The Rich Roll Podcast - Miguel McKelvey Is Reimagining The Workplace — How Design Fuels Human Connection

Episode Date: July 8, 2019

The tectonic plates of the workplace landscape are rapidly shifting. Gone are the days of multi-decade corporate allegiance, replaced with project-based careers. The rapid rise of the freelance economy. And a labor core increasingly distributed across the globe. What are the economic and social implications of this trend? How can the traditional office be re-imagined to fit this escalating movement? And what role can architecture and design play to deepen community and foster personal happiness? There is no better steward to explore these important questions than this week's guest, Miguel McKelvey. A talented, multi-disciplinary designer and entrepreneur, Miguel is the Co-Founder of WeWork — the ubiquitous, communal co-working space company — where he currently serves as the Chief Culture Officer, directing construction, architecture and web design for the business. Raised on a commune in Oregon, Miguel earned a Bachelor of Architecture degree from the University of Oregon, where he played on the Oregon Ducks basketball team for two years. Prior to WeWork, Miguel created the design framework and led the national retail roll-out for 170 American Apparel stores. Subsequently, he was involved in the early-stage development of several companies, including Green Desk, Barre3, Versation, and English, Baby! Because Miguel shares responsibility for creating and leading one of the world's most successful companies, one might predictably suspect this is a conversation about business. It is not. To be sure, we track his entrepreneurial journey. But this man's success has less to do with commerce and more to do with purpose. A deep commitment to community. And an intentional life devoted to fostering meaningful human connection. Over the course of two and a half hours, we explore how Miguel's unusual upbringing in a five-mother commune and his experience playing NCAA Division I basketball created the ‘Communitarian' philosophy that would later inform the cultural foundation for WeWork. We discuss Miguel's love of architecture and the important role design plays in modeling our professional and personal lives. How growing up in the town that produced Nike inspired an entrepreneurial drive to create an aspirational brand. And what his career at American Apparel taught him about engaging consumer culture at scale. But more than anything, this is a conversation with a remarkably humble man driven by gratitude and purpose to create new and original habitats that fuel a more connected world — and ultimately more fulfilling lives. The visually inclined can watch our entire conversation on YouTube here: bit.ly/miguelmckelvey452 (please subscribe!)  Enjoy! Rich

If you find the thing you would do without being paid, and then you apply that to a business problem, which is that workspace suck, people are disconnected, everyone's lonely, that was a perfect connection point for me. So that's what I would encourage people to do is look for really to understand, like, where does their core, the depth of their their being what do they love to do what would they do if they're not getting paid and then how does that apply to an actual business problem a social problem something that they feel really passionate about being a part of changing I think once you find that then it's like it doesn't really matter the scale of the business or the level of success or you know like you become a millionaire or all that other shit doesn't really matter anymore. So what's interesting when it comes to the scale is that you can look at the business overall and there's something interesting and impressive and you value it on a large scale. It's like, wow, that's achieving something. But to me in the day-to-day, what I really care about is connecting with people.

That's Miguel McKelvey, and this is The Rich Roll Podcast. The Rich Roll Podcast. Hey, people. How how you guys doing? What's happening? What's shaking? My name is Rich Roll. I'm your host. This is my podcast.

Welcome to it. Before we get into anything, I have a super exciting announcement I've been dying to make for a while. One of my big goals for 2019 was to create a live event experience, a show that I could ultimately eventually take on the road and execute it on the highest level. And for months, we've been working behind the scenes to make this dream a reality. And I'm just thrilled to finally let you know that it's now happening. Our first live event will be Friday, September 27th at the Wilshire Ebell Theater in Los Angeles. It's an absolutely gorgeous venue. It seats 1,100 people.

It's insane. And the show will entail a live podcast, of course, with a special guest or two to be announced at a later date. We're working on it. But in addition to that, also so much more. The idea here is that I want to craft an immersive, entertaining experience that extends beyond just a podcast and is specifically tailored to a live audience. We are using this initial show, again, September 27th, as kind of a proof of concept. In other words, in order to satisfy venue booking agents across the United States and internationally with respect to this tour idea that we have, we need to fill the house. I'm confident we will indeed do that.

And towards that end, tickets just went on sale. So here's the deal. For the initial 48 hours between now, when you're listening to this, and July 9 at midnight Pacific Standard Time, we are giving first dibs on premium tickets, on all tickets to all of my Patreon supporters. So if you're part of that community, you will receive a message with a special code that will allow you to purchase the best seats during this two-day window. It's the least that I could do

for all the support that all of you Patreon people out there have shown to us. But if you're not a Patreon supporter, but you want the opportunity to purchase early premium tickets, you can still join now and we will get you that access. In any event, after the 48-hour window, we will then open up tickets to the general public, to everybody. To get tickets, visit my website, richroll.com, click on the appearances menu tab, and there you will find the link. Again, I'm super excited about this. It's going to be next level, so check it out and I will see you there. My guest today is Miguel McKelvey. Miguel is the co-founder of WeWork, the ubiquitous communal co-working space company, where he currently serves as the chief creative officer directing construction, architecture, and web design for the business. Miguel is an architect by trade. And prior to WeWork, he created the design framework and led the national retail rollout for 170 American apparel stores and was involved in the early stage development of several companies, including Green Desk, Bar 3, Versation, and English Baby.

Miguel is an amazing person. This one is chock-a-block with insights on everything from entrepreneurship to community building to the importance of design to living a purpose-driven life and basically reimagining how we live. But first. We're brought to you today by recovery.com. I've been in recovery for a long time. It's not hyperbolic to say that I owe everything good in my life to sobriety. And it all began with treatment and experience that I had that quite literally saved my life. And in the many years since, I've in turn helped many suffering addicts and their loved ones find treatment. And with that, I know all too well just how confusing and how overwhelming and how challenging it can be to find the right place and the right level of

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wonderful, and recovery.com is your partner in starting that journey. When you or a loved one need help, go to recovery.com and take the first step towards recovery. To find the best treatment option for you or a loved one, again, go to recovery.com. Okay, Miguel McKelvey. Because Miguel is behind one of the most successful companies in the world, this guy is literally a billionaire, at least on paper. You might suppose, you might think that this conversation centers around business. It does not. Sure, we talk about his entrepreneurial journey, what he has learned along his path. But in my opinion, Miguel's crazy success has much less to do with commerce than it does with connection and being very intentional about making his life an

expression of his personal purpose. We talk about his unusual upbringing in a five-mother commune in Oregon, how that may have influenced him as a communitarian, this sort of community-oriented path and philosophy that he's all about. We talk about his love for architecture and how that informs his sensibility, how he thinks about modeling our work and personal lives, how Nike's business model and culture influenced him, his career at American Apparel, and the professional and personal habits that he envisions to fuel a more connected world and ultimately more fulfilling lives.

Miguel is a great guy. He is remarkably grounded and just super cool to hang out with. So let's do it. This is me and Miguel McKelvey. Are we ready to go? I'm ready. Miguel. I have curiosity here with all these items.

Well, let's get into it. What do you want to know? Well, I want to know if there's meaning behind them or they're just like you know it's all relatively intentional i mean a lot of the one of the things when you run a podcast you get all the books in the mail ahead of time and i interview a lot of authors so i get a lot of cool books so a lot of these are from guests or they're just things that i'm interested in. Right. Yeah, Scott. You know Scott, right? You do stuff with Charity Water. I have not had David Lynch on, but I would like to.

And have you read Ego is the Enemy by Ryan Holiday? No. I was wondering whether you might have met him along the way because Ryan was the head of marketing for American Apparel. Oh, really? Back in the day. And actually, he texted me this morning about something else. And I said, hey, Miguel's coming over to do the podcast.

You guys must have met at some point. He was very young at the time. And he said, I've been racking my brain trying to remember whether we met. We must have at some point. But he just didn't remember. Yeah. I mean, I would say the same way. Right.

May have, but it was wild times. Well, let's get into the wild times, man. It's been quite a journey. I think when I think about WeWork and everything that you've accomplished and your mission, it seems like every once in a while, maybe just a couple of times in a generation,

there's a really great idea that happens to coincide with a shift in culture and then like some fairy dusting of timing and a lot of hard work and persistence, of course, that kind of creates the foundation for something so seismically impacting as what you have created with WeWork. You know what I mean? Because I think about the way people work today is not the way people work in general like when I was a kid, right? And so this idea that you had, you weren't the first person to come up with the idea of co-working, that existed, but you did it at scale and in a way that really leveraged this change in our relationship to the workplace and work in general with the kind of emergence of this freelance culture and how the internet has allowed people to do what they do remotely even when they work for large companies.

companies. Yeah. And it's the, the reason why I responded to that, um, I guess feeling a little bit overwhelmed is that it still feels like we're so in it. Like we're in that moment where the change is still happening and evolving. And it feels, um, I guess to, still rough in that way. I don't know how to describe that. But it feels still like we're in the journey so much that when you think of it as a shift, that almost seems like a conclusion or a change that's perceptible. I think we're still right in the heart of that change. We're still so close to what's going on that to hear it described that way, I mean, obviously it feels great and I appreciate it. But I also feel like we have so much more to do. Yeah.

But just for perspective, I mean, this thing only started in 2008, which might seem like a lifetime ago to you, but really just wasn't that long ago. Yeah. And I think whereas in the early days it was like, cool idea. Now it's like, wow. You know, you walk into, you go, arriving in Jakarta, seeing the WeWork sign on a big tower, you know, walking in and feeling this incredible warmth and vibe of people feeling happy and connected to each other, that's when it's surreal, clicks into real very quickly, and it feels really good. What I hear in that is the idea of community, which seems to be kind of the lifeblood for you. I mean, that theme permeates throughout your life.

And really, you know, in my imagination, at least, is the life force that kind of ignites, you know, all of this for you. Yes, you're scaling. You're in all these cities. You know, this is a huge organization that you're now at the top of. But at its core, this is about trying to connect people. For sure. And it's interesting because that is still my deepest interest. So what's interesting when it comes to the scale is that you can look at the business overall and there's something interesting and impressive and you value it on a large scale. It's like, wow, that's

achieving something. But to me in the day-to-day, what I really care about is connecting with people. And so, for example, I mean, we came to LA this week and what I did this morning was what we call leader circle, which was, I think, about 15 of us sitting in a circle for two hours telling stories about our lives, about where we come from, about how we connect our past to who we are now. And that's the stuff that I love. I mean, there was tears. There were laughs. There was inspiration. And that's the stuff that I'm like, this is why I do it. Those are the things that I feel really fulfilled by. And that, I don't think, I hope that never

goes away. I mean, that's the part that just feels so good. And so that's the part that I hunger to actually do that really well. And we talk about it all the time. Like, how do we not waste our time when we bring people together? Because if you have an opportunity to connect, don't waste it. Yeah. How can you be intentional and structure these interactions in a way that will allow people to deepen their relationship to each other? Yeah. And in that way, one thing that's really interesting, one of the struggles that we have, and we've designed WeWork for that connection. When we're outside of the WeWork setting and we, like, for example, the team booked a restaurant for a dinner tomorrow night. And now we know that most restaurants suck for connecting, for really connecting. I mean, maybe if you're two people and you can really sit face to face, but if you're six and you're on the end of the

table or you're eight, you're definitely not connected as a group. It's just not possible. And if you're an introvert and you're at the end of the table, you sit there twiddling your thumbs and full of anxiety. And it could be three hours of that, right? And that's like torture, I think, if you're that person. So what is the we eat plan for addressing that? Well, I think the first thing is for us to actually be, like you said, purposeful about those decisions. So we're actually looking for a new reservation because, of course, when I come to town, people are like, oh, let's take Miguel to the cool restaurant. I don't care about the cool restaurant at all. I want to go to the place that actually is quiet, that's conducive to conversation, where we can actually feel like we're sharing our time together in a way that's valuable.

And so that's the design process that we're working on. So we're actually in the process today of looking for a different place to hold that. Because we know. We've failed a lot. Like we've gone and I've actually left those, some of the dinners being like angry that we wasted those three hours because I didn't feel connected. And so I aspire every time to make that time valuable.

I was at a friend's birthday party a couple of weeks ago. It was a small dinner party, 20 people, all at one long table. And in an effort to address that very issue, that problem, the host, the guy whose birthday it was, said, here's what we're going to do. Everyone's going to, we're going to, we're going to nominate one person to be kind of the moderator. And we're all going to go around, we're going to introduce ourselves, and we're going to talk about like what's top of mind right now for each of us or what we're working on or like something that, you know, we feel strongly about.

And then we'll kind of collate all of these ideas and figure out what's most interesting to talk about as a group. And that way it integrated everybody into the conversation. So there was no marginalized person at the end of the table. And then it just went on its own way. But it was actually kind of amazing. And I did leave that experience feeling like I had a meaningful exchange with every single person at that dinner. So it is like that. How can you bring an intentionality to this rather than just sit down like, hey, how was your day? What are you doing? Right. And how often do you have that

experience where you happen to speak to the person who was sitting next to you, but then no one else, or maybe one or two other people. Or you're like, you're feeling bad because you're ignoring that person because you're talking to them. Right, exactly. Yeah. And I think that there's, that intentionality is important on multiple levels, but I do think that it can be awkward. And so I think for me, that's been something that, you know, I try not to take for granted that I'm in a position where I can say things and do things because of my whatever position or success or whatever it might be where people won't just blow me off. Yeah, like to some extent, like I can actually be a convener because of that. And I don't think, and so I don't take that for granted.

I believe that like we've tried stuff where like send an email in advance giving people some instructions about how they should show up to something. I think some people would be like, fuck you. Like what are you telling me how I'm supposed to act at a party or whatever? It's weird. I'm supposed to act at a party or whatever. It's weird. But I think people have, at least in my evolving network, people are buying into that. And I think that's what, like, we want to prove that through some of that design, we can make those experiences valuable and then people will hunger for them and we'll continue to be able to evolve that. And I don't want to, I mean, I'm not taking credit. I should, you know, Priya Parker's book, The Art of Gathering,

was one of the things that really switched that on for me because I had it in mind, but I hadn't like really got into like tactics of that stuff yet. And then in reading her book, I was like, so many points where I was like, you know, took notes and I'm like, I'm doing that tomorrow. You know, I'm executing on that stuff. And so I think that ladders up to something much bigger, hopefully eventually. But right now I think that's, like we do have the macro of like we're creating these spaces where we believe they

are conducive to connection and openness. And we promote that idea in a big way. And now I think we're really getting into, not just me, but other members of our team getting into that. Like, what are the practices that are truly connective? And how can we then start to, you know, systematize those things, make them scalable, allow other people to be able to facilitate once we learn the tools. And so, but then that's really exciting to me.

Because when you think about our scale, it's like one thing to be like, wow, it's cool. We have so many locations. Then if you really believe that those locations are amazing at connecting people, they're the best places in the world for that to happen, then it goes to a whole nother place. Right. Well, let's go back to the beginning because the seeds of this communitarian sensibility go back to day one for you, right? Communitarian. Is that a word?

I don't know. I like it though. If you just made it up, it's a good one. Communitarian. Communitarian, community oriented. This runs in your blood. I mean, you had a very unorthodox childhood growing up on this commune run by strong women. So tell me about this. commune run by strong women. So tell me about this. Yeah, it's weird because commune is like the most simple word to describe the idea of communal living. But I think there's also some people associate commune with like cult and other stuff, ideological stuff that perhaps gets weird. It was very purposeful, meaning the women in my family made the choice to live collectively, share responsibility for different parts of their lives that were both replacing some of the things that normally happen in biological family, but then also going to another level in terms of like, how do they get by, you know? So when they wanted to like live off the land at the time or be more disconnected from society, it's like, well, some people had to have jobs, you know, to like sometimes need money for stuff, but it was very purposeful. And they had ideals about how we as kids would be raised. They were

very comfortable, all of them with having kids without the fathers being in the picture. And so there were five women who—and there were others peripheral, but there were five core women. These are like friends of your mom? Yeah. How does this even come together? Well, it's weird. I've actually, over the years, I keep asking that. You know, just recently I've been like recording my mom telling the story, so I hope I'm telling

them right. And I don't want to steal their stories because I think they should be the ones who tell them. But my mom and literally her freshman roommate at Boulder became friends. And then they, in the New Mexico, Colorado scene, connected with other women. And I became this crew who were living together and in a very, again, like an idealistic notion, like they were actually, I mean, in the way they would describe it, they were like, the hippies were fighting back. They were like, we're done.

We're out. You know, they were like that, you know, were like extreme um in the sense that they were like we've lost connection to what's going on in the world right now we have to find something different and so they really were trying to live completely outside of reliance on on right you know and a lot of the words that we have now like freegins and communitarians you know they were they were um they were that and you know, so there's amazing stories of like them literally getting their food from the dumpster in the back of a grocery store.

Right. In an idealistic way, not because they were, I mean, they were poor, but they weren't poor, meaning like they were doing it for purpose. They were just trying to completely opt out of anything commerce-oriented. Exactly. And there's a bunch of influencing factors that affected their migration.

But when they got from New Mexico to Eugene, where I grew up, they did have to reenter society more formally because of us kids who are all in close in age. So, you know, similar band of ages. But we all, they wanted us to go to school. And so, you know, we went to public school and they had jobs for a period of time. You know, my mom was like a latchkey teacher after school. I don't know what she got paid. You know, we had food stamps. Was it stigmatizing for you, like to go to public school and have everybody else doing the traditional thing?

Yeah. I mean, I did grow up in Eugene, I would say, was a, there was a hippie vibe there that was accepted. You know, like there were kids at school who had weird names. I mean, Miguel is not a weird name if you're Hispanic, but Miguel is a weird name for like a white kid. And there were other kids named, you know, Wind and, you know, Morning Star and Evening Star and That Summer, those kinds of vibes. So it wasn't so weird, but definitely there were times like I didn't grow up with my father and, you know, there were times where I aspired to be normal. So I would say, someone would say, oh, what is your mom doing? I'd be like, I don't know for sure exactly like how you would define that.

She's like, I mean, now I'd say, oh, she's a community activist. She's on, you know, public access TV. You know, she's doing all kinds of stuff that's cool now when I look back at it. But as a kid trying to define their parents' job, it was very weird. And then my father was in the picture so I would say oh you know my father is police officer on he's undercover you know you know I made up stories to try to put him in a context that made me feel more normal but at the same time I will say there was weirdness, but we were also, you know, really like connected, you know, people hanging out, felt creative, felt just good. And I knew, so I knew I was a part of something bigger, whether I understood it or not, you

know, and I was totally safe. Like I would like, you know, just fall asleep on the couch at probably age five or six at someone's house. I don't even know where I am, but I just felt totally comfortable there because I just knew we were a community. We were like a connected group of people. Well, the word commune is such a loaded term that has a lot of baggage associated with it. was happening, as far as I can tell, is really the way that humans evolved to live in tight-knit groups of people, not in, you know, insulated family units, but as, you know, and not as large as villages, but in, you know, groups probably the size of what you were raised in. And in many

respects, that feels right. And I know as a parent of four kids, and we live way out in the country, there is a sense of not feeling as connected as I have been to people in the past. And there's a yearning for that. That's why I was telling you before the podcast, we've gone through phases where there's been nine or ten people living here. We've kind of run our own little loose- loose knit version of that. And it's nice. And when you come here, it's like, you can imagine if you had like five more of these little containers. Yeah. That's the idea eventually. You know what I mean? And, and there's a comfort to that, that feels very human and, and the way that it should be, you know? And I feel like, you know,

our culture is just not rigged to promote that, but would we not be better off if there was more of that going on? And so really, you know, my question is like, how do you think about, I mean, you've kind of already answered it a little bit, but like that experience of growing up in a communitarian, you know, environment, like how does that inform how you think about, I mean, you've kind of already answered it a little bit, but like that experience of growing up in a communitarian, you know, environment, like how does that inform how you

think about the communities that you're trying to create and cultivate and foster and grow in these spaces that, you know, you now create? I mean, there's, to me, it's like, you know, you can always see things 2020 in retrospect, but it's almost like it was perfectly designed to put you in this position to be able to recreate the best parts of what that childhood experience taught you in the workplace and now in the living space. Yeah. And it's like you said, reflection makes things make sense, you know? And I think that at the time when I was a kid, I definitely had some rebellion to the communal hippie vibe, you know? Like I wanted to eat McDonald's and not, you know, co-op tempeh, you know? And so I had this like, I did in some way rebel in the sense of business and i also grew up in eugene where nike started and i think that's a really important part of my history

in terms of understanding like yeah i was in this communal environment but i also saw this energy that came from something very commercial and sport and design focused. And so later on that all adds up to, you know, a business that is based in community, but also is about brand. It's about, you know, some level of coolness and understanding how you need that ability to message something and brand something correctly in order to like get people to to be a part and it hasn't and the aspirational ethos of it yeah exactly and i think that's a really important um part to say like there are things that are truly good in the world that are community focused part of the reason that we've been able to scale

and bring it to like a mass of people has been because we've also been really good at the business side. And that's what I think you don't think of as like, oh, the hippy dippy people who are like all about, you know, saunas and like, you know, yoga. Yeah. Then it's like, they don't make it, you know, and there are other brands that obviously have similar influences, but it's like they don't make it you know and there are other brands that

obviously have similar influences but it's like that's kind of the thing is like how do you get that to be more of a mainstream thing and i think that is where you said it was also good timing because a lot of that stuff has emerged more you know and it's not just us i think there are a lot of other more mainstream places where this kind of stuff is part of the culture. I mean, your existence and podcast, obviously, as an example, it's like, you know, people are more interested in trying to get in touch with this stuff. Yeah, you, those sensibilities are important, but if you're allergic to spreadsheets, it's not going to work, right? Like, so how do you meld and merge the best of those

worlds to like alchemize all of that yeah and that's part of i mean for me personally like that was the part that i felt um the community i took in a way for granted like i knew i didn't like the office environment like i was sure that was wrong you know like i knew that that wasn't a good place for human beings on a day-to-day basis. That wasn't even a question. But the response wasn't that like, I wasn't, you know, I was actually against some of using the word community in the early days because I didn't want to claim something that we didn't actually have. And to me, a community is a really complex thing of a lot of different factors. How does it really feel like a community? It's not like you just say,

you, you, you, community. Yeah, it's not something that you can control and manipulate. You can create an environment that's conducive to it, but then there's a letting go, right? For sure. And so that was part of the thing. And Adam and I had some early day arguments about that because he would be like, why can't we call it a community or why can't we use some of the imagery related to community in the early marketing materials and stuff? And I was like, we really have to do it before we talk about it. And we have to prove that it's possible before we start, you know, because people would see that as fake, I think, if you try to. So, we didn't talk a lot in the beginning. I mean, we talked to like the landlords and the people we needed from a business perspective, but we didn't like, we weren't telling that story that much in the early days.

All right. So, you're in this interesting living environment. You're six foot eight, right? How tall were you when you were like 14 and 15? I was always bigger. I'm like scaled, always been bigger. Like, so, you know, in all the school photos, like my head was above everyone else. Nike's down the road.

You're interested in sports. So what, you start playing basketball at school like how does you know how do you start becoming an athlete it's interesting environment my son who now is nine and is a great basketball player it's really interesting to compare because his skill level you know i just played for fun when i was a kid and i played every sport baseball football basketball um not every sport that's a narrow range of sports, but they're the seasonal, natural things that you can be a part of as a kid.

And basketball, I didn't really become serious about until the summer before eighth grade. And to be honest, I was a really overweight kid. I ate a lot of McDonald's, literally. I would say that as a joke, but McDonald's and Taco Bell were my main sources of- mom's like working hard to ban glyphosate you're sneaking off the the golden arches yeah but that's you know that was a great thing about my mom is that as much as she was like so on top of all the right stuff to do she also wasn't forcing it on me she like made it an option

but she wasn't going to be like you have to to eat this disgusting stuff. Um, which to me at the time was gross. Like I was really like tofu is the worst, you know? Um, but she let me do it. You know, she took me through the drive-through because that's what, what I wanted. And you know, who, who knows that all philosophical stuff we could, um, debate a lot. And now that I'm a parent. Like, what should I do? I'm not sure. I do. Obviously, organic is best, but you know that for sure. But anyway, sports definitely became like a part of my identity when I was in like high school and that, you know, being a basketball player like meant something. And that, you know, being a basketball player like meant something.

And I do think that the learnings of like, you know, team and really being willing to like both stand up and stand out, you know, and be like recognized. But then also be like totally part of a part of a unit like and i think i learned those lessons in a way that um that i think sports are one of the few places where you can right um but i wasn't like a superstar player or anything i was just like a good player um but you ended up playing at university of oregon right yeah yeah i did which i mean now looking back on it like again that's like an accomplishment which sounds cool And I'm really proud of my time there. And, you know, I really enjoyed it. But I also was a super good student in architecture school. And I love that, you know, just as much. So it was very balanced. But didn't you go, did you go to Colorado College first? Yeah. So I went to Colorado College for two years. And there's a great moment that I had,

which I always got to shout out this guy, Carl Reed, who was a sculpture professor at Colorado College. And I took his class. Colorado College, I don't know if you know the format there, but I want to promote it. It's like one class at a time for a block for a month. And so whatever you're taking, like total focus, like zeroed in on one subject matter. taking like total focus, like zeroed in on one subject matter. So one of my favorite classes, there was African American folklore, where you literally read like a book a day for a month, which was intense, but amazing.

But anyway, so I go into sculpture class and I'm making like whatever came to me. And this professor said, and I don't know what I'm doing at all. I'm like, I like art. It's way better than economics or math or any other stuff. And it's also an escape, like art class for a month, you know, pretty awesome. No, you know. Yeah. So that's all you have to do. Yeah, that's it. It's like go to studio and that's it. Make stuff, you know, all the time. And it was, it was great. And he says to me, he goes, you goes, hey, your sculpture is really architectural. And I'm like, what do you mean? He's like, yeah, well, if you look at it, it looks like you're sort of solving spatial problems and structural problems.

And I was like, wow, that's cool. He goes, you should think about that for graduate school. And by chance, and he didn't know where I was from at the time, he said, University of Oregon is a great program. You should think about it. So that planted a seed where I was like, oh, whoa like I don't know what I'm doing with my life I don't have like a major I don't know what my future holds I was really actually unhappy at Colorado College not for reasons that apply to the school but more with the basketball team and stuff and so that just clicked I was like yeah oh wow and then I immediately from that moment forward

I like went to the library and like got an architecture book, you know. I got a Corbusier book. I got a Frank Gehry book. Yeah. And Corbusier and Gehry are like so different in terms of their approach to architecture. But amazing in the impact that they had on the profession and on, and so by luck. I mean, literally, I got those books by luck. And so I just completely was all in on that.

And I spent the whole summer, that following summer, just literally like check out book, study it, memorize everything in the book, and then return and get another one. On your own. On my own, completely on my own. I was part of the curriculum. And then you just, and then you transfer. Yeah, and so then I transferred. But I had to apply still to the architecture school. So I had actually like a year out of, not out of school, but mostly out of school. And that, that was like a tough thing for like, for a high achieving person. And, you know, someone who had,

not that I was like in love with school, but I definitely was like good grades and all that. So to have like a year out where I was kind of idle was tough, but I think that I got really to know myself a lot better during that time because, um, because I had to be, I wasn't in the format anymore. You know, like when you're in school, it's like, you just show up in the format and it's like, yeah, papers do, or the projects do. If you show up in that construct and you, you know, you're successful, it's easy. But then once you're freed of that, it's like, whoa do or the projects do if you show up in that construct and you know you're successful it's easy but then once you're freed of that it's like whoa yeah like you have to make your own decisions about what time you kind of created your own curriculum to fill that time in the in-between yeah yeah and i was working at a restaurant you know bus boy right um and just like you know trying to fill myself up to prepare because I wanted to be the best. Like, to be honest, like, I was like, I want to be the best.

Like, I want to be the best architecture student. Who were your guys? I mean, you started with Corbusier and Geary. Yeah. and inspiration to me primarily because of his early days explorations where he was really going against, you know, a lot of things in terms of the diagram. And he would say that he still like uses a diagram and stuff, but a lot of stuff is just wild, you know? And a lot of the professors that were at University of Oregon at the time didn't appreciate him, like didn't like him. They thought he was just arbitrary and making all these weird shapes for no reason.

And so I like being kind of counterculture in that way. So for that reason, I appreciate him and I still do. The other is that when he did Bilbao, the Guggenheim Museum there, I think he took architecture to a whole new place where the reason for that and the reason why Bilbao invested in that project was because they wanted to define themselves as a culture. They were like this industrial place, you know, they weren't known as like having a good, you know, like whatever, they weren't a culture center, you know. And so they said with architecture, we can reform,

you know, and create this almost like culture heritage, I think, and define themselves as a region in that whole region, which has obviously great food. And that to me was like, whoa, this actually became a branding exercise. And this, again, sounds weird when you transfer it in the commercial, but it really is. It's like that building in Bilbao was a commercial draw. It was a tourist attraction. It was a tourist attraction. It was a redefinition of a place. It was a like, we completely understand something different. You can't think about Bilbao without thinking about that building.

They're inextricably linked. And that structure really defines how we think about urban landscapes and experience them. I mean, it is. That is the brand of that city. Yeah. So to me, I was like, whoa, that's a whole different thing than I had ever experienced before. And I have appreciation for other, you know, I mean, there's cool things about Frank Lloyd Wright. There's cool things about Louis Kahn. There's really cool things about modern, you know, some of the contemporary architects, Herzog and de Morin, you know, there's people doing amazing stuff. But I think a lot of the stuff in our world now stems from

Bilbao. Like the whole Starcatech notion, the whole like meaning of buildings, I think changed from that. And so for me, the connection to that was I want to do something that goes beyond just the influence, just the goodness of good design, but actually something that moves culture forward in some bigger way. Well, I'm a huge fan and somebody who appreciates great architecture and somebody who's experienced the impact of great architecture up close and personal like we live in an architectural home very blessed to you know be in this space we were talking about it a little bit before the podcast. And I can't imagine what my life would have been like living somewhere else because this structure has been like this crucible for everything creative that my wife and I have been able to accomplish. environment in which we raised our kids and the memories and just the daily experience of being in a structure that's oriented around like how we come together as a family unit and how we experience nature and how we engage with our creative selves like it's a very underestimated thing in our

culture we just think you build a building or you build a house. But when there's mindfulness and intention that goes into how a structure is created in the sense that it's oriented around promoting those, you know, a certain set of values, it shapes how you live, every aspect of how you live. every aspect of how you live. Yeah. Well, I get, I mean, I'm just so excited to hear you say that because what I get extremely frustrated by seeing things that are done for reasons other than that, you know, and there are buildings built for houses. For showing off or for ego. Yeah. And I mean, there's so many, there's just any number of stupid expressions of other things other than having like good motivations for design. And there's dumb stuff that's just like, oh, there's a house with a great view of nature and they didn't even put a window in the right place. So there's some of that stuff that's just like, how?

Like you have this amazing vista of like the ocean and, you know, or, you know, there's people who keep their curtains closed all the time to that view. And I'm like, how, but, but then there's like the next level, then there's like actually designing for intent, actually designing with purpose and trying to understand, you know, the flow of life. And there's this building that actually I've always loved, which you have something similar here. I'm curious how it affects you. But there's a Tadao Ando building, a very small house in Tokyo, where he designed the living spaces in the front and the bedrooms in the back.

And there's a courtyard and a bridge between the two. And his idea was, you know, waking up or going to bed, experience nature in between. And whether it's cold, whether it's rainy, whether it's hot, you're just going to know because every day you have to, you know, make that transition. And it's a very simple idea, but one that seems so beautiful and elegant to be like, you can't avoid it.

Like you've got to, you know, connect to it. And I think that intention, I think, is something that's missing in who knows what, 90% of stuff that's built. Yeah, to go to our master bedroom, you have to go outside. Oh, you do? I wonder.

Yeah, back inside and outside. And how does that, is it like, how often is it? People are like, why would you design a house? Like, that must be a mistake. I'm like, no, that inside and outside. And how does that, is it like, how often is it? Well, people are like, why would you design a house that, like, that must be a mistake. I'm like, no, that was very intentional, you know? And I love it. I think it's fantastic. And look, we don't live in Minnesota, so it's no big deal.

Right, right. Is there ever a time where you're like, it's pouring rain or something and you're annoyed? Or is it like, not that that would be bad. Well, I mean, this is, you know, this house is at its best in the summer for sure. You know, when it's raining a lot, it can be a little bit of an annoyance, but it's not that that would be bad. Well, I mean, this house is at its best in the summer for sure. You know, when it's raining a lot, it can be a little bit of an annoyance,

but it's not that big of a deal, you know? And yeah, we purposely set off the containers like at a distance from the house to make you engage with the outside a little bit and create a little separation. And we have the communal, you know, the communal aspect of the house is separated from the private quarters and you have to go outside again know, the communal aspect of the house is separated from the private quarters

and you have to go outside again to go in between both of those. And the whole idea is to bring nature into the experience. And it's a modern house, but it's not austere in the sense of what people think of modernism in a traditional sense because it has the rustic elements of the nature and those doors slide open

and it brings that natural experience into your experience of life. Yeah. I've only obviously been here for a short time, but when you first drive up, you have the immediate response of, that's a modern house. And you can imagine that there's some crispness to it. But then when you come right in, it's like the materiality and there's a real warmth on the inside, which feels really nice. Like it feels immediately comfortable, which is there are some houses designed like this that don't feel that way. Where you're like, oh, wait, am I allowed to touch anything? Your house feels very much like, and the dogs help. The dogs help.

You feel welcome right away. And the dogs help. The dogs help. You feel welcome right away. This theory, I don't know if I've ever said this out loud, but it's really cool to have interesting people that inspire me like yourself come here to do the podcast. We've had so many cool people come here over the years. And even before I started the podcast,

we would always have interesting people here. And I feel like every person that comes leaves an energetic residue here that like enhances like the spiritual vortex quality of like our living space. I love that. I feel it. That's a good aspiration. I definitely feel it.

That's a new way of thinking about it, which I think is, that's cool. I mean, it helps that like you also have like the objects for some of the people. Like, there's history. If people get antsy, they want to play with something. Yeah. So, cool. So, all right. You're at Oregon.

You're studying architecture. You're playing hoops. Were you guys good? You know, we were okay. We never made the NCAA. I was just there for two years. We didn't make the NCAA tournament. We made the NIT and lost in the first round. But we got to go to hawaii you know for the first round

so that was cool yeah but we weren't awesome i mean oregon since then what the other part that's funny they've had years where they were like football and basketball well this year we're in the sweet 16 in basketball yeah amazing accomplishment um we've had 20 wins in a row in basketball for years since coach altman is there he's awesome but football has also had an incredible run um that's been i think changed like changed the game actually they sped up um chip kelly who came to oregon i don't know if you pay attention to college football this dude came into oregon and completely changed the game because of the speed at which they played and a lot of it actually had to do with fitness and, you know, more attention to, to wellness and overall presence. And, and, and,

and so I think he was great. Unfortunately he left and then went to the NFL and has done other stuff. And, but regardless, I think that that that, and the relationship with Nike, where they made all these super cool uniforms and equipment, that also changed sport. Another branding exercise. My first year at Oregon, we had champion uniforms. It was pre-Nike contract. That's crazy. Which is so weird because it's like Nike has been tied, but you see it's like business can either work or not.

You know, there wasn't a relationship at that time. And then my second year was the first year of like the Nike all sports contract concept. And so we got like some pretty basic Nike stuff. And then following years, it was just like all the coolest Nike gear was all Oregon, you know, super cool, you know, colors. And you could get any shoes you want and all that. So I missed on that, but I'm planning to get back in on that somehow. Maybe this podcast will help. Do you stay connected to the basketball team?

A little bit. I mean, not specifically. I watch, but it's tough time. I would love to go to more games. But if they make it to the Final Four this year, then I want to go. Well, now that your son's a player. Yeah, that's a big part of it. He really starts to appreciate college basketball just now.

He's a big NBA fan, but he's just starting to get into it. You go to the Knicks. That's an exercise in self-abuse. The Knicks are tough. He's become a 50-50 Nets Knicks fan, so the Nets are great this year. Not great, but they're good. They're a great team to watch. And they they're fun and they're in a good direction. So we'll see about the Knicks. All right. So you then go to Japan. Right. So what was that about?

Well, it's interesting because I intended to move to New York City. Like that was my dream. You know, I wanted to move to New York. I'm not sure why exactly, but I just knew that was my dream. You know, I wanted to move to New York. I'm not sure why exactly, but I just knew that was the stage that I wanted to be on. That's where you birthed a big life. Yeah, that was something. Like that was a place to get to and I had the plan, saved up some money. But my friend is living in Tokyo. One of my best childhood friends is living there.

And I think, well, I graduated from school. I should at least go visit him in Tokyo. And that would be a waste to not go there while he's there. So I go to visit him. And I buy like a two-week train ticket to go travel around Japan and stuff. And I had studied Japanese architecture. So I wanted to see the sites and all that. I get there.

And literally within the first couple of days, we hatched the idea to start this website to like connect people to connect people learning English as a second language to Americans who could help them understand American culture because no one knew what scrubs meant right that's the famous thing it's so funny like to launch a business based on a term like scrubs. But it was like, no scrubs was the TLC song that was super popular. And people would ask that. What's a scrub? And it's like, that takes a lot of nuance to be able to explain what that is.

But we thought there was business in there. It turned out to be effectively, looking back on it, like a social network for people who are learning English as a second language. They didn't have that term back then, you know, community websites existed. But anyway, so we started that and it was very small, but it actually got some traction enough to give us the idea of like, wow, we can start a real company with this. And so we went on that journey of like starting a company and raising some funding and being a startup, tech startup. And in Portland, we moved back from

Japan to Portland and it became a great little business. It didn't like explode, you know, it didn't have the like huge growth that, but it became like a profitable business. And, you know, one that actually my friend continued to operate for 14, 15 years before it sold. But you just had this pull to go to New York in the back of your mind? Every year. I just had to like ripcord it out of there? Yeah. I mean, every year I was like, is this my last year? And I think I was there for four years before I left. And I was almost, you know, five years actually. And then I was almost 30 and I was like, I got a, you know, 30 was like the deadline. Yeah. And you haven't even started an architecture career yet.

Yeah. And I also felt like I was, to be honest, like I always said, I'm never going to be that. First of all, I said, I never be the guy, never be the guy who goes to university of Oregon. Cause that's my hometown and that's lame. And I do that. And I'd be like, I'm never going to be one of those people who just like moved to Portland after school because that's lame too. And I was like that guy a hundred percent. And, but so I told myself I'm going to be out before I'm 30. And so I made it to New York the month before my 30th birthday. Yeah. And it's kind of a cool story too. Cause you were trying to get a job at these architecture firms while you were still in Portland. Oh yeah. Yeah. Well, it's funny now to look back on it.

Cause now I feel like, oh, I'm accomplished in the world and stuff. But back then, I'm like, I was literally nobody. Like, to the extent of in the architecture world, like, I was a really good student. Zero experience. But then I'm out five years, and I'm literally nothing. Like, my resume doesn't have anything applicable. So, I'm like, I'm not even, you know, I'm not. So, applying for jobs, it's like, I'm like, you know, I'm like a business leader sort of in Portland.

People know me a little bit. I've been in the newspaper. Then I'm trying to get a job at an architecture firm, and it's like the lowest of the low I can't even get. So finally, luckily, this little firm, Jordan Parnass, who hired me, hired me $10 an hour. And I'll take a chance on you, I think, because he just needed someone who would be like a drafts person. Yeah. And I think part of that also, you know, to be honest, there's in the architecture profession, especially at the time, there are a lot of amazingly talented designers who go to school in the U S and they come out and the English skills are not good, but they want to work at firms and they're incredibly talented, way more talented than I've ever been.

But they're missing – they're not great communicators yet. And so for me, coming in and being able to do the role at a very low level but actually being able to communicate really effectively as I was as a business leader gave me a different kind of position. And so when it came to the American Apparel projects, which we were focused on, I had a different presence there than people who were just great designers. I just showed up differently. Right. Because you were able to communicate with these guys at a higher level than just some young kid right out of school. Yeah. And also someone who like had the appreciation for design, but also new business, you know, and new. So American Apparel, when I got there was in the earliest stages of their retail development. So and, you know, there was some cool whatever you call it, culture behind them.

Yeah. I mean, people forget like at that moment, it was a big deal. Like they were those billboards were, you know, insanely provocative. There was just tons of, you know, news about it. You know, Ryan talks about it all the time. And then you have Dove, who's just like this insane character that you probably had to deal with from time to time. Yeah. But even more than that, they also were trying to do, they were bringing manufacturing back to the United States. They were trying to pay people

a good wage. They were like giving English classes and massages on the job. You know, they were trying to compensate people fairly. So there was a good, like, foundation to that from a sort of ethical perspective. It's, you know, it's weird that Dove had those two sides of being, like, really caring, but then also being so outlandish in a way. But, yeah, it felt good. Like, it felt like a good thing to be a part of at the time. So you're at this tiny two or three architect firm, to be a part of at the time.

So you're at this tiny two or three architect firm, and then this contract just lands in the lap of you guys to build the first American apparel store. And that blossoms into essentially building like a lot of them, right? All of them? Not all. So it was a little bit split because they had the West Coast team

and we did a lot of the East Plus International. So we were a part of a growth path that went from early handful of stores to at some points, you know, maybe 40 to 50 concurrent projects happening around the U.S. I mean, that escalation was really fast. Yeah. I mean, one of the fastest retail rollouts. I had to be a pressure cooker. You know, it's interesting. Like Dove is such a cool character because of the things that he cared about.

You know, he really cared about lighting, for example. Like he really cared about lights and the color of lights and stuff. So it was just like, you know, some things he cared about was schedule and time and stuff. But there are some moments I have with him where he's like, what the fuck are these lights? Get these all out of here. And literally it's like everyone, all hands on deck, you have to like go unscrew every light bulb and change it to a different bulb, like on demand, just because there were things, you know, that he really, like he was in the details, you know, of some things like that. And, and I like appreciated that. Like

there were times when I really thought he was an asshole, to be honest. But I also really thought he was doing something good. And I think that was okay to me. I felt like it was an okay trade-off, at least in my experience. Other people I can't speak for and who experience probably other things. But for me, being yelled at, screamed at, get this done, move faster, do it cheaper. I took that as like, I'm going to learn from this every moment rather than be like, oh, this guy's an asshole. It sucks. I'm going to be like, this is a great opportunity to learn from this, to be under this pressure. Yeah. And if you can get through that,

then you're weatherproofed for basically anything. I would say two experiences in my life, one working with Dove, the other, I worked in Alaska in a fish processing plant for 16 hours a day. I was like, those two experiences, it doesn't really get, like you've kind of had it all, like the monotony of endless salmon coming off the conveyor belt and the like super intensity of someone screaming at you to like do something that's totally unreasonable outlandish. I kind of like have always drawn on those things as like, I can handle anything. Yeah. And I would have to think that being around Dove, like there's a, he's a complicated figure, but there's an audacity to his vision. Like he was shooting for the stars, right? Like the scope of what he was trying to do

was gigantic. And in certain respects, he was successful in accomplishing that, at least in the short term. So did that end up informing like the big vision that you held for WeWork? I don't think consciously, but I think it definitely was inside of me in terms of the way that I internalize like business and vision and like, you know, and really what was possible through force of will. Cause I'm not that kind of person. Like I'm not a person who would like scream or yell or like, you know, fight for something. Like it's just not in me. I'm a much more reserved person. And so i think it informed my relationship with adam in an important way um because i learned things about myself like i was able to exist with dove not that i had that much interaction with him but i could like

pick up the phone and hear him yell at me and be okay not personalize it right just i was resilient in that like okay fine I got yelled at. I'm not going to go into a hole or into a shell. I'm going to just keep on moving forward no matter what. And I think that that's an important thing to realize what my capabilities were in that contract. But I also knew I wasn't him. I wasn't the person who could drive people like that. I was really laid back.

I'm like an Oregon dude. Right. Like you're a chill dude with the design chops and the attention to detail. But then Adam has like this charisma and this like relentless persistence, right. That makes for a great combination. Yeah. And a kind of drive that was way different than mine in terms of like, Kind of drive that was way different than mine in terms of like just nonstop energy. You know, that like willing to just like every day be at like max, you know. And that's something that I give him so much credit for because he's still that way. Like he's still, you know, literally can just, you know, he's nonstop. And just, he, you know, he's nonstop.

Like in some cases it's like you need him at a seven rather than a 10 because he can relate better to like normal people at a seven. You know, and he knows that he's developed his own self-awareness. Yeah. In the early days it might be like all 10 all the time. Some people are like, whoa, like that's too much. Yeah, but that's how you ended up with those early leases, right? Yeah. I mean, and that's what, I mean, again, going back to like, how do you, how are we successful early on? Amazing formula of Adam being able to push and convince and really through force of personality, get people to do stuff that they didn't want to do.

want to do. And then me to be able to back that up like immediately, like really to be able to turn that around and like make something credible really fast so that it seems like we're nobody to someone. And then literally we're someone, you know, the next day. He can spin the yarn and then you have to fulfill on the promise. Yeah, exactly. And that's, and that's another thing that, which I had no, I know I've never told him to like slow down. I've never told him not to make a promise or anything. Like I've never said, whoa, whoa, whoa, what are you doing? I might have been thinking in my head, like, dude, why are you saying that? You're way ahead of yourself here.

Why are you promising that we'll do that? But I didn't, but I don't say that because I knew at least, especially in those early days, and now it's obviously a way larger team. But in the early days, it was my job to back that up. Yeah. You know, and obviously he's a part of that as well, but I'm just saying the formula is like, he's going to push us and I'm going to figure out how to fulfill, you know, that, that space that he would create. And, um, and it was, I think it's a, it was a really powerful, um, formula. Like it really

was, however it happened, it was special. Well, I want to get to how it happened. So you're building all these stores, these retail outlets for American Apparel. Like why not just ride that out and stay there and be this successful architect? Yeah. I mean, there's something there in terms of like, you know, how many times can you do the same thing? And certainly with American Apparel, many times can you do the same thing? And certainly with American Apparel, we did a lot of the same thing.

And for me, I mean, I really look for the challenge, the opportunity to grow. And again, I probably wouldn't have used those words then, but it's the choices I made reflect the fact that I'm like always looking for the next way to- When the growth curve starts to plateau, you start looking around. And I get bored super fast. Like, as soon as I figure something out, I love teaching myself stuff.

But once I learned it, I'm like, okay, that was cool. But now I need something else. And so I think with American Apparel, I just hit the end. I was like, I can't do another one, you know. And it wasn't changing, really. Like, it was just the same. The foreseeable future looked the same. And so I did a few kind of projects that were outside of American apparel.

And at that point I just needed a different scene. And so, but at the time where we were was a cool community. That firm was in a building in Brooklyn in Dumbo that was like made up of like cool, small companies. And like, you know, it, the vibe was great. Like in terms of neighborhood is amazing. There's so much cool stuff happening there. And it's really gotten like even better. You know what I mean? You can complain about whatever real estate prices, that's always the, you know, places like cool when it's rough and then it gets better and then it gets expensive and all that. But it's a cool energy there. And so I convinced Adam to move into that same building. How did you meet Adam? So Gil was my friend at work. He was an Israeli guy and very similar to me, like very chill dude.

And so we became friends and we're sitting next to each other at the office. And, you know, I don't know that many people. I'm still relatively new to New York. And he says, hey, what are you doing this weekend? I'm like, I don't know. They come over to our apartment. We're like hanging out. And so I like walk into this building, you know, it's on Broadway and like we're street

in Manhattan. And I mean, remember it clearly because like we came on and like, I forget what floor, maybe we're on the elevator, go up a floor or two and doors open and Adam comes on. And Adam is like, you know, I'm a tall dude. I'm six foot eight. He's six foot four or whatever, six, five, something. And he's no shirt on shorts, no shoes. And like, just beaming energy, just like, you know, like he's like a buzz.

And then he's like actually literally buzzing and just talking non-stop and i don't even know i can't remember a word he's saying but i just know he's talking to everyone on the elevator and i you know a new york elevator is usually not filled with conversation yeah you know especially amongst people who don't know each other and this is his apartment building so he knows people who live there and he's he and his sister i think have like tried to build community like they've actually been living in the building for a while. So they tried to like get people to know each other and they talk to everyone and everything, but I don't know this, you know, I don't know the history of their existence. So to me, I'm like, what the

fuck is going on? This is so weird. And so the, the key moment of like my like, whoa, was that we're all on the elevator. I don't elevator now there's four or five of us and he's talking to someone and that person walks off the elevator and he holds the door and just continues the conversation as they're like walking down the hall and i remember just standing there going like where there's other people in the elevator yes like. Like the self-confidence and the poise that that requires. Yeah. Like just not, like I've never, like it seems so small, but yet it's so big from a human perspective to be like, like that is an audacious thing to do because it's just not done. You know, it's like the kind of thing, it's like you're breaking all social norms in that situation.

You know what I mean? And that, I certainly don't do that kind of stuff. I'm like way more like, oh, I'm quiet. I care about everyone. I'm like, I have like the Japanese like ideals of keeping everything calm and, you know. So I remember that clearly because that whole day turned into an experience of like us hanging out and, you know, feeling a lot of trepidation and discomfort, but then knowing that I needed that or that I was interested in it. And that was really the thing. I mean, I think if you go to like, what was I searching for in New York?

I wanted things that were foreign to me, things that made me feel uncomfortable, things that were hard. I wasn't looking for an easy life. I was looking for the things that would be not Portland, not Eugene. Not to interrupt you, but what's the genesis of that? Where does that come from, that drive, that energy? It's a good question. Always had a feeling that I could be a part of something different. And I know that just sounds weird, but it's like I've always foreseen myself doing things in a way that everyone else around me wasn't doing them. So if you look at going back to architecture school, for example, it doesn't sound crazy now to say that I love Frank Gehry, but in my entire class, as well as

almost the whole school at the time, there was like one other kid who even like really knew who he was, you know? And that was like my like all in, you know, love of the, of architecture was based on that. So, you know, when I did my first projects, my first design looked nothing like all the other kids. And I was willing to stand in front of that and present it comfortably for some reason. Like that was just, I knew that was me. Like I knew I just wouldn't be the same as everyone else. And I don't know, what's weird about that is it goes counter to my actual physical presence, which has always been, again, being bigger than normal. And especially as a kid, when I was fat, I was always trying to receive. I was always trying to be like in the background. Like

I always wanted no one to notice me. And I spent a lot of time at other people's houses because, you know, I didn't have boys as friends. And so I was at my friends' houses a lot, my male friends. And, you know, I would get criticized for, like, eating too much. And I'm like a big fat kid. Of course, you know, why are you having three slices of pizza? You know, like that kind of stuff happened to me. So I think that I often tried to like disappear in those scenarios. And yet for some reason, when I got to this other place, I just developed this comfort with always being the outlier,

always just trying to do something different. And I'm not sure. I don't know why exactly. It just switched at some time. And I think that it came from just an unwillingness to like, as soon as people got jobs and bought houses and cars and TVs, And I was just like that, whoa, like I'll never be that, that guy. Like I'll never, I mean, I obviously now have some of those things, but like, you know, I just, I don't know. Right. Just didn't do it the same way. I couldn't follow

the same path. It just, I just couldn't. Right. And then you collide with this shirtless dynamo. And you're like, this guy's my ticket to continue my path to being this iconoclast. Again, I don't know if it was like, I don't know when that realization happened. Obviously, that day I was just like, something's going on there that's different. And over time, I think the bond that we built was when he moved into the building and then we were both there. And we were both very hard workers in the sense that we're putting in the extra hours and stuff. We spent a lot of time just walking around the neighborhood and just talking about stuff and trying to like feel each other out, I think, you know. And realizing that we had like real differences, but somehow we both developed an appreciation for each other.

And, you know, it's hard to say why. Like I don't know why there was in some way like some kind of attraction or magnetism that happened there. What do you think that he saw in you? You know, I don't know for sure. But what I would think is that he didn't have up to that point a lot of stability in his life. He had a lot of people in his life that were very, you know, like family and other conditions that, you know, weren't consistent, that weren't calm. You know, if he was on this cycle of... You could ground him. Yeah. I probably had some kind of consistent energy, you know, and I think when he would search me out sometimes, you know, maybe that's why.

I mean, maybe it's like he wanted to connect to some of that more consistency. And I hope that, you know, I hope that that was like, I mean, again, we haven't talked about it that much, but I do hope that that was like was what I felt it we don't we haven't talked about it that much but i do hope that that was like was what i felt it was you know which was a good i would imagine you're you're you're you're seeing in each other things that you don't have or that you aspire to have or that you need in your life right so this is like perfectly complementary yin and yang thing yeah and it didn't really have purpose at all that's the other thing too is it wasn't like it started out with like hey we're gonna do business together it wasn't like that it was just something else it was like you know whether it was friendship or whether it was

just we're both sharing an energy with each other that we needed um not clear you know it wasn't like there was a specific reason for us being together and spending that time together. But it was something that we both just, we needed. So he moves into your office building and he's doing his entrepreneurial thing with like baby clothes or something like that. Right? Yeah. So when does the idea like, hey, let's do something together kind of enter the picture? Well, so we started talking about some different projects that were like, you know, at the time of the like residential explosion around the world, but also in Manhattan,

there was a ton of people. It's kind of like the dot-com era where it's like, well, everybody's developing real estate, you know? And so we looked at some like residential projects andcom era where it's like, well, everybody's developing real estate. And so we looked at some residential projects and we had that in mind. Like, hey, we could do something, this spot, that spot. But again, it wasn't formal. It wasn't like we had really had a partnership or anything. It was just like these different projects seemed interesting. And what really, I mean, he had done in school, when he was in school, he did a project that was related to community housing and this idea that you could create something more connective. And he had been exposed to this co-working model that someone else was doing in New York.

I hadn't really ever seen co-working before. I saw the environments in Brooklyn where there was a lot of these small companies working together, but I didn't know formally what this was. And so he said to me one day, like, hey, we could do a co-working space. Like he looked at the economics of this building and they were charging a very low rent and basically no services, you know, just like. In Dumbo. Yeah, in Dumbo. Here's the landlord of the building we're in. It's like, Hey, here's this space. You can have it, take it or leave it. You know, not very good marketing or sales, um, not good customer service. So, um, he had the idea of like, Hey, we can make this kind of like this serviced office model that he

had seen before. And, um, so I went and went and he was trying to convince the landlord that we could do this. But the landlord was like, you have a baby clothing company. I don't even know who this other guy is. But they just didn't care. They're like doing fine. They have like a good business.

They're renting out space. So it's like, it's not, they were, their space was in demand, even though they're charging a low price for it. They didn't need us for anything. So Adam really did a good job of like continually going back and at the same time i was hatching some ideas of of what could it be if we actually did this like if we did a like shared office and so i went and saw um a couple of the things that were called that at the time and they were horrible in my uh my design view i'm like these places suck

at the time where they just open floor plans with long tables no actually the opposite the places that the big mistake and i and i forget the name i'm it's escaping me now there was a company that was emerging in new york who was doing something um that was like co-working in shared office and to me they made a really uh fatal mistake which is that they put a lot of their money into their newest, coolest location. And it was a long, skinny building with windows only on the ends. And then they built these custom partitions, which were kind of like modern cubicle. And they were all black.

And they were solid. And so you come into this place. It's all dark. they actually had like club they were in the club scene so they had like club music playing it was super dark and they have black partitions that absorb all the light and the windows are only you know far and i went into that place and i was like i wouldn't spend five minutes in here yeah let alone what i was looking for which was like this is should be Like, you should feel so good when you walk into this place. Like, that was the whole point.

So, when I saw that, I was like, okay, we can do something way, way, way better than this. And so, that started to come into my head of like, what are we, what would we do if we got the chance? do if we got the chance and by you know coincidence adam finally you know gets the landlord to like say okay here's a building what would you do with it and that was like the hinge point because i think when we finally got the opportunity we and we hadn't really formalized anything but we got the chance to turn that into you know a really quick business model brand which was not we work that was green dust before right but green dust was oriented towards environmental responsibility really quick business model brand, which was not WeWork. That was GreenDesk before. But GreenDesk was oriented towards environmental responsibility. And turning that around really quickly, I think, gave us that initial credibility. Like, okay, you were a nobody yesterday, and now you're somebody.

Right. So Adam just pesters this guy enough until he finally relents. And then you guys are suddenly in the position of like, all right, I guess we're going to do this, right? And like bootstrapping this thing literally overnight to try to make it happen. I mean, how did you even have, was it a whole building? Well, it started as just one floor. So the beautiful little building in Dumbo that they had.

How did you even finance that? Well, so luckily, and this is part of the, you know, again, the being in the right place at the right time was that these owners of the property um they had this building was super cool beautiful windows you know timber brick and timber you know kind of the ideal like um it was old like coffee warehouse you know and loft yeah. And they say, you know, what would you do with it? Well, we come back with like the design ideas looks really cool. Who's going to pay for it. And we made, you know, we made a partnership with them and they paid for it and we designed it,

built it, run it. They paid for the build out. So it became 50, 50 from that. So, you know, in partnership with the owners of the building. Yeah. And so then from there, we were very successful. I mean, literally, like, we put tape down on the floor, showing these are the spaces, and we had renderings of what it's going to look like. And we started selling it, and people loved it right off the bat.

And so we knew we were on to something from the first floor, built it out, filled up, another floor, another floor, another floor. And, I mean, we're doing much better. I mean, so even their return on, you know, their 50% was way more than they're getting on their normal rent. So they could see this is something cool. They like it. They'll continue to build it out as we went. So we did that whole building and then we started doing floors in that other original building that we had been in.

And so it was clear that it was something. building that we had been in and so it was clear that it was something but the real hinge point in terms of adam and i was that we won i forget if the building was full maybe we had mostly filled it up but we're like we're gonna have like a party for the first time and um we bring everyone together and like i literally think like we looked on the internet for like networking techniques or whatever and there was this like speed networking on the internet for like networking techniques or whatever. And there was this like speed networking thing where it's like, you know, you make two lines and then you each, you talk to each person for like 30 seconds and then you shift. And it sounds like so cheesy and we didn't know what we were doing, but like that spawned a lot of people then more organically and casually interacting that evening. people then more organically and casually interacting that evening. And then the next day,

literally just that elevator ride felt different. And then the whole workspace felt different because before everyone was kind of in their own office, even though it was glass, they had familiarity, but they weren't really connecting on the level that we noticed they were after that night. And that really shifted something where we then felt like, whoa, this is what it's all about. Like seeing the people who need each other so much in this context, like small business people, entrepreneurs, freelancers, people who are trying to start something new, what they really need is that connection. They need the opportunity to have someone else who's in the same boat because your family doesn't. You've experienced it. When you're working hard, sometimes you've got to get away from your family. You've got to get out. And so you leave your apartment. You're on your own.

You're working really hard. No one gets it. Why are you doing this? Why did you quit your job? All these other stories that come with that adventure. And what you really need is a community of people that are supportive in that construct. And so that was from that moment, we're like, okay, Green Desk was wrong. It's something new. We got to sort of start over. Right. So, well, a couple of things in that. I mean, first, just the idea that you had to, okay, we're going to have a party and we're going to try to get these people together speaks to, you know, that, you know, core value of community that that existed at the inception. So I presume Adam shared that, you know, that vision and that value. I mean, did he, he didn't grow up in a commune, but he's Israeli, right?

Like, did he live in a kibbutz? Yeah, yeah. Did he have, like, a similar kind of experience that gave him that same interest? Yeah, so, I mean, he had experience in a kibbutz, but I also think he had the, like, being a part of a community in New York as well, you know, of just, like, you got to depend on people. You know, you get somewhere new. Yeah. of just like, you got to depend on people. You know, you get somewhere new. You're out in a new city. Who are you going to rely on finding people that like you can actually count on

and building a group of people that, you know, you can spend time with. And he's a great, he loves like hospitality. He loves bringing people together. He loves being a host. I mean, it's something that he takes great pride in. And he actually, you know, when he does it privately, he works super hard at like bringing people together and making it a great experience. And so he has that motivation of really like he wants

those experiences to be deeper. You know, he doesn't want you to just like, you don't show up at the party because it's just the cool place to be you show up because you're actually getting something from it and um he cares about that and he he did from the start and so it was like that combination of like i wanted to make the space where this is like persistent like we're going to make the design these spaces where that connection is possible any moment and he was much more of like the peak moments. Like that's what he, he would be like, when we do a party, it's going to be the best party, you know, or we bring people together. It's going to be like the best thing they've ever been to. And he, you know, so when we've,

as we've evolved, then we've gotten into like our summer camp events and, you know, our summit events and stuff like that. Like a lot of that motivation is for him of really wanting to bring people together and then to make it awesome, you know, make it amazing. So you have this inflection point because this real estate partner that you have, they have your, your, your interests begin to diverge because they basically just want you to focus on their buildings. Right. And you could have said, okay, filled their buildings and had like a really nice business. Yeah. And just said, you know, and maybe kind of inch your way out of that to other buildings once you had filled those to capacity.

But instead, you take, you, you, you know, you do this risky move where you break up with this partner. And that all goes back to this like bigger vision that you held. And that all goes back to this bigger vision that you held. Yeah, there was a couple of moments in there where I remember when we finished the first building and if we would have just stopped there. It would have been good. We would have been the most money I would have ever had in my life, just in the monthly income. We were all like, wow, this is actually pretty good. And then when we sold, we also had a moment like that where we were like, you know, we had a chunk of money that we could have been like, wow, you put that in the

bank. And our third partner, Gil, who did that, who, you know, went back to Israel and, you know, said this was an achievement. But Adam and I just immediately, I mean, Adam even said to me, he was like, don't put that money in my bank account. Just keep it, you know, or put it somewhere else. Because I know, you know, I'll spend it if I have access to it. But he was like, we're letting it ride for sure. So it was never even a question. Yeah.

Not a question that it was, we're just, you know, at the beginning of this. And we put all that money that we got into the start of the next thing. And I think from the very beginning, that was because we knew it was big. It wasn't like, oh, we're going to do another version of Green Desk where we could be comfortable or we make money.

That never came into it. It wasn't like, oh, we hit on a good business model. Like let's make, you know what I mean? Like we knew at that moment that this is like, okay, something way bigger. It's not going to be about like our individual financial success. This is a part of a way, way, way, way bigger thing. Right. But then you have the practicality of like trying to get the, you know, what's going to be the first new building and what has now been rebranded as WeWork, right?

Like you're still two young guys. You got a little bit of money. But these are, I mean, this is, you know, this is capital intensive. And it's also the New York real estate world. Yeah, it's like where no one, you know, like family and credit and all these things matter. You know, relationships, which we knew nobody. But you did have one thing that happened, which is in 2008, like the market turned, right? So suddenly there's vacancy where there didn't used to be and there's not as much demand.

Yeah. So two things. I mean, there's that part, which is there's vacancy. There's less demand. There's less like new tenants coming around the corner. So a landlord who wants to wait that out doesn't have a clear path for one, but then two, there was some difference, at least in the argument of what like a credit tenant is, right? Cause you, you were thinking that like Lehman brothers is like a credit tenant at the time. You think that's not a company that's going down. That's a rock solid.

And then a lot of the companies like that, maybe not at Lehman Brothers level, but at lower levels, were affected. They defaulted on leases. So we could at least say, hey, that was the old way. We're the new way. And I don't think anyone believed it. But at least it gave them a little bit of comfort, you know, in like in our story. And we had a lot of buildings that we put a lot of time into that then didn't work out because when the boss heard about it, it was like, no way.

Like whoever the real estate management team was like, yeah, these guys are cool. They're doing something interesting. And then the boss heard about it and he was like, no, that's a stupid idea. You know, we never rent to those kinds of people. Was there ever a moment where you thought maybe this isn't going to work or was Adam just so persistent? Yeah, I don't, I don't, my, I mean, my brain doesn't really work that way. I don't usually have. How does it work? Well, I think it's more like always moving forward with some level of, I don't know, confidence that if we're doing something that's good, it's going to work out. And so I don't remember ever having any question about that. But I also don't think we had much downtime to worry about.

It was like even though the deals weren't coming through, Adam was creating the deal flow where it was always the next one and the next one and the next one. It was like we're producing for each one of those. We're negotiating the lease. We're producing some sketch version of what the building's going to look like, how much our income could be. So we're kind of test fitting all those projects before we – so it wasn't like we're just sitting around going like, what's going to happen?

We're pretty much in it waiting for like the domino to fall. And then what was the break that led to the first building? Well, that's a – it's weird because this is business, this is a business, but there was a lot of, um, emotion that went into it, um, back then. And the first building, uh, was a building owner who I have love and something opposite for, um, because he did take a chance on us, but he also, um, I would say tortured us to some extent by just fighting every single term of the lease. Um, you know, who just being so intense as a negotiator and a arguer and a person who like felt like every term was life and death for him. And this is the way some of the people, I mean, this is a man who, you know, his family escaped Syria, went through serious stuff. He thinks of that building as part of his life and his family's future.

So I don't begrudge him that. But at the same time, the fight for every millimeter of that deal was in hours and hours and hours of arguing. And for me, I don't enjoy that. Like maybe some people love that negotiation. But now looking back, thinking like that was one of the more difficult leases that you ever had to negotiate, does it feel all the sweeter?

No. No. No, no, it doesn't because it was really hard for me. Like it was hard emotionally. And then, you know, and there were other layers of difficulty once we started building out that building. Because if you look at like just the lease, then imagine now we're trying to build and it's like there's issue after issue in the building. And now you have to argue about who pays for this unexpected cost. much time and energy arguing and fighting that it took a lot out of me, which I wish I could look back on it fondly. But to be honest, like I-

But you wanted that learning curve, right? I know, it's weird. Did it make you bulletproof for the next go around? Yeah, it did, but in some ways, but it also, there is that building when I walk by it, and I love that it's the foundation of the company. But I honestly – I feel something that feels painful. Is it in Soho? Yeah, it's Lafayette and Grand. And I love it.

It's like where we started. It's an amazing building. It's great for the members there. But to be honest, it's hard for me to walk love it. It's like where we started, it's an amazing building. It's great for the members there. But to be honest, it's hard for me to like walk through it. But I should add also, and this is an important part of the equation, is that my son, who is the exact same age that we work, was also was born at the same time that this was happening. So I was in the most intense phase of both of those things. And so that was, you know, I didn't sleep for a long time. And I was, you know, so I think it was a lot of things that added up.

And again, I'm not, I mean, we made it through it. It's great, but it was hard. It was super, super, super hard from an emotional perspective. And I mean, add to that, it's a startup where we didn't have, we spent the money to build the building. Every month we were on the hook for the rent, you know. And I believe that if we defaulted, that was someone who would take the building back. It wasn't someone who's like, oh, no problem. Pay me next month.

So I watched the bank account every day and was always making sure. I got to, when we get to that month, make sure that we've done all the stuff right with the money that we pay on time, right amount. Was it a similar experience with, that you had with, with GreenDesk though, where you, you know, were able to fill subscriptions like right away and you just knew, you knew like this is, this concept works. And that was the balance. Like we were, it was so great in the building from the beginning. And we had this, we had an amazing community team from the start.

Lisa and Nathan, who were the first community management team. And they were incredible at bringing people together. And also the members that we had from the early days were awesome. So it was both sides. That's what was so interesting about it was that there was so much fulfillment in this, like what you got from the energy of being in the building. And then this other side of, like, wow, it's hard to make this work every day. But, I mean, it was all worth it for sure. Right.

As a designer, as an architect, when you're faced with the proposition of a build-out, you're looking at a floor plan. And it's up to you to figure out, how do I create a roadmap, a design, a structure, a flow that is conducive to promoting these values that I care about? How do you think about that and then break that down and kind of implement that into a physical space? Well, first of all, it's definitely been an evolution, a long evolution that we're still learning from and trying to figure out. But there were a couple of things that I actually, they seem so basic. But the first thing I felt like was that you want people who feel happy because if we run into each other at the coffee machine or whatever if we're happy we're gonna have a good interaction if one of us is like feeling like shit that day

either we're not going to speak or i'm going to like drag you down or vice versa right so so there was this fundamental thing of how do you get a feeling of like wow this space feels good and for me in architecture school it was like daylight was always a big part of that. So first thing we had was every building will be on a corner. So there's two sides of light minimum. Obviously, a freestanding building is even better. But it was like we're never going to take a building that doesn't have great light and that it's democratized where it's like everyone gets some of that. It's not like the people next to the window get it and then everyone else is in the dark.

So that plus making everything glass, which was kind of like a dumb idea at the time in the sense that it was so basic. But when I was in like Psych 101 at Colorado College, we learned just about familiarity. And they said that like people who are familiar with each other are more likely to be friendly with each other. People actually like find people more attractive who they're familiar with. You know, there's all these benefits of familiarity. So I thought if everything's glass and everyone can see each other, that will over time build up the chances. Like if we've seen each other's face eight times but we've never spoken, well, now we happen to see each other on the elevator or out in the wild at a restaurant. We're going to be like, oh, I know you.

Like you're the guy from down the hall, right? So that familiarity would over time would build up this potential for a connection. And then from there, we learned to try to create spaces that were actually designed. We call it center of gravity, but spaces where sort of all paths lead to the same place. Because at the time, there was a lot of residential was getting to be competitive. And there was a lot of these cool buildings where they made awesome amenities. You put on the roof or second floor of the awesome gym and the big TV and the pool table, and you go into these places. There's literally no one there ever.

There's nobody there. So it's like they're doing something wrong there. They're spending all this money to make the amenity, which checks some box when you rent you whatever, rent or buy, but then it has no value beyond that. So what we wanted to figure out is like, there's obviously a good intent, but something's missing. So how can we create a way that you just naturally flow? And that to me became something I'm still really curious about, which is just thresholds and how we make decisions about things. Because obviously we don't always make decisions that are good for us right even though we might think like oh yeah it would be great to go

hang out in the common area if you have to like get on an elevator and go up six floors yeah probably not going to do it you know like you're just lazy for the most part, mentally even. Regardless of the energy to walk there, it's oftentimes you're just mentally lazy to make the decision. So the idea was to remove threshold conditions where you don't ever have a decision. You just flow. It's on your way to wherever you're going, by the way. And then that just happens in that you have a lot of different places to go. So let's try to make those spaces multifunctional. And then let's try to present a lot of options in those spaces because, you know, there are great speakers who speak at WeWork all the time. If I get the email saying, cool speaker, four o'clock, am I going to go like,

put that on my calendar? I'm going to go to the speaker maybe once in a while. But a lot of time I'm going to be like even though I signed up, I'm too busy to go. But if I just happen to be walking by and I'm like, oh, wait, who's that? Oh, that's cool. Pause, listen for a few minutes. Whoa, this is actually really interesting. This is cool. Maybe I'll hang out and linger longer. Then I can like accidentally be connected to something that could actually have a really interesting effect on me.

And so that's been a really like there are a lot of those things where it's like it's actually annoying in both cases for the people to have to have the speaker in the space because there's all these people wandering around. And then, you know, versus an auditorium where it's like everyone's closed up. And then on the same on the other side, it's like if you're in your office and there's a speaker, it could be annoying. But those are some of the risks we are willing to take of like, let's have the speaker. Let's play the World Cup game in the common area, even though there's going to be some people. And we still get the emails like, so stupid. Why is there a soccer game on in the common area? I'm trying to work, you know?

Why is there a soccer game on in the common area? I'm trying to work, you know? But those are the trade-offs in like the overall net benefit, which we believe, yeah, you're annoyed and you're trying to make your phone call. And, you know, we understand. But overall, it goes back to the same thing. Everything is glass. What are the first people who come in and do? First thing, can I cover the glass?

Almost everybody, right? Can't cover the glass because if I let you cover it, then the next person come in, they want to cover it too. And soon we've completely lost that benefit that was fundamental to the business. But there's got to be instances in which people do want to have a private meeting, right? Yeah, and we want to provide that.

There's a bunch of functions we want to provide for. So that's a big part of a revolution is how do we actually make spaces that are supportive of lots of different work types? And that could be like the phone booth, which we added probably in building two or three because we knew people need a private conversation. Or it could be the Nook, which is one of the most popular little spaces for two people to hang out. Or we've evolved conference rooms over time to have different sizes and shapes. And we added boardrooms, which we didn't have in the beginning. We added classrooms. And now we have in some buildings,

meditation rooms. So it's like we're continuously evolving that collection of supportive functions. And we're still working on it. We're still trying to figure it out. Well, I think that at least in Los Angeles and perhaps in a location or two in New York, you should have a dedicated soundproof studio space for people to do a podcast. I mean, everybody's a creator, right? Yeah. All these YouTube, everyone's creating their audio visual content in one form or another, particularly in this town and certain other towns. But, you know, that is a trend, right? Yeah.

in other towns, but that is a trend, right? Yeah. And I've done podcasts in various WeWork conference rooms, and I'm like, they should just have one room that you can reserve that is quieter than the rest, right? Yeah. You guys gotta do that. Okay, well, let me explain that one a little bit. I can't be the first person to bring that up.

Building number two in New York, Empire State, opened with a screening room. Literally, the second building we had opened with a screening room and a recording studio to support these functions. And then first building in Hollywood had editing suites and screening room and stuff. Oh, it did. So, cool, but you people who record podcasts, you start to get a little specific about the things that you need. Not everyone wants the same thing. You have your lights and your camera set up, and then there's some technical need that you have that this doesn't fulfill. And now we need our own manager of that technology in those spaces, one.

And we also need, in some way, a different sales function because we're used to selling workspace and you want a podcast room, right? So we don't have a dedicated person who knows how to connect to and sell to. So we make these spaces. They're fine, I think. They're not perfect. And then we don't have a separate website for the person who needs a podcast recording studio, right? So sounds really simple. We're still working on it. How do you think about the nature of work itself? I mean, I would imagine you put a lot of thought

into this because this is the business that you're in. And we're in a situation in which the tectonic plates of what the workplace is, what it looks like, what it means to, quote unquote, go to work, are really in flux. So what is the philosophy that you hold around that? Where do you see it going? What is the future of work? Work is the harder part. Work is the harder part. What we need as humans, as people, as social beings, I perhaps even just the ways that people are effective and efficient in their own

way that they work. If their knowledge or brain power is the most important thing and they don't need that for as many hours of a day as we currently think of it. Who knows how that will change? But what we feel really confident is that we need this. Like we need the human connection of being face-to-face and spending time with other people. And building that social, emotional, communal, communitarian infrastructure to be supportive of whatever those work models evolve to be, right? Because they'll continue to change over time. But we know that, like, what happens next to that will continue to be really important. So, when you look at something like Flatiron School.

Like, Flatiron School, really awesome school. They're amazing at teaching students in real life and we're able to add community to that and it's great. But it's not, and it's like we can do a lot of locations, but it still won't be scalable to the masses, right? But Flatiron as an online learning program can actually be effective because we can take the people who are learning online and create that community and support that community of those learners in a whole bunch of different places where we don't have an actual physical location of a school. Right? So I think that's where education may be changing. Work might be changing. You know, the way we eat is changing. Lots of things are evolving. But irrespective, we still need to be able to connect with each other in real life.

And we need to get way, way, way better at that. Like we're still doing it at a minimal rate, right? There are still so few of us who have one hour of a day where we feel like it's that fulfillment of connection. Now, a huge emerging part of our business is working with large companies to create a similar environment of openness, of connection, of creativity, of innovation. Because that's what all the companies are aware that—maybe not all, a lot of them. Like a large company would contact you and say, help us figure out how to reconfigure our workspace. Yeah, exactly. And so they have to change.

They have to change their workplace. They have to change their culture. They have to change the way it feels to work at that company. And so we're really excited to be a part of something like that because if they don't, they just continue to do this the same way they've always done it, right? And we know that's not the right path for all of our future. They'll just become antiquated. And they'll fight really hard to keep doing it the way that it's been done, right? And they'll do

that because their shareholders will require it of them up until a certain point, right? But at the same time, they need to be a part point. Right. But at the same time, they need to be a part of the solution. Right. And we believe we can help. We believe we can be a part of that kind of transformation. So you guys have recently embarked on this We Live initiative where now you're creating living spaces. What do you have them in like New York and D.C.? Yeah, New York and D.C. They've been around for a couple of years. We're going to we have one in Seattle that will open soon. And then like studios or all the way up to like literally almost like communal living spaces with multiple bedrooms around a shared living space or how does it work? Yeah. I mean, we're still in the ones that we have, there are,

you know, I believe up to four bedroom units or four bed units. And we're, there are, I believe, up to four-bedroom units or four-bed units. And we're really experimenting with that on multiple levels because in different regions, there are different ways that code allows you to do different things. So in New York, there are more restrictions, although the government's actually working on evolving that. But we're trying to apply some of those same principles. Again, there's something about residential where it's like you feel in an apartment, you enter the building, go up in the elevator, the hall is empty, a bunch of closed doors, you go in your apartment, and that's it. You don't have any connective tissue. There's nothing that draws you in. You don't have any connective tissue.

There's nothing that draws you in. So ideally, we would create some of those same environments that are threshold-free or with reduced threshold so you just flow into other potential connections. And are they all in buildings where you have WeWork office space as well? Yeah, so it's all integrated. So it's almost like in the way that Apple created this ecosystem, I mean, closed off is the wrong connotation, but like kind of this world in which you can inhabit. This feels like a similar thing. Like you can enter the Wii, what's the new name that you guys have re- The Wii company. The Wii company experience to live, to work, to eat, to work out, or whatever it is. Which is like, that's like, I mean, talk about like big vision.

That's like a huge vision. Yeah. We just had an initiative that was made public, which was We City's initiative. Uh-huh. And it's- An entire city that you would design an entire city. I don't know what it means exactly, but I think if you, again, there's something about it, which can be like, well, those people are crazy. They want to like take over everything.

And then, and I keep getting back to why, and this was part of the start of our conversation is like, what do we need to be really good at? We need to help people in real life, face-to-face, make connections to fight disconnection, loneliness, depression, plagues of our time, right? of our time, right? So you could look at it from the like Frank Lloyd Wright perspective, which was design everything and like control the user and even determine what clothes they're wearing inside of the home that you develop, right?

That's not what we're trying to promote. But at the same time, we would love to have influence on people for a really fundamentally important reason, which is to increase that possibility. Yeah, it's audacious and it's bold, but it's also beautiful because the truth is we are starved for that connection. We're in an epidemic of depression and drug addiction and anxiety and stress. And we really are dying to be more connected.

And a big kind of contributor to this affliction is the way that society has kind of created these environments in which we live and work, right? So the idea that, hey, let's, if you were gonna design a brand new city and it's all about, it's all gonna facilitate connectivity, connection, and community,

like what would that look like? Like there's, yes, there's an idealism built into that, but there's also something that's pretty cool. Like what would that city look like? And I can tell you some of my happiest moments were when I was a college student. I was on an athletic team where I was super close to these people that I spent a tremendous amount of time with. And then I would go back to my dorm or these suites where I lived or a house that I shared with other people.

And we did spend a tremendous amount of time in these common areas. And the doors were always open. And that sense of feeling connected to other human beings in an environment that was conducive to like learning and growing is a really amazing thing. And I would like more of that in my life now. So when I hear about, you know, we live and you could like move to New York

and like immediately tap into like this situation that's community oriented and then work. I feel like I was born out of time. Like I wish I was, you know, 23 right now and I could go experience that because I feel as an adult, you know, now I don't have as much of that in my life as I would like. And I know that I would be a happier, more fulfilled person if I did have more of that. And I know most people would as well. Everybody would, right? Yeah.

Well, it's weird because when we first started, we lived there with some almost derogatory evaluation saying, like, it's dorms for adults. Yeah. But I kind of like, I'd be, like, stoked to move back into a dorm. I mean, in a way, it's like, wow, there's some really good, like. I liked living in a dorm. Yeah. I don't think, I mean, I'm sure there it's like, wow, there's some really good. Right. I liked living in a dorm. Yeah. I don't think. I mean, I'm sure there are some people who don't.

And there are downsides, which, again, with design, perhaps we can figure out how to reconcile. But, yeah, it's like the good parts of that are amazing. Like, so good. Like not having to like text and plan and like, okay, I'll meet you over there. You know, and everything is, you know, kid play dates and everything, you know, everything's just so structured. It's like when you're in the dorm, it's like you're just rolling through life, you know, and like bumping into people and who knows what's going to happen, you know, next. And I think that's something that like people look at that like that's somehow an immature way of living or something. And that's weird. Like, it's really weird that like we somehow created this construct where we're like, growing up means go live in a isolated. Wall yourself off. Yeah. Like why? I know it's so weird. And I mean,

I'm sure I, there's plenty of reasons why it happened. But I think now the problem is that it is very hard to change because it's actually, like you said, very expensive infrastructure that supports this way of living that we have now. Yeah. Right? And residential is harder than work. work. And that's one of the reasons why we've been able to scale WeWork very quickly because on any WeWork floor, there's one set of bathrooms, right? And one kitchen. And then a whole bunch of highly efficient space. Apartments get more complicated to build and there's way more plumbing stacks and HVAC issues and all these kind of things. So from an execution perspective, they're very different.

But, again, the foundational why behind them can be so similar. So if you were to design a WeCity, let's say you could start from scratch, like what does that look like? You know, it's a great question because, I mean, we were talking that this today because I drove to work for the first time in my life today. Um, we were in LA and you know, everyone drives. So we were like, we rented a Tesla, um, which I hadn't driven a Tesla before. I've been in one, but I hadn't driven. I'm like, I mean the gas pedal, like it's like a rollercoaster a little bit, which is cool. Um, but, um, but I drove to work. I'm like, I mean, the gas pedal, like it's like a roller coaster a little bit, which is cool. Yeah. But I drove to work.

I like went into the parking garage and I suck at all of that. Like I didn't know. I just, I didn't remember where I parked. Like I didn't pay attention. Anyway, I'm just bad at like all stuff related to cars. I'm really terrible. But the point is that I've always been walking, biking, subwaying now. And I really love that. And so I think that there's like the first thing, I think transit and transportation is just a huge part of any city.

And when that, you know, so the first time I heard about autonomous cars and even Uber as an idea that no one would ever park. And then someone said, think of a city where no one ever parks. That was one of the coolest things I heard about the future of cities because obviously it's cool to think of other ways of transit, but even just the fact that our streets could be liberated from all these cars and what could you use the space for. And, I mean, L.A., you just you just imagine like if you made i mean just the scooter lane yeah could be amazing here and take half the people out of their cars and put them on those cool scooters i mean and make it safe for them

so anyway that's not as visionary as we wouldn't need to get to and and i haven't I haven't indulged in it enough, but I do think that what I think would, one of the things that would be fundamentally different is that we would just be much less governed by the typical systems of time in the way that we usually work now, which is like you wake up in the morning, do your routine, get to work, spend whatever number of hours that is, you know, eight or 10 hours a day. You go to home, you have dinner, you work out, you go to bed, right? I think that there's, for me at least, being much more free-flowing about that. We're really untethered.

We can be really untethered. Ideas can come and efficient working could come in all kinds of different times, places, and spaces. So if you can imagine just a network of, like you said, when you're working at home, I'm sure you have the times where it's like one space really works for you and it's great and you're engaged and there's other people around and there's a buzz. And then other times you've got to get completely out. You've got to be in your own private box. And so if you can imagine a city working that way where it's less more about binary, I'm in or I'm out, but much more about a spectrum.

And you're always existing in some kind of different spectrum of entertainment, work, health, life. We talk about walking meetings, trying to promote that. So it's like just this much more spectrum-oriented, threshold-free environment that just feels like I'm alive all the time. I'm doing good stuff all the time. I'm in a good mental mindset all the time. Not like switch into this, switch into that, switch, you know what I mean? Because I think that's, I don't know. I think that we show up.

I mean, my feeling is that we could show up differently if we were like that. Like if we were just much more free rather than compartmentalized. Well, there's no question about that. I mean, you know, our cities, our urban landscapes were designed in a different time with different priorities, and a lot of them without much mindfulness whatsoever. I mean, Los Angeles is a perfect example of that. Like, it just went up, and now it's here, and we're dealing with, you know, so many problems that could have been resolved at the inception had it been, you know, had it been well thought out and planned from the outset. Yeah. And, you know, with what we know now, if, like, you could just wipe it out and start over, you know, imagine how much better it could be with the technology. What's weird about LA coming from New York is that like the assets of LA are like so amazing. You know, like it's like in New York, it's not like you're going to go find this incredible

canyon or like a beautiful orange tree that, you know, or like a garden or, you know what I mean? It's like, it's like you're finding urban everywhere. But it takes you two hours to go 15 miles. Right, exactly. So you may not even get to those things. Like you may close your mind to the idea that you're even going to experience that diversity. But if you can imagine like incredible high-speed transit here

and super convenient public transportation. And it would be like, oh, yeah, I'm going to be on the mountain or at the beach or, you know, wherever that might be. And like, and it doesn't, and it feels frictionless. Then this would be like the wonderland, you know? We'll get on that. Small problem to solve. All right.

Well, Green Desk was conceived with this environmental sensibility. And now you're kind of starting to explore that with WeWork. You announced this meatless initiative that made a lot of news all around the world, which I thought was amazing. I would imagine that was a risky maneuver for you guys. It's a bold statement and super cool. So can you kind of talk about what went into making that decision? Yeah, it's interesting because the motivation on some level was not about, not necessarily about me itself, but about accountability and about, you know,

personal choices and the impact that we have. And, um, and these things have come up over time, not about meat, but about like paper, you know, or energy, like our lights, you know, being on and why don't, you know, and Adam to his credit is very aware all the time of inefficiency. He sees things and he's like, I walk down the street and the lights are on at a WeWork building. Why are they on? This has got to be a waste of energy. And he's paying attention to these things all the time. And then we're looking for like, okay, what switches in your mind where you start to care about these things rather than just like walking past them without thinking about it. And so we had, I mean, Adam's fearless leader doesn't have any like

worry about saying or doing things that, you know, would be controversial. And so we were discussing like, what are the things that we could do that would increase, you know, personal accountability? And that one came up and it wasn't actually, you know, a big, we didn't think of it as a huge decision. I mean, I think he knew in saying it for the first time that it would actually, people would be like, whoa, I actually didn't. I was just like, oh yeah, that's like, I was like, whoa, I can't believe that he actually said it because he said it when it was still, you know, TBD of to whether it wasn't like a fully baked idea. It wasn't like we prepared the whole team and like, you know, prepared a whole thing. And that's the way we've done a lot of stuff over time is just instinct and intuition and just like right time.

Just do something, you know. But it was part of an overall discussion in about that personal accountability. And so I took that as like, this is amazing because it actually is a spike that pretty much nothing else would get, you know, like you can ask people to like be more aware of their choices in a lot of other areas of life. And it's kind of, eh, you know, like we've, we also have eliminated plastic from our operations. Right. And like, you know, it's easy to forget and you still go out to the local deli or whatever and come back with a bag full of, you know, plastic flatware or whatever. And, but meat has been, you don't

forget that one, you know, It comes up in your brain. It's like, if you're going out to dinner, you're going to remember that that was something. And then you have to ask yourself, what do you do with that information? And I think what we've seen, I'm sure some people could care less. They've gone and lived their life normally.

But we've also seen a lot of people are like, this is the first time I've ever thought about that before. This is the first time I've ever understood the implications of my choices when it comes to food. And that's the stuff I get super excited about is that we've also heard people say, hey, I've talked to my family about it. It's influenced the way that we eat as a family. I have a really good friend who sends me pictures all the time of their family eating vegetarian. And it sounds like kind of crazy, but like there are kids who are, you know,

19, 20, whatever, who are like really proud vegetarians and vegans because of our influence. They're not even WeWork members. They just happen to be friends, but they're just, they connected to it. So that's the stuff that I think actually will have a ripple effect.

Have you seen that ripple effect in other corporate cultures? Well – Like you kind of broke the seal on that. It comes up. It's come up in different contexts. In talking to leaders in both HR, other business fields, I get the feeling that we're creating space for conversations. So if people look at us as the crazy ones who are doing the wild stuff, and we're also thought of as a cool company that people know about. And they can say, hey, look, we're in, we want to hire the same talent that WeWork is going to get. Look at what people who work there care about, like they're mission driven, they're purpose driven. We need to find that too, right? What

are the signals that we can find within ourselves that are going to put us in a place where we can even be on the close to the same page as them, right? So I haven't seen anyone else go so far as, um, but you know, I've been in a lot of conversations where people have said, Hey, we're thinking about something like that. We're thinking about doing something. And I'm very like, I mean, I'll, I'll, I've gotten, you know, a lot of knowledge in conversations with people to, and understanding how like misaligned companies are in terms of the efforts that they make. So, you know, you can have a company like a big bank who has said, we have a new $200 million fund to invest in, you know, green technology. And we believe wholeheartedly that, you know, we have to support innovation in this area or else we're all screwed.

So they can say that. And then I'll be like, so are you guys still eating meat in your cafeteria? Yeah. And they're like, what are you talking about? Yeah, they're not connecting the dots on it. This all ties together. And then also say, what does your CSR program, your impact program look like? And they're like, oh, wait a minute.

That doesn't all come together. And I think that's the kind of thing which we're excited about being in those conversations. Yeah, just be able to initiate that conversation and get people thinking about it a little bit differently. initiate that conversation and get people thinking about it a little bit differently and start being mindful of like working towards some, you know, form of carbon neutrality or working towards, you know, reducing that carbon footprint. Yeah. And I would say one thing that I've, one of the effective techniques and I promote it for other people who are conveners or people who gather smart people. One of the things that I've been saying is that whenever you're bringing people together where food is not the

point, meaning you're not going to a place to eat the best blank steak or whatever it is, or you're bringing together thought leaders who should be able to at least understand that there's something bigger going on here, then make those events meat free. Make those the time when you don't serve meat because it's not like, you know, people are really protective of like grandma's meatballs or whatever. You know, they're like, we're not going to give that up. Like our family needs that. But like the like chicken breast and steak steak at a crappy catered event.

That's not even really the meal. Yeah, who cares? That's pointless. That's nothing to do with why you're there. So most people have received that. I've gotten a few immediate reactions of like, fuck off. What are you talking about? You're trying to police my life exactly but you're not

you're just saying we're not going to pay for it well in our in our case yeah we're not going to pay for it we we're not going to be a part of you know the consumption but i think there's the other level of you know if you're appealing to people who are smart people who care they might not be ready to make that leap themselves but i think that you can at least say, I mean, we know like reducetarian is a thing, right? Like it would make a huge difference if we just had less consumption. So look for those opportunities to consume less. And then that will, collectively, if that spreads, we change the expectations of like, you know, what we need from those kinds of events.

And then those are all business leaders who care. Okay. Now their mind is open. Why don't we have meat? Here's why. Oh, wow. Okay. Have you, I mean, because you're doing this on such a huge scale, have you run the numbers on, this is the amount of water that we're going to save. This is the carbon emissions that we're sparing. Yeah. I should know that stuff. Animals. I mean, there's got to be stats on that. We've done some of that. I'm like, so not the numbers person.

Adam has definitely commissioned those reports. The numbers are big. Coffee is a huge one, which we're trying to figure out because the implications of coffee are big and we serve a lot. We're doing a lot of study of our supply chain to try to understand where things come from. And we have a team that's a sustainability team that I am already super impressed with trying to create, you know, not only understand where things come from, but where do they go after they come into our buildings.

And we're looking at ways that we can always keep them inside so you know and this is a long-term thing but saying once something comes into a we work building it never leaves whatever that might be um i don't we don't know for sure what that means yet but that's what we're looking at is that circular you know path and then also um really really understanding we have wood desks we have wood flooring you know have wood flooring. We have the building materials. Where does it come from? All the building materials. And the cool thing about our scale is that we can actually be market movers in that way. So it's like our buying decisions could have influence. And that's something I'm trying to learn more about.

I've heard some great stories from people who have been empowered by that. They've known that they have, say, a huge power requirement for a factory or whatever, and they're able to influence, you know, government in a country to say, I'll build the wind farm, you update the grid to deliver me my renewable power, for example. And that's the kind of stuff I'm getting excited. It's very early stage for us, but that's the kind of stuff I get excited about. I was saying, like like at scale, we could now influence, you know, a municipality or a city. We're going to roll into this country or this city that we haven't been in before, but here's what's going to have to happen. Exactly. That's like real power. Yeah. And think

of it. And I mean, there's so many downstream implications of that that can be so positive if you, you know, look at the ways that, you know, cities care about economic development. They are motivated by jobs. They're motivated by things that, so if we say we're gonna build something locally, whether that's a sofa or a chair or a desk or light fixtures or whatever, you're talking about pretty good amount

of economic potential there, right? So that can actually move the needle. You guys have announced that you have this goal of being carbon neutral by like, I don't know, 2030 or something like that, right? Yeah, 2023. 2023. Yeah, which is actually, you know,

it's not that hard in the places where renewable power is available. It's very difficult in the places where it, you know, where the grid is not you know if you don't have a grid that gets the power into the city and we're in the city you know we're going to be facing challenges there but those are challenges where again we're just super excited about engaging it um i don't have all those answers but but um but i think like a year from now we're going to have a really awesome story to tell about that and how we're figuring it out.

And then also add, we believe we can be a convener of other companies. So if we're talking about scale, it's like, you know, other companies who want to be purpose-driven, mission-driven, care about the future, believe in their role in helping with climate change. believe in their role in helping with climate change, if we're the convener of those companies and now we say, hey, look, we've got out of all the office buildings in downtown, we could get 20% of them. Now that's even more buying power that could move things to happen. So that's the stuff that we get excited about.

And that could apply in different places, like we said, from transportation. We're looking at things in LA of what we could do point to point between buildings to reduce driving, things like that. So a lot of future there, which should be fun. How important do you think it is in 2019 for young entrepreneurs, people that are starting businesses, to think in terms of triple bottom line values? Well, it's weird because I exist in that world, so I thought everyone was that way already. But I had a conversation yesterday with a woman, Julie Hanna, who I'm coming to know and really appreciating. She's an early technologist and entrepreneur in the Bay Area who's an investor

in a lot of different companies. And, you know, she was seeing it differently. She's like, you know, maybe if we're lucky, it's 50-50 in terms of like mercenary versus missionary. What's the advice that you give to young people looking to start businesses? Like, what have you, I mean, you've blazed this extraordinary entrepreneurial path. You know, what have you learned from that? Well, I used to say this differently, but I was talking to, I had a event with Sean King a couple of weeks ago, and he had this cool framing where he said, you have to, and I hope I'll say it the right way. He said, you need to find out, find what you love to do. And then you need to find what you really care about.

And if those two things match up, meaning if you can use what you love to do to address what you really care about, then you will have found your thing. And I think that's, for me, I hadn't heard it in that way exactly before. But if you look at it for me, it's like, I feel like I really cared about human-centered design. I really cared about, I really love design. I love the process of like rigorous problem solving. Like that was my, I would do it without getting paid, right? Which is always like the thing, like, what would you do? If you find the thing you would do without being paid and then you apply that to a business problem, which is that workspace suck, people are disconnected, everyone's lonely, that was a perfect connection point for me. So that's what I would encourage people to do is look for really to understand like where does their core the depth of their being where does where what do they what do they love to do what would they do if they're

not getting paid and then how does that apply to an actual business problem a social problem something that they feel really passionate about being a part of changing and that I think once you find that then it's like it doesn't really matter the scale of the business or the level of success or, you know, like you become a millionaire or all that other shit doesn't really matter anymore. Because now you're just existing in this place where you're doing something that feels like a full expression of yourself. Yeah, and if you can match that with a problem that really needs to get solved, right? Where there's a service component to it and a need. Yeah, and that's why I would say don't start another photo sharing app. You know what I mean? No one needs that.

What do we need? You know, I mean. You're going to start over. Well, I mean, there's a lot of slices and we, I think we're again, like the world that I live in, I think that we see a lot of people finding that slice and, um, and it comes in weird forms. I mean, our creator awards, which we, uh, give out to companies that are an efforts. I mean, you know, nonprofit for profit, we say creators because they're not necessarily entrepreneurs

in the similar sense. It could be artists, whatever it could be. But in creator awards, the winner this last year was a company that does something that seems really kind of weird, but they're basically like a marketplace for used medical equipment. And that sounds not so awesome without understanding it too well. But the way I understand it is that, you know, they're through taking underutilized medical equipment from hospitals that have already like upgraded to their new MRI machine or whatever. Now they've got this

old one just collecting dust in the corner. If you can actually make that one available to a hospital that can buy it at a discounted rate that doesn't have an MRI machine at all in some, you know, smaller town that, you know, used to be like, you have to drive two hours. Like you've actually done something to support a small community and their health, for example. Right. And those are the kinds of things where it's like people, you know, that's a really narrow slice of the business world, but it's actually doing something impactful. And I think that's what we get excited about is that there's so many, if you're thinking about it in the right way and your motivation is really to do good, there's a lot of opportunity. There's a lot of

places to find something that's not what gets the headline of the hottest new startup. You seem like a super grounded dude. How do you... Yeah, he's looking around. Are you? Is he not? Like, you're pretty chill, dude. You could be rocking a different kind of lifestyle. You know what I mean? You don't seem like you're...

You seem like you have a very healthy relationship with your ego. I can hear the humility in your voice and you, you truly, you know, come across as mission driven and value-based in your approach to your life and your business. So, you know, how, to what do you attribute that? Or like, how do you like maintain that sense of self? And's something i i mean i've been trying to um figure out in different times because it's it's hard to understand but like like i've had some of the weirdest questions in that way like there was this one guy who literally walked up to me one day and he was like one of our employees and he goes

hey man i just really wanted to ask you this like how are you you uh-huh and i'm like how are you supposed to answer that question like um and i'm like what can you expand on that and he's like he's just like you know it just doesn't make sense like you're like you know you're like so successful you know like it's just not what people expect but i don't know exactly what, I don't have a counterpoint in my own brain of what I could be, right? Like I'm just myself. So it's hard to like, I don't, I can't perceive a different me, right? Other people do. And they, they're, people can be like surprised or disarmed or like, well, this guy's different than I expected, but I don't have that. So all I can, you know, the thing that I get to is that what I feel really

good about is that, and I, and I'm trying to, I am trying to understand why, but I just feel like really comfortable being myself all the time. You know, I feel like I'm my authentic self, no matter whether I'm talking to you and it's recorded and there's cameras or whether I'm speaking in front of, you know, doing a commencement address in front of my, you know, at my university or whether it's speaking to someone who literally just like grabbed me at the airport and was like, hey, are you Miguel? And I'm like, yeah, I mean, I think. I wasn't expecting anyone to know who I was, but I am.

And having an authentic connection with that person, not just being like put off by that. And I think, I don't know why that is. I just feel really good about it. Like I feel like really, and I believe that once I felt it, I've indulged in it. Like I've been like, you know what? I'm not going to ever believe that I have to put, I've indulged in it. Like I've been like, you know what? I'm not gonna ever believe that I have to put on some other face. Yeah.

I just won't do it. Well, it's nice and it's refreshing, you know, in a kind of period of time that we're in right now where, you know, the Elizabeth Holmes story is, you know, top of mind with the documentary and all that. I just watched it. I listened to the like six-part podcast series too, which is like amazing. The home story is, you know, top of mind with the documentary and all that. I just watched it.

And I listened to the like six-part podcast series too, which is like amazing. It's fantastic. I'm like obsessed. And the Fyre Festival documentaries and all of this where you see these, you know, these quote unquote, you know, entrepreneurs that have, you know, their ego spiral out of control. And there is no connection with authenticity and they're not grounded. And perhaps these are journeys that began with good intentions, but trajectories that spiraled out of control.

Yeah. I mean, I have to attribute a big part of that to being partners with Adam and him giving me the freedom to be myself because I didn't always have to show up in front of everyone. early investors, you know, he still has the high level relationships with people where it really, you know, that funding and financing that you've referenced, which is to an extraordinary, um, amount, you know, when you judge it from the outside, you know, he's the one who's had to show up in some of these very, from the very beginning and high intensity, um, these very, from the very beginning and high intensity exchanges, situations, and I've been able to do my thing. You know, I was able to build up a credibility by being a part of that creative process of

building the experience and the business and the brand and stuff like that in a way that just was very natural to me. I didn't, and then hatch something else from that, you know? And so, you know, again, that goes back to that partnership of like, what were we able to do and what was some of the magic of it? It allowed me to be me the whole way through. And I'm still, I still feel like I'm finding out who I am. I'm on the journey and I hope to continue to evolve. It's not like I'm like,

I made it. So I still see it as like, okay, we're figuring it out. Like I have complex shit to deal with in my own head and I'm working on it. Yeah. You know, how do you, uh, instill these ideas in the, in the management team? Like, how does that go downstream to make sure that that integrity remains intact? Well, for me, I mean, that's a lot of just leadership by example, meaning I just try to show up in every context that I can as my authentic self, and I promote that. I will say it's not like a really proactive,

like leader circle as an example, which I did this morning with the local leadership team here in LA. That's an exercise which we did just to find vulnerability and share stories and be ourselves, hopefully, our authentic selves for two hours out of our lives, our busy week, our day, whatever. But I think that that kind of connection is, one, means something to yourself. Then it means something to those around you. And then there's something that just going through that exercise of connecting to yourself will flow to the people who, as leaders, now to their teams, right? I don't know if they'll conduct the leadership circle. I hope they do. It'd be cool if they did, but just the fact that

they got in touch with themselves, I think will help them show up differently. And so that's a lot of what I try to do is conduct those kinds of experiences where they, where you get into something that perhaps you aren't normally asked for in your regular business life. And that's something which, again, I think it's like practicing what I preach to some extent of actually making time for those kind of experiences. And we do it, you know, if I go to Seoul, we do it with a group of leaders there. When we go to another city, it's like that's the exercise that we do as well as other things. But make time for that. And, you know, Adam is a, and I also, you know, at all company meetings, I will try to connect people to context and give us perspective about where we are and how we should, how

we show up. But Adam also plays a role of being, you know, a visionary leader from a much more specific side, meaning like here are our business goals. Talk about our growth. Talking about how we as individuals have to perform in order to reach these big goals that we're setting for ourselves and what you know, as a person to show up in this equation? So it's still a play, you know, it's still a play. And I don't have a lot of like specific accountability for that stuff. It's not like I'm running a leadership program.

It's like, I'm just trying to embody it. Right. And that's why it's so cool to be in both of those places at the same time. It's like, we do something really hard. We make spaces for people to exist in. People are a pain in the ass, right? They don't do what you want them to do. Air conditioning, one person's hot, one person cold, sitting this close to each other, right?

Maximize that to half a million people around the world. You're the biggest human resources department in the world. Exactly. And they're not your employees, right? If all the people work for you, it's like you just go, hey, just take it. But these are people who are paying us their monthly membership fee. So they're like, if I'm paying the fee, I want it at the temperature that makes me comfortable, which is a totally fair assumption, right? It's hard sometimes to negotiate with a person like that who's like,

yeah, but the person next to you. So anyway, so that's hard every day, delivering hot coffee, making the bathrooms work, cleaning the bathroom, having a smile on your face every day as a community manager when the member walks in. These are things that are in a very difficult business to execute again at scale with great speed but then like what are you a part of that makes all of that worthwhile it has to be something way bigger. You got to feel like if you're like on the front lines in like Jakarta and you are opening a building and all you've got is your local team and you're like, we got to open on the first of the month no matter what because members are moving in.

I mean, that is a stressful situation for them. And they're far away from, you know, they don't get to see what's going on at our hq in new york and feel that energy they're a small team that's so far and yet they feel like they're doing something that matters they feel like they're actually moving the world forward when they open those doors and the members come in they they believe they're doing something good. And that's like, so that to me is a big part of my responsibility is to keep helping them connect to that energy. All right. Well, we got to wrap this up in a minute here. asking you how you maintain balance in your own life as somebody whose job is to create workplaces and foster a healthier relationship with work. Like,

does it feel weird when that gets out of whack in your own life? Like, how do you show up and be, you know, a loving and present partner and father while trying to steward this massive organization? Well, I will say that for a long time, I didn't do that well. I think that I was unhealthy in the way I approached my life outside of work. I do think that for my son's life, my life outside of work. I do think that for my son's life, I've really dedicated the right energy to him. But in other places, I think that I wasn't good at it. But I went through divorce and I was re-establishing myself and who I am. And I met someone and fell in love with her and she's amazing. And she shifted my appreciation for a whole other like dinner or, you know, actually enjoying it, not just eating it functionally, but like going out and enjoying it and like actually having

some appreciation for like, and I still have to work on this. She knows that of like, how was your day? You know, being present. Gratitude. But caring about that, like I can, again, I can preach that at work, but then it's like at home, I can just be like, oh, you know, this is, I don't know, something else. I think I thought about it before as like, you know, recovery time almost as an athlete. It's like, this is the time to just like, you know, functionally repair, but not actually be present in a – that it has equal value in a way. And so that's been a huge shift for me. And I know even Jillian, my assistant who I work with, she knows and she's very good at helping me being much more aware of like making a schedule that helps me achieve more of this. I don't necessarily call it balance, but I would just say because I do think it's like a spectrum.

It doesn't mean I'm not thinking about work at the time when I'm doing other things. But it is like just a greater level of awareness. And then so with Jesse and I, when we're together, I think that we try to be present with each other. And that's a commitment, which, again, I feel I take seriously. And I love it. It's a practice. Yeah, it is a practice. And when there's a lot of other inputs that could easily take over that that whether they're in work or they're just life or they're like i mean to be honest we discuss like do we listen to too many podcasts sometime because you know it's like you feel like you

need to learn and you need to grow and you have to like the the latest amazing person is on rich roll you got to listen to it but it's two hours you know we've gone two and a half today so you know you have to ask yourself like i encourage people to listen to it but at the same time it's like okay at what point do you stop that consumption and actually be you know present and obviously there's commute and other times you can do that but it's like um but yeah i think that that's like you said you said, it's a practice and something to be as purposeful in life as you are at work. And I think that's always an opportunity to do better, try to find that purpose and to be good at it, like to try to be really good at it. Yeah.

Good, man. It's good talking to you. Yeah, I really have enjoyed this. I always say like I learn from these experiences because I learn from speaking, which sounds really maybe self-absorbed. But I feel like I learned a lot today. Well, the more that you share your own story you, that's hilarious. Yeah. The more that you share your own story, the more it tells you what it is and what's important, right? Or you try to figure out like, well, what is it about that experience that could be helpful or meaningful

in my own and how I think about myself and how I communicate, right? I know that's been the experience in my case. Well, all I can tell you is, look, I know what it's like to suffer in an insufferable work environment and to be in an uninspiring architectural professional habitat. And I appreciate what you're doing, man. And you really have impacted the world in a way that few people on earth can say. And it's inspiring what you've built. And I can feel the intention behind it. And it's a beautiful thing, man. So wind in your sails, my friend.

Thank you. Yeah. What's next? You know, we're actually trying to get into Kanye's Sunday sermon. Oh, nice. So are we? You mean back out in Calabasas? Try to convince him that we're worthy of attendance.

What's the angle? Dude, if you can't get in, you know, come on. I'm sure you could find a way to finagle that somehow. Well, yeah, we're meeting with someone who works with Kanye. So we'll see if he likes us enough. Maybe he'll give us the thumbs up. All right, cool. Miguel, I appreciate you.

Thanks, man. If people want to learn more about your world, just go to WeWork, right? Is that the best? You're on Twitter, your name. I don't use Twitter. You don't really use it? Instagram, your name. I don't use Twitter. You don't really use it? Instagram a little bit.

I don't know. That's a really good question, and I should have a good answer to it, but I have no idea how you're supposed to learn more about me. Google, I guess if people could Google you, right? Yeah, I think you should go on YouTube. I like your speech. My commencement address has way too few views so i think that people should watch that that's the good i agree i watched it it is

very authentic i appreciated like the honesty and just the kind of like unabashed like unpretentious way in which you showed up for that it's very cool cool. Thank you. Yeah, man. Appreciate it. Come back and talk to me again sometime. I would love to. Peace. Good stuff, you guys. I like that guy, right? What's not to like? How can you not like Miguel?

He was really cool. Really enjoyed that. Hope you guys got a lot out of that. Please let Miguel know what you thought of today's conversation. You can hit him up on Twitter or on Instagram at Miguel McKelvey. And please make a point of visiting the show notes on the episode page at richroll.com.

There you can go down a rabbit hole on all things WeWork and Miguel, and you won't regret it. We put a lot of time into those notes, so please peruse them, check them out. Again, I'm going to be doing my very first live event, experience, podcast, extravaganza in Los Angeles, Friday, September 27th at the 1100-seat Wilshire Ebell Theater. It's a beautiful venue. Tickets are available on my website under the Appearances tab. For Patreon supporters only through midnight, September 9th. And then after that, we're opening it up to the general public.

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Jeff Gordoneer. It's a great story, super fun conversation. There's all kinds of backstory to that as well that led to me going to Copenhagen, which you may know if you follow me on Instagram. More on that in a couple of days. Until then, work hard, be great, get connected with your friends your family your co-workers stay humble peace Thank you.