The Rich Roll Podcast - Mary Cain Is Fixing Female Sports

Episode Date: June 28, 2021

A cornerstone of this podcast is the power of sport to catalyze personal and societal change, cultivate confidence, and ultimately transform lives. But what happens when sport breaks you? If you’ve listened to my conversations with Lindsay Crouse and Lauren Fleshman, you know this story is all too familiar within athletic institutions—particularly Nike. Today’s guest is busting this paradigm. Meet Mary Cain. Established as the fastest girl in a generation by the time she reached high school, Mary was only 16 when she qualified for the Olympic Trials. At 17, she became the youngest American track and field athlete to make a world championship, competing in Moscow in the 1500 meters. Olympic glory seemed a foregone conclusion. Until that is, she joined Nike’s elite Oregon Project team run by infamous coach Alberto Salazar. And that’s when everything changed. Under severe pressure from Salazar and others to lose weight, her mental and physical health began to crumble. Ultimately, her body collapsed—and her running career behind it. Then she just disappeared. Until November of 2019 that is, when Mary broke her silence on what happened and why, bravely exposing the abusive system that derailed her in a New York Times Video OpEd entitled, “I Was the Fastest Girl in America, Until I joined Nike”. Here’s the thing about Mary: she’s emerged from this whole experience stronger—both as an athlete and as an advocate resolute on creating positive change for the next generation of female athletes. Now 25, she continues to run while serving as the New York Community Manager for the running apparel brand Tracksmith. In addition, this podcast announces her new role as CEO of Atalanta, a new NYC-based elite running team & community non-profit Mary founded with the dual mission of promoting running community, inclusivity & diversity, while also rewriting the rule book on professional women’s athletics. Today we get into all of it. FULL BLOG & SHOW NOTES: bit.ly/richroll611 YouTube: bit.ly/marycain611 I have a ton of respect for this young woman. Her story is powerful. It’s instructive. And I’m proud to help share it. Peace + Plants, Rich

I pulled my parents aside, like, really early on in this. You know, I was like, I have to tell you everything. And, like, we did the deep dive, and we went, like, this was, like, an hours-long conversation of me just sharing everything. And, you know, there's obviously a lot of tears. I can't even get through a podcast without crying. And at the end, like, my parents' question was like, what are you going to do? And I said, I don't think I'm ever going to be a pro runner again.

But I love this sport. And nobody's ever going to sign me. Nobody's ever going to follow me again. I said, but I can't live with myself if I don't share this and if I don't like help that one person and I remember like they were so scared for me and so proud of me at the same time and I think for them it was just just like it was almost like this happy proud and this like, you're doing something bigger than yourself. And again, we didn't think anybody would watch the video.

I thought, if anything, and I'm going to be very honest when I say this, having so many people watch that protected me in a way that I don't know do people understand. That's Mary Kane, and this is The Rich Roll Podcast. The Rich Roll Podcast. The Rich Roll Podcast. A recurring theme of this podcast is the power of sport to catalyze personal change, social change, while also cultivating confidence, and ultimately the power of sport to transform lives positively. But what happens when sport breaks you? Well, if you listen to my conversations with Lindsey Krauss and Lauren Fleshman, among others, then you know that this story is

unfortunately all too familiar. Today, we're going to dig deeper into this terrain and we're going to do it with Mary Kane, the Mary Kane, the track and field athlete who by high school had established herself as the fastest girl in a generation. The Mary Kane who at 17 became the youngest American ever to make a world championship track and field team. And the Mary Kane for whom Olympic glory seemed a foregone conclusion. Until that is, she joined Nike's elite Oregon project under Alberto Salazar. And within that culture, Mary's body ultimately collapsed, her running career behind it. And for a couple years thereafter, Mary just kind of disappeared, gone from the scene.

Until November of 2019, that is, when Mary broke her silence on what happened and why, telling her story by way of a video op-ed in the New York Times that was produced, not coincidentally, by Lindsey Krauss entitled, I Was the Fastest Girl in America Until I Joined Nike. That video went insanely viral. It resulted in a groundswell of global support for Mary. And it also opened the door to a broader ongoing conversation around the toxicity that pervades female athletics and the means by which we can construct a better future for women and girls in sport going forward. This one is a wild, emotional ride, and it's coming up in a few, but first. We're brought to you today by recovery.com. I've been in recovery for a long time. It's not hyperbolic to say that I owe everything good in my life to sobriety. And it all began with treatment and experience that I had that quite literally saved my life. And in the many years since, I've in turn helped many suffering addicts

and their loved ones find treatment. And with that, I know all too well just how confusing and how overwhelming and how challenging it can be to find the right place and the right level of care, especially because, unfortunately, not all treatment resources adhere to ethical practices. It's a real problem. A problem I'm now happy and proud to share has been solved by the people at recovery.com

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To find the best treatment option for you or a loved one, again, go to recovery.com. We're brought to you today by recovery.com. I've been in recovery for a long time. It's not hyperbolic to say that I owe everything good in my life to sobriety. And it all began with treatment and experience that I had that quite literally saved my life. And in the many years since, I've in turn helped many suffering addicts and their loved ones find treatment. And with that, I know all too well just how confusing and how overwhelming and how challenging it can be to find the right place and the right level of care. Especially because, unfortunately, not all treatment resources adhere to ethical practices. It's a real problem, a problem I'm now happy and proud to share has been solved by the people at

recovery.com, who created an online support portal designed to guide, to support, and empower you to find the ideal level of care tailored to your personal needs. They've partnered with the best global behavioral health providers to cover the full spectrum of behavioral health disorders, including substance use disorders, depression, anxiety, eating disorders, gambling addictions, and more. Navigating their site is simple. Search by insurance coverage, location, treatment type, you name it. Plus, you can read reviews from former patients to help you decide. Whether you're a busy exec, a parent of a struggling teen, or battling addiction yourself, I feel you.

I empathize with you. I really do. And they have treatment options for you. Life in recovery is wonderful, and recovery.com is your partner in starting that journey. When you or a loved one need help, go to recovery.com and take the first step towards recovery. To find the best treatment option for you or a loved one, again, go to recovery.com. Okay, Mary Kane. So here's the thing about Mary, something about Mary, right?

The thing about Mary is that she's actually really emerged from this whole kerfuffle, this whole experience stronger as an athlete, but also perhaps most importantly, as an advocate quite resolute on creating positive change. She's 25 now. She continues to run, but at the same time, she also serves as the New York community manager for the running apparel brand Tracksmith, her key sponsor. And she also just announced the launch of Atalanta, this brand new New York City-based elite running team and community nonprofit.

It's an endeavor that she leads as CEO that has this beautiful dual mission of first promoting running community, inclusivity, and diversity, while also at the same time, rewriting the business model for and the rule book on professional women's athletics. Today, we get into all of it.

Her story is powerful. It's instructive. I'm very proud to help share it. The only thing missing, I should point out, was our mutual BFF, Alexi Pappas. Perhaps there is a round table in the future. I'll work on that. But in the meantime, here we go.

This is me and Mary Kane. So nice to meet you. Sorry, you got the wrong address. Got a little bit lost, but you're here. I'm here. I've been waiting for this for a long time. I've been texting all our mutual friends, telling them how excited I am to meet you. So thanks for doing this. I'm here. I've been waiting for this for a long time. I've been texting all our mutual friends, telling them how excited I am to meet you.

So thanks for doing this. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I'm just excited to be able to travel to LA. Like this has been such a fun little long weekend. Is it your first time traveling since the whole shebang? About a month ago, I had traveled to Park City and that had been one of those trips that were canceled and you had to book within a year.

And all of a sudden April was rolling around and we're like, I guess we're still going. So that was my first time on a plane. So this was my second. Right, right, right. What was the vibe? I don't know. I felt like it was good in that like,

everybody's wearing their masks. Everybody seemed to be taking all the rules seriously. And, you know, I was on a Delta flight. So we were like as spaced as we almost could be. So yeah, I found if anything, it like felt pretty safe and, you know, that adds to the excitement maybe. And what's the vibe in New York? Does it feel like it's coming back or this whole idea that New York city is dead? New York city is not dead. Oh man, if you guys follow the real estate market in New York City.

It's crazy, right? Everybody's throwing bananas. I think New York's gonna have this crazy renaissance. Oh, 100%. Not right away, but in the next year. Mary Wittenberg is like, this is like the 1970s and we're gonna have this like big renaissance of like cultural influence now again.

And just 50 years later, where you go through a really tough time and it resurges. And I think you see that even in the recent announcements about like you don't have to wear masks outside anymore and like certain things shifting, you all of a sudden feel this energy of like, oh, I wanna come back. And I think even people who left

are starting to get like a little antsy of like, what am I gonna miss out on? Maybe I I wanna come back. And I think even people who left are starting to get like a little antsy of like, what am I gonna miss out on? Maybe I need to come back. Well, when summer hits and you get those nice warm nights in New York, I think it's gonna be like the summer of love. Oh yeah, I mean, I'm right near Central Park too. So I probably have like at times a skewed view

of like how many people are out and about. But gosh, if I go for my evening run and it's like 60 degrees, I can barely get around the reservoir some days because you're just like, everybody wants to be out right now. Right. It's cool.

It's exciting. And it's fun even from the running perspective of like, yes, you have that moment where you're hurtling a kid in Central Park and you're like, this maybe could have been better. But in general, like the more people are out, the more energy that is, and then you feed off of it. Yeah, you feel it, you feel it.

You get that like surge of vitality that only New York can deliver. Yes, absolutely. Cause it's just so dense and so diverse. And there's so many people like kind of following their own dreams and passions. And as a result, I just feel like there's inspiration everywhere you turn. Yeah, yeah.

You don't get that here. That's why I feel like I have to visit like a couple of times a year to like get that feeling and then come back like renewed and exhausted. Yeah, yeah, fair. I mean, the thing I will say, and I'm, you know, like born and raised in the New York City area.

I grew up in the suburbs right outside of the city. And so I've probably always had like a bit of a biased view, but nowhere else in the country is a city. Like we are the only place that is like truly an urban environment. There's no sprawl in the same way. Like we have suburbs, but like the actual density of like each block is just like, you know, like maybe Chicago could hold their own, but sometimes even like my friends and coworkers in Boston

will be like kind of comparing Boston to New York. And I'm like, oh, that's cute. You're a small town. Well, the thing about, I mean, New York City is my favorite place to go running. Like even though I love the trails and the nature and all of that, like when you go running in New York City,

every time you go outside your door, it's an adventure and you're gonna see all kinds of stuff. And sometimes I just, I love the park. I like, you know, I like Riverside. I like all the typical places that you run, but sometimes I like to just run the streets and not have any agenda about which way I'm gonna turn and just based on the lights or whatever

and just go down random streets and just take it all in. And there's so much stimuli everywhere you look that you lose track of like how long you've been running. And I don't know, I just, I love it. Oh, I completely agree. I've always said that New York City is the best like running city in the world. And when I use the word city there,

I'll give other places a chance to claim city head. That's so kind of you. You provincial New Yorker. I have to be generous. Now you're getting snobby. Careful. Yeah, exactly. But I think for me, it's like one,

the fact that it's one of the only places in the world where there's such a vibrant amateur setup, where there's true teams and there's competitions weekly. And we have New York Roadrunners there who can help put on just like races week after week after week. And I think since there's such a like organized ability to participate in sports post-collegiately, particularly running, it just creates this dynamic too, where like you never are in Central Park alone. Like it doesn't matter what time it is, if it's 5 a.m.,

I'm shocked by the number of people who will be out like in giant groups having way too much fun, even though it's 5 a.m. And I'm not normally a 5 a.m. runner, but the times that has happened, I'm like really, I think carried by that energy. The running culture is just interwoven with the urban culture of New York.

And it's crazy when you go into the park and you see people running and you're, and it's like, wow, these are like real runner. Like people, you're like, that guy's legit. Yes. Some dude and you're like, he, I don't know what he's training for, but like whoever's racing against that guy,

I feel sorry for, you know? Like true elites everywhere you go. And you know, everybody else at the same time, like it's just, it's kind of a cool, beautiful thing. Yeah, and I think that's what's exciting about New York too, where it spans like kind of from the highest end professionals to like people who are just starting running. And I don't feel there's almost this setup

where it's like in order to join a team, you have to have had like X, Y, and Z standards. If anything, it's like so many of the groups are catering more to this like community environment and just being inclusive and like welcoming people who maybe this is their first time ever stepping out to go for a run. And to me, that's just important because I think elsewhere it can become

maybe more intimidating to join a team because like you only run if you're this quote unquote runner, which I hate when people say that. I'm like, if you run, you're a runner. Like you don't, there's no threshold. I'm not asking for your splits. And I think in New York, we kind of have that mindset of like, if you run, you're a runner. Like you don't, there's no threshold. I'm not asking for your splits. And I think in New York, we kind of have that mindset

of like, if you run, you're a runner and elsewhere can get a little bit more, maybe people kind of hedge. And they're like, ah, maybe not good enough to be on that team. They seem pretty serious. So I'm not gonna, you know, That intimidation, right?

Well spoken like a true community manager. What's your title at Tracksmith? Something like that? Like vice president of community or something? Yeah, I'm the New York City community manager. That's so funny, right? You have a job title. I know.

I actually, well, I'm, it's kind of crazy. I have like three job titles now. New York City community manager for Tracksmith. I'm a virtual coach specialist for New York Roadrunners where I work part-time. And now I'm CEO of an organization I'm starting, Atalanta New York. Atalanta, we're gonna talk about that.

Before we do that though, I went running with our mutual BFF, Alexi Pappas the other day. And it's funny, like I didn't really think about whether you guys were friends or not. I guess I just assumed, oh yeah, they must know each other, but I didn't realize the depth of your friendship

and how far back it goes until I read that beautiful Runner's World article, which is amazing. Everybody should check that out. I'll link it up in the show notes. You guys go way back. And we're of course chatting and she's telling me about her movie

and all kinds of stuff. And then, but she knew that you were coming on the show, which I was like, oh, cool, you know that? And she's just telling me a little bit. I was like, what should I ask her? What should we talk about? And she was like, well, everybody, you know, obviously wants to know about the thing, right?

Which we're gonna have to talk about because this isn't an exclusively running oriented podcast. So there's gonna be people Everybody obviously wants to know about the thing, right? Which we're gonna have to talk about because this isn't an exclusively running oriented podcast. So there's gonna be people who don't know that story. But also this sense of you not wanting to, like understanding people wanna hear that story, but not wanting to dwell on the past and really being more focused on all the great things

that you're doing now that you're doing so well. And I was like, cool. And after our run, then Alexi texted me cause she had additional thoughts. Of course she always does. Right, of course. And she said, Mary's doing great, but there's always grieving to do.

And I think she's doing a phenomenal job of observing and allowing that grief while also growing up and crafting a life she wants before her own eyes. So it's both. She's great and she knows she has all that inside. That's amazing. Alexi just has a way with words that I feel the number of times after we've had like a 90 minute conversation over the phone and we say our goodbyes, like five minutes later, she ends up sending a paragraph that just like literally makes me tear up about like how much

our friendship means to her or just like some inspirational thing based on like a different topic that we had talked about over the course of the conversation. And I always feel my reply is probably not as eloquent. She was going's, I mean, listen, you know, she was gonna go get her PhD in poetry, you know, and her book, I mean, not everybody can write a book like that. It's quite something. It was beautiful.

I mean, I was one of the first people who got to read it. And I think I finished it in like two days. And I just the whole time would be texting her stuff. And some of the stories, even though we are very good friends, I didn't know. And a lot of it was like on that personal level for her where many people who were very close to her didn't have that full picture.

And being able to like get to be one of the first people to see that and experience that and then talk to her about it felt very special. And conversely, she was not aware of all the things that you were going through at the time. It's that thing where you're in that pain and you silo yourself off even from your closest friends. Cause you guys were close back then,

but neither of you were really communicating with each other on that deeper level about what you were enduring privately. Yeah, absolutely. And I think in many ways, the reason we are both very vocal now about mental health, depression, and the need to talk about it and the need to seek help and lean on other people

is because we reflect on our own journeys, which have shockingly overlapped. Like even on the year to year where it's like, wow, 2016, what happened that year? And as you kind of look, I think as we look back, there's this ability to see, maybe if we could have, should have, would have and leaned on each other,

things would have gone a little differently. And that's not to say you can talk yourself out of depression. That's not to say you can talk yourself out of a mental health struggle, but at least being able to know somebody else is going through it and maybe working together to find the resources to get us help,

could have saved us both sooner. And knowing that makes me always think, how can I help somebody else take that step earlier? Yeah. Well, I think Alexi writing her book and you sharing your story in the way that you have been doing is, you know, the path forward

because that gives other people the comfort and the, you know, empowerment required to share something that, you know, privately they feel like maybe they can't, right? I know you're a big Brene Brown fan. Yes. And she's all about that. Like, can you summon the courage to be vulnerable on that level?

Yeah, and I think, for me, it's always come back to, and I just say this in that as honest way as I can, that for me, it always was like, yes, this is going to help me in my own healing journey completely. If I share, then it's kind of like putting, sometimes putting words out there can like create truth in a way that thoughts can't quite do. And it's the same reason why like during a workout, sometimes you have to like verbalize, I got this, just like feel that extra energy. And so that kind of maybe selfish reason is part of the reason I shared my story. But so much more so it was, it's scary to realize that so many mental health injuries as Alexi would call them, are something that even if you have it, you can't recognize in the same way. And I think physical injuries, especially as runners, we can relate to this.

Like who hasn't run through an injury for like two weeks longer than they should have because they convinced themselves it was something else or something they could work through or et cetera, et cetera. But issues that relate to mental health, I feel like since you can't physically see it, since you can't get that MRI diagnosis, and even since it's harder to find medical professionals who are always going to really know how to help you as an individual, I think it's just harder to sometimes recognize what you're actually going through. I think it's just harder to sometimes recognize what you're actually going through.

And so the big reason that I came forward and I know the big reason that Alexi is sharing her story is because if it can help one other person put a name to what their experience is, then the ability for them to seek help is so much higher. Yeah. And I know for me personally, like I always kind of explained

to people that I knew in 2016 that I had like forms of disordered eating, but I didn't know why. I didn't know what that kind of deeper, darker depression was underneath that was predisposing me to have these tendencies. And it wasn't until I was able to actually like realize that emotional abuse by the hands of a coach was what was like always holding me back from like truly both getting the help that I needed, but also knowing how to get the help that I needed. It just made all those years before not pointless, but not as successful as it could have been. Yeah, yeah. Fruitful and positive and all those, you know,

like great things. And instead it wasn't until 2019, like really around the time that I was sharing the story, that I was suddenly able to like really get help. Well, you can point, like really get help? Well, you can point, you can kind of identify a couple primary reasons for that. I mean, first of all, there was,

of course there are women who have spoken publicly about reds and disordered eating and sport and all the like, but perhaps not on the scale with which your story seemed to connect. I mean, it was so crazy viral when the video was published and I wanna talk about that. But at the same time, from a systemic point of view,

you were on this team that, you know, on paper looked like everything was dialed in and all the support that any professional athlete at the elite level would ever need to succeed, including quote unquote, you know, performance psychologists and nutritionists that turned out like weren't that at all, right? So you can't really, you know, be too hard on yourself

because being as young as you were and not knowing, you know, not being able to point to examples out in the world that would help you kind of map out where you were at and not having the internal support and the kind of situation, the dynamic that was at play at the Oregon project at the time, like you were kind of left to fend for yourself

with all of this. Yeah, and I think now today, as I sit here, I totally recognize that. And I think the tough thing is, and I think why in so many ways, the tough thing is, and I think why in so many ways the video went more viral than I had expected, is because logically that's true, but emotionally it can take years for somebody to recognize that they're not at fault. And I think a lot of that is just societally, we have almost created this like

horrible and toxic perspective that all mental health is somehow a personal failing. And it kind of goes back to that Calvinistic, like, you know, where you are is because of like, you know, who you are in a way. And I hate that thinking and it's horrible. But I think that really kind of filters into our society at large. And as a result, what's really difficult for I think a lot of young people is that when you're in these really like toxic

and horrible and abusive situations, as you're breaking down, you start to see this quote unquote truth in what they're saying. Because you are like, yeah, I am super emotional. I'm crying every single day. Like maybe I am the problem because I'm the one crying or like, yes, you know, I'm the one that they're telling is overweight. So like, that must be something I'm doing wrong. And I think it's so easy to get therefore into

this really toxic self-blame perspective. And that's not to say there are things I look back and I'm like, oh, maybe like, had I just known to be more confident or do this. You always kick yourself in some ways, but I think I've made peace with my past in a way that being able to share publicly and almost develop this relationship with thousands

and millions of people who were able to watch that and kind of see themselves in my story is both really tragic, but also beautiful in that healing process of knowing you're not alone. Right, right. We should probably sort of establish the terrain that we're talking about for people

that are watching or listening who aren't familiar with the trajectory of your story and how it became like a viral moment. So why don't we just spend a few minutes talking about your background. So you grow up outside of New York City, Bronxville, you run in high school, you're crushing it, you're breaking all these like high school records.

It's absolutely insane, like winning high school titles. And you essentially go pro right out of high school and start working with Alberto Salazar. You move to Portland when you're like 17, 16. Yeah. And that's where things start to get a little bit janky, right? So talk a little bit about the lead up to moving to Portland

and kind of the early days of working with Alberto and at the Nike Oregon project. Yeah, so I first met him the beginning of my junior year and I still lived in New York. I was still a high school junior. And we had this long distance relationship my junior and senior year, during which I ended up qualifying

for the world championships at the end of my junior year, signing a professional contract with Nike that my fall senior year, and then going on to have like a really incredible senior year season. And he's coaching you like remotely at that point. Yeah. And like there are times

where maybe we were at the same meet together or I travel out to like that summer that I competed on the world stage. I traveled out and was kind of like with their team for maybe like three or four weeks or something. But it was always these kind of like little moments. And it was always so much fun, right? Because you have your coach on the ground with me in New York, John Henwood, who was kind of that buffer.

I had my parents there who were always that kind of buffer between me and the team. But everything sounded great. And everything was going great in high school. I was working with this, now I have to say quote unquote sports psychologist, you know, like there was more positivity and everything was kind of like, oh, this is fun. And then I ended up after my indoor season senior year, developing a stress reaction in my shin. And that was kind of the moment that things changed. And I think truthfully, and just like at least how I kind of look back on it, I think having a little bit of time off, my body started to develop like a little bit, right?

Nothing like, you know, I didn't all of a sudden gain like 10 pounds or anything like that. It wasn't something you could even necessarily visually see. But physically I could tell there was some sort of changes starting to happen because I'm all of a sudden at, you know, the end of that high school, you know, going into college years,

this is when a lot of women start to develop. And so all of a sudden weight started to become a conversation in a way that going into college years, this is when a lot of women start to develop. And so all of a sudden weight started to become a conversation in a way that in the past it hadn't really been. And it would kind of start off small of being like, oh, you're cross-training, you have to be more conscientious of your weight. And it just kept building and building and building.

So by the time I was kind of in full swing of the outdoor season, I ended up coming in second at the US Championships, ran a 406 and was feeling really good and really positive. But I kept being told that I couldn't go to Europe that year to race because I wasn't fit enough. From Alberto. Yes. And it was like this kind of like, you're not fit, you're not fit, you're not fit. And I didn't like, I kind of was like, I came in second at the US Champ. There's one person maybe a little bit more fit than me. Literally, yes.

And so I just didn't really get it. And I ended up racing at the World Junior Championships. And the day before the race, I was told to do two 100 meters all out. And I was told to break 13 seconds for the 100. And I ended up running 12.5 for both of them. So I didn't think anything of it. Besides the fact that it's kind of weird to like do all out sprints the day before a race. But after the race, Alberto kind of that week,

I was like, hey, I'm world junior champion. I'm second at USA is like, let's dive in. Like, let's go to Europe. Let's do what we did last year. And that was when it finally became clear that this fitness was about weight. And it was because he told me that the reason he had me do those hundreds the day before is that he had me do those hundreds the day before

is that he wanted to have the talk the day before the race that I was too heavy. And he wanted me to do those hundreds because he didn't think I would be physically capable of breaking 13 because he thought I was too big to do it. But then you go 12.5 and he didn't eat his lunch after that? No, he still told me like after the race that even though I did that, it's clear I'm not skinny enough to travel. So of course, I'm just graduated high school, literally moved out to Oregon right after winning world juniors. And rather than traveling to Europe, we decide I'm going to stay in Portland over the summer

and I'm going to get fit, aka lose weight. And there was kind of this idea that if I lost one pound per week, I could get down to 113 pounds to race at fifth ave and therefore I might be competitive. And granted, again, I came in second at USA. So I don't, in retrospect, I should have just thought, what the heck? But you know, this is hypothetically

the best coach in the world. Sure. And how, I mean, we're gonna dive deeper into the whole weight thing, but on some level, like when you, when you tell that story, it almost feels like a way in which he can exert greater control. Like, is it a control issue as much as it is a weight issue? Because as long as he can Lord that over you, then he can kind of be the puppeteer. Yeah, absolutely. And I think we recognize that now in retrospect

with other kind of behaviors that happened. Like when I was in high school, he communicated and all the team communicated a lot with my parents, right? To be like, after a good workout, there would be this like, wow, Mary did awesome. So cool, congrats. And it felt like this really kind of like family team dynamic and everything's just so positive. As soon as I went out to Portland, like all

communication with my parents stopped. And what happened was that I, after World Juniors as the like dedicated athlete that I was who, yes, again, in retrospect, I was racing at this really high level. But to me, I'm, you know, I'd been top 10 in the world. Like I'm trying to be a world champion. You know, that's kind of like my end game. So when somebody is telling me you're not fit enough, well, yeah, I was second at USAs. Maybe that's top 20 in the world and I'm constantly pushing. So I did what I was told and I lost, you know,

probably like six to seven pounds. Cause I think I was about 120 at the time, like scaled down to 113. And that was when disordered eating started. And how was your performance that year? Oh, it ended up equal. Like, I mean, now I look back and I'm like, it wasn't that bad,

but it was horrible compared to the years before. But what happened was I, after fifth ave, I didn't race that well. I came in eighth. I was, and I didn't look good. My parents saw me because we were back in New York and truthfully, they had felt a little like distanced from me and from the program. And it was kind of this weird last like two months of being a little bit ghosted. And my mom saw me and

was just like, you don't look good. You look pale, like dark circles under your eyes. What's kind of going on? And I, you know, admitted that like, I've been really working to lose weight. Like I've been told I, you know, was too heavy to travel. And my parents naturally got really upset about that because they're like, what are you even talking about? You raced great.

Like, why is that a conversation? And a phone call was had with the, you know, I'll call him high performance coach on the team. Right. This person sort of held himself out to be a psychologist, but it turns out was not indeed a psychologist. Yes, exactly. And I thought he was a medical professional and therefore like treated our conversations as such. But I afterwards got in big trouble for telling my parents about like my struggles with weights and everything. And I got this big lecture, which continued throughout that year, where if I ever

kind of like maybe told my parents something that I was uncomfortable with, or whether it was about taking birth control or an inhaler or thyroid medication or whatever it was, if I told them that, then I would get yelled at because I had to be an adult, I had to be a professional, you can't go crying to your parents, you know, all this sort of stuff. And, you know, as an 18 year old who's at college, you know, like most freshmen. Yeah, that's crazy.

I mean, you're 18 years old, that's a crazy control thing, right? You're 18 years old, how dare you tell your parents what's going on in your life? Yeah. And what's going on in your life? And what's interesting about that is the fact that Salazar's defense or rebuttal in the wake of, you know, you coming out and sharing your story is that he's claiming

that he was in constant communion with your parents and talking to them about weight stuff. Your dad's a doctor, right? So is that just not true? No. It sounds like from your point of view, that didn't happen at all. So when I was in high school, again, they talked a lot.

Like there was a lot of this like back and forth, like, you know, emailing, calling, like super positive, right? I move out to Portland, all of that ends. And the only time my parents are hearing anything is if it's coming from me, I then get yelled at for telling them anything. And then if they call and have this conversation, it's kind of like, I'm a professional coach.

I know what I'm doing. And I think one thing about this whole situation as well is my dad is a doctor, but if you meet any good doctor, right? If something's not their area of expertise, they're always going to be like, no, go to somebody who like is an OBGYN, is an orthopedist, et cetera, et cetera. And I think, you know, there kind of was this feeling of like, this is Nike. This is a team that has like a multimillion dollar budget is paying people high amounts of money is kind of

presenting themselves as this incredibly professional organization, like one of a kind situation. And if, you know, they're being told that I'm working with somebody for my mental health and my nutrition and all that sort of stuff, like they're going to assume that's true. Right. And then it's going gonna be somebody who's really good. Exactly, yeah. But this guy, this sports psychologist, Darren Treasure, that was his name. I read, I think this was in Chris Chavez's SI piece,

that anything that any of the athletes shared with that guy just ended up back with Alberto. Like there was this kind of expectation of privacy that in fact was not private at all. Like it all funneled back to Salazar. Again, him being a puppeteer and controlling the flow of information between everybody. Yes.

And I came up in a household where there was a doctor and somebody who really prided themselves on being a good doctor and being somebody who never overstepped the rules or things like patient-client privilege is incredibly important. And so when you almost are exposed to that at a young age and then you're told somebody's a sports psychologist. I know what that means. And all the other athletes know what that mean. And so if they're telling something personal or private, they're going to assume that it's not gonna be told to somebody else, let alone their like competitor teammate or their coach who maybe they're talking about.

And over time, I really, I think the thing I regret the most is that there were moments where I realized what was happening in that, you know, another athlete would be discussed with me who I knew he worked with and in a way that was incredibly negative. But rather than take that moment and stepping back and saying, hey, this is inappropriate. He's hypothetically breaking laws if he's truly a sports psychologist. What is he doing to me? Instead, in those moments, I was just like, I'm glad he's not talking about me or my weight or something mean about me. Yeah. I think the thing that people don't get or might miss in trying to understand this dynamic is that when you're an athlete at the highest level and

you're on this elite team, there's a couple of things at play. One of which is everybody's trying to covet favor with the coach. Like everybody wants to be the favorite. You hear, you know, Kara Goucher has spoken about this with Alberto, like, and when you're in that catbird seat and you are the favorite, it doesn't matter what the coach is saying about the other athletes, because you're, you're going to protect that. And just because you're all on the same team, there isn't the esprit de corps that you would suspect because, because everybody's vying for a limited number of Olympic slots, like these, these may be your teammates and you're training with them every day. And on some level, some surface level, you're mutually supportive,

but ultimately like they're your competitors also. So there's a cutthroat aspect of this. So it's working at cross purposes with the kind of unity that you would want with the people you're showing up to train with every day. Yeah, absolutely. And I think that's why, you're showing up to train with every day. Yeah, absolutely. And I think that's why, you know, personally, I've never named other athletes, like even in stories that I've told in which I'm referring to another teammate of mine doing something negative or being in the room or et cetera. I don't name them because like personally, although I've never, minus a couple of individuals, I've never gotten really like personally, although I've never, minus a couple of individuals, I've never gotten really like a, hey, I heard you, I'm sorry moment. Like I don't need that from them. And even though I

think their behavior was bad and poor and the inability for people to stand up after the fact and say like, yes, that was wrong is something that I'm always gonna wonder. Like, you know, it takes a lot of bravery to do that. And it takes a lot of vulnerability to do that. But it's my maybe ability to somewhat sympathize is the reason that I don't, I like, I almost try to keep the athletes

as out of this as I can. Yeah, I mean, I think, and listen, we should point out that in the wake of you sharing your story with the New York Times, like so many people came out to support you and all these people that were on your team have come out of the woodwork to, you know, say nice things about you and also express their regret

at not having been kind of more aware or supportive in the moment. Yeah, and I think that's why it's like both Cam Levins and Dathan Ritzenhine were my two athletes at the time who have like since reached out to me and publicly said they witnessed or at least in the case of Cam, like witnessed some of this behavior

is something that like, I always cry when I talk about that. Because I think, again, like for so many years, when you think it's your fault, having at least one person say they thought. Yeah. That's always the thing that kills me. And I think it's just because I know how brave it is to say I messed up. I know how brave it is to say, I wish I did something different. And like, there are people I wish that I saved over the years.

And so to have somebody come out and say that really means a lot. So I always- Especially, you know, when, you know, if and when they're still part of the Nike family, like, you know, there's a lot at stake. Like it's risky to do that. And so, you know, yeah,

that is something to be appreciated and it's very cool. And in terms of you thinking perhaps, some of these situations alluded your gaze, like you're now in this incredible situation where you can be this voice for change. And I know you've taken that mantle seriously and we're gonna get into that.

But when I think about Alexi, like I see somebody who really appreciates and understands the power of mentorship. Like she's always seeking out mentors and she understands her responsibility and role as a mentor. And on some level, like that's part of your friendship dynamic because she's, you know, a little bit further down the path and all of that. And now, you know, because of your relationship with Alexi

and what you've gone through, I feel like you really get that as well. A hundred percent. And I think, you know, for me as a very young athlete, you know, one thing that's always a little awkward and I'm sure everybody who's ever been kind of on that, for lack of a better word, phenom level, you kind of expect everybody to like welcome you with open arms because you're like, I'm 12. Like, this is fun. Everybody's gonna be my friend. And the truth is like, you're often met with a lot of negativity, especially within like the competitive space.

And I get it. Like if you're a 30 year old competitor, like you don't really want this 18 year old beating you. But I think kind of having felt like I was alone for so long in sport and was able to find a friendship like Alexi's, like she was one of the first people who really took me under their wing and shared advice and shared stories and who didn't just kind of look at me as purely a competitor or purely somebody to use for pacing or whatever. And as a result, now I'm very cognizant of like the younger generation and the people who

are coming up and, you know, after a race, like they're going to be the first people I'd beeline over to so that I can invite them to dinner or hang out with, or just make them feel like they were a part of the event in a way that matters. And it's sad because even to this day, I mean, I haven't been to too many races. There've been a lot of injuries over the years, but the ones that I am, it's like, you know, I'll go over to somebody, I'm like, why is nobody else doing this too? And I think it's because sport in so many ways has been,

at least on the professional side, the number of times I'll listen to an interview and an athlete will say like, well, like, you know, sport is selfish. And I'm like, I think that's a cop out. I think it's selfish if you want it to be selfish. I think if you, you know, wanna kind of like not give back in some way,

then you can choose not to. But if you wanna have a purpose kind of during your career and do something during it, there's always gonna be opportunity too. Yeah. Well, I think people are wired in different ways. There are certain competitors who feel like that's the only path to greatness is if they're completely focused on themselves. Any athlete who's excelled with longevity though, realizes that that's an unsustainable fuel source and ultimately leads to early retirement or burnout. And the true greats at some point,

even if they had that mindset earlier, realize that when you're living, when you broaden the aperture on your life, that actually your performance gets better. I mean, Shalane talks about that quite a bit as well. Like when she's having kids and all of that and trying to judge, you think, or Carrie Walsh Jennings, right? She's like, you know, married with kids and all of that and trying to judge, you think, or Kerry Welsh Jennings, right?

She's like, you know, married with kids and trying to juggle that and saying, oh, it actually helps me, it makes me a better competitor. But I think at the same time, there's a systemic misalignment of incentives in that the sponsorship ecosystem is set up to financially reward you for your performance, right? And this is something you're very active in upending,

but it's not just, hey, there's only a few slots to make the world championship team or the Olympic team. It's that my bank account is contingent upon me beating you. And if I get beat by you, my shoe sponsor may not renew my contract. So you're living event to event and kind of in fear of trying to protect your ability to put food on the table. And so that's gonna create a negative environment in terms of how the athletes are interacting

with each other. Absolutely. And it's going to create the win at all costs culture and, you know, honestly predispose people to cheat. And it's because like, I get it. If that's your only financial opportunity and it's all about competition, you know, And I think the unfortunate thing too is like, who gets a contract versus who doesn't? Yes, it's all about performance. But if you look the right way, maybe we're going to knock you a couple extra dollars or if we just like the way you interview, there's no real metric even. And when you look at the disparity between different people's contracts,

because everything is NDA'd. And so nobody, if you're in the sports world- Yeah, there's no transparency about what they, so the athletes don't know who's getting what. Exactly. And like, some people might like be open and share with others. And other times it's very tight lipped. And the problem And like, you know, some people might like be open and share with others and other times

it's very tight lipped. And, you know, the problem is like, you'll know one person's making below minimum wage to compete at really the highest level and somebody else is doing incredibly well. There's, you know, and even the incredibly well side, it's just, there's not a lot of money in track and field. And I think, you know, when athletes aren't able to really negotiate for themselves, when they're not even aware of like, what's a good price to be negotiating, it leaves just so much agency out of the hands of the athletes. I feel like the sponsorship approach that a lot of these brands have historically taken is really based on antiquated metrics.

Like the idea like, oh, you have to make this team and go to these are the events you're gonna show up at. And if you get first, you get this, second, third, all of that, and that is dictating how much money you make, really doesn't make sense, especially in a social media world. Like what is the purpose of a company sponsoring an athlete? It's to engender goodwill in the brand

and hopefully encourage people out in the world to purchase their products. Well, how do you do that? Well, winning races is just one way, but in an era where athletes are shouldering the responsibility of communicating directly with audiences and developing their own trust with those people, it's not like where you stand

on the podium no longer is really the most important thing. It's like, who do people like? Who do people trust? That could be somebody who's not going, making any of these meets or these competitions and somebody who no one's ever heard of that has no audience and no interest in communicating with the public in any way and wins, I don't know, the steeplechase

or something like that in some European race, is that moving the needle in terms of the brand? So it just doesn't, it needs to be completely rethought bottom to top. And that's why I love kind of this relationship that you have with Tracksmith. You're just basically a salaried employee. And they're like, we love you, go do your thing

and spread the love of running and yeah, go do some races. But where you end up in those races really is not relevant to your paycheck. Yeah, no, not at all. And if anything, I think they value my performance as an employee more than an athlete. I think if I was dropping the ball and, you know, missing all of my, you know, assignments, I think we'd have a real talking to even if I made the Olympic team tomorrow. And I think that's incredibly important because it's a way to value athletes as more than

just products. It's a way for me to develop a career skill that long-term is transferable into the open market because as much as I love running and as much as we all love sport, everybody has a point where they're going to have to move on to their next career. And the truth is no runner is really getting set up for life based on their salary. It's not like we're in a professional sports league where if you make it to 40, like you're retiring in a really great financial spot.

Right. And as a result, there's kind of this inability for most people in these traditional contracts to develop those career skills in a way that's as supportive as a relationship like Tracksmith and I have where my training, my dreams as an athlete are like beyond supportive. And if one day I'm not dialing in until 1030, cause I had a little bit more of an important workout in the morning. So as a result, I'm going to be sending some emails at 7 p.m. That's totally understood. And that's like encouraged, that's

accepted. And it's not something that I almost have to like, you know, combine two incompatible worlds. And I think a lot of other athletes who've had to kind of dive into the workforce while sustaining their careers for that financial support. It can be harder if you're just in a traditional company that maybe doesn't understand why you have to travel like X amount of times to go to meets and kind of random parts of the country where they're like. Yeah, it's expensive. Yeah.

Yeah, but if you look at other different kinds of sports and certain legacy brands, like in the climbing world, in the mountaineering world, you look at Solomon, North Face, and athletes like Rebecca Rush and Hilary Nelson, Conrad Anker, Alex Honnold, Ricky Gates, Killian Jornet. Like these brands are on board with these athletes for their life.

It's like, go be awesome. Yep. You know, just go out and do cool stuff and we're here to support you. And people love those brands as a result. Like it just seems better. Obviously, look, you know, Killian and Ricky, they do interesting different types of things in running. It's not track and field where there's a stopwatch and it's really about metrics.

But I think there's something to be learned from those brands who have been doing it for a very long time. And now other sports are trying to catch up to that. I mean, surfing, it's the same thing with surfers and all the kind of surf brands. Absolutely. And I think one thing a lot of these sports have in common

is that they're all lifestyle sports in that a lot of the kind of like traditional professional sports that we think of in the United States, at least like football, basketball. Yes, you can continue doing them post-collegiately, but there's like this almost understanding that like you're not going to be in the NFL or there's kind of this separation where like I probably can't play again unless we're doing like a pickup game or I like really assemble 20 people. It's probably harder to join a league. Like it's a lot

of, you know, it almost takes a lot of scrappiness and ingenuity to like make sure you can keep playing. But sports like surfing, rock climbing, running, there's no barrier. There's no, hey, I need to find six guys to play with. And even then we need to find another six guys to play against, you can just lace up, you know, $80 pairs of shoes and go for a run. And I think kind of having that opportunity to really touch so many more people makes the idea of this, the way we're kind of talking about these, you know, I'll umbrella them into these Olympic sports, really should lean more towards that. How are you talking to that everyday athlete? Because there's so many more of them out there. Yeah. And it's not to say that you have to talk to them, you know, and therefore like dumb down

how you're talking about running or, you know, almost make it something where it's like, you're not almost taking the running side of it seriously. But instead you can lift all those people up with you and say like, hey, I think you deserve to know how to recover like I recover. I think you deserve to know how to train like I train. And we can help you like come up with ways to like build that into your life and your schedule

and just almost create this like incredibly supportive community that I think in a way, like a lot of the traditional professional sports kind of don't have the opportunity to tap into. Well, it's purely based on inspiration. Like you have the LeBrons and people like that, that are just, you know, gods that we look up to.

And if they say, buy this product, we're expected to buy it, right? The difference that you're speaking to is being, yes, you're inspirational, but you didn't go to the Olympics and win five gold medals, right? You're a much more accessible human being. And so you're more aspirational.

Like people aren't gonna be able to run as fast as Mary Kane, but I like Mary Kane and she's cool. And she's gonna come out and run with us. And she's gonna help us along the way. Like there's a relationship aspect of it. It's not just somebody on the billboard that if you saw them in person, you would freak out. Exactly, and I think the truth is like,

even the athletes who win five Olympic gold medals can still almost do that in running compared to other sports. And it's because at the end of the day, like running is something that you don't need that much like extra stuff to do, right? Like if you have a road, if you have a trail, if you have a track and you know, some people don't even wear a pair of shoes, you can go out and run. And the

sort of training I'm doing versus somebody else, yeah, you might not run as much, you know, maybe the times are going to be different, but you could still go out there and do an interval workout. You could still go out there and run a long run and just build it to what works for you. But whether you're the Olympic champion, you know, 20 times, or this is your first time running, like you really have something in common. And there's this ability to, I believe, connect

in a way that's just really not, or really overlooked right now in an unfortunate way. Yeah, well, you're also running around New York City just like everybody else, right? Running is one of the few sports where track and field is different, but road running, trail running, the elites are running the same course

at essentially the same time as everybody else. So it gives it a different vibe entirely. And I think Tracksmith is this great, you know, kind of platform for you to do that. But I want to talk about Atalanta, how do you say it? I want to know where this word came from, but because you're really inverting the whole business model with what you're doing with this new team. Yeah. So I think just to start off, I'll maybe explain the name, which is in sixth grade, being the nerd that I am, I took Latin. And at the very beginning of the year, we had to pick a

mythological name and that would be the name we'd be called throughout the year. And at the time I was not a runner, I had run a 547 mile as a sixth grader, just as like an afterschool gym thing. I'm not a runner, I just ran 547 in sixth grade. Yes, so I like acknowledge that in so much as to say- I take back all this stuff about you being relatable, but go ahead. When I went to my dad who had taken,

you know, kind of years of Latin himself and I was like, oh, what should be the name I take? He immediately was like, that 547, let's do Atlanta. And the reason is it's this like really beautiful Greek myth about a woman who is a human being. They're not a goddess, but they're the fastest being in the world.

And they're faster than all men, they're faster than all the gods and the goddesses. And so much of their myth is this like more feminist based myth. I mean, like as much as they go. Like Alyssa Strada kind of thing? Yes, where it's like, she is a warrior and an athlete. Like from the Wonder Woman Island.

Exactly, exactly. What about Achilles? They just kicked him to the curb? Yeah, no, she's- She's faster? She's faster. And so I like always loved that for seven years when I took Latin, like that was my Latin name.

And it was just one of those stories that always, you know, was kind of in the back of my head. And then recently when I was going on this endeavor to start a program, I mentioned like, oh, we're coming up with names. And I threw that out there to one of my coworkers at New York Roadrunners. And it turns out the first ever women's high performance team in the U.S US was based in New York City in the 1970s. And that was their name. Wow. And I immediately was like,

there's never really been a professional team in New York, but that is the closest thing that's come to it. And I'm like, let's bring it back. Wow, I just got like goosebumps. That's very cool. Thank you. And so this is set up. This is the other interesting thing here.

You've set this up as a nonprofit. So it's a nonprofit, but then, and it's got kind of two prongs as I understand it. There's gonna be this elite running team of like six to eight athletes. And then there's a whole community arm that entails outreach and getting kids on the track and all of that.

But the professional athletes that are going to comprise this team are going to be paid employees of the nonprofit. Like that's never been done before. That's super interesting. Yeah. So one thing, you know, that I'll immediately call out is that certain teams across the country in Olympic movement sports are like registered as nonprofits. And the reason is, is like the Amateur Athlete Act of some year made it so that that was an opportunity. But we're not a nonprofit in name only. We're like a nonprofit in that we're actually going to be doing service work in the community. And in many ways, like I had just always seen this problem of the elite end of sport

and wanted to solve it. And my relationship with Tracksmith was one in which I realized giving athletes like a full-time employment opportunity where they're building career skills, taking on an actual job while still being fully supported to train is an incredible model. And one in which I was always trying to figure out like, how can I grow this? How can I give more people this opportunity? But I think the thing that kept kind of, you know, sticking in the back of my head is it will be great to help the professional side of sport, but how can I make this bigger? Like, how can I help people who maybe never aspire to go on the professional end? And to me, that was giving back to younger athletes in the local

community who just maybe have been left behind in terms of programming to like get them into sport and stay in sport and not only do it for this performance end, but like learn all the skills around healthy sport and keeping a positive mindset. And a lot of the things that maybe as a young girl had I learned would have helped me like maintain a more positive relationship with sport forever. When instead I kind of ended up falling through this period of time where I almost left it. Yeah, putting that Fordham business degree to work. Yes. Coming in handy right now, right?

My pre-med has been very much left behind. And I like how, you know, you sent me the deck for this venture. And as I'm scrolling through it, I liked how robust the part was about the community outreach and working with kids and the mentor. Like it wasn't, there's almost like a greenwashing thing with this stuff

where it's like, oh yeah, we're doing that. But it's not really about that because it's gonna be about these eight team members and how we're gonna crush it. But the feeling that I got was that that's actually the very real part of it. And even the mindfulness that went into, the intention that went into like,

we're not gonna go to the parks where this stuff already exists. Like we're gonna identify the parks where this doesn't exist. And we're gonna establish that. And it's gonna be an afterschool thing and a Saturday morning thing. And there's gonna be always two mentors

and two athletes from the team. Like you've thought this through. Yeah, this has been a few morning thing. And there's gonna be always two mentors and two athletes from the team. Like you've thought this through. Yeah, this has been a few months coming at this point. We technically incorporated in December of 2020. And I probably started working on it sometime in November. And the reason it's taken this amount of time to like fully launch and get off the ground is because I want

to do it right. And I want to do it in a way where it's not like I'm, you know, leaning too heavily on one side versus the other. But instead, like, I want this to be a nonprofit that like outlasts my running career. I want there to be a certain point where, you know, we've gone through three, four iterations of athletes who have all been able to move on to their next step post-career. And I am a part of that journey. And the only way you can have that is if you set a really strong foundation.

And in particular on the service side, where I like totally, honestly have less expertise and therefore had to lean on more people and work with others and set up like an advisory board in which I was getting that level of support to really make that service dream a reality has been really, really incredible and something that like, I just, I can't wait for the first program. Yeah, do you know who the elite athletes are gonna be? Is the team already? I can't name people yet because we're-

The answer is yes, but you're not gonna tell me. We're primarily recruiting NCAA athletes. And so that's as much as I'll say, but I think the big thing is like who we're recruiting in this like maybe more abstract way are women who are excited by this, who are buying into the system, who say, yes, like the ability to one, just give back and develop mentorship skills, go through the appropriate training to be able to like perform this service work is something that I think a lot

of women who, you know, I'm technically like the end of the line for millennials based on textbooks. So most of these girls are- You're the Gen Z borderline. Exactly. So most of these girls are the generation below me. And I think this like idea of giving back is something that really, really resonates with them. And the ability to actually develop career skills and take on like a true job while at the same time having their professional running career fully supported is something that I think people are excited about. Because when you think of great athletes, you know, you think of the Megan Rapinos of the world. And the thing is, Megan is an incredibly talented soccer player.

Like we love watching her on the field, but like Megan means more to the world than her soccer performance. And I think, you know, as younger athletes kind of look up at that, you know, generation of greatness, they realize that like the people who they really are inspired by are those who are, who are advocates in some way, we're giving back in some way. You know, greatness happens off the field as much as it does on. And I think that, that kind of recognition is something that makes them think, hey, like this can be my start. Yeah, I think that's right. And I think that's powerful.

Young people, whether it's athletes or just activists in general, people who have a cause that they care about and they make their lives meaningful in that regard is become, that's become like an aspirational thing for young people, which makes me optimistic about the future. You know what I mean?

It's not enough to just go kill it and win a race. Who are you and what are you about? And how are you using that responsibility in whatever platform you've established as a result of that to actually create the know, create the world, you know, create a better world. Exactly. And I mean, I would say the same thing where it gives me a lot of hope because of course, whenever you're starting something new and never done before and completely unique, there's that fear of, you know, for all of the people who I've had buy-in

because they've joined my board or donated or coming on as sponsors? Will I then turn towards the athletes and be kind of told no again and again and again? And I think to just like feel the excitement in those were, you know, going to be bringing on and like knowing that there's this understanding of being a part of something bigger and also like being a part of change. And like, this is something where I don't want us to be like the first and the only. I want this to become a model that's taken seriously.

Heck, if other organizations wanna step up and do the same thing, like to me, that's incredible. And that shows that I'm doing something that like can really push the sport forward. But if it just ends up having to be me starting this in different cities across the world, like that's another thing too that I'll try. No, it's super cool.

I mean, I think, you know, in the wake of you coming out and sharing your story, if you had just found a way to fall back in love with running and maybe, you know, performed well, most people would be like, that's cool. But you've really taken this on, like shouldered this responsibility to be an example of the change that you're speaking about. Like you're not just

talking about it. You actually are doing something. Yeah. And I think that's always been something that's been really important to me in this process. And I feel for a while, I've been just like dying to tell people about this because I'm like, I'm really doing something. But I think it's just kind of like that, that cliche of, I didn't want to just talk the talk. I wanted to walk the walk. And I try to do that in my day to day anyway, like the way I talk to myself and treat myself. Like I, I try to exude like this, you know, idea of healthy sport as best as I can. And, you know, I try to give back to our local running community, but I just always felt like

there was something bigger that I could be doing. And I think part of it is that New York City has never had a professional team. And to be actually bringing one to this community that in so many ways,

like kept me in the sport, feels like the ultimate thank you because it's a way for us to not just uplift the girls that we're servicing in the local community, but also the broader running community of New York and hopefully help create something that gets even more excitement and drives even more people to Central Park to run with.

And just, yeah, I think it's going to be something where there's a lot to learn and a lot to do, but I'm excited for that. How are you bankrolling this whole thing? Is Tracksmith a partner or where does the funding come from? Yep. They'll be an apparel sponsor of the program, but how we're also differentiating ourselves is it's not just a one apparel sponsor footing the bill. Instead, we're kind of taking this like multi-revenue approach to the program. So we have sponsorships such as Tracksmith and then donations are another opportunity for us to be able to grow because we are, again, a service-based nonprofit. And then lastly, we are going to unveil a membership side to this where, you know,

if you want to get training programs, if you want to get behind the scenes kind of access to the athletes, we're trying to be much more open as an organization and not just use the mentorship skills that we develop to give back to the younger athletes, but to also have like actual programming that, you know, if you're a member of the organization, like we're hosting weekly, bi-weekly events and there's conversations with experts and there's almost a lot of the programming that we will be doing like in the parks and like also being given to our members. It's great. So when's this whole thing kick off?

June. It's happening. Very soon. Yeah, that's cool. Yeah. We gotta get back to the, we kind of like diverted from the timeline. It's all good.

No, it's good. I wanted to hear all about that. This is the best part. Back to the Nike Oregon project and when you were running. So you're starting to have disordered eating issues. You end up not being able to have your period for like three years or something like that. And then you end up having like five stress fractures. And that's

the result of when you're not menstruating, you're starting to have all kinds of bone density issues. Yeah. I had bone loss and my numbers had started to get to like a concerningly low level. And it took a lot of intervention to like restrengthen them as much as I could, because between the years of like 18 to 22 are your peak bone growth. And I didn't have my period between the ages of 18 and 21 and a half. Yeah, it's pretty bad. Yeah, it just, it reminds me, I spoke about this with Lauren Fleshman, who I know, you know, and it really speaks to, again,

this like systemic issue of this kind of male dominated paradigm where the men who are the support system in this like systemic issue of this kind of male dominated paradigm. Where the men who are the support system and the coaches are training women fundamentally like men. And built into that is this assumption that women's bodies adapt and change in the same way that dudes do. And it's just not the case.

Like the way that the female body, you know, sort of matures over time is extremely different. You were talking about, yeah, when you're a girl and you're starting to put on a little bit of weight, like that's normal, but that hammer to just like, always keep your weight down, always keep your weight down, you know, leading people into this situation of disordered eating, I mean, it's really a big problem.

Yeah, and I think, you know, a big thing I always like to start off saying is that whenever I say women's training needs to be different than men, like we can train as hard as guys. Like if anything, I think the women can train harder. Some of the workouts I've seen people do, like we can grind, but there are certain things that are different and need to be accounted for. Like even just the fact that over the course

of a four week period of time, like there are so many studies about like, if you're in your PMS week, bluntly, you're probably not gonna be performing quite as well. And that doesn't mean you shouldn't push through and sometimes, you know, kind of continue to like grind. But there should be this acknowledgement that, okay, maybe the sort of times we're targeting this week can be a little adjusted. Or if you're in a program that like builds for three weeks and drops for a week, maybe if we try to align that with that week,

that would be more beneficial. So like super kind of science-y oriented opportunities are something that very, very few people talk about. But the other thing is that for women, how we're built physically and how we develop, you know, guys, it's just like an upward trajectory perpetually. It's like, yeah, it's pretty straightforward. Girls, there's always that kind of college year slump

and that's, you know, that's okay. Like that's just a thing. And maybe one girl doesn't experience that. Maybe one girl hits it really, really hard. But if you're like lifted through that and you're supported through that, then you're gonna get to 22. And then you're gonna have that kind of like resurgence

of, you know, kind of like knowing your body and your body kind of being in this space where like, it's done. Yeah, well there's a later peak to it, right? Yeah. And understanding that there's gonna be peaks and valleys through those interim years and not making a big to do about that

or having it be a referendum on how the rest of your career is gonna play out, I think is really important. And I think that change only happens when you are staffing these teams with women coaches and women psychologists, it's like you gotta have people who understand this, who can help these young women through this process and not hold them to expectations

that are ultimately not in their long-term best interest as an athlete. Exactly, because I think one thing too is that, you know, all of the issues that I've spoken about, like REDS, Relative Energy Deficiency in Sport, which is essentially when you're under fueling and or overtraining and or therefore developing, you know, different physical reactions such as bone loss.

Men can experience that as well. But the bar at which you start to break down is like easier for women to hit. And it's because physically we're supposed to carry a little bit more fat where, you know, we have this almost like, like our fail safe of like reproductive health is going to drop before a man's does. And as a result, we almost like, it's not that we can't push ourselves as hard, but going over the red line too often is more risky. And there's more opportunities for things

to start to break down just because biologically we're different. And I think that's why like having people who understand and can relate and sympathize and have their own experiences, such as other female coaches or support staff, is always going to be helpful. But it's also incredibly important so that the men

who are also in those positions and also want to be coaching or support staff do the work and put in the time and educate themselves. And I think that can be said about so many different things. Like just as we need more women in sport, we need more diverse individuals getting these positions. And I always say that any culture that supports inclusivity and supports diversity and supports this ability to have different opinions in a room and different experiences in a room and backgrounds is always going to be a better culture than one in which it's just one type of person. So for as much as we need more women, we also need more people of

all sorts of backgrounds being able to be in those positions because that just ability to find ways to relate with one another and it's just super powerful. Yeah, there's always gonna be the cult of personality with certain coaches though. It kind of feels like that's the way it is. Maybe that can change, I don't know. I think when we're talking about this, we're talking about biology and physiology,

but there's also the psychology of all of it, right? Absolutely. You know, on the one hand, we should point out that weight is factor in performance in running and in lots of sports. So it's not about, hey, we can't talk about that or that's a verboten subject, but maybe don't, you don't make your athletes weigh themselves

in front of the other athletes. Like, you know, there's a way of doing this, right? So how do you have a productive, if you're a coach or you're an athlete, how do you talk about this in a meaningful, productive way? Well, I think the first thing is that you have to do, get yourself educated. And whether it's things like safe sport training

or working with a nutritionist yourself or having, and also I'm gonna actually backtrack, registered dietician, especially if you're with younger athletes, I really recommend working with somebody who's done the full training that's required to like have a dietician's degree. I think nutritionism is like kind of this buzzword,

but the truth is like the more you're working with true experts and people who have devoted their life to understanding this, the better equipped you're going to be because most coaches aren't registered dieticians and most coaches maybe have not had that level of, you know, education on this topic. So the more you're leaning on people who have is super important. also have to like work with somebody like a therapist or, you know, a psychologist to also make sure you're not bringing any of your kind of own perspectives onto the track. And I think that's really important because, you know, a lot of these issues we're talking about are being

talked about really loudly right now. But if you were maybe an athlete in the nineties and you yourself kind of went through these experiences, even if you know they were wrong, I think so often people kind of bring their own history and their own maybe discomfort with food into things. So I think that kind of first step is like, take care of yourself, get the education that you can, work with the professionals that you can, and with the professionals that you can and see if you can also kind of find out where your own biases lie. That's number one.

And then number two is really encourage your athletes to similarly work with those people. And once you've maybe like assembled that team or have like a list of resources, try to find ways to build that into your programming and really make sure that the language around food and the language around weight and body inclusivity is always as positive as you can. And if you're not the professional, do not pretend to be that. So if you are concerned about an athlete's, you know, weight being too heavy, for example,

like if you, like, that's not really your place to give them a weight that they need to hit because there is no ideal weight. Like you don't know what you're like, the registered dietitian would look at you. Like, that's not a thing. Like you can't give somebody an arbitrary number. And so I think the more you kind of like try to stay in your lane, would look at you like, that's not a thing. Like you can't give somebody an arbitrary number. And so I think the more you kind of like try to stay in your lane, try to direct people to the resources

that like truly are going to help them while at the same time educating yourself as much as possible is important. And if you're a coach, maybe don't like bully your athletes talk shit about the other athletes in front of the other athletes and create some crazy culture of fear so that Mary Kane has to go, you know,

steal cliff bars and, you know, nibble on them in the dark. You're being caught, right? So look, this whole thing plays, I mean, basically in pretty short shrift after you end up in Oregon, it's not working out, right? How long were you there before you're like, I'm out of here and I'm like done with all this?

Yeah, so I think the big thing to say is that I left Portland by the end of my freshman year. So I was out there for about a year. But, and this is where I always like kick myself looking back. That wasn't some big, oh, this was bad, I'm leaving moment. This was more me apologizing to everybody because- You couldn't live up to Alberta's standards.

Yes. You couldn't cut it. Exactly. So I moved home to New York and I told everybody like, I have disordered eating. Like I have been trying to make myself throw up and I can't do this. Like this is super unhealthy.

I'm cutting myself. Like my mental health is fully deteriorating. I'm really sorry, but I just need like to figure this out and then I'll come back. So that was the plan. Just to back up for a second, when you, cause you told, did you tell Alberto or one of the coaches that you were cutting yourself, right?

Yeah. And what was the response? It was after this race that had been delayed. And so it was late at night and I was like, truthfully having like a full like breakdown. And I was really scared that I was gonna hurt myself. And so I went to Alberto and the sports room and I told them like, I just tried to make myself throw up multiple times in the bathroom. Like I've been

cutting myself. At this point, the sports, like it already caught me doing it a couple of times. So he knew that I was. And I was like, I don't know what to do. Like, I really need help. Um, and this is the other thing that always makes me cry. Um, I was told that they wanted to go to sleep because it was late and that like crushed me in a way that I like, I don't know what I thought they were going to do, but I think I just thought they would do something. Um, and so the next day I called my mom who I, at that point I hadn't been talking to like honestly and openly. Um, and I told her I have like a really bad relationship with food now. And I didn't tell her that I was cutting myself at the time.

I was like too embarrassed. And so my mom and dad at that point had been like not spoken to by the coaches for a while. There had been too many moments of like red flags and me saying something and then getting in trouble and then kind of being scared across the country. And so they like booked a flight home. The next day I got on a plane to New York and the plan was like, I'm going to like get myself back together so that I'm tough enough to like rejoin the team fully. So I spent a year in New York. So that was always the plan to go back. And let's just like pause for a moment. I mean, I'm so sorry that that happened to you.

And it's infuriating that you would go to, was it the psychologist person? And like literally say like, this is what I'm doing and I need help. And that person says, I'm tired. I need to go to bed. I mean, it's just, it's unbelievable. Yeah.

And I mean, he had caught me doing it a couple of times and both times it was just kind of like knock it off and like waved off. And that's helpful. He'd seen me like self-harm myself in other ways as well. Like there was a track workout in which, and a lot of people witnessed this, unfortunately, but I started hitting myself.

And I like, so sad, but I was supposed to run a 400. And if you've ever been to Nike's track, there's trees in the middle. So I ran a 200 and I ran off the track. And I ran towards where like the bridle is. And I don't know what was in my head. I think I just wanted to like get off campus and like run into traffic, honestly.

And like the sports tech ran after me. I was hitting myself and they dragged me back onto the track and I had to finish the workout. And, you know, in those moments, I think what people don't always recognize is that like, to me, even saying this now, like I'm so embarrassed that I did that. Like to me, like even though I know everything that had happened, like that feels very unprofessional. So when I'm being told at 18 that you're being super unprofessional, knock it off, get on the track, finish it, you're like already in a really bad place. So you're not thinking, hey, why aren't you helping me?

This is clearly a sign of distress. Instead, I'm thinking, yeah, I agree with you. Like this is super unprofessional. I'm really sorry. I'm sorry I'm, you know, disrupting the workout. Like, is everybody else okay? Okay. Like I'm gonna cry myself around the track now

for the next four laps. And I say that not to, you know, really do anything more than for anybody right now who's had that sort of experience where they relate to the fact that something wasn't done for them, but rather than kind of recognize that it's wrong in that moment and maybe even right now,

they were still saying, sorry, don't say sorry. In those moments, the right thing to do would have been get me help. In those moments, the right thing that anybody should have done was shut that down and like intervene. Right, and if anybody should have had the wherewithal to do that, it's the Nike Oregon Project,

the most well-funded elite track and field situation, perhaps in the world. It would be one thing if it was some high school track coach that didn't know any better. And it's like, all right, well, maybe that guy just, he's not trained to know what to do in that situation, but it's really inexcusable

that that went down the way that it did. Yeah, and I mean, like to this day, like I have no idea if any of those individuals are safe sport certified. And if they are like there, I mean, I am, and there are multiple modules where you can't watch that and not be like, well, we've broken 40 of these rules at different times.

Well, I think there's a lot of education that needs to be done around that. And also the scope of what safe sport is about, because I think there's this sense that it's about sexual abuse or doping only. And that's kind of the limits. I think people need to better understand that it does expand to all of these kinds

of mental health situations. And it's not at all about doping. It's all about really like a coach's guidebook to abuse and what not to do. And I think the really like incredible thing about their programming is the fact that it's really, I mean, it's really well done and it's done by professionals. And I recommend

every single individual that works with any sort of athlete, whether you're a parent, whether you're an athlete yourself, a coach, like an AD, get yourself safe sport certified, even if it's not required of you. And the reason is there are so many different things that I even look back on my experience and I'm like, God, that was part of the toxicity. Like if you're working with like a 16 or 17 year old, you know, like they probably shouldn't stay in your house when they're traveling. Yeah. You know, like you probably shouldn't be texting each other

like every day. And, you know, all of those sort of barriers that create this sense of almost like connection or like this like family bond, if you will, are really like not positive things because like this is a child and you shouldn't be overstepping like that. And so when things start to go wrong,

that kid's first thought is gonna be like, this person is like my uncle. Sure, yeah. I can't let them down. Yeah, yeah, yeah, well, it's more than that. This is the person who's going to help me realize my dream. And this is the person who believes in me and who is telling me that I'm capable of these things.

It's unbelievably intoxicating. But what the point that I'm trying to make is, I understand well how potent and powerful that dynamic is. And when you're a young person and you're that impressionable, you don't want your parents, your parents, like what they have to say is irrelevant. Like you're protecting this very, you feel very special.

You are the person who is touched and you are going places and everybody else get out of the way and I'm gonna listen to what this coach says. And you have no ability to gauge the unhealthy nature of it because you don't know any different. No, and you're looking at your teammates

and whenever you ask them for help, they're saying like, buy in, stop complaining, do what you're told. He's the best coach. He's gonna get you to the top. And I think like an elephant in the room that maybe needs to be addressed with all of this is that like, you know,

like my old coach Alberto isn't just banned by SafeSport, he's also banned by USADA. And so in retrospect, there's always that part of me that's like, you know, I kept saying no to thyroid medication. I kept saying no to using an inhaler. I didn't use birth control for weight loss reasons because I knew at that point, like there were deeper problems going on. The birth control was his means of addressing the period thing, right? No.

No? So that's- I misread that then. So he has since said that, but the reason I was put, or I didn't actually take it. I was given physician samples, birth control from his own doctor who was friends with him is because he felt that I was bloating a lot. And he felt some of my weight might be because, this is just gonna all sound crazy, because I was really still cycling

and maybe still PMSing, but just not bleeding. Sorry for, I should have gotten given like a content warning for that. And as a result, he thought some of my weight was because I was super bloated and we needed to de-bloat me. And so that's why diuretics had been thrown out. Diuretics are not allowed. I said, no. And then birth control became this thing that he decided would really

help me lose weight, which doesn't make any sense. It isn't a thing, but I was brought into the doctor. She gave me birth control because he wanted me to lose weight and you know what the thing is like you know if I went in there and I said hi like I'm an 18 year old girl I want birth control for birth control purposes they can give you like they can kind of just give them to you right but if I go in like samples yes but if I go into the doctor's office with my coach, who I'm not related to, and they sit through the whole appointment and talk about how I need to lose weight,

like we think birth control is gonna help, and they give them to you. Yeah, that's crazy. That's insane. That's crazy. It's crazy. What other kind of doping stuff did you see or that was impressed upon you? You know, I think the thing is,

and I always come back to this is like, I was just the person who always said no. And it wasn't from anything other than the fact that like, again, I think I took so much of this like, you know, oh no, like they probably don't even know diuretics aren't allowed. Like, let me explain to them that I'm not gonna take them because like, make sure you never encourage somebody else to do it kind of way.

The 17, 18 year old is gonna explain it to them. Exactly. And, you know, I think a big thing was that like really early on, I was always like, everything had to be triple checked with the global DRO, which is, you know, how you know if something's banned. So I would eat Tums and be like panically,

like trying to figure out if Tums were banned, right? So like, that was a big thing when I was like in high school. And then as soon as I went out there, it kind of became more like, no, you're good. And it was kind of more like, you know, hey, I know your dad had said thyroid, you know, might be bad before, but like your numbers are kind of on the lower end.

They're not low, but like maybe we should like do this. And I'd be like, no, like, you know, my dad has said you're not supposed to take that if you don't need it. Or it would be like, hey, like, you know, my dad has said you're not supposed to take that if you don't need it. Or it would be like, hey, you're always breathing really heavy while running. You know, maybe you have asthma. Like maybe you need an inhaler.

Right, always trying to find the medical exemption. Yes, and I was given an inhaler at some point. I never took it because I remember again, being so like, guys, I think you're making a mistake. And again- And are you getting the periodic knock on the door and doing the getting drug tested? Yeah, I was drug tested a ton.

And I always joke, I was in that big like fancy bears leak. My information was like threatened to be leaked, but on it, it said like two Flintstone vitamins and like two iron tablets and like vitamin D. And so they never released it. And I felt so like both like vindicated, but also kind of like put out that I'm on Flintstone vitamins,

like watch them cower as I walk onto the track. But the thing is like, I was always saying no. And it was always coming back to weight of like, well, you need this because like thyroid can make you skinnier too. And birth control for, you know, weight loss. And I think that's just important to like say, because sometimes it also just makes me be like when the other athletes were like just buy

in already like was that something else and the answer is I don't know and sometimes I wish I could go back and have been like more conscious in those moments of like what was really going on. But was there pressure from the other athletes to like get on board with some kind of protocol? Well, we did have like a team bonding trip and during it, one of the athletes did tell me that like I needed to step up and stop being such a baby and you know, like kind of you either got a buy-in or you're not on the team sort of talk.

And like, it was funny because it was this like team bond, like team bonding trip. And I was the first person to talk and I was like, this was so much fun. Like we made memories and friendship and I'm 12. And then the next person to go was like, you know, you have to step it up. Like, you know, you can't, like, you either have to be professional or like off this team kind of talk. And I was like, well, the friendships are over. So I think, you know, I think it's just like I'm only saying this because I think, you know, in so many ways, the reason that this system of current sponsorship is troubling is because all lines become blurred. Right.

Because if everything is about performance, right? Well, things like weight is going to be overstepped. But how much of the weight overstepping was because there was maybe a want for like cheating to happen? I don't know. And so like when everything is about performance, then kind of like, however you get there, people act like is okay.

And if it means burning some people out, if it means stepping all over people, if it means stepping all over people, if it means, you know, treating people poorly, you know, it's not personal, it's business was always the catchphrase that I used to hear. And I'm like, you know, businesses that operate like this aren't good. And usually ultimately that comes to light and there has to be a reckoning. And, you know, I think society should never condone that sort of behavior for the sake of performance

because there are plenty of people who are performing incredibly and who don't do that. Well, this did all come out. I mean, all of this was going on for you in like 2015, right? Yeah, so 2015, 2016, I was still on the team. What ultimately happened was that, again, I had like kind of wanted to, I stayed on the team and I wanted to ultimately like be back on the team

in this full way. But as I had mentioned earlier, I had never told my parents about the cutting. They only knew that I was struggling with food. And after the Olympic trials, my current coach, John Henwood, caught me cutting myself. And he immediately called my parents and was like, I'm really sorry. She asked me not to call you, but I'm really scared for her.

And I don't know what to do. I don't know what I'm supposed to do in this situation, but I'm here with her. Like, you know, I like, I need help. He did what you're supposed to do. He did what a grownup would do. And he admitted that he didn't know. He admitted that he didn't know how to handle it.

And I was so mad at him for like years afterwards. And I like, I always love John. Like it wasn't like that, but you know, to me it was like this like horrible moment because one, I was super embarrassed and not my parents know and that's embarrassing and two um like my parents were like you you have to leave this team like this is destroying you this is like this is tearing you apart you have to leave and I think there was like a period of time where my parents could not understand why I like so couldn't see

like, you know, that, that the system was a problem. And I think part of it was like, they didn't know a lot of these stories, these stories that I'm telling now. I sat my parents down before the New York time piece came out and I just told them everything. And so there's so many moments that like, I've never talked about and like, aren't even public that like, they almost saw what was happening to me, but they didn't even know how it was happening. But, you know, they told me like, this is a bad setup for you. You have to like have health be your number one. And so I left the team. And then the sad, you know, irony is that like,

that's when my body was finally like, you've been doing damage for so many years. Like my bone density was lowered substantially. And then I started to break. And it was this kind of like tragic, like, yes, I had left, but I think because I didn't actually let go and I didn't actually understand

like what was wrong with the situation that it just like, I was in this cycle. And the truth is what snapped me out of it was when the USADA report came out in which Alberta was banned, I, my first, like my immediate reaction was like, no way, like he didn't do anything. That was literally,

that was literally my first reaction to it. And I, the next day read the whole entire report. It's like 270 pages. I read it word for word. And holy crap, it was the first time I saw on paper that they lied. And there's so many moments in it where it'll say something like, you know, athletes on the team were told that, you know, USADA had given them permission to do blank, right? And like I'd been told that, I thought that was true. Like, of course, yes. This giant company that's telling

me that like, we got full approvals, don't worry about it, all these allegations are lies. You're kind of like, I don't know, worth billions of dollars. I think they're telling the truth. What's your sense of how high up that went at Nike? Very, you know, and I- When the CEO stepped down, that high? I mean, he was on the emails. And again, some of this stuff happened before I was on the team.

Actually, like almost all of it did. Yeah. And again, some of this stuff happened before I was on the team. Actually, like almost all of it did. Yeah. All these people have come out going back to 2008, right? Telling stories about this. Yeah. And so I,

like I was always, there was no, like I almost was never there firsthand. I was only ever hearing things secondhand because I joined the team in 20, well, I started working with Alberto in 2012, officially joined the team in 2013. And it was around then that allegations started to pop up, right? So I'm already in the bubble. I'm already in the system.

And when you're being told like, no, that was misconstrued. Like, you know, all 10 of us are saying this was actually what happened. You weren't there, but like, you know, here's some story. You're kind of like, I trust these people. They're my friends. Like, you know, they wouldn't do me wrong. And so I, as I was reading the USADA report, there were all of these moments of me being like, oh my God, USADA is telling me that I was lied to.

And I'm one of the athletes that they're sub tweeting this thing of saying they thought this was the thing. And I like was just frozen. And like, even now trying to describe the feeling, it's like, I had just so many emotions run through me because like like that was when the flood like opened for me internally. And I suddenly was like, whoa, if everything in this was a lie, then like what else was happening

that I've never let myself come to terms with? And the thing is, you talked to me the day before the USADA report came out and you looked me in the eye and you said, I know everything you went through, you were emotionally abused. I would have laughed at your face. I would have walked away and been like, what is that guy talking about? Like I could look back on my experience and I could see the lies and I could see the abuse for what it was. That was the most both empowering and like terrifying.

Right, it shatters the illusion. Complete shattering. And, you know, again, like I think really the scary thing about abuse is that the reason it takes years for people to come out is because so often they don't even know that's what it was. And for me, it was like, as soon as I knew that was what had happened, like my first thought was, holy crap, there's other people who don't know.

And that's scary. It also explains why you wanted back on the team, right? Which is part and parcel of Nike's big defense and all of this. Like, what do you mean she's saying all this stuff? She was trying to get back on the team. I'm like, yeah, of course. We didn't know anything about it.

So, right. So this is, so, well, Salazar gets banned in September of 2019, right? So does that report come out in advance of that or did those things come out at the same time? Same moment and then like six weeks later, the New York Times piece came out. Right.

And they were the longest six weeks of my life. So there's a good like three year period where you go from being Mary Kane, fastest girl in America, bright future, Olympic glory is a foregone conclusion for this person. There was even a New York Times article about you like in 2015, right? Which was a whole thing.

Glorious picture. You're like whitewashing this whole experience. But then there's this period where you disappear, right? It's like, what happened to Mary Kane? Like she just vanished off the landscape. You go home, you're trying to piece yourself back together during this period of time. It's like this fallow era where suddenly

you're nowhere to be found. Then, so you're dealing with what you're dealing with and trying to come to terms with this, but still buying into all of it, thinking you're gonna make your way back, right? Until this report comes out. And like, I'll say this, right? So I, you know, was like, I'm not tough enough.

Like I can't handle it. Like I'm maybe not like built to be a pro, right? And what ended up happening was I kind of had this like injury. And again, my parents, like my coach, John, I hadn't really shared a lot of these stories with. There was maybe like inklings of it and pieces of it. But like with everything, you're just, like, if I can't even look back on that, like, how could I share that with somebody else? like if I can't even look back on that, like how could I share that with somebody else?

And so, you know, around like probably like in the beginning of that year, it was like maybe 2018 summer, Alberto and I had talked like once and it was kind of meant for me to be my like closure moment of being like, okay. And are you still, you're still getting paid by Nike though throughout this period?

Yeah, I was still, okay. And are you still, you're still getting paid by Nike though throughout this period? Yeah, I was still, yeah. My contract ended December 31st, 2018. So I was still a Nike athlete. So it wasn't like weird in a way that there was like that kind of moment. And then kind of between then and when I was maybe hurt at the beginning of 2019, like he kind of kept like reaching out to my coach

just to see like, how am I doing? Like, you know, like friendly stuff. I think, okay, we're fine, right? And then, you know, I was, I got hurt. We asked like, oh, any tips? I ended up going out to Portland. And for me, a lot of it was like, I, again, I still had this, like, you know, I felt so bad about everything that had happened.

And I talked very openly with Alberto about the fact that, like, you know, I developed, like, a really serious eating, you know, disordered eating. And I used the word disordered eating instead of eating disorder because I wasn't bulimic and I wasn't anorexic, you know, in terms of like true clinically diagnosed. But I under ate substantially and I was underweight a lot. And I went through like big fluctuations and I would try to purge and I wouldn't be successful. So it's kind of more within that like disordered eating bucket. But I, you know, I shared this and it was kind

of like, okay, like kind of just not like acknowledged. And I think that was kind of like a little bit like, wow, like, I guess, like, I guess that's like, to me, I think at the time it was almost this like, yeah, yeah, we like, yeah, you weren't, you couldn't handle it, you know? And I think that was kind of like- In other words, sorry to interrupt you. In other words, in his mind, you being a product and not a person,

he'd already made the decision that you were damaged goods. Yeah, 100%. And he's like, oh, that's fine. You can come and tell me that. But like, I already knew this wasn't gonna work out and I've moved on. Totally. And so you're kind of like, okay, like cool.

But like, you know, I'm still like trying to be a pro or whatever. But I'm at that point pretty like, okay, you're maybe like that first crack in the rose-colored glasses is hit. And up until then, nobody had ever hit the glasses. I've just been going through life being like that whole situation was totally normal because everybody who was out there with me acted like it was totally normal because everybody who was out there with me acted like it was totally okay.

And I'm too embarrassed to tell almost people in my life who maybe would tell me that it wasn't. So like the first cracks hit and I'm like, you know, still fine. And then just going through life so that once boom, the USADA report comes out, I think it was almost this like, oh, like not only do I kind of have this like moment. You got like red pill, right? Like you just went into the matrix all of a sudden. Yes, yes.

Or came out of the matrix. And like, who knows? Maybe had I not had that like little crack in the glasses, like maybe they wouldn't have fully shattered. I have no idea. I think they would have. Cause like if you read 270 pages of that report, you're just like,

mind blown, recommend it, fun times. But I think that when I came out and I shared my story, right. I think first off, I thought nobody was gonna read it. Like I'm like, my mom's gonna give me a pity watch

and like feel sad that she watched that thing. And then there's gonna be like a small contingency of the running community. And I honestly thought that 50% of the people, you know, again, like maybe 10 people watch it. Five of those people are like, that's sad. One person is like, wow, that's me. And then the other four are like, that girl's fat. She's just slow. But to me, that one person saying, okay, wow, that is me, like would be worth it.

And I didn't care how many people were negative. I didn't care like at all about the response. It was just for that one person. And that it was like a Thursday morning, I woke up and it was everywhere. 17 million people have watched on YouTube alone and Lord knows how many on the New York Times website. It's insane.

But I wanna back into this a little bit because there's a lot more going on here. After the report comes out, the rose colored glasses are cracking a little bit. You're coming to terms with the reality of this situation. And on some level, you're wrestling with the idea of this situation. And on some level, you're wrestling with the idea of going public with it. But the initial thought was, I'll share this on Instagram.

I'll write a little thing up. Then bringing it back to how we started this podcast, enter Alexi Pappas, who I didn't know was the puppet master behind the scenes here that put you with Lindsey Krauss and kind of set in motion this whole thing. Yes, yeah. And what it was was like,

when I even first spoke to Alexi, it was in that like very, just like, I need to like write, I need to like throw stuff onto paper, like almost like throw this up, bad analogy. That's pretty fast from a crack in the glasses to like, I feel the need to talk about this now. Yes, and I think it's because like, there's such a frantic energy and this like,

almost fear that happens in that moment, because I'm gonna say like that, this whole situation has made me like, and this is bad, this is something I'm working on with my therapist, but like less trusting. And it's made me like more skeptical of authority. And it's made me question like society's behavior in a way that I just never

had done before. And I think that's really powerful. And I think that's a great thing. But in that moment, it's like really horrifying to be like, oh my God, like this, this was condoned. This was normalized. People acted like this was okay. And I'm realizing right now how bad this was condoned, this was normalized. People acted like this was okay. And I'm realizing right now how bad this was. And like, who am I kind of in this big world to like have figured it out. And I think knowing that I did, it was like, you know, 24 hours ago I didn't.

And like that person almost scared me. And I was like, I need to help them. And obviously I couldn't go back in time and help myself. So how can I pass it forward to the next person? You know, it was like my immediate reaction. And I remember I pulled my parents aside, like maybe the next day or like really early on in this. And like, I had a, you know, I was like, I have to tell you everything. And like, we did the

deep dive and we went like, this was like an hour's long conversation of me just sharing everything. And as like, you know, there's obviously a lot of tears, like I can't even get through a podcast without crying. And at the end, I think my parents' question was, like, what are you going to do? And I said, and I don't know why I think I'm going to start crying. But I was like, I don't think I'm ever going to be a pro runner again. But I love this sport. And nobody's ever going to sign me. Nobody's ever going to follow me again. I said, but I can't live with myself if I don't share this. And if I don't like help that one

person. And I remember like, they were so scared for me and so proud of me at the same time. And I think for them, it was just like, like, it was almost like this happy, proud and this, like, you're doing something bigger than yourself. And again, we didn't think anybody would watch the video. I thought if, if anything, anybody would watch the video. I thought if anything, and I'm going to be very honest when I say this, having so many people watch that protected me in a way that I don't know do people understand. And had that been something where like a couple thousand people watched it, like the same negativity from one side of that conversation would have been louder and it probably would have been stronger. And you see it in how other athletes from that program have since been treated when they left and when they came forward and when they were vocal. And in many ways, like that's what I thought I was going to experience. I mean,

like that's what I thought I was going to experience. I mean, Kara Goucher has gone death threats. You know, athletes have been called horrible things across like websites, social media, they've been gaslighted. And I just, I was prepared for that. Like that was what I was signing up for. And, you know, the sport is one in which again, like what was done was really horrible.

And yet, like a lot of the competitors of these organizations don't necessarily turn around and say like, oh, wow, like you're really trying to do something good in the world. Like let's, you know, like support you. If anything in the traditional space, it's much more like, no, you're not that fast anymore, like whatever. Yeah, everybody's running to protect their own at the same time. I mean, it is a David and Goliath story. It's not just, hey, this is Mary Kane

and she's gonna share her story, you know, of how hard it was. This is you basically taking on Nike. I mean, it's, you know, that's a very, and you're a young person, like that's very scary. And you still wanna have this career in running. So you're gonna become, you're risking becoming persona non grata in doing this.

And that takes like an unbelievable amount of courage to do that. And I thank you for saying that. And I think again, though, it's like the almost sad thing is that yes, it was courageous and yes, I was being vulnerable, but that was like pure fear that was guiding me. And it wasn't fear of repercussions.

It wasn't fear of like, you know, the big bad guy. It was fear that somebody was living a lie and hurting themselves because they didn't know it. And it was fear for that younger version of myself. It was that fear of that version of myself from 72 hours before that drove me. And I say that, you know, in so much as to say, like, I think these issues are terrifying.

I think the fact that we don't like support and protect people and treat them as, you know, like these incredible gifts. And I say this like in a very general, like we're outside of sport way. Like people are people, they're not products. And when organizations lose sight of that and take advantage of people,

like that goes beyond sport. Women being taken advantage of goes beyond sport. Women being objectified. This is like the reason 17 million people watched it is because it's not just a sport story and it's not even just a woman's story. This is a, when powerful people abuse and you know, what is power? It depends on the situation. And so there are plenty of people in the world with power over others. And the idea that, you know, somebody was trapped in that was like, you know, that's like that fear guided me. And so like when people say I was brave or courageous, like I thank them,

I appreciate that. But like it, this wasn't a moment for me. Like this was literally me like chucking the baton across the room and being like, save yourself. Because it's horrifying when you're in that. And I couldn't get proper treatment really until I knew. My relationship with food pre, like even during that New York Times piece was like weaker now than it is today. And it's because all the work that I had done had always been not at the root of the issue. Well, that earnestness and that sensibility

comes across in the video for sure. I mean, you get that. And I think that's a big reason why it did end up connecting with so many people. And for people that haven't seen it, essentially Lindsey Krauss, who's been on the podcast before, accomplished runner in her own right is all about these issues.

She's like the perfect person for Alexi to say, go see this person. I know like you contacted her and she's like, come to the New York Times office right now. And you're like, I thought I was gonna do an Instagram post and now you're making this movie with her. But she really helps craft and shepherd this message in a mindful, intentional way.

And product of which is really palpable and powerful. So, it's not surprising to me that so many people have not only seen it, but were impacted by it. And all of this happens really quickly, right? So, the USADA Salazar thing comes out in September, right? Yeah. I wrote like down the timeline here, You know, the USADA Salazar thing comes out in September, right? Yeah. I wrote like down the timeline here cause it all happens really quickly.

October, Nike shuts down Oregon project. November, well then, so the Nike CEO, Mark Parker steps down. Was that before the video? Yeah, I think so. And then, yeah, and then November 4th, WADA says it will investigate each athlete that trained with Salazar.

Also, by the way, I was never investigated. And I just want- I was gonna ask you, I was like, what's the status of that, by the way? I was about to say like, please investigate me. Like, I don't know what camera I have to look at. Because like, to me, ugh. The story seems to end with your video kind of,

and your call for third party investigation of Nike. I couldn't find any evidence that there's, you know, a narrative beyond that. Like it doesn't seem that that's happening, but in any event, so November 7th, then your video comes out and it like explodes. And then Alberta was safe, and maybe like a few weeks after that.

Yeah, after that, right. Temporarily, is it still temporary? It's still temporary technically. And he's still yeah, after that, right. Yeah. Temporarily, is it still temporary? It's still temporary, technically. And he's still obviously in that four year window. Yeah. Right. Much sheer surprise, I would suspect. I mean, first of all, I can't imagine you,

being you the next day when your world must have just exploded, right? It was one of those- You must have been terrified. I mean, did you even sleep the night before that this was coming out, knowing that this was gonna come out? I woke up super early.

And I like did, like, I definitely had such a restless night. And again, I thought it was gonna be like, you know, super, like super small, 50, 50 negative positive. But like, it still was just like, it wanted to be able to see it in the world and then like never, never look again. Right.

That was my thought. I thought I was going to like bleep my Instagram. Have you seen it before? Have you seen, you'd seen that obviously, right? Yes. Beforehand. Yeah. And I was able to send it to my mom

and like, you know what the really tragic thing too is like my first thought when I watched the video was I was like, I look really fat. Like that was like my first thought when I watched the video was I was like, I look really fat. Like that was literally the first thought I had. And I remember I called my mom and I was like, I think they're just gonna think I was the fat girl who didn't do well.

And again, it's like, that is how recent. That's the disorder though. And that is how like recent I was to being like that deep in it. And like, I'll be honest, I still struggle, but my God, like a year and a half different just because I was able to like almost stop treating just the food,

but treat the PTSD. But I was able to see it before and that morning was insane. And the craziest thing was I was being called, like my, and my parents' house were being called. I don't even know how they were getting my parents' phone number. And like different news outlets wanted me to like do exclusives with them. And, you know, like two like competing, like news networks were calling me and like one kind of kept threatening that like, if I didn't do their thing, then they like,

or if I did their competitors and they wouldn't talk to me. And I remember I just yelled at the woman on the phone and I was like, how dare you? I was like, I did not do this to get on your TV show. Like I did not do this so that I could be thrust into this like toxic competitive world. Like I did this to help people. If you don't want to help people, okay. But I'm a one woman. Laying down the law. Literally. I'm like, and I'm also like crying in the zone. I'm like, I'm a one woman PR team. My mom barely knows how to answer my email. Like goodbye.

And I hung up the phone and they called me an hour later and they're like, okay, we will still put you on. And again, like I didn't even care. Like I thought I was gonna be like deleting and burning my like social media accounts. Like this was not what I thought. There was a flurry.

I mean, everybody had a take on this. There was so much press in the days, two days after, three days after this thing hit. And like Lindsay kind of warned me. She was like, I kind of think this is gonna be big. And I was just like, Lindsay, only runners are gonna read this. And so like, she was incredible.

And at the time I really was managing all of this by myself. She was protecting you. So amazing. Because I reached out to her and I was like, wow, this is crazy. I'd love to talk to Mary. And she was like, yeah, I'm keeping a lid.

I'm trying to help her keep a lid on it right now. She was incredible. And what she even keeping a lid. I'm trying to help her keep a lid on it right now. She was incredible. And what she even did was she connected me to Wes Felix, who's Alison Felix's brother, and was like, you know, like reached out to Wes and was like, Alison went through this when she did the New York Times piece. Right, we have to contextualize this

because this came out, you know, there's a series of Nike stuff that was all happening around this time. Most notably the Alison Felix pregnancy thing. Yes. And her brother, Wes, who like is the most incredible person, is her agent and ultimately became mine as well.

And so Lindsay reached out to him and was like, Mary is drowning. Like she doesn't know what to do. This was very unexpected. Like she's't know what to do. This was very unexpected. Like she's handling as well as she can, but there's only like, you know, you're in this weird position, right? Where you're like, I want to keep telling this story

because I can help more people. But you're also like, I have no way to manage this on my own. This is super overwhelming. And so he called me up and was like, just anything, like forward everything along to me. I'm going to help you sort through it. Like, this is just me being a friend because like we've been there and like moments like that and relationships being developed like that were just like, again, something I'd never experienced

in track. Cause I'm used to being at the team bonding trip where I'm being told like, again, something I'd never experienced in track. Because I'm used to being at the team bonding trip where I'm being told like, you know, man up pretty much. And now I have somebody who I've like met maybe once and was excited because I took a picture with them being like, hey, I'm here to help you. Like no strings attached. Like you're my friend now, let me help. I mean, I'd here to help you. Like no strings attached. Like you're my friend now, let me help. I mean, I'd never experienced that before.

You're just waiting to get stabbed in the back. Oh, 100%. I mean, I'm still sometimes like, I feel like turning around with certain people. Like, but Alexi is honestly the person who taught me that you don't have to. And that there can be camaraderie in sport and there can be this ability to really be a teammate

and what that means. And I think, you know, I'm still in so many ways, like now shocked with how beautiful the sport is and how positive it can be when you find the right people. Well, it had to be unbelievably gratifying and emotional to see the outpouring of support. I can't tell you. From teammates and all these people who, you know,

were very frank and saying like, you know, I kinda knew this was going on and I wish I'd said something and I didn't, or I should have, or I didn't know, but I should have, you know, like all of that, like it was pretty unanimous. Yes. And, you know, like all of that, like it was pretty unanimous. Yes. And, you know, from all over the world. Yes.

I mean, it was like, I will remember to this day when even people, like I told the story in the New York Times about this one specific meet and how I didn't race well. It was the meet that I ultimately afterwards told the sports psych in Alberta that I was cutting myself. And I didn't race well. There was a thunderstorm.

We went under a tent. I was yelled at because I clearly gained five pounds between this morning and the race time because I ate bacons and eggs. And so I ran out into the thunderstorm. This was honestly my most suicidal moment. And I, like after the piece came out, athletes came forward and said, I was there. I saw that. I was in the tent. I saw what happened and I'm sorry. And like that, like I would never let that girl run out by herself.

And I never will. But it still means a lot that people said, I'm sorry, and I was there. And for me, it's about empowering that person. And, well, first off, never letting that happen in the first place. But if that ever was to, making sure there are 10 people running after that girl, because she should not have done that alone. I'm sorry.

I think I haven't talked about this a little bit. Honestly, I mean, thank you for being so open about it. And I think that recognition is beautiful and it's critical to your own personal healing process. Oh, 100%. And I think it's also like important for me as I'm going and embarking on this like new endeavor and creating a team and almost like learning,

like it's important to learn what not to do, right? That's, I have a lot of experience with what not to do. But I think the other thing is that as much as that's good, you know, you have to learn what to do and you can't almost only be coming into this like beautiful journey of creating a team that I'm embarking on with like a cynical perspective, which I think would be really, really easy for me to do

if I'm honest. And so there's so much importance. The fuck all those Nike guys team. Yeah, exactly. That's the name of the team. Pretty much. It's like really important for me to like think about like so many people who've helped me and so many people who supported me through

that time, like the Alexis or people who just like the Wesses who stepped up and said like, I'm here for you. Because those are the people who I can lean on and learn from when creating something beautiful versus just kind of creating something out of a fear of what was. You know, when you look on the past, it can't ever be like, I'm just trying to rewrite my own story.

It's how can I really make something good going forward? And so that's why I do think, although obviously I've cried multiple times, it's healthy to talk about and it's important to talk about, especially when I just held this in for so long. And you still look back on that moment of me running out into like the thunderstorm, which is so dramatic.

But literally what happened as being this like almost example of how weak I was, you know? And like that was the narrative. The narrative was in my head because this is what was told to me. Like you're a head case. This is your fault. You're the one failing yourself. And for so long, that's how I kind of remembered it. And to suddenly take a step back and look at it,

almost from the eyes of everybody but me, it's suddenly, wow, that's horrible that that happened. And how can I make sure it never does again? Yeah. It also wasn't that long ago. I mean, the pandemic, anything pre-pandemic feels like a hundred years ago, but we're talking about the end of 2019, like when you came out with this and on a personal level, you can't be a Phoenix without the fire, like you gotta burn, right? And on a broader level, in terms of like running in general, what an incredible opportunity,

because you're so uniquely situated with your experience and the level of exposure that this story has garnered that you're now perfectly situated to reimagine what the future of running can look like for girls and women going forward. And you've taken that, you're running with it. You've got the Tracksmith partnership. You've got Atalanta, I said it correctly. That's all happening.

And it's really inspiring. And this has all happened in a pretty compressed period of time. I mean, I know maybe it seems like not to you, but it sounds like it to me, like in the grand scheme of things. And you're so young and you have so much running ahead of you

and you have so much mentorship ahead of you. Like it's truly inspiring. No, and I really appreciate you saying that. And as I said, those probably like six weeks between the USADA report and when the New York Times piece came out, felt like the longest six weeks of my life.

And I think I always remember that whenever I feel like, oh gosh, like, you know, things aren't happening quick enough or I wanna be here by X date. And, you know, almost are, I think, or at least my predisposition to like push, push, push. I always look back and I'm like, that was only six weeks. And so in the scheme of things, it has been a really, really short time, which is also why I'm, you know, I'm continuing to try to learn.

You know, I think one thing that I do sometimes feel a little uncomfortable with is that, you know, we're all flawed individuals, right? And so even me kind of taking this step as a mentor and as an advocate, I have to always be very conscious of my own place in the world and how I can be educating myself and learning new things and kind of taking that next step. Because for as much as I lived my experience, there's so many other moments people can go through that I will never experience and I will never know. And to take that level of learning and kind of spread this in a way that's more inclusive and not just my story can only happen if I'm constantly trying to better myself, which is why even with this program that I'm creating and the service side of it, like we're going to create extensive educational standards for all the mentors because you can't just expect like a young, well, somebody of any age to be ready to

kind of teach, right? Like you have to learn before you can teach. Right. I think you're going to be really successful with this because based on what you just said, there's a real appreciation for humility and the level of empathy that you're able to bring to it. Like it just, it feels, you know, it's such a heart centered thing for you. And I could tell that you've thought it completely through. So I'm excited to see what it looks like.

Yeah, thank you. I can't wait for this journey and I know everything's gonna keep going quick and feeling like it's taking forever. But the more that I can stay in the present and enjoying that moment, and always be proud of like where I am today, as much as proud of what I hope to long-term accomplish. You know, I think that's

one thing that I'm really working on. And I also, you know, will kind of share it to anybody else who's maybe diving into like their next steps or a big endeavor for them is to like appreciate the day-to-day and be proud of those like little moments and those little steps in the right direction, because it does go quick when you look back at least, those little steps in the right direction because it does go quick when you look back at least, even if not in the moment. Yeah, yeah, yeah. We gotta wrap this up in a couple of minutes,

but there's a couple more things I wanna touch on before I release you to your life. I think another reason why the video really worked was that it wasn't just you telling your story. You were like, this is what happened to me. But what you need to understand is that there's a systemic problem and that needs to change. Nike needs to change, Nike is too powerful.

And the investigation that had been launched really had nothing to do with the way that you were treated or this kind of toxic culture. It was all about the doping thing, right? And Nike ultimately is going to do what Nike needs to do to protect its brand. So it's going to basically, you know, give lip service to this, sweep under the rug,

whatever they can get away with and move on. And you were the one at the outset calling for a third party to conduct this investigation. Like, okay, so they're gonna self police themselves here. Like, what does that, you know, like what does that actually mean? Like, obviously, you know, nothing's gonna happen. So my sense is that that didn't happen.

There is no third party investigating. Is there any update? Like, I just wanted to know, what is the 2021 status update on what's happened there? So I think first off, there was an internal investigation. And I only know this because like one reporter was told that.

And I was reached out for comment because I guess there was nothing released besides. Nothing public, there wasn't like a public dossier or something, here's what happened. The only thing that was like shared with this journalist, Erin Strout from Women's Running was that they were gonna maybe like invest more in women like invest more in women and like stuff like that.

Right. So like super big, I can't even remember what it was. And, you know, at the time I remember being asked for comment and I was like, hey, anytime any movement is going towards like empowering women, that's great. Sure. And it's tricky and complicated because you look at Serena Williams and what they've done with her

and it's unbelievable, right? So it makes it, it's like, okay, and then you tell your story and I don't know what to think. Yes. Well, I think part of it is that like, we also have no idea behind closed doors what was happening for anybody.

It's a company made up of people, right? Yeah. And those individuals turn over. People like tried to protest within Nike. There were like a hundred people that protested, right? Yeah. And like people were threatened to be fired if they like walked near the Alberto Salazar building.

That's kind of scary. Is it still called the Alberto Salazar building? Yep. The new Hayward Field, there's a memorial to him. There's like a big picture at a stadium that I'll probably have to run it multiple times over the course of my career. Oh my God.

And that was built after, it was only like recently finished, like a couple months ago. That's right, they just redid it. Yeah. They did like a reboot. So like, I think for me, it's one of those things

where as you know, as you've seen through the documentation I've sent you for this, my own like business that I'm trying to start, I don't like using buzzwords and I try to avoid it at all costs. So if I say like, I'm trying to empower women, that means nothing to me, right? This is actually what I'm going to do. And I'm going to outlay steps A, B, C, where we're going to go, how we're going to support it.

And you know what? If I don't have an answer yet, that's always okay. But then say, I'm going to have to lean on these partners and these experts and take these next steps. And so I think the big maybe takeaways if you're a multi-billion dollar organization is actually care and actually figure out, okay, if we're going to do something, what are we going to do? And how are we going to do it? And don't just keep coming out with ads that even support like women who are pregnant and are athletes, right? Because I watch that and I think you've never acknowledged how you treated Cara, Alicia, Allison. There's never been any sort of like, hey, we did wrong. And I think I have always felt that leaders are not people who do everything right. Leaders are people who are always trying to better themselves, always know they have places

to learn and can acknowledge that they're going to fail sometimes. And in those moments can step up and say, I'm sorry. And this is how I'm going to change going forward. Sure, they take responsibility. I see it as like, look, you can try to whitewash this and put out a bunch of marketing campaigns. And the truth is the average public isn't paying attention to this. No, of course.

It's not, is it, you know, so how concerned are they really? But ultimately it seems to me in their long-term growth interest to really reckon with this, the amount of goodwill that they would be able to engender if the new CEO said, I'm getting to the bottom of this, I'm taking it, you know, super seriously.

And they really did like do a top to bottom revamp on how they're dealing with all of these issues. The amount of storytelling alone that they could do out of that would create a bulletproof brand going forward. And they have the balance sheet to be able to make that happen. Yeah, I mean, I remember when the first kind of comments from Nike came out after my piece,

first time, I never thought they were gonna comment because I never thought it was gonna be big enough. But the fact that it was immediately like blaming and trying to undermine the story, like to me, it was just horrifying. But the thing is like, so Alberto- That backfired badly though. Yes.

I mean, Alberto is still, I think his kind of USADA appeal has been, I think it's complete at this point. I'm not sure as of when the podcast release, whether or not there'll be any sort of findings. We're still waiting on the final safe sport ruling about like whether this is an indefinite ban for him via SafeSport.

So there's still two different like investigations that like are yet to be like fully determined. But the thing is that like his whole like legal like pursuit with USADA and with SafeSport is being backed by Nike. And they've been very public that they're supporting him in his appeals. And I think that's one of those moments where you're just like, you know, how can you not just listen to my story, but listen to Kara's and Amy Onderbegley and all of these other athletes who have come forward and said this happened to them and like still try to shut them down. And I think when you live in a world where, you know, like there's that amount of power and there's that much of a will

to take away an athlete's voice. It makes me want to live in a world where you're empowering those athletes and giving them voice. And that's really my goal is I want the sport to be better once I leave it. I want athletes to be more empowered. I want them to be protected. I want them to be safe. I want athletes to be more empowered. I want them to be protected. I

want them to be safe. I want them to be healthy. And I think, you know, when I was young, I always wanted to be the greatest professional athlete in the world. And the truth is I still want that. But I think my definition of greatness has changed. And I realize that if I had won And I realize that if I had won all of the races I ever wanted to win, but I never stood for anything, that's not great. Like to me, that's kind of lame. And if I end my career having really changed the sport in a positive way, like that's greatness.

Yeah. And so that's why- It's crazy how that works, right? Because you would have suspected that the way for you to have the biggest impact is to go win a bunch of gold medals or set world records or what have you. And maybe that'll still happen. Hopefully. I'm not interested in where you're running is right now,

but completely detached or irrespective of that, because of all of these things, you're now in a position to have a real permanent, meaningful, substantive impact on the future of girls and women's athletics. That never would have happened had you not endured the things that you went through. Yeah, and I think, you know,

the thing that's hard for me sometimes is that like the dream I had as a young athlete of like being a professional and I used to be a swimmer too. So like I, you know, used to keep that a little vague, like which way we'd go. I know, it cropped up here and there. Exactly. I know.

You know, I- While you're running 547 miles in sixth grade. Yeah, I was still swimming. That was my primary sport. Swimmers don't know how to run. So there's something weird there. I see triathlon in your future. We'll see, we'll see. But I think like the hardest thing can sometimes be

is that like the dream I had can now never happen, right? Where the dream was to be a professional athlete and to train full time and to, you know, be the LeBron James, the Serena Williams, the insert any of the top athletes in the world, the Usain Bolts, right? insert any of the top athletes in the world, Usain Bolt, right? And the truth is, even if I win the Olympics, I can't be that person. Like that dream was taken away from me because I'm not a professional athlete on paper. And the thing is,

it's been this like really interesting reworking of like, how do you let one dream die and let another one blossom? And I think that's kind of what this last year and a half has been for me is like accepting, like I can do something different and still love it and still be proud of it. And that's been kind of an interesting, I would say journey of realizing that like, you know, like how a dream is lived has to sometimes change. Beautifully put.

I think that's a good place to put a pin on it. Yeah, thank you. Until next time. Thank you. That was really powerful. I appreciate you being so open and honest with me about all of that. No, and thank you. Until next time. Thank you, that was really powerful. I appreciate you being so open and honest with me about all of that. No, and thank you for giving me the space to cry

to like at times- Are you kidding? I love it when people, it's been a long time since somebody's cried on the podcast. You might be the first person to cry in the new studio. So you'll always have that. I've christened it with my tears.

Yeah. If I come to New York, will you go running with me and Lindsey Krauss? Can we go running together? Oh my God, that'd be amazing. You guys have to run really slow though. You're gonna have to slow down a lot. Sounds great to me, I don't know.

That would be super fun. And don't steal Alexi. Alexi's my BFF. She's my neighbor now. So just boundaries. You're going over to her house right now, right? Literally, yes. Just understand that I have dibs.

I think I've known her longer. I think I went. It doesn't matter. She lives here now. I'm being protective. I know. I think long-term, like, how do we get her to New York though?

You know, I'm like putting in a lot of game. I'd like her down the street from me. I don't want her to go to New York. Maybe you do. Put her on your board. Yeah don't want her to go to New York. Maybe you do. Put her on your board. Yeah, true, true, very true. Awesome. Well, I look forward to going running with you

and talking more. So thanks. How can people find out more about Atalanta? You, you're easy to find on the internet, but where do you wanna direct people? Yep, social media is gonna always be the way to go. Like my personal account is run Mary Kane and then Atalanta also has their own Instagram.

Cool, at Atalanta, Atalanta. I'm never gonna figure that out. Atalanta, NYC. Yeah. Cool, all right. Thanks. Peace, plantsants running. Thanks for listening, everybody.

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Namaste. Thank you.