The Rich Roll Podcast - Mark Cavendish: An Intimate Conversation With The Greatest Sprinter In Cycling History

Episode Date: December 11, 2023

Even in your darkest moments, the potential for redemption lays in wait. Mark Cavendish is a living illumination of this truth—a man who bounced back from career-ending setbacks and a protracted battle with mental health to become the greatest sprinter in cycling history. Over the course of his storied career, Mark has taken home 55 Grand Tour stage victories, 162 professional victories, and has won an astonishing 34 stages of the Tour de France, tying a previously thought impossible-to-match record set almost 50 years ago by Eddy Merckx. At the pinnacle of his career, Mark suffered a debilitating crash, began to battle seemingly insurmountable health obstacles—a debilitating crash, disordered eating, depression, and Epstein-Barr—that took him out of elite performance contention for nearly five years. But instead of ending his career, Mark fought back. In an extraordinary comeback Tour de France in 2021, Mark won four stages and the green jersey nearly a decade after he had last won it—a meteoric rise, fall, and resurrection beautifully portrayed in the recent Netflix documentary, Mark Cavendish: Never Enough. This is a powerful and revealing conversation about grit, commitment, mental health, and the hard-wrought journey to success. In addition to discussing his new Netflix documentary, we recount the highs and lows of Mark’s incredible career, his battle with mental health, and his unique relationship with cognitive performance strategist Dr. David Spindler. Mark also shares his new relationship with goals, and how he manages the pressure to eclipse Eddie Merckx’s historic record by winning his 35th stage at the 2024 Tour de France, where he will compete against riders nearly half his age. I found Mark to be humble and grateful—a gentle champion with a firm grasp on what is truly important and why. My hope is that Mark’s story serves as a powerful reminder that taking responsibility for your mental health is crucial, and that no matter how far you’ve fallen, there is always hope to build a better future for yourself and others. Enjoy! Show notes + MORE Watch on YouTube Newsletter Sign-Up Today’s Sponsors: AG1: drinkAG1.com/RICHROLL Birch: BirchLiving.com/RICHROLL Babbel: Babbel.com/RICHROLL BetterHelp: BetterHelp.com/RICHROLL Whoop: Whoop.com/RICHROLL Indeed: Indeed.com/RICHROLL Roka: Roka.com/RICHROLL Peace + Plants, Rich

My job is to win. Here comes Mark Cavendish. Mark Cavendish is going to do it. Mark Cavendish takes the title again. Mark Cavendish is the greatest sprinter in the history of cycling. That was just a piece of magic. Mark Cavendish, one of the most successful sprinters of all time. I'm still doing what I love as a job, but you forget that you're doing what you love as a job.

Mark has won an astonishing 34 stages of the Tour de France. If you put it into the kind of context of what a race is, you learn from positives and negatives, don't you? I've had good luck before, I've got bad luck now. That's life, that's bike racing, you know? How are you feeling about the season that lies ahead? Yeah, good.

If I do everything I can do to the best that I can do it, then I'm happy. There's a pressure to win, and it's how you deal with that that is the biggest factor between first and second. There's so many little things about this sport that just make it beautiful. It's a different kind of race this year. Thanks so much for doing this, man. No worries. It's a pleasure to meet you. I'm honored that you made the time.

I can't imagine how you feel right now. You were in Japan yesterday. Yeah. I don't know what time it is for you right now, but you did a criterium like Sunday, right? Today's Monday. Yeah. It's so weird like leaving Japan and then arriving here before I left.

It's like being in a sci-fi movie. Right. You know, I've never like skipped a day. Normally it was between Europe and I. So we'll see how long we go before I'm like hitting the microphone. We'll go easy on you, man. We're all friends here. And we're in this very unique auto garage

because you couldn't make it across town. So I'm glad we could accommodate it. I know you do. I mean, obviously you do a ton of media, but you haven't done a ton of this kind of media, these types of podcasts. So, you know, I appreciate you being open to it. That's no problem.

I don't actually do that much media anymore. We have media commitments. We have to do around racing but i don't really do even that much media anymore really how has the netflix documentary being out there kind of changed how people interface with you like average people who aren't gearheads do you know what like it it thrown me because it's been so overwhelmingly positive like nothing's ever really happened to me positive without something negative to kind of yeah counterbalance it you know and it's been quite overwhelming like i wanted to just lock myself in the garage for two months because like i just said like that you're waiting for it okay can't be something

good without the backlash yeah and then uh i think mostly was like quite laying myself bare you know as a sports person you don't i guess the best way to describe is you play a character don't you you know like not necessarily to fans and that but your rivals you know especially as a sprinter you have to there's there's a certain I guess stereotype that goes with that and there's a lot of mind games as well as physical just to lay my real self out there flaws and all it's quite feel a bit exposed actually you know like not in a bad way it's not like uh terrified but I just kind of wanted to close myself off from the world. That's interesting. I mean, I think two observations on that. The first thing is just your openness to even doing it.

Like I was curious if that decision was made when you thought you were going to retire because it's one thing to do something like this post-career to open yourself up and to be vulnerable on that level, sort of like how Beckham did recently with his thing, but for you to be still in the sport and like reveal a side of you that perhaps there's an aspect of your competitive nature that wishes, you know, people didn't know, it's not surprising that you feel that way. But I also think my second observation is that

that is an extension of all the work that you've done on your mental health to feel okay about putting that out there like this exploration and vulnerability and realizing that it doesn't need to negatively impact your performance and in fact you know evidence has shown that it's made you stronger and more resilient and has contributed to your longevity in the sport yeah that's true we've talked about the stuff with the film with everything that happened in the film it's quite organic actually like actually when we decided to do something it was kind of before all that stuff happened and then just it completely changed because all that happened oh so it's been going on for a long time.

Yeah. There's a lot more impact with it now anyway than what would just be highlights of my career really. Yeah, I mean, it's a documentary about mental health. That's what it is. Especially now, it's talked about a lot more, which is great. So you don't mind it there. Actually, the biggest thing I say is that from my personal view of

mental health like before i suffered i thought it was an excuse you know like in fact there's actual things i see in some of my competitors in the past that if i knew then what I know now, like I perhaps preyed on problems that some of my competitors had without knowing. Like I said, I thought just snap out of it. Like, what's wrong with you? Like, I'm not glad I suffered and suffer. Like I wouldn't wish it on anybody, but at least I can understand

and not just someone that wasn't thought about it I really thought it was an excuse yeah just pull yourself up yeah out of the gutter what's your problem exactly on your mind move forward exactly so now I can really talk about it with experience like take it seriously like I for one was not one that not not I wasn't even didn't think about i just didn't take it seriously at all as somebody who's who's been doing this for a very long time i'm sure you've gotten really good at figuring out what your competitors weaknesses are you're going to exploit those physically but like how can you exploit those mentally right with you know how

you're interacting with these people uh does it does it make you less inclined to do that or are you still able to kind of deploy that no a lot less like cliched smack talk say do you know which was something i employed quite a lot in the past i just don't do it now just any negative negativity is as a whole do you know when they say like when you when you're a kid like you make yourself better to be better don't make people worse for you to be better like it's that on a on a grown-up level yeah yeah yeah i mean you're a grown-up you know and you actually seem like you seem like a much happier person like a more grounded person you're approaching the sport more from a perspective of joy and gratitude than just being on that edge where winning is everything. And it's so interesting that the documentary is called Never Enough, right?

I'm sure your definition of that has changed from how you might have thought of that in earlier years. Yeah. I have to kind of think back and think what I was thinking. It's hard to do that because it's just you. You know? When you have to kind of explain who you were it was just you so you don't really know you just know like with everything in life like with a race

if you put it into the kind of context of what a race is you learn from positives and negatives don't you if you win even though you've won you might still have made mistakes or you might have done something new and you learn you you you put that into into play the next time you go out and more importantly when you don't win like you learn from from what you did wrong and try and put that into practice next next time and life's a lot like that i guess um you learn the older you get the the wise you are of course the best thing for for learning moving forward is making mistakes you know or or doing things maybe you know you don't necessarily regret them but maybe you think back i would have done that different and then you have kids as well and yeah that changes that changes yeah exactly

exactly what life is all about and why you do things and I don't know I don't know if it's growing up or it's what I've been through or what but I'm just like I used to harbor negativity and I actually it served me quite well sometimes because that it created a fire but i tell you you feel a lot lighter if you just don't harbor negativity negativity towards people or towards something you've done or right but it's scary to let go of that it's a very reliable fuel source you know and it served you well it's part of the equation this is how i win right and the prospect of like hey you're gonna have to let go of that if you want to get over this hump and continue to race, and you're going to have to find a new fuel source.

I would imagine that's terrifying for anybody who's acclimated to kind of that perspective. Just enjoy it. It's kind of, it sounds so silly. It sounds so simple, so cliched. But if you can enjoy and appreciate every pedal rev it makes everything worthwhile with what you're doing like I get to do what I love as a job you know and when I first turned professional I realized that but very quickly you know i was world champion i won everything i did and you forget that and

i'm still doing what i love as a job but you forget that you're doing what you love as a job my job is to win you know and uh that's kind of i want to win for sure but that pressure is put from an outside entity you know right right right right so you're you're just so literally like a month ago you just announced that you weren't retiring and you were coming back so how much of that decision is about like the joy piece like i love what i do i love riding my bike i love the the camaraderie and being at these races versus the project 35 got to get that win and get my name up on the record boards i have the record for most stage wins like i'm enjoying with it yeah you know i have it i'm not taking anything away from you yeah you set a goal you try and achieve it hopefully you

do achieve it i don't want to be like a non-playing character and just ride around the and that's not fair on anybody you know everything I do is always I want a purpose for it within everything I can control if I do everything I can do to the best that I can do it then I'm happy if I know I just work hard put myself in the best position to win and I chose made the decision to retire actually just because position to win and I chose made the decision to retire actually just because I was happy again like I lost so much love for what I was doing I guess like I forgot why I was doing it and I wouldn't say I'd have ever been bitter but if you start a career with a love of something you've done your whole life you want to finish your career with that yeah and finally i've got that again and uh it was like wow it's perfect stuff like

fortunately i crashed at the tour de france and that is what it is i was like i've had good luck before i've got bad luck now that's that's life that's bike racing you know yeah yeah yeah it was all sort of lined up for you last year. The crash took you out. By your own words, your motivation was super high and you were very positive about your prospects and how you would do. So now here we are the next year.

The Tour de France course was just unveiled. How are you feeling about the season that lies ahead? Yeah, good. We're starting out and it's to say i've done it 20 times so i know what to do and it's quite nice actually like no one i can build towards july like it was strange for a few years that you had to fight for your place in the team to get even get to july so that would affect your preparation if you have to fight fight in quotation, but if you have to prove

yourself to go to the tour within teams. So there's eight riders from team go to the Tour de France and there's 30 riders in a team. So you have to prove yourself sometimes. Like for most part of my career, it was a given I go to the tour. So I do the best thing I can to prepare for the tour de france for july and there was these few years like where i had to just try and get in the team to go the tour yeah and to do that you need results and that affects your whole preparation for the tour because you're going to races okay you want results in every race you go to but

obviously you can't specifically train because you're preparing for a race because you don't want... It's hard to... If I train hard before a race, like I'm not going to do the best I can in the race. It's a tapering period. It's not the training that gets you better. What are you really angling for?

And this year it's all about the Tour. So you don't have to worry yourself with all of these like early season races and you've got a whole team that's lined up and organized around your success this year which is which is different that's a new thing you put it a lot more eloquently yeah but the other thing is the other thing is a little different is that you meet your demons a couple amazing people come into your life to resuscitate what everyone at that point believes to be, you know, game over for you. And at the last minute, you're selected for the tour in 2021.

There's really no pressure on you because nobody expects anything from you. And you have had this experience of weathering your mental health journey and kind of coming out on the other side of that and entering that race with a kind of newfound perspective. Before, it wasn't anything if I won because I won. It was big if I didn't win.

All I could do was lose before. Whereas now, I really get the sense both of myself, the people close around me, my my wider fans that it's just a bonus yeah do you know what i mean yeah it's a nice target to have to stand alone stage into the tour de france but it's like your identity is not hinged on like how you're gonna perform whereas before it was a failure if i didn't win there's not many sports people that that happens to it's a it's a failure if they don't win. Like you lose more than you win. If you have a tennis match with one player versus one player,

you have a 50% chance of winning. And you have 200 bike riders on a 200 kilometer circuit with variables that are just infinite. You know, your chances of winning significantly reduce my team boss alex vinokurov he was olympic champion in london he had a big crash the year before he should have retired and he's like i'm gonna win the olympics and uh i was favorite for that race and he won and uh as a boss he's incredible because he says look we try that's it all we can do is try we put the work and we do what we can do and he's 100 right if we do everything you do when someone's better doesn't happen doesn't happen if we do everything we can do we put ourselves in the best chance of of winning and i think if we do what we do then the chances of winning are quite high

yeah it's got to be different to have uh a former rider especially of his caliber as the team manager as opposed to just a manager who who wasn't you know a rider they have a different lens on it you feel the difference with a champion there's riders i talk in psych and speaking you can talk about it a lot more broader but in in Saigon speaking, you have riders, you have good riders when they win and you have people that win a lot, you know, and it's hard to win. You know, there's a lot of riders always second and third, which is good. Like I said, out of Peloton, I have nearly 200 riders. Getting consistently second, third is good. Like I said, out of a peloton of nearly 200 riders, getting consistently second, third is good. The difference between getting consistently second or third and winning, to get a win, it's

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same range and all of that but racing's different it's dealing with pressure was always my answer will always be my answer it's your ability to deal with pressure it might be pressure from someone else it might be pressure from yourself but there's a pressure to winning and it's how you deal with that that is the biggest factor between first and second. So how has your relationship with pressure changed? I never really felt it anyway. It's more dealing with the aftermath of that pressure that was always, that's changing what I did. If it went well, obviously I'm elated, like throwing a bouncy ball in a room, you know,

whereas the other way I probably was angry or just over emotional the other way you know lashed out at myself or other people you know and uh wouldn't sleep at night going over what happened what happened what happened what happened things like that whereas now it's there's not, like, holding on to it. You move on straight away is what it is, isn't it? How much of that is a result of the work that you've done on your mental health with David Spindler and the people that came into your life at the lowest moments?

Yeah, it's everything to do with it. I think it was just learning what's important. We didn't do so much work as such. David was really good at, he's obviously explained it to me after, but he dropped something in, like a cue for me to work it out myself. I didn't know he was doing that. Things are going off the rails. You're not winning. You've got Epstein-Barr. You've got no energy. You didn't know he was doing that. Things are going off the rails. You're not winning.

You've got Epstein-Barr. You've got no energy. You couldn't make the time cut in the Tour de France. You had to drop out. You sink into this depression. You sort of allude to some disordered eating patterns also. And it's a pretty dark hole that's starting to impact your marriage. Your whole life feels like a house of cards that's starting to impact your marriage. Like your whole life feels like a

house of cards that's falling in on itself. And this guy, David Spindler, comes out to the Isle of Man, right? And hangs out with you and just seems like he's just trying to understand you and get to know you. And it would appear from watching the documentary that a big part of the way in towards solving this problem was helping you reconnect with the joy that brought you into cycling in the first place. Like when you go to the field where you first learned how to ride and he starts to understand and see that that's what you need to recapture in order to rebuild. Yeah. Make me just realize why I ride my bike. It's as simple as that. And getting you over the hump on this idea

that maybe you need and could accept some help, right? Like this idea that mental health is actually a thing. That was a pretty big hurdle, actually. How did he crack you open on that one? I knew something was wrong. It was when I went and got all the tests. The doctor, Helga, he's someone I trusted so much. I want to talk about everything that I felt,

but the irony is I didn't feel anything. You try and think back, and it's like thinking back into an abyss, really. Do you know? It's quite strange. Just being numb and like losing that enthusiasm for life and it's different to being sad do you know i think what i used to not understand i used to think you just you're just sad like it's not sad it's a good way to describe it is you're sad but you're not sad it's not for you it's not

anything it's quite easy to see somebody who maybe they themselves don't know something's wrong it could be quite easy to dismiss them as like feeling sorry for themselves but they're not yeah yeah i wonder like in your case how much of it is like a brain chemistry thing, like there's something broken in the wiring that needs to get, you know, figured out and reconfigured on the one hand. And then on the other hand, this idea that your identity is so wrapped up in being a champion, somebody who always wins. And when suddenly that's not happening happening like there's an identity crisis like who am i or you know my purpose is to win races and i'm like a a machine for victories and when that's no longer the case like it's hard for me to dissect that because it's obviously observations from the people around me do you know you don't feel like that at the time i didn't feel like that i still

kind of don't feel like that that i had. I didn't feel like that. I still kind of don't feel like that, that I had an identity that went because I couldn't do it. I'm just me. I don't know any different to how I know, you know? It's more observations from the people knowing me, you know? Like, and it makes sense, and I wholeheartedly agree with what they say. Unfortunately, I can't analyze it.

Right. But what were some of the things that you began to do that started to allow you to claw out of it or start to see the light? People around you. The be-all and end-all. I'm very lucky that I had some very good people around me that were patient and just helped me put things in perspective really beyond your wife your family the two people that come to mind beyond spindler are vozzy who comes in as your coach and you seem to immediately like resonate with him and it feels

like he understands you and has a way of communicating with you but he's just straight he's just straight i've always appreciated someone that's just straight okay you learn as you're older you can be straight and still be diplomatic you know i could say you did that wrong doesn't help anyone you might do something wrong instead of just going you did that wrong that's it. What's your gain from that? There's no point saying a negative without some sort of solution. You know, you did that wrong. You maybe could have done that there, and it would have gone this way instead of that.

You know, it's the same thing, but it's a positive in how you say it. And I've learned to do that by still being straight. And Vazzy was straight with me. It's quite refreshing to have someone that just tells you straight, you know. And did he also, he brought a different kind of structure to your training, like the physical part of it also? He brought our structure to my training. I've had a structure before, really.

With that much time that I had away from cycling, really, you lose your physical ability as well you know so that takes a time to build up i'd been professional by that point over a decade like and uh the resilience and that you build up over that time is compounded from years and years of kilometer after kilometer after kilometer and having a big block off it's like retiring and coming back from retirement. You know, it doesn't just happen. You have to work. And I think he was able to do that.

I still don't like training instructors. I don't like how we train. Like, I'd rather go out and ride, you know? But I understand it. How has that change evolved as you're aging up? Like in terms of recovery and just being really precise and intentional about your workouts? Is that more important than it used to be?

Are you still able to bounce back? No, the sports changed as well. Yeah. So you have to be more dialed now. When I started, hey, there was sports science, but there wasn't the data there is now to collect. So basically you turn professional if you won races as an amateur.

That's it. Now the majority of the peloton, they never won a race as an amateur. You can see physically from the data that they're strong. So everybody's strong. Not necessarily good bike riders but strong so like the speed is just ridiculously high the bikes are faster so the speeds higher and just everyone's strong yeah everyone so you have to level up in terms of your training but at the same time very good i'm not like like really ride your bike around yeah old school style yeah really coffee right i'm not very good. I'm not, like, really. You're always going to ride your bike around. Yeah.

Old school style. Yeah, really. Coffee rides. I'm not. Do some tempo, call it a day. I'm actually a bit of a runt in cycling. You know, I just ride my bike a lot. But there's a whole generation of cyclists coming up who, to your point, incredibly strong, power to weight, all that kind of stuff, super dialed.

They understand the technology. There's all these gadgets and trackers and there's no end to the amount of data you can collect and kind of mine to get better. But at some point that doesn't replace experience or, you know, I mean, frankly, like the balls to race, right? Like all of that stuff is more instinct and experience. Yeah, instinct more.

You still have to work out. You set a plan before and you can know. The more you can go over something, the more you do something, the more it becomes instinct you do without thinking, you know? Yeah, and that's a benefit of age, I guess. Yeah. You've had many scenarios before. I do want to like indulge you with one thing.

I want to show you something. Can I show you a clip? Yeah. There goes Mark Cavendish. before. I do want to like indulge you with one thing. I want to show you something. Can I show you a clip? Yeah. Just something unbelievable. And I was so proud. And I was so proud. That's an amazing moment, man. Yeah, it's nice. What does it bring up for you to watch that now? I mean, you're so emotional. It's just this amazing catharsis where, you know, everything that led up to that,

you know, finally you could kind of let it go. to that you know finally you could kind of let it go just like my wife peter said just holding on it was just finally letting go of that hold on like it might never have come might not have won there and then might never be that let it go do you think about that no had things gone just a little bit differently like you might not have had that opportunity because they didn't yeah you know like we've done everything we possibly could within our control to do it you know that's all you can do and fortunately made for a successful race it sounds quite unromantic to like how i talk about it it's it's as simple as that really i just could let go there and then like and it did happen like that and that's why it it went like that yeah you know did you just feel lighter and the confidence was there like the rest of the tour after kind of breaking that seal

became easier and more joyful? I wouldn't say I felt lighter because I didn't feel pressure anyway going into that. It wasn't like I had everything to gain and nothing to lose. So it wasn't like I felt any pressure go because it was not in there anyway, but I definitely felt the confidence after that and I felt the confidence that the boys had as well and that is a massive factor that's always been a massive driving factor in my performance is how committed my teammates are you know you don't necessarily

have to be the strongest but if you're committed you're probably better everyone else it's another cliche like a strong team is sure is way stronger than a team of strong people you know it feels like your team this year going into into the tour is very strong you've got your lead out sorted you got vinicora of supporting you you've got vazi you've got all the elements right so that must feel good got committed boys i know that which is nice and lads that know me you know i work i always think you get a good sense of how a team's going to perform by not how they are on the bike, but how they are at the dinner table. So where we go, we stay in hotels,

and not quite often you'll have two, three, four teams in the same hotel overnight, and it can change which teams you're with and that. It's too complicated going how they do the hotels but i always think normally a team will go to dinner about the same time finished in the same time the teams that stay longest after they finished eating at the dinner table are usually the most the most successful teams as a rule of thumb. Yeah, yeah. But the difference between your sport and a lot of other sports is you're not training with these guys day in, day out. Yeah. It's a mad sport like that.

Yeah. And even that, there's only one guy crosses the line. And you've got to be simpatico with your lead out. So I'm smaller than most of the guys as well. So I have to trust where we're going and that's built on a lot more than just being on the bike. And I'm fortunate to have some of the best, most selfless people in the sport during my career.

You know, I'm very, very fortunate for that. It is such a weird thing though, because most of the training you're probably doing alone right but that's nothing like the racing and nothing like the teamwork required to you know for you to be successful and your teammates to be successful you come together for these camps and then you see each other at races it's mad and can you imagine it doesn't make sense actually can you imagine being a lead out guy where you know you've got a train you've got to make yourself vomiting training by going odd so that you could go and make somebody else cross the finish line first

okay the team's winning there's only one rider has their name on the yeah for me that's incredibly special for guys that know their job is to sacrifice themselves for somebody else. And they'll go out and hurt themselves at home just so they can hurt more to support you in the race. Like, it blows my mind.

Yeah, there really isn't any other sport like that. Nah. It's what's so beautiful about this sport. There's so many little things about this sport that just make it

just beautiful, you know? When you look at the layout for this year's tour, like, where's your head at in terms of, it's a different kind of race this year. It's not ending in Paris with the Champs-Élysées. You're in Italy for part of it. It's a very challenging course. Yeah.

For all riders. But for a sprinter, like, you don't choose whether you're a climber or a sprinter. It's a physiological makeup that defines if you can go uphill fast or not. It doesn't matter how much I trained. If I only trained on hills, I'd still be last up a hill or one of the last.

I just wouldn't be very fast in a sprint yeah next year's tour de france is very hard for anybody that can't go uphill decent like it's always hard you know it's never easy it's never easy to make a time cut to finish it it's never easy to put into perspective the last group on the road on a mountain day which is normally my group we would finish a stage in a faster time than the winner

of what's called Le Tap de Tour which is a grand fond or massive amateur event that does one stage of the Tour de France you get ringer amateurs

out for that yeah you know but it's a whole different tier yeah it's not just a level above it's a whole different tier yeah it's not just a just a level above it's a complete other level above and then there's the gap between you know you being in that

final group coming over the hill versus you know whoever's taking that stage that's a huge time gap too yeah it's look sometimes it's like we're never going easy and talking you're never doing that but sometimes it's not as close as it might seem say we're likely to lose 38 minutes in that one stage on the on the, but the time limit is 45 minutes. We're idiots if we only finish at 38 minutes and not 44 minutes. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. Cause you're not, it doesn't matter. Yeah. It's really quite done. It's calculated now. You can work out what the winner will do, and then you work out how many watts per kilo you have to do on each climb, how much time you'd lose on each climb, and then you can work out the overall time you'd lose.

So you can kind of ride to a, you still have to be able to do that, and it's a lot higher than even an average amateur cyclist would be able to do. It's quite calculated. It's a math it's low. It's a math equation, you know, for you. You know exactly, yeah, and you've got, it's about efficiency because you're looking at, you know, the whole event and where you're going to make your mark.

It's not going to be on the hill. Exactly. I might be taking the show away from the commentators. You know, they have to make a story about how to make it exciting, but it's not that exciting. How much he's hurting at the back, right? You're just like, no, I'm doing this on purpose because I got, you know,

in three days I got this other stage that I'm thinking about. There's times when we're fighting to make the limit. There is. I can't deny that but it's not that often really.

Yeah, but it's still fucking hard every single day, right? The grind of like doing that day in and day out and having done it for 20 years like I can't imagine and

it's a loneliness to be fair yeah like even though you're not talking you're not riding if you're in a big bunch there's so much going on that you're thinking about that because any little thing and you go down yeah when you're on your own all you're thinking about is the pain in your legs and that's actually hard it becomes a mental thing rather than a physical thing, if that makes sense. Because it's all you have to concentrate on. You have nothing else to concentrate on. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Do you know?

And it's that day in, day out of loneliness when you think everybody else is, for me, that's always the hardest thing to overcome. If you go on social media and kind of scroll through, you know, the sort of fitness influencer ecosystem, you see a lot of people talking about gadgets or some kind of supplement or this new recovery modality or that. My sense, though, of all the kind of super elite performers at the highest level of their sport do very little or any of that whatsoever. It's like you train hard, you eat what you need to eat, you go to bed early, you're with your family,

you try to see your friends when you can, and that's basically it. Is that your approach? It's a very old-school approach, but my sense is that that's how you kind of do it yeah obviously there's there's big sacrifices but it's pretty straightforward life like it's harder for somebody that like i said it's my job i i get to do what i love as my job that's all i have to do as a job is ride my bike but at the same time in fairness like that's just it's another year of having to get out there in the freezing cold in the rain like ride by yourself and all of that like to maintain you know kind of the level of motivation that you need to keep doing that it's

like it's not an easy life even at your level no but still get to ride my bike tonight. Yeah, that's true. You know? Like, okay, you would like the choice to not go out if you didn't want to go out, but I quite like going out. There will obviously be times when I'm not going to be loving it, but I still every day know I'm lucky to do what I do. Every single day. At the end of this year,

so there's no pronouncement about whether you're going to keep going or not. No. Are you playing that year by year? I don't know, really. year so there's no pronouncement about whether you're going to keep going or not no like are you playing that year by year i don't know really but i'm old now like i'm racing with you'll be 39 i'm racing right yeah and i'm racing with lads who whose dad i race with i race with their dads you know there's a few of them that they're only a year older than my eldest boy. You know, it's like, how did they treat you in the Peloton? Like, what is their relationship with you as the old guard? I don't know, really.

Like, I'd only be looking at it from my perspective. I'm asking like today, Pogacar, like he's won the Tour de France two times. My five-year-old is like his biggest fan. And he like signed jerseys and stuff for him. So I'm asking him for a signed jersey and stuff like that. So it's kind of a bit out of the race. He's 25, right?

He's like 25 years old. Yeah. He's a good kid, like brilliant kid. I don't know. They're still my competitors. If and when you decide to you know call it a day for

good what does life look like? Like would you have a sense of what you would do? Where you would invest your energy? I stay in the sport

that's yeah that's for sure. I'm quite happy with my team. Stannik, Isaac Stannik. So manager maybe in the future?

I hope so something like that we'll see. I just love it. I love teaching. I love camaraderie, being with my teammates. You know what the only

one thing that I don't like about my job? Having to get dressed to go for breakfast. I thought you were going to say coming and doing podcasts like this hotels like if you go away on holiday it's nice to be in a hotel you don't

have to do your washing make your bed make your breakfast or dinner and it put when you spend I spend 78% of the year in a hotel room. Honestly, it's so nice to be at home and not have to get dressed to have breakfast. Just go down in my underwear and just make a coffee. You still have to share a room at races? Yeah, it depends what team you're in, really. But I like to share a room. I climb the walls if I'm on my own. like to chat joke talk about the day talk about other stuff like i like

company in the room it means a single bed instead of a double bed but yeah i like that company yeah the other crazy thing that happened to you is this situation where your house was robbed that happened to you is this situation where your house was robbed and these people broke into your house. And from what I read, what I understand, like a guy like held you at night, had like a knife to your neck. Wasn't anything I wish on anybody. I can't, I mean, I can't imagine three of them have been convicted. Right. But there's still one guy who's at large. They can't track him down. Yeah. But he's did a good job, really, you know?

It wasn't the nicest night, that's for sure. I mean, I can't even wrap my head around that, you know, what that must have been like. Yeah, not nice. Like, especially, it stays with you a long time after. Like, especially, like, my boy, he was three at the time, in the room in bed. I just, I'd had a crash a few days before.

Uh-huh. I had a collapsed lung, so I'd been in intensive care a day or so. A few days later, my wife had come to pick me up. She drove me home. And, yeah, so I was in bed a bit bad middle of the night they came in and they beat me pretty bad but I'm pretty happy I was there, you know.

Like I had a friend who was away and they tied his wife and kid up, you know, and went in his house. The same guys? I don't know. I don't think so. I don't know. But I count myself lucky. Yeah, that's...

Do you know what I mean? Sorry that that happened. I can't say how that happened. I can't fathom it. With all that you've kind of accomplished and all the growth that you've experienced, how do you think about the young Mark? There's a couple of things, but I think I'd say something,

but then would that affect, you don't know which way you go with it. One, don't trust people like I was just completely trusting. And that leaves yourself quite open to be, you know, really burnt, you know. Be a bit more, don't open yourself too quickly with people. That's something. But, yeah, stay humble, I think. I know when I was younger was younger could have been a little bit more humble at times and i wish i had been i seem like talking about before like when i

like smack talk using somebody's what i perceived as mental weakness against him yeah but i didn't know you know yeah it's not an excuse but at least i also you're you're winning everything right so what does that do to a young mind when when you trust people that aren't going to tell you right someone needs to hit you around the head and say stop that right you know who's giving you the honest feedback you didn't have that when you needed it early no not really. When I was pro, you know. Why?

It's quite common in professional sports. It's like that, you know, you're a product. At the end of the day, like, it's entertainment. You're a product, you know. Like, as a person, you're human. But as a sports person, you're a commodity. Yeah, we could see this person, you know what I mean? I was so happy with how they did that.

It wasn't my film. I didn't have editing rights on the film. And I really believe the director, Alex, the producer's pitch, Netflix. I'm so happy they didn't make it look all shiny. They really showed flaws and how shit I can be as a person, but also how vulnerable I can be as a person. You know, they really showed that. I was quite humbled that they did that, really, you know. Well, I think that's why it works, you know, and I think that's why it's meaningful and i think that you know i mean first of all i commend you for opening yourself up to you know be available for that type of

narrative and conversation you could have easily said i'll revisit this when i'm done with cycling you know i got you know what i mean i know it was quite hard to to film some of it and alex the director was super patient like really really really patient and i think he was incredible to be able to open up to like that and i would stay like that and just let me do it because it's hard to talk about as well like trying to analyze because it's hard to talk about as well. Like trying to analyze struggles you have can kind of put you in a dark place again, you know. And you don't mind if you can share your experiences and maybe somebody relates to it.

It's worth doing then, you know. If you do too much and you can talk negatively, it can spiral you down then you know we do too much and you can it's talking negatively it can spiral you down you know well i think it's also an important piece in a in a larger conversation around like elite athletics and and mental health it kind of pulls the veil on this idea that somebody like yourself or, you know, high performer X, Y, or Z, they're immune from these sorts of conditions and they operate differently than normal people. When in fact, like the pressures are very real and you're human just like everyone else. And you giving voice to this gives other athletes permission to do that. And you giving voice to this gives other athletes permission to do that because, as you know, like everyone is in this situation where they feel like if they're vulnerable, like that's going to really harm their career.

Like if they let anybody know that they're actually hurting, that's a chink in the armor that they don't want their coach to know. They don't want their competitors to know. It might not bode well for them getting re-signed or whatever it is unfortunately even if that's it's not just them thinking that it is detrimental because there's a lot of people that don't understand you know right like unfortunately it's like that and it can be hard for an athlete or a non-athlete to deal with their demons or deal with what's going on or know there's something wrong be able to do something about it that's one that's a struggle in itself but when there's other people making decisions based on the perception of you that you you can't it's actually more detrimental.

Like if you're trying to fight against something, like exactly what I was doing. It wasn't like I was trying to fight against what was going on with me. I was having a battle against obstacles we're putting away. And that's the problem that, that unfortunately you're facing when it's universally misunderstood, like mental health when it's universally misunderstood, like mental health. And it's not to feel sorry for someone. I never want anyone to feel sorry for me.

Why would you feel sorry? It's not something that's good or bad. It just is. But it's an understanding that you don't need to put obstacles in the way making it harder than it already is exactly you know to come out and and talk about these things and i think yeah yeah sort of the the uninformed view of kind of what happened to you when you were in your lower moments is listen you know he had a good career but it's not happening anymore like the train is moving on you know and like mark will figure it out and do something else with his life the people who fought that have never done anything that i've done so how could

they sure how could they put themselves right to think that that was always my thought process how can they say if i can do it or not because they've never done anything that i've done do you know no i understand and but they were the ones stopping me showing them, if that makes sense. I'm not showing them, doing it. It was like you try and go forward, and for every step you do and you happen to push the door. The door is being shut. We don't want to hear about it.

And your whole thing was, you don't go from being the best in the world to suddenly being shit and not being able to do it. Something's wrong. You can decrease steadily over time. But they were saying, listen, you're old, whatever, like blah, blah, blah, like we're done with you. As opposed to, well, let's try to understand

what Mark is saying here. And the fact that, you know, good people came into your life who honored that and you went on this journey with them, came out the other side and proved like, indeed, there was something wrong with you. You addressed it with the physical stuff, the Epstein-Barr,

but also the mental stuff and came out counterintuitively having to deal with vulnerability and mental health and all these things that you probably thought were weaknesses coming out not just stronger, but a more fully actualized person who's happier in their life and more grounded

and can connect with, you know, gratitude and all these sorts of things that, you know, you put blinders on as an athlete to perform and realizing that, oh, that's a more sustainable source of strength for me that can power me through many more years and great successes is a really powerful contribution to how people understand not just mental health, but like athletic performance. And I think you've also sidestepped whatever kind of existential crisis you might have had in the wake of retirement thinking, well, what am I going to do now? I'm used to this like super, you know, exciting, high level, rare kind of life that nobody gets to experience.

I'm probably not going to be able to have those kinds of peak experiences. Like, how do I make sense of my life? Whether you're Michael Phelps or somebody else who's coming out of a career where their identity and their whole, like, kind of way that they operate is based on that to suddenly being a civilian, precipitates more than a few, you know, mental in like high performing athletes yeah but in in all fairness i've had an idea and got into like plans emotional what i'm doing after i never want to just stop and like it is always you think your dream is to stop i've worked i've been doing this since I was a kid. I'm enjoying my life now.

Athletes are driven. That's why they're athletes. It's not just athletes are driven. Many, many people are driven. I need something, a goal. It doesn't matter what it is. I need that. I just need one that allows me more time with my kids, really. Cycling takes up a lot of

time the other weird thing about cycling is that like in other sports especially really grueling ones when an athlete you know finally retires they're like i'm done with that like i don't need to do that cyclists always continue to ride like they stay connected to the sport you know their love affair with the bike doesn't go away which i think is unique and interesting so dynamic cycling like you can do it competitively as a sport you can do it to keep fit on any level spinning or ultra riding or part of a triathlon you can use it as a mode of transport you can do it with your family kids go out and play in the street and it's like like just riding a bike is just so dynamic you got no you can go at what speed you want to go at you know social too exactly yeah you can go out

on your own or with people like you said like socially you can go for as far you want as fast you want healy flat it's so you're free i always felt free on a bike right that's why i did i still feel free now like i think if i'm not doing vazzi's efforts like interval sessions i'm just thinking on my bike if you run too slow you're walking no do you know what i mean like by like okay you fall off you can choose the speed you do like it's brilliant like you know you'll always ride yeah yeah i'll always ride i'm not doing a triathlon though i'd like to see you swim though no mate no like i was at the World Ironman Champs in Neith,

and I was, like, blown away. It's impressive. It's incredible. But it's so stupid. It's so stupid. Putting your body through that.

It's like, Since the guy's in the Tour de France 20 times. I'm just one thing. I'm just riding a bike. Yeah. Well, nothing's over in a day,

though, you know? Yeah. Do you Well, nothing's over in a day though, you know? Yeah. Do you know what? Actually, more than the pros, it's the people that are coming in at midnight.

Like being like, Yeah, that's special. Like however many hours, 16 hours, whatever. Like, it's easy to push through

physical barriers and mental barriers. Like, even before I had all my problems and that. It's how far you can push yourself mentally and like doing that much time like that being out there with just you and your body so impressive yeah like it's it's life-changing i mean it's one thing to be sam laid low or

christian blumenfeld or what these guys know, on the rivet for eight hours. Um, but the people who are coming in at 12, it's like, they're out there so many more, they're suffering longer. Right. It was impressive. Yeah.

So I don't know. Maybe you're going to. Not a chance. My, my team boss, you know, he was world champion. Yeah.

He won the world championships there. Like age group. Right. That was a while back. I think you should, you should design kits like age group. Right. That was a while back. I think you should design kits with Paul Smith. Yeah. He's your guy, right?

Yeah, he just loves cycling. I know. He raced when he was young, like, and the nicest person you'll ever meet. He's still, like, coming up with designs for cyclists too. Yeah. If there's one thing that you're kind of focused on and working on for this year like what is the hurdle you're still trying to overcome to unlock you know that next level of performance for yourself or like what comes up like this is

what i really need to work on this is my weakness that i'm focused on right now i don't know really like i look at like last, and I have a lot more things in place for next year than I did even last year. But, say, the Tour de France is a lot, lot, lot harder. Mm-hmm. I have to adapt to that. When they unveil the course, how does that impact? Do you have to tweak and sort of dial in your training yeah to customize it

not right now but yeah yeah and any things that you have to do like you know it's now at 39 that you didn't have to do when you were 26. i kind of continued to ride actually taking a block of time or something off season at the minute and uh when i was younger it would be five six weeks off the bike then you start again after i hit 30 it got short and short the amount of time i could kind of have off the bike without it taking a long time to get back yeah your base fitness is always there you can't let it go for too long. No. You feel a lot more lethargic, don't you? Is there any training that you do off the bike that's different?

Like what does the gym workout look like? The sort of dry land, other things? No, I probably do less off-bike work now than I used to. All my stuff is quite on-bike based. That's Vazzy's thing. A lot of my strength training. There's no gym or anything like that. The strength work's done on the bike. It's all on the bike. And when you're hitting peak training, how many hours a week are we looking at? 30, 35 hours. Some weeks you do 15 hours, but very high intensity, 15 hours, you know.

It varies. The workload would probably always be relatively the same. You might do just less hours with higher intensity. I don't really know. I just ride my bike. Yeah. I just ride my bike. I'm trying to make it more complicated than it is.

It's actually refreshing, honestly. I'm measuring wins, really. Well know? It's actually refreshing, honestly. I'm measuring wins, really. Well, for me, I want to win. Yeah. You know? Like, at the times when I have to try and get in the team to go to the Tour, then all that stuff kind of matters.

But it's for other people, you know? Yeah. If I know I can just be left to my own thing, own devices to be the best I can be to go to the tour. Yeah. I know what I need to do to win. It's basically getting fit enough. You know exactly what your power to weight ratio needs to be.

You know what the number, and you know how to get there. And you want to show up at the tour healthy, fresh, and be able to strike when the opportunity arises and efficiently ride through the rest of it so that you can basically be in the best position you possibly can for those sprint opportunities exactly yeah it's 21 days so and you can't control it there's so many variables right like you know everything you do on the first and second day, even though you will have a knock-on effect on the 18th and 19th day, you know. For instance, if it was a really flat first 10 days, you'd probably go in with a little bit more weight.

You'd lose a weight in the first 10 days before you got in the mountains, but you'd have a more powerful sprint. Whereas in the beginning, you need to be able to get to the sprints as well, so you'd change your body shape and that by different training. Dependent on the course. Yeah. I'm going too complicated now. I'm getting bored talking about it.

I'm going to let you go in a few minutes, man. Don't worry about it. Two more things I want to ask you. One is, was anything left out of the documentary that you wish had been in there? Or is there any aspect of who you are that you think gets misconstrued in the press or that people kind of don't understand about the real Mark?

I don't know, really. Don't... I don't know if it really matters if someone who doesn't know you, who's never met you who's never met you will never met you has a opinion on your personality mm-hmm like they could be right but most probably they're wrong about your personality you know for good or bad I don't know you know unless you know someone for good or bad, I don't know, you know. Unless you know someone,

someone I know or meet, if I make them happy, that's good. If I upset them, then that's a problem with me and I should sort that out, you know. If you're affecting somebody's life or how they are now, their day, then that's something you've got to address. My kids, they pretend to be their favourite sports person or pop star. That's when you understand your job as a cyclist really. It can be a kid or it can be even an adult. You know when you go out, don't say you haven't done it, you imagine that person you're seeing on TV. You've done it. For sure you've done it.

You might have been a kid, but you imagine you're someone. That's our job, you know? To be that person when you meet those people. Yeah. Oh, no, when you don't meet them. So it's not your personality. It's what you do. But when you meet them, then it's important to be the person you want them to believe you are.

If you're a good person, you bring them joy. If you're not, you affect them negatively. That's so interesting, though, because you're thinking about this not just in terms of how you perform as an athlete, but how you're perceived as a public person and the responsibility. Yeah, I'm not talking about how i'm perceived i'm talking about how i am you want you want to acquit yourself the way that yeah yeah i understand that you should do it for especially in the world now with with social media and the like that you

can manipulate who you are sure don't be perceived to be a good person be a good person you know like it's like you shouldn't even have to say that you know what i mean i have heard things about i met him myself met him 15 years ago he was a dick i was a dick i was i'm not a dick now. I realize I'm a dick. Right. Based on a 10-second encounter that you had where that person was probably really excited to meet you and you were in a bad mood or whatever. And now his whole view of who you are is based on that.

There's someone over at another team bus with another rider. You sign 100 autographs for those 100 people. When you're down to the last three who've been waiting there for two hours that person has finished getting that one from there and comes and waits there but you're done you have to go the bus is going it's not the bus has to go and you leave you're not being a dick right do you see what i mean no i understand yeah you can't fulfill that expectation all the time but there was times in the past when i could have signed 50 autographs and i didn't i wish i knew before i kids how much that means to sign autographs do you know kids is the reason i know but probably i was a dick for not realizing that before. Do you know?

Yeah. Do you know what I mean? Yeah, I understand. But it's also, you know, viewing that charitably, like, you know, you're probably younger, and my job is to race a bike. Like, I'll sign as many as I can, but I have other things to do, too. Like, I can't just be available.

I could make people perceive me as being nice, but it wasn't that i was just a dick yeah okay you know what i mean i have to be true for her i didn't really care right i get it you know but i don't see a dick sitting across from me right now i see i see like a pretty nice grounded dude and i guess like that leads to the final kind of question i want to ask you which is you know this podcast thing that i do if there is one overarching theme, it's really about growth and evolution and change. How can we become better people? How can we be more fulfilled, live more purposeful, meaningful lives, be a little bit more compassionate and self-actualized? kind of the changes that you've gone through and your own personal transformation and growth as not just an athlete, but as a human being in this kind of mental health

journey that you went on. Like I see somebody who's earned their transformation, like you've grown up in a lot of ways, right? And I just want to leave the audience with some thoughts about that process. If somebody's thinking about like, how can I kind of level up who I am as a person or how can I welcome a little bit more discomfort into my life to grow and challenge myself like as somebody who's on the other side of one chapter of that like what do you tell that person or what can you impart from what you've learned in the experiences that you've had yeah for me of course you can have negatives but find a solution to any negative or look for a solution to turn it into a positive. Like negativity drags you down.

And that's not to say just don't be negative. That's like saying before, don't be depressed. That's not, you know, if you can find solutions to whatever negative things going on it doesn't have to be negative thoughts you don't have to just just anything that there should never be a problem you should look at the solution the problem just i can't do it because it's a problem or i can't it's you might not be able to do it but it turns into a positive rather than a negative and it's a massive weight lifted like the glass is always half full it's not a half empty if you can look at life like that you can do what you want to do you know just take it from experience because i never thought like that before

and it's been an absolute game changer not harboring negativity finding a positive way to look at things that's a great way to go into this season man i'm happy for you dude you know it's it's cool it's it's really cool to you know you you're so clearly in in this really good place in your life like emotionally and it's one thing to be in that place and it's another thing to recognize it like you really recognize like this cool life that you have opportunities that you have thanks man i'm lucky like how i have an incredible wife that's still by me for everything and i realize what i have got an incredible beautiful family i get to do what i love as a job yeah there's nothing to yeah things are perfect you know that's a good way to end it man things are perfect

right thanks man that was great great. You're an inspiration. You know, I've been a fan for a long time, but now, you know, knowing you a little bit and getting to know you through the documentary, like I really appreciate, you know, the journey that you are on and what you're trying to do, man. Thank you.

I'm really excited for this season to come for you. Thanks, Rich. Thank you. Cheers. Thanks for doing this. Thank you. Peace. That's it for today.

Thank you for listening. I truly hope you enjoyed the conversation. To learn more about today's guest, including links and resources related to everything discussed today, visit the episode page at richroll.com,

where you can find the entire podcast archive, as well as podcast merch, my books, Finding Ultra, Voice of Change, and The Plant Power Way, as well as the Plant Power Meal Planner at meals.richroll.com. If you'd like to support the podcast, the easiest and most impactful thing you can do is to subscribe to the show on Apple podcasts on Spotify and on YouTube and leave a review and or comment. Supporting the sponsors who support the show is also important and appreciated and sharing the show or your favorite episode with friends or on social media is, of course, awesome and very helpful. And finally, for podcast updates, special offers on books, the meal planner, and other subjects, please subscribe to our newsletter, which you can find on the footer of any page

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Peace. Plants. Namaste. Thank you.