, just do, you know, do this, do whatever. It's like, no, actually we all have these like demons and we all have these dark nights of the soul and we all have our struggles and our pains. And, you know, let's look at that because that's ultimately, you know, if we're willing to invest in the work to kind of work through all that stuff, that's how we can get to a healthier place where, you know, your goals might actually be much more accessible than just,

you know, sort of capitalizing on a, you know, a catchphrase. Well, exactly. And that's, I think that's exactly it is it's just, you should have something bigger in your life or something more a bigger driving force than just sort of motivation or inspiration like you should have something you someone you seek to serve or someone that you you know what i mean that you tangibly want to reach and that you tangibly want to connect with and that can drive you and i think that like one of my favorite things i've ever read of yours is a sort of blog post elaborating on that tweet that you had that everyone's loving like about not like not going for life hacks you know what i mean and you wrote a post somewhere on your blog i think about just sort of like the summary of that

and i think that it's very compelling and very important for young people because there is just there's so much stuff like that that it's almost debilitating and it's almost drowning because you go oh i don't think anyone else has fears like me i think everyone else is just type a very motivated like wouldn't you agree though like talking about don't think anyone else has fears like me. I think everyone else is just type A, very motivated. And like, wouldn't you agree though, that like talking about what you just said, like the fears, the demons, the dark nights of the soul, that's the stuff that to me, at least maybe I'm just a total weirdo, but like that inspires me. Like that makes me feel more human. Like that makes me feel more connected to the person who's sharing that. That makes me feel like it's going to be okay. Like I'm not alone. Like some really good positive feelings that make

me go like, nah, I'm going to keep going on this path. You know, like it's okay because people have been there. But when you only show, like you said, that one dimensional side, is it not incredibly crippling to the kid who's like sitting there being like, I don't know how to get started. I'm afraid. Yeah. Yeah. Like I can't get on board with that because nobody feels the way that I feel. Right. Exactly. So you're immediately isolating that person. Exactly. And the intention behind it all is obviously good. It's to get people to do the thing that they want and to create value in the world and have a meaningful life. But I just think it's a really scary culture and narrative when we start going, you should just always be inspired and, you know, just never sleep and all these sorts of things it's like it's really bizarre it just doesn't blend in well to being like have a good balanced like sort of a

healthy lifestyle you know yeah and that's what i think is ironic though is people look up to gary vaynerchuk people look up to tim ferrith but they somehow find these amazing ways to sort of misinterpret a lot of what they're saying and like like you said when i first brought up gary the number one thing he talks about is hard work. And the thing he puts before that is his family. But nobody wants to talk about that. You know what I mean? Everyone just wants to be like,

well, this is how you invest in the next Uber and just work 25 hours a day. And it's just like, that's not even what he's saying. You know what I mean? You're just sort of selectively taking what it is that you want that kind of fits into this motivational type world. And that's always been my big problem with like speaking and conferences.

And those are some of the only gigs I'll turn down is like big conferences where there's like a lot of quote unquote, like motivational people. Cause I'm like, I just don't fit in here at all. And like, I'm going to ruin the whole mood because like my thing is not to be like that, you know? And I feel like it's a really, cause you'll see that too with like speakers or guys are like speaking about motivation and success but the way that they've been successful is by speaking about success right it's a weird it's a weird cycle you know what i mean there's a lot of that with like who people who are offering online courses and how to

like build your career or build your business they only sell online courses yeah so it's like about online courses yeah exactly it's like uh or a boris you know what i mean or like a snake eating its tail it's a very weird but that's exactly what i mean and to me that's not being connected to a bigger thing that's not actually caring about your craft that's just about wanting an end result and that's what i think is the antithesis of what millennials should be about because if you look at the people like on the parade list of top millennial influencers all those people have like really created big value for someone outside like mark zuckerberg's connected millions of people malala's like freed a whole gender from how they should be confined like there's some pretty powerful

stuff there and i think that's why it's meaningful it's not just because mark zuckerberg became a billionaire you know what i mean like there's something deeper than just like, hey, you made a lot of money or a lot of people know your name. But I do think some of that gets lost because the way that we put out content and we storytell now is so micro and it's so tiny and it needs to be so digestible

that it sometimes lacks depth because it's just like, hey, I just did this good thing. But there's no room in that 140-character tweet to be like, and this is everything that went into it. You know what I mean? And almost like people don't even sometimes want to hear that. Like you'll see people's tweets. They'll do really well when they're short,

but then Tim Ferriss will drop an 8,000-word blog post, and it's just not as cool. This is a little bit more dense. I can't read this in two minutes. Yeah, exactly, exactly. And I think that that's like for myself, I've just never identified with that mentality. I've just always felt like, yeah, really compelled to learn about the people I like. And that's what I would recommend to anyone who is listening to this who's a young person. It's like, just find people that you really connect

with and obsess over their content. Like, you know, when I first discovered your podcast, I must have blasted through like 30, 40 episodes, you know? And it's just because the conversations were real and honest and they didn't have an agenda. Like that was what I liked about it. It was just a real conversation. And same thing when I first started listening to Joe Rogan's podcast, like just find that stuff and connect with it

because that's the real power of like the internet is to self-select and self-curate your own like newsfeed because I think the stuff that other people might require a little responsibility because it's easy to just like have your your feed be buzzfeed exactly or or gawker or whatever you know whatever else that you have to be intentional about it yeah you have to like you have to exert yourself to make sure that what you're exposing yourself to is actually going to raise your consciousness as opposed to, and that's, that requires discipline because most of the stuff on the internet is not, is not raising your vibration if you're not, if you're not judicious about it. And that's what I really

liked about, you know, you and Josh Shipp's episode was talking about like, you know, being on social less, like being on your phone less, like setting boundaries. Like, I think that's a conversation people need to have. like nothing actually makes me more rattled or more like sort of angry than when i'm with a friend and it's like we're just looking at our phones like that's just so mind-blowing to me like i read this article by john acuff who's a writer recently wrote something for time and he was saying that none of us would ever say hey want to go to dinner and stare at our phones but that's what we do you know what i mean like we take these actions that if we were to verbalize them wouldn't make complete sense or we'd be like yeah that's a bit weird but then we do them and i think that it's just so ridiculous that we feel this need to be like hyper plugged in all the

time and that was something that i really resonated about with that episode with you and josh i was going like maybe it's not even that good to always be on social like you were saying like you can sort of lie to yourself and go oh it's for work oh it's for my business but is it really you know what i mean i think everyone kind of has that and when you remove that from yourself or just set a boundary around it it does create like a little bit of silence or a little bit of space be like what's the important work that i should be doing yeah right like what's the thing that like one inspires you but two is actually going to serve your audience more than a clever tweet yeah and i feel i feel like it's you know there is that like backlash you know like the in the same way that like you know vinyl is back and like analog culture is now cool like you know my 21 year old

he's not on facebook he's not on instagram he's not on twitter he took email off his phone you know what i mean like he's been very intentional about, like, not falling into that trap. Yeah. And I've, you know, as a result of my conversation with Josh and with other people, you know, I'm on social, but I have some, you know, clearer boundaries around it. And I try to be more intentional and conscientious about it and not, like, waste time on it. But I find myself on my phone more than my son. You know what I mean?

Right. Right. So, it's weird. But I find myself on my phone more than my son. You know what I mean? Right, right. So it's weird. Like, I'm the older guy, but he's the one who's like, actually has a healthier, you know, boundary around it than I do.

And I do fall into that trap of like, yeah, but it's like, this is what I do or whatever. Right. But that's, you know, that's convenient. It is convenient. Yeah. So it's like, it's kind of BS, right? Exactly. And I think it goes to, anyway, whatever.

We could talk about this all day no it's interesting though yeah it is it is just because I do feel like to a large part there is this thing where there's so much information there's so much content that you can become a little bit ungrateful for like your real life and the moments you're actually given

and for me that's been a thing because I could just read messages on my Facebook page for hours you know what I mean? It's like, I do need to get back in touch with that. And I think it's worth talking about is, you know, it's cliche or lame as it sounds, but put down your phone, man, go live your life. But it's like, you know, I just think, like you said, wasting time to me,

that's been a big thing in my life since those really dark years of like when I was a teenager and really struggling with depression and like sleeping in so late and stuff. I just don't like that feeling. You know what I mean? Not that I feel like I always need to be productive, but I want to feel like I'm at least engaging and like experiencing real life to some degree, you know, and that's important to me. And I think that sometimes the phone stuff gets in the way of that. Right, right, right. All right. Well, we got to lock it down here in a little bit, but I can't let you go without like two kind of final inquiries. And the first one is, you know, just some sort of words of wisdom or encouragement or advice for, you know, somebody who's listening to this right now who is stuck in the throes of depression and maybe can't find their way out. can't find their way out. Yeah. I mean, it's a loaded question, but I'll give it my best shot.

I think that, you know, I can only speak to my own experience. And for me, what's been most helpful is like a lot of stuff we've hit on a bunch already. So I, sorry if it sounds redundant, but like just something about being able to be like really honest with a close group of people. And for myself, I gave a Ted talk and I'll write about it and I've got a book and stuff, but you don't, it doesn't need to be that public for you, obviously. You know, like for someone who's listening to this and is struggling, literally a conversation with one to two people who are close to you and you really trust can give you so much more freedom over your own identity than you ever really thought. And there's something just really amazing about being able to be transparent and to

not have to sort of hide. And that was something that for myself was the most exhausting part was like playing the character, putting on the costume, wearing the mask all the time and just not being real. And so like, that's for me, the first thing. But the second thing is also just to understand that I really, I really do deeply believe like there is an upside to these experiences. And whether you want to believe that things happen for a reason, or you have some sort of faith in your life whatever it may be I do think that there's something really powerful that can come out of those moments and there's something that's really amazing that come out and for me it's been the most transformative part of my life is to be able

to explore that stuff and to be able to continually explore and like like I said I still go to counseling like when I get home on Monday I have an appointment and I'll go and I'm not just going to talk about like, Hey, have I been depressed recently or not? Like I talk about every aspect of my life. And I think there's something really good about just exploring that and just, you know, being there and sitting in those moments. And like you said, not feeding someone the thing that you think they want them to hear, but saying like, what's actually real. And then the third thing is like, if you are stuck in that place though, and those things seem too hard and you feel like you can't get an inch out of bed and you're really in that moment, the place that I was, you know, when I was 17 years old and

writing that suicide note, I think the best thing you can do is just ask one person for help. And I think that that is actually not an act of cowardness but an act of like actual courage and bravery because it's really saying that you're not in a place where you can put the pieces back together like you're going to need support and community and help and for me that's like what i said earlier but i really this is why i feel most lucky and most grateful is because i genuinely believe i had a small group of people who cared about putting my life back together more than i even cared about it. And I think that that's, you know.

Sorry, I didn't mean to interrupt you. No, no, no. Yeah. If somebody feels like they don't have anyone that they can trust, are there online resources that are, like I'm sure there's a million online resources, but like what are some of the good ones? I only really recommend one, and it's just because of the personal relationship I have with them.

They're in the back of my book, and it's the group I talked about earlier, To Write Love on Her Arms. It was started by my friend Jamie Tworkowski about eight years ago now, and they're a nonprofit out of Florida. They've responded to literally hundreds of thousands of messages. You can write them an email. They're not a suicide hotline if you're in a moment of crisis. It's definitely not the right place to turn to. But if you want to be heard, they're there for that. But more than anything, they have millions, literally millions of fans on Facebook, social, whatever. And it's a real community. People post stuff on there and people reply. You know what I mean? And there's conversations that happen there. And it's a place to be seen

and to be heard and to be acknowledged. And it doesn't have to come at the cost of opening up to your neighbor you know like you can go there and you can have these conversations they have an amazing blog they put out content three to four times a week i mean they just really do incredible stuff and i would i would suggest someone to plug themselves into that community because there's a like-minded group of people who are there to really support each other and to be there for each other, and it's got a great mission. So, yeah, I would recommend that, to write Love on Her Arms, and you can find them easily through Google and their website and stuff.

But I think that that is really important. And if it's not that for you, if it's not an online thing, then try and find a group of people that you can really connect with like that in real life, like the same thing you're talking about with your people you'll talk to when you're in a weak moment or addiction and that sort of stuff like having those conversations it's like really awesome right right right and and the final thing is how do you effectively communicate uh with somebody who in your life who is suffering maybe suffering quietly like let's say you're a parent, you have a teenage daughter, or your brother,

or like your buddy at work, or somebody that you can see, you're like, yeah, something's not right. They're struggling. Like, how do you broach the subject? You know, how can you be of maximum service to that person? Because I think what happens is people just, they don't know how to deal with it.

So they do. They either avoid it, or they don't know what the right thing to say is. And they feel like, well, maybe it's not my business. But I'd like to help this person, but I wouldn't even know where to begin. Right. Yeah, well, as a 22-year-old with no kids, I feel extremely qualified to give parenting advice. So let me start there.

No, I'm just totally kidding. Yeah, but you know on the receiving end of that what will be received and what will be rejected. Well, this isn't my idea this is borrowed from a guy named andrew solomon who wrote a great book on uh on depression and it's really fascinating but he said if depression is anything if it's a disease if it's anything it's one of loneliness and i thought that was really interesting he gave the metaphor of just being like if you can't be there for someone if someone won't let you talk to them if someone won't let you into the world then just sit outside their door and i thought that was a really powerful metaphor like for this whole thing it's just to let someone know that you're there for them right yeah and i think that that's like the number one thing and i talked about this a little bit in the

book but being like when i was writing that suicide note there was these feelings of like guilt and like you know some very strong impulses to not go through with it. And maybe the biggest one was my mom and my sister, because even though they had only known glimmers or little pieces or little things about what was going on, I knew that they were the kind of people who would sit outside the door. You know what I mean? And that just makes you feel less alone, like you're loved, like you're cared for, like you're known by someone. And I think that that's something that all of us can do, even if you've never struggled, even if you feel like this whole conversation doesn't necessarily apply to you, but there's someone in your life who you feel like it does. You don't have to have

anything good to say to them. You don't need any advice or anything like that. You just need to be there for them. And I think that that's really, you know, powerful in any element of grief or pain. But it's like, that's for me, it's like, that would be the number one thing I would say. And that's the thing that my mom really did a good job of. She's like, always knew, I always knew that she was the kind of person who would sit outside my door. So yeah. Good advice, man. Hey man, I don't have much of it, but hopefully that's something. Thanks for talking to me.

Yeah, no problem. We did it. Yeah. It's pretty good, right? It's great. You all right? Yeah. You rocked it. You don't seem depressed today.

Yeah, no, no, no. It's a good day. right? Yeah. You rocked it. You don't seem depressed today. Yeah, no, no, no. It's a good day. Cool. That was awesome, man. Thank you. It's inspiring what you're doing. And I have nothing but mad love and respect for you. And I can't wait to see the book come out and light the universe on fire. Yeah, man. Well, I got your copy sitting right there. I know. I can't wait to crack it. So, cool. if you're digging on um kevin he's pretty easy to find kevinbriel.com and at kevinbriel pretty much everywhere on the internet right there you go that's simple clean and where are you you have a bunch of uh speaking gigs coming up yeah i got a book tour coming up like 25 cities full on yeah yeah so boston college

harvard some cool places so we're going to be releasing that soon. How many colleges have you spoken at? Oh, over 100. Wow. Yeah. That's amazing. Yeah, I like it, though. There's these millennials, you know? Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Very cool. I've only done a couple. I want to do more. We've got to get you out there. Yeah, I need to talk to you. Yeah. All right, man. Thanks.

Peace. Blants. Big love for Kevin Briel. I really enjoyed that conversation and I hope you guys did too. He's kind of an exceptional guy and I wish him much success. And along those lines, your assignment for this week, pick up Boy Meets Depression. You'll be glad you did. Watch Cowspiracy on Netflix because you got to do it. And pre-order Dr. Garth Davis's book, Proteinaholic. Why don't you do that?

Good stuff, right? For all your plant power needs, go to richroll.com. You can check out our new cookbook, The Plant Power Way. You can get signed copies of Finding Ultra. We got Julie's Meditation Program. We got nutrition products. We got organic cotton garments. We got plant power tech teas.

We got sticker packs. We got temporary tattoos. We got organic cotton garments. We got plant power tech teas. We got sticker packs. We got temporary tattoos. We got limited edition art prints, all kinds of cool stuff. Basically everything you need to notch up your health and your life to the next level. What else can I tell you? I think that's it. Oh yeah. I've got online courses at mindbodygreen.com.

The art of living with purpose and the ultimate guide to plant-based nutrition. Multiple hours of streaming video content online communities really great very affordably priced under 100 bucks each of them and the price varies depending upon what mind body green is doing but you can learn more about it and find out all that kind of information by going to mind body green.com and clicking on video courses thanks so much for all the support you guys for sharing this show with your friend and on social media and all that kind of good stuff. I really appreciate it. This podcast means everything to me. And the fact that you guys are such an engaged audience really just puts it over

the top for me. I do this for you guys. And I'm really happy. I've been getting all the emails from you guys. And I really, really appreciate you guys reaching out and letting me know what you think about the show. So thank you so much. I'll see you guys in a few days. Make it a great week and we've got lots of good shows coming up. So don't go anywhere. All right, you guys. Peace. Plants. Thank you.