The Rich Roll Podcast - Mirna Valerio: Shattering Stereotypes, Redefining Running & Confronting Racism in The Outdoors

Episode Date: August 3, 2020

When you hear the words “professional runner” what image pops into your head? Most likely it's some version of a skinny white male in tiny shorts. Let’s just say Mirna Valerio is here to smash that stereotype — and completely redefine what it means to be an accomplished endurance athlete. She's not White. She's not a dude. And she isn't skinny. She is a total badass of her own design. Back for a long-awaited sequel to RRP #340, Mirna is back to drop truth bombs left and right on all things body inclusion, identity, and diversity in the outdoors. For those new to Mirna, aka the force of nature affectionately known as The Mirnavator, she is one of the most inspirational athletes I have ever met — a true ambassador of sport on a mission to empower humans of all shapes, sizes, colors and genders to proudly embrace their bodies, expand their horizons, and own their personal truth. Today’s conversation picks up where we last left off, spanning her evolution into a full-time sponsored running professional to her work as as a diversity and inclusion educator. We talk about identity, and the way in which we see ourselves as the lens through which we interpret the world. We discuss the difference between body inclusion versus body positivity and acceptance. We talk about everyday racism in the outdoor world and industry--and the work required to assess and overcome our own internalized unconscious beliefs. And it's about defining your values and embodying them in your actions--day in and day out. Mirna’s joyful self-acceptance is both real and rare. It’s authentic and bold. And it's as infectious as it is inclusive. She is totally unapologetic, far from sheepish, and 100% herself. The visually inclined can watch it all go down on YouTube. And as always, the audio version streams wild and free on Apple Podcasts and Spotify. I must confess: after almost 130 days in relative quarantine, melancholy has crept up on me. But there is something about Mirna’s gleeful demeanor that cheered me up. I think she will cheer you up as well. Enjoy! Peace + Plants, Rich

When you don't acknowledge that this actually exists and that my experience may be different from yours because I am black and you are white, then you are absolutely perpetuating racism. Because when you can't see it, when you don't see it, when you choose not to see it, you don't do anything about it. Right. But I also think that you should, and it's difficult now, but you need to broaden your circle. You need to be proximate to different kinds of people and start embracing their various identities. Examine your own. Examine the way in which you were socialized. And then see other people, see others' identities,

embrace them, welcome them into your life. I think that's the way to go. You know, if you have joy to exude, then you should. If you have good things to give, then you should. Maybe we won't win. You know, we should still do it that's Myrna Valerio and this is the Rich Roll Podcast

The Rich Roll Podcast Greetings citizens it is I, Rich Roll,. Greetings, citizens. It is I, Rich Roll, your host. This is my podcast. Thanks for joining me. As many of you guys know, I have a great passion for running. It's a theme that I consistently explore on this show with a wide variety of like-minded enthusiasts, everybody from marathon champions to all kinds of people who have leveraged the power of running for tremendous personal transformation, which is a second recurring theme on the show.

A third favorite theme is breaking paradigms. And a fourth is forging a more just and equitable world for all. Myrna Valerio embodies all of these themes and so much more. Myrna Valerio embodies all of these themes and so much more. She's somebody who basically redefines what comes to mind when we think of professional athleticism. Running is something that gave Myrna a whole new life. She's an endurance athlete who is neither white nor thin, but very much a badass of her own design, somebody who's breaking boundaries, broadening inclusivity, and essentially forcing all of us to think more broadly about things like equality and inclusion, both outdoors and in. The force of nature affectionately known as the Mernovator. She is

one of the most inspirational athletes I've ever met. She's a true ambassador of sport, somebody who's on a mission to empower humans of all shapes, sizes, colors, and genders to proudly embrace their bodies, to expand their horizons, and ultimately own their truth. We're brought to you today by recovery.com. I've been in recovery for a long time.

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Life in recovery is wonderful, and recovery.com is your partner in starting that journey. Recovery.com is your partner in starting that journey. When you or a loved one need help, go to recovery.com and take the first step towards recovery. To find the best treatment option for you or a loved one, again, go to recovery.com. Okay, back to Myrna. I love this woman. Okay, back to Myrna. I love this woman. This is a great one that spans her evolution into a full-time sponsored running professional, all the way to her work see ourselves as this lens through which we see the world. We discuss the differences between body inclusion versus body positivity and body acceptance. We talk about everyday racism in the outdoor world and industry

and the work required to assess and overcome our own internalized unconscious beliefs. This is about defining your values, embodying them every day. And Myrna's joyful self-acceptance is really infectious. It's also real, it's rare, it's authentic, it's bold and inclusive. She's just completely fun to talk to, unapologetic, and 100% herself. I got to admit that after, what is it, like 130 days now of stay-in-place quarantine, among other things, melancholy has creeped up on me, kind of comes and goes. But there's something about Myrna's joy and her gleeful demeanor that really cheered me up. And I think she's going to cheer you up as well. So let's do this.

This is me and the Myrna Vader. Cool, we're back. How many years has it been since we did this? Three years, almost three years. Yeah. I remember it vividly. We were in your hotel room. You were in town for some kind of education conference and we were down in Anaheim. It was fun.

Dingy room at the embassy suite. I know, but I'm really happy to have you back here today. It's really nice to see you. Although likewise, I'm so happy to be here. Yeah. So a lot has changed in the three years since we last sat down, culturally, socially, of course, but also personally for you. I mean, you're now a full-time professional athlete, basically. Sure. Right?

If you want to put it that way, I usually call myself, well, I'm a sponsored athlete, but I do other things as well. That makes you a professional athlete in my book. You make your living as an athlete. You get to travel around and do what you love and talk about things that you love, which is pretty awesome. I do. You're right. You're absolutely right. So what was that like to make that leap? Like you were an educator at like a private high school, right? When I last saw you. I had been in education for 18 years when I decided that doing all of this that I'm doing now and teaching and working at a boarding school was too much. And also I was making more money doing the other stuff.

So I decided to take a leap and it was a really giant leap out of education, out of that security net that I had, just in terms of everything, in terms of my salary, in terms of healthcare and in terms of somewhere to live because I worked at boarding schools, but I just decided to go for it. And I had the full support of my family. My kid stayed at the boarding school for another year while I figured out what and how I was going to do this, how I was going to plant myself somewhere and continue to do all the media stuff and to do the professional athlete thing and to do everything else that I was doing. And it took a couple of months. It took a long time to believe that I could actually function without being attached to a workplace, so to speak. And but, you know, but again, I had all these awesome opportunities.

I ended up in Vermont. Right. So when did you move to Vermont? You were living in Georgia. Well, I was living in Georgia. And then after that, after I had to move out of my house because it was school property. Right. I floated around a little bit.

I lived in Atlanta for the summer in a friend's apartment. And then I headed my way back up to Brooklyn and slept on a couch for a couple of months. And when I decided that that was enough of that, on a whim decided to go up and visit a friend who lives in Vermont. And we were going to have a week of adventure. We were going to ski and take a snowboard lesson, do some indoor rock climbing, do some snowshoeing. And so I went up there and loved it for a week. I only went for a week and decided that I needed to live there in the dead of winter. And I discovered that there were apartments at the inn where I was staying.

discovered that there were apartments at the inn where I was staying and I ended up staying at those apartments and moved in the next month. And I'm not trying to move out of Vermont again. I'm not trying to move anywhere. That's it. I love it. I absolutely love it. It's a community that I think I need to be in. I'm in Montpelier in the capital city, city in quotes, because it's a very small city. A hamlet. Yes, it's a hamlet. The hamlet of Montpelier. And it's convenient.

My son loves it. He's 17 years old and I've made him move to a lot of different places and he is having a great time there. And tons of trails. Trails everywhere. Like even though I'm in a great time there. And tons of trails. Trails everywhere. Like even though I'm in a city, I can, well, I'm not running right now. We can talk about that later. I can, you know, walk or run to a trail half mile away and, you know, just be ensconced in the forest. Right.

That's cool. So how come you're not running right now? You got an injury? Yeah, I have a torn meniscus, which is really fun. It's your first real injury? Well, I've had some- Because I've noticed you've been out on the bike a lot. Yeah.

We should talk about that because it's my new sport now. Ultra cyclist. I don't know about ultra cycling, but I definitely love being out there on a bike. But yeah, I had some Achilles injuries or an Achilles injury still on my left foot. But you can run with that. This takes a long time to recover. And then I started having issues in my knees, which I had never had to deal with before. And it just got worse and worse over the course of a month.

You do that thing where you just pretend it's going to go away and you keep running? Perhaps. Maybe. I don't know what you're talking about, Rich. Yeah. And, you know, it would get better for two days and then it would get significantly worse. And then I finally went on a big hike, and then that night my leg was really stiff, and the whole leg was swollen. And that was very, very unusual. And so I finally went to the doctor.

Mind you, during my transition from being a full-time teacher to this thing that I'm doing now, I didn't have health insurance because America. And so, but I finally have health insurance. And so, I decided to go and use it. And then it turned out to be, they thought it was runner's knee at first, a little bit of arthritis, which that runs in my family. But then finally, I went for an MRI and then they found out it was a torn meniscus. So I will have surgery in a few weeks and hopefully that will take care of a lot of the issues there and I'll be back running. I really miss it. In the meantime, you can ride a bike. I can ride a bike. I've been on a gravel bike, which is my new second favorite thing. I still haven't done that. I got to get out on one of those. Oh man, it's phenomenal. I mean, in Vermont, it's almost 50% dirt road. So you run out of

pavement really quickly and you have to ride dirt road. And it's so fun. It's this thing that I do now. And the family likes it in It's this thing that I do now. And the family likes it in Vermont? The family loves it. I mean, my son loves it. My husband who lives part-time in New York and also in West Africa, he came up and visited and was like, wow, I can be on a mountain. I can walk. I can ride a bike. I can eat really good food and relax. And it's clean here. Because he normally lives in the Bronx or in Harlem. So it's a very different experience for him.

Is that just where his job is? Well, that's what we, when he is in the States, he works as a truck driver and a tow truck driver and some other things. And so that's where a lot of the work is. And so he stays down there and then he goes home to run his business, which is in technology. And meanwhile, you get to travel all around and run races and talk to people and talk about your book and stuff like that. And you've done a lot of races. I think, were you training for a hundred miler when the injury happened or? No.

No? I mean, I know you were like on- I was not training for a 100-miler when the injury happened? No. No? I was not training for a 100-miler. You were on Good Morning America talking to Dan Harris about your 100-miler. Not that long ago. Well, no. I said one day I would like to maybe train for one 100-miler. All right. One 100 miler.

All right. And then they gifted me, Good Morning America didn't, but TCS, which is the title sponsor of the TCS New York City Marathon, gifted me four of their races around the world. And I told them in the interview that, oh, I'm going to take 2020 to be a rest year so that maybe I can start from zero and then start training for a 100 miler. And then they gifted me these four races for 2020. And I said, okay, well, I'll just have to put that off for a year. But then COVID happened. Yeah. Well, everybody's putting it off for a year. Yeah. Right. So your injury kind of happened at the correct time. It is the perfect time. And I'm actually really grateful that it happened now, that all the races are canceled, all the events are canceled, and now I can just take care of myself and rest.

How does it feel to rest? A lot of runners get really uncomfortable with that. You got to be with yourself in a different kind of way. It's an extended taper period. That's what it is. You know what? I actually haven't had a whole lot of rest. To be completely honest, I've been swamped with work since... I was actually in LA in March for the LA Marathon and then spent a couple of days out west here and then went back east, and that's when everything shut down. And I thought I would have some time to just chill and sleep, and I did for about two weeks.

But then I started getting a lot of requests for some motivational, inspirational speaking because people were down in the dumps. And so I did a lot of that. And I don't market myself as a motivational speaker or an inspirational speaker. I just tell my story. I just talk about the things that I'm doing that bring me joy. But I think people get a lot out of it.

So that's what I was doing for a long time. And then racism happened or continues to happen. And then I was pulled in again to even more work. So I have been working nonstop. Yeah. Yeah. I want to get into how you've been pulled back into this education space. But before we do that, I mean, we went into your story in great detail last time.

And people should go back and listen to that. I love that episode and that conversation. But it might make sense for people who haven't heard that to kind of recap your story a little bit. Maybe you could do it in the context of your motivational pitch. But I don't have a motivational pitch. Well, share your story. Share my story. Well, back in – so in 2008, I had this health scare where I thought I was having a heart attack.

And it turned out not to be a heart attack, thank goodness. I happened to be in a car on my way back from a weekend gig with my son in it, and I started having chest pains and eventually decided, stupidly though, to continue home. And while I was having those chest pains, a colleague of mine took me to the doctor, took me to the emergency room where it was determined that I wasn't having a heart attack, but that I had had a panic attack. where it was determined that I wasn't having a heart attack, but that I had had a panic attack, which I thought was strange and impossible for black people, you know, because we're always so chill. And I even said that to the doctor. I said, black people don't have panic attacks. He looked at me and said, I was crazy. But then crazy. But then that set off a stream of doctor's appointments and cardiologist's appointments where the cardiologist that I eventually saw said basically that I was going to die if I didn't change my lifestyle. And I heard him very well.

I knew what he meant, and so I decided that I absolutely needed to change something in my life if I wasn't going to eventually have a cardiac event. And so I got back on my treadmill, and this, incidentally, this treadmill was one that I had purchased a couple of months before, but that I hadn't been using. And it was, I used it as a closet. Like most people.

It had shoes on it, belts, clothing, coats. And so I cleaned it off the next day and got back on it. Did my first mile in about three and a half years. And that mile was very painful. mile in about three and a half years. And that mile was very painful, not just physically, but mostly emotionally because I had let myself get to a point where I couldn't run a mile anymore. And that felt really awful and gross. And you'd like played field hockey in high school. Field hockey. I played lacrosse, both varsity. And, you know, I was an athlete. I had been an athlete since high school.

And, you know, I ran on and off recreationally throughout my young adulthood. And I was always very, very active. But when I moved from New York to Maryland, that's when things changed. And I started gaining a bunch of weight and having lots of health issues, dental issues. My kid was always sick. And I mean, that's really the crux of the whole story is my kid was always sick, which meant that I was always sick and I was always missing work. He was always missing school. And that is very, very stressful. I was living alone with him in Maryland. My husband was in New York.

Was that the inciting incident for the panic attack? That whole three-year period probably was. Because it was a very stressful existence. I didn't enjoy my job a whole lot. I thought I was really good at it. And I think I was. I was really good at my job a whole lot. I thought I was really good at it. And I think I was, I was, I was really good at my job. But I was also balancing being, you know, living the existence of a single parent

while having this job where, where I wasn't appreciated. And, and so I think that sort of culminated in a lot of things happening with me physically. And then eventually I decided to leave that job because it was just, it wasn't a healthy thing for me to be doing with my family. It wasn't healthy for my family either. And so I moved back north to New Jersey to an even more stressful job. But at least I was closer to family. And that's where I had this health scare. I was also teaching. I was teaching full time. It was in grad school.

I was obviously a mom and a wife. And I was also teaching on the weekends too in Maryland. And so all that mixed up together, created this existence that wasn't very healthy or helpful for me. And that's why I had that health scare. And so when that cardiologist told me that I was going to die if I didn't change my lifestyle, I really did make a decision to change a lot of things. I prioritized my day. I stopped bringing work home, which is really difficult to do when you work in a boarding school. I would get up super early and hop on the treadmill for an hour and then do Pilates and then do awful biggest loser videos. Really, really awful. But I did them anyway because I needed to change drastically.

And so, I mean, and I did. I would work out for five hours a day. Wow. Yeah, I was really committed to changing my life in a very drastic way. So that's what I did. Right. And little did you know that this would set in motion this entire new life that you live now, right?

Who knew? Was there a breakthrough moment where you thought, where you really just embraced this idea that I am a runner and this is like the path that I'm going to blaze for myself? I don't think there was one moment. I think I just slowly grew into a running persona. And I never really had any qualms about whether or not I was a runner. Like I ran, therefore I was a runner. But as far as like the really deep running persona and identifying deeply as a runner, I think that just came about organically. And then it's always a surprise to me that people who run don't think they're runners. Because if you run, you use your body

for running. It's something you do regularly. You are what you do, right? Right. Well, we all measure ourselves up against some idealized version of what that means or is. And the truth is, you know, 99.99% of people that are out running are not, you know, winning marathons and things like that. This is the greatest participation sport. But I think what's interesting about your story and what I'm interested in is your example and your story kind of catalyzed a broader conversation about body positivity and what does it mean to be an athlete? Were you surprised at the kind of narrative that emerged out of what you've done? Or did you see that coming?

I did not see that coming. And I was surprised by the narrative because I just did what I needed to do for my body. And I made it public when I started a blog. And I only did that because someone suggested that I do it. And it still is surprising to me that this is even a story. Right. And the fact of all who runs- The story continues to grow. Like, you're everywhere. Like, I first came across your

story by way of that REI video that kind of went viral, the Mernovator. But I keep seeing new stuff popping up all the time. Like, people are continuing to discover your story, which is wild, right? And you're like, well, I'm here for it, right? seeing new stuff popping up all the time. Like people are continuing to discover your story, which is wild, right? And you're like, well, I'm here for it, right? Like I have no complaints, but it is crazy to me that it's a thing. As I said, like I'm just a person who likes to run and I like to exercise. But on the other hand, I know that there are lots of people for whom like this thing that I'm doing seems to be inaccessible to them because they have this idea that a runner looks this way, a runner runs this quickly. A person who hikes is a certain body type, a certain race, probably male.

certain race, probably male. And so when they see me, it blows their minds that I'm out there doing those same things unapologetically and without regard for what people think I should be doing and where people think I should be doing it. The unapologetic part is a big part of it too. Like you always have this huge smile and you're the life of the party on the trail. And I think there's a sense- I don't know about the life of the party. Well, there's a sense like, oh, well, you know, I'm here, but I really shouldn't be here. Like the sheepishness that perhaps somebody, you know, somebody else who's, you know, trying to make this work would feel in that experience. Well, I definitely, when I started trail running, I didn't know what I was doing.

Nobody does. Right. I still don't know what I'm doing. But I would just kind of like hang in the back and listen to the race directors and then go off on an adventure because I always see it as an adventure. And again, not knowing what I was doing, not knowing what I was in for. But as I became used to that and more comfortable with the unknown aspect of trail running and anything that you do in the outdoors, I definitely became more comfortable just being in those spaces. And that's how I operate in any uncomfortable situation. I'll hang in the back and observe, learn things. And then as I become more comfortable, I...

What's the word I'm looking for? Acclimate. Well, I acclimate, but I extend myself more and more when I'm in those situations. Yeah. What's also interesting is that, you know, trail running isn't exactly the most diverse sport out there. What? Yeah, right? So, juxtaposed against running more broadly, black people dominate running all the way from the 100 meters to the marathon, but you don't see a lot of black people on the trail. You don't. That is true.

And that's – there are a lot of reasons that it is that way in trail running and in hiking because obviously those two are related. I think – and people definitely are surprised when they see me on a trail, you know, unless they know who I am already. But when – You're famous now. I'm not famous. But, you know, like it's, you know, in the niche, in the trail running niche. When you're famous, but, you know, like it's, you know, in the niche and the trail running niche, I know people, people know who I am. And so it's not as much of a surprise. But if I'm somebody else, hey, hi, how are you? Where are you from? And a lot of questions and that try to get at why you're here. And you can read it in people's body language too. Sort of questioning like, oh, wow, how did this person get here? Why are they on this trail? And so I definitely have had

experiences when, for example, I signed up for a group hike out of a store in New Jersey. And the a group hike out of a store in New Jersey. And the hike leader, even though I was dressed in trail running clothes, and I was, I mean, I was decked out. I had my Nathan, my trail running shoes, my wool socks. I mean, I was decked out, but she only came to me and asked me if I was ready for this hike. And it could have been because I'm fat. I don't know. But I was also the only black person there. Did I have enough water and have a hydration pack? Do you have food? Yeah, I've got bars. I'm good. I'm good. You can go pay attention to the people that are here. So that happens sometimes., there's a lot of history behind why outdoor spaces that are in forests are considered to be white spaces. And so, number one, that might make them inhospitable for people who are not like me. I will stick my ass anywhere I feel like I belong.

But a lot of people don't have that sense of entitlement. Or don't know that they could be out there hiking or trail running too, because look at the representation in media. Who do you see? You see people like you, Rich. It's Yeah. Maybe a lady. And you definitely don't see me. Although I have been privileged to appear in a lot of publications. But I'm only one person. And I'm honored to be able to be that one person so that people can kind of see themselves or envision themselves doing the things that I do. but there isn't enough. So I think representation is really, really crucial and lacking in terms of what we see as the outdoors, who we see in the outdoors, and who we see doing these outdoor activities. activities. Yeah, it's wild. You mentioned that there's a lot of history behind why outdoor spaces have been considered off limits to people of color. It's sickening and disheartening to hear

that. I believe it to be true, but I can tell you that I haven't spent a lot of time thinking about why that might be. Well, if you think about how the national parks were formulated and how that land was stolen from native populations without regard to any of their history or their domiciles. I mean, that's just one part of that. And I also think of how just land in the US, ownership of land is very, very white. Ownership of any sort of real estate or land is very white. And so when someone like me appears, I look like I don't belong because the ownership of land has been traditionally white. And so, I mean, there's the government, there are private entities that are also responsible for this sort of

whitewashing of land in the uh, in the U S. Um, and, and then there's, you know, white supremacy, white supremacist ideology that, you know,

black people don't belong. And, and we are, we are seen as nuisances in many different types of spaces. So, uh, and there's research on that too, on like blacks as nuisance in public spaces.

It's so heavy. It's really heavy. You see, I'm smiling because it's so heavy. And to have to think about that constantly, and I do think about it constantly. Every second that I'm on a trail, I mean, I may be smiling and I may be gracious and affable, but I am always, always thinking about whether or not people think I belong. And, you know, is somebody going to ask

me a dumb ass question? Are they going to say something stupid? Or are they going to make me feel as though I'm not welcome? I'm always thinking of that, which is why I'm like so effusive with my cheer because I have to be. Yeah. You feel like thinking of that, which is why I'm like so effusive with my cheer because I have to be. Yeah. You feel like part of that is a defense mechanism to put other people at ease, which makes you feel more safe. Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, that's, that's the story of every black runner. Yeah. Every single person who goes out and runs, um, who is black, we have to signal. There's a term for it. It's called signaling, to signal to other people that we are safe to be around and we are not a threat. Yeah, you hear stories of black runners who will wear a sweatshirt or a t-shirt that has a fancy

college name on it or something like that to make white people feel like this person is not a threat. It doesn't matter. It doesn't matter what you put on. Again, I'm always decked out in the latest gear. I wear bright colors. I've got my running cap on, my trucker cap on, a race shirt or something that signals to people that I'm a runner. I was, when I still lived in Georgia, I was running down my own street. And I was two miles, but I had done 14 miles.

And so I was finishing up the last two miles to do a 16 miler. And so I was finishing up the last two miles to do a 16 miler. On my way back home, a woman in a white SUV was coming in the opposite direction and stops about a quarter of a mile away from me. I'm slow, so it takes me a long time to do a quarter of a mile. So I was still pretty far away from her. So she stops. She takes out her phone. She's looking at me.

She's talking on her phone, looking at me, talking on her phone. Again, I am like really decked out. I mean sweaty, but really decked out in all my running gear. And then she gets off the phone and slowly rolls by me and looks at me. And I wave. I'm smiling. Hey. Wondering what the hell she was doing. And you do that on purpose because you know you yeah okay and then

not even five minutes later um cop car rolls by from that same direction that she had been going and he slowed down roll down the window look at me i wave in my head i'm'm like, what the fuck? Right. And that cop rolls away and then another one comes from the opposite direction. Slows down. Rolls her window down. And then I wave again. Hey.

Have a good day. This is in your neighborhood. This is two miles away from my house. And in my head I'm like, I'm just running. I am running. I did have a walking stick that I carried because there were lots of dogs. There were no leash laws where I used to live. And so there were dogs everywhere.

And so I would have to bang the stick on the ground to get the dogs away from me. And so I would have to bang the stick on the ground to get the dogs away from me. And so, but it was a very fancy carved walking stick. And, you know, and so when I got back home, I, of course, I posted this on Facebook because, you know, that's what I do. And, you know, we had some laughs about it. And one friend called me a suspicious black lady running. SBLR. I'm just going to get T-shirts made.

But some other people sort of questioned whether or not, you know, I looked dangerous because I had a walking stick with me. White people, of course. You know, maybe, you know, she was worried. Maybe she was scared by the stick you were carrying. I was like, in my pink shirt that I was wearing and my Nathan hydration pack and my dirty running shoes. I mean, that's the sort of thing that I think gives people pause. Yeah. There's a sociologist named Dr. Rashaun Ray who has done a study of why black people don't exercise in certain types of neighborhoods because of perceived danger for their person. And it's – and that's exactly it.

That's what it is. Like we signal, we wave, we smile, we are extra friendly and bubbly, but it doesn't seem to matter. I mean, look at Ahmaud Arbery. He's just running in a neighborhood. Yeah, I mean, as you're telling this story, I can't stop thinking about him and how your story isn't that dissimilar from his. It has a different outcome, obviously, but the circumstances are related. And you can't listen to the story you just told without conjuring up what might have gone terribly wrong because somebody is confused about who you are and what you're doing.

And why I'm there. Right. Even though it's very clear. Yeah, your signaling couldn't be more clear. And I'm just picturing you running, like what is threatening about that? And what's going on with that person in the SUV that they're feeling so threatened by you?

Where is that confusion emanating from? And what's going on in their life in the SUV that they're feeling so threatened by you? Where is that confusion emanating from? And what's going on in their life that they would, what is embedded in their programming that perceives that as a threat or something to be scared of? White supremacy is embedded in their programming. That's exactly what that is. So let's talk about that.

I mean, you have, you know, a big part of your educational career is teaching diversity, right? So now you're back doing that once again, including teaching anti-racism, right? You're doing this online. Yes. So walk me through what that's all about. So I will say that when I left teaching in 2018, I had no plans on doing further work in diversity, equity, and inclusion because it's hard stuff. I mean, it's really, really hard. It takes a lot out of me emotionally. And I was doing it in North Georgia where I loved my job. I loved developing curriculum

and doing seminars and workshops with the students. It was tougher to do it with the adults. With the parents. Not even with the parents, just with my colleagues. Not all of them though, but it was really tough. It was a boarding school, right? It was a boarding school. Predominantly white boarding school?

Predominantly white, but with a large population of international students and quite a few people who are black, either black American or from the islands or from Africa. So it was very diverse for a boarding school. And so, like, as I said, I had lots of fun, um, doing the work with the students, uh, and, and, and faculty members who were also sold on the work of diversity and social justice. But it was really difficult to do that work with, uh, constant opposition as far as what I could do, what I could talk about, what was not going to rile up the parent community. Right, what's palatable and what's going to be inciting. I did anyway.

I was very privileged in that I could really do whatever I wanted to do. Had an unlimited budget to send people to conferences, to go to conferences, to do programming. But it was still really hard because, you know, I was dealing with a fairly conservative community in North Georgia. And so there are many things that I couldn't do because it probably wasn't safe to do. And so it weighed on me very heavily. And I will say that

my blood pressure went up when I was living down in Georgia. And there was definitely a correlation between racist acts, racism in general, and hypertension in the black community. And I- You're in a chronic state of alert. Right. Right. Anytime I'm driving, anytime – I got pulled over twice. And I think getting pulled over for anyone is a stressful experience, but especially for black people when there's so many incidences where people don't come out of those situations alive. It's scary. Even though I'm a black woman and it doesn't happen as frequently to black women, but look at Sandra Bland, whose suicide is very suspicious. So I'm worried about my son just kind of existing as a day student. When I was there, he was a day student.

And so sometimes he would walk back and forth to school on our road, you know, same road where that woman called the cops on me. And, you know, he's tall and he's black. Right. And so I constantly worried about him. about him. And so, yeah, I definitely, you know, for someone who has never, ever had issues with blood pressure, that started when I actually, when I started doing that work down south. And like, we need, we need diversity education, but don't be too provocative. Yeah. Basically. Yeah, absolutely. And that's, and that's why diversity education doesn't really work.

Diversity education is meant to be celebratory, like to celebrate our differences and to celebrate the way that that enhances all of our lives. Whereas equity and inclusion and anti-racism requires that you are constantly working like under the umbrella of social justice work. And it's not just, yeah, we want to definitely, absolutely embrace everyone's various identities. But there's another part to the work that's really hard and you have to be very introspective and metacognitive about your own attitudes and beliefs and how they perpetuate racism. Right. And somebody has to be willing to probe inward who's on the receiving end of what you have to say, right? Because it's easy for me to listen to you tell these stories. And I think, you know, as a white straight male, I hear the story of the woman in the SUV and I'm like, well, that's not me.

So, you know, I'm not part of that problem, right? But the real work is looking inward enough to see where I am playing a part in this, right? And you have to be open enough and vulnerable enough to tackle that for yourself and not everybody is, right? So I was reading, I just pulled up this article. I don't know if you saw it. That was in the New York Times Sunday Magazine about Robin DiAngelo's work. It's like this long read article about white fragility is everywhere, but does anti-racism training actually work, right? And it sort of unpacks the very thing that you're talking about,

which is you're confronting people with some very uncomfortable truths about not just society, but perhaps our own individual behavior. And people get provoked and defensive and they don't want to hear it, right? So that in turn leads to a bit of a backlash. And I think we're seeing that culturally right now. That is, but this is, I love talking about this. Yeah, so this is why I wanna talk to you. Okay, so part of the, in the course that I teach, Introduction to Identity, Social Justice, and Anti-Racism, that's what I do.

I want to hit people individually. That's what I do. I want to hit people individually. And I want to bring them to—I introduced this framework. It's a framework called White Racial Identity for Anti-Racism by Dr. Janet Helms out of Boston College, and there are differing stages, right? And so what you just mentioned, kind of people pulling back and shutting down from those conversations, that is one of the stages of achieving an anti-racist identity. We have that first stage, which is contact, where people are colorblind and they don't see color. We're all part of the human race. Right. And then you travel through various stages, disintegration, reintegration. And each of those stages has elements

of what you were just talking about, where people, they know racism happens. They know that there is a thing called white privilege and that, and I'm talking specifically about people in the white community and they know that they benefit from white privilege, but then what? Right. You read white fragility. What do you do with that?

You read how to be anti-racist. You read all of these, so you want to talk about racism or, so you can do that, but a lot of people stop there and they don't continue to examine themselves. Or they might give money to the NAACP Defense Fund or they might give money to the Minnesota Fund, the bailout fund. But then they don't actually do the work themselves. Or start Venmoing their black friends, $5. Okay, I have several. Did you get any Venmos? I got so much money from people.

It's such a weird thing. And I didn't want to be an asshole and return it. I didn't need the money, but I did get a lot of money, hey, you know, from people I didn't know. Right. Or people who were my followers. And I really appreciate the gesture. I think it's a start. Well, it's a strange combination of good intentions met with perhaps confusion.

It's guilt and shame. That's what it is. And so that's one of the stages. There's a podcast called Reply All that does long form stories on weird things that happen on the internet. And they did a whole hour on this very thing, interviewing black people who'd received money

and sharing their experience of what that felt like. I'm like, yeah, I'll just hit up my Patreon. But go ahead, I interrupted you. No, it's okay. But that sending money and the whole blackout Tuesday, all of that is out of guilt and shame. That is one of the stages of white racial identity. of white racial identity, you know, if you're going to eventually travel to doing anti-racism work in your life, right? But again, like if you get stuck there, it's stuck there, it's, it's, um, that's where a lot of the damage occurs. If you even get stuck in the next stage.

By being stuck, you mean, okay, I did my thing. I did my thing. I Venmo'd my friend. Yes, I did my reading. I posted the black square. I'm an ally. That's who I am. I'm going to call myself an ally and I'm not going to do any further work or any examination of my own attitudes and beliefs, which are probably racist.

And so, you know, and then, so as you travel along that spectrum, there is, there's even one, one part of this, one stage that is where you start blaming the victim. and you say things like, well, he shouldn't have been playing loud music in his car. He shouldn't have been using a counterfeit 20. Or Ahmad shouldn't have been running through a construction site. Right. He shouldn't have stopped and looked at this house under construction. He shouldn't have stopped and looked at this house under construction. He shouldn't have done that.

She should have put out her cigarette when the cop asked her to. But did all these people deserve to die because they had a counterfeit $20 bill or they were running? And so that's actually one of those stages. But the thing is that when you can be metacognitive and you can observe yourself having those thoughts and say, oh, I am having this really negative thought that is probably racist and damaging. When you can do that, when you have the ability to see yourself saying those things, feeling those things, and then you can say, well, I don't really believe that. I know that this sort of attitude perpetuates racism. And then you move on to the next stage where you actually start doing something. You do the reading and stuff, and you start really trying to connect with people in the white community, and I'm talking again specifically about white people,

who are trying also to do the work. That's the only way, I think. And you also have to collaborate with people of color. So when you say, I think there's a lot of confusion around what the work is, when you're like, have you done the work? Are you actually doing the work? Like, what does that actually mean? The work is social justice work. All of this is encapsulated under that umbrella where all members of our society have equitable access to all of the resources that we have. And then these resources and this access are ecologically sustainable. So that's what social justice work is. And anti-racism is a part of

social justice work. Because obviously, there are lots of other isms that we have to contend with, with sexism, transphobia, you know, ism. And, you know, so there are lots of other things that to contend with, but, you know, anti-racism is a facet of that. And so if you are saying that you are a person that does the work, you are continually educating yourself, collaborating with people are continually educating yourself, collaborating with people beyond and not centering your own experience while you are doing the work. Meaning, what do you mean not centering your experience? Well, you know, when people center their own experiences, this is actually, it's a part of how lots of conversations get shut down. Again, this is what white fragility is all about. It's all about centering your own experience. Meaning, I don't do that. I see other people are doing that, but I'm not.

Well, I have a black friend, or my husband is black or my wife is black. And so that doesn't happen to me. I don't do that. That doesn't happen to me. It doesn't apply to me. It's a way of shirking responsibility for dealing with the broader problem or unpacking what is in like the systemic imprint of all of this upon our own personal psyches that's so deeply embedded that we're not consciously aware of how it gets manifest in our daily lives. And that's part of what I do. So in the course, we talk about identity.

We talk about how identity is the way in which we experience the world. I mean, that's our framework, our gender, wherever we are on that gender spectrum, our race. All of that informs how we experience the world and how people perceive us, right? You look at me as a black woman, you're gonna have thoughts about what it is I probably do, how I speak.

You probably have thoughts about that. What are you really up to? You know, yeah, why are you here? about what it is I probably do, how I speak. You probably have thoughts about that. What are you really up to? Yeah, why are you here? Why are you at this hotel? And why are you at my gym? I could go on and on. But, you know, I mean, but identity really is that framework. And once you realize that as a white person or as a black person, your world, your experience in life is racialized.

Once you see that, it is mind blowing. Once you see that, it is mind-blowing. And hopefully you are then able to see others' perspectives and to see how they might walk through the world or how they might experience something. And so there's a lot of, you know, when I was— It's broadening your empathy aperture. Broadening, yes, absolutely. You know, when I was— It's broadening your empathy aperture. Broadening, yes, absolutely. You know, when I was talking about my experience running on my own street and someone essentially gaslighting me, saying like, well, you know, obviously somebody was scared because you were holding your walking stick.

And not legitimizing the story that I just told and making it into something else. Or saying, oh, well, that didn't really happen. You know, when we're able to see others' experiences for what they are, there's less gaslighting, there's more legitimizing of my experience, and then hopefully movement away from blaming me for whatever just happened and movement towards what can I do to help? What can I do with my own attitudes? How have I been socialized to believe that you're not supposed to be running on this road?

Let me look into that. There does seem to be an awakening right now, though. There is a crack in this firmament. We're having these conversations. There seems to be a lot of energy going into trying to transcend this systemic situation. But at the same time, we're now, we're at the end of July. There's been some distance between the events that catalyzed everything.

Do you feel like we're perpetuating the momentum and we're in a position to create real change or do you feel like it's waning? Like how are you sensing the moment right now? I think it's all of the above. You know what I mean? Like there was lightning in a bottle for a minute. Do we still have that lightning in the bottle

or are we moving on? Like we did that. I think many of us are moving on. Yeah, we did that. That's over. We're a post-racial society again. But I also think there is still momentum. I still get lots and lots of calls about-

A lot of the Karen activity, the Karen who's in that white SUV is now kind of pivoted to Karen's going crazy about masks. Right, you said it, I didn't. But yeah, I mean, so that's continuing to happen. And really, when you see those videos, it's only white people and white women. Well, just it's white women and white men doing it. You don't see people of color doing that with the whole fake civil liberties issue and wearing masks. on wearing masks. But I think to a certain extent, it is a very ripe time for doing this work and moving ahead.

As I said, I am getting lots of calls to work with companies and that's not what I am used to doing because I think I have a different model as far as the education, That I am used to doing. Because I think I have a different model. As far as the education. The pedagogical spin. That I use to.

Engage people. In thinking about their identities. And how that is the root. Of all of this stuff. Different from. The basic human resources. Kind of model of dealing with this. And I will admit that a lot of the stuff that I did at school was that sort of human resources kind of thing. But obviously it doesn't work.

We need a new model. I mean, it worked for what it needed to work for, but it doesn't really dismantle systemic and institutionalized racism. It doesn't. So, you know, I think that when, I think we have to look at ourselves individually. You know, there, it has to be a multi-pronged approach. You have your, if you are in a business or something like that, or your workplace, it has to come from the top. It also has to come from within. You have to be examining your attitudes, your beliefs, you know, whoever you are, whether you're white, whether you're a person of color, and using that knowledge to further deepen and improve your relationships with other people. Because, you know, there's this whole issue of proximity. Like when you don't have a real relationship with somebody outside of your community, that's where the issues start.

You don't know. Like that lady on the trail, like during the hike, she probably didn't know any black people. And so I was a surprise to her. And so she didn't know how to act. And so she thought I didn't know what I was doing. And so when you don't have relationships with somebody like me or, you know, out on the trail, for example, you're not going to treat me in a way that I feel welcome or treat me like you treat everybody else. that I feel welcome or treat me like you treat everybody else. And I think that that goes for any sort of relationship, whether you're in a workplace, whether you're just your personal relationships, I think proximity is very, very important.

And the more you know yourself and the more you know about other people's identities, the better you are able to relate. So the pedological difference that you're, the place that you're coming from, that that's distinct from the, the typical human resources model is what, like, what is, what are you finding is most effective in terms of getting people to think differently about this and ultimately behave differently? First of all, with racism, you have to be able to name it so

that you can actually see it. Right. And there are all of these different types of racism. And no one, you know, before we didn't want to talk about racism too deeply because it's too heavy. And a lot of people are coming from this colorblind ideology where, you know, we, you know, we are all the same people. We're all part of the human race, which is true. Right. no, we are all the same people. We're all part of the human race, which is true, right? But then when you don't acknowledge that our experiences are racialized and that that's where the problem starts.

And so that was the MO of diversity education, right? But now I think when you start naming racism, you start talking about microaggressions and what they are, what they look like. You start talking about, you know, what overt racism is, you know, that's the sort of KKK, Proud Boys, Boogaloos, like that's that overt racism. And yes, absolutely it happens, but the other kind, covert racism, that's the kind we have to watch out for. And so when you can name that, when you can, you know, again, talk about microaggressions or the colorblindness because that perpetuates racism. And actually people say that they're colorblind because they don't want to look like they're racists. Well, also, I think for somebody of my generation, we were brought up to believe that this is not only is this the aspiration, but to be non-racist

is to be colorblind, right? And that belies the underlying truth that perpetuates racism, which is to acknowledge these differences in order to transcend them. Right. And so you kind of let yourself off the hook when you say that you are colorblind. And I do want to acknowledge that that is a really ableist term. Color evasiveness is probably a better term, but it's not used as widely. But yeah, you let yourself off the hook. When you don't acknowledge that this actually exists and that my experience may be different from yours because I'm black and you are white, then you are absolutely perpetuating racism. Because when you can't see it, when you don't see it, when you choose not to see it, you don't do anything about it. Right. Right. Yeah, I get that. I get that. Yeah, it's a heavy pill to swallow, but I don't think that we get to the other side of it without reckoning with that in a real way.

that you might see. When you say that I'm very articulate, what are you really saying? And when you say that with a sense of surprise and wonder, what are you saying? What is your underlying belief that made you surprised that I'm able to articulate myself in a particular way? This black person sitting across from me is much smarter than I expected because my expectation level is premised upon a base underlying assumption that you're going to be less intelligent. Right. Yeah. That's absolutely what it is.

That's horrible. My kid gets that all the time. And no one wants to think. Yeah, of course. No one wants to believe that they would harbor that even if they're doing it unconsciously. But if you can see that in yourself, and I know that when I mentioned that particular thing in my course and people, I can see people's body language because maybe they have said that at one point to somebody who is black. That is the prime learning opportunity right there

because it's really uncomfortable. And I focus on, I was like, look, this is uncomfortable work. I'm not going to outright call you a racist because I don't know who you are. I'm not going to say that. But if you can realize and acknowledge that some of the beliefs that you have or that you've been socialized with are based on racist assumptions and stereotypes, then we can actually move or move forward rather. So it's really interesting to see that process happening. I do get questions. I actually don't allow questions while I'm presenting. Well, I saw you posted that thread.

You said you posted that. You like reposted somebody who had posted a thread of the questions to ask in the midst of this kind of training to disrupt the curriculum. Right. And I'm the boss, so I can decide how I want my course, but because a lot of times it derails the work. A lot of times people will want to argue for argument's sake or play the devil's advocate. It's bad faith obfuscation to try to derail you. Yeah. And so I'm not doing it.

This is my course. I developed it. You asked me, you came to me and you paid me to educate you. So that's what I'm going to do. And so, yeah. And it's great to kind of lay these really heavy things down and allow people to process it in pairs, in breakout sessions on Zoom, which is a really cool feature, I think. Because people need time to really relate the conceptual stuff to their own lives. Here's a definition of racism.

Here's a definition of microaggressions. Where have you seen that in your lives? Have you seen it happening to other people? Has a microaggression occurred in your own life? As a woman, has someone said to you, you're strong for a woman or you're fast for a woman? Those are all things that we hear constantly and they come at us. They just come at us all the time and they have a cumulative negative effect. And so once people can see that, whether we were talking about gender or class, when you can actually see that

and name it, then you can do something about it. It's got to be an uphill battle, though, when you're doing this. It's one thing to do it for people who are going out of their way to sign up for it and pay for it, but if you're coming into a corporation and you're in front of a group of people who are employees who've just been told like you have to do this, like that they didn't necessarily volunteer for it or wanna be there and they're leaning back. Oh yeah, you know, leaning back, like resentful that they have to be there in the first place in order to really, you know,

penetrate that kind of psyche and get them to grok where you're coming from. You're going to have to get them to put their guard down a little bit. But here's, yeah, there's that. But I also think that people who think they are not racist and who are liberals and progressives, that's the community I want to work with because I think that's where a lot of the danger lies. When you think you are not perpetuating racism. Yeah, elaborate on that. Because that's a lot of people. I mean, look at the Cooper lady in Central Park. Right. The Hillary Clinton supporting.

The Hillary Clinton Obama supporting woman who then turns and tries to get this black man arrested. We all saw the video. We saw the video. I mean, that's exactly what that is. The guy who's on the board of the Audubon Society, the Harvard grad. Christian Cooper. Yeah. I believe the lady's name is Rebecca Cooper, maybe.

But yeah, but that's precisely the type of person. Right, they have the same last name. That I would like to work with. Right. People who, you know, they have given money to all of the progressive liberal things and they think that they are post-racial and they're actually not. That's the kind of people I want to work with. The people who are-

So that person sitting in front of you, how do you begin to deconstruct their identity around this? We go through a variety of exercises. I have to always define. I try to make sure that I define what these things are. We define identity. We define what social justice work is. And then we go through here.

Race is an identity. Gender is an identity. Sexual preference or sexual orientation, that's an identity. We go through all of that so they can see that all of these things, all of these aspects of who you are, you know, inform the way you walk through the world. And so I asked them to look at a part of their identity before we start talking about race

and really examine where they have been privileged with this particular identity and how this identity offers disadvantage. So we talk about privilege and disadvantage. And then it really gets them thinking about, oh, well, you know, I'm a woman. And so a lot of times people think I am not strong or that I am bossy when a man would be seen as assertive. So in other words, you're trying to get them to identify with some analog of that experience in their own life. And to be really conversant in the language. I think that is very, very important to know what those things are. Because again, when you name it, you can know it, right? And you can see it. It's just all this political correctness. But political correctness is really aimed at people not being assholes and thinking before they speak, thinking before they act. That's what that is.

I mean, and it takes energy and effort. Yeah. But I like that approach because the alternative is saying you think you're a good person and you do all these things that are civic-minded, but you're actually not a good person. Well, I'm not telling people that they're bad people. I know, I know. But that's how it will be received, right? And then immediately that person is going to shut down. But here's where pedagogy comes in. So you give them opportunities to practice on the thing that you're not talking about yet, right?

You give them opportunities to practice with gender, to practice with socioeconomic. What if you're a white dude like me? Right? Yes. But there are tons of aspects of identity. I mean, we have, in addition to race, ethnicity, we've got your regional background. That's a part of your identity. Body image is a part of your identity because that is very culturally informed.

Did I say class? Class. You know, how does your class privilege you? How does it disadvantage you? The way your body looks. How does that privilege you? How does it disadvantage you? The way your body looks. How does that privilege you? How does that disadvantage you? Your leisure activities.

What does that say about how you are privileged in life? What does it say about your lack of access to leisure activities? What does that say about your class, about where you live, about your access to leisure? And so there are all these different things, your family structure. A lot of times, I've been married for 20 years, so a lot of people don't know that. And it looks like a traditional family from the outside, but we're not traditional. But your family structure might privilege you or disadvantage you. A lot of people thought that I was a single mom. They probably still think I'm a single mom because my husband is not on social media. And so people are going to have a particular reaction to me thinking that I am a single mom.

You know, maybe she's one of those black ladies that just, whatever, didn't want to get married or whatever. I get a lot of that. That sort of attitude. Or the husband and the dad split. Yeah, where's the baby daddy? That sort of thing. And so the way you speak, your accent, that is a part of your identity, the language you speak. That is a part of your identity, the language you speak.

My husband is West African, so he speaks with a Francophone French accent. And people will have a particular reaction. You know, they'll slow their speech down and get louder because they think that he doesn't understand them. And so all of those things affect the way you are, the way people look at you, the way they react with you, the way they react to you or interact with you. And so you're from Maryland, right? Maryland. Michigan originally. Michigan originally.

I grew up in Maryland. You grew up in Maryland, right? But I grew up in Maryland. You grew up in Maryland, right? And so- But I grew up in Bethesda. Bethesda, right? I was born in Grosse Pointe, Michigan. I grew up upper middle class and then upper class, basically. I come from a privileged background and I'm a white dude. And I've gone through my life aware of that privilege, but not to the extent that you're speaking of.

Like I haven't thought about it as broadly as I should have. Right. And so, yeah, so all of these things, and well, now somebody who's been in recovery for a long time and who's been in therapy forever, like I feel, you know, fairly equipped to do the introspective part of this. And I know how to take, you me, but I'm probably better suited to doing that kind of stuff than a lot of people who haven't had the privilege to have some of those experiences where they've been compelled to look inward in a way that I have.

So I don't know what that means, but I think recognizing that the work is hard too, is important. It's hard for me. I mean, like it is so hard. What about in your mind, like how does social media play into all of this? There's great things about it and terrible things. It's being weaponized for villainous purposes, but it's also cast a spotlight on these issues in a unique way that we haven't seen in the history of humanity. And I just know that I can

find myself paralyzed wanting to say the right thing or being part of the solution. You're smiling and yet feeling like, do I really wanna hit publish on this? Like what's gonna happen? Did I get this right? Am I wrong?

Where's that fear coming from? Why do I feel that way? Should I not care? Do you understand this thing? Like what's going on with this? So much. Social media absolutely plays, I think, both a positive and negative part, or a negative role in all of this. And I think that the big social media companies, Facebook, Instagram, Twitter, the other ones, TikTok.

Am I missing any? There's more. MySpace. Go ahead. Friendster. Throwbacks. I think they have a huge responsibility. And number one, figuring out, like, is this the world that we want to be in?

Number one, figuring out, like, is this the world that we want to be in? Are we going to be the ones who enable racism to continue happening or sexism or, you know, with the whole, like, Gamergate, for example? You know, that just continues to go on and on and on and, you know, all in the name of free speech. But what is free speech really? Like, what is it? Is it, you know, are we going to continue to denigrate people of certain races or sexes or genders or whatever? Are we going to continue to let that happen in the name of free speech? You know, are we going to continue to endanger the lives of people who are black, who are people of color, who are women, who are trans? And I think social media plays a huge part in that because look at what's happening with misinformation spreading on the various platforms.

We're puppets in this massive experiment in humanity. And I don't think that we're outfitted to really navigate it as consciously as we should. They're completely unregulated. These companies are, you know, some better than others trying to figure out how to get their heads around how to better, you know, create a healthier environment for global conversation. But we're not doing a very good job. You know what I mean? And I think it's also making us aware of how easily manipulated we are when information campaigns are targeted in a specific way to get us to behave and think in a very specific way. And we haven't really figured out a solution for this. And yet it continues to grow and expand and become more and more a part of our lives. Yeah, and it's really scary.

It's especially scary. And we're both beneficiaries of these platforms. Absolutely, thank you, everybody. Thank you, Instagram. Which creates another layer of like weirdness, right? It is really weird. I'm participating in this thing, I'm benefiting from it, but it's also problematic. But you're trying to participate in a way that gives back and that gives good stuff to people, right? I'm trying. Yeah. And I think that I would

say that of myself also. I am not trying to, number one, spread misinformation. I'm definitely not trying to be racist or sexist or homophobic or what have you or classist. But then there are entities that are out there trying to do that. The QAnon, hello. They're finally trying to crack down on the QAnon. Finally, finally. How long did that take? Finally. How long did that take? And speaking of being in a really weird space, I just participated on this Facebook panel for community leaders.

I have a very large community on Facebook called Fat Girl Running. It's amazing. You don't have to be fat to join. And they really wanted to uplift black community – Facebook group community leaders. And it was a phenomenal discussion sponsored by Facebook, utilizing Facebook tools. That's the world that I want to be in. But then you have the other side. But then you square that with their ad revenue model and what they're allowing to take place there. with their ad revenue model and what they're allowing to take place there. And it doesn't, it almost feels like they're doing that to distract you from what they're really doing. What their business is really premised upon. And it's confusing when campaign advertising

is just a drop in the bucket of how they make their money. And it would be so easy for them to say, we're dispensing with that. And it really wouldn't affect their bottom line or their P&L. Yeah. So the question is, what is really behind that? I mean, I don't know. It's a rhetorical question, but maybe it's not a rhetorical question. What is behind the fact that they won't end that? And by you doing that panel, it just gives you a warm, fuzzy feeling. It does. You know, I'm like, oh, Facebook all the way.

But yeah, but I don't forget. I mean, there is a huge cognitive dissonance there where, you know, you have that part of Facebook, that really sort of dark part of Facebook. But then all of the good stuff. And I, you know,, but then all of the good stuff. And I'm going to keep doing the good stuff. It's never going to be balanced. There's always going to be the dark matter to contend with.

But I think that's the way the world works. Even though there's a lot of dark stuff, there's a lot of heavy stuff, we have to – I think that if you have joy to exude, then you should. If you have good things to give, then you should. Maybe we won't win. But we should still do it. There is something to be said for the power of the camera that we all have in our pocket and the fact that so many of these incidents that have created the upheaval were documented on video

and shared on social media platforms that catalyzed this conversation. There's a cascade effect where that leads to backlash and a lot of anger and all the other things that we're seeing at the same time, but we can't extract social media from the current state of affairs with respect to the civil rights movement, right? Those things are completely integrated in a way

that I think is new and there's certainly benefits to that as well. And it's the way that this generation operates. you think about digital natives and like that is the way that they live. You think of my son, you know, who does everything online. What's his thing? Is TikTok his thing, Snapchat? No, TikTok is for young people, he thinks. Do you have a TikTok account? I do not have a TikTok account.

My daughters told me that I was not allowed to get a TikTok account. I'm also not allowed to. I was not allowed to get a TikTok account. I'm also not allowed to. I was not allowed to have Snapchat. I had that for a while and my daughters were not happy. I haven't used it in forever. And yeah, it's a really interesting thing, an interesting way that they live now. Everything is online and that's how

they communicate with one another. Well, it's creating a whole new language. I mean, my daughters communicate on TikTok, not through, like they'll make videos that are shared publicly that are in a weird way, like communications with their friends that only they can decode. It's so strange. Yeah, my son makes – his big thing is making gaming commentary videos. And I have not seen any of these. Does he do this? I hear him.

Does he stream like a game? He doesn't stream. Well, he'll play the game and then he, I don't actually really know what he does. But he has a whole setup in his room with a lot of computers and mics and stuff. And then I hear him creating sound bites because that's what they do. And then commenting on various people playing games and there's a lot of cursing. Um, and, um, it's apparently it is, you will not allow me to see any of the videos because he says that they are cringeworthy. Um, and so, but you know, that's, that's a way of being for him and, uh, whether or not he's communicating with other people. I don't know.

But yeah. The world is moving fast, Myrna. Yeah. It is. It is. I'm still on Facebook and Instagram. Maybe I'll be dancing on TikTok. Who knows? Right. All right. So let's go back to allyship. What does it look like to you for someone like myself to be a good white ally? I wish we could get rid of the word ally. Let's get rid of it then. What should it be called? Be an advocate and do the work. That's what it looks like. It looks like you doing what you do now, asking questions of yourself, evaluating your behavior, your actions, your attitudes, your thoughts all the time. It's really, really tiring. But that's what you have to do if you want to continue doing the work, if you want to be an anti-racist, if you want to call yourself someone who is an advocate.

I think ally is a term that's been diluted. So I think a better way to think of doing this work is advocacy, advocacy for other people. I like transcending some of these words. Yeah, like body positivity. That's another word that I can't stand. Yeah, yeah, yeah. When I was getting ready for today, I read an article.

I was poking around the internet to see what was new with you that I might not have come across previously. And there was a woman who wrote an article that was titled something like, body positivity isn't enough, we need inclusivity. And it was premised upon her being mistaken for you. Did you see this? Was it Latoya? I can't remember. I don't know. Or Latriagram. Yeah. We get confused all the time.

But it was interesting because it was all about like, because you're, you know, the moniker that gets attached to you is, oh, she's the body positivity person. But it's really, it's about moving past that to something bigger and broader. Right. You can say that. I believe all bodies are good bodies. You can say that, but do you really believe that? And are you going to welcome that person? Are you going to welcome like, I am considered a small fat. considered a small fat. There are all these names for differently sized fat people. There's super fat and there's some other types of fat people. But to a certain extent, my kind of fatness is

acceptable. But then anyone who's bigger than I am in a lot of the body positive community is not seen as acceptable. So like the term body positivity, like what does it even mean? The striations of the body positivity community. All bodies are good bodies or are only certain bodies good bodies. And so that's why I try not to use the term anymore. I do prefer to use inclusion because you include more and more people into your sphere, whether it's body positivity, whether it's, you know, whether we're talking about

combating and dismantling racism. When you're giving your talks or you're going to all these races when there wasn't COVID, do you bifurcate the diversity training part of your brain and your advocacy from Myrna, the Myrnavator, the runner, the inclusivity on the trails person? Or are these all – do you think of these things? It's all wrapped up into one sort of thing. Because when I get hired to speak, you know, I, all of the various things that I do and that I'm about, I mean, that's what I do, you know? So if you invite me to speak and chances are you inviting me to speak to, to either talk about diversity in the outdoors or to talk about, you know, I give a thing called, a workshop called Passion Forward, where I speak on your work being a reflection of your core values. And my core values, and I present my core values, my core values are joy, adventure, community, and inclusion. That's everything I am.

And I think that permeates. Anytime I do a workshop, that sentiment of my core values permeate every single word that I say. I like that. I like the clarity on your core values. It took me a long time to get there. What was that process like? Well, because people kept asking me about my brand. What? I'm not a company.

That's a weird thing, isn't it? What's your brand? What's your brand? And then as I started looking into what a brand is, there was a lot of talk about core values and guiding principles. I was like, oh, I can get with that. I know what my core values are. And then I had to, I was at an event that I wasn't supposed to be speaking at. And all of a sudden, I was called to speak in place of someone who couldn't make their workshop. And so I had to develop a workshop in 24 hours on something career related. And so I'm really good at this.

Oh, you want me to speak in 20 minutes? Okay. Do you have any idea of what you want me? Okay. I got it. I got it. Done. So that's what I did. Well what you want? Okay. I got it. I got it. Done. So that's what I did. So I came up with this whole- Well, that's from decades of being an educator, I would imagine. That would make me panic.

I wouldn't be able to do that. Yeah. I mean, had it been a few years before, I would have panicked because this is a new community to me. This is a fancy REI type outdoor community that I had to do this in front of. And so I said, okay, well, I'm very happy that I was a teacher and I know how to do that. I know how to put together a lesson plan and, you know, have some learning goals and some experiential stuff in there. And so that's what I did. And I said, well, you know, I can talk about my transition from being a teacher to doing what I do now and how I achieved – how I was able to leave teaching and still kind of maintain some integrity about who I am and this new thing that I do. And then I came up with those four things as sort of my guiding principles in the couple of hours that I had before I had to do this, this presentation. And so as I, you know, I've refined it a little bit. And cause I had,

there were some other things that were my core values, but those, those are the four that really, really speak to me and, and, and are really present in everything that I do. So. Yeah. And are you still doing the, you've got these running retreats, the slow as fuck running retreats? Did you actually do these or did they get, did you? I did, I absolutely did. That's like the best name ever for a running retreat.

You know, over and over again. Because it's like, oh, all the fear that people have, like I can't do a running retreat. It immediately tears down a wall. Right. Oh, well, I think I can do that. I can, you know. I'm slow as fuck. Right, like, I can't do a running retreat. It immediately tears down a wall. Right. Oh, well, I think I can do that. I can, you know. I'm slow as fuck.

Right, exactly. Exactly. And so, and that. Where did you, what are those about? Where do you do those? Okay, so, so yes, they are called slow as fuck trail running adventures. And I created them specifically to serve a community that is made up of runners. Some of them are plus-size runners. Some of them are not.

But everybody's slow. And by slow, I mean we don't run 10-minute miles. What if you're fast and you want to go? And I tell people, I said, this is not for you. This is not the experience for you. Because we're going to you want to go. And I tell people, I said, this is not for you. This is not the experience for you. Because we're going to be on the trails. We will run. We will walk.

We will take selfies. We will have a picnic. It'll be a whole day thing. This is not competitive. You should not consider this as training because we're just going to play it by ear. And yes, pick daisies. We're gonna play it by ear. Yeah, play it by ear. And yes, pick daisies, smell them. We're going to climb mountains. We're gonna do some sort of reflection work

and we're having a good time. So yeah, like- How many people? The very first one I did was 22 people, which was a lot of people. Do you just do it in your backyard trails or do you go somewhere? Well, no, I rent a house somewhere and that's near a lot of trails. And yeah, and I bring people in.

I contract a lot of people in to do yoga, meditation. I had Roz Mays, who's a pole dancer come in and do some sensual movement without a pole. Just so that, and with the goal being that people begin to get more comfortable in their own bodies and in the space that they inhabit and they transfer that out onto the trails and hopefully in the rest of their lives. And so, so that was fun. And so, yeah, so that's what we do. Another thing that I'm good at is bringing people in to create like a really fantastic experience that just is not only centered on me because, you know, I can- People who can talk about other stuff, do give presentations, stuff like that. Yeah, that are fun, that are engaging. So

I did my first virtual, it wasn't called Slow As Fuck. It was Love Your Body. Love Your Body and Run virtual retreat. And so we did that and had some of the same people do. Like Roz did her sensual movement on Zoom. You know, we read and we did some writing. We did talk about body image in that. And then the beginning of the day

and the end of the day were reserved for running. And every run was prompted. So you always had a prompt from the writing teacher that was there that you'd be able to think about on your run. Right, so they're like theme-based. I like that, that's cool. Yeah, that's the teacher in me.

Yeah, when do you think we're gonna be able to get back to doing stuff with people in person again? Maybe the end of next year. I don't think it's going to be anytime soon. I know. Do you have Zoom fatigue? Oh, absolutely. Sometimes. Jesus.

I'm on Zoom a lot. And everyone wants to meet now. Everyone, you know, what used to be a phone call. Right. Now we have to, it used to be a phone call. Right. Now we have to, it always has to be on video. Or a FaceTime. I don't know. No, not at eight o'clock in the morning anyway.

I know. I know. And sometimes I just, I will just turn my video off. I'm like, I didn't, this could have been a phone call. I find it very draining. It is. Because you always have to smile. You're always on.

My face hurts after every single Zoom. Yeah. Or Microsoft Teams or whatever platform they're using. But that is definitely tiring. But I think people really are hungry for interaction and connection with human beings outside of their homes. Yeah. Yeah. I know. I mean, I don't know.

I just, this is like my one outlet where I get to be with people. And other than that, I'm just at home aside from the occasional grocery store visit. And it's definitely, you know, I thought at the beginning of this whole coronavirus pandemic stay atat-home thing, like I'm kind of an introvert. You know, basically I like to stay at home anyway. I go trail running by myself.

My life isn't that different. But, you know, even for somebody like me who I feel like I've been training my whole life for this, like I'm gonna be totally fine. It really has created like this melancholy that's I think going to be, you know, I think we're gonna see a lot of mental health issues. You know, we're already starting to see it, but you know, long-term and what is it, what is the impact on young people?

You know, I have a 16 year old daughter and a 13 year old daughter, like these are Corona kids. Like what is 20 years from now? What is the imprint of this experience on how they think about life and what their experience is going to be? Right. I worry about my kid who, um, who's extremely independent. Uh, and I mean, to a fault. And, um, you know, the first couple of weeks that we were in lockdown, these kids not afraid of anything. But like in the middle of the night, heard the wind knocking on the window and got freaked out. And I was like, OK, please check in on your kids. Because it was out of character.

And I ran into my room. He was like, what's that? And so I was like, oh, whoa, this is weird because nothing wakes him up ever. But clearly he was having some anxiety about something and about not being able to – we travel a lot as a family, not being able to travel, not being able to go outside without fearing getting sick. He wouldn't go to the supermarket for a very long time. Yeah.

What is the psychological implication of just being afraid to be in the presence of another human being? Right. And it's because they're in this truly formative part of their development as teenagers. And so whatever happened, whatever happens now is going to stick with, with everybody, but like particularly, you know, their brains are still developing, you know, that prefrontal cortex is not finished growing yet. And so, you know, I'm sure that there are, you know,

some genetic imprints happening now because of coronavirus and lockdown and not being able to do the things that teenagers should be doing. It would be an interesting sociological experiment to look at the kids who went through the 1918 pandemic and to see what kind of culture was like 20, 30 years later and how that impacted like choices that they made. Cause there's gotta be a corollary there and something we can learn from that, from looking at that. I don't know. Ooh, deep stuff. Yeah.

Is there a difference living in, I mean, Vermont's pretty progressive place, I would suspect compared to Georgia. Yeah, like it's got to be different for you. Vermont is magical. I loved where I lived. I mean like where I lived in Georgia, but I adore Vermont. I mean it is for the part, very progressive and liberal.

I mean, I'm very left-leaning. So, I mean, it's kind of the perfect place for me to be, even though it is, I think, the third whitest state in the country. But I definitely, I feel fairly safe. I live, everybody knows where I live. And where my son lives. Why does everyone know where you live? Because, well, I live on a very, I live on Main Street. And I see everything and everyone passes through Main Street.

And I see everything and everyone passes through Main Street. And now that we've been home, you know. Yeah. When I started living there, I was still traveling a lot. And so I would come for like two or three days. What does your son do when you're gone? He is, my son is into culinary. Uh-huh. And we call him GRTB for Gordon Ramsay the Black.

Okay. Because he's obsessed with Gordon Ramsay and also culinary. So he, right now, he's actually right now having a cooking lesson with one of my friends. Oh, wow. He's learning how to use- He didn't come on this trip here though. No, because he didn't want to. I said, hey, we're going, because he didn't want to.

I said, hey, we're going to be staying at a nice hotel. And no, I'm just going to enjoy the fact that I'm the only one using the bathroom. So, yeah, again, very independent, very self-sufficient, loves cooking and loves playing basketball. So he's found a friend that plays basketball with him in Montpelier. And, you know, he's having a good time. He really likes it. And, like, I don't worry about him. And actually Montpelier has a new police chief who is black. We'll see what that means.

a new police chief who is black. We'll see what that means. But people are very, you know, people are very interested in social justice and they work actively towards it. Not everybody, but a lot of people do. And there's a lot of discussion and conversation. discussion and conversation. After we had our Black Lives Matter protests in Montpelier, the number of people who said hi to me as I was running on the rec path or people honking their horn, hey. I'm like, you can always be nice to black people. I mean, that's kind of like the Venmo

thing, right? A little bit. It is. It is. And even for me, it's like, okay, you know, I reached out to you for you to come back on the podcast. So that's, is that really that different? You know, because I was like, oh, I knew you were a diversity teacher. You know, we had a rapport from last time and I was like, oh, you'll be great to come and talk to you. But we actually know each other and we've had conversations. But I found myself thinking, is she going to think that like, because I said the same thing to a friend of mine the other day. I was like, oh, so, you know, every black person's phone's ringing off the hook now, right? Well, it's true.

Yeah. And so, and I did that. I reached out to you for you to come back on and I'm thinking, well, Myrna, I think that's weird, you know, weird. No, I think that's part of like- I have this skill. So I think that for me, I saw the importance in exercising this muscle that I have in terms of diversity, equity, and inclusion at this time, but not for everybody. Because a lot of people did reach out, hey, can you talk about this or that when we don't have any previous relationship or because they don't know any other black people. So I've had to be very judicious about choosing when and where I speak and with whom. Right.

Because it is overwhelming. Did some of your sponsors reach out to you for help trying to figure out how to communicate around this? Yes. Yes. Yeah. I hope you charge them for that. Because this is like a big, it's very important how they configure their, you know, corporate communication around this issue that's so fraught at the moment, right? Like that's a very valuable service. I've definitely said that I can't solve your company's problems, whatever they might be in terms of systemic racism or structural racism within the company. But what I can do is I can talk to your people and give them some tools and strategies for educating themselves and for examining their own attitudes. Because, I mean, that spills over into your work and your personal life, right? Because, I mean, that spills over into your work and your personal life, right?

So you will need to hire somebody else to deal with that higher HR level type of thing. Or the like, is this Instagram post okay? Right. So, yeah, I don't do that. But what I do is the interpersonal stuff. And so, yes, I've definitely – I have some large clients. You're smiling. Good. You should. Which I will tell you off the air. I have some large clients. Good, you should. Which I will tell you off the air. I mean, you're perfectly suited for that.

You know, you have the experience. This is what you do. Well, you know what? And I'm really grateful, but it's also like, it's very necessary work. And, you know, if I can give to the movement in this one specific way, then I'm going to continue to do it. All right. Well, let's land this plane.

But I can't let you go without getting a gauge on. Are you optimistic? I am extremely optimistic. Good. But my optimism is definitely rooted in reality. My optimism is definitely rooted in reality. So like, you know, I use, you know, what's going on now, the awfulness of the situation or situations that we are in now. And I use that to sort of fill myself with hope because I know that things can be better.

I know that things have been better. They can be better again. But we have to do the work in order for that to happen. And so that's why I do what I do. So if someone's listening to this and this is like their initiation into thinking about this a little bit more deeply than they have, where does that person begin? If they can't, you know, be privy to your training or like, where do you direct those people?

I think you should be reading. I think reading is really good. You know, you doing all of the, you know, looking through all the checklists. 25 resources for anti-racism. Yeah, there's a lot of those getting circulated around. I think that's important. I think it's a very, very important starting point. But I also think that you should, and it's difficult now, but you need to broaden your circle. You need to have, you need to be proximate to different kinds of people

and start embracing their various identities. You know, examine your own, examine the way in which you were socialized, and then see other people, see others' identities, embrace them, welcome them into your life. I think that's the way to go. Hmm. Thanks for coming here today. It's my pleasure. It's always. It was fun. You're always welcome here, Myrna. Thank you. Thanks.

Good luck with the surgery in three weeks? At the end of August. End of August. Yeah. What's the rehab plan for that? How long before you're back out there? We'll start PT immediately the day after. This is an arthroscopic thing.

At Stay on the Bike. I got some bike things coming up. A potential bike sponsor. Oh, shameless shout out. You know where to reach her. Oh, I already got one and it works. Okay, good. All right. Awesome. And yeah, and I, as soon as I can, but I'm not going to push it. I'm not going to force it. I'm going to let my body heal. Because literally, there are no races until January and that might not even happen. So I'm just going to let myself

heal. If I need to keep hiking and cycling for longer, then I'm going to keep doing that. I mean, I still get to be outside and I'm in Vermont. I can stand on a paddleboard, even though I hate that. I can do some climbing if I wanted to. I could swim in a lake. So I'm good. Cool. Yeah. All right. If you want to learn more about Myrna, check out the show notes on the episode page. I'll link up a bunch of stuff, including a bunch of the resources that we were talking about earlier. Definitely, we didn't even talk about your book. We talked about it last time, but A Beautiful Work in Progress, which is a beautiful book.

You did an amazing job on that book. I highly suggest everybody check that out. You can listen to our earlier conversation, which I'll link up in the show notes as well. And you're pretty easy to find on the internet at the Mernovator basically, right? Yes. All right, cool. Thanks so much. Enjoy the rest of your stay here.

Thank you. All right, we did that and it was good. Hope you guys enjoyed that. She's just so lovely. What an incredible human being. My only regret from this conversation is that I didn't compel her or ask her to sing opera at the end

like I did at the end of our first conversation, episode 340. Go check that out if you missed it the first time. She has an incredible Juilliard-trained voice. And after the podcast, I was like, oh, I forgot to ask you to do it. And she said, oh, I was ready to do it. I was warming up and I was prepared to sing. So anyway, again, my only regret. But that aside, I thought that was amazing. Hope you guys enjoyed it as

well. Please give Myrna a shout out on the socials. Let her know how this one landed for you. She's at The Myrnavator on both Instagram and Twitter. We also have another Roll On AMA coming up this week. So if you would like your question answered, leave us a voicemail at 424-235-4626, or you can drop it on our Facebook group page. If you'd like to support the work we do here on the show, subscribe, rate, and comment on it on Apple Podcasts, on Spotify, and on YouTube.

Share the show or your favorite episodes with friends or on social media. I love seeing the screen grabs and little videos that people share, and I tend to spread them around from time to time. So thank you for that. And you can support us on Patreon at richroll.com forward slash donate. Thanks to everybody who helps put on this show week in, week out. Jason Camiolo for audio engineering, production, show notes, and interstitial music. Blake Curtis for videoing today's show. Jessica Miranda for graphics.

Allie Rogers for portraits. DK for advertiser relationships and theme music by Annalema. Thanks for the love, you guys. See you back here in a couple days with another Roll On AMA. Until then, be well, get outside, try to experience a little bit of joy, and maybe think a little bit more profoundly and deeply about body inclusion, diversity, and uncovering our own unconscious beliefs. Peace. Plants. Namaste. Thank you.