The Rich Roll Podcast - Nutritionist Andy Bellatti, MS, RD: Taking A Stand On Real Food

Episode Date: May 2, 2013

Today on the show I welcome nutritionist and dietitian Andy Bellatti MS, RD. Sure we talk plant-based and other issues related to optimal nutrition (hint: eat REAL FOOD!). But what makes Andy unique amongst his peers isn't so much his pro-plant bias as it is his passion for calling out the inextricable link between giant food corporations and how we innately come to think and feel about the foods we (often unconsciously choose to) eat. From congressional legislation to school lunch policy, the food pyramid and what we are actually led to believe we need to live and thrive is in more ways than you would imagine completely dictated by these corporations, their lobbying efforts and Madison Avenue advertising agencies. What makes Andy different is his courage to take a stand on this issue and his tireless push for positive changes, both systemic and individual. Enjoy! Rich

Welcome to episode 28 of the Rich Roll Podcast with nutritionist and dietitian Andy Balotti. The Rich Roll Podcast. Hey everybody, welcome back to the show. I'm Rich Roll. This is the Rich Roll Podcast. Hey, everybody. Welcome back to the show. I'm Rich Roll. This is the Rich Roll Podcast. It's been another gap since my last episode. Apologies for that. I keep promising that I'm going to get this on a more regulated schedule. I'm working on it. I've been busy. I've been traveling. I was on the road. I had a great trip to the Boston area, Worcester, where I spoke at the Worcester VegFest. I was in New York City. And then I was in Ottawa where I spoke alongside Dr. Michael Greger at an event called Plant Powered Ottawa, which was great.

But then I got back to L.A. and all the work was piled up and just it's been pretty crazy. But I have a great show for you today, nutritionist and dietician Andy Bilotti. This is a guy who I actually never met. He came across my radar over Twitter, I think because some other people or somebody was retweeting some of the content that he was posting. And I started reading some of his articles and started following him on Twitter and he consistently posts really interesting content not just about diet and nutrition but more specifically and kind

of one of the main reasons I wanted to have him on the show is this focus on the big food companies and and kind of how they impact our choices, how they hold sway over our legislative bodies and the way that they influence marketing and consumer choices and even the dietician and nutritionist sort of organizing bodies and conferences. And he gets into all of that in the interview. It's pretty fascinating. And at the end of it, you start thinking like a conspiracy theorist. But it's all true.

And yes, people, in some respect, we are living in the matrix. So the whole point of this is to help educate you so you can make better choices, to help inform what you put in your mouth, how you move your body, all with the idea of improving your wellness. And by wellness, I mean a holistic balance of mind, body, and spirit. So if you're new to the show, who am I? You might be wondering if you just stumbled across this. I'm an ultra distance triathlete.

I like to go really long, super long, sort of multi-day races is kind of my specialty. I'm the author of a book called Finding Ultra, which came out last year and is still doing great. The paperback actually comes out on April 21st, so in like three weeks, which is pretty exciting because it's going to kind of breathe some new life into the book, which is really great. Not that the book isn't continuing to do fantastic. It's sort of held strong for the whole year, which I'm really proud about.

And I just found out that Barnes & Noble is going to be putting it kind of up front in their stores, which is something I didn't get with the hardcover. So that is super, super exciting for me. So if you haven't checked out the book, you can get it on Amazon now, or you can wait a couple of weeks and pick up the paperback. Actually, you can pre-order it now and you'll get it kind of before the stores. And if you're going to do that, use the Amazon banner ad at richroll.com. Won't cost you anything extra, kicks a few pennies into our bucket and helps support the show. So if you've been enjoying what we're doing, that's one great way to support the show.

If you're going to buy something on Amazon, just go click on the Amazon banner ad on richroll.com and buy whatever you're going to buy. It helps us out a lot and really doesn't change your bottom line at all. You can also donate to the podcast and we would really appreciate it. Again, my goal with the show is to bring to you some of the amazing personalities, people who are breaking paradigms, thinking outside the box when it comes to health, fitness, and nutrition in an effort to help you maximize your own wellness, help inform your decisions so that you can go out and unlock the best, most authentic version of yourself.

And as a result of the book and kind of walking this path for the last couple of years, I've had the great fortune of getting to meet and spend a little bit of time with some pretty fascinating people, some of whom you may have heard of and quite a few of them you probably haven't. And quite frankly, what's most exciting for me is to bring to you some of the people that most likely you haven't heard of and give them a platform and a voice. And Andy kind of falls into that category. He is doing fantastic work and courageous work. And it's an honor for me to be able to kind of give him a microphone and a platform and help him spread the message that

he's putting out there because I think it's an important one. We're brought to you today by recovery.com. I've been in recovery for a long time. It's not hyperbolic to say that I owe everything good in my life to sobriety. And it all began with treatment and experience that I had that quite literally saved my life. And in the many years since, I've in turn helped many suffering addicts and their loved ones find treatment. And with that, I know all too well just how confusing and how overwhelming and how challenging it can be to find the right place and the right level of care, especially because, unfortunately, not all treatment resources adhere to ethical practices. It's a real problem. A problem I'm now happy and proud to share has been solved by the people at

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When you or a loved one need help, go to recovery.com and take the first step towards recovery. To find the best treatment option for you or a loved one, again, go to recovery.com. You know what? Let's get right into it. I had about a 90-minute conversation with Andy, and he is fascinating. And if you want to learn more about him, he'll give you some links and stuff like that. But check the show uh for the podcast at richroll.com i'll have a bunch of links up there you can read some of his stuff and learn more about what he's doing and get involved okay so without further ado ladies and gentlemen andy baladi I'm your push of me. I'm your push of me. It's funny.

I was trying to remember how we kind of first initially crossed paths. And, you know, we've never met in person. But I think somebody, I can't recall specifically, but I think somebody was tweeting stuff or retweeting stuff that you were talking about. And so you got on my radar and I was like, oh man, this guy's consistently putting out some pretty interesting nutritional information. And so I started following you and, you know, it's just been consistently, as I said, like great to kind of read all the stuff that you're putting out there. you've taken such a bold strong kind of position uh in in in your field and and unique in in that

regard too so it's been really fun kind of watching uh you blaze this trail yeah thank you it's funny how I feel like more and more over the past few years a lot of my professional contacts when I'm asked how we met, it's always kind of now through Twitter. It's just crazy how that's become a very normalized way of just building some really great professional relationships. It is amazing. I don't know that I've ever really had a negative experience meeting somebody through Twitter. I was just in Ottawa, Canada last week. I did a speaking thing there and the organizers and a couple of friends took me out to dinner the night before. And one

of them was kind of brand new to Twitter, had been encouraged to kind of explore it because she's in the process of writing a book. And so the question on the table was, well, should I be doing Twitter? And it seems like Twitter's worked for you. Has it been good? And I'm like, are you kidding me? Twitter changed my life. And they start laughing. And I go, no, I'm not kidding.

It's been completely transformative for me. I mean, the number of people that I've been able to connect with, really interesting, fascinating people of which you're one of. It's been nothing short of completely life-enriching. Yeah, that's pretty great. I think it's getting harder, though, because it's getting so blown out and everybody's following 10,000 people. And some of the posts just get lost in the wash. thousand people and you know some of the posts just get lost in the wash and you know i've noticed even now like i have less and less time to kind of read the feed because i'm doing so many other things so i i don't know if it'll be interesting to see how it kind of plays out over the next

couple years right um but why don't you tell me a little bit about your story like how you got interested in nutrition and and you know, what led you into becoming a dietitian? And then, you know, I want to get into kind of, you know, what you're doing now. Yeah. So, you know, I've always, I always saw myself, even when I was 10, 11 years old, as a journalist, that was always my passion, journalism. And that's kind of a lot where I get this. I kind of feel like it's in my genes to always ask questions. I want to uncover what's really going on. And even as a child, I was always the one asking, but why, but why, but why?

And so as an undergraduate, I went to NYU where I actually did my bachelor's in journalism. I had nothing to do with nutrition. In fact, after I finished high school, I thought, never taking a science class again. That was my whole viewpoint. And then about a week after graduation, I realized that I didn't want to pursue the traditional journalism path, but I wasn't quite sure what. And it just so happened that was the same year or the same month that Super Size Me, the documentary came out. And I went to see it. And I remember walking out of that theater. And it was also partially because in the documentary, some of the people who are showcased in it were actually NYU

nutrition professors, including Marion Nestle. But I walked out of that theater thinking, I want to study nutrition. And it didn't happen until about a year and a half later when I happened to be working at NYU that I realized that one of the benefits I had was a significant reduction in my tuition costs. And that's when I decided, you know what, I might as well go for it, get my master's in nutrition. And that's how it all began. You mean, what do you mean, reduction in your tuition, like they gave you a rebate because you were already at NYU? Or what? How did that work? Yeah, so basically as a full-time employee, you get tuition remission

where you pay something, you pay like 80, I'm sorry, they pay 80, 85% of your tuition. So you have a much, much lower cost. And of course, considering that I had to do 15 undergraduate prerequisites before I could even take a single graduate level class, it was a lot of classes. So having that discount really made it a lot more affordable. And so you're starting to study nutrition. And what led you to kind of come to this sort of plant-based perspective that you now hold? Because I have issues, issues you know sometimes some of the most contentious discussions that i get into over nutrition happen to be with dietitians and

registered nutritionists who have gone to school have studied nutrition and they learned it in a certain way and and i get into these conversations where if i feel like they're regurgitating some curriculum or dialogue that they heard in school that's kind of at odds with what has been my experience. I guess what I'm saying is, in other words, there tends to be a more closed-minded approach to nutrition because I went to school and this is what I was taught and this is the way it is and you need to listen to me. Right. Well, I actually first became vegetarian back in 1998, long before I had Cellular Nutrition. But what definitely helped me, I think, go even further with it is that it wasn't until, not just that I got into school to Cellular Nutrition, but it wasn't until, not just that I got into school to study nutrition, but it wasn't until I started reading actually Marion Nestle's book, Food Politics, where it really made me realize just how much the food industry influences dietary guidelines. And that's what really made me start investigating a lot of things and asking questions when you start thinking about so why do we have a dairy group and why are certain foods pushed more than others and that's what really led to me i think being the position where i am now uh and then eventually to making the transition, I guess you can call it, to veganism.

Right. So, I lost my mic a little bit there. I don't know what's going on with my audio. Can you hear me okay? I hear you just fine. So, yeah, that's what's really interesting about where you're coming from is, you know, rather than just focusing on, you know, eat these foods, don't eat these foods and and be careful of this, and here's your shopping list, you're really pulling the covers on big food, big ag, in a way that I haven't seen anybody else do. And I think that takes a lot of courage to do that. And how is that received by your colleagues? You know, what happens when you go to these conferences, you know, and let's get into a little bit about how, you know, the professional organizations and these, you know, dietetic conferences that you attend are all

underwritten by, you know, giant food companies and what that means in the present and, you know, and for the future. Yeah, I'll never forget the first conference of the academy of nutrition and dietetics that i went to back when it was called the american dietetic association was in 2007 and i went as a as a student and that was just when i was barely beginning to understand the whole issue of food politics and how industry dictates a lot of this. But even then, I guess you could even say with an untrained eye, I'll never forget walking into the expo floor. And the very first thing I saw was the golden arches and McDonald's logo spinning about 15 feet in or 20 feet in the air. And then I started walking around and I saw

the PepsiCo booth and Coca-Cola. And then I saw Yum Brands, which is part of PepsiCo, but it's Taco Bell and Pizza Hut and KFC. And even back then, I remember thinking something about it just seemed very odd to me. And then the fact that you go to all these booths. I remember after the conference was over, I had this swag bag, I guess you could call it. And I started taking things out of it. And 90% of it was just highly processed junk to where at the time I was staying, it was in Philadelphia. And I was staying at a friend's house. the time I was staying it was in Philadelphia and I was staying at a friend's house and even my friend I remember looking at what had come out of my bag and thinking and not thinking saying to me

wait you got that at your conference because he couldn't really understand how it was a nutrition conference and I was coming home with what essentially was not nutritious food yeah it's completely bizarre from the outsider but I would like i would imagine that you know a veteran in your in your field who's been going to these things forever like they don't even give it a second thought which is completely bizarre it's almost like a scene out of like idiocracy or something like that you know how is that even how is that even possible like how did we get to this point and and you know can you speak to know, the sort of legislative ramifications of, you know, these gigantic corporations who are pushing these unhealthy food products onto people and how that's, you know, changed policy and ultimately the food that ends up on our plate? Yeah.

And when you talk about this, really, there's different ways in which the food industry is doing this. You have how they co-opt health organizations. You have how they lobby so that certain sound public health policies that affect them won't pass. And you also have how they ultimately also affect the federal nutrition guidelines. So I don't know, which of those branches do you want me to start with? Well, let's start with the federal nutritional guidelines. You know, let's start with what we're taught as soon as we enter the school system as young kids. messaging actually comes into being and how powerful it is and how powerful it is to sort of, you know, stake a claim that is counter to, you know, what we've been told our entire life.

Yeah. Well, I think part of the, not part of, I think one of the central parts of this problem is that you look at who is in charge of these subtle guidelines, and one of the main players is the USDA, the United States Department of Agriculture. And when you think about the fact that part of the USDA's job is really to promote meat and milk consumption, as well as some commodities like soy, corn, and wheat, and then you also have them making nutrition recommendations, you start to see how that already creates in and of itself a huge, huge conflict of interest. Right.

It's crazy. I mean, you know, the general consumer sort of walks around believing the USDA has our back, like it's a consumer organization that's there to kind of, you know, make sure that the public is protected. Yeah. And then you look at, for example, you start seeing kind of, you know, make sure that the public is protected. Yeah. And then you look at, for example, you start seeing kind of these connections. So for example, there's an organization called Dairy Management. And a few years ago, they were really in the headlines because they kind of joined forces with Domino's to make these pizzas that had 40% more cheese. And well, you look at it, so basically here's dairy management,

this organization, essentially making it so Americans eat more pizza and more cheese, and that's actually created by the USDA. Dairy management was formed by the USDA. And then dairy management also spent a lot of money, millions of dollars, to basically campaign for dairy as a way to lose weight. So you're seeing how, again, you have the USDA kind of giving specific preferences or favors to one particular food group, which is controversial controversial to say the least. Yeah. I mean, whether you're vegan or not, you know, this isn't a specific, you know,

this isn't something that you should be on board with just if you're on a plant-based diet. I mean, I just think if you want to be a well-educated consumer, irrespective of your food choices, you know, I think we could all agree that a little transparency would be, you know, something we all want. And yet, you know, the, you know, what we saw with Prop 37 in California actually shows the power of these enormous lobbying groups and what they're capable of, because that was simply a transparency bill. It was, it was just a labeling bill that said, you know, the consumer has a right to know if these foods have GMOs in it. And they were able to defeat that. So, you know, we're not talking about a straw man. Like these are huge groups that are able to

convince people and sway public opinion and get dollars where they want them spent. Yeah. And it also goes back to deep pockets. And you're right, it's not about vegan or not, because, for example, when you look at bone health and what we need for our bones to be healthy, I see it with my own clients. I would say that 95% of them, the two things they think of, and the only two things they think of, are calcium and vitamin D.

and the only two things they think of are calcium and vitamin D. When I tell people that vitamin K is crucial for bone health, one, they're surprised. And then when I tell them the food sources are even more surprised because the top sources of vitamin K are dark leafy greens. Now, it's very interesting. There's a reason why I think most people aren't aware of this. And it goes back to these lobbying groups and the budgets that they have. You know, the Dairy Council has a lot of money. Clearly, the whole Got Milk campaign, it's not a shoestring budget. But it also means that when you have that kind of money, you can offer things like educational grants and programs that quote unquote teach nutrition, but they really only talk about healthy bones and healthy teeth with calcium and mostly milk, cheese, and yogurt.

So that's why most of us, when we take a nutrition class or if we go to an after-school program, very rarely are we told, for example, vitamin K is crucial for healthy bones, and you can find it in spinach, kale, broccoli, et cetera, et cetera. I would go one step further and just say that not only is it surprising to kind of bring new information to the table like that, people just won't believe you. That's true. Even if you say, like, listen, you've been led to believe that the most important thing is X, Y, and Z,

and that's because there's a lobbying group behind it that wants you to believe that to perpetrate this concept. But actually, you might be better off doing this, this, and this. And you could present them with research, irrefutable research, and they'll still say, well, I don't care because, you know, I know that milk does a body good and I'm going to go to my grave believing that, which I think speaks to the indelible power of these messages, especially when they're kind of, you know, when you're exposed to them at a very young and impressionable age and you have a teacher in your school who's telling you these things, who's conveying this message that is

being related to them by, you know, a government entity or a, you know, a subsidized government entity. For sure. And I think another problem too, is that for the majority of people in this country, their main go-to source, a lot of times for any health or nutrition question is a doctor. And I know a handful of doctors who are very well-trained in nutrition, but they're the exception to the rule. I think something like almost three quarters of medical schools in this country don't even teach a nutrition course. So we also have people, and I see it all the time, my clients too, where they go to a doctor and the doctor just repeats whatever the USDA says. So we have this

kind of parroting that goes on. And at no point in that equation is somebody actually asking a tough question or really bringing something new to light. Right. So, you know, how can you, like, what are some things that, that somebody who's listening to this can do? I mean, it causes kind of a sense of powerlessness, right? Like, you know, well, somebody's telling me this and my doctor's telling me that, and I don't know, you know, I don't know what to believe. And so they just keep doing whatever they've been doing because they can't seem to find a clear directive in, in any particular direction. Well,

and this is where I always come back to the fact that see the food industry, one of the many tactics they have to, which they love is to kind of create this myth, right? That, Oh, nutrition guidelines are just so confusing. You know,

one year you're told that this is healthy. Then you're told that it's not healthy. And they kind of make it seem like the public is at a complete loss. But what I come back to is, if you look at nutrition advice for the past 50, 60 years, nothing has really changed all that much. For example, we've always been told from the beginning to limit sugars. That's been key. We've always been told, eat as many fruits and vegetables as you can.

We've always been told really to avoid things like refined grains or really foods that are overly processed. So what people need to come back to is that the key to health, and again, regardless of what kind of diet you follow, the key to health is in eating minimally processed foods. And if anybody's ever trying to sell a particular product or a particular food group as magical or that you need it, that can sometimes be a red flag. I'm talking mainly about dairy and meat in the sense that what we need for health is calcium. Can you get it in milk? Sure, you can. You can also get it in many other foods. What you need for health is protein. Is it in meat? Sure. But it's also in vegetables, grains, nuts, seeds, beans, etc. also in vegetables, grains, nuts, seeds, beans, etc. So that's kind of one way to, I think, to manage all of this is to go back to principles that have really been in effect

since the beginning of nutrition science, pretty much. It's just common sense, really. And you see, and that's why one of my biggest pet peeves, and it's been really popping up recently, is this whole idea of ranking foods and food rankings this whole notion that you sometimes you somehow have to take an integer and take the square root and multiply it times n and divide it by four to realize you know that oranges are healthy it's kind of a sign of the times. And especially when I hear people say something like,

well, I saw this chart where an apple gets a 94 and celery gets a 92, when really the message that people need to hear is eat more fruits and vegetables. I think when we start getting into all this minutia of which vegetable, which fruit, considering the public health crisis that we're going through, it seems to me like that's too much detail and people just get lost in minutia. Right. And then it becomes an excuse to not do anything. It's sort of like, well, why don't we just start with not eating McDonald's anymore? You know what I mean? Let's pick a baseline. I have a friend of mine who i was on the phone with the other day he's having trouble kind of getting off the couch and getting fit and he

wants to start an exercise program and he wanted to have an intricate conversation with me about you know the pluses and minuses of aerobic versus anaerobic you know type of extra and i was like dude why don't you just start like by you by doing a 30-minute walk every day? We can get into that later, but let's focus on just moving your body a little bit right now instead of some kind of internal debate that keeps you anchored to your couch. no sugar, no grain, vegan, Mediterranean, whatever it is, we get caught up in these labels and these dialogues and these debates that ultimately, and quite unfortunately, end up separating us and creating some kind of paralysis. Yeah, and I kind of refer to it as dietary tribalism in the sense that it really disappoints me, for example, when, you know, I see, for example, say, yeah, paleo and vegan, right? And you see sometimes these

two groups, not everybody, but sometimes going at each other and who's better and who's not. In the meantime, the food industry is completely running amok. And you kind of want to say, we all agree in these two, quote unquotequote tribes that the current standard American diet is not healthy and that there's way too much process when people need to change that. aside some of our dietary differences, but just coming together to be a solid opposition to this very powerful and very rich industry that kind of has free reign to do as it pleases. Yeah, I'm in complete agreement with that. And sometimes I get a little bit of flack because, you know, I don't, there are people that want me to go, you know, toe to toe with the paleo people and have some kind of knock down, drag out fight. And, you know, I can do that,

but, you know, what is the, what is to be gained by that? Because somebody who's sort of adhering to that perspective, it's very unlikely that I'm going to change their opinion and they're not going to change mine. And it just turns into like a sunday morning political you know football talk show forum which people love people love to see people argue but like what are we really doing here you know what i mean and the and the big food companies love it because as long as people remain confused they continue to win you know because precisely just say well you know you know what you guys can't even figure it out so keep eating you knowiscuits and the crappy stuff that are in the middle aisles at the grocery store. And they're happy as clams about it.

So they love it. They love all the confusion and the mixed messages and all of that. It keeps them in business. Absolutely. And that's why I think it's key. I think anybody who feels that right now the food system and the standard American way of eating is a problem, regardless of how they personally eat, needs to address this and speak up. And yeah, sometimes you'll be a low-carb semi-carnivore agreeing with a vegan on this,

and that's okay, and that's the way it should be. You know, as human beings, we have this sort of inherent nature to want to be a member of this tribalism that you're talking about, which I think is really interesting. We're inclined to join up with a team and be rah-rah, and it's kind of like how we're wired. And I think we have to be really careful about that. It has its place, you know, and there are certain times when, you know, kind of a cohesive rallying cry is productive. Yes.

But, you know, right now there's so much contention. It's almost like we forget that we're all human beings. And like, regardless of whether, you know, whatever kind of diet you're espousing, everybody's trying to, you know, sort of, uh, help people be healthier. You know what I mean? And because if somebody's espousing a paleo diet, they're not a bad person, you know, or I'm not a bad person because, you know, we may disagree or whatever. And I think sometimes it's easy to get lost in all of this debate. And I don't know what the answer is. I mean, I'm all about like, hey, let's find our common ground and let's fight the bigger battles here. Yeah, and I think a lot of it comes back to, whenever possible, know, whether it's policy for grassroots efforts

or nonprofits that are tackling some of these issues. You know, for example, there's so many issues in industrial agriculture, especially when you look at the industries of poultry and beef, where even if you haven't touched a single animal product in 20 years, you still need to be concerned about the fact that conditions in today's slaughterhouses are horrific, that workers are treated horribly, that there's massive food safety issues. So that's one of the things where I encourage people. Farmers themselves are in this indentured servitude situation. Can you talk a little bit about the ag gag bill because i think there's you know i'm familiar with it but there might be some people out there listening

who who don't know what that is and i think it kind of encapsulates everything that we're talking about well it's extremely disturbing i mean essentially you're having uh bills being written that would make it illegal to film what is taking place at slaughterhouses, which is really, when you think about it, when you think about how progress has been made with the welfare of animals, really what ends up being the driving force many times is these undercover videos by certain organizations, like the Humane Society, for example, that show just how brutally treated these animals are. And it's very, very disturbing to think about the fact that there's many people in Congress and government that are kind of supporting these bills that essentially would block that

from ever happening. Right. And I think even if you take the animal issue out of it and just look at it from a public interest perspective, it's like, again, it goes back to transparency. These companies are, you know, they know that they are, you know, involved in some dicey practices, and they don't want that exposed. And so they want a law passed that says, it is absolutely illegal. It's basically an anti whistleblower statute that says it's absolutely illegal to blow the whistle on anything that we're doing here, whether it's illegal or not.

And I don't think, you know, regardless of your perspective on, you know, meat consumption or, you know, whether you're an animal activist or not, this should concern you because there is, it is definitely a slippery slope. And if something like this passes, you know, we are really, you know, and I sound like a crazy conspiracy theory, not, but like, it's like we're inching towards this lockdown police state, a corporate police state. Well, even today I saw on Twitter that there was a conference that was actually all about this. Of course, it was hosted by companies that are involved in that industry. And the whole conference was basically about how to deal with activists.

And some journalists were actually prohibited from entering the event, which speaks volumes. Yeah, exactly. And the other thing it comes also back to is this idea that these industries have money and they can lobby. and they can lobby. So you do have people like Cargill, where they can devote half a million dollars or more to lobbying to have these bills passed. Or you have the fact that Coca-Cola, in 2009, they spent $9 million to defeat soda taxes. So it's not just the fact that these companies are putting out products that are harmful. It's the fact that they have the legal and financial means of really getting in the way of sound public health policy, all while claiming that they're part of the solution. I had Dr. Michael Greger on the show a couple months ago, and we talked a little bit about this.

And my question to him was, well, all right, so why is all this lobbying one-directional? How come it's always coming from the bad guys? Why can't the good guys get it together and form you know an equally powerful lobbying group and you know he had an interesting answer but i'd like i wanted to hear what you you know your thoughts on that well i think one of the issues is that there are a lot of small uh small organizations small groups tackling the issue but there isn't really one huge, big organization that can really drive some of this progress. And then it's also a matter of, again, it comes back to this idea that there are different interests, so to speak. So you have maybe group A that wants to deal with this topic, but Group B doesn't, so they can't really join forces. And so you have some fractured kind of organizational problems going on, whereas Coca-Cola, you know, they have one very clear thing. We don't want soda taxes. Boom.

Right. So, for example, you know, there's some evidence suggest that that beet root juice has a positive impact on boosting endurance but there's no sort of centralized conglomerate of beet of beet farmers right they're just it's a bunch of small beet farmers that are dispersed across america or wherever wherever and they're not they're not you know unified unified in a way that they can actually create leverage. So instead, we get messages like chocolate milk is the ultimate recovery drink, as opposed to, hey, you might want to drink some beet juice. Right. Well, and also, the beet farmers are also busy farming.

They're not hiring 50 social media interns to tweet and Facebook people about the benefits. And it does also come back to the money issue because Gatorade literally has tens of millions of dollars they can spend just for advertising. Mm-hmm. And it spills over also, of course, into the nutritional research, right? So, you know, who's funding this research that is establishing that, you know, X, Y, and Z is good for you and A, B, and C is bad for you. And that's what ends up, ends up getting taught in, you know, these, these nutrition programs, right? Well, yeah. and that's one of the topics that you know in february this year i formed a a group called dietitians for professional integrity i co-founded

it with a few of my dietitian colleagues and we we founded it because we we were just tired of the fact that our credential is being uh co-opted by these food companies willingly by our organization, the Academy of Nutrition and Dietetics. And one of the many issues that really troubles us is that, you know, the Academy has partnered with Coca-Cola and Pepsi and the Hershey's Center for Nutrition, which is, yeah, the chocolate. Okay, that says it all. And what's really problematic is that you have these companies offering continuing education to dietitians. Because part of what you have to do to maintain your credential, you have to complete 75 continuing education units over the course of five years.

You have to complete 75 continuing education units over the course of five years. You could take a webinar where Coca-Cola is talking about how artificial sweeteners and artificial dyes are completely fine and that sugar is not a problem for children. And you get credit towards your RD education. And that to me is just abominable. It's shocking. It's beyond shocking. is just abominable. It's shocking. It's beyond shocking.

And so when you speak out on Twitter and you write a lot on this subject, and I'm going to share in the show notes a bunch of hyperlinks to several of Andy's articles, does the Academy give you flack? Is there blowback for what you're saying? I mean, it seems so obvious to me. And yet, you know, I would imagine that you're kind of putting yourself at risk by being outspoken about this kind of stuff.

I mean, what is it like when you show up at these conferences and kind of have to rub elbows with these people? Yeah, it's very interesting. And I would say at the conference and even on social media, it's just very polarizing. I have people who come up to me at the conferences and thank me for my work. And I have people who come up to me and tell me that I'm – I mean I have somebody come to me and tell me that, quote, I'm doing a disservice to the profession. So it kind of runs the gamut. Please elaborate on how that is.

But I don't mind being outspoken. You know, when I was at the last conference, I purposefully went to sessions that the food industry clearly had a hand in, because that was what I wanted to do. And I wanted to, at every single one, go to the microphone and speak up. And what's very troubling too, not just at the conferences, but in general, is that there are also a lot of front groups. A lot of these food companies, they know that it's very good press for them to claim they're part of the solution. So what do they do? They hide behind front groups that do the dirty work for them. For example, the Center for Consumer Freedom is one. You also have Ithac, which is the International Food Information companies. So there was one session last year at the Academy Conference that was all about chemical additives. Of course, it was sponsored by Ithac. Now, of course, the average person might not know that Ithac gets money from Coca-Cola,

Nestle, PepsiCo, Monsanto, et cetera, et cetera, all the big players. And the main message of this entire one-hour session was that chemical additives are fine, that any concern about pesticides, artificial dyes is just panic, that there's no science. And the most disturbing part is that this wasn't even a debate. This was Ithac running the show. And so I was counting down the seconds was Ithac running the show. And so I was, you know, counting down the seconds until I could go to the microphone. And when I finally do, I addressed the

doctor who had said all of this. And I asked him, I'm just curious as to your thoughts, because a lot of the additives that you mentioned that are safe, have actually been banned in other countries. that you mentioned that are safe have actually been banned in other countries. So doesn't that speak to the fact that they might not be safe? And his response to me was, different scientists arrive at different conclusions. That's just good science, Andy. Yeah, that shows a commitment to integrity, and it shows a commitment to the truth, clearly. And when you're sitting in a conference hall and you're listening to this and you're fully understanding where this is all coming from and you look around the room, I mean, aren't your fellow colleagues thinking the same thing that you are?

Or what is the kind of general consensus? I mean, are people buying into this? Or what's going on here? Yeah. Well, that's the problem that I'm not going to say that I'm the only one who notices because no, I clearly have other RD colleagues who get this and they're just as outraged as I am. But right now, I can't say that we are in the overwhelming majority. And what's really galling to me is this idea that advocating that a national nutrition organization not have ties to soft fruit companies and junk food companies by some people is seen as this off the wall, totally crazy idea, when to me it just seems like the most logical and sane thing. But that is what's scary,

sitting in these lecture halls and seeing that the majority of people are nodding along and not really challenging what they're hearing. Yeah, it's absolutely shocking. And it reminds me of that scene in Super Size Me when Morgan Spurlock calls up these, you know, a whole like a hundred dieticians or nutritionists, I can't recall, and asks these, you know, a whole like a hundred dietitians or nutritionists, I can't recall, and ask them, you know, how often somebody should eat fast food. And some of them said, you know, no more than once a day or once a week or something like that. And, you know, given what you've just said, it's almost like, you know, if somebody wants to, you know, wants good information on how to change your diet or be healthier, and they go to their local dietician or nutritionist or

doctor, and these people are parroting what they hear at these conferences that are coming from these speakers that are funded by these big corporations, it's like, I can't even blame them. The system is broken. The doctors aren't educated properly about nutrition in medical school. And the dieticians and the nutritionists, with rare exceptions for people like yourself, are also being fed certain propaganda. I mean, this is a systemic problem. So, you know, other than you being outspoken and continuing to be, you know, really, you know, a journalist as much as a dietitian and a nutritionist in this area, like, how are we going to compel change? I mean, you know, is it happening? Is it just an impossible battle?

Or, you know, what's going on behind the scenes? Yeah, well, I'm not going to say it just a impossible battle or you know what's going on behind the scenes yeah well i'm not going to say it's an impossible battle because it's not but i what i remind people when i give talks a lot and when i when people email me with similar concerns you know i recently gave a talk and the title of it was food system sos challenges and solutions and it was food system, SOS, challenges and solutions. And it was a 45 minute talk of which 40 minutes were the problem and five minutes for the solution. But what I tell people is when I get to that final slide, you know, I remind them that we are right now at the beginning, I think, of a paradigm shift, but you have to think about it in the same way of what happened with tobacco. You know, in the 1950s and 60s, you had the tobacco companies at the American Medical Association conferences, and you had doctors promoting cigarettes, all right? In the 70s,

you start, well, 60s, 70s, the health studies start coming out. The 80s, it kind of goes massive. Then you have, you know, in the 90s, you have a lot of the policy changing. And to this day, that took about 50, 60 years for that whole cycle to really complete itself. And so what I tell people is that right now, we're kind of at the beginning of our own cycle in the food world. So what you have to think about is that the actions that we take now, whether it's speaking up, whether it's supporting a certain organization, or supporting a candidate who is tackling some of these issues, these are kind of investments that

we're making for the future. If we come into this thinking that in two years, things are going to change right away, you're going to going to change right away you're going to be horribly frustrated and you're going to think that your actions don't count but we're on we're in we're in this for the long term but do you think we have 50 or 60 years i mean our our soil is being rapidly depleted you know we're running out of natural resources. The proliferation of GMOs and the way it's going with our seeds, especially with corn. I mean, we're running out of time. I don't know that we have the luxury of 50 years of trying to acclimate people to the truth here. True.

And I think there are certain issues that are more timely than others. For example, if you're talking about changing the food environment in terms of what's being advertised and maybe zoning laws that prevent low-income areas from having 25 fast food places, not a single supermarket, that might be more time. There are certainly, I think when you talk about natural resources, that's a lot more timely. certainly, I think when you talk about natural resources, that's a lot more timely. But the good thing there is that when you deal with environmental issues, you also have the added benefit of having, you know, food, but also environmental organizations working on things together, which I think can help speed up the process. And I think can also lead to more effective

policy that happens a little bit more quickly. Yeah, and I think that times have changed since the golden age of the tobacco companies. With the advent of the internet, there's just so much transparency now. And I think that hopefully, my hope is that accelerates all of this. And you see the fear in the clampdown like in the in the ag gag bill i mean these companies are you know pushing this kind of legislation because they're scared they're threatened and they're under siege yeah exactly and we went i think we went back and forth on twitter a while ago over these these dairy campaigns you know because they're sort of losing market share to to the the plant-based

milks that are becoming increasingly more popular. And so they're putting out these ads that are kind of these desperate Hail Marys to make people confused and think that the plant-based milks are unhealthy or unnatural. I mean, I'm sure you know a little bit behind the scenes on that. Can you speak to that? Because I just find it hilarious. Yeah. So this really came into play last year when, as you mentioned, the Dairy Council has noticed that plant-based milks, it's no longer a niche thing where you can only buy hemp milk at the health food store. And it's also not a thing where it's only vegans who are buying them. You have people who are omnivorous who prefer soy milk or almond or coconut or whatever uh and you also have of course much more varieties now you have hazelnut milk and rice milk and flax milk and so on and so forth and so last year the entire campaign

was about uh they called it has to do with real milk and how only milk from a cow is real. And it was this really silly advertisement where they were saying how, unlike fake milks, real milk doesn't have to be shaken up. And the most bizarre thing is that on the website, they were showing how sometimes some plant-based milks have things like carrageenan in them, which is a seaweed-based thickener. And what's really funny about that is that there's a ton of dairy products out there that have carrageenan as well. So that was a pretty –

Also, if you were going to get milk directly from the cow and you let it sit, you would have to shake that too. Exactly. Yeah, I mean I don't know of any cows that make skim milk. Dairy would have to shake that too would exactly yeah i mean i don't know if any cows natural dairy would have to be shaken yeah yeah there's no skim milk cow right either so if you talk about real milk if you're talking about straight from the utter you know whole milk and the fact too that most plant milks can be made with a blender and a nut milk bag. So it's not as if you need all this industrial machinery to make almond milk. Just blend almonds in water and strain it. Now, it just speaks to the fear and paranoia of these companies and these desperate attempts

to maintain market share as people become more educated. And I don't know, have you ever been, if you ever been to like natural food products expo, uh, I haven't, I mean, this is, this is like a, for the, for the listeners out there, it's an annual convention where all the kind of new, you know, natural and health, health food companies kind of congregate. And it's a big, you know, kind of convention and all these vendors and tables. And I started going a couple of years ago and even in the last like two or three years, it's,

it's like doubled in size. It's crazy. There's, there's a lot of money and interest in creating new healthy food products. Um, you know, not all of which are great, but you know,

a lot of them, a lot of them are, and you know, this is happening because consumers are getting more educated. They're more interested in being healthy. And they're taking more sort of self-responsibility for these choices by voting with their dollar. And you see it with venture capital funds that are investing in new food companies. I mean, it is happening. So, you know, like yourself, I am optimistic.

But, you know, these huge lobbying groups have been around for a long time, and they know what they're doing. And I think it's just really incumbent upon everybody to take more responsibility for educating themselves about the foods they're eating, where they're coming from, who's paying for it. You know, when people start throwing research results around to understand who underwrote that research and what the end game is with that and to vote with your dollar. Yeah. And I think also what I would add to that too is, is voting, you know, like the old fashioned way in the sense that if there is a candidate, whether it's at the local level, state or federal, even if they're not perhaps dealing with food issues, but if there's a candidate who, for example, talks about how industry affects policy, and even if they're talking about, say, the gas industry affecting environmental policy,

that's still somebody to support because they get the bigger picture. So it's also about finding representatives who are starting to address these issues and address how there's, you know, just corporate greed and how there's no regulation really for most corporations. Because that's the other side of this too, where, you know, policy kind of dictates our social and food environment. So the healthfulness of our choices can only be as helpful as our environment is. And that's where you can really achieve things with law and policy. I agree. But I also, you know, am a little bit less optimistic about that, particularly in light of, you know, watching what happened with the background checks,

the gun background checks law recently, and just the extent to which Congress is in the sort of back pocket of the NRA and various gun lobbying groups. And it's disappointing. It's disappointing to kind of fully grasp just how owned some of our representatives can be. And that's why, for me, it always goes back to, and I agree with what you're saying. I just, you know, I look at that system and I think it's as broken as any system. So one thing that you can do is say,

all right, I'm putting my money here and I'm not, and it seems like a small gesture, but in the aggregate, you know, that's really what's going to create change in a system that has become just increasingly capitalistic. And that's also where informing yourself is really key in the sense that understanding that some, you know, seemingly natural, quote unquote, that word is a whole other issue in itself. But, you you know natural organic companies are owned some of them are owned by these really big food giants so also informing yourself of who owns what and there's a lot of co-optation of of organic starting to happen and

so yeah you're right just learning about companies and what they stand for and what they support can you uh speak to some of the more the the bigger ones that people might not be aware of? Yeah. So, for example, General Mills, they own Cascadian Farms. They own Muir Glen. They own Larabar. They own the Food Should Taste Good chips. There's actually a whole

chart that somebody did. But those are a few examples of... But what does that mean? I mean, you know, is it possible that some of these sort of organic smaller brands that are owned by the conglomerates still operate somewhat independently and can maintain the integrity of the product? Or if you're buying that,

then you're just sort of fueling the system that's already kind of broken and perpetrating all of these problems on all of this. Well, I think that's part of it. I find it very interesting that once Lara Bar got bought out by General Mills, suddenly, because Lara Bar used to be bars made from fruits and nuts. And then you suddenly have larabars with chocolate chips which i thought was interesting uh but yeah you

also got to ask yourself that now in a way you're kind of supporting uh you know a larger company that takes certain actions and behaviors that are questionable because you have and it happened with Prop 37 where you had parent companies you know against GMO labeling these big parent companies

like I think you know companies that you would think would have been supportive taking the opposite position like Odwalla. I don't know for sure if Odwalla was one of it, but companies like that that seemingly are like health

food companies trying to defeat this. Well, you know, and Odwalla, for example, that's another example owned by Coca-Cola. Right, right. Which people might not know so you know i can hear uh you know the thoughts of somebody who might be listening to this saying you know this this is too hard like every time i think i'm doing the right thing i find out it's

the wrong thing and i don't have time to research all this and look at pie charts and corporate structure and find out who's owned by what. I'm busy. I've got kids. I go to work. I've got to hit the market on the way home. I need to do it quick. How do I make this easier than it sounds? How do I implement some of the things that you're saying into my life

without it becoming completely disruptive? Yeah, and it comes back to those three simple words, eat real food. I mean, if you think about it, most of the healthiest foods around don't have ingredient lists, don't have labels, and don't have a brand name on them. You can easily make your own Lara Bars with a food processor at home and just, you know, almonds and dates. So that's really what it comes down to, I think. And it also goes back to why I don't like all those supermarket ratings, for example, because it takes away from the overall message that is just eat real food as much as possible. And by that, I mean food that

is largely minimally processed. So in as close to its natural state as possible. And, and I also think, you know, of course there's this public health epidemic, but there's also this epidemic that people are just not cooking anymore. That's huge. I think, and it doesn't have to be, you know, like a food network five course meal, but you can easily, you know like a food network five course meal but you can easily you can easily make a meal in 20 25 minutes that is healthful and tastes great right which of course the food industry likes to that's another thing like to push this idea that oh cooking is such a chore that we're just offering you a box that you just mix it with water and you have a meal um they they love that whole myth because it makes it seem like yeah you know what i don't have time for cooking might as well just pick up

a frozen entree and just heat it up in the oven right so that's my advice i think to people is don't make it complicated right i always say you know when you go to the grocery store stick to the the ends you know the two ends usually is where the real food is. And pretty much most of the stuff in the middle is the stuff you want to avoid, right? Yeah, there's some exceptions. For example, in the middle you can get beans and nuts and seeds and all that. But yeah, for the most part, you can't go wrong with produce.

And again, a lot of the healthiest foods don't come in boxes and don't have ingredient lists. Shocking to hear that, Andy. Yeah. I can't believe that's your message today. Imagine that. What a concept. Where do you come down on the whole organic versus conventional when it comes to produce?

For the sort of dollar crunched consumer who some people are saying, well, it's organic or nothing. No. Here's what I tell people always. Whenever I give nutrition advice, I always say to apply it as much as possible to your life and within your means. That's going to differ from person to person, number one. Number two, when it comes to organics, I always recommend checking out the environmental working groups, Dirty Dozen, because that shows you, I think, the 12

fruits and vegetables that are most important to buy organic in the sense that if you can't buy a large amount of organic food, then if you can make sure that those 12 items are organic whenever possible, that would be great.

I also encourage people to also, whenever possible, shop at a farmer's market. Sometimes at a farmer's market, there's plenty of organic produce, but because the organic certification does cost money, sometimes an organic farmer has not been certified organic, but they're still organic. And regardless, at a farmer's market, you're supporting a local economy. And I think we need more interaction between people and farmers. I think a lot of us have gotten so far removed that if you have one in your area, that's what I encourage. Yeah, and I think there's a common misconception that if you do it that way, it's going to be super expensive. And yes, sometimes it is, but more often than not, it's not. And you can negotiate with these people. They want your business. They want a relationship. They're looking for something long term. So get into a dialogue. Go to the farmer's market and actually talk to them. And you might be surprised.

market and actually talk to them. And you might be surprised. Yeah. And also, too, it goes back to that concept of seasonal shopping in the sense that, of course, if you're in New York and you're buying strawberries or blueberries in January, they're going to taste bland and they're going to be very expensive. If you buy them in season and from a local farmer, they tend to be at a very reasonable price. It's also that idea of understanding when certain fruits and vegetables not only taste better, but are also more affordable because they're in season. What do you think some of the most, biggest misconceptions like in the in the people that you work with your clients biggest nutritional misconceptions that that people have that you could help sort of elucidate for us well there's a few the one that comes to mind that

i hear it almost daily and i still i'm almost shocked to hear it because I thought this had been only in the past. But I still see so much fat phobia where when I tell people to eat avocados or almonds or peanuts, a lot of them I see the initial suspicion, I guess is the right word to use, but also this idea of, but isn't that fattening? I get that all the time. And so I have people coming to me and they're snacking on rice cakes and fat-free yogurt, which is full of sugar, and all these, again, fake foods, foods that are fat-free, not because they're naturally fat-free, not because it's an apple, but because they're chemically made and processed to be fat-free. So that's one thing that I see a lot.

And I also see people who just think that are not concerned at all about artificial sweeteners, because it's zero calories, that they're completely fine and healthy. If there's no calories, then there can't be any adverse health impact from that. Yeah, I see that a lot. Well, let's go back be any adverse health impact from that. Yeah, I see that a lot. Well, let's go back to the fat thing a little bit. I think there's a lot of confusion over this. And personally, I eat a relatively low-fat diet, but it's not a no-fat diet.

I love avocados. I eat plenty of almonds. I eat almond butter. fat diet. I love avocados. I eat plenty of almonds. I eat almond butter. You know, I cook with coconut oil and occasionally with olive oil. I try to do it sparingly, but I don't eliminate it completely. And it kind of begs the question of, you know, kind of the two camps that are always circling in my universe, which is the super like low and no fat kind of engine to diet Caldwell Esselstyn camp of plant-based eating. Um, that is very strict, uh, you know, no nuts, no avocados. And then on the other end of the spectrum, you know, these sort of ketosis high fat, um, proponents, uh, you know, I've had a couple of these guys on my podcast too

and heard what they had to say. And there's a lot of people that are following that advice too. It's not something that I have direct experience with, but I can't say that I can get behind it. But I don't have a degree in nutrition science either. So what are your thoughts on all of that? My two main rules for fats are the following. Number one, most of your fats should come from whole foods and not from isolated oils in the sense that when you're eating your fat from whole

foods, avocados, nuts, seeds, coconut, uh, you're not just getting healthy fats, you're getting minerals, you're getting fiber, you're getting fiber, you're getting vitamins. So that's number one. You know, I'm not in this camp of, you know, because sometimes I do see some advice out there along the lines of make a smoothie and add a quarter cup of coconut oil. You know, that to me just seems absurd. And the other rule I have just to interject there. Yeah. I mean, this is kind of what's going on right now. And, you know, some people call it bro science, but there are other people that are super behind this, like Peter Attia and, you know, other sort of, you know, I don't know what their titles would be. But people that have, you know, large followings of groups of people, you know, Dave Asprey and his Bulletproof Executive Program, where he's basically advising

people to put butter in their coffee in the morning and kind of, you know, and I don't know if this is to trigger ketosis or what it is, but I find it confounding that there is this message getting a lot of traction out there that you should be eating a high-fat diet and eliminating all fruits and any form of sugar whatsoever. Yeah, and I'll address that next, but just to give you my other rule for fats, and it kind of does play into that, but it kind of plays into that, is to eat fats that it goes back to processing as minimally processed as possible, meaning unrefined coconut oil, great.

Hemp seeds, awesome. Almonds, excellent. Corn oil, not so much. Partially hydrogenated oils, no. It does go back to this idea that what really determined, I think, to a large degree, healthfulness of a diet the most, there's many factors, but I think one of the key pieces is how processed you're eating. And I think this is why there's always this endless debate, but I don't agree, for example, with shunning fruit. I think to me that makes no sense whatsoever. But somebody tell me, well, somebody will tell me, well, I know somebody who shunned fruit and their blood lipid, you know, their blood tests are fantastic. Then you have somebody who on the reverse says to me, I know somebody who eats almost no fat and their blood results are fantastic. Then you have somebody who on the reverse says to me, I know somebody who eats

almost no fat and their blood results are fantastic. Well, what those two tend to have in common is that what they are eating is very minimally processed. So of course I have my own advice that I give. For example, I would never tell somebody to put butter in their coffee. I would never tell somebody to have a diet that's 80% fat or anything of the sort. But I think this kind of is an example that it comes back to just not eating the standard American diet, highly processed foods. Once you make that change, that I think takes care of many, many, many health problems that you could run into. Right.

And I think that's why, I mean, it's changing now, but traditionally you would look at Europeans and say, oh my God, you know, they're eating all these seemingly creamy, high-fat foods or whatever, but they don't have the obesity problem that Americans have. But their food isn't processed, or at least until recently, not very much so, right? Yeah, exactly. And that's why I think that spending – it goes back to what we were talking earlier about, this kind of tribalism where you have, I think in a way, all these different tribes, they're all very interested in health and they're all interested in healthy eating.

And that's what they have in common uh and i think rather than infighting they need to just get a message of cutting back on processed foods to most americans who think that a special k bar is healthier than snacking on almonds i think that's where the disconnect is happening uh and of course like like you said earlier, the food industry loves it because they can just say, oh, now you made a low-carb bar that has 35 ingredients. As long as there's new trends happening, that's just new opportunities to repackage foods and sell them in a new way. Exactly. them in a new way. Exactly. I remember in the early 2000s when the low-carb 2.0 kind of craze hit, going into a grocery store in New York and seeing every single bottle of oil in that supermarket had a carb-free sticker on it. And that's when it hit me that- when it hit me that's 100 fat right well exactly you know but

things like those make it very clear that the food industry loves to any trend any wave they can ride they will right do you know uh jeff novick yes i do he gives a great uh speech about how to read a food label with just some hilarious examples of how the food industry tries to confuse the... He does a PowerPoint and he'll put up all these labels. He has a famous example where he uses Pam and the nutrition facts panel on the back.

They pick such a tiny serving size that on the front they can say that it has zero calories. It's like one-tenth of a second, right? Right. And he gets up on stage and he tries to hit the spray top and see if he could actually make it spray the amount of the serving size, which is an absolute impossibility because it's like a microgram or something. And it's like 100%.

It's essentially olive oil, right? And which is, you know, almost entirely fat. And yet they can say zero calories on the front. And then people think, oh, I could just use this stuff all day long. And that's an extreme example. But you know, his position, and I'm sure you would agree, is never trust anything you read on the front of any food packaging. Yes, I always say the front of any food packaging. Yes, I always say the front of a food package is marketing and the back is actual facts. Right, and there's things that can be done to make it difficult to understand and actually read the nutrition facts panel and have a clear understanding of what that information is. I mean, there's ways to toy with the numbers, like I said, with serving sizes

and other ways too, like the way that they calculate fat by weight versus calories, etc. It's easy to obfuscate the truth. Yeah. And you also see it with one that really, really bothers me. It's with trans fats, where as long as you have less than half a gram of trans fat per serving, you can say zero grams of trans fat per serving on the front. And what's really disturbing about that is that really when it comes to trans fats, the optimal amount is zero. You don't want any artificial trans fats. fats. But you could have four or five servings of a food that has, say, 0.3, 0.4, and you're getting two grams of trans fats, which from a cardiovascular standpoint, two grams of trans fats is horrific and has very damaging consequences. And that's an example, see again, where in Europe, well, not everywhere, in some countries like Denmark, they were able to simply ban trans fats from the food supply, period.

And that's where I wish that the U.S. would really step up and start doing that. Because, yes, I can educate and other nutrition professionals, whether they're RDs or not, can educate people on that, right? Trans fats, how do you spot them on a food label? But wouldn't it just be a lot easier for everybody if we just banned trans fats from the food supply, period? Come on, Andy, that's not the American way. That's right. How dare I?

What are some other things that are banned internationally that are okay here? Well, one of the, I think, most controversial ones has been artificial food dyes, where you have food companies making two versions of the same product. So, for example, you're making a candy bar for Europe, and you can't have Red 40 dye in it because it's banned,

but here in the U.S. you can. And that's troubling because it's banned but here in the u.s you can and that's troubling because there's more and more research showing that artificial food dyes are linked to you know hyperactivity adhd there's even some uh animal studies showing that there could even be uh carcinogen concerns with some of these and And not to mention that in the past, there's been food dyes that were once approved that were then taken off the market because of health concerns.

So I think that's just such a problem, especially when you consider that, by and large, most food dyes, these artificial food dyes, they're in products targeted and marketed to children. Right. And have you read Salt, Sugar, Fat yet? I've read some of it. I have to finish it, though, but I've read excerpts.

I've read a few excerpts of it, but I think it's really, you know, when you talk about kids, and then it kind of begs the the issue of the food companies kind of scientifically devising foods that that uh trigger the pleasure centers of the brain and and create these addictive patterns that you get to the kids when they're young and you know again going back to these this analogy with the tobacco companies and you, you know, I think it's incumbent upon the parents out there to really, you know, learn and educate. I keep saying it. I feel like I'm banging my head against the wall. But, you know, kids, you know, the marketing messages on television are so powerful with respect to these foods for kids. And all you have to do is take your kid grocery shopping and, you know, of course they want the package

that has the toy in it or the cartoon character on the front that they like or whatever. And it seems somewhat innocuous, but basically you're creating these embedded kind of pathways that trigger these pleasure centers and create these habits that, you know, I will venture as far as to say are addictions that will last a lifetime and become very, very difficult later in life to overcome. And, you know, I see it all the time with people that

struggle with their cravings and, you know, it starts when you're a kid. So you've got to be really careful with this kind of stuff. It is not, you know, it's not a, I'm stumbling over my words here. I'm trying to think of the right word to say. But, you know, it's a serious thing. It's not something to take lightly. Well, and that touches on two things that I think are crucial. One, it goes back to money in the sense that, you know, McDonald's last year in 2011 spent $150 million just to advertise Happy Meals

in one year. Or you think about the fact that, you know, Kellogg's in 2010, $53 million just for frosted mini-wheats. And then, you know, another $20 million just for frosted mini-wheats, and then another $20 million just for frosted flakes. So that's number one, that these food companies have a lot of money to devote to marketing. But also it goes back to the lobbying, because a few years ago, there was this interagency working group that had to do with with the fda and and uh and the ftc and they wanted to pass which i thought was very reasonable voluntary voluntary standards that companies would have to meet in order to advertise to children well what did the food companies do they formed formed another front group. And again, these names kill me because they just sound like they went through a million focus groups. So this one was called the Sensible Food Policy Coalition.

and it's not even working anymore. So I guess some of these are kind of fly-by-night operations in the sense that they need to achieve something, and then they're done. But the Sensible Food Policy Coalition, it had basically the usual suspects, the big food companies, the fast food chains, and their whole plan was to shoot down these standards that these four federal agencies had put together

and they did it because the the federal trade commission chairman he squashed it and it was it was only voluntary anyway right yeah that's what i'm saying they freak out even over voluntary guidelines like there was no yeah there was no uh sort of mandatory burden on them to do it was just if you wish you could do this and they don't even want that it's sort of like it's taking the hard line in the way the nra does it's like don't you know don't even give an inch because you're creating a slippery slope so you know defend your you know your battle line to the death and never let it move. Yeah, absolutely.

It's right out of their playbook. It is. And where I differ with some food policy advocates is that some food policy advocates think that what we need to do is establish guidelines so that if you want to advertise on Nickelodeon or on Saturday morning cartoons, you need to have a product that has no more than X grams of sugar and at least X grams of fiber. That to me only makes the problem worse.

Because when you put those kinds of guidelines on the food industry, what they're going to do is, you know, get a bunch of GMO ingredients and some artificial sweeteners and process it to death. And then there you go. There's 120 calorie snack bar with eight grams of sugar, but it's, you know, filled with chemicals or not healthy. So I don't think that's the answer. I think that just gives the food industry a very easy way out. So what is the answer? Come on, Andy. easy way out. So what is the answer? Come on, Andy. We're all relying on you. Oh, okay. Put me on the spot. Well, but again, you see, I mean, and again, this is more of a long-term thing, but this is where we have to rely on policy and find people who are willing to start tackling this issue. And there, and there are organizations like, uh, Corporate Accountability

International. Um, you know, these are all organizations that are, that are working on these issues. So somebody is out there actually devoting all their time and money to this. Uh, so I think supporting those efforts. Yeah. I'd love to get, um, like the links for any of these organizations so I can put it in the links for any of these organizations so I can put it in the show notes if people want to learn more or even get involved or contribute. Absolutely.

There's even the Center for Commercial Free Childhood. Yeah, so I can definitely send you some links to share with your listeners just so they can learn about some organizations that are devoting their energy to these sorts of issues. That would be great. I mean, I think PCRM is doing a pretty good job too.

Yeah. Especially with the school lunch programs, etc. Yeah, absolutely. I think, and again, it goes back to there's all sorts of different organizations made from different, coming from different dietary viewpoints but i think any anybody you can find who is not aligned to the food industry that's a start right and that's the other thing too to always look at who's funding some organizations and who is there anybody in congress in the senate right now who kind of stands out as somebody who's kind of taken

charge on these issues or understands kind of some of the things you're speaking to? I mean, who can we champion or get behind who is in a position to enact legislative change? Well, yeah, that's where it's a little bit harder. But, for example, one person who stands out to me, not so much because of food issues, but when I think, for example, of Senator Elizabeth Warren, she just stands out to me because she's somebody who is talking about, you know, this, like, industry corruption, the lack of regulation, all these problems that,

I mean, granted, she's talking about it more in terms of banks and the financial system, but that also influences agriculture and it influences food companies. So that's why I think I was saying that it's not so much about looking for necessarily who in the Senate or in Congress is battling Coca-Cola per se, but who is talking about these issues of corporate control of law and how we need more regulation, anything like that? Those are the kinds of people that we need to be supporting more because by and large, a lot of people in Senate and Congress are being lobbied and being bought out, sadly. So, again, so through these organizations that can kind of congeal some power a little bit and put a little pressure on these people I think would be a good thing, right? I think one of the factors that can help bring change is putting public pressure on a group or an organization who is not acting accordingly. That's what they least want. They love to sweep things under the rug. So the more that you can call attention to things and call them out, that at least lets them know that they have to in some way deal with this or answer to people who are rightfully concerned. Yeah.

No, it's really important work. And my hat is off to you, my friend. Thank you. For doing that. I can't imagine. I mean, it's a hard trail you're blazing. And I'm sure you come up against quite a bit of resistance. And like I said, it's pretty courageous that you're doing it. And I applaud you. Thank you. And, and I in turn,

you know, also thank people like you who give me a platform to share my views, because I think that's key. You know, if it was just me, me in my bedroom, you know, talking to my cat about this, that wouldn't really achieve much. But that's where, you know, social media, but also people like you have a large platform. I'm very appreciative that you're able to give me the time to speak on this and, and reach an even wider audience. Oh, my pleasure. You know, I mean, that's, that's the thing with the podcast and, and it's been really fun doing it. Um, and, you know, it's been surprisingly powerful. And my favorite thing to do with it is to, you know, bring to the audience some points of view and some people they might not have heard of. You know, it's easy to like kind of get a celebrity or somebody that everyone's heard of and kind of hear the same interview you've already heard with that person a million times.

But, you know, there's so many amazing, talented people doing really important work. And I've been blessed to kind of be introduced to some of them and meet them along the way, you know, whether through Twitter or otherwise. And that's what I love doing. I love, you know, being able to use this platform to, you know, get voices like yourself out there because it's really important. And, you know, the Internet's powerful, man. important. And, and, you know, the internet's powerful, man. And, you know, if Congress is broken and bought and paid, and, and, you know, these big companies are, you know, owning the medical profession and the nutritionist profession, it's, it's on us, man, it's on us to do the kind of things that we're doing right now. So that, you know, people have more education to make better choices. And that's how things are going to change.

Yeah. And that's one thing that I tell people, too, is you don't have to be sitting in the Oval Office to make change. You can make change at a local level. You know, I think so many times we get caught up in this idea that unless I'm at the, you know, at the Capitol with a with a bill in hand, I'm not making change. capital with a, with a bill in hand of not making change. But that's not true because you can even change, say, if you can change the food that's offered at a local school where you live, that's huge. Oh, it's huge. If you can get a farmer's market in, if you can get more people in your community to, to garden, you know, I mean, to, you know, like to, to plant food, that's huge. So I think it's important to think about what you can do in your day-to-day because eating –

If you teach your kid one recipe that he or she can make, that's huge. I mean it's about those little things. Yeah, exactly, not to get overwhelmed. And also I also just want to take a few minutes just to also thank people who have kind of blazed the trail for me uh and i say this also that your your listeners might be interested in in their work because it did definitely influence me so i write i definitely recommend marion nestle's book food politics i recommend michelle simon's book appetite for profit and you know mark bitman is also somebody who writes a lot about these issues who has really influenced me so So I just wanted to say thank you to them. Yeah, absolutely. And I think

Mark Bittman's new book, did it just come out? I think it came out like yesterday. It did. Vegan Before Six. He takes a very reasonable, eminently doable, flexitarian approach to a vegan diet. And he's an interesting guy because he writes for the New York Times. He's been doing it for a long time as a food critic and is a guy who admittedly loves food and ran into some health issues and started playing around with a plant-based diet and has sort of realized the health benefits of that, but also struggles with his love for, you know,

foods that are not vegan and how do you reconcile that. And so his book kind of speaks to that. And I have no doubt it's going to be a big New York Times bestseller. Yeah. And I think that messages like those are key. You know, he also is very big on cooking and cooking from scratch in a way that's super easy and doable and low maintenance. So those messages are also very important. That's right, man. Eat real food. What else?

I've taken up enough of your time. We got to wrap it up here. But any other words of wisdom you want to leave the audience with? Ooh, putting me on the spot again. Hey, man, it's high stakes. Come on, I'm going to bring you a game. That's right. Well, I would say eat real food, and also I would say stay informed and stay abreast of situations.

Read. You know, eat real food and then read about food. Those are my other three words, read about food. And by that, I mean not just recipes, but read about what's happening with our food supply, with our food system, and why it matters. Great advice, man. Thank you. All right, Andy, thanks so much for taking the time to be on the show. I thoroughly enjoyed this.

As did I. My pleasure. Thank you so much. Very illuminating. So if people want to find out more about you, they should go to andybalotti.com. Is that the best place? Or why don't you throw a few links out, you know, Twitter and the like where people can connect with you? Perfect. Yeah. So andybalotti.com, that's my website. It's also a link to my blog on Twitter. Two L's, two T's, right? Yes. Good point. Cause it, it, it gets misspelled all the time. Yes. Thank you for that. Uh, on Twitter, I'm at Andy Bilotti, all one word, two L's, two T's. And if you're interested

in that Facebook group that although it's called dietitians for professional integrity, you can join if you're not an RD, but you support our mission, you can like us and stay informed. And that's that facebook.com slash dietitians for professional integrity. All right. There you go. And listen, health freaks, you got to follow this guy on Twitter. He's constantly posting great stuff. And you write for Huffington Post and a variety of other blogs and news sources.

And it's always illuminating. And I always love taking it in personally. So can't recommend it enough. Well, excellent. That means a lot. Thank you. All right. So that's it, man.

Thanks a lot. How do you feel? It flew by. I feel refreshed. Good. And I feel like I might go out for a run maybe. That's what I like to hear. There we go.

I wasn't too hard on you, was I? Did I ask the right questions? Yeah, no, you were great. Yeah, I thoroughly enjoyed every minute. All right. All right, take it easy. Thanks a lot. All right, thank you.

All right, peace. Plants. Thank you.