The Rich Roll Podcast - Malala Yousafzai Is Finding Her Way

Episode Date: October 27, 2025

Malala Yousafzai is the youngest Nobel Peace Prize laureate, education activist, and survivor of a Taliban assassination attempt at age fifteen. This conversation explores the gulf between icon and identity—what happens when you're trying to figure out who you are while everybody has already decided for you. We discuss PTSD that surfaced years later, therapy she resisted, reconciling heritage with freedom, the crisis facing Afghan girls under gender apartheid, and why meaningful activism extends beyond social media. Through it all, she's redefining what courage actually looks like. Malala is vulnerable, honest, and profoundly human. And this conversation is a gift. Enjoy! Show notes + MORE Watch on YouTube Newsletter Sign-Up   Today’s Sponsors: Seed: Use code RICHROLL25 for 25% OFF your first order👉🏼https://www.seed.com/RichRoll25 On: High-performance shoes & apparel crafted for comfort and style👉🏼https://www.on.com/richroll BetterHelp: Get 10% OFF the first month👉🏼https://www.betterhelp.com/richroll Go Brewing: Use the code Rich Roll for 15% OFF👉🏼https://www.gobrewing.com LMNT: Get a free LMNT Sample Pack with any purchase👉🏼https://www.drinklmnt.com/richroll Momentous: High-caliber human performance products for sleep, focus, longevity, and more. For listeners of the show, Momentous is offering up to 35% off your first order👉🏼https://www.livemomentous.com/richroll           Birch: Unlock 20% off ALL mattresses👉🏼BirchLiving.com/richroll  Check out all of the amazing discounts from our Sponsors👉🏼https://www.richroll.com/sponsors   Find out more about Voicing Change Media at https://www.voicingchange.media and follow us @voicingchange

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but made for anyone committed to the path. I've been with On since 2023, and I'm still just so impressed by how they continue to elevate and innovate in the name of purpose, not flash. Head to on.com slash richroll to explore gear that supports you every step of the way. I survived the Taliban attack when I was 15 years old.

One bullet hit me on the left side of my forehead. I was defined as a brave, courageous activist who stood up to the Taliban. The flashbacks of the attack came back many years later. That was really painful to process. I was introduced to therapy. That changed everything for me. Today I'm thinking about all the children in the world who are denied the right to an education, who are living under wars, whose schools are being bombed.

and I just wish that no other child is attacked, no other child faces a bullet for simply wanting to be in school. It's hard to process, but all you can think about is the hope that humanity has. I just think about the immense love, the support that I have received from people, and think less about a few who spread hatred. Hey everybody. You know, when I started this thing 13 years ago, the idea that a day would arrive when someone like Malala, this global icon, this basically symbol of international courage, you know, would make a point of. of coming to my studio to sit down and talk was just unfathomable. But stunningly, this is what

happened. She did, in fact, pay the podcast to visit. And I guess on some level, there's a lesson in there about stick-to-itiveness, about what happens when you just build something very gradually over time. And it was all very disarming because Malala isn't somebody who typically does this kind of thing. And she didn't show up with some big entourage. And she was happy to be here, happy to talk as long as I wanted to, happy to take pictures with my crew and a couple of friends we invited to sit in on the experience and basically just hang out, all of which really humanized her because if you're someone like that, everybody has sort of already decided who you are in advance. And in her case, the idea is that, you know, she is this fearless activist and advocate for

girls' education, the youngest person to ever win a Nobel Prize, et cetera, on and on and on. But when you meet her, you realize she's this young, relatively newly married woman, still very much at the beginning of her life, trying to figure stuff out, just like the rest of us. And sort of very earnest about wanting people to see and understand her as much more than a news story or a headline or how the media has historically portrayed her, which I think is a big reason why she wrote this new book that just came out called Finding My Way, which I kind of jokingly refer to as Malala goes to college because it is that. But also more generally, it's her trying to reintroduce herself as this young person in a strange land, just trying to navigate

ordinary, everyday life in surprisingly relatable ways. So anyway, yeah, it's kind of a moment for me, for my team, and for you to be able to help share her story in her own words, a story I think we all think we know, but as you will momentarily discover, not really. For the few unfamiliar, Malala Yusuf, say, was a 15-year-old student and activist who spoke out publicly against the Taliban's prohibition on girls' education who survived an assassination attempt by the Taliban and almost overnight became a global symbol of courage, and for which she holds the distinction of being the youngest person ever awarded the Nobel Peace Prize. Today, she oversees the Malala Fund, which sponsors girls' education in many countries across the developing world. But today we go way beyond the headlines, Malala's version of the Malala story, panic attacks and all, which more than anything is about how to find and define yourself, how to carve out your own identity and path, irrespective of what others, or in her case, the world expects from you, including, you're never going to believe this, what happened when Malala did her first bong hit. So there you go. Let's do it. This is me and the very inspiring Malala. I'm very excited to meet you. Thank you for coming all the way out here to talk to me today.

I think it's an interesting moment because today, the day that we're recording this is October 8th, which is one day shy of the 13th anniversary of the shooting. So is that occupying your mind? Does that happen this time of year every year? I wanted to be a normal day. It's a difficult day to reflect on because I think about the gunmen who attempted to shoot a 15-year-old girl for daring to go to school. So usually I just want this day to go past as quickly as it can. But today I'm thinking about all the children in the world who are denied the right to an education, who are living under wars, whose schools are being bombed. And I just wish that no other child is attacked.

No other child faces a bullet for simply wanting to be in school. It's hard to process, but all you can think about is the hope that humanity has. I just think about the immense love, the support that I have received from people and think less about a few who spread hatred or a few who attacked us. You once famously said in an interview when you were, asked about your relationship to the shooting that you don't think about it and you're just moving your life forward and this is a big controversial thing. You talk about this in the new book, but the new book is also very much a mental health journey and you're trying to process

the trauma of that experience. And I suspect on some level that requires you grappling with it and confronting it rather than just trying to compartmentalize it and move your life forward without looking in the rearview mirror. I previously thought that my story was completed, that I won over the people who tried to silence me. I survived the Taliban attack when I was 15 years old. I recovered through my surgeries quickly. I was on this new journey to advocate for girls around the world.

And I remember at the hospital, there was a therapist as well who was offered to me and my family and I said no because we just did not grow up in Pakistan learning about what therapy was and it was just not a common topic so I was a bit skeptical rolling my eyes that

you know how can a question like how are you feeling today help me through this pain but when I think about my new book finding my way I think you know, it's a continuation of the journey because the flashbacks of the attack came back many years later. And I thought that I did not remember the attack, but when I had this PTSD, when I had this

experience where I started having flashbacks again, it just made me realize that maybe I had buried it somewhere down there, but it was always there. I want to dive deeper into the mental health journey here. But before we do that, for the very few who might be watching this or listening to this, who are less familiar with your story, do you think that you could give a thumbnail version of what happened to you to catch everyone up to speed? Yeah, so I come from the north of Pakistan and we had a normal life. But when I was 11 years old, our valley was targeted by militant extremists called the Taliban. They imposed restrictions on women and girls from limiting them from work and also education.

I was a student at the time, and girls' education was banned by the Taliban. Women were beaten up, schools were bombed. That's when I became an activist for my right to be in school. I was following the footsteps of my father. who was a girl's school educator. Yes, he had a school. My father was a school teacher. He started a girls and boys' school.

So I was very lucky that I was getting access to an education. But the Taliban made it even worse because what little we were already achieving for women, they just took all of that away from us. And when the Taliban were removed after a military operation, there were still challenges to girls' education. So I continued speaking out. The Taliban, it felt like, had not gone. that far away, you know, you could still feel like they were there far away in the mountains. At age 15, I was on my school bus when two gunmen stopped our school bus.

One came to the back of the school van and asked who is Malala, and then he fired bullets. So one bullet hit me on the left side of my forehead, and two bullets hit two friends who were sitting right next to me. after that I have heard stories about this incident I hardly recall

what happened and this was my answer that I don't remember but I have many memories in my mind because from the moment of the shooting till the time when I woke up

it had been more than a week and I was in an induced coma I had gone through a few surgeries and you know I closed my eyes in Pakistan and then I woke up in a different country in Birmingham in the UK. So this period of

one week was this dark time that I just could not figure out. If I were the same person or not, how could my life take such a sharp turn and that I had to restart a new life. And also the fact that my story was hard around the world, I was still in a coma when I was receiving global recognition. I had no idea if people even knew my name. So I was defined as a brave, courageous activist who stood up to the Taliban, yet I was still 15 years old who wanted to know what was ahead of her in life. And, you know, that's why I am reintroducing myself in this book because it has been a learning journey to find out who I am as a young woman. So, I'm sharing about my lonely school time to becoming a reckless college student to then becoming

this young woman now who is at peace with herself. There's so many interesting themes in the book, but just reflecting upon, you know, that experience that you had as a young person, so many just unusual things had to conspire in order for you to just be alive. There was an English, there happened to be an English surgeon nearby who could treat you the trajectory of the bullet, like, you know, should have gone into you. your brain but sort of slid off the side of a very thick part of your cranium

that allowed you to survive and through the, you know, the toil of very qualified doctors. You were able to survive and then you end up waking up in the United Kingdom and being introduced to an entirely different life that you didn't necessarily ask for. I mean, you were this advocate and you were speaking out and there was a, there was a, you know, a courage and a boldness to that.

But it's not like you asked for this life that suddenly was kind of imposed on you in many ways. And what comes across in the book is this trade between, you know, the expectations placed on you as a young person, a young girl in Pakistan and the constraints of that, trading that for the constraints of this activist, you know, kind of globally celebrated activist life

that you find yourself in as a young person that never, provide you with the opportunity to figure out who you are and who you want, because suddenly your life is just full speed ahead in so many dizzying directions. I think I just did not get enough time to reflect on myself. And as soon as I was discharged from the hospital in Birmingham, I was doing my first interviews. I was writing my book.

I was signing a documentary deal. I was preparing for my speech at the UN, which is now known as a famous speech, where I said one child, one teacher, one book and one pen can change the world. And then I was a student. I started my school in the UK. I was admitted to an all-girls school. I felt that I was a latecomer. A lot of the girls had already made friends. So I could not fit into the circles. The culture was different. I could not. not understand the slangs and the jargons they were using. So I was a very quiet and lonely student at school. And I missed my time in Pakistan because I knew that this was not me. I knew that I had become a different person that was not feeling like herself anymore. So I would call my best friend from Pakistan from school and ask her to tell me everything

about what was going on because I wanted to reconnect with that old life. And sometimes I wished that I could just be my old self, a bit mischievous and funny and chat with people all day long. I, you know, I just missed that part of me. I did not want to be a boring, quiet student. Yeah, so the school days were difficult in the UK. And on top of that, knowing that every room you walk into, everybody knows who you are and you have security detail and it's like a whole thing, right?

So that precedes your entrance into any kind of social dynamic that complicates. it even further. Yeah. And sometimes I don't blame the people because even in my school before I joined, they had a whole assembly where the principal introduced me. And I think every student was just shy or every student was confused in how they should be treating me because they just thought, you know, she's somebody we have heard of. We just don't know how to be normal with her.

And yes, like my time was limited to being at school and then the time I would get off, I would be going to conferences, events, doing interviews for the cause of girls education. I started a foundation, Malala Fund, to advocate for girls who are out of school. And my parents also were restricting me a bit because they were just worried about my safety and, And I still don't understand why they were so worried. I guess all parents get worried, but they would not even let me go to a friend's like party after school because they were like, you cannot go on your own. So yeah, like I just wanted to have that experience with friends where I felt that like nobody was watching me and I could be myself.

When you look back at those early public speeches, like the UN speech, et cetera, you know, what emotions come up for you? Like, do you have compassion for that young person or do you wish she knew something that you know now? I actually admire her courage. When I look at the Malala who was speaking at the UN, I can see the determination in her, not just for her. her right to complete her education, but for the right of every girl to be in school. But at the same time, I know that she does not have a childhood. She is not herself. I can see that. At times, I used to wish that my life was a bit different and I could be that normal self. But at the same time, I thought, maybe when you become an activist, these are the compromises or the saccharacteries.

or the sacrifices you have to make, that you cannot be a normal person anymore. And that for me meant that I could not have friends, that I could not imagine having somebody in my life who could love me, that all of these things that I, you know, that I'm seeing that I think, you know, every normal girl, young woman should be experiencing

are not going to be a part of my life. Yeah. Yeah. There's a lament. to that. Like, there's a sadness. I mean, the first line of the book is, I'll never know who I was supposed to be. You know, and that's how the whole thing kicks off.

And it's like, I couldn't help but feel a little bit sad about that. You know, you're thrust into this life and you're shouldering tremendous responsibility as this global ambassador who's also responsible for the economic well-being of your family. And it's just so much on a young person, not to mention, you know, having to feel criticism from people all over the world for all kinds of weird reasons. That would be, you know, more than enough for the most well-adjusted adult,

but to be this young person in a foreign land who, you know, is just learning how to speak the language and figure out how to, you know, get along with classmates. It's hard to overstate, like, how overwhelming that must have been. it was and to be honest I was looking for an escape and college was becoming that moment of escapism for me so when I was considering college I was so excited because I knew this would be the first time that I would not be living with my parents I would be living on my own I would be planning my own schedule myself like there nobody's looking at my calendar and nobody should. So I did not know what was ahead, but I was just excited for the

suspense, for the curiosity, for the adventure that was ahead. I did not know if I were going to become this, you know, old version of me, the mischievous, funny, adventurous version of me, but I said, like, I will never know if I don't give it a try. And that's why going to college It was part of my ambition. Of course, I wanted to complete my studies because I wanted to make that dream that I had as a child to be able to complete my education, which the Taliban did not want us to come true.

But at the same time, I said, maybe this is a way I can explore who I am. Yeah, you have this tabla raza, this blank slate where you can figure out who you are and you can unleash your, your inner troublemaker, because you are a troublemaker. A bit.

Like, this is how this whole thing started, right? And suddenly you're expected to be this, you know, very contrite ambassador and this, you know, quieter person in the room. But fundamentally, that's who you are. And suddenly you're in this environment where you have the latitude, the bandwidth to, you know,

explore all of those things. And it's a coming of age book, you know. It's a coming of age book for a young woman trying to figure out who she is. is in the world. And it comes with, you know, anything, all the things that you would expect for, you know, an average person who is in that experience from, you know, social media to going to parties and, you know, climbing the bell tower and, you know, going out for, you know, your first night

at the club and all that kind of stuff. So it's very delightful in that regard, very human and very honest and open. Yes. I really enjoyed the college chapters in this book because I was enjoying just rereading about myself how the Malala I had missed was coming back to life. And I am so grateful that, you know, I could be like every other student. And I remember when I was, you know, when we were packing clothes for my college, my mom was packing all the traditional clothes, which is like Pakistani Shalwaramese, very colorful

and they stand out. And that's how I have been seen in the public. So I was like replacing it with more casual Western clothing, just, you know, normal jeans and a jumper or a sweater because I just did not want to like stand out among the students. And, that was a battle with my mom somehow but but I made it through it and so when I went to college you know I was there as every other student who was new to this campus everybody wanted to make friends one story which I have not mentioned in the book because it would have been too many pages was the principal of college at Oxford emailed me saying that he wants to send out an email to all the new students to inform them that I will be joining and that they should

respect my privacy. And I immediately went back and said, please do not send any email to any student. Like, who sends an email about a student? I want them to see me like they would see any other student. So I remember it was Freshers Week, so the first week of college and I'm like walking around and I see one girl who is the same height as me. So I'm short, I'm like five foot tall. So I was like, huh, you know, my companion.

And turns out she was in the same college. She studied the same subjects as me, PPE. And we were chatting and we were asking each other about what subjects we like, what are we looking forward to, when is our next lecture, what clubs are we signing up for. And it wasn't about, you know, oh, like, what was it like when you won the Nobel Peace Prize? or, you know, what happened to you in Pakistan or, you know, who are the people you have met, tell me everything about them.

I felt that I was finding those friends who were treating me like any other college friend. So I instantly knew, okay, like, I think we can be, like, friends, you know, through this college journey. Finding new friends. But you do talk about the fact that there was a banner with your face on it for what is it like the debate club or something like that.

Oxford Union, yes. So you couldn't quite escape that. And, you know, I'm sure word got around quickly anyway. Yeah, there were moments. But the friends I made, they were just so supportive that in moments like that they would even help with taking photos that, you know, if anybody asked and then they would make a joke and we would move on and talk about the next lecture and the next essay

or what are we doing the evening, where do we want to? want to eat. But you had two metropolitan police officers sort of assigned to you, correct, that kind of had to follow you around and be in your dorm, et cetera. You had to contend with that. Yes, I think, you know, it's not easy to have a few people following you everywhere. And they did not look like college students, of course. They were all like in their 40s and 50s and much older. So They did stand out. But I think they just made sure that everything was okay for me. And I think with that, yes, I was more comfortable just going to events without being worried about safety.

So they made it a lot, a lot easier for me. But at the same time, my friends would sometimes freak out asking me if somebody was stalking me because they thought maybe these people were stalkers or like, you know, why are these guys showing up? But I said, don't worry, they are just here to take care of us. I appreciated your honesty around your academic struggles, too. Like, you know, you're this face of girls' education, right? And you represent that. And yet here you are, like, you know, struggling to make grades and really struggling with how to focus

and how to even just get your assignments done and show up on time for these lectures. Like, there's a whole time management kind of thing going on. you know, as part of this story as well. Yeah. In Oxford, they say that there is socializing, sleep, and studying, and you have to, like, make a compromise on one of these. And I realized that I could not even have any of these.

That's how, you know, my college life was. I think I prioritized socializing over both sleep and studying. I did that because I just wanted to learn from the people around me. That is something that I knew I would not otherwise get because, you know, my life just looks so different in the, in the workspace. This was the first time that I was meeting both girls and boys, especially boys, like my age. I just was fascinated by how, like, you know, what are these young people doing? What are they talking about? I wanted to be in every gathering.

I wanted to talk about any silly topic. We would talk about, you know, whose crush was whom and, like, what was their star sign? And, you know, why did they break up? And I was becoming this, like, therapist for my friends. And I loved all of that. I learned so much from my friends. Like, I remember sitting in the library trying to complete an assignment, but I looked outside and I saw my friends, you know, laughing and just chatting.

And I said, I want to be there. I want to be with my friends right now. I can come back to this book any other time. So I think, you know, yes, you know, by the end of it, yes, you know, I have developed these skills of learning, but it was socializing that helped me grow as a person. and so much more. And you're balancing all of that with your responsibilities to the Malala Fund and having to travel and give talks and go to Lebanon and talk to Tim Cook and, you know, like sort of very fancy, you know, sort of events that you're kind of shooting off and leaving school for, in part because that's who you are and that's what you do as an advocate and an activist, but also because you are responsible for providing for your family at the same time. So you're the sole provider for your family, you're also this student, you're this global activist, trying to balance all of those things and still make passing grades at the same time and have a social life and figure out dating and, you know, in this deferred childhood that you're experiencing, you know, it's a lot.

It was a lot. And I think in the end it was affecting my academic life so much that my tutors got worried. I was missing assignments. I was like late in submitting them. So then my tutor got really worried. And by the end of my first year, I actually nearly failed my exams. That was shocking to everybody. I was not surprised though.

I said, oh, of course if I haven't studied, that's what will happen. But so we did two things. I think one was, you know, the tutor actually wrote to Malala Fund team and my parents that they cannot schedule anything during my college term time. So when I'm in college, it's a full-time role. Like, you know, you are a student. You cannot go and speak at events. And then at the same time, it was getting support at school.

If you are struggling with your studies, you should ask for help. There are facilities. There are study centers that have been made for you. initially I was nervous I thought it was just me and I was somehow doubting myself that you know I might be the imposter why am I struggling but I realized that a lot of students actually get help so asking for help is also really important but you know initially it was on the on the work side it was difficult because the events that I went to whether that was the meeting with Tim Cook in Lebanon or meeting with Prime Minister Justin Trudeau

at the World Economic Forum. All of these things like helped in the advocacy for girls' education. But at the same time, you know, like, yes. Detracting from your own education simultaneously. Yes. And how during this period of time are you reconciling your relationship with your heritage in your culture, while also, you know, exploring what it's like to be, you know, a woman in the West in college.

I think it's really hard for women to even be given the opportunity to know what they love and how, you know, they want to dress, especially, so the culture that I come from in Pakistan, it is restricted for women to, you know, try clothes that are outside that culture. So traditionally we wear chalvarkamese. These are like loose, modest clothes, very colorful, and they stand out. And I have proudly worn those dresses on global platforms. But I think people just sometimes associated so much with you representing your religion or your culture or you becoming an ambassador

that if a woman otherwise is choosing to wear different dress, somehow she is being disloyal to her culture or she's not a good woman anymore. So I was under a lot of pressure to continue wearing chalvarkamis. But when I went to college, I said, you know, I cannot be wearing that every day because I just want to dress like every other student and students just wear jeans and jumpers or sweatshirts.

And it's, you know, it's just like you want to be like every other student. So this whole controversy started when a photo of mine was leaked. Somebody took it. And in that photo, I'm wearing jeans and a bomber jacket. And I'm wearing my headscarf as well. But in the Pakistani diaspora, there was this backlash that I was somehow wearing Western clothes now and that was a sign of, I don't know, like I cannot even explain it what to call it, but it's just the hatred that you receive, the criticism that you receive, that you are not

true to your culture anymore and you are not a good example for girls anymore and all of that. And at the same time, there were people who were criticizing my headscarf that I am not a truly liberated woman if I'm still wearing, you know, something that is part of my religion or culture. So I think with both, there were sides that were sort of not happy either way. Maybe the best way to understand it or explain it is to talk a little bit about what it's like to grow up as. a young girl in Pakistan like in 2012 had none of this happened and you remained what is the common trajectory and expectations that are placed on a young woman and what does that life typically look like I always say that I was lucky because I had a supportive father who stood with me in my right to education because I saw

so many girls not being able to go to school or complete their education because their brothers and their fathers would stop them from learning. So when I imagine a different life in Pakistan, I know that my father and I and my mother, we would constantly be fighting for everything. Can I go to college or not? Can I be on a campus in Pakistan on my own or not? What do I wear? It would be in everyday conversation. When I received this whole, like, backlash and controversy around my genes in the UK, it felt like that culture that was, like, hundreds of miles away from me was still affecting me, that I could not separate myself from it.

You know, my mom and my dad, they were receiving calls from our relatives that, you know, why is Malala not wearing the traditional clothes anymore? And my parents also wished, okay, like, you know, sometimes they just wish this, none of this criticism existed and like, you know, everybody was sort of happy. But I told my parents that I want to be a college student, just like everybody else. I'm not in college for some pilgrimage. I'm here as a normal student, so I'm not going to change what I wear. I'll probably wear my scarf.

Nobody can take that away from me. And I will be wearing jeans as well. nobody can take that away from me. And I will be wearing chalvarka means sometimes. Nobody can take that away from me either. I think it's about choice. Women and girls should have the right to choose what they wear for themselves. This show is sponsored by BetterHelp.

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outer limits of what's acceptable? I think it's a mix of a few things. My father was such an active, bold advocate for women's rights. so I would look up to him. But my mom as well, you know, she is such a bold, strong woman. She could not complete her education as a kid. She didn't go to school. But she has been learning since then.

So she has inspired me. And then I think for me it was this realization that when your life is suddenly under terrorism, you cannot be in school and you realize that things are not going to change by itself. No, if you do not raise your voice, if you do not do something about it, things might remain as they are

if you just keep on waiting for somebody else and help you. So I immediately realized that we have to do everything we can speak locally, speak internationally to media, be part of the protests, raise awareness.

like we have to tell the story. But there is a difference between having that awareness and then getting into action. Like I'm sure a lot of people, you know, have that aware. Like we need to do something. But then there's a lot of, you know, the stakes are very high and you are putting yourself at risk in doing that.

And not everybody has the courage or the circumstances or the support behind them to take that leap into, you know, doing the things that you did. For me, the costs of not speaking out were too high. A life without an education was dark. I had seen girls being married off when they were still children themselves. And their lives were unfulfilled. They never achieved their dreams.

That was a nightmare that I was more scared of a life without an education and then a life where I was speaking out, but there was this threat from the Taliban. How has your activism evolved in the period between addressing the UN and the Nobel Prize, et cetera, to today? It has changed significantly, and it's mostly because of the fact that I have support from people from around the world.

And I started as, you know, as one activist myself, but today we are supporting more than 400 organizations in more than six countries around the world. And it's the power of collective activism that can really drive change. I still stick to my words when I said, you know, one child and one teacher can change the world. but I think it begins with one person, but to make that change happen and to make it a reality, we need collective efforts. So I believe in the power of collective activism now.

The organization which I started is investing directly in local education activists who are just like me and my father trying to raise awareness, change a policy, change legislation, make sure that 12 years of education, like both primary and secondary education, is guaranteed in every country, in every part of the world. We are supporting activists in Pakistan, Nigeria, Brazil, Tanzania, Ethiopia. And then also most importantly, we are working in Afghanistan, where the Taliban have bangles from learning. So we are supporting education activists who are providing education through alternative platforms

and are supporting them in their campaign to put pressure on. leaders to do more. So you're able to hold on to the idealism that that young 15 year old had despite the fact that you're in the world and doing the hard stuff. Like there's a pragmatism to it. Like when you have to confront real world problems and you realize like, oh, this is more complicated. You know, the fact that you're in so many countries now and you've had so much success, I'm sure there's been many obstacles and roadblocks along the way that have confronted you with the limits of how much you're willing to compromise to, you know, achieve these goals. I think this is one of the challenges when you start as a young activist. You are ambitious and

bold, but you also want the change to happen today. This is what would frustrate me the most because, you know, I would be speaking with a world leader or a prime minister and we would be advocating to them to change their budget or, you know, do more for, you know, do more for girls education and they would nod, they would agree, but then nothing would happen the next day. And I would like talk to my team, like, it doesn't make sense to me. Like, what does advocacy even mean? Like, why is everybody agreeing and telling me my story is so inspiring, but we're getting nothing done.

You know, I want them not to treat my story as an exception, but that this is the story of every girl out there. With time, I realized that advocacy is. such a powerful way of activism, but it's also a draining and exhausting process. It could take months. It could take years. It could take decades. And it is significant because when we make that change happen, it can impact millions

of girls. So I learned so much along the way. I have learned that, you know, we have to work collectively. It is about engaging all stakeholders. And I also learned that we need to just do more for protecting the right to education for every girl in the world. Like what we're witnessing in Afghanistan right now happening to girls there, you know, it makes me more worried about, you know, where we are in the world and how there's like little protection for women and girls. Talk a little bit about Afghanistan and what's going on there. Yeah, I mean, the Taliban are back in control now.

It's been four years. and they have imposed a gender apartheid on women and girls. This is what Afghan women activists call it. It is beyond just gender discrimination or some cultural norms. They are abusing their power to restrict women from learning, from working, from any appearance in public life, and they punish women if they are seen doing any of that. The Taliban took over four years ago in August, and that very same week, I was actually in Boston going through my last surgery to recover from one bullet injury by the Taliban.

So the Taliban bullet had injured my facial nerve because of which then I had this facial asymmetry, something that, you know, had affected how I looked before. and I went through many surgeries for that. But this was one last surgery to complete this, you know, facial symmetry and hopefully see a bit more progress in like recovering the smile and so just hearing the news that very same week when I was recovering from that like one bullet by the Taliban to know that now millions of Afghan girls will be living under them and they will be re-experiencing the oppression that Afghanistan had faced 20 years before that, it was scary. It was like living a nightmare.

It's been really challenging time, just like witnessing what's happening there. But I stay determined. It's just a reminder that the words of praise and the recognition and these awards and titles that, you know, we get or I have been given. Sure, like I appreciate that, but what about other girls? You know, why are we not doing more for them? Why is it that once somebody has survived and they have a nice story that we go and clap for them, but when they are still under fire, when they're still facing violence and extremism,

we look away because it's just really hard. It's really hard to help others somehow. So, you know, I'm just doing all that I can to support Afghan activists and just to make sure that things change sooner for them. What does that support look like? I mean, you talked about collective action, but if you could remove the obstacles and the barriers and just solve the problem, like, how would you do that? Like, what are the intractable issues at play that prevent that from succeeding?

Many things. You know, we all know that when it comes to this international system, things get so complicated. There are so many wars going on and we are like, you know, can somebody stop them? I do think that will and intention is really important. And our leaders have so much power, but they look away. So the first thing is like building global pressure on world leaders to hold the Taliban accountable. The second thing is like any conversations that happen with the Taliban, women have to be in those rooms. Women cannot be excluded. They have to be on the agenda as well. And I'm saying this because this actually

has happened repeatedly. Any of these peace talks that have happened, women and the civil society were deliberately excluded. It happened last year as well in Toha, in Qatar, where the Taliban demanded that they do not even want to see women in the conversations. And the UN officials agreed. That shook me that, wait a second. Like, if we cannot even like, like, fight for the women to be present in the room, how can we have hope that we will protect their rights inside Afghanistan? Yeah, the battle's lost before it's even begun. And I think it's just repeatedly like understanding that the Taliban are perpetrators,

it's not the first time that they're doing all of this. They have been in power before, so they're repeating it and they're worse than before. So why are they given a second chance? Why are we being told that, oh, this time these Taliban are different and this is Taliban 2.0? The Taliban have proven it to us in the past four years that they do not see women as equal humans. They treat women as second-class citizens.

And it is a form of an apartheid for women and girls in Afghanistan. If you are born a gun in Afghanistan, you cannot be in school. You cannot imagine working. You have to be just dependent on other family members. You cannot have a future for yourself, you cannot be an artist, you cannot be a singer, you cannot play sports, you cannot be in the government, all of these things are taken away from you. It, like, you know, when I think about a situation like that and just see, like, you know, the world feels so helpless, then, you know, then I worry about women everywhere.

So one campaign that Afghan women are leading right now is to codify gender apartheid in the Crime Against Humanity Treaty. And I know it sounds like a bit too technical and might be sounding too complicated to people. But it simply means that we just do not have protection against systemic oppression like that that, like that, that the Taliban is imposing. And I think it should not just be a topic about Afghanistan. I think it's a topic about women's rights and protection everywhere. if perpetrators like the Taliban, if an oppressive government like the Taliban take over, and they use the system to make women as second-class citizens take away all of their rights, ban them from education and work.

Like, what are we going to do? So when it becomes part of the international law, it not only holds the Taliban accountable, but it then holds every other country in the world accountable for taking actions to, to put pressure on the Taliban, like not normalize relations with them. It's a war of ideas on the global stage because the tool of diplomacy isn't going to work with the Taliban, you know, face to face, right? They're never going to change their mind on this, right? So only by global pressure being placed upon them, is there ever going to be any movement

here? Yeah, so I have talked to Afghan activists about this. We support Afghan education activists who are leading these campaigns. And they all say that, you know, the Taliban need to be pressurized. There needs to be a collective voice from world leaders, but also Muslim leaders as well. I think we need more Muslim countries to step forward. In none of these other Muslim countries are women and girls banned from education and work. So they need to make a clear statement that what the Taliban is doing is actually un-Islamic.

There are many ways from, you know, sanctions to other strategies that can be used against the Taliban to put pressure on them, right? now, like they're getting the money, they're getting everything. They're sort of like supported, but so it is worrying. It is worrying if what leaders are just simply issuing tweets of condemnation and they're not going beyond that. What is the current status in Pakistan? How has it changed since 2012 or has it? So Pakistan is a lot different than Afghanistan, of course.

And even like within Pakistan, if you compare the area. that borders with Afghanistan is very different than the rest of the country. So now with the re-emergence of the Taliban in power in Afghanistan, some areas of Pakistan are also seeing the rise of the Pakistani Taliban and these militant groups. And we sometimes hear the news of schools being attacked or girls being threatened not to go to school. So I do worry, but I don't think it has like affected that many parts of the country. but, you know, it's like the spillover effect when an ideology like the Taliban, like, when an ideology like that of the Taliban is happening in one place, there's no guarantee

that it can happen anywhere else. And that's why I'm hoping that more countries will step up and talk about it and just not treat it as a side issue that's happening somewhere else and that doesn't affect them. During your time at Oxford, there's this tension. between you trying to discover who it is that you are while also balancing all of the expectations that are being placed upon you. You know, not just by the world,

but also your family, there's a certain role that you're kind of intended to play. Was there ever a moment during that period of time where you thought maybe you didn't want to be an activist anymore? Maybe you wanted to be a biologist or something else. or have you remained convicted that this is your life path? Just for fun, yes, I have thought about what else I could have been. And I do ask this question myself all the time, like, you know, what would that little Malala have wanted?

I remember my first dream job was to be a car mechanic because I loved fixing things. I also wanted to be a doctor for a long time. Then I wanted to be the prime minister of Pakistan. And then I said, okay, like, these politicians are also rubbish, so maybe something else. But Benazir Buto is still, you know, it seems to me that she's your greatest inspiration. Is that true? I mean, she went to the same school at Oxford, right? Yeah, we were in the same college.

Is that part of the reason why you selected that college? No. There were, the college is called Lady Margaret Hall. and it was the first women's college in Oxford. And it's a beautiful college. It has a beautiful library and gardens. Benazir Bhutto went to that college as well. So the first female Prime Minister of Pakistan,

there were so many add-ons. And I said, like, I love this place. But the thing that stayed with me when I first visited the college were the gardens and the river that flows by it. And when I was by the river, I just felt a sense of belonging just by being so close to something that I had, that I remembered from my time in Pakistan, in Swat Valley, in like in my village, because, you know, we have, we have mountains and rivers there. And it just made me feel closer to home. So it's something like I just could not explain to anybody, but yes, it was definitely the river and the gardens that I love the most. But also the library, right?

You talk about how you had only had a couple books, you know, you'd only own a couple books in your entire life. And then suddenly you're in this, you know, prestigious college. And there's all these books available to you, but also the intimidation of like, oh, my God, like I've never, you know, like I don't even, you know, know what that means. Like, how can, how are you going to manage that? Yes. And actually, women were not allowed to go to other colleges or libraries at Oxford at the time.

So this college, when they started, like, allowing women to study, also started collecting books for them. So there was this whole history behind it, how women just, you know, 100 plus or so years ago, did not have access to education even in a country like the UK. Do you feel like this path that you're on was divinely inspired for you? Like, there's so many unlikely events that have occurred. just the fact that like you're living this life, when you were 12 years old, you couldn't have fathomed for yourself. That on paper doesn't make sense at all.

And yet here you are shouldering this responsibility and really like I can feel in your energy, like you're owning it, you know? You're really, you're standing up and really owning this place, this position that you have in the world. It is true. I have owned

this new trajectory that my life has taken, I realized that there was not much I could do. You know, that's just the reality. You cannot go back to the old life. You have to think about the fact that, yes, you know, you have to recover and security is an issue and you have to restart your school. Okay, like college, before you know it, you have come like a long way. And you realize, like, I just, I thought out, like, in my head, I thought, I would go back to Pakistan.

I just wanted, like, to be back with my friends and all of that. But, you know, like this year in springtime, when I went back to Pakistan, and when I visited a school that we have started there for girls, and it's the first school that is giving education to girls that they can, like, complete up to grade 12. I just was fathoming this moment that if I had not taken this different path maybe the school would not have been possible

and this has been my dream the whole time to be able to help girls access education to make their dreams come true so when I was meeting the first class that are graduating from the school for the first time in that whole village we are having this number of girls like 30 plus girls to graduate from grade

12, like it's insane. It's happening. Even though it's like 20, 25, it's happening for the first time. I was like, maybe, you know, maybe for whatever reasons, all that has happened, happened for a good reason. And sometimes I think you have to turn it around. You have to make sure that this new pathway now serves your purpose. I think you all know that I'm all about wellness, but what I'm not really about is our culture's current obsession with focusing on the margins of wellness, things like expensive, exotic adaptogens, or the latest extreme biohacking trend, while also at the same time, often overlooking the basic fundamentals, nutrients that are foundational to thriving. Research suggests that many of us struggle to get optimal amounts of protein, creatine, or omega-3s from food alone. But these three nutrients are the bedrock of cellular health. Brain function, muscle recovery, cardiovascular support.

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get 20% off. That's birchliving.com slash richroll. You're not without your critics. One of my favorite parts in the book is when you come across some not so nice things being said about you on Instagram, and you decide to do what I think a lot of young people do, which is create a Finsta, like a fake Instagram account, and you fill it with images of bodybuilders and then you start to engage with this person. I mean, yes. Does that account still exist? No, I deleted it. I was worried. I was worried. I said me, bodybuilder, six bags. You know, I came across this comment on Instagram on a post about me and this person had threatened me.

So I said, okay, like, I want to understand how people think and if I can convince this person. So I started chatting with them and said, why do you want to attack Malala and why do you hate her? That person just was not providing any explanation. He was just saying, you know, she's, you know, she's a bad person and this time when she comes back to Pakistan, we will make sure she goes to hell. I was shaking when I was texting, and I went to my school friend, Alice, and I said, oh, my God, like, here are some screenshots. I, like, I don't know how to handle this.

And she said, delete your account. Stop chatting. She said, like, never do this. Did you share that with your security detail? I mean, it's sort of, like, reported, but, yeah, it's just you never know who runs these accounts and what happens. But how did the experiment go of trying to, you know, confront this person? I, and this is something that I'm still trying to process, you know, when I was young, still in school, and, you know, when I became known as this like global advocate for peace and for education, in my, in my heart, I was just thinking about how we can go and convince every person that girls should be allowed to be. be in school. How can we get rid of hatred? How can we spread more love and more compassion?

And I was of the view that somehow, like, we could magically make everybody think the same way and come to an agreement. And why would that be controversial or something that would open you to criticism? That's not controversial. It's just like that's how I used to think. But that's what I mean. Like, all you want is to do this thing that. But I realized that I thought, like, I could. And I think this is something that we all have to reflect on is that can we go and convince every person to think like us? And if they don't, what does that mean? Does it mean we hate them? Does it mean we target them? Or does it mean we actually agree to coexist in harmony, in compassion, even if we don't have the same opinions? And that's what I actually am now focusing

on, like, how do we, like, agree to disagree? How do we carry more compassion for each other, even if we do not have similar views? Try to find the common bonds, like, because before we even realize when we start talking, there's so much that we actually agree on, then we disagree on. So I'm less focused on, like, I want everybody to think exactly like me and more on. I want to hear you, and I want you to hear me as well. But beneath that is an assumption that through that process, you can come to some understanding, right? And in this experiment on Instagram, it didn't exactly go that way.

No, it was early days. And I think, you know, you're... Because I want you to convince the person. I wanted to figure out what do they think deep in their head, you know, and to tell them like, don't, don't hate this person. And I just could not, you know. What do you think people most misunderstand about you? Like if there's a misunderstanding flowing around out there about you that drives you nuts? Many, but I think it's that I am a serious person because I talk about serious issues,

which then somehow people assume means I am just boring and serious, but that's not actually true. No, all you have to do is go to your TikTok or your Instagram. My TikTok, read my book, learn about me at college, learn about me, you know, with my now husband and how funny and annoying I am. And so, yeah, I think I want to share a bit more about my humor and, and I think for me, it was being true to myself. So these are like true, honest reflections. I have not hidden anything.

There are moments that I am like, you know, I regret. I'm like, you know, why would I say that or why did I do that? But, you know, I sort of was opening up about everything in this book. In the writing of the book, I suspect that just that process in and of itself was its own form of therapy, forcing you to confront your own story and make sense of it as a process of reconciling your past and maybe some experiences that you were deprived of and other ones that you didn't necessarily sign up for. that you were thrust into. What did you learn most about yourself

as a consequence of this project? This whole writing process was therapeutic. I spoke with my friends. I went back to my journals. I reflected on many things that have happened in my life. It was difficult, but it helped me get a closer look. And I also realized how there were things that actually saved me and helped me

when I was going through the lowest points in my life. So when I had anxiety and panic attacks and flashbacks of the attack, I was introduced to therapy. That changed everything for me. So I was hoping that, you know, that through sharing my story, I can help somebody out there who might feel lost, who might not know that, you know, they could ask for help. I wish I had heard a story like this and I wish I knew that, you know, therapy is okay and you should ask for help sooner.

So I'm hoping that this can help somebody out there. The mental health journey that's baked into the story, I mean, you didn't have to be as open and honest about how that unfurled as you were. Like your first panic attack was in the aftermath of doing your first bong hit, you know, Like, and that's, I'm sure, you know, when people read that, they're going to be like, oh, my God, you know, just envisioning you doing that. I know. Like, I thought that was going to be the beginning of my, you know, journey, exploring and experimenting things. But that became my first and last bong experience because it just didn't turn out how I expected it to be. I remember that night because, you know, it became a scary night.

I was initially like with my friends you were just chatting about college life and we were in the college gardens and they showed me bong and I said oh like what is this they said you know it's sort of weed you try it and like first attempt I coughed on the second attempt when I inhaled it I felt it just went all inside my body and that's when it took a sharp turn because my body froze I could not even move and immediately I thought I was reliving the Taliban attack. And I felt that I was, you know, I was going to die. You know, it's that time in this induced coma that I experienced after the Taliban attack where I could not understand what was happening if I was awake or asleep if I was alive dead. And in that whole night after this Wong experience, I was sweating, shaking, terrified. I wanted to scream. It was like truly, truly a nightmare. And I could not sleep. I could not sleep because I thought if I closed my eyes, I would die. And it took me actually months

to seek therapy. So for like this flashback and then panic attacks. started. I was not being myself anymore. But my college friends actually saw that something was not okay. And then one of my friends said that I should see a therapist. And she told me that it's okay. Like a lot of students see therapists. Yeah. So seven years later after the attack was when I started therapy again. And you had to overcome whatever narrative you had in your mind about what therapy meant in order to walk into that. You know, they ask you how was, you know, how are you feeling today and, you know, and what does that make you feel? I just thought they would never understand my experiences.

So when I went to my first therapy session, I thought I would be given all the medication that would make all of these problems go away. And I was like waiting for some treatment for it to be fixed. But, you know, I learned that it was actually a process, you know, learning how your thoughts. and emotions are different from the actions and just understanding that, you know, this is actually PTSD and anxiety. That's what my therapist told me that, you know, it can happen. I think for me the most, like, disappointing or painful part was that it was happening after such a long time. I thought that I had overcome the attack, it was a story of the past, and somehow it all came back, like, as if it just happened all over again. That was really painful to process, and I just hated that.

I was like, you know, I wish it's not PTSD. I just did not want to have PTSD, but these things can affect you, and I think it's important to raise awareness about it. Because you thought that that would mean that you were weak, or because, it was going to be so much work to get to the other side of it. I think it was both. I actually felt that I was not living up to the expectation of being brave and courageous. I thought I had somehow failed how I was supposed to be. And I was like really proud of myself before that, look, survived a bullet.

Look where I am. I'm fighting for all girls. And suddenly seven years later, I am shaking. I'm getting scared and frightened. You know, when I cannot even figure out what is it that's making me scared. It's, you know, it's this fear from nothing that is really, really scary. But you recognize, of course, the insanity of believing that this young person who was literally shot in the head by terrorists and, you know,

wakes up in a completely different world with the world, the entire world paying attention to you and you're suddenly, you know, doing all of these things that were so off script from what you thought your life was gonna be like, this might be something you might want to talk to somebody about. Like, there's no way anybody could endure that without, you know, having to, you know,

kind of grapple with it and reconcile it. Like it's just, you know, it's the very definition. of surviving a drama. Yeah. I think I feel that the memory of the attack was there all along. I feel like my mind refused to acknowledge it. And this flashback experience many years later in college

was reminding me that maybe I did remember maybe I did see what the Taliban did and it was actually scary to comprehend that at the same time I was just coming to understand

what that means for me now like I still want to be an activist for girls and am I failing if I feel scared and I redefine bravery now

I think it is when you still stand up, despite the anxiety, the panic attacks, the doubts, the trauma. I call it true courage now, true bravery. Courage and bravery don't presuppose that there is no fear. It's taking the action in the face of that. Yeah, but I understood it the other way around. Yeah. Yeah. And is it true that you're still with the same therapist?

I believe at the end of the book, you were still seeing the same person. But the book ends like five years before today. Yeah, I started seeing the therapist again. Yes. And I'm still seeing her. And if you were to say something to the audience or the person who's watching or listening to this who has some trepidation around therapy, what is that message? I think firstly, it is different for everybody. So I do not call myself a mental health expert, but I am sharing my story of my mental health journey because I want all of you to know that this can happen to any of us at any time in our life. And it's never too late to ask for help.

Be there for those who need us and ask for help. when you need it. In order for you to do what you do, your work, your advocacy, your activism to the best of your ability, requires that you place yourself, like you're basically having to retramatize yourself because you're exposing yourself to environments

similar to the one that you survived. And so it makes perfect sense that this would, you know, maintaining your mental health is, like the number one priority in this lifelong mission that you're on because your ability to be an activist at the highest level

means that you have to show up as your best self otherwise as we were talking about earlier you're going to burn out or something's going to crack and you're not going to be able to continue to do it. I have started looking after myself. Initially I thought that when you are an activist it means you work 24-7

and you do not eat, you don't sleep, you don't sleep, but I was wrong. I realized that when I started, like, looking after myself more, that included, like, sleeping enough hours or going out for a walk, taking some fresh air. I was actually being more productive. I was getting more done in less hours. So, yeah, like, fitness has become a whole new thing for me.

Well, one thing we share in common is we're both wearing a woo. I was like, I didn't expect you to show up wearing a woo. Yes, I think I love it. But the thing that I'm really scared to look at is my whoop age. That's frightening. The new, yeah, the new thing. I know, it's like, you're aging really fast. I'm like, please don't tell me.

Please do not tell me that. What is your relationship with, you know, that kind of data and feedback and also with social media? Yeah, I mean, I say this to everybody. It's supposed to, like, indicate something. It's supposed to guide you. Do not take it as fixed numbers about where you are in life with your health and fitness. So if it's showing something like, you know, about your fitness level or, you know, your recovery or how good your sleep is, it's just telling you like, you need to change your habits about it. Like, that's the most important thing.

But I also panic sometimes when I look at my sort of readings and I'm like, huh, you know. Your sleep score. Sometimes you're like, you know what? I'm just going to take it off because it's hard to look at it. But yeah, I realized that sleep is the most important thing. You have to start from there. I no longer have vanilla with French fries anymore for my food. I am trying to eat better.

You are on this fitness journey, though. You're like sharing on social media, you know, your workouts and, you know, videos of you on the treadmill and things like that. And in the book, you talk about discovering fitness as a, you know, therapeutic for your mental health and this goal that you had to be able to run an hour and then ultimately facing your fear of the water like learning how to swim as almost a trust exercise for your mental health. These are places where I could never see myself. So I feel like it's an adventure where you allow yourself to be in unfamiliar environments, trusting water to hold you when you learn to swim or trusting your body to be able to do something.

I never thought that I could run or I could play golf. I could hit a ball with a racket. All of these things are just truly magical when you give it a try. So I said, you know what, like it doesn't matter how bad I am at each of these things. I just want to play. I just want to try it. And I'm like a completely different person when I'm playing a sport. I become like so competitive.

I become aggressive. And if it's my husband playing against me, then, oh, you know. What are your favorite sports to play then? So we both play golf. I've been taking lessons for more than two years now. And I love it. I absolutely love it. But on the sports tip, I mean, there's also an entire.

entrepreneur story with you. There is the activism and the Malala Fund and the nonprofit world that, you know, is your focus and your priority. But you also have recess capital with your husband where you're investing in women's sports right now. And you have extracurricular, which is your production company, where you're involved in the production of films and documentaries. But maybe start with the women's sports piece, how did you get interested in that and what's going on right now in terms of your involvement? Sports is one thing that both my husband and I are so passionate about. And, you know, we have been following women's sports very closely. We have been going to women's sports games. So we started this farm, which is called Recess Capital, that invests in women's sports ecosystem. And for us, it's this ambition that we want to create.

more opportunities for women and girls to play and that women's sports should be treated as a sports business like any other male sports. So, you know, I think about girls who are at school and in recess time they are trying, you know, different sports. You know, the boys can imagine playing like all of these famous athletes that they hear about and they can think about the leagues where they can make a career, we need to create similar opportunities for girls as well. So I want the recess time to look differently for girls in the future where a girl can play any sport and she can imagine a career for herself in that. What is the current state of girls' sports in Pakistan?

It, you know, it is gaining some momentum. We are passionate about playing cricket. That is a sport everybody loves. but you know it's it's it's like far behind men's sports we have cricket which is like the biggest sport in the country we have the men's cricket team and we have actually a private league called Pakistan Super League for men but we don't have a women's version of that yet which you know like if you think about all the sports and how many leagues there are for like men how many private leagues there are where they could just go and play around, you know, in different

places throughout the year and make, you know, a living. There's plenty for men. For women, there's like very, very few. Obviously, the Middle East, there's a, you know, a wide spectrum in terms of women and girls' rights and the relationship of those cultures to sports. But it does feel like there is change in some. some of those regions. I know I've seen it firsthand.

I've been to Beirut a couple times and I did the Beirut Marathon. And that's a big one for women across the Middle East running. And you see these run clubs of girls and women from all different regions of the Middle East coming to kind of celebrate women in movement through that event. I think things are changing for women everywhere. especially through sports right now I remember having this conversation with my husband

when we were thinking about starting recess capital I asked him what his school life was like as a boy and what sports opportunities did he have access to he said yes all of them like he went to a good school in Pakistan they could play hockey and cricket

and football everything and then I was comparing it to my life as a student in Pakistan on a sports day the boys would go to the local cricket ground and the girls had to stay back in the school like there was just no opportunity no field, no space for them

no equipment for them and that makes you think that if we do not create opportunities for them if we do not invest in it like things are just going to be as they are so I you know I hope that more and more people come in and create more opportunities for women and girls in sports everywhere.

And, you know, we'll also be doing our part. On the film and documentary side of things, how does that work? What is the model of your production company? Because you've been involved in a bunch of projects at this point already. So my production company has worked with Apple TV. We have two documentaries on Apple TV already called The Last of the Sea Women, which is the story of Korean free divers. And the second one is Bread and Roses,

which is the story of three brave Afghan women who share with us about their life when the Taliban take over and how they stand up to them. We're working on a lot of other projects as well. But now extracurricular is focusing more on creating sports content to be in sync with the recess capital work. And these are all of a piece with your advocacy work. like thematically.

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I have been an activist for more than 15 years now. Yeah. I understand the strengths of the nonprofit world. You know, I have raised more than $200 million and invested that in local education activists. We have changed policies. We have like impacted the lives of millions of girls out there.

But I also know that, you know, we cannot limit ourselves to like one path. We have to think about the bigger picture. For me, it is empowering education activists, investing directly in girls. The second thing is storytelling. I believe that storytelling can help us change perspectives. It can help us change the narrative. And that can, like, unlock opportunities for so many more girls and women. And then the other one is, like, create opportunities and platform for them, like, you know,

giving them more power, giving them more tools, that we're not just talking about. you know, these, the world that it should be, but we are actually getting in and making that happen. I have been asked to give a message of empowerment to girls many, many times. I mean, that's what I've been doing, like inspire girls. And I tell girls, yes, believe in yourself and follow your dreams. But their response to me is, like, there are still, like, no opportunities for us in this field, in this sector. Like, you know, less opportunities in sports, less opportunities in the storytelling world, in the filming world. And so when you reflect on it, you realize,

okay, I think we need to do more. What if we can be a part of the change where we create and invest in these opportunities for women and girls so that, you know, when they have a dream, they know that there is a pathway to make that dream come true. What are the biggest obstacles

that you currently face? To achieve, yeah, I mean, just, I'm just thinking like in your day to day, like in many things that you're doing, are there recurring things that come up that that frustrate you, that you wish you could overcome more easily? Or perhaps obstacles that people might not be aware of that are ever present in you trying to, you know, push your ideas forward. I mean many things, but just right now, I'm thinking a lot about how the world of social media is exposing us in such a different and difficult way. So, you know, like I come across all sorts of comments and backlash and responses. And I sometimes notice that people are talking about what other people are saying. or like, you know, some sort of like a misleading headline they're talking about

and I see less effort towards actually getting to know the person so my hope is that, you know, people if they're interested, can know me by like following my work directly, more closely rather than just like following some sort of narrative or rumor out there

they can read my books, they can like follow my accounts, they can like see closely what I advocate for who I am. So yeah, that's sort of one thing I wish for more. And that's why I have like openly talked about myself in my new book. Outside of your relationship with your husband, do you have mentors or other people in your close circle who advise you or inspire you in in certain ways? I have a lot of incredible people around me. But it's usually my college friends who I can go People from the book.

Any time, yes. I think when I'm with them, I don't feel like I have to sound so perfect and I have to like figure it all out when I speak to them. I go to them when I have no clue what I'm saying. And I like, I need them to listen to me and, and just help me like process my thoughts. And, you know, I treasure those friends because when I, with them, I don't feel like they're judging me. I can be myself. And this is a sense of like security that I get around them that I absolutely love. So I feel a lot more comfortable when I'm

chatting with my friend about like anything in life. Do you have a particular project right now that you're energized around or excited about that's on the near horizon? Yes, I'm I'm really excited about the work that Afghan women activists are leading right now to codify gender apartheid. Of course, it's going to be a few years long journey, but the Crime Against Humanity Treaty would open up for conversations in 2026. And I hope that we ask our representatives, our leaders, to do more about it and ask them about their commitment to gender equality if they're failing to do anything for Afghan women and girls.

So I'm excited, I'm optimistic. I hope that we'll be able to shift the narrative and hopefully drive the conversation in the right direction. So Afghan women and girls have justice, and at the same time, you know, that the future actually changes. They can be in school, they can go to work. When I think about the young version of you who said, how does it go like one book, one teacher, one pen? Is that what you said exactly?

I said one child, one teacher, one book and one pen can change the world. When you see that young face saying that, it's easy to say, oh, well, that's just the idealism of a young person. But you are proof. You have proved that to be the case. Like, it is true. your life is, you're a living example of that. So when you are talking to or thinking about the younger generation of people, of activists that are out there or people who are aspiring to make a positive impact on the world, do you have a variation on that message now having lived much more life? Like what do you want to say to the young generation of up and coming people?

who want to do something meaningful? Young people are so ambitious and they're already advocating for justice, whether that is for climate or social issues or communities and people around the world. So I don't think like young people need any advice from me to be honest, I look up to them and I think more of us should be looking up to young people

and actually follow their footsteps. But, you know, a few things that I have learned from my own experience as an activist are that, firstly, you know, we have to stay truthful. You know, sometimes it's about being true and it's about holding the same values for everyone and talking about a fairer and better, like, future for every person. So I think, like, truth is the most important thing. And I, you know, I encourage everybody who becomes an activist who's questioning, like, what should I say and what

should I focus on? Like, like, be true. Be true to yourself and be true to the issue that you want to highlight. And truth is sometimes really hard to address and really hard to talk about, but you need to have open and honest conversations and be, you know, be truthful. And the second thing is collective advocacy I admire every person who stands up because they create the spark they set a direction for others to follow but it is the work of people coming together

that can help us see change so I think about when people mobilize each other but I also think about different sectors coming together from you know businesses and private sector to all of these other platforms that we have, we all should be reflecting on how we can play a part and it should not just be about like NGOs and the activists. Or just what you're saying on social media.

Yeah, exactly. You know, that's, you know, a piece in a larger puzzle that you then need to take into the world and actually take action collectively. Yeah. I started my activism at a time when I had literally nothing. My dad and I could only speak and tell our stories. Like, that was our weapon.

But, you know, now that I have, like, a platform like Malala Fund, I am doing fundraising to invest in other education activists. I think about how, you know, we are moving and shifting policies. You know, I've realized that sometimes, like, putting a statement or a tweet about every issue is going to do little. And I'm not like discouraging it. I'm not criticizing people who do that. I'm like, yes, like I need to do it from time to time.

But sometimes I just think about like more practical actions first before I actually consider a tweet. I think about, you know, who can I call? Who can we write to? Can I be at that place? Can we go and support a local organization there? This is like, I think about more practical steps and I would encourage other people as well to think about that. On social media, like people tweet about something and they feel like they have, you know, said the correct thing even though I think we should not have that view either because there are different nuances and we should actually acknowledge that, you know, everybody is coming from a different perspective and they all can be true at the same time.

But I think just, you know, doing a tweet and then feeling good about yourself, I don't think that is going to contribute to a change in the long term. We have to think about more ways in which we are shifting conversations, we are mobilizing communities, we are empowering those who are actually doing work on the ground, who are delivering the support. we have to think about how do we hold leaders to account, how do we shift their policies and and their conversations. So, like, I sometimes want people to, like, step back a bit. Sure. This is all wisdom that you earned, though, as a result of walking the path that you've been on, that you didn't have when you were, you know, when the incident occurred.

So in the context of young people, like, they're going to have to figure that out for themselves, I suppose. But I think passing that on is very helpful. Yeah, and I feel like I'm still learning, so I actually hesitate to give any advice to people because I'm like, this is one thing we need to change, actually, when people think they know it all. Actually, there's very little that we know. I travel around the world. I meet incredible people, and every time I learn so much that I'm like, I don't think I know anything.

Is there an example where you were convinced something was a certain way and only by traveling to the place and engaging with the people there. Did you discover that what you believed was incorrect? I mean, many things, but I think about the policy level changes that are happening in Nigeria for girls' education. And for me, I was like, you know, I can, why don't I just go and sit down with the president and tell him, do this? And he signs the paper and, you know, thumbs up, education is there for everybody.

But that's not how it happens. These activists begin with research, they collect data, they actually give a picture of the reality, like what is actually happening in these communities, how many girls are out of school, what exactly is happening to them, how many schools are there, how many, you know, teachers are there, and they tell us what is actually missing. Then they engage different government officials at different levels. They start that conversation. Then the government officials have to be told, like, this is something that actually benefits. your narrative and your manifesto. Governments keep changing. You have to be prepared for when the transition happens

and how you have to bring that conversation back. You have to acknowledge that the system is much more complicated. State governments are different than the federal ones and how do you bring them together? So when I was in Nigeria, just a few weeks ago, I was meeting the education activists that Malala Fund is supporting. And they were explaining it to me

how some of the policy changes that they are seeing happen in some of the states in Nigeria is the outcome of years of work. So they were able to pass legislation in Adamawa state and in the Kaduna state, which now guarantees 12 years of education to every girl. And, you know, it's like so simple. Like, that should have been done a long time ago. But it required mobilizing different political bodies, people. making committees, doing a lot of research work on the ground, engaging like girls and the local

community leaders, there are like religious people who are very influential in the community engaging them. And it's like when I, when I just follow their stories of how they make the work happen, I realize that it's not simply about doing a tweet and giving one speech that can fix it. It's a combination of all of that. It's a combination of everything. So we have to think in the long term we have to have like a pathway of when we are doing something or saying something where are we actually heading and what is it that we want to to see in the end so the work in Nigeria that education activists are doing is truly incredible talk a little bit about where that deep commitment to your education came from I knew that my family was exceptional because

I had seen how many girls were missing out on their education. So I, like, loved every day in school. You know, I have met now kids from around the world and I have seen how, like, they complain about school and they can't wait to finish their school. It was the other way around for us in Pakistan. My girlfriends and I just hated, like, finishing school. We wanted to be in our school forever.

And whenever we would do like henna on our hands, we would draw like math equations and like, you know, physics like formula and stuff like that. That's how much we loved it. We were all about school and learning. And what do you make of that? Like where does that come from? Why is there that difference, you know, whereas, as you pointed out, like, you know, in the West, it's like we just can't wait to get out of school or get out, you know, get out of having to go to class? I think we have seen closely what it means to not have the opportunity to be in school. Like, you know, I remember the days when the Taliban announced a ban on girls' education. It was January 2009. I was 11 years old. And all my girlfriends and I could not go to school.

And I remember the day when my brothers packed their school bags and put on their school uniform and walked off. And I had to stay behind at home. So when you realize that it can actually be, you know, a reality for girls where they're told they cannot learn, they cannot be in school, it frightens you, it scares you for like just the different life that women are supposed to live, where they are just not treated as equal humans. And it's like really, really scary. I, you know, we see it happening in Afghanistan right now under the Taliban. But we're hearing these stories still from many parts of the world. Like, it's still a reality in many countries. So I think women and girls know because they know the costs of not being in school.

And that's why nobody knows the importance of education more than those women and girls. And sometimes I'm asked to explain the importance of education. And I say, go ask a girl. She'll tell you. What is your counsel to the person who says to you, I'm not an activist, I have a full-time job, my life is busy, I want to be involved, but, you know, I've never done anything like this before. Like, what are three things that you could share that would be helpful in helping someone like that get involved? I think activism begins with a question like that. It's the will to be able to do something.

And for me, the definition of activism is much broader. I do not just see it simply as protesting on the streets or, you know, saying chants all the time. I think we can all be doing activism in private, in public spaces. So, you know, here are a few things that I would, like, encourage someone. who is interested to do, I think the first one would be to know what they're passionate about, you know, what is it that interest them, what is it that causes anger, like, you know, what is it that they want to address? I think just knowing what you want to see change is really important.

The second one is talk to the people who are working for it. They will tell you how you can be helpful to them. It could be spreading the word. It does not always have to be on social media. You know, it can even be having a conversation with your family members, with your colleagues, or in your workspace. It's, you know, when we start a topic or a conversation, that can be helping change perspectives in a lot of ways and just, you know, like never underestimating the support that we give, whether

that is fundraising or, you know, bringing attention to the work that these other activists are doing. I think it's still part of the collective activism. You're still so young. You have your entire career ahead of you. Looking into the future, 10 years, 20 years down the road, what does the world look like if you get your way? Wow. I mean, every girl is in school.

Education is a right that is there for every child. Like, it's no longer a privilege. I want to see a world where every girl can choose her own future and she can decide that pathway for herself and I hope that we all make it come true. And what is your aspiration for the book? What do you want people to get out of reading this book? I hope that this book is a fun, enjoyable read for everybody.

I know that there are tough topics in it as well So I hope that it opens a conversation about talking about mental health or topics like a sense of belonging and how do we navigate through these changes and transitions in our life. And I think most importantly, if there is somebody who is going through a challenge in life or a mental health struggle, I hope that they know that they can always ask for help and they should ask for help. I hesitated in doing that, but I'm so happy that in the end I did ask for help and I did start getting therapy. That changed everything for me. So I hope that it can help somebody out there. Well, I will say that, you know, Malala, you know, I can't imagine somebody who has lived a more different life than I have. but in the specificity of the story

that you tell on this book, there's something universal in it because we all have our struggles and our mental health challenges. And I think every human being also goes through that process of trying to figure out who they are, like what part of my identity has been imposed upon me and what part of this is authentically me.

I think that's a journey, that's a very human journey. and I think we can all find a little piece of ourselves in this beautiful book that you've written and I commend you for writing it and I commend you for the openness and the authenticity. Like you're exposing yourself in a very real way, but the consequence of that is that I'm able to sit across from you

and feel like I'm seeing the whole human. Oh, thank you. Yeah, and I encourage everybody to pick it up, finding my way. And if people want to get involved in what you're doing through the Malala Fund, can you say a little bit about how they can do that? Yes, so they can go to malala.org website. They can see the work that we are doing. There are different toolkits. If you want to raise awareness about the work, you could also donate and support the work that Malala Fund is doing. Yeah, I would really appreciate that. And keep being a troublemaker.

Thank you. We did it. Thank you so much. I appreciate it. That's it for today. Thank you for listening. I truly hope you enjoyed the conversation. To learn more about today's guests, including links and resources related to everything discussed today,

visit the episode page at richroll.com, where you can find the entire podcast archive, my books, Finding Ultra, voicing Change, and the Plant Power Way. If you'd like to support the podcast, the easiest and most impactful thing you can do is to subscribe to the show on Apple Podcasts, on Spotify, and on YouTube, and leave a review and or comment. And sharing the show or your favorite episode with friends or on social media is, of course, awesome and very helpful. This show just wouldn't be possible without the help of our amazing sponsors who keep this podcast running wild and free. To check out all their amazing offers, head to Richroll.com. slash sponsors. And finally, for podcast updates, special offers on books, and other subjects, please subscribe

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Peace. Plants. Namaste. You know,