The Rich Roll Podcast - Michael Muller On Swimming With Great Whites & Moving Towards Fear

Episode Date: October 12, 2020

Michael Muller is Hollywood's most in-demand photographer. But that title doesn't even begin to capture the breadth of his extraordinary, Hemingway-esque life. It's a path defined by his commitment to curiosity. An unquenchable thirst for adventure. Unbridled creativity. And an impulse to always, always move towards fear. Traveling to 60 countries before he even entered high school (a count that is currently at 200), Michael spent the greater part of his childhood living in Saudi Arabia. It was there that his passion for photography blossomed. The more he saw, the more he felt drawn to capturing his experiences in imagery. By his mid-teens that passion had already become a career, documenting the snowboarding & punk rock scenes across California. But he soon found himself behind the velvet rope in Los Angeles, documenting the next generation of silver screen superstars. But the ripe age of 22, Michael established himself as a leading Hollywood entertainment and fashion photographer.  Today Michael is the top dog in his game — a guy who has photographed everyone who is anyone for every prominent media outlet from Vanity Fair to Esquire: Joaquin Phoenix, Brad Pitt, Jeff Bridges, Robert Downey, Jr., Gwyneth Paltrow, Hugh Jackman, Bruce Willis, Scarlett Johansson, Nirvana, Leonardo DiCaprio. You get the picture. The question isn’t who has he photographed, it’s who hasn’t he.  That iconic photograph of Kobe Bryant bowing that graced the cover of TIME magazine in February? That’s Michael. That blockbuster movie poster or billboard you love? Chances are that’s Michael too -- the man behind countless studio campaigns from Marvel movies to Inherent Vice. But Michael’s truest passion — and a primary focus of today’s exchange — is sharks. Specifically, great whites. Documenting them on film. Understanding them. Educating others about them. And most importantly, preserving them. This conversation is about so many things. It’s of course a recap of Michael’s unbelievable life, which is more adventure novel than a resume. It’s about the nature of creativity. It’s about what drives him — his philosophies on work, passion, service — and the incredible power of the image to shape culture. It's about his relationship with fear. PTSD. And how swimming with sharks changed his relationship with himself and the natural environment we all share. It’s also keenly focused on preserving our oceans, specifically protecting our sharks, 100 million of which are killed every year. These apex predators are beyond vital to our ocean’s ecosystem, and without them, you’ll soon learn, our oceans will crumble. But more than anything, this conversation is about what the great whites represent: fear. It's about why the only way to overcome this debilitating emotion is to move towards it. To face it head-on. The visually inclined can watch our exchange on YouTube. And as always, the podcast streams wild and free on Apple Podcasts and Spotify. Charismatic and larger than life, Michael is unlike any previous guest I've hosted on this podcast. This conversation is one for the ages. Peace + Plants, Rich

I mean, the first thing I'd say is what I sort of write in every book, which is there is nothing to fear but fear itself. Do not let fear control your life. You're either in fear or you're in faith. I wanted to. And I think if you just try having some faith, trust the universe, follow your dreams, you'll start to see results. You just got to have that trust. And the second thing is the young creatives like, please, please, please follow your dream. Do your creative.

Don't chase the money. Because I, in 35 years, have never once woken up and been like, oh, I got to go to work today. Not once. I get paid and made a living doing something I love to do. I wake up every day. I'm like, oh, I'm so excited to go create. Such a gift. You know, we only get one life and I definitely don't want to be 70, 80 going like, oh, I wish I

always wanted to go here or do this. I always wanted to take pictures. Do it. Life's so short. It's precious. You have today. Forget about all your yesterdays. What are you going to do today? That's it. That's Michael Muller and this is episode 552 of The Rich Roll Podcast. The Rich Roll Podcast. If you're into great white sharks, or even if you're terrified of great white sharks, if you dig great storytellers and creative geniuses, then you, my friends, are in for a treat because today's episode is absolutely killer. We're brought to you today by recovery.com. I've been in recovery for a long time. It's not hyperbolic to say that I owe everything good in my life to sobriety. And it all began with treatment and experience that I had that quite literally saved my life. And in the many years since, I've in turn helped many suffering addicts and their loved ones find treatment.

And with that, I know all too well just how confusing and how overwhelming and how challenging it can be to find the right place and the right level of care, especially because, unfortunately, not all treatment resources adhere to ethical practices. It's a real problem. A problem I'm now happy and proud to share has been solved by the people at recovery.com who created an online support portal designed to guide, to support, and empower you to find the ideal level of care tailored to your personal needs. They've partnered with the best global behavioral health

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To find the best treatment option for you or a loved one, again, go to recovery.com. Have I mentioned that today, finally, after obsessively trying to make this happen for a very long time, I've got the great Michael Muller on the pod. Michael is, how do I describe this? He's like this larger-than-life, almost Hemingway-esque character who has lived quite the extraordinary life. He's an extremely talented artist and a charismatic figure who has packed millennia of adventure into his mere five decades here on Earth. This is a guy who traveled to 60 countries before he even entered high school, a count that's currently at 200. And after spending the greater part of his childhood living in Saudi Arabia, a passion for photography blossomed. The more he saw, the more he felt drawn to capturing his experiences

in photographs. In his mid-teens, his passion quickly turned into a career, documenting initially the snowboarding and punk rock scenes across California. And by the time he was 22, he had established himself as a leading Hollywood entertainment and fashion photographer. Today, Michael is the top dog in his game, straight up. This is a guy who has photographed everyone for every prominent media outlet out there from Vanity Fair to Esquire. Joaquin Phoenix, Brad Pitt, Jeff Bridges, Robert Downey Jr., Gwyneth Paltrow, Scarlett Johansson, Nirvana, Leonardo DiCaprio, and everybody in between. The question isn't who has he photographed? It's who hasn't he? That iconic photo of Kobe Bryant bowing

that graced the cover of Time Magazine back in February? That's Michael. That iconic movie poster or billboard that you love? Chances are that's Michael too, the man behind countless studio campaigns for everything from all the Marvel movies to Inherent Vice. And here's the thing, really. Michael's truest passion and a primary focus of today's conversation is sharks, specifically great white sharks, documenting them on film,

understanding them, educating others about them, and most importantly, preserving them. It's an obsession that led him to invent and patent a studio lighting system, which he now takes with him underwater to light the ocean life in ways never seen until now, shooting stunning and really surrendering photographs of these apex predators. He's currently transforming this imagery into an extraordinary virtual reality experience. He gave me a taste. It's really unbelievable. In the hopes of dispelling the many myths about these creatures and helping people to overcome the common fears that we have about these creatures. In addition, Michael has partnered with

Dr. Andrew Huberman at Stanford, who you'll recall from episode 533, and also who helped make today's episode happen. Thank you, Andrew. With this VR technology to help people with PTSD and anxiety. And finally, Michael is an avid philanthropist. He's worked in many capacities as a United Nations global advocate on behalf of refugees. He's also the co-founder of Kids Clicking Kids, which distributes cameras to children in hospitals and encourages them to photograph their world and many other philanthropic pursuits. So, this conversation is many things. It's a recap of Michael's unbelievable life, which is more adventure novel than resume. It's about creativity. It's about what drives him, his philosophies on work, passion, service, and the power of the image to shape culture. It's also keenly focused on preserving our oceans, specifically protecting our sharks. Over 100 million sharks are killed every year,

and that number is really shocking. To put it in perspective, sharks kill about five people per year. Five people per year in comparison to the 100 million sharks that we kill every year. It's unreal. These apex predators are beyond vital to our ocean's ecosystem. And without them, as you'll soon learn, our oceans will crumble. But aside from environmental service and preservation, I really think this conversation is about what the great whites represent, which is fear.

And the only way to overcome them is to move towards them. Yes, I'm talking about literally swimming at them to face them head on. And it is with this that I give you Michael Muller. So I feel like we just had a whole experience together for the podcast. The experience. We tried to get the VR working, the Shark VR thing. We might be able to get it working mid-podcast, in which case we'll take a break.

But I really wanted to see that before we talk today. Technology, gotta love it, right? It's crazy. Well, I was just saying like, yeah, the whole Oculus thing is at a certain point where it's amazing, but also not super user-friendly or it's kind of janky, right? Well, I'd say this, if your sons or my daughters were here, you'd be watching it. Yeah, right. They'd have it figured out for sure already. Our generation, yeah. I don't know if it's the tech or just us but yeah i mean

you know that's why apple's been so successful in my opinion simple yeah easy really the user interface is always super intuitive yeah whenever i'm making like websites and stuff i tell the developers and even ad clients i'm like people are they're not dumb but they're impatient like you got to be you know when they go to a site or something, you gotta be able to get to it real quick. Yeah. You're trying to figure stuff out, you leave. I know.

And at like 53, forget about it, you know? Right. That ship has sailed, so leave it to the kids. Well, listen, man, I'm so excited to have you here. I've wanted to talk to you and meet you for a really long time. So thank you for coming out. I appreciate it, man. My pleasure. This morning I woke up and I opened up Twitter

and I went, hit the discover tab to just see what the news was. And the number one trending story this morning was a shark attack on the Gold Coast. Did you see that? No, I was about to make a couple jokes in my head. I was like, political jokes, just going off, firing. But that actually makes my point even more strong, which is that the shark attack will always be the number one story, despite all the craziness going on in the world right now, that's the number one story.

And what got buried in that, cause I was reading about it, surfer attacked, lost his life, but it was the first shark attack, like on that whole coastline in like over a decade. Well, it was a couple of weeks ago, because I was just like, I went to the Hamptons a couple of weeks on the East Coast and that everyone was talking about it because the woman, you know, got killed a couple of weeks back, first time ever a shark attack. You know, this guy that you're talking about got attacked, lost his life or whatever. But if you look, you know, it's the first time in 10 years,

probably before that, that might've been the first one. Like the numbers are so... Right. Out of whack. So one thing you always say is like, yeah, when you, we were all terrified of shark attacks. I swim in the ocean all the time, open water swimming, and everyone is always like, what about sharks? What about sharks? Yeah, you have to bear it in mind. But the thing that you always say is that we're killing something like 100 million sharks a year. Yeah, and that's probably-

And then how many shark attacks are there a year? Well, there's five deaths worldwide on average five five five and you think about the probably trillions of people that are in the ocean in that year trillions not you know um what i do because i'll i'll be out surfing you know out here in point doom especially if it's like a gray, cloudy day by myself or, you know, only one other guy out. And I'll get the heebie-jeebies because I'm fine. You know, when you're under, when I'm diving, I can see the sharks. Like I know my environment.

I'm not scared. When you're on the surface. You don't know what's going on. That's when they tear. That's the fear because you can't see anything. And that deep, which is what led me to sharks to begin with, that deep ingrained fear that I have of this animal coming in and attacking me. I'm like, oh, I can feel – like I'll have the heebie-jeebies. Like I can feel a shark in the area.

I'm going to get attacked. It's going to bite my leg right now. And what I've learned to do, this is my trick to get that to go away, is I go, okay, I am more likely to win the super lotto twice this month. Not once, twice. More likely for that to happen than for a shark to attack me right now. And when I do those facts, it goes away. And I'm like, okay, it's not gonna happen.

Yeah, but jaws. Well, and if it does, you know what I mean? Like if a shark does attack me, and if I die so big, I'd much rather die by great white death than by cancer or any of the other. Seriously. I mean, you know what I mean? Like it's going to be quick and-

There'll be a good story. You just sort of let go and let the thing chomp and I'm going to help the circle of life and I'm going to feed this animal that's- I don't know, just acceptance of if that's the way to go. It actually is not that bad of a way to go, I don't think, comparatively speaking. Do you know Paul DeGelder? Yes. Yeah. Yeah. I've had him on the show. He's a buddy. And it's just so cool that somebody who literally almost lost his life as a result of that has now devoted it to the preservation of the animal that almost killed him. Mike Coots, Bethany, you can go down the list. Right, exactly. Shark attack victims, Bethany, you can go down the list of shark attack victims. Pretty

much 99% of them are always going to seem to always come out the other side, supporting the sharks, conservation. You know, I'm not, I'm not, you know, I don't blame the shark. Right. Rarely do you see someone that like lost their leg and they're like, I hate sharks. I want to kill them all. I haven't seen that yet on the news. When you see these people. It's a weird thing, right? That somebody who was almost killed by this animal then develops like a love affair with it. Well, how many dogs, how many people died by dogs this year? Right, I guess. Seriously. Icicles kill 670 people a year.

Icicles, not kidding you, falling from mostly in Russia, but 670 people die from icicle death. An exponentially higher number than shark deaths. Way higher. There's soda machine stats too. You know what I mean? People die by soda machines. That's a weird one. I'd heard that recently.

They tip over on people. Exactly. More than sharks. So you should be scared when you're getting a soda, much more than Jaws. So you mentioned the fear. Was that like a conscious thing, like I'm afraid of sharks, so I'm going to move towards this? It was, you know, Jaws.

It was a combination of Jaws growing up surfing in Northern California where the waters are populated by great whites. I mean, they would attack a seal with surfers out and everyone would go in and watch the shark and the blood in the water. And two hours later, you know, go back out and surf again. So I just had that fear. And about 15, 16 years ago, I'm like, you know what? I want to, I want to see a great white. I want to photograph one. I want to go see, like, I want to face it. Like I'm, and started saying that. Because of the fear or was that like the adventure impulse? It was sort of both. You know, I started diving at 10 years old in the Persian Gulf. I grew up in Saudi Arabia for four years and it was like untouched reefs. Actually, the first sort of photograph when I saw the power of photography, I took a picture of a picture of a shark with my waterproof camera at like 11 and developed the film and then showed my buddies and told them I had taken it.

Right. And they were like, no way. And then I had to like say, all right, it wasn't me. It was Nat Geo. But I saw their reaction. But the power of the image to inspire. Yeah. And so.

Came early. You know, I started talking about my wife for my birthday, got me one of those cards, good for one short trip, you know, which previously I'd never collected the race car or anything. And the next day I went down and signed up, went down to Guadalupe, first one in the water, six in the morning, still dark out. Was that the IWC campaign or that was prior to that? First trip just for you. By myself. And I was the first one in the cage and that shark came up five minutes in the water, comes up out of the darkness, swims by and where you are about that far from me.

And we locked eyes just like I'm doing with you. And my life changed. I was like, oh, I see you. You see me. You're not this mindless killing machine. Like it just from that moment. And on that trip, I was like hanging out of the cage by my waist. And, you know, I'd love to be out there.

But I still had a fear. And at the same time, I was shooting Michael Phelps and all the Olympians. I was doing the Speedo campaign, which I did for like nine years in a row. And a sort of combination of the two things, I was like, I want to light a shark like I do Iron Man. Like I want to edge light it and studio light it. Well, I can't bring the shark to the studio. I got to bring the studio to the shark. So I went online figuring there would be lights. They didn't exist. It was 400 watt and then big movie lights. So long story short, and then I could also do that with the swimmers and surfing and all types of

stuff. They didn't exist. So I set out to invent them. I'm like, well, I'm going to have to make them. And, you know, that's where fear comes in fear comes in in that place too like who are you to make a light how are you you're not gonna be able to make you know all that chatter starts happening but you know one thing led to another met one guy who you know met a guy actually got ripped off and I almost gave up and then I met this guy who looked at me was like I can do it and I believed that he believed he could and I'm like all right well I'll give you a little bit of the money. And then when you deliver, I'll pay you at all. And we got a guy from NASA, a guy from JPL, Jet Propulsion Laboratories. And we actually made the most powerful underwater strobe light. It's a pro

photo basically. And I received four or five patents on them. And IWC, the president, was in town. And I was putting their watches on celebrities. And so they came up to my house and I had showed them that one shark trip, the one trip that I had done. I told them about these lights that I'm making. And he gave me their Aquatimer campaign on the spot, which was like nine months ahead. And all of his employees looked at him like, you're giving this Hollywood portrait guy our underwater campaign? And at the time, I'm not David DuPillet

or one of these award-winning underwater guys. And I'm like, I'm going to crush this. I'm going to have these lights and everything. Mind you, the lights didn't exist at that point. The day before we left to the Galapagos, the lights arrived. I jumped in my pool, fired them. They worked. And I went down to the Galapagos, the lights arrived. I jumped in my pool, fired them. They worked.

And I went down to the Galapagos. Very naive. I had done one short trip. Didn't really know any of the statistics. And we were with UNESCO and the Charles Darwin Foundation. And that's where I got educated on what was happening to our planet. And this is 15 years ago. We were killing 100 million sharks.

Half the Great Barrier Reef was gone at the time. Now it's 60%. So we've already lost 10% in the last 15 years and all the other things. Right, right, yeah, it's so interesting. I mean, this is clearly you do lots of stuff, but this is your primary passion. And it seems in contrast to the other work that you do, but when you understand your full story,

like looking backwards, vision is always 20-20. It seems to make perfect sense, right? You're taking all of this studio cred and all the acumen that you've developed over the years, like working with celebrities and these movie campaigns and commercial campaigns, and then bringing that to the natural environment to like light these sharks underwater

to create these images that are truly like iconic. I mean, I was just looking at your book right now. It's just stunning. Well, that's sort of, on that trip, I went up to the roof of the boat one night and the stars were out. And I said to myself, I have three daughters and I looked, I said, I don't think my kids are going to be able to see some of this stuff. You know, the whale sharks I was seeing and the schools of Hammerhead. And, you know, I still had that fear, right? So I went from one cage dive with Great Whites down with no cages and hundreds of Hammerhead sharks and Galapagos sharks. You know, like I sort of got thrown into it.

But I said, you know, I don't think they're going to see this. So I made a decision. And that's, I think, anything in life. It starts with that decision. You know, I'm going to start biking or whatever it is. I'm going to, you know, create an app that's going to change the world, right? So I made this decision that I'm going to do everything I could to help sharks. That was the, of all the issues in the ocean, I'm going to help sharks and do everything I can to raise as much awareness, as much money to help this animal that's been so misconstrued by movies

and news. And the idea for that book hit me on that trip at that same time. I'm like, I'm going to do a book. And I saw the sharks coming out of light because I hadn't taken the lights yet and gone to do great whites or anything. And I'm like, if people see a shark in a way they've never seen them before, it's going to make them stop and look. And then I can educate them.

And I'm like, I want to do a Tashin book. This is 10 years before I got the Tashin deal. But the idea, that seed, at least in my life, I see it. So I'm like, all right, I'm going to do a book. And it's going to come in a cage and all this stuff. And it might take a decade. But as long as I'm walking towards that vision, it usually manifests. It's amazing how powerful our minds are to bend reality and manifest what we want in our lives, which in my opinion, or for me, it was to help our planet and help this next generation.

Yeah, and by picking a very specific thing to focus on, you can have more impact than just being like, hey, I'm an environmentalist at large, right? Like, what does that actually mean? Whereas this is very directed and is pointing people on a specific direction to really reframe how they think about like their relationship to this animal that we fear that is, you know, the apex predator of the planet. Yeah. You know, and it also takes an amazing wife and daughters that supported me because I did 36 expeditions, you know, that are self-funded. So I'm spending my own money on these trips. You know, it's not cheap to charter boats and bring home crews. But, you know, thank God for Marvel because I was, you know, shooting all these big movie campaigns.

They underwrite the whole thing for you. Well, they were paying me well and I would take that money instead of buying a bigger home or more cars and go do shark trips. So when you have that first experience with that shark and you're eye to eye, like you said, your life changed. Like, what was it about that?

Like, what did you see there that shifted you? Like, I wanna know, I wanna understand that better. Which you will shortly. That's the moment, right? You will shortly when I want to understand that better. Which you will shortly. That's the moment, right? You will shortly when I jack you into that VR. Right. Because it's the closest thing to being there without getting wet you'll ever do. That was the problem I had was how do I change people's perceptions?

Because that's what it is. It's a perception shift. With photos, it's extremely difficult because you look at that photo of the shark and you're like, yeah, that's cool and it's beautiful, but it doesn't really help shift the fear. You might hear my experience. It might make me more afraid. It might make you more afraid, right? TV, a little bit better. You might have a little bit more of a chance changing people's perceptions watching a box.

But what I found happened, and it's the most powerful, was every year I've taken, not every year, but quite a few trips, I've taken out friends, a lot of them sort of influencer types, actors and athletes, to Guadalupe, put them on a boat, actually in different parts of the world, and brought them to see the Sharks. My wife's a perfect example. So I brought her out with Philippe and Ashlyn Cousteau and his organization. We went out to Guadalupe and my wife, it's an 18-hour boat trip, cried almost the whole way. I'm going to die. I can't believe I'm doing this. I'm so irresponsible.

Of course, it's going to be the wife of white Mike that dies. And I'm just like, okay, babe. All right. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And the second dive, I think it was, she was not out of the cage with her flippers on, but standing on top of the cage, holding the chain. I thought she was going to jump on the back of the shark and swim away. That's how fast her perception shifted.

And that goes for pretty much everyone that I'd bring out. They would go out sort of scared of sharks. So what's happening though? What causes that shift? Like what is transpiring that defies the preset in the mind? Well, I think one is you're not seeing what we've seen so many times in the movies, which is this, you know, shark that just wants to kill you, you know, and they're watching me and my team out of the cage interacting with these animals. And

you can clearly see that these great whites really are, you know, trying to kill us. They're incredibly smart. They're apex predators. You have to have a tremendous amount of respect because, you know, they will kill you if you're, if you, if you're scared or act like prey. Yeah. But I, I can't tell you what's happening. What, what's happening only can give you is my experience is that I saw this animal in a different light than I did, you know, watching the movies. And I was like, oh, it's not what I was projected. Yeah. You had mentioned in something that I read that you can clearly see a difference in personalities across, like every shark has its own personality and you start to individuate and notice that. Yep. And genders, you know, the females versus the males, you know, females are always a

lot bigger. They're more chill. They're more, you know, inquisitive, whereas the boys are aggressive and just sort of like swimming around fast and just sort of like people, but they all are a little different and you really assess the animals when they come up. And here's all other sharks. Here's tiger sharks and hammerhead. Tiger sharks, we have to bait them to come in because they don't want anything really usually to do with us.

In Hawaii, different parts, they will. They'll come right up. But for the most part, sharks swim the other way when they see people. We're chumming the water and putting fish out so they'll come in. So that's pretty much every other shark. And then there's great whites, right? So great whites are ambush predators. So when you swim with great whites outside of the protection of a cage, it's not the shark that you see because they'll be out of the cage and there'll be a 20, 15 foot, whatever, 17 foot where the wall is. That far. Like right there.

And I look over. As long as we have eye contact, I'm not even thinking about. I mean, I am, but I'm not. My head's like this on a swivel looking around. Because eventually, I'm going to usually look down and I'm going to see that tail going. Right. Two and a half tons going about 20 miles an hour coming up at me like a missile. So, they're coming, which I then have to turn and swim head on at the shark coming at me at 20 miles an hour.

And the minute I start swimming towards it, it looks at me and says, I don't like you. You're a potential predator and banks off. Wow. Now. That takes some serious balls. So. Now, how do you learn that? If it's charging you, you got to charge at it. Yeah. So this is, you know, and that's the thing. There isn't like learn to swim with great white

school, you know, and this isn't, this is, you know, years and hundreds and thousands of hours underwater with all different types of other sharks. And my mentor, this man, Mornay Hardenberg, who's in South Africa, he's the one that taught me the skills of swimming with white sharks out of the cage. And how I learned that was about six years ago. I was out of the cage and my flippers were down. I was like this with my camera. And I see a shark coming at me like full speed. And I grabbed my camera and I remember in my head going like, all right, rubber meets the road.

Here we go. Like I'm ready. Holding my camera. I'm looking down. And off this shoulder, Mornay goes head on at it, holding his red camera with the two arms and the lights and goes straight on at it. And I watched the shark bank off. And the first thought was, that's the coolest thing I've ever seen in my life. Second thought was, he just saved my life.

Third thought was, looks like that's what you do. And when we got up to the surface, he said, okay, listen, when they come at you, you have to turn and swim head on at them, right? Which goes against everything in your, you know, especially after spending five, six years with them from the cage, watching those teeth and how fat. I'm like, okay. The next day, we were out of the cage and we had two of them come at us, One at him, one at me. I had no choice. So I did it. I'm like, all right, here we go. If you freeze, you're prey. If you freeze, you're done. So here's what happens. So everything in the ocean,

besides orcas, swim away from that animal. So everything like freaks out, everything. So the minute you start swimming towards it, that's not something they're used to seeing. Yeah, right. And the other thing is nothing touches that animal so if you go up and even give it a little pinch it's just gone wow gone what about the you always hear you should you're supposed to punch them in the nose is that is that a myth yeah urban myth yeah well here's what happens if you punch them in the nose punch your hands that mouth no that mouth opens up which is really wide so one of the things i do is

before i have a an expedition where i know i'm going to be you know outside the cage with white sharks for the weeks leading up in my mind sort of like baseball players visualize i visualize that shark not turning and what i'm going to do and how i'm going to twist my body and hit my you know use my camera to bump the side of his gills on the sides, which I've only had to do one time in all of the diving and all the times I've spent with great white sharks. One time a shark came by and he looked like he was going this way, and at the last minute his head went like that. My daughter, my 10-year-old, was in the cage watching behind me,

so I was not taking any chances. I just gave it a little tap right when its head moved and swam off. But never been bit? I mean, is that the closest call? Never been bit. Never even been really close to being bit. Right. Wow. But you do have to be, you know, with the chum in the water, you have to be really aware of your surroundings because, you know, a piece of fish can float by your arm, you know, and the shark's going for that fish and, you know, catches your arm. And, you know, for years people would ask me like, why do you do this? Are you an adrenaline

junkie? Was usually the common tag that would go with why I was doing this. And I couldn't really, I couldn't quantify, I couldn't answer them why I was doing it. And I'd be like, no, no, it's not an adrenaline junkie thing. And then a couple of years ago, I don't know, four or five years ago, I was underwater. I was with the sharks, and it hit me. It hit me like a bolt of lightning. I'm like, oh, my God, this is why I do this because it was really the only time in my life that I felt like I was really in the moment, like in the moment, truly. You know, nothing else is going on. And I was like, oh, my God.

And the hairs on my arms stood up in my wetsuit and i was like wait i don't want to have to swim with sharks to have this this experience i want this on land too which led me down a path of mindfulness and meditation and seeking that that experience out which i it's a practice that i try to do daily as much as i can of being right here right now now, in the moment, and not up here in the future in fear. Because once I started this project, I thought I was sort of a fearless guy. And I really had no idea how much fear ran my life. But smaller things like jobs and work and little things, and then how much I would react on it, just robotically, send an email, do this, try to do stuff, try to make the headset work,

force it, you know? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Instead of just being like, it's all cool. And finding presence in the most treacherous environment. Like we think of mindfulness in the context of, you know, a calm, quiet environment, but it's fear that brings us into the moment more than anything, right? I mean, I got to say for me, the more chaos and like when I'm on my shoots and there's a hundred people and people are, what do you want?

That's the most calm. You're like a Jedi. Yeah. Yeah. I'm like, ooh, when I'm at home and my daughter starts having some emotional meltdown or whatever, that's when I'm just like, ah, Roy, too. Wow, that's crazy. How old was your daughter when she first swam with sharks? So I have three girls. I have a 16-year-old and twin 13-year-olds, Clara the eldest. She started doing great white trips with me at nine and a half. I got them certified at like

nine and a half, 10, sort of fudge their birthdays. And she's done four great white expeditions with me. And she literally asked me last year, she's like, I want to go out of the cage. And I was like, I bet you do. We'll talk in 10 years after you put in all the time with all the other sharks, you have to earn that. Even though there's a part of me that so badly wants to take that out of the cage. That's pretty cool. I mean, my daughters are the same age. I got two daughters, 16 and 13, and I'm trying to visualize them doing something like that. I'm trying to visualize myself doing something like that. Like, that's just, that's super cool.

Yeah. I mean, I grew up, my father, you know, we, I lived, like I said earlier, I lived in Saudi Arabia for four years and traveled to 60 countries before I started high school. And it was one of the best. So when you're there, when you live in Saudi Arabia, they pay you three times your salary, free homes and all that. Most people just bank a bunch of money. And my dad was like, uh-uh, like this is a once in a lifetime we're going to travel and see the world. And every three months we had a big wall map. We're like, oh, let's go to India.

Let's try Sri Lanka. So you had gone to like 50 countries by the time you were in high school. Yeah. And I think that's, you know, I planted that seed as a photographer. I travel a lot, you know, now since been to close to 200 countries. But it's something I try to do with my family a lot and show them the world, sort of open their eyes to how good we have it here. So there's a lot of countries that, you know, people I think really take it for granted in America, like how blessed we are.

I mean, we have our fair share of issues. And in recent days and months and years, they're growing by the day. But we have an amazing country here. And it's just cool to see the world and all the different cultures out there. How old were you when you moved to Saudi Arabia? Third grade.

Third grade. What city did you move to? My dad built, was building a city called Jubail. It was at the time the world's largest construction project. He worked for a company called Bechtel, a big construction, you know, one of the, it's like Bechtel or Ramco on the floor. And he was the project manager. It was like, you know, building a massive, massive city. I've traveled throughout Saudi Arabia, been to a bunch of cities there and spent some time in Bahrain. Yeah. And what I didn't realize that I learned when I was there was that at one time,

Bahrain had some of the most amazing coral reefs anywhere. And the oil trade has just devastated it. That's where I grew up. So Bahrain was right off Jubail. Yeah. We would take Dow boats, you know, the Dow, the wooden boats. So we'd take Dow boats out to Bahrain. Right. Before the bridge was built or was the bridge there? Oh yeah, before this is late 70s, early 80s, right before Saddam let all the oil into the Persian Gulf, before this oil

trade. And to this day, I can see those reefs. They were the most untouched, gorgeous reefs I've ever seen to this day. Yeah, that's what I've heard. And they're gone. They're gone. And I remember when- The tanker, didn't they have to troll it so that it was deep enough for the tankers? I don't know exactly what caused it. I mean, I don't know.

There's probably a bunch of different reasons why it's gone. I just remember Desert Storm and the war, what affected me the most. I remember CNN showing the beach with the waves crashing, the oil waves. And I just saw those reefs wiped out. And I just was, it crushed me. I was like, oh my God, those reefs are all gone.

That's where you learned to scuba dive though. Yeah, that's where I learned to scuba dive. And, you know, grew up watching Cousteau and that sort of also planted. Right. So dad had the adventure gene. Yeah, and photography was his hobby. Oh, really? Yeah, yeah, yeah. So he had all the Nikramats and Nikons in the class and gave me my first F4. And I moved back to the United States in seventh grade and started shooting

snowboarding. It was just starting. Like literally it was the inception of the smart and started shooting snowboarding when I was like 15 and getting published. And me and my best friend at the time who was from Europe, so his parents sort of thought, gave him his college tuition. And we started the first snowboarding calendar, which the first year we lost our shirt. Second year broke even. Then started actually making it. When you were in high school? Yeah.

So you traveled to Europe. But you were living in Lafayette, right? Okay. So like traveled to Europe at 16, just the two of us, shooting pro snowboarders and we'd drive to Colorado. So growing up overseas, cause we would get to like Hong Kong and I'm 12 years old and I would leave for two hours and come back and tell my parents like, okay, the market's over here and this is there. Right. It's just a different time. Don't do that now.

Yeah. What the heck? Wow. That's crazy. Yeah. And then at some point you become this like unbelievable triathlete. Yeah, yeah.

This part of the story gets lost, but like, this is crazy. Yeah. You were like a champion triathlete and biathlete. It was at the same time. So in high school, you know, I, like seventh grade was the worst year of my life. Like, I mean, coming back from Saudi Arabia, all the other kids knew each other.

I knew no one had to like socially claw my way up the ladder. And sports-wise, I started water polo. But a year behind all the other guys, I was as good as the other guys but wasn't getting played. And I was at swim team and this guy started telling me he was doing triathlon, swim, bike, and run. And I was like, oh, I want to try that. And I went home and told my parents, like, are you serious? I'm like, yeah, I'm dead serious. And they got me a bike and I started riding.

And we live in the Berkeley Hills, so it was a lot of hills. Good riding. And I would ride 50 miles a day and I was doing water polo and swimming. And I went and did my first triathlon, which was a half Ironman, the Wildflower, which is a big baker's field. Yeah, I've done that race is a big baker's field. That's a hard course. Freaking gnarly. I didn't know any better, though.

So my first race is a half Ironman. And I get in, 500 people start the – or 700 people start the swim. And I can – I remember this day, this guy grabbing my shoulder to pull me back. And I'm coming out of a water pool and I look back and just kicked him in the face. So I come out of the swim in fifth place. Overall, pros and everything. My dad was like, what the F is going on? Like, no, there must be some problem.

You know, some, my son's in fifth. Go out on the bike, come back from the bike in ninth place. So literally, and this is out of everyone. And then went out on the run and hot. Out of everyone. Right. And then went out on the run. Super healing course. And hot.

Yeah. Go out on the run, walk half of the 13-mile run, and finish 99th overall and first in my age group, and I was hooked. That was it. That was it. I started doing them, 15 to 20 of them every summer, which was the season. I had 19, 20 sponsors, Revo sunglasses, Domino's pizza, side out sport, and, you know, placed fifth in the world at the world championships. Probably would have done a lot better, but I was heartbroken. Wow. At Olympic distance?

Yeah. Yeah. Olympic distance and racing against Lance Armstrong a bunch, because that's when he started doing triathlons before bike racing. And yeah, so I would do triathlons in the summer and do photography. And then did you, when did you, you moved to San Diego for a spell, right? Was that to tap into that community there? Senior year in high school, I would get out of school at 11 because of my triathlon to go train. So, you know, when I graduated high school, the day after I graduated, like, you know, June 15th, I packed my car up and moved to San Diego because the two meccas of triathlon at the time were Boulder and San Diego. And went down there and had a triathlon team at the time.

I've always been a bit of an entrepreneur. Like all the sponsors I got myself, I would go write. And then I was also shooting snowboarding and rock and roll. So the other thing I did in high school was I would write the labels and say that I was shooting for the local paper, the Contra Costa Times or the Contra Costa Sun to get the press pass. So I just go into rolling. You name the concert? Like backstage at Shoreline and all those places. Backstage. So I'm shooting rock and roll and I'm shooting snowboarding and then I'm doing my triathlons and I go to San Diego and I moved down to the beach and it's just party central. And I'm looking around at these guys that are like 21. I know I'm 17, 18. And

I'm like, if I don't get out of here, I'm going to end up a loser like these guys. And I'm like, what do I want to do? Swim, bike and run for 10 more years. And then what? Yeah. There's not a lot of, there's not a lot of bandwidth for rock and roll when you're living that triathlon lifestyle. You want to compete at that level. No, it was opposite. There wasn't a lot of bandwidth for tri and roll when you're living that triathlon lifestyle? No, well, there wasn't a lot. You want to compete at that level. No, it was opposite. There wasn't a lot of bandwidth for triathlon because I was planning my life. I'm like, what am I going to swim, bike, and run for 10 years? And then what?

So what do I want to do? I didn't do well in school. Like I wasn't like going to Stanford or anything. So I'm like photography. That's what I do. So I packed up, went with my buddy from high school who we did the calendar, moved to Boulder, Colorado for a season. And I was just heartbroken from my high school sweetheart ripping my heart out and doing what they do at that first love.

And then was in Boulder. He got a girlfriend, was doing his thing. And my best – one of my other best friends was in L.A. He was a musician. He said, come to L.A., come to L.A. I packed up, moved here. I was 18. And the rest is sort of history. Started shooting, you know, model friends and actor friends and that sort of- So you fell in pretty quickly into like the Leo and Balthazar crowd, right?

Balthazar- When they were prowling. He was the first non-snowboard. He was the first actor I shot. So I got here. Scott was really good friends with Balt and Davey. So I shot Baltazar and David Arquette. And then just friends. Like we all went to the Formosa.

It was the only bar that was sort of the underage. But yeah, it was like Leo and Drew. And at that time, this is before the internet. And with film, we just went, let's go take pictures. Go shoot pictures. No publicists. Publicists only came about when the internet and with film, you know, we just, let's go take pictures, go shoot pictures, no publicists. Publicists only came about when the internet came about. And then bands, because I knew all those labels, right, from shooting the things. So when I got to LA, they were like, oh yeah, come on in. So I went and then I started shooting Spin. And I remember

Spin called me to shoot some band called Green Day. And I'm like, Green Day? What is Green Day? I went up to Berkeley and we became like, you know, I shot all their stuff, shot their wedding, shot Billy Joe's wedding. And I was the punk photographer when punks were to blue and rancid and all those boys. That's crazy. It seems like it happened really seamlessly and quickly. Yeah. I mean, it did. It's like you have to have the talent. I think I, you know, I never went to school, so I didn't learn the rules, you know. I also, because I was like,

how am I going to learn to shoot people, right? I was shooting and snowboarding, and I found out about testing models, right? Because I was like, I don't ever want to assist. I don't want to watch you doing something I want to do to learn how to take, but no, I can do this. So I figured that models need portfolios, right, to go and get jobs. So I started testing models.

And I did a few for free and then I started charging 50 a roll and then 100 a roll and 150. But every one of those shoots I treated like it was the cover of Vogue or the cover. And I would be like, okay, I got to do six different looks within a three block radius and I would dress them. And then I was shooting my actor friends, which were, you know, it was like Leo before Titanic. Right. But you're on the inside, you have their trust. So you could go to the house parties and all that kind of stuff. I earned their trust because I would get, I would have photos that I could have made a lot of money with the National Enquirer, but I didn't because you do that once, you might get a good payday, but you're never going to – people aren't going to trust you. So I was their friend, so I would shoot stuff and shoot at parties and do stuff, but I would obviously have that compass of knowing.

Right. There's a boundary there. Well, there is, yeah. And yeah, and then I got agents and started shooting the rest, sort of. And never like technically trained, never apprenticed, self-taught. No, I went to Otis Parsons for one semester. They gave me advanced placement

because of my snowboarding work as a junior or whatever. Right. And I was like, what do I need a diploma for? Do I need to show this to jobs? And they're like, no, just if you wanna be a teacher. And I was like, what do I need a diploma for? Do I need to show this to jobs? And they're like, no, just if you want to be a teacher. And I'm like, okay. And I got paid to learn by these models, you know, because I was trying new films and doing different things like that.

And how does the studio work start to happen? I mean, didn't that begin with you starting to photograph like the superheroes outside of the Chinese theater? Studio work started happening in the second lifetime of my career. So I'm in my 20s. I'm shooting Young Hollywood. I'm shooting all the rock and roll. This is early 90s, Nirvana, and young kids in Hollywood with money and success.

And I, like everyone I knew at the time started doing drugs, had a big ego that like, cause I was triathlon mental. Like I would, you know, nothing's gonna, I'm never going to have a problem. And, uh, and, you know, formed a drug habit that got me by the back. What was the drug of choice? LA is the problem. I'm going to move to New York. The geographic. That was great. The geographic, yeah. This is the problem. I'm not realizing that I'm taking the problem everywhere I go because Michael's the problem. That took years to learn that.

Yeah. So that played itself out over a while, a long, long, how many years? Yeah. It was like, you know, four or five years. I was smart enough to go like, okay, I've got a drug problem here. If I don't put my camera down, I'm going to burn every bridge. And I made a conscious decision to like, be like, okay, if I'm going to be a drug addict, I'm going to be a professional drug addict. And that sort of happened in New York. Same triathlon mindset.

Exactly. All in. Exactly. But in the back of my head, I sort of knew, I just knew I was going to find my way to the other side. You know, my dad was, got cancer, diagnosed with cancer. So he started to, you know, die from cancer. That was sort of the end of my using. And when he, you know, passed away, I moved back to Northern California, you know, got arrested one last time and he passed away, I moved back to Northern California, got arrested one last time. And he passed away and I got out and that was sort of it. I started going to 12-step program. Yeah.

So that was the bottoming out was just your dad passing. Was that the moment? Yeah. That was a really pivotal moment. I think I had so much shame and guilt at what I had let happen to me that, you know, I felt like, I don't know if I would have ever gotten sober if he hadn't passed because it was so bearing on me. You know, I had this great career and this life that I'd built and I'd, you know, sort of flushed it all down the toilet. And, you know, when I remember I got

sort of got my, started the second, got sober, whatever, the new part of my life in Sacramento. And I remember going there. I'm like, I'm staying here six months and I'm moving back to L.A. Like, this is the armpit of California. Don't you know who I am? And I've shot Leo and Drew. Right. And I ended up staying, I remember, two years because when six months came, I was like, I'm not ready to go back to L.A.

But I milked Sacramento for all it's worth. I mean, did you go there for treatment or why did you go to Sacramento? Yeah, I mean, sort of. I went there under the tutelage of like a spiritual advisor and then got introduced to 12-step stuff. So got into all that and then started shooting and started shooting all the local bands. And then started slowly making trips down to LA and went into Von Dutch because I was shooting all these bands and I loved their clothes. The owner saw my portfolio, took me to lunch.

Huh? Tony? Tony? No, Tony isn't Tony. Oh, who is... There was a guy named Tony that I thought was running Von Dutch. There was a guy named Mike Cassell and then this Taekwondo Swedish guy named Tony who were the two owners of Von Dutch.

Uh-huh. That's the guy. There's a lot of politics. And then Tony kicked Mike out and brought in Christian Adjulaire or whatever and the Tom Hardy, all that good stuff. Yeah, I remember that. But the Von Dutch campaign came out. I mean, Paris Hilton came in for it. But that campaign launched and sort of put me back on the map.

And the ad agency started calling. And I started doing these big chorus campaigns with giving me the money to come back. So I moved back to LA and I remember I was like, you know, two years into this new life of mine. And, uh, when I was up in Sacramento, I was, you know, dating, just dating a lot of girls, but being really honest, this is what I'd be like, listen, I'm not emotionally available. I'll take out on dates. We'll have fun, but that's all I can give you. And they're like, yeah, yeah, cool. And then like six weeks or a couple of- Chaos ensues. They'd be like, I can't do this anymore. I'm starting to have feelings for you, but you told

me, but I'll tell you my guy, the one thing my spiritual advisor gave me, which saved my life in a lot of regards was he looked at me and says, do you know what you're looking for in a wife? And I'm like, yeah, yeah. He's like, what? And I gave him the generic, you know, I don't know, funny. He's like, no, no, no. You're going to go home tonight. You're going to write down the 10 core principle things you want in a wife.

And I was like, okay. And I did. And I was like, you know, good relationship with dad. No kids. I want to create a family, not marry into one, you know, has her own life, spiritual, made all these things. And I shortly thereafter met this girl who was like a hairstylist and a boring end to it. And I was like, oh, she might be the one. She had two kids on my list. I'm like, you're not the one. So I moved back to LA,

two months into moving back. I met my wife to this, you know, who's my wife now. And it was like, check, check, check, check, check. And that was it. Baltazar and his wife were actually the ones who I met. But that list, because I look back in retrospect, you can't ever, like you just said earlier. And I was like, oh, my God, if I hadn't made that list, I wouldn't be sitting here talking to you right now. Who's that spiritual advisor? You're being cryptic about that, but like, I want to know about that guy.

No one knowing you would know. I've had many of those over the years, man. I'll tell you, those mentors that have, you know, there's been a dozen, you know, there's been a bunch that have given me those. And, you know, it's just a matter of being open and seeking. It's like the Kabbalists say, the darker you are, the more opportunity of light to reveal, right? So I went really dark, which means on this new path, I'm seeking the light like no other. Yeah, but the darkness is the teacher. You know what I mean? When I think of a photographer of your caliber, I think of a particular kind of lifestyle,

lots of women, lots of parties, and you did all that. You had your moment with that. And now you have this kind of spiritual path where you're into all this holistic stuff and the environmentalism. And I know you're part of like the Laird and Gabby morning workout with the Wim Hof breathing and the ice baths and like all the stuff that you do to, you know,

be this, you know, be the most authentic, best version of who you are. So you can express yourself and share your gift and raise your family and, you know, be the man that, you know, you're meant to be. Yeah, you know, one of the sort of aha moments was the realizing the PTSD that I had that I didn't know. Yeah, let's talk about that.

I mean, I've read that you've had that and that you deal with that, but what is the origin of that? Well, I thought you had to go to Vietnam to have PTSD. You know, I was naive. Like, PTSD, I don't have PTSD. I remember the first time I started doing therapeutic work with my – with the counselor. I was looking at my trauma egg and I'm like, yeah, it's not that bad. He looked at me and he's like, Michael, I work with like soldiers that come right off Afghanistan and you've seen more shit than 95 percent of them. Like don't think for a second that you don't have some serious issues. So, you know, when you have PTSD, there's big P and small P,

which I've learned a lot from Andrew Huberman and different people about fear and just different things. But when you see anything that's perceived death, death, or near death experiences, it imprints you, right? And I have a different emotional reaction than, say, a normal person or a person that doesn't. So, like, when my wife yells, I feel like I'm dying. Like, it's crazy, this emotional reaction. And if you don't deal with those emotions, it's like a pressure cooker. Stuff, stuff, stuff, explode, right? Or medicate, right?

You know, which I think if you look at the core reason why people abuse drugs, they're medicating pain. I would say probably 95% of them. That's why they're taking drugs. They want to medicate. They want to numb that pain. Now, that's one way of going through this life. You can numb the pain, right? And then you're numbing all the joy.

You're numbing all the happiness. You're numbing everything. Or you can realize those wounds, right? Bandage, patch, let them heal, look at them as scars. Like I have a scar on my face that I see every time I look in the mirror. It's there, but do I still feel that fence ripping open? Doesn't affect me, but that takes work. That takes looking at those wounds.

Where the origins, I had a lot of childhood trauma, you know, from emotional, childhood trauma, you know, from emotional, physical abuse, you know, and then those dark years that I was, you know, abusing the drugs, I saw and did a lot of things that were just dark, just, yeah. One of the things you do in the trauma therapy I did is a trauma egg and you start from your first, you know, your first memory of any near death or, you know, your first memory of any near death or, you know, and had a big piece of paper about half the size of this table and started with a circle down here, circles. And I literally almost filled the egg up with these,

you know, near or death that I'd seen people being killed, whatever it might be. And, you know, I still looked at that, like I was saying, and was like, eh, it's not that bad. You know, I didn't, and you know I still looked at that like I was saying and was like eh it's not that bad you know I didn't it's not that bad

you didn't drive your Humvee over and you know an IED yeah it's more like death by a thousand cuts right like these

these incidences that would recur in your life that accumulate over time to create this situation and everyone

everyone has them you life you have these experiences in life right that are traumatic and that are painful. Who helped you realize this? Were you working with a therapist or psychiatrist? Yeah, I think, like I said, all those different spiritual people or mentors over the years that have guided me.

How did I find out about trauma? I had a guy that I was working with in a 12-step program come over to my house, looked at me, and he was like, listen, Michael, I don't think I can help you. And this guy had worked with like Mike Tyson and different people. And he said, you have something that's beyond, which took a lot for him because the ego said, oh, I can help. And he had the humility to look at me and said, I can't help you. I think you have something that's beyond my skill set. Was it Howard? Well, this person, I'm going to remain nameless, but he said, I want you to call this guy.

So I cold called this guy, West, and he was a guy who was 25 years sober with a gun in his mouth. He also had PTSD that he didn't know about. And he told me this story and he's like, Michael changed my life. And then he gave me the number of my first trauma therapist named Ryan Suave, who I called Ryan. And he actually flew out here and we spent four days together out in Malibu, 24 hours a day doing therapeutic work. And it was one of the gnarliest experiences of my life. Like it was extremely tough, you know, for breath work, meditate, like hour and a half long sessions a day. Like it was, it was hardcore. And that was my first. And you know, now I do some EMDR work, which is another form of trauma therapy where you're looking at a thing, your eyes going back

and forth. And it's, it's been really cool because I talk about it and there's been a number of people that have come up to me and said, I can't thank you enough. I didn't know anything about it and I actually had it and I've addressed it and I can't tell you my life isn't, you know, and that's what it's all about. Yeah. When you can really sort of pass on what was sort of so freely given to me. And so how is it for you now?

Does it still show up? Like, is it something that you just unconsciously have, you know, sort of resort to these tools to manage it? Or is it quelled and kind of in your past? Daily practice. Yeah. No, man, I'm stuck with Michael till I'm off to the next one. So when the wife yells, the bells still go off.

They do. And something I'm working on literally today is not reacting, not taking it personal, not realizing it's her thing. It's not mine. It's just me. I want to take it. Oh, my God. And when I do that, when I don't react, it's freaking amazing what happens. Because I don't know about your wife, but wives like to pull the pin and throw a grenade, right? An emotional grenade that just blows up. You're

like, where did that come from? Why are you blowing me up? And when I react, it just, it lasts all night, right? And when I don't, it's crazy because she'll throw the grenade or she'll say the things. And then two minutes later, she's like, hey, love, come over here. And I'm just like, what? You're uninstalling the buttons. Yeah. Yeah. Right? Yeah.

That's powerful. And, you know, one of the things is being a parent is this, you feel this need to protect your kids from any of those traumatic experiences. Like, oh, I don't want them to feel that. I don't want them, you know, or at least sometimes my wife will do it. And I'm more like they need to go through these things. The only way to learn is for their friends to diss them and not invite them to that party. So they realize what it feels like when they don't invite people to things. Yeah. It's a conundrum because the most interesting people that I know have had those dark moments

of the soul and have figured out for themselves how to, you know, repair their lives and they come out of it and become these incredibly interesting, amazing, productive people. And then, you know, you sort of have some success and you're able to provide for your kids in a certain way that maybe you weren't able to have. And by doing that, you're depriving them of certain life experiences that can be formative in the most positive way. Yeah. And then you also, I know I have to own the things that I've passed on that I go, oh my God. Because I think in my head, I had that illusion, like I'm never going to do the things my parents did. I'm going to be this great dad. And then,

you know, in retrospect, I'm like, fuck, I wasn't perfect. Yeah, my daughters let me know every day. Right. But what the beautiful thing is, I do have today, you know, I have this moment to either undo or do things differently and, you know, try to fix. I have, you know, pretty good, amazing relationships with my daughters. I hear from other fathers that get the hand or whatever, get the door slammed, which would suck. But that was a choice. I remember when Clara was six months old, a couple of studio heads, different people told me they were working all the time. They missed their kids growing up. They were getting remarried, and they had their new baby, and they're like, Michael, don't do it.

And I've made a conscious decision. I did a job when Claire was six months, a Nike gig in Greece, whatever, and missed the vacation or left for part of it. My wife was like, eh, it sort of sucked. From that moment on, I've made a decision that when I'm on vacation, like no matter what comes up, I'm with my kids. And probably passed on some of the biggest jobs of my life doing that. Also going to all my kids' games when I'm in town. But what I have today is a relationship with my daughter. I don't get the hand.

I don't get the door slammed. Are they perfect? By no means. That's beautiful, man. We should jack you into some VR. Yeah, let's do the VR. We'll take a quick break and report back. We're back.

I just had the VR experience. That was insane. Cool. That's my first legitimate VR experience period, but then to have it be your work and just to have that experience of being underwater, immersed, surrounded by these creatures. I mean, it was magical, man. Yeah. It's crazy.

Is that publicly available? Like what is the- It's going to be, you know, it was a year and a half crisscrossing the planet, capturing all that, you know, that bait ball. The sardine run is like the holy grail of footage. And where was that? Where was that from? Port St. John, like the armpit of Africa.

Port St. John's, it's one of these, you know, you see it on like Blue Planet and stuff. Right. It is so hard to actually get on one because it's 20 miles of ocean, right? And you'll see the birds funneling down, but if the bait ball is moving, right, you can't do it. So you need the bait ball to stay static. You need the dolphins. You need everything to come together. So it's taken me three years, multiple trips, right?

Twelve hours at sea in a Zodiac all day long looking for it, right? Because you'll see and then you'll race over and we have a spotter plane. But the plane is like seeing it happen and it takes you a half hour to get there in the little Zodiac. Right, that's moved. Anyways, and with this new technology. So, the only way to shoot VR was with GoPros, underwater VR, right? Which is GoPros.

And I'm like, I am not making the blue planet of VR on GoPros. So I had these, I met this company Virtue who had figured out how to do stereoscopic, but this is like the first iteration of it. 120 pounds, the camera was this big with 14 black magic cameras. And it was sort of a science experiment, right? So if one camera went down, you lost the whole, you lost it all.

Right, because then you don't have the stereo. Which happened on a number of dives, right? So on the sardine run, I was just so stressed. I'm like, that can't happen. I don't get a second chance with this. And I just remember we were in the boat, and I saw some birds starting to drop. And it wasn't like a big amount.

It wasn't like the one where you're like, that's the one. And Mornay was like, I don't really. I'm like, well, I'm going. Like, I don't care. He's like, okay, I'm going. And we came up and came up on it, which the Brewster whale hit it. We had a 36-minute bait ball, like just the two of us. One of the best dives of my life.

The Brewster whale came like three feet from me and hit the bait ball. We hadn't seen Brewster whales in eight years. It was like the cherry on top. And I remember putting the camera up. I'm like, please tell me. Please tell me that they're all running. And they were like, they're all working. I'm like, ah, because to this day, it would bug me to show you that and be like, oh, I wish you had seen that.

And you're a pilot too? No, no. Who's flying that little seaplane? Oh, my God. The microlight, like I was more scared to get in that. I you're a pilot too? No, no. Who's flying that little seaplane? Oh my God, the microlight. Like I was more scared to get in that. I'm not kidding you. That thing looked pretty shark thing. Dude, it's like an iPhone for your GPS. I sent my producer up in it. I sent like four people up before I went up in the thing. And then of course I told the pilot, I'm like, dude, don't try to impress me. Like you don't need to fly two feet off the water. I don't need that.

It's like a go-kart. Of course, he did it. Because if you go down there, there's no Coast Guard in this part of Africa. Like, you're done. Right. And it is the most shark infested. Like, he's up there and he sees great whites on the surface. Like, there are sharks all over the place there.

So, I spent a year and a half doing that. And then, you know, VR is such, I'm like a couple of years ahead of like, it's just, it's in its infancy. Yeah, of course. And we just didn't know what, we knew we're sitting, I'm sitting on this mountain of footage and this mountain of IP, but, you know, the outlets for it are just sort of discovering themselves. Yeah, until everybody has an Oculus, like how are you supposed to enjoy it? I mean, you can watch it on your phone and move your phone around, but that's not the experience that you want people to have. No, but that is a cool experience. So that's one of the things that most of the VR haven't done. So we're putting it out on mobile. So everyone will be able to watch it on your phone, which is cool because not everyone has a headset. But since COVID started, you can't buy headsets.

They're sold out everywhere. Oh, really? I didn't know that. Yeah. And everyone's, I think, just sort of sick of Netflix and all the shows that they've seen. So they're grabbing their headset. Well, let me see what's on here. So we have – it's done. We're talking with – and I don't know if – we're in the talks with a huge brand to sponsor the series. They're a little bit, or the middle, it's a little bit dragging its feet.

So I might just have to release it without them attached. I really want them attached, but it's gonna come out in the next month or two. Right, so it's not publicly available right now. No, not yet, but soon. So there's an entertainment component to it. It is like the blue planet of VR experiences underwater, but there's a therapeutic component to this as well,

which is where Dr. Andrew Huberman enters, right? So when he was on the podcast, he was sharing a little bit about it and he was doing it in the context of explaining how he was using this modality to help people confront and work through their fears. We were talking about David Goggins and his fear of sharks, and he basically had an experience with your work.

But how did you connect with Andrew, and what is that aspect of this whole VR thing all about? That was like the universe transpiring is what that was. Because I had the idea for this about four years ago. I was sitting at LAX on my way to Antigua, and I was sort of done with sharks. I spent 15 years. I sort of did the book. I did some TV shows.

I just was like, I don't know what else I can do, really. And it's so hard to change people's perceptions unless I can bring in. I can't bring everyone. And I'll still do a trip a year or whatever, but I'm not going to do what I've been doing. And I'm going to start my horse project, which my next book with Tashin is a horse book. And I'm sitting in LAX and I'm like, VR, that's the future. And I'd never put a headset on, never tried it. I just was in my head going, that's the future. Where do people want to explore space? NASA owns that. Underwater, I own that. And started, in my head, I'm like, it's a camera that has, it's a ball of cameras. It's a camera that's pointing everywhere.

So if I put that camera on a stick and it's pointing everywhere, I'm taking you with me. Hold on, I can take you on all the dives with me. And I picked up the phone before we boarded and I called my media company. I said, I want to make the Blue Planet VR, but I want to do it for Nat Geo or Discovery. I want to own it. Will you call the top five production companies and see if they're interested? I'm going to T. Well, I'll call you in three weeks when I'm back. I get back. I land literally in Miami and my phone's like, blah, blah, blah. And he's like, they all want to meet you. I'm like, oh, great. That means it's a good idea. So I get home on a Wednesday, start making those calls.

Two days later, Saturday, I get a phone call out of the blue from Andrew Huberman, who knew Ryan Suave, my trauma guy. And he said, hey, I'm interested in your shark work. And I'm like, yeah, okay. And he's like, this is Andrew Huberman. I had a neuroscience Stanford book. He's like, were you scared of sharks? And I said, yeah, I was petrified of them. And he's like, okay, and now you swim with great whites with no metal suit, no protection, just your camera. And I'm like, yeah. He said, well, what you've done in the neurology is like the free climbing of neurology

and you've rewired your brain. And I want to bring you up here so we can start working with you and studying with you because I want to use VR technology to help people overcome PTSD and anxiety. And he didn't know about your interest in VR. I'm starting a VR project right now and I have PTSD. And he's like, no way. And I'm like, yeah. We ended up talking for like two hours that night. And you guys are kind of cut from the same cloth. Totally. But I didn't know, I'm thinking a scientist with the white lab coat and the, and I ended up flying up to Stanford and we met and like, of course, when I met him, I'm like, we're too, you know, he's like not your typical scientist. He's into rock and roll and you know, all the things. So I do remember the first thing he did say to me, cause I'm going to tell your listeners something. Some of them might

enjoy hearing this. He's like, do you smoke? And I'm like, no, but I chew Nicorette because when my daughter was born, I stopped smoking and I started chewing Nicorette. And at that time, my daughters and my wife and everyone was on me to quit. And I really didn't want to, but I was like, whatever. And I'm like, no, but I chew Nicorette. He's like, oh, that's actually good for you. He didn't say that. He said, we actually, that's the first thing we give Alzheimer's and Parkinson's patients is Nicorette to chew. It's the perfect delivery because nicotine is a stimulant and helps their memory and it helps their focus.

And it doesn't work with smoking or chewing tobacco, just Nicorette. And I'm like, yes, no wonder. That's why I love it. Well, then I'm not stopping. I don't want an addict that- I don't want Parkinson's or Alzheimer's. And then I was with a big actor buddy of mine whose doctor told him the exact same thing because he's choosing it. So I'm like, yes, I'm not showing. Anyways, we started, he built his VR lab. At the time,

he had nothing. So he started building a lab. I brought five of his scientists out to Guadalupe because I'm like, so the first thing I was like, I need to make a proof of concept, right? To raise money, I needed to raise money, right? To make a VR, the blue pan of VR, I need money. And I didn't know I needed cameras at the time. But I got the GoPros, went out to Guadalupe with him and four of his scientists. And that year, I don't know if you ever saw the great white that got caught in the cage. No.

It went viral. It was on every news, CNN. So a great white got, they pulled the bait and there's little windows for cameras in the cages. And this little juvenile great white, its tail went and it squeezed through and it's thrashing around inside the cage. Someone's filming all this. And they're watching and in like 45 seconds, 30 seconds later, pull up the top, and the shark jumps out and swims out. And then a person pops up, and there was someone in the cage the whole time. And there's a whole politics with that.

Anyways, that went viral, so there was a lot of pressure at that time on all the boats and the Mexican government. Everyone was pissed and like, you guys look like you're irresponsible. So here I am asking to go out of the cage, is illegal and you know whatever with a big vr ball camera and they said we're gonna let you do it because you're doing it for ptsd like we're gonna turn turn give you an example we're gonna turn the way the other and let you do so i made it and my takeaway coming back was all right i need to raise millions of dollars and i need to build a whole new camera system that doesn't exist because i'm not using gopros and i need to raise millions of dollars, and I need to build a whole new camera system that doesn't exist because I'm not using GoPros,

and I need to do both of those things in like three months because animals are migratory. So if I don't get it done in three months, I have to wait a whole other year. And I went up to Facebook, and I started, because Blue Planet took six years and $60 million, somewhere in that, five years and $50 million, whatever, a lot to get done.

And I was like, I'm going to do this in a year, and I need not that much money, but whatever, 10% of that, a lot. And no one was putting money into VR, especially this type of VR. Facebook was like, yeah, it's really cool, because when I cut it, when I put it together, I was like, holy sh, this is amazing. And I wanted it to be stereoscopic. Anyways, long story short, and this is sort this is amazing um and i wanted to be stereoscopic anyways long story short and this is sort of how i know the universe transpired with the whole thing so i met andrew doing that which we got a permission to exit the cage because of the scientific work with it with

mercy ohoya so we were elite allowed legally to leave the cage and film when we were down there my chiropractor of all people has this book in his office signed. And he does the Clippers and who's who in Hollywood or whatever, right? Rihanna's walking out, Bieber's walking, he's that guy. And he calls me and he's like, hey, one of my clients wants to meet you. He saw your book. And I'm like, yeah, dude, anything for you, sure. Tomorrow, Peninsula Hotel.

I'm like, great. I hang up. I call him back and I'm like, who am I meeting? for you. Sure. Tomorrow, Peninsula Hotel. I'm like, great. I hang up. I call him back. And I'm like, who am I meeting? You couldn't be asking who. No. But I called him back. I'm like, well, who am I meeting?

Because this could be. He said, oh, it's a great guy. He's a diver. He's like a billionaire. And he loves the ocean. I'm like, OK, great. So I go down the next morning. I bring the VR with the little two-minute sizzle thing.

Show it to him. And he's like, oh, you know, he takes it off. And he's like, holy shit. Like, wow, that is amazing. I'm like, I'm looking for an investor. He's like, well, you have a business plan. I'm like, yeah, he's like, Oh, send it to me. You know, maybe I'll do it. I'm like, great. Send it to him. Radio silence for three weeks. So I remember laying down like three weeks later in bed. I'm like that guy's, you know, flaking. All right. I'm going to put out the great white thing and I'll try to sell that, raise the money, do the rest. The next morning I get a text from him. He's like, that guy is flaking. All right, I'm going to put out the great white thing, and I'll try to sell that, raise the money, do the rest.

The next morning, I get a text from him. He's like, so sorry. I was in the Cayman Islands. I want to invest. Can you be in Texas tomorrow? And I'm like, yeah, yeah, I'll be in Texas tomorrow. So I went out, and I sat across from him. I said, listen, we don't have the time to do a month-long negotiation.

I need the money. I need it tomorrow, or we're going to miss. Do a month-long negotiation. I need the money. I need it like tomorrow or we're going to miss. And we hammered out a deal, and he was like the dream investor, sort of blank check. Wow. With his only – his goal was to go on some cool dives with me.

That was all he wanted out of the deal. He didn't expect like anything special to be made or whatever. He just wanted to go on some cool dives, which he got to go on, some dives of his life, I got to say. And we cut that film that you saw. We brought it to Tribeca Film Festival, and it blew up, and the Cannes Film Festival called, and I brought it there. And then we decided to just put it out ourselves. And instead of making like four films, of course, the addict, as you say, and me, I'm like, all right, I'm going to do all of them at once.

Right. And editing nine different films. And it's taken me a good year and a half and amazing Academy Award winning composers and rock, paper, scissors, like one of the best editing, just amazing people around me. And it's been a really amazing experience. So the full series is what, like nine hours long or something like that? No, no, no. It's almost two hours. So there's nine films that range between five minutes and ten minutes. Got it. And I had like Eli Roth do the VO on one of them because I was like, I don't want to hear my voice on every single one.

And then like Laird and his daughters and my daughters came on a trip. So the Great White Trip sort of from the eyes of the kids and their dads, you know, me and Laird and Laird talking. So, and there's orcas, like sort of rays and manatees and ocean crocodile, saltwater crocodiles. It's cool. That's super cool. So coming to your Oculus soon. Yes, coming to your Oculus,

coming to every, your Oculus or your HTC, coming to any headset and then coming to your mobile phones and pricing it so that in a way that no one has an excuse. Because most of the VR out there that's priced, in my opinion, is too much. People aren't into paying, but if it's a couple bucks for the whole series. What about the work that you're doing with Andrew specifically though, like taking this footage and using it in a way that's helping people overcome their fears or dealing with their PTSD? Well, I know he's in the process. They're, you know, doing some writing some papers. So I don't know what I'm really allowed to talk about. I know they've had some amazing successes up there

with the reduction in stress, doing breathwork protocol, different things to help people relieve their stress. And what he created was like a VR space where they go in because how do you face a near-death experience? You know what I mean? Like a realistic one. and bring a VR camera while people are shooting at you. Like going out of a cage with a shark is sort of a near death experience in a way that I can sort of film it and control it. But you could see it being used in various ways. Like you could go cave diving or you could just all these,

the claustrophobia. All these kind of things that create fear in people. Yeah. And they're monitoring pupil imagery, sweat lens, like everything going on. So when you're wired up in the lab, in the video, you see you in Andrew's lab, what are they monitoring and what do they figure out? Well, you'd have to ask him because I asked him and they wouldn't tell me because it would affect. He did tell me one thing. So one of the first tests they did is where you put on the headset and you basically are on a high wire in between

buildings or you're a plank, so to speak. And they say, take four steps out, which I do, turn to your right. And then they're like, step, you know, take a step forward. And I'm like, in my mind, I'm in my headset. I'm like, okay, well, this is, you know, this is what it's like to kill yourself. So I'm going to enjoy it. And I jump off, and then I hear them outside of the headphones mumbling, reboot, they're like, okay, we're going to have you do it again. So I did it again. And this time I'm like, well, I'm going to look down this time to see what it's like with the ground coming,

like if you're going to jump off a building to watch it come up at you, which I did. So after that, he said, I can't tell you about all your other results, but I will tell you this. You were the first and only person that's ever done that experience that sort of didn't like tiptoe out. Like you just jumped off. No one does that. And he said, we thought you messed up. So we had you do it again and you did it again, both times. And he just was like- And that means what? That you've worked through your fear response and-

He wouldn't tell me what that means, but it was interesting. I was, when you watch like the documentary Free Solo with Alex Honnold and he's doing the MRI and his, you know, the front part of his brain isn't lighting up. So one of the things, so me and Andrew- I talked to him about that.

I had him on the podcast. We talked all about that. Yeah. I actually just saw Jimmy Chen, like, he's a really good friend of mine. Oh, cool. He's been on the show, too. Yeah. He's the best.

I love Jimmy. You know, me and Alex, I mean, me and Andrew have a trip we're planning on going in two months. You know, we think that they'll allow us because of the scientific work out to Guadalupe because it's closed. Right. Because of COVID because it's closed because of COVID. Everything's closed. But one of the things, you know, we really want to study is when we're out of the cage. So, like, if we take you out of the cage, it's never done it. What's going on your reaction compared to what's going on in my reaction?

What's lighting up? Like, eventually, we'd love to be able to look at our brains while out of the cage and see, you know, what's lighting up and what's not lighting up. Uh, so stuff like that. Um, uh, and, um, you know, one of the things I have been doing is like human guinea pig testing colors, like do sharks see colors? So I had Patagonia, which is a company that I work with, make me different colored wetsuits to see the reactions of the sharks, which sure enough, from the small study that I've done, they definitely are attracted to yellow. Yeah.

Not any other color, but the yellow, they were just like, choo, choo, choo, coming at me. Really? And then I found out Mick Fanning, when he got attacked in Jay Bay, the bottom of his board was yellow. So I'm like, ah. So that's good knowledge to have because you can tell divers and you can tell people that are in shark populated waters avoid yellow. Not that I've seen, but there's those companies that make supposed shark repellent wetsuits that are striped and what have you.

I didn't have – so that's – I'd like to get my hands on one of those to sort of show that it works or doesn't work. My guess is at least with great whites, it's not going to work. That's interesting about yellow. Yeah, I've had some funny – I had a company call me up and say they were making stickers for the bottom of surfboards. This is a true story. And they were like, well, you put on – so it's like two eyeballs and like a scary mouth to make your surfboard look like a monster. And this guy really thought that it would, he literally was dead serious. I want you to go out in Guadalupe and paddle on a surfboard to show that this will scare away.

And I'm like, have you ever seen a great white? And he's like, no. I'm like, yeah, I didn't think so. Why don't you go out on a surfboard and paddle your little stickers on the board? Because I am not going to do that. And I can't even believe that you're asking me to, like, you're insane. So people, there's some ones out there. It always struck me as odd that most wetsuits are black though, because then you just look like a seal.

Look like a seal, right? Yeah. Well, you got to think when you, and I'm sure you've seen those on Shark Weeks or whatever, when they show a seal and a surfer up at the surface, it wouldn't matter what color you went to because you're silhouetted against the light. So you're just a black. You're always going to look black. You're looking like a seal. But sharks are so smart.

We've put cameras and decoys. So in South Africa, we tow fake seals behind the boat to get them to breach on them, to take photos of them and see, et cetera, right? So we've put cameras and literally nine times out of 10, the shark realizes it's fake before and it turns off. I was actually able, and you'll see in the book, to capture the first great white breaching at nighttime, which no one, the scientists, because I was like, does it breach at night? Because I had my lights. Yeah, the strobe doesn't work during the day, right?

Exactly. So you want to go back at night. So I went back at night and we had one and it hit. And I took the photo too quick. I got too excited because all you got to see is the whitewater exploding and it's night and you're in the back of the boat. I'm like, fuck, because I got the head, not the body out. And I put the camera back and they never, never breached twice on a decoy, ever. And I, for whatever reason, put my camera back and like 10 seconds later, the shark hit it again.

And I waited a tenth of a second and then hit it and got the first ever, which ran in the New York Times magazine. It was really cool to be able to show scientists a behavior that had never been captured before. That's the God shot. Yeah, it was a proud moment. So in the book, you have both, right? There's one where you just see the head kind of coming out and then you have the full breach, right? So that was the first one and then, right,

that's the same shark. Yeah, it was a little one, but it was really cool to see. All lit up like that. Crazy. Yeah, it's neat having those. I mean, when I would go down to Guadalupe, I had six assistants holding lights in different places. And historically, you can't talk, right? But I did get an OTS system so I could talk in my assistants because otherwise they're looking over at me. Yeah, how are you coordinating all of this? We try hand signals.

I'm like, and all they're seeing is bubbles and me doing this. It's frustrating. I never yell at my guys when I'm shooting in the studio or whatever. I'm not that guy. A lot of photographers are, I guess. But I don't. But I've never yelled at them more than underwater. Of course, none of them heard it.

It's just me going, bubbles. Yeah, but you're also in a situation where all you can do is set the stage you can't control what transpires on that stage you can't tell them hey you gotta you know i mean when we'd come up i'd be like hey next time would you try to do this and you know but these guys are like they're holding lights and they're seeing short they're not like right at the end of the day they're like oh my god that shark's cool and the light's going down. It's gotta be wild though. Like you just mentioned the photograph of the shark running in the New York Times.

Like when you see your work out in the wild, like your work's everywhere. We didn't even talk about all the studio work that you do. I mean, you've photographed the posters for every blockbuster essentially, at least all the Marvel stuff. Like everywhere you turn, your work is like omnipresent in the world.

Yeah, yeah. I've done a lot of, a lot of, you know, out campaign, a lot of images people have seen that, you know, people have joked or called me like the most famous photographer you've never heard of. Yeah.

You're kind of all shucks about the whole thing, but it's pretty fucking awesome. I learned, I learned a while. I was guilty of having that, like, I want to shoot the cover of Vanity Fair. I want to do this. And I did realize, like, none of that stuff fulfills you. Like, the minute you get that, you're like, okay, what's next? Well, I want to do this. Like, it's never going to be enough. And I remember it was sort of around the same time that like herbert's helmet newton and i think it was irving three master photographers died within a year and i watched the photography world not miss a beat and i remember just going like it really doesn't

matter what pictures like if i was to die today like there's another guy yeah it's just gonna miss on yeah they're gonna like it's it's gonna. And then when my time comes, I'm not going to say, oh, bring me that photo of that Marvel Avengers thing. No, I'm going to want my family and the people I love around me, right? So what are my priorities? And I just sort of stopped. I mean, I do have the ones, like, when Kobe passed, the cover of Time Magazine, I thought that was cool just because he was such an amazing guy. He was a huge Shark fan and he's an icon. And that was an honor.

It was more of an honor. I was humbled at that. Yeah. We should just say for people that are watching or listening who don't know, you're the person who photographed that iconic image of Kobe that ended up on Time Magazine. He was bowing. He was bowing. And that has become the definitive, most iconic photograph of Kobe that in his passing has kind

of resurfaced as, you know, the emblem of who this individual was. Yeah. Yeah. It was, yeah, it was, you know, that's, those are the bittersweet. I mean, Time Magazine cover too. Yeah. But like, there's a part of me that's like, really? Like this is how I'm getting Time Magazine? Because Kobe, like I don't want Kobe to pass to get the cover of Time. At the same time, I know Kobe would want the coolest shot of him on the cover of Time Magazine. You know what I mean? So, you know, it was, it was, I thought that photo, that was the last ad campaign he did for Nike before he retired

as a Laker. So it was like his last shoot. Um, but what, uh, people might not know is that Kobe was a huge shark freak. Like he had a photo, a print in his locker to fire him up. And he, we talked, cause I've shot him quite a few times. Well, you hear about the Mamba, but you don't hear about the sharks. I know. That's why I'm, I'm, I'm giving you a them quite a few times. Well, you hear about the Mamba, but you don't hear about the Sharks. I know. That's why I'm giving you a little back story.

So he really wanted to go see Great Whites, right? And he was like, well, can I take a helicopter out there? Because it's an 18-hour boat trip to Guadalupe. And I've tried over the years because I have some sort of high-profile friends who don't have the time to go do it. So can I get a jet out? Can I take a plane? So, I've looked into all those, and there's like a sea plane. But he's like, can I do a helicopter?

I'm like, no. But then I stopped, and I'm like, well, if there's any way to figure out a helicopter out there, it's you. So, I'm not going to say no, but I don't think you can. Maybe nine months later, he came in. I think it was for Turkish Air. I don't know what it was, but he comes up. Literally, there's 80 people on the set. People are like, hey.

I could see him lasering on me, and he comes right up. He's like, hey, I did it. I did it. And I was like, you got the helicopter? He's like, no, no. I went on the shark trip. I'm like, how did you get there? He's like, I had to take the boat.

I'm like, ah, I knew it. He did it without you, though. Yeah, I know. He did it without you though. Yeah, I know. He did it. Yeah, he did do it without me. Wow. So you spent quite a bit of time with him. Yeah.

I mean, I didn't spend, I mean, I just shot him quite a few times over the years. He was one of my, when I first shot him, I was doing a lot of work with ESPN magazine. And the editor, I gave her my like, I really want to shoot Kobe because I had Lakers season seats for six years. Me and my daughters would go to all the games when they won their championships. And he was on my list. It was him, Muhammad Ali. It was like two others. And I remember when she called, she's like, okay, I'm getting you your, and I was like, no way. And I did my first shoot with him. Then I ended up shooting for the other stuff. But yeah, I just, you know, there's a lot. I feel like most of the higher profile celebrities, actors, and a lot of music, they have a fascination with sharks. People love, guys especially, but there's some females out there too.

Is that like part of the alpha mentality? What is that? Yeah, I think it's that. And they're the apex predator over the oceans. You know what I mean? They're great white sharks. Like, you know, everyone watches Shark Week, I feel like, and you know, people love sharks, love to hate them,

love, you know, it's that fear fascination thing. When you look at that image of Kobe and it, you know, given that it's become so iconic, like to you, what is the, what makes the difference between like a good photograph and a timeless photograph like that? Well, I know that every time I'm shooting, I'm trying, I'm aiming for iconic, you know, I'm aiming for Thomas. I'm aiming to show something or someone in a way that you haven't seen before. That's my goal.

So whenever I'm shooting people, I'm trying to pull out of them also their real, like take the mask off, so to speak, and give me that emotion. Show me who you really are. And I do that in a way that I usually shoot very quickly and I direct so that the person, because in my experience, no one really likes getting their photo taken. It's a very vulnerable, their insecurities come out, right? Like, oh my God, my double chin. Oh, I'm balding. Like when you show anyone 90 photos of themselves, they're not looking at the one and being like, God, I look amazing. Look at that shot. Look how good I look. They're going right to the one that they're like, oh my God, I'm so fat. I need to, you know what're like, oh my God, I'm so fat.

I need to, you know what I mean? Like, well, I don't know if you know what I mean, but that's what happens when you show people. And if 99 of them are good and one's like whatever, they're going to the one. So I try to, you know, I, I, I go for that. And, you know, with the Kobe, obviously it was circumstances and, you know, the position and the shots and what have you. But, you know, it's something I don't look at photography. I don't go down to magazine racks. I don't look online. I don't want to be influenced by anyone else. I really shoot in the moment and go for what I'm going for, you know? But it is Hollywood, right? So it's that trope of like, that's why they're hiring you because they want

your unique perspective, your specific look, but then there's a whole committee of people that, like, I would imagine if you're shooting like a Marvel campaign, they want it to be a very specific way, right? So there's gotta be some kind of tension, creative tension there. No, not, well, yes and no. Like, you know, Marvel, I started with Iron Man 1 from the beginning. So you created the look then. I didn't create the look, but I helped create the look. I played a part in it. And I think they respect that, my experience and my talent. So it's a collaboration. It's me, it's the actors, it's the studio, it's the marketing people. I, you know, I'm one part of the machine. It's definitely by no means me. Um, but I do play a part. Um, and, um, they, they look for,

for my input and that's why I think they come to me because I've never you can approach those like oh it's just another job and go in and do the routine like put the white seamless up, shoot things, do the lights, do the hero shot and I think my clients see that always trying to raise the bar so like I remember on one of the Avengers you know I brought in bands because we were going to do a big

battle scene so instead of having them sort of pose like fight things I had those elastic bands so that they could really get into, you know, their veins and their neck. Cause I want it to feel real. I want it to be a real moment, you know, and when I'm shooting, uh, actors or a person and I want to laugh, uh, you can't be like, Hey, laugh. Cause then they're like, and you it's, there's nothing to resonate. So I will say something to make myself look like an idiot or something to get them to laugh.

Or if someone says something and they laugh, my finger is always on the trigger. So I'm like, bop, bop, bop, bop, bop, and I get that real ha, ha, ha. And when you look at the photo, it resonates through, you know? Yeah. So in shooting these, all the quote unquote, like superheroes, like what is your, what do you think is your strength or your superpower? Because like you said, there's tons of talented photographers out there, but there's a reason why you're the guy who gets selected to shoot all these massive campaigns. Like what is it? And it's, it's gotta be more

than like, well, I, I have a unique, you know, angle on it, or I try to make it real. Like, what is it about you that you're the guy? I think it's a combination of things. I think it's a combination of my ability to light. I have mastered lighting, you know, that's what photography is, is lighting, how you light. And I can light things in a variety of ways.

My relationship with talent and how I can disarm people and get actors to maybe do things that they don't want or like give us the extra time that are willing to do that because I respect them. I respect their time and I respect their opinions, what they're comfortable and not comfortable doing. I never force someone to do something they don't want or try to trick them. So there's that respect level. There's the creativity that I bring to my jobs. And like I've said, I'm always, I guess I have a bit of people pleasing to me, and I'm always trying to raise the bar and I'm trying to make my clients happy. And at the end of the day, when it comes to the big movies, these things are $300 million investment.

They know that I'm going to deliver no matter what happens. And when you've got actors, and I can't tell you how many films, like I remember on a few of the Wolverines or whatever, you know, we had Hugh for eight minutes because they're making a movie, right? And we're like the illegitimate stepchild that like, you know, all right, here, you can have them for 10 minutes. Even though it's the biggest, it's what gets butts in the seats. It's the most forward facing aspect of the whole movie. Man, people go to movies because of the trailer on TV and because of those billboards. And you look up and you go, oh, that looks dope. And you're going to go, or that looks so bad and you're probably not going to see it. An incredibly important part of it, but for some reason does not get the priority that it,

in my opinion, should. And so I, no matter what happens, we'll get those shots. And, you know, I've had Hugh for eight minutes and done three different lighting setups and gotten them everything from the intense portraits to the fighting to the this and that and i think they know that and they're not going to you know it's like do you want to try this new guy right yeah you know and have down a ball you're you have robert be like uh yeah you know so right and then you know i've had that I remember I remember Robert on Iron Man 2 the first Iron Man the suit

was like up to he had like half of his body or whatever right things are not comfortable to act in the real suits and what have you

and on Iron Man 2 we were at the we were at the studio and whatever he's not gonna care if I talk about this studio people are probably I I don't know. They're not listening.

They were like, will you – he won't put the suit on. He won't put the headpiece on, the shoulder piece. He won't do it. We've all asked him. Will you ask him? And I'm like, are you kidding? You want me to go ask him? He said no.

Please, because he likes you. He'll do it. I'm like, oh, my my god so i go over and i'm like robert listen i know i can photoshop your face in but it's not the same it's not the same organic because he's like he literally looked there was like six of them and he's like i'll bleed them and he went like that he's like listen for you i'll do it 10 minutes all right great start this up i'm like no no no no 10 minutes of shooting like i need 10 minutes he's like, listen, for you, I'll do it. 10 minutes. All right, great. Start the stop. I'm like, no, no, no, no. 10 minutes of shooting.

Like, I need 10 minutes. And he's like, yeah, that's fair. That's fair, right? So he sat down, fixed. He's like, all right, start the stopwatch. They started it. I shot 580 frames in 10 minutes, and I got it all. Like, the hand did it all, and that was it.

Iron Man 3 out of black with green dot. Like, he's never put the suit on again and I would never ask him again. Uh-huh. Right, but you had that trust. You'd engendered enough goodwill with a guy like that.

Yeah, no, I have that and I think I have that with the actress. You know, listen, I've been shooting

for 35 years in this town. I've pretty much shot them all. Like, they've either, I've either shot them or, you know, I think they're going to know coming in my pedigree and respect that I know what I'm doing. Right.

But at the end of the day, they want to get in and out. And actors are used to being directed. I think everyone wants direction. Like tell me what to do. And I tell them, you know what I mean? And it's, you know, it's an interesting position when you're a photographer and you have some of the most powerful people on the planet and you're like, you know what I mean? And it's an interesting position when you're a photographer and you have some of the most powerful people on the planet

and you're like, you know, Barack Obama, like, look here, like I need you to write, look, you're telling people what to do. It's a little exhilarating and they're doing what you tell. Yeah, it doesn't matter who they are. You get to be in charge of them.

I am, and when you walk on my set, I am in charge and it starts with me from the stylist, the hair, everyone. And if there's any indecision, if there's any fear, any of that, it's like a virus. Right. So no matter what's happening, I can be in a studio and 12 of my 13 lights blow up and I'll still be fine. I'll be like, cool as a cucumber. Take that one light, bring it over here, get that bounce board.

I'll never show fear because it's just like, what's the solution? They feel secure and safe that you're in control and you know what you're doing. Yeah. And the motto and my motto, and I think it's with life is what's the solution? Not what's the problem. What's the solution? What are we going to do? What do we need to do?

You know, and I think approach that with life too. What is your relationship with creativity like how do you think about that as an energy we talked about earlier that moment you know like when you're meditating when you quiet everything down and that channel because i don't think great ideas come from me i think they're given to me from the universe i think they come down and i truly do believe if you have a good idea, like 10 people are getting that at the same time and it's who's first to implement. I don't feel like I'm some terminally unique that I'm the only one getting ideas, but really-

Did you read Elizabeth Gilbert's book, Big Magic? It's all about that. It's all about the idea that great ideas are out there and it's about honing your antenna. And there's a reason why people kind of have those ideas at the same time. And it's about who's the right receiver for that. Yeah. I started reading Buddha and the Badass, which is really implementing the same type of thing, bending reality and manifesting. He gave me words to things I've been doing my whole life, but I never had a word for it. And there's like a little step process in there about getting the right team around you. Because when you have an idea, which I believe

is really true, and the universe will give you all the things really quickly to get it done if you believe and you're in the right place. And like a bus, you need the right people in the right seats to get things done, especially bigger projects. Right. Which I know I've shared with you a couple. I'm working on a – I'm a founder in a company. We have a new material that looks, acts, feels like plastic but dissolves in water in five to ten minutes. It's a game changer.

Yeah, you showed me some stuff about this. It's a great example of starting a company, starting a project and having the right people around and the right people coming in to then implement it. And then only in the future will I be able to look back and see the dots that connected to get us to where we're going. But you have to be open for those. Anyways, Boot on the Badass is a great book. Yeah. And you're going to solve the plastic problem.

I'm going to. Yeah, I'm going to help because I'll tell you, diving the amount I do, the amount of plastics that are in our ocean is just mind-boggling. And the microplastics, you go look at the beach and you see all those little pieces of plastic, well, that the fish are eating and then we're eating the fish, which means plastic is going into us. And it's 9 million tons enter our ocean every year. It's a nightmare. So to have a solution for single-use plastic that's about to come out. And I think it'll be revolutionary

and it's exciting to be part of it. When you hear 100 million sharks are killed every year, what is going on? Why are they being killed? I mean, you hear about shark fin and all of that, but is it at that scale? 100 million sharks for that? Yeah.

It's been gut-wrenching to look at. There's 2,500, I think, fishing vessels off Ecuador right now. Sorry to say, but they're all from China. You can see them on satellites because of COVID, right? They're not out. People aren't out protecting. And literally, I remember when I was in the Galapagos a year and a half ago, they had captured an illegal fishing vessel that had 10,000 tons, just some obscene amount,

number of dead sharks. They had a dead pregnant whale shark in there. And they go and they just drop net and they just kill everything in its path. And then there's long landing where they're killing everything to get a certain fish, but like they're killing dolphin and turtles, which I don't understand is if you went to any country and you put a line of hooks out in a forest and you killed all the bears and squirrels and raccoons and you killed animals at that level, people would be up in arms, up in arms. But we do it in the ocean.

And when you kill the top predator of a very fragile, the top of the very fragile ecosystem, which the sharks are. They keep the oceans healthy. It's like a domino effect that's going to happen. Yeah, it makes the whole ecosystem unstable. Seven of eight people on our planet live off the ocean. That's where they get their substance. And when you start having no fish, when you go to Africa, they they keep having to go farther and farther to try to find a fish. Like they may catch one shark in a month where they used to catch one every day.

Yeah, I mean, isn't that part of why the Somali pirate thing started to happen? Because the fishing dried up. Right. Well, in these countries, certain countries will go in and say, we'll build you a power plant. We want all the fishing rights, right? Like you'll give them a power plant and then they just pillage the whole ocean until there's nothing left. They throw dynamite out onto the reefs to just blow up and kill all the fish. Right.

It's insane the way we treat our planet. Yeah. You know, I do believe, though, that Mother, I've just seen Mother Nature. I've seen the power that, you know, and I think we see it now more and more with the fires and they're like, if we don't solve it, mother nature will for us, you know, and swat us off her back like fleas off a dog, you know. On that tip, you're like really good friends with Joaquin Phoenix, right? Who's really, you know, at the forefront of getting the animal welfare message out to the mainstream. Yeah. So where did that kind of come together?

How did that, you go way back with him, right? We do. He is a really good friend. I will say he, I'm going to keep it really brief because I respect his privacy, which is why we're really good friends. His privacy, which is why we're really good friends. He's been an amazing inspiration to me, the way he leads his life, the roles he takes with his work, with his creative work, the roles he takes with our planet and how he lives his life. He lives by example. And he's been an amazing example to me and an amazing friend.

One of just an amazing, I keep saying the word amazing but just a really big heart I love him and I'll leave it at that yeah have you been to any of the cow vigils I have yeah you should shoot those I did I wanted to make a VR do you know Sean Monson I do yeah

he just actually texted me on the way here I went down with him and a couple people but I was thinking about making a VR of it, you know, like so you could see. I mean, it's gut-wrenching. Right. Seeing those poor cows and people spraying the water. Yeah, it's – in fact, I just got a text from the guy who did Game Changers. You see that? Oh, James.

Yeah. Uh-huh. It's cool to see movies like that take an impact. You know, I think that's what I made this series for is in our generation. Like I've written off our generation. It's this next one, you know, these kids, they're the ones we've got too. And I am excited. I don't know if it's just an L.A. thing.

I live in L.A., so I see young people in L.A. I don't know if this is how they are in Kentucky or Ohio, but a lot of them are vegan. They're really pissed off at the climate that they're inheriting, and they're sort of like activists. I feel like they're pissed. I mean, you have that. It's like one or the other. They're either really lazy and don't want to do shit and expect, you know, they want to be a millionaire by the time they're 21,

but not really do anything to get the millionaire. And then at the flip side, you see these activists, these young, you know, it's like Greta. Like you see these kids and they're like, hey, F you, man. You're really giving us a planet that's this messed up? Which boggles my mind. And, you know, I go like,

how does the owner of Shell or mobile, they have to have kids and grandkids. Like, don't you care about our planet? Like- I think there's such a level of denial and a distribution of responsibility in those massive organizations that allows them to lay their head on the pillow at night

and feel like they're not as culpable as they really are. And I think the accumulation of that has created this next generation who are so hip to like what's going on and so committed to change and so open to these new ideas. And that really gives me hope. I mean, our generation, it's like trying to get people to change their minds,

especially right now about anything. Good luck with that, right? But- Yeah, it's like trying to get people to change their minds, especially right now about anything. Good luck with that, right? Yeah. It's like the sharks. People are scared of sharks from Jaws and stuff. I think our movies and TV and we have promoted this like money makes you happy. Like you have to have a lot of money and success. And when you look at the facts that like you have a baseline of 50% happiness and no happiness comes from any type of financial, 40% of happiness comes from giving.

So when you give is where you get your joy and happiness from. It's not making a bunch of money. And you get the same effect of if I handed you $25,000, what you would feel, right? $25,000, what you would feel, right? $25,000 cash. And if you also do this and you smile, the same feeling. Like you get the same neuro, yeah, from smiling. Straight from Huberman's mouth? Straight from scientific.

Not Huberman, but I did hear from scientific. So it's like giving. And that's been the law. I have my peers ask me, how do you work so much? You work more than anyone I know. And I look at them, every single person that asks me, they say the same thing, because I give. I'm a UN global advocate. I go to Africa and all over the – and document refugees, and then I try to help with the sharks.

I constantly – and it's a universal law. It's a law. If you give, it comes back. Like it does, and it comes back tenfold. Yeah. People just, but they're afraid, you know, so I don't need the next, you know. Right, yeah, I mean, I've experienced that in my life a thousand times over and I've seen it happen

in so many other people's lives. And it's something that, you know, we hear and we can intellectually kind of understand, but on some level we feel like it doesn't really apply to us. Like I can imagine somebody listening to this saying, that's all great because you're so successful. But, you know, if I got that billboard or if I got that job, then, you know, it would be different for me. And it's just not the case. There is a spiritual law that takes place. And actually you can use it selfishly. Like if you're desiring to advance your life

in a certain way, just start giving more, even if it's not coming from a place of heart purity, and it's coming from a place of like personal desire to advance your life, it doesn't matter. It still will work. It still totally works. I don't know why. Neither do I, but I love, and it's sort of like Greg owns Science Show. One of the most

giving people I've ever met. That's why I'm bringing him up as an example. When the Kobe image, I knew people wanted, they're going to want that image, a print of that image. And as an artist, I make gallery, I make additions. I sell shark prints, right? And as an artist, you know, I make gallery, I make additions. I sell shark prints, right? So the first thing I did was I made that Kobe print available, like 8x10, a sort of smaller size for a very affordable, like $30, $40. I called Greg. Well, he had called me and we both talked.

And I was like, I want to give 100% of it away. And he's like, great. Cool. I'm like, yes. Because most business, well, what about 50%? You know, people are like, I want to give it all away, which we did. And we gave to this amazing organization called Genesis. And she actually just called and was like, I cannot tell you how much that money, like, you know, just opened up a ton of doors. But, you know, look at his business.

You know, I just love meeting people that they use that in their life. And you get to see the fruits of that. The largesse of their own life, you know, expands, you know, to a degree that's exponential in proportion to the amount of giving. Yeah. And you see it time and time again. And I think that print, you could buy it on the Sideshow website right now. You can buy it on Sideshow. And then I made an edition of 24 much larger fine art prints that I'm selling at a site called Plastic Gallery that's on Artsy as well.

And we are also giving to Genesis and those are color and black and white. And then there's like 16 other images, I think, or 17, but all edition of 24. And once the 24 are sold, I'll never make that Kobe bow image again. Yeah, that's great, man. That's it. Yeah. That's great, man.

That's great. All right. Well, we can wrap this up. What else? You have any other projects that are going on right now? Like new books, you're working on the horse book. I'm doing a horse book for Tashin.

You know, I'm getting ready to release the VR series. I have my other business with the material that I'm doing. And then I am working on an app, which we are going to put out that's sort of augmented reality, which I've heard about for four years and never have been impressed with any of it. And then I saw something that just blew me away. So we have the developers working on that. That's all you're going to say about that? That's all I'm going to say about that. Wait, what? Like, I don't even know what

you're talking about, but all right. Yeah, I think it'll blow your mind too. Okay, man. Final thing, advice to the young creative out there, the young photographer who's just starting out or the young activist who's seeking to make an impact in the world. What do you say to that person? I mean, the first thing I'd say is what I sort of write in every book, which is there is nothing to fear, but fear itself.

So do not let fear control your life. You're either in fear or you're in faith. I wanted to. And I think if you just try having some faith, trust the universe, follow your dreams, you'll start to see results. But you just got to have that trust. And the second thing is the young creatives like, please, please, please follow your dream. Do your creative. Don't chase the money because I in 35 years have never once woken up and been like, oh, I got to go to work today. Not once. I get paid

and made a living doing something I love to do. I wake up every day. I'm like, oh, I'm so excited to go create. That's a, it's just a gift. Yeah. It's such a gift. And it's, you know, we only get one life. Well, I don't know, it might get a bunch, but this is the only life I have. And I definitely don't want to be 780 going like, oh, I wish I always wanted to go here or do this. I always wanted to take pictures. Do it.

Life's so short. It's precious. You have today, forget about all your yesterdays. What are you going to do today? That's it. Good talking to you, man. Good talking to you, man. Thank you, man. I appreciate it.

That was powerful. If you're digging on Michael, you're easy to find on the internet, Instagram. Keep sharing those ice bath stories. At Michael Muller seven. Michael Muller, what's the seven about? Cause someone, you know, it's, yeah, what is that? Like someone had Michael Muller, but they don't post,

there's like one, two posts, they took my name. Yeah. The ice, I love the, man, from traveling, the ice and heat changed my, like when I get off a plane after 16 hours, it resets my body, all the inflammation out. It's phenomenal. So right from ice up to my neck,

two to four minutes into the sauna and then back into the ice, back into the sauna. Darren was telling me you always show up at the workout with like the big cupping marks on your back. Yeah. Yeah. I get a lot of cupping done. I do a lot of, I mean, my body, I'm like an old beaten up gladiator.

So to keep this 50 year old machine working, it requires a lot of like Thai massage with them walking on me or, you know, and then a lot of like, just, um, it's almost sadistic what they do to me, but my body's like Kevlar. It's like knotted Kevlar. Yeah. But yeah, cupping's great. Except when they take the cup and go like that. Yeah. All right. Well, come back and talk to me again when the, when the VR thing is out in the world, we can come back and talk about that a little bit more. For sure. When the VR is out, when Cam's out, yeah, we'll definitely come back for sure. Anytime, this was great.

All right, thank you, brother. Thank you, everyone. Peace, plants. Holy shit, man. Wasn't that unbelievable? Isn't Michael Muller incredible? Probably one of the most badass people I've ever met. So delighted to have him on the show today.

Hope you guys enjoyed that. If you dig what he's about, give him a follow on the socials at MichaelMuller7 on Instagram and at MichaelMuller77 on Twitter. Also check out his website, MullerPhoto.com for some insanely gorgeous photography that will absolutely blow your mind.

As always, check the show notes on the episode page at richroll.com. We got tons of links to immerse yourself in the life experience of Michael and all the amazing work that he has done and is doing. We have another Roll On AMA edition of the podcast coming up soon. If you'd like your question considered and answered on the show, leave me a voicemail at 424-235-4626. If you'd like to support the work we do here on the show, subscribe, rate, and comment on it on Apple Podcasts, on YouTube, and on Spotify. Hitting those subscribe buttons is super important. If you haven't done that yet, please do me a favor and do that.

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to produce today's show. Jason Camiolo for audio engineering, production show notes and interstitial music. Blake Curtis for videoing and editing today's program for YouTube. Jessica Miranda for graphics. Davey Greenberg for portraits. DK David Kahn for advertiser relationships.

And theme music, as always, by Tyler Pyatt, Trapper Pyatt, and Harry Mathis. Appreciate you guys. I love you. How good was that today? That was so good. Setting the bar high. See you back here soon with another great episode.

Until then, face your fears, move towards them. Don't be afraid. Inch towards it, leap towards it, and see what happens. Peace, plants. Namaste. Thank you. Thank you.