The Rich Roll Podcast - Nathan Runkle Has Mercy for Animals — The Power of Compassion To Make A Difference

Episode Date: December 18, 2017

Reared on a farm in rural Ohio, Nathan Runkle's connection with farm animals runs deep. So deep, he always knew his life would center around the protection and care of these sentient beings. After a local farmed animal abuse case involving a piglet slammed headfirst into a concrete floor during an agriculture project at a nearby high school, Nathan founded Mercy For Animals to give “food” animals a much-needed advocate in his local community. He was just 15 years old. Today, Nathan is the very person he was always meant to be: a world renown animal rights advocate; a nationally recognized speaker; and the man who has tactfully shepherded Mercy For Animals from that high school project into a leading international force in the prevention of cruelty to farmed animals and the promotion of compassionate food choices and policies. Named one of the country’s “Top 20 Activists Under 30 Years Old” and the youngest person ever inducted into the U.S. Animal Rights Hall of Fame (he was 25), Nathan has been featured in hundreds of prominent media outlets and has spent decades working alongside elected officials, corporate executives, heads of international organizations, academics, farmers, celebrities, and film producers to pass landmark legislation and implement animal welfare policy changes. Nathan is also the author of the new and aptly titled, Mercy For Animals. A fascinating call-to-action memoir, the book chronicles Nathan’s personal story from grassroots activist to global animal rights leader while elucidating the history and current state of U.S. factory farming and animal welfare; the environmental and human health implications of food policy; and the compassionate future he envisions. Today I go deep with someone who always knew exactly who he wanted to be and what he wanted to do with his life. We dig into Nathan's early interest in animal welfare, the founding of MFA in his teens and the undercover work that followed. We discuss the current state and implications of factory farming on animal, human and planetary health. And we review the regulatory landscape that governs our food systems and the implications of the clean meat movement on the future of food. But ultimately, this is a conversation about being who you are. It's about turning compassion into action. It's about the ethical and environmental implications of our daily food choices. And it's about the power we all hold to create change and forge a more compassionate and sustainable world for generations to come. For the visually inclined, the video version of the podcast is also available on YouTube. I sincerely hope you enjoy the exchange. Peace + Plants, Rich

What's going to save us or kill us is the choices that we all make. The choices that we make in our everyday food choices, but also the choices that we make whether we're going to become part of the solution or not. Whether we're going to find our own unique voices and skills and talents and use our resources in a way that is moving us towards a humane and sustainable future or moving us in an accelerated path to destruction. That's Nathan Runkle, and this is The Rich Roll Podcast. The Rich Roll Podcast. Hey, everybody. How's it going?

What's happening? How are you? Welcome to the show, to my podcast, the show where each week I dive deep with the most interesting trailblazing thought leaders across a wide swath of specialties, including wellness, fitness, medicine, mindfulness, addiction, recovery, sports, entertainment, athletics, entrepreneurship. And in the case of today's guest, social advocacy. My name is Rich Roll. I am your host. And today I'm sitting down with Nathan Runkle. Nathan is an animal rights advocate. He is the founder and executive director of Mercy for Animals,

which is an organization that he founded when he was just 15 years old that has grown into this amazing leading international force in the prevention of cruelty to farmed animals and the promotion of compassionate food choices and policies. Nathan is a nationally recognized speaker. He's presented at many a prestigious university and conference. He's been featured in hundreds of prominent television, radio, and newspaper outlets, and has spent decades working alongside elected officials, corporate executives, heads of international organizations, academics, farmers, celebrities, and film producers, all to pass landmark legislation and implement animal

welfare policy changes. Nathan was named one of the country's top 20 activists under 30 years old. And at the age of just 25, he became the youngest person ever inducted into the U.S. Animal Rights Hall of Fame. And he's got a new book out. It's aptly titled Mercy for Animals. And it not only chronicles Nathan's very interesting personal story as a grassroots activist, but it also provides a quite compelling look at the history and the current state of animal welfare and the industrial complex known as factory farming and the implications of factory farming on not only animal well-being, but planetary well-being, environmental well-being, and human health as well.

Got a couple things I want to say about Nathan and this conversation before we dive into it, but first... We're brought to you today by recovery.com. I've been in recovery for a long time. It's not hyperbolic to say that I owe everything good in my life to sobriety. And it all began with treatment, an experience that I had that quite literally saved my life. And in the many years since, I've in turn helped many suffering addicts and their loved ones find treatment. And with that, I know all too well just how confusing and how overwhelming and how challenging it can be to find the right place and the right level of care, especially because unfortunately, not all treatment resources adhere to ethical practices. It's a real problem. A

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And they have treatment options for you. Life in recovery is wonderful, and recovery.com is your partner in starting that journey. When you or a loved one need help, go to recovery.com and take the first step towards recovery. To find the best treatment option for you or a loved one, again, go to recovery.com. Okay, Nathan, Nathan Runkle. This conversation is great. It tracks Nathan's personal story as a guy who really knew what he wanted to be and what he wanted to do with his life from a very early age.

I think as far back as he can even recall, again, founding Mercy for Animals in his early teens. And we discuss all kinds of things. We discuss the current state and implications of factory farming on animal, human, and planetary health. We talk about his undercover work. We talk about the regulatory landscape that governs our food systems. And also, we get into the implications of the clean meat movement on the future of food. And that's a really fascinating discourse.

So, with that being said, without further ado, let's talk to Nathan. Nathan, it's super nice to have you in the podcast studio. Thanks for making the trip out. Excited to talk to you. It's beautiful out here. Yeah, it's my honor. Thanks. Good. Well, there's so much to unpack here. But first, before we even get into it, I wanted to hear a little bit about you being honored by the L.A. City Council the other day. Yeah, it was quite an honor. I have been at a lot of government buildings, usually outside protesting things. They actually let you in the front door. Yeah. Or, you know, fighting charges for being arrested for fighting on behalf of animals. So to be honored by the city of Los Angeles for my nearly two decades of work was pretty phenomenal.

And they said some really nice things about me and the organization. LA has led the way in many regards for animal protection issues. The same city council that gave me this award voted unanimously to ban bull hooks, these weapons that are used against elephants and circuses that really was the beginning of the end for circuses in Los Angeles and the US, across the US. So yeah, it's nice to be recognized. That's cool. And like Eric Garcetti was there and everything. He was, yeah. The photo

op. I got the photo op with the mayor. Yeah. You're legit now. Yes. It's all come full circle for you. It's amazing. Well, let's go, let's go back to the beginning. I mean, your life as an animal rights activist is not a bandwagon that you jumped on because it was vogue. I mean, this is like born and bred and heavily wound into your DNA from almost day one for you. I mean, it's crazy how far back this goes with you. I think it very well could be in my, my DNA. I talk in the book about the fact that I was delivered by a veterinarian. Um, my dad, Mark graduated vet school from OSU and, um, met my mom at a horseback riding camp that my dad used to run. So both of my parents were very hands-on with animals. And for me, I have a fly friend

who knows that he's not going to be attacked. Very curious about what's happening here. But for me, being born on a farm in rural Ohio, a village of less than 2,000 people, I was surrounded by animals from my earliest childhood memory. And I always was drawn to them. I always loved animals. I could always sort of put myself in their place and imagine even for a moment what life must be like for them. and even for a moment what life must be like for them. And that instilled a great level of empathy within me for all animals.

So that was sort of the basis. And then this fly really is quite interested. I don't know what to do about that, but we'll work it out. Yeah, I mean, I think you, you just came out of the womb, very sensitive to that. Almost like it's a past life thing. Like, you know, there was never any question about what your life was going to be about. It's true. It's true. And, you know, reflecting back on, on starting the organization, uh, when I was 15 and becoming a veteran when I was 11, it all just seems like it was always meant to be.

And people will say, oh my gosh, that was so young. That's so amazing. For me, it never felt like that. It just always felt like a natural calling. I was always being pulled in that direction. It wasn't really a choice. It was the only option. Right. The calling.

The calling, yeah. And your parents, particularly your mom, was super supportive. I mean, it seems like from the book, you know, she was your champion from day one. Yeah. And I was fortunate enough to have two parents who I think their sort of philosophy on raising children, my sister and I, was it's your life, make your decisions, and we'll be here to support you. And being a vegan or becoming vegan, starting an animal rights organization, I think was something that my mother, at least initially, was very proud of.

I think it took my dad a while to sort of come around and fully understand the scope of the work and why it was so meaningful. But, yeah, a lot of pride from the family. So you grew up on this farm in rural Ohio coming from a long line of Ohio farmers that date back, you know, generation after generation. So you grew up with all these animals and you're the kid who's, you know, bringing home every wounded animal you can find. And we have Caesar the rat who becomes your best friend. And so you're that guy, right?

From the beginning. From the beginning. And around livestock animals from a very early age too, but it was a very different time in terms of how those animals were raised and treated. That's right. So I would rescue birds that would fall out of trees. I'd find feral cats in the barn and we'd get them adopted. There were just always animals around that I was sort of nurturing and taking care of. And Caesar, the rat that you mentioned, was this rat that I rescued from our neighbors who bred

animals to be used in laboratory experiments. And he came home with me when I was six years old, and he would sit on my shoulder and just became my best friend. And it was Caesar who really taught me that all animals have personalities and minds. They feel loneliness and joy and they have a sense of curiosity and they crave freedom. It's not just dogs and cats. And I would, I would have friends come over and I would be so excited for them to meet Caesar because he was so important to me, but most of them would be really sort of terrified of him. And they would shriek in horror at the sight of his tail. Like people couldn't get over the sight of a rat's tail. And so at this young age, I started to see that we bring a lot of prejudice to the table with animals and we

arbitrarily call some pests and others pets. And so Caesar challenged that notion for me of why we extend our consideration for some animals, but not others. Yeah. Speciesism is a very bizarre, weird, psychological phenomenon. And as somebody who was raised around pigs and cows and these animals had names, it was not unusual for you to observe the bond that transpired between human and animal, but that didn't extend to the rat, right? So it's kind of your first exposure to that idea

and that differentiation that we kind of psychologically and mentally have, which is weird. But the thing, you know, this whole kind of path that you're on seems to have crystallized around this one event that takes place around a dissection. That's right. So can you like walk us through that story? Yeah. So I was 15 years old and again, farming community, 2000 people at the high school, there's an agriculture class and the teacher of the class is a pig farmer. His name's Mr. Jenkins and he raises about 11,000 pigs. So he has a very large scale operation that he's running.

Now, one May morning in 1999, Mr. Jenkins decided that they're going to do a dissection project and he's going to kill some baby piglets on his farm to use. Now he arrives to the school with this bucket filled with baby piglets that are supposed to be dead. He goes into the classroom, he sits the bucket down, and a student walks over and notices that one of the piglets is still alive. In fact, she's standing on top of the others

in this bucket. So the teacher instructs the student to do something about it. He grabs the piglet by her hind legs and slams her head first into the ground. Now, this is a senior in the class who did part-time work on Mr. Jenkins' pig farm. Now, this piglet still didn't die. Her skull was now fractured. She was bleeding out of the mouth. She was just in horrible distress. So a few of the students were just sickened by what they had

seen. They took this baby piglet and they left the classroom. They went down the hall to another teacher's room. Her name is Molly Fearing, and she was a first year teacher at the school. She was known as being the vegetarian who cares about animals. So Molly, with this baby piglet cradled in her arms, left the school and went to a local veterinarian about 10 minutes away and had the piglet euthanized. Molly's next step was to the sheriff's department where she said, look, this piglet was just killed in this horrible way. There should be animal cruelty charges filed. And eventually charges were filed against Mr. Jenkins, not the student himself.

It went to court and it was a big deal in this agriculture community, as you could imagine. Right, it becomes this big news story that like kind of polarizes your town. Right, so it's in the paper. I mean, local TV stations are doing stories about it. There are letters to the editor of the local papers. It's just, you know, the tensions are rising. And the first day of that trial, the benches are packed at court with pig farmers that show up to rally behind Mr. Jenkins. They don't want animal advocates telling them what to do.

They don't want, you know, this type of criticism for their practices. In the very first day of that trial, those charges were dismissed. And the reason that they were dismissed is because in Ohio, like at least 30 other states, if something is considered quote standard agricultural practice, it's exempt from cruelty prosecution. And this practice of slamming piglets into the ground headfirst is standard practice. It's deemed legal and we still find it all across the country when we go into factory farms. So that case illustrated to me that there needed to be an organization that would give a voice to farmed animals. And it was really clear to me that if this had been a puppy or a kitten, the outcome would have been very different of that. It wouldn't have been tolerated. There would have

probably been perhaps jail time. Certainly psychiatric evaluation would have been suggested, probably a prohibition of owning animals. But because it was a piglet, it was just deemed common business standard practices. Right. Like if a teenager or a preteen did that to a dog, they would say, this is the, you know, this is, you know, this kid's a potential serial killer. Right. You know what I mean? Like we should pay attention to what this kid is doing. And it's interesting, the differentiation and the treatment and the way we think about these things. And also the lack of, you know, defined terms when it comes to standard agricultural practices, right? Like, what does that mean?

It casts this broad net and so much can fall underneath that. And that's still, you know, a battle that I know, you know, you and MFA are waging. you know, a battle that I know, you know, you and MFA are waging. It's true because what it does is it hands over the authority to decide what is acceptable and what is legal to the very industries and individuals that profit off of these animals. And so they're always going to do what's the cheapest and the fastest not what is in the best interest of the animals so to me it's similar to handing over authority to chemical companies to decide what's an appropriate amount of toxic chemicals to put into the groundwater or you know into the air like most people would consider that to be ridiculous there has to be some sort of regulation or oversight, but for

animals, that's what's happening. Right. Yeah, totally. So you're, you're how old at this point? 15 or 15. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. I can't even drive yet. Yeah. And, and, uh, there's no Facebook or social media yet. None of that's online yet. Um, although it was soon to come, right? Because you're young. But it's interesting that not only are you kind of carrying this frequency of already, you know, pursuing this path and being interested in this world, this huge thing happens that you find yourself right in the middle of. It's like this, you know, perfect storm of events from which to birth, you know, mercy for animals, which you created at age 15, which I did not know. I mean, that's, you know, perfect storm of events from which to birth, you know, mercy for animals, which you created at age 15, which I did not know. I mean, that's, you know, at 15, you create this

organization. Now you have, what do you have? 130 employees in like 60 countries or something. How many countries? Six countries, six countries, big ones. Yeah. I mean, this was, this was created when you were 15 years old. It's unbelievable. Yeah. It is a little bit unbelievable. It's been my life's work. It's been 18 years now since starting the organization. But it has been the most fulfilling work, the most meaningful work, challenging work. But, you know, I, the and, and obviously there are so many people that are part of the organization. I'm, you know, one person sort of holding space and,

and doing what I can for it. It's, it's, it's, the organization is made up of, you know, thousands of volunteers, thousands of people that donate money, undercover investigators, like it's, it's a, it's a wide network of really incredible individuals, but the progress that we've helped, um, push forward is, is, um, really shifting the game for farmed animals. explain the mission statement of Mercy for Animals and also to try to contextualize the role of MFA in comparison to the other organizations out there like PETA and Compassion Over Killing and Humane Society, you know, and the like. So the mission of Mercy for Animals is to prevent cruelty to farmed animals and promote compassionate food choices and policies. So we do that through four program areas. One is undercover investigations. And this is one of the things that we're most known for sending people into factory farms, slaughterhouses,

livestock auctions, hatcheries, wired with hidden cameras, and then working sometimes for months on end and documenting how these animals are crammed in cages where they can't turn around, mutilated without painkillers, separated from their families, have their throats low while they're conscious in slaughterhouses. And using that evidence to then support our other program areas. The second being legal advocacy. then support our other program areas. The second being legal advocacy. So one enforcing the very, very few bare bones state laws that are on the books to protect farmed animals, but more importantly, pushing for stronger laws. Uh, you know, as I said, we have these common farming

exemptions that mean that you can essentially do anything to farm animals as long as a lot of people are doing it. Things that would be illegal if they were dogs or cats. And we have most of the animals kept in confined systems where they can't engage in natural behaviors. They have no access to the outdoors. So pushing for more legal protection for these animals. The third area is corporate outreach. So getting big companies like Walmart and McDonald's to end the worst forms of abuse that animals endure on factory farms, adhering to the internationally accepted five freedoms, like freedom from hunger and thirst, pain and discomfort, freedom for natural movement, those types of things. But in practice, that meaning an end to battery cages for egg-laying

hens where five, six, seven birds are kept in cages the size of a file cabinet drawer, can't spread their wings, can't walk, can't perch, roost, dustbathe, anything natural. Ending the confinement of mother sows in gestation crates where they can't turn around and confinement of baby calves in veal crates., ending the mutilation of animals. So no tail docking, no castration without pain relief, and changing the genetics of these animals. These animals are now really Frankenstein animals. They've been bred to grow so large and so fast, they can't even walk naturally oftentimes. And ending the really horrific slaughter of chickens, which have no federal protection at slaughter. There's not a single federal law for any farmed animals during their

lives on the farm. Right. I don't want you to just gloss over that fact, because that's really kind of amazing and illustrative of where we are. I mean, there's a bunch of state laws, and those state laws vary, of course, but there's no federal legislation on how we regulate how these animals are treated, which is, it just seems weird and bizarre. It is. So no federal regulation for how farmed animals are treated on the farm. There are two laws, one regarding transportation, which is the last, you know, day or so of the animal's lives. And that law is just so poorly enforced and almost meaningless. Right. Like 28, they can't be in a truck for longer than 28 hours or something like that.

That's right. That's right. And then there's the Humane Methods of Slaughter Act, which completely exempts 98% of the animals that are killed for food, land animals, almost all, because it doesn't include fish either. So that, that basic law, uh, says that these animals are supposed to be rendered unconscious before their throats are slit. But for, for birds, the typical way in which they're killed is they're dumped out of crates onto these moving conveyor belts. Workers snap them into shackles by their fragile legs. Many of them have broken bones and been bruising. And then they go through an electrified vat of water, which paralyzes the birds. And then they

have their throats slit by a spinning blade. And a lot of these birds are still alive when they go into scalding tanks of water. The USDA USDA on their own estimates, which are entirely, you know, too low say that at least a million animals a year are scalded alive at the slaughter house. Um, and then the fourth program area is education work. So this is really focused on informing, informing people about where their food comes from and who they're eating and the fact that that farmed animals again they have rich emotional lives they're intelligent they they matter their their lives matter the treatment of them matters and that we can we can make compassionate food choices when we sit down to eat so a lot of our education work is based on promoting a

plant-based diet, encouraging people to crowd meat off of the plate and really eat plants as a way of sparing animals from the suffering that we're talking about. Right. And why did you decide to focus exclusively on farmed animals? focus exclusively on farmed animals? Well, they are the 99%. You know, we talk so much about companion animals and dogs and cats. Half of us share our homes with them. Half of those animals will receive Christmas gifts this holiday season. You know, we spend billions of dollars on their care and elective surgeries. We live in a world and in a country of people who love animals. But really, when people say that, they're mostly talking about dogs and cats because those are who we know as individuals and those are who are most present in our lives. We come home to them.

But when we're really talking about animals, we're talking about farmed animals. When we're really talking about animals, we're talking about farmed animals. 3,000 times as many farmed animals are killed in the United States than dogs and cats are euthanized in shelters. 3,000 to one. We're talking about over 9 billion of them every single year in the U.S. That's almost 300 every second. So why farm animals? Because, because all of these animals matter and we only have so much time and resources and energy. So we should direct it to where there's the most suffering and where we have the opportunity to do the most good.

When you look at factory farming and the number of farmed animals, I mean, the statistics really are staggering. I mean, 9 billion in the U US alone, and that doesn't include fish, right? So it could be, you know, because they do that by weight and not by individual. And globally, you had estimated somewhere between 50 to 100 billion land animals alone. Right. It's insane, right? It's insane. So one of the things I thought was really interesting about your book is you kind of give this primer, this history of how factory farming evolved. Like nobody is super enthusiastic about factory farming, but this is the world in which we live and this is how we've created a way to feed the planet. But I think it would be instructive to kind of take a step back and look at how we got here as a way of contextualizing how perhaps we can solve this problem and create better ways that flies back the fly is back with a vengeance well you know i i think like a lot of things throughout history

um our ancestors were trying to do the best that they could with what they had under the current circumstances or under the circumstances that they were living in. So I'm not here to condemn those that came before me. I think they were doing what they thought was necessary. But certainly in this day and age with a global population racing towards almost 10 billion by 2050 and the threats of climate change and all of the knowledge that we have, it's clear that the old way of doing things just isn't going to be sustainable for us. Not to mention it's just completely cruel and inhumane to the animals that are victims of it. But, you know, we, people didn't always eat this much meat, you know, this is a relatively new phenomenon, um, throughout human history and, you know, factory farming as we know it is something that my great-grandfather was in the middle of when he raised pigs the way that a lot of people still think pigs are raised out in the field. And I talk about it in my book, how it was in that time in the early 1900s when these factory confinement systems started to come about

in the U.S. These things like gestation crates and like faring crates. And my great-grandfather said, I'm not going to use them because they're too hard on the sows. But, you know, beginning of World War I, there was a push to need to produce a lot of food and a lot of protein. And there was this push to produce a lot of chicken, especially, specifically. And with that, at the same time, you know, around the 40s or so, we started seeing places like McDonald's and KFC, you know, rise. And so, you can look at

a chart of meat consumption in the United States and you can see just this incredible spike in meat consumption and the slaughter of chickens, mostly chickens, starting back in the 60s or 70s or so. It was just this dramatic incline. So it was taking these factory models and taking animals from the outdoors, putting them inside, giving animals vitamin D and things so that they wouldn't naturally live in because they're, they're too filthy and it's too stressful. And now we, you know, start feeding animals, these routine, um, you know, uh, non-therapeutic antibiotics. And of course we all know the problems with that now as well with, you know, super bugs and, but some say at least 70% of antibiotics now being fed directly to farm animals. So it's just a total mess. It's a, it's a system that's out of control and it's

not sustainable on every measurable level that we look at. So again, I, I, and part of writing the book was a lot of reflection about the history of how we got here. But I think that we have an opportunity to be really intentional about what the future of food looks like. And I talk about that in the book too. Right. And we're going to get to that. Yes. The pioneering clean meat movement, which is super fascinating. And as you probably know, I had Bruce Friedrich on to talk about that in the past. So, yeah, and I love talking about that stuff. But in the context of factory farming, give us a lay of the land of what we're currently kind of looking at in terms of how the typical cow and chicken are treated. Yeah. So there are really two main breeds of chickens

that are used. And one is the egg-laying chicken, the white leghorn. And they have been bred to be rather small birds who produce a lot of eggs. So the modern chicken that's used for food production or eggs originate from jungle fowl from Southeast Asia. And in nature, these birds would lay about two clutches of eggs a year, so about two dozen eggs the entire year. They'd spend much of their time running around, building nests, exploring, looking for insects. Had a really rich, rich life. Would live to be over 10 years old. We domesticated these birds and started manipulating their genetics. and started manipulating their genetics.

So now for the egg-laying breeds, they lay over 200 eggs every year. And this takes a big toll on the bird's bodies because these eggs take up so much calcium for the shell and what's in them. So a lot of these birds suffer from osteoporosis and a lot of them suffer from broken bones by the time they're pulled out of their cages and are slaughtered. Right. And their legs can't really sustain the

weight, right? So they can't even really walk. So that's the broiler chickens, the meat type birds. And these are birds that have been bred through genetic selection to be really big because the characteristic that they're being bred for is breast meat or thigh meat, because that's what the companies want. And in order for that to happen, there are, of course, unintended consequences, which are the birds can't walk naturally. Studies show that about 90% of them are essentially lying down in the last few days of their lives because it's just so incredibly painful for them to walk. They have joint pain and they suffer from, um, heart problems, lung problems, similar things that you would see with really obese children, the same

sort of joint pains and everything you're seeing with these birds. Cause they are, they are babies. And if you listen to them, they're, they're essentially chirping as if they're babies because they are. They're only 45 days old when they're slaughtered. The egg-laying birds, the males, so for broiler chickens, both male and female birds are bred and they're kept in these huge windowless sheds

packed in there by literally tens of thousands, living in their own excrement. They suffer from sores on their legs, on their breasts, blisters. They really don't have access to natural light. And they do that intentionally so that the birds will grow faster. So they don't even have a natural activity schedule. They grow faster without the light? Because they don't want them moving around as much because, you know, when there's... Expanding any energy.

That's right. That's right. They just want them to eat, grow, and go to slaughter. That is the business model for these broiler operations. that is the business model for these broiler operations. They're, they're then taken to the slaughterhouse and are killed in the way that, that we discussed earlier. Now on the, the egg laying side, it's only the females that are used the males because they're not this breed that grows really large and they don't produce eggs. They're useless. So they are killed right away. And I tell the story in the book about an investigation

at Highline Hatchery, which is one of the largest hatcheries in the entire world. They hatch hundreds of thousands of birds every single week. And we documented what happens to all of these males. And what happens is there are these people called sexers and they, there are these conveyor belts with the chicks on them. And it gets to this area where there are these people called sexers and they, there are these conveyor belts with the chicks on them. And it gets to this area where there are people that sit around and their job all day is to grab chicks by their wings, look and see if they're male or female, and then toss them in one of two directions. One is where the females go and the other is a chute. And they go down this chute and then the conveyor belt takes them into this room that most people can't get into,

and what's in that room is a huge macerator where the conveyor belt of the birds are dropped into, and then they're ground up alive. So the males are just ground up right away. They're ground up alive, yeah. Yeah, that's how they're killed, and it's just all day there's just chicks being dumped into this macerator, and in some ways they're the lucky ones because the fate is so horrible for,

for the females. So if they go, if they're female and they go down the other chute, they, um, will have their beaks burned off, uh, either with a hot blade or with a laser. And then there'll be trucked off to a facility where they'll be put in these tiny cages that are stacked on top of each other. They'll never feel the grass under their feet. They'll never see sunlight. They'll never breathe fresh air. And they live in these cages for usually about two years.

And then their egg production starts to decline and they're considered worn out. And they're also killed. Sometimes they're thrown into gas carts right there on the farm. They're gassed with CO2. Sometimes they're sent and slaughtered for low grade products like chicken soup or something. And what happens to the masticated chickens and the feces and the waste? Like how is that managed? Well, it's similar to all factory farms and pig farms and dairy farms are huge, you know, literal polluters in the sense that the waste of these animals is

not regulated in the same way that human waste is. And, you know, you have a situation where, for example, with cows and pigs, they produce, you know, more waste, one animal than perhaps, you know, multiple humans would be producing. And they'll go into these huge, essentially manure lagoons. And they will sit there collecting, you know, bacteria. It's a huge environmental hazard. They try to spray some of it on nearby fields. Right. There was that scene in What the Health where you see that happening. That's right. And this happens all over the place. They're spraying, they're literally spraying them on fields. Like it looks like it's

fertilizer or they're irrigating crops, but it's just fecal matter and waste. Yeah. And a lot of these farms are in, you know, communities of color, you know, underprivileged communities. So there's like there are so many issues that that are really embodied in what's happening here. It becomes a socioeconomic problem. and our unused waste will get into the nearby creeks and streams and groundwater. And I talk in the book about an egg farm in Ohio. And at the time, Ohio was the largest egg producing state in the entire country. Now it's still in the top bracket. But there was the largest egg farm there called Buckeye Egg Farm. And it was run by this man named Anton Polman,

who was actually banned from owning chickens in Germany because of cruelty to animals. But Ohio and the U.S. said, hey, come on over. We want you to build your operation here. So he... And I'm sorry to interrupt you, but you go through kind of a laundry list of the things that he did in Germany, and it's just, it's unbelievable, right? He could just pack up and come over here and set up shop after what he had done there. Yeah. And then he did the exact same thing in the United States. So it was environmental violations, fly infestations of local schools and communities and people's property values plummeting because nobody, nobody wants to buy a house surrounded by 10 million chickens and manure and flies and, and everything from

child labor issues and violations at the farm. It's just, I mean, these are, these are dark, sad places, um, in every way that you can imagine. So, so that's, that's sort of, um, the, the aerial view of what life is like for, for hens. Um, you mentioned, uh, what life is like for, for, for cows, you know, the, the worst treatment is of in the dairy industry, actually. And a lot of people don't really think about animal cruelty in the egg industry or in the dairy industry because we think, well, you know, an animal doesn't directly need to die for that. So it must be OK as long as they're living good lives.

But the truth is that oftentimes it's just prolonged cruelty for these animals and they are slaughtered. There's not, you know, a big sanctuary where millions and millions of animals go. There's no happy pasture for these animals. So in the dairy industry, Um, so in the dairy industry, you have, again, a situation that's based off of the reproductive manipulation of animals where the males also aren't useful. So they're also considered useless byproducts. And that's where the veal industry comes from. Dairy cows used for dairy are just like any other mammal. You know, what makes us mammals

well a number of things but one is that we uh feed our young through milk um and cows are the same they they only produce milk to feed their babies not you know because for the rest of their life right not because of a dairy company wants to, you know, make profits off of them. So they have to be artificially impregnated, then give birth. Those babies, obviously, if they were drinking the milk, then there wouldn't be any milk to be sold to people. So the babies are literally dragged away, um, within a few hours of being born. Right. There's all those videos that are heart wrenching of, of the calves being separated from the mother and the mother whelping. And, you know, it's awful to watch.

It is awful to watch. And that plays itself out countless times a day in the dairy industry. Those videos aren't, you know, some exceptional thing that's happened. Somebody just, you know, filmed it, but that is, that is the emotional heartbreak that these animals suffer every single time that their babies are taken from them in the dairy industry. And, you know, I think any, any mother could relate to what that must be like on some level. Um, and I, I tell a story in the book about the sort of Sophie's Choice situation at a very small, actually, family farm in New York, where there was this cow who had given birth out in pasture,

and she had been used by the dairy farm for a number of years now. So she knew what happened when she gave birth. She knew that her baby was going to be taken away from her. And they took, they took the baby away, but she kept coming back from the field to be milked without much milk to give or to be taken really. And they didn't understand what was wrong because she seemed like she was in good health one day they followed her out into the field and and realized that she in fact had given birth to twins and that there was another calf that was out in the field that she was protecting because she knew that they would take one of her calves away from her. So she literally like hid her baby. Yeah, yeah. And she made this heartbreaking choice

of giving up one of them to save the other because she knew from past experiences what was going to happen. Right, which sheds a light on the interior lives and the intelligence of these animals. Oh, absolutely. And they remember, they think about the past, they think about the future, they plan. You know, Jane Goodall, she once said that we have to understand that we're not the only

beings on this planet with personalities and minds. And it's basic, but it's true. but it's true. So that is the beginning for these animals in the dairy industry. The females will then be kept in factory conditions where some of them will be chained by their necks. Others will just be confined indoors. About three, four times a day, they'll be taken into a milking parlor area and hooked up with electrical sucking devices. Now, a physical abuse to these animals is really extreme inside of these environments because you'll have people working inside of these operations that are tasked with moving hundreds, thousands of animals a day in a very short period of time in really brutal conditions. And so people become desensitized to what's taking place there. And violence quickly follows. They'll take out their frustration and

their anger on the animals in front of them. And we've documented at dairy farms, workers using pitchforks to stab cows, breaking their tails, using crowbars to beat them over the head, just really the most heartbreaking type of abuse that you could imagine. It's interesting, that phenomenon. And it makes you wonder, did these employees come in with that disposition or did the experience of working there and, you know, having to kind of repress, you know, their own compassionate feelings lead to that kind of behavior? You know, this is something that I really struggled with, and I abusing animals and use their place of power there to fulfill this really sort of sick desire to torture animals. We see that every once in a while. But the norm is that you have an underprivileged, vulnerable community of people,

an underprivileged, vulnerable community of people, mostly undocumented immigrants who take these jobs in factory farms and slaughterhouses. Very few people grow up wanting to work at a slaughterhouse or in a factory farm. That's not what people aspire to. So this is the work that most Americans will not take. So we have people that take these jobs, which are some of the most dangerous in the entire country.

Slaughterhouses, one of the most dangerous jobs that you can get. High rates of amputation, carpal tunnel syndrome, back injuries, everything physically dangerous. But then you also have an emotionally traumatizing job. I mean, you can imagine it is someone's job for eight hours a day to sit with a knife and slit the throat of chickens who missed the automated blade. Somebody sits there with an iPad, an iPod, you know, listening to music, slitting the throats of animals. Right. And having to sublimate that somehow day in and day out, like there's just no way that that is not taking a huge emotional toll on a human being.

Exactly. And so we see, and there's been studies done on this as well, but our investigators see all the time, really high rates of alcoholism and drug abuse, especially methamphetamines inside of these operations. So you have people, one, really physically demanding work. And then two, as you said, there's emotional trauma that they're suffering. And I talk in the book about perpetration induced traumatic stress, which is a form of PTSD where you take people who are put in positions of jobs to carry out acts of violence that they normally wouldn't do in good consciousness. And that's exactly what the jobs are at slaughterhouses. You have people who come in, take these jobs out of desperation, are filled with compassion, care about animals, but within a day or a few days, imagine what a

month or a year would do. You know, these people have to numb themselves, have to disconnect, have to not care about what they're doing and what's taking place in front of them. And there was, there's a study that looked at the Sinclair effect, this theory that Upton Sinclair put forward 100 years ago, when he noticed that there were rates of violent crime much higher around slaughterhouses than in other areas. And the research shows that that is in fact a phenomenon and you have higher rates of violent crime with homicides in some cases being carried out in the same way that animals are killed that people's throats being slit in that manner in communities where there are slaughter

houses so animals are definitely the the biggest victim in terms of number and duration of suffering, but they're not the only victims of these industries and systems as well. And to me, it's a simple question. Do slaughterhouses have a place in a civilized, moral, ethical, enlightened, conscious society? To me, the answer is no. Right. Yeah. And Upton Sinclair, what was it? 1904 when his book came out? 1906. Yeah. 1906. Yep. And that book had a huge impact. It was still taught in schools and it had, you know, it had a pronounced impact on the administration and legislation at the time. It was kind of a sensation, right? It was. And yet the long-term impact of that was unheeded, right? Because here we are today and people like yourself are putting out books on

the same subject and advocating in the way that you do. And yet it seems, although culture is shifting and we're in a new era and that's very exciting. And I have a lot of optimism around that. era and that's very exciting and I have a lot of optimism around that. You know, there's still a lot that needs to be heard that is not like it's not landing. Right. And when we talk about, you know, the oversight and the regulation and we'll get a little bit more into, you know, what that regulatory landscape looks like, it doesn't seem like anything is really being handled properly, right? Where is the oversight? Where is the USDA in all of this? And why is there not

more hands-on governance in terms of policing what is okay and what isn't, at least in the construct of accepting that this is how we're feeding the planet at the current moment? that this is how we're feeding the planet at the current moment? Well, it comes down to money and power. And the agriculture industry, and most specifically the meat industry, the dairy industry, are really powerful lobbies. And they don't want oversight, and they don't want regulation. And we're seeing that more now than ever. regulation. And we're seeing that more now than ever. And they want to be able to cram more animals in smaller cages. They want to run production speeds faster than ever. In fact,

they're trying to increase the speed of poultry slaughterhouses now. And they're already moving at a rate of every second, essentially hanging a bird. And they're trying to double the line speed. So the industry, if there is no oversight or there is no public scrutiny, would continue to go down this path. That obviously is bad for animals, but it's also bad for consumers as well. also bad for consumers as well. And, you know, we're seeing more and more of these ag-gag type laws that are being proposed, which really seek to stop the type of work that Upton Sinclair did, which led to the first two federal laws regulating slaughterhouses in our country. And, you know, these ag-gag laws, which essentially are intended to criminalize whistle blowing, they want to make it illegal to take a photograph or a video inside of a factory farm.

They are intended to intimidate people from stepping forward and really pulling back the curtain and showing people where their food comes from. And you see the meat industry and the dairy industry step forward and put their entire weight behind bills like this and then fight tooth and nail against regulations that would even require animals be able to turn around in their cages. So it's really clear, you know, where the industry's focus is. But these agate laws are dangerous to democracy as well.

It's amazing to me that they withstand constitutional scrutiny. Like, I don't understand. Like, I feel as a lawyer, like, I feel like I need to educate myself a little bit more about this world because it just does not seem like it has a place in an open democracy. I agree. To erect these laws that are preventing consumers from understanding, you know, where their food is coming from. Is there anything more fundamentally, you know, needed from a consumer than to have an educated understanding of the mechanics behind, you know, what they're getting at the supermarket. Right. You know, the, the Washington post, um, tagline right now is democracy dies in darkness. And that's exactly what the meat industry is trying to do is keep people in the dark. And so, so, so most of these ag-gag laws started popping up around 2011.

About half of the states considered them. Most of them were defeated. But big ag states like Iowa, who are bowing to the interest of the agriculture industry, not doing what consumers really want, and consumers in Iowa didn't want an ag-gag law, passed these bills. And now a number of them have been challenged in federal court as being unconstitutional, and a number of them have been overturned. And the judges have said, yes, this is a violation of freedom of speech, freedom of press. And in their ruling specifically compare Mercy for Animals investigators to Upton Sinclair. compare Mercy for Animals investigators to Upton Sinclair. And they do say exactly what you said, you know, what is more important than a right to know about where our food comes from?

So there definitely is a challenge. But to me, it says a lot about this industry, that instead of seeing the issues that animals face, and the fact that consumers oppose what they're doing, which is true. I mean, you look at national polls and over 90 percent of Americans say, yes, animals, including those raised and killed for food, should not be tortured. But then you look at what's actually happening and these animals are being tortured. So the industry has sort of two paths to go down. One is they start to address what the animals are enduring, or the other is they just try to stop the discussion. And they want to create a one-sided discussion where only they can put forward these sort of staged white glove tour images of what their facilities look like. And they want to crowd out the images that our investigators gather when industry doesn't think that they're being watched.

Right. It would be like if you went to North Korea. Yeah. And you were guided around. That's right. And shown the whitewashed version of what it's like to be there. Right. Versus the reality of what it's really like. But you said something interesting a minute ago that I didn't want to gloss over, which was that you're seeing more of these laws come online.

So my understanding was that we're kind of sounding the death knell for the ag-gag law era, but are you saying that's not the case? Well, 2011 is when a lot of them came up. There's not more this year than there had been before. And I think that the industry sort of walked away with a lot of black eyes and sort of beaten up in the press because what ag gag did is it really attracted a lot of national media coverage to what was happening in our food supply. supply and you know what what are these industries so desperate to hide most businesses are excited for the media and for customers to come and see what they do but it's it's the opposite in the meat industry and just so we're clear the way the law deals with somebody who violates one of these ag-gag laws is to

treat that perpetrator as a domestic terrorist. Yeah. And in some situations, the penalty for just snapping a photograph while someone beats a pig, for example, carries a harsher penalty than beating the animal does. Right. So they go after the documentarian and not the abuse that's actually been perpetrated. And for you, I mean, this goes back, your first sort of undercover investigation was like 2001, right? Yeah. Yeah. So I was 17 when we started, which gave me a bit of some legal cover because I was still a minor. But, you know, nowadays we have people that get hired at these facilities.

They work alongside everyone. They have high-tech camera equipment that's designed by the same people that make equipment for the FBI and CIA. But in the early days, we used a tactic known as open rescue, which started in Australia about 30 years ago. And it's a combination of investigations, animal rescue, and civil disobedience all wrapped up into one. So we would send certified letters to egg farms in the state. And we'd say, we're concerned about what's happening with the animals there. We want a tour. Will you give us a tour? We never received any responses. we never received any responses. So we would then move, move forward and we would go in at night, you know, 2am dressed in black with splunking lights on. And we would essentially go through

these unlocked doors. We weren't there to damage property. We were there to document and to help animals. So we would go in through the manure pits of these huge factory farms. Sometimes these manure pits are seven, eight feet high. And then we would climb through broken cage wire and get to the second floor because egg farms are two floors high, the manures on the ground floor, and then the second floor is where the birds are kept. And we would spend hours at a time in there documenting with handheld cameras, birds that were impaled by a cage wire, birds that were thrown away into trash cans while they were still alive, birds with broken bones. And we would take some of them with us to go to veterinarians to be treated and then to animal sanctuaries. So by doing this work, we were risking literally decades in prison.

One lawyer told us it was 30 years that we were facing for doing this work. I would still be in prison right now. The first one, after you sorted out the camera equipment, after a couple sort of naive attempts, you do this exploration, you do all this documentation, and you're still 17, right? You call this press conference and you get all this media attention and you unveil these videos and the documentation and it causes quite a stir. I mean, you're 17

and you're, I mean, that is like ballsy. I mean, seriously, that takes like a lot of, I mean, I think about what I was doing when I was 17, you know, basically, you know, creating, creating a media event around this cause that is not just important to you, but something that, you know, all consumers should be aware of. catalyzing the appropriate effect. And what I thought was interesting about that story was that so the chicken farm is coming after you, right? They're going to sue you and you're going to be the victim in all of this. But then they realized the media shitstorm that wouldn't sue from something like that. To be in open court would just give you an even broader platform to speak more vociferously about what was actually going on. And then the whole thing just goes away. Yeah.

And we did four of these open rescues. So we kept sort of pushing the envelope as years went on. We went from 2001 to 2004. And we knew that we were taking legal risk. And we knew that we were taking legal risk. It wasn't our preference to go to jail because we knew you could help more animals outside of jail than we could behind bars. But we were willing to take that risk because people didn't know what was happening. Again, this was really before the rise of social media.

So to get people to even see a few seconds of what inside of a factory farm look like, we would need to sort of take some, some pretty, um, you know, drastic measures to get the media national or local media to pay attention just long enough to put these images on the local news. So you gotta crack the code on marketing. Yeah. In a pre-social network era. Right. Interesting. Let's talk a little bit about labels.

I mean, you mentioned earlier, there is growing consumer concern and compassion around these ideas. Right. And when, you know, the average human being or consumer actually gets a glimpse at what is actually going on, they don't like it. Like we're nobody, you know, we're inherently compassionate. Like nobody wants this to be happening to the animals. We just sort of accept it. this to be happening to the animals we just sort of accept it and I think the term you use in your book is you know there's a there's a or I read an

interview somewhere where you were asked you know why do we allow this to continue and there's there's a level of willful ignorance which is a phrase you use and I think that's that's right you know there is it's not that we want it to be this way it's just that we're either uneducated or because we're so disassociated from the process of where our food comes from, that it's easy to be willfully ignorant to choose not to watch those videos. Like, you know, Oh, don't show me that. Or like scroll quickly through your Facebook feed when, you know, Nathan's latest video

comes up, you know, I'm following him because I want to know, but like, I don't really want to know, you know what I mean? Like that kind of thing. And so industry is aware of this and we live in a capitalist society. And as consumer habits begin to shift and issues like wellness and, you know, humane, the humane treatment of animals become more of a cultural priority. We have kind of stepped into that as a society to deal with it, not necessarily by redressing the cause and getting to the root of the matter, but by kind of placating people with these labels, whether it's cage-free or grass-fed. And now there's so many of them,. Some of them more worthy than others,

but it's almost so confusing now, because there's like 10 labels on every food product, like what does any of this mean? Is this real? Beyond just the picture of the pasture on the thing of eggs that makes you feel good without any meaning whatsoever. So walk us through what these labels are, the main ones, what they actually mean, the reality versus like the

proposition. Yeah. So there's a lot of what I call humane washing that's, that's happening. You have a lot of people who, as you just said, are becoming more aware of what's happening. They know that factory farming is bad, that animals suffer. They don't want to support it. Now, we believe that at Mercy for Animals, the best thing is to move towards a plant-based diet. It's really the compassionate choice that we can make. So we don't endorse any of these animal products because there is always inherent cruelty that goes with it.

Whenever you're going to make an animal a commodity and view them as a production unit their welfare is always going to be secondary or further down the line to the to the bottom line um and as you said the the labels really do vary dramatically you have some that are essentially rubber stamping what the industry is already doing. So those are labels like United Egg Producer Certified. If you see that label on an egg carton, that means that those eggs are from a factory farm and the birds are kept in cages and they can't spread their wings. It just means there's an egg in this box.

That's right. And the Primary Trade Association for the Egg Industry acknowledges that there's an egg in that box. And I talk a little bit in the book about how the initial label was called the animal care certified label that was also put on egg cartons with hens that were kept in these battery cages. But MFA and other organizations said, this is consumer fraud. You need to change this. And the Better Business Bureau got involved in the Federal Trade Commission

and they changed it to now United Egg Producer Certified. Then you have labels like American Humane Certified, which is from the American Humane Association, which is also completely meaningless. This is the same organization that's behind the No Animals Har harmed and making of this film labeling that you see on films, which has come under scrutiny because they will put that label on films where animals have died or been killed or nearly drowned, abused, just terrible

things. So what's going on over there? What is the purpose of that organization? Well, it's, it is essentially, it has become almost a front group for animal use industries. They, the American Humane Association finds themselves on the opposite end of animal welfare issues than pretty much every other animal organization. And bull hooks is an example of that. They actually came out in support of these sharp metal weapons that are used to beat elephants in circuses. No other animal protection organization would do that because it's not in the best interest of elephants. So you have an organization that has a really wonderful sounding name that has essentially been co-opted to just fall in line with what animal use industries are doing. So it's incredibly misleading. It's almost like a lobbying group.

Like these super PACs where they have these names that sound great, and you have no idea what they're actually behind. Exactly, exactly. And this American Humane Certified label is now appearing on Butterball Turkey, Foster Farm Chicken. I talk in the book about an investigation that we did at Foster Farm Chicken operations here in California that actually led to criminal animal cruelty convictions at one of these American Humane Certified facilities. humane certified facilities. So you have that on one end. And then on the other end, you have things like the whole food program where there's a tier, you know, five tier, and you can actually see what the different labels mean, you know, one through five. And then in the middle, you have cage free, which, you know, is arguably better than keeping hens in battery cages but it's a far

cry from what most people think right like what is cage free so cage free means that the birds are not kept in these individual cages that we talked about earlier but they're essentially caged by the bodies of other animals they're they're kept in these same oftentimes windowless sheds like broiler chickens or meat type birds by the tens of thousands. And they don't have access to the outdoors. And there are serious problems associated with that. You have cannibalism.

Birds can only establish a pecking order with up to about 100 other birds. That's how many birds they can recognize. They can determine who's in charge, what the social hierarchy is supposed to be. That gets much larger than that. It's chaos. And there's, there's no social order and the birds start to, to cannibalize and attack each other. So you have a lot of issues with that with, and then of course you have the male chicks that are still killed and the birds are still killed when their production declines. There's no cage-free sanctuaries either. And then you have free range, which is essentially what I just described, but the birds should have access to the outdoors. Now, the problem is that there's not very clear definitions of what that means.

So the birds might have a small amount of access to the outdoors for a large number of birds. And then you have pasture-based and sort of a varying degree of freedom that the birds are supposed to receive, but there's not very strict regulation of what the terms are or who's overseeing it. So as you can see, there are a lot of labels that are

aimed at making people feel good about what they're buying, but oftentimes they're, it's not really clear what they mean and, and what they mean is much less than what people expect. Right. I think it's super instructive what you had to say about the American Humane Association. I mean, just seeing that word humane on a label, on a box or packaging, any, you know, the average consumer would just be like, oh, it's humane. It's good. You know, it's humane. I'm good. You know, it's great. It's about guilt alleviation, right? As much as anything else. Like, as long as I see that, then I have no internal conflict.

as anything else. Like as long as I see that, then I have no internal conflict. Yeah. And, you know, I, I, I know people who say, oh yeah, you know, I only, I only eat, you know, free animals that are free ranged. And, and the truth is that's not true because it's, it's very difficult to, you know, eat on the go and eat in all these places and, and actually know where any of your food is coming from. Like it's under such sort of limited set of circumstances where you actually would be able to know where your food is coming from. And that's why I say, even if you don't have a problem eating animals and you're okay with eating animals, if they're raised under certain conditions, the truth is that it's just

not as practical to live in line with those values as it is to eat plant-based. It's much easier to eat plant-based food knowing that you're not supporting animal cruelty than pretending that you're only going to eat meat of animals raised under certain circumstances because it's just not available to people. Yeah, it's a very interesting psychological and philosophical discussion and argument to have because someone like Gary Francione would say that this sort of grass-fed movement and this explosion of at least the idea, if not the reality, of humanely raised meat is actually harming the movement because it is going to the heart of that guilt alleviation. It makes people less likely

to ultimately abandon meat or go plant-based because they feel better about the choices that they're making. Yeah. I don't believe that that's the situation that we're in for a number of reasons. One is I think we have to look at the ethics that are at hand and say the animals that are unfortunate enough to be raised into the food system, because like it or not, there are people that are eating meat. Most people are eating meat right now. And most people that eat meat aren't sitting down and thinking about the lives that these animals lived. They're going to the drive-thru. They're getting meat. You know, this is not an ethical. Came from the patty, the hamburger patty tree.

That's right. Unfortunately, it's just not on most people's radar that this isn't like at the front of their mind. So the animals that are being raised and killed in these conditions, I believe it is our moral and ethical responsibility to ensure that they are not tortured, to do what we can to alleviate the worst forms of abuse that they are subjected to. And anything short of that, I think is in line with speciesist views to say, no, we shouldn't advocate for these animals to live better lives to me is to say,

let them suffer and let them suffer in the worst way possible. And following that sort of argument, you could say, well, if it's just about argument sakes and people not feeling good about eating meat, then treat animals worse. Make sure that all of them are skinned alive. Then you can tell people that every animal is skinned alive and isn't that terrible. Then it will weight on their shoulders. But nobody would say that, hopefully, because that's so absurd. And if you look at countries where there's a higher rate of vegetarianism, especially in Western societies, these are also the places where there are higher animal

welfare standards and higher laws protecting animals from abuse. So I think when we have laws and policies that move the ball forward for how farmed animals are treated, it says these animals matter. We can't just treat them any old way. Like we have to acknowledge that they have feelings. And even if you're going to use them, they can't be treated in the worst way possible. And I think that that is a step forward in ethical evolution in our relationship with animals. It's not, it's not the end game. It's not a place where we're having a completely respectful relationship with animals by any means. But I think that it does move the needle forward. But I think the movement, and certainly Mercy for Animals does this, needs to be clear about what's actually happening.

And when there is a move of getting animals out of cages, we say, this is progress, but this is not good enough. This isn't the end game. This doesn't mean that that cage free is cruelty free, for example. And, um, and I think that there are some, some organizations that do rubber stamp and endorse these animal products. Mercy for Animals is not one of them. We never have been. We never will be because we don't need to be eating animals. And because of that, it will always be unnecessary suffering and unnecessary violence that these animals are being subjected to for our food. Where are the battle lines currently being drawn? Where is the war?

Where does it sit right now? Like, what needs to be addressed first? And where are the resources and the energy and the focus being directed? In terms of animal welfare campaigns or just the movement overall? Or just in kind of canvassing the legislative regulatory landscape of what is actually happening right now. legislative regulatory landscape of what is actually happening right now. So a lot of the change that we're seeing in terms of how animals are treated on farms is happening on the corporate level. And you have companies like Walmart that sell a quarter of the groceries in this country. They have more power to change the fate of animals than most states do. And you have McDonald's, you McDonald's buying billions of eggs every

year, et cetera. So we've been able to help drive change through corporate policies. We've gotten over 200 companies to change their policies to the tune of over 1.2 billion animals that will be affected by those policies every year. It started out with gestation crates, getting pigs out of gestation crates, then it moved to battery cages and getting hens out of battery cages. And now the primary focus for us is the treatment of broiler chickens. So again, they are like the 99% of the 99%. Like 300 a second or something like that are being killed.

Right. It's astronomical. So right now we're focused on addressing the slaughter of, of, of these birds because they're killed in a way that would be prohibited if we even killed cows or pigs in that way. So, um, trying to get it so that so that these birds are not dumped out of crates while they're alive, snapped into shackles while they're still alive, using inert gases to put the birds to sleep so they're never handled and they never have to endure that cruelty. Changing the genetics of the birds so that they grow slower and not so large, giving them access to natural

light so that they can have that, um, you know, semblance of a day and the natural energy and the natural activities that come along with that, giving them environmental enrichment. You know, these are animals with, with minds and curiosities and they should have, um, things to do with their, their days. So those are, those are some of the, the things that are being pushed forward for chickens. The next real battle is for fish. They are raised in much the same way on factory farms now. And some of these fish, it takes them a number of years to reach market weight, what's considered market weight.

So the duration of their suffering is very long. And they're kept in these concrete tanks, crowded together. You've got poor water quality. You've got mites, essentially parasite infestations that the fish suffer from. They suffer from blindness. Then you have handling the cruelty and the way in which they're slaughtered. So we're starting to lay the foundation for doing work for fish probably in the next year or so. On the legislative front, I think it's pretty exciting what's happening actually. In Massachusetts last year, voters overwhelmingly passed an initiative that would prohibit hens from being kept in cages, pigs in gestation crates, calves in veal crates.

But what was most meaningful was that it also prohibited the sale of products from animals kept in these restrictive cages. Now that initiative is coming to California and animal advocates have started gathering half a million signatures to place it on the ballot for next year which essentially builds off of prop 2 which passed in 2008 with over 63 percent of the vote and it also prohibits products from being sold in the state of california from animals kept in these tiny enclosures so it should have a you know ripple effect right that's amazing that's pretty cool yeah what do you think are the the big obstacles that you face in terms of trying

to get people to understand where you're coming from i mean you know we still have a long ways to go like i said earlier a lot of progress has been made yeah and you kind of break it down generally generationally in your book like yeah the baby boomers one percent of them were vegan or vegetarian gen x four percent millennials twelve percent so yeah there's a trend here huge trend but still you know most people not on board yeah And they say that a tipping point is 10%. So if you look at millennials, you know, it's clear that we're over the tipping point. And I'm, I am optimistic at the end of the day. And I say with the work that I do, I see the darkest side of humanity with how people can be cruel. But in the same day, I see the brightest

side of humanity. I see the kindness, creativity, ingenuity, you know, and courage that people can have to make the world better for themselves and for animals and for our environment. So I believe that that innovation will help save us from these challenges. And I talk in the book about how the meat industry is ripe for disruption. It's just outdated. It's inefficient to funnel so many grains through an animal, most of it being used just to keep the animal alive and energy, and then part of it being defecated out to get a small return, essentially. So, you know, if you look at the transportation sector, you look at what got horses off of the busy streets, pulling these, you know, heavy carriages and enduring the blistering heat and the freezing temperatures. Yes, there was ethical concern, but was henry ford and the model t that made riding horses

appear to be just so outdated and inefficient and silly and the same thing you know happened and getting and driving an end to much of the whaling um that happening. It was, you know, kerosene and other oils. And, you know, we look at the changes in how we communicate and, and, and not sending so much paper mail because we can get, you know, a million times more information on our phone. So there's, and you see what's happening in the energy space, moving, you know, towards clean energy and solar and all of those. So the same is happening in the protein space. And I know you talked about, I'm speaking with Bruce from the Good Food Institute. I talk in the book about co-founding the Good Food Institute, because I do believe that innovation in the protein space has the potential to just dramatically change the game.

Some of that in plant-based proteins, but also in clean meat, you know, taking a harmless biopsy from an animal, getting a stem cell, growing it in a suitable medium in a bioreactor or brewery, and creating real meat outside of the animals. And I consider this, as others do, the second domestication. The first 10,000 years ago, the Neolithic period, when we started domesticating animals and plants that essentially led to agriculture, that led to society as we know it today in many ways. The second domestication being cells and us, and I think it being a reflection of our ethical growth and our intellectual growth and our understanding of science so that we can get all the benefit without the harm.

And to me, that's really exciting. It's crazy times. I mean, it's literally science fiction. It's amazing what is happening, specifically with Uma Valeti and his team at Memphis Meats and what they're innovating and the momentum that they have right now. And certainly there will be, I mean, this is coming. Like this is happening, right? And there will be an acclimation curve. used to self-driving cars and how weird that is and is going to be sooner probably rather than

later yeah uh we're gonna have to overcome this weird icky feeling or sensibility that we have around eating what is ostensibly animal flesh without there ever being an animal yeah that's weird you know it's weird you know let's just say it let's not pretend that you know, it's weird. You know, let's just say it. Let's not pretend that, you know, that it's normal because it's not. But I think this is the future, as crazy as that sounds. And in many ways, it's miraculous. It's a little, I mean, if I'm being totally honest, it's like, okay, like, is this safe? Like, is this the evolution of GMOs? Like, what are we really doing here?

What are the long-term implications of human health? And I think all of that hopefully is getting addressed and studied diligently. But presuming that that gets worked out, the idea that we're going to be engineering animal flesh and can kind of attune it to make it healthier than, you know, the animals that we're raising with the less saturated fat and whatever, tweaking it and all of that, as weird as it is, that's coming online. And that has the potential to literally eradicate factory farming as we know it. Exactly.

And that's what I'm so excited about is you look, and as you mentioned, Uma and Memphis Meats, attracting investments recently from Bill Gates and Richard Branson, but perhaps most excitingly from Cargill, one of the largest meat companies in the U.S. Who are realizing that in order to survive, they don't want to be like the music industry. That's right. You get passed by, like they're going to have to get on board with this now, or they're just going to get innovated right out of business. That's right. Uh, so they see that the writing is on the wall and you know, what I tell fellow vegans is you don't need to eat clean meat. You know, if, if it's not something that you're interested in, that's totally fine. This is for the 98% of people that, that are looking for, for meat.

98% of people that, that are looking for, for meat and it's, it's, it's so good for animals, but as, as we briefly mentioned, you know, we are at a really crucial time, um, in, in our lives and human society and the health of our planet with, with climate change, with, uh, you know, racing towards fish, fishless oceans by, by 2048, like all of these things that being in the middle of this, the sixth mass extent extinction, like things are dire. We have to make some really, um, meaningful changes. And clean meat uses 50% less energy. It uses over 90% less land, 90% less water, emits 90% less greenhouse gas emissions. So it's not only sort of an ethical savior perhaps, but as well and as i said we're going to have nearly 10 billion people here by 2050 so i i think um we can't just wait for the entire population to have an ethical awakening on these issues we need to have the the sustainable

and ethical choice be the convenient choice, the default choice, you know? So when the mother in Michigan is going through the drive-through and she's getting a burger, it tastes the same, the price is the same or even cheaper, but it happens to be meat that is grown through cellular agriculture instead of animals that are tortured, you know, then I think we're starting to get to a place where real progress is being made. Or a super tasty veggie burger. Or a super tasty veggie burger. Yeah. A hundred percent. It's a race against time. Yeah. And it's interesting that, you know, we really are running out of time. Like when you really look at what's going on environmentally, like we're, we are running out of time and and it's going to be down to the wire i think i agree and and it's interesting that all of this technology is coming online now almost

like you know necessity is the mother of invention like we need it now and now it's happening can we get it up to speed in time because how else are we going to move forward? You know, factory farming, you know, we just can't continue down this path and expect to preserve our planet. We've established beyond a shadow of a doubt the damage that it's doing. And as we escalate towards 10 billion people, we can't continue to do it. And look, you know, grass-fed beef ain't going to cut it. And, you know, this idea that we're going to repasteurize, you know, arid lands through cats, I don't buy it. You know, that's not how we're going to feed the planet.

No. And like you said, we don't have to wait for clean meat to come to market. We can start eating a plant based diet right now. So we are the opposite of helpless in this situation. But as you said, it's going to be down to the wire. What's going to save us or kill us is the choices that we all make. The choices that we make in our everyday food choices, but also the choices that we make whether we're going to become part of the solution or not, whether we're going to find our own unique voices and skills and talents and use our resources in a way that is moving us towards a humane and sustainable future or moving us in

an accelerated path to destruction. And I talk in the book about some really, you know, inspiring individuals that had that aha moment, had the light bulb come on, saw what was happening. And instead of saying someone needs to do something about that, they said, I need to do something about that. I realize I am a someone. And, um, you know, that's, that's I realize I am a someone. And, you know, that's what one of my biggest hopes is from the book and just from Mercy for Animals work in general is that people Uh, whether that starts out by changing your own diet, whether that's donating to organizations that are having an impact or whether that's, you know,

starting an innovative company. I have friends that are artists that use their platform, um, to inspire people to think about what's going on. I have friends that have started vegan bakeries, you know, that show people how tasty and easy it can be. I have friends that have stayed in the business world so that they can earn to give. And they now have literally dozens of people around the world that are working full

time on behalf of animals because of that decision. So the answer to what you can do, I think is a bit different for everyone, but the truth is that we have to do something and being an advocate. And I think sort of living your values is the ultimate expression of love. It's the ultimate way of being present. You know, there's a quote that says activism is my rent for living on this planet. And to me, that's definitely true. But it's also- You're paying double rent. Fulfilling. You might need to have a top of your landlord.

Yeah, so to me, it's kind of this double win. You get to make the world a better place, but you also get to bring so much meaning into your life. And we, we live in a time where there's this kind of happiness economy and everyone is trying to figure out how am I happy? How do I become happy? You know? And I think a lot of people realize once they're down that path that, you know, a faster car or a bigger house or, you know, a nicer kitchen doesn't quite cut it. It's a matter of living a meaningful life, something that is contributing to the world in a way that's bigger than just yourself. And for me, helping animals who are really the

weakest and most vulnerable amongst us in our society is as meaningful of a mission as I could imagine. It's to me really telling how those in power treat those that are at their mercy. And certainly, you know, farmed animals literally have no choice and they have no voice in our system. So I think that when we're able to extend our circle of compassion to include those that we might know nothing about or relate to the least, we benefit from it, they benefit from it, and our entire society benefits from that. That's really beautifully put. our entire society benefits from that. That's really beautifully put. I love that you said that. And I think that the idea or placing focus or putting a lens on how this journey

has girded your life with meaning is part of the discussion that doesn't get enough attention i think you know there's a perspective that someone like yourself is a martyr you know that you're torturing yourself and and and miserable right because you're putting yourself in these dire situations yeah um for a greater cause but the truth is very different from that. And I've experienced my version of that, which is when you get outside yourself and you do align your actions with your values and you make your life about something greater than your personal agenda, that you achieve that elusive goal that you have been seeking, which is to be contented and fulfilled

and purposeful, you know, and, and, and, you know, it's beautiful to hear you say that. And I think that, that, um, you know, it is an environmental cause and it is an ethical cause, and it is the evolution of civil rights. You know, it really is. It's the next thing that we need to start paying attention to. We've done a good job of sort of, you know, in a serial way, you know it really is it's the next thing that we need to start paying attention to we've done a good job of sort of you know in a serial way you know working our way through the various categories of people that have been treated unfairly and and you know this is where we need to put our put our focus on on now and you're doing a beautiful job of that the work you're doing is not only extraordinary it's impactful like you are making a beautiful job of that. The work you're doing is not only extraordinary, it's impactful.

Like you are making a huge difference. Thank you. The book is beautiful. Everybody should pick it up. Mercy for Animals, available wherever you buy your books, right? That's right. And if somebody wants to learn more about Mercy for Animals, the organization, I presume the best place to do that is to go to the website.

But how else can people get involved? Yeah, you can find us online, mercyforanimals.org. You can find us on all the social media platforms, simply at Mercy for Animals. Yeah, I hope that you will find us, that you will follow us, that you will support us, that you will get the book for yourself and for others for the holiday. It's a great holiday read. No, it is. I get the book for yourself and for others for the holiday? It's a great holiday read. No, it is. I love the book.

I think we didn't get into it perhaps in as much detail if we had more time. But what I love about the book is the personalization to it. We were talking a little bit before the podcast. It sort of opens with your story. Well, it's kind of a dramatic event, and then it segues into your personal story, which I found to be very compelling. And you had said, well, I don't really want it. I didn't really want it to be out me. It's about the cause. And I'm like, yeah, but your, your story is actually super interesting. And it allowed me to more deeply engage with, you know, the things that you're passionate about and the things that

you talk about in the book. And, and you did a beautiful job with that. And I think everybody should check it out. And the stories that you tell about the investigations and, you know, the people that you've worked with is really quite touching. Thank you. Yeah. It's, as I told you, it was a vulnerable, it's a vulnerable experience to write a book about yourself. There were things in the book that I hadn't even shared with my therapist seeing for 10 years. I know that feeling. Yeah. But it was also really important to me to share the stories of these undercover investigators who operate in the shadows intentionally not having their, their stories told so that it can be focused on the animals. It's really the, the first book of its kind that

really, I think humanizes who the people are that go undercover that are driving so much of this change. It is a, it is a story-based book. Um, and as you know, it, it closes looking at the future of food and, um, Uma's story and others who have found their voice, um, in a way that is redefining the relationship that we have with food and with animals and right. The two Josh's at Hampton Creek and Ethan Brown at Beyond Meat and Impossible Foods and the like. And Miyoko's. Yeah. Miyoko's, that's right. Yeah, yeah. Cool.

Before we close, though, can we talk a little bit about Circle V? Yeah. Which is this weekend. It's sold out. I know, you sold it out. Second year. Yes. What was the idea behind kind of creating this event and what is it all about?

I mean, by the time I put this podcast up, it will have passed, but people can get excited about next year. That's exactly right. I'm really excited about Circle V. It is, so it's a food and music event that celebrates animal rights. So it's, it's the, the vision is sort of the vegan Coachella. And I believe that that music and art is a powerful platform to inspire change and to open people's hearts and minds to think about the world and think about others in a way that maybe oftentimes we don't. So Circle V is just this fun event that has world-class artists. I mean, this year, Moby is headlining Walk a Flock of Flame, Dream Car, Rari, Reggie Watts, and others.

And then we have incredible speaker panels, which you will be on. I get to be on a panel for the second year in a row. I'm excited about that. So like just world-class speakers, you know, packed on these panels and then awesome vegan food.

So you get something of, of everything wrapped up into one. And like you said, this is the second year it's growing, um, every year circle v.com. Um, and hopefully people can join us in 2018 for circle V it's, it's held here in Los Angeles. Yeah. So last year, um, I attended and I was on a panel and I just loved it because as somebody who I've gone to a lot of veg fests, you know, I know the drill. A lot of them are very similar and they're great. I love all of them and I love the community. I'm not disparaging anybody. Like I think it's all amazing, but there was something

very different in the tone and tenor of Circle V. it's super rock and roll you know like you ain't playing around like no it's not a veg fest no it's not it's like it's like tattoos and like rock and roll and like there's a different energy to it that's very hollywood you know not in a glitzy hollywood way but like when you like if you live in hollywood like oh this is these are people in, you know, like it's very, like, it's very cool. Like I love the energy and the vibe and all about it. So I'm super excited about it. I'm super excited about it as well. Yeah. Cool. Right on. Well, like I said, keep doing what you're doing. Thank you. You as well. Changing, uh, changing hearts and minds, man. I love your message and your work and, uh, I wish you well. Thanks for talking to me. Thanks so much. All right. Peace.

work and I wish you well. Thanks for talking to me. Thanks so much. All right. Peace. All right. Hope you guys dug that good stuff. Food for thought. Be sure to pick up Nathan's new book, Mercy for Animals, wherever books are sold. And please check out the show notes for this week's show on the episode page at richroll.com. Lots of links to take your edification beyond the earbuds. We also have a full video version of this podcast available on my YouTube channel, youtube.com forward slash richroll. Perhaps after listening to Nathan, you're finally ready to pull the trigger and go plant-based, go vegan, or at least get more plant-centric. But I don't know, maybe you don't know how to cook. Maybe you don't have cookbooks. Maybe you don't like cookbooks.

I don't know, maybe you don't know how to cook. Maybe you don't have cookbooks. Maybe you don't like cookbooks. Listen up people. My mission in life is to help you experience your version of what I have experienced eating and living this way. Everything that I do from the books to podcasts, this podcast, to public speaking, to my athletic endeavors are all designed to advance this purpose. And intellectually, I think you all get it, yet still so many people struggle with how to implement a plant-based, plant-centric lifestyle. What do I eat? What if I don't like this or that?

What if I'm allergic to nuts? Where can I buy this stuff? I get these kinds of questions, these kinds of emails every single day. And it's for all of these reasons that we decided to create this meal planner, the Plant Power Meal Planner, which is something I'm

so proud of. It's an incredibly powerful, robust, online, mobile-friendly resource tool that takes all the mystery and all the guesswork out of this whole affair at an incredibly affordable $1.90 a week, which is basically like loose change. When you sign up, here's what you get. Thousands of plant-based recipes, thousands, unlimited meal plans and grocery lists. Everything is metric system compliant, and it's completely personalized and customized based on your specific goals, food preferences, allergies, time constraints. All of the recipes can be scaled depending upon how many people there are in your family, how many you're preparing your meals for.

We have amazing customer support from a team of experts available to you seven days a week, people who live and breathe this stuff, people with graduate degrees, athletes, moms. And we even have grocery delivery in about 60 metropolitan areas. So essentially what that means is once you've selected the recipes that you like, that you prefer, it will create a grocery list. You can go to your grocery store and purchase those items, or you can just have those items delivered directly to your home. So you have everything you need to make these recipes. Basically, we've removed all of the barriers, all of the obstacles towards accessing and maintaining

this kind of lifestyle. I'm so proud of it. So learn more, go to meals.richroll.com or click on meal planner on the top menu at richroll.com. If you want to support my work and this show, easiest way to do it, share it with your friends and on social media, leave a review on Apple podcasts. The main thing is subscribe on Apple podcasts. That one is huge. And we also have a Patreon setup for those who want to support my work financially. And thank you to everybody who has done that.

What else do I want to tell you? I just want to thank everybody who helped put on the show today. Jason Camiolo for audio engineering, production, interstitial music, Sean Patterson for graphics, David Zamet for photo portraits Camiolo for audio engineering, production, interstitial music, Sean Patterson for graphics, David Zamet for photo portraits and video and theme music as always by Annalema.

Hope you guys are doing great. We're heading into the holiday season. Make sure you seal your field. Make sure you're investing in your personal well-being. You got to be your best self to be able to navigate all the insanity that this time of year brings. to be able to navigate all the insanity that this time of year brings. So I'm saying this as much to remind myself as I am to remind you, because we're all in this together.

All right. I'll see you guys back here soon. Peace plants. Namaste. Thank you.