The Rich Roll Podcast - Music Mogul Jason Flom On Reforming Criminal Justice & Resurrecting Rock ‘N Roll

Episode Date: November 16, 2018

Today I sit down with music industry titan Jason Flom for a deep dive into what currently ails our criminal justice system, and how to fix it. The current CEO of LAVA Records, Jason's much storied career features stints as Chairman and CEO at Atlantic Records, Virgin Records and Capitol Music Group. He is personally responsible for launching a litany of massive acts, including Kid Rock, Katy Perry, Lorde, and most recently Greta Van Fleet. The New Yorker described him as “one of the most successful record men of the past 20 years…known for his specialty in delivering ‘monsters.” Jason's accomplishments in the recording industry are extraordinary. But it's his commitment to criminal justice justice reform that compelled this conversation. A founding board member of The Innocence Project as well as a board member of several advocacy organizations devoted to drug reform, prison education and ant-recidivism, Jason is a leading civilian expert on clemency with a talent for procuring exonerations for those wrongfully convicted. A sought-after public speaker on such matters, Jason also hosts the Wrongful Conviction podcast, which features mesmerizing interviews with men and women who have spent decades in prison for crimes they did not commit. A means of exposing what ails our current justice system and prison industrial complex, his goal is to promote alternatives to mass incarceration and offer ideas on how to reduce the indecencies of wrongful convictions. Although I have followed Jason’s work for years, I had never met nor heard him speak until our paths crossed at The Nantucket Project a few months back. At the conclusion of his riveting, standing-room-only presentation alongside Amanda Knox — the exchange student who spent almost 4 years in an Italian prison following a murder conviction Jason played a part in having overturned — there wasn’t a dry eye in the house. I knew immediately I wanted to share his story and work with all of you. Today is that day. This is a compelling exchange about what ails our criminal justice system and how to fix it. It’s about systemic inequities and the recurring issue of false confessions — why so many innocent people plead guilty. We discuss the impact of DNA testing technology, overcoming prosecutorial malfeasance, and how unaffordable bail exacerbates social inequality. But mostly, this is a conversation about how misaligned incentives often produce unjust results and why Jason is so committed to giving a voice to those wrongfully incarcerated. But I couldn’t let him go without a peek into his legendary music career. Stories from the frontlines, he recounts how he discovered Lorde, the current state of rock and roll, and his new venture, aptly titled, The Church of Rock and Roll. My hope is that this conversation will provoke a deeper sense of empathy for those that suffer. Motivate you to investigate these issues more thoroughly. And inspire you to get involved in forging solutions. Peace + Plants, Rich

I'm a person who believes in a system of law and order. I'm not an anarchist. I grew up respecting the uniform, and I think that the majority, the overwhelming majority of police, prosecutors, and people in the system are good people who mean well. They may make mistakes, but they don't make them intentionally. Everyone makes mistakes. Doctors make mistakes. You know, everyone makes mistakes.

But prosecutors, there are some bad actors, and they do incredible amounts of damage. you know, everyone makes mistakes. But prosecutors, there are some bad actors, and they do incredible amounts of damage. When there's a high-profile crime and there's a media frenzy, it increases the pressure on the authorities to solve it. And mistakes are made at every level, honest mistakes. You also have, you know, the possibility that somebody on the stand, like in making a murder, could be lying.

And so you have to pay attention because it's somebody's child up there. It's somebody's mother or father. It's somebody's life. That's Jason Flom. And this is The Rich Roll Podcast. The Rich Roll Podcast. Hey, people. Great to be back with you, spending a little time with you here today. My name is Rich Roll. I am your host. Welcome or welcome back to the podcast where I have the great fortune of sharing long-form conversations that matter.

At least I hope they matter. I think they matter at least a little bit. With all manner of great leading minds committed to making the world a better place. A quick reminder that I've set an ambitious goal to raise $100,000 for Charity Water to help them bring clean water to approximately 3,300 people

who currently lack such access. Right now, as of the date of me recording this, we're at about $32,000, which is unbelievable, but still a very long way to go. So I'm asking that you consider donating to this most worthy cause of solving our global water crisis. Together, we can do amazing things. So to learn more and to give, go to my.charitywater.org forward slash richroll. And of course, I'll put a link up in the show notes to that URL. Today, my guest is Jason Flom. Jason is a music industry veteran. He is the current CEO of Lava Records. And over the course of his very storied career, Jason has served as chairman and CEO at Atlantic Records, Virgin Records,

and Capitol Music Group. He is personally responsible for launching a litany of absolutely monster musical acts, including Kid Rock, Katy Perry, Lorde, one of my personal favorites, and most recently, a rock band called Greta Van Fleet. But what compelled me to get Jason on the show isn't so much his music career as it is his philanthropic work, his commitment to social causes. In particular, his championing of criminal justice reform. And on this front, he is a founding board member of the Innocence Project, as well as a board member of several advocacy organizations, all devoted to everything from drug reform to prison education, anti-recidivism, and so much more. Jason is a leading civilian expert on clemency, and his sweet spot is really procuring

exonerations for those wrongfully convicted. In other words, working to free innocent people unlawfully imprisoned. In addition to being a sought-after public speaker on such matters, Jason also hosts the Wrongful Conviction podcast, which features unbelievably compelling interviews with men and women who have spent decades in prison for crimes they didn't commit. And Jason's goal with this is really to elucidate the broader issues at play and promote alternatives to what ails our current justice system and prison industrial complex. The conversation is heavy, it's provocative, it's super informative. The details of which I'll get into in a minute.

into in a minute. We're brought to you today by recovery.com. I've been in recovery for a long time. It's not hyperbolic to say that I owe everything good in my life to sobriety. And it all began with treatment and experience that I had that quite literally saved my life. And in the many years since, I've in turn helped many suffering addicts and their loved ones find treatment. And with that, I know all too well just how confusing and how overwhelming and how challenging it can be to find the right place and the right level of care, especially because unfortunately, not all treatment resources adhere to ethical practices. It's a real problem. A problem I'm now happy and proud to share has been solved by the people at recovery.com who created an online support portal designed to guide, to support, and empower you to find the ideal level

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I really do. And they have treatment options for you. Life in recovery is wonderful. And recovery.com is your partner in starting that journey. When you or a loved one need help, go to recovery.com and take the first step towards recovery. To find the best treatment option for you or a loved one, again, go to recovery.com. Okay, we got through that. We did it. So, Jason Flom. I followed Jason's work for a number of years, but I'd never met him. I'd never heard him speak until a couple months ago when I was at the Nantucket Project, and I was witness to this presentation that he made in a church before a

packed standing room only crowd alongside Amanda Knox, who many of you may know quite famously was the exchange student who spent almost four years in an Italian prison following a murder conviction that Jason played a part in having overturned. And at the end of that hour, that presentation, I can tell you there was not a dry eye in the church. And I knew immediately that I wanted to share Jason's story and his work with all of you. So when I was in New York City a couple months ago, I made a point of getting together with Jason. I made it a priority, and so here we are. I think it's fair to say that this is a quite compelling exchange about what ails our criminal justice system as well as how to fix it.

It's about systemic inequality, the recurring issue of false confessions, the impact of DNA testing technology, prosecutorial malfeasance, the ills of our prison industrial complex, unaffordable bail, how misaligned incentives often produce unjust results, and why Jason is so committed to giving a voice to those wrongfully incarcerated. Jason is also an animal rights advocate, so that's an added bonus. We talk a bit about that, including the children's book he wrote with his daughter entitled Lulu Was a Rhinoceros. And of course, I couldn't let him go without a peek into his music career and compelling him to tell a few amazing stories, including how he discovered Lorde, which is a phenomenal tale, and the current state of rock and roll,

as well as his new venture. It's called the Church of Rock and Roll. My hope is that this conversation won't just better educate you on these important issues, but also provoke a deeper sense of empathy for those that suffer and inspire you to think and look deeper into these issues and perhaps even get involved in forging solutions. Here's Jason. You ready to go? Yeah, man.

Let's do it. Thank you so much. I appreciate you taking the time today to talk to me. I was super inspired. I mean, I've been following you for a while, and I've heard several podcasts that you've been on. I've been listening to Wrongful Conviction. But it was great to see you at Nantucket Project, and I was very moved by your presentation and what Amanda Knox had to say. And I was like, I got to get this guy on the show to share this incredibly powerful work that you're doing that's transforming our criminal justice system. And there's a lot of work to do. But before we even get into it, I applaud you for even attempting what feels, must feel like for you at times to be work that has no end. Well, it has no end because the problem is so massive. And first of all, thank you for that

very kind introduction. I'm a fan of yours as well. So let's just get that out of the way. But yeah, it's a mission that I feel like is, it's very personal to me. It's not even an optional thing. I almost feel like I got tapped on the shoulder, like, hey, kid, go do this. And it happened when I was in my young 30s, which I think is when a lot of people experienced that first, you know, rush of wanting to, you know, do something bigger than themselves. So I'm certainly not unique in that way, but I was just very lucky to find a cause that felt so natural to me and that became such a huge part of my life

in a way that I'm just very grateful for it. So what was the moment where it connected with you? Like what exactly transpired that made you realize like this is going to be the thing? So what happened was, Rich, that I was on my way to play tennis of all things. And I was looking for a newspaper to read in the taxi. And I grabbed a daily, it was the New York Post. The Times was sold out that day. So serendipity has it. I bought the Post. Not my typical paper. And there was a story.

The headline was Cuomo bid for cocaine kid or something like that. No, sorry, Ferraro plea for cocaine kid. So I was like, oh, this is interesting. Geraldine Ferraro, of course, was the first woman to ever be a vice presidential candidate for a major political party in America. And so this had a number of things in it that interested me. And so I read this story, and it was a story of a kid named Stephen Lennon who had been sentenced to 15 years to life for a nonviolent first offense cocaine possession charge in New York State. sentenced to 15 years to life for a nonviolent first offense cocaine possession charge in New York State. And just in case you thought you misheard me, that was a nonviolent first offense, and he was sentenced to a mandatory sentence of 15 years to life. And so the reason it was in the

paper was because his mother, he had been in for eight years already. He was the same age as I was at the time, which was 32. So obviously that hit me, right? And I had been to rehab myself, so I had my own issues, but I had been very, very lucky to avoid any sort of problems other than going to rehab, which isn't a problem. And anyway, so I was in the newspaper because his mother, Shirley, had been trying to get clemency from the first Governor Cuomo, Mario Cuomo, and had gotten letters written on behalf of Stephen from the warden, the judge, and even Geraldine Ferraro wrote a letter advocating for him. Ferraro's kid, her own son, had been arrested for code.

Yeah, I think I remember that. Right. But he was sentenced to house arrest. So to her credit, she took up the cause. And anyway, it was turned down. It was denied. So that's why it made the newspaper. Otherwise it would just been another one of the 2 million, well, back then we had less, but now over 2 million people in our, in our prisons in America. So I read this story and I freaked out. I just thought, I had no idea that these type of sentences were possible for nonviolent crimes in this country, much less this state, because we are in New York State as we record right now. And I decided I had to do something about

it. So I contacted the only criminal defense attorney I know, a guy named Bob Kalina. He used to represent my rock stars when they would get arrested. In those days, I had Stone Temple Pilots and Skid Row. There's a lot of work for that guy. I had him on speed dial. So I speed dialed Bob, and I was like, Bob, what can be done? He's like, nothing. There's nothing you can do. This is the way it is.

It's drug laws, Rockefeller drug laws. I said, do me a favor. This is really bugging me. Can you talk to Mrs. Lennon on the phone? He spoke to her. He said to me, look, as a favor to you, I'll read the transcripts of the trial. He read them. He calls me up a while later.

He says, listen, you know what? It's hopeless, but you're a good client. I'll take the case pro bono. Great. Several months later from that point, we ended up, we found ourselves in a courtroom in Malone, New York. They brought Stephen in shackled as if he was like, you know. Violent offender. Yeah.

Ready to break out of prison. Charles Manson or something, right? And the judge looked to be in his 70s. He had white hair. He looked like a conservative guy. I was like, you know, I didn't think we had a shot. But I sat there with Mr. and Mrs. Lennon. She was actually squeezing my hand tightly, as you can imagine,

as the arguments were made back and forth. And then the judge makes some proclamation. I haven't heard anything in this courtroom under section this, statute that, blah, blah, blah, but under the powers vested in me, the motion is granted. And he slams the gavel down. And I was like, what the fuck just happened? And Bob comes over. I go, Bob, what happened?

He goes, we won. I was like, we won? Get the fuck out of here. What do you mean? He goes, we won. I was like, oh my God, that's amazing. So it was the best, you can tell I'm still excited about it. So it was literally the best feeling I'd ever had. And he was freed. And, you know, with six years left to go before he would have been even eligible for parole. And then I thought, this is my calling in life. You know, I want to do more of this. Right. And where does Innocence Project come in? So that led me to do a little bit of research.

I read an article in Rolling Stone magazine soon afterwards that highlighted an organization called Families Against Mandatory Minimums, which is FAMM.org. Wonderful organization. I joined their board. And then not too long after that, I was at my in-laws house and I was bored. Imagine that scenario. Probably a lot of listeners can relate. And anyway, as I was flipping the channels and I came across a story of a guy named David Keaton,

who had been sentenced to death and was scheduled to be executed, and this nascent organization called the Innocence Project, had come along and taken his case and found the DNA from the crime scene and had it tested and proven that he was actually innocent. And not only wasn't he executed, but he was freed. And I thought, oh, my God, that's the most profound thing I've ever heard. And so I went, I called up in those days you could just call the Innocence Project and get the founder on the phone because there was nobody else there so it's Barry Barry Sheck who most people know from OJ fame yeah kind of

like the DNA guy and then Peter Newman Peter Neufeld right Neufeld right is the other co-founder so I went in to see them uh it was just two guys in a little room office with a telephone and a briefcase and a dream. And I just said, I'll do whatever you want. Like, I'm pretty good at networking. I can help you raise money. I can do like, I'll just make myself useful. I want to be involved. And so I became the founding board member. And, you know, the organization has grown a lot since then. It's become internationally recognized as a leader in this work, directly responsible for around 200 exonerations, DNA exonerations, almost exclusively, 21 of whom were on death row. almost exclusively, 21 of whom were on death row.

So imagine that. And probably even more important than the individual wins is the legislative victories or are the legislative victories that we've had. We've passed dozens and dozens of laws that are preventing countless numbers of wrongful convictions from happening. Those are the ones we'll never see. And those are even better because that means people won't even have to go through this miserable, this hell before we're able to get them out. So in this work that you do, which is really, you're oriented around essentially reforming our criminal justice

system in terms of wrongful convictions, how the system is set up in a way that is just conducive to so many acts of miscarrying of justice. Yeah, that's a topic we definitely need to get into. I want to put in a quick plug for my podcast, which is called Wrongful Conviction. And on it, I interview each week someone who was wrongfully arrested and convicted of a crime that they didn't commit and served, you know, in most cases, decades in prison. Up to, I mean, Malcolm Alexander was in for 38 years, Keith Allen Harwood 33 years. Some of them were sentenced to death, like Sonny Jacobs and others. And it's really a privilege for me to be able to play a part in helping to tell these stories

or helping them to tell their stories and move hearts and minds, which is part and parcel of what we're about to talk about now, which is changing the criminal justice system itself. And so our criminal justice system is so bloated and so misguided is too weak of a word. But to give you some very basic statistics, 30 or so years ago, we had around 300,000 people in prison in America. Now we have 2.2 million people, combining the people who are in prison and in jail. That's a 700% increase with no benefit to public safety. We are so far out of step with the rest of the civilized world that we lock our own citizens up at five times the rate

per capita of Western Europe, 14 times the rate of Japan. Think about that. In Japan, there's only around 70,000 people in prison, and they have almost half the population that we do. And they probably have less people in prison than some large states in America. I mean, it's certainly more people in prison in Texas than there are in Japan. So not to pick on Texas. In some ways, Texas is more progressive than other states in this area, but we'll get into that. So we are doing it exactly wrong, right? There's no benefit to public safety. It's tremendously expensive.

And not only are the numbers, and I think this is where a lot of conservatives see, you know, but at least there's some cooperation, is because conservatives, libertarians, whatever, they look at it and they go, this is big government. We don't want this, right? We don't want to spend these tens of billions, hundreds of billions of dollars in taxpayer dollars to keep all these people locked up. And no one can even, you know, you can't even see the cost. I mean, you could have social scientists't even see the cost. I mean, you can have social scientists that estimate the cost of the tax revenue that's being lost

when those people who would have been working and paying taxes are locked up. And then when they come out and can't get jobs and likely re-offend because they can't get any work, and that goes into the category of what I call the second punishment, because our parole and probation system is so broken. Our bail system is broken, right? So it's wrong on every step. We have about 7 million Americans. Remember, these are Americans.

We stop treating them like Americans as soon as we arrest them. But we have about 7 million Americans who are under supervision, about 4.5 million on parole and probation. And that is such a, you know... It's devastating. And also, I think, what is it, 5.1 times African Americans are incarcerated at a rate of over five times the rate of white Americans. And when you have the imbalances in the bail system, it just exacerbates this problem. And I'm not sure the argument can be made that when you're talking about big government, that privatization of our prison system is really resolving this issue or moving us in the right direction. No, private prisons, and I think it's around 6% of the prisons in America are private. That's 6% too many. I mean, how does that make any sense whatsoever?

We don't privatize any other government function like that. And when you think about it, it's pretty simple to understand that the only motivation for a private prison company is profit. So you end up with prisons that are even more dangerous and more chaotic and just less humane in every conceivable way than even the worst of the maximum security prisons that the government operates. Because these are prisons where the guards are paid minimally. They're trained minimally. The food is rotten, or it's the cheapest food that you can find. Everything they can cut, they cut.

So, you know, you end up with these, you know, there's a both wonderful and terrifying piece in Rolling Stone magazine recently about a guy who was, he was a thief and he was murdered in the prison in Arizona, private prison in Arizona by the other inmates. There's basically no supervision because the guards, they're sitting there, there's tremendous turnover of the guards, and they're sitting there going, hey, I'm making, you know, 12 bucks an hour. I'm not getting involved in this stuff. You know what I mean? Like... The incentivization structure is ill-conceived from top to bottom, and it also lends itself to creating these lobbying groups that are going to be a counterbalance on Capitol Hill to whatever measures you're trying to get passed to create a structure that is keeping these private prisons at 100% occupancy all the time and creating more and more prisons to fill up because

profit is the end game here, not rehabilitation. No, there was that really, really powerful and depressing movie, Kids for Cash. I haven't seen that. Oh, yeah. It was about some journalists, some brilliant journalists, discovered that there was a county. I don't know how he figured this out. There was a county in Pennsylvania that was locking up juveniles at like 20 times know, 20 times the rate of the other counties in Pennsylvania. And he thought this was curious. And after he did his investigation, he discovered that these judges,

there were two judges who were being paid by the private prisons to send kids to their prisons. So they were locking kids up for spitting on the sidewalk, spitting out their gum, for talking back to a teacher. For one kid, this one that haunts me, his name was Charlie, he was arrested for possession of a stolen scooter. I think he was 13. It was a gift from his uncle or something like that.

He didn't know it was stolen. And if he did, what was he supposed to do? He's a 13-year-old kid. And the judge gave him six months. And then, of course, they keep you in there. They charge you with infractions. He ended up serving about four years between his 13th and his 18th birthday in prison and then came out and got addicted to heroin and the whole thing.

But, yeah, but let's talk for a second, Rich, because since we're on this topic. And, by the way, my Instagram, which is where I talk about these topics, because I'm not really a – I'm not as active on Twitter or Facebook, but on Instagram I'm very active. My Instagram is at itsjasonflom, I-T-S-J-A-S-O-N-F-L-O-M. But let's talk about bail for a second, because this is a very hot topic right now. The American system of bail is so desperately in need of reform. And for people who aren't already aware of it, which I think is probably most people,

the bail system works like this. You walk out of here today, and you get picked up for whatever it is. Let's call it trespassing, right? Let's say you jump a turnstile. Let's say you're caught with an open container. Whatever trespassing, right? Let's say you jump a turnstile. Let's say you're caught with an open container. Whatever it is, right? Could be something as benign as that.

And you get taken to jail, and they say your bail's $1,000. But you don't have $1,000. Well, you better call somebody who's got $1,000. Let's say you don't know anybody who's got $1,000, But you don't have $1,000. Well, you better call somebody who's got $1,000. Let's say you don't know anybody who's got $1,000, which most people don't. A lot of people live paycheck to paycheck, and you're not going anywhere. And now you have two options. Either you can wait for your trial in jail. can wait for your trial in jail. And when people say jail, I think, you know, for a lot of people,

jail conjures up these images from the movies of like a country jail, you know, the guy laying back, maybe not, maybe it's just me smoking a corncob pipe, but jails by and large are more dangerous than prisons. Um, because there's no, there's, it's all, it's all transient, right? So there's no real structure. And you have a mixture of innocent people, guilty people, gang members, nonviolent criminals. And so, for instance, in New York, Rikers Island is more dangerous than any of the maximum security prisons in New York State. So now you're there, and you could wait a year or more for your trial. And one of the things that they— It'd really be a year? Oh, yeah.

Look at Kalief Browder, right? I mean, may he rest in peace and may his memory live forever. Kalief Browder was arrested, and he's a perfect example, or a tragically perfect example. Kalief Browder was arrested for allegedly stealing a backpack. Nobody said he beat anybody up or hit anybody or stabbed anybody. He stole a backpack. His bail was $2,500. He was a 16-year-old kid.

He didn't have $2,500. Nobody in his family did either. And he was in Rikers Island for three years where he was beaten by guards and inmates alike. He was in solitary confinement for two of his three years there. He's a child, 16-year-old child. Ultimately, the charges were dropped. And when he came out, he had a lot of trouble adjusting.

You know, there was a lot of publicity on his case. Many celebrities called him. He was on TV. And not too long after that, he hung himself at his mother's house. And, you know, he was a teenage kid charged with stealing a backpack. And he waited three years. Because one of the things that they can do, they would prefer, they'd always prefer for you to plead guilty. You know that 96% of felony convictions in America are the result of guilty pleas.

It's called the guilty plea problem, right? And the reason for that is the Kalief Browder problem, right? Which is that people can't sit there like that, right? And when your options are, wait. And they can always, the authorities can always postpone your trial, right? It's not uncommon for a prosecutor to show up and say, Your Honor, I need more time to prepare. And the judge will say, Okay, come back in three weeks.

Now you go back to jail for three weeks. And now they have all the leverage. So years ago I created, or I can't say I created, I worked with Robin Steinberg at the Bronx Defenders to create something called the Freedom Fund in the Bronx. And what the Freedom Fund is, was and is, is a revolving bail fund where I raised the money. I raised $200,000 to start, not a lot of money. And I turned it over to the Bronx Defenders so that they could post bail for

their own clients in these, what I call no-knit cases, right? Cases in which bail is $1,500 or less. 97% of our clients showed up for every court date. And one of them's had 15 court dates, right? Because they keep postponing. But at least he's out. And in many cases, they'll drop the charges if you're out. They're not going to prosecute you for smoking a joint in the park or riding your bicycle. This kid was actually riding his bicycle on the sidewalk. That's what he was originally arrested for. And then they claimed he resisted arrest. He was training to be a police officer at the time. Anyway, I'm not going to name his name.

So we created this bail fund, and it's been a tremendous success. It's proven without any doubt that people don't need a cash incentive to show up for trial. What they need is a text message, a reminder or something like that, which is easy to do these days. And now it's being taken to national. It's being taken national. So we have a national bail fund. We raised a lot of money. We're hoping to bail out 150,000 people over the next three years.

And it's also been replicated in cities and counties all around the country. So we need to stop locking people up. Yeah, I mean, that's a great and seemingly simple solution to this gigantic, glaring problem. I mean, when you think about the fact that we have a constitutional right to a speedy trial and that somebody would sit rotting in a jail cell for years based on a nonviolent petty offense because they can't afford $1,000, it's insane. It's also...

Oh, sorry, Rich. Go ahead. No, I was just going to say, you're right. Most people can't afford to post these nominal bails because they don't have it. And then they're presented with this fact that they're going to sit in a jail cell for however long. And so, it's not surprising that you're going to get a gigantic number of false confessions. We also know that, or please, yeah. Please, yeah.

Or just guilty please. But we also have the statistics now that show, this was compiled at the Cochrone Center at UPenn, where they were able to show that people, even if you're locked up for, I'm going to say as little as, I don't want to trivialize it, but three days, you know, awaiting your hearing, your life goes downhill fast. awaiting your hearing, your life goes downhill fast. When you're a person who's living on the margins, you will very likely lose your job. You could lose your, who can show up for, not show up for work for three days? You could lose your housing status. You could lose your, you could even lose custody and have to fight to get that back.

So whatever problems you had before you went in are exacerbated greatly by this experience, even if it's a short stay. And then you are much, much more likely to commit a crime in the next 12 months, which is a problem for all of us in society, right? So we are actually making the problem much, much worse as a result of this. So we are actually making the problem much, much worse as a result of this. And it goes even further because money bail is a violation of the Sixth and the Fourteenth Amendment, equal protection in due process. You can't have two separate systems of justice, one for rich people and one for poor people, but we do. And constitutionally, bail is supposed to be set according to your ability to pay, but it isn't. And bail hearings, by and large, are a joke. There are many places in this country where you're not even in front of a judge. You may be on a video monitor. There could be a whole group of you. And, you, and you may not be represented by anyone.

And so there's very little consideration for your socioeconomic status or your possible culpability. And the answer is, first of all, there's a wonderful guy, a real hero of mine named Alec Karkatsanis, who runs an organization called the Civil Rights Corps. So it's Civil Rights C-O-R-P-E, C-O-R-P-S, Civil Rights Corps. And he's been suing and winning all over the country on exactly that legal premise. Yeah, I would imagine there's a very valid constitutional case that can be made to challenge these structures. It's surprising to me that something like this hasn't been, you know been taken to the Supreme Court by the ACLU. Well, the federal, and it probably will,

I don't know, maybe it'll end up there. I have no idea. But the money bill was abolished in the federal system in the 60s. But it still exists in almost every state. Washington, D.C. doesn't have it. California just abolished money bail. Actually, today's a good day in one sense, which is that Washington State abolished the death penalty today, so we can celebrate that. They're the 20th state to abolish the death penalty.

But money bail, the difficulty with money bail and even eliminating it is that we have to be very careful about what it's replaced with because there will be all sorts of new profit motives and people that will step in to prey on the poor right it's just a tax on the poor is all it is and people will step in with all kinds of new testing drug testing ankle monitor things that you have to pay for you have to pay for these things and then you get stuck with these fines and fees that you can't pay. And then that's a new crime. And so we really are, you know, it's designed to keep poor people poor, desperate and under supervision

when what we should be doing is providing them with services and help that will allow them to become productive citizens and pay money into the system rather than us paying money to keep them in the system. Why is it so hard to implement a process whereby we could overhaul the system to ensure that very thing? Oh, I mean, there's a lot of money involved, you know, and there's money in politics, right? And so it's never as simple as it should be. And that's why even in California, where we've just, just a few weeks ago, money bail was abolished, the, you know, the solution was highly imperfect, because of some of the things I just talked about. But it's still progress, and I think we you get picked up on your way home for shoplifting

or whatever it is, or you look like somebody that did something, you should be, you know, given a court date and sent home to go to your, take care of your family, go to your job, go to church, and show up on whatever date it is for your trial or your hearing or whatever it is. And then we can determine unless, well, how about this, too? I mean, there's a saying in the movement that a system in which Sandra Bland goes to jail and Robert Durst goes home is a broken system, right? So if you were picked up for what Robert Durst was picked up for, right,

which was killing and dismembering his next door neighbor and then chopping his body into bits and throwing it in garbage bags, putting it in a garbage bag and throwing it in the sea. I mean, there's an argument that we shouldn't really have any particular number that bail. Right. Well, when you have infinite resources to make yourself scarce. There just shouldn't be any number, right? If there's a legitimate fear that you're that guy, then shouldn't we hold you there for a minute until we can figure out what the hell's going on? I mean, and what number would be appropriate? Yeah, as it turned out, they didn't know he was rich because he was living in a different identity.

And it's, you know, I mean, in a different identity. But regardless, it seems to me that the default should always be to send you home and we'll figure it out when you show up for your hearing. And then or the charges will be dropped between now and then when it becomes clear that you weren't the guy that did it. Or if you if it does look like you were, then we should have a hearing and we should get your day in court like everybody else. And you should have a speedy trial and all the rest of it. But in the meantime, you know, breaking up these families and these communities, as we're doing, by virtue of keeping, you know, the 450,000 people as we're sitting here now having this conversation, it's 450,000 Americans. And I keep saying Americans because we have to remember these are our people, right?

because we have to remember these are our people, right? And there's 450,000 people in jail right now just because they don't have the money to get themselves home. Let's talk a little bit about the faulty false confession dilemma and this technique. What's it called? The read technique, and how this is basically creating a situation that is getting all of these people to admit to crimes that they didn't commit. False confessions are a fascinating phenomenon, mystifying, troubling, puzzling, fascinating, because I would bet dollars to donuts that 99% of the people listening right now are saying to themselves, I never confessed to a crime I didn't commit.

Are you nuts, Rich? Get this guy off the air. You've got to be crazy. I'm not just ridiculous, right? Nobody would do that. Well, and it becomes the most damning piece of evidence. It's all you need. I mean, it is, it is, it's the most damning piece of evidence. And because it's exactly what I just said, what juror can possibly see through a false confession and understand why somebody would confess to a crime they didn't commit? Well, there's a lot of reasons why. One of them is the Reed technique,

which was a technique that was a protocol that was developed, I think, in the 60s or 70s in Chicago. I think it was a detective and maybe a psychologist working together who created this. It's almost like a little, I mean, this is a weird way of saying it, but it's almost a scripted routine that they go through. It's like this nine point process.

Right. So they get you in that room. It's this airless, windowless room from which there is no escape. Typically, you're there by yourself. You're not represented by anyone. And for anyone listening, I tell all my listeners on Wrongful Conviction, my podcast, I tell them, if you get arrested and charged with a crime you didn't commit or brought in for questioning about a crime you didn't commit, even if they say, listen, Rich, we're just talking to you as a, we think you might know something about this.

What you say is, my name's Rich Roll. Here's my address. And I want a lawyer. That's it. And then shut up. Because once you say, I want a lawyer, they have to stop talking to you. That's it. And then shut up. Because once you say I want a lawyer, they have to stop talking to you. That's the law. But if you don't, they're going to engage you in conversation. And then the read technique may come into play, which is, you know, it involves good cop, bad cop. There may be either real or perceived threats of violence. There's a whole, you know, in the room, out of the room, move closer, move away. They're allowed to lie to you. Don't forget, when they're interrogating you, they can lie. So they can say, listen, man, you know, we got your fingerprints on the gun.

Your friend's next door, the guy who was at the crime scene. He saw you do it. I mean, he told us you did it. Like, you got to, man, we're trying to help you here. You know, like, this is not good for you. And since we got all the evidence already, we really don't even need your confession, right? This is something they might say. It's a hypothetical.

So you ought to play ball with us. Because if you do, we're going to go easy on you, man. And look, it'll get sorted out later. It's amazing they can lie to you like that. Yeah, they can lie. They can say whatever they want. And then you take the case, and it's interesting, too, I think, that most false confessions happen after long interrogations. Because if you're guilty, you're not going to want to sit in there all day and all night, right?

You're going to fess up to get out of that room. But, you know, take the case of Jeffrey Deskovic, right, who was interrogated as a 16-year-old kid, was interrogated for nine hours. By the time he confessed, he was curled up in a fetal position on the floor. And, you know, it was a classic good cop, bad cop thing. And they told him, listen, man, just confess to the crime.

No one's going to believe you did it. This is a brutal rape and murder of a 15-year-old girl. You're just a kid. It'll get sorted out. Trust me. But, you know, just we want, we're trying to help you here, man. I'm trying to, my partner's in the other, I don't know what he's going to do, right? But, you know, look, the best thing for you to do is confess.

You can go home. Well, tomorrow we'll get this all figured out. But if you don't and you can't afford bail, you're going to sit there for however long. You're going to lose your job. And there's a domino effect of how that's going to negatively impact your life. is rigged to basically incentivize these people to just to do this exact thing, which is confess irrespective of their connection or relationship with the offense. Well, and in many confessions, many false confessions, I'm thinking about one Jeffrey's case or, you know, and he did confess and ended up serving 16 years before he was exonerated with DNA.

16 years before he was exonerated with DNA. And, you know, in the case of Yen Suring, right, who's a guy I've been working on his case for, you know, quite some time. He's been in for 31 years in Virginia. False confession. And he got all the details wrong. Like in these confessions, you know, most of the time the details are all wrong. So, you know, you got to be able to see through that. And then there's Johnny Hincapia, who was on my podcast, right? And Johnny was a guy who was convicted of

one of the most notorious crimes in the history of New York. It was the murder of the Brian Watkins on the subway at 50th and 8th. He was here with his family from Utah. They were going to the U.S. Open, a gang of kids. This was during the crime wave in the early 90s and a gang of kids, late 80s, early 90s, gang of kids got on, black and brown kids got on the subway.S. Open, a gang of kids, this was during the crime wave in the early 90s, and a gang of kids, late 80s, early 90s, a gang of kids, black and brown kids got on the subway. This is this Utah Mormon family, right? So it had all the media triggers. Super predators, all this stuff was by patchwork back then. And this group of kids got on to rob people, and they were robbing this family, and one of them pushed the mother around, and this kid heroically came to his mother's rescue and was stabbed in the melee by one of these kids who ran away.

And six of them were picked up. And, you know, one of them was probably under this very difficult interrogation and they were told to name somebody. And he just pulled Johnny's name out of a hat because it was a kid he knew from school. And Johnny was picked up. He was 18 years old and never been in trouble, was a dancer and a DJ. And, you know, he says to me, you know, they were beating the shit out of me. You know, they pulled the hair out of my head. They're smacking me around.

And he's like, and they told me they were going to kill me and dump my body in an alley. He goes, why did I confess? He goes, why wouldn't I confess? I knew what these guys are capable of. And I was hoping that something would change. 25 years later, he was proven innocent. He served 25 years in prison. So you have to hear these stories to believe it. But when you, again, we have so many cases, 25% of the first 250 DNA exonerations were false confessions. And we know also, and this is important for anyone who's going to end up serving on a jury, and if you're listening, please, if you get called for jury duty, show up, pay attention,

be woke, and stay woke, because what you're hearing and seeing needs close inspection. If you haven't seen Making a Murderer, watch it, right? You'll know what goes on. a murderer, watch it, right? You'll know what goes on. And when you hear these stories from the people who lived them, the Johnny Hincapia episode of Wrongful Conviction, it'll blow your mind. He's such a good guy too. He's a close friend of mine. The other thing that really blows my mind that I think a lot of people don't really fully grasp is the fact that prosecutors and judges rarely face misconduct charges for introducing false evidence. And even worse, prosecutors who knowingly submit false evidence are immune from civil damages suits, which is banana. I mean, I understand

the incentives that create a structure like that because prosecutors need to be able to do what they do without fear of reprisal if they make a misstep for being sued because that would have a chilling effect on the cases they would bring. But I feel like this pendulum has swung way too far. Yeah, I mean, it's, you know, and I always say there's, you know, I'm a person who believes in a system of law and order. I'm not an anarchist. You know, I remember there was that button that people used to wear in the 70s, you know, don't like cops, next time you're in trouble, call a hippie, right? You know, I mean, you know, I grew up respecting the uniform. And I think that the majority, the overwhelming majority of police, prosecutors, and people in the system are good people who mean well. They may make mistakes, but they don't make them intentionally.

Everyone makes mistakes. Doctors make mistakes. Everyone makes mistakes. But prosecutors, there are some bad actors, and they do incredible amounts of damage. They're driven by ambition with a lack of empathies, not even in the picture, but they just want these convictions. And you're right, they don't face any repercussions. So even if they screw up and they get caught, they can go back and do it again. And we see it over and over again. I mean, look at New Orleans.

Yeah, what was the case? Who's the woman who you just had on your show a couple weeks ago who was falsely accused of killing her mom? Nora Jackson. Yeah. Yeah, that's a horrible one. And, you know, she was, in this particular case, Nora, who's, you know, who's family to me now. She she was wrongfully convicted of killing her own mother, which is just I mean, if that doesn't break your heart, I don't know what will. Right. And she found her mother's body. Yeah, stabbed 50 times. And, you know, the prosecutors concocted this insane story that

they were able to sell to a jury that she had stabbed her mother 50 times for basically no reason. And we know that matricide is one of the most uncommon crimes that there is. Girls don't kill their mothers, except in very rare cases. And in those cases, it's almost always after a lifetime of abuse. There was no abuse in this family. And she was a single mom, right? Single mom, only child, super close. And so the story that they were able to sell to this jury was that Nora stabbed her mom 50 times for no reason.

They claimed it was because she wanted to party more or something like this, right? Which is still basically no reason. Every teenager has gone through that pretty much. And we don't even know if that's true. And magically, somehow, managed to not get a drop of blood on herself, not ruin her manicure, there's pictures of her hands, which her manicure was perfect, not leave any trace of her own blood or DNA at the crime scene, all of which is impossible. And there was blood from somebody else, right, on the scene. Right, there's two, I think there's two

male, there's blood from two unknown males, who are almost certainly the actual killers. And yeah, it's really hard to understand what drives someone or what allows someone to take the liberty of destroying the life of a child, in this case a child, by, you know, framing them for a crime. In this case, it's a little orphan child. I mean, like, you know, Victor Hugo would blush, right, at this story. It's so terrible. And Nora, I mean, when she told this story, it's just, it's so heartbreaking and

so hard to understand what motivated this prosecutor or prosecutors to withhold exculpatory evidence, to break other rules in the courtroom, so much so that the Tennessee Supreme Court overturned her conviction unanimously. Right? Think about that. Unanimously. That's not common. They were even shocked. But ultimately, she was only subjected to a private reprimand and went on about her business and had been promoted by then or promoted. She had run successfully for DA. Right. And she's been on the receiving end of like a litany of other similarly toned complaints.

Yeah, these things go in bunches. I mean, we find that. And that's why I say, like, I think that there's the majority of prosecutors are doing their jobs. It's not an easy job, you know, and they're not paid a lot of money. So, you know, I'm not I'm not I'm certainly not, you know, going to going to lump them all together by any stretch of the imagination. But the ones that do this damage, I mean, look in New Orleans where Harry Connick Sr., right, he put eight people on death row, six of them have been exonerated. The other two may be innocent as well.

I mean, these things, it's not hard to see these clusters, right, of wrongful convictions. And the thing, you know, one point I want to bring up in this is that every time, by definition, point I want to bring up in this is that every time, by definition, that we lock up the wrong person, the right person remains free. So the innocent person goes to prison, the actual murderer or rapist or stabber or shooter or whatever it might be, remains free to commit more terrible crimes and to create more innocent victims. And we know now from all these years of doing this that in, call it around half of the cases in which we've proven with DNA that the person who's been convicted was actually innocent and gotten them out. We've also gotten a hit in CODIS, the national database, and been able to hand that information to the authorities of who the actual killer was. Michael Morton's case is one of those.

And in most of those cases, I don't know the exact number, but most of those cases that person has gone on, like in Michael Morton's case, to destroy the lives of other innocent people. That should never have happened. You know, Michael Morton's case is a classic example, and he's been on my podcast as well, Wrongful Conviction. Michael was wrongfully convicted of the murder of his wife. They withheld exculpatory evidence. There was a bloody bandana found outside the house. She was beaten to death. He was at work. And sure enough, they also withheld the evidence that her credit card had been used days later, 20 miles away. And there was also evidence that her, his son, who was four at the time, had been asked whether his dad had killed his mother because he witnessed it.

And he said, no, a monster with a mustache came. And all of that somehow was not part of the defense. And I'll get into that in a second. But in Michael's case, we know for a fact because 24 years and 7 months, as Michael says, he was in for 24-7, right? 24-7, he was in his cell for 24-7. So we know that that killer went on and beat another woman to death, you know, two neighborhoods away, not too long after this murder.

So how would it feel to be a family member of hers and know that, you know, this guy was framed and it never needed to happen in the first place. Yeah, it's inconceivable. I mean, it's impossible to imagine what that must be like. No, it's just, I can't even process it. And, you know, Michael just, I mean, would any of them go through? And, of course, he came out, and this is another thing that is always so remarkable to me. And you'll hear it on basically every episode of my, my show

is that, you know, Michael comes out of this ordeal with, in a state of, I can only describe it as grace, you know, with, with kindness and positivity. And in his case, it was one of the only cases, there's only two cases that are known in which a prosecutor has actually been jailed for this type of misconduct. And his was one of them. It was a prosecutor named Anderson, who by the time he was arrested, was a federal, was a judge, a sitting judge. He was arrested in his chambers. Yeah. I mean, one of the sort of consistent through lines with the people that you talk to and the work that you do, and something I found to be delightfully surprising is the level of grace with which these people carry themselves. Because you

would think that they would be incredibly bitter and angry. And yet, time and time again, there's so many examples and the people that you talk to and work with that they really are able to maintain some level of equanimity and perspective on this in a way that I think, at least I found personally, to be almost shocking. It is shocking. If you imagine yourself in that scenario. You can't. Yeah. I mean, it puts so much gratitude in my attitude because, you know, and Michael is so extraordinary. You know, when his tormentor, right, this prosecutor turned judge who had withheld three critical pieces of evidence. And I want to talk about that.

The Brady, the Brady rule. Brady rule. When he was charged with three, I forgot what the three crimes were. I think they were felonies. And he pleaded down to misdemeanors. And there was a hearing for this Anderson guy, this disgraced judge. And Michael was asked if he wanted to say anything at the hearing for this guy who willfully put an innocent person in prison for 24 years and seven months, took him away from his son, a guy who had just had to deal with the trauma of losing his wife,

who he loved very much. had to deal with the trauma of losing his wife, who he loved very much. And Michael gets up and says to the sitting judge, Your Honor, I hope you show mercy on this man. And you sit there and go, That's extraordinary. Who are you, dude? Are you Jesus?

Are you Mandela? Like, what the hell? Like, where does that even come from? So I do want to talk about Brady because this is something that most people wouldn't necessarily know. I wouldn't expect people to know. But Brady was a ruling in the Supreme Court in the 60s, which would seem very intuitive, ruling in the Supreme Court in the 60s, which would seem very intuitive, in which the Supreme Court said that the prosecution must disclose exculpatory evidence to the defense prior to the trial. Seems perfectly logical. This predates, this goes back to English law. In English law, they had a thing called trial by ambush, where they believed that they shouldn't tell the defense about any of the evidence against them because they shouldn't tell the defense about any

of the evidence against them because they shouldn't know because then they could just ambush them with it, right? But obviously, as years went by and we became more evolved, we realized that you have to have access to this information. It's weird because if we were in a dispute, a banking dispute or something else, we would have to give each other all the records, right? All of them. There's no question about that. But in a case in which somebody's life is at stake, they didn't have to do that.

So the Supreme Court said, yes, you do. You have to turn over the exculpatory evidence of the defense. Do you have to turn over the exculpatory evidence to the defense? But in the fine print, they said that it's up to the prosecutor to decide whether they think something is material. So that's sort of like letting the fox guard the hen house, right? To vest the prosecutor with that level of discretion without any kind of guideposts as to what that means is carte blanche to do whatever they want. Right. And that happened in Nora's case. It happened in Michael Morton's case. It's happened in so many cases. And there's also, and this is a state problem as well, that there's no particular time bar, right?

So, you know, there are cases that we hear about where the day before, the day of the trial, boxes of evidence could be dumped on your lawyer's desk. Now here's what you're dealing with. Now you've got a public defender in most cases who's doing as many as 400 cases a year. You may not have even met him till the day of the trial, him or her. And now you're getting a box of evidence dumped on your desk. What are you supposed to do with it? Are you going to go start interviewing witnesses? Where are you going to find them? You have no time. In many cases, you'd also don't have money, right? Capital trials in some states, the public defender is paid $1,000.

Win, lose, or draw. Right. So technically, they meet the standard of disclosing the exculpatory evidence, but it's a needle in a haystack. It's impossible. And then, of course, some of these things are so bizarre as to be, you know, if they weren't tragic, they'd be comical, right? Like there was that case in Texas about a decade ago in which a guy appealed his conviction based on the fact that his court-appointed lawyer was asleep for large parts of his trial. And the appellate court ruled two to one against him. And they said that the Constitution guarantees you the right to a lawyer, but not necessarily one that's awake.

That is unbelievable. So technically he had a lawyer sitting right there, but the guy was asleep. watch, which really shows the nobility of public defenders when they're really diligent and good people. These people are underpaid, by and large, overworked. They have uphill battles to fight that are daunting. They have to deal with the trauma of losing cases that they know they should win because they're understaffed. And yet they show up every day to fight. And so I have so much respect for people. They're dealing, in many cases, with debt from law school or college or whatever.

There's a scene in that movie where the lawyer is literally pulling quarters out of her cushions to try to get enough money for $3 for gas so she can get to the courtroom. And you're like, what are we doing? Like, what are we doing? Like, how is that fair? And, you know, again, in the capital trials, you're going to give somebody $500 or $1,000. Is that what someone's life is really worth? They should be able to hire experts. The government can hire whoever they want.

Right. You know, so it's a, you know, there's a lot to it. But there's a lot, there's more, there's the good news. There's more momentum now than at any time in my 25 years of doing this for change. Well, DNA science has blown this whole thing wide open. And meanwhile, it seems to, we're experiencing an interesting moment right now because there's this massive kind of like resurgence of interest in true crime on a level that I don't remember in recent memory. And I don't know whether that's a function of Netflix and streaming services or the growth of the podcast medium,

because certainly all these true crime podcasts are incredibly popular right now. So people are, there is a thirst, there's a hunger for these types of stories. So I feel like at least from somebody from the outside looking in to where you're sitting, I would imagine there's hope in that, right? There's a lot of conversations that are happening and there seems to be more and more avenues to address these wrongs through alternative forms of media like this that ultimately can catalyze results. Yeah. I mean, the media, I think, played a role in creating the hysteria that led to some of these crazy laws being passed. The media has also played a role in many of these wrongful convictions. You see it with Amanda Knox's case, Nora Jackson's case, see it when making a murderer, right?

I mean, when there's a high-profile crime and there's a media frenzy, it increases the pressure on the authorities to solve it. They can get tunnel vision. So, you know, a lot of these mistakes are made innocently, like I said, and there are mistakes in every profession. Listen, I don't even bat 300 at my job. You know what I mean? So, you know, my day job is music, of course, and trying to turn civilians into pop and rock stars. We're going to talk about that a little bit, I hope. No, we can't. But so, yeah, I mean, I'm not, you know, I'm not perfect. Nobody's perfect. Everybody makes mistakes. But the chance of those mistakes being made, and I say this because of the

fact that everyone who's listening is a potential juror. So if it's a high-profile case that you're on, be aware that tunnel vision is another very common cause of wrongful conviction, which just basically means that they get somebody and they start to create a narrative that all points towards that person because they believe that that's him or her. And then they can, that syndrome, that mental focus can cause you to disregard evidence that otherwise would seem to totally, you know, exonerate that person. So, again, if you're on a jury, be woke, be aware, mistakes are made at every level, honest mistakes. You also have, you know, the possibility that somebody on the stand, like in making a murder, it could be lying. And so you have to, you have to pay attention because, you know, it's, it's somebody's child up there. It's somebody's

mother or father. It's somebody's child up there. It's somebody's mother or father. It's somebody's life. One of the things that I didn't really fully understand or appreciate is what you call the second punishment, right? Like I just had this idea. You've been wrongly convicted. Your sentence gets overturned, and you are released to the world into your life. And that's really not how it works. There's still a whole process that has to be, you know, all kinds of knots that have to get untied. And then there is all the issues that play into how you reintegrate into society. So So can you talk a little bit about how that works? Yeah.

So I don't know if I coined that phrase, a second punishment or not, but I think it's an apt title for this sort of, I think, very American problem of the way we treat people who are system affected, guilty or innocent. And that extends to everything from that box they have to check in most places if they apply for a job that says, have you ever been convicted of a felony? The fact that you can't vote in most places. You may be barred from housing, all sorts of opportunities, doors closed. Employers, I think, probably is the number one issue.

If your conviction is overturned for a felony, do you still have to check that you've been convicted of a felony? That's a good question. I don't even know the answer to that. You shouldn't have to. You shouldn't have to. But I think in some cases you may have to and then you just have to explain it. But even then, I've had exonerees tell me, hey, I go in and I was in for 14 years or whatever it is, and I go in for a job interview and I show them the newspaper headlines and even a proclamation from a judge and they say they understand,

but they don't understand. And I hope that people will start to open their hearts and minds and their payrolls to system-affected people, because I can tell you that having worked with many of them over the years and having been helpful to them in getting them employment in some cases, they are some of the most hardworking and forthright people that you can come across because they're so happy to have an opportunity and they want to prove themselves and they want to make up for their lost time. So there's some really great success stories, but they're too few and far between because most people are not willing to give them a shot. Yeah. Yeah. It's got to be incredibly difficult. I mean, just when Amanda was talking at Nantucket Project about that process for her, I mean, that's a whole different thing because of the white hot

media spotlight that was upon her. Oh yeah. I mean, Amanda, who is such an extraordinary being, just an ethereal sort of little orb of light, and someone who I respect so much. She said so eloquently when we were there, and it was hard for me because I was on stage with her, but I was off to the side while she was speaking, but my mic was on, and I was trying not to cry. Right. Cause I was like, I can't start bawling into the microphone. It was going to be a mass breakdown of everyone. So I held it in. But, um, but yeah, she spoke so eloquently about the fact that she was a pariah, you know, she was portrayed as, as, and you can Google the speech.

Um, if you, I think if you Google Amanda Knox Knox Nantucket Project, it'll come up. How she was portrayed as this seductress and this whore and this, you know, because that was the thing that sold newspapers, right? And it sold ratings. And, you know, it's a lot. I mean, she is famous and infamous, and, you know, I still get people coming up to me going, I mean, who know that, you know, we're close,

and who say, well, she did it, right? And I'm like, no, you did it, idiot, you know? You literally had more to do with that crime than she did. Like, get the fuck out of my face, you know? So, yeah, it's a, you know, as a society, we can and should do better, whether you're a religious person or not. You know, it's like, don't we, you know, I mean, how much punishment is enough? Like, why would there be this second punishment if someone,

even if they're guilty, and a lot of people are of something. And there's a thing too, my friend Nadia, Pastor Nadia Bolzweber. She's amazing. I love Nadia. I didn't know who she was before Nantucket Project, and I just fell in love with her. I followed her around like a puppy for seven hours after she spoke. We went for pizza, we went for a bike ride. I just wanted to soak up. Everything she says, I want to bottle it and then spray it on myself later. You know, it's like, and, and she talks about how, you know, as, as people, as a group, we have a need to demonize, uh, our fellow man or woman, um, because it helps

us compartmentalize our own transgressions. right? So by turning someone into that villain, you're a, you know, I'm paraphrasing her, but I'm getting it more or less, right? And yeah, so these are extreme examples of that. But I think it's something we all need to be careful of because, you know, what did, I mean, and I'm not a religious person, didn't Jesus say that he is without sin cast the first stone, right? So anyway, I think that I do think there's reason to be optimistic. A change, as Bob Dylan said, a change is going to come. And it's coming because we can't continue this way. It doesn't make any sense.

It's wrong. It's illogical. It's wrong. It doesn't work. It's cruel and it's pernicious. And now there's this coalition of everything from famous rappers to billionaires to social workers to advocates like me, to, you know, criminal justice, just this is a major movement underfoot. And the media now is, you know, is playing a big part in it. How has all of this been colored by the current political climate? Like, what is the Trump impact on legislative and regulatory efforts and just sort of public consensus around these ideas?

Well, the action is in the states. Let's just say that. 90% of the prisoners in America are in state facilities. So there's going to be probably a limit to what can be accomplished federally. be probably a limit to what can be accomplished federally. There is, you know, Jared Kushner is a major advocate of criminal justice reform and he means it. That's good. And I think that he is, you know, he's a great advocate. I just don't know. I mean, there's a lot of resistance, but in the states, there's so much movement. There's so many changes being made, small and large. And even in states like Louisiana, right, where there's been some criminal justice reform recently, they're no longer the largest per capita incarcerator in this country. Now it's Oklahoma. But, you know, Texas has made some very, very positive moves.

You know, states that you wouldn't expect are, and maybe that's because, like I said, it's conservative. A true conservative looks at this and goes, this ain't right. Right, right. inspiring and fascinating the impact that you're having on our legal system, given that you're not a lawyer, but you are the progeny of a great lawyer, the great Joe Flom. And it's like, I can't help but thinking like, is this bred into your DNA, despite the choices that you made as a younger person to get into the industry that you're in, still, it's like it's crept up and becomes expressed in you. Do you think about that? Yeah, I think about it a lot.

I mean, my dad was my hero and my mentor. He was a legendary attorney, but moreover, he was a very super ethical guy who taught my brother and I something that I passed on to my kids, which he said, do whatever you want to do. Try to be the best at it, but just make the world a better place. If you do, then you'll be a success in my eyes. So I've tried to live up to that. You know, I found my calling in criminal justice reform. Maybe I'm overcompensating for the fact that I'm a college dropout. My rock and roll dreams went by the wayside when I was a kid, but they took priority over school.

And now here I am all these years later, and I'm in an interesting position because I'm able to approach this from sort of like a stealth operator. I can take meetings with people that might not otherwise meet with me if I was a full-time advocate, but they're interested in talking to the guy who discovered Katy Perry or Kid Rock or now Lorde or Greta Van Fleet, whatever.

It's sort of a different thing if you're a politician or somebody. And then I can, you know, often get them engaged in conversations about criminal justice reform or even individual cases that might not otherwise happen. And so I love being schizophrenic, you know, or living a double life. That's cool. I have the dubious honor of having been the worst paralegal slash legal assistant at Skadden back in the late 1980s, early 90s. Wow. I worked there for two years. early nineties. I worked there for two years. I don't think I ever met your dad, but I was at 919 3rd Avenue for a couple of years there. Yeah. We may have seen each other there.

I would imagine we may have. I can't believe I went to law school after that experience because it was so clearly not for me, but that was my formative introduction to the practice of big time Wall Street lawyerdom. And it was fascinating. That was a very interesting, that was really in the midst of the boom of the M&A era, which was what your dad ushered in. And it was fascinating to just observe if nothing else, but I just wanted to party. And that place was so big. And the floor that I was on was just all paralegals. What floor were you on? And I think I was on 23 or 21. Oh, I didn't know you were there. Yeah. And I figured out very early and often how to hide and dodge calls and not have to do

anything and still maintain my employment there. So it was not my finest moment. So Skadden is just by way of reference, Skadden was my dad's firm. Skadden, Arps, Slate, Marr, and Flom. And so I keep running into people in the most interesting circumstances who worked there at some point. And it's awesome. I mean, he really did it. It's funny, you know, when he was on his last legs, you know, he had a heart operation the day after Christmas about seven or eight years ago. And he survived the operation, but the recovery was too much for him. He was 87. And he was in the hospital for a few months, and I visited him very often, almost every day. He was in the hospital for a few months, and I visited him very often, almost every day.

And one day I was there, and I was sitting by his bed, and I was texting or doing whatever because he was sleeping. And he opens one eye, and he looks at me, and he goes, I had a pretty good run. And I was like, fucking A, Dad. You know what I mean? You did, man. Yeah, he did. He had a great run. He was a great guy, and he taught me so much. And I think he was a big fan of the work of the Innocence Project.

He loved the fact that I was involved in this. Whenever he would be the first guy I would call, if I was able to get clemency for someone or get someone else out of prison by whatever means I could, he just loved that stuff. And I'm glad I was able to make him proud. I think I wasn't the best teenage son, but he lived long enough to see me become successful in the music business and, you know, have a positive impact on, uh, people's lives who really needed help. And, you know, there's a thing for me about helping the helpless. I've always, that's always been a big thing for me. Uh, I don't know why, I guess I got it from him. Um, and you know, the idea that I'm in a position where I can do that means that I must do that, you

know, and I just wish I could do more. And, you know, people say to me, like, why are you so obsessed with this? Like, you're doing this music stuff and whatever else. And I'm like, because you know what? You know, a long time from now, nobody will give a fuck who signed, you know, whichever act you want to pick of mine that was a big hit. Skid Row or, like I said, Katy Perry is a great example. Nobody cares.

Nobody cares who signed The Beatles or Pink Floyd. Nobody cares. is that I was able to help give somebody their life back or change a law that helped to prevent people from this terrible, terrible fate. And that's what I like. This drive to help the helpless, that spills over into animal rights as well for you. Yeah. Based on your Instagram, you're always posting about endangered species and all kinds of animal advocacy stuff. Yeah. So my Instagram is at itsjasonflom, I-T-S Jason Flom. Someone else had the Jason Flom name, which is funny. He's a school teacher in Tallahassee. We've actually connected.

He wouldn't give it to you? I haven't asked. And you know how I find out about him? It was so funny because my girlfriend at the time, this was about seven years ago, she says to me, you're not playing Words with Friends with me. You haven't made a move in a couple days. I go, that's because we're not playing. Right.

And she goes, yes, we are. She's playing with him. And she shows me she's playing with Jason Flom, right? Now I'm not Jason Flom, in other words, friends. I forgot what my name is. I don't know. It's Popeye Doyle or something. But anyway, so, um, so I said, oh, I got an idea. So I started a game with him right now. Remember, I'm not Jason Flom, in other words, with friends. Right. So I started a game with this guy and I play a couple of games with him. Then I messaged him inside the game and I go, by the way, dude, I'm also Jason Flom. And he goes, oh, you're that guy.

He goes, that's why people keep sending me their music. So I was like, and now I found out there's a lawyer. Now he gets all CDs in the mail and stuff like that. He's a professor. And then a friend of mine was looking for a real estate lawyer in L.A. and came across a guy named Jason Flom. So, of course, I'm going to have to call that guy. And I just can't wait to call his office and be like, hi, is Jason there?

They go, yeah, who's calling? I go, Jason Flom. They go, no, no, no, this is, and then it'll be a whole Abbott Costello thing, right? But I have to hire that guy just to do something because just so I could say, hey, Rich, call my lawyer, Jason Flom. It'll be fantastic. And then I want to organize a get-together for at least the three of us. Or if there are any other Jason Floms's out there listening, let me know.

DM me or something. And, yeah, let's get a Jason Flom support group going or maybe go out and all go camping together or something. That would be a hilarious event. It would be fucking epic. It would be amazing. Yeah, man. All right. But the animal rights stuff, tell me about that.

So that's a more recent passion of mine. Several years ago, I became involved with an organization called VetPaw. VetPaw is Veterans Empowered to Protect African Wildlife. So it's V-E-T-P-A-W.org. And it's a group of U.S. military veterans who are on the ground in Africa, saving rhinos and elephants. And, you know, it's a win-win-win because while they're there, they're training the African park rangers in U.S. military tactics. They're using counterintelligence to find spies and they're, you know, in these networks because these poachers are, you know, we're going to have no rhinos left in five years.

There's going to be no rhinos. It's an unimaginable thing, right? And elephants don't have that much longer. Maybe they have another 15 years after that. What is the current rhino population? I think the current rhino population in Africa is less than 15,000. And, you know, there's three a day being poached. So the math isn't good. And, you know, they're being poached for their horns, which, you know, which are used in this, you know, they call it traditional Chinese medicine.

The fact is, or Asian, you know, whatever, it's witch doctors. Rhino horns are made of the same stuff as your fingernails. It's keratin. They have no magical properties. There's no medicinal value. They belong to rhinos. But the idea is that it enhances your virility. Yeah, if you mix it with Viagra, it does.

And that's what they do. And it's ridiculous. Or they just, some idiots, you know, maybe they're insecure morons. They have, you know, they take a rhino and they put it on their desk. And they think it makes them look tough or whatever the hell it is. It's so horrible. So these guys are balancing, you know, the odds and giving these rhinos a fighting chance. So we're providing meaningful employment for U.S. military veterans.

We're saving the lives of these African rangers and potentially saving a species. And I love rhinos. I'm about to post a rhino picture actually today because it's throwback Thursday. So I'm going to post a picture of me and the rhinos. And I actually wrote a book recently called Lulu is a Rhinoceros. Yes, kid's book. Yeah, I wrote a kid's book with my daughter called Lulu is a Rhinoceros. It's about my bulldog who's actually a rhinoceros trapped in a bulldog's body.

So it's about her struggle for acceptance in a world where she's judged by her physical appearance instead of what's in her heart. And it's doing really well. I'm very, very excited about it. We have a lot of exciting things in the works with that book. But check it out. It's on Amazon and Barnes & Noble. Lulu, L-U-L-U, Lulu is a rhinoceros. So yeah, so vet paw is a labor of love for me. And I don't eat meat. I don't want to do you know, try to be a, you know, leave less of a negative footprint, you know, any way that I can. How long have you been vegan then?

Well, I'm vegetarian. I'm not vegan. But, you know, and I still eat some fish. I need to, you know, really eliminate that. But I'm getting there. It's only been going on for a few years. And so I don't judge anybody else by their habits because I used to do it, you know. But I think if people could, you know, look, the latest UN report on climate change says that if we don't, I mean, we have to take drastic measures or we're not going to survive as a species.

Not very long either. It's this century. And one of those is we have to, you know, cut down on meat by 30% as a species because it's the number one problem in climate is the meat industry. And so, and it's simple. So, yeah. So I'm getting there. And I think if people are like, oh, that's too much for me. I can't give it up.

I love a steak. I love this. Then just eat less of it. And if you can, eliminate pork. Pigs are so smart. They're such amazing animals. They're the smartest animals. Other than dolphins and whales, elephants and monkeys, and there's only certain monkeys,

pigs are the smartest animals that there are. They're much, much smarter than dogs. And, you know, and yet we allow them to be tortured every minute of their miserable lives, just so they can be then butchered, you know, slaughtered and butchered so we can eat them for what, five, 10 minutes? I love bacon. Don't get me wrong. I just don't eat it. And now there's all these great vegetarian options, you know? Yeah, it's getting better and better. That New York Times article, though, what was it like a week ago, was pretty shocking and stunning. About the climate? Yeah. Brutal. And by the way- It's like we shouldn't be talking about anything else other than that. No, but we don't deal with long-term threats,

the existential threats. The human brain doesn't work well that way. And by the way, my new addiction is these things called fruffalo wings. Have you tried them? No, what is that? Oh my God, they're vegan chicken wings. I should know about that. I don't know about that. Oh my God, fruffalo wings. Trust me. I'm not being paid by them. Maybe somebody will listen and go,

hey, let's send this guy some fruffalo wings. They're delicious. You put them in the freezer, take it out, it takes five minutes to cook. You mix it with a little spinach or broccoli or something. I can't cook at all, but you cook these things, and I'm telling you, I don't even care if you're hungry. It's so delicious that it's scary. Yeah.

It has the buffalo sauce on it. All right, well, I'll check it out. Yeah, it's great. We got to start winding this thing down, but there's no way I'm letting you out of here without telling me a couple good music industry stories. Oh, my God. We don't have time to like track your entire career. I feel like I could do a whole other podcast with you on that.

But for people that are interested, that conversation that you had with, what's his name? Lefkowitz? Oh, by the way, we just got another denomination. Wilbert Jones in Louisiana, the Innocence Project of New Orleans just got another victory. I just happened to glance at my phone and there it is. Wilbert Jones, welcome home, buddy. I hope to get to meet you soon. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's cool. Wilbur Jones, welcome home, buddy. I hope I get to meet you soon. And this is Project New Orleans, IPNO.org, IPNO.org.

So, yeah, so Left Sets, we're, yeah, Left Sets. That was great. I mean, that was a deep dive into, you know, all the some great stories about your career in music. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, you know, this business, it's not as colorful as it used to be, I guess, but, you know. Well, you've been there from, I mean, you, because you've been doing this since you were 18, almost like before, like at the very beginning of the music video era all the way to where we are right now, there's been so many incarnations of this industry. You've seen a lot of change. Yeah. I mean, look, I'm older than dirt. So, you know, I've been around.

Dude, you're like two years older than me or whatever. Well, I mean, I started this when I was 18. So, you know, July 31st will be my 40th birthday in the music industry. But yeah, it's been an amazing journey. I've been really, really lucky in so many ways to bump into a lot of great artists. I mean, the latest one is one of the most fun I've ever had, which is Greta Van Fleet. We're sort of taking over the world. Yeah, this is the new sensation. The new rock band, yeah. Robert Plant said they are Led Zeppelin, so that's the highest praise you can get. And anyway, yeah, but it goes back to, I mean, there's so many crazy stories. I'll never forget

when I was 18 years old and I started working at Atlantic, and I had never heard of ACDC, but my favorite bands were Aerosmith and Zeppelin and, of course, the Beatles and Bob Dylan and stuff. But I loved hard rock. And I found in the hallway a single of Dirty Deeds Done Dirt Cheap. And on the back was the Jack, I think. And I couldn't believe what I was hearing. I was like, oh, my God, ACDC is the answer to everything.

And then I found out they had all these albums that had been out, but they hadn't done anything. You know, they were, they were, the first three albums were, you know, stiffs, but they were, of course now they've sold millions, but you know, it was a high voltage and power age. And if you want blood, you've got it. And I would listen to those 24 seven.. And then one day I heard How Would a Hell It Come Out and Take It Off, and it had just gone gold. And I heard they were going to be in the office. And I was like, oh, my God, I have to meet them, right? So this woman named Seymour Doe, who ran the publicity department back then,

she knew how much I loved them, so she told me they were going to be in the office. They were going to be up on the 30th floor in the corporate offices. We were on the second floor. So I tried to go up to the 30th floor in the corporate offices. We were on the second floor. So I tried to go up to the 30th floor, and of course they wouldn't let me in. I was an 18-year-old kid with so much hair that I couldn't even see. And so that didn't work. So then I thought, well, I'll just wait on the second floor in case they come down here. And sure enough, they all piled out of the elevator.

They're all about 5'2". And I'll never forget Phil Rudd, the drummer, they had given him a cake, but it was in a flat box, like a pizza box. And he puts it on the receptionist's desk and he goes, I'm the pizza delivery guy. He's like, who's going to pay for these pizzas? Give me the money for these pizzas, man. What's going on?

And I was like, what the hell? And then Bon Scott comes walking right by me. So I was like, well, fuck this. You know, the original singer in ACDC. So I followed him into the hallway. I'm like, Bon, oh, my God, I got to meet you, man. Like, you're so awesome. And the way you sing, I was like, I always wondered, like, what it would be like to talk to you.

And he's like, oh, yeah, man. He thinks this is, I think people think I sing about this. He's got his hand over his nose. And then he goes, anyway, he goes, you know, I got a cocaine nose and no cocaine. You got any? And I was like, no, I don't have any. But, you know, I have cocaine nose and no cocaine. You got any? And I was like, no, I don't have any. But, you know, I have a guitar and stuff. I got a demo tape.

He went to come to my office. I go, I may have a little weed in there, you know. So he comes down. They've given me a tiny little office in the back, like a closet. And he comes in there, and I gave him my demo tape. And I showed him I had my guitar in the office. And then about an hour later, I'm walking down the hallway. I had had my thrill.

And I see him, Angus, and Malcolm knocking on this guy's door. It's a guy named Rafael Torres. They're banging on Rafael's door. And I'm sort of staying out of the way. And I hear Bond going, is Jason in there? Jason in there? And I was like,, there's Jason in there. Jason in there. And I was like, are you looking for me?

And he goes, hey, this is the corn raw. He gave me his demo tape. He's got a guitar in his office. And they were like, oh, yeah, mate. I was like, oh, yeah. And the next thing I know, Angus and Malcolm come following me into my little office. Malcolm took off. Angus sat down on my tiny little couch, picked up the guitar. It was an SG, and started playing.

So I was like, okay, it doesn't get much weirder than this, right? Or better. Or better. And then the best part is, so I said to him, I go, Angus, man, I go, I'm asking him questions about this and that. And I was like, finally, I was like, Angus, you're so young. Because he was like 19 or 20. I mean, he started off when he was really young. I go, was like, Angus, you're so young. Because he was like, you know, 19 or 20. Right.

I mean, he started off when he was really young. I go, you're so young and you're so great at guitar. I go, when did you take up playing seriously? And he goes, ah, I never took it up seriously. And I was like, ah, fuck. And so then. Because you were still harboring the rock and roll dream for yourself at that time, right? Yeah, I was 18.

The demo tape was all about, like, well, I'm going to leverage this Atlantic experience to launch my band. But then he taught me how to play a couple songs. He taught me to play Kicked in the Teeth and Riff Raff, I'll never forget. That's awesome.

I mean, I forgot how to play them, but I'll never forget the experience. So yeah, that was just one of a million stories. And the music business has been very good to me. I mean, it's up and down like anything else.

It has a lot of frustrations and a lot of misses, but, you know, the hits make up for the misses. I mean, you said you've had the opportunity to bump up against all of these, you know, amazing talents. But, you know, when I look at your career, I see somebody who has a very acute ability to discover new talent and nurture it. Like you've launched all these amazing acts from, you know, Katy Perry to Lorde. And so I'm curious, like what is it, like if you have to, if you had to like articulate like what that thing is, thing is like that, that whether it's their creativity or that aura or that promise, like, what is it that you're identifying in these people? Because in a lot of the stories that you tell, you're seeing something and then there's a committee of people who are telling you you're

wrong, right? When your instinct is telling you, no, there's something here to be nurtured. Yeah. I mean, again, I'm wrong most of the time like everybody else. Nobody bats 400 in the music business, but I do have an instinct, you know, sort of a needle in the haystack instinct. And it's served me well over the years. I mean, going back to, you know,

like I said, the days of, oh God, there's so many of them. Matchbox 20 and the Coors or Trans-Siberian Orchestra or, you know, the aforementioned. Kid Rock, Sugar Ray. Yeah, those bands. And then, you know, back in the Atlantic days, even Skid Row and, you know, some of those acts, White Lion. You know, just Tori Amos, you know, is one of the ones I'm most proud of.

And, yeah, it just goes back a long way. So, you know, I don't know. It's a lot of right place, right time, you know, serendipity, synchronicity, you know, and then a little bit of, you know, definitely luck. And then sometimes I just, you know, I don't, sometimes I manage not to fuck it up, you know. I mean, Greta Van Fleet was one of those. It just came in my inbox one day. I mean, I still have the email. And Lorde, same thing. It was just in my inbox. So, Lorde, I'll let you go, but you got to tell

this story because when I heard Lorde for the first time, I think it was my daughter that played it for me. I just thought, what is this energy, this voice? I had never heard anything. I was so moved by what she does. And as I understand it, like you discovered her when she, or you were informed about her when there was, she was just posting stuff on SoundCloud and like no one was listening. Yeah. I got an email one day from a woman named Natalia Romashevsky, who was a friend of mine who was in the business, but we didn't work together. And she worked at a jingle house.

And she used to send me music time to time, but her taste was more eclectic than mine. And she sent me an email, and the subject line was hot shit. And then it just said, unsigned New Zealand female, listen. And it had a link to her SoundCloud page. And then she wrote at the bottom, not sure if this is your kind of thing, but check it out. And I put it on, and it was Royals. And there were other songs as well. I think it was the whole Love Club EP.

And I called the tie, and I was like, what the fuck did I just listen to? She goes, I don't know. I go, where'd you get it? She goes, a friend of mine in England just sent it to me. It had 200 SoundCloud places. Wow. And so she literally just put it up, but that's how fast it traveled. It went from New Zealand to somebody forwarded it to their friend in London,

forwarded it to Natalia, forwarded it to me. And next thing I know, I was on the phone with Ella, Lorde, and her parents and her manager. And I told them, I remember that conversation. with Ella Lord and her parents and her manager. And, uh, I told them, I remember that conversation. I said, your daughter's going to win Grammys.

And, uh, she was 15 at the time. And, you know, they say there's three things that children can become geniuses at, which is music, math,

and chess. And, um, it's cause they're all based on math. And, and I believe that that album is an actual work of genius. I think it's every note on it, every word on it is as profoundly perfect as it can be. Even the title of the album.

Pure Heroine. I mean, when she told me that was the title of the album, it took me two days just to recover. I was like, that's the most genius thing I've ever heard. Like, Pure Heroine with an E on the end. And Lorde with an E on the end. lord with an e on the end and just everything about it it's like even now i'll hear one of the songs and i'll go how'd she do that like how did it even happen and that was just it was just right to say the right time i mean had i found that a few weeks later i would have been too late somebody else would have grabbed it you know

and by the way i'll tell you one one crazy thing about that because i i think this way because of synchronicity and stuff she wrote royals because she she saw a picture of George Brett in a Royals uniform, which doesn't make any sense in the first place because in New Zealand they don't play baseball. Yeah. But she did. The song comes out, goes number one all over the place, right? Giant hit in America. Bigger here than anywhere else, I think.

And the Royals, who had been perennial last place finishers, went to the World Series that year. Oh, shit, they did. And then the next year they won. So for two years they became the best team in baseball on the strength of the damn song. I mean, you can't really look at it any other way. I don't know.

And I'm the only one who thinks these things. I mean, what a beautiful gift of creation that girl is. And the fact that she could create something so magical at such a young age just makes you think that there are things at work in our world that we can't comprehend because it is a work of genius, I think. It is. And if anyone hasn't had the pleasure of listening to it yet, it's out there for you. Just go on Spotify or wherever you listen to music and check it out. It's remarkable. Last question before we wrap it up.

Greta seems to have given you hope about rock and roll. What is the state of rock and roll right now? Because for the most part, I felt like, I don't want to say rock is dead. It's such a trope, but like, where is, where are the great rock and roll bands? Rock, um, rock was dead until now. Um, and, uh, I don't know. Um, I mean, I don't know what happened exactly, but, you know, music, you know, trends ebb and flow based on who's making the best music. And, you know, for a long time there hasn't been a lot of inspiration or genius at work in rock and roll, so people go elsewhere. People don't buy music they don't like. genius at work in rock and roll, so people go elsewhere.

People don't buy music they don't like. So Greta came along, and they walk it, they talk it, they're true to it. They write it. There's no outside influences. They're just amazing kids. They're really interested in the world and and making a difference um they um you know they're not they're not social media guys they're just like their idea of a good time is going camping you know and they are uh you know and he's and he's gifted with that ridiculous voice that's just so over the, you know, off the spectrum.

And so it's just really a thrilling thing to be a part of, and it's taken off like a rocket ship. You know, and that's not hyperbole. I mean, they went from where, you know, a year ago they couldn't have sold out, you know, the table here if they were playing on the couch, to now they're selling out, you know, 10,000 seaters within a few minutes. So it's just people. It's just magic. And when it happens, it's so fun to be a part of it. Yeah.

Cool, man. Tell me what the Church of Rock and Roll is. Oh, yeah, Church of Rock and Roll. So the Church of Rock and Roll is my latest passion project. So I started this thing called the Church of Rock and Roll with the idea that I wanted to start a movement, a community that stood for the things that I believe in. So the first principle is be kind to yourself, to other people, to animals and the earth. And then it goes from there to, you know, do whatever you want with your own body as long as you don't put anybody else in harm's way. Marry who you want, what you want, when you want to.

And so it is a lifestyle brand that we're creating, which I hope will turn into a movement. You can go to churchofrockandroll.com or churchofrockandroll on Instagram and learn more about it. You can buy a shirt, you can come to our events, and ultimately we're going to be opening churches, which will be full service. You did something at Life is Beautiful with that, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. We opened it at Life is Beautiful. We did a pop-up, and Greta Van Fleet performed,

and we invited, our motto is miracles happen here, so we invited about 75 members of the Las Vegas deaf community as well as 75 people, you know, who are hearing you know, hearing people. And everyone was fitted with these haptic vibration vests that are made by Music Not Impossible. And so when the vest turned on, Pastor Nadia spoke, I spoke, vest turned on, Greta Van Fleet took the stage, and everyone got to experience music on, you know, on similar terms. So the vest just, like, vibrates with the music or puts pressure so basically it separates uh it it turns

the music turns into distinct radio frequencies that hit different parts of your body so you wear wristbands and and ankle uh bracelets and then the vests so the the music is actually separated. It's not a wall of sound. You can feel the symbol in one thing and the bass in this and the bass drum over here and this one's in your ankle and this one's in your shoulder. So you really, and we had a signer on stage for the lyrics, but it was such an amazing experience. You had these people crying and signing to each other

and jumping for joy at this amazing experience of hearing, you know, one of the greatest rock and roll bands in the world in a little club performing for them and allowing them. And with us, with Music Not Impossible and the help of Zappos, you know, who are our sponsor and our partners, bringing them an experience that they'd never had before. So that was our first miracle, but there's going to be a lot more to come. That's cool. Yeah.

So churchofrockandroll.com, get a t-shirt. He's wearing the t-shirt right now. It's dope. It's pretty dope, Matt. Pretty dope. Yeah. And you can hear music in the background if you're listening to this probably

because we're at the offices of a record company. We're at the record company. Exactly. Thank you so much. It's been a pleasure talking to you. Yeah, man. Super inspiring, the work that you do. The pleasure is mine.

Everybody can learn more about Jason at itsjasonflom on Instagram. Listen to his podcast, Wrongful Conviction. And if people want to get involved or learn more about criminal justice reform, where is the best place to direct them for that? I would say just to keep it simple, go to F-A-M-M.org. That's Families Against Mandatory Minimums. So it's F like Frank, A-M-M, Mary Mary.org. F-A-M-M.org. Or go to InnocenceProject.org.

Learn more. Get involved. Or go to innocenceproject.org. Learn more, get involved, and by all means, serve on a jury if you get called and vote. Thanks, dude. Good talking to you, man. Feel all right? Yeah, man.

Good. Cool. Peace. Pretty amazing, right? I hope you guys enjoyed that. I think it's people like Jason and Scott Harrison that remind us how much more meaningful and purposeful and engaged our lives become when we selflessly devote ourselves to an important problem or important cause. It's inspiring, and I hope it moves you to get more active, to get more involved, to find an important cause, And I hope it moves you to get more active, to get more involved, to find an important cause, a problem to solve that you can become passionately devoted to in the way that Jason exemplifies.

Do me a favor. Let Jason know how this one landed for you. You can find him at itsjasonflom.com and on Twitter and Instagram at itsjasonflom. He's pretty active on Instagram. So check that place out first. And as always, check the show notes on the episode page at richroll.com to expand your experience of this conversation beyond the earbuds.

If you are looking for nutritional guidance, again, check out our meal planner, the Plant Power Meal Planner, meals.richroll.com. When you go there, you're gonna find thousands of plant-based recipes. When you sign up, you fill out this form with all your preferences your allergies how many people you're cooking for what your budget is and basically you get delivered this very personalized customized catalog of recipes that i think are going to change your life they're delicious they're

nutritious they're everything you need. They integrate with grocery lists and grocery delivery in most US cities. We have amazing customer support available seven days a week, experts who can answer all your questions. And you get all of this for just $1.90 a week when you sign up for a year. Super affordable, really proud of that.

So to learn more and to sign up, go to meals.richroll.com or click on Meal Planner on the top menu on my website. And if you would like to support our work here on the podcast, there are a couple simple ways to do just that. Tell your friends about your favorite episode. That's the best thing. Share the show on social media, subscribe on Apple Podcasts, on Spotify, on YouTube, on Google Podcasts, leave a review on Apple Podcasts, and you can also support the show on Patreon at richroll.com

forward slash donate. I want to thank everybody who helped put on the show today. Jason Camiolo for audio engineering, production, show notes, interstitial music, Blake Curtis and Margot Lubin for graphics, DK for sponsor, relationships, and theme music, as always, by Analema. Thanks for the love, you guys. See you back here soon, shortly, with another episode with Lindsay Vaughn, the world's greatest skier. She's coming on the podcast. It's a good one. Until then, be grateful for your life. We're alive. We're sharing this spinning blue globe together. There's a lot to be grateful for. I'm grateful. I hope you are as well. And try to find a way to express that, to give of yourself in service to others. Peace. Thank you.