The Rich Roll Podcast - Life After Free Solo: Alex Honnold On Risk Post Kids, Transcending Fear, Parenting, The Devil’s Climb, & More

Episode Date: October 14, 2024

Alex Honnold is a global climbing icon, founder of the Honnold Foundation, and the protagonist in the Oscar-winning documentary “Free Solo.” This conversation explores the confluence of extreme athleticism and fatherhood, delving into Alex’s evolving risk calculus and approach to adventure. We discuss Alex’s recent 2,600-mile expedition to Alaska’s Devil’s Thumb, environmental activism, his passion for climbing, embracing uncertainty, and many other topics. His dry wit shines as he answers listener questions: everything from the ethics of risk-taking to late-night cookie binges.  Alex is someone I deeply admire, and this conversation is both edifying and entertaining. Enjoy! Show notes + MORE Watch on YouTube Newsletter Sign-Up Today’s Sponsors:  Eight Sleep: Use code RICHROLL to get $350 OFF Pod 4 Ultra👉eightsleep.com/richroll LMNT: Get a FREE Sample Pack with any drink mix purchase👉drinkLMNT.com/RICHROLL Go Brewing: use the code Rich Roll for 15% OFF  👉gobrewing.com Nordic Track: Transform your home fitness space with NordicTrack’s lineup of treadmills, bikes, rowers, and more 👉NordicTrack.com Whoop: Get a FREE one month trial 👉join.whoop.com/roll Waking Up: Get a FREE month, plus $30 OFF  👉wakingup.com/RICHROLL Check out all of the amazing discounts from our Sponsors 👉 richroll.com/sponsors Find out more about Voicing Change Media at voicingchange.media and follow us @voicingchange

We're brought to you today by 8Sleep. If you're serious about sleep hygiene, then I gotta say the Pod 4 Ultra from 8Sleep is a game changer. This innovative sleep technology enhances your existing mattress with powerful cooling, heating, and automatic elevation, delivering an unparalleled sleep experience. The Pod can automatically cool each side of the bed to 20 degrees Fahrenheit below room temperature and gently elevate your head to reduce snoring up to 32%. But the Ultra takes it further with an adjustable base that provides customized positions for each side of

the bed for sleeping, reading, and relaxing. After using the pod, I gotta tell you my sleep quality has never been better. More deep sleep, less 2 a.m. waking, and just faster sleep onset. It's even clinically proven to provide an extra hour of sleep per night. That is invaluable. The pod adjusts temperature and elevation based on biometric tracking via autopilot AI. It's also 40% quieter than previous models. If you want to transform your sleep, your energy levels, and overall performance, get the Pod 4 Ultra. It's trusted by elite athletes and backed by science. Head to 8sleep.com slash richroll and use code RICHRroll at checkout to get $350 off the Pod 4 Ultra. That's 8sleep, E-I-G-H-T, sleep.com slash richroll. Currently ships to the United States, Canada, the United Kingdom, Europe, and Australia.

We're brought to you today by a very exciting sponsor, Go Brewing. I am sober. I don't drink. And I devoted so many episodes of this podcast to the unreal benefits of an alcohol-free lifestyle. Why? Because even if you don't have issues with booze and suds, no amount of alcohol is good for you. At a minimum, it wreaks havoc on your sleep and produces a hangover that destroys your energy, your mood, and your focus. At worst, it turns your whole life upside down.

But no longer does that mean you have to break up with your favorite brew. Because my pals at Go Brewing are making all your favorite brews, minus the alcohol, fewer calories, and more productive tomorrows. Made with natural ingredients faithful to traditional beer styles, Go Brewing has an impressive lineup of delicious, small-batch, craft, alcohol-free brews, all without added sugar or artificial processing. My favorite is their double IPA, not just another story. But basically, not just another story. But basically, you just really can't go wrong because everything they make is brewed to perfection,

worthy of trying yourself, which you can now do at gobrewing.com. That's gobrewing.com and use the code RICHROLL for 15% off your first purchase. Staying calm and performing at your best when you know that any mistake could mean death requires a certain kind of mindset. Everybody now asks variations of that question,

like, as a dad, do you still take risks? And the trite answer is just that I didn't want to die before, and I still don't want to die. Your favorite master of death-defying, ropeless ascents is back. I'm talking, of course, about Alex Honnold. Effort is effort.

You know, like, you have to try hard if you want to do hard things. In the house, once again, to catch up on life and to go deep on his recent expedition with best friend Tommy Caldwell, the first ever single-day traverse of all five peaks of the Devil's Thumb Massif. We have a chance to do something that's never been done before. One simple thing could kill you both. 2,600 miles by bike,

by foot, by sea, all of which is gorgeously chronicled in the new National Geographic documentary, The Devil's Climb. No one has ever attempted all five peaks in a single day. This will be the grandest adventure that we've been on. But Alex really comes alive in the second half of this episode where he takes a bunch of fun, random questions from all of you and answers them in his trademark deadpan style. You want to pick one of these? Let's see what we got here. Is there a support group you attend for people whose amygdala doesn't fire? That's funny.

Good to see you, man. Thanks for doing this. Pleasure. Good to see you, man. Thanks for doing this. Oh, pleasure. Good to see you again. I think it's like the third time, fourth time. I can't remember. It might be the fourth. Yeah.

Which I almost feel bad about. It's like, what are we gonna talk about? Yeah, exactly. Are you allowed to have people on that many times? Of course, man. Only my favorite people. I appreciate that. But there is a lot to talk about.

I mean, you're here, you just, you were at this solar regenerative energy conference. Yeah, that's what brought you here. So we can talk about some environmental stuff and developments. You just did Daniel Tosh's podcast, which I'm curious about. I find that guy like fascinating and very entertaining.

Yeah, see, I never have seen any of his standup or his show or anything. So I didn't, you know, I just, I just read about him on the way there and was like, oh, comedian, people are into this. And then I was like, yeah, totally interesting. Yeah. Did he throw some weird questions at you? Yeah, I definitely had a more comedic slant than, than most podcasts, maybe less serious than, than some podcasts.

And you did, this must've, this was a while ago though, but didn't you, you did like a day with David Letterman, right? Yeah. When you took him out, you belayed him, you guys went climbing for that like show, that Netflix show that he does? No, it wasn't for the show. So he just wanted to do a live event. He just wanted to do a thing with me. And so it was just a one-off live thing.

It wasn't recorded, it wasn't broadcast anywhere. So it was, you know, like whatever, a couple hundred people in Ontario. I forget how big the venue is, but they sold tickets and we just chatted and it was great. I don't know why I thought that would, I just assumed that was for his Netflix show.

I know, it's kind of too bad it wasn't because it was honestly one of the best interviews I've ever done, probably. Like one of the, there's like great live event. We had a great time. It was really good. The audience loved it. It was like super fun.

And you're like, oh, it was just live and now it's done. It's over and it's gone. They didn't even film it? I don't think so. I think it's just, it's just its own thing. What made it such a good interview? As an interviewer, I'm always curious. I mean, he's the goat obviously, but.

Yeah, it was hard to tell. I think we just both had a good time and just to kind of like rose to the occasion and had, I don't know. Yeah, it was hard to say, but I think at the beginning, I mean, so I'd never, I didn't grow up watching Letterman or anything, so I didn't really know his style of humor,

but he's so dry. And so when I met him at the climbing gym and we were doing a little climbing skit thing, I basically had no idea when he was joking or not and when he was being serious. And if it's all a joke, if it's not a joke, if you know, I like couldn't read him at all. I was like, I have no idea.

Now you realize this is the experience that a lot of people have with you. Cause you're very dry and blunt and it's not always clear when you're joking or you're just being direct. Yeah, but the difference is that I'm not a comedian. So I'm not trying to joke all the time with him. It's like, it's all very confusing.

But you're sort of a, I think that like low key, you kind of are a comedian. Like you're actually really funny. There's something about like the dry bluntness in your delivery that is funny. But is there a piece like, cause you know, you have self-awareness around that, don't you? No, I mean, yeah, it's true.

I mean, I like to joke too, but David Letterman is a different level. And I was like, but so some of my friends were slightly worried that between the two of us, both being really dry, that nobody would have any idea what was happening. But it turned out actually, it turned out it was actually great.

So yeah, it was one of the things where you're like, this could either go really poorly or really well. And it turned out it was actually great. Yeah. So yeah, it was one of the things where you're like, this could either go really poorly or really well. And it turned out it went really well. Two guys, you know, bluntly, you know, delivering lines and staring at each other. Exactly, exactly. Totally stone cold. And everyone's like, wait, are they laughing?

Are we supposed to laugh? Yeah, but no, it was really good. Right, wow. I think that the main thing actually that made it good is I think that he actually was kind of like a lifetime fan. He's, for whatever reason, he's been like into outdoor sports. So he'd seen all the shows and like read books

and he's basically like a real fan of like mountain culture, you know, climbing, even though he's not a climber himself and has never climbed, but he was really into it in a way that I think his passion for it had like helped carry the whole thing. That's cool. He was like psyched. So he'd never been like in an indoor climbing gym or anything like that. I don't think so. I don't think before the little

skit that we did. Oh no. I think he'd maybe gone climbing with Lynn Hill on his show. Like one of the world's greatest climbers 30 years ago or something on, on his television show, you know, back in the day, maybe 20 something years ago. Right. But, um, so I think he'd maybe done one climbing skit before, before his TV show, but you know, he's not a climber by any means. One of the curious and kind of weird aspects of your life is that these adventures that you go on, they get documented and you know, these feats,

these accomplishments of yours, then put you in this position to have all these other types of under the radar adventures where you get to position to have all these other types of under the radar adventures where you get to go and meet all these like interesting people and kind of immerse yourself in bizarre subcultures where they kind of pay you to go climbing and you get to meet all kinds of people. Yeah, no, that's definitely,

it definitely makes the rest of life a big adventure also. Where you're like, I'm flying where to do what? You're like crazy, that's fun, that's cool, it's different. Keeps things fresh. How often are you going on those types of adventures these days? I mean, not that much. This pays the bills.

I mean, this is how you can get a house for your mom and all that kind of stuff. It's just part of the job. Yeah, that's part of it. But actually I do kind of block my work travel. So like this summer I was supposed to be in Europe for two months with my wife just climbing. It turns out she got kind of sick and work travel. Uh, so like this summer I was supposed to be in Europe for two months with my wife, just climbing. Um, it turns out she got kind of sick. And so we stayed at home, but, uh, but so I had two months with like no work travel, no anything. We were just at home

and I was climbing full time and taking care of kids and my wife and, and dealing. But I was like, God, this is awesome. You know, two months of just, you know, living as, as I'd like. Um, but now as a result, I'm doing a month of pretty heavy work travel just because I sort of block things. But then later in the fall, I'll go to Yosemite for a month or maybe five weeks of just sort of uninterrupted my time for climbing. Get back to the roots of who you are.

Yeah. How is it working? So you have two kids now, your youngest is like seven months, right? Two and a half year old. I mean, you're full blown, you know, domestic dad, you know, dad life. And I'm sure people ask you this all the time,

but you know, I have to ask, you know, how has that kind of changed your perspective or your relationship with risk and how you're making choices around the adventures that you go on, like has it informed that in any way? Cause it's, I think it's a curious thing like, oh, well now I have to think about all these other people when I used to just have to think about myself.

But fundamentally it's like, this is who you are. And in order for you to like feel fulfilled, you know, this is just what you need to do. So basically everybody now asks variations of that question, like as a dad, do you still take risks? And I've been asked this like twice in the last couple days. And now my answer is kind of like the trite answer is just that I didn't wanna die before

and I still don't wanna die. And so it hasn't really changed that much. You know, you still try to make good decisions and just make sure you don't have an accident. The longer answer is that it's definitely changed the way that I spend my time, because now with, I just spent so much more time at home. I spent so much more time parenting and, you know, and so as a result, I choose different goals for myself. I set different athletic goals. I'm like training in different ways. I'm doing different things. I'm

just at home more. And so I'm definitely taking less risk because I'm just like not trying to do those kinds of things right now. And I don't think it's necessarily because I have a lower tolerance for risk. I think it's just, you know, it's like, it's a seasonal, you're just kind of like, this is the season to be at home and to deal.

Has it changed how you select which adventures you wanna go on though? Well, a little bit. Well, cause you can't be gone all the time anymore. It was like, all right, what are the variables or the factors that go into like the yes? Well, totally, so this is like the granular look at it. Like the details are that,

so I'm trying to be at home a lot more with the kids. And so the stuff that I have around home to climb on is mostly sport climbing. So it's more about climbing hard grades, sort of physically pushing myself, which means consistently trying hard things at home and then training in my garage, basically like working out. And so none of those require any risk taking of any kind.

And so it's not so much that I have less of an appetite for risk, but it's just that if I'm setting goals for myself for like, you know, this fall, I wanna do this hard route and I'm gonna train for it in these ways. Basically if I'm doing any kind of risky climbing, like going soloing or adventuring, that's kind of a distraction from the goals that I've set for myself for the season. And so as a result of, if you spend a couple of seasons just working on hard support routes and, and training and things like that, then the risky climbing all feels a little scarier,

you know, cause you haven't done it in a while. And you're sort of like, well, this is, you're just like a little less current, but you, cause you haven't done it in a while and you're sort of like, well, this is, you're just like a little less current. But you do, you still set goals for yourself. Oh yeah, yeah. I mean, there's all kinds of climbing stuff I wanna do. What are some of the yet to be achieved goals that are on that list? Well, so I'm gonna be in Yosemite for November.

So this is the real way. So I normally set goals, right? Sort of look, say six months out and I'm like, oh, I'd like to do some climbing thing next fall or next spring or whatever. And then I sort of work back from there. Like, what do I need to, to be in shape to do that thing when the time comes? And so in this case, I want to be in Yosemite in November and I'd like to maybe do some things on El Cap. Um, like somebody broke a solo speed record of mine last year. It's the first time that anybody's broken any

of my speed records in, I don't know, 10 or 15 years. I'm sort of like, oh, do you just let it go? Or, you know, I'm sort of like, no, I think I can stay in the game a little more. So we'll see. So I might try to take that back if I get motivated. That's kind of one of those things that it's kind of on the bottom of the list where like, if I'm there

and I feel psyched, then maybe I would try it. But it's not like a priority necessarily. Is that the record that you broke by like eight hours? Did then that get broken again? No, that's a different route. It's a different route, but same idea. That route that I just broke the speed record by a bunch of hours is the South A wall.

This is the record on the nose, which is slightly more competitive and a little more. But anyways, same idea. It's climbing El Cap by yourself, but with equipment. Well, let's talk about this devil's thumb, the devil's climb and the Nat Geo film that has just come out. I don't know when we're releasing this,

but it comes out October 17th. Yeah, October 17th. October 17th. This is a really interesting adventure expedition in that there was a lot more going on than, okay, here's an ascent or a climb and I wanna conquer it and do it my way. Like there was a lot more going on here.

Yeah, no, the whole trip was kind of crazy. I mean, really, so it was an expedition, sort of a journey that I took with Tommy Caldwell, a fellow professional climber and really good friend, somebody who I've climbed with a ton over the years. And so Tommy had this vision that he wanted to ride a bicycle from his house in Colorado to the Devil's Thumb, which is a prominent peak in Alaska. And he wanted to climb a few places along the way because the journey from Colorado to Alaska, you pass a couple other sort of world-class mountain climbing destinations.

So you wanted to go on this long journey, climb these different peaks, and then sail a boat up into the southeastern part of Alaska and climb the double sun. And so I was, basically I wanted to do the climbing with him because the climbing objectives he had are incredible. And then I was kind of like, do I want to bike that far? Because that's a really long bike ride.

It's pretty far. Yeah, it was like 2,400 miles on the bike or something as it turned out, I think. But then, you know, it felt weird to just kind of fly in and climb the different objectives with him and fly out. You know, I felt like if I was going to do it, I should do the whole journey with him because so much of a bike tour is the deep immersion

in the landscape and sort of like really being there and experiencing the West. much of a bike tour is the deep immersion in the landscape and sort of like really being there and experiencing the West. And so, um, but the trip was two months and the year before I'd done the six week expedition to Greenland. And at the time my wife and I, the takeaway was that six weeks is too long to be away from home. You know, I shouldn't do things like that anymore. It's like too hard with the baby and just whatever. And then we're like, surprise next year, we're doing a two month expedition. Though in some ways it wasn't as bad

because there was way better connectivity. You know, with Greenland, I was just gone for six weeks, at least on the bike tour, I could face down to the family and like check in and you know, I'd sell service like normal and everything. Tommy says in the doc, when he proposes it to you, you're like, I can't do that. Sonny's gonna divorce me.

Yeah. And then you call back like a week later and you're like, okay, I'm doing it. Yeah. So what is that, you know, what was that negotiation like? It wasn't really a negotiation. I mean, my wife Sonny understood that climbing with Tommy is always a dream.

You know what I mean? Tommy's been a hero since I was a kid. So like doing any kind of big adventure with Tommy is great. He's, you know, one of my best friends. And then to do an adventure like that, it's just so different to sort of step in and out of it versus doing the whole thing. And so I was kind of like, if I'm gonna,

if Tommy is doing this huge journey, really I should be with him for the whole journey if possible. And then, we're talking to my wife about it and trying to figure out where she would be and how she would have enough support. She was pregnant at the time and we had a baby and we had a one and a half year old, you know,

it's kind of like- Yeah, this is a lot. Yeah, it's a lot. But, you know, with help from the family, like in-laws, people supporting my wife, making sure that she was somewhere with a lot of friends around that she would feel, you know, okay. Though as it turns out, I think it was a lot for her,

but we at least had a good plan. And then, yeah, and then we tried. Explain to people who don't know who Tommy Caldwell is, like why this guy's such a icon. Tommy Caldwell is like, I don't know, I'm trying to think like other sports analogies, he's like the Michael Jordan maybe, or like Larry Bird or something,

like some kind of like iconic sports figure where you're like, oh, he's just the man. But I mean, I grew up, you know, with him on the cover of magazines. He's one of the best climbers in the U S he's put up most of the hard free routes on our cab. Uh, like he's, he's, I mean, actually the shoes that everybody used now are named the TC pro, like the Tommy Caldwell pro model shoe, you know, things like that. You're just like, which is probably comparable to like air Jordans or something where you're like, oh, it's totally defines. Uh, and there's, there's so good. I mean, he's just, he's the man, like, I don't know what, he helped prepare you for the free solo ascent. Yeah. And not just help. Yeah. Yeah. He's in the

film free solo. Cause he, he does some of the climbing with me, but it's not just the direct, you know, sort of helping me prepare. It's also that many of my hardest climbs that I've ever done have been with Tommy because he's one of the only people in the world that can do things like that. And so we've been able to team up on a bunch of things that we were sort of uniquely able to do together

because of the partnership, I think. Yeah, and he's got some crazy stories. I mean, the story about him getting kidnapped when he was 20, you know, in Kyrgyzstan. And then literally having to push his captor off a cliff and the guy tumbling to his death in order to escape and survive. Though he didn't actually die.

Oh, he didn't die. Yeah, yeah, it turns out the guy didn't die. Tommy was sure he killed him because he pushed him off a cliff and they saw the body disappear. And so Tommy thought he killed him and they escaped, which was incredible, it saved their lives, whatever. And then later they found that the guy

had actually survived the fall and then been captured by the Kyrgy forces because it was like a separatist extremist sort of, like basically like terrorist groups that kidnapped them. And so that guy had wound up in prison in Kyrgyzstan because he'd been captured by the military. Wow. But yeah, so.

And then he goes home and starts building this cabin and literally saws off his index finger. Yeah, yeah, he's a nine and a half fingered climber. Yeah, so he's Michael Jordan, but without an important digit. Yeah, he's like Michael Jordan and also with just a crazier backstory and just more, much more rugged,

with all respect to Michael Jordan, but Tommy's like a real mountain man. Like, I mean, what a journey. You guys go on this adventure, it's 2,600 miles over like two months. 2,400 miles I think. 2,400. Well, unless you count the boat in too. I guess you can't, yeah, like all told,

I think it was 2,600. Yeah, maybe it is. Yeah, you ride, you guys are basically on bikes the entire way until you get up into like the Southeast part of Alaska and then you get on a boat. Or were you still in Canada at that point? So yeah, we got on the boat in a port in Canada just because we ran out of roads

and then you have to take the boat up. But no, we actually rode our bikes across Wyoming and then went into the Wind River Range in Wyoming and climbed there for a week. And then we rode up into Canada and went to the Bugaboos, which is a provincial park in British Columbia, I guess. And spent a week or so climbing there and then biked the rest of the way to the edge of British Columbia, kind of where Alaska like trickles all the way down. That's the things we did. You know, when you say bike to Alaska, you think the great north part. But Alaska is actually quite long and it comes way down. That's the things we did. You know, when you say bike to Alaska, you think the great north part, but Alaska is actually quite long

and it comes way down south. And so where we were trying to climb was down in the southeastern part of Alaska. And so then we took a boat up through the, what's it called, the inner passage. Yeah. Yeah, the inside passage, that's what it's called. And this documentary, which is like beautifully captured.

I mean, Renan was like, you forget that you're watching a documentary and you think you're watching a feature film. And then you're like, hold on a second. Like, how did they act? Why is there, how is there a camera on this person? You know, in the predicament that they're in, like it was really well documented and photographed,

but it also operates like this, this like, it's like a road movie. It's like a buddy cop movie. It's sort of like Thelma and Louise meets like 48 Hours, but there's also like a Heart of Darkness. Sort of like you guys are going up the river to like, with this looming threat in the background that has the word devil in it.

It's like, there's like an epicness to all of that, but it's also like, there's a lightheartedness. Like it's as much about your relationship with Tommy as it is about this thing that you're gonna do together. And I think the biggest, like the most meaningful part of it for me was this bond that you have with Tommy and the fulfillment that you got out of like supporting him.

Like this was much less about you and like, you know, doing this thing that no one had ever done before and much more about like wanting to, you know, bring Tommy back after an injury and making sure that, you know, he had this successful experience. That's maybe the key part that people listening

wouldn't have known yet is that, yeah, part of the whole reason for this trip was because Tommy had ruptured his Achilles in a climbing fall, uh, the year before a year and a half before, and then had this really grueling and sort of sad recovery process where he re ruptured it two more times. And so it basically took a year and a half, his Achilles, um, by the end, they just like took a cadaver part and, and like bolted it in. And so now his Achilles is like this indestructible bionic like cadaver thing. But that was after quite a long recovery

and full of a lot of uncertainty for he and his wife. Like, you know, like, will he ever climb again? Will he, you know, can he use his leg? Like, this is terrible. And so part of his recovery was that he'd been biking a lot which I think is part of what inspired his idea to bike to Alaska. I, on the other hand, hadn't biked in forever

and then got completely crushed on the bicycle because Tommy was very fit on the bike. But yeah, so that was definitely a big part of the expedition was to help Tommy sort of ease back into being one of the best mountain climbers in the world. It feels like on a lot of your expeditions, like there's somebody else who's supporting you and it put you kind of more,

it put you more in touch with that supporting role. And my sense was that that gave you a different kind of fulfillment or sense of accomplishment. Yeah, yeah. I haven't really thought about it in that way, but that is kind of true. I mean, it's kind of like when you crew somebody on a race, you know, and it's like, it's not your race,

but it's still great to see your friends succeed and you're still part of something that you're proud of. And though in this case, it was like a really hard crewing. You were crewing it, but you were, you were like in it too. I wasn't really crewing it, but it's a similar sentiment, you know, where you're like, oh, I'm seeing my friends succeed and this is awesome. And, and, and I mean, and the thing is to be fair on the bike, Tom, you know, he would just leave me every day. You know, he was way faster on the bicycle. But then when we get to the mountains, you know, he was reacquainting himself with the limits of his Achilles. And, you know, he was like a little ginger on rock and walking on snow and glaciers. And, you know, to be fair, we are hiking in some of the most difficult environments on Earth, basically like jumping across marines and things and glaciers, you know, like bushwhacking in Alaska through like thick, thick bush.

But I don't know, I mean, just each day you could see him sort of pushing his own limit, like getting better, like getting back to who he was. And you're like, oh, it's cool to see. Yeah, you're soft selling your cycling. I know that you like have done a lot of like endurance stuff. Like this seems to be a new thing. Like you share, oh, you do these one day things.

You got on your bike, you climb, you ride back home or whatever. It feels like you, you have kind of embraced more endurance stuff in your life. Was that in preparation for that? Or is that just a natural thing that you've been? No, I just, I just like, I like adventures. I like doing fun things.

But so in this particular case though, and none of this is in the film, I don't know what it was, but the whole bike ride, I just like never thrived. Like I started the journey quite sick because our baby was really sick and we hadn't slept in forever. And I wound up, I got like a sinus infection or something. And then Tommy's house is in Estes Park, Colorado, which is like 8,000 feet. And so we started our journey 8,000 feet. I was like not acclimatized. I was very sick. And I basically sucked, you know, I was like not acclimatized. I was very sick and I basically sucked. You know, I was like totally wrecked.

And then for the full six weeks of biking, I just felt like I got worse the whole time. Like never really recovered, never felt better. And so at the end of the two month expedition, I came out of it not feeling like peak fitness. I came out of it feeling like totally destroyed, like in a bad way. You know, normally when you do that much exercise,

you're like, oh, I'm getting better at it. You get tired and then you kind of rebound and then you get stronger and stronger. I felt like I had no rebound the whole trip. And so even when we got to the inside passage in Alaska and we were sailing for a week, I got off the boat a week later and it was like, the rest week had like bounced right off.

Like nothing had happened. I was like, I'm still, I completely suck. And so I don't know why it was, it's like one of the first trips where I completely failed to thrive like that. And I was like, athletically, you know, I was just like, I suck and I don't know why it was, it's like one of the first trips where I completely failed to thrive like that. And I was like, athletically, you know, I was just like, I suck and I don't know why. And I just like, couldn't, I don't know.

I think I needed like a monster recovery. There's always those experiences, you know? I mean, I think that still, like, it seems like you've had good experiences with endurance. Like I'm curious around how that informs your climbing or, you know, as you kind of lean into doing like longer runs and rides, if there's some learnings that you've gotten from that, that have informed or helped you in how you approach like the mountain expeditions.

Well, I think a lot of the long runs and rides, I mean, are basically the exact same feeling as the mountain expeditions. It's like, you're just grinding in a low gear all day, whether that's hiking uphill or like bushwhacking through the dense temper rainforest in Alaska or pedaling the bike. It's like basically the same sensation of just slowly pushing your body for 12 hours a day or something.

I don't know. I mean, though in general, all of those pursuits do not help your rock climbing. Rock climbing is never helped by any kind of long, slow aerobic output like that. It's just too different. But I would imagine it helps keep you connected with just how to like be in a low level of discomfort

for a long period of time without really being at risk. That's the thing I think I get from big cardio efforts, like hiking uphill quickly for several hours or something is it just reminds you to try hard, that it's always uncomfortable. And rock climbing is definitely the same way that when you're trying to do hard climbs, it's uncomfortable, your body hurts, you're just like, ah.

And so it just kind of reminds you that effort is effort. Like you have to try hard if you wanna do hard things. What is a typical training day for you look like at home? I mean, I know you've got this climbing gym at your house. Like there's a great video that kind of show everybody all your shit. I'm not trying to show too much stuff, but so this summer I was on a really nice routine

where for five or six weeks, because I was at home, we put our older daughter in daycare for the first time. I was like, Oh my God, we have time. I had more time to climb. It was incredible. But so I was in a routine. I was, uh, I was climbing outside three days a week, two days of hard sport climbing one day, a sort of adventure climbing or what I was calling like esoterica where I would go climb like random routes that, uh, that people don't do or check out new walls. And it was like, so not quite max effort, but more interesting and fun. And then I was doing one day of training in the gym. And then I was doing one day of outdoor adventure,

like a day of soloing or mountain climbing or like something cool just to like keep the spirits high. And then two days a week of like rest slash work stuff, slash family, you know, whatever. And is there like a group of climbing fanatics in Vegas that you go and do stuff with, or are you doing this kind of by yourself? No, I do like mountain adventures by myself normally.

That's part of the point is just to hike by myself in the mountains, have a nice time. But no, there's a really good community of climbers. And so like for training in my home gym, I have a WhatsApp thread of everybody in town who's better than me, basically like better than me at that kind of board training indoors. And so I like to train with people who are, who are stronger than me. Is there, is there like a big climbing gym in Vegas where everyone hangs

out? No, there isn't really a great commercial facility, which is part of the reason that I built like a nice home gym for myself because, um, and especially now with kids and I just didn't quite have the time to drive into town to go to a mediocre, I mean, you know, with respect to the gyms in Vegas, but they're just not like, they're not that nice of facilities. Right. So I recently revamped my home gym and I did it with some amazing products by NordicTrack.

And I got to tell you, I'm really blown away by the quality of their machines. This is a company that for 50 years have been leaders in at-home fitness equipment. And my setup includes the amazing commercial X32i treadmill. And part of what makes it amazing is that it goes up to an insane 40% incline as well as a 6% decline. So imagine a workout where you put the treadmill at 40% and start marching up. It's unreal. I also have the S27i Studio bike with a 20% incline and a negative 10% decline as well as the smooth, quiet RW900 rower. So cycling between

the three of these products has just been amazing for my fitness. But what really brings these machines to life is the iFit Pro membership. They have a new AI coach that helps you set goals and create personalized workout plans. And it kind of acts like this amazing accountability partner all through texting. With iFit, I also get to follow my world-class trainer pals and past podcast guests, people like Tommy Rives and Knox Robinson. And the machines actually automatically adjust

to match the trainer's intensity. And iFit learns my preferences over time. It even reads my heart rate and adjusts intensity to keep me in the right zone at the right time, completely removing any guesswork from every single workout. NordicTrack together with iFit offer a personalized fitness experience for body, heart, and mind with thousands of workouts including strength, yoga, Pilates, and mindfulness. So stop stalling your progress with NordicTrack and iFit. Just press start and let the trainers and tech do the rest.

Head on over to nordictrack.com slash richroll to experience personalized fitness. It's hot out there, people. Your workouts are ramping up, and we all know what that means. It means more sweat, which means more hydration, which means more elements. You've heard me rave about Elements Electrolyte Powder Travel Packs, but now there's even more to love. Element Sparkling. The same zero-sugar, electrolyte-fueled

hydration you know and that you trust, but now in a bold, fizzy 16-ounce can, now officially also available to everyone. Element Sparkling packs a precise blend of sodium, potassium, and magnesium to keep you

firing on all cylinders. Again, no junk, no caffeine, no BS. It's incredibly refreshing, and it comes in all these great, delicious flavors like citrus salt, watermelon salt, grapefruit salt, that's my favorite, and the sparkling exclusive black cherry lime. When I'm on the go, I throw a packet of Element Drink Mix in my bottle. But when I'm at home, I stock the mini fridge in my home gym with Element Sparkling. It's the perfect combo for staying hydrated. Also, you can now get a free Element sample pack with any purchase, whether it's the classic drink mix or the new sparkling cans. Get your free sample pack with any element purchase at drinklmnt.com slash richroll. The most meaningful part of the documentary

was kind of this line that, or this little monologue that you deliver at the end, which I wanted to share. I mean, not to like, you know, kind of like spoil it for people, but. But let's hear the ending right now. I mean, it's not really like a plot point. Yeah, yeah.

But you say kind of as the documentary is closing, the real power of an expedition is that you condense years of life into a single month or two. But at the same time, I think I'm maturing my spirit and the relationships in my life and the friends that I keep. When I was younger, it's so glamorous to be dark

and moody and conflicted, but now I think I'm kind of getting it. I wanna ask you what that means. Why not do the same hard things, but be happy while you're doing them? Like, why not? So it's sort of this maturing beyond that, that like attachment to the hardness of it all,

like being gloomy, being dark, feeling like you can't attack or accomplish these great things unless you're inhabiting that mindset and realizing like it doesn't have to be that way. Well, that's like the tortured artist thing. It's so glamorous to be the tortured artist, but then you're like, why don't you just smile

and still paint something beautiful? You know, it's like, is that so hard? I mean, part of that actually is an idea that I think is maybe brought up in Free Solo in the film. Cause I got a lot of that from my wife because when we started dating, you know, I was kind of like a tortured artist, like trying to solo things. I got a lot of that from my wife because when we started dating, I was kind of like a tortured artist,

like trying to solo things. I mean, I was never that dark and tortured or anything, but I was definitely more angstful about everything. And she was just kind of like, why? Like, do you need to be angstful about it? Like you can still do all these hard things, but why not just smile, have a good time and like have stable relationships

and like enjoy the company of your friends and like basically be happy while doing all these things. I think when you're young, you think that that angst is part of the, part of like what's fueling you, you know, if you're not angsty and then you're not paying enough attention to the details or you're not like being intense enough

about the whole thing. Yeah, well, I think that's part of it. It's like, you can still train hard, do the work, do everything, but not necessarily be intense about it in that way. And I think that's kind of what I'm settling into. Yeah, you're not like a guy who has some kind of hidden darkness.

Like I don't get that energy from you. There's not like some, yeah, like, I think there's distance, there's like emotional distance. Like this is your Mount Everest, you know what I mean? Like I know you're working on it, but I think maybe that gets mistaken for darkness. Did you ever know Dean Potter? No.

You know who he was? I know who he was. He was like professional primer. So people in the community sort of called him the dark wizard because he was a very broody, very emotional, like twisted artist, like deeply. And actually I think some folks are making a full hbo documentary thing about him because his life is incredible and he totally

he was a visionary climber did all these incredible things but a lot of people you know myself included called him the the dark wizard because you're like oh he's pretty scary you know and uh and i always consider myself the white wizard you know i mean it's kind of kind of lord of the rings references and stuff but but i was like oh i, I'm doing the same things as Dean. I was sort of following in his footsteps to some extent, but with none of the broody darkness, I obviously have a little bit of my own, but just like totally different order of magnitude

than what he was doing. I was kind of like, oh, why not be the white wizard? Do the same things, we'll be happy. It's less about darkness and it's more about what Tommy says when he's interviewing. They're like, what are you concerned about? What are you worried about going into this thing? And he's like, well, I'm a little concerned

about like Alex's lack of empathy. Like he's sort of saying it with a twinkle, you know what I mean? But like, this is the thing that always comes up with you. People ask you about this all the time. There was a turned out on that trip. Really I need it. But then you become this really empathetic person.

Like you're really like there for him. I mean, you know. So this is your growth curve. Well, part of this is having kids and stuff too, I think. Yeah. I mean, I'm like literally taking care of people all the time now. It's like, I think I would expect that I'll become

quite a bit more nurturing and supportive. And you know, at least I hope so. For my daughter's sake, I hope so. But he does say that you're grumpy when you're not climbing. Like, so all the, all the, you know, at least I hope so. For my daughter's sake, I hope so. But he does say that you're grumpy when you're not climbing. Like, so all the, all the, all the, like so much of this adventure was just preface to get to the actual place where you get to do the thing, right?

And you get moody in the lead up. Was not just that, well, so before the trip, I was kind of like, Tommy, well, and this is a whole different thing that we could get into, but so Tommy wanted to do this trip partially because because of the environmental impact like he wanted to try sort of the self-supported like mostly human powered i mean as it turns out because we filmed it's not really human powered and you know there's support there people filming but it's like a roughly human powered adventure you know like and the devil's thumb is in tongas national forest which is the largest temper

rainforest in the world. It's like this giant rainforest in Alaska, but with pine trees and things and grizzly bears and salmon and it's totally amazing landscape, which still has some old growth forest, but has been heavily logged. And so there's a lot of policy things around forest management anyway.

And so Tommy's main sponsor, Patagonia, has put a ton of effort into trying to protect the Tongass and raise awareness about that kind of stuff. And so Tommy's really interested in that. And so he wanted to do this human powered adventure to this really important biodiversity ecosystem and then have a climbing adventure there. And so part of the, you know, I mean, the whole journey that he crafted was this idea of, you know, this like deep immersion in the landscape, like see the American West, tour this important forest, do some climbing along the way. And I was like, I hear that. I get that. I was like, why don't we drive?

I was kind of like, I was like, we're climbers, you know, like, why don't we just drive to these climbing areas along the way and then have more time for climbing? climbing areas along the way and then have more time for climbing. And so, and a lot of this wound up not making the cut in the film just because the film wound up much stronger being sort of a buddy movie with the two of us and focusing on our relationship. But in a different world, they definitely could have made an environmentally focused film because, you know, we biked across the entire American West and we were interacting with these landscapes in a way that you just don't normally experience when you're driving or when, certainly when you're flying past them. And so, I don't know. I mean, I think both of us were trying to like have a nature experience, but my takeaway from the bike ride was just that the whole landscape has all been pillaged by man.

It was crazy. The amount of environmental degradation, just the amount of loss that you see along the way and just how scrappy the towns were. And so you're going through all these little communities and you're like, nobody is thriving. You know, like the landscape isn't thriving. The people here aren't thriving. The communities aren't thriving. Like nothing about this is working. And so I found the whole journey, like kind of depressing in a lot of ways. I mean, besides the buddy aspect where you're like, Oh, we're having this great adventure. This is cool. But when you really looked around, you're like, this is deeply sad.

And then same with the inside passage in Alaska where you're like, oh, all these communities have depleted their fishing stock. The economies have collapsed. And now they're being exploited by cruise ships, basically. And everything about it, you're like, nobody is doing well as a result of this. Anyway, this is a whole tangent to go down.

That's huge. And none of that is in the documentary. Like there's absolutely nothing. Like that's a whole completely different movie. I know because it's just hard to make a great film. And then you're like the downer. I know and I totally respect the filmmakers for, they have all this incredible footage and they're like,

well, here we made a great film. And I think the film they made is great, but you definitely could have made a full on environmental documentary about like, let's talk about deforestation or, you know, the, yeah. I mean, just all of it. I was like, this is crazy. I think that, that mountaineers, Alpine, you know, climbers,

adventurers, people who go on these amazing expeditions are important voices in the discussion around the environment, because you are the people who are putting yourself in these remote parts of the planet where changes in climate are most evident, right? Like you're, it's like you, I saw the route of the bike ride. Like you're, it's not like you're on the interstate.

Like you're going through really remote places that you would assume or think these are still on touch. These are pristine. So that was the thing that was so sobering about this trip was that, and it actually made me realize, so I think that I have a pretty good finger on the pulse of the environment because I spent so much time outside,

but this bike journey actually made me realize that all the time that I spent outside is mostly in parks or protected places or on mountains in the most remote places. And the thing is that realistically humans just don't exploit those types of mountain ranges because they're too steep, they're too hard to work in. So like nobody is cutting trees or mining or whatever

because you're on the side of a mountain. It's just like, that's just not where somebody's gonna set up a mine if they can help it. And on this bike ride, I realized that literally everything else has been exploited by man. Like we rode across central BC. Like I kind of thought that the middle of British Columbia would just be untouched forest because it's like so far North and there's nobody up there and there's very few population centers.

It turns out it's all been logged, like everything. And so you're seeing second growth forest. And the thing is, if you're not paying attention and you're just biking, you're like, oh, there are lots of trees. And then you're like, wait, none of this is old growth. Like these have all been cut down and then replanted and whatever. It's all human impacted. And you're just biking. You're like, oh, there are lots of trees. And then you're like, wait, none of this is old growth. Like these have all been cut down and then replanted and whatever. It's all human impacted. And, you know, you can see like sawmills everywhere. And I was just like, this is crazy. And so it made me realize that I think I've had a skewed perspective because I spent so

much time in places like Yosemite where you're like, nature is doing just fine. It's incredible. And then you're like, no, it's doing fine within the confines of this national park. And then as soon as you cross the border of the park, everything's been cut down. It's incredible. And then you're like, no, it's doing fine within the confines of this national park. And then as soon as you cross the border of the park, everything's been cut down. It was crazy. Like we rode through Yellowstone on the way, it just happened to be on the way, which is kind of cool. And so Yellowstone, we saw tons of animals, you know, it's like, it's incredible. It's Yellowstone. And then you get into the rest of, of Wyoming, Montana, and everything has been, you know, it's all like fields and everything's been cut.

And you're just like, whoa, if you're not within a protected area, it's being exploited. It was crazy. So how does that inform like your stewardship of the Honnold Foundation? Like did that change or kind of increase the intensity with which you're pursuing your, your environmental work? I mean, maybe, maybe a little, I mean, realistically, I haven't changed actions that

much, but it does. I mean, so I read a lot of environmental nonfiction and, you know, everything you read about is like how dire, uh, you know, climate change is, how much of an impact humans are having on the environment, all those kinds of things. And I think that previously I'd be like, you know, but it's not that bad. Like there are all these beautiful places on earth and they're all doing just fine. You know, the remote mountains in Alaska are doing just fine. And you're like, yeah, well, the mountains in Alaska are doing fine because it's, it's physically too hard for humans to get there to exploit them. But anything that's easy to get to is being exploited. It was like, it just made me realize that I've been spending all my time. Like basically the places that I go climbing

are the, will be the last places on earth that get exploited by man. But like literally everything else is being destroyed. But the further you go North or South, the more evident like glacier recession. Yeah, glacier recession. You're dealing with avalanches

and all kinds of stuff. Totally. And actually on the Devil's Thumb, there was shocking difference between the photos from even 10 years ago. Wow. Because there's not that many people go there,

not that many people climb. And so, we were pulling up trip reports from people who went in 2012 and some friends of ours had gone in like 2013 or something. And there was that dude, right? You went and stayed with that guy who like knows the mountain really well. Yeah, Dieter.

Yeah. You're close, yeah. And so he had all these mountains or all these photos of the mountain since, you know, like the 70s or something when people first went. And it's completely different now. I mean, the shape of the mountain is different. The glaciers have receded so much

that now there are all these other rock ridges all over. Also, and this is mentioned a bit in the film, but the Northwest face of the Devil's Thumb is this 5,000 foot rock wall that's considered one of the last great problems of North American alpinism and all the historic photos that you see from the glacier below it. You look up this 5,000 foot wall that's like covered in hanging glaciers and snow fields. And it like, it looks like death, you know, there's like ice everywhere. So Tommy and I looked down that wall, uh, from what we were climbing,

you could like look down, down that face and it's bone dry. I mean, we were there late season, so a lot of things would have melted anyway, but there are no more hanging snow fields or no glaciers. Like literally it's just a big face of rubble. It's just like a rock face. We're like, like now it doesn't even look like a last great challenge of alpinism. And actually, I mean, I don't know if any real cutting edge alpinist listened to this podcast, but, uh, but I was, I was like, if I was a younger man that was like hungrier to make a name for myself, I would definitely go and solo a new route up that face because I was like, this looks downright easy now.

Right, because none of those threats are there anymore. Yeah, now it's a threat of rock fall. And like, I mean, it still would be a sort of dangerous face, but it's totally different than it used to be. And I was like, this looks like easy. I was like, I think I could just do this like casually. Someone's going to hear this in like a light bulb moment. Or at least it would be really easy to do the first 4,000 feet. And then there's kind of this headwall. And if that seemed too extreme, then you would traverse off the sides and just escape or

something. But I was kind of like, if I was in a base camp down below that face for 10 days with good weather, I would for sure do some things on it, you know? And I was like, man, it's totally different than it used to be. Well, that, that, that range, that mountain is known, that region is known for its terrible weather, but you got this amazing day. It looked downright like balmy out. Yeah. It was like totally, it was like, I'm wondering if that was like highly unusual also. I don't think it's worth generalizing that kind of stuff. Cause you know, you always get, I'm sure a couple of days a year,

you always have great weather, but we had like a week of great weather, which is very unusual, but it was late season. It is when it should be the driest. And I don't know, you know, either we just got really lucky or it is getting drier up there, but who knows. And you say in the doc that the decision

of which route you were gonna take was sort of a game day thing. You were gonna kind of improvise and decide, like almost spur of the moment, which route you were gonna take. So why is it that you decided not to take on that Northwest face and instead traverse those ridges? So there was literally like five different peaks

on the way. I mean, obviously visually, like that was extraordinary. It was like, these are the most jagged, pointed, you know, narrow peaks that I've ever seen. It's like bananas. They were insane. I mean, even for me and Tommy, a couple of the summits I think

were the smallest summits we've ever stood on. I mean, some of them were probably less than half the size of the table that we're sitting at. So, you know, and I don't know if this footage made in the film, but there's some things where I'm trying to take a, you know, and I don't know if this footage made in the film, but there's some things where I'm trying to take a picture of Tommy, but I can't really pull the camera far enough away

to fit him in the frame because the summit is so small that we're so close together that you just can't fit him in the frame. And I was like, this is crazy. Like this is a really small summit. And then, you know, it's like a thousand foot drop off either side. Like this is a jagged little needle.

It's pretty, pretty amazing. And you keep forgetting, I said this earlier, but it's sort of like, oh, there's you two. And then was it Tyler who was the dry, who accompanied you? Taylor. Sweet Taylor. Yeah, Taylor.

And then, but how many filmmakers were with you? Because like I said, the footage was incredible and I kept forgetting like a lot of it's drone, but there's some real closeups on your hands and your feet and your face. There was some head mounted cameras I could tell, but also somebody is like right next to you on that rock, getting footage of you.

Yeah, so it was a really complicated operation, but, and this is where the limits of human powered adventure are really seen because it was helicopter assisted. The camp had been stopped, like basically all the filmmakers came in by helicopter and got positioned on the mountains in a couple of places by helicopter. And so you're like, that's all obviously very high environmental impact. But, um, yeah, there were probably a half dozen people on the team. I mean, the team was a little

bit bigger because it includes like a medic and, and, uh, you know, a couple of mountain guides to make sure that nobody, uh, falls off the the mountain but there were two or three camera guys i mean there were a few times when i think there were three drones flying around us being operated by different people but there were often two drones flying around us which was funny because for me and tommy it just you don't really feel like you're alone in the mountains that way it's like yeah you're trying to yell at each other like you're off the line you can't hear because they're like two drones going behind you it's like being out on the sidewalk with like somebody mowing their lawn next to you because the drones are pretty loud.

You're just like, oh, it really takes away from the beauty. I mean, you're out there all day, so you still have plenty of beautiful experiences, but it was a lot of drone work. Yeah, it's- They were flying drones from like so far away. It was crazy. They must've had amazing long lenses on them though.

Because I mean, there was- No, the drones were like coming in super close, but they were flying them like a couple of miles. Oh, wow. Flying them from other mountains. And then they would sort of circle around the spires for the 20 or 30 minutes of battery life and then flying back to a couple miles away.

And they got pretty close to you. Yeah, really close. These must've been like bigger. No, no. These are not like little DJI's. These are straight- Oh, really? Yeah, DJI, straight up like Mavic, whatever, the. These are not like little DJI's. These are straight. Oh really? Yeah, DJI, straight up like Mavic, whatever,

the Inspire I think is the big one. But no, Renan really pushes the limits of what you can do with drones. Yeah, it was pretty cool. Renan Oster who directed and filmed a lot of this, he's like kind of next level with all the drones, but he would send them up and send them on like a hyperlapse or something like his drone would just like fly to the sunset and back

while shooting like a beautiful night thing. And then he would be holding an actual camera interviewing one of us. And then we'd like hear beeping, hear beeping, and the drone would basically auto land when the battery died. So he's literally doing drone work and multiple cameras. Yeah, he would completely,

yeah, he would forget that the drone is even gone. The drone's like off getting footage and he'd be like making a movie with his camera. And then the drone would come back and you know, you're looking at him, he would forget that the drone is even gone. The drone's like off getting footage and he'd be like making a movie with his camera. And then the drone would come back and you're looking at him, he's holding the camera and you see a drone landing behind him. And you're like, Renan, do you need to do something? Like, should you catch that?

Or like, help that thing land? And he's like, oh yeah, the drone, and he'll like bring it in. You're like, geez, he had like, I think they had like 20 drones with him. Wow. Like for crashing and for battery, like just whatever. And you're an executive producer on this project, yeah?

I mean, whatever that means. Yeah, in name or whatever. But I guess why I raised that is, you've done a number of these projects, right? Like you're kind of like a filmmaker, like you're part of this melding of adventure and filmmaking, but you're kind of part of this corner of the entertainment industry, like making these films.

Like you're like a media figure as much as you are like an adventure athlete or explorer. So I've never aspired to be any of that, but I think you're probably- But this is how you spend most of your time. Well, not most, but like one big expedition a year or something like that. But it is probably true that at this point,

I bet I could finagle a budget, put together the team, make a film like this. Actually, I probably could executive produce something like this. And not that I'm doing a ton of work on these projects necessarily, but there is a lot of wrangling, getting the right parts together,

making sure it's the right team and everybody knows what to do. Do you think there's ever gonna be another documentary in this vein that makes it to the Oscars? I doubt it, but you never know, honestly, because climbing is like so much more of a thing. It could just be some totally different kind of documentary.

Maybe, I don't know. I mean, sports documentaries are always so compelling. Sure, but I think it's the story, right? Like we've seen all these epic documentaries of climbing and you see these death defying things, but I think it's the story that makes the difference. But there are a lot of good stories in climbing though. I mean, I wouldn't be shocked if someday something like that,

or if like a swimming documentary won an Oscar, I'd be like, wouldn't be shocked like it could happen. Yeah, what's going on with the Honnold Foundation? What are the projects that you're excited about and working on right now? Well, we've got projects all over the world that we're just, I don't know. I mean, it's basically just steadily ramping

into a full-on organization. I mean, the last couple of years, we've given over 2 million a year in grants. And so projects all over the world. And in a good way, it's sort of exceeded my capacity to know what any of the projects are at any given time you know, in a good way, it's sort of exceeded my capacity to know what any of the projects are at any given time. You know, obviously as a board member, I'm still voting on the slate of new projects each year, but realistically the team that's

things so well, they're just like, if the team thinks it's a good idea, it's a good idea. Yeah. So you have sort of an arm's length relationship. Like now that it's matured to a certain point, you don't have to be involved in the day-to-day decision-making. Yeah. Well, and the decision-making is better because have to be involved in the day-to-day decision making. Yeah, well, and the decision making is better because I'm not involved in the day-to-day. You know, it's like, it's much, much better. But no, I'm still obviously fundraising with a bunch and working with the foundation, you know, a fair amount.

Like, so each year we issue an open call for grant applications. So we get hundreds of applications from all over the world from communities in different places, maybe like 20%-ish domestic domestic projects and the rest global and we get hundreds of applications uh and we only have the money to fund you know a handful of the best ones and so we get to be pretty selective about what are the best projects and so it's all uh you know community organizations using solar to to benefit their community in whatever ways and so that can be um you know community organizations using solar to to benefit their community in whatever ways

and so that can be um you know i mean it's different case by case sometimes that involves job training sometimes that involves uh you know like food or processing foods or or even just energy access like lights you know whatever or just saving money or transportation like you know basically using solar energy for whatever helps their community the most. And it's just, I don't know, it's just, it's so great. There's so many like second and third order benefits for a lot of these communities that you're just like, and then that often leads to environmental benefits. You know, like if a community doesn't have to cut a road out

because they now can have solar powered boats, it's like by not cutting a road, you can avoid deforestation in different ways. Cause that's sort of serves as a jump off point for people to mine illegally and to harvest wood illegally. And I don't know, there's a lot of things where you're like, oh, this is the way the world should be.

And so I think basically the Honolulu Foundation right now is supporting a lot more projects where I'm like, wow, that's cool. You know, it's like, you wanna support projects where you're like, why? Why hasn't somebody done that before? That's such a good idea. Like, that's great. That's, it's like you wanna support projects where you're like, why? Why hasn't somebody done that before? That's such a good idea. Like, that's great.

That's just like the way the world should be. So what are some of those specifically for people that don't know kind of the work that you do in solar? Yeah, so like I was just mentioning like solar powered boats in the Amazon, that's like one of the more sort of fringe projects that we supported or more in a niche.

But in rural communities in Ecuadorian rivers, like the further you go up river, the more expensive fuel is, the harder it is to transport things by boat. So solar powered boats basically save them a ton of money, prevent them from having to cut roads out to certain communities. And as a result, you know, basically it helps the community,

helps them save a ton of money and helps the environment. And so projects like that, where you're just kind of like, oh, that's an interesting idea that has much more of a positive impact than you would expect from something that seems sort of simple. But then at the other end of the spectrum, we supported this project, just like a grid-tied solar project

on a school for indigenous girls in Guatemala. And you're sort of like, it's really simple, just like putting solar panels on your roof here at home, just saves you money on your utility bill. But in this case, it's a school for indigenous girls saving money on their utility bill. And you're like, that's win-win. It's like the school has that much more

to put into their own programming. And you're like, it's exactly the people that you wanna see getting good education in the right way. And it's helping to decarbonize the grid. It's like good for the environment, good for people, easy, simple win. What are the barriers to getting solar like more universal with everybody?

Fricking money' money. Yeah. I mean, that's it. Like all this stuff is just funding. And that's kind of the thing is that we've been given 2 million a year in grants and we have a $65 million pipeline of projects that we haven't been able to fund yet

because we just don't have the money. But that's like people applying for them. And of those probably half are actually really great projects. But still that's like 30 million in projects that are small scale community things around the world where you can have a real tangible impact on some community and all they need is the money.

Yeah, when you provide that to these communities that are like in the middle of nowhere, it's not just that they get electricity, there are all these like kind of downstream benefits as a result, like it really becomes like invigorating to, it brings this whole community back to life. It brings people together. So we've seen exactly that with a couple of projects

in the Brazilian Amazon, where by providing power to a community, they suddenly sort of stop the outflow of young people. Like basically people leaving a village because they don't have access to power, they don't have access to the internet. They're basically seeking opportunity in different towns. And as soon as you bring power to some of those people, like basically people leaving a village because they don't have access to power, they don't have access to the internet. They're basically seeking opportunity in different towns. And as soon as you bring power to some of those villages,

they find that they can have the same opportunities at home because people don't necessarily want to leave the village that they grew up in. But if they feel like there's no opportunity there, then they will. But as soon as you provide power to some of those communities people are like, you know, I can live in the places that I historically have.

And yeah, it has a big deal on maintaining local communities. Yeah, it does make you think like, you know, I can live in the places that I historically have. And yeah, it has a big deal on maintaining local communities. Yeah. It does make you think like, these are just good ideas. Like why isn't this like- I know. And in the grand scheme of things- And the solutions are easy and they're available and the technology exists and it's not expensive. Exactly.

They're so relatively cheap. That's the thing that's so crazy to me is a lot of these projects, like the grants that we're giving range from 50 to 250K generally, somewhere in there,, you know, it was kind of a lot on a personal level, but kind of not that much. Cause 50 K, if it transforms a village, you're like, dude, like, you know, I mean, how many people do we know that have 50 K or laying around that? I mean, you just think there's so many philanthropists like deploying money to solve the climate crisis. And you're sort of like, well, there are all these projects out there like waiting to be done and it doesn't cost that much.

And it has this tremendous impact on human lives. It's like, we should definitely start with this type of stuff. Yeah, it reminds me of Scott Harrison at Charity Water. Have you ever met him? Haven't met him. Oh man, I mean, you would love this guy. Like it's the same thing.

Like he's going into these communities that don't have clean drinking water and building wells, and it's not that expensive, and it completely transforms the community. And the water crisis is so massive, he can spend the rest of his life doing this, and he's made a huge dent, but the work will never be done, right?

And so it's about being okay with the fact that you'll never completely solve this problem, but you keep showing up for it. Well, that's kind of true for all human problems, though, fact that you'll never completely solve this problem, but you keep showing up for it. Well, that's kind of true for all human problems though, that you're never gonna solve them all. But the point is the effort. I mean, that's the same with athletic training and all that kind of stuff.

It's like, you're never gonna be the best. You're never gonna like win-win. You might have moments of greatness. You might be able to do some things that you're proud of, but ultimately there is no winning. It's like, it's the effort that's meaningful. It's like, it's the showing up and grinding every day. And I think, yeah, with nonprofit stuff,

it's all about trying. How has your relationship with greatness changed or evolved, being a dad, having two kids, being involved in the nonprofit, like having a full life that's so much more than just about whatever wall you're thinking about climbing? Oh, I don't know. I don't even know if, I don't know, I haven't thought about it that much, but I don't know. I think when I was younger, like in your twenties, you're just like, if I achieve these things, then I'll be the man. And then you do some of those things and you're

like, I'm exactly the same man. You know, you're sort of like, like, I don't know what I thought the man would be, but it feels strangely similar to the way I was, you know, yesterday when I woke up or the day before or whatever, you know, whatever. And I think even more so with family, you're just kind of like, we're literally all just struggling along doing our best. Like, you know, it's like when your baby wakes up in the middle of the night, four times crying and you're just like totally haggard, just dealing. You're like, you know, like this is a pretty universal human experience. Like everybody just has to deal and like provide for their families and stuff. And I don't know, I think it really deemphasizes all the achievement.

Right, right, right. You're just like, you know, it's like, I love climbing. I love challenging myself as a climber and doing things that I'm proud of. But ultimately it's like, we're all just doing our best and just trying to get by. Because of all the crazy hard stuff that you've done, I would imagine that you're not a guy

who like sweats the small stuff. And when you're a parent, you've got babies and it's stressful and you're under slept and all of that. It's easy to kind of get caught up in a bunch of nonsense that gets you spun out. But I would imagine like you don't get spun out as easily as the average human. No, I definitely, that's interesting to hear you say that

because I mean, obviously we do struggle with the lack of sleep and with babies and just like the time, but I definitely don't get spun out about it. I don't really like stress the baby stuff, but I just get grounded dust because I'm so fricking tired. You know, it's like, so I think even if you're not stressing it, it's still really hard.

But I think what's gonna serve you well as a parent is that like you, like I think you have a firm grip or understanding on like what's important and what's not. As a parent with a small kid, it's like you have aspirations and you can easily like lose your mind over stuff that actually doesn't matter. Doesn't matter at all. Yeah.

You know, actually, so I had a thought, I was hiking with my daughter a couple of days ago. I was pretty cute. I like hike her uphill in the backpack and then she kind of staggers downhill as much as she wants then I carry her home and it's totally lovely. We're up on the mountains It was it was nice. But um, but I had this thought i'm curious. I'm curious your take on this And and I thought about this because as we were hiking down, uh, you know, she's two and a half So she doesn't really get the concept just like hiking down a mountain

So she was really just kind of wandering rock to rock and like pretending to climb rocks and playing on things and then she got Bored of the rocks then she was going animal hole to animal hole and putting her hands into the holes, which I was like, well, that seems a little sketchy, but I was kind of trying to discourage her. But at the same time, I'm like, oh, that's cool that you're curious. And I'm excited that you're interested in nature and whatever. Anyway. So she's like wandering down this trail. And there were times when I would get far enough ahead of her or behind her that I couldn't see her for a little bit. And I'm like, it's fine. It's a safe trail. There are people around. It's fine. But I feel incredibly comfortable in that kind of environment. And, you know, obviously I project that on my daughter, like you do whatever you want.

And I was like, I think part of parenting is to be comfortable in enough places that you don't project your own fears onto your children. Because I was, as I was on this trail, I was like, man, this is like my home and it feels easy, easy. But I was like, if we were at a barn, like saddling a horse, you know, like I would feel pretty uncomfortable with that because I don't know anything about horses. And, you know, I'm like, that's a big animal. It's kind of intimidating, but I wouldn't want to project that kind of intimidation on my daughter because, you know, obviously she should have a healthy respect for things that could kill her. But at the same time, I don't want to grow up being afraid of things. Do you see what I'm getting at? It's like, I feel like part of being a parent

is basically being comfortable enough with the world around you that you don't make your child afraid of that world. Comfortable enough with the world around you, but also the world inside of you. Because I think, first of all, that's amazing insight. That already puts you ahead of like 99.9% of all parents. And it's something that, you know,

I'm continually reminding myself of and trying to master with, you know, varying degrees of success. But I think the insight is we all have lived a life of certain experiences and nobody emerges from childhood without some kind of wounding or whatever. And you have all this bullshit in your mind, right? And it's like, forget about the outdoors.

It's like whatever your past is, like that's what ends up getting projected onto your child because you have your own fears or whatever, however irrational they are. And unconsciously we're doing that all the time, right? And so the young mind is kind of processing that and creating a map of the world based upon those signals, which most of the time aren't even verbal.

It's just like your energy, right? So if you're a generally fearful person because you've been hurt in the past or you've had bad experiences, you're naturally gonna project that onto your child because you want your child to be safe and you don't want them to be afraid in the way that you are but actually that behavior is that cross purposes

with that goal, right? Totally. Whereas if you could just comport yourself and refrain from projecting your own bullshit onto your kid, the kid's gonna be just fine. And I think for you to be somebody who is so comfortable in nature to take your child out and provide them this gift, which is like, it should be about adventure and not being scared.

It's about being responsible and you teach and like, here's what you need to be careful of. Like don't put your whole arm down the little hole. Yeah, but like, don't be like, you know, just irrationally afraid of things in the world, I think is instilling in that young person, like a sense of capacity and agency and possibility. I think that's one of the main things

that I want out of parenting is just to make sure that my daughters aren't afraid of things or at least not afraid of things unnecessarily. Cause obviously you should be, have a healthy fear of certain things, but I just don't want them to have like weird anxiety and neuroses and things. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

It's like, just be afraid of the things that are appropriate. Yeah. Like if you're gonna die, be afraid. Otherwise like keep it chill. But here's the thing, we also all kind of parent in opposition to the way we were parented in terms of like needs

we feel like weren't met, right? And we tend to kind of overcompensate in the other direction. And we also have all these grand plans and designs, like I'm gonna raise my kid this way and this is what's gonna happen and then this is gonna happen and then this is gonna happen.

But it doesn't work out that way. I don't have any of that. They're gonna be who they're gonna be. That's exactly, yeah. But it doesn't work out that way. They're gonna be who they're gonna be. That's exactly, yeah. And like if the universe has a say, maybe they're gonna hate mountaineering and they're gonna want nothing to do with the outdoors and they're gonna wanna play video games all day

and they're gonna tell you to fuck off. Yeah, but I kind of love video games too. In a different universe I could have been a gamer. You have like an issue with will be the thing that they'll like gravitate towards. Yeah, I mean, I'm only two and a half years into the parenting journey, but already I'm like, I don't think I've done any actual parenting.

It's like our daughter is just blossoming into whoever she's gonna be, which is like a total psycho. She's like so energetic. She goes hard, but I'm kind of like, you know, she's just her. Yeah. And it's just up to us to keep her safe. And yeah, we'll see. Yeah, with that, it's just up to us to keep her safe and and uh yeah we'll see yeah with that

um it's about like making sure you have the guardrails up so that they're safe but widening the guardrails enough so that yes develop because that's like that's like amazing to have that kind of energy and you know that's the thing is like all the things that make her a really really hard toddler are things that would make her great right Right, later in life this will serve her. And so you don't wanna crush that at all. Yeah, exactly. But you just have to create an environment where the walls are kind of padded a little bit.

Yeah, she's literally bouncing off the walls nonstop. So you just need guardrails to keep her inside the- This is June? Yeah, this is June. And she goes into the climbing gym and she has her own wall, right? Yeah, she's got a little warm up wall. So does she enjoy that?

She doesn't really care. She like walks over, she'll climb stuff, she'll drop off. She's just as interested, she loves brushing the holds, you know, like climbers use like brushes, like looks like a toothbrush to brush the chalk up holds. So she loves like brushing holds and you know, chalking your hands and doing all the things. But no, she doesn't like climb yet.

Yeah. But I mean, she's two and a half. I mean, she walks, I mean, she runs around, does stuff but you know, she's still like learning the world. Right. Today's episode is sponsored by Whoop. At this point, we're halfway through Sober October. I hope all of you out there

who are participating are feeling the benefits of taking this break from alcohol. And I can tell you, as somebody who's been wearing Whoop for, I don't know, five or six years at this point, I promise you it is eye-opening to see just how much sobriety is impacting your health on a day-to-day basis. WHOOP tracks things other wearables can't, things like your heart rate, your sleep quality, your daily recovery, your HRV, your workouts, and even your breathing at night. Now, I've been sober for many years. I've seen firsthand how prioritizing health can change your life. And now Whoop is actually backing all of this up with solid evidence-based scientific data. And here's what they found.

Drinking knocks your overall recovery down by about 12%. It bumps up your resting heart rate by 7%. It messes with your sleep quality. We all know this. And get this, every single drink drops your recovery by another 4%. If you're doing Sober October, you're probably noticing these improvements already. And if you haven't started yet,

come on, it's not too late. You can join in and enjoy these benefits for yourself. Right now, Whoop is offering all of my listeners a free month to try it out. Just go to join.whoop.com slash roll to get started. That's join.whoop.com slash roll. Let's finish Sober October strong. Meditation has been a recurring theme on this podcast, dating back to its beginnings.

And in conversation, always leads people to asking me about the best way to begin. There are no shortage of modalities, of resources, and apps available. I have experience with many of them. But my mainstay, I have to say, the one that I have found most useful is waking up. It's this unique treasure trove of wisdom that has become so important to my daily routine that the app finds itself right in the dock of my phone for immediate fingertip access. Beyond its robust catalog of daily meditations, it's also this extraordinary library of mindfulness resources that go well beyond

the strictures of meditation with courses on stoicism, cognitive behavioral therapy, time management, procrastination, as well as thoughtful conversations with leading scholars on everything from psychedelics to happiness. It really is one of the most worthy investments you can make in yourself. And listeners of the show can get 30 days to try Waking Up for free. Plus, you'll save $30 on the in-app price. If price is a concern, Waking Up offers the app for free, astonishingly for anyone who can't afford it. You can find the links on their website to get a full scholarship right now.

Just go to wakingup.com slash richroll to start your free month today. That's wakingup.com slash richroll. I took questions from the audience and I wrote them down on these cards and I thought we could just do a little bit of a grab bag and see what comes up. And if you don't wanna answer it, we'll move on to the next one. Or if we already talked about it, we can move on as well. Do I just grab them out of here?

Yeah, maybe we just dump them out and mix them up. You wanna pick one of these? Oh yeah, okay, so we just pull out a... I don't know. Let's see what we got here. This one says, when are you going to run a hundred miler? That's an easy one, never. Next.

Yeah, no, and very intentionally, because I think that to run the mileage required to not injure myself running a hundred miler would be prohibitive for rock climbing. Right. Like I can run a 50K kind of off the couch-ish, you know, with a little bit of running and having a good time,

and I can enjoy myself and not be injured. And I'm kind of like running 50K is good enough. You know, it's like that, that is totally fine. So we're not gonna see you toeing the line at Leadville anytime soon. No, I can imagine doing a 50 miler because I've done some 50 mile hikes or like 47 mile hikes and things like that,

like day adventures. And actually I think this weekend I might try to do like a 45 mile day adventure hike thing. Would you do it in a race context though, or you just want to go out and do it on your own? This one I'm just going to do on my own. It involves going from like from Red Rock to the summit of the mountain.

You know, it's just like an elemental challenge where you're like from the low to the high and it'll be cool. And then sadly from the high point, it's eight miles back to get to the trailhead. So then you're like, oh, it kind of makes it a longer journey. Have you seen this enthusiasm around rucking that sort of has suddenly appeared? Yeah. You must think like, well, it kind of makes it a lot. Have you seen this enthusiasm around rucking that sort of has suddenly appeared?

You must think like, well, I'm built for that. I could do it. I could go like all day with that. Well, yeah, I can. But I'm also like, that's so, I just thought it was stupid. Like if you don't have to carry weight, don't carry weight. You know, I don't know. I love, I mean, because as somebody who does enough stuff

where you have to carry a heavy backpack, I'm kind of like, if I don't have to carry a heavy backpack, I'm kind of like, if I don't have to carry the heavy backpack, I'm just not carrying extra weight. Like, it's crazy to me. I saw this guy on the trail, actually. I was hiking with June a couple of days ago and this guy went by with this full-on weight vest.

I had to be like 25 pound weight vest walking his dog. And I was just like, you're literally just carrying little balls of lead up the mountain and back. That's psycho. Do you know this guy, Michael Easter? He lives in Vegas. He's the big ruck guy. I just got his contact info. Um, I met a mutual friend of his who was like, you guys should connect cause you're both in Vegas. And I, I was on his, um, his, uh, his mailing list for a bit. I was like reading his, his, whatever,

you know, his content. I think I read his book maybe. Um, and yeah, I think I'm totally into most of what he writes, but I'm like rucking. I don't really get it maybe. And yeah, I think I'm totally into most of what he writes, but I'm like rucking, I don't really get it. But if somebody doesn't exercise in other ways, it's probably better to do that than nothing. But I'm kind of like, why not take off the pack? It's more of a older guy longevity thing, right? When- Why not run

or like run gently or I don't know. Or if nothing else, like just hike with a day bag with a lot of water, drink your water and then trot down with no weight. You know, it's like, that's a, or dump your water. And I'm like, why go downhill with weight on if you don't have to? All right, next question.

Yeah, okay, sorry. That was good. Yeah, a hundred mile or not for me. We'll cut that up into an amazing reel. It'll be very controversial. Yeah, perfect. Favorite band or song? Tool, I'll just throw that out there.

I know I like old rock and stuff, but if I had to go favorite Tool song, I'll go 46 and 2. What about Jared Leto, 30 Seconds to Mars? He's your guy. Well, yeah, he's a friend and I like the music, but not as much, you know, but I have listened to that music, you know, my whole life also.

Good climber? Yeah, I mean, surprisingly good. Well, not that he, you know, my whole life also. Good climber? Yeah, I mean, surprisingly good. Well, not that he works too much and, but we climb at least a couple of times a year maybe. Cool. Yeah, he also lives in Vegas, so. Oh, I didn't know that. Yeah, he moved out of LA.

Didn't he live like in some airplane hangar up in Laurel Canyon? No, no, he lived in an Air Force base. Yeah. It's like, it's crazy. But it was also his office for his company, like his business and stuff, like studio space and whatever, you know, it's like a whole compound.

But no, now he lives like in a house in Vegas. But I think it's because he travels literally nonstop to work. So he was kind of like wide pay California income tax if you're literally never there anyway. So you just- And then he gets to go climbing with you. Yeah, yeah, exactly.

Okay, next question. It's true that you still use the same water bottle you've had for like forever. Yeah, yeah, I mean, basically. I generally, I mean, my general path is that I use a water bottle until it gets too scuzzy and then it turns into a pee bottle. And then when that gets too scuzzy,

it eventually gets recycled. But it's like a six month life cycle. So it has life stages. Yeah. It goes from water into a pee bottle. And then when that gets too scuzzy, it eventually gets recycled. But it's like a six month life cycle. It has life stages. Yeah. It goes from water bottle to pee bottle. To eventually turns into my synthetic jacket. You recycle it and it gets recycled. So how many years have you had your current water bottle?

Oh, well, I don't know. I'd say it lasts like six months if you're lucky. Because your bottles just get smushed or they get broken. But I'm using like a two liter, like apple juice bottle, you know, just like a random trash bottle. What is the least sustainable thing that you do or least sustainable habit in your life

aside from air travel? Yeah, I was like- Cause that's the easy answer. Well, that's air travel is like the thing. I mean, the amount of, the amount that I fly dwarfs everything else that I do in my life. So- What would be second? I mean, the amount of, the amount that I fly dwarfs everything else that I do in my life. So, um, second, um, I mean, I'm maybe diet stuff, maybe, I don't know. I mean, I'm mostly vegetarian, but then, you know, occasionally I'll just eat whatever is available

and, um, eat meat from time to time. I mean, um, I had pizza the other day, you know, and I was like, Oh, it's really tasty. But, um, maybe I don't know, what else? I mean, I drive an electric car. I have solar in the house. I basically don't buy things ever because sponsors just send me the stuff I'm supposed to use and I use it forever. I don't know what other obvious. Do you ever wear a shirt

that doesn't say the North Face on it? No, no. Basically, unless somebody wants to pay me more to wear other free clothes, then I'm like, no, why would I? Kind of like, it's crazy. All right, next question. Plus it's so soft and comfortable.

Next question. What is your most underrated overlooked superpower? Underrated or overlooked superpower? I don't know, do I have any superpowers? I think you have a few. Underrated. I think you have a few. Well, there's the not underrated superpower, which is just your ability to climb

and your relationship with fear and all of that. I would say your skill as a comedian is underrated, as I mentioned earlier. I don't think that's skills, I think it was just, but no, I think a totally unknown skill, I really like crosswording and I'm quite, no, I'm not quite good in the grand scheme of things,

but I can consistently do the New York Times crossword puzzle. Little known quite, no, I'm not quite good in the grand scheme of things, but I can consistently do the New York Times crossword puzzle. Little known fact. I would not have known that. I do it every day when it loads. Well, that's good. That is an overlooked superpower. Doesn't it get harder during the week?

Like Monday's the easiest and then it progressively gets harder? Basically. And you can do it all the way through. I can do them all, yeah. Wow. Not always, you know, and occasionally some are tricky.

And actually one of my big compromises now as a parent is that if I finish the puzzle and when you're doing on the app, if you finish it, but you have an error somewhere, you know, it's like, you're not done. And then you can spend 45 minutes like troubleshooting, trying to like switch out vowels here or there, like try to fix the spelling on something, trying to find it. Or now as a dad, I just hit auto check. and then I'm like, oh, there's my error. And then I fix it and I move on. And it like, it breaks your streak or whatever. And it doesn't count as like sending.

I'm like, you know what? I need to go to bed. So that's fine. So I've gotten a little looser in my crossword-ing. The competitive Alex is still alive. Yeah, it's all right. All right, next question. I like this like popcorn style.

What non-climbing athlete impresses you the most? I don't know. I just listened to a couple of podcast things sort of comparing Kobe and Michael Jordan. And I don't know. I have a lot of respect for athletes like longevity and athletics. You know, something like LeBron, who's had like this incredible career, managed to avoid massive scandals, played at a high level forever. I just watched some of his games at the Olympics, not in person, but, uh, but I was randomly just by chance. I was, I was in Paris for the Olympics for climbing, but, um, but I was at the team USA house, uh, the day that they played Serbia, where they're basically losing the whole game until the last five minutes. And then basically

just turned it on and won handily. And I was just like, what a boss. You know, like literally every time LeBron dunked, the whole room had started chanting, USA. It was like, everyone's drunk. Everyone's like, it was like a psycho atmosphere at the Team USA house. Yeah, yeah. But so I don't know, athletes like that,

people who can consistently perform at a high level for a long career. Do you watch sports on TV? No, but I'll watch highlights and stuff and you know. Is there one sport in particular that you favor? I mean, I think. Is it basketball? No, I like basketball. I think I have a soft spot for American football,

like for the NFL, which is, I feel bad about almost because I'm like, oh, football's kind of terrible in a lot of ways, but I grew up, like my whole family loved football growing up. And so I just like, oh, football's kind of terrible in a lot of ways, but I grew up, like my whole family loved football growing up and so I just like, I know football better than other sports, like the rules and stuff. You mentioned you were in Paris for the Olympics. This question is in there,

but in case it doesn't get asked, I'm just gonna ask it. So that people aren't confused, you weren't there competing. You were there like doing work and competing. But the question of course is, if you're such a great fucking climber, why weren't you climbing in the Olympics, Alex?

That is a fair question. Now, everybody was like, would this be too easy for you? And I'm like, no, this is literally the hardest climbing in the world. And I spent two months last summer bicycling to Alaska to climb a mountain. You know what I mean? Like that is so far from the athletic training required

to be in the Olympics. It'd be like an Olympic gymnast spent a couple months like cycling across America for fun. And you're like, well, obviously that's gonna take a big hit on your actual performance. And the people that won the Olympics are all sort of 18 to 24 with the notable exception of the bronze medal

in climbing who's 31. But still, and he's like elder statesman at 31. I'm sort of 31, but still, and he's like elder statesman at 31. I'm sort of like, you know, it's more akin to gymnastics now where the people winning are sort of 18 to 25. Especially the speed climbing. I mean, it's like spiders running up a hill.

It's the craziest thing. Yeah, speed climbing is totally its own thing. I mean, is that like, what is like the climbing, like the mountaineering, like the alpinists, like what is their relationship with speed climbing? Like what is their perspective on that? Is this a real thing? Most outdoor climbers poo poo speed climbing for sure.

That's what I thought. But I actually think it's really cool. And I like that there's sort of a designated track on which climbers can measure themselves across time and across continents and things. I don't know. I mean, on my podcast, Climbing Gold, we interviewed all the American speed climbers and I've learned a lot more about it. And I was like, you know,

I'm actually pretty into speed climbing. Like in some ways it's, uh, the most egalitarian version of climbing. Uh, cause like weirdly like Indonesia won the gold medal. It's like one of their only gold medals ever. It's like a big deal for them. Um, and the, the guy that won, basically there are tons of speed walls in Indonesia because to be a speed climber all you need is one wall with one set of holds and Basically one harness and one pair of shoes. You don't have to open a big commercial gym. You don't need a big facility You don't need tons of people owning their own equipment And so it means that anywhere in the world you can have people speed climbing at a high level without a nice facility. And so we've kind of seen that like a lot of the world

records in speed climbing have been like in Indonesia and like Iran and various places that you don't really think of as climbing hotspots. And it's like kind of amazing that it gives other people an opportunity to be great climbers without, you know, like needing the same like climbing culture. Like you don't need the Alps to be, to win a gold medal. Right, right, right.

I don't know. And maybe, you don't need the Alps to be, to win a gold medal. Right, right, right. I don't know. And maybe, you know, that, because the bar to access is so low in that context, that then, you know, that creates enthusiasm that leads to other things that ultimately later in life can lead them to those places that would be so out of reach for somebody from that part of the world. Totally.

No, I mean, the, the, the, the Indonesian guy that just won the world. Totally. No, I mean, the Vedri Lenardo, the Indonesian guy that just won the gold medal, it's like totally transforms his life, his whole family's life, everything about it. I mean, winning gold for a country that doesn't really win like that, it's like, it was insane. Yeah, that's cool.

You're like, oh, that's so great. It's like, I mean, yeah, to transform your life through climbing, it's like people might poo-poo speed climbing, but you're like, come on, he still spends his whole life training for this thing that is climbing. And it is really, really hard. And you're like, come on, he still spends his whole life training for this thing that is climbing and it is really, really hard. And you're like, you gotta respect that.

It's also built for TV. I know, that thing is so incredible. Yeah, I think a lot of the like, you know, old school climbers that kind of poopoo that don't appreciate how hard it is and how much people put into it. But anyway. Next one.

Yeah, next one. Let's see what we got. What food in your fridge are you embarrassed to admit that you crave? That's a good question. Man, you get a good, interesting, how much did you have to curate all your questions? Some of them are mine.

Some of them are, yeah, yeah, yeah. But these are like, these are pretty good questions. I don't know, our fridge always looks like a sad bleak desert. Our fridge is always kind of barren and empty because my wife and I don't like to shop. And we typically have about one day worth of calories left in our fridge at any time.

So are you doing like Postmates and ordering in like takeout or what does that mean? No, thankfully we have a nanny that helps with our daughters and she basically just like picks up food from time to time. And if she didn't, I just wouldn't eat basically. I don't know. It just like, it's fine.

I just cannot be bothered. Do you have like an unhealthy craving though for like certain food that's not good for you? Yeah, but it's not in the fridge. It's all like cookies and sweets and things. Yeah. Like chocolate, I don't know. But man, like the other day I was in a place,

I went past a Cold Stone several times and I was like, I don't really do ice cream because I think I'm kind of lactose intolerant, but every once in a while you're just like, oh, I was in a place that I went past a Cold Stone several times and I was like, I don't really do ice cream. Cause, uh, I think I'm kind of lactose intolerant, but every once in a while you're just like, Oh, I really want, like, I was like, I'm going to get this Cold Stone, like crazy ice cream concoction. And I'd like pass the store several times. And finally I was like, you know what? I'm going in. And then I went over and there was like a line out the door. And then I got into line. I was like, I can wait, you know, I've been wanting this ice cream for a week. And then the first person in line in front of me was like, you look like whatever.

And then he was like, I took a rock climbing class at community college and then started chatting. And I was just like, no, I like candy. I'm just like, I just, I just totally failed. Cause I was like, I just can't stand next to it. Well, I was like, I just can't stand next to that. I'm sure he's a nice guy, but like, it was going to be like a 30 minute line,

just like chit-chatting with some dude that's like over stoked. I was like, no. Yeah. Especially for something that I knew I shouldn't be eating anyway. Just killed your ice cream. No, it was like God saying, you know,

you need to get out of cold stone. Well, that was exactly, that was exactly. I was kind of like, I took the sign and I just went home and I ate a little bit of dark chocolate instead. I was like, that's fine. All right. All right, next question. This is awesome. Next one.

This is climbing gold. Yeah, welcome to climbing gold. If you were such a good climber, why didn't you compete in the Olympics? Okay, we just did that. Yeah, I mentioned that because I wanted to make sure that that- No, maybe the simple answer is that

I'm just not that good at climbing. No, actually, well, the real answer is that it's basically like different sports. It's like ultra running versus sprinting. You know, it's like you could win a hundred miler, but you're not going to the Olympics. What is your favorite podcast or podcaster? You know- That's a loaded one.

Yeah, that is loaded, but I will say, I think you're one of the best interviewers that I've ever worked with. There we go. That's the reason why that's in there. You only had one answer to that question. Yeah, exactly. And you nailed it. I will say, I basically don't really listen to podcasts and I don't listen to my own podcast.

And I just, for whatever reason, when I'm listening to things, I like it to be music. Cause. So you're not like doing a deep dive on like, on like true crime in your earbuds when you're out of. I hate true crime. The whole genre I'm like, I think it's so stupid, but, but no, I don't listen to that many podcasts, but,

but I will say, yeah, you do a great job. Move on. Yeah, move on. Thank you. Yeah, you're a real professional, but that's why you were an attorney, right? So, I mean, you do a great job. Move on. Yeah, move on. Thank you. Yeah, you're a real professional, but that's why you were an attorney, right? So, I mean, you have a real education. What is Sonny's biggest gripe slash issue with you?

I think Sonny probably has a lot of gripes and issues with me. No, I don't know. Yeah, just like what comes up in your marriage. I mean, every marriage, you know, you have to navigate a disagreement and, you know, how do you communicate through like, you know, you have to navigate disagreement and you know, how do you communicate through like, you know, arguments and stuff like that. Like, so what's the thing that keeps coming up

where you're like, I need to work on this? Honestly, I don't know if there are any big issues like that. I think that probably the biggest stressor on the relationship is time management stuff. Like me being away, her having to like manage more at the house, me not appreciating the fact that she's managing more without me, things like that. I don't know. You have to ask her. Yeah. I was going to say, if she was sitting here and I asked her,

what would she say? Well, that's like, I don't know. I'm a great husband. I'm a good dad. You know, I think, I think she would say so too. Like, I mean, we're, we're a pretty good team. We do a good job. I think that, that, um, that the challenge though is just the fundamentals of my job, you know, or that if I'm working it, you know, I sometimes joke that I'm an overpaid day labor, you know, like if you're doing corporate speaking or something, you're basically a day labor, you just have to show up in places and like, you have to physically be there and do a thing. And, you know, obviously the rates are great cause it's corporate speaking, but it's like, you still have to go to all these places and those are all days away from the family, away from home.

And that's kind of the same for climbing as well, for expeditions, for TV shows, things like that. Like you have to be gone for long periods. And that definitely puts a strain on the family, puts a strain on Sonny. But sadly that just can't really be avoided. You know, it's kind of the nature of the work. And so then it's a matter of finding the right balance

and making sure that she feels supported. I don't know. Have you seen this movie, First Man where Ryan Gosling plays Neil Armstrong? That's intense. Very intense, but a lot of like similar, like he's got two young sons, he lost a daughter and he's got to explain to these boys

that he's gonna go on this trip to the moon and he might not come back, right? Like when you saw that movie, did that cause you to kind of reflect on your version of that? I saw that movie that- And he's so like, he's got these emotional challenges, like with his inability to like kind of connect

with his kids and express himself. That movie was out during the Free Solo tour. So I saw that like while we were touring with the film Free Solo and I didn't have kids yet. So obviously I didn't really connect on that whole level. And also we saw it like an IMAX or something. It was like maybe too intense. It was like too crazy with all the like rattling space shuttle stuff.

And I think I came out of it feeling like slightly sick and like sort of traumatized. So I don't know. I didn't really think about it in that way. But I don't know. We'll see. I mean, I think, you know, my older daughter is just starting to get old enough that I would feel a slight obligation to explain things to her as if I'm going to be gone for a long period of time or if, you know, if I'm doing hard things or something. So I just haven't really hadn't had to cross that bridge yet.

Yeah. We'll see. All right. Can we do one or two more of these? Yeah, that's fine. I love little simple questions. Easy cheesy. If I can open the card.

This one's like really well folded what movie represents climbing with the most accuracy or very similitude first versimilitude geez most accurate climbing movie is probably the eiger sanction have you ever seen that old clint eastwood movie terrible film uh it's like an action movie he's an assassin he's a rock climbing assassin. It's awesome. But the climbing sequences are super legit. And it culminates on the North face of the Eiger.

And apparently a cameraman died while they were filming it by rock fall. So, you know, it's pretty legit. They were like actually on the mountain. Was that one of the movies that you talked about when you did it? Was it for GQ or who'd you do that thing where you were like reviewing movies and the climbing?

Cause that's like such an iconic epic. It think it was GQ, I can't remember. That's like such an iconic epic. It's one of my favorite things I ever did. That's like the greatest thing you ever did. I know. I don't know how many views that thing has, but you just crushed that. I had so much fun doing that, I love doing that.

It was so fun. But yeah, that was one of them. And I did say that it's the best climbing footage. It's basically the best, the most realistic because it's actually slow and measured and like, because climbing is so undramatic You know you watch something like vertical limit and they're like jumping across our basses with ice axes You know like that doesn't make any sense like the physics don't even work, you know, like your arms to rip out you die and

you watch the the Eiger sanction the Clint Eastwood movie and it's like Slow and peaceful and they spend the whole day and they slowly work their way up the wall. And you're like, you know, that's all pretty legit. Like that's basically it. You had words around like Stallone and Cruz and like all these, like these kind of, have you ever like met any of those guys? Has this ever come up?

Like, have you ever crossed paths with any of those people? I haven't met those guys, but I met a handful of folks on the Free Solo Tour. Like I randomly met Antonio Menderas, you know, and he made the Zorro movies. And like when he met me, he told me this whole charming anecdote about, oh, one time when I was shooting Zorro 2 or something, I did this like fencing scene, like on a post above a big gap. And he's like, and I shot the whole scene and then realized that I hadn't clipped into the safety line. He was like, it was just like free soloing. And I was like,

yeah, it's just like free soloing. I'm like,, that's cool. But I definitely have met a bunch of people that have like anecdotes like that. Like, oh, the one time I thought I was gonna die. And you're like, that's cool. Everybody rolls up on you with their like close to death story. Well, particularly corporate things or like sales meetings, like CEOs and stuff are like,

oh yeah, I thought about doing that when I was a kid, but you know, I had that one time, didn't work out. You're kind of like, oh no, I'm sure you would have been great. What's the, what's the craziest like near death story that has been shared with you in that context? I don't know. Like at a corporate thing sort of recently. Oh no. It was, yeah. Whatever. Like a business event. This guy started telling me the story about skydiving and I thought it was going to be like a close call skydiving story. And I was like, oh, wow, this is crazy. And then it culminated in like, and then I hit the ground and broke both

my legs and punctured my lung and blah, blah, blah. And I was sort of like, oh, that took a dark turn. His chute didn't open at all. Well, a classic young twenties male, his like, he had a line over. So like his parachute was like sort of collapsed in the middle, like the, it was tangled. And so it wasn't quite working. And he had plenty of time to cut it away and pull his reserve. But he was like, Oh, I don't want to lose my shoot into the ocean. He was like in Hawaii or something. And he was kind of like, I can save it. I can save it. And as soon as you're like a 22 year old who thinks like, I know what I'm supposed to do, but I'm going to do it a different way. Cause I can handle it. You're like, you know, you're making bad decisions. And in this case,

yeah. But I really thought that he was going to tell the story is like, Oh, and then it was a close call. And then it was like, Oh no, I spent six months in the hospital and you case, yeah. But I really thought that he was going to tell the story as like, oh, and then it was a close call. And then it was like, oh no, I spent six months in the hospital and you know, whatever. And you're like, oh my God. Wow. It was like pretty grim. I'm still thinking about the other guy who basically was saying like,

yeah, I thought about doing what you did and I think I could have done it, but I just decided to go in a different direction with my life. But you get that kind of stuff all the time. Like at conferences, somebody walks up and they're like, oh, you're the guy that freestyled Yellowstone. That's cool.

That's cool. I thought about doing that once. And you're like, cool. Yeah. You're like, yeah, freestyle Yellowstone, whatever you think that means. Like I'm into it. That's so good.

All right. A couple more crumpled things. Yeah, let me do one or two. Are you in a hurry? No, I'm not in a hurry. I'll do two more. What do we got? What is one guilty pleasure you indulge in

that people might find surprising? Like desserts, I guess. Yeah, that sort of dovetails with the other one. Yeah, exactly. I mean, do we have other guilty? Yeah, probably. You're not like sneaking out at night and going to the strip and pulling the slot machines.

No, no. I'm trying to think like my new version of partying, the last couple of times I've been at like party parties where lots of people and people do drugs and people are like partying all night. My new thing is that, cause I don't drink and I don't really do drugs and I don't do any of that.

But I was like, now I eat dessert at late night. You know, like when you hit midnight, you're suddenly like, I'm gonna eat a bunch of cookies. And then you just wind up partying with everybody the whole night. And it's like, but you feel so much better the next day than if you had like drank or done drugs. That was the most wholesome answer I could have imagined.

Well, honestly, I love dessert. So it's just as good, just as much fun. Everybody's doing drugs and I'm eating cookies. I know, but if you eat all the cookies, you feel just as naughty and just as fun. I don't know about that. Is there a support group you attend for people whose amygdalas doesn't fire?

That's funny. No, I mean the short answer, no. The longer answer, I mean, it's a whole aside, but the scene in Free Solo just kind of shows us like, oh, his amygdala doesn't work, he's different, whatever. But like the real version of that was that, and this was, that whole scene in Free Solo was because this science journalist wanted to write

a long form like article. Anyway, so this long ass article in Nautilus magazine, you can look it up. But the takeaway was that with enough exposure to certain stimulus, you desensitize yourself to it. And so it's kind of like, it's not that my amygdala doesn't fire, it's that my amygdala wasn't firing

for that level of stimulus. You know, it's like, I'm looking at pictures in a totally safe space, which to me, I was like, obviously that shouldn't be scary. But typically that will light somebody's fear response, but that's because they don't spend their whole life getting scared for their life. You know, it's like, and so I was kind of like,

well, yeah, I've spent my whole life getting completely gripped, like scared out of my mind all the time. It was like, obviously what I'm doing in this FMRI machine is not gonna be scary. And so, I don't know, I think people see the little short version in the film, they're like, oh, no amygdala?

Like he's a freak. There's something wrong with your brain or there's some kind of like spectrum-y aspect about your personality. But actually, I think that really though, that's people sort of projecting their own thing because people always like to see someone doing something outlandish or different.

And they're like, well, that must be because they're just fundamentally different. And then I think it excuses them from having to think of the fact that they could do that too, if they worked hard at it for a really long time. Cause like, I don't really have- Oh, he can do it because his brain is different. Yeah, exactly.

And I'm kind of like, no, I can do it because I've spent 29 years spending five days a week training at that thing, consistently trying things that are hard for me and like pushing, like literally pushing hard my whole life. You're like, I don't think you can discredit that with like, oh, his brain's different. You're like, no, come on.

Right, the analogy would be like, if you put, you know, like somebody who's been addicted to heroin for two decades, like their hormones aren't gonna fire like a normal person because they're so used to like supercharging them with drugs or whatever, right? So they basically train themselves to need an extreme amount of whatever in order to like feel something

in the same way that you're putting yourself in risky situations. And so your relationship with fear has like, has changed as a result of those experiences. So you're not lighting up your brain in the same way. But I would argue that I have a healthier relationship with fear as a result, because, you know, if you're in the FIMRI machine and the battery of tests,

they were using, you'd look at this, the selection of images that everybody looks at, it's like a standardized test. And the images are just black and white cue cards that just like pop up in front of you. And you're laying there totally safe inside this machine surrounded by scientists. You know, it's all chill. Like, why would that be scary? But for the average human, you know, by seeing certain images, it just triggers like your brain just lights up certain ways. But I would argue that's kind of

silly because you shouldn't trigger a fear response unless you're actually in danger. And I think that, you know, with many years of climbing in dangerous places, I've sort of conditioned myself to only light up to fear when I'm actually in danger. Actually, I say that, but that's not even true because I get scared all the time when, when I probably shouldn't, uh, you know, because climbing is just scary. Climbing is like, even when you have a rope on and you're climbing and it's all safe, there are still times where you're like, Oh, this is kind of scary. It's insane. And even in watching this documentary, I mean, you guys are like, there's, there's, you know, you're, you, you're, you're a hundred, there's a hundred feet of rope, right? So you're looking at like 200 feet

if you fall, like there's crazy gaps there. So it's not safe at all. And sometimes though, even when you are safe, it's still just scary. You know, you can be like a couple of feet above your last piece of gear. So you're only looking at a few foot fall. It's totally fine and safe, the rope will catch you. And you're still like, oh, I don't wanna fall. Like this is a scary position. So even with a lot of experience, like climbing is fundamentally scary, but I think that that does desensitize you

to all these other fears in life. It's like being late for your flight is just not scary anymore compared to thinking about death. What about when you go to like a horror movie? Like if you go to a really scary movie, does that- I hate horror, I never intentionally watch. But partially because- But that idea of like, it's not really,

you're not really at peril, right? But something, there's some stimuli that's trying to tell you that you're in danger. Well, that's the thing that I don't like about it. It's like, so one, if there's like jump cut type things, like when it moves really fast and then all of a sudden it shrieks or something, like you start all from that like you're supposed to start all from that because otherwise, you know like

Terrible things will happen to you in nature And and so I'm kind of like you don't want to totally suppress those types of reactions like if something suddenly flashes into your vision And like makes a loud noise like you should be startled by that And so I don't like it if a movie sort of takes advantage of that kind of thing. And then the other end of the horror spectrum is just like things that make you deeply uncomfortable. You know, we were like, Oh, someone's being tortured or it's like gore or whatever. And I'm kind of like, I just, I don't like that. You know, like I don't need that. Yeah. I don't know. Yeah. I never watch horror. I think it's, I think the whole genre is totally stupid. Basically there's enough scary stuff in life. Like why do you need to scare yourself on

your own sofa? You know, it's like, like just go do something there's enough scary stuff in life. Like why do you need to scare yourself on your own sofa? It's like, just go do something that's actually scary. All right, last one. Okay, last one. Unless it's terrible. Okay. Unless it's not a good one. Unless this one's stupid, then we're...

If you had to redo your life with the same dedication to a pursuit other than climbing, what would that be? This is a great question. That was from an audience member. Oh yeah. Man, it's hard to imagine caring about something as much as I've cared about climbing. Yeah, it's asking you to care about something

that you don't care about or to not care about the thing that is like kind of the only thing you really care about. I mean, in a way I wish I had cared about something that's more fundamentally useful, because like if I had cared about physics as much as I care about climbing, maybe I could have made some real contributions to human knowledge or something like that.

I don't know. I studied engineering briefly before I dropped out of school. It's like if I'd been really into engineering of some kind and invented cool new things, really, I don't know. The problem with the question is it's asking you to want something that you don't actually want. You know what I mean? So it's hard to inhabit that and figure out what that would be.

Well, it's asking you what do you think would have been the most useful thing to want? But I'm like, I don't know. I mean, or like medicine, like imagine if I could have cured cancer and been like really into, you know, like cell biology or something, like gone deep into how do you save healthy cells

or I don't know. But you have the foundation and you have this, you know, passion for the environment and you're, you know, it seems like you have a lot of, you know, maybe climbing aside, you still would have done that and you still have the opportunity to do that. So they're not mutually exclusive. Yeah, I think it's an interesting idea.

Like, cause I often think like in a different life, like if I hadn't found climbing, like if I hadn't gone to a climbing gym, like would I have just led a totally normal life as an engineer in a cubicle, just whatever? Or would you just get totally into some other path and like go hard and like push hard? I don't know.

But I think I'm really lucky that I found something that I love as much as climbing, that I've been willing to try the hard. It's a gift, it's a curse too. I think it's a gift. I mean, honestly, I think that's another one of my random thoughts about parenting is like the real goal of parenting is help your child

find the one thing that they're like into that much. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, and you can't, that's not something you can impose upon them or force. All you can do is expose them to tons of stuff and encourage them and figure out what they gravitate towards and then kind of rush in to support that. Yeah, encourage them to embrace whatever passion they have.

You know, like, cause that's the kind of the thing if someone's into something a little niche or a little weird and you're like, that's weird, you shouldn't be into that, then you can squash it. But you never know. I mean, like the human experience is so broad, you know, if somebody is into something like go for it. Right, I mean, who would have thought that you could have built a career off of like this thing that you're,

yeah, that you're into and you could have easily been in a situation where you were just dissuaded or somebody just said, this is insane. And you, you kind of like took that in instead of dismissing it. Yeah. I mean, credit to my parents, they were always just like, you can do anything. You can be good at whatever you want, you know, like that kind of thing. That's a gift also. Yeah. I mean, and I don't know if they said that explicitly so much, but it was sort of always the understated. Yeah, it's like, you know, whatever you wanna do,

you can do it well. Yeah. You're like, cool. So, well, maybe that's a good place to kind of wrap this up. Like that's a good message to put out and an uplifting message to put out to the world. Like if somebody is in that place, like it is a gift to like know at a young age,

like this is what I love and this is what I'm gonna do. And like, there's just not gonna be anything else except this. Most people don't have that. Like they're bouncing around like, yeah, I kinda like what I do, but I haven't found that. To be fair, that makes it sound like I always knew that climbing was my calling, but realistically,

I thought I was going to college. I went to college, I didn't love it. Then I thought I was just gonna climb for a little bit college. I didn't love it. Then I thought I was just going to climb for a little bit. Then I thought I'd probably have to become a mountain guide or become, you know, do some outdoor, I don't know, like be a camp counselor or something, you know, because there's no money in climbing and you couldn't be a professional climber.

And then eventually I started to make some money through climbing and it was kind of like, well, I may as well do this as long as I can to see what I can do for myself, because I love climbing. And so now, you now, 20 years later, it looks like it was an obvious path, but it was definitely not an obvious path.

The whole time you're like, is this a thing? Like, can I be a climber? And I think that's where having the real passion for it, I think has helped to sustain that for so long. Yeah, I mean, I think it's good to hear that, because it is easy to form the wrong idea. I don't want people to be daunted by like, because nobody knows that they're on the right path

while they're doing it. You don't get to know that. It's only in retrospect that you look back and you're like, oh, obviously. It all makes sense. Yeah. But I mean, did you ever think like, I'm gonna be a podcast?

No, it's ludicrous. It's like absolutely ridiculous. Yeah, you can't, you don't get to see where the path leads. And I think that's a big impediment to people kind of taking that first step It was like, yeah, you can't, you don't get to see when you were graduating law school. Where the path leads. And I think that's a big impediment to people kind of taking that first step because as human beings, our brains, like we wanna know, like, well,

if I decide I wanna do this, like, where is it gonna lead me? Where is it gonna go? And it's like, you don't get to have that. But that's what I think was the gift for me with climbing is that I love taking each step as a climber. You know, like, I don't know where the path is going. I don't know anything about the path, but every day I'm like

I love going climbing. I love going climbing. So the destination doesn't matter. Yeah, and then years later, you're just like, you know I've been walking down this path of climbing forever. Yeah. And it's great. And you're gonna keep walking it. Hopefully. Yeah.

Doing my best. 39 now? 39. That's the other thing. Like, like, couldn't it, couldn't it be like a non-athletic thing that was the thing so that you could do it at your peak for like, you know, it's like you have the ticking clock of like age, you know, that also. Yeah.

Is it playing with anything athletic? We'll see, but I wouldn't be surprised if by the time I'm 50-ish, if I might have just slightly less passion for climbing. If I've just been going hard at one thing for, you know, 40 years at that point, I might be like, you know, maybe I'll chill a little bit. Cause like I have tried really hard for a long time. I think you've earned a little chill time. No one's going to blink at that. I want to climb my whole life, but at some point I do just want to like do crossword puzzles all

day and just eat cookies and just chill. You could do that now if you want. I know, but I'm not ready yet. All right, man, this was great. Thanks so much. I appreciate it to be continued hopefully next time you have something you wanna share. In the meantime, The Devil's Climb premiering on Nat Geo October 17th.

And I think then right after that, I think it's going to like- Streaming. Streaming. Yeah, so Disney Plus the day after. Yeah, all that kind of stuff. So check it I think it's going to like- Streaming. Streaming. Disney Plus. Yeah, all that kind of stuff. So check it out, it's great. I love watching it.

I love the relationship that you have with Tommy and it's so much more than just like a climbing movie. Like there's a lot in there for people that, you know, I won't spoil, but everybody should check it out. No, and it's so beautiful. It's like, it's such an incredible- It's insane. Yeah, it's, I mean, just for the visuals of Alaska,

like even if you watched it on mute, you'd still be like, this is a beautiful film. Right. Just have it on in the background. Yeah, totally. I mean, honestly, it'd be pretty good background. Yeah, cool. All right, man.

Thanks, brother. Thank you. We appreciate it. We're brought to you today by Element. Get your free Element sample pack with any drink mix purchase at drinklmnt.com slash richroll. We're brought to you today by 8sleep. Head to 8sleep.com slash richroll and use code richroll at checkout to get $350 off the Pod 4 Ultra. That's 8sleep, E-I-G-H-T, sleep.com slash richroll. That's it for today. Thank you for listening. I truly hope you enjoyed the conversation.

To learn more about today's guest, including links and resources related to everything discussed today, visit the episode page at richroll.com where you can find the entire podcast archive, my books, Finding Ultra, Voicing Change in the Plant Power Way, as well as the Plant Power Meal Planner

at meals.richroll.com. If you'd like to support the podcast, the easiest and most impactful thing you can do is to subscribe to the show on Apple Podcasts, on Spotify and on YouTube and leave a review and or comment. This show just wouldn't be possible without the help of our amazing sponsors

who keep this podcast running wild and free. To check out all their amazing offers, head to richroll.com slash sponsors. And sharing the show or your favorite episode with friends or on social media books, the meal planner, and other subjects, please subscribe to our newsletter, which you can find on the footer of any page at richroll.com. Today's show was produced and engineered by Jason Camiolo. The video edition of the podcast was created by Blake Curtis with assistance by our creative director, Dan Drake. Portraits by Davey Greenberg. Graphic and social media assets courtesy of Daniel Solis. And thank you, Georgia Whaley, for

copywriting and website management. And of course, our theme music was created by Tyler Pyatt, Trapper Pyatt, and Harry Mathis. Appreciate the love. Love the support. See you back here soon. Peace. Plants. Namaste.