The Rich Roll Podcast - Lisa Bilyeu: Transcend the Purgatory of the Mundane

Episode Date: June 20, 2022

Here to illuminate truths big and small on all things self-confidence, relationships, mindset, and more is entrepreneur turned author Lisa Bilyeu. Lisa is the co-founder of Quest Nutrition a company she helped grow into a billion-dollar unicorn alongside her husband and friend of the pod Tom Bilyeu. She’s also co-founder and President of the digital-first media enterprise Impact Theory Studios, where among many other duties she hosts Women of Impact, a show that is all about empowering women to become the heroes of their own lives. In addition, Lisa is the author of the recently released Radical Confidence, a memoir and practical toolbox for developing a growth mindset and transcending what she calls the ‘purgatory of the mundane’. Our conversation covered quite a bit, including: the importance of intentional communication in marriage and relationships; developing a growth mindset—and why you don’t have to hit bottom to change; how gratitude can in some cases hold you back; thoughts on setting healthy boundaries, finding a mission, and many other topics. Lisa is a unique force of nature. She might be petite, but don’t be fooled. She definitely packs a punch. Today’s episode is also viewable on YouTube: https://bit.ly/lisabilyeu687 More about Lisa + show notes: https://bit.ly/richroll687 If you feel stuck in a life scenario that isn’t serving you and looking for a constructive, empowering way forward, this one’s for you. Lisa is an absolute firecracker. Enjoy! Peace + Plants, Rich

confidence to me was like how you feel about yourself so people want to feel great before they start anything i was the same as oh i'm gonna start my youtube channel once i have the confidence and so what ends up happening is people don't actually take action because they're waiting for the confidence to come the confidence part will come over time it will come with action it will come with repetition it will come with gaining competence It will come with repetition. It will come with gaining competence. The confidence is the byproduct. And so if we can stop focusing on the confidence and have radical confidence, which to me means you have insecurities, you have doubts in yourself, you actually probably are not equipped for what you're about to do, but you still show up and do it anyway. You don't allow

your negative mindset, the voice in your head that's saying you're not worthy, you're not good enough. You don't let it take over. What's that mission? What's that reason you get up every day? Money and success doesn't buy you happiness. How you feel about yourself does. That's it. How you feel about yourself. So do I feel healthy? Do I feel good? Do I have a healthy mindset? Am I proud of myself? Do I get up every day and fight for something bigger than myself? If I can keep answering those as yes, then I know I'm doing the right thing. The Rich Roll Podcast.

Hey, everybody. Welcome to the podcast. What is happening today? Well, today, we're going to talk about self-confidence. We're going to talk about relationships, communication, mindset, and tons more with entrepreneur-turned-author Lisa Bilyeu. Lisa is the co-founder, along with her husband and friend of the podcast, Lisa Bilyeu. Lisa is the co-founder along with her husband and friend of the podcast, Tom Bilyeu of a company called Quest Nutrition, which is a company she was instrumental in helping grow into a billion dollar unicorn. And she's also the co-founder and president of Impact Theory Studios, a digitalfirst media company where among many other duties, she hosts Women of Impact,

a show that is all about empowering women to become the heroes of their own lives, which is a theme that predominates, that pervades her new book, Radical Confidence, a memoir slash practical toolbox for developing a growth mindset and for transcending what she calls the purgatory of the mundane. It's all coming up, but first.

We're brought to you today by recovery.com. I've been in recovery for a long time. It's not dot com. I've been in recovery for a long time. It's not hyperbolic to say that I owe everything good in my life to sobriety. And it all began with treatment and experience that I had that quite literally saved my life. And in the many years since, I've in turn helped many suffering addicts and their loved ones find treatment. And with that, I know all too well just how confusing and how overwhelming and how challenging it can be to find the right place and the right level of care, especially because, unfortunately, not all treatment resources adhere to ethical practices. by the people at recovery.com who created an online support portal designed to guide, to support, and empower you to find the ideal level of care tailored to your personal needs. They've partnered with the best global behavioral health providers to cover the full spectrum of behavioral health disorders, including substance use disorders, depression, anxiety, eating disorders, gambling

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everything good in my life to sobriety and And it all began with treatment and experience that I had that quite literally saved my life. And in the many years since, I've in turn helped many suffering addicts and their loved ones find treatment. And with that, I know all too well just how confusing and how overwhelming and how challenging it can be to find the right place

and the right level of care, especially because unfortunately, not all treatment resources adhere to ethical practices. It's a real problem. A problem I'm now happy and proud to share has been solved by the people at recovery.com who created an online support portal designed to guide, to support, and empower you to find the ideal level of care tailored to your personal needs. Thank you. disorders, gambling addictions, and more. Navigating their site is simple. Search by insurance coverage, location, treatment type, you name it. Plus, you can read reviews from former patients to help you decide. Whether you're a busy exec, a parent of a struggling teen,

or battling addiction yourself, I feel you. I empathize with you. I really do. And they have treatment options for you. Life and recovery is wonderful. And recovery.com is your partner in starting that journey. When you or a loved one need help, go to recovery.com and take the first step towards recovery. To find the best treatment option for you or a loved one, again, go to recovery.com. Okay, Lisa Bilyeu. So, Lisa is a unique force of nature. She might be petite, but she definitely, definitely packs a punch. And this one covers quite a bit. We discuss the importance of intentional communication

in marriage and relationships. We talk about developing a growth mindset and why you don't have to hit bottom to change. We also discuss, interestingly, how gratitude can, in some cases, hold you back and why it's important to be in relationship with your own negative self-talk. Plus, thoughts on setting healthy boundaries,

finding a mission, and many other topics. If you're somebody who feels stuck in a life scenario or a career or a job or a profession or a relationship that isn't quite serving you and you're looking for a constructive, empowering way forward, then I think this one's for you. Lisa is an absolute delight.

I really enjoyed talking to her. So let's get on with it. This is me and Lisa Bill Yu. I'm really glad to have you here today. It took a minute for us to get it together, but always delighted to be in your presence. Congratulations on the new book. There's so much stuff to talk about.

And I just look forward to enjoying your energy. I'm so excited, Rich, seriously. So I know Tom a little bit and we spent, we've done each other's shows and all of that kind of stuff. And one of the things that I always respect and kind of that kind of stuff. And one of the things that I always respect and kind of admire about him is how quick he is to make sure that you're part of any conversation around

his success and what he does. He's always saying, it's Lisa and me, we're partners, we're equal partners. You got to understand where Lisa's coming from and how much she's contributed to all of this. It's very similar to the relationship that I have with my wife in terms of kind of what we've built together and individually. And when you share that perspective with somebody, you typically get that response of,

well, behind every great man, there's a strong woman. And like, I hate that. My wife hates that because it's still a very condescending perspective. It means that the woman is standing behind the man. It's so true. And I used to be conflicted with it because coming from a very traditional Greek background,

that was kind of what you were taught that is going to be your identity. So originally I actually was very proud of that. And so as I would see Tom grow into the person he is today, like I was very proud to feel like I know you know I'm behind the scenes and I have his back and it's you know big help because of me but you're right over time I started to realize actually it's kind of positioning me as being secondary and have you read rocket rocket fuel mm-hmm so good so it

basically explains how in most dynamics, whether it's business or relationships, you've got the one that's the more dominant, the big shiny object, the one that has the, basically the rocket, the beast. And then you have the fuel that is behind the rocket, but without the fuel, the rocket doesn't move. And so that book really allowed me to codify kind of mine and Tom's relationship

and feeling like I am just as valuable. And to your point of being behind the person, it doesn't feel like that analogy makes you seem as equals. And so the rocket fuel analogy was so perfect for me when I heard it. Right, what's interesting about the book is that conservative traditional perspective. Like for many years, there was a lot of pride

in I'm supporting Tom and that's my role. I'm CEO of Bill You Industries. Tom's going to work. I'm taking care of everything else, like very traditional. And obviously, you know, an outgrowth or a reflection of the way that you were raised and a certain level of unapologetic pride about that.

But I feel like part of that growth equation for you or arc has been stepping out from behind that shadow, owning your own space. And that's really, you know, part of the whole narrative here. Yeah, absolutely. And actually, as you were talking, I realized a big part of it was,

I didn't feel like I had the confidence to be standing next to him. And so it felt actually comfortable being behind him, feeling like the supportive wife. Because when you step out in front and you own your thoughts, you own the way you act, the way you show up every day,

that can be very scary. And when you don't have confidence, it actually deters you from wanting to step out in front. Yeah, and I think, and you address this in the book, it's easy for people to look at you and Tom and see this very successful, glamorous couple living, a certain kind of lifestyle

and enjoying a certain level of success and impacting a lot of people while you're doing it and say, well, that's just an inaccessible situation for me to relate to, they're who they are, but I'm who I am. And your book is really an attempt to like decode that and deconstruct that and paint this picture of like the truth. And what was amazing was, you know, reading, like I've heard Tom talk about this,

like you don't understand how hard it was and where we came from and all of that, but you really filled in the gaps on that. Thank you. Because it was a really hard fought long road to get to where you guys are. Yeah, and that was a big part of why I wrote the book is that so many people ask me, Rich,

like, oh my God, I want your confidence. And I'm like, hey, you have no idea how I started. I was that 14 year old girl that was just bullied and teased for my looks. And I was put in a special class for being mildly dyslexic and holding my pencil the wrong way. And I felt really badly about myself. And so when people were saying to me now, like, oh my God, you're so confident. I was like, I still don't feel it. You should still hear the

voice in my head that is utterly negative on anything that I do. And so to me that it was imperative to write a book and call it radical confidence because to me it wasn't the traditional way that people think of it. I'm still scared. I'm still nervous. I still doubt myself all the time. But how do I keep showing up? It's really to not listen to the negative thoughts. It's to have a toolbox that you can dive into when you don't feel great about yourself. Like how do you pick yourself back up? That's the thing that I really wanted to emphasize in the book, because to paint the vision of perfection doesn't serve anyone. It doesn't serve me. If I think I'm perfect,

where's it to go? Where's it to grow? So it was very important to be so honest about where I come from, how I still think, and I still have that negative voice that's telling me I'm no good. I just don't let it get in my way. Well, we're gonna get to the growth mindset stuff and the radical confidence stuff, but let's set the stage a little bit and fill in the gaps. Walk us through your background a little bit growing up in this conservative Greek family in the UK and coming to Los Angeles and meeting Tom

and kind of everything that ensued. Yeah, I was a kid that had big dreams. Like I was getting up at three in the morning to watch the Academy Awards, like as a kid in London, because I honestly, I loved movies. It was an escape for me. Because I didn't feel great about myself,

because I was teased, because girls weren't very nice to me in school, I found movies to be such a beautiful way to escape and to dream big. And so as a kid, I was like, I want to make movies, I want to make films. And so I came to America, I do this film course and my teacher happens to be my husband.

Well, let's hold on for a second. I wanna drill down a little bit more. Let's do it. I love these stories of you in high school, like sneaking into movie premieres and all of that. Like that's how far you took this. And my sense of that is that you were a dreamer in the context of, you know, a family situation that was driving you towards marriage,

kids, something very safe, secure, traditional, and was really muting that higher ambition that you had. Like you had, you know, something that you aspire to that extended beyond what was acceptable in your house. Yes, thank you, actually. That's so on point and very important to mention because as I was this kid that was having these big dreams, watching movies, my dad was always telling me that I would end up being a stay-at-home wife.

And now look, he didn't mean that to be cruel. He didn't wanna be mean, but where he came from, a tiny, tiny village in the mountains of Cyprus, where literally a toilet was a hole in the floor. And so because there were a limited amount of kids that could go to school in the village, he was one of the chosen ones and he was a boy. And so he just saw no woman ever got chosen because there was no contraception. So women didn't get chosen because they were going to get pregnant very early on anyway. So that mentality, that idea, that notion is exactly what my dad had and instilled in me growing up so when I

wanted to um you know had these big dreams I want to go to America I want to make film all I got was well you'll end up being a stay-at-home wife and even to the point where I was this kid falling on the floor scraping my knee you know like as my yaya, my grandmother would come running over to me and in her big thick Greek accent, she'd go, oh, you'll be okay by the time you get married. It's okay. Think about that messaging. Think about what that does to a little girl

over and over and over again. That every time you're upset, every time you're hurt, she comforts you with a notion that don't worry, you'll be okay by the time you get married. So really she's kind of setting the stage as marriage being the end goal. That's like the highlight of your life. And even your dad going so far as to say,

when you were struggling in school to just sort of say, well, you know, it's not gonna be that big of a deal because ultimately you're just gonna end up being married and you know, it won't matter. Yeah, I wanted to study film because I was like, I wanna be a movie director. I've got these big dreams. And so, yeah, we argued for like two weeks. And in the end, he was just like,

ah, it doesn't matter anyway, you'll be a stay at home wife. Again, he didn't mean it to be malicious. That was just his perspective. But when I think about how we show up and who we become, it really does, I think, stem from who we were as kids and what we're told we're going to be. So even though I had these big dreams,

my belief system overtook the dream that was inside me. Yeah. So you come to LA to do this. It's New York Film Academy, right? Yeah. I know that they have that summer program because I looked into it for one of my kids where you get to be on the back lot.

Yes. I think at Warner's, right? At Universal Studios. Universal, yeah. And it looks like a really cool program. Yeah. because I looked into it for one of my kids where you get to be on the back lot, I think at Warner's, right? Universal Studios. Universal, yeah. And it looks like a really cool program. And I didn't know that, so Tom was like the teacher? Yeah, so what happened was I finished film school.

So I ended up going to film school cause my dad was like, well, study whatever you want. It doesn't really matter. So I go to film school and I didn't get the experience in movie directing. Now I had the dream, I was gonna be the first female to win Academy Award as movie director. Catherine Bigelow beat me to it, but anyway, that was what I wanted to do.

So when I went to my dad after college and it cost money because it was a private, you know, four week, eight week course, we argued. And eventually he's like, all right, let's just make a deal. When you go there, when you come back,

you're going to get a job and be serious. Now, when he says get a job, it basically is a job to tie you over until you get married because then as soon as you go there, when you come back, you're going to get a job and be serious. Now, when he says get a job, it basically is a job to tie you over until you get married. Because then as soon as you get married, the expectation is you quit your job and you have kids. So when I had this course that I really wanted to go to, he eventually said yes. I go to America thinking it's gonna be an eight week course

and I walk in and Tom is my teacher. Right. I love how you describe him at that time. It just seems so different than the Tom we all know. Yeah, it really is. And that's part of my story and our story is that neither of us had growth mindsets when we met. We had very different lives.

We came from very different backgrounds and that was partly the big hurdle we had to get over with my family, where I was the first person in my family to marry outside of the Greek culture. And so all the pushback that we got from that and then having a growth mindset and developing to be in the people we are today.

Right, and hence ensues this long struggle where you guys are just trying to make ends meet and living in a tiny apartment and driving a beater car and all the kind of stuff that happens when you're young in Hollywood and have a dream. But one thing that, you know, Tom always talks about, and I don't mean to be continuing to bring it back to Tom, but it's just my frame of reference,

is, you know, it seems like he felt this obligation or had made this promise, like I'm gonna create a large life for my wife. And that was part of how he wins over your family or your dad. And that seems to really drive him, like his commitment to following through on that promise. Yes, that is very true.

And that was kind of one of the early signs for me that he was very special in my life. So we wanted to get married. He went to my dad to ask for his blessing. And my dad just said, no. My dad came from a very traditional Greek family. So for him, he was like, well, first of all, the cultures are different.

How can this ever work? What's gonna happen to your kids? You're not even christened. You can't get married in a Greek church. So my dad was seeing all the things of why it wouldn't work. And then Tom, yeah, his famous words- Did he leave out the part about being an atheist?

He did leave it out. I was like, babe, just don't tell my dad that. But he was one of those people, he said, look, if this is important to you, I'll absolutely get christened. And it doesn't mean that you're changing my beliefs. So if you can just respect that I still believe in what I believe in, but if this is important to you, and so it was those moments that showed who he was, the moments where he showed my, he just said to my dad,

you know, I respectfully hear you and thank you for giving me your opinion, but I still plan to ask your daughter to marry me. And because my my dad came from nowhere like literally nothing and he'd built his wealth and success and you know house roof over his head that was what he saw and so he turned to Tom and he's like you don't even really have a job like at that point Tom was you know part-time he was moving to England so that we could try and be together or temporarily moving to England so my dad was like you can't even support her you know how are you going to take. So my dad was like, you can't even support her. How are you gonna take care of my daughter? Very traditional. And so Tom famously said, look, I know who you see today

may not be who you think I can become, but I know what I'm made of. And I'm gonna show you one day that I will take care of your daughter. And all of this is without me in the room, but it was just the promise that he made to my dad. And it was, I think a beautiful push for Tom as well you know he held on to that he held on to the doubt and it wasn't doubt in a cruel way it was just my dad just saw

in essence the facts it's like you've got a part-time job you know you're not earning much money you're in lots of college debt um and my daughter has a roof over her head she's very comfortable you know and you're trying to take her away across the world. And I don't even know who you are. And because he couldn't relate to his culture because Tom, you know, wasn't christened and didn't have much of a cultural background. My dad was just like, this could never work.

Beyond that, the bullseye that you're aiming for is like threading a needle. That the success, you know, that you aspire to eludes most people. I mean, every year, busloads of people arrive in Hollywood, they've got a dream of being in the movies and before long,

they're working some kind of part-time job or whatever. And most of them flame out and leave, or just settle into whatever career path is ancillary to the thing that they really aspire to do. And that really is the beginning of your path as well. Like Tom ends up in some job, your home prepping meals and wondering what you're doing with your life. And that goes on for a long time.

Like I think people, if they Google you, it's like, oh, quest and like this huge success story. But there was a lot of hardship, you know, during that period of time of just making ends meet, of course, but also this idea of you settling into this purgatory of the mundane, which is a big theme of the book.

Yeah, it was really hard. And I think that that's the thing that I try to lean into now more and more in talking about because I never hit rock bottom. And how many people have you seen or met in your life that their successes came because they hit rock bottom? Yeah how many people, you know, have you seen or met in your life that their successes came because they hit rock bottom? Yeah, I've raised my hand right here. Oh, right. So, it's like you've got nothing to lose, so why not go for it? But what about someone like myself who I didn't hit rock bottom? If you'd asked me at the time and people did,

oh, how are you? Fine. I'm all right. It wasn't exciting. Nothing bad enough to jump me into action and I've stayed there for eight years and that's why I call it the purgatory of the mundane it's like you're this hamster just running on a wheel um and actually not going anywhere and so because of that I didn't think that I had the right to ask for more because I didn't hit rock bottom. And I'd heard so many stories of other people who had real hardships. And so for the first couple of years where I, you had said earlier, president of Bill You Enterprises,

which basically was my title for being a stay at home wife. Right, it's like a whitewashed version of saying you're a housewife. Exactly, so I use gratitude. And I was like, for the first year, we're just doing this for the greater good. Tom was gonna try and make was like, you know, for the first year, we're just doing this for the greater good. Tom was going to try and make enough money so we can make movies. So we kind of had a plan. And so I was like, okay, I can do it for the greater good. I don't like cooking.

I don't like cleaning, but you know what? I can do this for a year. I can do this for 18 months. And so every time I would find myself unhappy, miserable, thinking to myself, how did I end up here when this wasn't the life that I wanted? I use gratitude to remind myself of, I had an amazing husband, I had a roof over my head, so many people don't. Now, year three, year four, year five, year six, year seven, year eight,

that gratitude is exactly what kept me stuck. Yeah, it's a really interesting point that you make the downside of gratitude or how relying on gratitude can prevent you from believing in something better for yourself. Yeah. Because if you're always told to just be grateful for what you have, then you're going to settle or you're going to be reluctant to reach for a higher place. Exactly. And that was exactly what happened to me where I used it as an empowering tool, which I think it can be beautiful so that you don't just have a negative

mindset all the time. So, you know, shifting that perspective can be beautiful. The problem was, is that it stopped me from ever then speaking up. And so in year, you know, five and six, where I was like, this is not the life I wanted. I was like, well, how I'm great for you, Lisa, your husband's out every day working. You don't have to work. I'm cooking, I'm cleaning, but I don't have to go to a nine to five or anything like that. How ungrateful are you? How ungrateful are you to want more and say that you're unhappy when you have a roof over your head, when you have food to eat and other people don't? And so that gratitude piece absolutely made me stay where I was and it didn't allow me to speak up and say, hang on a minute.

Yes, I can be grateful for this. I can absolutely be grateful for having a husband that loves me in a roof over my head, but that doesn't and shouldn't dismiss this other side of it where I'm profoundly unhappy. Like why do we dismiss other areas of our lives? Because we should be grateful for one area. Yeah. I think this is the most accessible and relatable aspect of your whole story. I mean, I think there's millions of people out there who are in some version of that reality where everything's kind of okay and we can just perpetuate the status quo ad infinitum

and maybe next year there'll be a promotion or something like that and we can go on a vacation. There's nothing inherently wrong with anything that's happening. It's not really the life that I aspire to have, but like, who am I to aspire to that? Like I have it pretty good. And without that bottom

or that kind of intervening interruption, like an illness or something to shake you out of your kind of daydream of the life that you're living, it's hard to have the level of self-reflection to make those changes. Like I know all the positive changes that I've made in my life have really been driven by pain. And that pain can be emotional, physical, existential,

but it has to reach a certain level of acuteness in order to get my attention. So it actually takes a stronger person and a lot more kind of wherewithal to have your wits about you to course correct when things aren't cataclysmic. Yeah, exactly. And that's why it's like, it really did feel like it was purgatory. It was like, I wasn't moving either way. So what is the inflection point? I mean, I know growth mindset enters stage left and Tom starts to develop this interest

and you just start to do the same. And that really begins to shift the energy and the trajectory here. But like, how did that actually function? Like what exactly transpired? So we had been doing it for eight years. Eventually it turned into, we were trying to make enough money to make movies.

And then it just turned into just making enough money. Right, that can become a delusion, right? Like someday we're gonna make movies, but we gotta make the money to make movies. And then it just turned into just making enough money. Right, that can become a delusion, right? Like someday we're gonna make movies, but we gotta make the money first. Or, you know, I went to law school and it was like, well, I didn't go to law school so I could work in a big corporate law firm, but I gotta pay these loans off.

And, you know, when I get enough money, then I'll end up pursuing the thing that I actually wanna do. Most people never get to that because they're so unhappy, they start to overspend to compensate for their lack of happiness until they're so leveraged that they're stuck in a situation they never wanted to be in in the first place.

Yeah, it's so true. And so like to your point, I literally say, oh, we'll do this when? And oh, we'll do it when we have enough money, when we have enough time, when I have the confidence. There's always like, we'll do it when? And so the thing that I'd love to ask your audience right now is like, what, when are they looking at? Well, the goalposts always move because as soon as you get close to that and it becomes a potential reality, that's too frightening. So we have

to push it out again. Yeah, that's fascinating. That's so interesting. Why do you think we do that? I mean, you know, it's because the fear of the unknown exceeds like the discomfort of the current. I think people are afraid of what would happen if they actually put themselves on the line. And there's a certain comfort level in just continuing along the current path. And there's a level of emotional self-sabotage

that I think certain people have. I know what that feels like. Yeah, thousand percent. I love that. So yeah, it was after eight years, we were doing the same. It was like, oh, well, we'll do this. Yeah, we'll do this when?

I'll speak up when? When we have enough money, then I'll be happy. When my husband feels successful, he'll be happy, so then I'll be happy. And so there was always the when. And eventually what happened was we would end up chasing money. And to me, I'd always made a commitment. Like I was okay with actually being unhappy. I wasn't okay with my relationship breaking. And when I started to see that Tom's unhappiness and my unhappiness was causing our relationship to fracture, it almost gave me the jolt I needed to say, hey, I don't care about money.

Like, what the hell are we doing right now? I've lost my husband. You don't seem happy. I've lost who you are, your personality. I'm not happy. So what on earth are we doing this for? So let's just reassess what our life should look like. And of course, surprise, surprise,

we tried to run away from the problem. So it was like, oh, well, we'll just quit and move countries. That should be fine. We'll go to Greece and we'll just write and we'll be happy. And so in that process, Tom had had these two business partners. So for the eight years, they were trying to make enough money, build a company. And so eventually, he's like, all right, I'll go in and quit. And on paper, we had earned a couple of million dollars. But we were both of the mindsets, if you don't cross the finish line, you don't get the payout, we weren't willing to cross the finish line. And so that was one of those moments was like, oh, money doesn't buy happiness. Well, they kept saying they were going to sell the company, right? And that kind of dragged along

and kept you in it longer than you want it to be. Because that never happened. And it wasn't until didn't you guys decide, okay, Tom's going to quit, goes in to quit. And then it was one more thing like, okay, six more months and then we're gonna change the way we're doing things and we're gonna try this other thing. Yeah, the difference in that situation. So after the eight years, we finally had to talk, this isn't good for our relationship.

What's the point in success if you're not happy? We're chasing money, we're on paper, now got a couple of million dollars that we've helped build this other company. And yet we're the most unhappy we've ever been. So change was to go in and quit and finally he did and that was the pivot where he went in told his business partners and they admitted they were unhappy too and so in that they said okay now we've at least been honest with each other we need to come up with a path and a strategy to get out so they put they okay, let's give ourselves six months.

And because they had made the change of actually discussing their unhappiness, I really did think, okay, this was different. And so they were just saying for the next six months, we're gonna try and actually sell the company and we're gonna build another company that's predicated on passion, desire and mission. Right, and that meant

we're gonna make these nutrition bars, even though there's a bazillion other nutrition bar brands out there, like that's gonna be our ticket. Yeah, I think there was like 1500 protein bars on the market and someone in the field actually said, there's 1500 bars, we need another bar like we need a hole in the head.

Right. So that was the feedback we got when we had the idea. So as the Greek wife, I was like, babe, how can I support you? You're on this new venture. I'm so happy for you. You actually seem excited because my mom and his mom were clinically obese. And so Tom's like, babe, I can get up every day and fight for my mom. Like I can fight for her, help on this health journey. And so that's why it was very important for him to really kind of go all in. So I said, okay, as your wife, how can I help? And so as they were trying to sell this tech company on the side,

they're like, okay, well, you're the only one that's free. Do you mind just shipping a couple of bars from the living room floor? And then it was like, well, you're free. Do you mind just like weighing some ingredients? Well, you're free. Do you mind just come? And so it just kept being like, well, you're free. you mind just like weighing some ingredients well you're free do you mind just come and so it just kept being like well you're free do you mind helping out because no one else was available and so in that in shipping bars for my living room floor having to figure out how i go to the post office and mail you know 100 boxes instead of four

every step of the way these tiny little things i had these these bumps and these hurdles and these obstacles and in those moments where the old Lisa would have been like, well, I don't know what I'm doing. I better not do it because I have no confidence. Because our house was up for collateral. In those moments, I was like, all right, you can actually not do it and lose your house, Lisa, or you can figure it out. Right. It's accidental entrepreneur. It was. It was so, yeah. It's sort of like, all right, well, what's the problem we have to solve today?

It's not like we're building a billion dollar company. It's like, I need to figure out how to get these bars wrapped in packaging and shipped to this certain place. At the same time, I'm interested in like, what happened to the whole movie thing? Like, so is this still like a vehicle to making movies? Like we're gonna do this bar company and we're just pushing the goalposts out the whole movie thing? Like, so is this still like a vehicle to making movies? Like we're gonna do this bar company and we're just pushing the goalposts out on the movie thing

or did that get supplanted by the kind of excitement and joy and level of engagement that came with like building a company that you cared about? Yeah, I think it was one of those moments where it was like, okay, we wanted to make movies as kids. We really loved the idea. We met met we definitely dreamt about it and we had both worked on movies sets when we first got married yeah it's not what you think it's gonna be it was not what you thought i had an actor throw a matchbox at me i mean like actually threw a matchbox at me and i was like

does this really happen like you kind of hear about it in hollywood but you don't actually think it's actually going to happen. And Tom had just an equally bad experience on a movie set. And so both of us were just like, we weren't willing to be disrespected. Like it's not the world we come from. And so I was like, I don't know if I want this dream of working on these film sets

where people can easily just disrespect you depending on what your title is. Like that just didn't feel right to me. And so that's where the crazy idea from tom was like well babe we should just make enough money so we can make our own movies and that way we hire our own team and no one can disrespect each other seemed like an easy um naive thought when we first got married but as we then started to chase the money and that evolved into absolute unhappiness after those eight years we just sat down and said what would actually bring us happiness like if it's not movies because right now to make movies especially how we were dreaming you know the big budget it was just it

wasn't feasible we'd have to keep chasing money and we saw where that led and so in that moment it was like what is actually going to was like, what is actually going to fill our heart? What is actually going to help us feel alive again? And it was in that discussion, which then led Tom to protein. So his business partners all had like their own selfish desires, we call it, right? One of the guys was obsessed with nutrition. And the other guy was just obsessed with working out. And so Tom was just like his own reason he could get behind it to fight for his mom. And when you have a mission like that

that is so tied to you when you've been chasing money for so long, he was just like, babe, this makes me feel good about myself. This makes me be able to face the things that I'm not good at and be able to push myself to be better. Yeah.

I wish myself to be better. Yeah. So you guys have been together a long time. About celebrate our 20 year wedding anniversary. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So I've been with my wife a little over 20 years at this point. So I know what that feels like. Yeah, it's amazing.

But in the story you just told, like what I hear and what kind of recurs throughout the book and every time I listen to you talk and Tom talk is a level of intentionality that you bring to your relationship. Like there's a very conscious, deliberate, persistent effort to come together and communicate very clearly, what are we doing?

What do you want out of life? What do I want out of life? What are we doing on a daily basis that's furthering that? Like there's an honesty. And I think when you're with somebody for 20 years, it's easy to kind of go on autopilot and every relationship ebbs and flows and has its peaks and valleys, et cetera.

But it feels like that's very top of mind. And like Tom says, like the most important thing in my life is my relationship with my wife and the kind of level of intentionality that you bring to that kind of communication, I think is really interesting and rare. So let's like pause on the timeline a little bit and like drill down on that.

I'd love to. So growing up, I just saw couples relate to each other and they seemed like, especially couples that had been together for a long time, there was a lot of contentment. I just saw in so many different couples and animosity and sliding like negative comments at each other.

Like little passive aggressive. Passive aggressive comments, yeah. And I just thought like, it didn't sit well with me, even as a kid, I was like, but don't you guys love each other? Like, don't you want to be nice to each other? Obviously being naive and just kind of having that like, you know, blanket statement in my head. But when Tom and I met, my parents were divorced and so were his.

And so we just had the honest conversations like neither of us want to end up like our parents. And what did that mean? And I kept hearing people saying, well, relationships shouldn't be work. And even that didn't sit well with me because I was like, hang on a minute. Do you think a business, if you want to grow a business, a successful business, do you think you have to spend time, energy on that business? I was like, yes. So then why wouldn't a relationship be that? Why don't you think of it like it is a business in the sense of, is it always thriving? And if it's not, what do you have to do differently?

And so that really set the stage for both of us to say, okay, we both know where we want to go. And now it's about figuring out how to get there because we want to be married for the rest of our lives, but happily married for the rest of our lives. So we just created over time, rules of engagement in our relationship. So for instance, number one, we never joke about divorce, ever.

We call it the D word in the family. It's like Voldemort. Like you can't say the word in the household because we don't even joke about it because we don't want that subliminal messaging to get in each other's minds. Non-negotiables. I have two non-negotiables that I said to him from the beginning.

I said, if you ever cheat on me or if you ever lay a finger on me, like abusively, I will be out the door. And just to set him up for success because I want the relationship to succeed. I said, babe, and just to be clear, there's no discussing it. If either of those two things happen,

I will pack my bags and I will be out the door before you have time to give me a reason. So just bear that in mind, right? Like it became this set each other up for success because we both want this relationship to work. Right, and how do you maintain that over time? Because it's one thing to set that straight upfront, but then as the years go by and life takes over

and you're busy and it's all about the businesses and the things that you're creating, it's pretty easy to let that slide as a priority. Not that you forget about it, but maybe it doesn't get the attention that it did in your first couple of years of marriage. Yes, you're so right. So we actually worried about that. So we sat down and said, okay, what's the responsibilities we own in this relationship? And what I mean by that is, I have a better radar that me and my husband aren't spending quality time together quicker than he does. Now, so just

like in a business, right, where you're like someone, I'm very good at logistics, my husband's not good at logistics at all. So when it comes to business, when there's something needed for logistics, he comes to me, there's no ego involved, there's no nothing, he's like, I know that you're better. So even if I disagree with you, you're the responsible party. And so we have that like in our relationship, who's the responsible party that when we start to feel like we are not connecting, who's better at it?

And so I said, I am. So we made an agreement. Okay, then I'm never gonna abuse it. I'm never gonna just do it for any reason. But if I do say, hey, babe, we need to spend time together. He will reciprocate. He won't push back. He won't say, what do babe, we need to spend time together, he will reciprocate. He won't push back.

He won't say, what do you mean? We just spent time together. He will trust that I'm the responsible party to do that. And so we've just come up with negotiations. It's like, okay, so if I say this, I need you to reciprocate because let's face it, if you do that and you keep getting someone saying, no, no, what do you mean? I know. Eventually, you just give up.

So I said to him, for me to be encouraged to do this, you need to reply with this phrase, with this way of thinking and thank me because I don't wanna feel like I'm fighting for our relationship and I don't wanna feel like you're not. So we came up with language that we use. We come up with ways to engage each other.

So for instance, I know Tom's terrible at his calendar. And so if I want a date night, I don't take it personally that he doesn't think about it. I just actually make sure that it gets done. So I go to his assistant. I say, hey, I need time with him at this time for this many hours, please make that happen. And then Tom will look at his calendar

and he will turn up with a smile on his face. But all of this doesn't happen by accident. And that was the key. And even in our relationship when it came to, because we have grown two businesses together, you can imagine that sometimes gets a bit messy. Sure. Yeah. I mean, I know what it's like to collaborate with my wife to build something professionally. And for the most part, it's a tremendous joy. And I think the sum of our parts, you know, exceeds our individual roles. And there's something really beautiful to be celebrated

and all of that. And then we kind of go into our separate corners and create our own roles. And there's something really beautiful to be celebrated and all of that. And then we kind of go into our separate corners and create our own stuff. And that's a cool thing too. But I know all too well how tricky it can be when you're working together and living together, where work bleeds into your personal life. There's no real boundaries.

Boundaries is a big theme in the book. Like how do you set those healthy boundaries? And then everything, all the communication becomes sort of transactional about, you know, shipping or whatever, you know, like whatever it is with your business. So it's like, you're out to dinner and you can't talk about anything other than the thing that you both care about, which is this business that you're trying to build. And before you know it, the relationship is withering on the vine. It's so true. And we felt that. And look, everything that I'm saying now is we've had all of those issues. And so every time we have that

moment where I'm like, oh my God, we go to dinner, all we do is talk about work. It's like, okay, wow, we've slipped back into this. What am I going to do differently next time? And so I do a lot of that. It's like, what are the things we're going to do when we start to see ourselves getting into an unhealthy pattern? Because I don't beat myself up or us up for falling into certain traps. I just pride myself on being the person that notices it and then acts in accordance. So for instance, Tom has a different threshold than I do on his work, how much he works. He works like 120 hours a week. We literally count over the last eight months. It's insane.

I don't, I can't, I have health issues. So here I am knowing I can't work that much. He does and I'm an equal business partner. So for me, it was really hard to not feel guilty about switching off. Or for him to feel resentful that you're not pulling your weight. Exactly, yes. So we have to talk about that. So it's like to feel resentful that you're not pulling your weight. Exactly, yes.

So we have to talk about that. So it's like, this is the life you want. I do not want to be working 120 hours. So we sit down and we have these discussions. And then it's respecting each other's perspectives, coming up with a strategy that makes sense for both of us, for the business and for our personal. So then it becomes, how do you maintain that?

Because it's one thing to say it, right? To sit down and have a discussion. It's like, okay, I hear you. And then to actually keep that going a month, two months, three months down the line. So for me, I get very tactical. I'm all about tactics. I can get in my own head.

So I came up with an idea. Have you ever been to a Brazilian restaurant? Where they do like the meat and you have like this little swivel thing. Yeah, you're talking about like photo to shower, a place like that. Yeah, yeah. In a past life.

Like I've been vegan for a long time. But yes, I have been to that place. Okay, so we go to this place and it's got this little thing that flips. So it's like, you want meat, you don't want meat. And it's just an indicator. So as I'm sitting there trying to think about what's an indicator to let Tom know

when I've stopped working, because he would come to me when I'm in my self-care time because of my health issues, I would want to decompress. And then he would walk in the room and tell me this business problem. And so I was like, this isn't going to work.

We started arguing. I started, you know, getting upset. You need to respect my boundaries. And he's like, but I don't know because I'm still in work mode. So I was like, what can I do? And I was like, oh, just like those Brazilian restaurants.

I was like, I need an indicator to show you, babe, when I'm working and when I'm not. So I came up with a goal where when I would be in my bedroom, I had the lamp. And so I was like, when the lamp is on, babe, it means that I'm in personal time. If the lamp isn't on, then it means you can still talk to me about work. So the very next day, he walks in the room. He's like, hey, babe, he sees the light and he's like, good to see you. And he walks back out of the room. Things like that. It helps you both navigate situations, respect each other's boundaries.

Because if you believe your partner wants something great for you, then you have to help them understand the boundaries and then help them when you set them, help them guide them into how they can respect them. Right, clearly defined, precise boundaries that are set prophylactically before the crisis moment. Correct.

And I think what happens with a lot of people is there's an expectation of mind reading that happens and then like an aggravation when the mind isn't properly read. But I think the real jujitsu move here is the ability to have those conversations in a non-reactive mode. Like it seems like you're both really good at that because everybody has their buttons installed by their histories and their, you know, their upbringings and stuff like that.

And you can say like, we need to be able to talk about these things, but you know, one phrase that comes out wrong and the other person set off and then before you know it, you're off to the races down the rabbit hole of some kind of fight. So clear communication, dispassionate communication and the ability to pause when agitated, because I'm sure you or him say something that is provocative to the ears of the other person,

the ability to sit with that and, you know, cogitate on it for a moment before responding. And it seems like you're both really good at that. Like that's a skill and I'm interested in whether that's an outgrowth of the work that you've done on the growth mindset stuff, or whether that's something that you learned

in a therapeutic context, because I think mastering that is really the key so that the other person can be heard, you can take that in. You can see it from their perspective. You're not just spontaneously reacting, looping some old behavior pattern, you know, that's gonna lead you down a dark alley.

Yeah, I mean, look, it's been falling on the floor, messing up, having massive arguments that last days and days and days, and then coming to these conclusions where we come up with a solution. So it was never, even now, it's usually messy at first. It's usually a problem arises, we start to have some friction. I sit back and I'm like, why do we keep having friction? And then it becomes an assessment. So the process is now quite easy for me in the sense of, oh, the red flag. Okay, I noticed this red flag. There's

some friction here. What does this friction mean? Why does it keep happening? What is the behavior that both of us keep showing up like this? And then with no judgment, sitting together, being able to be honest with each other, because we know that we've got the same goal in mind to have a happy, long lasting relationship. So we need to be honest with each other and then hearing each other out and then finding a solution. And the solution part sometimes is 10 different ideas. The lamp idea was like one of many where we just kept arguing. I was like, please, you need to respect my boundaries, you know? And so eventually it was like, oh, okay, here's a simple solution. And so we kind of rinse and repeat. It becomes like, notice the problem, come up with a solution.

And everything is with no judgment. Like that's super important to know that anytime that we argue or there's any friction, the very first thing I ask myself is, does he love you? Like that's literally the first question I ask. Because if he loves you and he wants good things for you, then what is happening right now is not deliberate. And so if you know it's not deliberate,

then to me, it allows me to go into that conversation emotionally sober, meaning that I don't, I'm not upset. I'm not frustrated. I'm not taking it personally. And then when you can enter conversations where you're emotionally sober, I think that that's where the best communication comes. And then the last part is making sure you just define words so that every time you come together, you're using the words that the person can hear, not the words that you think you mean and the other person doesn't hear them. Yeah, that's a really important one.

And that's a conversation that I have with my wife all the time. She'll say something and I'll get upset. And then I'll have to say, I know what you meant was this, what I heard was this because of how I interpret that. But sometimes it has to go sideways a little bit before you can write the ship.

And I think there's this idea that if you're in a healthy marriage, that's fruitful that you're never gonna fight. And I just think that that's ridiculous. My wife and I fight, we don't fight all the time, but we fight and our rule is like, we just stay in it until we get to the other side. Like no one storms out of the room.

No one gets the right to end it in the middle of something until we've sat in the discomfort and figured our way out of it to some kind of conclusion that we're both content with. And I love that because you guys have had that discussion and that agreement, me and Tom are the opposite. And that's really because of me, not because of him. He's like you, he's like, nope, we're not leaving.

We've got to solve this. We've got to do, and he will spend hours and hours and hours. And I'm just exhausted and emotionally drunk. Like, I'm just like, my emotions are all over the place. I can't feel straight. Sometimes you need to take a break, regroup, come back. Exactly. But you have to come back.

You can't just let it linger. Right, exactly. So that's all about having those discussions. So first of all, he thought it was disrespectful initially where he said, I can't believe you just walked off. And so it was about having the discussion of why I needed to walk away. I'm like, babe, I can get it very heated

and I know I can let my emotions take over. And so we both know that doesn't serve this situation. If we can agree, me being hotheaded and saying something that I'm gonna regret doesn't serve us. Okay, if we can agree on that, how about you just let me walk away? But trust me, it is to calm down. It is to emotionally regulate

so that I can come back and actually have the discussion that you wanna have because you don't necessarily wanna have an emotional discussion. You wanna have a very logical discussion. But I get emotional. I can't have a logical discussion.

I'm emotional. So instead of beating a logical discussion, I'm emotional. So instead of beating myself up or judging myself, we came up with, okay, maybe, so now he's like, babe, and I'm like, babe, I have to walk away. And he's like, okay, baby. And so I walk away. But then what you do when you walk away is also imperative to know, right?

You don't just wanna go and stew even more or call your friend who's like, yeah, I can't believe he said that to you. And she just like, or he just winds you up even more. So that's like the other part of like, what do you do when you actually walk away? For me, it's reminding myself how he feels about me. So, you know, your husband loves you. Okay. So that's number one. Do you think he deliberately tried to hurt you? Number two. And I just kind of like ask myself these questions to orient me back to the intention. You're also a much more heart-centered person

than I think Tom is. And I say that with great affection for Tom, but what's funny in the conversations that I've had with him is sort of a weird kind of curiosity that he has about spirituality because it's sort of confusing to him, I think, and he's somebody who really lives in his head and has been very successful problem-solving in his head. And I think is curious know, and he's somebody who really lives in his head and has been very successful problem solving in his head.

And I think is curious about what it would mean to move down towards the heart a little bit, but can't quite make that connection or is kind of struggling to do that. And you seem to be more comfortable in that place. I mean, a big part of the book is about intuition and stuff like that. And so is that a source of disagreement with you guys?

Like you just mentioned a fight where he's trying to solve it intellectually and sometimes you can't do it that way. And when you're coming from a very different place in terms of how to problem solve, sometimes that can cause problems. But also I think those polarities make for a very interesting and compelling marriage.

I mean, you know, my wife is much more heart centered and spiritual than I am and thinks I'm overly intellectualizing everything. Whereas like a lot of dudes think I'm too much on the spiritual side. So anyway. It's very true and here's the thing again, it's like, that's the man that I married.

I love him for it and I know how big his heart is. I mean, you know, he has like a lot of emotional moments he just when we're in these moments of discussion or arguments he doesn't have the emotion and so that has been a hurdle that we've had to you know overcome in that neither of us are right or wrong right it's just how do we communicate though in those moments where i am absolutely talking from the heart and he's very intellectual and I perceive his intellectual, if that's even a word, I perceive that to be heartless and I used to. And so what I realized was, oh, that was just how he processes things. And when I come to him emotional, he goes into fix it mode. And like I've heard a lot of my

friends and couples do, right? Where the female usually wants to be heard and the guy normally wants to fix it. That's the paradigm. Yeah. And so what we said is like, okay, the truth is neither of us are right or wrong. So instead of judging each other, be like, I can't believe you don't want to hear me out. And it's just like, why? It's not that I'm right. It's just not what I need right now. And so how as a couple, do you maneuver through that? And so for us, it was agreeing to the process of if I come to him emotional,

that he has the responsibility to stop me and say, baby, do you need me to listen or do you need me to fix it? And because I'm too emotional, I can't even think about asking him myself that question. So he is the responsible party to stop me, ask that. It actually pauses me and I go, hmm, let me think. I need you to just listen. And so his entire demeanor changes. He sits down, he softens, he puts his hand on me because I've told him what I need. In those moments, I need you to touch my knee. Again, we said earlier, right? They're not mind readers. So what do you need in those moments that your partner can be there for you? You have

to articulate them. And so my husband used to want to like give me a big hug and like stroke my back. I'm like, it's too much. I just need you to put your hand on my knee. And so now that's exactly what he does. And so I'm feeling the love that he's trying to give and he's able to show up for me and then vice versa. When he's feeling, when he's frustrated, he doesn't want me to like, or if he feels like he's on his knees, like he's really been crushed by something. He doesn't want me to get down on my knees with him. He wants me to metaphorically reach out my hand

and pull him back up. And so knowing that he doesn't want that, when he's forced to his knees, I know how to act and I know what to say to him. That is what he needs in that moment. So it allows me to show up for him. Yeah, that's great advice. I mean, it all tracks back to having

a level of communication where all of that is made clear in a safe place so that there is an understanding. Yeah, exactly. So even when it comes to triggers, I'm very open with my triggers. And so I'll say to him, babe, you've just triggered me,

but now here's the thing. I think just because he's triggered me, it's not on him to solve the trigger. It's on me. And so this has been a recent thing that we've been doing actually over the last like year, year and a half. I've been more comfortable admitting my triggers.

I've been more comfortable talking to him about them. And then in those moments, I've said to him, I recognize this as me and I'm working through it. Like I'm actually less triggered now than I used to be, but I'm not there yet. And so while I'm still working on my triggers, do you mind just helping not use that word?

This is a me thing, but you're really helping me. And now it becomes almost setting boundaries with respect and helping each other get over the problems that they're having. And so even though that word for him, he's like, he may throw it out left, right and center and not realize, I will just articulate him, please don't use that word.

And if he does, I'll just say, look, babe, I know you didn't mean to, but you just use that word. It really is triggering me right now. If you don't mind just holding off. And he's like, okay, well, it's a habit. And I said, I totally get it. Maybe try and use this word instead. And if he still gets it wrong, I still encourage him.

That's the thing. It's like, babe, I really do see you trying. You know, I'll go to see him say the word and then like stop himself and so you want to encourage your partner and so that's kind of the nuances of how we communicate um again having certain words like the word important i use that word maybe three times a year so if i said to tom right now if i got on my phone i was like hey babe it's important that you literally get in the car right now and you drive to rich rolls he wouldn't ask why. He would leave the meeting, drop everything and jump in the car and get here. And part of that is because you don't

cry wolf with it. Exactly. 100%. That is so imperative. You don't cry wolf with it. And you really want to show up for your partner. You hope that your partner wants to show up for you. So having those levels of communication, especially when you work together, because having communication on when you're talking to them as a business partner versus a spouse is actually very different. So even with me calling him, like right now, if I called him and he was in a meeting, he won't answer my first call. If I called him again, he was in a meeting, he won't answer my second call because he's like, it's a business thing, I'm busy. If I call him a third time, he answers.

Now, the reason why is the third time means I'm calling you as my wife and I need you. And that's understood. And that is completely understood. Now, the funny thing is, this is one of those stories or moments where I called him, I was, do you wanna actually, if I share an intimate story?

So I've had a lot of gut issues and it was early days and I was hiding it from everybody Tom obviously knew. And I was in the middle of a photo shoot and my gut issues would literally get me to the point where I couldn't breathe. I can't stand up. And it happened in the middle of a photo shoot. So I ran upstairs in my house,

fell to my knees on the floor, clutching my stomach. And I was like, I need my husband. I need my husband. And so I call him once. I know he's not going to answer. I call him twice. I know he's not going to answer. I call him a third time and he doesn't answer.

And I'm like, we've had this agreement. I can't believe he doesn't answer. So I'm on my knees saying, oh my God, I need my husband. I need my husband. And in that moment, I was like, well, I can't stay on the floor. And then I realized, oh my God, I don't need him. I want him, but I don't need him. And in that moment, I was like, Lisa, you're your own hero. Get the F up and be the hero of your own life. Now, I did get up and that was the moment that I realized I would turn to my husband because I felt

like I was weak without him. And that was the moment that I realized I'm actually really strong and I can stand next to him. Now in that story at the end, Tom came running to me because he saw the three missed calls and he was so horrified because his identity is of the husband that shows up. And even to this day, Rich, I wrote that story in my book. And when he read it, he burst into tears.

And he said, I can't believe I wasn't there for you. That's how much our agreements mean to us. And obviously we've had to work through it, but I'm like, babe, that was one of the most beautiful moments. I'm glad you didn't answer the phone because it taught me what I was made of. And I choose you, I don't need you.

And that's actually even more beautiful. But even today, it still stings him. Well, I think you have to be allowed to fall in order to find your strength, right? Like if there's always a net to pick you up, then you're always on some level dependent on something external. Yeah, exactly.

You never really developed the facility to grow into your own power. So it was meant to be, right? It was, yeah. But he still has that emotional thing because he's like, we've agreed on this. Pinky swore, we said we would always do this. And I was like, but baby,

it allowed me to see what I was made of. And that's so important to me to who I am today that that story is stuck with me so much that I don't want him to take it away from me, but we've had to talk through it because I still know that it stings him. Do you find, well, let me say this. I have found that when I'm under duress

or my wife and I are under duress financially, professionally, or there's a lot going on or things aren't going great. That is sort of a reminder to me to double down on a lot of tools that we've developed to foster our relationship and grow closer. And we survived like a pretty gnarly period of time of financial dismantling that I think would have exploded

most relationships. But in fact, it brought us closer. But my weakness is that when everything's good, I'll take the foot off the gas, right? So success can create a laziness or a level of kind of entitlement. And that's kind of what's up for us right now. It's like, everything's going really good.

And I've got this thing, my wife has another thing. And without a lot of conscious intentionality, we can be ships in the night. And I need to be reminded, like, that's a recipe for disaster. Like we need to make sure that, you know, and in our relationship, my wife is also the one who's like, hey, listen, we need to make sure that, you know, and in our relationship, my wife is also the one who's like, hey, listen, we need to get together,

you know, like this can't go on like this forever or we're gonna have a problem. We don't have a problem right now, but if we wanna not have a problem, we need to prophylactically like deal with this now. And I rely on her for that messaging because I will be the guy who's just, everything's good. Right. We don't have to, what's, you know.

And I'll do that in sobriety as well. So my question I guess is, now that you guys are like really successful, does it become more difficult to work on these things because externally everything looks great or, because it doesn't strike me like that. It feels like you're still very intentional about staying on top of all of this stuff,

regardless of what's going on, you know, externally. Yeah, I really am. And I wrote about this in my book where the phrase, this too shall pass. I used to use that as a way to get me out of the dark days when I wasn't feeling great, when something wasn't going great. Okay, Lisa, don't worry.

You're not going to stay here forever. This too shall pass. And then I actually realized the most beautiful thing. It also applies to the amazing days. Like we kind of think that when something's great, that's our baseline. So we're like, oh, we're all good. And I actually love the beauty in thinking,

well, this too shall pass. So let me, and it's not to like bring fear into your life. It's to actually go, let me just enjoy it. Let me pay attention. Let me make sure that i'm actually soaking this in because this isn't going to be the way all the time and so i kind of love the ebb and flow because on the bad days it allows you to remember that it won't always stay like that and it can be beautiful and then on the beautiful days reminding yourself that you know what you may actually be in rocky waters in your relationship in a month or two so actually embrace right now take it in soak it in enjoy it and then you know move on but

that's very it is intentional um and i think to me it is all about making sure you're always speaking each other's language no matter how busy no matter how good things are or how bad things are always speak in that language so knowing your love language for me with tom it is acts of service and because he is so busy and that's changed over time it never used to be that but now over the last eight months he's been working 120 hours a week um i need it and then so i just lean into it it's like hey i really need you to you know show me with your time and so because he could do you know send me me with your time. And so, cause he could do, you know, send me a lovely text, but it's not the language that I need right now. And so being open with each other in so many moments is going to be important and then always showing up. So even

on the great days, he boils my kettle for me so that when I wake up in the morning, it's, I can have a cup of tea or coffee. He does that when it's really bad and things aren't going great in our relationship or in our business. And he does it on the amazing day. So making sure that you're always kind of thinking of each other no matter what and doing these little things.

But these little things you have to discuss because if you don't know what they are, you're not able to do them. So back to Quest, you're in the shipping department. Yes. You tell the story of like the bars spilling all over the place and having to solve all of these little problems

and figuring out as the company grew and grew very quickly, like how to master at least this one kind of aspect of the overall business and then having to pivot into the media and kind of marketing side of things and the intimidation, the lack of confidence, the sort of, all right, getting thrown in

and sink or swim sort of situation, which brings up the broader conversation and theme of the book and title of the book, like radical confidence. Like what does that mean? What is the difference between confidence and radical confidence? How does this fit in with growth mindset?

Like help me decode this language a little bit. Yeah, absolutely. So confidence to me was like how you feel about yourself. So people want to feel great before they start anything. I was the same as, oh, I'm gonna start my YouTube channel once I have the confidence. And so what ends up happening is people don't actually take action because they're waiting for the confidence to come and i joke about it in the book but it's like you know like if you want to glute to still

you won't go to the gym do a couple of reps and think that you're all done right it's kind of like with confidence it's like you have to keep practicing it takes takes an action. Exactly. And so the very first part that I say is, okay, identify what you want confidence in to do what with the confidence, because we're all focusing on feeling good, but actually what do you want to achieve? Usually people will say, I want confidence to tell my boss that I want to pay rise. I want the confidence to tell my partner in my relationship, I'm not happy. I want the confidence to tell my partner in my relationship I'm not happy. I want the confidence to tell my parents I no longer want to study biochemistry and I want to be a stand-up comedian. So it's usually something to do something with. And I'm like,

great, now you know the end goal. Now you've identified the end goal. Now you need to come up with a set of tools, stepping stones to get to that goal because the confidence part will come over time it will come with action it will come with repetition it will come with gaining competence the confidence is the byproduct and so if we can stop focusing on the confidence and have radical confidence which to me means you have insecurities you have doubts in yourself you actually probably are not equipped for what you're about to do but you still show up and do it anyway now i don't mean blindly believing in yourself i don't mean blindly saying ah forget the fear and do it anyway no no no when you've got the fear you need to me i needed stepping stones that were binary okay i wake up today

did i do this yes or no so some people instance, let's take the gym, working out, fitness. I know my mom didn't have the confidence to even walk in the gym. Okay, she wanted to lose weight. She wanted to be healthy, but she didn't have the confidence. She didn't believe in herself. She didn't think she was worthy enough.

So now you have someone that in her 70s still says losing weight wasn't possible because she was waiting for the confidence to then feel good about herself to go in the gym and it became this like you know vicious cycle yeah so instead of just saying okay we'll just go to the gym fill the fear and do it anyway come up with the steps stepping process so you want confidence to feel good about yourself to go to the gym okay the end goal is the gym now what do you do? Make it binary. Tomorrow, I put my shoes by my bed. That's it. Did you do it? Yes or no? And now you create this plan, this action plan around the thing that you're trying

to do so that every day you don't allow your negative mindset, the voice in your head that's saying you're not worthy, you're not good enough. You don't let it take over. You don't want it to go into autopilot. And that's what I was doing for eight years my entire life was autopilot because every time i wanted to do something that mindset was coming in saying well you don't have the confidence you're not good enough who do you think you are and at quest because i we were growing so quickly we grew at 57 000 percent and so i didn't have the luxury to a slow down i didn't have the luxury because our house was on the line i didn't have the luxury to stop and say i don't know how and i don't have the luxury to A, slow down. I didn't have the luxury because our house was on the line. I didn't have the luxury to just stop and say, I don't know how. And I don't have the confidence to do that.

So when I found myself walking into a boardroom where let's say there's 10 guys with business, way more business experience than me, the insecurity comes flooding, right? That I don't have the confidence to walk into the room. The imposter syndrome comes front and center. Now the question is, how on earth do you still walk in the room. The imposter syndrome comes front and center. Now the question is, how on earth do you still walk in the room?

What do you do? How do you know that actually, you know what? I don't have as much experience than everyone in the room. It's not even like I'm just like putting myself down. I actually don't have the experience that everyone else does in this room. So how on earth do I keep showing up if I don't have the confidence?

That's what radical confidence is. And so what are those tools? Like I'm imagining walking into that boardroom, I keep showing up if I don't have the confidence. That's what radical confidence is. And so what are those tools? Like I'm imagining walking into that boardroom, feeling insecure, you have a couple of choices. You can act as if and put on a front and pretend that you're on their level, which is very transparent.

Or there's the opportunity to acknowledge to yourself, like, hey, I'm like, maybe not at this level yet. I still have to walk into this room. Like, how do I manage that? And you can come in and say, listen, this is who I am. I'm not like, I don't have your experience, but I'm here. That requires a level of self-esteem as well, to be able to say that, to admit that weakness.

And part of your kind of process here is about like acknowledging your own weaknesses rather than repressing them or pretending they don't exist. It's like, bring them to the surface, be in relationship with them so you understand what they are, which gives you an opportunity to then work on them and kind of get to the other side. Yeah, exactly.

And to your point, there's no way I would have had the other side. Yeah, exactly. And to your point, there's no way I would have had the guts to tell people, I'm not at your level yet. Like the instinct is to just pretend, like go in, pretend that you know what you're doing. It's like, but that's just too crippling sometimes. And so I actually took this from my husband, have the identity of the learner.

So now if you've got the identity of the learner, instead of being the identity of, I know what I'm doing, I've got this, I'm the head of shipping, I'm Tom's wife, I'm the co-founder. That didn't help. Just because I was the co-founder of a company didn't mean that I actually knew what I was doing

or was confident to walk into a boardroom. So if you adopt the identity of the learner, now when you walk into a boardroom, how do you think I feel? I'm like, oh, I'm gonna learn in this room. When I go into a situation where someone's saying something that I don't know, I was like, oh, I'm going to learn in this room. When I go into a situation where someone's saying something that I don't know, I was like, oh, please explain because I don't understand that. But now as a learner, I thrive off learning. Now, if I fall to my knees

and I make a mistake or a catastrophic mistake, as the learner, I don't take that as a dent to my ego. I just say, oh my God, great. Now I can learn from this failure. That's the core of the growth mindset, which is to approach every situation and outcome as a positive, because if you succeed, then you can learn from how you got to that place. If you fail, you can deconstruct what went wrong and it's all good either way. Exactly.

Which takes all of that kind of pressure out of the whole thing. Exactly. But it requires you to really strip your ego away out of the whole thing as well. Yes, and that's- That's tricky. That is super tricky

because my ego used to steer everything. And so there was actually one day where Tom had heard that I was getting people reaching out asking me to do speaking gigs. And I just kept saying, I was like, I'm so petrified. So why would I ever do that? That looks like so heart attack inducing. Like I've seen Tom do, I've seen incredible, like just amazing speakers. And I was just like, that's I ever do that? That looks like so heart attack inducing. Like I've seen Tom do it.

I've seen incredible, like just amazing speakers. And I was just like, that's not me. I'm terrible. And so I kept saying no. So one day Tom being, you know, very honest with me comes to me and he's like, so babe, just want to point out that right now you say your goal is impact, but you actually don't right now.

You're not acting in accordance because you keep saying no to these speaking gigs. No pressure, have the life you want. But as your husband, as your committed partner, we trust each other to be honest with each other. So he just said, right now, your actions are not aligning with your goals. So I actually had to sit back and I was like, okay, my goal is impact. I do understand that getting on stage is going to impact people. Okay, yes. Why on earth am I saying no? It's the ego. The ego doesn't want to be embarrassed, right? The voice in my head is saying, Lisa, people are going to laugh at you.

Lisa, you're not as good as Tom. Like, they're to protect me, right? It's like, don't do it, don't do it. For the love of God, don't do it. And so in that moment, I was like, oh, all I have to do now with no judgment is decide what's more important to me, my ego or my goals. And if I can just decide, it starts with a decision.

I'm not saying it's easy, it just starts with a decision. If I decided, which I did, I was like, my goals are my goals. And if I can just decide, it starts with a decision. I'm not saying it's easy, it just starts with a decision. If I decided, which I did, I was like, my goals are more important. I was like, great, now at least I've made the decision. How on earth do I public speak? Because again, it's one thing saying you're going to do it and another thing to actually do it. So I sat back and I came up with a plan. And the plan was, the strategy was listen to your negative voice because the negative voice used to hold me back. But I was like, what if, just like your husband, he's trying to warn you something, he's trying to give you a signal.

So I sat back and I said, what is it trying to warn me? Okay, just listen to it. It's saying like, oh my God, you're so fearful, you can't even say yes. So I was like, okay, I can't even say yes to a speaking gig. How do I overcome that?

Oh, hang on. They actually reach out to my team first and it's my team that tell me. So I'm just gonna tell my team next time just say yes don't check with me okay great now i've overcome that fear what's the next thing that you're the voice in your head is saying you're not as good as tom you're gonna go on stage lisa you're gonna bomb all right so maybe she's right this critic in my head maybe she's right maybe she can coach me so it's like all right turn the critic into a coach i can do that what is she saying get prepared that's what she's right maybe she can coach me so it's like all right turn the critic into a coach i can do that what is she saying get prepared that's what she's saying so i'm like oh she wants me

to prepare okay great so now i just lay out how am i going to prepare what does that look like because the voice in my head is very scared so number one i'm going to have someone coach me on how to do a speaking gig because i've never done it before who do i know my husband great let me book time with him. Number two, how am I going to read it out loud? Okay, I'm going to read it to him. That's one person. Then I'm going to read it to my team.

That's 20 people. And I literally sat there and wrote a game plan so that every time I woke up the next day, I was like, what do I do today? It wasn't how do I feel? It was what do I do? And so that was how I started to process the fear, not listening to it,

telling my ego to calm the hell down and then still show up. Yeah, it's a function of preparation, but self-esteem being the driver of confidence and self-esteem being driven by performing esteemable acts on behalf of others and yourself, the path really is setting up these stepping stones along the way such that when you get to that stage, or you're gonna drop in on that wave, or you're gonna, whatever it is, walk into the gym, you've already done enough legwork in lower stakes environments that that next step

to the thing that once scared you doesn't feel as intimidating as it once was. So practicing your speech in the mirror, sharing it with a friend, being open to feedback, doing it in front of two people and then three people, and then memorizing it and then doing it to a camera and then having the gall to watch yourself on, you know, like all of those things are very low stakes,

but are so important in terms of the ramp up. So that way it's not like, oh, I'm going from nothing to walking on this TEDx stage, right? Like there's a whole battery of interim stages that prepare you. Yeah, exactly. And then even just, you said the walking on the stage,

that was so petrifying to me because even with all the preparation, I was like, how do you actually walk on stage? Like when you're as scared as I was, I was like, I may be prepared, but I worried as soon as I got to the steps and I saw the audience, I would freeze. So again, I allowed the voice in my head to talk and say, Lisa, you don't want to freeze. Like, oh my God, people will laugh at you. And I was like, okay, what tools do my head to talk and say, Lisa, you don't want to freeze. Like, oh my God, people will laugh at you. And I was like, okay, what tools do I have to my ability that I can use to help me get on stage? Because to me, my goal wasn't to be amazing on stage.

It was like, just actually do it. You said that you were going to and do it. That becomes the self-esteem part, right? It's like I was holding my self-esteem to, am I the person that shows up? And so even if I bomb, at least I didn't. That's why I kept telling myself, but how on earth do I just show up on stage?

And so I just literally sat there and I was like, okay, what are the tools that I can use to help encourage me? And I thought about the kids who, do you have kids? Did you ever give them a cape? When they were kids, young? No, capes weren't my kids. Okay, have you ever given them a cape? When they were kids, young? No, capes weren't my kids.

Okay. Have you ever given a cape to a kid and seen what they do? Sure, I have seen that, of course. Okay. They put their fist in the air, right? And they like act like Superman or like I love Wonder Woman. And I was like, the power of clothes,

the power of something like that to a kid takes them from being the kid to then actually them believing they're a superhero so why don't we do that as adults it's such a great like mind hack and so i was like what could that be for me and so i love wonder woman and so it's like oh what if i got a wonder woman necklace so you see it here yeah yeah and so what i started to do is like okay i've got my little item that is like the self signaling part. But I also know that you need to create a habit. So every time I put it on, I was like, well, how do I

reinforce that I feel like Wonder Woman when I put it on. So I came up with a strategy that for about a month, because they say 30 days is what you have to do to create a habit. So I kept putting on every day for 30 days. And every day I put it on, I was like, you're a badass like Wonder Woman, you're a badass like Wonder Woman. You're a badass like Wonder Woman. And so what I was doing was repeating that enough that I was creating a habit. So that before I got on stage, I put on my Wonder Woman necklace, I have my hair braided,

I have on these big watch and cuffs and stuff. That watch is gigantic, by the way. I wish it's that way on your wrist. People are just like that watch is wearing you yeah um but all of these things are very deliberate i don't do this by accident because i can get in my own head and so i literally think of ways that i can overcome the way that i naturally am i don't beat myself up for having the negative thoughts i don't beat myself up fearing going on stage i just don't allow that to stop me. Yeah. It reminds me of this idea of the alter ego, like David Goggins becomes Goggins

or James Lawrence becomes the Iron Cowboy. And it's a way of putting on that sort of superhero costume in whatever way, shape or form serves you. It's also the idea that this guy, Todd Herman, who's been on my podcast before, wrote a whole book about this, the alter ego effect. He probably- I haven't actually read it, but I know of him. Yeah. I mean, that's like right up the alley of exactly what you're talking about, which is creating a little bit of distance between your fear and what you're trying to achieve by

armoring yourself in something that allows you to kind of transcend those insecurities and step into something greater. Yeah, I love that. And also, I actually feel a chemical change. Like I start to feel more powerful as I like kind of suit up as I do my hair as I put my jewelry on. And so that power of like having these symbols, I also find the beauty in the reverse. So some days I'm, you know, going really hard for the business. It's a grind. It's you're facing problems all day, every day. And you're having people, you know, and just feel overwhelmed. In those moments, I feel very hard. Like I can feel myself toughen and I've got gut issues. And so I recognize having massive like

anxiety or like stressful days isn't good for my health. And so what tools am I going to use in moments of that? And so usually it's like, I'll get a hug from my husband. He normally does it. The problem is sometimes when you're that, you know, elevated in like emotion or you're angry or you're just like really hard that day, a hug isn't something that you need.

And so I was like, oh, what if I do the opposite? What if I undo myself? So what if I undo my braids, my jewelry, put on something that makes me feel soft. So I have these surprise, surprise, Wonder Woman fluffy pajamas. And I unwind when I'm trying to change the chemicals in my body, I know what I can reach for.

So I take off the jewelry, I take down the hair and then I put on something soft that makes me feel soft so that I can then embody the softness and then I can go get the hug from my husband and then usually eat my dinner. But I won't eat my dinner if I'm tired and hard. So I need those strategies in order to help me pivot and take care of myself.

And the gut issues are like some form of dysbiosis. Like what is the diagnosis there? There's a whole journey there. Yeah, it was. So 10 years as Quest was growing, my identity was tied to being the person that always showed up. So I was so fearful of slipping backwards

into being a supportive wife stay at home. And because I loved what I was doing at Quest, I was just on the grind every day. And I thought back then, especially back then, I think it was definitely like, how many hours do you work? Or how many hours do you work? It was like, the pride was in the amount of hard work you do. And so at the time, I thought of myself as the more hours I put in, the more validation I would get, the more pats on the back I would get from other people because I didn't feel good about myself. So I was thriving off the validation I was getting from other people so for 10 years

I did I stopped all of my draw as like my hobby with art I stopped all of that I stopped all of my self-care I was very negative on myself very hard on myself and I thought sleep was the last thing people needed I also had a very unhealthy relationship growing up with food. I saw my mom borderline anorexic and then turned into clinically obese. And so I had a very unhealthy relationship with food. So you put all that together, I started getting sick a lot. I didn't realize 70% of your immune system is carried in your gut. So I was not replenishing my gut with any fats or carbs

because I thought those were bad. Doctors were giving me antibiotics. And it got to the point where I was taking antibiotics probably four to five times a year. Wow. Of course, just making it worse and worse. You're just basically annihilating your whole microbiome every time you do that. Everything. And I was doing that probably, you know, started off with an unhealthy relationship with food for like, let's say, period of 15 years. and it became so cliche and it ended up being the best thing that ever happened to me but as we're building quest tom and i used to take drives around beverly hills in our really crappy car and it was like the moments

where we would dream when things were getting very hard we would dream about you know when quest got successful what we would do and it would really help us get over the hard days flash forward quest becomes a billion dollar company we you know um we actually get to buy what we were doing. It would really help us get over the hard days. Flash forward, Quest becomes a billion dollar company. We, you know, we actually get to buy the house in Beverly Hills. It's like the dream

freaking come true. And I'd always dreamt, I'm a 90s girl. I love hip hop. So I'd always said to Tom, I really wanted a waterfall in our house so I could twerk to it

with a bottle of champagne and do a 90s hip hop video for him. And so that was like the fun dream that we always had. Cut to, we actually get the house, we actually get the waterfall

and I have a bottle of Dom Perignon in my hand. As cliche as it sounds, in that moment, I took a swig of champagne. Like that, my gut felt like it erupted. That was six years ago. I'm still suffering. So just to give context, the day, the actual day. And why I say that's the most beautiful thing

is it just taught me success is nothing if you don't have your health. And thankfully, I actually learned that very early on in my success. And so that was very much a learning lesson for me of how to take care of myself and then how to make sure that that is the most important thing that I focus on.

Because throughout Quest, I wasn't focusing on the self-care part of it. And so it was definitely a mix. And then hindsight, it was the fact that I had leaky gut, I had SIBO. So SIBO was so catastrophic to me, so intense. I couldn't stand up for longer than five minutes at a time. My gut had actually protruded out as you could see it like it was almost like the reverse pregnancy. And that was for at least a year, I could only eat about four ingredients. I couldn't even put pepper on my food. That's how bad I got. I was about 20 pounds lighter than you see me now. Hair had fallen out,

nails were brittle. It was really bad, it was really hard. And so in all of that, it definitely put everything into perspective very early on in my life. And how did you see yourself to the other side? Like you're doing okay now, yeah? Like you're not having flare ups? I do every so often.

So I realize if I work too much, I do. If I'm stressed too much i do if i'm not paying attention to my food i still have to ask restaurants what oils they use because i can't have blended oils um i still kind of do a loose SIBO diet because anytime i have things like onion and garlic it just it just does a little flare up um and so it has been an incredible journey and an improvement. But in this story as well, the beauty in it is that for the first year, I kept blaming the doctors. It was the doctor's fault. They shouldn't have given me antibiotics.

And, you know, so because I was blaming the doctors, I was looking to them just to help me. And so I was like, oh, what pill should I take? What diet should I do? I literally was looking for them. And every time they made a suggestion suggestion I would just blindly follow them and what I realized over time in that story that I told earlier about being falling to the floor realizing I am my own hero why do I wait for other people to save me if I actually flip that mentality and I actually said to myself Lisa you can save yourself what What would that look like? Just ask yourself the question, what would that look like? And with my gut and health, I started to realize I had given my power away. I was blaming the

doctors. And in truth, Rich, I was the one that swallowed the antibiotics. I was the one that when the doctor said, you know, we probably shouldn't give you this many antibiotics. Not once did I ask why. Not once did I go home and Google the negative side of taking too many antibiotics. So if I could take ownership over that, the beautiful thing is now I've taken my power back and I can now fix myself. Right, you have agency in that context,

which brings up this idea or this conflict or tension between intuition, like my body is telling me that I should do this versus expert advice or appeal to authority. Like I'm just going to give up my agency. These doctors know best, I'm gonna follow them, which you did for a while. But at some point there's a validation of the intuition

that you have about what's right for yourself. And I think trying to find that balance between the two, like we should listen to our doctors. They probably know more than what we know about like this thing that I'm suffering from. At the same time, we don't wanna mute. The body doesn't lie. It's giving us signals all the time.

How do you find that balance to know what's in your best interest? It's so true. Cause that's a really good point. Thank you for saying that, because I don't think that we should just not listen to experts. It's like, look, experts are experts for a reason.

Right, well, we're in a period of time right now where it's very fashionable to not listen to experts. Yeah, it is. I have the duality, and most of the things that I do and say, it's like it's a bit of both. It's like, listen to the expert, hear them out, and then assess whether that actually sits right with you. If it doesn't, why not? Like ask yourself the questions.

I blindly follow doctors. So that's where I go taking the expert's advice, listening to it, maybe even trying it out. So you know what, this doesn't feel right, but maybe I'll give it a shot. I'll give it a shot for two days and then just assess. But in that, because I was so blindly following it, I realized that didn't work. And so what I did is take, I took full ownership and I said, okay, if this is all my fault, quote unquote, if I am my own hero, if I can actually change this, what would it look like? And I just started saying, take inventory. So for instance, I was like, I was sleeping like 10 hours and I was waking up exhausted. And so the doctors were like, oh, you're probably fine, you know, with no real advice.

So I'm like, okay, what would full ownership look like here? It would be assess your own sleep patterns. So I bought an Oura ring. I also bought one of those continuous glucose monitors. And I just took an assessment of what I ate that day, what time I ate, what my bowel movement was like, what my glucose levels were when I ate that day, what time I ate, what my bowel movement was like, what my glucose levels were when I ate, what it was when I didn't eat, what it was like when I was sleeping, what I started to notice was there was a correlation between when I was waking up in the

middle of the night, my aura, which I didn't realize I was waking up. I was just like losing a lot of REM sleep. I could notice a correlation between that and my blood sugar levels dropping. And so in the middle of the night I was Dropping to like 40 and so I was like, oh, okay. Well that probably explains why I'm tired What can I do differently and I would just take inventory and it's like, okay Lisa What you're gonna do is you're gonna maybe have some carbs later on in the evening. Does that make a difference? All right, Lisa, you're gonna actually people say fasting so blindly listening to everyone saying fasting Try it yourself do one hour before bed then do two hours before bed, then do three hours and actually see how you feel.

And in that assessment, I was listening to my intuition. I was testing it out. I was still listening to experts, but then I was making the conclusions for myself. And then in that, I realized, oh, three hours for me was the magical time. You eat three hours before bed. It gives you time for your body to digest. You don't wake up with a stomach upset, but you also don't have crashes in the middle of the night. And that was all me figuring it out because I took the time, I took the ownership,

and then I just took the judgment away. That's interesting. So your fasted blood glucose would go down to 40 in the middle of the night. And the inference is that that was damaging your body's ability to get into the deep sleep state. Yeah. Yeah.

It's super interesting. You know, I've played around, I wear a whoop and I have continuous glucose monitor as well. And it is interesting the relationship between sleep and your body's ability to metabolize glucose. Yeah, look, I didn't even realize. And also like even the opposite, I was eating right before bed.

Cause I was like, well, at least you got gut issues. You can't not feed your gut. Like it was, you know, and then I was like, I was waking up with the worst stomach pains. And then it was like, why am I waking up with the worst stomach pains? And then I would realize my body didn't have time to digest its food.

So it was just like sitting heavy in my gut. So while my husband can literally eat a donut before he goes to bed and he's fine, you know, like that would have a massive different impact on me. And so when you also hear about experts, it's like, well, where are they coming from? And whose studies are they doing? And even just being a female, that's like the new thing that I'm figuring out is that I did ketogenics and keto worked wonders for me for a short period of time. But my husband can do keto diet for a year

and he's great. And what I realized was that I was blindly listening to experts and studies without actually even looking myself to see where the study's done on women. Because it all makes a difference with a female cycle and all of that sort of thing. So yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

I like the ownership that you took over the whole thing though. Thank you. The other thing we got to touch on is the people pleasing thing. This is something that I've battled with for a long time. I was living my life in a certain way for many years as a result of my, you know, basic inability

to honor myself in some regard or to look inward enough to know what it would look like if I was to honor myself. And you have your version of that story. You've transcended that pattern. But I think this is something that affects a lot of people on a spectrum. And I think there's a lot of people who aren't even aware

that they're sort of relinquishing their agency over their own life because they're in a situation where that's just sort of expected in terms of like how you live your life, which is kind of the situation you were in earlier on. It's such a tricky conversation. You're right. Like in the sense of, I actually really care about people. And so yes, do I want to please people? Yes. Do I want to please my husband? Yes. And so it was very hard for me to

think through and write out what that can look like. Cause I don't think it's one or the other. I don't think it's like, well, you shouldn't people please and do you and don't care what other people it's like that didn't sit well with me, but I do care. So how do I be the person that still really cares, but doesn't allow that to dictate how I show up and what I do? Because that was the problem with me for those eight years where I was staying at home. It's like, I wanted to please my husband. I wanted to be a good Greek wife, you know, that my dad was proud of.

But it held me where I was because I started to, I have my identity built around the people pleasing part of it so now if I stop doing it who was I and so I think that that is can be really crippling for a lot of people and it makes you act and show up in ways that don't actually align with who you want to be and so for me it was like a fine line between okay I really do want to please my husband. I want him to be happy. But where does it go to them now become detrimental to who I want to be?

And the transition where I went from being this supportive wife that was taking care of every need that he had into being an entrepreneur and an equal business partner, we had to talk about that because I was so trying to do both, right? You want to be there for the person and you want to please them and you want to make them happy and you want to show up in your business. And I don't know about how you felt, but it was like, I couldn't do both well at all or either well at all. Well, first of all, you have to have some recognition that you're not living in alignment with the person you wanna be. So there's that piece.

And then there's the piece of figuring out how to communicate. Well, I think what, let me back up. I think when you're in that state, there's not a lot of self-reflection, right? Because you're like, you're pleasing other people and this is your MO, right? So you're not, you're pleasing other people. And this is your MO, right? So you're not looking inward.

So you're not really gauging that disconnect between the person you wanna be and the role that you're fulfilling until sort of the heat gets turned up and then you become unhappy and then you're confused. Why am I unhappy? I'm doing all these other things. So there has to be some kind of like inflection point.

And then there's the piece around how do you communicate around that to kind of step out of the role that you're playing and find a better, healthier one. That is so true. A hundred percent. Cause you're right. I didn't even realize that that's what I was doing. So sitting there having the reflection of does this, who do I want to be? Who do I want to show up as every day that makes me feel good that lives gives me the life that I want and then maybe it's even just taking account like you just sit back with no judgment and take an account of your week and it's like oh I woke up and I'm you know made my husband coffee and then I did the laundry for him

and then right and it's like how many of those were for you and maybe that becomes the first part of it and just self-assessing where your time and energy is going because you may not realize that you're doing it because you're on autopilot so actually i think that's a beautiful place to start and then recognizing how it can hold you back and what you're trying to do and then i use the words does it serve you right so if you've got your goal if you've got that idea of who you want to be and then you take the inventory of your day and then say does this act serve this person that you want to be and then if the answer is no how do you communicate that with the people in your life that was really hard for me because

with with my husband I had told him I wanted four children and so here I was I was a stay-at-home wife taking care of him every single need he had to the point where he would get home from work his dinner was waiting for him he'd wake up in the morning his gym clothes right there waiting next to his bed he'd put his gym clothes on I would hand him his key I mean I'm talking every ounce of thing that he needed and this was a decision we made together if I told my wife I wanted her to put my gym clothes out you know she would just look at me like are you insane and I know the funny thing is now I laugh at it but it was I was the one that actually said I told my wife I wanted her to put my gym clothes out. You know, she would just look at me like, are you insane? And I know the funny thing is now I laugh at it,

but it was, I was the one that actually said that because at the time the decision was, he was gonna go and make money for movies. And we had just read an interview with Steve Jobs who said he doesn't make, he doesn't spend even an ounce of his time making decisions of things that don't matter. Same black t-shirt every day. Exactly.

So that's what we did. I was like, oh, that makes sense. Babe, I'll make every decision for you outside of business. That way we can expedite the business side of it and we can hopefully make more money in a shorter period of time and now we can go make movies. So that's why I decided you wake up,

your clothes are there. You go to work, I hand you a lunch bag. Like I did everything. And so then flash forward you slowly disappear in the process of doing that so then exactly you then you do a hundred percent and then quest group 57 000 I realized how much I loved business and I was trying to juggle both now in that I was just not doing anything well and so that became the point of who do I want to be what do I actually want to do?

And I realized I loved entrepreneurship. I love being challenged. I love showing myself what I'm capable of. One day not knowing something, not having a skill set and then facing that and then trying and finally succeeding just lit me up. And so I had to sit down and communicate that with Tom. And a big part of that was A, showing showing your partner respect, that I was the one changing. And I had to be honest with that. It's like, yes, I was this person and now I am the one changing. So having the respect to show them, or show them the respect. Then number two, I was like, I know my husband wants me, he wants me to be happy. So I need to express how unhappy I was because I never told him.

And so I need to express how unhappy I was for eight years and then express to him how this is making me happy. And then I need to give him the grace to be honest about how he feels. And so in that, I said, babe, I was profoundly unhappy. I've now found myself, but I love you more than life itself, but I no longer wanna put your itself, but I no longer want to

put your clothes out. I no longer want to clean with you. In fact, I freaking hate it. Still means I love you. It doesn't change how I feel about you, but I absolutely hate what I'm doing at home. And so I don't want to leave you your laundry anymore. And so his response was, you know- It's not an unreasonable request. Right. But he was just like, look, what kind of husband would I be that I would put laundry ahead of your happiness? So he was like, you know, so look, if you don't do the laundry

and I have to go work to work commando, then I'll go to work commando. And then we joke, but then literally like five weeks later or something, I didn't do the laundry for about five weeks. And he's like, paper, I'm out of underwear. So I'm going to work commando with no underwear. And I was like, all right, bye, thanks.

But that's an actual true story. And that was because we communicated. I was very open about how I felt and where I was in my life. I gave him the space to also tell me how he felt. And he was honest. And he's like, look, of course I love you taking care of me. Like what crazy person wouldn't love the fact that they don't have to think about their food and their clothes and all of that.

So it's going to be difficult, but the transition is going to be difficult. So do you mind just bearing with me over this transition? And so I was like, no, what if we actually have a process? I'm going to wean you off, me being the stay at home wife. So you're used to me doing it seven days a week. Next week, I'm going to do it six. Then the week after that, how do you feel if I just do it five? And then the week after that, I'm just going to do it four. And then I'm going to do it for three days a week. That way, it's a slow transition and you don't feel like I've just abandoned you.

He's like, actually, that sounds really nice. Thank you for that. So I showed him I was being considerate. He was now being on board with the transition. And it ended up like he just supported me and it became like this beautiful moment where we were able to really show up for each other and then the last piece of everything that i've just laid out is the grieving part he had to grieve the wife that i was and i had to grieve the wife and mother i thought i was going to be

so what i mean by that is I decided I no longer wanted children. And my husband really wasn't, he was just like, if you really want children, like it wasn't as big a deal to him. But I realized I loved business so much, so much that I had to process whether I wanted children. I talk about that in the book, how I processed it. And I came to the conclusion that I didn't actually loved my life and I didn't want children. And so even talking to him about that, I decided I didn't want children. And so even talking to him about that, I decided I didn't want children,

but that didn't mean there was a part of me that didn't desperately want children. And so I just had to be honest with myself that just because we make one decision in life that can be beautiful, it doesn't mean that we're not upset and heartbroken, that we've had to leave another life behind. And I think it's important to address it

and then maybe mourn and grieve it. And that's what I did. I still today, which I still today would love to see little Tom running around, have a daughter that could like, I could help build like a strong mindset that I never had. I could get excited over it. So I knew that just because I didn't want children

or like I actually wanted children the only thing i wanted more than children was to not have children so i had to give myself the grace to grieve the idea of being a mother i had to give tom the grace to grieve the idea that we weren't going to have children and then we were able to overcome it i can actually say it with total honesty and clarity that yes, it's still heartbreaking, but it literally holds no tie to my heart anymore. Well, it's also a situation where everybody's gonna have a lot of opinions

and judgments. Yes, oh my God. You have to be prepared to be on the receiving end of everybody questioning that or having their idea around that. Yes, and actually going back to the people pleasing subject, it's like my mom told me growing up,

my entire life, even when I got married, I want nothing more in life than to be a grandmother. Those words actually came out. Now, I then decided I wasn't going to have kids. So I had to tell her

and I knew she would be devastated. I knew I'd break her heart. And so how do you make sure that you still hold true to who you are and what you want in life, knowing that you're about to hurt someone? To your point, you have to stand firm and really ground yourself in your decision before you tell anyone else. Because to your point, people are going to come to you, they're going to try and persuade you, they're going to try and degrade you, they're going to try and tell you why you're wrong.

And so how do you stay firm without being like a bull in a china shop that's like, don't you talk to me like that. I've decided not to have kids because again, that doesn't help my relationship with my mom either. So how do you do it with grace? How do you show up and communicate that without giving up or backtracking on this decision that you is really aligned with who you want to be. Right, so how do you do it? How do you drop the bomb? I did it with utter respect. So with my mom, originally I was like,

mom, I know that you really want grandchildren. I've decided, and I tried to do exactly what I did with Tom because it worked with Tom. So I was like, I'm just gonna explain to her that it fills my heart and I really love it. But I realized that the very next time she kept asking me, so when are you gonna have kids? I'm like, I just told her.

Like literally a couple of weeks ago, I just told her that I'm not having kids and she still asks me. It was dismissed from that compartment of the brain. Yeah, exactly. So I was like, okay, it's just the reality she doesn't want to hold onto. So I think she's hoping that it was a phase in my life.

And so I just needed to be firm in talking to her about it openly but the other part was I actually said to her mom can you please stop asking me I know why and I know it comes from a good place that's another thing making sure people don't feel like they're being attacked like mom I know this is coming from a good place and I know that you you are asking me because you hope that maybe I'm going to change my mind and that hope is maybe giving you a know that you are asking me because you hope that maybe I'm gonna change my mind and that hope is maybe giving you a feeling that makes you feel good. But I actually don't wanna give you false hope and you asking me actually makes me feel

like you're dismissing the decision I've made. And that was the moment she just burst into tears and that was I think the recognition that she was like, okay, I am not able to persuade you. And you've just told me that trying to persuade you is actually hurting you. So as your mother, of course, I will respect it. And look, that doesn't mean that other parents are going to react like that, right? And it doesn't mean that other people are going to give you the grace in the decision you make. Part of the calculus and not having kids that you talk about in the book

is just getting honest with the fact that like you both love your life and what you're doing and you love business and Tom having the recognition that he didn't wanna be an absentee father, that if he was gonna be a father, he wanted to be the kind of father that would be in alignment with his values and that that would create a situation that perhaps was untenable

because it put in conflict these two ideas, which I think is a really, I mean, it takes honesty and vulnerability to like admit that, but to then say, so we're gonna make this decision fine. Although I would say to you, I think you guys work too hard. Tom's working 120 hours a week. Like I understand he's passionate about what he's doing

and that's cool and you don't have kids and more power to you, you should do whatever you wanna do. But like, you know, that's intense, man. It is. And you know, it's one of these, as long as the second it starts to get in our relationship, like interfere with our relationship, I will speak up.

But if he's working 120 hours a week, how could it not? Like that's basically all waking hours. Yes, exactly. So we sit down and again, I'm the one that waves the flag. So from Monday to Friday, when he wakes up, usually he's out of bed before I am. And so I kiss him good morning, my kettle is boiled, right? So I know he's thought about me.

And then we typically just have business meetings. And then to the end of the day, I may not see him. I may not interact with him until he gets into bed. So that's on Monday to Friday. He may get into bed. Now look, at the end of the day, I want my husband to feel fulfilled because if he's not fulfilled, he's not bringing his best self to the relationship. So if he finds joy in working that much, I just, you know, I support him. I support him until it becomes detrimental. So for instance, to your point, where do you find time?

I'm very busy. I'm very passionate about what I do as well. So I don't feel neglected in any way, or I don't feel like he's an absent husband. But because I'm on the tour with my book, and it's been so busy. In fact, literally yesterday, yesterday, Rich, I text him. And I said, babe, I just looked at our calendar. We haven't connected for two weeks. I just looked at our calendar.

Your mom arrives tomorrow. So his mom arrives today. And I was like, and then she's here for two weeks. And then I go straight to England to carry on my book tour. So there's four weeks now that we're not gonna hang out and actually have quality time. Cause I'm all about quality time.

I'm not about how much time, it just has to be quality. And so I just identified, oh, if we don't change something right now, if he continues down 120 hours to your point of working this much, now it becomes detrimental to our relationship and I ain't having that.

So I texted him yesterday and he's like, okay, let's make time. And so now it's like, I feel very confident that he's going to make sure that he has time for us to connect. And in those moments, the 120 hours don't sit well with me because he's not gonna be with me

if he has to do 120 hours. But other than that, I know who I married. And that was another thing. I've seen so many couples that they think that if you've got a ring on your finger or you've got children, that it changes the person. So I just go into it with honesty and my eyes wide open. So to your point of what you said earlier, when we were going to have kids or I was assessing whether we should have kids or not, I looked at my life and I said, I love working. So if I had children, what would that look like right now? And so in

that I had to ask Tom, babe, what type of father do you want to be? And he said, I don't want to be the father that's coming home or the person that's coming home at five, six o'clock in the evening to have dinner with the kids. I'm so passionate about what I do that from basically from Monday to Friday, I won't be getting up in the middle of the night and changing their diapers and I won't be home at 6pm to have dinner. Now, I can only respect that he was honest with me. And so now the fact that he was honest with me, I can take that information and then see is that the life I want? Do I want kids where the father where my husband isn't going to be home at dinner every night? Does that mean that I'm basically a single parent from Monday to

Friday? At least I know. Because the amount of people that i've seen in marriages especially when there's new kids where they're like my husband i had to force him to get up in the middle of the night i don't want to be in a position where i'm forcing my husband to do anything so if we can at least have the communication with no judgment then you can just take it for fact before i actually have the kid and then realize oh oh you're not going to not going to be getting up in the middle of the night. I don't want that surprise. Now knowing what type of father he's going to be, he said to me, on weekends, babe, of course, I want to be there for my children.

So knowing that piece of information, I literally said to him, so where's the time for me and you? And that's where the realization came from, where it's like, oh, so if we do this based on what we know about each other, based on what we know about ourselves, this could damage our relationship. And are we willing to risk that? And the answer was no.

Yeah, you thought through every permutation of the whole thing and made the right decision for you guys. So it's perfectly fine. I just don't want Tom to have his version of your gut issues because he's working too hard. And that's very important to me. And I actually am trying to be a, what's the word?

A good example. So he'll say like, oh, well, let's just have this the meeting at 7pm. And I'll be like, no babe, I'm switching off today at six. And I'll just be like, you can come and join me. Or like, hey, I need space. I need to create this mental space for me. He's definitely way like just hardcore,

like he thrives off it. And so, but as the wife, obviously I care about his health. And so making sure that we're able to do what we can to optimize his health in any way possible. So his sleep, his diet, all of that. The last thing I wanna get into is this transition into being a media company. While you were still at Quest,

there was this decision to create kind of like this in-house talk show. I remember those early videos. And then there's the Quest exit and now Impact Theory and women of impact and all these shows that you guys are doing. It's very professionally run. You guys have both developed really large followings of people. You put out like the highest quality content. I mean, it's so clearly distinguished from pretty much everything else that's out there,

like the level of intentionality that goes into it, the guest selection, like everything about it is like top tier. And like, is it the tip of the spear? Everybody's watching to see what you guys are doing and then are mimicking it or copying it. And it's cool. And I think it's, you know, an amazing service that you put out into the world for free. So walk me through like that decision, like after the quest exit, there's no real urgency to do anything. Like how do you find meaning? You've achieved such tremendous success. What is the impetus and the motivation

and the kind of value set that's driving you guys so hard to work so hard on this stuff and put this messaging out into the world? First of all, I wanna say thank you. That's a huge compliment coming from you. So I appreciate that. So as we were building Quest, the mission part of it became a very strong pull for me and Tom. So for me, originally it was, you know, save, help Quest to save your house so that you don't lose your house. And then over time, that is obviously a very fear-based thing to propel you forward. And so over time, I needed to attach to a mission.

And so we got this letter one day from this woman really early on. She was anorexic and she'd been in hospital. She was 40 pounds and she was basically on her deathbed. Wow. And she wrote us an email and said, thank you for making Quest bars because it made me okay with calories again. Now having a mother who was borderline anorexic,

having, you know, unhealthy relationship with food myself, I didn't see that coming. I expected like the obese community, thank you for helping me lose weight. And then there was another letter from this woman who shared a type one diabetic son and he was like four years old. And she's like every day

of his life i'm always having to follow him make sure he doesn't pick up cupcakes at birthday parties and blah blah blah and i feel like a terrible mother but he can actually have quest bars and his blood sugar doesn't spike thank you for making me feel like a better mom and i was like oh my god so mission very much over time became a big pull for me. And so as our mission and the company grew, that story that I said where we got the house and it was like the dream come true, that day where like you hear rumors that, you know, it takes a while when you sell a portion of a company. So you heard rumors it was going to hit on one day. And so we're waiting, we're waiting, we're like refreshing our bank account basically. And then all of a sudden the money hits. But we were tied to a

mission. So as soon as the money hits, we celebrated, we took a selfie and we got dressed and went straight back to work. So as Quest just got bigger and bigger, we realized that Quest bars were amazing for people who had already decided they were worth it. That people who already decided, you know what, I'm not gonna pick up a candy bar today, I'm gonna pick up a Quest bar. But what about the millions and millions of people that don't even believe they're worth it, that are too depressed or to have too much anxiety to walk into the gym?

How do you help those people? And what we realized was our transformation in our lives had become because of the mindset. And so Tom and I said, we need to really help people with the mind and because both of our backgrounds were filmmaking we both loved content tom was like well babe what if i built you know we build a studio and i just interviewed the most incredible people doctors influencers business people anyone who has amazing message to help impact people. Now that really is like the no BS. How do you actually create 360 wellness?

You attach the mind and the body, not just the body. So we started this show, started doing very well. And then we realized that that was the most powerful piece. Now when you're growing and you've got business partners, we realized that this was really where our heart was. They wanted to focus on just the body. So we spun that studio out into our own studio. And so we realized that was where the people were going to meet us in order to get the quest bar. Like my mom, she was clinically obese by the time this whole story started.

And I was trying to throw money at it. Like, mom, here's the best chef. Here's a trainer. Like, she kept saying, I can't lose the weight. I'm too old. I'm too old. I'm 70 i'm 70 i'm too old diets don't work for me she happened to have retired just as we started uh impact theory and so she started to watch tom's content and as she was watching tom's content within a year she lost 120 pounds wow and she went from the person that said she can't lose the weight she's too old to one day i called her up and i'm like oh mom how you doing how's the you know the the health

journey going because i always try to you know about health not weight how's the health journey going she was like well it was really raining today and in my mind i was like and here come the excuses right of why she wasn't able to maybe get in her health workout that she said she was going to do. And she's like, so I got in the car and I drove to the biggest grocery store near us and I got my Fitbit and I walked up and down the aisles. I did four miles and I bought an apple

and I turned around and drove back home. Now that is mindset right there in action. That is showing someone how even in her 70s, just by changing how she thought about things, she was able to achieve whatever she wanted in life. And so for us, the pivot really became the question of what do we want to wake up every day and do? We could have bought an island, you know, we could have bought an island. But after a week, we would have been bored. What what's that mission what's that reason you get up every day and so for us now the reason why tom works 120 hours is because he believes even more now in what we do

he believes even more in what we're trying to achieve and so that's why you see us like if we work as hard as we do it's because we so believe in and attach ourselves to our mission that we hold ourselves accountable. And again, because of my health that I said, I'm so glad it happened on that day of all days, because it taught me immediately that money and success doesn't buy you happiness. How you feel about yourself does. That's it. How you feel about yourself. So do I feel healthy? Do do i feel good do i have a healthy mindset am i proud of myself do i get up every day and fight for something bigger than myself if i can keep answering those as yes then i know i'm doing the right thing

that's beautiful just don't fall into the all this wellness is making me unwell trap i know and here's the thing like we're're so of service that we're actually like destroying our own lives in the process. And Rich, you're 100% right. And look, it can become detrimental. And so I'm very aware of that because of my gut issues. And I am definitely make sure,

or at least not definitely make sure, I try to make sure right now, especially that I'm focusing on that, especially with Tom as well. Final thing I wanna get into, and then I'll release you to your life. No, this has been so fun, are you joking? Is, well, I mean, I think what we should do

is round this out with just some thoughts for people that are at the beginning of this radical confidence journey. Like what are the first steps that somebody can take? I'm imagining the person who's watching or listening, who feels alone, who has an issue with self-esteem, who doesn't feel deserving of good things, who once had an ambition for what their life could be, but is now in a situation that's okay, why rock the boat? And incur that risk into your life if you don't think that it's ever gonna work out anyway.

Like untie that knot and let's get that person on a different mindset route towards a healthier perspective and provide them with the beginning points of a set of tools that could reshape how they're thinking about this and move them in a better direction. All right, let's do it.

So step one, I think is saying, right now, are you saying, I'm gonna do this when? So if you, like just start taking inventory. If you do, I wanna ask you a question. What if that when never comes? Would you still be on the path you're on now? Like imagine this thing. Would you still do what you do every day? If you knew that the when never came, if your answer is no, that's amazing because now you've identified that you need to make a shift. Now, how do you make that shift? I want them to answer

the other question is you want the confidence in order to do what? So you have to identify what that goal is, right? So it's like you realize you have to recognize that you're not on the path you want to be. You have to recognize now what that path should look or could look like in that end goal. And then you need to create a stepping stone plan of how you're going to do it. One small step at a time. Maybe you can't even do the plan yet. Maybe you just have to take inventory of what you're going to do it one small step at a time maybe you can't even do the plan yet maybe you just have to take inventory of what you do on a daily basis so you can just

assess where your life is being spent now because you've said it multiple times right we all go on autopilot we may not even know and then putting those stepping stones of what that looks like but then i would actually say i do tell the people around me. So sharing this new path, this new goal with the people, I think is going to be very helpful for people that may not be able to take that first step. And it doesn't have to be everyone.

And I would actually advise, only tell the people that you actually feel are going to support you. Because right now, maybe you're not strong enough to tell people that are going to be like,

oh my God, you're going to do that. Because everybody obviously has an opinion. And then once you've identified the steps, now, in fact, actually, I'm going to back up. I missed out one step. What is your mission? Because you may have a goal. You have to tie that goal to a mission. Because you don't know if you're actually going to get to the goal.

that goal to a mission because you don't know if you're actually going to get to the goal. And you can sure bet that on your way to the goal, you're going to have hurdles and obstacles all along the way. So how do you keep moving forward? For me, it was absolutely identifying that mission because in everything we've been talking about, facing the fear, facing the insecurity, facing the negative voice. How, why? Because people are, why would I do that? Why would I keep moving forward? To me, it was the mission. Every time I doubted myself,

I had to bring myself back to that. And so when someone's thinking about a mission, to me, it's like, what is that thing that pulls at your heartstrings? Now, once you've thought about it, actually be succinct in what that mission is. Because you can't be like up in, I kind of want to, I want to create impact.

Even that, what does that mean? That could be like, you want to create impact for your kid? You want to impact your friend? Like, how do you know if you're actually moving towards it or not? So to me, I think being very succinct in that mission is also the next step. How do you write a mission statement? The who-

Well, even, sorry to intervene. No, please, jump in. I think, you know, the greater, in that mission is also the next step. How do you write a mission statement? Even sorry to intervene. No please, jump in. I think, you know, the greater, like what I'm imagining as you're saying this is the person who is stuck in kind of a dead end situation or just a less than stellar situation. Who's thinking like all they're thinking about is like,

this kind of sucks, but she's talking about a mission. Like, I don't even know what I wanna do at all. Like, I don't know how to have a mission. Like I'm trying to imagine just a job that's a little bit better than the one I currently have. Okay, thank you. That's amazing because I think that's really freaking strong because I think about mission now is like,

it's the thing that I always go to, but you're right. How do people even know what a mission is? Sometimes you not know and that's where experiments come in you have to give yourself the grace to see what pulls at your heartstrings because you may not know you may have been stuck to your point like i was may have been stuck for eight years you don't even know like i wouldn't have known that my mission was to help people if i hadn't started quest and been thrown into it so i think it becomes giving yourself the grace to experiment. What does that actually look like? Take out a piece of paper

and just jot down all the things that sound good. So if it was impact, let's just say I wanna impact people. Okay, what does that actually mean? Well, I'm not actually sure yet. Okay, well, write out a list of all the ways you can impact people. Go volunteer at a homeless shelter.

Maybe that's your jam. I think most people who say they wanna impact people, what they're really saying is they want attention. Oh, interesting. Okay, so let's piece that. In fact, I love that honesty. And here's the thing, actually, if people listening right now

can be that honest with themselves, I think that that can be beautiful. And the reason why I think that can be beautiful is the next question I'll ask is, why do you feel like you need attention? And then it's like, well, because I don't get attention, I don't feel good about myself. I'm not seen.

Yeah, I'm not seen. Okay, great. Or I have some deep insecurity. Yeah. I feel invisible in the world or my ego is wounded or it could be a million things. I mean, my point in bringing that up is that it's a little bit more in,

it's more of an internal search, a deep psychological search than it is just, you know, like, oh, these are the things that interest me when you're drilling down to like mission, because I think we play tricks on ourselves. We're not even honest with ourselves about what it is that we actually want. That's actually really true.

And I love that. And I think that being able to drill down just means like for me, it's taking the judgment way and then just keep asking questions. So, well, I just wanna impact cause I wanna feel good about myself. Okay, well, why don't you feel good about yourself right now?

What would that look like? Because sometimes to your point, we may not know. And so if you can give yourself the grace the grace the grace grace to just keep asking questions and then see where it leads you you know and then i do think trying though because sometimes you don't know and so you're like well i don't think really that doesn't sound great just give it a shot because maybe you'll be surprised and so if you don't actually take action, that's also another thing.

Because I think some people actually will stay internal, right? They're just like, well, I'm doing the inner work, but they're not actually putting themselves out there. The inner work has to translate into some kind of behavioral change at some point. Yeah, I love that. Otherwise it's just masturbatory.

Yeah, yeah, exactly. It really is because it's kind of like, you know, the, I can't remember the phrase that people use now where it's like, they listen to the podcast and they read the books. And so they're like, yes, I'm in self-help, but they're not taking action. They've convinced themselves that by doing the work

or listening to the podcast or, you know, going to these events that they're doing the work. But if you're only looking at one piece of the puzzle, I think that there's a whole other world that you're missing. So if all you're looking at is what your actions are, and you're not internalizing it, that's a problem. But also on the reverse, if all you're doing is internalizing and doing the inner work, but not taking the action to actually prove to yourself whether you can do it, whether it feels right, whether it is pulling at your heartstrings, how are you ever going to know? You're going to stay internal. And to yourself, whether you can do it, whether it feels right, whether it is pulling at your heart strings, how are you ever going to know? You're going to stay internal. And to me, the action

part is such an imperative part of the process. I think there's an epidemic of that. You scroll through Instagram, you see the inspiring quote, you listen to the podcast, you read the book, or you read the summary of the book, and then you feel like you've accomplished something. There is a little bit of a dopamine release with that. Like, oh, this was an esteemable act on behalf of myself. I've done the work. Why isn't my life any better? And oh, well, it must be because there's this new book

that came out this week or this other podcast that I haven't listened to. At this point, the information is all out there, and then it becomes on you as to whether you start practicing it and really getting honest with yourself and modifying some of your behavior patterns that are leading you astray. A thousand percent. And that's why I also write the book. I didn't want people to think of me being as like anything, but completely imperfect,

but I'm actually okay with that. I just keep showing and even today you know i've just been traveling so i've been really tired and so i have i actually put on some like socks that's i know you got these crazy i'm gonna pull off my shoes all right so she believed she could nice so she did oh wow so i've got those? My sister actually gave me these, but I've got Wonder Woman socks. So the point of why I'm showing you my socks right now is because I want you to know there are moments where I don't feel great. There are moments where I'm tired and I have doubt and I have insecurities.

And so I just say, how do I keep showing up? And it's okay. And giving yourself the grace that it's never one and done. It's never perfection it is this ebb and flow it is this um ever evolving like oh i use this technique it didn't work what else am i going to try because to me i don't want people to just listen to this podcast or read the book and feel good about themselves for an hour the whole point is for them to actually

take the tactics and use them in their life because i still use the tactics like i said i've got the socks on today because I needed that extra little boost of confidence to come to the Rich World podcast. So, you know, I just own it and I adapt and don't think that I've always got it handled. Yeah, I appreciate that. And I appreciate the Women of Impact show that you host

being so female centric. I think this whole kind of self-improvement internet space is overwhelmingly too male dominated. And, you know, with the exception of, you know, there's Brene Brown and Glennon Doyle, there's some amazing women out there, but there aren't enough. And I think it's really cool that you're like,

I'm gonna have these amazing women on. These are the stories I'm gonna share. I'm gonna put out this certain message for a certain type of audience that is underserved right now. And I think that I just wanted to like acknowledge that as being like a powerful and important thing that you do. Thank you, actually comes, can I be honest?

It comes from such a selfish place. I'm like getting in front of these women every week, I learn and it empowers me. And that's part of why I do it as well because i'm like if i'm just showing up and these women are not impacting me how can i expect them to impact other people and so i think that you know we're all like a example and so for me it's like i'm always showing up flawed and you know try to own it in the most honest sense possible and then having these guests on to kind of show that none of us are perfect.

No one knows everything. And as a female, it's okay to own insecurities. It's okay to talk about things, but to not let it stop you. And that's been my journey. And so as much as I can help impact people, you wanna talk about the mission, right? That's what gets me out of bed every day.

Right, and not stop you from engaging with Patty Jenkins and running her at the airport because you have a Wonder Woman symbol on the back of your head, like shaved into the back of your head and you run into the director of Wonder Woman. Died, I almost died. I had the Wonder Woman shaved because-

Come on, it's like, that's a divine lens. Of course you were gonna run into Patty Jenkins. So the funny thing is, is that was another empowerment piece. So I was going to New York, it was the week of my launch of my book. And I was on my first live television show, Tamron Hall. Now I've never been on live television before. So I was so scared. I was petrified. And so I was like, all right, Lisa, you know who you are. You don't always have to feel confident, but you do have radical confidence, which means

you're going to use the tools you need in order to show up and go on Tamron Hall. And so I was like, I needed the Wonder Woman logo shaved in my head and I do it every so often. And so I happened to have done it. And then yes, at the airport on the way back, I get a tap on the shoulder and it's freaking Patty Jenkins. And she's like, I just saw the Wonder Woman logo.

I saw your backpack has a Wonder Woman logo. And she's like, I just had to come and say hello. That's so great. It's so amazing. You gotta get her on your show. Oh dude, I'm working on it. She's a powerhouse. She's amazing.

She's a beast. She's got a great backstory too, punk rock. And you know, like it's a really cool like story about like following your heart and your intuition. I actually don't know too much about her backstory. She has a great story. Yeah, yeah, yeah. She would be a great guest.

You gotta go. Oh, I'm totally girl crushing on her and I'm just like, oh my God, she's so amazing. I mean, like, come on. She makes movies,

directs movies and Wonder Woman. It's like, am I not, I'm like absolutely obsessed with her. But like, that's the other thing is that I still allow myself

to play so much. I allow myself so much to be that kid that when I freaking meet Patty Jenkins, I lose my mind and I'm like, I can't believe I met Patty Jenkins. You know, I allow myself so much to be that kid that when I freaking meet Patty Jenkins I lose my mind and I'm like I can't believe I met Patty Jenkins you know I allow that I want to feel joy in my heart I want to be silly like that's how I keep showing up it's the excitement in me that keeps me going and I think as adults um I definitely had lost that for years and years and years and so

I purposely cultivate it now which is why I put the Wonder Woman logo in my, you know, my office is full of statues of superheroes doing like these powerful moves and flying in the air. And I've literally got like statues in my office. We got to get you over to Sideshow. I know, I so wanna go. That's where they make the best statues. That's why I came in your room

and I was just like totally like, I was like, this is like Disneyland to me right now, guys. It's beautiful. We'll set that up. In the meantime, I really appreciate everything you shared today. Thank you. Yeah, it's super inspiring.

You have such a command over the message that you're trying to put out into the world and it's earned through experience and I just found it very helpful. And so I am at your service. I appreciate everything that you're doing. And it's super cool. And it's been fun getting to know you a little bit today.

And I look forward to getting to know you and Tom a little bit better. Thank you. It's been such a pleasure. Thanks for having me. In the meantime, everybody pick up Radical Confidence. You can find it on Amazon or at lisabillyou.com. Radicalconfidence.com.

Radicalconfidence.com. Yeah, I got the website. There you go. Women of Impact.com. Yeah, I got the website. There you go. Women of Impact. Lisa's easy to find on the internet. Anywhere else you want to direct people or any kind of announcements you want to make before we wrap up here?

No, that's great. I mean, the book is on radicalconfidence.com and my podcast, I usually focus on the video content. Yeah, it's more YouTube forward. Yeah, I love YouTube. You get to see like the interaction and yeah. Cool.

All right. Well, come back and talk to me again sometime. Definitely. Thanks for having me. Peace. Later. That's it for today. Thank you for listening.

I truly hope you enjoyed the conversation. To learn more about today's guest, including links and resources related to everything discussed today, visit the episode page at richroll.com, where you can find the entire podcast archive, as well as podcast merch, my books, Finding Ultra, Voicing Change in the Plant Power Way, as well as the Plant Power Meal Planner at meals.richroll.com. If you'd like to support the podcast, the easiest and most impactful thing you can do is to subscribe to the show on Apple Podcasts, on Spotify and on YouTube and leave a review and or comment.

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