The Rich Roll Podcast - Marc Ching On Risking His Life To End Asia’s Dog Meat Trade

Episode Date: December 19, 2016

This week's guest is a straight up hero. One of the most courageous and committed animal rights activists I have ever met, Marc Ching (@animalhopeandwellness) is the founder of Animal Hope and Wellness Foundation, a non-profit devoted to the rescue and rehabilitation of dogs abused and often tortured at the hands of the Asian dog meat trade. A family man, successful small business owner and animal lover who has been treating dogs (and humans) for years as a holistic nutritionist, in 2011 Marc began using his skills to rescue and rehabilitate abused dogs in need and place them into homes — work he does primarily in and around his home in Los Angeles. But Marc's evolution into an ardent animal rights activist didn't begin until 2015, when he heard about something called the Yulin Dog Meat Festival in China. He understood that dog meat is simply part of the regional cuisine across many parts of Asia. What he didn't understand were the reports of mistreatment and abuse. So he decided to infiltrate the festival to learn more. What Marc discovered was an utterly horrific, systemic practice of torture far more pervasive than anything he could have previously imagined. Life for Marc would never be the same again. According to the Humane Society, 30 million dogs are slaughtered every year across Asia with an estimated 10 million per year in China alone. A significant portion of these animals are brutally tortured — often burned and boiled alive prior to death — a practice attributable to the bizarre and misguided belief that tortured dog meat tastes better and provides enhanced health benefits. Let that sink in for a moment. Attending Yulin transformed Marc from an essentially normal, suburban family man into a man obsessed. Over the last two years, Marc has devoted all his free time and resources to combating the Asian dog meat trade. Posing undercover as as a wealthy dog meat buyer, he has traveled extensively across China, Vietnam, Cambodia, Laos, South Korea and Indonesia to document and expose the inhuman practices of this barbaric industry. This is dangerous work. Marc has been chased, harassed, beat up and even shot. But to date, he has saved over 1,000 dogs, many on his own dime. More importantly, his work has been essential in catalyzing global awareness of dog meat trade practices, which in turn has led to legislative and regulatory reform. There is something undoubtedly heroic about Marc. But it's a heroism that comes at a cost. This work has traumatized him. Perhaps even permanently damaged him. He's made peace with the trade-off. Maybe that makes him even more heroic. I don't know. Mark's work has been extensively profiled in outlets that include the New York Times, Forbes, Entrepreneur, The Hollywood Reporter, The Telegraph, The Independent, Buzzfeed, and even Breitbart. It's an honor to celebrate the difficult work that Marc does. My hope is that this conversation will raise additional awareness around wrongs we must collectively work to correct. NOTE: The subject matter of today's conversation is disturbing. It's an emotional conversation that traverses sensitive issues. That said, I believe it's an important conversation to have as conscious, global citizens. A conversation I don’t think we can or should shy away from. Enjoy! Rich

I'm a huge believer in humanity. I wake up and I look at my children and I see something that's so pure and at that age they don't know what violence is. They don't know how to hate yet. And I think that is what inspires me to do the things that I do. But I think the best thing or the thing that I would ask of everybody is just do a little more, regardless of what it is. You don't have to help us. You don't have to support us, but be more conscious and, you know, hug someone who's crying. I mean, something just like that could change a life and change the world. And so, yeah.

That's Mark Chang, and this is The Rich Roll Podcast. The Rich Roll Podcast. What's up, people? It's Rich Roll. This is my podcast. Welcome or welcome back to the show where I get intimate and go long form with some of the most inspiring thought leaders and positive paradigm-breaking change makers all across planet Earth. Or at least the ones who are willing to sit down with me, I suppose, right? Can you hear the rain on the roof? Pitter patter. I'm in my office. It's driving me insane. Not much

I can do about it. I hope it's not too distracting For those that want to go the extra mile and support the work that I do We have a patreon for that patreon.com forward slash rich roll and thank you very much you guys But first, let's acknowledge the awesome organizations that make this show possible today's episode today's episode is intense it's very very intense it's a conversation with a guy called mark ching he is at animal hope and wellness on instagram and this guy is a straight up hero, like straight up hero. By day, his occupation is as a holistic nutritionist, both for people and animals. He lives here in Los Angeles. He's basically a successful small business owner. But in just the last couple of years, he has become one of the most courageous and committed and devoted and passionate animal rights activists that I've ever met. He's the founder of an organization called the Animal Hope and Wellness Foundation, which is

a nonprofit that he started in 2011 after he realized that he could use his abilities, his skills, his training to rehabilitate abused dogs in need and place them into homes. And that's work that he did primarily in and around Los Angeles, where he lives. But then something happened. In 2015, Mark heard about something called the Yulin Dog Meat Festival in China. And he knew that people in China and across certain parts of Asia ate dog as part of their regional cuisine, that this is something that's been going on for a long time, that there is something called the dog meat trade that, you know, not only exists, but is very, very real. But beyond that, he didn't know much else beyond some nasty rumors. So he decided to travel to the festival to learn more about it. he decided to travel to the festival to learn more about it. And what he didn't know was the vast extent to which dogs were being slaughtered. 30 million dogs a year across Asia are slaughtered

with an estimated 10 million per year in China alone, according to the Humane Society. And a lot of these dogs are not just slaughtered, but in many cases are tortured and tortured brutally. And this is something that he discovered when he visited Yulin. And what he discovered was devastating. Basically, an incomparable amount of abuse and humanity and torture, just far more disturbing and horrific than anything he could have previously imagined. Essentially, dogs that are being brutally tortured by the thousands, if not the millions. And I'm talking about dogs that are being burned and boiled alive before slaughtering them for meat out of this crazy misguided belief that tortured dog meat

tastes better and somehow provides enhanced health benefits. It's just insane. It's difficult for me to even think about it. And that experience changed Mark forever. It really transformed him from essentially this normal suburban family man and dad and, you know, like I said earlier, successful business owner into this guy who became obsessed. He began devoting essentially all of his free time and resources to tirelessly saving dogs all across China and all across different parts of Asia, including Vietnam, Cambodia, Laos, South Korea, Indonesia. And often he would go in or he goes in undercover masking as a dog meat buyer. And in so doing,

puts himself in very real serious danger, mortal danger, in fact. I mean, he's been shot, you know, in the process of this work. And so I think there's obviously something patently heroic about this. But I also think it's fair to say that this is an experience that has really damaged him, like significantly traumatized him in certain respects. And this is a subject that we discuss openly throughout the podcast. In any event, to date, Mark has made, I believe, seven trips to Asia and has saved hundreds and hundreds of dogs. More importantly, his work has been crucial in raising global awareness around the horrible mistreatment of dogs, which in turn has led to some pretty significant and substantial reform. He's enlisted the support of celebrities like Matt Damon, Joaquin Phoenix, Rooney Mara,

and Tony Canale, all who appear in his powerful PSAs, public service announcements. There's one in particular that I've embedded on the episode page on my website and have shared on social media. You guys should definitely check it out. It's difficult to watch, but really, really powerful. And beyond that, Mark and his work have been extensively profiled across a wide array of mainstream outlets like the New York Times, Forbes, Entrepreneur, The Hollywood Reporter, Mashable, Telegraph, The Independent, BuzzFeed, and even Breitbart of all places. And I think that's enough. I think I'll let

Mark take the story from here. And I'll leave you with this, with fair warning that this is a delicate and sensitive and at times disturbing subject matter. And this is a conversation that gets into all of that. It gets quite emotional at times. But I also think it's an important conversation to have. And I think it's one that I don't think we can or should shy away from. So I please encourage all of you to listen and listen with an open mind. So without further ado, I give you Mark Chang. Without further ado, I give you Mark Chang. All right, man, you ready to go? Yep, ready.

Right on, Mark. Well, thanks so much for schlepping out to the house. I appreciate it. It was great to meet you at the Circle V event a couple weeks ago. And I'm excited to sit down and unpack your life story, your life mission, and the amazing things that you're doing. It's pretty remarkable and inspirational. And I know that you don't, you're not comfortable wearing the moniker of hero because I know that word gets thrown around a lot. It makes you a little, I've noticed some of the words that you've said on Instagram and Facebook.

But I think it is heroic what you do and it deserves to be, it deserves to be celebrated. And I'm just happy and proud to be able to shine a light on your work. So thanks for coming by. Thanks for having me. Thanks. Yeah. So let's, where to begin here. Why don't we start with how you got into this whole world of dog rescue to begin with? Our foundation is called Animal Hope and Wellness. I started about, I think about five and a half, six years ago. And it started like, I think how most people start, just with one dog. I never thought it was going to turn into a foundation or an organization. But I run this company called Petstrand strand which is like 24-hour holistic care

for animals and it's free and i don't know i'm kind of good at what i do and so i use like what i've learned in life to treat animals holistically and then i through my rescue i apply it to the dogs that we take and so we specialize in cruelty and abuse. Did you, was there, like what was the first dog? I would imagine this began long before you started taking trips out to Asia, right? Yeah, of course. So the first dog is a dog we kept named Ginko. And so even the second dog that we ever got, we kept her too. They were both cruelty cases, both beaten.

I swear he had brain damage damage but now he seems normal so yeah and then our third dog we kept as well but we ended up rehoming like two years later and he was a bait dog and for some reason he just started attacking all the other rescues one day and i couldn't i don't know i tried to i just couldn't help him the way i was supposed to and so i put him in a great home and he he's very happy so were these dogs that were coming from abusive homes or how did you discover these dogs like how did it how did you find how did they end up crossing your path well you know in the dog world in la youA., you get to know people, you know, animal control, people who work at the shelter. So that's kind of how it started.

It also started like we had this one big case named Staples. Somebody stapled this dog's mouth closed, threw acid on him, beat him up, and we got the case. It was such a high-profile case that people found out that we did cruelty work. And so after that, everything picked up, and we started getting all these calls. And so we get calls weekly, even daily sometimes. And so when you would take on one of these dogs, do you then try to – so you're sort of nursing them back to health, but then are you also housing them or are you trying to find the homes for them? Like, how does that work? Well, so most cruelty cases have major medical issues. And so we hospitalize them

until they are stable enough to go into foster care or, you know, if they're not that bad, they go into our shelter. So we have a physical shelter. You have a shelter here in Los Angeles, right? So how many dogs do you have in there now uh i think right now we have 16 but sometimes we have 30 or 40 right yeah and what is before we you know get into you know all the the adventurous stuff that you do like i'm interested in sort of parsing fact from fiction when it comes to the world of you know purchasing pets and adopting pets? You know, what's really going on with these pet farms? Are you doing good when you adopt a dog from, you know, these other places? What's reality? And what is hype? And what, you know, what is

the current state of how that whole operation like that business in that world functions? state of how that whole operation like that business in that world functions you know when it comes to like breeding and adopting uh i i'm i'm very pro adoption like pro pro however i try to be non-judgmental and let people decipher themselves there's so many dogs dying every day and cats in every city in the u.s and it of, you know, people don't take advantage of the shelter system, that there's every single breed you're looking for is there, you know, and they're just waiting to have a chance, waiting to find what we're all looking for, which is love. And so while I'm pro-rescue and pro-adoption, I understand why people go to breeders as well. I think it's miseducation. And so one thing that we're doing, which is pretty great about our foundation,

is we're starting a shelter program with elementary school to take the fifth grade class to shelters. One is going to be our shelter in the East Valley Shelter, which is one of the largest shelters in L.A., to teach them about adoption, about dogs and cats, what to do when you see a stray, things like that. Right. I think if we start young, then children, as they grow older into adults, they'll be more pro-adoption as well, you see. And so everybody's looking for this perfect dog, but the dog becomes perfect in your home as you teach it.

And it doesn't matter what issues they have. Part of being in a family is to overcome those things. And so I think adoption is important and more people should participate. And is there a difference? Or if so, I'm presuming there is. But the difference between going to a breeder, you know, like where there's, I i don't know a farm or lots of space where you you know buy a dog versus these puppy mill pet store sort of dogs like what's behind the scenes and how that functions i think they're the same yeah yeah uh are there reputable breeders of

course you you know do they have good practices small small litters? Of course. Most breeders, and like I said, don't quote me on this because I don't know, but I assume most breeders are in it for the money. And so when you're in it for the money, you're trying to mass produce. When you're in it for the money, your agenda changes, and so product changes you know an animal isn't really a product it's it's no different than us and so i don't know like there's so many lives that are lost daily because of overbreeding and even though if you're a responsible breeder i still believe that people should push adoption in shelters and in rest so you have this

you have this holistic practice where you're treating animals treating pets uh it's also a pet store right uh well we have a pet store built around like the food part of it correct so it's a pet store with supplements nutraceuticals, food, built around diseases. And so, for instance, cancer, itching, dermatitis, allergies, our whole store is built around that concept. So things that we carry, they deal with specific issues. So like a fungal enzyme for itching, if you have hot spots or ear infections, or probiotics for diarrhea things like

that right like almost like an ayurvedic practice for treating animals that's i've never heard of anybody else doing that yeah and so we're we're pretty popular uh-huh yeah yeah it's really cool so you have this cool life where you have i think you have a couple businesses right like you're sort of an entrepreneur you're doing lots of things and you're getting into, uh, you know, rescuing and saving these animals and things sort of took a turn for you, right? Like when, you know, enter, enter the world of, uh, you know, the Asian sort of, uh, world of dog slaughter and torture for food, right? So how does that come into your awareness? I never, I mean, I'm Asian. So I knew that, you know, Asian people eat dogs. Uh, I was very aware of that growing up. Uh, I never knew

that there was this cruelty aspect involved and it's not involved in every country or across the board, but it's involved enough that it's grotesque and it should be stopped. but it's involved enough that it's grotesque and it should be stopped. Last year, I think it was May or April, I started seeing these pictures on the Internet about the Yulin Dogmeat Festival. I'd never heard of that before. When I saw it, I actually thought it was like some media propaganda. And so I'd see these images and I saw it over and over and then i started to

research it and then i found out that they had a festival where they do these things where they hang these dogs and yeah explain exactly what the yulin dog festival is so the yulin dog festival is every june and it's called the summer solstice where the season is changing and in yulin which is a big dog meat eating uh i guess city people come from all over to participate in an event all over china correct where they participate in an event to eat dogs it's only started like a few years ago i think it was 2010 or 2009 something like that so it's a new event but you know the pictures and the things you see on the internet they're real and so that and so there's this it's not just that they're celebrating dog as cuisine there's a whole other aspect of this which is the miss not just the mishandling, but

the beating and the torturing of these animals, which is interwoven into this culture of what it means to enjoy dog as a food, right? Like explain how that plays into the whole equation. You know, every country is different. And so even though I've been doing this for a while, I'm still no expert on it. There's some people in Asia or other parts that say that's not a part of it and some people that say it is. And so where the truth lies, I guess it's just like religion, you know, where the truth lies for people's beliefs. But from some people I've talked to and interviewed and from multiple major sources worldwide cruelty is a consistent theme in the dog meat trade where they think you know on the internet there's this post published by the president of north korea that

said you know he's promoting the eating of dogs but saying that you have to beat them, burn them alive, and torture them in order to get the full benefit from the meat. And so some regions believe this. And the idea behind that is that it improves the purported health benefits of eating this food because of the release of all of these hormones that happen when you're in fear some of them yes correct yeah and so what are what are those purported health benefits that well support there's a whole yeah not that they do support that but like what do they say well this is about some countries like korea i know they say when it's really hot it cools your body uh in china when it's really cold it might warm you up or or maybe a vice you know flipped some fertility and sexual stamina uh some you know i went to indonesia

to this place in sulu where they said they take the bile out and they use the bile of the dog after beating the dog to cure diseases like cancer, when you're having diarrhea. And so it varies from region to region what they believe. Why it's hard for me to give, I guess, full accuracy on what beliefs are is because I don't even speak the language. And so there's always that barrier. But also, too, when I'm there, I'm undercover, so I don't really ask questions. I come in as a buyer, and they show me their operation, the kill floor, people are working, things like that.

you know their operation the kill floor people are working things like that so you first read about the euland dog festival what like 2014 something like that 2015 actually 2015 and then when do you decide like i have to go there and check this out for myself well i tried to go for for last year but you know I married and so my wife thought it was crazy. And then, I don't know, after the festival finished, I kept seeing pictures. I was reading about it and I still told myself, it's impossible that people, that they can do those things. that they can do those things. And so in September, in August actually, a few months after the festival, my wife said,

look, if you have to go, just go. I left the next month. And so... And did you have like an agenda at that time or were you just going to kind of suss it out and get an idea of what exactly is going on? Well, when I left, I mean like I left, I had one backpack and I had a ticket. And I didn't realize that the Internet's filtered in China.

I just, you know, and it was just out of sheer ignorance. I didn't even do research. I just left. I saw some things on the Internet of places where I was going to go. I didn't even have a hotel. And so I arrived there, and I don't know, I don't want to say I just got lucky because now when I look back on how hard everything's been it's kind of terrible but for my first trip I was pretty fortunate to meet people that were able to guide me to the places I needed to go to start what we

have started but you went alone that time correct that. That first time, right? So kind of explain to me what you discovered. Well, so I landed at, I flew into Beijing International. And when I landed there, I didn't have a hotel, but I called American Express because I have a credit card from them. And they actually got me a hotel, you know, the concierge. And so I caught a taxi there. And like, I think it was about 10 o'clock or something and i wanted a drink because i didn't know what else to do and so i went to a bar that was real close to my hotel and in beijing there's a lot of westerners and so i met one and asked him hey where's all the dog meat restaurants and the slaughterhouses? And he said, they don't eat dogs here anymore.

And I was like, they don't eat dogs here anymore? Are you sure? He was like, they don't. And I was like, wow, I guess. And so I called my wife and I said, I guess I'm going to see the Great Wall of China because, like, you know, all that stuff was a scam. And then I had gone to the next place over. Just so it happened, I'm walking around around i went into another bar restaurant thing and i met somebody that i'm still in contact with it's

part of my team now and i had you know he'd ask oh what are you doing out here and i said well i came to see dog meat you know and what they're doing to these dogs but they say it doesn't exist and he said no it exists you just they push it outside of the city because it was giving china a bad name and so he introduced me to a guy that knew everything that still helps me today uh does a bunch of research for me just found all these new slaughterhouses for us everything and so that's kind of how it started right and so where was the first place that you went to visit slaughterhouse i mean how far is yulin from beijing oh 10 hours 10 hours okay so so you decide you're gonna go pop in on one of these slaughterhouses like unannounced i mean how did

it what you know what were the logistics of how you approached it well my first trip the first few places i went it wasn't even a slaughterhouse it was places where they breed dogs kind of like an america puppy mills and stuff and uh that's where they guided me to it's called the liwan province it's like the black market for dogs they pump them up with steroids and they do all these things to them however they train them uh using all these methods that is considered very abusive and cruel. And so when I went there, it was so overt, the miscare and mistreatment of the dogs that I was blown away. I saw them, you know, if a dog was sick, they'd just kill them.

There's dogs on the road dead. And that was my first experience there. I rescued a few dogs there, took them to the vet, boarded them until they were healthy and brought those dogs to America. After my first day, well, after my second day, because my first day I was meeting those people, I went to Guangzhou because they found the slaughterhouse. When I went, they got me a translator who,

when he found out where I was going, he just abandoned me. And I still got to the place I needed to go because I caught a taxi with this woman who spoke English. I paid her to stay in a taxi with me, and they took me to the slaughterhouse. And they even documented it. It's on Facebook and all that stuff. And I sat out of the slaughterhouse, and I told myself, well, how am I going to get inside? I think I was there for about an hour something before i got inside i saw a truck come and they have those dog trucks and they're unloading all the

dogs in these cages and so that's kind of like when i pushed in and when i went in there were dogs on the ground they were butchering them and it was all bad you know i couldn't speak the language and so they didn't understand what i was doing and things got hostile very fast and i ended up leaving for clarity it's legal to slaughter dogs for food in china right so it's not like they were breaking any laws but are there laws around abusive treatment or no there's nothing else so's not. There's no cruelty laws at all. So the aggression that you were on the receiving end, what is that coming from? If they're doing something in their mind that's perfectly legal,

and I would imagine they've rationalized this ethical, why feel threatened? So I go all over to all different countries. In China and in Korea, they are very threatened. And why is because the movement and the pressure against dog traders and dog meat is so big that they're scared. And pressure is building every day. And these people, this is their livelihood. And so they are scared. They're angry.

They're violent, some of them. In some other countries like Cambodia and things like that, they're angry they're violent some of them in some other countries like cambodia and things like that they're not so scared they're not so secretive a lot of things are done in public settings you know there's a video that i recorded in indonesia that there's always question like how to get that video. It's actually in a public setting. It's at a marketplace where they burn dogs alive. And so if anybody went there, you would see it because it's a daily activity. And so, but in China, especially because of all the negative attention that the dog meat trade has brought, dog traders are very, they're very against the media media cameras they'll rip them out of your hands they'll attack you to take up things like that right and so so you being asian actually plays

in to your favor quite a bit right like because they can't immediately identify you initially as as as a westerner they can't know just going to do that right and and i'm just curious like in in these cultures do they also have dogs as pets or do they they do they do and so so there's that weird that weird disconnect well i'll say this a lot of people think like the movement against the dog meat trade is anti-asian it's not or at least the one i represent is not. You know, I'm Asian. What it is is this, is that in China, there's billions of people. It's only a small percentage doing these things. There's a huge growing young generation that loves dogs and cats.

And if you go out there, especially if you're in the animal activism industry, you see it. You know, a lot of the tension, and this is why some Asian groups don't like our group, because we currently, I don't know why, but maybe social media or whatever, we're in the spotlight. And these groups say, hey, we've been doing this for years, and this guy comes comes gets all the attention and so it's always important to point out that without the locals without the groups on the ground in those countries change is not possible you know all we did was bring attention uh raise awareness and do something a little different from other groups to try to help the people on the ground that need to make the change. So you discover this slaughterhouse, and I would imagine that was rather shocking. You know, what's the next move?

I mean, I would imagine that that allowed you to come into an awareness that whatever you were reading on the Internet, you know, whatever you were imagining was as bad, if not worse, than you previously thought. You know, if not worse, than you previously thought? You know, to be honest, I took this first trip. I rescued all these dogs, rescued a sheep, freed a chicken. And how are you getting these animals back to the United States? Well, it's actually very expensive, but we board them at vets, and then after the quarantine period, we would fly them home.

Right, so you have to buy an airplane ticket for each one of them, right? Correct, yes. Yeah, wow. But we use services, and it makes it easier. But after my first trip, I came back to America. And I didn't even know that people were watching, but I was posting as I was doing this on the Internet. And just to be honest, I came back, and I felt like a hero. I'm not going to lie.

That was my first trip. And so that pushed me to go on my second trip. My second trip, I went to China and South Korea. The second trip is when I think my life changed. My first trip wasn't about slaughterhouses. It was about finding out, hey, does this exist? Is this factual? And it was.

My second trip, I researched and I planned it I actually planned which my first trip I didn't and so I found all these places that I went that I was going to go to actual slaughterhouses and so I think I wasn't prepared to watch or to see what, I don't know, what human beings are capable of. And so that changed everything. And it's from there, you know, it's from there that it's a downhill decline. And so since then,

I've taken more trips, you know, and so it's hard to talk about. No, it's fine. Take your time. But once things change from rescuing dogs to trying to stop a movement or trying to stop what they're doing, it changes. You know, you see things that I never thought people could do.

In other words, when the advocacy kind of matures out of what it feels like to just save an animal into the politics of actually trying to catalyze political and legislative change, when you run into these forces that you didn't anticipate well not exactly what I mean is this is that you know in America when people rescue dogs it's different these things don't exist in Asia where they're hanging a dog and beating him up and I said, if I could document and expose what happens on the inside of a slaughterhouse in regards to their beliefs about, hey, if we abuse this dog, the meat will taste better. I thought that you could stop it. In America, it raises so much awareness. Factory farming, people go in, they video the pigs. And so what we do is no different. And so I thought that, I just thought that it would be different because nobody was doing it. And it would be a way to bring attention and to get the government to focus on the issues that,

hey, we should ban this and make it illegal because it's wrong. I wasn't prepared to, I guess my mind or who I was wasn't prepared to see what they do. And that's a breaking thing. That's what's hard. You know, I know like people do it all the time. Go undercover into horse slaughterhouses or cow slaughterhouses. And sometimes I wonder how they're sane. How do these people, like, live their lives normally?

It's just, but that's what I mean, like, the decline and when they die. It's just emotionally. And so. You have to find a way to take care of yourself and protect yourself while you're doing what you do if you want to be able to continue to do it right and and the sense that i'm getting is that you have a very permeable uh boundary around you and you let that stuff really seep in and affect you and i'm sorry for that. But my hope is that you can find a way to exercise a little self-care because you won't be able to continue to be of service.

It will just eat you up from the inside out. It's easier said than done. Yeah, I can imagine. And I'm speaking from a place of sympathy, not empathy, because I haven't placed myself in those situations so you know i i can't imagine what that must be like but are you comfortable kind of explaining a little bit about sure what that what, I remember, you know, I just brought my ticket to go to Asia. I left on like the 2nd or something.

And I remember I was talking to my wife and I told my father, hey, I'm going to go rescue dogs in Asia. And then I went out to dinner with my wife. And we were talking about life. And at that time, I remember telling her, I couldn't be happier. I have two kids. They're healthy. My businesses are successful. And we do a lot of charity work.

Foundation was successful. And I just, at that time in my life, life is never 100% perfect, but I could have never imagined. It just, I was happy. You know, a lot of people search their whole lives to find happiness, and I had it. Now, you know, sometimes I wonder if happiness is possible again it's funny like the more trips I took the worse

you know the darker it became and then I used to use my children I used to do great children I used to use them as the catalyst to be I I guess, non-suicidal or whatever you call it. And then there became a tipping point when that wasn't even enough. And so it's weird being dead inside, but you're still alive. being dead inside but you're still alive and then now i think like if i can just get them to pass a law to stop it i'll have everything back but i know that's not true but you've got to take comfort and solace in the fact that you really are moving the needle. You know, you, you have created global awareness

of something that I think most people are completely ignorant of and have no, no awareness whatsoever of. And, and your work has been meaningful and, and, and there are, you know, changes afoot. I think change, change takes time and it's going to require patience and diligence but um you know i commend you for putting yourself out there but you should know that it's not you know it is making a difference i i understand that you you know i tell people i don't see what they see and i think like people who live in the states that maybe I do, you don't see the sun, even though the sun's there. You don't see the change-making or the people that follow the movement

that make that connection and it changes their lives. And you don't see that when you look at, or when you look out of your own darkness. It's hard. You know, but I'm very aware of it because, you know, we have brains and so we can think about those things. I think that I was born to do this. I think some people are. I think some people, that they're made stronger or something, so they can bear it and do this great work

and still live a life and be successfully happy. I believe that people are born like that. I think I'm the opposite. I think that seeing the things that it destroys you so much that you can't stop because you remember the dying or you hear their screams and it compels you and pushes you to save them you're not at risk to your own family to your own life to your children and so i think i'm on this opposite spectrum that these people maybe are not meant to do this kind of work i don't know it's heartbreaking you know it's heartbreaking

to hear you say that you talked to gene bauer about this and several other people and you know it's similar i mean gene you know goes him and his team and his people go into these horrific factory farming situations knowing that, you know, it's like he's got what, three or four farms? Like he can't, you know, he can take a few animals and that's it. So how do you move forward and feel okay about the fact that you're, that's like a drop in a huge bucket, right? So the way that he kind of wraps his head around it and is able to move forward is to say, I use these farms to educate people and I have to use this as a platform to broaden awareness. And he's got to be able to find a way to sleep at night and continue to go on so that he can continue to do the work. I guess, you know,

they just celebrated 30 years. So he's been doing it like for a super long time. My fear is that you're going to, you're going to flame out because the toll that it's taking on you is so severe. Yeah. But you know, you can't serve unless you take care of yourself you gotta keep you gotta you gotta make sure your cup is is full a little bit right especially for your kids yeah you know how old are your kids uh five and a half and three and a half it's awesome you know like and what are they old enough to understand what you do like how do they process that? They understand fully. You know, I don't know.

We're kind of an animal rights family. And so, like, every night, you know, I work a lot, but the nights that I'm home to be with my children, we talk about our dogs. They're all cruelty cases. Two from the dog meat trade, three local abuse. We always talk about it, and we talk about other animals and things. And so when i go to asia they're very aware what i'm doing uh you know it's weird like the perspective of a child you know my son

i don't know it's like me and so when he talks to me about things you know i think i suffer from depression or something now, but I took this big Yulin trip, which I call trip seven, which is probably when we got international kind of like notoriety. And when I came back, I fell into like this huge, deep, dark depression. And it was so bad that I thought about shutting down the foundation. And I left. I just left. I left California. I went back home and I took my family. I saw my dad. And it was just weird because I thought my dad was going to have me quit. You know, his son's going out there getting beat up, you know, just losing his mind.

When I went home, me and my dad and my son went to a beach, and we were just hanging out there. And my dad said, he said, you know, in life I haven't told you much of what to do. But he said, the one thing you can't do is you can't quit. You can't quit because they're dying out there. It's so strange that my son, who's only five years old, had told me. He was like, when you leave, I know what you're doing. I know that you might die, you might not come back home. But when you leave, I'm strong enough to take care of Mommy.

And you're strong enough to be there for the dogs. And it was so moving the way a five-year-old child talks to his father about something so dark and something so destroying for our family. And he said, you wouldn't quit on me so I went on a trip eight trip nine and I guess I'm gonna do it until things change so nine trips trips and not just China Cambodia Laos Thailand where else have you been Indonesia Philippines mm-hmm been to Korea Mongolia everywhere that they have the dog meat trade. And what kind of personal harm are you placing yourself in by showing up at these places?

And perhaps you can walk us through kind of this elaborate ruse that you've constructed that gives you entree into this world. I think, i don't know it's less dangerous than people think but it's still not safe well you've been assaulted you've been beat up you've been shot you got shot right or shot at uh you've been you've been jailed no just you know so you could downplay it but know, it doesn't sound so safe to me. Well, if you look at it like I'm a foreigner who can't speak the language and some of the mercy in not every country is like this, but some districts are very, very, very poor. And so, you know, there's so much corruption and so much things like that.

But if you look at the amount of countries I've been to, how many times, how many trips, how many slaughterhouses, and I've only been hurt six times, to me, that's not that bad. Most places, when you go undercover as a dog meat buyer, it changes things. The times that I've been hurt are times that I haven't been able to control myself. And so I've acted out, you know, anger is universal. You don't have to speak Chinese for someone to know that you're angry. And when those things happen, aggression builds and tension builds and consequences happen. And so those are the circumstances when i or harm came to me you see right but the idea is that you have this team and you sort of uh create in advance an entree into this world by posing or presenting yourself as a dog meat buyer in the united states like a

rich wealthy American businessman. And you have somebody on the ground to make this introduction. And so you're presented to these slaughterhouses and to these, you know, sort of the people that are doing this, that are in this world as somebody who is aligned sort of, you know, with what they want and that you want to purchase these dogs and bring them back to America, uh, for purposes of slaughtering them for food. Right. So that's the, that's the story that you're to purchase these dogs and bring them back to America for purposes of slaughtering them for food, right? So that's the story that you're telling. Correct, yes.

And in doing that, you're trying to broker this deal where they give you at least a few dogs that you can bring back because you want to tell them you want to taste them and make sure that everything is okay, right? So that's how you are at least able to rescue a few right off the top. Correct, yes. But now, I mean, this story has been published all over the internet and everything from, you know, BuzzFeed to Breitbart. Like, this story is out there. So does that make it more difficult now to do that? Or are people hip to, like, this thing that you're trying to pull on them?

Or are they not reading it over there because the internet's filtered? Or how does it work? Well, these countries are so large, especially in rural areas that they don't have internet, that they would have never heard of me. However, people should know that my time in undercover documentation is pretty much at its end. my time in undercover documentation is pretty much at its end. Now things have changed to where I did my job and we have to use this to push the government to make law changes. However... Right, how many more videos do you need?

I mean, your videos are horrifying and you've got like 300 of them, right? So it's like it tells the story. You know, and so, but but some places especially my last trip i took this trip so congress invited us to speak and so well i took this trip just for congress you know government is so weird like let's say like i don't know we we got a call from the chinese government not too long not too long ago. They said, look, if you can provide documentation in the Guangxi area where the Yulin Dogmeat Festival is, we'll call a meeting with the mayor of Yulin and the chief of police.

And so, like, but they said, you have to have them talking in our dialect. You might have to throw a paper on the ground so they can see, like, happening now and so the requirements are it's so crazy it's just you know they're never satisfied with like but anyways you know this last trip i took i took it because we had this chance to bring attention to our government where they were going to take a stance to pressure china to pass a cruelty law or to ban the dog meat trade. And so I took this trip. Many of the places in Korea we tried to get into, I couldn't because they already knew who we were. And so I had to use, I got some new documentation, but I had to use old documentation as well.

And so like, I would assume my foray to do those things is quite at its end. Now, you know this guy from Last Chance for Animals, Christy Rose, I think they're the king of undercover stuff. They're pretty great. He had told me that you have to learn how to create teams in these countries. He told me this on my fourth trip. And so we have. Right now, we have our undercover teams in Yulin.

I have some in China getting documentation for the Chinese government. You know, it's good that way, so I don't have to do it anymore. I don't have to endanger my life. But mostly, you know, the possibility of me doing much anymore is very low right so so you've made the u.s government aware of this how how did that go down like did you who did you contact or who have you spoken to well they actually reached out to us and they created this panel with other groups to speak against the dog meat trade and to bring facts. And at this place, I assembled this clip of what you call, I guess, a torture video. And I showed it to them.

And it was pretty intense. However, in the United States, the task is now to get all these congressmen to support the bill and co-sponsor it. Once it's co-sponsored by so many signatures it goes to the floor and then you can vote on it to become like i guess a law or whatever bill and so other groups as well uh we are starting to undertake the task where we're going to be going to the congressmen who haven't signed on and i'm going to speak to them tell them why this is important how this bill can help your campaign but also I want them to see what they're doing if you don't see it first of all you never believe it exists but second of all you don't

witness or you don't share that moment with that dog. Once you see it and bear witness, you're pulled into that darkness. And only someone who's not a human being wouldn't want to save them. And so right now we're taking the steps to kind of build that structure so we can go around and speak to these congressmen and lobby them to support the bill right speciesism is a weird thing you know in in certain parts of asia where it's perfectly acceptable to eat dog whereas here we we pigs and and we treat pigs similar you know similarly in that regard. But I think in terms of like rallying public support around a bill that would, you know, petition our federal government to take a stand vis-a-vis China on this would not be difficult to do from a popular vote perspective, because there's no human being that I know, you know, at least in, you know, Western culture, who, who would be in favor of this right i think it

gets tricky however when you start dealing when you start to consider the trade implications that we have with china and you know what that would mean in terms of ruffling feathers and it gets complicated right it does so that's the barrier i I would imagine. You know, our foundation is sponsoring a bill, the first bill of its kind, a federal bill to ban dog and cat meat eating in America. And so we've already announced it. The Congressman Hastings is supporting the bill. And in January, we're having this big briefing, this big release about it. In America, we don't really eat dogs and cats, even though it still happens. It's very, very, very small.

Where is it happening? Well, there's reports. I mean, in Hawaii, I know it happens. And there's been reports that there's some out here. It's very scant, backyard stuff. You know, all animals are the same. We just so happen to be submerged in the dog meat industry. I think I've been told we're going to have a lot of opposition

because, you know, the Cattle's Association or all these things are going to say, you know, if they make dog and cat meat eating illegal. The slippery slope argument. Correct. The rabbits come next, the ducks and all that stuff. And, you know, whether or not the bill passes passes the whole goal is to show these other countries that hey we're not perfect and if we're going to ask you to do something we better do it too and so that's the kind of stance we're taking and why we're trying to do that and just to put everything in

perspective uh you know the the dog meat industry in as is not a small thing. It's like 30 million dogs a year are slaughtered, right? Something like that. Is that accurate? You know, the numbers, I couldn't really tell you, you know, I'm not a scholar on the topic, but it's a lot, right? Yeah. Is there any kind of international governing body that can put a word in on this? I mean, I know Humane Society International looks at this, but in terms of something beyond the United States federal government, some kind of international organization that can influence this behavior. Well, there's a lot of groups fighting against this cause. I mean, not fighting against this cause i mean not fighting against the cause but fighting to ban the dog meat trade for many reasons you know while that's one

of our goals too i think a larger win is if there are cruelty laws passed or animal abuse laws or animal protection laws i think that's protects more animals and it's more important about governing bodies i don't know there's so many problems in the world that i think the governing bodies attend to other things you know traffic human trafficking and like i don't know you know and so right and but but i i did read that you know china's well aware now that there's a backlash against the yulin you know dog event and there are actually asian protesters that are showing up at this right so this is happening there is a there is a pendulum swinging in the other direction it's it's really the people in

these country in these countries that are going to bring about the change and so it is growing and the movement and the support for the rights of these animals is raising awareness i mean i mean it's growing and and awareness is being raised and so i don't know when it will stop or when a law will be passed but i know it will happen and how does all, you know, beyond what you've already kind of talked about, you know, how does this work impact your, the way in which you interact with other human beings, like in terms of your sort of level of compassion and acceptance and non-judgment and all these other ideals that are kind of part and parcel of you know the the vegan movement yeah for lack of a better phrase well i think i'm very different as

a person but maybe not i'm this huge believer in compassion and no matter how dark i may feel inside or how dead i feel that i am, I'm a huge believer in humanity. I wake up and I look at my children and I see something that's so pure. And at that age, they don't know what violence is. They don't know how to hate yet. And I think that is what inspires me to do the things that I do. You know, in veganism, I'm pretty ashamed for this, but I took a long time to make the connection. You know, I've been rescuing dogs for six years maybe, and my foundation's been around. And it took me a long time to make the connection between dogs and other animals.

And I don't know if the word's a shame, but I'm not proud that it took me so long. When I first became vegan, and I don't even know if you can call it vegan then, but when I first stopped eating meat, it was because of this cruelty case we had named Gumby. They beat him up, removed his eyeballs, all this stuff. It was a local case. And driving up to drop him off to his parents last year, Father's Day, his new family, I don't know, it just hit me that, wow, this dog is no different from my own child that imagined, because he lived with us, and he imagined it's something that to my children and and then i thought about like pigs and stuff and i think veganism some people do it cold turkey and some people they evolve to it you know for me the progression was slow now i think it took me a long time to maturate to that place because some vegans are so in your face loud about it.

And they're so like, I don't know, they persecute you for not. And I thought, I don't know, I felt it was ugly to me. And that was one barrier around it, you know, or one road blocking my way to find that. or one road blocking my way to find that. But I never knew why vegans were so proud until now. Now I understand it. Just by making a simple choice as to not to consume an animal, countless of lives are saved.

Even if you don't get up and do anything and that's what you choose, you're making a choice to protect. You're making a choice to love. And it's amazing. And so I, you know, I'm a young vegan. I'm probably a stupid vegan, meaning that I don't know all the history or I don't know, like, all these great things. And I don't even know if I'm eating correctly. Yeah.

But I know this is that I want to do it for one reason for the animals. You know, I don't do it because it's healthy or it's not healthy. I don't do it because I do it for that only. You know, I just found out about all these foods out there. I found out that they have eggs now, vegan eggs. Right. Yeah. Yeah. It's crazy. Well, the whole movement of creating these meat analogs has really kind of hit its stride lately.

So there's all kinds of crazy options available. Yeah. You're a sensitive dude. Oh, man. You know? I'm pretty emotional. Yeah. So I'm interested in why that is, right?

You had a pretty interesting upbringing, grew up in Hawaii, in what sounds like not the best circumstances. Can you talk a little bit about that? Well, I'm adopted. When I grew up and I found out I was adopted, I didn't understand it. My parents are Asian. And so in my whole life, they never told me that they loved me. And it's like, I don't know. I guess I guess that's who they are and what they do. However, I grew up knowing that I was adopted. I kind of did understand it.

And so it was just hard for me. And I think I made a lot of bad choices. Did you know that you were adopted early on? Early on, correct. Yeah. And like, I don't know, you know, now that I have children, I tell them every day that I love them. Maybe the word will get redundant, but it's important to say because in our society maybe not my parents uh generation but in our generation verbalism is very important you know not only

the acts that we do but what we say and so so you had one one parent korean and one parent japanese well i'm korean japanese but i'm adopted into a Chinese-Japanese family. Oh, okay. Yeah. And grew up, went to high school in Oahu? I went to elementary and high school in Oahu, correct. And then I came out here for college. Yeah.

And so, yeah. And you came out, what was the goal when you came out here? Or when you graduated? Like, what was it that you wanted to be doing? Well, my father and my whole family they're stockbrokers and so they're real like conservative uh capitalists and so my father being the oldest son had raised me to be well well i don't know raised me to be that way but he wanted me to take over his business uh he's very successful and like like, I don't know. It's just, I'm not really about money.

And so I tried it and I hated it. And I went back to doing what I think I was born to do, which is to heal people and animals. And I love it. When did you get into the whole holistic healing well i've been doing it for a long time even when i was younger you know my grandmother like practices herbs and so i would i would watch and learn and i just kind of adopted that over time right and and why why with animals as opposed to you know becoming a chinese medicine doctor or something like that? Well, I actually have a human practice too.

Oh, you do? A lot of people don't know yet. Oh, I didn't know that. So I work with people. Why I'm real popular for animals is I think because I treat disease the same way how it would affect a human being. So cancer doesn't change based on if you're a dog, cat, an elephant, a hippo, a bird, or a person. Vets have taken disease and changed it for animals. And so instead of if you have cancer eating a low-starch diet, now you're on food that has corn in it, which just doesn't make sense.

If you have fungal dermatitis as a person, we minimize sugar and we put you more on green vegetables and things like that. And for animals, it's different now. Now you're on the worst food ever. And you're using things, a steroid, just to reduce inflammation. Where in a human, you would try to find the cause. And so it's just different. So I treat the disease the same. And I don't know, it's made me successful and good at what I do.

What is your perspective on dog food and the dog food industry? People ask me all the time, you know, you're petting our dogs right now. I have our dogs inside the room. Usually I put them out, but I'm like, dude, your hero's here. You guys got to be inside for this podcast. A lot of people ask me all the time, like, what, you're heroes here. You guys got to be inside for this podcast. Uh, a lot of people ask me all the time, like, what do you feed your dogs? And, and we've been experimenting with V dog and it's been working really well, but this is like new. And, and I just want to be sure that

I'm doing the right thing by my animals. And I want to make the compassionate choice, but I don't want to foist a diet on a canine that is going to make them unhealthy, right? So I'm sure people must ask you this all the time. Of course, all the time. This is what I tell people. I decide for myself. I have a brain and I can think and I make my own choices. So I choose what I wear.

I'm very against leather and all those things. And I choose what I eat, know I'm very against leather and all those things and like I choose what I eat stuff like that for my dogs and for my patients I do what I feel is best I practice to the best of my ability to fulfill a need and to treat and to hopefully cure things that I'm supposed to cure and when someone comes to me that's I, I think, my job and my duty. Even though my duty and my job is to serve the animals as well. I believe dogs can be vegan. Will your dog become vegan and be successful?

Every case is different. I help people go vegan. And some dogs cannot make it. And is it that formula? Is there another possibility? I'm sure. But my job is to do the best I can for the families that I serve.

And I don't know what or how people would think about that, you know, animal rights people. But I try to look at myself only and I never look at my neighbor and say wow you you you eat pigs and you should die where you know it's okay to feel like that but that's not how i feel you know my own family my wife is not vegan you know and we actually fight about it quite often but we don't fight about her eating meat it's more my children you know i'm trying to raise my children to not eat meat and so that's where our debate is about uh and and you know in

the end i i say i do what's right for myself and i'll do the best i can for those around me but dogs they can't be vegan i'm actually coming out with a vegan dog food line a kibble because a lot of the ingredients in the current kibbles that are vegan they're all grains and things based correct and so i've been formulating for a few months already probably about six months uh grain free versions and it takes time because you know palatability and just all that stuff and so but it should be out pretty soon that's pretty cool yeah and it's just because like a lot of people won't go vegan for their animals even though they want to because when they feed such a high starch grain type of food their dog will get hot spots or itching and things like that.

And so we're going to try to make something that doesn't do that. Low-starch, legume-based or something like that. That's great. Yeah, I mean, I would love to be able to try something like that. Yeah, sure. You know? Yeah, I'll send you a bunch when it's done. Yeah, cool.

Yeah. know yeah i'll send you a bunch of when it's done yeah cool yeah so has this experience you know visiting all of these horrific dog slaughterhouses overseas does that paint or color or change how you perceive uh the food system in america the factory food you know industrial complex that we have here i mean i would imagine it's raise your awareness about that this is what i have to say crimes are being done here too and i applaud the groups that go in that do the documentation to expose it because that's what's needed to change it you know in my movement and the following that we have it's grown and so our following is larger than it was you know a few days ago

last year i think you have i checked today i think you have 122 000 followers on instagram yeah something like that a lot of them are not vegan and so it gives us opportunity which is great to open the door to and helping them to make that connection and so I don't always write about it but I do write about it you know today I went to Crossroads you've heard of that place of course and I ate the impossible burger but only that, I went to Crossroads last night, too. I have these buddies that I go out with. They took me to this kind of concert thing where this guy was singing, but he used his mic to speak about animal rights. Chef Tal is making a crossroads where he's making food so people who are not vegan can taste vegan food and see what your choices are and how great it is. I rarely post about these things on my site, but I'm going to.

Because you can get the same thing and not have to kill animals. And it's so amazing. That's how you win. That's how you win, you know, and just, and just so you know, I would imagine most people that listen to this podcast are not vegan, right? Like I try to cast a really wide net and, and introduce people to a wide variety of ideas, but it's not like this is a preaching to the, of course there's a lot of vegans that listen to this, but there's a lot that aren't. Uh, and also for people that don't know crossroads, uh, not only is it an amazing restaurant in Los Angeles, it was voted like,

I don't know, like the best or like one of the absolute top restaurants, not vegan restaurants, just restaurants in general, because tell Ronan, the chef there and the creator is such a magician with food and nowhere. Does it say anywhere that it's a vegan restaurant? It's just

amazing food and the impossible burger is this new concoction uh this this it's it's really kind of like a technology company where they're creating essentially like petri dish meat right they're like growing they're harvesting they're harvesting meat uh without the animal which is super interesting i haven't tried it yet but uh uli the founder i'm i'm gonna get him on the podcast he was at circle v for the first time so i'm interested to hear yeah yeah so i'm interested to hear more about that but i think you know ultimately you know to kind of recap what you're saying uh you have to make the healthy ethical choice, the, uh, not only the most convenient choice, but also the preferred choice. Not only does the food have to be good,

it has to actually be better. And I think, you know, we're, we're moving in that direction in some pretty new and exciting ways. Uh, because not everybody is going to just, is going to do it out of the kindness of their heart or because they feel compelled or moved. You know, I want to say this. I'll probably get attacked for this. You know, while being vegan to me is one of the best things you can do, I think it's okay, too, that people are not,

but they're trying to do better in their lives and trying to be more conscious of their footprint on their environment. I think every day gives us an opportunity to learn about animals or the trees outside or things like that, you know? But I also think too, like, I don't know, sometimes I read the comments on my wall that people make and some people like they'll get attacked for rescuing dogs but they're not vegan you know and I just want to make a point that you know the world if everybody just did something it would be such a great place you know and veganism is doing something too but getting out and helping your neighbor or getting out and volunteering at a homeless shelter or adopting an animal, things like that, or speaking to your friend about veganism or having these options and introducing people to the Impossible Burger or, I don't know, I think that's the only way my children are going to live in a world

that's just, that's more peaceful. What's sort of shocking and disappointing about what you just said is that you feel like you're going to be attacked for saying what you just said. Like, that's just, that's ridiculous, right? You're basically saying, like, if everybody could just try to do a little bit better or has the gumption to just do one thing, like the world will be a better place. And you're under fear of reprisal for saying that. And I think that emanates from a sort of vitriolic temperament that a lot of people in the movement have where it's an all or nothing thing. And you have to do it a certain way or you're ostracized. And I think that's a huge problem. You know, I think we have to

walk forward with a perspective of, you know, creating a, a welcome, uh, mat for people that, you know, would like to take one step and aren't ready to go the other way. I mean, just the, the story that you told in my story is very different, but it was certainly an evolution and it was, um, probably impeded by all of those voices out there that make you feel like, uh, perhaps this isn't, you know, the friendliest movement that I can align myself with. Right. And that's, that I can align myself with, right? And that's holding everything back. Yeah.

So you've saved, at this point, thousands of dogs? We've saved a lot of dogs. You went and shut down a bunch of slaughterhouses, right, and suddenly found yourself sort of responsible for like a thousand dogs on one of your trips, right, that you had to place and help. But a lot of these dogs die, right, shortly thereafter because they're in such poor health. Well, so I'll kind of describe to you like what we do or so. So I've taken these nine trips and each one I think has gotten bigger than the next except for trip seven.

Trip seven was this huge Yulin trip. I went to all these countries first, and then I ended it with Yulin. In Yulin, every year people sign petitions against this Dogmeat Festival. Every year people hold rallies. And it's some disrespect to anybody who does that or anything that's ever happened for that. But every year this festival still went on and I don't know I try to think I try to look into the future and see tomorrow and bring it to today and that's what businessmen do entrepreneurs do and that's what you should do in rescue that's

what you should do in anything and so I thought to, what can I do that's different? And I said, if I can go there and shut down for the festival a number of slaughterhouses and restaurants, then what does that do? That takes away all the inventory from the people. And maybe if I'm migrating from 12 hours away, catching a plane to come to see this thing,

and I get there and there's hardly any dogs that the festival sucks I'll never come back and that's what was going on in my mind and so that's what we set out to do I wanted to shut down 12 and we shut down six when I went to these places you know like I said I'm, and, like, I'm just one guy trying to do his best. When I went to these places, man, they had hundreds of dogs. And I put this SOS out for help, and all these big groups turned their back on us, and they wouldn't help us. Not only that. Why is that?

I couldn't even tell you. You know, in dog rescue or in cat rescue or in animal rescue, we're supposed to rescue animals. But I think it was political or whatever. But they turned their back on us. And so even some of those groups said, leave them. You know, you came what you did to do, leave them. Let them die. And I couldn't.

I couldn't leave And I couldn't. I couldn't leave. I couldn't. And I couldn't because imagine if they did that to people and someplace there was this human festival where all these children were there and they're going to hang them and beat them or do whatever they do to them. And somebody came to rescue you or to shut these places down but he left you there

to be killed after i couldn't live with myself and so i asked for help and none came except for a group of monks who came and they helped us and we rescued over a thousand dogs and this group they're called the Tree of Life. And a lot of people have attacked them too. And a lot of people have attacked us over this big rescue. And a lot of people have it wrong. I didn't rescue dogs. I mean, I didn't go there to rescue dogs saying, I'm going to go get all these dogs.

I went there to raise awareness, to hopefully take away from the festival. to raise awareness, to hopefully take away from the festival. In doing so, thousand dogs, what do you do? Do I do what these groups told me to do, leave them to die? Or do I make the humane choice of saying, I'm going to free you? We had volunteers that helped us that came with me to Yulin. You know, Helen Reed, this guy Ben, Travis, a whole bunch of them. Without them, couldn't have been done.

But without the Tree of Life, these monks who helped us, it was impossible. And so the dogs were split up between three groups. The Tree of Life, the Gaiao Ministry, they took about 350 dogs. We took 300. And the Tree of Life in Guangzhou took about 450, something like 400. A lot of dogs died from disease. A lot of our dogs died too out of our 300. Gaiao had the least losses because their dogs were much healthier than our dogs and tree of life got the worst dogs they got the slaughterhouse that we went to

i mean if you saw the condition that these dogs were in terrible i mean just terrible and so each group was responsible for their dogs like i said we lost dogs uh the tree of life in guangzhou when they got their dogs they put out this stress call i went from nannying over to guangzhou to help them we brought in vets i didn't know this but monks because they're buddhists have different beliefs from us they don't believe in. They don't believe in vets, stuff like that. And so we had a hard time helping them. But in the end, they still allowed some vets to come in. What we did, which was more successful,

we got local small Chinese groups to step in. They took 100 dogs here, 50 dogs, 30 dogs, stuff like that, so we could get the Tree of Life number down to a sustainable number, and then we took 100 dogs here, 50 dogs, 30 dogs, stuff like that, so we could get the Tree of Life number down to a sustainable number, and then we took 100 more. And so there's a lot of criticism going around based on this big rescue. The criticism is about what? Well, a lot of the criticism is from other groups, a lot of Asian groups who cast doubt on what we did,

who's saying that where are these dogs now and like our foundation is not really the humane society we are not like i don't know who else is big out there these big groups you know really it started off as just me and i use my and i write on facebook and instagram and i write through my own experience i write about how i connect to animals i write about the suffering what i feel stuff like that and it started like that and it's still like that and so we don't do these daily posts about oh my gosh this dog got adopted oh my gosh this dog's smiling in a tree stuff like that right like you don't have the the finances or the manpower to like follow through on every case and and so you know these

dogs are out there and i guess because we haven't posted much about it that people wonder what happened to them and you know and every group things are going to be in disagreement and so we had a volunteer that is you know he he despises us now and he has damaged our reputation in Asia, said a bunch of things that weren't true. We're well documented, meaning that I'm smart enough to keep chats and save all this documentation. So when we have to show proof, we can. Some people have even said Mark didn't go to Indonesia or these countries. Some people have even said, Mark didn't go to Indonesia or these countries. And so a couple of days ago, I posted my passport because, and I had chose a while back not to defend myself anymore.

Because you can't, you know, there's going to be people that hate you and there's going to be people that like you. And that's part of the game. And so, but I was advised from a big animal rights activist that I should. And so I posted my passport with all my stamps. I mean, you cannot deny that. Not only that, I'm posting, it's probably going to go up today, where all the dogs are, how they're doing now, things like that. It's so insane, you know, to imagine that you have to defend yourself from attack when, you know, I'm looking at a guy who, you know, he's got a family, he's got a business.

You could just be chilling at Starbucks in Sherman Oaks, you know, and you're making this decision to put yourself out there in harm's way and do work that's very difficult and heart wrenching, obviously, uh, to be attacked. Like it's, it's, it's beyond imagination. Yeah. Or making that choice, you know, that choice to actually stand up and do something. You know, sometimes I wonder what I'm going to do. Like you said, I'm very, I don't know,

people think I'm strong, but I'm not. I'm like the polar opposite. I'm actually very weak. I think my only good quality is that I'm compassionate, and I believe in that so much that it's everything to me. You know, to feel, to absorb the attacks, and it's almost as difficult as walking into that slaughterhouse. Why?

It's because when you're doing something for one reason only, and it's so personal, that reason, when you're attacked over it, it's obliterating. If you're doing it for another cause, money or things like that, it might not be. I don't know. But when you do it because you feel so compelled to stop something because it's ruined your life and people attack you over it, it's mind-blowing. That's got to be almost as hard to process as the animal suffering itself.

Yeah, it's bizarre and so and yet at the same time uh you have been able to direct the world spotlight onto this issue i mean just in in preparing for today's interview and going online to you know learn more beyond what i already knew uh you've gotten a lot of press. I mean, there's a lot of, you know, people that have written about the work that you've done and like legitimate, like great, you know, news sources out there. And I watched the video with Joaquin Phoenix and Matt Damon, and you've got these, you know, your friend, Tony Kanaal, and, you know, a lot of amazing people who are giving voice to the work that you're doing.

And I have to believe and hold out hope that that is moving the needle and will ultimately catalyze change. I hope you're right. Yeah. Well, I think it's a good place to wrap it up. But the final thing I'd love to hear some thoughts on from you is,

for people that are listening right now who are, I would imagine there's people listening right now who had no idea this was even going on at all. Right. And, and feel compelled to act or to lend a helping hand or, or who are wondering, how can I get involved? So, uh, the best place to do that is to probably reach out to you through the Animal Hope and Wellness Foundation, right? Sure. Which is animalhopeandwellness.org. Is that right? Correct. Yes.

And what can the individual out there who's listening do? Well, I think the way people can help us the most is by raising awareness. Especially when we post especially like when we post about the issue you can share it right now or coming up our anti-dog meat you know our bill against eating dogs and cats getting support for that is important but i think the best thing or the thing that i would ask of everybody is just do a little more regardless of what it is you don't have to help us you don't have to support us but be more conscious and you know hug someone who's crying i mean something just like that could

change a life and change the world and so yeah all right man well i think i will bookend it with saying that uh people should also check out your facebook and instagram the instagram is at animal hope and wellness is that what it is where uh you write lengthy and quite poetic and heart-wrenching literally essays about how you're emotionally processing what's going on, you know, juxtaposed against these, these images that you've collected as a result of these travels. And,

um, it's really quite something, you know, and obviously as we said earlier, it's, it's attracted a lot of attention. It's, you've got quite a big following there,

but I think that will give everybody a pretty solid glimpse into, you know, how you're, you know, how you're navigating all of this. And the Facebook page as well, right? Correct, thanks. Is there anything else coming up? Are you speaking anywhere? Or any other ways for people to connect with you?

Well, I have a trip coming up in January. We have this big microchip initiative in China where we're going to offer free microchips to all these dogs. So when the trucks come in for Yulin, we can scan them and prove that all these dogs are stolen. You know, it's still the government's job to protect people's property. And so we're trying to do that right now. So they're stealing dogs. Where are they stealing them from? People's homes or just

yeah a lot of the dogs are still a lot of the dogs are stolen one thing that people might be interested in before we go is we're actually in the process of creating two programs for the public school system one is the shelter program but my foundation is creating we we're using Sherman Oaks Elementary as a charter example, but we're providing a vegan option for all the kids at the school. And we're paying for it for two years. Wow. And we're trying to use that as a model because my kids go there and they don't have that choice. You know, the milk industry and the meat industry, they're so wrapped up into the school and in that pyramid.

And so we've had to reconstruct the pyramid and show them how they get their protein and things in our presentation. But I don't know. It's like change. It's going to happen. That's really cool. I mean, that's very difficult to push that boulder up that mountain because the school lunch program is so entrenched.

And there's a lot of money involved with that. So trying to get any change whatsoever in that world, or up that mountain because the school lunch program is so entrenched. And, you know, there's a lot of money involved with that. So trying to get any change whatsoever in that world is really difficult. So that's pretty amazing. You know, what we found out is if you make it free and it doesn't cost them, that's key. You make it free so it doesn't cost them money. But not only that, you know, we told them you'll get media.

It's a charter school, so people donate to we told them you'll get media it's a charter school so people donate to them too you'll get media all these things will happen and like yeah you know it doesn't cost you a penny very cool so yeah hopefully that you could scale that and and have that that kind of program replicable in in other schools across the country right yeah? Yeah, that's the goal. So if any principals or school administrators are listening, maybe reach out to Mark and you could provide some guidance. Yeah, that'd be great. Is that good? Yeah, perfect. Cool, man.

Well, thanks so much. The work that you do is very inspiring. It's very important. I don't know anybody who could not get behind the idea that what you're doing to end the suffering and the abuse of dogs is not work of the highest calling. And I hope that you find a way to continue to advance your message. And I'm here to be of service to you. If there's anything I can do for you, please let me know. And, uh, and try to take care of yourself too. Sure. Thank you. Thank you. Thanks. Peace plants. All right, you guys, we did it. Thank you for listening. I hope that,

uh, you were impacted by that. I hope that you learned something. I hope that that helped elevate and raise your awareness about an issue, like I said in the intro, that deserves our attention and deserves our focus and that I think is really worth talking about. If you have a minute, please take a moment to check out the PSA that Animal Hope and Wellness produced, that Mark produced. It's embedded on the episode page for this podcast. And as always, please make a point of checking out the show notes. I've got tons of links and resources, a lot of articles about Mark and his work that will help fill in the gaps and serve to help you better understand what this issue is all about, what we can do about it, and what work remains to be done.

So that's it. Thank you for sharing the show with your friends and on social media. I appreciate everybody who has left a review. Please take a moment to do that on iTunes. If you haven't done so already, click that subscribe button. Again, don't forget to use the Amazon banner ad for your holiday purchases, richroll.com forward slash Amazon. And of course, Patreon for those that want to support us financially, the work that we do. Thank you very much. If you'd like to get a short weekly email from me,

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