The Rich Roll Podcast - Lisa Lange’s Vision For a Better World & Why It’s Cool To Be Compassionate

Episode Date: November 3, 2014

Confession time. I’m the first to admit that my initial reasons for adopting a plant-based lifestyle were selfish. I was overweight. I felt lousy. I looked lousy. I had a health scare. Basically, I just wanted to look and feel better. I wanted to enjoy my kids at their energy level. I wasn’t ready to succumb to middle age defeat. So I took the leap. A leap without much expectation I might add. Then the miracle. I dropped 50 pounds. My vitality returned. That long-gone youthful glow restored. I didn't just get my life back, I got an entirely new one. Today I am living the life beyond my wildest dreams. I could have never predicted the journey that would follow this simple decision. It has been long, at times hard, but ultimately extraordinary in every way imaginable. It's not an understatement that everything in my life has changed for the better. And for that I am extremely grateful. There is one thing I know with certainty. If you want a great life, give more than you receive. This is primary reason behind my decision to start this podcast — to share with you the people, information, tools and inspiration that have been so incredibly transformative in my life. But let's be honest. I didn't get into this plant-based lifestyle because I wanted to save the animals. Frankly, my concern for the health of the planet could be characterized as passive lip service at best. I was the furthest thing from a food activist. And when it came to environmental, ethical and political issues like GMO’s, the deleterious effects of factory farming, slaughterhouse conditions, carbon emissions, the deforestation of the rainforests, species extinction, the mistreatment of circus animals, the pollution and overfishing of our oceans and the moral implications of harvesting animals for food, the truth is that I didn't really give it much thought. That was then. But this is now. In the eight years since I began this journey, I have changed. I have grown. Ever so slowly, my eyes have started to open to a myriad of uncomfortable realities relating to how our world functions. Unpleasant and unnecessary realities that I can no longer in good conscience turn a blind eye to. I’ve been blessed with a platform. My book and this podcast have given me an audience. With this comes a certain responsibility that I take seriously. What is that responsibility? I can't say that I’m entirely sure. However, I do know that it entails a commitment to the truth. A commitment to shed light on and help raise awareness around issues that affect not just me, but all of us. Things that are not right. Things that need to change. The truth isn’t always comfortable. It's generally not convenient. And often not popular because it challenges us to think differently and in many cases modify behaviors we might not want to modify. To me, the truth also presents a growth opportunity. An opportunity to be bold. To do and be better. I know can do better. And if this podcast isn’t about that, then it's just wasted air. Our fast-paced, hyper-industrialized world lives in a comfortable haze of convenience priority. We go about our day happily and for the most part unconsciously disconnected from the process undertaken to bring consumer products into our homes. This includes the clothes we wear, the devices we use and of course the foods we enjoy. This is process I really don't want to look at. It's uncomfortable because it forces me to transcend denial and truly consider what actually goes on behind the shroud of obfuscation erected by giant conglomerates, powerful lobbying efforts and governmental forces that have a strong vested interest in maintaining the disconnect that cloaks the public from certain unpalatable realities. Dismantling the disconnect isn't fun.

Welcome to the Rich World Podcast, episode 111 with Lisa Lange. But before we get into it, a couple quick announcements. The first thing is, you heard me talk about the documentary Cowspiracy if you've been listening to the podcast. No, you don't know what I'm talking about. You're new to the podcast well maybe check out episode 91 it's my conversation with the filmmakers kip anderson and keegan coon very illuminating very entertaining very educational uh what is cowspiracy well it's a documentary it's an incredibly sobering and powerful and also entertaining film that takes a hard, unflinching look at the deleterious impact of animal agriculture on the environment. And more particularly, the reasons behind why this crucial issue fails to get the

airtime and attention it deserves in the global environmentalism conversation. So imagine the famous documentary, An Inconvenient Truth Truth in a mashup with the more recent popular documentary Blackfish, and you start to get the picture. The filmmakers have been crisscrossing the United States hosting screenings, and there's been a lot of independently hosted screenings, I think like 100 overall. And this has created tremendous grassroots awareness and excitement about this movie. And that has led to questions. How can I see the film? Well, now you can. The DVD is coming out in November and we're now offering it for pre-order on our website. So if you go to richworld.com forward slash products for $19.95,

you can get a copy of the DVD pre-ordering it. And we also have special prices for bulk purchases. So do that. I made this announcement last week that resulted in a very positive response, but also a few comments and emails, people saying, why should I order a DVD? It's wasteful. I can just watch it online. And why should I pre-order? And I get it. I understand where you're coming from with all of that. I completely understand. But I guess I would also say that I still think that DVDs are a great way to share the message and the film with other people. I mean, sure, you can give somebody a link, say, hey, check this out. Sometimes they watch it, sometimes they don't. But there's something about handing somebody a physical product that really kind of helps carry the message. And it makes a great gift, which is why we have reduced per unit pricing on bulk purchases during this pre-order phase. So

of course, the film will be online at some point. I'm not sure exactly when yet. I'll let you know as soon as I know. And there are interesting things afoot in terms of online distribution, interesting things afoot in terms of online distribution. But DVDs have a place. So there you go. Check it out. Second thing is we have a restaurant. We are owners in a restaurant, which is amazing and super cool because it's just another way for us to kind of broaden community and dialogue about all the issues that I talk about on the podcast. It's been a fantastic experience. It's been open about, I don't know, six or eight weeks at this point. It's going really well.

The early feedback is super positive. People seem to be really enjoying it. So I want you guys to check it out if you're in LA. It's called Joy Cafe, J-O-I. It's all plant-based. It's all organic. It's all awesome all the time. So if you're in the LA area, please swing by.

If you go by at lunchtime, more likely than not that I'll be there. I'm there, I don't know, three or four times a week for lunch. But you are certain to meet Joy and Nick, the two main owners who are always there. They'll chat you up. They'll answer your questions. They'll engage you. They will serve you incredible food and just make your day better. So we're out in the Westlake Village area.

If you take the Westlake Boulevard exit off the 101 freeway, we're at kind of catty corner to Agora Road. You can find it on Yelp for directions and all that good stuff. Third thing is, if you want to get healthier, of course you do. That's why you're listening to the podcast. If you want to focus your mind, if you want to take your consciousness up a notch, if you want to get healthier, of course you do. That's why you're listening to the podcast. If you want to focus your mind, if you want to take your consciousness up a notch, if you want to better fuel your body, if you want to get a better grip on this whole plant-based thing, well, we have stuff for that. I've got two online courses at mindbodygreen.com. One is on plant-based

nutrition, and the other one is on goal setting and unlocking your inner potential. The Ultimate Guide to Plant-Based Nutrition is the first one. The second one is called The Art of Living with Purpose. So check those out at richroll.com. We've got nutritional products. We've got a digital e-cookbook. We have a meditation program. We've got merch.

So go to richroll.com to find out more, and don't forget to subscribe to my newsletter. All right, you guys. On with the show. The Rich Roll Podcast. What's up, guys? We're back. My name is Rich Roll. I am your host of the podcast that bears my name. Welcome one, welcome all. There's so many great podcasts out there. So I appreciate you devoting your attention to this podcast. I mean, every day we're seeing so many new,

great podcasts out there. Personally, I've been really digging on Startup and Serial, which are both brand new shows, both seeds that have germinated out of this American life universe. So I would strongly suggest checking those out. They're both really great. And, you know, people always ask me, what do you listen to? What are the podcasts you like? So beyond those two, I guess I would say my regulars are WTF with Marc Maron. I occasionally listen to The Adam Carolla show.

I like Nerdist. I love Radio Lab and some of Joe Rogan's podcasts I find to be very interesting, but it's cyclical. That's just kind of what I'm listening to now. So anyway, there you have it. In any event, thank you for listening. Thank you for spreading the word with your friends. Thank you for Instagramming all the cool ways and places where you enjoy the show. And thank you for listening. Thank you for spreading the word with your friends. Thank you for Instagramming all the cool ways and places where you enjoy the show. And thank you for supporting the show by clicking through the Amazon banner ad at richroll.com for all your Amazon purchases. And hey, man, if you're not doing that, what's up? Come on. The show's free. It will always be free. This is a great way for you to support the show without really having to go out of pocket, because you're probably going to buy something on Amazon anyway. If you take that extra second to click through our banner ad,

they kick us some loose change, does not cost you a cent extra. All right. So I just got back from a great week up in the Bay Area. I was at my 25th college reunion translation. I am old. And it was amazing to catch up with a ton of old friends. And while I was up there, I stayed a couple of days before and after to record a bunch of great podcasts that are going to be coming your way very soon. I sat down with vegan chef, political activist, and cookbook author, Brian Terry. That was an awesome chat. I met with Teen Whisperer, Josh Shipp. That guy was amazing. And also last, but certainly not least, legendary ultra marathoner, Dean Karnazes. And I know you guys are really going to want to hear that one. It was really cool. They were all fantastic

conversations in their own right. And I really can't wait to share them with you guys. So be tuning in for that in the future. All right, confession time. I'm the first to admit that I got into this whole plant-based thing for, you know, basically selfish reasons. I was overweight. I felt lousy. I had a health scare. Basically, I just wanted to feel better. I wanted to enjoy my kids at their energy level. And I just wasn't ready to succumb to middle age defeat and just sink into the couch. And as embarrassing as it is to admit, I wasn't looking too good at the time. I wanted to look better. So again, pretty selfish. So I took a leap and I took that leap without much expectation, I might add. And I could have never in a million years predicted what this journey would turn into.

It's been long. It's been at times very hard, but ultimately extraordinary in every imaginable way. And it's not an understatement to say that everything in my life has changed for the better since I decided to embark on this wellness journey. And I am extremely grateful for all of it. I got everything I wanted. I got my health back. I got my life back. I lost the weight. I look better. I got fit beyond my wildest imagination. I went on to do things athletically I could have never thought I would ever be capable of. So really, it's a dream come true in every way, shape, and form. I've learned from recovery that if you want to keep the good things in your life, then you got to give back. And that's a big reason why I started this podcast, to share what has helped me so much with you.

But here's what I didn't get into this for. I didn't get into this to, for example, save the animals. I didn't get into this because I had some grave concern for the environment. I was not a food activist. the environment. I was not a food activist. Food rights issues, political issues like GMOs, factory farming, slaughterhouse conditions, carbon emissions, the deforestation of the rainforest, species extinction, the destruction of our oceans. These were things that were not really on my mind. And that is the honest truth. But, but as I have walked this path, I have changed. I have grown and I've said it before. It's like I took the blue pill in the matrix and ever so slowly over the last eight years,

whatever it's been, my eyes have started to open slightly at first to certain realities about our world and how it functions. Realities that I, you know, I just, I can no longer in good conscious turn a blind eye to. I can't remain ignorant or unconcerned about things that I am seeing. Why? Because it's just not right. I've been blessed with a platform. I've been blessed with an audience, you guys. And I take it seriously. It carries a certain responsibility. So what is that responsibility?

I can't say that I'm entirely sure, but I do know that it entails a commitment to tell the truth. It entails a commitment to help raise awareness around things that are happening, things that affect not just me, but all of us, things that are not right and need to change. The truth is not always comfortable. It's never convenient.

But to me, the truth is also that we can do better. I can do better. And if this podcast isn't about that, then what is it? It's just wasted air. To wit. Our fast-paced, hyper-industrialized world lives in a comfortable haze of convenience priority. We go about our day happily and unconsciously, or I don't know, sometimes even consciously, as a result of fortified efforts on the part of gigantic conglomerates, government, and powerful lobbying interests, disconnected from the process undertaken to bring consumer products into our homes.

And the truth is, is that this includes how we raise, feed, milk, slaughter, package, and distribute food to our plates. It's not something I want to look at. It's not comfortable to look at because it forces me, it forces you and me to snap our denial and truly consider the process at play, warts and all. It's not fun. It's certainly not as fun as riding my bike. I mean, given the choice and in my earlier incarnation, I'd be the first to look the other way and just go about my day. But I've changed. I can't do that anymore because delusion and ignorance are now more uncomfortable to me than denial. In recovery, they call it, they say the road gets narrower. And I didn't used to know what that means, but now I think I get it. And that's what

today's show is all about. And that's why I wanted to sit down with Lisa Lange, the executive vice president of PETA, which stands for People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals. So again, I've never been a staunch animal rights activist. I wasn't sure I was all that comfortable with some of the tactics undertaken by PETA to raise awareness and snap that comfortable denial. Why? Well, because it wasn't comfortable to me. But being comfortable is lazy. Being comfortable is at odds with growth. And more often than not, being comfortable flies in the face of truth, personal truth,

and truth that affects all of us. And by all, I mean every living thing. So today, I'm owning it. I'm stepping into new terrain. I'm shining a light on certain uncomfortable, inconvenient truths that I now feel it's important to talk about, something it's not okay to ignore. And that is the terrible and inexcusable plight suffered by billions of animals that are abused, tortured, and mistreated as cogs in the massive wheel that is our industrialized food system. Lisa Lange is great.

She's a triathlete. She's a woman of strong convictions. I met her several years ago when she visited our home to interview me for a really cool video that aired on PETA. I'll put the link or I guess I'll embed that in the show notes or on the blog page for the episode. And I thought she's the perfect person to help me and all of us begin to understand these issues, begin to better consider the rules of this game in which we're playing, unwittingly or wittingly. Lisa's a veteran of the animal rights movement, and we sit down and we have this really amazing conversation about what we vote for when we buy animal products at the supermarket,

what this actually means, pulling the curtain back to reveal realities. I honestly think we should all consider and contemplate when we decide how to allocate our dollars at the market, irrespective of your politics or your dietary proclivities. Because ignorance is not cool, no matter who you are. And that dollar that we spend, it's important. It's a reflection of our values. It's our vote for what we want our world to be. It's our vote for what we want our world to be. And that vote, as small and as insignificant and as disenfranchised as you might feel it to be, it actually is important.

A vote we can collectively leverage to create real change. Leverage to forge a better world for ourselves, our children, and future generations. So, I implore you, even if you're someone with a negative preconception or assumption about PETA, even if you're someone not inclined to entertain the animal rights debate, just set it aside. Set aside those preconceived notions and enter this conversation with an open mind. Because contempt prior to investigation is tantamount to willful ignorance. At our core, I believe that we are all compassionate and true strength means embracing that core value. Repressing it as some kind of weakness,

that is the definition of weakness. So let's do something different. So let's do something different. We're brought to you today by recovery.com. I've been in recovery for a long time. It's not hyperbolic to say that I owe everything good in my life to sobriety. And it all began with treatment and experience that I had that quite literally saved my life. And in the many years since,

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As I was driving over here, I was thinking about the first time we met when you drove out to our house. I guess that was like five years ago. Yeah, at least. Something like that, 2009 maybe, 2008. That sounds right. And you did that wonderful video piece on me. Thank you for doing that. Oh, yeah. I was so excited. Which was really cool. And you've always been such a loyal and staunch advocate of mine. So I really appreciate that very, very much. Oh, yeah. Happily. I mean, you inspire so many people. And I'm always

recommending your book to athletes who are struggling as athletes. I'm like, well, try the vegan thing. And here's who can tell you how. What? Vegan? No way. Yeah, it's awesome. And it's worked for so many people. You know, it's just, it's, your book is, is not only inspiring and helpful, it's, it's

really interesting. I just, I, you know, I've known you for a little while when I read the book. I was like, oh, I didn't know that about him. So it's just, it's, it's really good. It keeps people interested. Thanks. I appreciate that. Here I am plugging it again. Yeah. The check's in the mail. No, I just love it. Yeah. But one of the things that you asked me in the interview, I think it was like the final question is, you know, what is your perspective on animal advocacy and animal rights? And, you? And I very honestly said that was not the impetus for me getting into this lifestyle. It was purely selfish. It was

purely health-oriented. And so the whole idea of being sensitive or even aware to the issues that surround how our food is made and the clothes that we wear and, you know, so many aspects of how we live our lives, I was really kind of immunized from or just ignorant of. But, you know, this lifestyle is one of evolution and, you know, progress, not perfection and kind of evolving over time. And as I've continued to, you know, take this journey and educate myself further, I have become much more interested and aware and passionate about the kind of issues that you've been speaking to for a long, long time. So this conversation is long overdue. And yeah, I'm honored that you take the time to sit here and talk to me about some of the things that you guys do here. So let's just jump into it.

I mean, what's active right now? Like what is on the plate that's heated up at the moment? Well, there's so much. You know, the SeaWorld campaign is a really big campaign for us. Blackfish came out, as you know, last year and really blew the lid off the marine mammal in captivity industry specifically. Yeah, I mean, that movie had such a huge impact on changing people's minds about that issue. Oh, yeah.

I mean, SeaWorld is suffering mightily, especially this year. And, you know, airlines, for example, have stopped doing any sponsorships or promotions of SeaWorld. Virgin America is the most recent one, but JetBlue, United Airlines, Southwest, they advertise. Stocks have dropped. I didn't even know that airlines did advertising for SeaWorld. I know. I know most people don't know that, but they, you know, they'll do, they promote places to go when you travel to, you know, a certain city, they'll promote destinations in that city and they'll get paid for it by whatever the amusement park is or whatever or hotel chain.

So our work is when we have a campaign like we have against SeaWorld is that we research all those things. Who are they tied to? Who are some of the corporate sponsors? And we've written to all of them. And, you know, it's just, it's really nice. I've been at PETA for 22 years. And so it's a completely different world today than it was when I started.

Now we write to a corporation like Virgin America, for example, and say, you know, here's Blackfish. Here's what we know to be true. Here's our website, seaworldofhurt.com. Please check this out and consider, you know, severing ties with this abusive industry. And they listen now. What did it used to be like? It was very hard to get a foot in the door or get a seat at the table to even have the

conversation. We were ignored a lot. We were mocked a lot. People just thought, oh, these animal lovers, they'll go away. And I think one of the things that I've loved about PETA for all the years I've worked here is that we're tenacious. We'll take a bite of something and we won't let go. And we have a really good, I mean, you know this very well. We live in a time of social media, which there's a bad side to that too, I know. But for us, it's been amazing because we've been able to win campaigns over social media just through Twitter or just through Instagram or that kind of thing. Our Facebook posts are wildly popular. So we're very savvy in that area. And I think we now have a reputation

for being very savvy and for allowing people to see what's going on behind closed doors like we weren't able to do when we were a younger organization. Yeah. I mean, I think savviness is really a touchstone of everything that you guys have done because you've been forced to be scrappy. I remember before you moved into this beautiful building that we're sitting in going to your offices in the prior building. And I was amazed at how small it was because you guys pack such a huge punch. Everybody knows PETA. Everybody is aware of what PETA is going on. And I was amazed at how small it was because you guys pack such a huge punch. Everybody knows PETA. Everybody is aware of what PETA is going on. And the campaigns that you do garner so much press, positive and negative, controversial, what have you.

But I was envisioning like a giant complex of thousands of people working. And then when I realized, when we talked, I realized that the organization is actually much smaller than I had conjured up in my mind. And I think that scrappiness sort of, you know, through the work that you do and Dan and Ingrid has really, you know, been about how to leverage people, you know, sort of the celebrities and whatnot to, you know, kind of rally behind the positions that you're taking that creates so much more of an impact than you would be able to do on your own. Absolutely. And the thing, I mean, I really credit the staff here too, because it is a relatively small staff when you consider how much we take on and how much we accomplish, but it's, we've not lost our scrappiness and we never will. I mean, we are, we're activists first, you know. And I think with the SeaWorld campaign again, you know, they made the shocking decision last year to have a float in both the Macy's Day Parade

and the Rose Parade in Pasadena here. And that was a rather ridiculous decision on their part. And they may do it again this year. Because they're just opening themselves up to all kinds of criticism. The world is protesting SeaWorld. And so they're putting themselves on an international stage, celebrating the type of animal abuse that takes place at their amusement parks every single day. So we're a really good protest organization. We have not lost touch with our roots, but we've also become more sophisticated using social media,

working with wonderful celebrities. Our undercover investigations are more thorough and we have a better way of getting our video footage out than we ever have. I mean, you probably read about recently, and this wasn't an undercover investigation. What we did was we went to the National Institutes of Health and we did a Freedom of Information Act request saying, did was we went to the National Institutes of Health and we did a Freedom of Information Act request saying, we want all of your video footage of maternal deprivation and I'm sorry, yeah, maternal deprivation and separation experiments and addiction studies you've been doing on monkeys and other animals. And they tried to charge us tens of thousands of dollars for it. And we went back to them and said, well, you know, you're not allowed to do that.

Right. Under FOIA, it's free, right? Exactly. So they... It might take a while, but... not allowed to do that. Right, under FOIA, it's free, right? Exactly. It might take a while. Yeah, exactly. Right. And we ended up getting 500 hours of footage from them. And, you know, the findings are up on our website, and that footage was seen all over the world,

some of the worst stuff that you could ever imagine seeing. And now, you know, our website is wildly popular. We launched PETA Latino a few years ago, and the NIH maternal separation video is one of the most viewed videos on PETA Latino as well. And then the media, of course. We work with the media, you know, around the world, and they picked up on this story because it's shocking to see

that NIH is still spending millions of dollars doing experiments they were doing in the 1950s, the Harry Harlow experiments, where they either kill a mother monkey or in these cases they were drugging these mother monkeys to see how it affected the babies who thought they were dead. It's heartbreaking stuff. I mean, that's the point of those experiments? Yeah. To understand the relationship between the mother and the baby, and then they addict the mothers to alcohol and some drugs and that type of thing. And then, of course, the outcome is drug abuse, alcohol abuse is bad. And then meanwhile, you've got people out there who are suffering from horrible mental disorders

that affect them and affect their families and affect society on the whole. People dealing with addiction issues every day that can't get into treatment centers because they're wildly expensive. There's a huge neglected population of people all around the world, but in this country specifically, because the funds aren't there. Well, the funds are there. They're just misdirected. Exactly. Right. In antiquated systems that are proving nothing. Exactly. Except the funds are there. They're just misdirected. Exactly. Right. In antiquated systems

that are proving nothing. Exactly. Except the obvious. Yeah. And making experimenters money and making money for the people who build the cages and, you know, that kind of thing. But that our government is spending the money there when there are people in need. It's, you know, it's shocking. And there was a very good response to that and still continues to be to that campaign of ours. Interesting. And back to the SeaWorld tip, I mean, I think their stock is down like 30% right now. And, you know, I think in a prior decade, you know, I don't know if the public would have been ready for something like Blackfish.

There's something about the zeitgeist right now where there was just an openness in mainstream society to embrace that film, which was very well done, of course, and very powerful that it's just been received on such an enormous level. So, you know, the kind of things that PETA is doing are now being perceived differently than maybe they would have been in the 90s or the 80s, I think. And you have got, you know, like when Steve-O climbs up on the sign and covers up, you know, puts SeaWorld Sucks up there and everyone's like applauding, you know, that would have been like this super radical kind of thing to do not that many years ago where people would have said, you know, get rid of that crazy guy.

Yeah. Yeah. Not that long ago. I mean, when, you know, not that long ago, people were saying to us or corporations like we're going to them on fur saying stop, you know, selling fur, stop designing with fur. And their response typically was, if we do this, you're going to come after our leather shoes. And of course our response then was, well, probably, but let's just do one thing at a time. And now we are, which when we talk about vegan, you know, vegan living as an organization,

we're telling people, it's not just what you eat. It's what you put on your feet. It's your jacket. It's what you wear. And our audience is receptive. I mean, more young people just couldn't imagine wearing fur now. And then we've done investigations into the down industry recently. We did an investigation into the Angora industry. We got most corporations to discontinue selling it. The big names like Ralph Lauren, Calvin Klein, Gap, H&M, all of them discontinued. They pulled Angora off the shelves because of our investigation into China Angora farms, which is where most of it's produced. So explain what happens with Angora. Yeah. Well, Angora, what happens is they have these beautiful rabbits, angora furs from rabbits. I think a lot of people don't even know that.

And they take the animals and they tie them down and they grab fistfuls of their fur and they literally rip it from their bodies. And in our investigation, which you can see at PETA.org. While the animals are still alive. Oh, yeah, they're still alive. And screaming. And, I mean, it's like having your hair pulled out. And then the animals are thrown back in the cage where often they'll die from the elements because it's just, or from dehydration or starvation, they go into shock.

It is the most horrifying thing you can even think to imagine. And the world responded appropriately. Corporations responded appropriately. That's interesting. I mean, I think so much of it goes back to the advent of the internet, because I think with the internet comes this increased demand for transparency in everything, corporate transparency. And that applies to how our food is produced, manufactured and distributed, how our clothes are made, everything. And I think as especially young people become accustomed to that kind of transparency and sort of lack of privacy that comes with that, I mean, it's certainly a new generation kind of thing. It becomes increasingly intolerable when companies out there are refusing to be transparent.

when companies out there are refusing to be transparent. Whereas in the past, there was no mechanism to educate people about what was going on. There was no demand for it. And now there is, and it's forcing these companies to abandon their old guard tactics and techniques and kind of enter into this new world where they're compelled to because there's so much pressure on social media to fess up or be honest and accountable. That's right. And the cool thing about that is they don't really want to be accountable for the things they're doing because it's ugly in a lot of cases. And it's all set up to prevent us from understanding how these things are made or

produced. That's right. And it's interesting too, because a us from understanding how these things are made or produced. That's right. And it's interesting, too, because a new frontier for us, of course, is that as a result of people caring about where their food comes from, for example, corporations are coming back and promoting this crazy thing called, quote, unquote, humane meat. And, of course, we know there's no such thing as that. They all go to the same slaughterhouses. They're all in the same types of transport trucks. And so we're really pushing now for some transparency. You call yourself humane. Let's see that slaughter.

Let people know exactly what humane means when you're killing an animal because it's never going to be a sustainable way of doing things. And the new documentary, Cowspiracy, points that out beautifully. It's a great documentary. I know you are promoting like we are. Yes, yes. Fantastic. And yeah, it looks at, it's sort of through the lens of a guy who's trying to educate himself about how livestock agriculture works. And it's posited to him, well, there's this idea of sustainable meat and these sort of sustainable farms where there's these vast amounts of pastures where the beef, you know,

the cattle graze on grass and it's all wonderful. And he kind of looks into it and he's like, well, it's not really actually what's going on. There's a lot of obfuscation there to try to convince people that this is really a humane thing. So they feel better about their purchases when the reality tells a very different story. Yeah, exactly. When I was at that premiere and you were there, I could barely sit in my chair. I just wanted to leap out of my chair and applaud over and over because of that film. Cowspiracy is just, it's shedding a light where a light needs to be focused. And that's that there are a lot of people, really well-intentioned people out there who don't want animals to suffer, but they're looking for that. Well, you know, is there a type of meat I can eat? And our answer

to that has always been, no, it's never going to be the case. He quote unquote, humane meat, which doesn't exist. But the idea of it is like saying, well, you know, I kicked the dog six times instead of seven. Certainly it's better. Sure. The dog is going to prefer having one less, you know, jolt to his jaw, but it's, it's always going to be wrong. It's going to be bad. And that's, this movie just points that out beautifully. But the thing of it is too, is like, it's easy to watch. Cowspiracy is easy to watch. Yeah. It's not like watching Earthlings. It's not, you know, it's, it's, it takes a very different approach to introducing people to these ideas in a pretty graceful, accessible way. Well, yeah, and it's very interesting, too, because there are so many people who come to, you know, vegetarianism, veganism, specifically through their concerns about the environment.

done going to NRDC and Greenpeace and saying, well, hey, we know that animal agriculture is the largest destroyer of the environment from the ground to the water we drink to the air we breathe. Why is there nothing on your websites? Why do you have no campaigns targeting what is the largest polluter of our world? And he's very respectful about it. He wants real answers. Yeah, he's very earnest in that regard. And even after watching it the first time before the premiere, I got involved with the movie after it was completed just to kind of hop on and help promote and raise awareness of it. And I said to Kip and Keegan, like, hey, I know people at the various at the various, you know, sort of organization, like-minded organizations out there, similar to PETA, but different. Let me reach out to them, see if we can get some support. Because they were like, well, Lisa at PETA is, you know, she's putting the word out. She's doing a great job. I said, well, let's reach out to some of

these others. And they're like, yeah, they're not going to, you know, they're not going to bite. And I was like, really? I was like, I don't know. Let me, let me try. And I did, I're not going to bite. And I was like, really? Yeah. I was like, I don't know. Let me try. And I did. I'm not going to name names, but they all said we can't get behind the movie. And it really made me realize in that moment, like, this sort of conspiracy posited that there really is this concerted effort to, you know, really not be upfront in addressing, you know, what goes on in this industry is true. Like it's full on, it's for real. And I think that not only the animals are not served when you don't ask for everything you want on their behalf, but it also, it's disingenuous. You get less if you don't ask for everything that they deserve. It's not our right to say, well, can we just make sure that death comes a little quicker? Or can we just make sure that the cages are a little bigger?

PETA will support animal welfare measures, absolutely. Make the cages bigger, free range, give them more room to walk around. But that is not the end goal. That should never be. They're not our lives to barter with. I mean, it's not okay. So for any organization that says the end goal is that we'll just, you know, we say, you know, we don't want cages with pillows. We want empty cages.

And the public responds, but you have to tell them, sorry, this is the truth here, you know? Right. And I think that brings up kind of the basic Pita philosophy, which is very absolutist. Of course, you're going to embrace progress, you know, but the end goal is perfection. It is absolutist in that regard. And you are like the pit bull that won't's lovely, and she said to say hello. Oh, good. Yeah, sure.

But she has a very kind of, you know, like ease into it kind of perspective, which is more palatable for the average person as kind of a welcome mat to introducing this lifestyle. For sure. Whereas you guys are taking a pretty hardcore stance and that creates a lightning rod for controversy. It exposes you to, you know, it provides space for the Bill O'Reillys of the world to get up there and shout from the mountaintops about how radical you guys are. Right, which is fine.

Yeah, which is fine. You guys welcome it. It really is like any press is good press kind of thing in some regard. And some of your campaigns are very specifically kind of conceptualized to attract that kind of attention. Yeah, because the worst thing that can happen is people stop talking about animals and what's going on. And the thing that's wonderful, too, about Kathy, she recognizes that there are people out there that are not going to go vegan overnight. We don't say everybody will. The thing that she never shies away from is that a vegan life is the end goal. She suggests that that is the way to go.

Of course. You need to take your time, whatever. But there are other groups out there that don't do that, which is, you know, again, this isn't to take away from the good things that they're doing. But for us, it's like, well, we're not going to shy away from what the actual answer is. You know, I mean, and that is they're not ours to eat, wear, use for experimentation or entertainment purposes or abuse in any way. I mean, they value their lives just like we do. They value their families like we do. And we have to recognize that.

And once we recognize that, I mean, animal rights really is about equal consideration based on the other's needs. We should do that with one another. You know, an elderly person's needs are going to be different than a child's needs. But we have to take that into consideration with every person and every being we know. My dog doesn't need to be able to drive or vote, but, you know, she wants to sleep with me every night. She wants to have a good meal and, you know, go for long hikes. So that's really what it's all about. And the other thing is, is that you, you know, all voices are important, you know, it's sort of Kathy's voice is important, but your voice is important as well.

They both have their place in this kind of exchange of ideas, and you can't have one without the other. You know, Kathy's voice doesn't exist without your voice and the voice of PETA and vice versa. Yeah. So, you know, it's all important, I think. Yeah. And, you know, we need somebody who's towing the hard line. And, you know, it brings up a very specific scene in Cowspiracy where Richard Oppenlander is asked the question, well, what's wrong? You know, he's hardcore. Yes, he is.

But he knows his shit. Yes, he does. You know what I mean? Like he's on the case. And somebody says, well, you know, isn't Meatless Monday a great idea? And everybody's embracing Meatless Monday. And he said, well, that's just sort of cosigning on saying it's okay to do the wrong thing six days out of seven, you know? And it's like, oh, yeah, actually I didn't really think about that. So it's that juxtaposition

of the hard line with the soft landing pad. Yeah. And that's the, you know, we don't do meatless Mondays. I mean, but we recognize that when they happen, like LA City tries to make sure that down at City Hall, they promote Meatless Mondays. That's lovely. That is a great thing to do. We believe in Meatless Mondays through Sundays. Meatless Mondays through Sundays. You know, because it is somehow, it's like permission to eat meat six days a week. I mean, when he said it, it was like that's exactly right.

And I think that it's also asking too little of people. Anyone can do one day without meat or, well, it is. That's news to a lot of people, though. I guess it is. You know what I mean? Like there's a lot of people that it's just so, it's still super radical to them. But what they don't. We're in our cocoon, you know?

Yeah, yeah. Except that what I think a lot of people don't realize is people tend to eat a lot of vegetarian food. You know, they don't necessarily recognize, I mean, unhealthy people are eating a lot of fast food and burgers and fried chicken and that kind of thing, for sure. But your average, you know, but there are a lot of people out there that are having a salad for lunch or are having lots of vegetables and, you know, uh, and cutting out meat. If you're making lasagna, you decide to make pasta and you don't, you put like field roast in

it, you know, or a Gardein. That's like the easiest thing in the world to do. That's not always been the case. Like, you know, when PETA was founded and when I hopped on board, That's not always been the case. Like, you know, when PETA was founded and when I hopped on board, certainly being vegan was a lot harder than it is now. But now it's just the easiest thing in the world. Any grocery store is going to give you those mock meats if you really like the texture. And you and I have talked about that before. Right. Because you're kind of down to the basics, eat the veggies and health, you know, you're a healthy, healthy eater.

I assume you still are. Yeah, of course. But, but, you know, I think that the Gardeins and the, you know, the sort of faux meats and all of that have their place for people that are transitioning. And I don't recommend that you stick with that in the long term, but if that's what you need in order to feel okay about making the switch, then I think that's a fantastic thing. And it's interesting to see kind of the dialogue that surrounds these sorts of products, like the most recent one, and I was talking to Kathy about this yesterday, is the Stanford professor that came up with the stuff that tastes like blood that will be infused into the burger, so it tastes more like a real burger.

And it's polarizing. You know, some people, you know, somebody who's been vegan for their whole life or 20 years or whatever, they've lost the desire to have that taste. So that's sort of, you know, unpalatable to them or a turnoff versus the guy who's been eating burgers every single day for his whole life. And that might be a good way to try to transition a person like that. Yeah. And, you know, there's in vitro meat too. I mean, and from a health perspective, you don't, you know, it's going to be better for people because you don't have the antibiotics and all the other stuff.

But, and for me, I wouldn't eat, I don't need it. I don't want it. I was a huge meat eater, huge. My dad's Cajun. My mom comes from sheep herding family in Wyoming. You know, we ate meat and very few vegetables when I was growing up. It was really bad stuff, you know? So I get it is what I'm saying. And unfortunately I never got my dad to go vegetarian. My, my mom and my brother are, and you know, I lost my dad a couple of years ago. And I think people are starting to realize that so much is linked to what. And, you know, I lost my dad a couple of years ago. And I think people are

starting to realize that so much is linked to what we eat. You know, my dad died of prostate cancer. And it's not just the dying, it's the years of having it and feeling miserable, you know? Yeah, the years of degenerating health. That's right. That's right. And that's what I think people like to kind of say, well, I'm going to die of something someday. But it's like, yeah, but in the decades beforehand, do you really want to be in the hospital as much as you're going to be in the hospital? Do you really want to be that big a burden to your family? Do you want to feel that bad? It's not about the longevity. It's about the quality of life. And that's where those mock meets like

Gardein and Field Roast and Tofurky and all of that stuff is really good for people like my dad. Because we finally told my dad Thanksgiving's vegan. And he was good with it, you know. He was all right. He was all right with it. He was. One day out of the year. Yeah, exactly.

Well, Christmas too. So we just made this really great, you know, food that was like stick to your ribs. Everything that you eat at Thanksgiving without, you know, the dead bird in the middle of the table. You know, and he really liked that stuff. It was just, you know, he was from Abbeville, Louisiana, and those old habits die hard, you know. Right. But it's so much easier now than it used to be. It is. And it's interesting to see technology kind of take this on and look at it from a different perspective and try to create new solutions to replace this sort of antiquated way of producing food, which is livestock agriculture. It's not sustainable. It's not healthy.

It's wasteful. It's deleterious to the planet. Like in every category, you can check the box as to why we shouldn't be doing it. And the reason it exists, it's just because it always has and people are used to it. But, you know, it's time to really take a hard look at that system and say, is this really what we want to choose? Yeah. And, you know, to get back to Cowspiracy, because I'm just so madly in love with that documentary. The thing that I walked away thinking I think the most was if I were a parent or a grandparent, I would be so frightened of the world we are leaving to our kids. And I want parents to see that movie more than anybody, because it's happening fast. We're destroying the world really quickly.

And most people are kind of noticing, boy, it's October 15th and it's really hot. And the air quality is really bad. And you look at places like Beijing and you think, that's unlivable. You can't breathe that air. I mean, it's happening now. It's not happening tomorrow. We're not saying, oh, in two decades, it's going to be difficult to catch your breath. No, that's like right now. And I look at people with small children and I think you got to jump on board because the other nice thing about the movie was it pointed out how optimistic we should be.

If people changing your light bulb to another light bulb or using less toilet paper or whatever it is, using recycling, all good stuff. I do it all myself. But it's not going to make the changes we need to make. It has to be in what we eat. It's not the car you drive as much as what's on your plate when you sit down for breakfast. But if people jump on board quickly, it happens quickly. That's why everybody has to see this film. I think they will.

Yeah, I do too. They're going to. Yeah. There's some exciting stuff happening with it right now. So pretty cool. I'll tell you off record. Okay, good, good, good. Yeah. Yeah, it is exciting. So, but let's take it back. I mean, you know, how does this all start from you? If you're growing up, you know, eating meat and, you know, living on this farm, I mean,

what was the impetus for you to sort of adopt this lifestyle? Yeah, for me, it was, my mom was very social justice oriented, justice oriented, you know, and everything she taught a lot of life lessons. She, you know, she catered, I mean, not catered, she tutored us a lot at home and, you know, French lessons from the time we were young. She was a stay-at-home mom, which we were very lucky, my brother and I. And some of the lessons she taught us were to just be kind to other people, to animals, to the ants on the sidewalk, to the cats we had in our household, that kind of thing.

And it just stuck with me. And I loved animals. We always had companion cats, you know, we had a bunny when I was young. And so then just as time went on and I just learned more and I remember getting a PETA magazine when I was a teenager. And then when I went to college, I volunteered at the local animal shelter. And it was just like, it was not some one magic thing. It was just kind of an awareness that grew for me. And I did the same thing so many people do. So when I was kind of getting into helping cats and dogs and that kind of thing, but I was still eating meat. And when I was 18, my boyfriend at the time had a vegetarian roommate. And I asked her once she was making chili. And I said, well, is there,

you're not putting meat in that? You know, the same questions people ask us. And she said, no, I'm a vegetarian. And I was like, oh, well, how do you know? So she just, she had patience with me. I hope I've been with others. And so then we went to lunch the next day and I ordered chicken, which is what people do. Right. And I said, oh, you don't eat chicken? And she said, well, no, that's an animal. And I was like, you know, I said the same silly things that I hear people say.

And then I realized, oh, yeah, that's right. And then I just looked into it more, and that was it for me. I was like, oh, no, I love animals. I can't eat them. Do you stay in touch with her? I do. You do? I do.

She catalyzed this insane activist. It must be crazy when she sees you on TV and stuff. And it all went back to that bowl of chili. Yes, it did. Yes. That's the thing. And she lives elsewhere now. And we did fall out of touch.

We saw each other a couple of years ago. And I have told her. I'm like, you know, you did it. That discussion over that big pot of chili that got the whole thing going, you know, and, and then people have just contributed ideas like, you know, all my life. And I just, I think the thing is. But it wasn't an overnight thing. No.

You know, I think that that's important to point out, you know, certainly there are many people that have this sort of, you know, immediate epiphany and they change everything overnight. But that's not the normal course of affairs. No. And I just think the important thing is that people should be open to it. Just listen and learn. And the more you do... That should apply to everything.

Absolutely. All the time for everybody in all circumstances. Yeah. I think, and this again I think comes from my mom, but it's just like, I've always thought when it comes to all kinds of issues that if someone tells me there's a company that's doing something unjust or they support, you know, they supported Prop 8 or something and keeping it, you know, against gay marriage, I'm not going to shop there. You know, I'll look into it and make

sure it's true and all that. I mean, there are people that I trust, but it's just the easiest thing in the world to do. I will just simply shop somewhere else. I will just simply eat something else. If I find that it's causing suffering for somebody else, it's the easiest thing in the world to do. But when you were a kid, there wouldn't even be the ability to know the difference. There was the nightly news, you know, and there was the newspaper. That's right. That's basically it, unless you're going to go to the library and find some old book. But now you can, you know, go to vice.com or you can follow anonymous on Twitter and you can, you know, do your own research. And the information is out there for people that are

inclined and interested. And so it goes back to that idea of the demand for transparency. And again, to the young people, because they're really open to it because they want to know the truth and they want to do the right thing. Yeah, they really do. And that's why our P2 division, which is our youth division, has just, it's astounding how many students of all ages. I mean, we have PETA kids and then we have PETA 2, which is like the 13 to 22-year-olds. So on college campuses, right now we're touring the country

with something called iChicken, and it's very cool. So we have folks who go on to campuses. We've been to Harvard and Brown and NYU and Berkeley, and we're going all over the country. onto campuses. We've been to Harvard and Brown and NYU and Berkeley, and we're going all over the country. And your kids come to the display and you put on these goggles and headphones, and you get to, for a couple of minutes, live the life of a chicken. In a cage. Well, it starts on a farm. And then the chicken gets plucked and thrown onto a transport truck

and taken to the slaughterhouse. And it's not gory at all. So you feel what it's like to be out with your friends in the field. And then you feel the fear. And you see what it's like to watch your other chicken friends go through this process that is so frightening for billions of chickens every year. And, again, we don't punch people in the face with it. It's kind of a sweet experience. But it's been having a tremendous effect on college students because the whole idea is just, you know, walk for, in this case, three minutes in the footsteps of an animal and

see what they go through. Right. You have this like virtual reality. It's virtual reality. Yeah, it is. And it's the first of its kind. It's really awesome. And I did it myself. And kids are responding to it beautifully. And that is really where the change is happening because they're demanding now. I mean, the vegan cafeterias at college campuses, it's unbelievable. Right, right, right. You know, they're demanding it, and so they're getting it. And then they don't go back. I mean, it's just, this is the way they eat.

And they don't even really think about it as much anymore. It's just like, yeah, I'm vegan, you know, which for us was, you know, a completely different thing, you know? Right, right, right. So how many, I mean, are you able to know how many young people are sort of in the PETA camp or can you, I mean, you have like 3 million members total, right? Yeah. And for youth, oh, my gosh, like we go on Warped Tour, for example, and we get people to sign up for texts and to be on our street teams. And so there are different categories of activism, really, but it's hundreds of thousands of students and kids of different ages. They're fighting dissection in their high schools. They're getting vegan dining halls on their campuses. They're doing actions against SeaWorld.

Young, young kids are asking their schools to discontinue field trips to the circus or field trips to SeaWorld and that kind of thing. I mean, it's just amazing to watch what students are doing. It must be really gratifying for you too, because you've been in this for so long. Like you've seen the arc, you know, you've seen the evolution. I mean, I think you first got involved with PETA. How old were you? Well, with PETA, I was 26, but I was with Sea Shepherd Conservation Society. Oh, you were? I didn't know you were with Sea Shepherd before that.

Yes, yes. Still one of my favorite organizations. And then I also wrote for the Animals Voice magazine. So right out of college, I got involved in animal rights, and it was my focus. So, yeah, I mean, it's a completely different world. Right. It's so nice. From meeting, I think, didn't you meet Ingrid in a jail cell?

I did. I did. Yes, that's how I was hired. Yeah. Yeah, we were protesting. It was in 1992. And I was writing for the Animal's Voice magazine, which is unfortunately no longer in existence. told me I could fly to Pennsylvania to cover this pigeon shoot that took place in Higgins, Pennsylvania every year where about 8,000 birds were shot out of the sky by mostly drunk hunters

on Labor Day. And because the magazine was no longer going to be around, I was able to go and be a part of the civil disobedience. And so about 50 of us ran out onto the field to rescue the birds, or in my case, I ran distraction. So right before they—basically, it was a live skeet shoot. So they would load these poor, dehydrated, starving birds that they'd been capturing for weeks prior to the shoot into these cages, and they would yell whatever it is they yell, and people would free the birds. The birds would fly, or they'd be catapulted up out of these cages, and they'd be shot out of the sky. And the wounding rate was 60%.

So, I mean, most of these animals were shot and died from their wounds. They weren't even killed outright, which is still appalling, but, I mean, to know that they suffered. They'd have their heads pulled off by 12-year-old kids and from the neighboring communities. And so anyway, I ended up in jail. And for 12 days with Ingrid, I was in the same sub-block as PETA's founder and president, Ingrid Newkirk.

And she hired you in the jail. She did. Yeah. She gave me the job offer. And I knew going in that I wanted to work for PETA. And there was a job that happened to be open in managing the campaigns department. She gave me the job offer, and I knew going in that I wanted to work for PETA. And there was a job that happened to be open in managing the campaigns department, so we had 12 days to get to know each other,

and she interviewed me in the corner of the cell block, and the rest is history. You've been here ever since? Yep. So 20 years? 22 years. Wow. 22 years. And Dan has been here just as long, right? Longer.

Or longer. Yeah. How long has it been for him? I think it's like it's close to 30 if it's not 30 already. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, he's amazing too. I mean, I listened to a podcast with him a while ago with Alec Baldwin.

Did you listen to that? Yeah, yeah, yeah. It was great. And the story that he told about Calvin Klein was amazing. You know, how he convinced Calvin Klein to stop using fur was riveting. And it goes back to what you were saying about, you know, the pit bull that doesn't let go because he was so tenacious and was really able to, you know, change that guy's mind, this leader in the fashion industry. And it speaks to, you know, the results that you get when you do decide that you're going to be the one who's

going to be uncompromising. Right? But you have to be smart about it too. You know what I mean? It's not just creating a ruckus for the sake of creating a ruckus. There has to be an end goal. You have to know what you're aiming for. And with Calvin Klein, I was at that protest. I was one of the people who did the, the, the, it ended up being a sit-in. And. Right. So just walk us through the story because it's a, it's an interesting story. Yeah. So we had, and, and is, is always our way. We'd been communicating with Calvin Klein and asked him, showed him the evidence of what happens to animals on fur farms and asked him to stop designing with it. And he was unresponsive. And so we went to his offices in New York and decided to do a sit-in and on his bright white wall that said, you know, it says Calvin Klein and one of us spray painted kills animals underneath it.

And a reporter went up with us and then several people just sat in his office and occupied his office. And, you know, that's a tactic that you use in protests in general when they won't sit down with you and they won't do the right thing based on the evidence that they're provided. And I think that it's really important for people to understand that tactics are used because they work and because they're needed because someone needed a wake-up call. And in that case, Calvin Klein was, he was really quite wonderful. I mean, he called us within a couple of days, sat down with Dan, and within a week, he was no longer designing with Fert, and he's never gone back to it. And he understood. And he's like friends with Dan now. That's right. I mean, the case there was like, it was, I think that he understood that he

would, he was kind of, I mean, frankly, people are busy, you know, and they're doing their own thing and they're not paying attention to something. And sometimes you've got to rattle the cage a little bit to say, Hey, listen, I'm talking to you, you know? And that was a good instance of that. And, um, so, you know, I think that people need to realize that sometimes you've got to maybe be a little uncomfortable and do something that you're – confrontation is not a comfortable thing. And it isn't for everybody. And that's another great thing about social media is that you don't have to be a, quote, unquote, street activist, someone who's going to go and protest out in front of the circus to have a really tremendous effect. But there's this conscious decision that gets made on occasion to cross the legal boundary, right? So, for example, in the case of Calvin Klein, you make this decision you're going to defame his logo, like, in his offices and occupy it.

So you're breaking the law. You're consciously and willingly breaking the law. There was a conscious decision to do that. And you were all arrested for that, right? Yeah. You went to jail for however long for that. And I think, you know, when you say the name PETA, a lot of people will just immediately think of, you know, crazed people throwing fake blood on, you know, people in fur coats walking down the street. They have some idea, right, that that's what it's all about. So, you know, I'm interested in getting a little bit more clarity in letting people know kind of what the core mission is

and maybe disabusing people of, you know, that sort of, you know, misguided ideal. Yeah. I mean, most of what we do isn't the fancy stuff. Most of what we do isn't, you know, people aren't necessarily hearing about, we do so much behind the scenes negotiating and strategizing, you know? So, I mean, the vast majority of corporations that come along on the SeaWorld campaign, for example, I mentioned a number of the airlines and, you know, or the, you know, more than 1200 companies are no longer testing their products on animals.

You know, and the good news recently, too, is that the entire country of India has banned cosmetic testing on animals. Yeah, that's amazing. And they just announced that they're also not going to allow the importation of any products that were tested on animals. And that is a PETA campaign. That is something that we've been working on. And that is not a huge protest campaign. That's just a lot of education. So, so many of our victories happen because we are sitting down with people or we're using social media, that kind of thing. Protest happens when, you know, a Ringling Brothers comes along and

Kenneth Feld does not care that those animals live in chains and that they're beaten with bullhooks every day. It just doesn't even register for him. But where it does register is with people. And when mothers, for example, hear about how the way a baby elephant is trained, because they have to get them early to start paying attention to the person instead of paying attention to their own mother, is they physically separate them from their mothers. And this, remember, is an animal who will stay with their families and their herd their entire lives. So baby elephants are taken from their mothers forcibly in chains. They're forced to do things that are uncomfortable for them, scary for them, standing on their heads.

Yeah. They're not naturally inclined to do all these tricks. They have to be browbeaten into them. That's right. So a bullhook is used on a baby elephant from a very, very young age. Right. So explain what the bullhook is. Oh, yeah. So the bullhook is a long metal rod that's about the size of a fireplace poker.

And on the end of it, it has a hook that's very, very sharp. And it's used to intimidate elephants. They're hit normally on their ears, which are very thin and very sensitive, between their toes, behind their legs, on their trunks, where they're most able. And then, you know, on their entire bodies, basically, to make them move. And, you know, they're beaten with them. And it is, it's the way elephants in the circus live, besides the fact that they are separated from their families. Is this specific to Ringling Brothers, or is this a practice that occurs in basically any circus that has an elephant? It's any circus that has an elephant, unfortunately.

We're working, you know, to try to get, there's a guy named Hugo, Hugo Libel that has an elephant. It's any circus that has an elephant, unfortunately. We're working to try to get... There's a guy named Hugo Leibel that has this poor elephant named Nosy who is suffering terribly. One of the leading killers of captive elephants is arthritis. They get terrible arthritis in their feet and they get other infections on their feet because they're standing on hard surfaces their entire lives and they also don't move like they feet because they're standing on hard surfaces their entire lives, and they also don't move like they should because they're usually chained. And so it is the leading cause of death in captive elephants is foot problems, foot ailments, whether they're infections or arthritis, and noses suffering from it terribly. Karen and Nicole are two female elephants with Ringling that are on tour,

constantly performing, and have arthritis. ringling that are on tour constantly performing and have arthritis. And there's laws in place, right, to protect performance animals who are ill or injured, correct? But the problem is that these circuses move around and the states have different laws and it becomes very difficult to police. That's right. Who's in charge of sort of oversight? Like what government agency is supposed to be paying attention to this? Well, unfortunately, it's the USDA, which is, you know, the agency is failing animals on every single front.

This is an agency that is responsible for how animals are treated in slaughterhouses and in circuses, you know, and they're doing none of it right. I mean, it's just USDA did slap Ringling Brothers with a $270,000 fine a few years ago, which is the largest fine ever levied against an animal circus by the USDA. And that was also because basically of a change of the guard there, right? Like when Obama came into office, wasn't there something about the new chief there? What happened? Wasn't there something about the new chief there? Well, I think... What happened? Yeah, I think more than anything, it was just like we were at the USDA over and over and over and over again.

I mean, we are basically doing their job for them. We are handing in the information, the proof of the violations of the Animal Welfare Act. So back to your question, basically, there is an Animal Welfare Act that dictates a number of things on a federal level. How animals should be slaughtered, that they should be rendered unconscious before feeling pain in the laboratory, how they need to be treated, how elephants need to be treated in the circus. So it's all, well, a lot of it, and there are minimal standards, by the way. It's not an animal rights document by any stretch of the imagination. And the USDA is responsible for enforcing the Animal Welfare Act. And they simply don't.

They just don't do it. And that's because they're bought and paid for? I mean, what is, you know, or is it lack of funds? It's lack of interest? Is it because they're in the back pocket of the lobbying groups that support the big agricultural companies? Or what's going on behind the curtain? I think it's a little bit of everything, actually. It's that they're not motivated to do the right thing.

But they also are understaffed. So if you have a couple of inspectors responsible for all of the circuses that are touring, and Ringling itself has, I think, four touring units, maybe it's three, but it's, you know, they don't have enough inspectors to be there. But they're also not doing the job when the evidence is handed over to them. So I think it is a little bit of everything. And again, the USDA answers to Congress. So if Congress wants to update the Animal Welfare Act, I mean, it actually takes Congress to do it. And that's where you start getting into their beholden, to their biggest donors and to industry. And so that's why. It's a political loser.

That's right. That's right. No good will come of it for a guy who's trying to get elected. He's just trying to coast by and cause as little, much of a storm as possible so that he can get elected for his next term. And that's why with PETA, we do very little to no legislative work because where we see the change happening is in the consumer.

We're going directly to the consumer and saying, you know what, the government's going to fail these animals, but you don't have to. When you sit down to breakfast, you can decide that you're going to help those animals in slaughterhouses by simply not eating the rotting corpses, you know, and by simply not going to the circus or by going to SeaWorld and only using household products and cosmetics that are not tested on animals. And the legislation will come, right? And it is happening, right? Isn't there an orca protection law that's being debated at the moment? I don't know what the latest is with that.

Yeah. I mean, it's really very similar to the sea. You know, what's going on with Ringling Brothers and the elephants is so analogous to SeaWorld and the whales. I mean, it's the same thing, essentially. That's right. And I think the level of awareness created by that movie could easily spill over into this issue. And it is. Yeah.

It definitely is. All these documentaries are so great because they're getting in and just taking kind of, you know, Gabriela Cowperthwaite. I'm sure she has an opinion about SeaWorld now, but she didn't go into it with one. She was fascinated by, she's a director, I'm sorry, of Blackfish. So she was fascinated by these stories about Tilikum, the whale who killed Don Branchow, the trainer in, I think, 2010. She was kind of fascinated like we all were by that story. And she went in and then she delved, and then she had to deal with those people from SeaWorld, you know, who really don't want the transparency that you're talking about. And it's interesting too, because there's a Marine Mammal Protection Act that dictates how

marine mammals should be treated and held in captivity. And the National Marine Fishery Service is responsible for overseeing that and they ignore it. I mean, there are animals being transferred from park to park that are not being accounted for in the inventory that the Marine Mammal Protection Act is supposed to maintain. It's a farce. I mean, it's just the most ridiculous thing. So that's why it's important that people just say, you know what? I don't want any part of that. I don't want to pay for a corporation like SeaWorld to separate mother orcas from their babies, which is, you know, damage they feel for their entire lives. And it's working.

People are, by and large, pretty kind. And they don't want that type of thing to happen. It's an easy sell, though, when you're talking about these very noble animals like these incredible whales or the elephants or the dolphins and what's going on in Japan. But when you really think about it objectively and kind of take your, you know, sort of human subjective opinions about animals out of the equation, it's kind of insane that we do this species differentiation. I know.

Right? Like, well, it's okay to eat cattle, but it's not okay to eat a dog or a horse or a monkey. I know. Right? Like, well, it's okay to eat cattle, but it's not okay to eat a dog or a horse or a monkey. I know, it's so odd to me. It's very odd, right? But we're just culturally and socially kind of programmed to hold these beliefs that are kind of just not really real, right? It's interesting. And so I think it's important to shine the light on these. When you're talking about these amazing animals, it's much easier for people to get on board. It is. But then as you kind of go down the line of species and you start talking about chickens and pigeons and things like that, it becomes more challenging for people to kind of sort of

jump on the bandwagon. I mean, it's got to be more challenging, right? To get people excited about, you know. Rats in laboratories versus chimpanzees. Right. Yeah. And, you know, but thankfully that is changing. And, you know, when I worked for Sea Shepherd, which I loved, I focused on the captivity issue.

And there was a day that finally came for me where I was like, I feel like I'm championing the rights of very popular animals. And goodness knows, there's so much work to do there. I mean, you know, look at the Faroe Islands, look at what's going on in Japan with the wholesale slaughter of these dolphins and look what's going on at SeaWorld. But I felt inside me that I needed, I needed to speak up for the rat. There's no difference between him and my companion animals at home in terms of how they feel fear and pain. And they, you know, they want to avoid the knife just like I do. And so I think I remember too, not long after I started at PETA, HBO put out this amazing documentary and it was kind of in the early days of this type of thing going on.

And it was called Animals. I think it was called Animals to Love or to Kill. And what they did was took a look at the way animals are regarded in different cultures. And so they were in the Middle East. They were in the United States. They ended in the United States, which was interesting. They did this. They got horrible footage of dogs being killed in China. People went nuts.

Our phones were ringing off the hook about the dogs in China. And our response to them was, we're glad you were affected by this, but what we're asking you to do is now take a little bit of a leap and realize that exactly what you saw going on with dogs in slaughterhouses in China is going on with cows and chickens and pigs and turkeys here in this country. And there is no difference except for how we feel about them. And that can't be, and that's not enough. We have to consider who they are. And people are starting to. Right. Once you make the emotional connection with the animal, it changes. But again, it goes back to the system being structured to prevent that and the sort of dissonance that occurs because people don't want to know. They don't want to know because if they're challenged in that belief, they know deep down because we're all inherently compassionate that it might require that they're going to have to

change their behavior and people don't like to change. I don't like to change. I don't want to be told that there's yet another thing that I have to give up that I enjoy. I know, I know. That's natural. It's not popular. No, no. And I get it. Really, when you get down to brass tacks, the way I look at it kind of from a historical perspective is, you know, humans have evolved. Throughout the course of human history, we're slowly, you know, progressing in the expansion of civil rights. There's this gestalt of expanding civil rights, you know, and you look at slavery and what's happened there and kind of, you know, progressing it towards, you know, what's happening now with gay rights and gay marriage. And this is the next frontier of that. This is just a natural evolution of a growing, progressing civil rights movement to get people to expand their

awareness and understand that, you know, we share the planet with these other helpless beings and it's incumbent upon us to show greater compassion and responsibility for them. Yeah, absolutely. And you mentioned earlier, but I feel very grateful to have the perspective I have because just with 22 years at PETA, I remember there were all those discussions about, um, do animals feel pain, which was so odd. It's like, well, it's a scientific fact that they feel pain, you know, and it was, but it was just also new to people like, you know, just this new consideration that we were asking for. And now it's, it is, it is all part of just a greater awareness. It is that it's

the next part of the civil rights movement, as you say, although there's still so much work to be done on other issues too. But the thing that's nice about animal rights is we're not asking you to... You don't have to really do anything to bring about huge change. You actually have control in your life with what you eat and what you wear and what you buy at the store. You actually have control in your life with what you eat and what you wear and what you buy at the store. You don't even have to think about it beyond a shopping trip or grabbing something out of the fridge. Some of these other civil rights movements, they demand that you... We do have to get out there and protest and we do have to speak out and that kind of thing. For the gay rights movement, I've been very involved in that. And that is, it's not just enough to just kind of

sit and have a belief necessarily, you know, go out and get on the phones and go and protest and that kind of thing on behalf of people who maybe have a different lifestyle than you do. With animal rights activism, it's just simply the things that you choose to eat and buy. You don't even have to think about it once you know what you're doing. Well, and also there was this, you know, sort of idea that's now been debunked that you, that, well, we have to eat animals. We have to. It's just part of, you know, nature.

This is the natural cycle of things. And we're realizing like, no, actually, we don't have to. And actually, it's better if you don't. Right. It's better for the planet. It's better for your health. Right. Like it's a win-win in every category., it's better if you don't. Right. It's better for the planet. It's better for your health. Right. Like it's a win-win in every category.

Like it's a no-brainer. It's just, it's a new idea. It's an uncomfortable idea for people that are, you know, haven't been exposed to it before. Yeah. And, you know, people are so funny about their food. And this comes from someone who waited tables for years and years and years. So I know, you know, just people, they're just very, food is just a thing with people. Well, it's emotional.

It is. You know, it goes to the very core, you know, it goes to, you know, back to how you feel loved and how you give love. Yeah, yeah. And it goes to community and family. So it has its tentacles in a lot of complicated, you know, psychological avenues, I think. Yeah, yeah, it definitely does. And so you're really going into the lion's den there. I mean, it's like you're absolutely right.

It's tied to such emotion and tradition. And so when we're asking people, oh, yeah, you know, that thing you look forward to every year in November, Thanksgiving, that it's centered around this poor bird. Forty million of them are killed at Thanksgiving alone, 70 million in this country every year in horrible ways. And we're tapping them on the shoulder and going, oh, do you think you could try something vegetarian? And it's like, but my family and this has been in, this recipe has been in my family for so many years.

I mean, that was my family. We have those old family recipes that we used. And I went to my mom and said, you know, instead of putting the pork in that, we have a Basque recipe. My family's Basque. And this Basque stuffing recipe. And it called for sausage and, you know, chicken stock. And she said, well, tweak it, you know. And you can't tell the difference in the taste.

It was my grandmother's recipe. But people feel like it's asking a lot of them, but in the end, it is truly the easiest thing that you can do. What about this argument or idea that you hear from somebody who's an avid hunter who will say, well, there's, you know, these animals, we have population control that we need to enforce. Like there's too many deer. Like we need to hunt them.

This is actually a service that we're providing. Yeah, it's such a hooey. What is the counterpoint to that? I mean, what is the truth behind that? Yeah, I mean, I love the whole idea. We need to kill to prevent them from dying. Like it's so crazy on so many levels. But if hunting actually worked in keeping population, populations of animals down, then we

would have solved it a long time ago. The thing is hunters shoot the animals they want to put on the wall. They're not out there doing it because it's a magnanimous thing to do to save deer from starving. Wildlife populations manage themselves. If there's not enough food, they have smaller litters. They breed fewer animals. They go where the food is. And hunters will manipulate so that there are enough animals to be able to shoot during hunting season every year. And any hunter who is being honest with you and candid

and just comes out and says, you know what, I just like to shoot living animals, is going to tell you it's got nothing to do with managing the population so that they don't die of starvation. Yeah, it's a desire to protect an activity that they enjoy doing. That's exactly right. And to create an argument that supports it, that removes that dissonance, that allows them, you know, when that sort of compassionate spark starts to flare, they're able to dim it with that argument that this is a necessary thing. Right, which is crazy. It's crazy. spark starts to flare, they're able to dim it with that argument that this is a necessary thing. Right. Which is crazy. It's crazy. And the thing is, you know, so few people, it's maddening because so few people, it's like, I think the statistic is that less than 7% of the population in this country hunts and yet they control public lands, you know, and, and, and that's just,

you know, that's just wrong. That's, that's where these animals should live. That's where those of us who like to hike and be out in it should be able to do that without worrying about hunters coming and killing the animals. And we're both triathletes to different successful. No, you're very good. But I was on a ride in a local mountain range a few years ago, and I'm like riding up this mountain. And it's like there are hunters scattered up and down, and I don't even know what season it was. And that changed my job for the day. I was like, what?

And they're standing there in their garb that makes them look so silly, and they've got these big expensive guns. And they're just waiting for some poor animal to amble in front of them. There's no overpopulation of anything in these local mountains. I mean, it's just they're out there with their big trucks, and they're having fun. Right. too that I didn't know was the extent to which we lease government-owned land to cattle farmers to graze cattle and the extent to which the government will then control the populations of other animals that interfere with that ranching. So you can call up whoever it is and say, hey, I got wolves.

You know, they're threatening my cattle. and they just take them out. They do. Animal damage control is what it's called. They go out and they kill cougars, wolves, coyotes, any kind of wild animal. When a rancher says, oh, this land that I'm allowed to graze on that doesn't belong to me. That I'm getting for pennies on the dollar because it's subsidized. That's right. That's right. The whole thing. I mean, it's destroying the land. It's destroying the wildlife. It's destroying your health.

It's crazy. You know, it's just, it's not right. And it's a very small number of people benefiting from a huge gift from the government. And the animals are dying horrible deaths as a result of it. One of the things, getting back to this idea of transparency

that I want to talk about, and I hope you can sort me out here, is what is going on with these ag-gag laws? I mean, PETA is right in the middle of all of this. And actually, a lot of PETA's work over the years has contributed to these laws even being on the books. And as a lawyer, I'm trying to wrap my brain around these laws and even conceptualize what a constitutional argument would be. I know. But walk me through what exactly these laws are and what they're doing and kind of what's going on with them currently.

Well, the ag-gag laws are coming up. And I think that the good news is that they're in direct response to the success of the vegan campaign and that fewer people are eating meat and that it's these undercover investigations on hog farms, turkey farms, in dairy farms, showing people exactly where their food comes from. It's turning people off that type of abuse and more towards veganism. So it's a desperate attempt to try to stop people from seeing and lifting the curtain. And so what's happening is these ag-gag bills that say that it's a criminal offense to go on to

a factory farm or a slaughterhouse and film what goes on there, you can be charged with and thrown in jail for doing that. Is it that if you're on the property under false pretenses or what is the exact language? It varies state to state. So in some cases they're saying- So it's not a federal law. It's state by state law? It's state by state. Yeah.

And we've defeated it in a lot of states because it's a violation of our constitutional rights. It's a clear violation of the First Amendment. That's right. That's right. So have any of these ever been gone up to the Supreme Court? No, not yet. It'll probably happen though. But people should be allowed to see what goes on there. And of course, the meat industry doesn't want you to see it. Of all industries, we should be able to know how our food is made. That's exactly right. That seems to be like a basic, you know, maybe not a constitutional right,

but certainly, you know, something that we should all, regardless of whatever your dietary preference is, you should know how your food is being made and what's in it. Absolutely, absolutely. And if you're still okay with it once you see it, then, you know, currently you're allowed to do that. But, you know, but that's exactly right. People should be allowed to see

how their food is being made, undercover investigations. I mean, the USDA is not there. The local agencies that are tasked with anti-cruelty statutes, which a lot of, on these factory farms, all kinds of laws are being broken. Local animal cruelty statutes, meaning state animal cruelty statutes, meaning state animal cruelty statutes, the Animal Welfare Act is being violated, right? I mean, these animals are regularly being sexually assaulted. They're regularly being beaten with gate poles and with wrenches. They're having their throats slit where they're fully conscious and able to feel pain in violation of federal and state law, and no one is there to catch them doing it. And that's why.

The law, whatever laws exist, exist, but there's no enforcement or oversight, really. That's right. That's right. And so we've been left, PETA and other organizations have been left going on to these farms and documenting and handing the information over to law enforcement. That's who it's going to, you know, and it's going out to the public to be able to see. But there hasn't been an occasion where we've done an undercover investigation on a factory farmer in a slaughterhouse where we haven't tried to get the law enforcement to move in and have been hugely successful at getting charges pressed against

farm managers, against companies for abusing animals in illegal ways. And if you take that away, then they have carte blanche to do whatever they want. Right. So in the states where these ag-gag laws are in effect, that's really put a damper on your ability to do what you guys do there, right? So do you just have to halt the way that you do business or do you find new ways of trying to get to the bottom of what's happening or how do you pivot? Well, we're fighting them, first of all, and we're getting a lot of them defeated, thankfully. And then we're just kind of constantly reassessing how we get around that. But we have to get around it. People have to be able to see what's going on.

What's the law in California right now? It was defeated here. It was the ag-gag law in California, if I remember correctly, because there have been so many of them, was defeated here. Interesting. And beyond the ag-ag laws, there are these other laws too. Like in Cowspiracy, Howard Lyman talks about the law that he allegedly violated when he went on Oprah. So I want to talk about that law.

And then he talks about the Patriot Act. Yeah, food disparagement laws. Right. So let's talk about that. Yeah. You know, that's less of a problem now, I think. But it is, there was a movement to try to get it so that it was illegal to say bad things about certain kinds of food. Right.

This idea that if you said something that would interfere with profits. That's right. Right. Or interfere or do you have a negative impact on profit? Yeah. You know, somehow affect a company's profits. So if you, you know, you said bad things. That's insane.

I know. It's crazy. It's freedom of speech. That's like, are we in a dictatorship? I know. And those didn't do as well. The food disparagement laws didn't do as well here. Were they on the books anywhere?

Oh, my gosh. I don't think so. I don't think so. But it kind of grew into ag-gag, though. Right, it kind of morphed into that. That's right. So what law was Howard Lyman prosecuted? What was he—

Was that— What did he get in trouble with when he went on Oprah? I mean, what were the laws that they were hanging his case on? Yeah, that—oh, my gosh, that case was so old. And I knew it so well at the time. That might have been food disparagement. I don't remember. I think part of it was that, you know, which is you put together an hour-long program,

you're going to have to cut a lot of the footage that you shoot. I mean, that's like if you have a nanny cam, you're going to have the nanny on camera for eight hours during that day. She's maybe going to hit your child for about five minutes of it. It doesn't make it less significant. Those are the five minutes that matter. But a lot of times when you shoot this undercover stuff, they say, well, let's look at the other eight hours. Okay. Well, the other eight hours, there was no one in the room, but for that five minutes, when you were beating that animal, that's what was illegal. And so I think part of this, if I remember correctly, part of that situation was the food line case, was that they tried to argue that there was more there that the public didn't see.

But, yeah, but what you were selling was like, you know, really bad food. Right, right, right. You know? And what about this Patriot Act thing that he's talking about? So he's basically saying now if you get up and say anything negative about these agricultural industries, ongoing concerns, that you can be found in violation of the Patriot Act. Is that true? That just sounds insane. What is he really saying? Yeah, well, I think our general counsel speaks to this so beautifully, so I'm probably going to massacre it a little bit. of, of, of, um, interference with our, our lives, you know, on a terrorist level, people

jumped in and said, well, let's, let's, let's protect all kinds of, you know, private interests. And so at that time came, um, you know, the idea that if you, if you protest and a lot of this is like abortion clinic stuff. So like if you protest and you get in the way of business practices, you prevent someone from carrying out their business. If you claim something or you say something is cruel or you block people from being able to go in and buy their hamburger, then they can turn around and say that that is a violation of that law. you know, there's the animal terrorism, there's the animal enterprise terrorism act. Um, and what does it, what does that basically say? That, that is, that's an act of the, which it was, which is ridiculous because the laws are on the books right now. If you go on and you set fire to some building, that's already illegal, you know, but

what they tried to do is to tack onto that, that that's also an interference with that's a, that's already illegal. You know, but what they tried to do is to tack onto that, that that's also an interference with, that's an act of terrorism and that's, you know, that's interfering with business and that kind of thing. And they got, they tried to just kind of paint everything with this big, broad brush. And if you, so, you know, we had to really pay attention to that. It didn't stop us from doing what we intended to do. It didn't stop us from protesting, but they really did try to send a chill through the animal rights movement. So there was even, you know, there were, there was insane talk of if you're protesting in

front of a fur store and that somehow is turning people away from going into that fur store to buy, then that's somehow an act of terrorism because you're intimidating people away from going in and doing what they should be allowed to do. I mean, they really tried to paint that with a broad brush. Yeah, basically taking this insanely expanded definition of what it means to be a terrorist. That's exactly right. And, you know, Will Potter speaks to this. Beautifully, yeah.

That, you know, animal rights activists are basically, you know, the new domestic terrorists. And they're on watch lists everywhere and being monitored, including his talks and lectures, et cetera, as a threat to commerce, really. Yeah, that's the thing. It's big business. It's big business that's being threatened. big business. It's big business that's being threatened. So they're trying to find a way that, you know, makes people afraid or that, you know, broadens the law that is very specific to, you know, terrorist organizations that do want to cause people harm. And, you know, it's just, it's, it's just, it makes such a mockery of the things that we actually do need to be concerned

about. I mean, there were thousands of families that were affected by the September 11th attacks on the World Trade Center and the Pentagon and across, you know, over Pennsylvania. And people grabbed onto that to make it their own, to protect their own businesses. I mean, the fur industry came out post-September 11th with advertisements saying, at a time when we need comfort, fur is your comfort fabric. I mean, people were peddling their goods on the heels of that tragedy like we've never seen before. And that's where commerce and industry came in and said, we need our factory farms protected from these animal rights terrorists. And everybody was throwing the terrorist word out and hoping that it would stick. And of course, the media doesn't help.

So you've got, you know, I'll not name names. There are plenty. Come on, no one's listening. They are. You know, plenty of people out there who love to do that. It's funny because, you know, Gone Girl is a very popular book and movie that's out, right? And so it kind of addresses that, like, when the media will take a picture and they'll decide that because of this, because of the way someone looks in this, you know, Ben, I don't give away, but it's in the trailer that you see him smiling in front of a picture

of his missing wife. And so they said, he killed her. He killed her. Look at this look on his face. And that's the kind of society we're living in right now. And post-September 11th- Yeah, the story becomes about the perpetrator and not the issue. There's a movie called Kill the Messenger out, and it's the same narrative, right? So when the messenger is bringing up a story that is controversial or that the vested interests don't want to get out there, then they marginalize the messenger. That's right. That's right. And he killed himself. Right.

That journalist did. Yeah, that journalist did. Make the story about the individual and take the spotlight off of what the real issue is. That's exactly right. And so I guess my question to you, and you've been in that situation. I saw you on The Daily Show. You know what I mean? Like you go on Bill O'Reilly.

I mean, you have balls of steel to do that because of course you know when you sign up for that and you're going to go on that, that you're going to take the heat, right? And they're going to try to make it about you and they're going to try to make you look foolish or try to make fun of you. So what is the mindset when you're like, all right, I'm going to sit down with Wyatt Sinek, you know, I know how, I know what's going to, I know, you know, I don't know what he's going to do, but he's going to do something, you know, like, how do you, like, first of all, you know, what is the decision to say, okay, I'm going to do this, knowing that that's probably what's going to happen. And how do you kind of navigate that and survive it really? that and survive it, really.

Well, you know, it's funny because, too, when Fox News first came around and then there was, you know, September 11th happened, I did one of those shows and someone compared me to Osama bin Laden just for trying to promote veganism. And so they do love to throw that stuff around. And so, you know, fast forwarding many years to the Daily Show episode that you were talking about, it had to do with our 13th Amendment case against SeaWorld saying that the 13th Amendment canon should apply to animals. And in this case, these animals were taken from their families in the ocean and enslaved at SeaWorld. And it was a case beautifully written that got a lot of legal kudos. It was a case beautifully written that got a lot of legal kudos.

The judge took it very seriously, but it pissed off Wyatt at The Daily Show. And it was really funny because he acted like a complete jerk, and he was very proud of himself. What you don't know is that interview was like, interesting, two minutes of it. He kept me in that room for three hours. Well, you know the way they two minutes of it. He kept me in that room for three hours. Well, you know, when they do, the way they do it is, you know, he asked the question and then they cut to you. Saying something else. Or just staring blankly.

Yeah, exactly. Because it's probably when you're getting ready to do the end. That's right. It's taken out of the timeline. So it's edited specifically to make you look foolish. That's right. Way more so than, you know, if they just play the raw footage. That's right. And, you know, I've done The Daily Show numerous times and I get the joke, right? I

get that, you know, and we're all for it. We have a huge sense of humor at PETA and I've been the butt of jokes for the Colbert Report for whatever, and I'm down with that. But in this case, he was so awful and he was so personally offended and angry about PETA's work that he was shaking. He was holding a picture of me and my dog from a triathlon I'd done actually. And he was literally shaking. By the end of that interview, the people in the room whispered to me as I said, thank you to everybody that they couldn't believe how he'd behaved and that I really kept my cool. And the whole time, in answer to your question, it's like, how do you do it? The whole time for me is like, I'm not talking to Wyatt. I'm talking to everybody who's watching this.

And if I lose my cool or if I look like an idiot, and they'll still make me look like an idiot because that's their goal on The Daily Show, which I love The Daily Show, by the way, and I'm glad he's off it. But- But that's the one thing you always do. Like in all the interviews that I've seen you in, you never get rattled. Like, you know, you're like, you're always on an even keel and you answer the question and they're poking you, hoping to get a reaction out of you and you just never bite. Yeah. Well, it's not about me is the thing. You know what I mean? Like I can sit there, you can call me anything. I don't care. I really don't care what you say to me. It's not about me. It's about the issue we're talking about.

And I have that one opportunity, however long that is, to maybe change someone's mind about something. If I let my feathers get ruffled, then I lose that opportunity. And it's the controversial work that the organization does that gets the attention that allows you to go on these shows and speak to massive amounts of people, right? Yeah. We can't do these controversial things and then act so surprised that people are taking us to task for it. And listen, when you go on O'Reilly, I mean, that's just theater anyway. Of course, you can't take personally anything that guy is saying to you. It's a whole orchestrated thing. Yeah, with everything they do.

Yeah, it's a show. I was so funny. I've done so many Fox shows, and I did this thing with Megan. What's her name? I can't remember her last name. The blonde who gets so hysterical about anything liberal. Aren't they all like that? Yes, yes.

And she was so angry that we had, we were promoting, we did this thing called a love-in where a couple would sit on a city street on a mattress and make out and said vegans last longer. And it was total, it was, it was sexy and it was funny and everything. And we did it. It's like tongue in cheek. Totally tongue in cheek. And it was very funny. It was very popular. And we did it with straight couples and we did it with gay couples, but she was incensed that we did it with lesbians. And she, she couldn't, and I mean, her homophobia just came through like you wouldn't believe, and she couldn't get over it. What if children are walking down the street and I'm like, children get the gay thing. I mean, women love women, men love men, men love whatever. I mean,

it's like we're living in a new world, Megan. She went so nuts over it that the Huffington posted an entire article on her interview with me because she was just like, she lost it, you know, and it is, but it is just this big showy thing. Unfortunately though, people watching some of those shows, they like take that as hard news. You know, you're better off watching Jon Stewart if you want to know what's really going on in the world and some of these news programs. And it's too bad because when I, you know, back in the day when I started at PETA, there was hard news. Like you could, we would do an undercover investigation. We would send out a news release and we would sit down and there are still some really great journalists out there.

Goodness knows, like we are in the press every day and they're just good people fighting for that, you know, that way of reporting. But it's definitely a different world. Right, right, right. And, you know, you put stuff out there that attracts the controversy too, like the video, what was the one? It was the guy from Saturday Night Live and, you know, boyfriend went vegan. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Kevin Nealon. Yeah, Kevin Nealon, which I thought was hilarious, you know, but I'm sure you got a lot of flack for that as well. Yeah, but that was also interesting because it was one, we released it on Valentine's Day. And if you go to our website, you can see it. And it just shows a woman who has had such, shows a woman who has had such, what would you say? I mean, such forceful, consensual sex that she is just, she's wearing a neck brace, right? And so she's gone to the store. Because her boyfriend went vegan and now he's so virulent. Yes. Right. So she's got, you see her, it starts when she's coming back from the store because she wants to feed him more veggies. I will tell you, I am not naive and I've done a lot of fun and strange things in my career at PETA.

The controversy over that spot really took, really surprised me because the spot is so obviously she's feeding him more veggies. She's enjoying this relationship she has with this guy and it's so tongue in cheek. And you. And, you know, it's a... Anyway, so someone got angry about it, and had they not, I'm not sure we would have gotten the millions of views on the ad. And every ad we put out that's controversial like that one ended up being, we put our undercover investigation footage at the end, and we offer people our free vegetarian starter kit

to either order or download from our website. And so we're able to track the success of these campaigns like never before. They're not just watching Boyfriend Went Vegan. They're then going and watching the slaughterhouse footage and the factory farming footage. And then they're ordering the vegan starter kit. So you come to our website to see an ad like that. It's kind of not for free. You end up having to see the kind of grisly stuff, and that's where the changes are made. So, you know, we're willing to push an envelope here or there. And let's talk about this sort of partnership that you guys have formed with so many celebrities. I mean, celebrities have been like an integral part of your messaging from way back, right? And, you know, how that kind of came to be and, you know, what that serves in the sort

of, you know, philosophy of PETA. Well, you know, we are a really kind of celebrity crazed society, you know, for better or for worse, you know, celebrities themselves will tell you it's for, you know, for worse. But so I think as an organization, again, we're, we're pretty strategic and we've always noticed that if, if, if, if it's a celebrity and if the message is coming from a celebrity, more people are going to sit up and pay attention than if it's me. Um, and so we latched onto that from a long, long time ago. That was, you know, that was really Dan Matthews and Ingrid years ago that said, we really

got to get some famous faces to help advocate. Yeah. And I think it grew out of Dan getting frustrated that he would go to these media outlets and they stopped wanting to run the serious journalistic, you know, exposing pieces that he was bringing to them because their ratings were plummeting. And so he realized he had to find a new way to get access to broadcast media. And it was through sort of doing pieces around celebrities that would open those doors that needed to be open. That's right. That's exactly right. And it works very, very well. So when Angelica Houston is narrating a video about the use and abuse of

great apes in the entertainment industry for television and movies, people are sitting up and paying attention because she is a goddess and she is Hollywood royalty and she won't work with chimpanzees and other great apes. So we choose carefully and the folks, it makes sense that that message would come from her. It makes sense that Edie Falco speaks out against the circus. She's a mom and she approached that from a mother's perspective. And then we've got so many people on the fashion front who are fashion forward. Jessica Chastain won't wear, won't wear fur. She won't wear leather. Anne Hathaway, Natalie Portman, all of these, you know, beautiful Charlize Theron did an anti-fur ad for us because

that's the world that they're looking at. Joaquin Phoenix has done numerous things for us. The Phoenix family has supported us since we were founded, you know, and he's such a lovely person. And so, I mean, I could go on and on. There's just so many wonderful people. And then athletes like you. I mean, you know, you are one of the greatest studs in the athletic world. No, and I know this firsthand because I've paid such close attention to what you've done,

but you talking about doing five Ironman races in a week on a vegan diet, that's something people are tuning into. That's stressing someone's body. I'm hard-pressed to think of a way to do it where you stress your body more than that, and you're doing it with plants. And that's telling the world out there that if all you really have to do is get up in the morning and go to work and come home and have dinner with your family, that's not even stressing you out. And this is the best way to eat.

I mean, it's just having a tremendous effect. So yeah, it's worked well for us. Yeah, it's cool. I mean, I've been watching the kind of ink, ink, not mink campaign and all the cool posters that you've done with that. And you've, you've gotten a lot of athletes on board with that. A lot of, you know, professional football players and basketball players and stuff like that, which is pretty cool. And more coming. Yeah. And you're seeing, at least I'm seeing, you know, maybe it's through my, you know, selective filter, but it seems to me that the fashion industry is changing slowly. And you have, you know, young, new designers like Joshua Katcher, who are, you know,

doing all cruelty free. And, you know, even sort of veterans of the business like John Bartlett, who had his epiphany and suddenly decided everything that he does is going to be cruelty-free. And he's incredibly vocal and outspoken and strident in his advocacy. And when somebody like John, who's like a lion of the business, is heralded for many, many years, is taking such an unequivocal stand on this, you know, is heralded for many, many years is taking such an unequivocal stand on this. I mean, there's an air of legitimacy that comes with that. Absolutely.

Because he has so much experience and success in that business. So, you know, what is the ripple effect of that? Oh, it's tremendous. I mean, just this week, the New York Times did a story. We did an undercover investigation in, I think it was 19 wool grower sheds in Australia. Australia is the largest exporter of mules to wool in the world. And they also produce regular wool. And then we also did, at the same time, did investigations and the wool industry in this country. And it's some of the worst stuff I've ever seen. I mean, these poor sheep who are just the most gentle animals you could ever imagine.

And they're being punched in the face. They're being stood on. They're being hit with sheep, you know, the shears. They're being sheared so roughly that their entire bodies are cut up, and then they're being stitched up without any anesthesia. A sheep shearer in Colorado broke the neck of a sheep and then threw him down a chute. I mean, it's one thing after another, and it was in every shed. It was in every shed that we found. So, you know, we exposed that, and that's making people realize that, yeah, I mean, I shouldn't wear wool. And in the New York Times this week, there was a spokesperson from the New Zealand wool industry,

which is a huge exporter as well, who said there are just too many alternatives to wool. I mean, this is an industry that's going away because people just don't want the cruelty. They can get it cheaper another way when you use natural fibers. And so we're seeing a huge change. Big, big designers. I mean, you know, Stella McCartney, Betsy Johnson, Vivian Westwood, Ralph Lauren, to varying degrees.

You know, some of them are still using skins and some of them are still using wool. None of those guys are using fur. So, yeah, and John Bartlett. I mean, you know, he's just such a lovely person. So yeah, it's everywhere. And it's not just the designers. I mean, designers are great because they do help set trends, but most people aren't buying that kind of stuff. They're going to the Gap and they're, which Gap will not sell Angora wool and they will not sell fur. Oh, I didn't know that. Yeah. And they're going to H&M and they're going to Forever 21 and they're going to J.Crew and they're going to a number of these places.

We still have issues with a lot of these companies that we're working on, but there's a huge movement afoot because people are demanding cruelty-free products and wanting to live a vegan lifestyle. What about the cosmetic business? Yeah. That's something I don't know anything about that. Yeah. demanding cruelty-free products and wanting to live a vegan lifestyle. What about the cosmetic business? Yeah. Like, I don't, you know, that's something, I don't know anything about that. Yeah. But I know that they do animal testing to some extent on these products.

I mean, what is the landscape there? That's changing too. I mean, there's still a lot of work to be done. There are still companies that are testing their products on animals. It's not required by law for cosmetics, but they're still, you know, still doing it. But it is very easy to buy cruelty-free cosmetics. You know, obsessive compulsive is a very, very popular line. For example, Aveda is cruelty-free and we maintain a list on our website. So it's, you know, Urban

Decay again is another company. So there's definitely change, you know, that's been a hugely successful campaign, but it's not over. So we're still urging people to make sure that they check the list for cosmetics that are tested on animals because it is still happening. What are some things that people commonly do without thinking about it that they could easily make a switch or adjust that they might not be even just aware or having like sort of negative repercussions on animal welfare. Other than the obvious, like I'm trying to think like, what, you know, what am I doing that I don't even know, you know, could be that I'm not even really consciously choosing where I could make a better choice.

Yeah, I think, you know think eggs and dairy are an interesting thing because they're ingredients in a lot of things. And I think people without thinking, they think you don't kill the chicken for the eggs, for her eggs, and you don't kill a dairy cow for her milk, but you do. It's the baby that's getting killed at 14 weeks old, the baby cow at 14 weeks old,

because to get the milk from a dairy cow that we put in a carton and sell at the store, you'd have to take it away from the baby. I mean, mother cows give milk for the same reasons human mothers, and that's for their babies. So babies are a byproduct of the dairy industry, and they die. And eventually when dairy cows, quote-unquote, dry up, they're also killed. So I think that people, well-intentioned people who go vegetarian but don't go vegan think, well, they don't kill the animals for that. So that's kind of an unintentional thing. I'm trying to think of what else, you know, people do. I mean, going- I mean, I think, you know, kind of maybe what I'm getting at is that,

look, we all live in the world, right? And, you know, you get a car, there's probably, you know, even if you get the cloth seats, there's probably leather somewhere. And, you know, like we're sort of purchasing things without even being aware of them. And in many cases, maybe there aren't even really viable alternatives. And, you know, I'm always trying to raise my awareness level. And, you know, I don't know in all cases, and I'm not perfect. But, you know, I'm trying to do better. But it isn't perfection.

It's just being aware. You know, if you just be aware and do your best, that's what we tell people. There are obvious cruelties. The dairy industry, the egg industry, the meat industry, obvious cruelty. Get rid of it, you know, whatever. The rest of it, the car you buy when you're walking down the street, the things that you do, they're just, you know, just be open to it is all, you know. I mean, some dog owners, for example, do things they're unaware of, like, you know, choke chains. Sometimes, you know, dog trainers are some of the worst enemies of dogs that exist.

What about dog food and cat food? Yeah. I mean, that's another thing. That's people unintentionally. There are great vegan dog foods now, you know, and I cooked for my dog. But that's an unintentional thing. But again, that's like, you know, do your best. Do the best you can.

Learn everything you can. And then make an informed decision. And typically when you ask people to do that, it's very easy to do. Like you said, you know, just do a quick Google search and you can learn everything you need to learn. Or come to PETA. Go to our website and, you know and check things out or write to us. But it really does come down to just doing the best you can. The next time you go to buy a winter coat, look for something that doesn't have down in it.

If you have a down coat right now and you're not in the market for something else, we're not telling you you should burn that down coat. Just don't buy another one. Right. This is something interesting that occurred when you came to visit our house because we had, I think we had a couch with some leather on it and we had like a rug that was made out of an animal skin and there were things that we had just owned forever. Right.

And, you know, Julie and I were like, should we hide it? You know, what are we going to, like, we can't like have this here when Lisa comes, like, but, but, you know, we didn't want to be disingenuous either. And then we had a conversation after the interview where I was like, what is the, you know, I'm curious, like, what is the ethical response? Like, if you already own this product, what is the best thing? What is the most conscious thing to to do is it to continue to use it until it's no longer useful because you already the animal's already dead and you own it is it to give it away is it to destroy it like you know what is what is the answer yeah i think you have to just go with

what your heart tells you and you know i'll tell you honestly a lot of people will just say well i'm not going to give it away because i've had it and everything but then you find that a lot of people just don't even like looking at it anymore and they end up getting rid of it on their own. There are certain things I would recommend that people not wear again. Like if you have just learned about fur and you have a fur coat, don't, don't wear it. Don't wear it because it perpetuates the idea and might encourage other people to buy that kind of thing. Because that's out on the street, that's going into a restaurant. Your couch at home, you know, you can, you can always, you have people over and you say, I only have a leather couch because I didn't know better.

But if you're out on the street and fur, that's a completely different thing, or a leather coat, I would say donate those items. But really just ask yourself those questions. You know, when I went vegan, I had some leather shoes and stuff, and I was that person that just, I wore what I had. I couldn't afford to replace everything. But then I really actually couldn't stomach wearing it anymore either. So I just kind of- Lots of shift in consciousness that takes place, you know? And I think that it's, I think it's important for people to understand, you know, it's easy to kind of look at you and PETA and this sort of lifestyle that you promote and at times do in a very kind of hardline fashion. And for people to say, well, I can't, it's too hard.

It's too, you know, I can't live to that standard, right? And that's really not, you know, that's a perception maybe, but it's not an accurate perception. Yeah, don't ask yourself where it all ends. Just ask yourself where it starts for you. Like what's the thing that you can do? What's the one animal that you want to give up eating? And then consider in 30 days, you know, giving up another or go vegan for 30 days. Try it.

They say that it takes like, what, three weeks to get used to something new? Whatever. But don't worry about how far you'll go. Just worry about where you're going to start and think about it. That's all. I mean, just think about those animals. For me, it's just, you know, 22 years having been here, I still, you know, there was a terrible cruelty case down the street not far from here. street from not far from here. And it just breaks my heart as much today as it did when I started this whole thing, when you know that someone's been cruel and killed, you know, a cat or a dog or

whatever it is. And just, and it's not a fun thing to think of. And I don't blame people for trying to put it out of their minds, you know, because it's, it's the worst, but just give them that if they're going to go through it, the least we can do is just think about it or look at the footage and understand it. It's painful, but it's not quite the pain that they're going through. And then realize they're just like easy little things that you can do. Not all at once, but again, just don't worry about, oh my God, am I going to have to change my entire life? Okay, well then I guess I'll do nothing. Right. You know, just do something. Yeah, because that just leads to paralysis.

Yeah. It's too difficult. It's too overwhelming. There's too many decisions to be made. Like, I can't deal with it. That's right. That's right. And that's true with anything.

It's kind of like when people have to lose 300 pounds. Oh, my God, I have to lose 300 pounds and I'm never going to start. You know, it's just like, you know what? Just concentrate on being healthier and just start somewhere. What are you doing? Be in the present. What are you doing right now? What's the next decision that you need right now? What's the next decision

that you need to make? What's the next thing you have to buy? What's the next thing you need to eat? And what do you want that to stand for? Because I think if PETA stands for anything, it stands for giving the power to the people and really believing that the people do have a voice, you know, individually and collectively. And if you really get real with yourself about, you know, what you, you know, what you really stand for and what you support and don't support and back it up with action. Yeah. And then think about it if you're a parent. Like what kind, that just sets such a beautiful example for your kids. I mean, you and Julie do it every day.

That's such a beautiful example for your kids. I mean, you and Julie do it every day. It's like you want your kids to look at you and think, wow, my dad was really kick-ass. Like he stood for something and he lived a really kind life. And you want to be an example like that, not just for your own kids. I don't have children, but I know a lot of them and I don't preach to them. You just kind of do your thing. I mean, it's funny cause you were talking about living in the moment. We should all really be more like

our dogs because they're like right there and they're living in the moment and there's nothing premeditated and they just like, you know, no agenda. Well, other than being loved and getting some food made. Right, right, right, right. But that's just kind of in, in the moment, just think about what you can do right now to just cause the least amount of suffering. And it's like the easiest thing in the world to do. And then when you pass that on to your kids and you say, I'm not eating that because to end up there, that animal went through a lot of pain. And so I don't want to be a part of that. It's tricky with men, though.

You know, for a lot of people, for a lot of men, it's challenging their notion of masculinity and what it means to be a man. Right. a lot of men, it's challenging their notion of masculinity and what it means to be a man, right? And so, you know, eating meat for better or worse has sort of become, you know, a cultural touchstone of what it means to be manly, you know, as sort of ridiculous and insane as that is. It is challenging to try to unravel that knot, I think. Sure. Yeah. to try to unravel that knot, I think. Sure, yeah. Because a lot of men just think,

well, if I take this stand or I become that guy, then I become a wimp or how are my fellow males gonna perceive me? And it's really, it's a social perspective that I think we need to begin to shift because it's bullshit. Yeah, it is. And it is changing though, because you look at all these great MMA fighters and a number of athletes such as yourself who are vegan,

and I just would say to the men out there who think that it's macho to eat meat that it's just embarrassing. I mean, there's nothing less attractive than a man who just thinks, well, I've got to be a man, so I have to show that I don't care. Or just the obvious, I need to, it's just so. Well, praying and oppressing the weak is not really very manly. No, it's very cowardly. It's almost cowardly. Yeah. And I always say this, but you look at the great leaders throughout the millennia, and they were the ones that understood compassion.

A balance of force and power counterbalanced against compassion when appropriate and always sort of caring for the weak and the underserved. Those are the great leaders of humanity, right? And so I think it's incumbent upon males, men to really ponder that. Yeah. And women love compassionate men. I mean, just look at how exciting, I mean, look how many views, YouTube videos of like the firefighter saving the kitten. I mean, it's just like that is just, that's what's desired is the guy who is just all things manly and kind. Right.

Which is really... You guys did a recent video with Timothy Sheaf, right? The free runner in London. Yes. It was probably your UK office. Yes, it was. Right? Yeah, yeah, yeah.

I had him on the podcast. He's amazing. He's super cool. But he's amazing because he's so brilliantly talented at what he does. But he's also incredibly passionate and articulate about this cause in kind of an unexpected, beautiful way. And he's very committed to changing people's awareness when it comes to these kinds of things. It's cool to watch. He's young and he's dialed in too in Britain.

This guy knows everybody and, you know, he has a voice and he has a presence and to watch him do what he does, it's impossible. I mean, like, look, if that, you know, if he can do that, you know, and look the way he does and say the things that he says, I mean, you know, that's heroic. Yeah, it's really cool too because he does what he does and then, oh, by the way, he's vegan. Do you know what I mean, you know, that's heroic. Yeah, it's really cool too because he does what he does. And then, oh, by the way, he's vegan. Do you know what I mean? I mean, it means a lot to him. But people are looking at him not because he's a vegan,

but because he's such a spectacular athlete, you know. And it's really fun to see. And we're seeing it more and more, you know. So, yeah, good things ahead. Exciting times. Well, I think that's a good place to wrap it up. All right. Well, thank you. This was fun. That went by way too fast. It I think that's a good place to wrap it up. All right. Well, thank you.

This was fun. That went by way too fast. It was good, right? You have to have me back. How do you feel? Did we do it? Yeah, yeah, yeah. It was great.

Excellent. Well, if you're out there listening and you're inspired to broaden your horizons and learn more, the best place to do that is to go to PETA.org, right? Yep. And if you want to connect with Lisa more intimately online, at least, the best place to do that is you're on Facebook, right? Yeah, yeah. Lisa.lang.lange.

I always say lang. It's lange. Everybody does. Yeah, that's okay. So I'm there. I'm not on Twitter. I'm not. Why are you not on Twitter?

It's Lange. Everybody does. Yeah, that's okay. So I'm there. I'm not on Twitter. You're not on Twitter. Why are you not on Twitter? I don't, I'm like at my computer practically 24-7 and I just think, oh, I just can't. It's another thing.

Yeah, it's just another thing. But maybe one day. What about Instagram? I am on Instagram. Do you know your avatar? Oh, my God. You don't? I just got back on.

I was on. I think it's Lisa M. Lange. You don't even know. No, I know. I'll figure it out. I'll put it in think it's Lisa M. Lange. You don't even know. No, I know. I'll figure it out. I'll put it in the show notes. Okay. All right.

Good. Well, PETA on Twitter is just at PETA. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. We're very active on Twitter. Is there anything going on on the website right now that would be interesting or new to direct people's attention? Oh, well, you know, the SeaWorld stuff is very prominent on our website right now because

of the Virgin America announcement, which was great. And I mean, I was just on there today, the NIH stuff I talked about earlier, the experiments there, it's just, and then the India thing as well, as well. And then of course, we're coming up on the holidays. And so we go a little crazy with the holidays with really great recipes and stuff for people. I use them. I love cooking at the house. I mean, believe it or not, Thanksgiving's my favorite holiday because we make this massively yummy vegan feast. And last year I made a pumpkin pie, a pecan pie. We made this, the Spork Sisters. Have you, do you have their cookbook? It's amazing. What's it called?

Well, the book itself, but there's the Spork Sisters, and they're fantastic. And so I cook out of their cookbook. Chloe Coscarelli is one of my, she's just the best. Robin Roberts and all these people. So I pull from different cookbooks. And then we have all this stuff up on our website, how to make vegan gravy and, you know, substitute earth balance for butter and mashed potatoes and all that stuff. So that's all coming up.

Cool. So look out for it. All right. Good stuff. Yeah. All right. Well, thanks, Lisa. Yeah, thank you. that's all coming up. Cool. So look out for it. All right. Good stuff. Yeah. All right. Well, thanks, Lisa. Yeah.

Thank you. Keep doing what you do. Always. You too. It's very inspirational. Oh, thank you. Back at you. All right.

Well, thanks again. Peace. Plants. All right, you guys, that's it. We did it. That's this week's show. I hope you enjoyed. Lisa, I hope I've helped broaden your perspective.

I hope I've given you something to really gnaw on. And at a minimum, I hope I have helped create greater awareness and consciousness about the implications of our consumer choices at the market and beyond. So, if you haven't already, please give us a review on iTunes. We're approaching a thousand reviews. It would be great to hit that. So, do me a solid. Let's make it happen. Come on, you guys. Stop being lazy. It takes two minutes. Throw me a review. You can do it. If you want to stay current with all things plant-powered, subscribe to my newsletter at richroll.com. I will not spam you. I'm just going to send you a weekly podcast update, some helpful information, and the occasional deal on cool stuff. That's it. And of course, go to richroll.com for all your plant-powered needs

and go to mindbodygreen.com to check out my online courses. If you want to support the show, you want to be behind the plant power mission, just tell a friend about the show. Use the Amazon banner ad at richroll.com and you can donate to the show. There's buttons on the site. You can subscribe weekly, monthly, one time, any dollar amount you like. Thank you so much to everybody who's done that. And please keep Instagramming. I love it. I love when you share how, when, why you're enjoying the show. Just don't forget to tag me at Rich Roll there. All right, let's close it down with this week's assignment. I think kind of between the lines, this week's conversation is really about connections. It's about how everything in certain respects is connected. So the next time you go to the store or the market and you're about

to buy a product, any product, food product or otherwise, it can be a consumer product of any kind, I want you to sort of hold it in your hand, look at it and consider what that product is connected to. What does it stand for? What was the process involved in creating it? How, when, where? How does purchasing it create a trickle-down effect on other aspects of our world? Does it truly represent what you want? Does purchasing it accurately reflect your core values? And this is not an easy thing. It's a complex world out there. Everything is connected to everything. I know that when you buy an iPhone, for example, well, what does that mean? There are people in China that are working on that.

Where do these minerals come from that find their way into our phones? And what does that mean? There are people in China that are working on that. Where do these minerals come from that find their way into our phones? And what does that mean about what we stand for? It's not easy. It's tricky. And it seems like everything is compromised. So I'm not saying that this is a simple task and I'm not even asking you to necessarily change your behavior. I'm just asking you to begin to develop a greater level of consciousness and awareness that our consumer actions do indeed have ramifications, that there is more at play. And together, maybe we might just be able to raise the vibration. All right, enjoy your week, people, and I'll see you next Monday. Peace. Plants.