The Rich Roll Podcast - Me, But Better: Olga Khazan On The Science of Personality Change, Challenging Fixed Mindsets, & The Big Five Traits That Shape Your Life

Episode Date: August 25, 2025

Olga Khazan is a staff writer for The Atlantic and author of "Me, But Better." This conversation explores personality mutability and Olga's experiment to transform from anxious introvert to someone freed from her own patterns. We discuss the Big Five traits, her Miami breakdown that sparked everything, and why anxiety isn't actually your superpower. Along the way, we examine the paradox of self-acceptance. This exchange is about agency, transformation, and why we amplify our suffering. Enjoy! Show notes + MORE Watch on YouTube Newsletter Sign-Up   Today’s Sponsors: Lincoln Financial: Check out the NEW 4-part series "The Action Plan"👉https://www.lincolnfinancial.com/richroll                                                    On: High-performance shoes & apparel crafted for comfort and style 👉https://www.on.com/richroll              AG1: Get a FREE bottle of D3K2, Welcome Kit, and 5 travel packs with your first order 👉https://www.drinkAG1.com/richroll Birch Living:  Sustainable mattresses with a 100-night risk-free trial. For 27% off site-wide visit BirchLiving.com/richroll. BetterHelp: Get 10% OFF the first month 👉 https://www.betterhelp.com/richroll WHOOP: The all-new WHOOP 5.0 is here! Get your first month FREE👉https://www.join.whoop.com/Roll   Check out all of the amazing discounts from our Sponsors 👉 https://www.richroll.com/sponsors   Find out more about Voicing Change Media at https://www.voicingchange.media  and follow us@voicingchange

If there's some challenge in your life or something that you're facing or something unfamiliar, that you have it in you to face that challenge. Like you probably have the skills and the traits that are necessary to do that, and you just need to nurture them. You need to go out and act as if fake it till you make it and rise to the occasion, and you can. Don't let your personality determine the things that you do in life. Hey people. Today we are going to pontificate on personality. What it is, what's fixed about it, and what's not. And what we can plausibly do when we decide we're done with some part of ours and desire to do something about it. So, insofar as this is a show about change,

Today's question to ask and answer is, is it possible to actually change your personality? And if so, how and to what extent? Before we do that, I would like to take a moment of gratitude to thank everyone for their enthusiasm for last week's episode with James Fry. I loved it. I think it will stand the test of time as one of my all-time faves. but you know James is a lot and for many an acquired taste I imagine so I can't say I was all that sure how all of you would receive it so it's been really great to get so much positive feedback and really heartwarming to hear from so many of you how it recalled the kind of conversation that harkens back to the early days of the show the audio only days when I was like this traveling salesman peddling my podcast and knocking on doors to greet my guests with a suitcase full of gear that I would set up on their kitchen table or in a hotel room or some random conference room by the airport. And I've got a lot of love and a lot of nostalgia for that time. There was a romance to it, a purity. And it was exciting

because it was new. And unlike now, not that many people were doing it. So if I was lucky enough to catch lightning with a guest like James Frye, like I did with some of my early episodes with people like John McAvoy and David Guggins. It would be like this event, but things have changed a lot. And as I discussed in my most recent role on, most of those changes have been amazing, but some of the best aspects of this media format

seem to have been slightly eroded in the midst of this growth spurt. And some of those things are the very things, are the very things that got me interested in it in the first place, and what I still love about it the most, which is the unvarnished and vulnerable version of people sharing openly their very human stories gleaned from personal experience. And all of this I bring up to say that I found the response

to the James Frye episode, as well as the Craig Mott episode, I should add, and a couple others in there, as really heartwarming and affirming because it means that, you know, I'm not alone. And so you guys have inspired me to be more proactive and more committed to getting back to the real heartbeat of all of this, prioritizing this kind of experience for you.

And pursuing it more intentionally and rigorously, kind of like an artist would their art. And so I guess I'm making a bit of a public announcement to you and to that. So thanks for the nudge. Stay tuned because, you know, it's going to take a minute because, you know, we batch a lot of stuff in advance.

And the second thing real quick is that I'm in the early stages of doing more stuff on substack these days. We've got plans to do much more there in the near future. So this is, you know, early, early days. But I have started publishing some essays there about once a week, including one reflecting on the James Fry experience that I'm pretty proud of. So if you're not on my substack, if you have never been on substack, check it out. I'm at Rich Roll there, just like I am on all the social media.

platforms or you can find a link in the show notes on the episode page on my website richroll.com. All right, let's take a quick break and we'll be back with more. What if we've all been thinking about our future wrong? What if there is no finish line? What if there's only a through line? Well, that's the idea behind a special project I've been working on with Lincoln Financial, a four-part series of mini documentaries in which each, Each episode features me spending the better part of a day with a moment to understand what it really takes to evolve with intention over the long haul and how to sustain what you love across the physical, mental, and financial dimensions of life.

My guests include something for everyone, Andre Agassi, tennis legend, Olympian Sarah True, musician Walker Hayes, and more expert in personal finance. So if you're drawn to the kind of depth that we explore on this show, I think you're going to really connect with this program. It's called The Action Plan, and you can check it out now at lincolnfinancial.com slash rich roll. Movement is so much more than just exercise or training or motion even. Movement is a language. It's a way of connecting body, mind, and environment. movement as a way of being, a way of being that brings me close to myself, closer to other people, and to what matters most in life. And for me, what we wear in that pursuit plays a crucial

role. And that's what I appreciate about on. They engineer apparel that supports and elevates the practice of movement itself. From running shorts with built-in support to technical teas that cool you down right where it matters. This is apparel born from precision and tested by elite athletes, but made for anyone committed to the path. I've been with On since 2023, and I'm still just so impressed by how they continue to elevate and innovate in the name of purpose, not flash. Head to on.com slash rich roll to explore gear that supports you every step of the way. So a couple years ago, I came across this article in The Atlantic titled, I gave myself three months to change my personality.

where this journalist decided that she was kind of fed up with certain aspects of herself, and she decided to set about changing them. And it was this really great article. It was cheeky, it was provocative, really informative as well. And so when I found out that she ended up extending her experiment for an entire year and then turning that into a book, which is called Me But Better,

I decided I best book her for the show because I find all of this fascinating. and because I think it really captures the theme of this podcast, which is, if it's anything, what do we need to know and do to change for the better? And after all that, I think I'd better just get into it. So have at it with me and Olga Hazan. Olga, thank you for coming.

Yeah, thanks for having me. Thank you. I'm excited to talk to you. In thinking about your latest book and your work kind of more broadly, essentially you're somebody who's challenged by and confused by a certain degree of anxiety and neuroticism that you're experiencing or you're having these challenging emotions,

you're trying to sort them out and figure out if there might be a better way to live. And maybe you can speak a little bit about the specifics of that. But you make this decision that you're gonna go on this journey to address that, and you're gonna do it, it through the lens of personality change. So I have questions about that choice,

but maybe just paint the picture of who you were at the beginning of the journey we're gonna talk about. So the book starts out with kind of a good encapsulation of this issue, which is I had this day in Miami. I was like on, my partner and I had been going down to Florida in the wintertime because I have seasonal affective disorder, which is also addressed in the book. But, so we're in Miami, there's really unimpeachable weather, like, beautiful.

We're, like, overlooking the ocean, you know. And I have this day where I have to do a bunch of stuff that is, like, slightly annoying or just, like, slightly challenging. And I just, it breaks me. Like, I have to go get a haircut, and the haircut is bad. It's not a good haircut. It doesn't look good on me. She didn't listen to what I said or I didn't communicate properly.

and I just, I immediately chug a beer in order to try to, like, emotionally deal with this bad haircut, which is how I dealt with my problems at the time. And I, like, kind of lost my car in this parking garage, but then I, like, fight through traffic and I get to this photo shoot, which is the next thing I have to do. And he, like, I get there and he's like, do you want to fix your hair? I was like this is trying to be helpful but like not understanding

this is the result of me spending money on my hair and he takes a bunch of photos of me and they're like they're not good I don't like the photos I think they look bad but I'm not allowed to say this

because they're for work yeah this is this is because they're going to go you know on the Atlantic they're going to be in the Atlantic they're going to be a giant this blown up like magazine size in the print

Atlantic magazine that goes out to millions of people and I'm like looking at this and I'm like this is like the worst photo of me ever taken. So I'm like okay okay yeah okay so I'm you know back in traffic I'm not a very good driver I'm like driving I'm already like sweating this photo I end up taking a bunch of wrong turns and I like my like path home gets like longer and longer my boss is like slacking me about something at the same time as I'm driving and he's like this story needs work and like can you make these edits and I'm like trying to respond to him but also driving I have to go to the grocery store because my mom needs these like special foods for her like diet and like I'm at the grocery store and my cart locks like right outside

the store and so I have to like carry all my grocery or no I end up dragging my cart through this hot parking lot to my car. I drive my car to the Airbnb. It's just like a day of like minor stressors that eat away at me. I basically get up to the Airbnb and I kind of just break down. I just have like when people say a nervous breakdown. I think that's just what I had. I start just crying and kind of just, I think I said I hate everyone and everything.

I'm like chugging wine. And, you know, even now, like, telling this story, I'm like, that kind of is fine. I mean, that's like an annoying day, but it's not, you know, hair grows back and like, I didn't get in a car accident or anything. I mean, setting aside the fact that you write for the Atlantic and you're having your photograph taken for, like, this magazine, it's a very human story and extremely relatable, you know. And it's a story like many of the other stories in the book, you tell with a certain level of self-deprecation. Like, it's death by a thousand cuts, it's not any one thing,

but it's the accumulation of these, you know, inconveniences and this worldview that like the world is in a, you know, kind of adhering to like my plan. Yes. That, you know, eventually boil over into, again, like a very human moment. Like you were overwhelmed and, you know, your anxiety burst through.

But, you know, as somebody who is in recovery and like I'm like an AA person, like this is like you're, come to Jesus moment, like you're having your awakening, you know, it's like, you're hitting bottom and you suddenly are blessed with the willingness to actually, you know, look at yourself and do something about it. Yeah, yeah, I would say so. And like, I kind of was just like, you know, there are so many people who would have looked at that day and said, hey, I'm getting my photo taken for the Atlantic. Like, how cool. Like even. It's all perspective. Yeah, you know, like that's, who cares what the photo looks like, you know. Like any rational person would look at it.

Yeah, like I just couldn't see the positive side of things or the way that things are not all that bad or the way that I hadn't like somehow darkly, like, you know, pick the wrong hairdresser or, you know, done something terrible to like make this all happen. Mm-hmm. So with this, you know, kind of moment

that you experience in this recognition that like maybe you should like get into action on this, like you make this decision to, you know, explore yourself through the lens of, personality and personality change, which is a very interesting and different choice. Like, there's so many, there's, you know, thousands of books you could have picked up.

You could have called your colleague, Arthur Brooks. Like, there's a lot of resources at your disposal and threads that you could have pulled. And so I'm curious around like, how did you land on this idea of personality change in the first place as being the kind of modality that you were gonna approach this problem? So I had already done some research showing that personality traits have a pretty big influence on our lives.

So some of the traits like conscientiousness, they matter more than like IQ or socioeconomic status on some outcomes like mortality and job performance. So I kind of knew that this was all kind of connected to personality. Like it wasn't just this random like, I need to figure out how to stop having nervous breakdowns. I knew that that was connected to the trait of neuroticism. And kind of more importantly, it wasn't just my neuroticism that was going wrong at the time. This was kind of as the pandemic was letting up. It was like 21 or early 22. And I just kind of wasn't getting back out there.

Like I never had a pandemic bubble, so I kind of just didn't see anyone for a year. and I just even when it was like safe to gather I wasn't I was kind of just like retreating into myself and you know if I had a busy work week I was like well I deserve you know to sit on the couch and drink wine and not talk to anyone and that will be more restorative than connecting with other people and I kind of realized that I mean I had friends technically like you know people from high school people from college but I just didn't interact with anyone most weeks and I was like, that's not healthy. And also my, so there's a trait called agreeableness,

which has a lot to do with like warmth and empathy. And for me, a part of it was anger and that I would get really angry, both at myself and at other people. And so I kind of wanted to tackle everything at once. Like I wanted to revamp multiple sides of myself as opposed to just meditating a lot. But the normal response or the typical person would have said,

okay, I know I have these things, I have a certain degree of self-awareness about them, time to go to therapy, right? Which is a piece here. But is it because you had already, you know, spent so much time talking to all kinds of people, social scientists and on some level understood the research around mental well-being

that made this, you know, kind of a more obvious choice for you? I think part of it is just, yes, so some of the research that I had already previously done, but also I was actually in therapy. And therapy is definitely part of it. And there are studies that show that, you know, going to therapy reduces neuroticism by a significant amount.

So I definitely recommend therapy. Same with antidepressants. Like if that works for people, I definitely recommend them. But part of like this science of personality change is that you actually have to go out and do stuff, like just talking about it doesn't really fix the problem. Like, you kind of have to walk the walk.

And, you know, my therapist would suggest things to me like, hey, maybe you should get a hobby. And I would kind of like, yeah, yeah, yeah. Like, sure. I kind of wanted something that was like, you know, boot camp or like a plan of some kind that would actually force me to do things. Because that is really the key part of personality change and of ultimately feeling better is getting out of your house and actually doing the activities

that are associated with personality change? The premise is that personality is mutable and perhaps more mutable than we're prone to believe. Like we identify it as this relatively fixed thing. And I'm curious around myth versus truth when it comes to that. But first, let's just define, like what is what is personality yeah um so most of the scientists that i talk to um think of it as

the thoughts uh feelings and behaviors that come most naturally to you so if you're in miami and you're getting your photo taken for the atlantic magazine and the photos look bad are you like oh well at least i'm you know getting my photo taken for the atlantic like i'm so blessed thank you jesus like i'm going to drive home now or do you have a huge meltdown you know, and fall to pieces. The kind of, the people who study personality change have a twist on that, which is that personality helps us pursue our goals. So we kind of are all subtly trying to accomplish various things in our lives all the time.

And our personality traits help us accomplish those goals. And sometimes when we find that we're really far from our goals or we're not able to do the things that we set out to do, we end up kind of changing our personalities without totally realizing it. So this is like people who become super conscientious so they can get their dream job or so they can excel at their dream job. We end up kind of molding ourselves a little bit in order to get the things that we want.

So that's kind of the extra twist on it that goes beyond just like what you're already like. And how does personality deal? differ from mindset or attitude, because those things are obviously important in terms of, you know, sort of setting ourselves about achieving goals as well. Yeah, great question.

So there's not like a psychology, obviously, it's a soft science. Yeah, like when these words get around, I was like, yeah, but his mindset, like what's a subset of what here? Yeah, the other one I always get is like, how is it different from habit? So it's kind of like personality is like all of the above, right? Because if who you are is what you do,

then isn't habit a fundamental aspect of personality. I don't know, you know, it gets weird. Yeah, I would say that the most common way of, like, reconciling these that I hear is that habit, mindset, and attitude are all part of personality. But it kind of ultimately becomes, like, they kind of all get braided together and become kind of like your identity or like who you, yeah, identify as. You know, people who go for a jog every day, you know, eventually they might start to consider themselves like a runner. And so that would be kind of more like a personality type than, you know, I just happen to exercise whenever I can, you know, remember.

So how does science identify personality talk a little bit about the big five? yeah so the conclusion that the psychologists have come to um after debating this for for decades is that there are five personality traits um you can remember them with the acronym ocean so it's openness to experiences which is um kind of a nebulous trait but it's sort of like open-mindedness how how up you are for new ideas and activities um this is associated with like political liberalism and kind of creativity. C is conscientiousness, which is the go-getters among us.

These people get up early. They do go for a morning jog. They love to crush it at work. They know where all their stuff is. They get places on time. E for extroversion. Extroversion, the opposite is introversion. It is sort of like that I need quiet time to myself to recharge,

except that we all need quiet time to ourselves to recharge, not just introverts. Extroverts also, they like being around people, and they also just are more active. They just do a lot more activities. They like to get outside the house and be doing things, even if they're not talking while they're doing it. Agreeableness is warmth and empathy toward others.

These people have really, they're happier, they're kind of more resilient in the face of adversity, and they have really meaningful and deep relationships with other people. And then neuroticism is basically depression and anxiety. And the opposite is emotional stability. So it's sort of like bad things happen to you and you kind of just take it in stride.

So all of us to one degree or another fall somewhere along the spectrum with these five different archetypes essentially. Yes. But this was not always the consensus on personality, like, you know, like I grew up in a time, it's like, I remember just hearing about the, the, is it the Myers-Briggs,

the Briggs-Meyers test for a very long time. And in the book, you kind of recount the history of science with respect to trying to understand what personality is and isn't. Yeah, so before we kind of settled on the Big Five, and again, they're a spectrum, so no one is kind of a pure introvert or extrovert. So personality change just means moving along the spectrum of the traits.

But before that there was different categories. I mean, Freud had ideas that we have like these subconscious impulses and that kind of dictates what we do. The trait theorists who are kind of more popular now think that like, no, like we're pretty aware of what we want. Like, well, you know, people will kind of describe themselves pretty accurately when you ask them. And then the Myers-Briggs was popular for a short time. But that one hasn't kind of lasted in terms of validity, just because it kind of tends to put people in categories.

So like you're an introvert who judges, you know, and none of us are really in a category. Like, we all have, first of all, we all have like little bits of all the different traits inside of us. And we might even use different traits at different times depending on the situation. we are a multiplicity of personalities it isn't like a singular thing yeah yeah and some people you know code switch pretty significantly between i mean i do as a parent you know i'm i'm not the same person at work or in a hostile interview that i am with my toddler you know um so we all call upon different elements of of traits in order to um get through life is the notion around mutability, a newer one?

Like, when did that start to become something that scientists were taking seriously? I would say it is relatively recent. The personality change studies that I write about have only been happening since, like, the past 10 years or so, which is very recent if you think about the fact that the Big Five were only really codified in, like, the early 90s, late 80s.

So, yeah, it is really. And Nathan Hudson is sort of the big personality change researcher that I, that I profile. But yeah, and for a long time, there was this thought that people change, you know, a significant amount, or maybe a small amount during childhood in their teen years, but then once they're 30, it's the personality is set like plaster to quote William James. And so, you know, people thought like once you're 30, you're set, you're not going to change ever again. preferences aren't going to change your life isn't going to change. But kind of more recently, we find that that's not really true. People do change a significant amount.

I mean, just reflecting back on my own life, like when I think of myself at 30 or even like 35 versus now, like, yeah, my personality is completely different. And my preferences are different. Like, you know, I can't be an outlier in that regard. You know, it seems almost self-evident or obvious that it can't be a fixed thing. And yet, maybe it's the,

the Myers-Briggs thing or whatever, Briggs-Meyers, whatever it is, uh, kind of created this idea that it is a static aspect of who we are. Like, you are who you are. And I'm an introvert and you're an extrovert. And that's just the way that it is. Yeah. I think that, um, the Myers-Briggs did because it puts people in categories. And so people then have their little four letters or whatever and they kind of carry it around and, um, become self-fulfilling. Yeah. And then I mean, so first of all, I have, I have no problem people who identify as an introvert i think that's totally fine if you want to do that what i would kind of caution against is like taking that and like rejecting opportunities that don't

fit with your personality as you think of it so if you're an introvert so you can never become a manager because that requires you know speaking to people and inspiring people and you know going out and meeting clients i i would not try to think of yourself as an introvert for a while and see what happens have you had this conversation with susan kane i i haven't had to Susan Kane multiple times. So she's wonderful and she did, she did agree to be interviewed. And I really love her book and I agree with her ideas. But she and I see the introversion, extroversion thing a little bit differently. She would say, obviously, you know, if you're introverted, you should not only respect yourself for being introverted and perhaps even celebrate it,

but with that understanding, you're in a place where you can make better decisions about, you know career and social situations etc and I think part of her book and her work is about rejecting this notion or kind of this cultural idea that if you're introverted you're less than yeah or bad because it's obviously it's you know extroverts get a lot of attention and we celebrate them and the introverts are you know hiding in the corner feeling bad about themselves and she's saying you shouldn't feel bad about yourself but where I think you guys probably agree is is we all need connection and we all need community

and social nourishment. And you're essentially acknowledging the introvert, but saying, you know, you have needs just like everyone else. And sometimes you have to, you know, step out of your comfort zone and put yourself in social situations to make sure that those needs are being met, while also saying, yeah, I'm an introvert. So I need to do that, you know, more sparingly

than an extrovert would. Yeah, I think that's very well said. And, you know, I, so part of my rationale for trying to become more extroverted is that there's all these studies that extroverts are happier. And so I called Sonia Lubamirsky, who's like this happiness expert, you probably know. She's amazing. And I was like, look, like introverts are going to yell at me, like, quietly. She likes that, though. She likes to mix it up.

I was like, look, like, how can extroverts, you know, how can introverts, like, be happy if they're not extrovert? And, you know, she really recommended, like, look, it doesn't mean, like, you go that you do have to do improv. Like, you can go to a book club and listen more than you talk. And that's, you know, still extroversion, quote unquote. You know, you can go on a hiking trip and, and hike around and, like, you know, take things in and not be chatting the whole time. And that still counts as, like, being connected with community. So you have this acronym. And we have these big five, you know, traits. but before you can begin to go on this journey, you have to basically, you know, get an assessment. Like, where are you on the spectrum on all of this, right? So how did you fare the first time that you sat down and went through that process? So I would say I fared, okay,

so I had two things going for me in the spirit of positivity. I was very high on conscientiousness and very high on openness. the things that were not so good, I was a little bit below average on agreeableness. And I was extremely low on extroversion. I was in the 23rd percentile. So I was very introverted,

and especially when it came to being, it said, friendly or cheerful. So I was not friendly or cheerful. That's a, you seem, well, whatever work, I didn't know you before, but you seem perfectly cheerful and friendly right now. Yeah. Yeah, proof is in the pudding now.

And then on neuroticism, I scored in the 94th percentile. Wow. Which, yeah, it was like extremely high was the classification, yeah. So neuroticism is something you're going to have to focus on, extraversion a little bit. But it all makes sense. Of course you're conscientious. Of course you're going to be more.

introverted. You're a writer. And as a journalist, you're not meant to be agreeable. I mean, agreeable enough to convince people to talk to you, but your job is to, you know, test the outer edges of people's ideas and to not necessarily take people at face value or trust them implicitly. Yeah, and that's something that I struggled with in that chapter. And something that a lot of people who like, they're like, I kind of want to be more agreeable, but I, I don't know. People worry about becoming people pleasers and sort of just agreeing with whatever everyone says or like succumbing to pressure or peer pressure. That's actually like not agreeableness.

That's kind of like a different thing. It's like low assertiveness basically. It's easy to confuse it for that. I did for a long time. Like you kind of pride yourself on it. Like I'm easy to get along with. I'll just say yes and everybody wants to be around me because you, You're not being authentic, of course, but what you really are saying is I want to belong and I'll do anything to belong because I'm so desperate to feel a part of something.

It's a betrayal of yourself. So you're not agreeable to your own being. And on some level, you're not even really agreeing. You're just going along to get along. Yeah, exactly. And what I had to learn is that there are ways to be agreeable but still stick up for yourself. Like, you can have boundaries with people and state the boundaries in a kind way,

you know, and not just go along to get along, but still be liked and possibly even be liked more than you would have been if you had just been saying yes to everything. Because there's going to come a point where you said yes so much that now you have to really throw down the hammer in a not kind way.

Yeah, the explosion. Yes. Yeah. Well, what you're saying is agreeableness isn't agreeing with people. It's how you comport your, yourself in the face of ideas that you don't agree with or somebody who's being unpleasant or who is, you know, triggering you or provoking some kind of not great emotion inside of you. Yeah, and I'll give you a really concrete example of something that I did wrong. So I had

a friend who, so I don't like texting to catch up with people. Like I'm fine with texting to like make plans or like, hey, have you heard of this or whatever like short. little things, but I don't like kind of long texts about what's going on in our lives. I'd prefer a phone call. And so I had a friend who told me that I had to text her to check in with her every week or else she was going to stop being friends with me. And of course, I was like, okay, okay, whatever you want. Like, I'll do it. I'll do it. No problem. But of course, I can't remember to text her every week because texting is not part of my like thing that I do is these text check-ins. So I forget. And then she stops being friends with me. So I,

I talked with a like a friendship expert who was like, you could have just said, look, I'm really sorry that I've been making you feel like I'm neglecting you or that I don't care about you. But texting is just not something that I'm able to do at that frequency, especially in that way. You know, is there another way that I can catch up with you, Zoom call, you know, phone call, something else. I don't know why, but I just, I never thought of that. I just thought you had to say yes to whatever people wanted or else they wouldn't like you. All right. Well, first of all, that is an outrageous. request on behalf of somebody who claims to be your friend. Like, if you want to be my friend,

you have to do homework and I'm going to check your homework. Like, that's insane, right? And I would take that response that you just, you know, the response that you feel like you, you could have or should have given that person a step further to say, you said, like, I'm sorry I'm making you feel this way. Like, you're not making her feel. You're not responsible for her emotions. Right, right. Yeah. It's like, it's like the conditions that, you know, she's imposed upon this are, are pretty onerous. And I would, I would say that somebody who's really a friend or somebody worthy of being your friend is not somebody who would behave that way. Yeah. And I mean, that was a big part of learning about agreeableness is like, when do I set a boundary and when do I kind of just, you know, agree. When do I go along to get along? And it's been handy with parenting because you have to, you can't just say yes to everything when you're a parent. You have, you have to have boundaries. My wife's so good at this. Like somebody recently, you know, kind of was trying to. to tempt her into attending something

she didn't wanna attend or something. The circumstances are irrelevant, but it was sort of a similar situation of trying to draw her into a web, you know, that she didn't wanna be a part of. And she was just like, yeah, oh, no, yeah, I'm not gonna do that, like, but like was so non-plused by the whole thing

that it was like, oh, okay, you know, like it just passed, right? So setting a boundary without the emotional charge around it would be agreeable. And then not worrying, you know, are they mad at me? Are they mad at me? You know, because as long as you you didn't yell, you know, you communicated kindly. Because when when you really will like ruffle feathers and make people upset is if you say yes so much, find yourself in a situation you don't want to be in and then at the last minutes they know or like, you know, yell at them for always asking you for things. Yeah. This is the plight of the chronic people pleaser. Like I've been in that situation like too many times. And then you resent yourself and then you're mad at that. person for no reason like it's and you think like by putting it off or or if it's way down the line on the calendar like that you know you'll change your mind and want to go and that day it's just it's a really bad strategy for for life but the fear behind it is you're going to get

exiled from the group or whatever you're going to end a friendship and and and that's that's the one thing you're trying to avoid and every but everything you're doing is leading you towards that all along. Yeah. Another thing I did for that chapter was volunteer in a homeless shelter. And I was like, oh, these people are like must be just complete. Sorry, it wasn't a homeless shelter. It was like a day center for the homeless.

And they served food, served lunch. That was like the main thing happening. And I thought they would be like these saintly people who just, you know, yes, whatever you like, you know. But they were like kind of tough because they had to be because they're like trying to, you know, feed hundreds of people, some of whom were in active psychosis in the middle of a pandemic in a, you know, clean and hygienic and, like, quick way. And so it was like, yeah, no, you can't have seconds yet, you know, pull up your mask. Like, they were, they were kind of

tough with their clients. But I kind of realized that they had to be, because they, so that they could do this broader project of agreeableness of, like, getting everyone fed. they had to be kind of strict, you know, individually. Disagreable on small things in order to meet the agreeableness of the big things. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Just as one workout does not an athlete make, one nutritious meal does not a healthy person make. Health is a reflection of what you do, the habits you most consistently practice. Which is why I didn't even realize I've been drinking AG1.

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from Birch. Go to birchliving.com slash richroll for 27% off sitewide. That's birchliving.com slash rich roll and get 27% off sitewide. Birchliving.com slash richroll. The thing that kind of sticks out to me that I'm curious about is just this curiosity I have about your curiosity because I feel like you are this journalist and you interview all of these amazing minds and you go deep into the social science and research, et cetera. But you're the subject.

Like everything that you write about And, you know, both of your books are like self-inquiry. Like, there's something about you that you're trying to resolve within yourself. And then you go on this journey, you know, to try to learn about it. But as a journalist, like, you're the subject. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I feel like it's a lot of psychologists that I talk to,

have this concept called MeSearch, which is the thing they end up, like, dedicating their lives to and publishing all these studies on is basically something that's, like, kind of always been wrong with them or like something that they're trying to figure out about themselves. And I feel like a lot of journalists have that too. Like it might not be as explicit as mine where they're literally like, you know, changing their personality or going on some sort of journey themselves.

But I think a lot of journalists have, they're drawn to a beat that kind of speaks to something within themselves or like they're trying to figure something out or like, I don't know, they had kids and then they, you know, became a parenting reporter because they, you know, couldn't figure out some element of parenthood or something. So, yeah, I'm sort of like that in that I've just always, probably because I spent a lot of time by myself as a kid,

I have always kind of wondered like why people think the things they do and behave the way they do. And yeah, so I've just always been drawn to those big, deep questions. So, yeah, I'm fortunate that I get to do that for my job. Yeah, I mean, writing is about, answering questions, but when the question has to do with something you're trying to figure out about yourself, you know, you're going to go on this outward journey to answer it, but it's also you have to apply those answers inward. So I always thought that like my unhappiness, like my

tendency toward anxiety and unhappiness and sort of, you know, I call it introversion in the book, but it was really just like a lack of social interaction. I always thought that it was, well, the world is just structured in a way that's making me unhappy and is making me anxious. Or it's, you know, it's hard for me to make friends because like everyone is bad. And I think once I started learning a little bit more about the personality science, I'm sort of like, no, I like approach things in a way that's counterproductive a lot of the time because I have high levels of neuroticism and or I don't know how to kind of manage these feelings of neuroticism when they come up. So I think it went from like kind of thinking that like, oh man, my life is so

stressful. My job is so stressful. Everything is so stressful. And that's why I'm anxious all the time to like, I think there's something inside me that is making me more prone to stress or making me interpret things that are kind of neutral as more stressful than they need to be. Well, first of all, those things are also doing something for you, you know? Like you address this in the book. Like we we behave in these errant ways because on some level they are serving us or at one point in time they did serve us. And so we're reluctant to let go of them and perhaps even more reluctant to see the ways in which they're leading us astray, right? Like when they go haywire, like our strengths become our weaknesses. Oh yeah. Yeah, I totally agree with that. And that was the biggest

struggle with letting go some of my anxiety is that I always thought that anxiety is how I get things done. Like that's how I get through life. That's how I meet deadlines and that's how I perform. And if I didn't have my anxiety, I wouldn't have anything. You know, I would just like- It's your superpower. Yeah, like I would-

If you didn't have that, like yeah, you wouldn't have got, you wouldn't be riding for the Atlantic. Like none of these things would have happened. Like, you know, the prospect of like not having that would be like taking the engine out of the car. Yeah, yeah. And it can really, like, interfere with your ability to have self-compassion because you start to think that, like, well, if I'm compassionate to myself, I'm going to be soft and I'm not going to try as hard because I'm not going to, you know, be like driving myself to achieve. And I think in some ways, like that's evolutionarily adaptive, right? Like people who are here today who are kind of anxious, high achievers, you know, their like ancestors, you know, generations and generations. like they were the ones who like spotted the saber tooth tiger or whatever you know they we come from a long line of of people who were anxious and it did something for us and it's it's

really hard to let go of that or you're the exception to the rule and you have built this life and you reflect back on it and see all the people that didn't have this thing that you have and it's easy to then come to the conclusion that it was because of that and perhaps solely because of that, that you were able to do these amazing things. Oh, yeah, yeah, totally. Yeah, like when I look at people, you know, they got laid off, was it because they weren't anxious enough about, you know, their performance or something like that.

Yeah, it's easy to tell yourself that's right. If you had panic attacks like I did, this would not happen. Exactly. There's your problem. The other part, the other kind of ripple or piece to that is like the urge to control, right? But if the world out there would just, you know, adhere to, like, my way of doing things, like all of this would go away and the frustration that, you know, people don't behave in the way that you want them to, that amps up the anxiety, but is really fundamentally at its root,

like an issue around control or a fear of, like, letting go or not being in charge. Absolutely, yeah. So that was a big element for me. And it was, so stay with me, but this is like. specifically what was wrong with me was that I had this urge to control and when I couldn't control the outcomes, when things didn't go according to plan, I would have a lot of self-blame. Like it was, you know, if I had planned to go to a certain beach on a certain day and I couldn't find parking, that kind of thing would like completely destroy me. I would, it would completely ruin

not just that day but that week. I would tell the story in my head of I'm a terrible driver parking searcher, you know, nothing I do ever goes according to plan. And that, so that element for me was like, I mean, in Buddhism, they call it the double arrow where bad things would happen and then I would just hit myself with that second arrow of self-blame. And that was a big part of it for me. Yeah, making the second mistake. Yeah. It's bad enough that it didn't go well and now I'm going to beat myself up for it. But within that, there's a there's a narcissism, like this sense that you're all powerful, like, you know, like I just didn't try hard enough, you know, if I had, then that parking spot would have manifested itself or what it is. It's like,

it's a complete delusion. And even if your life is terrible and you're, you know, and you're just walking around with this victim mentality, like that is a form of narcissism. Yeah, yeah, I agree with that. A big thing. So part of what I did, spoiler, is improv to kind of get over some of these things. And a big part of that, which is that makes it so uncomfortable, but also that makes it so helpful is that you can't control anything. Like you can't control what anyone says. You might have the best idea for a, you know, a sketch and like go in there and want to do a certain thing. But your kind of co-castmates are going to have different ideas and you have to find a way to make your idea work with theirs. And that kind of feeling of like I, it's not up to

me how this goes was like very new to me. Yeah, it was exercise and surrender and a, you know, a really courageous one at that. I mean, like improv for anybody, you know, let alone somebody who is kind of like at their core introverted and and has some neuroticism, like it's, that's a, that's really scary. Like that was a, I mean, in terms of like, now we're getting way ahead of ourselves, but like just to finish the thought. But as an exercise, like, I would have thought, like, well, try something a little bit, you know, less challenging first. You know, that's like deep, that's like jumping into the deep end of the pool.

Yeah. Although it's funny, like in D.C., everyone's like, oh, my God, you did improv. That's so scary. And I can't believe you did that. But out here, everyone's doing improv. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Doing these, like, L.A. podcasting like so. Right, right.

Yeah, everyone in this city is, like, done an improv class. I know, I know. Well, it's a self-selecting audience. But let's back up a little bit and create a little context here. So essentially, what's happening here is you're like, okay, you're leveraging your strength, which is your conscientiousness, and you're applying it to this project, right? You're taking, and maybe even with a degree of neurosis, right? Like, I am going to change my personality and I'm going to, like, talk to everyone. And this is, I'm committing to do it. And I'm going to, like, write this article about it for the Atlantic. Like, now I'm on the hook.

Like, you created accountability around it. And you go deep in, and you, like, your game. Like, you're trying all these things, like, trying to understand if these things in a practical, real life context are going to move the needle for you. Yes. My only caveat to that is that I was not, like, this brave, intrepid person who was, like,

yay to all these activities like probably my first 10 times in improv I was like get me out of here is this really necessary maybe I could just be an extrovert without doing this you know uh should I call my editor right now at what point did the article part of it come in was that at the beginning where you were like okay uh if I'm going to do this like I'm going to write about it like I'm interested in the relationship between the the writing aspect of it and just the personal journey outside of, like, doing it because it's going to end up on the page? So I always had the assignment, like, the whole time I was doing this, so I can't claim. So the idea, like, you pitch the idea?

Yeah, essentially. Like, it was already, like, like, Olga's going to change her person or try to. So I always, always had the assignment. So I can't pretend that I, you know, it just worked out miraculously. they were into this. But I will say that I've continued, like the book is out, it's done. I don't have to do anything with it anymore, but I will say I've continued a lot of this stuff since the book has come out

and since I was done with the book. That's good to hear, because in the book, basically you write this article, 2002 did that come out? The article in the Atlantic? Yes, I think so. But then after that came out, then you kind of like relax.

for a while. Yeah. Enough of that. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. You relapsed a little bit. Yeah, yeah. And, you know, then obviously the book, you know, got you, you know, re-energized around it.

But now in the aftermath of the book, there's a, there's a longer tale like you're in. Yeah. I think I realized that I was never really as introverted as I was like telling myself that I was. Like I think I had this story about myself that I just don't need any social interaction. And I think I kind of actually need quite a lot. Like I think I, that's like part of what keeps me going. And so like whenever I, you know, I joined like mom's groups and like I did Bumble BFF like long after I needed to. And like, you know, I kind of am more of an approach person now than a retreat person.

Yeah, it took the pandemic for me to recognize that within myself. Like when it started, I mean, I live kind of out in the middle of nowhere. I like my solitude. I'm happiest when I'm just working on my little projects by myself in a room with the door shut, you know. And so when the pandemic hit, I thought, well, like, I'm built for this. Like, this will be fine, you know. And it took quite a long time to realize, you know, to kind of succumb to the languishing of it all and realize, like, you know, how much I, that I needed. social connection in a way that maybe I had never really reckoned with.

Yeah, I think, yeah, a lot of writers were like, oh, there's a pandemic. Like, you know, because it's your day-to-day life is very insular. You know, you, you know, and I was the same. I would do my interviews and then I would write. And if anyone talked to me while I was writing, I would yell at them. And like, you know, I think it, I kind of realized that I was start, I kind of need other people in order to feel like a person. Like I, and one of the experts that I talked to, Jillian Sandstrom,

she lives in the UK or moved to the UK as an American and, you know, to teach. And she kind of realized that like she didn't feel part of the social fabric because she didn't have any friends and didn't like talk to anyone most of the time. And so she would just start kind of talking to people on public transportation mostly or like just when she was out and about and starting conversations with people. honestly just because like after a while you start to feel like am I in a video game like you know it can feel very isolating and so sometimes she just has these like little short conversations with people just to I don't know feel alive what is the science say about

when it comes to mutability of personality in terms of like what is locked in and genetic and and sort of predestined versus aspects of it that that truly are variable, depending upon, like, how you engage with them. Great question. So basically nothing is predestined. So I will say that, so 40 to 60%, let's call it half, of your personality is inherited or, like, or genetic, right? It's influenced by your genes.

However, like, no one is exactly like their parents, right? because you get those genes and then they combine in unpredictable ways. Like you can't always, you know, no kid looks exactly like their parents or acts exactly like their parents. You can't always place like, oh, this is from mom and this is from dad.

Our genes kind of combine in unpredictable ways and then they kind of interact in unpredictable ways with the environment. And the environment is really what exerts a powerful influence on your personality. So if you're, you know, a kid who, is a little bit introverted and you spend a ton of time reading

and then you become this like professor and you end up giving a lot of talks and like these are all these things are all going to influence your personality kind of as you go along in life if you happen to smile a lot and you attract a lot of people to you and you make a lot of friends

those friends will kind of influence your personality as well so I wouldn't say that anything is like oh my dad had depression so I'm going to have depression and there's literally nothing I can do it's more like, okay, you might have a, you know, proclivity toward that, or you might have it be kind of drawn toward that to some extent. But you still have a fair amount of wiggle room,

depending on choices that are made for you by your parents and childhood, and then choices that you make yourself, you know, in your early adulthood and throughout adulthood. I mean, that alone is so empowering to know. Like, it's a very hopeful message, you know, in which we have quite a bit more agency than, then perhaps we really understand. Yeah, and I mean, you see this with anyone who's ever, you know, quit drinking or completely change their friend group or change their job or gone back to school.

You know, sometimes people just have these like bursts where they're like, I'm going to do something completely different. And then that or, you know, either their personality changes and it leads them into a new situation or they're placed in a new situation and it then changes their personality. I often think, though, in those contexts, I wonder, is it a desire to change your personality that motivates, like, a major life change, like a career change or something like that? Or is it a betrayal of your personality? Like, you're walking around, like, acting in a certain way, but you're like, I'm not happy. I feel like I'm living someone else's life, or this is not for me. I can feel it. To me, it feels like that's almost like a costume that you're wearing. Like, you've betrayed your personality, and your personality is like, you're, like, the authentic version of you has been muted and repressed and has had enough, right?

And it's like, come on, like, we need to, like, go over here. Yeah. Yeah, so my therapist, one of the things she would always tell me is, like, that I have a, like, a true self and an anxious self. And that my anxious self is always, like, undermining the things that I want. So I do think some people do that. Like they end up in a situation that they assumed was right or that they assumed was what they should be doing.

And then, you know, sometimes it's because we don't believe that we can change, that we continue doing things that are counterproductive or just not a good fit for us or not a good fit anymore. Like you also change over time and what was fun when you were 22 is not maybe fun when you're 42. Have you, are you familiar with

internal family systems, like IFS, Sky Richard Schwartz. Yeah, I had him in here. Like, from his perspective, like, there's, you have all of these persons, like voices and personalities and all of them are, are trying to, you know, perform on your behalf and all these various ways and they're competing, you know. But recognizing them and honoring them, like, oh, like, hey, you know, my neurotic five-year-old self, like, I know that you're doing that because you feel like you need. need to to protect me and I'm so thankful for that but like it's cool like we're good like you can

you can like chill out you know yeah I think yeah and there is like yeah there's an element of personality change to that is like is like which side of yourself do you want to present in a certain situation I talked to one another podcaster who has this like alter ego that she kind of like puts on when she has to do some like business transactions. action like when she has to talk to her agent or something she's like and now i'm a like successful business woman and she kind of trots out that side of herself which is um you know not who she is day to day everything that you talk about in the book and you go through is is very action based you know it's you have to do things you have to get out of your comfort zone and it it reminds me of

what susan david you know susan david like this she's this amazing professor of psychology and her whole thing is like discomfort is the price of admission to a meaningful life. And I think who was it who said in your book something around confusing for being like a, basically like I can't remember exactly what it was, but basically like being a betrayal of your personality. Like if it feels uncomfortable,

like you shouldn't do it because I'm not, you know, I'm not the kind of person that does that kind of thing. And disabusing people of that, like if you want to grow change evolve and engender your life with like more fulfillment and meaning like it demands that you get out of your comfort zone so don't confuse that with um something else yeah i mean look everything that you do that's new is going to feel uncomfortable the first time you do it i mean nobody you know who uh has a baby like goes home from the hospital that first day and is like

i feel totally at ease with this i feel confident i know exactly what you do with this baby. I feel like a natural born parent. Like everyone is like a total nervous rack, can't believe like they were allowed to leave the hospital with the baby, you know, is like Googling how many ounces at what time, you know. It's anything you do initially is going to feel very, very uncomfortable. You know, the first, like I said, 10, 15 times I did improv, it was extremely uncomfortable. And I think part of it is just like if you have a value or a goal that's on the other side of that discomfort, you can't let the discomfort stop you. You have to just kind of persevere a little bit until it becomes more comfortable. You know, we see this like most explicitly

and literally with exercise where like the first time you run, it's like super uncomfortable and you're like, why do people do this? And then you get good at running and suddenly it's like glorious and euphoric. That happens with, you know, mental things, um, attitudinal things too. I found it in my notes. It was, it was Sonia. She said, just because it doesn't feel natural or comfortable doesn't mean it's not authentic. Yeah, exactly. Yeah.

And authenticity, like the way we think, like people think of authenticity is just what feels good to me, right? And so I would caution against letting that be your guide to everything you do because not everything that feels good to you is the best thing to be doing at the time. and not everything that's, you know, healthy or interesting or that's going to help you grow is going to feel good at first. In terms of extroversion versus introversion, if you're introverted and you're perfectly happy and your life is wonderful and fulfilled, like, fantastic.

Keep doing what you're doing, right? But if you are feeling lonely or disconnected and yearning for a little bit more connection with other people, here's the discomfort that you're going to have to weather. obvious. Like, you're gonna have to put yourself in social situations that maybe you rather wouldn't that are going to be uncomfortable. And you kind of walk through that. You go all that we mentioned improv earlier. Like, that was a huge, to me, that's like a huge leap for somebody who's prone to introversion. But it feels like that map, like, is pretty self-evident. But when it comes to

neuroticism, like, okay, how do I, what are the, what are the contrary actions that I need to take here. Yeah. So what anxious people do that is their reflexive action is to worry. So it's their behavior that they use to cope with the anxiety. If I worry enough, it won't happen. So kind of what the research kind of says that you should do if you have this tendency toward worry is either to limit the worrying to like a worry period. So set aside, you know, five minutes and write down everything you're worried about and then just try to stop. Of course, like, anxious people aren't good at stopping thinking. So what I kind of like that I got from Tracy, Dennis, Tuari, which is a strategy that has worked for me a little bit is,

okay, write down all your worries, write down everything bad that could happen, but also write down everything good that could happen. Because in reality, like, most things in life have positive and negative elements. You know, they, something really frightening or terrible will occur, but then, you know, you'll either find a way out of it or you will gain something from it or maybe it just won't be that bad. You know, maybe you'll buy a new house and it won't have like the XYZ that you were looking for, but it ended up having a lot more space or it was in a cool neighborhood or, you know, positive outcomes are also possible. And I think that is something that I and a lot of other neurotic people tend to lose

side of when we're really in a worry spiral. So that's like kind of your opposite action for that coping behavior of worry. The other things I've heard of for people who kind of struggle more with like the panic side of anxiety, so more like panic attacks, is to actually try to lean into the sensations of panic. So including things like breathing through a straw, you know, getting your heart pumping really fast and just noticing that like these sensations are maybe a little unpleasant but they actually don't hurt you like you're not going to die from your heart beating fast or from hyperventilating

that panic attacks aren't dangerous a lot of what is painful about neuroticism is that you are kind of afraid of your feelings you're afraid of your neuroticism and so part of what the kind of therapy around this involves is like making you less of afraid of the anxiety. So even if it comes, you're not, you're not panicking because you're anxious. I have people in my life that I'm close with that are prone to this sort of thing, even to the extent that it's all consuming, you know, and it's being fueled by news and politics and global events and just this proclivity for future tripping on the disaster that is, you know, obviously just around the bend. And it's almost like a fuel source, you know, that makes them

feel alive and, and kind of an addiction, right? Like, it's energizing, I suppose, on some level, it's destructive, but it's very difficult to, like I'm powerless. Like I can't, you know, like I feel like until someone like that has their own kind of reckoning, like it doesn't matter what you say to them. Like, hey, you know, maybe you should breathe out of a straw or doing these things. Like, you know, it's, it's very difficult to get somebody to take that leap and try something different. Yeah, and I mean, yeah, because those spirals can feel almost like very safe, right? Like, like when I really get going on a worry spiral, it can almost feel like more comfortable than not worrying because you think that by worrying, you can prevent things from

happening. Or maybe you're smarter than everyone else because you can see, you know, what everyone else can't see. If they could see what you see. Yeah. But yeah, and I would tell myself, like, well, I, I've always seen everything bad coming or like, but of course I haven't. Like, you know, I didn't see Trump coming. Like, I, there's a ton of stuff that I, that I haven't seen coming in my life. And I, yeah, but I definitely sympathize with the, I guess, desire to just keep thinking about bad things because you think that that will keep them at bay. I take it that you started doing these things. What are some of the other things that you did

and how effective have they been and what has stayed with you or stuck that has led to you being less neurotic? So the main thing that I did was this class called MBSR, which is a meditation class. It's called mindfulness-based stress reduction. And in studies, it's been proven to work about as well as Lexapro.

And it's kind of simple when you describe it. It's 45 minutes a day of mindful meditation. And then every week there's a Zoom or in-person gathering where they kind of do a PowerPoint presentation of like Buddhism for dummies. Like very, very basic broken down concepts from Buddhism that could be applied for stressful situations. The meditation was extremely difficult for me. It's very hard to focus on your breath, focus on anything but worrying for someone like me. So that was, I think, helpful to an extent, but actually part of it, the part of it that I think was more helpful for me was the Buddhism for Dummies part.

Like, I think I just needed someone to come at me with like aphorisms at the right time when I was truly desperate. And there was something about the shared setting and all of us kind of sharing our struggles and the teacher kind of telling you Buddhism's answer to these struggles that, you know, has existed for many centuries, it was kind of like a relief for it was, I don't believe in God, but people who are like, let go and let God, I kind of like let go and let the universe a little bit.

I don't know how else to describe it, but it was just like a little bit of a, you don't have to be in charge of everything working out perfectly was like the overarching message of that class. And that to me was like, I was like, okay. Like, you know what I mean? Like, it's not up to you. Yeah.

Why are you carrying this on your shoulders? Yeah. Why don't you just, you know, drop the rock and surrender a little bit? This is an ad by better help. We live in an age of infinite information, like this endless scroll of opinions on every, possible issue and protocols to optimize every single aspect of life. But information presupposes neither wisdom or truth. Because for that, you really need more, especially when it comes to

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You know, it's like, and in terms of what you just shared, you know, a lot of people come in to the program with very complicated opinions and emotions and histories with religion, faith, spirituality, et cetera. But fundamentally it is a spiritual program, but it's non-denominational that you get to call God whatever you

you want or higher power, the universe, or even just the collective group of people that between and betwixt them, you know, share a wisdom that you don't have. Like, that's a power greater than you. And in this Buddhism app community, like there was a shared wisdom there that you were able to tap into.

But fundamentally, it's about like letting go. Like, neuroticism is about this clutch, right? And when you realize, like, I'm not in control here. Like, there's more going, on that I like like humbling yourself that you're not all powerful is this um cathartic relief yeah it really was like that for me um one of the things one of the little aphorisms that i came across um that i that i keep coming back to in the course of researching that chapter was actually from david axelrod the democratic strategist um but i'm very dc and he was kind of

describing what it's like to work really hard on a political campaign. And then, you know, you're working like 100 hours a week. You're doing everything you can to get your guy elected. And then come election day, like, you have no control, you know, and, you know, you could lose in a huge way and you have no say in the matter. And it's, you know, it is what it is. And he the way, what he tells himself is all we can do is everything we can do. Essentially just means like you can push really, really hard, you can try hard, but then you ultimately have to let go. You cannot control the outcome and you have to just be okay with that.

And that for me has been really helpful in a lot of ways. You know, book launch, parenting, just day-to-day life. Like you can set yourself up for success. You can set your kid up for success. And then you just have to take your hands off. off the wheel because you can't control everything. Not only can you not control everything. I mean, Olga, what do you honestly think that you can control?

So I, going into this, I thought, I basically thought that if people were smart, they could basically make their lives run flawlessly. And that when my life didn't run flawlessly, it was because I wasn't being smart. That was like my, theory that I, that I had, which is not correct. But I'll still, I'm going to pressure you.

I'm going to keep with this. Like, what do you think you have control over? I mean, oh, God, what do I have control over? Like, the pants that I put on every morning. I don't know. Like, I have no. I think meditation has been very helpful to me in helping me really, really get,

like really understand that truly the only thing I have control over is my behavior, like how I respond to externalities. And everything is an externality that I can't control. Like I can't even necessarily control what my mind is doing all the time. Like it has, it's running its own thing often and the more I meditate, the more agency I feel I have over that.

But it's really just what is my behavior, like, how am I showing up in the world right now? You know, I can't even control, you know, what's gonna happen a moment from now. Maybe you'll storm out of here. Like, you know, who knows, you know what I mean? How dare you ask me? But there's a piece in that, but also like a focus.

Like, okay, well, now that I know that, and I know that when I behave in this way, I'm setting myself up for a higher possibility that X, Y, and Z might happen. But if I comport myself in these other ways, that all these smart people who lived before me seem to say lead you towards a better life. And I do that consistently over time.

My experience is that my life gets better. But it's better because I'm not attempting to get involved in controlling anything else outside of that. Yeah, I think that's really smart. Something that has done for me is to make me more aware of anxious spirals and kind of just wave at them as they go by, if that makes sense.

Like I can't emphasize enough how much I was... Being more neutral about them. Yes, like I was hitting myself with not just the double arrow, but the triple arrow and the fourth and fifth. Like, I was hitting myself with so many arrows because, like, okay, I will give you a very, very recent example. Yesterday, we drove down to Laguna Beach to hang out with a friend of mine

and we had that situation. The parking was challenging. The beach we initially had in mind, like the swell was too big and we weren't going to be able to get in the water, so we had to change locations and it was like kind of a production. And the whole time I was like,

it kept popping up like this little gopher. It was like, your friend is mad at you for not making this unfold perfectly. Like your friend, she's mad at you. Like, how dare you? like not control the temperature of the water, the swells, the parking, like the Laguna Beach layout. And I, it was very real to me in the moment. I was like, oh my God, she's mad, she's mad. I need to resolve this like very quickly so she won't get mad. And I kind of like,

I think it was probably from my Buddhism kind of, or I don't know, therapy, some combination of all the stuff I did. I was kind of like, this is so silly. Like, she's not mad. If she looks grumpy, It's probably just because, like, we're all kind of grumpy because this isn't, like, going super well. Like, you know, or like, and like, as soon as we get in the water, we'll feel fine. Like, you know, it was, I, and it, it, but that kind of moment of clarity of, like, you're kind of anxiously spiraling and that's okay, but, like, you don't have to buy into this spiral and try to fix things just because it's there.

Yeah, noticing it as it's happening from a distance, as opposed to indulging it and self-identifying with it. Yeah, and also not beating myself up for the spiral. Right. It's like, okay, you're gonna have a spiral because that's kind of what you do. This is where curiosity comes in, which is a big piece here, right?

Talk about your relationship with curiosity. So Judd Brewer is the curiosity guy. Yeah. And his kind of method for treating neuroticism is to get curious about its effect in your body. And this could not be less relatable to me at the start of my project. I have like basically no connection to my body or I started out that way. Like I would end up with like in PT with like all these like cramps in my shoulders and things

and have like no idea where they came from after a stressful week. You know, I would, yeah, I would like I also am like one of those people who bumps into things because I just am not very aware of where I am in space. all up in your head all the time. So he's like, pay attention to how anxiety feels in your body. And I was like, it's like, that's like saying like pay attention to the purple elephant in the room or something. You know, it's like, what are you talking about?

There's no such thing. But just asking that question illustrates the detachment. Yes. That you're detached from your physical being. Yeah. And I really found that it was a good way in particular with panic attacks, which is not my like main issue, but when I do have. help them that, um, again, just taking a second and thinking like, oh, wow, my heart's beating

really fast. Like, huh, my like, uh, you know, my breath is, is like, you know, I'm breathing pretty deeply. Um, to me, that was a good way of breaking out of the panic attack and kind of once again, just getting a little bit friendlier with it, maybe, or just, um, less like, oh my God, I can't have a panic attack right now. You know, I'm in the middle of work or I'm in the middle of X, Y, Z. This happens to me when I'm, sometimes when I'm giving a big talk in front of an audience, I still occasionally have, like, my heart, like, pounds in my chest. And I start to think that people can hear it somehow. And so previously, my response to this was to, like, yell at myself internally and say, like, stop pounding, stop, like, you know, chill out heart. And, of course,

that does not make your heart chill out. So now I'm just like, huh, there it is again. It's pounding. It's going really fast. I have a fast heart rate because, like, I'm getting ready to give this talk. And that's okay. Like, that's part of what happens when I give talks. And like that, it just, like, kind of, I don't know,

it lets you take a step back from whatever's happening and whatever the anxious sensations are. Yeah, the mindfulness, the awareness that comes with the practice of meditation that gives you just that extra space like that moment where you are presented with a choice of how to respond

rather than just, you know, reflexively reacting. Yeah. That becomes huge, you know, over time. Mm-hmm. Are you doing the loving kindness meditation? You called Dan Harris a pussy. I know.

He was kind of mad at me, but then I think he got over it. I heard the podcast. Like I said you did with him, he was actually like, I loved it. So Dan, Dan's book helped me so much because he started out as an anxious journalist who didn't believe in meditation and, like, hated all this stuff. He could be your higher power. Yeah, I kind of needed someone like that because some of the stuff that I was reading

when I was trying to get into meditation was like too esoteric and, like, it was for people who were already very zen and I needed someone who was not Zen and, you know, moved in that direction. So Dan's book was really helpful to me, 10% happier. Yeah, I don't do the loving kindness explicitly anymore. I have to be honest. I don't play the tape and sit there and do it. I try to just like sort of have it. I was so not loving or kind to myself before

that even just in the moment being like, you made a mistake, it's okay. You know, like everyone makes mistakes. that's like huge progress for me. That's like night and day. So I, but I don't do it actively anymore. On some level, like this is, you know, your message is the same. It's like a 10% happier message, you know.

It's like you're not an entirely different person, but you're probably 10% happier than you were before you launched into this experiment. Yeah, I mean, even small changes on these. I mean, I think I've moved more than 10% on my, traits that I was working on, you know, because I was, like, doing everything I could. All right. And taking the test, you actually have the stats.

Yeah. I'm more than 10%. Yeah. You're beating Dan. I know. I'm so much better than him. You write 20% happier. Yeah, 20% happier.

Take that. Fuck that guy. Yeah, but it is, I mean, no one is ever going to feel like, oh, I'm a completely different person. I'm completely unrecognizable now. You know, you are just going to feel like, You're up for more challenges. You feel more capable of taking a new type of job, maybe.

You feel okay, like facing the day without alcohol. You know, yeah, meditation is maybe an all right idea. You know, it's all going to be things like this. I actually did. I made friends, like, by doing the book. And that's like, I mean, that was huge for me. I hadn't made a new friend in years. Really?

Yeah. Yeah. My friend Alex. Yeah, I'm like, sad to hear that, but happy. That I stopped doing that, yeah. A lot of this is, again, like back to the kind of AA framework. It's, it's a lot of like fake it till you make it, like act as if, which brings up this idea of, of authenticity, right?

Like, okay, I'm going to do this thing. if I want to be, you know, a sociable person who's, like, fun to talk to at a party, then I have to, like, act as if I'm somebody who does that, right? And that's deeply uncomfortable and probably feels deeply inauthentic. So how do you, like, reconcile that, like, sense of inauthus? We kind of talked about it earlier, but, like, that sense of inauthenticity with the aspiration. Yeah, I guess I personally just don't put a ton of. of stock in authenticity.

Like, I, I just don't, because, because we're all acting so differently all the time. Like, you have that idea of multiple authenticity. Yeah, like, yeah, like, there's some, yeah, so I, yeah, I write that we all have multiple authentities, but, I don't, so when I was pregnant, my mom was like, I can't imagine you as a mother, and I was like, oh, my God, like, that's so, that's scary, because I was like, one of the big fears that I had that I was like not the sort of person who could be a mom. What did she mean by that, though? She just thought that I didn't have the personality of like what you think of as a mom.

Like the nurturing. Yeah, like I wasn't like a cuddly nurturing like kind of person. And I was like maybe she's right. Like maybe I don't have it in me to be a mom. I'm not. I don't have the right personality. And what I kind of realized and like this, my book was already done and I had my kid and that wasn't an experiment.

But I was like, your kid brings it out in you. Like you become like this nurturing. Like this, the biggest like hard ass, hard charging, you know, executive lady,

you know, take no prisoners, like girl boss is going to like come home and like coo and sing baby beluga because like, you realize,

you rise to the occasion when you have these goals in your life that are really important to you. And I'm probably not like an Instagram mom. Like I probably, you know, I don't make homemade goldfish crackers for him or whatever, but I, like, I think I'm a good mom and I think I'm nurturing and cuddly. It's just that, and I think that's authentic. I think that's

authentically me. It just wasn't before I had this goal of being a good mom. What is the most surprising experience that you've had by, you know, I'm going to put on a new hat and it doesn't feel like it fits, but I'm just going to keep wearing it until it feels like it's mine, right? Only to wake up later and be like, oh, this is my hat. You know, like, I don't even think about it anymore. Like, I am different in this way. Definitely the extraversion element. I, if I'm being honest, I thought it would be a little going through the motion Z. Like, I thought I would, okay, I'm going to do improv. I'm going to do, you know, I'm going to make friends and like, I'll stop talking to them as soon as the book is, as soon as I turn this in, then I can go back and shut the door

on everyone. Go back to watching my Netflix shows. And that really, like, didn't happen. Like, I kind of realized that I, I have this desire to connect with people. I have a desire to meet more people. Like, I haven't met all the people that I'll ever meet, you know, in college. Like, I, um, yeah, I kind of realize that I need to, I'm someone who needs to, I'm someone who needs to to reach out to people, to connect with people and share experiences and it makes my life better. It's not just like, I have to check this box because it's like eating my broccoli.

It's something to look forward to, it's something to, yeah, help me feel more stable. Do you think because after turning the initial article in and then I kind of jokingly said relapse, but you did kind of like go back to your old patterns and then did that create a moment of clarity where you're like, oh, like I thought, I could just go back and now I'm back less happier than I was when I was doing those things

that I so deeply didn't want to do. Yeah, maybe it was the quote-unquote relapse. I mean, I was drinking a lot during that time, so in a way... All right, well, so you have a co-founding variable in there? Yeah, exactly, yeah. I think it was also just like, like, I did feel happier. Like, everything that I did, you know, all the personality traits that I changed, involved an element of like the person generally feels better afterward.

Like even introverts who are told to go behave like extroverts for a few minutes, then they go back and the researchers ask them like, how do you feel? And they're like, I feel great. I feel awesome. Sometimes they even say I feel more true to myself than I did before, which is kind of funny when it comes to authenticity. But yeah, I noticed the benefits for me. and I noticed that, you know, the anxiety wasn't doing as much for me as I thought.

Like, I can still achieve. Like, I still wrote a book. I still... I mean, that's huge to be like, I don't need that thing that I thought that I needed. In fact, it was holding me back. Yeah, I mean, it's writing the to-do list, you know, a hundred times as opposed to one time. Like, you only really need that one time. You only need to plan.

You don't need to worry about the plans or worry, you know, um, incessantly about things going wrong. Um, and to me, that was, that was kind of a big breakthrough. And honestly, like, gives me space to do more stuff because I'm not trapped in worry cycles all the time. Yeah. You mentioned earlier, uh, like, volunteering at the the soup kitchen. Um, so much of, of like, worry and anxiety is a form of self-obsession. Uh, and the antidote to that, um, um, so much of, of like, worry and anxiety is a form of self-obsession. Uh, and the antidote to is to like go help somebody else, like invest yourself in something bigger than you

to be of service in whatever way. Like it's, again, it's another like AA thing. Like if you just, if you wanna break the cycle of this pattern that you're in, turn your gaze outward on somebody who could actually benefit from you showing up for them, even if it's in a small way. Did that come up in the research

or what has been your, experience with playing around with that? Yeah, I mean, all the studies say that like volunteering, you know, feels like making, I don't know, it depends on what study you read, but it's like hundreds of thousands of dollars more a year, you know, if you volunteer for a certain number of hours. And I think it is because of that, because it is very easy to become self-obsessed, especially if you're a creative person. Like, a lot of us, like, have succeeded kind of because we are self-obsessed. We're like going to move to the place that gives us the most opportunities and like, you know, work a million hours and like do whatever it takes and like you're always

thinking about yourself in your career and what's next. And that has a downside, which is you're always worrying about your career and what's next. And I think it is true that like connecting with other people, sharing your struggles, helping other people, it does help break that self-obsession a little bit. And it just makes your inner weather balmier, as Dan likes to say. One of the things that I noticed in the agreeableness chapter is that every single thing I did involved other people. And like less the journalistic like, what did you know and when did you know it, but more just like sharing experiences, kind of like they do in AA. And, you know, sharing your story, relating to one another, giving each other advice, you know,

what have you. I honestly think that was like the biggest thing that boosted my agreeableness was like being in community with so many different groups of people. Because I just don't really do that. Like I don't go to- Sharing their experience. Yeah, like I don't go to church. You wrote an AA book and you didn't even know it. Have you ever been doing an A&A meeting? I have for reporting. Yeah. And then like when I was really, when I lived in L.A. in grad school, I was really lonely and I was like, maybe I should join AA. Except I wasn't like addicted to alcohol. That's like in, you're like, what's her name in Fight Club, who goes to all the meetings, you know,

because she's lonely, but she doesn't have any of the problems. Yeah. Yeah, that would be me. I did talk to a lot of people in recovery for the book, though. Yeah. There's another adage that I love. There's so many, like, stupid phrases. But one that I really like is mood follows action.

just, it goes back to this, this idea that it's, that it's action-based. Like, if you come into AA and, you know, choose your, choose your malfunction, like, okay, you know, you have a problem with drinking or drugs. You go in, you can't imagine, you know, what it, like, getting a week sober or whatever, but you just have to, like, you know, once, one day at a time, one hour at a time, like, do what somebody who doesn't drink or use does, you know, act as if. Um, And whatever sense of discomfort that you have around it, the mood that you want to inhabit is on the other side of like taking the action you don't want to take.

Yeah. And we have this idea like, I'll do it when I feel inspired to do it, you know? And of course, you never do it, right? Like I'll go to improv when I feel like improvving. You know, it's like, no. You're never going to feel that way. Yeah. And that's behavioral activation theory is like a big part of this.

And that just is like you go out and do the thing and then, you know, mood follows action. You will feel a certain way after you've done it. And so that's really a lot of what personality change involves because you aren't ever going to feel like improving. You're not ever going to feel like quitting drinking. I mean. And some of them were kind of interesting because I talked to one. this didn't make it into the book, but I talked to one guy who quit drinking,

and then it, like, set off this, like, positive chain reaction of other things he wanted to change. And then he actually ended up changing his whole career. He was a lawyer, and he's now a therapist, or in school to be a therapist. But it was, like, the drinking was, like, I don't know, the thing, like, once he got past that discomfort,

it was, like, all these other things were, like, suddenly more possible. Oh, I could do that thing. I never thought I could do. Like, it's a, any time you take those actions, no matter how small, they're esteem building. And they give you a greater sense of empowerment that you can use in other areas of your life.

That's the beautiful thing about it. They're transferable, I guess. Yes. Right? Yeah. But there is a bit of a weird conflict here that I guess is sort of Buddhist. Like, there's a self-acceptance piece. Like you have to accept, you have to sort of see yourself clearly, you know.

to identify those patterns, to, you know, understand, like, the behaviors that aren't serving you, like, with clear eyes and not judge yourself for that, but, like, truly accept yourself for that, while also accepting that there needs to be things that need to change in order for you to feel as happy and as fulfilled as you know that you can be. Yeah. I still, I kind of wish this was not called personality. I was just called, like, something else that people are like where does mindset attitude personality choice like obviously it is like it's sort of like like we're trying to put a hard science label on something that really resist it yeah yeah um i guess the way that i like settled this and like everyone's going to settle it a different way is that um i'm just like

not that attached to my personality like i i accept myself like my inner core being like the olga who's out in the trying to do things, but I'm not like, and you have to do it by being an introvert and like or by being super neurotic. Like I kind of, I'm very loosely attached to the traits that I use to get there, basically. And I, for me, that's like what feels healthiest, but I feel like everyone else comes to a different way to reconcile those two. What's the thing that you're still holding on to? Like when you talk to your therapist and you're like, okay, you're still doing that. How's that working out? Oh, great question.

Like the thing that you're just really still don't want to release your grip on, even though you know it's not good. Yeah. I still, okay, so we have a kid now and he has to meet milestones. And milestones are like a straight-a-student, like. How old is he? Like fodder. So he's 16 months, but, you know, they have like, are they rolling over?

Are they blah, blah, blah. So he, like, when he doesn't meet the milestones, I lose it. I, like, completely, like, I call a pediatrician, like, four thousand times. I, like, make him all these appointments. He's already in all these different, like, therapies to, like, try to meet the milestones. He's in, like, occupational therapy, even though he's a baby. I really, like, I get obsessive about the milestones and, like, thinking that I can, like, make the milestones happen faster around a certain timeline.

So I've been trying to like realize that the milestones may happen when they happen and that I don't have perfect control over them. I think this is a really big piece. I think this is really important. I just know for myself, I have four kids. They're all older now, like our youngest is 17, oldest is 30. You talk in the book about blaming your parents. Like we look at our parents and we want to like point the finger,

oh, I'm this way because of them or whatever. And there's an unhealthy aspect of that. Like, we have to take responsibility and agency for ourselves. But also, we should recognize that we've inherited, you know, traits and patterns as a result of our upbringing. And we all have unhealthy versions of those baked into ourselves as a result of whatever experiences, you know, the environment in which we were raised or, you know,

I think the word like childhood trauma is sort of frown around a little too cavalierly. but, you know, nobody had a perfect childhood. And so there's residue of that within all of us that then shows up in our behavior patterns when we're adults. And I think that we have a responsibility to transcend those for ourselves, of course, but really for our children.

Like, are you going to perpetuate this generational pattern that could be traced back, you know, how far back into your, family tree, or are you going to arrest it in its tracks so that your child doesn't have to not only inherit that pattern, but have to, you know, kind of suffer the consequences of you behaving like that in their presence. And that's, that's the huge, like, for me, like, that's the whole thing with parenting. Oh, yeah. And so this is like you're, you're like, this is your Mount Everest, I think. Yeah. Yeah, being a cycle breaker is, uh, is challenging. It's,

Yeah. And then you do all this work and then you're, you're tired and under duress. And then suddenly you're like doing the thing. You know, you behave in the way you promised that you wouldn't. It's so deeply baked into us. Oh, yeah. I mean, I think he was, I mean, it was like just recently. We started out like, we're going to be gentle parents. We're never going to yell at him. And we're never going to punish him. Like, in any way. We're going to be super nice. He started doing this thing where he would pull the like childproof cover out of the side. socket and then to like double up on the danger he would put that in his mouth which is a choking hazard and then he would try to stick his finger in the socket and i was a triple threat constantly like keeping him from doing this like please stop stop stop no no let's play with something else like you're like asleep deprived trying to keep a toddler from doing this thing so i like pull him away from it

he like crawls back over and like does it again and i like let it rip i was like what did i just fucking say like yeah and i realized i was like oh that's like a voice from my past like what did i just fucking say like you know he's jud jud says like be curious about that yeah exactly yeah like why did i why did i reach for that phrasing um but it is it's like they do test you and they test like what is your instinctual reaction to um difficulty and like you know he doesn't know he's like oh this is cool. That's why our children are our teachers because they hold this mirror up to the truth of like who you are, you know what I mean? Yeah. And what a gift you're in a position to give your son because you did all this work, you know, and you took it really seriously and you made

all of these changes. Like that is an incredible blessing that, you know, almost no one does. Like it's really an incredible act of service for your child. I mean, to the world also, to like, here's what I learned, you know, have at it or whatever. But it's an amazing thing, I think, what you've done. Yeah. Yeah, I hope it, I mean, I hope it works out. Maybe it was all for him. And like, I don't know.

If he has a better childhood because of it, then it was worth it. Well, the funny, yeah, it's like, when you're a new parent, you're like, here's how it's going to go. You're going to be like this. And it's like, I'm always like, oh, yeah, okay, well, check in. I'll see you in a couple years, like, let me know how that's going. Only organic snacks. I mean, this will test, you know, all of your control issues, you know,

every idea that you have about how, you know, who this person is going to be and what they're going to do and how you're going to, you know, parent them through it. Like, you know, you get really tested on that stuff. Yeah. For your growth and evolution. Right, right, right. Yeah, I have tried to resist, like, you know, I know people were like, I'm going to have kids and they're going to be pro tennis players just like me.

And I'm like, I would avoid. putting that out there because if they get a whiff that you want them to be a pro tennis player they're gonna like do the opposite also like why do you need them to be like what is missing inside of you

that that's so important to you that they need to be that like what's unfulfilled in you that you need them to fill it for you yeah like that's not great yeah I don't know we're we're trying really hard to avoid like putting our stuff on him

yeah it's hard you know it's hard and I just I just think like any change even, you know, no matter how small, is just a really difficult thing that I think people make sound easy and it's not. But in your work, in your personal experience,

like for the person who, you know, is stuck or is like I can't get out of this like self-defeating loop or I just constantly get in my way or I am neurotic or I'm, you know, I'm terrified of putting myself in, in the mildest of social situations. Like, what are some of the tools that you learn that you practice or that some of these experts have advocated for

that can get these people, you know, off the couch or in the world and putting this stuff into motion? I will give a concrete tip and then a more esoteric tip. Concrete tip, if you are someone who has trouble, Like, let's say you're like, okay, I just moved to a new city. I need to meet people. I am having trouble meeting people. I would just sign up for an activity that recurs regularly and that you don't have to organize

because it's always going to be there whether you show up or not. But it would be better if you showed up. So like you've already committed to bring the snacks or you've committed to whatever. It's tennis and they need someone to play doubles. Like I, it's too hard for introverts to go from couch to like flourishing. social life. We need something to like push us out of the house. And, you know, it can be a meetup. It can be a book club. It can be anything where you're not texting people. Let's get together Wednesday. Let's get together Thursday. Whatever it is. So that's my specific tip. I would say like

more broadly, this comes from Stephen Hayes and is like kind of toward the end of the book. But I would just think about like your values and what you like want in life. I would go back to that definition of from Nathan Hudson and the other change researchers and think about, like, you know, what is it that you want? Like, what does life look like when you're on your deathbed or before you're on your deathbed? What does life look like in middle age? And, you know, what's keeping you from doing that?

For me, a big part of, I like knew I wanted an adult child late in life. And the only way to have an adult child is, of course, to have a baby child, but I was so anxious about becoming a parent. That was a huge obstacle for me. And so you really have to think about connecting your behavior to your broader goals and your broader values because that's the only thing that's going to motivate you

to actually do all this stuff, which is hard day to day. It gets further complicated when you have an intermodel telling you that you're undeserving of these things or you're not good enough. You know, I think a lot of people have that. I suffer from that, you know, from time to time. That's constantly, you know, defeating you from that impulse

to take that first action. Yeah, it can be tough. I talked to one person, Zach Hambrick, who his parents were, like, dropping him off at college, and they were like, we'll probably be picking you up soon because you're going to fail out. And, like, talk about inner monologue. Like, he did.

He had this monologue that he's not good at school. He's not academic. And what worked for him and for a lot of other people is actually, like, finding someone else who's kind of like that, who's kind of at your same level, and, like, partnering with them to do whatever it is that you want to do. Like, there's this element of, like, healthy peer pressure that, like, you learn strategies from one another. You kind of, you motivate one another.

You give each other ideas. And, you know, it won't work if it's something. that you're, is like falling far behind you and it won't work if it's someone who's like so far ahead of you that you don't know how they got there. A lot of times I think of mentorship is like, I need to pick, you know, someone amazing, like, you know, and it really, it can be someone who's kind of at your same level, like as long as they're dedicated to the same goal. So that's what he did. He found like a study buddy. They went through college together. And he's actually like a tenured psychology professor now. Wow. Going from like making D's, I don't know.

You're such a high agency person and, you know, thinking about your backstory, which we didn't even really talk about. I mean, you bounced around. You grew up in like Odessa, Texas, right? Midland, yeah. Friday Night Lights Territory. Daughter of Russian immigrants and really had to like make your way in the world to become this person.

And you did. And it's something to be proud of. but when I think about you, I'm like, oh, well, this is a person who, when they put their mind to something, like, they make it happen, right? So why should it be any different when it comes to personality change, you know? But then you read the stories in here and you're like, oh, my gosh, she's so human, you know, like she has all the fears and frailties that we all harbor secretly or publicly.

But I am curious about the person who does, who is living a life in which they don't feel like their actions matter, you know, like they feel disenfranchised or disconnected and things haven't worked out. Like, they don't have that track record to say, like, oh, I did this thing in the past and here's how it moved my life forward. I would say that they probably do have a track record. Like, they probably have something they're passionate about. You know, it may not be their job. You know, it may not be the city that they live in.

But there might be a hobby there or there might be. some sort of interest that they have or create, I don't know, creative spark or most of us want something. Like, you know, it's very rare to be so Buddhist that you're okay with like no desires. Then you've actually transcended the mortal coin. You're enlightened at that point, right?

Congratulations. Yeah, yeah. So I would just like pursue that. You know, maybe it's not through work. You know, the people that I met in improv, like one of them was like an accounting professor who lived in the suburbs and like his kids had gone in college

and he like didn't have any friends and like I don't know I mean that's that's not like a picture of wow everyone wants to be this guy but you know he decided to do improv because it was like it would get him out of his head you know something fun he met people

it wasn't let's get drunk together you know it was creative it nurtured a part of him that you know maybe his daily life didn't really. And I think that's okay. I think it's okay to have, you know, kind of a nine to five and have your interesting thing be afterward. But the point, the most salient point in that for me is just the practicality of it. Like I think, you know, we were talking about like, what's the difference between personality and attitude and mindset? The same applies when you start talking about

values and purpose and meaning and passion. And they're all words, you know, that we share in a well-intentioned way. But I think, you know, it's also confusing. Like, I don't know what my passion is. Like, what's my purpose, you know? And I think it's paralyzing to a lot of people or makes them feel bad. Like, I don't know what my purpose is. I guess I'm supposed to, like, and I don't. Which is why I brought up curiosity earlier. Because, like, we all have something we're curious about and even if it's just like what's the one thing you're willing to what's the one little step you can take you know to kind of nourish that curiosity and developing that habit alone kind of like just starts to move your path in a little bit of a different direction without worrying

about like what your passion or your purpose is yeah I would I would not try to identify a passion as your first step those things happen as a consequence of acting as if and faking it till you make it and just, you know, getting out into the world and doing things that are uncomfortable until they're not. Yeah, Carol Dweck had a great study. This isn't in the book, but I wrote about it a few years ago where she, like, basically found that every college student thinks they have to find their passion,

and that should be their major. That's like that's an act of violence. Yeah. I have a 17-year-old daughter right now, and we're going and visiting schools, and she feels like she's supposed to know what, you know, because they're like, declare your major and it's like how is like you're not supposed to know you shouldn't know like

you're the whole point of going is to like explore your curiosity and figure out what excites you yeah and it's you know it's not giving up on your passion to change your major either like it's part of part of learning and and some of this yeah it can be developed it's you know as you get better at something you're like oh my passion is you know neurobiology or whatever um you know because you happen to be good at it well that brings up the whole subject of of like quitting that you bring up in here too, right? As a very conscientious person, like probably quitting is difficult. Like once you say you're going to do something, like then saying, yeah, I'm not going to do

this anymore. Is that hard for you? It was hard and I wanted to not have too much of an escape route for the book where it's like as soon as I didn't like something, I could just quit it because you can't, you can. Yeah. So it was like the meetups. that you were... Yeah, like, do I keep doing these meetups

that are like death marches sometimes or do I, you know, like, you know, can I quit them? I think like, I mean, everyone's going to come to a different decision. Two kind of things on that note is like, first of all, like, I would get less attached to the specific activities that you're doing and more to like what you're working toward. So if you're trying to make more friends, you know, but you're not any good at pickleball,

you don't have to stick with pickleball. you can do something else, book club or whatever. So you can change up the activities that are getting you there. And the personality change research, they give them like a list of different things they can do. It's not like you have to do improv. The other thing is something that I've had to realize with having a kid is that like you can have like seasons of your life

where you do different things and that's okay. Like that's not giving up or quitting or you're not being true to whatever your mission is. but like when you have a newborn, you're just not going to be able to have as active of a social life unless all of your friends come to your house like during the baby's wake windows. There's going to be times of your life

when you're maybe solely focused on work or focused on having a new baby or, you know, whatever other thing. And it's okay as long as it doesn't, you know, take over your life. Is that or has that been a challenge for you as a striver? So our, like, a baby and newborn experience was so all-consuming that it was, there wasn't really. It removed the choice. Yeah, like I didn't, like all my friends live in D.C. a 45-minute drive away. And they're like, hey, come get drunk with us.

And I was like, I cannot. So that part was hard, but babies are just so all-consuming that you can't. you're like, this is the season I'm in, I guess the baby decided. It does get harder, like, later on, like, I'm here. He's with my parents, and I'm like, am I a bad mom for enjoying myself? No, a bad mom doesn't wonder whether they're a bad mom. Yeah, maybe. Of all the things that you tried and explored,

what was the most, like the most deeply uncomfortable of all of them, maybe beyond improv. Maybe it was improv, but we talked about that. The most deeply uncomfortable in some ways was this conversation workshop I went to in London, which was all about having

like deeper and more meaningful conversations with people and how to do that. And it was very interesting and good subject matter. But I think I just have like a cultural difference with British people where they're so reserved. And even in my introverted state, I am just a lot more garrulous and like overshary at baseline than they are.

And I think it like maybe comes off as rude or just like not culturally like what they want to be happening. What was the context though? We were all in a room together and just talking about conversations and having deep conversations with one another for like three days. But you're going deeper than they are?

No. What was it that was uncomfortable about it? So she would like ask us a question like, oh, has anyone ever had this experience? And like, it was just like dead silence in the room. Like a long, like no one raising their hand, like a long, long, long silence. So you're like, I have to be the extrovert here?

I'm like, I, so I would like raise, I was like, did she want me to like volunteer? or is this like a normal British silence that I need to just be silent through? You know what I mean? Like there was just like some cultural things where... And then I felt like I was more willing to just like say whatever I was thinking.

And for them it really was like... Like the class kind of gave them like permission to like dig deeper and like share more than they would normally share. In that context, though, you're like the leader that you're like... You've got the American, you know, kind of like showing them how to like, you know, Like talk about their feelings or something, you know? Yeah. I was wondering toward the end, like, if they're like,

I hope I never see this girl again because she talks too much. I don't know. I really, it was challenging because then, like, we were strangers, basically, and we were like, we would have these conversations where it's like the person shares something. And then, like, you, some of the times we would have like these scripted lists of questions and they were like, what did that mean to you? Or why was that important to you?

which I've learned is like a very good conversational strategy when you kind of don't understand why the person's telling you something. But like you met this person like, I don't know, 30 minutes ago and suddenly you're asking like, you know, what did that like breakup mean to you? You know, it's like you're probably used to it as a podcast host but it's in day-to-day life it can be a little like strange, I guess, I don't know.

Yeah, well, you know, I keep harping back onto it. but like you could go to AA meetings. It's like wearing it on their sleeve, you know what I mean? Yeah. But is that being an extrovert or agreeableness? It was just like testing my comfort with being in a situation where I want to be liked and I don't totally understand the culture. Right, I see.

So the discomfort with like not knowing what the rules are. Yeah. And if you don't know what the rules are, then how are you going to people please and curry favor and feel like you belong? Yes, because even if you go on a bumble BFF date in your city, like going on a... Which I didn't know what that was until I read her book. It's like a dating app to make friends. Yes, yes.

I didn't even know that was a thing. So let's say, so I like, you know, would go meet up with someone who works like for Congress. Like it's not that different. Like they're not that different from me. I kind of get how the conversation is going to go. We have basically the same values. Like we're going to talk for an hour to 90 minutes. minutes, we're both going to have one drink and then we're going to pay and leave. Like,

I kind of get it, you know, and we're both not going to ask anything too weird. But in that setting, it was so strange, like the questions we were asking each other and the like, just the way we were approaching the conversations. And then I think I just, like, I don't fit into British culture. Well, speaking of conversations and not fitting in, I'd love for you to share a little of it about what you learned about how to do this more agreeably. I mean, obviously, we're all experiencing, you know, a very interesting moment right now in which disagreeability is paramount and our ability to just share the same space with people and and communicate with some degree of compassion

and commitment to listening and understanding is very much not happening right now. And it's like if we can't figure that out, then democracy will not survive. You know, it's an existential crisis to the health and future of our country, I think. And it all starts with how two people sit across from each other and look each other in the eye

and, you know, communicate and exchange. And this is being threatened profoundly at the moment. So what did you learn about conversation and how to communicate with people who don't share the same worldview and it's an inflamed situation where every word feels like a provocation? Yeah, it can be so challenging. So there's a psychologist I quote in the book who,

and I'm going to butcher the quote, I'm sorry, It's like disagreement raises the possibility that we are stupid or wrong, you know. And if you think about it, that's how it can feel. Because if I'm telling you that like X, Y, Z happened, you're telling me that ABC happened. You know, one of us is right, you know, or presumably, you know, or one of us is wrong. And then what does that mean about the person who's wrong? Especially when you're self-identifying with that idea. Oh, yeah, yeah.

what I would try to do is like break out of the exact facts of whatever you're talking about and try to get at the deeper layer of why that person is telling you what they're telling you. Like they're making some sort of bid for connection even with whatever thing they're saying that is blatantly wrong in your view, you know? Or, you know, just like how did that person come about those views? Why are those views important to them? So I guess I'll give a real example. My parents like Vladimir Putin.

And sometimes I, well, I haven't been doing this, but I sometimes think that our conversations about him would be more productive if I was like, what do you like about him? Like what, or what does he do for you? What does he represent for you? Why is he meaningful? Like, why are you telling me about him?

Like, what do you want me to say in response to this? Like, because when they, like, come to me and tell me about Vladimir Putin, like, they're trying to do something. They're trying to either, like, say, like, hey, this is really important to me and I want it to be important to you, too. hey like I'm looking for something to talk with you about you know it's there's some underlying thing there that is not just like Vladimir Putin the person like and I with admitting that I have not successfully done this yet I think that if we try to I mean not to make the whole world like a mushy kumbaya thing but like if we try to get more into the feelings that people have that are motivating what they're saying,

that can be a more interesting and fruitful conversation than, you know, whatever the specifics are of it. You know, because it's probably something like, I feel like Russians are disrespected wherever they go, and he makes me feel respected, you know? And it's like, oh, okay, why do you feel Russians are disrespected? Why is respect important to you? What are sometimes that you have felt respected?

Like, there are so many interesting questions and avenues in that direction that aren't like, but do you remember when on June 27th he said X, Y, Z, you know? Yeah, that's not a productive strategy. But I think the path to empathy and understanding is going beneath it to try to understand the motivation behind it. Because everybody's right from their own perspective, right? And they're being animated or motivated by something that they care about.

And that thing they care about is probably something you care about too and trying to find shared ground there. and trying to do it in the context of, you know, scenarios that are that are inflammatory, you know, makes it difficult, which brings it back to like mindfulness and all these other things that you shared about it because that allows you to inhabit that space a little bit more detached and not threatened by it

because you're not putting, you're not wagering your identity. Mm-hmm. Yeah. And I mean, you're- And to hold your own ideas more loose. yeah yeah yeah actually at that that conversation workshop that was a little a little weird um I shared that my parents have this belief because I was the overshare of the group and um there was another guy there who was like well you know like it kind of makes sense from their perspective right like if you know if I like moved abroad during like Obama's presidency I'd be

like he's amazing even if everyone like in that country didn't like him. There's a pride of where they grew up and it's probably hard for them and they feel lonely and you know they want to they want to hold on to you know what what was great about the place that they grew up in. Yeah. And you know are they exposing themselves to state sponsored propaganda? Like you know what's informing this? Yeah. Yeah. And so and that message is is probably selling them an idea that, you know, if you believed it to be true, like you would agree with also. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. And journalists do this all the time. You know, when we write stories about people, we're like, this person believes this, and that's why they want this. And this is the obstacle to them getting that, you know, and here's the story about it. And, you know, we don't start out with, like, interrogating their belief system or, you know, whatever it is they want. How have you found this just as a journalist?

who writes for the Atlantic and has written for the New York Times, like in this moment where, you know, there's a distrust of media, institutionalized media, and a certain regard about like coastal elitism with respect to this kind of writing, like when you go out in the world and you interview people or you tell people what you do, like do you run up against that kind of stuff?

Yeah, yeah, I do. I mean, it's gotten harder, for sure, like, than 10 years ago to interview, I guess I'll just say conservatives. Yeah, it's gotten harder because there's a lot of anti-media rhetoric. I mean, we try to reassure people, tell them what kind of story it's going to be, you know, tell them why we're looking to talk to them, give examples of other stories that have taken their ideas seriously. you know, that's kind of all you can do is like sort of be like, I come in peace and then like they can ultimately make the decision about whether or not to talk to you.

I have done stories though involving lots and lots of conservatives and I actually interviewed a January 6th participant. I mean, that's a perfect example of like, you know, what is motivating that person? Yeah, and I think it was like actually a really interesting experience because I was like, I could kind of see, like I would not do.

January 6 but I was like I get like why like you put all these things together to lead you to January 6th like I get where you were in your life and like what Donald Trump offered you and like why that led to you doing this because like yeah it just like kind of made sense to me she's she's also from my hometown which is it helped probably in helping it make sense to me but yeah I mean often like if you just tell people like look I want to understand your perspective on this I want I want to know what would make someone want to participate in January 6th um they're like okay yeah like I want to tell you and had you stayed in your hometown and lived that person's life like you would have made the same choice that she made possibly I mean yeah maybe at least you know

entertaining the the plausibility of that yeah yeah potentially yeah All right, final parting words. Like what is the overarching 10,000 foot view on personality and our agency to shift it that you want people to walk away with? I would say I wrote recently like on my substack that a better title for this book might have been you have it in you, which is just that if there's some challenge in your life or something that you're facing or something that you're facing or something. unfamiliar that you probably have it in you to face that challenge. Like you probably have the skills and the traits that are necessary to do that and you just need to nurture them. You need to go out and act as if fake it till you make it and rise to the occasion and you can. That don't let your personality determine the things that you do in life. Yeah, I think we're all,

we all have untapped potential that if we're courageous enough to face and wrestle with could make our lives better. I think, and I love that. It's a, you know, again, it's back to like agency. It's very empowering to hear that. I hope so. Yeah, it's beautiful.

What are you working on now? What's the next book? What's the next thing that you're asking yourself that you need to- What journey are you gonna go on now? What's wrong with you now? I've been writing a lot about parenting and like by my,

my struggles and successes such as they are. All right, well, I look forward to the parenting book. Thanks. Olga, this was great. Thank you so much. I really appreciate it. Yeah, thank you so much. Me, but better.

I am me but a little bit better for having talked to you today. And I think everybody out there listening or watching will be a little bit better for checking out your book, your wonderful book. So thanks for writing it. Thanks so much. Cheers. Peace. That's it for today. Thank you for listening. I truly hope you enjoyed the conversation. To learn more about today's guests, including links and resources related to everything discussed today, visit the episode page at richroll.com, where you can find the entire podcast archive, My Books, Finding Ultra, voicing change, and the plant power way.

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