The Rich Roll Podcast - Mentalist Oz Pearlman: Mind-Reading Secrets & The Ultramarathon Mindset

Episode Date: April 11, 2022

In today’s episode, Rich sits down with celebrity mentalist and ultramarathoner Oz Pearlman to discuss the art of mentalism, the ultra runner mindset, how to cultivate intuition, and leverage behavior for confidence, endurance & resilience. One of the world’s busiest and most in-demand entertainers, Oz is noted for his unique blend of magic and mentalism that always leaves the host and audience breathless. He has appeared in most major media outlets and his client list reads like a who’s who of politicians, professional athletes, A-list celebrities, and Fortune 500 companies. In addition, Oz is a 2:23 marathoner and has competed in some of the world’s most prestigious ultramarathons, including Badwater, WS100, and Spartathlon. The visually inclined can watch the magic transpire on YouTube. As always, the podcast streams wild and free on Apple Podcasts and Spotify. Pick up Rich’s lates book VOICING CHANGE Vol. II HERE. For full show notes and to read more about Oz, go HERE. Enjoy the show! Peace + Plants, Rich

The biggest part is not knowing how to do the things. It's knowing who to pick to do the right thing with. So what I do is more analyzing how people think, reverse engineering their decision-making, and some elements of body language reading, psychology, and honestly, group dynamics, social dynamics, knowing how people behave and studying that for decades. And then knowing how to entertain people.

That's the key word. It's entertainment. I'm not psychic. I don't pretend to know the future, but it's reading people and making it very entertaining and doing it in such a way that it's not explainable. Like the key is it's kind of you watch magic and you know somebody did something fast. My hands don't move fast. I just do stuff where I'm very good at guessing things. But in essence, yeah, I know how to observe people. I generally know how you're going to behave. And even in the moment where you think I'm very good at guessing things. But in essence, yeah, I know how to observe people. I generally know how you're going to behave. And even in the moment where you think,

I'm going to change my mind, I'm going to do something different right now, I know you're going to do that. And I'm doing it through means that have nothing to do with supernatural. I don't have a skill that you couldn't possess if you were willing to train for 20 years. The Rich Roll Podcast.

People of the internet. Well, here we are. How's it going? Good to have you. Good to be here. Welcome to the podcast. My guest today is a unique one. That's for sure.

He's a world-class mentalist. We'll get into what that means, don't worry. As well as a highly accomplished marathoner and ultra runner. His name is Oz Perlman. And if that name sounds familiar, perhaps it's because you caught his act on America's Got Talent in 2015, where week after week, this guy performed mind-blowing, never-before-seen mentalism routines

that made him essentially a household name overnight. Today, he's one of the world's busiest and most in-demand entertainers, with a client list that reads like a who's who of politicians, professional athletes, A-list celebrities, and Fortune 500 companies. He's appeared everywhere,

The Today Show, Ellen, Jimmy Fallon, where his unique blend of magic and mentalism always leaves the host and the audience breathless. Ose is nothing if not charismatic. As you'll soon see, he is just insanely skilled at his craft. It's a craft that is stunning to witness. And he's also super accomplished on foot,

racking up finishes at many of the world's most prestigious ultras like Badwater, Western States 100, the Spartathlon, as well as racking up a 223 marathon PR. A few more things I wanna add into the mix, but first. We're brought to you today by recovery.com. I've been in recovery for a long time. It's not hyperbolic to say that I owe everything good

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To find the best treatment option for you or a loved one, again, go to recovery.com. We're brought to you today by recovery.com. I've been in recovery for a long time. It's not hyperbolic to say that I owe everything good in my life to sobriety. And it all began with treatment and experience that I had that quite literally saved my life. And in the many years since, I've in turn helped many suffering addicts and their

loved ones find treatment. And with that, I know all too well just how confusing and how overwhelming and how challenging it can be to find the right place and the right level of care, especially because unfortunately, not all treatment resources adhere to ethical practices. It's a real problem. A problem I'm now happy and proud to share has been solved by the people at recovery.com, who created an online support portal designed to guide, to support, and empower you to find the ideal level of care tailored to your personal needs. They've partnered with the best global behavioral health providers to cover the full spectrum of behavioral health disorders, including substance use disorders, depression, anxiety, eating disorders, gambling addictions, and more.

Navigating their site is simple. Search by insurance coverage, location, treatment type, you name it. Plus, you can read reviews from former patients to help you decide. Whether you're a busy exec, a parent of a struggling teen, or battling addiction yourself, I feel you. I empathize with you. I really do. And they have treatment options for you. Life in recovery is wonderful, and recovery.com is your partner in starting that journey. When you or a loved one need help, go to recovery.com and take the first step towards recovery. To find the best treatment option for you or a loved one, again, go to recovery.com.

or a loved one, again, go to recovery.com. Okay, so today's conversation covers, of course, Oze's story. We talk about the art of mentalism, what it is, what it isn't, how he mastered this craft, what mentalism being an entertainer and being a devoted ultra runner who continues to clock 100 mile weeks

has taught him about human behavior, about obsession, perseverance, patience, self-worth, entrepreneurship, and more. I really don't wanna spoil this one any further beyond imploring you to please stick around to the end because this wizard performs straight up the craziest sorcery imaginable. It's a reveal for the ages that left not just me,

but my entire team absolutely stunned and breathless. How's that for a tease? Okay, so let's get into it. This is me and Oz Perlman. So before we started the podcast, first of all, thanks for coming here. I appreciate it. Thanks for having me. I'm really looking forward to getting into this with you.

There's so many cool things to talk to you about. Before we even started, you had me doing a whole bunch of stuff. I suspect that at some point you wanna do some kind of reveal or blow my mind with something. We can do that at the end or at the beginning. No, we gotta leave. Whatever you wanna do.

I like to end big. We'll end big. Well, why don't you kick it off by just explaining what mentalism is so we're all clear on kind of the playing field in which you operate. I think it gets sort of conflated with magic and mind reading and tarot card reading and all kinds of other stuff. So lay the groundwork on what it is that you do. So it's interesting because I would never believed

if you would have told me I was going to be a mentalist. This is not like the career path I thought I was going to be on, which is shocking to this day. It's kind of like magic of the mind. So everybody can visualize a magician because you think somebody picks a card and they're going to find it with fast hands, right? That's kind of the dynamic, sleight of hand. So what I do is more analyzing how people think, reverse engineering their decision-making

and some elements of body language reading, psychology, and honestly, group dynamics, social dynamics, knowing how people behave and studying that for decades. And then knowing how to entertain people. That's the key word. It's entertainment. It's not, I'm not psychic. I don't pretend to know the future.

I don't, I would have won the lottery by now, Rich, between me and you. But it's reading people and making it very entertaining and doing it in such a way that it's not explainable. Like the key is it's kind of, you watch magic and you know, somebody did something fast. My hands don't move fast. I just do stuff where I'm very good at guessing things. You're very much an expert at this though. I watched a whole ton of, of your videos. I watched all the America's Got Talent performances and Ellen and the Today Show and all this sort of

stuff. And you have an incredible like stage presence and command of what you're doing. And it's impossible for me as a lay person to try to deconstruct what the cues are that you're, you know, the sort of foundation that you're laying and you're so in this flow of what you're doing. But I have to imagine that you're paying such close attention to, you know, what's coming out of the person're doing, but I have to imagine that you're paying such close attention to, you know,

what's coming out of the person's mouth, how you're kind of queuing them up, how you're leading them down a certain path. And if there's something not going your way, you have to kind of redirect it and, you know, land that plane in the place that you wanna, where you wanna stick that landing, right? So it seems like you're kind of reverse engineering

all of this. Like, you know where you want it to end up and you have to take this person on a journey that's gonna land them there without anybody being the wiser. Very well put, like exactly that. Think of a movie, this is the best way to describe it. Think of a movie with the director's cut

that you never saw, right? The director points the camera at what they want you to see, but there's other elements of the movie. So what I do, it's very funny because it's not linear, not to be like too in the weeds. I don't usually just say, hey, think of this and I'm going to guess this. I kind of take you on a path where amazing things happen and you don't really know exactly what's going to take place. And that's the advantage for me. That's why I'm not working for the FBI profiling people or like at a casino. There's certain things I do that give me a tactical advantage in life, if you will. But it's also done on the course of entertainment where I can't just

go into a casino and rack up winnings. I can do certain things, but they know how to neutralize my advantage. But in essence, yeah, I know how to observe people. I generally know how you're going to behave. And even in the moment where you think I'm going to change my mind, I'm gonna do something different right now. I know you're going to do that. Yeah. We're going to get into how you know that. And I know you're going to be cagey about what you're willing to reveal. But I'm gonna do something different right now. I know you're gonna do that. Yeah, we're gonna get into how you know that. And I know you're gonna be cagey about what you're willing to reveal, but I'm gonna work on trying to get you

to divulge a little bit. Right, spill the beans. But you have done some kind of financial predictions and Super Bowl and Final Four stuff, like you go on Squawk Box. So that's a different animal than like reading an individual. So that does get into,

you know, predictions and, you know, sorcery. So some of that stuff was straight up. Like the way I describe it is when I'm doing a show, it's a combination. It's like routines, tricks, it's all the above. There's psychology, but I know that a lot of stuff's going to work. The predictions that I've done for the most part, it's like, I'm sailing without a safety net. There's, you know, there's no, like the Super Bowls, I got a bunch of them right. And then I got one wrong. And it's like, what are you going to do? And everyone's like, oh my God, you got it wrong. I'm not psychic. So what I did is kind of analyze the way anybody would handicap things. And the final four was amazing. I mean, I nailed the final four. And

then that, so again, all of these things, that's why people started betting on it. And I had to put a disclaimer out there being like, hey, bet at your own risk. Because eventually this house of cards might crumble and I couldn't get every single one right. But technically speaking, I got a lot more right than if you were flipping coins. Did you bet on it yourself? I definitely bet on stuff. You did?

Yeah. And how does that play into, we're gonna get into your background, but does that play into the stock market and investments and things like that? I'd like to think I'm somewhat of a savvy investor because my background is working on Wall Street. play into the stock market and investments and things like that? I'd like to think I'm somewhat of a savvy investor because my background is working on Wall Street, but I'm actually much more of a vanilla boring type person

when it comes to investments. I don't like taking big swings and risks. I've got kind of a thought on low cost index ETFs, growing your wealth slowly over time consistently, but with some kind of what I would describe as asymmetrical bets. Like right now, cryptocurrencies, I think is a no brainer for people to invest in, but you know, that's a little bit, that's a topic that's a little controversial. Right. That's its own

podcast. Yeah, for sure. The thing, the one performance of yours that got me more than probably all the others was the one on America's Got Talent where the panel had to guess the number of gumballs in the jar. Nice man. And then all the numbers lined up to be this long number that you had predicted. And I just, I can't even wrap my head around like how you pulled that off.

Oh man, thank you. It's unbelievable. Yeah, Nick Cannon reaches in and there's gumballs and they take out and there's a receipt in there and the receipt, the item number is- For the purchase of the gumballs themselves. Exactly. So it was, man, it's one of those things where what I want to do is a one, two, three punch. I want to do something that you kind of think you figured out. You're like, man, I think I kind of know how he might've done that. Then the next one's like, oh, wow, I don't know. And

the third one is totally unexpected, just a kick to the brain. And you're just like, I'm done. So that's why I kind of like to, all my setups on TV, if you kind of and you're just like, I'm done. So that's why I kind of like to all my setups on TV. If you kind of watch them are just like boom, boom, boom. And the biggest one at the end. Yeah. I'll link up that video as well as a bunch of other videos of yours in the show notes, but yeah, ostensibly the, the number on the receipt for the gumballs

lined up perfectly with the series of numbers that if you went down the panel in order, like the exact series of numbers. Right. It was unbelievable. Thanks. And I wanna work our way up to America's Got Talent. So let's start at the beginning.

You're from Israel, but you moved to Michigan as a young person. Yep. So I moved to the States when I was three. Like I was born during a war and then my dad was an engineer and he got a job here. Kind of they do an exchange program because everyone in Israel goes to the military.

It's kind of at 18, everybody does. And so he was in the Navy, he was designing engines and he did like an exchange program. We were supposed to come for two years and then we ended up loving it and staying in the States. And just stayed, where in Michigan? So I moved a couple of places before, but I ended up middle school, high school and college.

I lived in Farmington Hills, Michigan, kind of outside Detroit. I was born in Grosse Pointe. We always do this. I don't know if they'll see this on the podcast, but we hold up our hand and point where in Michigan, all the Michiganders will know. And that's how I describe where I was.

Yeah, all my cousins and extended family are Michigan people. My parents went to U of M. Go blue. And the whole thing. So I just, I'm the black sheep because I came out to California, but maize and blue.

Wait, what's wrong with you? You wanted beautiful weather, Rich? You wanted sunlight some of the year? What's wrong with you, Rich Roll? Come on, go blue, right? My grandfather swam for University of Michigan under coach Matt Mann and the natatorium is called the Matt Mann Pool.

Oh, really? At University of Michigan, yeah. They have a strong team, I think. Yeah, so he was a legend. Yeah, they've built an incredible program there. I mean, Michael Phelps, you went to U of M, right? Yeah, I went to Michigan. You probably were there when Phelps was there.

Might have been an overlap. I'm trying to think of the overlap. Yeah, how old are you? I'm turning 40 this year. You're probably a little older than him. Yeah, I'm older than him. Cause yeah, he was in 08, man. I'll never forget that Olympics.

I watched every event he was in. Man, that was just like 888. I remember that opening ceremony. And I think that was the best Olympics ever in my life where he won every medal and he out touched that guy. And like, I was screaming. I was in my house or at people's homes, just like yelling, screaming.

I think that was the best Olympics ever. And before you got into running, you were a swimmer. I was a swimmer. I was a swimmer. I was a competitive swimmer as a kid. I was never good. I started school when I was five and then I skipped fourth grade, a little bit of a nerd. So I was always two years younger

than everybody I was friends with and I was really little. So I think actually in hindsight, I'm still not big, like five, seven and three quarters. I like to add that three quarters in, very important. But I still don't think I would have been a good swimmer, but I got better as we increased because I think at a certain age, like I was 16 when everyone's 18 around me. And if I had those extra years,

I think it would have gotten better. And I got to be a decent freestyler. Right, that was your stroke. Freestyle, and I could do very strong at fly, but only for a quick period. Like if I was in the medley relay, I could crush a 50 fly. I was almost as quick at a 50 fly as I was 50 free

because I wouldn't breathe. We used to do those shooters. Do you remember those shooters where you go underwater to one side, completely no breath and then back. And then you have them on like on an interval and you have maybe five seconds to just get yourself just absolute depletion.

I would say swim workouts are probably the hardest ones I've ever had in my life where at the end of a workout, I would be in the shower on the floor, even though it's the high school bathroom floor, which is horrendously disgusting, because I couldn't stand up. Yeah, well, swimming teaches you how to suffer, right?

And that definitely plays into, you know, being an ultra marathoner. You already have that background and familiarity with, you know, how to push yourself. And there's something about being in the pool where you can push yourself really hard, but you're not gonna get injured like you would in running. Like if you went out and killed it every day in running,

the way that people do in the pool, you'd end up with a problem pretty quickly. Yeah, you're absolutely right. So in running, it becomes more about holding back and conservation and knowing when to choose your moments to go hard. And swimming had something to it because I did cross country for one season and I hated it.

I was the worst one on the team, not figuratively, literally I was the worst person on the team. My coach later on, when I started like running and winning marathons, this guy was in shock. He goes, wait, O's? He thought it was impossible. He thought it was a practical joke or an April fools

because I was the guy who not only was the worst, I brought the morale of the team down. Like I, my friend, we would cheat. Like we always in Michigan, there's mile blocks, you know, a 12 mile, 11 mile, like the movie eight mile. We knew that during part of our workout, we would run by my buddy's house. So we would sneak into his house.

We would play golden eye. We would watch out the window to see when the other guys came back and we would quickly hyperventilate, throw water on our face and run the last half mile with them full speed. So like I was actually destroying part of the team ethic because I would be like, let's go play golden at your house, bro.

And it was very funny. Undermining the whole thing. Well, when did he become aware? I mean, just so people who are watching or listening know, like you're a 223 marathoner, right? That's my PR, yeah. Yeah, that's unbelievable. Is that what you just ran in New York?

No, I wish, not bad, I ran 229. 229, okay, yeah. And so I've done- And 23 was a couple of years ago? 223 was about five years ago. It was right before I had my first kid. My wife had our first kid. Yeah, then kids.

Kids, man. It all goes out the window. Oh man, did it go out the window for a little bit. I still managed to keep it somewhat together, but after our first kid, I just let training slip. And you know that feeling when you think you're still in shape, so you go after it, but you're not in the shape you were?

Oh, I know that well. And you go out in the first half marathon is just based on the fact that you have so much miles in your legs that I just crushed the first half and then a nice dose of humble pie in the first half marathon is just based on the fact that you have so much miles in your legs that I just crushed the first half and then a nice dose of humble pie on the second half. Yeah, yeah. So, all right, so you sucked at running,

you had some background in swimming, you were a precocious kid, kind of advanced academically. Where does the mentalism and the magic start to creep into your fascination? So my folks got divorced when I was 13, which was like, I don't know, for some people, a very traumatic type event. In my case, it was kind of,

it set me on a path where I needed something to fill the emotional void is what I would describe it as, to not really deal with the family tumultuousness. And I had just seen a magician on a cruise ship. Things happened very close in time and I was obsessed. And that's kind of my personality in general is when I get into something, it's full tilt. Like I never half-ass it.

I really, I went to the library. I checked out every book. I read them cover to cover. I started just practicing card tricks, literally 18 hours a day. From the time I woke up until night, I had waterproof cards to practice in the shower. Wow. Psychotic.

Yeah, the nerdy magic kid. There's nothing worse than that guy. And I actually met a kid. There was a kid who transitioned from being like the magic guy from middle school to becoming, he was more of what I described as the music guy. His name was Ryan Hertz. I'll never forget this. If he hears this, I'd love it. And I used to drive him crazy because when we got into high school, he didn't really want to be as into magic because he was known as the magician. And I would tirelessly like bother this kid, teach me a trick, teach me a trick. And with magic, you kind of have to prove yourself.

It's something where people don't give you the secrets until they know that you're really serious. Do you know what I mean? You only teach other magicians tricks. And with mentalists, it's even more of a close knit network where you don't really share things unless you kind of know other people have, I don't know the credentials or the experience,

or they're, I don't know, one of us, so to speak. And so over time he started kind of sharing stuff with me and he saw that I was doing this for real. And I just started doing it. My mom at some point was like, hey, I'm not buying all these tricks for you in books. You gotta go do it. And that was kind of my inner hustle at 14.

I went and got a job half a mile from my house, just walked into a restaurant and booked it. And I started working at that restaurant. And then I started doing kids shows and I was doing this all the time to make money. Just right out of the gate, like knew this is what you wanted to do. I never knew that I would do it as a living

because I didn't know that that could be, I didn't know that that was possible. Like all I saw was David Copperfield on TV and it's kind of like watching movies. Nobody, at least I don't think I could be a movie star. Like I don't know anyone who's that. So I don't think that's actually possible. Like my archetype is you gotta go be an engineer

or a lawyer or a doctor, you know. But you got that like Mark Cuban hustle gene. I think so. You're a bit of a salesman. For sure. Yeah. I'm a hundred percent. I almost don't think I'm a mentalist.

I'm a salesperson who's damn good at selling this product, which is that I can read minds. Yeah, and where does that come from? Like, is that a reflection of like your parents getting divorced and a desire for attention? Or is there some just inbred thing that you have that drives you to succeed? Because you have a big motor inside of you.

It would be enough just to have this huge career as a mentalist, but then to layer on top of that, all the ultra marathoning and all of that, like in the level of obsession and attention to detail that you bring to everything, like that's a, I mean, that's your superpower, I think, that kind of underscores and drives all of this. You know, I think that I liked standing out.

Even as a kid, I liked being known for something. And at different stages in my life, I was always kind of known. My greatest fear was to be like not known. Apathy is the worst thing. If somebody watches my show and at the end, they go, I know how you did this. I know how you did that. I don't mind that. That's engagement. Not even like social media. That's like live. I like that you leave there thinking about me. And I want to be memorable. And so if somebody leaves the show and it's like a movie that was a popcorn flick that it went in one ear out the other and a day later, like, Oh, I don't even remember seeing that. That is death to me. Like I, that kills me on the inside. If somebody's sitting there on their phone, not paying attention, I need to know

what I'm doing. That's wrong. That's not capturing their imagination, their attention. And so I think what I loved about magic was the iterative approach. It's that every time you do it, you get an instant response. It's like standup comedy. It's not like making a product like this, even to me, I don't know what's going to happen with this. People absorb it on their own. And they're going to listen to while they're working out while they're sleeping, while they're doing a million things. I love the immediate appeal of seeing an audience's reaction and seeing how I can improve upon it. And that's what the rush is of performing live. And the same with racing.

I love the excitement of a race. Right, it's truth. It doesn't lie to you, right? Like running doesn't lie to you. And the response of the audience is gonna be honest. And I think what, when I think about what you do and what I've observed in watching your stuff that distinguishes you from other people of your ilk

is that you weave into the performance some reveals. Like you want that, you're like, here's kind of how I do it. Like you drip out a few things to like, let them know, like, hey, this is kind of how I do it. You're not gonna tell them, you know, anything too major, but you kind of cue them. And I think that creates an emotional connection where they feel like, oh, cool.

Like now I'm really alert. Cause I'm looking for those cues that he's talking about, how he goes from one place to the other and, you know, creates this sort of tapestry that, you know, lands in such a mind blowing place. You nailed it, man. That's what you gotta do. It's like breadcrumbs.

I mean, I don't see other people doing that though. It's like that level of divulgence. Did you come up with that yourself or? I did it because I'm the biggest skeptic. So it's like funny, I'm the person who watches these things with the eye of a skepticism. And honestly, people that like mentalism will go down a few paths.

One, they'll just like watching it, right? It's kind of a cool thing. And I get a lot of my shows where people say to me, I don't even like magic, but I love you. And I find that a great compliment because I'm the same way. When I watch like Copperfield or somebody do an amazing illusion, a lot of time, I don't know how it works, but it loses me because I know there's a method. Does that make sense? There's like, I know that somehow, whether you created it or bought it or something, there's a trick there that you're doing. And I know it, it's still amazing. And I know it, it's still amazing.

And I respect it. I love magic. But when I'm watching certain things with mentalism that hug the line, like things I've done that I can tell you for a fact have a real danger component. Like some of the things on America's Got Talent that were live, 15 million people are watching.

The producers know how I'm doing this. And they say to me, but wait, it could go wrong this way, this way, this way. Like they're sitting looking at me like, wait, but don't you understand? I go, I do know that. And they go, well, what happens if it goes wrong? You only have four minutes. It's live TV. We can't extend. We're commercials. And I go,

that's the rush. Like that's what you just said is it because the fact that you know that the audience feels that and you can't fake real, not danger because I'm not going to die. You know, I'm not actually getting physically hurt, but I could bomb and it could go absolutely wrong. And that makes me sharpen my focus. And that makes it all the more exciting for the person watching and for me doing it. And you know that when you watch somebody who's excited, you feel that emotion, you mirror that response.

Right, so where does it first kind of creep in to your life in a professional way? I mean, you go through high school, you're at University of Michigan. I assume you're doing this at parties and stuff like that. Totally, picking up girls. This is like when you're at University of Michigan. I assume you're doing this at parties and stuff like that. Totally. Yeah. Picking up girls. This is like when you're 14 and suddenly you do a trick

and a girl's like lights up. I'm like, oh my God, I'm sold. Right. But I had this thing where at 16, I finished high school. My parents, my dad moved back to Israel. My mom moved back to Israel. My dad had like another woman split up and just a lot of drama, let's just say.

And I was on my own. When I say on my own, like I supported myself in college. It became suddenly a thing where I need to figure out who's paying for tuition and all these things. And that's when you say the hustle, some of it is born of necessity. When I gotta pay bills and I was just turning 17 after freshman year.

And so magic was one way that I could do very well and earn money. And also it created my drive where there is no playbook in entertainment. There's not like a, hey, read this and now you'll be successful. You got to make things happen. So I was a constant networker. I would be places, I would be doing stuff, handing out my business cards. And I kind of learned how to sell ever since I was 14, how to approach a table of people that are eating food that don't know you that are like, who is this kid? What does he want? Is he

good? I started to know how to deconstruct people's inner dialogues, monologues of like what they're thinking. And just like a sales tactic, how do you neutralize their thoughts that are negative before they happen? So that by the time you leave, they want more of you. It is kind of, if you ever heard of pickup artistry, like the people that know how to, it's not for picking up, but like sales dynamics, negotiation skills, how to read a room, all of those things. I didn't really read books. I just kind of learned them over time because I just did so many shows when I was a kid and learned to deal with rejection very well. And most people are so fearful. And I learned that very soon, rejection is not a big deal. It's something to embrace and learn from and then get better at. So I got really good at that.

Right. So you're going into restaurants and pitching the owners, like, let me do my thing. Yep. And then get tips or whatever, get hired by the restaurant to just come in and do a show during dinner time. Oh, so what ended up happening is what the people, you target the right restaurants.

I learned early on, like at a young age, like I wanna be at restaurants for a variety of reasons where people either have bigger budgets or people that are going to hire me for parties. And as that advanced in life, when I moved to New York City, I started realizing like, where are the corporate people at? Because it's better to try and negotiate with somebody who's not spending their own money

than their company's money. And I started learning those things. But at 14, I can give you a great example. I went up to a table, two women that did not seem to want me there whatsoever. I did my stuff for them. And she asked me for my business card, which was weird because I didn't think they liked me. And then she called me about three days later and there was a national tire and battery, which is kind of like a pep boy type thing in Michigan. And they were having three grand openings and they hired me. I'd never gotten a corporate gig in my life.

No idea what to charge. I don't, you know to charge. I don't even know if they know, like they're calling a 14 year old boy. At those events, at each single one of those were Detroit Red Wings players that were there for the national openings along with me. And every one of those were future Hall of Famers, like Steve Eiserman, Nick Lindstrom, Dino Cicerelli. And these guys are huge.

In Detroit, these are massive celebrities. This was like being with Michael Jordan. And so I'm at these parties, these events, I'm doing stuff with these guys, photos in the newspaper, and suddenly just, you know, you gotta make your luck in a certain way. But once you get it, you have to embrace the momentum.

And that's something I learned early on in life. And I've done that ever since, where if you go to America's Got Talent, a lot of people do that. And then that's kind of it. That was a stepping stone. Like every one of these things I try to use and keep the momentum going,

roll that snowball down a mountain. But it's interesting that with that level of success at such a young age, that it still didn't break the spell of pursuing it as a full-time thing. Not at all. I didn't think that it's possible. Like, do you know when you have a switch in your brain that it's only like the only I could describe it

an off on off switch. And I've had a few moments in my life where people either intentionally or unintentionally just gave you that confidence or just made you aware that, oh my God, this is possible. And a lot of times you don't believe in yourself cause you've just never seen anyone else do it. Well, the only models are people that are out in Hollywood

or New York city and they're big names and you can't, there's no internet. So, and there's, they're not doing podcasts telling you how they did it. So it's impossible to imagine that you could find that path for yourself as just a kid living in Michigan. Right. Yeah.

And nowadays everything is at your fingertips. Like the world is in your hand and it's just incredible what people can do. Yeah. All right. So you end up going from college to Wall Street, right? Which is unbelievable. You get this job at Merrill Lynch, but you weren't like an analyst, right?

You were in like the IT department or something like that? So my background, I went to school for engineering. I started with computer engineering, but I was so bad at programming that I was just like, I can't do this, but I was very good at math. I was kind of like almost a math genius. When I was 12, I took calculus and I took, math was always easy. I don't think I'm incredibly intelligent. I just, it's almost like when you watch the movies and you see like the guy who just knows how to solve all this stuff. From when I was a young kid, just math was like a language that I just understood.

I can't explain it any other way. And so I was always very good at math and electrical engineering was kind of like the same. I didn't, it wasn't a passion. I didn't love it, but it was easy for me because I was good at math. So I just did that. That's amazing. Do you think there's an overlap between the skills that you've developed as a mentalist and that math ability? Like it's the same part of the brain?

It's similar because I can engineer things in a certain way, right? Like I imagine if you take a problem and you try to break it apart in little pieces, like a Rube Goldberg machine, you know, those things where the mousetrap and then the dominoes and then this and that. So I see that when I watch a mentalism,

like when I come up with stuff for mentalism, most of what I do is kind of stuff I've come up with. If you watch the TV appearances, you won't see anyone else doing it because most case I've invented it. So I just think, what do I want to happen? What do I want you at the end of this to be like, oh my God, he did this one sentence that you could tell a five-year-old and they would understand. And then I go backwards and reverse engineer that Rube Goldberg machine. And that's kind of like a

math problem. If you think about it, how in the hell could I fool somebody who's intelligent? I allowed it. I'm going to a corporate event tonight with people that have incredibly successful careers, doctorates, they know what's going on. How am I gonna fool them with in essence magic tricks? But that's my goal. But more than fooling them, it's entertaining. If they're just fooled, then it's kind of a challenge between our egos.

I want you to have fun. I want you to leave laughing, enjoying yourself and wanting to have a drink with me, not being scared of me. So yeah, I think the math stuff really helps me because my memory is very good. Like in a show like that, I will know everything about the whole audience.

Right, and you have this facility and practice of trying to remember everyone's name and kind of scoping everybody and getting as familiar as you possibly can with every individual that's gonna be attending the event so that you have a shorthand when it comes to spinning your yarns and doing your thing, right?

Yeah, like in the Bourne movies, you know what I mean? In Jason Bourne movies, I love that. Like the hypervigilance. The hypervigilance. I like the part with the situational awareness when the first time when he goes, he's in the bar or he's in the restaurant.

He's like, how come I know that that guy's doing this? That person's doing that. And right now I could run for six. Like he has this whole line. I love that monologue. I met Matt Damon once on the Today Show. And I was like, dude, I love that scene. And that's kind of what you train yourself to be aware of.

Not 24 seven. It's not- That's what I was gonna ask. I mean, can you turn it off? All the time. Like, does it drive your wife crazy? Other things of mine drive my wife crazy. We could have a long list if we interviewed her, but not that part. She would actually be like, why aren't you

doing more stuff? Why did you forget the kids had to go to swimming at this time? But no, that's something that it's like a focused, disciplined approach. It's kind of like when you step up to the start line for a race and you're like, focus, you visualize where you're going to be. The same thing approaches when I'm at a show. Like you'll see me before the show walking outside. Like if I'm doing a show at a public, like at a theater and people watch me and that's very unusual because most times the performers are backstage. You don't see like the rock star or the comedian before.

And I'm walking around, I'm saying, hello. I'm just walking and I am watching everybody, everything about them, mannerisms, things like, and that's the time that my team knows you never talk to me in the 15 minutes before show, because imagine your brain just completely at 100% churning. Like everything is going into my brain right then that I'm absorbing and taking in that I'm going to use in the show. And that's it. Like, that's the most focused I ever am in my life.

And what are you looking for specifically? A million things like that's, I can't explain how to, what round peg fits in a square. Like when I know what tricks I'm going to do and what routines I can just sense that's the art. The biggest part is not knowing how to do the things. It's knowing who to pick to do the right thing with. Does that make sense? Yeah. So that's why I say it's the director's cut. It's you're not picking. If you brought me in a casino and said right now, sit with him, do this poker thing with him. It's not how it works with me. You don't have the constraints. I get to make the choices.

But when you walked into the studio today, were you doing that? I do it automatically, yeah, for sure. Will you tell me what you noticed and kind of filed away that might be useful? I'll tell you at the end once you've seen what I'm gonna do. All right, that's a deal.

That's a deal. So there's a couple like interesting inflection points. The first one is this sort of dinner party event at Merrill Lynch that kind of changes your life in a pretty material way. Yeah, so I worked at Merrill Lynch and it's important to know that my job was like, I'm this 21 year old kid who just gets hired as like, I was an intern and then they hired me. And this was right after 9-11.

And in Wall Street, they did this thing with called contingency recovery, where you had to move all the operations in case New York got attacked again, the servers wouldn't be gone. You know what I'm saying? Like that's all the financial data of the world. And so I was the guy who,

when they were buying all these servers for hundreds of millions of dollars, I get on the phone with somebody a million times smarter than me. And he goes, I need $8 million to buy all these servers. And I go, you can have $3 million. I was hated. I was a punching bag at the company.

So what I ended up doing to soften the blow was I'd go out to happy hours with these engineers that had to talk to me, a 22-year-old, 21-year-old, and make the decisions through me. I was red tape. I would do magic for them. And they would be like, this guy's not so bad after all, right? They would end talk to me, a 22 year old, 21 year old, and make the decisions through me. I was red tape. I would do magic for them. And they would be like, this guy's not so bad after all, right?

They would end up loving me, even though they should hate me. Does that make sense? Right, and then they bite the bullet and take the deal. Right, because it was like internal. I kind of managed the servers for the company at the time. Like I was a project manager.

So what I'm saying is words circulated throughout my company up the rungs up until about a year after I'm working there, I got hired to do a show for the CFO of the company. He has no idea that I work at this company. He thinks I'm like a professional magician, right? They don't, for some like small dinner party for a select crowd.

And at the time I did a lot more sleight of hand magic and I did a trick where I take five $1 bills and I snap my fingers and they just turned to hundreds. And he starts laughing. He's like, oh my God, it's obviously, we gotta get you working here. He's like an Australian guy. Anybody who can turn ones in a hundred

should be working at my bank. Yeah, and everyone laughs. And I go, I do work here. And he thought I was busting his balls. And he's like, what do you mean? And I'm like, literally, I work in your global technology services department, 95 Green, and the guy couldn't believe it. And he just like, what do you mean? And I'm like, I literally, I work in your global technology services department, 95 Green, and the guy couldn't believe it.

And he just looks me square in the eyes and I can see it vividly. You know, if you recount a story enough, but also I still see that moment. This is like 16 years ago. And he goes, what the hell are you doing working here? And it was like, literally, like I said, you flip a switch inflection point

where I just said to myself, what am I doing working here? And it was just, cause I'd always thought like, you know, my parents raised me like, you gotta get a job and this is a paycheck. And you didn't have that guy when you were 16 telling you that, you didn't have that mentor voice. Not even the mentor voice,

the voice in your head is the most powerful. The one telling you like, you can't do that. Like that's not, that's maybe that somebody does that, but that's not you, right? You don't really believe you could be that person. And so I just, at that moment, just, I don't know, I went home and there was a lot of other factors. Like a lot of things, luck and timing in life,

which is I wasn't married. I didn't have any kids. I didn't have any bills that if I, God forbid something really bad, I couldn't turn it around. Couldn't also, it was before the market crashed. If this was in 2009, I probably would have held onto that job for dear life.

So I said, you know what? Let's do this. I got savings. What's the worst that's gonna happen? I'll have to go find another job in a year. And I said, I'm gonna do this. I'm gonna give myself a year. And the scariest part is, and I'd been working, keep in my head, restaurants, I was hustling.

I never didn't hustle. So the side hustle was going on the whole time you were at Merrill Lynch anyway. The side hustle got to be to the point where I was working so much that my girlfriend at the time was like, I'm always gone on weekends. I'm doing bar and bat mitzvahs, which are huge in the New York City tri-state area.

People spend as much on bar mitzvahs as they do on weddings and other places. And so I was doing all these shows. I was working. I'm either working at my day job or I'm working at night. And I just finally said, I can't do this. You can't like jump in a pool just by dipping your toe in. You gotta go for it.

And you've gotta be hungry. So I needed that push to have that day one where I was on the couch and I wake up and I don't have to like go to work. No one's calling you or telling you you have to do anything. You become your own boss. And that's when it dawns on you. And that first year I didn't do nearly as well as I did

when I was working on Wall Street, where you need to make things happen. And it's kind of like, you've gotta do it or else no one's gonna do it for you. Right, and so that's 2002, 2003? 2005. 2005, gotcha. So America's Got Talent doesn't happen until 2015.

10 years. So that's a full decade of doing pushups and putting in your 10,000 hours, right? Everything good takes 10 years, man. I honestly, I believe it. I've seen it so many times. I've experienced it myself to develop a level of mastery and command.

I really think it takes a decade. And yeah, there's always gonna be outliers and people who seem to find a way to shortcut that, but for the most part. But you had tried to get it on the show earlier, right? And it didn't work out. So I wasn't a fan of the show and then Howard Stern went on

and I have a bunch of friends that are Howard Stern fans. I loved Howard Stern. And when he went on, it kind of like changed it where I was like, I started watching it religiously and I really enjoyed the show. And I, again, didn't really believe that I could be on the show. It's one of those, I don't know,

I'm confident in certain regards, but other regards, it just doesn't always seem like, I don't know how you do that. And I luckily had another TV appearance. And so a TV producer from America's Got Talent, they'll sometimes reach out and they'll say, come on into audition, as opposed to what's known as kind of like a cattle call, where you go in with thousands of people, usually into like a giant warehouse and you just take a number and you wait. That's what you see on the show when they show you. So the first time I went in, I did a producer's call,

which is more of a red velvet rope. Come on in and you go right in. And it went terribly, like terribly, not so much from my own perspective, but the way it was set up, I went into a room. Imagine right now, if we went into this room and there was just a camera person and they go, okay, do your thing.

And I'm like, I can't do my thing. I'm a mind reader. I need someone who's mind to read. So it flopped badly because it wasn't set up well. And quite honestly, it was a blessing in disguise. And there's always a silver lining, people say that, but in this case there was, because it's like you said, those pushups and those years,

I didn't go back on for about three more years. And those three years, I did a huge volume of shows and I got better and better. The more you do it, the more you iterate, the more you see it works and kind of my persona developed. And when I went back in and I got better and better. The more you do it, the more you iterate, the more you see it works. And kind of my persona developed. And when I went back in, I went in not caring. I was gonna go in two years later, but it was so cold out. It was 15 degrees Fahrenheit with like a wind chill.

And I went out there to stand in line and I stood in line for three hours. I was dying. And then I had a show. I thought I was gonna be done. And I had to go do a show and I'm like, screw this. I told my wife, I'm like, I'm done. Like this is, I'm not, and I skipped it.

And then the next year I came back. Thank God it wasn't that cold. And I waited for like seven hours. I did not care. I say that not, I'm not lying to you. I did not care at all what happened. I went in there, like I own the place and I killed it

because kind of like actors that do auditions, you hear about actresses that go in, they don't think they're getting the part. So they just are so loose. I was so loose. I walked in and then I went in and then I just cracked jokes. I go, guys, we don't even need to do this. You already found the guy who's gonna win a million bucks.

And I was just like completely just let it go because I really didn't think I was getting on and they loved it. Right. And that was it. And that was the season that I ended up getting third place. It is powerful when you don't care. It's the greatest power you have to say no.

You're that like ability to detach from expectations and results just allows you to flourish in those high pressure moments. Thousand percent. Yeah, yeah. I can't believe you got third. Yeah. I don't know who, no, I mean,

I watched your performances and I was like, who's better than this? Like, thanks man. I don't know who, I, I mean, I watched your performances and I was like, who's better than this? Like, I don't know who, I don't watch the show that much. So I don't know who won and got second that year. But I mean, you had those people eating out of the palm of your hand. I mean, they were going insane. And I would imagine it's very difficult

to thread this needle week in, week out. So you have to do six performances, right? It's crazy. And you can't peak too early. Like you can't blow your best stuff on the first or second one. You gotta, but it has to get better and it has to be good enough.

So you're gonna make it to the next round. So that's a difficult kind of equation to square. The highs and the lows of that show. If you asked me the part of my life, you know where you live something that's surreal because you know you lived it, right? But it happens so quick that it almost feels like it was a dream or a movie.

The last stages of that show, when you're so in it, and obviously other people, some people watch those, some people don't, but when it's your life and you're like there, on a Tuesday, you'll perform live. And it was the number one show on TV. I don't know if it still is, but it is the number one TV show in the country and to some de facto in the world

because it's watched on YouTube internationally. You get calls as soon as you get on that show, people call you from all over the world. I was called from six continents. And so you perform on Tuesday night live, which is its own beast. You can't screw anything up. There's nothing.

It's not edited at all. If you screw anything up, you're done. The next day on Wednesday night, they tell you if you got through. So that Wednesday night, you're on like a high that you just can't believe. Your skin is like tingling. And then you have maybe five minutes

before you walk backstage and the producer goes, okay, great. Tomorrow morning, we gotta talk about what you're doing in six days. And we're doing a rehearsal in four days. And so it's like- And they need to know, how much do they need to know ahead of time?

Everything. I mean, you had mentioned earlier that you had to walk them through it. So you have to actually explain to them how you're doing it. So they're in on it. This is the one joy of that show. I call it the emperor has no clothes

is when I do almost every other TV show, I've got two things working with me. I'm trying to fool the audience and entertain the audience at home while also not letting the producer and TV staff know how in the world I'm doing this. Most TV shows you'll go to, they'll be like, I have no idea how he just did that.

Like I did Ellen a couple months ago and I did a thing in the audience. If somebody wants to watch, I don't wanna spoil, but I did almost like a mass suggestion of an entire audience. And at the end of the show, I wish you had a clip of Ellen five seconds after the cameras ended,

where I go, Ellen, this is your audience. She's done that show for 19 years. She understands that there's 250 people in the audience and that I don't have a way to set anything up with them. Do you understand? It's not, she knows I go, this is your audience, you know, and she goes, she grabbed me and she goes, I know that she understands that if you're watching at home, you're saying this is fake. This has to be set up. He must've told those people what to do or like done something. Or she knows that those people get loaded in, in a room, she comes out, there's a warmup act. There is no way to know who's gonna be in that audience.

Or do you understand what I'm saying? Like she- Sure. Yeah, I mean, I saw the clip. Her reaction. And I think I have a sense of how you led them to that place. I hope you try. And everybody can watch it or maybe we can cut it into this video so people can see part of it.

But there are Easter eggs. Oh, I want Easter eggs. If you watch it a bunch of times, you can see a little bit about how you're getting them to arrive in the place you want them to be. Exactly. And so that's the best part. Yeah, man, I don't know, the AGT stuff.

And I didn't plan ahead. So a lot of people that I've talked to, they'll plan ahead. I've consulted, I've like helped other people that are doing the show. Cause you kind of, once you have an inside track, you can be very helpful to them. And I've found time and again, anyone who plans it, who's like, I'm going to do this in my first round,

this in my second round, they don't make it through the first round. Like you got it, it's like a football player. If you are thinking about what you're going to do after you catch the ball, how you're going to run and get a touchdown, you end up dropping the ball. So I literally swear on my life,

I did not know what I was gonna do the next round. All I focused on, 100%, putting the best act together I could for this round. And I also did in the last three, all original material, which a lot of people don't, they do the stuff they know kills that they've done hundreds of times. I said, if I'm gonna be on this stage,

I gotta do stuff that's like next level each time and kind of raise the bar. So you're coming up with new stuff. You weren't, it wasn't like I have six of my best things. I'll move them around in this way. No way. That's how this is gonna play out. No, two of them at the beginning were my core act, the audition, because you audition

with something you've already done. It would be silly to do something you haven't. In fact, the producers, you show them your best thing and they're like, do that on the first show. But the last round, for example, I did this thing with chairs and it was kind of wild where they all sat in chairs. I made that up five days before. And it was just, it was a whirlwind of insanity. I love, I hate and love a deadlines because that's where I get creativity. Like three days ago, I had a show for a client that's had me three times and they need me to do something different. And I, you know, I complained to my wife endlessly.

I'm like, this sucks, you know, but I love it. Secretly inside, I love the fact that I'm gonna have to come up with practically a whole new show. The constraints are what pushes the outer boundaries of creative expressions for sure. I love it. Yeah, how do you come up with this stuff? I mean, do you get on the mentalist hotline

and call your mentalist bros? Like how many, first of all, there probably aren't that many of them, right? You guys talk to each other and share trade secrets and, or is it all proprietary and locked down? We're not as, there's a network of people. It's primarily guys. I don't know why, there's a ton of Israeli guys too.

It's a weird, I don't know what's in the water. Yeah, there's a guy called Lior. Lior Souchard's a good friend of mine. There's so many Israelis for some reason. I don't know why also, I don't feel like David Blaine There's so many Israelis for some reason. I don't know why else. I don't know if David Blaine is Jewish, David Copfield is Jewish. I don't know what's in the water,

but somehow this religion has been drawn into this profession. I don't know how to explain it. There's plenty that aren't too, but I'm just saying it's a weird, I don't know. Uri Geller is like the original, one of the original mentalists. The guy used to bend spoons

and got debunked on Johnny Carson. But there's a network of people I bounce ideas off of and their sounding boards. And there's some elements that I make up a lot of the stuff myself. Some of it is kind of, you have a set of tools. Think of it as, I'm trying to think of the close thing. It's almost like an artist.

You know, you have watercolors. I have this paint, I have this medium. And now how do I put those together? Some people use the tools to create the finished product. I start with the finished product in my head. Like when I did that Ellen appearance, I knew exactly what I wanted the end to be. That moment where an entire audience

all simultaneously does something unbelievable together, that's what I wanted to finish on. I backwards engineered the rest of it to create layers and to hopefully have something that's like a fully formed piece where every piece connects, almost like a movie with callbacks, like a great comedy routine has callbacks to the beginning as well.

Right, and every word that's coming out of your mouth is completely well thought out, even though when I'm watching you, it looks like you're just spontaneously responding to what's going on. It's both, so it's exactly that. It's scripted in a way that I know where I wanna end up, but at the same time, I'm juggling while on a motorcycle. I don't know what's exactly that. It's scripted in a way that I know where I want to end up. But at the same time, I'm juggling while on a motorcycle.

I don't know what's going to happen. It's the ultimate rush when you do those types of shows. Because like if you watch on so many shows, my show people throw Frisbees in the audience. I do everything in my power to make sure you know. Like I've done shows at T-Mobile Arena in Vegas where we literally shoot t-shirts in the crowd. You do not know who will catch that.

When they stand up and I'm going to read their mind. Because the first thought you think if you watch my show is this is set up. This is like, he went and talked to that person and paid them or told them. That's what I would think if I'm watching. So if I say, Ellen, you go pick anyone in your audience right now,

stand them up, and I'm gonna tell them the name of their first kiss. Wow, right? Like that's a legit, like I didn't set that up. How could I? So I try to reduce every possible way you think I could do it. As soon as you've got one, I say, you know what?

I know what you're thinking right now. You did it by this way. So let's make sure I can't do it and let's try it this way instead. There's an interesting relationship between this obsession that you have with this and kind of the rush of doing this high wire act because I'm sure there are certain people,

like when someone's picked from a huge audience that you know full well, oh, this person's gonna be putty for me. And other people where you're like, this guy's gonna be a fucking problem. Right. Right? And that not knowing like has to be frightening, but it's almost like gambling, right?

It's a weird kind of exciting dynamic to live in. And the stakes are high for you because it's your reputation and this is what you do for a living. And people have an expectation that you're going to be able to pull this off. It's almost also like a therapist too, because when you say that, when this person is going to be difficult for me, why are they difficult for me? So you think about dynamics, what dynamic am I creating between that person? Do they want attention? Like a lot of people, if they heckle and they want to figure you out, what is it that's the core need that you're actually doing? Do they want to be included? Do they want to be a part of it? Do they want to be shown to be dominant to me? If you're looking

at kind of an alpha, if you walk in a room, how do you diffuse that tension? It's so nuanced. It's kind of dissecting what a person's core need is. And then a lot of it is changing people's memory. Like most of my job I describe as making memorable moments and people's memory is malleable. So what people think they saw is very different than what they remember and what they tell others. And I've been working on that for 20 years

is knowing how you will describe what I do to somebody else. And that's something you think is, well, how could you affect that? That's all I do. Every word, linguistics, timing, pausing, doing certain things, like knowing exactly where your eyes will go and what you'll do in a certain moment.

When your moment in your mind, if I ask you to think of something, that moment when I go, okay, have you got it? And when I say and determines when you will change your mind or if you'll stick with it or not, people don't believe half the things I do. If you knew how I do it, you'd be like, I can't believe I fell for that. And the other half you go, that's not possible. It hugs the line of being absurd, absurdly easy and absurdly difficult. Right. So when you're asking somebody to think of a certain person or what have you,

you have already laid the groundwork kind of leading them to a place where they're much more likely to pick the person that you want them to pick because of all these verbal cues that you've kind of seeded in that. I think, wasn't it with Al Roker where you kind of worked in a Taylor Swift song title

into whatever you were saying to him, little things like that, that you're kind of consciously unaware of, but work on your unconscious mind and lead you to make a decision that you thought was random, which is disturbing on some level. We could have a broader conversation about free will.

The fact that people are so easily manipulated and you're so capable at doing it is a little upsetting. Right. You know what I mean? I use my powers only for good. Can we put that out there, gang? But you could be a character on that TV show, The Boys, and sort of weaponize.

It's basically like bad superheroes doing bad things because they're full of ego and greed and what have you. But you could weaponize this. You could. Well, I mean, it is- I'm sure people do. Yeah, they do. Right?

I mean, I would, I don't, I'm not gonna tell you what is and isn't possible, but I watch a lot of psychics and people that do various types of readings and talk to the dead. And I'm watching them and I can't tell you for a fact they're not doing what they say. I'm not gonna pop anyone's bubble about what's supernatural,

but I watch people that are telling you things about loved ones that are gone and things like that, that while I watch them, I go, I could do everything they're doing better than them right now. And I'm doing it through means that have nothing to do with supernatural. Like I don't have a skill that you couldn't possess

if you were willing to train for 20 years. So when you're doing this, you're paying attention to nonverbal communication, like physical tics, you're trying to plant ideas in people's heads, making subtle suggestions. Talk to me a little bit with, to the extent that you're comfortable divulging,

like the kind of human psychology piece here. Like what are you looking at specifically? Like eye movements and the way people move their hands and whether they get flushed in their face or look away or look at you. Like I know just habitually when I'm trying to think of what I wanna say next in a conversation like this, I kind of go, you know, I like my head tips up.

And then I see, like I watch, why are you doing that? You know, it's like, I'm not even consciously aware of the many, many things that I persistently do that are just habitual that I'm sure are clues to you. You're looking at somebody, you're like, okay, where's that person and how can I move them in this direction?

What are the key things that you're looking for? So it's not, it sounds like it's so simple that you can just have people do things. Most of it is just reducing tension and building rapport. Think of it this way, when somebody gets relaxed around you and they're having fun and they're enjoying themselves, they let down their guard. And that's when you get a lot more out of them,

just in a relaxed way. I think of that movie, Talladega Nights, you remember Ricky Bobby's like, I don't know what to do with my hands right now. Like when people are uncomfortable, they don't know. So a lot of it is kind of, I get people to drop their guard, relax. And then they're, I don't want to say they acquiesce because you think I'm planting thoughts in their head

throughout. A lot of it is reading kind of what people are doing. Like if you're getting a choice, I'm going to guide you towards a choice where I'll see what you'll pick. Or I kind of work with you in a way that seems impossible to know what you would have done in a situation. But I have to be relaxed in order to be malleable for you. Right. Cause if I'm like, I'm hyper-conscious of what I'm doing right? Cause if I'm like, I'm hyper-conscious of what I'm doing right now, because I'm like, this guy's looking at me and he's trying, you know, so it's like, I'm like, what am I doing?

Rich is flexing for the people listening to the podcast. Just flexing the whole time. I'm like, what am I doing with my hands? But you have to get me to a place where I am not thinking about that anymore. Yeah, but it won't- And that becomes natural. And then those movements and patterns become like a window. You'll think it's happening at the wrong time.

So the thing is, you'll think, okay, so right now he's trying to read me. And then when you relax and stuff, that's when we kind of do stuff. And so it's the same as, you know what? I would say that most people do it with their kids and their spouse in a certain way. And I know it, it's not a manipulation.

It's you know when people are the most suggestible and you know the ways to kind of influence them. Like my wife knows that the best way to get me know the ways to kind of influence them. Like my wife knows that the best way to get me to do something is a test of pride. If I need to go clean something or build something outside and she says, I don't want to do that, but she goes, there's no way you can get that done in under an hour. It's kind of like the trick I use on my five-year-old. She knows that I am a five-year-old at my core. We still all have lizard brains. I'm a lizard brain. I don't think I've advanced beyond the age of like 14. I'm 14 going on 40, but at the core,

there's still ways that she knows how to work me over. My family knows how to work me over, whether it's guilt or whether it's a sense of, can you achieve a record? And you, in my profession, I'm trying to find ways when I'm performing with somebody to either loosen them up, which isn't always the case. Like I did a show in Aventura, Florida a week ago.

And I guess this guy's bank pin code. And it's the best reactions, the best. Cause the guy was so tough and didn't want to do it. And everybody knew knows him from this company. It was awesome. And he didn't even react at the end. Like that I got it right. He wouldn't give it up for you.

No, no, no, it was the best. He goes, he just looked and he had a mic and he goes, screw you. And he just sat down. It's the best, it's the best. It's you know, like you're not always going to get the, Oh my God. And it was just things like that are great. And it was funny because in, as I do it, I actually show people how I'm doing it. I go, look, you said this number. And so in your mind, you thought, cause I made him lie.

I do a lot of stuff where I explain to people, how do you detect if someone's lying? Now it's not a hundred percent, but how can you see things when someone's lying? And then how do you deconstruct the lie? So if I saw someone think of a color, but tell me a different color, generally, if they tell me a different color, I can actually tell them or a number. If they lie, I can tell you what you actually thought of based on how you lied. And so I showed the audience how to do it in a very simplistic way, something they could kind of try later, just in this context, not something we could do right this second, because it was a financed company. But I'm saying that guy did not want to be in it. Like literally I had somebody pick that didn't want to, but that doesn't matter

in a certain way. It's not like I'm hypnotizing him to cluck like a chicken. There was nothing embarrassing. He had a ton of fun with it. He was a star of the night, but I was still able to read him because he falls into patterns. It's kind of like knowing people's behaviors. You've always done those personality tests that explain to you what your emotional language is, right? Am I a love language? Am I a, I don't remember them all because they don't fit into my show as much, but you know what you need to kind of get your own, I don't know, like what's the word I'm looking for to whatever satisfies your, is it ego?

But essentially you're looking for, there's a certain number of archetypes, right? So you have the skeptic, you have, I imagine like the skeptics and then the people who are really ready to have a good time, those are the most gratifying. And then there's some people probably that, make it challenging for you.

Honestly, I told you the apathy, somebody who kind of looks at you kind of like, oh, it's a clown or they're not interested, then I feel that need to pull them in. And sometimes I don't want to win that battle. Like I will entice you. Like I hope that when you see a show like this, it's entertaining, but I can't overwhelm somebody

who's just kind of not into it. How much of this derives from NLP, like neuro-linguistic programming? There's some and it helps, but you can't do that with everybody. You know what I mean? Some of that stuff, it's something that works for 60 or 70% of the population in certain instances is not reliable.

It's kind of one tool in an arsenal. There was this article that I came across in Forbes, the title of which was how your body, it's five ways your body language gives you away. And it's this article about what you do. And amongst this list of five things, there were some pretty interesting stuff. Like one of them was when your eye movements

go up into the left, then you're accessing part of the brain that stores memories. When it does the opposite up into the right, then you're accessing part of the brain that stores memories when it does the opposite up into the right, then you're accessing imagination and the person is sort of constructing an idea or a memory, right? You can tell those are things that you would be paying,

trying to pay attention to. You can also tell how long, how far back someone's thinking in time. So if somebody thinks of a memory, you can actually almost like watching a processor on a computer, if it takes longer, it's a big program that takes over. You can tell certain things about like,

oh, they just thought of something from 10 years ago or 20 years ago, or, oh, they just thought of one person and they just changed to another person. And I can tell if you thought of a guy and then you changed to a girl. Like there's certain things that once you see them, it's almost, if you just watched a TV show and it showed you, these are the 10 ways this plays out and they're gonna work 90% of the time

and you memorize them and did them over and over and over, you could actually learn certain things that you go, well, wait, you're reading their minds. You're not, your face is telling you something that your brain is doing because your body's connected. Right, I would love to have you sit down with Dr. Andrew Huberman, the neuroscientist, because there's something interesting

about the neuroscience of the way the brain works and how the neurons are firing that overlaps in the Venn diagram of human behavior and what you're paying attention to that I think could be really fascinating. That would be cool. Like the neuroscience of mentalism. I would love that, get some analysis of some of it

and do something crazy for him and then kind of have him deconstruct. Right, I mean, what has it taught you beyond what we've already talked about, about the nature of human behavior and the malleability of it and how personality works and the like? Like you must understand so deeply

about the kind of operating manual, the operating system of the human animal. Do you like to play ping pong? Kind of. So the reason I ask is I love ping pong. I like the meditative quality. I'm not great at it, but I'll play ping pong. And you know, sometimes you get into a series, there's other things like it. Running is similar, but it's not as quick. Running is kind of like you can zone out and you get into that zone, you know, not a runner's high, but where you forget. Have you ever just forgotten

10 miles of a run, 20 miles of a run? You just, I don't even remember. I just ran. Right. You realize you just said, forgot 20 miles of a run. Like most people are going to get angry. I know who I'm talking to here, a fellow kind of a insane guy. So during ping pong, I will have things where I don't know how I just landed that shot. I literally don't know what my brain did, where there's instinct. And so I think there's, you operate on a level of instinct and muscle memory, the muscle in this case being your mind, that I will do things in performances that I will try afterwards to be like, how did I know that?

Do you understand what I'm saying? I can't tell you the answer. And I don't believe I'm reading minds. I really wanna be clear. I don't have a superpower. This is nothing supernatural. But if you've done this, it's just like a tennis player. I've seen Federer do shots

that I don't think are humanly possible or Novak or any of these people. And so the same thing applies in my world where I'll have moments where I guess something and I go, you right now just did this. And they go, huh? And I go, I don't know how I did that. Like, I won't know how I did that. And it's just because I've seen it before. And I went on my gut and I went with the instinct. And here's the thing, people amplify things that are correct, they forget things that are wrong. So in my profession, I get credit when I hit things that are right,

like people go, oh my God, like if you'll hear a story from somebody that might've seen me 10 years ago and you're not gonna believe he did this and this and this, some of that might not be true because their memory's a little different because I kind of change things up in their mind and how they remember it.

But other times I might've nailed something that in 20 other instances I got wrong, but people remember the big hits. They remember that moment when they won the lottery, not the five years they picked numbers and they were wrong. Have you had any colossal fails? Oh my God, yeah. Yeah. What was the worst, most disastrous failure?

So, I mean, the thing that- It's gotta be like nerve wracking. It's so nerve wracking. So when you're on live TV, that's the biggest, that's the, like, there's no safety net because live TV, there's no, when, if I'm wrong, this is the best way to explain it. If I'm wrong, I can unwind out of it sometimes

if I have more time, because I just need more time to get back to the bottom of what it is that happened. I just need more time to try and figure it out. And so on live TV, usually a short stop. If you do the Today Show, you know, like 20 times, there's a clock and when that clock hits zero, there's a commercial. So if you're gonna screw things up, like that's it,

you're done. So I don't have the time. So I'm so focused, it's like laser. And that's why you see me talking fast because I know I have to get to a certain end goal. And when I do a stage show, it's much more free flowing because I have fun, I have time. And you have strategies to find your way,

like if it's going sideways to like course correct and move it back on track. Like if you watch that Ellen thing at every single juncture, there's one of those diagrams, yes, no, maybe that like creates a pattern. I don't know what those are called exactly, but I have a chart in my mind of everything that could go wrong at this moment, how I will address it, what will happen next. And very few of them end in a you're screwed. Like I've always got a path out in my mind of how I'm going to do this. Yeah. On colossal failures

have generally been things that are outside of my control. Like for example, I did a show one time, God, this was in like South Carolina or somewhere where it's generally like a corporate event. They bring me on stage, they're gonna have a smoke machine, didn't know there was gonna be a smoke machine. There's gonna be a CEO popping out of a life-size genie lamp, didn't know this was gonna happen.

And just all these things went wrong where the smoke machine didn't stop, there's smoke on stage, I can't see the person whose mind I'm trying to read, trick goes south, just things where you just leave the stage. The worst thing that can ever happen is when a TV producer or the client comes up to you and they go, oh man, I'm so sorry about that. Like they feel bad because they know you're better than this and you're just crushed because

you tanked. And there's, I don't know, things like that. There's been failures on my part, but they're, yeah, I don't know. There's a few that I can think of that. Like were gut punches where I left the stage. I'm like, oh, and generally people feel worse for you. They feel okay about like, they, do you understand? They feel bad for you. Not like they're not mad at you.

They're just like, we know you're better than this. Yeah. But yeah, bombing in front of thousands of people. But you got a bomb. If you're gonna, it's like a standup comedian. Like they have to, you have to know where the edge is. Right? You have to touch that line.

And the only way to know that is if you cross it once in a while. I love standup. Standup comedy is my favorite thing to watch. You know how kind of like movie stars wanna be rock stars, rock stars wanna be movie stars. My dream is like, I always wished I was a standup comic. Like I love, it's the most pure thing in the world.

It's the most pure thing in the world. You must be approached by CEOs and businessmen who are like, I need a little bit of that magic when I go to my next negotiation or where I have to go to this board meeting. Like, how do I get people on my page, right? It's sort of tangential to your act and what you do as a mentalist, but this skill of understanding people

and how to guide them towards this result is very powerful. And I think is something that, you know, a lot of people would pay a lot of money to better understand, like as it can be to be like a consultant. It's something that I would consider as kind of like an act two.

Like I love performing. I really, it fills a void and it's a rush for me. I'm in the corporate space. Most of my clients are Fortune 500 companies and that's most of what I do. Usually you're always wearing a suit. It's all very family friendly. It's all about making whoever hired you

look like a superstar. Like that's all very consciously plotted out. Fully. When I went on America's Got Talent, I saw it as a commercial. They've just given me a TV commercial that if I'm lucky enough will be over 45 minutes of me, maybe even an hour if you add it all up on primetime TV

with millions, hundreds of millions of eyeballs. What do I want somebody to watch and think? Because they don't know who I am. And so that show is so great at crafting a narrative. And for me, it was like the Wall Street guy, the guy who left Wall Street, had a career that should have been very fruitful, left it to take a chance on a dream.

And then that's it. Like I do appeal to that crowd because honestly I know their industry. I know most industries really well. I study, if I go in and do something for a company that does finance or if they do some sort of multinational product, pharmaceutical, anything, I will know their product inside and out

to the point where they go, you could work for us. That's my goal is to be somebody on their team, not just performing with them, but like not for them, but with them. So yeah, that was very on purpose to do the suit and be corporate just because I'm not really, I don't wanna be edgy. I'm not swearing in my shows or putting people down.

You're the Jim Gaffigan of mentalists. I've worked with Jim many times, amazing guy, love Jim. Well, back to America's Got Talent. So you do your six performances, they all go well, you end up third. Of all those judges though, who was the most difficult? Like who was the biggest challenge among the panel? I mean, Howard called you like a dark wizard.

So I ran into Howard Stern this summer in Long Island. And it was funny because I was out running and he's got a place near me in South Hampton and I'm running around and I'm running around. I see him and he's very easy to spy, he's very tall. And he's notoriously kind of germaphobic and it's COVID. I didn't wanna go near him, but I had to say something and it's actually, we're on a track. And I just run by and I say, Howard, I go, I got to say,

thank you, man. You, you changed my life. And he didn't instantly recognize me, but then I go, I was on America's Got Talent. I was O's and he knew he's like right away. He goes, oh my God, the mental is like, he remembered very vividly about it. He's with his wife and I kind of walked, he was a few laps over, walked a lap with them, just talking about how much it changed my life because that show, that show is so different than being on any other show. If you go on like Jimmy Fallon or something that traditionally is like, you know, you think that's making it, people aren't emotionally invested. When somebody watches a sport team, you have your team that you root for. So something about America's Got Talent, the people that like it, a lot of people watch it

with their family. It's, you know, there's not a lot of stuff on TV that transcends ages. You can have your six-year-old and you know, it's going a lot of stuff on TV that transcends ages. You can have your six year old and you know it's gonna be appropriate and you could have your 86 year old grandma there. And so people decide who their money horse is. And early on, a lot of people just got very emotionally invested in me, I don't know. And so I'll meet people to this day who are like,

I voted for you and it's just wild how much people will root for you. And so I think of the judges, I had great rapport with everybody. I feel like Heidi and I had a great dynamic. Mel B was a little bit, Mel B is hard to correct because certain people, when you say they're kind of a free spirit and you don't know what will happen in the moment. And when you're on live TV like that, and you ask somebody to think of something like, oh my God, I don't know. And she's changing her mind like eight times. And it's not that I mind that, because I know she's going to do that. Like I'm

anticipating it's that I'm on a clock. And so with people like that, I have to create a different dynamic because I, I need them to stop changing their mind where I want them to. And she's going on her own tangent. And so you have to start creating like, it's like a game of chess. It's just like chess, but I'm playing seven moves in advance with somebody that doesn't know I'm playing them. And so I I'm playing a game of chess with It's just like chess, but I'm playing seven moves in advance with somebody that doesn't know I'm playing them. And so I'm playing a game of chess with somebody where I have to control it. And I have to like do something

that jolts her brain in a way that she stops and we go back to what I need. I don't wanna say, cause it sounds like a manipulator, but I'm controlling what you will do inside your brain through a lot of different physical, verbal and nonverbal communications. And she's very hard to do that with.

Yeah, the one kind of standout thing that you did with her was have her write down someplace that she went on vacation with a certain individual. And it's gotta be tricky because these are celebrities and you can Google this stuff, right? So you have to pick something or get them to, you know, kind of engage in an experiment that's not going to be anything

that's on the internet or discoverable online. Right. Like think about this, just visualizing something in your brain and where your brain would go. Like you've done Ultramans, right? Have you done Ironmans as well? No. Never an Ironman. It's so funny. Jumped right to the big one. So what was your PR at the Ironman or the Ultraman? I apologize. do you remember it? The total time? Is it, it's consolidated, right? It's like, cause you do three days. Yeah, the added, the total time, I don't know,

it was like 23, 24 hour. I can't remember, I don't know. Do this. I mean, I remember some of the individual daytimes or. Imagine this, I don't know if you're PRing, but just, this is just visualize. I want you to see this the way your brain works. Visualize you crossing that finish line.

And you've done that how many times? Twice. Twice. So imagine a third time. And now this is in your brain. Just play this crossing that finish line. And you've done that how many times? Twice. Twice. So imagine a third time. And now this is in your brain. Just play this out in your mind. I just want you to see how your brain would work on this. Not a trick. You cross the finish line. How can you say not a trick? Is there something tied to this? I don't trust you. I want you to imagine you cross the finish line and right at that moment, somebody takes a photo of you and you just go, now, did you go fast? Did you not? I don't know how the clock works, but tell me a very specific time. What would you have seen the time be above your head

when you crossed that finish line? Would it have been faster than the last one you did or slower? Faster. Right? Because everybody wants faster. You sure though? Are you sure?

Yeah. What would the time be exactly? How many hours? Well, this would be, should I tell you? You want me to just tell you? Yeah, I want to know how you thought about it. So the time would be for the double marathon. No, no, not the double.

Like the time that's displayed. Okay, great. Because the third day is a 52 mile run. So it just displays the time for that segment of the race. Perfect. So what would you have seen it say above you? 7.28. Seven hours and 28 minutes?

Yeah. On the dot? Zero, zero, yeah. Seven hours, 28 on the dot. You crossed as it went to that. So why did you do that? I'm curious. Why did I say that number? Why did you just say that right now?

Well, I remember in 2009, if memory serves me, I ran it in 7.51 or something like that. So I was thinking, well, if I was gonna do it faster and then I just randomly pick that number. You think so, right? Right. So the interesting part is you'll say to yourself throughout like, could I have done that?

Or that's impulsive. I just want everyone to know because I want you to know the way your brain works. Did you feel influenced in any way? I didn't feel influenced. I probably was influenced in some way. And then at the end, when I say it, because it's the best part

because everybody knows that when we cross those finish lines, how often do we hit the nail on the head? Cause it would piss me off if I was trying to get under a time. Like if I want to be under 2.30 and I went 2.30, 0, 0, I know people that that's happened to them. Or like, I know a guy who went three hours on the dot and it eats at his soul.

And you said 7.28 and then I said to you, are you sure on the dot? And you said, yes, 7.28, 0, 0. Yes. I just want you to remember you said that. Okay. Some kind of crazy to remember you said that. Okay. Some kind of crazy bullshit is coming my way, I have a feeling.

I would really like to be on the Mentalist group chat. The Mentalist group chat? Yeah, yeah. Is there such a thing? There are WhatsApp groups. How do you break into that one? I don't know. The problem is, is that it's almost like-

Encrypted, I hope. It's very acronym heavy, so that you'd be looking at it, you'd be like, I don't understand what any of this stuff is saying that they almost like- Encrypted, I hope. It's very acronym heavy, so that you'd be looking at it, you'd be like, I don't understand what any of this stuff is saying that they're saying. So it'd be very funny to note it. How does, what is your take on like the Hollywood treatment of mentalism?

Like we have, there was the TV show with Simon Baker Denny, the mentalist. And then did you see Nightmare Alley? I haven't seen it yet. You haven't seen it yet? So don't say anything. How have you not seen this movie? I know it's about a mentalist.

Yeah, Bradley Cooper is playing a mentalist. I know, I listened to a podcast interview. Like the tradition, like the rooted, you know, early tradition of this. I'll make the only excuse, I have three young kids and I travel so much that when I'm home, I'm like, it's just recent that like the, I don't wanna call it post COVID, jinx ourselves.

But is it on planes? I didn't see it today. Well, you can download, I think it's streaming. that like the, I don't wanna call it post COVID, jinx ourselves. But is it on planes? I didn't see it today. I don't know. Well, you can down, I think it's streaming. You can download it to your computer. I gotta do that. I haven't seen any movies in a while. It's not that I don't love media, but I ended up getting enticed where my wife picks a show.

And then if we have some hours together, I just like, that's, by the end of the night, I'm like, we're crashing. But you probably saw the TV show, The Mentalist, right? Of course, yeah. I did a promo spot one time for it as like the real life mentalist. I said, I'm not, we're crashing. But you probably saw the TV show, The Mentalist, right? Of course, yeah. I did a promo spot one time for it as like the real life mentalist. I said, I'm not nearly as handsome, not as good of hair or Australian.

But so that show is very, it's exactly as it's amplified. It's like anything we do a doctor show. Solving a crime every week. Right, it's not like they watch where every time somebody falls, you do CPR and they come back to life. But they had little points in it that were true. And they had little things, they kind of overdid it

where there's little points where you watch him like tap someone on the shoulder, right when he says something and that kind of inserts. I don't really do a lot of hypnosis in my show. There's people that are really great at hypnosis and that's amazing to see, but there are overlaps between hypnosis, auto-hypnosis, which I think a lot of people don't realize

they're doing to themselves. You have a voice in your head telling you things all the time. That's incredibly powerful. And that that's kind of, it's like the way you model things. How did I, why did I never think that I could do this professionally? Cause I never knew that you could, but if you're as a kid being told that you can do certain things over and over, then you don't even have that voice in your head telling you, you can't, you're like, of course I could do this. Like you said, now people can go on YouTube and find someone that does what they do. So there's a lot of that going on in the show

where I kind of reframe what you're gonna do. You'll see, there's something funny about what you just said where you realize later, like, how did he get me to think that? Have you ever been like approached by NYPD to come in and help them solve a crime? No, not yet, not yet. I don't know if they want me on the crime scene. That could either do, I've had one bad moment where I had

like kind of bad press, but it wasn't, my name was in it where there was a government agency that used me, but like in an event. And it was when they were like, they were like, they brought a mentalist and they never said my name, not for anything like not to solve any crimes, but they were like kind of told because the optics of it don't look good. Right. But I knew it was me, because I knew what the thing that they were talking about. And they're like, I'm glad they didn't say my name.

So many career trajectories for you, oh, as if this stage thing doesn't work out. Right, I would love a sales training or anything like that coaching in the future, because I think that a lot of the skills I have are soft social skills that you, they're used in the guise of entertainment. But what does everybody want in life in general?

You want to be remembered, right? You want to walk into a room and command attention and stand out because all of those things, no matter what you're doing, right? Everybody is selling in essence. It doesn't matter what you're selling. You could be a teacher. You're selling an idea to your students, right?

Everybody's selling something to other people. Even if you work alone. At some point, that's why when you asked me if I'm a salesman, like I think so, yes. I think everybody's a salesperson in some regard. And it's just knowing how to connect with others in a certain way is always useful. So what are some of those things? If someone's listening to this,

maybe they are a teacher or they're going into, they've got to make a presentation to their boss. What are some simple things that you could impart to somebody who can start to think about, you know, how to, how to present themselves in a way that's going to allow them to succeed? Some of the biggest ones are the simplest and their ideas that you just think that can't be right. But listening and truly listening is something that we don't do very often. We're so distracted nowadays that you don't actually take things in, I find. When people ask me, how do you memorize everyone's names? There's no mnemonic.

I'm not doing a trick. I am just listening to every person. And then I have a few techniques to get it back to them. So I know it's kind of been like imprinted on my brain, but most people, when you meet them, think about it. As you're shaking their hand or saying hello or doing anything, you're thinking of something else in your brain.

You're thinking what you're gonna say to them or your mind is elsewhere. If your mind was 100% locked in, imagine if you met, I don't know, who somebody you admire, respect, somebody that you've always wanted to meet. In that moment, every part of your brain will be hyper-focused.

Like I met Steven Spielberg. I remember everything. I remember what he was wearing. I remember how he smelled, everything. Cause it was such a incredible moment in my life. Imagine if every time you met somebody, it felt like that. So it's not going to, but you can create an awareness. And when you really listen to people, I think it opens them up. And that's part of my job is I just sit there. I deliver jokes. I do

other things, but when it comes to listening, I listen to everything they say. Cause most people give things away. They don't even realize. How do you practice that though? Like what is a technique for, you know, cultivating that level of like, you know, presence and focus? So something easy at a dinner party. Let's say you go to some dinner party coming up and you just want to test yourself. How am I going to remember all these people's names?

Oh my God, I met six new people. And it happens in quick succession. So what I do is every single time I meet somebody, I try to create some sort of comment. So a compliment is the best. I'd be like, oh my God, Casey, how do you spell that? Is that K-A? And when they spell it, you spell it back to them.

That helps tremendously. You're not gonna spell everybody's name. If you meet them, it's a little weird, but sometimes a great compliment. Like, oh my God, I love those glasses, Rich. Did you get those glasses? I gotta get those too, Rich. You say the name twice

and it makes you remember the name if you can. There's a few, honestly, just try the next time you do it to clear your mind. Don't think of anything. And as you hear their name, say it to yourself three times. You'll be shocked. Somebody who's forgetful as can be will do this

and they'll try it. And the first day they do it, they'll remember three people's names very well. Now it's different if you want to remember their name long-term, right? Because right now what you've done is you've done a like impression in the sand. When the ocean comes by, it's gonna wash it away.

You need it for the next 30 minutes. I mean, I started doing that out of necessity just because I meet so many people and- It's awkward if you go in there. Yeah, and it's like, and I've been in that situation, like signing books or whatever, and they say their name and then I have to sign their name and I can't remember what they just said.

It happens to everybody. It happens to me too. It's such a bad feeling. So I was like, I can't allow that to happen. So just intuitively, I was like starting to do that just so I could be in that headspace. Yeah. But it's tricky,

because if you start saying the name of the person too much, then it's not good. It's awkward, yes. Yeah, then you really sound salesy. I think the listening is one of the big elements that can help people just a very quick, easy one. It's a muscle. It's like anything else that you become a better listener.

I think you become better as a parent, as a spouse, as a sibling. Like most people don't really practice it because what you're doing is trying to wait for your turn to speak, right? It's almost like the Dale Carnegie, how to win friends and influence people. I'll go back and read that book again.

And it's from, I don't know, almost a hundred years ago now. It was, I don't know the publication date, but I find gems in there that are so obvious over and over as to, it's what you said earlier, benefits oriented. It's better in a podcast situation. It's difficult because I'm here to talk about myself, but I try to deflect when people ask me about what I do all the time

and learn more about what they do and see what's intriguing about them. What's the topic that's most vital to them? Is it their family? Is it their career? And the more I learn about them, the more they open up to me and the more comfortable they are around me.

And that's kind of like when I do the cocktail hour, when you said, when I'm at a theater and I'm walking around, I'm saying, hello, I don't want someone to be starstruck. I go, oh my God, you saw that TV show. What did you think? I go, tell me this, what would you do if you were on there? Or what did you think of, I'll just find some way to ask a question that deflects from talking about me and to get a

little more of them and try to open them up because that's the best way to kind of cut the ice, cut the tension. And that's in a setting where I'm trying to read their mind later. I don't want them to be on guard. I want to find things that are interesting to them. Like if I ask you about a memory of your own, like doing a race that you dedicated your life to for two years to get to that point, you'll get focused on yourself. You start forgetting that I'm trying to watch you

and look at what you're doing. You kind of, that's it. You asked me earlier, how do I make you relax? Well, I found a way. Let's talk about running. So when does the running thing start to work its way into your life? So I have a twin older sisters,

they're about seven and a half years older. And there was always a little bit of, cause I was a baby brother. I don't wanna say sibling rivalry, but I always wanted to kind of have some sort of one-upsmanship on my older sisters. And in 2004, I'm working like a day job. I think a lot of people fall into this trap

where you stop, really, you start going out to happy hours, you're eating like crap. You don't feel good. Like I didn't really feel as good. I was letting myself go in a way and just unhealthy lifestyle choices. And I was missing a goal. I like, listen, this is a very comfortable thing to say,

but I found life boring in a way because it became very repetitive. And listen, these are very first world problems. There's people that don't have food, that don't know how to pay their next bill. I didn't have that issue, but I wanted a challenge. And I think a lot of people are drawn towards endurance sports because there is no challenge.

It's something is lacking. I want that illusion of danger, whatever you want to call it, challenging myself, seeing what my metal is. So my sister signed up for a marathon. I thought this was insane because in 2004, it wasn't mainstream. Not everyone was doing marathons. So I, on a whim, signed up for a marathon. Somebody tells me, well, you should do the Boston marathon. I go, okay, how do I do that? And they're like, well, you have to qualify. I'm like, well, how do I? So you have

to run one really fast. So I reverse engineered. I found out what the Boston marathon time is. I go, I'm going to run that. Not knowing that you have to kind of be fast to do that. So then I started running on a treadmill, didn't read any books about like, how should you train? And I did a calculator, I probably did in my head. I'm like, this is how many miles per hour this is. So I just set the treadmill. So I'm just gonna run that pace for every run.

Yeah, and so that didn't work well because that was a little too fast. And later on, I learned what heart rate training was and what have you. So I do the first marathon. I have some fitness in me. I ended up running that pace for about 17 miles. I did Philadelphia marathon. And then I just fall apart. Like traditional- It's the classic story. Mile 17, 18. You hear that noise. That's me hitting the wall. I was like crying pretty much at mile 21. You hear that noise, that's me hitting the wall. I was like crying pretty much at mile 21.

And at one point I'm just walking and I'm so broken. And I see these two guys walking in front of me. Everyone else is running because I was going pretty fast. So at that point, it's like the walking dead where I am. Little did I know that once you start doing ultras, that's the real walking dead. But I see these two guys walking that are about 200, 300 yards ahead of me, really far.

And so I get enough energy to be like, I'm gonna run to them and I'll walk the rest of the run with them. Like I'll walk, so misery loves company. So I run for like 30 seconds and I'm getting within like the point where I can hear them. And I see these two guys, I don't know who they are to this day,

but I hate them and I love them. They looked at each other, they nodded and they started running. And I literally screamed out, F you, because I was so mad, like, why did you start running? And I got this adrenaline that I kept running from that point on. And I actually ran the rest of the race slow. Mind you, somebody could fact check it out. I ran like three 20 something, three 25, three 20 something, but I was hooked. My sister did one marathon. It was like, never again. I did that one. And I was like, I'm going to read how to

train. I love this. And then I started getting into it and I started chopping time and getting faster and faster and faster. I did Ironmans. Because again, I feel like you have some nutcase friend who's into this. I had a buddy at the time, Michael Arnstein. I know Michael.

The fruitarian. I've had him on the show. Early, early days. Early days. I saw Michael. Back in his office in New York. Yeah. I know that office. Well, I had my him on the show, early, early days. Early days, I saw Michael. Back in his office in New York. Yeah, I know that office, well, I had my 30th birthday party there.

And so I met him, we both read books. Dean Karnazes was like a huge inspiration. Yannis Kouros, like Scott Jurek. I started reading these books and it was like a gateway drug where we did a marathon. We each signed up for a 50 miler together. We were supposed to do the 50 miler together the first time. And at mile three, he dropped me and ran ahead.

I was like, Judas, I ended up passing him later. But then, you know, you read about Western States. So I'm like, I gotta do Western States and then Leadville. And then I ended up doing Badwater and just all of these, it's a whirlwind. Every single time before I did a lot of these races, I met somebody who did Badwater, I thought they were insane.

But then suddenly you meet them and you're like, I guess it's not that insane. Like that person did it. like I could probably do it. And so everything became possible at a certain point because you realize it isn't impossible, other people have done it. And I guess that was the challenge. That's wild.

So you've done bad water, Western States, Spartathlon. Spartathlon is amazing. If anybody hears this and is into running or wants something, man, Spartathlon is just epic. Just- Did you do that with Arnstein? We did it twice. It's on YouTube. The videos are incredible.

How's Michael doing? I think he's doing well. Is he doing good? Yeah, he is. I know that he, I mean, I haven't talked to him in many years, but I know that he would run, he lived like in the suburbs. Yeah, he'd run 50 miles to and from his office.

Yeah, he'd run to and from his office, which was like in Midtown. Yeah, 30 miles a day. And he would just eat fruit off the fruit carts, fruitarian, right? Did he get you on the fruitarian diet? I was doing fruitarian for a while. I was never full fruitarian,

but what I would do is I'd eat fruit. It's almost like a Jesse Itzler thing. I'd eat fruit till 5 p.m. And my body got adjusted to that really well. Right. And then I'd eat pretty healthy at night. And I still do a very similar thing when I cut weight for marathons.

Like I'm not heavy by any stretch, but like for New York City, I cut about 12 pounds. Because when you're trying to run fast, like ultras are one thing, but when you're trying to run fast, you gotta be lean. Like my wife does not like it. She calls it manorexic, but I will be pounding bananas all morning.

I'll be eating mangoes. I mean, I can eat yellow mangoes till I'm yellow in the face. That's not necessarily the best strategy with ultras though. It's a different thing. No, no. And then keep in mind, I eat other things at night to fill out and like lean proteins.

And I love rice. I literally rice is my favorite food. I could give up anything, but I just love rice and spicy hot sauce, which is kind of gross it sounds like, but just, and so I will lose weight and I can lose like a pound a week and I get really, it feels amazing when you're running fast. What's your favorite race

or the hardest race that you've done? I think Spartathlon because it's just, it's so epic. Yeah, it's so epic. It's just, I've never been at a race where every, it feels like the Olympics for the modern man. Ironman Hawaii is cool, but it's a little less, it has less of a soul. I, you know, it feels like a corporate thing. I'm not trying to knock it. It's amazing. The history of it. And I'm around just,

everybody's a badass. Like when you go to Hawaii, I just see somebody and I'm like, oh, I meet this woman who looks like she's 32, she's 62. And she's going to completely crush me at the race too. You know what I mean? Like everybody there is the top of the top at everything too. They're all people that are so accomplished in life. You meet them and like you run a business and you're a mother of four and you're like the best triathlete. I just, I was blown away by the people I met, but Spartathlon, I met people that are like, when I did it the first time at mile 76, I DNF'd. I was not mentally prepared for running 153 miles in a row. I just didn't know what that was. I thought I did, but I didn't.

And I got passed by these two guys that are in their fifties that are German. I'll never forget this image. I'm on the floor, I'm done. Like turn me over, I'm cooked. I'm waiting to write my DNF speech. Keep in mind, I've been throwing up for eight hours. That's a different story you can find on YouTube.

It's hilarious, but still excuses. I should have finished. These guys are running in the middle of the night in Greece, drinking beers. These two German guys drinking beers. Like I'm not joking. They have beers. They look like they're out for a jog at mile two.

Their mental toughness is they will die before they don't finish this race. And I came home and I was so embarrassed that I, like, do you understand? You're like, I was just, I watched the people at the finish line. I was crying. I was so emotional. I, like, do you understand? You're like, I was just, I watched the people at the finish line. I was crying. I was so emotional.

You can see in this video, because I'm seeing people that are way less fit than I am in every objective measure. I'm like a 225 marathoner at the time. I'm seeing a woman in her sixties who can't run a four and a half hour marathon to save her life, who finished this race when I gave up.

And it's so inspiring. It's so humbling that when I came back the next year, it was like, my mindset was, there is no way I'm not finishing. And when we finished, I like broke down, I'm on my knees. And it's also epic because the Greek, the Greek, like the Greek community- Explain the idea behind the race

for people that don't know. So if anyone saw the movie 300, that Gerard Butler flick, they have a scene in it where they say, the way they frame it is that the Persians were going to invade Greece. And that in Athens, they sent a Pheidippides from the Acropolis. They sent this guy running and they retraced the steps, 153 miles. They said it was in 36 hours. This guy's in flip-flops. He ran there and delivered a message to King Leonidas of the Spartans and 300 Spartans at, forgive me if I forget the place. Thermopylae?

Thermopylae, yeah. Right there, it's like this near Corinth that they saved, they held off the Persians, thousands of thousands, tens of thousands of them. And that gave enough time for the Greeks to get assemble an army and eventually save civilization. Like they frame it as we would not have democracy here and now if they hadn't done this.

And if this one runner hadn't done this epic run. And so when you get there, when you like, everybody's honking their horns, everybody knows everyone's behind it. When you get in town, they have like a parade with thousands of people from the city. They put a crown on your head of like, um, olive branches that are wrapped together and you drink water that people give you in togas. When you get within a mile, all these kids and bikes are there. Everyone's honking. The whole city knows what you're doing. Like they are, it's not like a Boston marathon. It's not anything.

This is in their soul. These people are so proud. I can't even tell you. You bow before the statue and you deliver a message and you like hand it. And it's like a religious experience. And there's only like, I don't know, 60 finishers or something like that?

Every year it's like 20%. Most people that go there and the year that we finished up until that time was the lowest finisher rate ever because it was 95 degrees. There's no ice. It's like Europe. You know where there's no ice?

There's no ice. There's a funny story with Scott Jurek. Have you ever had him on? No, but I know him. I believe he's vegan. He couldn't get ice in his race report anywhere. The only place I think his girlfriend or wife at the time could get ice,

I don't want to spoil this story or like mass career, I remember, is at a butcher shop and he had to put ice all over him that was filled with blood. And this guy's a vegan with animal blood all over his body. I hadn't heard that story. Oh, great story. So I was-

Didn't Dean run it in the sandals? Yeah, Dean ran it in sandals. I can't remember how he did. I love Dean so much, man, the greatest. Dean got me into ultra running, like his book. I have his book, he autographed it. Like, and then we became friends since, but I have things like highlighted.

And I made him initial the line where he ran from Napa to San Francisco for a hundred miles overnight to then run the marathon. I'm like, dude, you are just, I love Dean, man. So what is the overlap? Like, how do these two worlds kind of coexist? I'm geeking out too much on ultras. No, it's like, I love it,

but like I'm interested in the overlap between what you do professionally and how you're running kind of informs that. Like, does it, you know, how does it enhance your creativity? What is the practice around that? What are the kind of mindset tools that you develop that are applicable in both of these disciplines? I've tried to figure out,

and it's hard to articulate some of it because everybody knows that if they find something that's a practice, like you just called it, whether it's yoga, whether it's meditation, whether it's running, is your brain gets into a zone that I think we don't have enough of nowadays, which is you tune out,

which you're not thinking of all the parts of your life that you have to do, and you're not on your phone or electronics or things that suck you in. And that's when my biggest creative bursts happen. They happen when I have to do something like you just said, necessity is the mother of invention constraints. You have to have those. And also when I'm running, I'm just like, that's when I zone out. I just, there's something about moving and it's different for all different people. It's funny because I don't think of running as something I would enjoy. When I see someone running, it doesn't look fun to me. And when I was a runner in high school and I hated it so much,

I still am that person. But something about it now just evens me out. The way my mind goes into that zone, it's made me a better mentalist because I go into that same thing where I can hyper-focus in a way. And it's kind of like visualizing a race. Before I'm ever at a race, I've already run that race a hundred times in my head. I've already thought through where it's going. And that same kind of methodical, deciphering all the little angles of it

and trying to also, while also just letting yourself go, it's a little bit of both. Like mentalism, what I do, it's an art and a science. And running, I think, is the same way. Yeah, I mean, the way I think about it is you're basically flexing this muscle of being comfortable with being uncomfortable. Like you're acclimating yourself

to a certain kind of discipline that just inures you to this idea that you always have to be like iterating and creating and pushing forward because the running, you know, is always like holding you to account, right? So if you carry that level of discipline into your professional life,

like these two things can feed each other. But I do think there's something you kind of just briefly mentioned about not getting ahead of yourself. Like in ultra running, like you have to be present with that pain and suffering. If you have such a long distance to go and you're having a hard time and you start thinking about that,

like you're toast, right? You're toast. You have to be rooted in the moment. And I would imagine not being a mentalist, but thinking like for you to do what you do on stage, like you have to be so in it in the moment of what you're doing in order to be able to execute. Yeah, I never thought of it that way,

but you're absolutely right. Like I can't, if I lose track of it, it's kind of like saying, if you're thinking about what you're gonna do after you catch the ball, you don't catch the ball. And that's a lot of my mess ups have been that I'm thinking too far ahead. And I really have to focus on what's happening at that moment. And running is, I don't catch the ball. And that's a lot of my mess ups have been that I'm thinking too far ahead. And I really have to focus on what's happening

at that moment. And running is, I don't know, it's a great escape. It's just, it's so fun to not know what's gonna happen. And with the ultras, the big challenge of it is just knowing that you're going to suffer and seeing how you're gonna do in the suffering. Yeah, and the longer it is, the more of a mental thing it is.

Yeah, it's all mental. And so, and the mental is what you do. Right, the mental is all I do. Right. They go hand in hand. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm actually trying, I'm planning to do a long run this summer.

I've been wanting to do it for years is I'm gonna run, cause I'm out in Long Island some of the summer from Montauk to Manhattan, which is around the length of a Spartap on 140 to 150. That far, wow. It will depends, as the crow flies, it's a little less, but there's no, it's not a, you know what I mean?

You gotta kind of weave a little bit if it can't be on the highway. And so I would love to do that and potentially to like for a few charities, give some money to some great causes, get some sponsorship deals and people on board. And I'm hoping to do that this summer. I've been, I wanted to do it last summer,

then a race got in the way. And then before that was COVID, so it was a little tricky to get it underway, but I think to do it last summer, then a race got in the way. And then before that was COVID, so it was a little tricky to get it underway, but I think this summer it'll happen. Yeah, but how many gigs are you doing right now? Ton. You're a maniac. A ton, maniac. And are they huge gigs, small gigs?

Like what does it look like now? It really varies. So, I mean, I would say I did an event in somebody's living room recently. That was for like 15 people. And then I have a show coming up that's for 15,000 people at an arena. So it runs the gamut.

I would say the majority of the events that I do tend to fall in the neighborhood of 150 to 1,000 people. I don't wanna say it's a sweet spot, but that's probably the most. And then I sometimes am doing things that are public ticketed, like fundraisers for various organizations that bring me in at galas and fundraisers

all across the country. And those I promote, like I put on my site. But like you said, the suit and tie, I'm big in the corporate circuit. So I don't have any touring theater shows. I had a residency in New York for a while and then COVID hit. So that kind of got shut down, but it's just companies. It's kind of one of those things like kind of like the speaker circuit where somebody sees me at one, I don't advertise. And then they like what they saw and they want me for this one and this one and this one. And that's kind of been word of mouth has been good to me. I could see you doing like a Vegas residency type of thing.

Isn't that where all the magicians ultimately go? I don't know if my wife will come with me to Vegas. We've had to talk and she's like, oh, you're going to Vegas. She's like a New Yorker at this point. She really loves the city. I think at one point I might do that. I also love running in Vegas.

It's just one of those places where I have such good runs. You never have to stop in Vegas. I can always weave. You know how they have, it's kind of reminds me of Michigan. If you go outside the city, I mean like Alex Honnold lives in Vegas and he loves it because he has access to all of these climbs and all this natural beauty that's just outside of town.

I did like a 40 mile training run once right before a gig. That's like my go-to is I just, if I land at 10 a.m., just drop my stuff at the hotel and then my wife knows, she's like can track me on there, like get back for the gig,

but I will just go as long as I can. If I can fit in. So you literally run 40 miles right before a gig. I mean, two or three days ago, it's all time constraints. So I got into Florida. I had to do a couple of things. I had some client calls I had to do. And then I ran 30 miles right at that point.

It was four hours. I ran, I was hitting 731s. And I posted online, but I just ran two hours out, two hours back. And then I got in and then I'm an expert at it. I have my like suit laid out. I'm nothing if not methodical. Shower, 25 minutes later, suit and tie ready, sound check.

I actually think it makes my show better. You could, you should FedEx your suit or whatever ahead of time. Yeah. And just show, you know, just wear your sweats on the plane and get off the plane and run from the airport to the venue. I'm sure there's a shower at the venue.

Get changed, do your thing. I'm too nervous about my stuff not arriving. That's like my nightmare. Even though the thing about mentalism, magic, you have props. Mentalism, there's no props. You are the show. That's why a lot of magicians eventually,

like some magicians end up going towards mentalism or they add it in their show because it packs small, it plays big. That's the way to describe it. And a lot of people, you don't need all the big props. Like you gotta bring cases and this and that, I need boxes and I need tricks. That's the way to describe it. And a lot of people, you don't need all the big props. Like you got to bring cases and this and that, I need boxes and I need tricks. That's the one sweet spot of it. I can show up. And if you lose all my luggage, you could send me to Staples. I'll get,

look, what'd I bring here? I brought literally a notepad and a Sharpie. Like that's what I need because a lot of times I have to connect, construct my thoughts. And I write stuff down before, because it doesn't happen in real time. I have to think of what you're going to do and kind of show you in advance, but I can do a show and I've challenged myself with nothing. Okay. Like 50 bucks, go to Staples and I'm ready to perform for a thousand people. It might not be quite as smooth. Like I might not have quite the accoutrement, but I can easily do it. Where's the big television special? I'm knocking on wood here. I had one on NBC. So I had one show on NBC that was a special. I got very lucky. We got

nominated for an Emmy and I won. And so I got that one and then I never got, I've never, you know, if anybody's listening right now at NBC or ABC, we've pitched a bunch, you know me, I'm determined. So I think it's on the trajectory, even though honestly, you know, what's funny is being on TV. I'm not saying I wouldn't want to do it, but every single day being on TV becomes almost less relevant because the people that are on streaming now have a global reach. So you can kind of create your own thing. There's people on YouTube

that are getting a thousand times the eyeballs of anybody on network television now. So it keeps just evolving and changing. And I have an idea that I've been trying to make for a while that's just a very unique special that's never been done before. That's a mentalism that's just like, I've always loved David Blaine and how he pushed the envelope

and he did it in endurance with his body as well as amazing magic. And there's a gentleman named Darren Brown, who's based in the UK. That's a household name throughout Europe. He's incredible. Who's been in the States. He's just not quite as famous here who created these just incredible specials where you, you know, what the mind is capable of in hypnosis. So I've got something. It's, I don't wanna spoil it yet cause it hasn't happened,

but it will happen in the next couple of years and you will hear about it. It's gonna be incredible. Yeah, that's cool. It is amazing what David Blaine has done. Have you had him on here? No, I haven't. I've never met him.

I'd love to meet him. Yeah. What he does is remarkable, but it's very different. So much of it is putting himself in grave danger and these crazy endurance challenges that he's done. But the hot air balloon thing that he did most recently was with YouTube.

Yeah, with YouTube. So it wasn't even on television and that's really the one that I watched. And I would imagine, I would love to see the numbers on that to see how many people watched the YouTube versus like his other specials. It was pretty remarkable how they documented that whole thing.

Yeah, it was so cool. And they had all the angles during and you could kind of live stream. And the cool part was the engagement. You could be chatting with other people about it during. So you're getting all the snarky remarks. I know. I don't know if you ever on Reddit,

but like some of the people in YouTube, the comments. I try to stay away from Reddit. No, no, but the comments are almost better than the content because they're so funny. There's people that are just, they just best jokes ever at the right moment. But yeah, they're all about, I think YouTube is very much looking for that live content.

Something that you have to watch in the moment to be there, kind of like the same way sports, where if you watch it the next day, nobody wants to watch the Superbowl recorded on your DVR the next day. You wanna be part of the zeitgeist in the conversation. That's why I'm trying to create something that's just like that, that's in the moment, you have to watch it, that something big is on the line.

All right, man, are you gonna fuck with my head or what's going on? Oh, we gotta do this. So we gotta tee it up, but I wanted, before we do this, I wanna ask you one thing here. I'm just going to write this down, which is I want them to know our history, you and I, because it's really important because if I'm listening to this,

I'm the guy who's like, well, wait, what happened before? So we got connected through Adam Skolnick. Is that right? We have connections because I've known David Goggins for a while and Adam knows David. And then Adam attended a Zoom show. So during the pandemic, like my whole career ended, I thought in April of 2020, I'm like, I'm a free man. I'm retired. I got to find

a new gig. And I started doing these shows over Zoom and reinvent, like, how can I do this? How can I read people's minds when they're not even in the room? Adam saw it. He told you, you guys heard about your New York City Marathon and you sent me an email. And it was like, when I was trying to connect and you, I saw the way you sign off, which I loved, right? Peace plus plants, right? You articulate those two kind of a brand messaging. I want you right now, and everybody should know this is right now happening.

You don't know what's about to happen. Do you guys have a Sharpie or something? Let me, I got a Sharpie. I think I got a Sharpie. Here, I'm gonna write this down and I want you to see it. Peace, and if you're just listening to this, just narrate for them. I'm writing down peace plus plants. Is you to see it. Peace. And if you're just listening to this, just narrate for them. I'm writing down peace plus plants.

Is that what just happened? Yes. Okay. And I want you to see it visually. How did you come up with that? I mean, I'm assuming because two things, obviously plant power, vegan and peace. Like what made you think of that

as what you were going to use as, what do you wanna call it? Tagline? It just, it happened organically. It wasn't like any kind of conscious decision. I think I just said it at the end of a podcast one day and I thought that was cool. And it just kind of became a thing organically.

And words have power, right? You've had 600, almost 700 of these things. You've changed people's lives all around the world. Here's what you do. I want you to jump down and think of another word. Okay, not peace, not plants. And don't let me influence you. Whatever words you want,

it doesn't have to start with a P either. Could, but it doesn't have to. And I want you right now to randomly think of a word. The only thing I ask, don't think of somebody's name, because if you think of your wife's name, your kid's names, that's a very obvious approach. Think of a word. It could be a noun, an adjective, a descriptor,

a verb, whatever you want. Think of a word right now. You got it? Got it. Now, you know what I do. And the problem is if I came into this fresh, if we did this fresh right now and you didn't know me, I would say, stick with that.

But what I want you to do is jump from that to another word. Now, hear me out. Let's say you thought of the word green. You might think of grass, or you might think of Michigan State Spartans. You might think of anything else that's connected to it. Whatever word you just thought of, I want to make this impossible that you don't say,

oh my God, he made me think of this word. So I want you to leapfrog like a game of telephone from that word, pick another word that for some reason connected that word to this word. Can you think of another word just because of that, that jumped into your head, that word made you think of a new word. So now we have two levels of separation, right? This is like, we're getting all the way to Kevin Bacon. You got another word in mind right now. Yes. One more time. Jump from that word to a new word. Okay. You got it? Okay. Can you tell everybody else, there is no way that I could have known what you would have picked because honest to goodness, you didn't even know what you were gonna pick. Is that true? True.

Okay. So tell us all, what is that word? I wanna know. I'm not guessing it. Enlightenment. Enlightenment. And you jumped from two other ones. We couldn't know what those are.

Now, can you tell everybody, we're doing this on audio or video. Can you tell everybody what happened? I don't wanna be involved in it. I don't wanna touch on nothing. So when we were scheduling this podcast and we found a date and we were just locking in all the details, you emailed me or you texted me and said,

I'm sending you this FedEx. I just want you to keep an eye out for it. And when it arrives, I want you to not open it, but I want you to sign your name on it and date it. Exactly. Write the date that you received it. Do you have it? Yes, it's that you received it. Do you have it? Yes, it's like right over there.

Can you grab it? Jason, bring that over. And I'm gonna hand that, I don't wanna touch it. Yeah. And I wanna ask you a question about this specifically, okay? Peace plus plants, did you sign that yourself? Yes. You did, where has it been since that moment?

That's the next thing I wanna know. It hasn't left this studio. Hasn't left this studio. And I wanna see if I have this, rip it open, please. I should have brought something here. Is there any conceivable way that somebody working with you could have switched the contents or inserted something in or taken something out?

This is my name and I dated it and this has not been open. And this, as soon as it came in, I did this. Perfect, now we see what I found in there. There's another sealed envelope and on it it says sealed on February 28, 2022 at 1119 a.m. and then you signed your name. So now there's two fasts to this because I wanted to make sure for my reputation

that nobody switched what's in there because then I'm on the line. And then on the other side, I said, please don't open it until, can you turn it around? Please don't open it until we are on the podcast. Now that one's still, if you look, there are sides to it. Tear it open as well, please. Okay.

Now, Rich, if you've learned anything about me from this point, I'm nothing if not methodical. So now we've got one more layer, done. Dude, okay. Now I know, now I know you guys didn't mess with my stuff. This is a manila envelope with my name and my logo on it. Bam, we got the logo baby, Rich. And there's so much tape on this.

We taped it like crazy. And that is why I brought a safety light over here. Like, what did you take out of your pocket? I'm not gonna be able to open this without that. Slice it open, Rich. How do you use this? I like how Rich doesn't open his own mail. No, don't go there, don't go there.

There's a little hole at the top. You ready? I like this, I see. And do a nice little smooth along the top. You're gonna cut yourself. Oh, be careful, here, do this, flip it over. Oh, I got it. I've never used one of those before. Now, there is a safety seal.

Can I show them this? Yeah. Can you guys, I don't know, do you wanna do this with the camera? Are you gonna do this for like a behind the scenes or no? Yeah, let's make sure we see what's going on. Can you guys see if it's sealed, the safety seal on here? And Rich, this thing, this knife, hold on, grab this knife. I want you to cut open the next thing.

We got business cards in here. Unrelated. Okay. It's cut in my pocket. Okay, so take this thing. Yeah. And can you confirm the seal is intact so can you see what i'm talking about do you see it grab it i don't want to this thing the seal take it out please safety seal this thing yeah it should be attached to the staples grab it out please all the way all the way all right and is it okay so it didn't rip safety seal intact and secure it was it was

stapled state will check it was attached to the staple. So grab it out yourself. I don't want to touch that one. Rich, roll yet again. Stapled everywhere. All right. Another light blue envelope stapled all the way around 360 degrees. Rich, this, that, this stapled. You could either cut it with that or you know what? Screw it.

You might be able to with the tape. Just rip that bad boy open. Tear. Tear like crazy. Can you get in or no? Yeah. Okay. Then pull this out, it's some note in here. I'm sitting there waiting for you, February 28th.

All right. So there's a- And I'd like you to, stop, stop, before we do this, put it against your body. You haven't read it yet, have you? I've not read it, no. You're sitting across from me. How many podcasts have you done? We've published 666. As of this moment, it, no. You're sitting across from me. How many podcasts have you done? We've published 666.

As of this moment, it might change. I want you to close your eyes. Close your eyes for me for just saying, you're holding this in your hands. Not gonna change. It's been in there since February 28th. Close your eyes and imagine that sitting across from you, I like to call it the ultimate interview

because you're a person who explores. You wanna get in depth. You wanna hear those moments. And I say to you, if you could, I ask people this question all the time. If you could have dinner or in your case interview, somebody famous, we've all heard of dead or alive, male or female. And the reason I have you close your eyes, cause like, it'd be like Googling this person. A picture is worth a thousand words.

See that person's face in your mind right now. Can you see that person's face? Like they're in the room with you as if he or she is sitting across from me. Say their name. Abraham Lincoln. Read what's in your hand. Open it up, please. The whole letter? Please. Hey, Rich, I'm very excited to meet you

and be a guest on your podcast. What I love about a great conversation is you never quite know where it will take you. Athletic achievements, past and present, seeing yourself cross the finish line in 728 or winning a race, maybe discussing our favorite books. I lean towards fiction, but could see you diving deep into a biography of Abraham Lincoln. you diving deep into a biography of Abraham Lincoln. Only,

dude. Only time will tell and hope it is very memorable for you and your listeners. Peace and plants and enlightenment. Oh, that is unbelievable. 728, Abraham Lincoln and enlightenment, three for three, that is crazy. So for people who are watching or listening,

it didn't quite get fully explained, but before the podcast started, we did an exercise where you asked me to go on my phone and go into Google image search and think of somebody dead or alive who would be a great podcast guest. And I just thought that I randomly selected Abraham Lincoln and I have it down.

You didn't look at my phone. I'm over here. Yeah, you didn't look at my phone. It doesn't really matter if I did it. And here is the picture that I pulled up on my phone a couple hours ago before the podcast even started. That's crazy, man. That is unbelievable.

I thought I had you. I thought I was immune from your wiles. Rich is like, I got this down. I got this. That's why I was trying to up the bar. Because my thing going in was like, I'm gonna pick something so obscure and crazy that there's no way that this guy

would be able to predict or with any, but you know what? I fell right into your web somehow. Yeah, of course you didn't go for somebody obvious. And we got a new tagline. We're putting out shirts. It's peace plus plants plus enlightenment. You heard it here first.

Now I'm gonna go back and like a forensic expert and rewatch this whole thing and try to figure out where the cues were dropped or how you led me in a certain direction to have me say those things. That's what I want our listeners, just up those download, to keep downloading this until we get it

all the way to the top iTunes. I like that, let's keep going. Is it all there? Is it all there? It's all there all the time. It's just, it's taking a puzzle and putting all the pieces together. It's a little difficult for most people to do

because that's my job. That's unbelievable, man. And I'm gonna watch Nightmare Alley now that you said it. You gotta watch Nightmare Alley, yeah. I hope I left you guys with a crazy moment. And we're gonna definitely do some stuff when we kill the podcast for all the team in here who puts in some really hard work,

incredible operation you've got. Yeah, thank you. Well, that was mind blowing. Thanks, man. I just, wow, unbelievable, man. Really a pleasure to talk to you. Well, that was mind blowing. Thanks man. I just, wow, unbelievable man. Really a pleasure to talk to you. You too. What you do is not only super fun,

it is a gift and it is beautiful. I've watched a lot of your videos and just to see how excited everybody gets and how much enjoyment and joy that you bring to people's lives. And now you get to go and do it in person again, after we've kind of weathered these last two difficult years.

So it's gotta be really gratifying to be able to do live events and be with people. There's nothing compares, like the Zoom stuff is fun. And I'm really not complaining because it was, put food on the table during this whole thing. And it was actually wild because at a certain point, you didn't realize you could actually do more events because you can just go into a studio.

I don't have to fly across the country. Just cranking out Zoom stuff all day long. Back to back to back. I'm doing one in Singapore. Then I'm doing one for Europe. And then I'm doing one for San Jose, like every time zone. I'd be up at 5 a.m., one at midnight. I could do multiple every day.

And I'm wearing the old Joko's. I'm wearing shorts and flip-flops to run across the street wearing a suit and tie up top because I have a studio that I rented and we decked it out. And it was incredible, but it never, it doesn't hold a candle. Like you gotta be, what I do is just the enjoyment of seeing people, feeling them.

There's nothing like it. I mean, I think almost every form, even this, interviewing somebody on Zoom is just not the same feeling. Yeah, you don't have to tell me. Yeah. I know the thing, man. Well, I'll be looking out for that special. Thanks.

There's anything I can do to help you. This was an absolute joy. I know you got to run and you're going to do this event tonight, but next time you come to LA or next time I come back. The same resort. I know. You're talking about mentalism. I was speaking at this resort yesterday

and you come in and you're like, I have to go to this place. I was like, I was there yesterday. And neither of us have ever been there before. And I'd never been there before. How weird is that? We've probably both been all over. If you like drop the pin on all the places I've been

around LA that they do events. So it's just, you know, confluence. A lot of stuff is like that. We're in my show, I'll get lucky and I'll take advantage of the luck. I have stuff where I literally get lucky. I'll just look at somebody and say, is it this? And they go, yeah.

And I'm like, I swear to you, that wasn't mentalism. I just swear to you, it was a guess that landed. And it's just, I get lucky with guesses. People don't believe me when I say I'm a very good guesser. That you are for sure. Thanks, Rich. Cool, man. Well, next time we go running and I'd love to have you back.

We have to definitely go running. I'm holding you to that because this was not enough today. I want to get out there, get some miles on the trails with you. Cool. So for people that want to dig deeper into OZ, OZPearlman is your website, ozpearlman.com, OZTheMentalist on all the social media sites. And it looks like Oz, you got to blame my parents.

Weird Israeli, OZ, like Oz the Mentalist, but I don't know, we say it OZ. Right, OZ it is. Anything else you want to cue people up on? No, if I end up doing this charity event, which I'm like 99% sure at this point, this charity run, I'll pop it up on? No, if I end up doing this charity event, which I'm like 99% sure at this point, this charity run, I'll pop it up on my social and it's gonna be for some great cause,

a couple of charities that I support all the time. And if you're in Long Island, come find me out there running. I'm gonna do some mind reading and running at the same time. I'll pick like a Thursday or Friday this summer and just do 135 mile run, just go suffer a little bit. Yeah, keep me posted on that. Maybe I'll pop in for a segment.

Yeah, I told your partner in crime, Adam, about it. And he like thought, he's like, yeah, we should do it. I know, I wish Adam could have come today. He's out in the desert. I heard. So next time. I'll be there in a week. Cool, man.

So that's it. Talk to you again soon. Peace, plants, and- Enlightenment. There you go. Love it, Rich. Thanks, man. Cheers.

That's it for today. Thank you for listening. it, Rich. Thanks, man. Cheers. That's it for today. Thank you for listening. I truly hope you enjoyed the conversation. To learn more about today's guests, including links and resources related to everything discussed today, visit the episode page at richroll.com, where you can find the entire podcast archive,

as well as podcast merch, my books, "'Finding Ultra, Voicing Change in the Plant Power Way," as well as the Plant Power Meal Planner at meals.richroll.com. If you'd like to support the podcast, the easiest and most impactful thing you can do is to subscribe to the show on Apple Podcasts, on Spotify, and on YouTube, and leave a review

and or comment. Supporting the sponsors who support the show is also important and appreciated. And sharing the show or your favorite episode with friends or on social media is, of course, awesome and very helpful. And finally, for podcast updates, special offers on books, the meal planner, and other subjects, please subscribe to our newsletter, which you can find on the footer of any page at richroll.com. Today's show was produced and engineered by Jason Camiolo with additional audio engineering by Cale Curtis. The video edition of the podcast was created by Blake Curtis with assistance by our creative director, Dan Drake. Portraits by Davy Greenberg and Grayson Wilder. Graphic and social media assets,

courtesy of Jessica Miranda, Daniel Solis, Dan Drake, and AJ Akpodiette. Thank you, Georgia Whaley, for copywriting and website management. And of course, our theme music was created by Tyler Pyatt, Trapper Pyatt and Harry Mathis. Appreciate the love, love the support.

See you back here soon. Peace. Plants. Namaste. Dude. Thank you.