The Rich Roll Podcast - Mindfulness, Meditation & Performance: Manoj Dias Live At The Rivian Performance House

Episode Date: August 20, 2026

Manoj Dias is a meditation teacher, author of "Still Together," and co-founder of the mindfulness studio Open. Recorded live in New York at Rivian's Performance House, we get into wellness as a secular religion, mindfulness as a choose-your-own-adventure, and what's underneath the language of optimization. He also explains what an NBA team practices before the shot. Then it opens up to a Q&A with the room. Manoj also guides everyone through a practice. A few rounds of five breaths in and five out, then gratitude. Follow along. Enjoy! Show notes + MORE Watch on YouTube Newsletter Sign-Up Today’s Sponsors: Airbnb: Your home might be worth more than you think. Find out how much👉🏼https://www.airbnb.com/host  Gusto: Get three months free when you run your first payroll👉🏼https://www.gusto.com/RICHROLL  Momentous: Get up to 35% off your first order👉🏼https://www.livemomentous.com/richroll  Freaks of Nature: Save 20% with code RICHROLL👉🏼https://www.freaksofnature.com  Rivian: Electric vehicles that keep the world adventurous forever👉🏼⁠https://stories.rivian.com/richroll Check out all of the amazing discounts from our Sponsors👉🏼https://www.richroll.com/sponsors  Find out more about Voicing Change Media at https://www.voicingchange.media and follow us @voicingchange Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Mindfulness doesn't mean just being calm. It means being really available to the present moment. Manoj Diaz. Sri Lankan meditation teacher, founder of the Open App. He is an animated speaker, humble teacher, and thought leader in the mindfulness space. You are not your thoughts. When I heard that, I think that was the first moment I'd experienced conscious mindfulness. Like, I heard my thoughts for the first time.

All we have is our attention and where we decide to place it ends up dictated. the trajectory of our lives. Loneliness is continuing to rise. Mental health rates are continuing to get worse. You don't meditate to get good at meditation. You meditate to get good at life. We're really good at being anywhere but here. The moment we have to just be with ourselves, it's very hard.

If we're not our thoughts, then who are we? Jeez, how long do we have? Get this. Thanks for coming out, everybody. Nice to see so many happy faces. Very excited for this conversation. Manoge, I think the best place to start is with you making the case for mindfulness. Why should we care about this instead of just yada yadaing it? We've all heard for the longest time this word mindfulness.

It had like a real moment, I think around the 90s when everyone was practicing mindfulness a way to work with stress. John Caputzen really introduce mindfulness-based stress reduction, and that became the prevailing connection to that word. Over time, it's becoming so many different things. I've worked in different industries where mindfulness can be how you perform at work, for example. It can be mindful cooking. I have one sort of workshop on mindful sex,

and I'm like, this is cool, but what does this word mean these days? right and so I'm kind of a little flexible on what it means but for me I come from the Buddhist system so that was how I was born and raised so for me mindfulness is a way to really free myself from suffering for me to overcome the patterns that keep on happening in my life my own neuroses and so if that is interesting to people I think you should care about mindfulness but also I think it's interesting in a place like you know New York which is kind of wild I've been living here for a year and a half and it's kind of insane. And I'm like, if I didn't have a mindfulness practice, would I be okay?

I'm like, I don't know. Share a little bit about your entry point to this because you're Sri Lankan. You were sort of raised in this tradition, but it took you a while to realize you had to develop your own relationship with it. Yeah, I think people assume because when they look at me, got a shaved head, I'm brown. I'm like, he probably meditates. I didn't. This was never, it was never a part of my life.

Like in Sri Lanka, mindfulness and Buddhism is more of a religion, whereas in the West, it's becoming more of a philosophical practice. And so for me, I came to it through suffering. Like, that was my entry point. I was in marketing and advertising. And if anyone's worked in marketing and advertising, you probably know this story. Had like an anxiety attack one day. I was trying to figure out what that was, because I'd never experienced anxiety. or even a panic attack.

Went through all these different ways to try and fix myself. You know, went and saw psychologists, psychotherapist, took medication, took time off. And nothing really helps me unless until a friend told me one day, come to a yoga class. And I know, no, shit, this is actually what I said. I said, I don't know any Lulu Lemon, I can't. He's like, no, no, come. There's lots of hot girls there. it's also what he said

and that got me so I was like okay I'll come and there was no hot girls there and no Lulu Lemon but there was like five guys over the age of 70 it was an ex-Buddhist meditation teacher and he was really talking about mindfulness he was talking about meditation and developing awareness

and I think that moment was the first time in that class when he was saying you are not your thoughts he kept on repeating that you are not your thoughts when I heard that, I think that was the first moment I'd experience conscious mindfulness. Like I heard my thoughts for the first time. You know, you're never going to be anything or, you know, you're always going to be sick, or what are you going to have for lunch?

And I was actually just able to see it without having to embody every single thought that popped into my mind. Why is it that the Western mind and the Western way of life is so resistant to mindfulness? Is it our self-identification with our thoughts as being the definition of ourselves? What is the source code that makes it more difficult for our culture to kind of cotton on to the benefits of the lifestyle that you espouse? I don't know if it's necessarily Western culture in general, but I think it's definitely in places that are very metropolitan where there's a lot of industry. I mean, I can feel like it at times like I'm, I wake up in the morning to work to produce, so I have to perform, so I have to be optimized, so I have to have this 30 minute morning routine just so I can get to my day and get to sleep at night at a certain time and wake up and do it again. So I think there's this prevailing belief that slowness is almost antithetical to our way of being. And the interesting thing is mindfulness doesn't mean just being calm.

It actually doesn't mean just being slow. It means being really available to the present moment. I think when we're available to the present moment, we're much more attuned to what's here versus the anxieties, the stress, the worry, and the future thinking, which I think culturally maybe in the West we're really good at. We're really good at being anywhere but here. And maybe people in the East have figured it out.

But then, you know, I see people in Scotland. They're pretty mindful. and present. It is insane that the only thing that's actually real is the present moment, which is constantly fleeting, and yet we live our lives persistently, you know, rehashing things that happened in the past or tripping out on what's going to happen in the future. And we're so rarely actually available to use your word in the present moment, which is reality.

Yeah. Yeah. And that's hard, though, right? The reality for a lot of us is hard to be with because the moment, actually, has anyone gone on holiday recently? And the moment you go on holiday, you get like sick or you just get tired, right? And it's because we're operating under this level of intensity that the moment we have to just be with ourselves, it's very hard. Or we're restless and we're immediately looking for the activity to distract ourselves from. Everything that we've been running away from just is like, hello.

We bring it with us. We bring it with us, exactly. Yeah. One of the things that you're known for is making these practices, ancient practices, accessible to Western audiences. And I'm interested in the tension there, because the way to appeal to the modern person who is living in the three-dimensional world is to say, this is the way to reduce your anxiety. This is the way to improve your relationships.

This is how to be more productive at work. this is all kind of wrapped in this language of optimization. That's how you get people to pay attention and go, oh, I need that. It's an entryway, but it's not really what this is about. I mean, I think it can be, to be honest. I just think that's a very superficial layer to this experience. I think we have looked for ways to integrate mindfulness in a way that feels appeasing to society. culture and you know John Cabot Zinn like he's the one that everyone talks about as being the one

that really was able to integrate mindfulness into contemporary culture and he did it through the lens of the medical system he said you know if you're stressed do these techniques what he didn't add was like okay look at your mind as you're experiencing life look at the way you're behaving look at the morality look at the ethics around it which is not as cool as saying do the techniques and yeah feel better right if you tell someone to live more ethically to lie, to not steal, to not harm someone else, that's a lot more confronting. So I think that's how we got it into society and to culture. But then I use the example of kind of eating an avocado with the skin on.

It's kind of like it's okay, but it's not great. But then you peel the skin, you eat the avocado, maybe you add little salt and lemon. I don't know, it tastes way better. And I feel like when you go a little deeper into mindfulness and meditation, that's where the real taste and the real essence of the practice really begins. to show itself. Yeah, maybe leading with the existential crisis of like, if I'm not my thoughts, who am I?

Yeah. It might not be the way to bring people in the door, I guess is what you're saying. But if we're not our thoughts, then who are we? Jeez, how long will we have? Yeah. I mean, I think that's a, that's a contemplation. And it's for me, it's, I think the easiest way to explain it to secular audiences is that it's not so much a question of if we're not our thoughts, who are we?

It's that can we feel this essence of interdependence with each other? I think we focus too much on our individual selves. That's why hyper-individualism is so venerated in today's society and culture. But for me, it's less about me, actually. It's more about how am I in relationship to my wife, to my new friend, to the people that I'm meeting every day. how can I move through the world in a way that doesn't cause any harm, but actually does the opposite, you know, cultivates presence, creativity, compassion.

I think they're much more interesting to me now than I'm really trying to figure out my own individual life path and spirituality. I don't know the exact quote, but the Dalai Lama said something like, obviously a different tradition, but he said something like, the point of meditation isn't to, certainly not to, like, optimize. It's not to, like, reduce your anxiety and improve your sleep. It's not even necessarily to make you a better person. It's to make other people better. Yeah.

That's a really beautiful sentiment. And it gets to that idea that you're referencing around, you know, venerating individualism and understanding that the happiness we lack is in the service we have yet to avail ourselves of for others. Beautiful way to say it. Yeah, but I think if you tell people, do this, you're not going to get any benefit out of it. You're going to be able to serve people better if you do this. Yeah, I don't know.

But like optimization, I'm in the door. And speaking of which, there's nothing wrong with that. Like, I'm into optimization. I'm an athlete. I know you've worked with athletes. You've worked with NBA players. What has that experience been like? And what are the benefits that you've seen in an athletic context with the people that you've worked with?

Yeah, I think it's interesting when. when I get the opportunity to work with athletes, whether it's professional football players. I'm from Australia, so I call them football players, not soccer players, or NBA players. It's okay, the World Cup's going on right now. You have more liberal bandwheres to get away with that. Great. It's interesting. Sometimes what comes up for me is, oh, I have to present this stuff in a way that's palatable to them.

And sometimes it's true. Like they have high performance teams and, you know, I have to be very careful around the that I use. But ultimately, one lesson I've learned is that whether they're athletes or whether they're just individual people, older young, we're all kind of searching for the same things. We want to be more available to the present moment at its essence. And I think the context and the relationship to athletes is when they're more available to the present moment, they're able to access their training. They're able to access more creativity on the pitch or on the court. they're able to let go of errors much quickly.

So their response time is just more elevated. And so that same context can apply outside of that, right? If you are just present and engage in this moment, you're overthinking about what you did before or what's going to happen afterwards, you're just here and there's a natural flow to the experience when that happens. Yeah, I think athletes are pretty good

when it comes to the mind-body integration, they understand how to, that this is one thing, and they're familiar with the flow state and the no-thought that, you know, kind of is part and parcel of their best performances and trying to be in that place more consistently is going to unlock better performance more consistently. At the same time, I think athletes are also pretty good

at turning off the communication that their body is trying to, you know, when their body is trying to tell, them something because they can compartmentalize their pain or they can block things out. And I'm curious if that's ever come up. Like that can be ultimately a block. Like I can't deal with any of that because I have to do this right now, shutting down that communication. Yeah, absolutely.

It's funny. One of my favorite, I'm a big Rich Roll fan, by the way. It was like a big moment for me when Rich said he wants to talk to me. One of my favorite conversations of yours, I think it's with Dr. Ellen Langer. And she talks about one of the many conversations I think you've had with her. But one of the conversations is around decision-making and how so much of it is like a mindset. I'm not going to do any service to her by quoting what she said. But I think there's two schools of thought, to be completely honest, because inter receptive awareness is important.

I think it's important in the context of athletics, but it's also important outside of that. And I think it's interesting how we respond to that. So, you know, Ellen Langer's, am I saying her name right? Yeah, Dr. Allen Langer. Dr. Ellen Langer. She's the best, by the way. Yeah. She kind of says it's simply a decision.

Like, you know, we're capable of doing so much more than, you know, we think we're capable of. And I think there's moments when we have to really listen to the body and be intelligent in how we respond to that. maybe slowing down to speed up is an option versus just going so hard out like David Goggin style and just being able to do incredible things. But for the average person, I think it's the average athlete. And I consider myself like a very average athlete. I think it's important that I listen to my body because there have been times I used to play semi-professional cricket back in Australia.

Oh, wow. I don't know if you know what cricket is, but that was my area of expertise. And then there were so many times I just wouldn't listen to my body and I would get injured. Her quote, her most famous quote, Dr. Ellen Langer, is stop worrying about making the right decision and make the decision right. And I think what she's saying in between the lines there is your intuition, like your heart intelligence knows what's right. And when you make that decision quickly, it's really coming from that heart place of knowing what's right for you. But in our culture, we over index on the mind. And so we want to run circles and circles and all the risk assessments and, you know, well, if I do this, then this is going to happen.

And her whole thing is like, you actually don't, like, we're terrible prediction animals. We actually don't know what's going to happen. And you're better off, like, trusting this. And this is a big piece in your work, like this integration of mind and body is so much in our culture about really turning this off so that we can hear this more and learn how to trust it and value it equally, I suppose. Yeah, yeah. I think it is. For me, it's like it's not turning it off necessarily, but knowing how to use it more sharply, use it more intelligently. And I think we don't listen to our body and we don't know how to interpret those signals. And then often what we do is we react. We don't respond, right? Like to Ellen Langer's point, like we have a very strong negativity bias. So if we think things, it's usually the worst. Like we're always predicting the worst possible outcome. So if we just leave it up to the mind, then we're just a fear, fear based animals. But for me, it's more like listening to the cues. It's being able to be with any discomfort, which I know you're very familiar with as an endurance athlete, like be in the mud per se and not be overcome by that.

And then use the mind to know that, okay, this is an impermanent experience. I've done this before. I've trained for this. I can go beyond. So I think it's more what I'm advocating for is this balanced relationality between the mind and body. You mentioned earlier that your tradition of mindfulness

coming from Sri Lanka is rooted in religion or in a secular culture. I'm curious around your thoughts on the explosion of the wellness movement, the explosion of mindfulness centers

and programs and meditation apps and run clubs. To my mind, these are all things to celebrate. People are caring about these things in a way that, you know, historically we haven't. And that's a good thing. But it's also a replacement for a religion on some level. It's a secular religion, this wellness.

And it's become sort of a choose-your-own adventure. Like, I'll take this from this and this from this when it suits me. How do you think about that in terms of your teaching and trying to orient people around these principles? Yeah, such a great. question. I mean, for the longest time, I've been teaching for around 20 years. You know, when I first started teaching, everyone thought I was really weird. And like, oh, that's that meditation guy. In Australia, my parents had a heart attack because I left my marketing job to be a meditation teacher. And so it would be this thing that I wouldn't tell people. I'm like,

oh, I teach. But I think what's happening now, sorry, what I've learned over those years is that I've had to alter my language in order to make it accessible. In previous organizations that I've started, like we weren't able to use the word spirituality because we thought that had connotations and then people would freak out and then, you know, no one would come. And so it was very much around performance, optimization protocols. Like that was the language that we used to use. But, you know, in the last few years, I started to grow an internal discontent with the industry that I was in. because I was seeing the industry itself grow.

$6.8 trillion is, I think, what the wellness industry is valued at right now. And yet loneliness is continuing to rise. Mental health rates are continuing to get worse. And I feel like we're at this moment in time where there's like a real crisis of consciousness. Like what is real? Like what is true? What is ethical and moral? And all of those things combined with the rise of AI, the fact that algorithms,

kind of run our life right now, wars ravaging us, there's almost this perfect storm for something like religion to come back, right? And there's a good and a bad side to this. I think over the last 40 years, religion has been declining. And interestingly enough, as religion declines, more people are identifying as spiritual, but not religious. Interestingly, in the last six or seven years, that number has started to plateau. And in the last, I think, two years, we're seeing a slight uptick in people going back to religion, which is fascinating to me. And I think it comes back to this crisis of kind of consciousness. But what we've replaced religion with, because we still want the things that religion gave us, right? We want to gather in communion. We want to look towards

certain people. So I think podcasters actually kind of replaced pastors and stuff, because people want to believe in something. People want to follow like a protocol because it gives them this sense of safety and direction, similar to like the Ten Commandments or the Eightfold Path in Buddhism, all these different things. And we want to feel safe around people that have a similar view to us. So that's why run clubs are kind of going crazy. Like last year in particular, Strava said that run clubs quadrupled just in one year. And we're seeing this with, I think it was sort of on TikTok recently, how people are going

back to church to meet their boyfriend or girlfriend. I'm like, that's cool. Like, why not? Like, I try and try everything else. But people are looking for that because of this moment in time, I think. Yeah. This episode is brought to you by Airbnb, which I use all the time because I travel all the time. And now that I'm back after back surgery to being very focused on my fitness and my nutrition,

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They did it anyway. That's the standard. And that's why they're the one brand I do not second guess. So check it out. Use code rich roll at live momentus.com slash rich roll for up to 35% off your first order. At the same time, it's the death of the monoculture. And I'm seeing this mimicked in all of these well. subcultures. Maybe I go to this church for communion, but I go here for my breath work and I go here to

do my yoga class and I have my run club and then, you know, I go to Minoge for mindfulness. One of the interesting things about you is that you've consolidated like meditation, mindfulness, and breath work like how are these things different? How do they work together? How are these of a peace with each other? And why should they be kind of practiced as a one as opposed to, segmented in the way that we think about them. Like, you know, we want to put things in boxes, you know, and separate everything, just like our social media feeds, I guess. Yeah, that's such a great question.

I think, you know, for me, what I've really tried to own in the last 18 months is that I think everything is spiritual. And like, I used to be really shy in saying that. I'm like, oh, I don't want to use the word spiritual. I use mindfulness instead. And what I mean by spiritual is that I feel this interdependence with everyone. Like I do. Even with all my algorithms pointing me towards this division, like I'm trying to, as best as I can, open up my field of awareness, my heart to an extent, to everything that's happening here. And so if I think of everything as being spiritual, I think there are many ways to cultivate that level of spirituality. So I don't need to just sit and meditate as a way of connecting to my body. I can dance. So dance has been a huge part of my life the last three, four years. And that's now a practice. that I lead and I teach. I think music is universally spiritual. And I think now we're seeing

the power of sound and how it affects brainwave states and HIV and all that kind of stuff. So music has the ability to connect us to something much deeper. And then there are other things, like just genuine moments of connection with another person. Like they inherently feel spiritual to me because they're rare. And I feel like there's no me in this other person certain times. like, oh, like, I'm so in, I'm so in this moment. Like, I get, you know, like, what Rich is saying, because I've had that experience. And there's this symbiotic sort of dance in that moment

that feels to me like it's a very spiritual moment. So for me, it's all that. It's all a meditation, basically. There's also this idea on this idea of segmentation. It's like, I do my mindfulness practice, or I do my meditation, or I do my breath work. I have my like morning routine and then I have my and then I go live my life. Whereas mindfulness really is about how you are carrying all of this awareness throughout the day. It's not something you do

and stop doing and then live in the same way your body and your mind aren't two different things. This is an integrated. The idea is so that you are mindful more of the time. Yes. Yes. Yeah. I mean like Sharon Salzberg, one of the great mindfulness teachers would often say you don't meditate to get good at meditation. You meditate to get good at life. And I think all these techniques, they're just techniques, unless they point us towards something. Like, I don't do breath work to get good at breath work. I don't meditate to just be a better meditator. I want to know myself deeper. I want to feel more connected in this life. And all those are expressions that we can cultivate through these moments. So another friend of mine once said, yeah, I meditate for an hour every day,

but then I'm a jerk for the rest of my day. Like something's not happening here. So I think hopefully we're moving into a time where we're moving beyond just the techniques because the techniques can be packaged and sold, right? What's harder to sell is a way of looking at the world. And I think hopefully we'll get to that place. Yeah, speaking of techniques,

Minosje is going to take us through a practice in a moment. Before we do that, what is the most common misconception that people have about mindfulness or breathwork or meditation that you encounter in your teaching? That it's a new experience. And I'll explain that. So when people say to me, hey, I've tried meditation, I can't do it. I'm like, but you already are mindful.

And they're like, no, I'm not. I've never sat. I've never meditated. I'm like, well, do you like to cook? And they're like, yeah, I'll have to cook. I can tell me how you cook. It's like, well, chop up the things, blah, blah, blah. Okay, well, as you're chopping up, those things, are you using your hands, right?

I'm like, yeah, like, okay, so you're feeling the texture of the food and the produce. Do you smell the food before you serve it to someone? They're like, yeah. I go, okay, so your senses are engaged in this experience. And so that's a mindful experience. Like, when you run, it's the same thing, right? You're running, you're feeling all the sensorial inputs that are happening. at the moment, whether it's the foot on the pavement, the breath, whether you're noticing

your thoughts telling you to stop. All of that is mindfulness, but it's then if you want to take it into meditation, you kind of evolve that slightly. But if you don't, if you're not into meditation, then just cultivate those same qualities when you're talking to someone. Or you're about to go to sleep when you're trying to do work and then a thought pops up and you're like, okay, my attention is here. Can I come back to my senses and can I just be here in this moment? Yeah, it took me a long time to realize, like, there is no wrong way to do it, because when you become aware that your mind is racing, you have become aware of that, and you are paying attention. And the longer that I've done it, the more I have come to appreciate the value of attention. Like, all we have is our attention, and where we decide to place it ends up dictating the trajectory of our lives.

And we don't really consider that or value that in the way that I think that we should. And the more that I've done this, the more conscious I am of where I'm placing my attention and why. Yeah. I mean, I'd love to hear, like, from all of your experience and as people you've spoken to, like, what's something you've learned about mindfulness and meditation? That everything that I don't think I have and I aspire to have is available to me in the present moment. because when you were present, there is no lack. Like, everything's fine.

And even if that's a very fleeting experience, to be able to return to that, and the more consistently I'm able to return to that, like, you realize, like, it's okay. You know, like, life's pretty good. Yeah. You know. But then you go on your phone and it's like, oh, shit.

New shirt. I know, I know. Why does that guy have that? Yeah. Let's open it to questions. No, thank you so much for that conversation. I was wondering, since both of you have an athletic background and you know so much context, I was wondering what you could say about the whole obsession around peak performance and mindfulness,

but also especially for you, Rich, like, since you are kind of an optimizer to maybe like touch on what is beneficial about peak performance, especially now is never doing so much. Well, my definition of peak performance has evolved, I guess I would say. I mean, I've certainly gone through me. seasons of life where I had a narrow definition of peak performance in an athletic context or a professional context. Like, I know how to hone in on a goal and blot everything out and just barrel forward towards it to try to get the most out of my body in a physical context or my mind in a professional or intellectual context. And I'm now in a season of life where peak performance to me means how can I be more available? How can I actually enjoy this incredible life that I've built for myself rather than walk around stamping my feet resentful and, you know, like caught up in the past or future tripping?

These things don't come easy for me. You know, I have a certain program that's running in my mind and that creates intractable patterns of behavior that don't serve me. And I've been on this journey to like untie those knots and see what's beneath them. And meditation and mindfulness and some other practices have been critical in that. And what I've discovered is that there's so much more to life than my very narrow vision of, you know, what it means to be not just like a quote unquote like successful person, but what does it mean to live a joyous life? You know, that's a foreign concept and ideas like happiness have always seemed like indulgent to me or something that is fine for other people and that I want for other people but isn't necessarily important to me. And now these things are important to me. Like what is the point of all of these things that I've done and all the hard work that I've done and the service that I've done on behalf of other people if I can't enjoy this life, if I'm not available to give and receive as much unconditional love as possible? And so for me, peak performance is really a measure of my capacity to love. And it's taken me a long time to get there. And I'm not very good at any of this. I have a lot of growth and learning ahead of me.

But that's been, it's been a really kind of beautiful unfoldment that I'm kind of in the midst of right now. You should have a podcast. That's, wow. Beautiful. Yeah. I mean, I wouldn't add anything else to that. I think peak performance is usually how people find things like mindfulness, because it's one of those things where you're trying to get somewhere, right? You're trying to get to the optimal place. And I think everyone gets to a point where you're like, oh, I'm never going to get there. Like there's nothing more to optimize.

There's nowhere else to go, but it's just like never ending hamster wheel. We're just chasing our tail. So I think it's a great entry point for people like us, but it's not. I don't know, maybe for me, I don't think it's a destination. Yeah, I mean, you need those entry points. You need those portals. I came into a yoga class shortly after I got sober back in like 1998 because this is where the hot girls were.

And I ended up meeting my wife there, so I achieved that goal. And I got interested in meditation and mindfulness so that I could reduce my anxiety so that I could unleash a higher tier of performance in myself. And everything was very goal-driven, and I needed it then. And the trust in the person that you're working with is like, okay, let's get you in the door. And then once you begin to do this, you'll go on your own journey with it. And if you continue along that journey, at some point, you'll realize that, you know, there's something to this idea of transcending goals altogether and just trying to, you know, catch these fleeting glimpses of true presence. but until you experience those moments, they're just ephemeral.

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stories.rivian.com slash rich roll. Thanks, Minosan, Rich. This has been great. I was really curious about what you're talking about with the interoception piece and the bridge between performance and mind. mindfulness, because I see two different camps from a performance-based lens. There can be the squashing of that interoception because the show must go on. And especially from a younger age, if you learn that you need to suppress these parts in order to perform and do what you need to do under that pressure, that's one thing. And then the other end with the mindfulness, and even if you're coming at it from looking

at symptoms as messengers and trusting yourself, whether that's anxiety, depression, pain, I feel like interoception in the felt sense is a very critical way to feel into things, to actually regulate and to tune into where you're at to heal, especially from a trauma-based approach. And so I'm curious between those two, the performance and the mindfulness, that intersection with interoception and how maybe if you're an athlete, learning to feel again and to trust yourself in that way,

when maybe years there was all about suppression and numbing and kind of pushing through. Yeah, it's such a great. Great question. And we kind of touched on it before, but you know the funny thing is all my years, the number one profession, the people that I see are dancers, ex-dancers, people that have had dance careers because, you know, they've had to work with their bodies for so long. And then, you know, when they quit or they retire, then it's a different relationship to their bodies. They're trying to develop. And so I think from a performance lens, you definitely have to have a quality of interception, but then have the mindset to be able to choose how you respond in that

moment. So for example, I work with an MBA team and with the NBA team, it was like, okay, notice when your heart rate is starting to go really quickly. So have that inter receptive awareness of what's happening and then apply a breathing technique that can bring it down. So then, okay, similar breath actually to what we practice. Okay, so my heart is going quickly. Before I take this free throw, let me take a few moments to regulate. Sometimes we have to have that awareness and be like, okay, I just have to take the shot anyway. We don't have the ability to regulate in that moment, but that's really what peak performance teams that some of these large organizations really do to help people develop this awareness and then find methodologies

to be able to meet them. I think from a trauma lens, it's slightly different. I think you can't even almost compare the two when you're working with trauma because a lot of the literature, the recent literature around trauma is being able to really meet trauma and actually to let it arise and titrate between what we feel and what we don't feel. And so it's almost a completely different thing, but I think somewhat related. Yeah, ultimately, the place you want to get to is not having to suppress anything, being able to, you know, have an awareness of those past experiences, but to maintain your equanimity because you've healed it or you've made peace with it or you've changed your story about it, right?

Like, so you're not like, I have to push this down so I can be really good over here. Like you're just playing a shell game with a kind of a short, short fuse because, you know, that stuff's going to come up and show its face in a not so good way, otherwise. I mean, I've never run a marathon. I've never run more than 3Ks, but I'm curious, you know, when you run and you get those stories and those internal cues around, like, stopping and, like, how do you deal with that? Do you just keep going or do you just need it?

I mean, the easy answer to that is that you just break it down into the shortest, like, okay, I just need to get to the next lamppost or whatever, which is a short. shorthand for saying the more present you are in your experience, then the less you have to worry about, you're not worried about like I have this far to go. Like, okay, I can handle the pain in this moment. Now it's a new moment. I can handle it now. And I can handle it in this moment as well. And that's how you do anything. Like, you know, you don't change your life, make any change short of the tiny little things, these little adjustments that you're constantly making. And I think we think of change in transformation. or I want to change my life as these broad strokes and, you know, like bold proclamations. But the real arithmetic is in these tiny little adjustments that are micro and are being performed anonymously. And they're not sexy or romantic or even all that noteworthy. And that's all about being present and being aware of like what's happening to you in the moment. What is the next thing that you're going to do?

It's not about what you're going to do when you wake up tomorrow. It's like, what are you doing right now? Where is your attention? What is your behavior? How can you show up better in this moment? How can I be more present for this experience? How can I not be caught up and like, am I like, is this working? Are they happy?

But just like knowing like, oh, the value of whatever is happening here is truly a function of how present I'm able to be with you right now. Yeah. Yeah. Thank you. For each of you, whether you're training for a marathon or just main, your regular mindfulness practice, when or if you reach a point where you no longer get that reward or value or output from that action, but it's something you want to maintain and kind of need to push forward with. How do each of you approach getting back to a point where you get the reward or get the feeling that brought you or to that practice in the first place or is the reason why you maintained it.

Meditate is not fun, first of all. No one meditates because they enjoy it. I don't meditate because I enjoy it. What I enjoy is how I change as a person, how I can be more present in my life to the people that I love and care about. Ultimately, that's for me the reward. And even now, like 22, 23 years of practicing later, I still don't want to meditate when I wake up in the morning.

It's like a struggle. I'm like, maybe I just want to see what's on Instagram, just today, just today. And then that fucks me a little, oh, sorry, can I swear? I guess so. Yeah, so I'm kind of, I see it as like maintenance and health, like brushing my teeth. That's how I reconcile it in my mind.

I don't wake up and debate with myself if I'm going to brush my teeth. I just know everyone will appreciate it a lot more. And so the same way I think of meditation as being one of those things where the world will appreciate this a lot more, even if it sucks. I wish I could say it's a non-negotiable. I negotiate with it far too often. Totally. I'm going to double down on the spiritual part and ask you, can you really know your true self

absent a spiritual practice? what have you learned about that through your journey? Yeah, I love this. I can talk for hours about this. No, I mean, I think the self is constantly evolving, right? Like, the version, I think this is where in my education, I've started to really understand and learn and embrace the fact that who I am is constantly evolving. And so I'm super curious about that version of me always.

And so it's never like I've discovered who I am. It's like right now this is who I am. I'm showing compassion to the parts of me that I don't like, I don't love. I'm really embracing these things that are happening, and I'm not running away from life. I think that's really an important part of my spiritual practice, is not running away from it, and meeting each moment just as it is, and not really how I want it to be. Because for a lot of my life, my suffering came from things just not going the way I wanted it to go. And so then I tried to change myself in order to meet those things

versus just being able to meet it, just how it is and find curiosity and openness and compassion for those parts. And I think that deepens directly in correlation to how I practice. And so like right now I'm about to have a baby, not me, my wife. And so I was like, oh, how do I meditate? And that's giving me a lot of anxiety right now. And maybe you can give me some point as, on that actually.

But no, it's just continuously being curious about this version of me and that version of me meeting how I want to live ethically and morally. I'm learning over time. That is almost as important as my meditation practice. Thank you both so much. This has been great. And thank you for the breathwork. Rich, I followed you for a while.

And it seems like you started off with more ultras and endurance. and as you've aged, I mean, you pivot when you need to or feel it seems, and you've, like, from hearing journaling to meditation and still doing swim runs and everything, it just seems like there's always another place to move. And I feel so many people get stuck in, I'm going to do a marathon and I'm going to do a marathon and a marathon. But like, you've opened my eyes to so much more and the guests you've had on have done so many amazing things. And it's just so inspiring to see that there's so much more out there. So thank you.

And as you age, I love that you still bring more to the table. And there's so much like every year. So thank you for showing that longevity is like there and open. And my parents are both Iron Man's. And I'm like, oh, geez, I have to keep up with them. But like, I follow you. And there's always something else to do. So is there something that you think is most helpful?

Or is it like mindset where you don't close off a door or you just open other doors that is most helpful when you keep going? Or is it your support system? I just find that you seem to have the key. And I know you always like seems like you bring it back like, no, it's not me. But you have a key to something that helps others. So thank you. Well, thank you for the kind words. I promise you I don't have the key.

I definitely don't have the skeleton key. But I think the best way to answer that question is related to the previous question. And it has to do with knowing thyself. Like I got into endurance sports, not because I wanted to stand on a podium or distinguish myself. Like, I used it as a spiritual journey to better understand myself. I was very confused about my life and that capaciousness, like that time alone on the trail. Like, I used to confuse it with meditation. I think now it's sort of an active meditation, but that quiet and that connection with my body,

I desperately needed to kind of sort out, like, who am I and what, you know, what do I want to be and what's important to me? Like, I was asking myself questions. I'd never asked myself before. And it just so happened that endurance was like a very, a very important. vehicle for me to go on that exploration. And then when I kind of welded that with my like very goal-oriented intellectual mind, I was able to do some interesting things that other people seemed interested in. But that was the real goal there. It was a journey to know myself better.

And what I've discovered, having gone through that experience and the other various experiences that I've that I've weathered in my life is that in the Buddhist context to know that is to alleviate suffering. It's like, what is causing our suffering? It's our attachment to our identities. Like, the notion of self is really just an illusion. It's a construct. It's a story we tell ourselves and other people about who we are that makes us feel grounded and certain in a universe of uncertainty. Otherwise, we would, you know, spin off our access and we wouldn't know what to do with ourselves. Like, we wouldn't be able to operate. So there's an evolutionary rationale for it, but fundamentally it's an illusion. And being aware that the self or who you are

or how you define your identity is nothing more than a story. And it's a story over which you hold agency. It's a story you can rewrite at your own convenience. And the more you can detach from that attachment from who you are, well, I'm this person, you know, like I have a silver medallion status in my Delta, you know, it's like all these things that we do to make us feel comfortable and, like, we belong, like, we want to belong to the village. We don't want to be outcast. Like, all of these things have, you know, important functionality in our lives, but they also serve to create a lot of suffering. And if you can detach a little bit and realize, like, this story is just a story I'm telling, like, I'm going to go tell this story. You're liberated from the constraints of your identity that's

holding you hostage, and it allows you to grow and explore and be curious about who else you could be without feeling the burden of, like, well, that threatens, like, this notion of who I am. And that's allowed me to kind of walk a little bit more lightly and say, well, you know, all right, well, I just, I had spinal fusion surgery. Like, I don't know if I'm ever going to be an endurance athlete anymore. Oh, my God, like, who am I going to be if I'm not an athlete? Like, well, God, the universe, my higher power. Clearly, they're like, dude, you need to stop. Like, I've been trying to tell you, you need to be more still.

You can't sit still with yourself for a minute. You're always running away from your emotional discomfort. So I'm going to break your back and force you to lay down. And instead of begrudging that or being resentful, like, oh, my God, like, I'm not, I can't, blah, blah, blah. I'm like, what a brilliant, beautiful opportunity of discovery. Like, what if I leaned into this and didn't try? treat it like a burden or a setback, but rather this amazing gift. How many people get to hit

pause on their life and just stop and say, what happens when I just am here and I can't run away? What can I learn about myself? And by leaning into these new opportunities and not considering them as threats, it doesn't matter whether I ever do anything in the endurance context again. It doesn't matter whether I decide tomorrow I'm not going to be a podcaster. I think that people get caught up in these identity silos. And what I see time and time again, and I see this in Iron Man and in Marathons, like people change their life. They've run their first marathon. They do an Iron Man. And it's like the lights go on. They have an epiphany. And they are forever transformed in a very good way as a result of these experiences. They become evangelists. Now everybody has to do an Iron

because look at what it did for me. Isn't this amazing? But ultimately, they end up stuck. And they just, okay, like, I'm just, I got to do more Iron Man's. I got to run more marathons. And they're short-circuiting their growth, like their growth plateaus there. And they don't realize like, oh, I've learned 95% of what I'm going to learn through this experience. And there's a universe of other experiences available to me if I am willing to let go of this and grab onto this. and understanding that change and transformation isn't a one-time deal. Like, oh, I changed and now I'm changed. It's a relationship that we're in.

It's a lifelong relationship and embracing that. Like, what's the next change I need to make? And, you know, it never gets easier in change and transformation and, you know, taking contrary action and getting out of your comfort zone. Like, these are always uncomfortable, you know, but by moving towards that rather than recoiling from it and kind of siloing ourselves in our identity, like, I do this and this is who I am, and I vote for this person, has been very liberating for me.

And so I spent a lot of time thinking about that. And I think that is why I've been able to just be like, okay, I'm doing this and now I'm doing this. And, you know, when I started doing this, I was really interested in this. And now I really don't care about that. And I'm talking to Minogue. And I want to know about the nature of consciousness and, like, what is reality? Like, that's much more interesting than, you know, like, what do you eat for dinner? Thank you.

Thank you very much for the conversation, guys. And I wanted to say thank you, especially to Rich, whose book and podcast has been a source of inspiration for me along the time. I came to the U.S. in 2020, to the city. I didn't have a job. My wife was working, and I was running like crazy. and after reading your book and, you know, getting into your podcast, I ended up running a few ultras. So it really helped me. And it ignited on me a journey that it was, as you were saying, it was self-discovering myself

and the potential of not only my body, but also my mind. But now I'm in a situation in which, I mean, it may have. to many people who get into endurance sports, I got two babies. So I'm finding challenging right now to continue, you know, meditating and finding those specific, you know, or those spaces during my day to meditate, to continue pushing myself into, you know, endurance sports. So life changes when you have kids. I have two toddlers.

and it has definitely, I don't know, challenged my life and my endurance experience a lot. So I was wondering if you guys have a few tips for new dads that I would like to continue finding those spaces and continue. This is good timing for you. I'm listening. I'm not taking notes. Oh, you are. I'm no parenting authority, trust me. in my experience, your children become your greatest teachers.

And the more that you are in present awareness of that, the more beautiful the parenting experience is. And they are mirrors for all of your character defects and foibles and frailties. And so you can't get away with anything. you know, when you have children. And that's beautiful and also challenging. But God or the universe doesn't give you what you're not prepared for. And I wouldn't trade being a parent for anything. You know, it's just been the most beautiful experience I could possibly imagine that continues to give and continues to be challenging. So embrace it rather than look at, oh, well, when I'm a parent and now I'm not going to be able to do this thing or it's going to really compromise this,

The world is abundant and the experience of being a parent will just bring more abundance into your life. And so don't look at it as an encroachment on your favorite hobbies or whatever. Look at it as this gift of abundance that's going to take you on a journey you can't possibly imagine. I think that's all the time we have. I think I want to end it by just saying thank you to Rivian and the Rivian House for hosting this. I can think of no other brand that is more on-brand for the conversation that we just had, because Rivian's all about connecting us to nature and connecting human beings to each other by removing the obstacles that get in the way of adventure and living life to the fullest.

And the more I get steeped in mindfulness and meditation, I realize that's what it's about. like life is this journey and this adventure and I just want to experience it to the fullest. And the things that Minoge teaches and preaches are really the path towards that. So if Minoge is new to you or these ideas that he's talking about, this is your first touchpoint for them. I implore you to do a deep dive into his world and check out his offering. So you have open that the app or like, is that anymore or where, should people learn more about you? Is that over with?

Yeah, yeah, that's old news. But yeah, you should definitely look them up. They're great. I don't know. I'm really bad at this part of the conversation, but I'm launching an editorial platform. It's called Gentle Noise. It's for people that are curious about spirituality

and contemporary culture. So if that's you, it's a non-dogmatic sort of editorial podcast, all that sort of stuff. So tune into that. Should we have you take us through practice. Sure. Yeah, is that cool? Would you like to practice? So a really important practice, I think, is our ability to, and people get really hung up on this when we talk about HRV, like heart rate variability, and people turn it into this big thing that I don't think it's

really all that important to be completely honest with you. But there is a breathing technique that you can do five minutes a day that, A, I found personally to also help with sleep. So if you struggle with sleep, it'll give you really good sleep. It'll give you really good sleep. scores on honoring, talking about optimization. But it's also a really great practice that helps us predict our ability to really weather stress, right, over the course of our life. And it's sometimes used to predict our general health. So really simple practice. It's called coherent breathing. You breathe in for five. You breathe out for five. I like to add a little pause in between. Just feel like it's nice. I don't know. So maybe we'll do a few rounds of that. Yeah.

And so for this, with functional breathwork, which this technique is, you should generally use your nose to breathe. When you're doing other kinds of breathwork, you can use your mouth. But with functional breathwork practice, use your nose. Why is that? It's generally healthier. It's a better way to breathe. It filters out, especially when you're breathing in a lot of smoke from Canada. Thank you, Canada.

It helps filter out some of that stuff. But also, there's other flow and benefits. like we breathe through your mouth a lot. It can make you more tired. It tends to be a lot more depleting as well over time. And there's some emerging research around how it changes face shape. So you care about that.

For the looks maxers out there. Yeah, for the looks maxes out there. So really simple technique. I'll guide you through it. So first, just relax into whatever position you're in. Yeah, just shake your body, actually. Do that. That feels good.

Everyone has been sitting down, listening to us for a little while. Just shake. Actually, shake your hands too. Yeah. No one's watching you. They're all watching me and Rich. Just shake. Good. And then just shake your shoulders. Maybe shake your legs. You turn the outer edges of your mouth up a little bit. It's actually very beneficial to your jaw. Yeah, do one of those. Do it again. Yeah, good. I love that. And then just relax your body. and if you feel comfortable doing so you can close your eyes if not just allow them to soften gently

and I want you to begin by taking a slow, deep breath in through your nose and then as you open your mouth as an exhale let something go whatever that is and then through your nose please breathe in for five four three two one exhale five four three two one pause breathing in four three two one breathing out four three two one in four three two one out in four three two one out four three two one

in one more just like that and out and then keeping your eyes closed I want you to bring to mind someone in your life that you're grateful for visualize that person

as if they are here with you now as you visualize that person I want you to reflect on why you're grateful for them what have they shown you what have they taught you and then take a moment and reflect on

something about your life that you're grateful for maybe the safety of your home the clean water that you drink or what you do in the world what's something that makes your life easier better and then finally please bring to mind something about yourself that you're grateful for What have you overcome? What have you given? This part is often the hardest part. So take this one brief moment and just reflect,

what am I grateful for about myself? And take a big, deep breath in, and then open your mouth, let something go. Whenever you're ready, you can very slowly bring your attention back. Whenever you're ready, you can open your eyes. Is there anyone who doesn't feel better? Right on.

Awesome, man. Thank you so much. Thanks, Rivian. Thanks, of all. Thank you, everyone. You for showing up today. Appreciate you.