The Rich Roll Podcast - Olympian Aaron Peirsol’s Love Affair With Water

Episode Date: November 16, 2015

If you follow competitive swimming, Aaron Peirsol needs no introduction. The commonly spun narrative goes something like this: the greatest backstroker in swimming history, Aaron Peirsol is a giant among men. The very definition of a high performing elite athlete with a slew of world-records and Olympic gold medals to prove it. But Aaron is not his career. Aaron Peirsol is different. Let's set the stage. Aaron burst onto the international swimming scene at the age of 17, walking away from the 2000 Sydney Olympics with a silver medal in the 200m backstroke. At the 2004 Olympics in Athens, Aaron won gold in both the 100m and 200m backstroke (that one by an incredible 2.5 secs) and a third gold leading off the 4×100 medley relay. At the 2008 Olympics in Beijing, Aaron took gold in the 100m backstroke and the 4×100 medley relay, taking silver in the 200m back behind teammate Ryan Lochte. The following year, Aaron raised the bar one last time with a stunning 1:51.93 world record setting performance in the 200m backstroke at the World Championships in Rome — a world record that to this day still stands – an astonishing 6 years later. 7 Olympic medals. 5 gold, 2 silver. 10 long-course World Championships. Aaron is of course incredibly proud of his accomplishments. But victories, defeats, podiums and bling fail to tell the story of Aaron Peirsol. They are not who he is. Over the course of his career, I vividly recall watching Aaron on television — one triumph after another. But far more interesting than his performances was how he acquitted himself outside the pool. There is just something completely unique about this guy. He is unlike any other high performing athlete I know. More contemplative. Consistently thoughtful. A bit soft spoken. And always laid back. More soul surfer than Type-A competitor. How does a guy so chill thrive in such a pressure cooker universe? Not just through 1 Olympiad but 3? Today I get answers. Today we enter the world of elite competitive swimming. A consideration of his career and the elements required to not just win, but keep winning. But most of the conversation centers around character — what makes Aaron tick. His perspective might surprise you. Because for Aaron, it’s not about competition – it never was. For him, it’s about a lifelong love affair with water. For him, it’s always been a spiritual journey. Specifics covered today include: * the world of elite competitive swimming * the importance of coaching & mentorship * Aaron's preparation for the 2004 Olympics * acceptance & surrender in the wake of his Olympic DQ * Aaron's love affair with water * Aaron's spiritual vs. competitive nature * career sustainability & passion * the fallacy of ‘use it or lose it' * the perils of overtraining * characteristics of fellow Olympians * retirement motivations * environmental interests * what it means to own your journey What is the core motivation behind your passion? I'd love to hear all about it in the comments section below. Aaron is a special guy. It was an honor to spend time with him. I think you will feel the same. I sincerely hope you enjoy the exchange. Peace + Plants, Rich

Basically, you have a love affair with that task, and you find yourself in it. It's meditation. And that's what water, ever since I was a kid, was for me. And for me, it was always a matter of how deep my relationship could be with the water. That's Olympic swimming gold medalist and world record holder Aaron Pearsall. And this is the Rich Roll Podcast. The Rich Roll Podcast.

Hey, what's up, everybody? Thanks for dropping by. I'm Rich Roll. This is a podcast. It's my podcast. It's the podcast where I commune with the paradigm-shifting outliers across all categories of positive culture change, health, fitness, nutrition, academia, tech, consciousness, and spirituality. And in the case of today's guest, world-class athletic performance. The plan is simple, to help all of us unlock and unleash our best, most authentic selves. So thank you so much for subscribing to the show on iTunes, for taking a moment to leave us a review on iTunes. And of course, for always using the Amazon banner ad at richroll.com for all your Amazon purchases. We appreciate that habit.

It really helps us out a lot. Okay, so before I get into today's show, I just want to take a moment to say a few words about the horrific occurrences in both Beirut and Paris over the last couple days. These are two cities that I just so happen to have spent time in over the last few weeks. I was in Paris for my birthday at the end of October, and of course I was in Beirut last week to participate in the marathon there. I didn't go to Beirut to race it or to set a PR. It really was not an athletic adventure. I was really

there as this emissary of peace and unity, which is the mission of the marathon since its inception 13 years ago. The race kind of stands as this effort to bridge the gargantuan gap that separates a people incredibly divided by politics, religion, and of course, a robust history of violence. And as the saying goes, in Lebanon, there is one gunshot a year that isn't part of a scene of routine violence, and that is the opening sound of the Beirut Marathon. It was an amazing event. I'm really proud to have been there to help share that story. Unfortunately, just two days after my departure, we saw these suicide bombings perpetrated in a neighborhood that I myself traversed just a week ago. in a neighborhood that I myself traversed just a week ago. I'm in Atlanta now, but my heart is still very much in both Paris and Beirut. I'm deeply saddened by the horrible events, this sudden and violent turn of events that really has left me in despair.

I don't know what to say, but I do know this. I'm sitting here recording this, and my eyes are looking down upon and gazing upon this yellow ribbon that's tied around my wrist it was a gift given to me by the Beirut Marathon founder May El Khalil, she tied it on my wrist

herself and in bold black letters are sewn upon it the proud words of hope peace love, run. But if these events say anything, it's a reminder that, of course, peace is very fragile. It's hard-wrought. But my hope is that hope itself can endure in these places.

So to my friends in both Paris and Lebanon, may these events not quell that hope. I don't know what's going on. I'm really left without words. But I'm reminded of some beautiful words uttered by my friend Jedediah Jenkins, who was a guest on the podcast not so long ago. And I'm going to read them to you. These appear in a recent Instagram post of his and it goes like this. Travel spreads your heart around the world. It's not a headline. It's human beings you've had beers with,

sand you felt on your feet, trees you've climbed, roofs you've slept beneath. The world becomes a real place full of human beings, each one as important as you'll ever be. Your heart becomes a bustling city full of human beings, each one as important as you'll ever be. Your heart becomes a bustling city full of real voices. Your heart hurts not just for these people, but with them. Your heart hurts not just for these people, but with them. And what I take from that is that

travel leads to empathy. And that's something that I've experienced over the last month. By traveling to these places, by getting to know the people there, I have a deeper reservoir of empathy for what they must be going through. And today I'm filled with that empathy. All right, switching gears to today's show. I'm very excited to have Aaron Pearsall on the podcast today. For those that follow the sport of competitive swimming, you already know who this guy is because he is literally one of the giants of the sport,

perhaps the greatest backstroker in swimming history, but he's also a lot more. For the uninitiated, Aaron debuted internationally at the Sydney Olympics at the age of 17 with a silver medal in the 200 meter backstroke. He then went on to win seven Olympic medals, five gold, two silver, plus 10 long course world championships. At the 2004 Olympics, Aaron won gold in both the 100-meter and 200-meter backstroke. That one he won by two and a half seconds. That is like an eternity in the world of swimming, as well as taking home a gold in the 4x100 meter medley relay. In 2008, Aaron took gold in the 100 meter backstroke, as well as in the 4x100 meter medley relay, and silver in the 200 meter back behind teammate Ryan Lochte. At the 2009 World Championships

in Rome, Aaron once again broke his world record in the 200 meter back. And that is a record that to this day still stands an astonishing six years, an eon in the sport of swimming where world records are getting toppled and broken all the time. So this is, of course, a conversation about his career, about what it's like to compete and win and keep winning at the Olympic level. But there are a lot of athletes like this, but there's something about Aaron that is different. And that, that's what interested me in talking to him. So I got a lot more I want to say on that in a minute, but first. All right, today's show, Aaron Pearsall. Did I say he's different from the typical athlete? I'm telling you, this guy is different. Over the course of Aaron's career,

collecting world records and Olympic gold medals and world championships, I would watch this guy on TV and I just think, there's something about this guy that is unlike the other high-performing athletes that I know. He's an environmentalist passionate about the oceans. He's contemplative. He's thoughtful. He comes across very soft spoken and incredibly laid back. He just doesn't seem like the other guys. And he's always struck me as much more soul surfer than elite performer. much more soul surfer than elite performer. So how does a guy so chill operate in that pressure cooker universe? Not just through one Olympics, but two and then some. Well, this is a probing and considerate conversation about what makes Aaron tick.

It's about the world of elite competitive swimming, of course, and the elements required to not just win but keep winning, but it's also about the mentality and the psychology behind his accomplishments. And I think Aaron's perspective just might surprise you a little bit. Because for him, it's not about competition. And it never was. For him, it's about a lifelong love affair with water. For him, It's a spiritual journey. Cool, man. Well, we're starting the podcast, but I feel like we're just, we started to hit record mid podcast cause we've been sitting around probably good that we started. Yeah. So now we're officially on the mic, man.

Right. Thanks for, uh, making the trip all the way up from Newport to do this, man. It's super nice to finally meet you. I've been following you for a long, long time, certainly followed your career and the things that you've been doing since your retirement, and I feel like we have a lot of common interests and lots of stuff we can talk about today. I agree. Actually, that was one of the interesting things, listening to your podcast. I was actually seeing a lot of things that I align with.

I just go sit there and go, okay, I'm not sure what we're going to talk about today. I feel like you've talked about it a ton on your podcast anyway. Well, we don't have to have any big agenda and it's going to go where it wants to go which is the beauty of the whole thing right cool um but yeah man we were uh we were introduced by our mutual friend jack roach uh from usa swimming who had the good fortune to meet when he brought me up to the olympic training center last winter um and i got to spend a bunch of time with him. And I just, I love that guy, right? And he's such a cool dude.

And he was like, you got to meet Aaron. You got to meet Aaron. And so he just, he birthed this. He made this happen. Yeah, here's to Jack. Here we are, yeah. So Jack, I know you're listening. One of the more unassuming, potent human beings

that I've probably ever known, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, explain to people who Jack Roach is. I think it's worth talking about that a little bit. It is, 100%. I was actually going to try to at least bring that point up too because it was probably totally appropriate that we at least talk about the thing that brought us together.

But Jack, he's a man who is one of my best friends, but the guy is 70 years old, right? They're coming up on it. And he's one of those human beings. He's a person that actually made me realize that I was going to be friends with certain people I align with no matter how old they they were in a sense I could somebody I um was able to well just over the years I've I've grown very close and connected with and

and in many ways that uh Jack is um one of the best things that I think I probably came out of the sport of swimming with in the last five or six years to myself. And then in the last little bit too, you know, and I, we just missed each other because I was in Colorado Springs seeing Jack. I was, I think I was there for something, but I stayed with him for like two weeks and you had just been and spoken to

the youth or the junior, the national junior team. Right. And I heard it was amazing. I mean, you know. It was fun to do it. I was like, I couldn't believe Jack asked me to do it. Like, I was just psyched to be there.

And that's one thing that Jack does so well. He certainly picks, you know, people that he picks the right kind of, he creates the right kind of atmosphere. And so for me, I, uh, when he was, cause he was, he was, I think he's been trying to put us together for a while. I kind of just said, okay, well, if that guy thinks any friend of Jack's is a friend of mine. Yeah. And that's kind of what it came down to. So, yeah, I mean, Jack, his official title is director of USA Swimming National Junior Team, or I don't know what exactly his title is. And it was. I think he's actually starting to kind of pull out of it now.

But he's been heading the National Junior Team now for some time. He's been heading the national junior team now for some time. And if there's a person who can, I think, relate or empathize to, you know, anybody who they're coaching or whatever it might be, the power of what he's been able to do with it as um well it he i can see what he does and he develops relationships with the athletes that he's has it's not coaching it's beyond that and i think that that's something i think probably one of the more more poignant things of uh you know coaching to say he's a coach kind of belittles what he actually does. Right. I mean, we were talking about this a little bit before the podcast. I mean, he, he is, he's 70 years old, but he kind of conduct, he has a very childlike nature

to him and he's able to really connect with young people, um, in a profound way and also be a very positive influence on their lives. Cause he like really cares, like he's invested, you know, and he wants to see these kids achieve their goals and their dreams, etc. And I think the kids feel that. So what you often see in it in kind of a coach or athlete relationship is there's a power dynamic, like the coaches up here, the coach tells you what to do, and you do it, right? Jack doesn't, Jack's very different in that, like he's down there on the deck, and, you know a joke right after one of the swimmers cracks a joke. And everybody knows that he's in charge or whatever, but it's a different kind of relationship and rapport.

And I think as a result of carrying himself in that way, he engenders the deep trust of all of these athletes and you'll see generation after generation of amazing world record holders and olympic swimmers who still stay very very close to him like he you know he's in their lives right like they trust him they believe in him he's a mentor they call him when they're in trouble they call him when they need advice and like he's always there right you want a very special person you want to know the the glue of some kind of community, he would be one of those figures. Right. And a very pivotal figure in the sport itself.

But, yeah, he's incredible. The guy ran 60 miles on his 65th birthday for trying out Latin. Yeah, he runs his age in miles every year for his birthday. Plant-based athlete. That's how I think we first, like, we were like Facebook friends. Yeah. I was like, who is this guy? And I was like, oh, wow, this guy is really interesting.

You know, like we kind of started communicating online, and I was watching what he was doing. And, you know, so spry and energetic for somebody of his age. And the uh, the guy's been like plant-based since the sixties or something like that. He's way ahead of it. Yeah. He's way ahead of it. He's, he's not slowing down whatsoever. Um, but I, I do think that the element of empowerment within the athletes is something that I think almost he is, can be single-handedly kind of creating to the point where everyone within the sport, especially, and that's what's kind of interesting. You have an entire national team who's very veteran on, say, the men's side

or the women's side in the USA swimming. And you have someone like Jack who nobody knows of outside of the sport but in many ways is is uh is is what is kind of behind the scenes keeping people you know straight if they've kind of veer off or whatever it might be and and uh or just you know the guy who brings them into their home when they come into Colorado Springs to go to the Olympic Training Center. I mean, you retired in 2011, but you go up there and stay with them for two weeks.

What were you doing up there? I don't know. Well, Jack's and my relationship has grown to the point where we just get along. And I think a lot of people would probably would say the same thing but um we're just easy and when we get when we get together it's it's talk of things that just kind of come together um it goes off on tangents but we can talk about getting on a sailboat and taking off for you know a, a year. Or, you know, we align on quite a few things,

and a lot of it, and some of it, a lot of it, has to do with kind of even where we see or have seen, like, the state of sport and just that, you know, the emphasis or the perspective of what, you know, the sport as a whole, the coaches, the athletes, whatever it might be. So he and I would get together, actually, and we'd just find ourselves. At a certain point, that was really all I became interested in

because I was starting to become fairly aware of something outside of myself within an environment that I was in. And he was one of the only guys that would really entertain that and actually have it resonate with. And, and, um, and then, you know, it's, there's, there's a, there's a bit of a balanced, more broad perspective in a gentleman like that. Yeah. So in other words, you know, I want to get into like, we're going to go back and we're going to talk about all your swimming stuff, but like, I'm really interested in, in, in, you know, kind of where you're at now. I want to camp out there for a little bit. And it kind of,

it's weird because I don't know you. I mean, I've been following your career forever and my total exposure to you is just watching you swim on television and big meets and then trying to extract from that some sense of what you're, what you're about and what your character is other than what I can read in a very brief article. Sure. Um, and I feel like you're somebody who, uh, is somewhat perhaps a little bit distinct amongst your swimming peers in that you always seem very, very grounded, and you always seem to have interests outside of the pool, right?

And so when you're talking about going up and seeing Jack many years after you've retired and trying to figure out how to give back, there's a sense of connection there to swimming, like how can you contribute? And I feel like that swimming like how can you contribute and i feel like that idea of like how can i contribute or how can i use this this privileged position that i'm in to like do good has sort of infused uh you know how you've approached your sport in your life for a long time right um yeah and when i when i was done it was an interesting and what there was a in an immediate interest in figuring out how to stay connected with it. So you weren't like, I'm moving on, I'm completely done with swimming.

Yeah, when I retired, or moved on, or whatever you want to call it, but when I finished, I finished in a way that I've never lost a day of sleep over it. And, and, uh, I hung my suit up and hung my goggles up, but I always knew that I would, and I hung them up in the pool that I grew up in. It was very poetic in that way. And I, and I, but I always knew I'd still be swimming. And I, there was, I I was starting to kind of understand too though that there was there was an element to kind of going back to uh the whole reason that I even maybe started to begin to swim with to begin or when I started to begin swimming when I was a kid that I realized was probably very necessary to go and reconnect with.

And also, I think putting in perspective those last few years are just, I guess, where the state of swimming was, the sport that I spent so much time around and that I really do care about. And so, you know, a lot of of i think that that at least when i was immediately done with the sport and it's still an interest but i've i've definitely kind of gone through over the last three or four years it was uh it was wondering in to what capacity because i to stay involved to and to give back in what way that's been i think in regards to the sport anyway an interesting kind of exercise um thought experiments there's all the time going on

no one way of being able to figure it out yet there's many ways that have been i think you are you still you are part of like the fina athlete committee or something like that are you still doing that i am yeah um and that's what is that about oh and that's that's fine and that's but that that can be like uh beating your head against a brick wall sometimes too you know it's like you know and I bureaucrats about rules in the sport I it's it's it's the it's that kind of adage where it's you know you're you're you're in a place to be able to to do something you have the time to be able to do something. You have the time to be able to do it, and you step in, and you realize that you're going to have to devote the next decade of your life completely to this in order to make much of a difference in that way.

And that's a really, you look at FINA, which is the International Governing Body, really, you look at like FINA, which is the International Governing Body, and it's just different. I look at it and I would often be told to take a step back and be more patient.

And I'm looking at it and just going, God, what are we doing this for? This is swimming. But bureaucracy isn't in Congress. It's like... As a result of that experience, This is swimming. It doesn't, you know. Right. But bureaucracy will end it anyway. This isn't Congress. You know, it's like. Well, I mean, when you, you know, as a result of that experience, I mean.

But it's necessary. Yeah. I mean, you know, it's, you know, you have the aspect of something like FINA. And for us, it's about having the athletes trying to enable them to have a voice. And because right now it's um there for a long time and i think even those that were heading fiona understood that they needed more of a representative uh demographic and and and so my interest was to go in and try to figure out which way to go but that that's that creates it i mean that is its own animal and entity too right i mean at the end of the day you're just going okay then maybe there's

another way right i mean when you look at the sport right now and and if you had to articulate like what are the things that you'd like to see change or how it could be improved i mean what would that look like um i think uh it's you're i think we're talking about something on that i think it's representative of a lot of different things actually um you're talking about the sport of swimming but it it could be talking about any sport i think or maybe even beyond sport but um oftentimes it can be just a perspective or an emphasis. And we were talking about someone like Jack. And, you know, if you're a coach, what are you trying to build but a human being and like an emotionally healthy individual

and someone who's growing in many different facets, becoming a well-rounded individual. You know, certainly they're becoming proficient at swimming up and down a black line, but they're doing it on their own accord. And you're, you're helping this person kind of want to be there. Um, I think, uh, I think along those lines, it's keeping in perspective just as exactly what's going on. Um, what you're, what we're there for. And, you know, uh, you're And you're starting something like the sport. Everyone starts any sport with something very simple and innocent and pure.

It's because you like to play. And somewhere along the way, it might not be that way anymore. When the alarm goes off at 4.30, it doesn't feel like play anymore. But there's no better way to learn. Like, if you want to engage somebody and if you want to really make that proactive kind of, you know, immersion with anything that you're doing, there has to be some element of interest and excitement in education where they're learning something. And it crosses all facets it's an empowering of of the of the of the kid the coach who's humble enough to admit

they don't know everything and that's a pretty um hard thing and admittedly probably for a lot of people and on the athlete side it's to maintain the perspective of why what it was that started off that or to even really ask that question if you never asked before like why do you actually do it right not because your parents are making you do it or whatever but it's like you know it's just your choice yeah i mean it's something that starts off as fun and like you know a child becomes good at it they They become more interested in it. They become progressively more and more dedicated to it and they start to climb that ladder. And at some point, usually around ninth or tenth grade, it kind of tips into almost a job.

It becomes very intense and serious for the elite athlete. And then it becomes about collegiate swimming, NCAA level, and then the professional thing. I mean, that really barely existed when I was swimming, and now that's obviously a very, very real thing. And it's a sport that is so all-consuming, and that's not to say that an elite athlete in any discipline has to devote basically their entire life to being excellent, but there's something particular about swimming

that is just so sort of brutally intense. I don't know whether it's because there's no impact in it, so you can push yourself without getting injured longer, and you're in a pool so you don't overheat. And I just think the training load in swimming, the only equivalent that I can see is what professional cyclists do. They just train so hard, and there becomes very little room for anything else and so so then there's no bandwidth to develop interests outside of the pool and it takes like you know i

think it takes a lot of like you know either self-will or just some kind of character you know innate character that drives you to find something outside of it. But I feel like it's the exception rather than the rule. Like you became interested in the ocean and the environment and all of that. Like it seems like that was very early on as a result of your upbringing. You know, you have guys like Garrett Weber Gale, who's a friend. He's been on the podcast. He's super into cooking and food, and he has that.

And I have Rebecca Soni on the podcast, too. And you could hear her kind of, you know, struggling with that transition. And Jack and I talked a little bit about this, but I feel like it's almost incumbent upon the governing body or the organization to build in awareness about, you know, how you're going to create your life when this chapter is over, because it's only, you know, the very select few, you know, the Michael Phelpses or whatever, they're going to be able to perpetuate this beyond their early 20s before they have to go and live their life. And they have the entire rest of their life

where they've kind of gone through college where it was all about swimming. And it's like, all right, well, what now? And, of course, this would apply to any elite athlete in any discipline with the exception of people that go on and play in the NBA or whatever. Right. I, uh, it's, it's something that can start very young. There are a couple of, there are a handful of, and I was fortunate, very fortunate to have people around me that, um, instilled some very good things and at least helped reinforce those. I had some really good coaches.

And fortunately, that did, you know, allow or did actually, to some degree, to a big degree, especially more than most, I think, offer a bit of empowerment to at least let me understand that this was my choice. Right. least let me understand that this was my this was my choice right like i thought i was i had to want to be here and and uh or and to be there and do it and uh and so it freed up the my other mental faculties maybe to at least have other interests even if at the time i wasn't really able to pursue those i was at least able to think outside of that and, and at times, you know, be able to kind of check those out. But it was, uh, but there, there's a big element to that.

It's, and that's the, I think that's the irony too, right? You know, if, if you, if you enable somebody to really make that choice, they, you know, they, they will do better. They will be better. Right. Um, so if you ask me what I wanted to do with the sport when I was done, it's, it's, I mean, that was like, if Jack and I would get together, it was to figure out how to, um, or it was to talk about stuff like this right and to um and to wonder if there was a way to really it's just opening the dialogue kind of kind of opening the discussion and at least engaging a bit of thought where there where maybe before there hadn't really been much and and uh and to not say that this is not going to be productive, but it's actually quite necessary.

And so really that's the only thing that, in my mind, I think that would solve. I think engaging a certain aspect of ensuring a certain aspect of emotional health and well-being and that growth from a very young age and empowerment, I think you'd alleviate a lot of issues and things or whatever that might come up eventually. And a big issue of coming from something that's so all-encompassing

and that has such a sense of purpose to you know when you're done with it you know having to you know find another way or to transition out of that yeah um i think that can be uh because i don't think it's just swimming it's not and i see it in every sport i think it can be um it can be a cushion, at least a certain kind of understanding within the individual that there's going to be other things. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, I think psychologically, it's a huge challenge because literally overnight you go from being somebody who basically has their needs met and are kind of on a program where everything's sort of taken care of

and all they have to worry about is training. And they're getting a lot of attention and a lot of positive feedback. And it's exciting. You're traveling the world and you're winning fancy medals and you're on the cover of magazines. And then you say, okay, I'm done. And then it's over with like that. It's like it's almost a, you know, PTSD-provoking sort of scenario.

And, you know, I think it's fair to say that a lot of people probably do have some form of that, right? Like, how could you not? You know, how could you not? Your life changes so dramatically overnight. And you're like, oh, man, now here I am. But I feel like, and correct me if I'm wrong but I feel like you've you were able to make a pretty graceful departure from the sport I mean you could say yeah I mean you did I don't know what else there was left for you to do and you did everything you know

but that doesn't necessarily keep people from not wanting to come back you know there are other people out there who've done a lot and then they still like they got to come back because I don't know they're you know something else isn't working in their life or they still have something to prove or something like that right but i feel like you kind of very gracefully walked walked away and and you're finding your way in the real world and i feel like my perspective on that and again tell me if i'm way off base here, but you seem to be like kind of this guy who is always a bit of a soul surfer in the sport. There's a lot of intensity and there's a lot of type A personalities and very focused individuals.

And certainly you had to be some form of that on every level to be able to accomplish what you've accomplished. But I feel like you had a different relationship to it maybe then some of your peers because it seemed like um the externalities of it right weren't really as important to you as maybe they were for some other people like your relationship with the result of your your efforts uh uh meant something different to you and that's why I thought this would be a fun interview. Because I actually knew you, and I think I knew you kind of, I knew that we would at least be able to relate on that level. And so, no, there is a lot of truth to that. There was, for a long time, because I think of how I,

maybe where I grew up and what my original intent of the water and swimming was, um, it was a bit different and I was able to, I kept a pretty good idea, pretty good head, I guess, just of what I was doing throughout my career. And it was very much my own. I was able to kind of, and that was something I'm very thankful for. I was able to kind of, it was something I was so quite sure of, too, that I was able to push away certain distractions that might come around if you stick around something long enough, anything really. distractions that might come around if you stick around something long enough anything really and and in any kind of professional sport too you have a lot of different distractions and

and uh and so i was really thankful for that and and i i think part of it was because i i typically felt like i had i was swimming for something a bit more visceral I had a couple of interesting you know I guess you swim for a decade on the national team or whatever you're going to have a few but I had a couple of interesting experiences right where they tended to nail at home real good really really hard and and it was nice to have them around incredibly humbling incredibly sobering to where you know you just get slapped across the face and you just go oh yeah that's right i remember now you know you have no choice like i've been disqualified the olympic games you know the medal was handed back to me an hour later

but but you know having that taken away from me um was probably for those for that hour it was one of the one of the most magical probably moments, I think, that, you know, experiences that I felt like I could have had, partly because it offers that dose of perspective really, you know, and in such a very heavy-handed way, and you have no choice but to reflect on why the heck you're there anyway, and what you're doing there, and you're going, what just happened? And then you go, oh, it's actually a – you realize you're learning something. You're so glad you're learning outside of it. Yeah, I mean, just to kind of – let's hang out on this story for a little bit

because it is kind of an amazing thing. It was 2004. It was a 200 back, the Olympic Games. And you were the first to touch the wall. Right. Look up at the scoreboard. Yeah. Won the gold medal.

And then shortly thereafter, how long after that before they informed you that you had perpetrated an illegal turn and they were going to disqualify you? Yeah. I mean, this was my favorite race, too, right? It was a race I had wanted to win since I was 10, 11, 12 years old. And I had already won a gold medal in the 100 back. And so I was a gold medalist. That feeling was unique unto itself.

But the one that i like was very meaning there was one that was going to be meaningful why was it why is it 200 so much more important to you than 100 um as a swimmer you probably they get you understand this but i i uh i it wasn't a i it was hard for me to be a sprinter. I wasn't able to take it out very hard, but I could come back pretty well. And I was able to find a rhythm in the stroke that was just, it was nice. And I couldn't get into it in a hundred, but I could get into it in a 200. And I was not the strongest guy. I mean, I'm, I'm not small. I mean, I'm six,2", 6'3", but I'm not strong. And so I'm racing against guys who are a lot stronger than the 100.

I never thought I was going to be a good 100 swimmer, a sprinter. But the 200, I was always able to look at and just go. And I trained for it, too. And my coach, Dave Salo, that coached me in Irvine, helped me really understand that event. I learned how to swim that race. helped me really understand that event. I learned how to swim that race, and I really do believe it, better than anybody at the time. And I learned how to swim it in and out and up and down, and it felt amazing.

There was a confidence in me that it was an understanding that I actually knew how to, um, I knew how to immerse myself into that particular event. So it was a sense of like ownership over that, like, this is your special thing. It probably, probably turned into that at some point. And I, and I even, uh, and I think too, it, it just became something of, uh, that, that was the one that I felt like I had the best relationship with. I knew the most about it. You'd won silver in the 200 back at the 2000 Olympics, but you had yet to be atop the podium at the Olympic Games. That's right.

And I broke the world record two years prior in the 200 backstroke. And I had been doing well in the 200 back or in backstroke, but in the 200 back since i was very young i was a very good swimmer when i was very young and um and so that taking taking that to the olympics and this happened in athens um i was ahead of the field by like two and a half seconds going into finals. And I think my, my record was like swimming. That's like, you know, you're just lapping people basically. It was like a joke. And it was a, it was, it was just, I was, I was,

I was feeling very good. I was on, I was on my game and I, and I, was really hitting a certain stride and I, and I knew that this was, and it was. Looking back on my career, that was that gap between being too young to really compete at my best and having been around long enough to where the competition can catch up to you, kind of where that inevitability. And I was in this middle period where the competition hadn't quite seen, figured out how to cross that gap yet. So I was going into that race that night.

I was nervous, of course, but understanding that I just had to kind of, you know, not lose my stuff. Right, it's yours to lose, not lose my, not lose my stuff. It's yours to lose, right? And I was fine with that. Just don't screw up. Yeah. And it was just don't screw up. And, uh, and yeah, in not so many terms. Right. And, and I remember, I mean, that whole thing was, it was beautiful. I mean, you have the Olympic games in Athens, Greece, where they all began and you have, you have a beautiful afternoon and it was, it was a little bit harder than than probably what it is outside right now, but it was gorgeous. It was sunny, and it's hot in Southern California right now, but it was sunny, and the sun was going down, and the wind had calmed down.

It had really been up. The wind had been blasting for a few days before that, so the flags weren't blowing against the wall and stuff. So it was really good conditions. And the race went well. I mean, it went well. Nothing stuck out. Touched the wall. Looked over.

The guys next to me, the guy who got silver in the 100 back, that Stanford guy, Marcus Rogan, a good friend of mine, he got silver, and like I said, he got silver in the hundred too so it was one of those things where there was an elation in him that was really neat to see he was going to go back to austria here no one had done that in 50 or 60 years and austrian swimmer austrian swimmer figure and amazing one and and so get out of the water, and I'm walking back, and I just remember, you know, you hear something very strange, but you hear this, like, just awful collective gasp of 10,000 people. And, you know, and that one, it just kind of makes your guts, you know, kind of drop. And I remember turning around, and it was just like that word it was

like that strange surreal kind of non-reality where you're looking up and you're just especially in a moment like that you know when you're going see your name that's supposed to be up in first place you know and it could drop all the way down to last place and it said disqualified next to it and you're just going and I and I I mean i'll never forget it because at that point i well i don't i mean i you have a pretty good grasp of the sport and like what's going on and and you look up and you're just going i did not see that coming that's interesting and i just remember and there's a there's a certain kind of lack here's just you realize this lack of control that you have. And what was interesting

was I was actually okay in that. I realized that was it. My gun was out. I was out of bullets. And I was just looking up at that, just going, so that's how this ends up. Yeah, I mean, you have a choice. You can throw a temper tantrum.

You can storm around. And you made this choice to kind of just surrender to what is. Like you had an acceptance. And I talked to Jack about this story. And the way that he relates it is there was a very palpable sense of you being okay with it. Not that you're happy that it happened, you were like it is what it is man and you are able to like kind of acquit yourself and carry yourself with like some dignity and a level of like surrender to what had happened um without you know kind of devolving into you know

being kind of you know a lesser version of yourself so to speak you know what i mean you get it and you you start to put yourself in that situation and you go, how would I react? And it's like, would you blame somebody for getting angry enough and throwing a chair into the pool or like growing despondent enough to just crawl into a corner and cry? And, um, and you wonder like how much should this, should something like this mean? And, um, should something like this mean and um and and so that was something that i think at the time i didn't quite understand at least what i was standing there but i do remember walking back to the warm down pool and that that talk about perspective right about that moment when you just go like oh yeah like okay like slapping you across the face. And it really kind of comes down to you're walking back

and you're realizing you're actually somewhat quite fulfilled. You're going, okay, that's strange. You're confused enough to know that you need to get away from the cameras that are flashing on you and the NBC cameras that want to do an interview with you in 30 seconds, and you're going, what do you want me to say? I don't know anything. If anything, you're asking them what do you want me to say? You know, I don't know anything. If anything, you're asking them like, do you know what happened? Cause I had no idea. And, um, you know, and we're going back and looking at it and looking at it.

And I'm just thinking, and I had an idea, like maybe it was this, maybe it was this, but I saw, I saw what it would have been like going past 15 meters on the start. Didn't do that. And the turns turns i would never do that on a turn and so i just for those who are listening who don't aren't that familiar with swimming you can you can kick underwater for the first 15 meters after after each wall but if you don't if you don't come break the surface of the water at that point or before that point you can get disqualified right because it's supposed to be that much faster and uh and so there there are

just such few so few things you could would get disqualified for at that stage at the olympic level did you like not touch the wall right you know it's like it's like going back and going like what you know what exactly was it i like did i accidentally pull on the lane line in that race and you know this is i would have probably made sure not to do that. Did they show a replay on the big monitor or anything like that? I think they might have, but I think what it came... You're in like a fugue state, right? Like you don't know what's going on. Yeah. Time is compressing.

And I'm at the point too, where I'm, I know that race so well that I would know if I did something. And, uh, and, and so it totally caught me by surprise. And so that was a part of it. And that was a part of actually why I was okay. Because I realized deep down, viscerally, I had done nothing wrong. And then all of a sudden I realized, and that's a big part of it. That could enrage you. That could make it worse.

Like this injustice that has been perpetrated. Yeah. And the strange thing is, though, I think maybe sometimes when that stuff happens, it sometimes, I don't know if I feel it empowers me, but it does make me feel, because things like that don't happen, I guess. Like that, that don't happen very often, of course. like that don't happen, I guess.

Like that, that don't happen very often, of course. But in a sense to where it reinforces something you kind of knew, but now it's just you have no choice but to face up to it. And at that time, it really was this kind of realization that it was just like, you know what? I'd be here anyway. I would have done it anyway. And I, you know, I mean, the Olympics, after being in them,

and I've been in three, they're an amazing pinnacle of what sport is. But they're also a spectacle, you know? And it's like, you know, it's fun to be on that stage and to do that aspect of it. But the other 99.9% of the time, you're not. You're having this experience. Right. And it has to be about more than something than just that.

You're not necessarily, if all you really cared about was that like 0.01% of what you were doing throughout your entire career, that'd be a, I mean, you'd be missing out throughout your entire career um that'd be a i mean you you'd be missing out on your entire life really and and it's but i feel like there's probably a lot of people that for for which that is that is what it's about and that's the unfortunate part and i think that um and i think that that's that point of perspective and you're sitting back and you're going, you're going, okay, I, you know, was, did I, did I do the other things right? Um, and what I mean by that is like, in other words, did I, how's, how's the journey and the process been so far? Like what led up to this and what I, um, what I still do it. And I it and I mean I could still see myself just going

wholesome for the rest of my life like it it made me realize that I wasn't going to be defining any of myself or my career on this particular moment because it almost had I could reflect back on it as being an example of something that would help me keep in mind what was really important but it wasn't going to be this uh it was going to be a defining moment but not something i would define myself by if that makes any sense that's an interesting distinction yeah i mean i think you know by all accounts from you know people that i've heard this story from you know they said he was just, Aaron was so calm, no one could figure out why he wasn't more upset.

Oh, I would, I was, well, I mean, for a minute, I was kind of confused, but I've never been one just to kind of lose my stuff. Yeah, you know, it's not like I'm not the guy who's going to throw his chair in the pool. I have before, I have before. Coach not like I'm not the guy who's going to throw his chair in the pool. I have before. I have before. Coach on the cell phone after the 20 times you've told him to get off.

I've lost my cool. But, like, you know, in that situation, I don't know. You realize that you realize, I don't know, and certainly it's such an opportunity to kind of, you know, even, you're not meaning to, but it's an opportunity to kind of, you know, at least represent something fairly gracefully or whatever it might be and not that you're gonna ever plan for something like that but it's uh but again it's that aspect of of understanding very and you go back to the like i go back to the team and i can see people and i get it like you know how people will react so you see people who even want to start maybe pitying you they don't know how to react they don't know how to treat you and any of know how to treat you and that kind of thing. And so you kind of, especially when you're trying to figure it out,

you want to avoid that. But it's really important, I think, and it shouldn't be overlooked that an element like that is actually really important because it actually brings you back, if you'll open yourself up to the experience at all, that those external, extrinsic things, they really, they aren't, you know, they're not what you're there for.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I think generally for a lot of people, it takes some, you know, time to pass before you can have that kind of objective perspective on it. Yeah. But to be able to kind of have that awareness in the moment when it's so supercharged. Yeah. And I think you even said to Jack, you know, shortly after or went in the midst of it all happening, like, it's, you know, I'm in it for the journey, man.

Like, I'm here for the whole thing. Yeah. Yeah. This is not, I wouldn't choose this to happen, but, know i wouldn't have it i wouldn't i wouldn't change my life either like i'm in it for the whole experience i'm here for the experience of what's happening as opposed to like how many medals did you win right and that's a huge and that that's one of the things that helped me in my retirement right and it's like but i think uh and that's it i think but i think that that is going to be the only sustainable way you're going to keep going in something like that so you're

into something like you're in a sport or something like that where it is very consuming if you're going to do it right it's going to take up all of your time and all of your faculties. And, and so you're going to want to do it right. In a sense, you're going to want to engage yourself in the day to day, in the sense where you, you want to make sure you're, you're, you're not, you're, you're taking your own journey and your own path. You're going by feel, in essence. To ask my 10-year-old self if I would have ever, if I thought I would, or to show my 10-year-old self, I think, what I would have done in the next 15 years,

my 10-year-old self would have just been like, what? That's ridiculous, you know? But I think that the irony of that is that it was never really what I was going for. It was, I think it's that day-to-day stuff that you realize adds up, and it's that love of the process or the willingness to immerse yourself and to learn more about what you're doing. Basically, you have a love affair with that task. And you find yourself in it. It's meditation.

And that's what water, ever since I was a kid, was for me. and that's what water, ever since I was a kid, was for me. And for me, it was always a matter of trying to see how deep my relationship could be with the water. And it just so happened that I went to a pool, and I was staring at a black line, right? But it was like, it could have gone in a few different ways, for sure, but for me, it was always something that it was like, it could have gone in a few different ways for sure. But it, but it, for me, it was always something that it was, it was, it, and it has to be, I think something of a much bigger picture, something much more broad and, and almost intangible.

And, uh, but something that is really deeply felt and something that maybe you only really develop over a certain amount of time when you actually have a certain amount of experience to know that you're falling in love with something. And, uh, and so I, and so things like that just kind of come around and they just go whack and you just go, right. Like very good to know. I still, but I'm still in love with the water. I, you know, but it's like, if it's like, yeah, I didn't matter if a billion people were watching on television, like they,

you know, like the Olympics and 10,000 people in the stands and all the interviews or whatever it might be, all that stuff is just, it's, it's superfluous and it's, uh, because no one can take that relationship away from you. Yeah. and I think that where the problem comes in is I think people relinquish that at some point along the way, and it's hard not to. And so then you have those that maybe do put so much on it that they get so angry they throw chairs in the water, or they break down.

Or they burn out. Or they burn out. And that's something I want to get into in a minute, but I love this idea of the love affair with water. You know, like that's just a, it's a beautiful concept. You know, where do you, where did that start? Like, you know, where do you think that comes from? And what is that about?

Like, what is it about the water that you have this relationship with? Well, and it was interesting. Because I listened to your interview with Conrad Anker, right? And so, like, I can resonate with, it's like there are certain things that just stick out with certain people. And I can listen to certain things and just, the way he says it or something, the way he says it, I just go, he found it, right? And you have other people that they just, they align, They've fallen into it. They've basically understood they're not in control. They've relinquished their control over it.

They're learning how to live within the environment, in a sense. For me, it was always an understanding that, not always, but it was maybe a learned one. I learned it from when I was very young that the ocean whenever i stepped would step into it i really had to make sure that i was using all my faculties or else i was going to be humbled right and it was and so i i had to be aware and i had the wedge in newge in Newport or something? Yeah, right? It's like, gosh. And that's, I mean, to say the least, that's even now. As a 32-year-old, I look at the break like that, and I just go, yeah, don't touch unless you have all your wits about you.

And so from a very young age, I was able to kind of find myself within it. And I think it was an understanding that it was indiscriminate. I could look at something like the water or I could go into it and it had its own moods. It was some days it was angry and upset. Some days it was in a good mood, but I had no control over that. And some days, um, I was cockier than maybe I should have been, so I pushed myself harder, and it taught me a lesson. You're learning humility, basically. Through nature.

And that it's basically me stepping back and going, I have to learn how to live and work within its rules. You're not going to fight the ocean. You have to learn to go with the flow of where the ocean is moving you and, and develop a level of comfort with that, which is, you know, beautifully analogous to how to navigate life. I think in certain ways, I think it's it. And I think that, um, and so I think when you bring someone who comes from the mountains, someone like Conrad Anker, someone who has an affinity towards something like the ocean or whatever it might be, so many facets to it.

I think if you're going to do well, if you're going to immerse yourself in something, you're not going to be, hopefully, and it does happen, but you're not going to be very good. You can be good, you can get there, and you can get to does happen, but you're not going to be very good. You can be good. You can get there and you can get to the top of what you're doing, but it doesn't necessarily mean you're going to stay there and sustain it. And there are, I think, yeah, I mean, it's gotten to the point where, like,

I'll look at, I don't watch many sports, but I do appreciate certain athletes. And I would just look at them and I'd go, you know, I can tell they're doing it for the right reasons. They've overcome those hurdles and those humps. Right. Who would be, like, a good example of that? I have Federer, I think, for me as one i i think um you know he's he's i i mean i every time i met him or sat down and talked with him or whatever um and just the certain way he even presents himself there's i i uh i seen him

an understanding of why he's doing what he's doing, and it's not driven by some kind of, you know, not to the same degree of ego or some kind of, you know, something that's driving him, not necessarily something that's within himself. Yeah, I feel, in other words, like, kind of what you're saying is, like, the ego flame burns bright and fast. Right. It's like tissue paper in the flame.

Like you could you can excel and perhaps even become the best in the world at something driven from that, you know, impulse. Right. But you're going to flame out at some point. And unless you can latch on to something outside of yourself that is perhaps more important, that can give you like a sustained energy to keep you in the game and allow you to kind of go with the ebb and the flow and you know hand in hand with that like kind of humility that that is ultimately in the long run like a better success equation yeah i think uh no i mean you know you see it's interesting to see someone who's gotten to the top and they realized they missed what it was all about to some degree and they realized that that particular

reward or whatever it might have been a gold medal or whatever didn't satisfy with maybe what they thought it would um well because they think that's going to solve their problem it's the same thing like when i get this much money or i get this car, like then I'll be okay. Like then I can feel good. And then you get there and it's like, you're still you dude. Yeah. And that's just it. And I think, and, but I think that, and I, and, and to know, well, but I think that that's,

that's a really important thing to keep in check just cause you've won a gold medal doesn't mean you're a good person necessarily. And it's easy to put anybody on a pedestal and um and i i think so much more important is how you did it and uh you know are you are do people are people still coming up and shaking your hand after you've won, you know, can you still, you know, in other words, like, did you maintain a certain amount of dignity and grace and integrity along the way? Did you do it right? And, um, and I think that is, that's another, I think that is the ultimate goal. I think when you're, when you're striving to do well in something,

you're striving to really be in the moment as much as possible. You know? So, yeah, I, I think even going back to that Conrad anchor interview, hearing him talk about like competitive sports, it's interesting.

Cause I find myself not being very competitive anymore. It's a very different, you're, you're, you're much more like Conrad anchor than you are like the typical swimmer. Like, you know what I mean? Like you're, you're kind of like on your own solo trip, you know what I mean? And you're driven by whatever, you know, whatever kind of spiritual force is moving you out there. But that was always the perspective that I had observing you. I'm like, this cat's like a little bit, you know, he's a little left of center from the rest of these guys.

Like, he must be, you know, he must have some kind of internal drive to get to this place. But there's something else going on here. Like, there's like, that's why I said like the soul surfer kind of thing. Like, there's this kind of spirit quest happening or something, you know. Yeah, it was. That you could see in your eye. And that's not in, you know, the technique see in your eye and and and that that's not in you know you know the technique of your backstroke that's in you know you when you you know shake the hand of the

competitor in the lane next to you or how you pull yourself out of the pool how you walk down the deck and how you you know acquit yourself and when NBC does stick the camera in your face and when what actually comes out of your mouth right and it And it, yeah, it's just, it is keeping all in perspective and it is trying to define success in, you know, in your own little way, if you want to define it at all. And cause you're not like, I don't see you sitting around watching football on Sunday. Like you're out surfing, you know what I mean? Or you're doing something else you know what i mean like sure no i mean you're right and i i uh yeah and i i i've developed my own certain kind of um but it aligns exactly with that i've developed my my very a certain kind of sensibility towards um what's going to instill and create a certain kind of sustainability where you do achieve something and immerse yourself in something, find,

find yourself in something. Um, and I, I, I don't see necessarily a lot of the ways it's, it's glorified as the way that actually, um, promotes it. You know, I don't, I mean, like say football, sorry, like I'm vague, but it's like when you're watching, well, it's easy to get lost in the hoopla when you're watching something like television. You know, something like, well, or with a lot of the things that, you know, it's, you know, when you're watching professional sports with the things that, you know, outside of what they're doing, they're getting compensated very well. Um, not to say, no, of course, you know, it's fine to get compensated, but to where the emphasis, um, of whatever it might be of,

of the sport or of, you know, yeah, of the sport in general, um, actually is it's, it's, uh, well, I mean, you're keeping it in perspective. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I think in that world, you know, it's entertainment, right? So, you know, in addition to like these athletes being highly compensated, I would imagine there's some pressure to be showmen and to do the thing that's going to actually, you know, make the soundbite. Right. You know what I mean? It's a, it's a different, it's a different environment. A lot of that is like sort of, uh, celebrated. Right. And, you know, make the soundbite. Right. You know what I mean? It's a, it's a different, it's a different environment. A lot of that is like sort of, uh, celebrated. Right. And,

and there, there is a certain, you know, maybe lack of humility, like in, in some of that. Um, but yeah, I mean, in, in, in terms of like sustainability and, you know, kind of building, you know, building a legacy out of your career. I mean, when we look back on, on your career, I mean, you certainly did that. It's like three Olympiads, you know, 2000. So you get your, I have my notes, so I don't get it wrong, but like silver in the 200 back in 2000. And that was like, you know, how old were you in 2000? 17. 17. It's like, you must've been one of the youngest guys on the team. I was, I was, yeah. Just older than Phelps. Right. Yeah. Rightps right yeah right right crazy yeah i was a young kid uh and then you go back in 2004 you get gold gold and 100 back and ultimately you did end up with

the gold medal in the 200 back we didn't finish that story but essentially the disqualification was overturned also i mean yeah it's funny but like i yeah and i you know it's almost irrelevant and so i mean when i think about that it's because it's like but yeah i mean i i guess to finish the story right it's like i got it back and i remember standing up on the podium and i remember looking down at the medal and just realizing it was going to mean something much different to me that it would have meant 45 minutes earlier and and how powerful that was and it took even it kept evolving the the kind of understanding of what it did mean but um but it it was one of those moments that i think i grew ultimately just so incredibly thankful for for those for those reasons yeah and then you you kept going

i mean you went back to the olympics in 2008 your third olympics yeah gold in the hunter back gold in the four by 100 medley relay, and silver in the 200 back. You got beat by Lochte there. Yeah. You know, to close out your Olympic career. And then in 2009, over the course of two meets, you set the world record in the hunter back and the 200 back. Yeah. And those records still stand. Yeah. That's insane. Yeah. records still stand yeah that's insane yeah that was a good year it's been six years those two world records have been on the books and in the in the history of swimming like that's a generation like that's a crazy long period of time for swimming world records to stick around i i had a really good year and it was coupled up with those suits that were around. And those did make a bit of a difference.

And I didn't wear, I wore the legs. Did you wear the full leg all the way to the ankle? All the way to the ankle. Yeah. And there was, I mean, if there was a difference, of course. And so that coupled with how good I actually did feel that summer was kind of like this, you know, because I felt amazing that summer. It was kind of what I was waiting for for five or six years, and it finally came around. Right.

Are you ever like, I wish that had been an Olympic year? I know. It's like, yeah. And one of the things you learn pretty quick is you oh you can't time that stuff if you if you if someone if a swimmer has one or two of swims like it's just where you feel that good in a career it's like it feels good I feel like that almost sometimes can uh help um kind of make it put it all together and all worth it. But you can't, it's unfortunate that you can't plan when those are going to be. It's just tapering or like resting for a swim meet,

which has so much to do with it. It's such an art, and it's variable and different every year. Your body, the way the body feels, it's it's it's incredible at that level one day you'll wake up and feel that crap and next day you feel like you could take the world on as much as a science as it is it's still like a very imprecise art i it's at some point it becomes an art and at some point it becomes a waiting game and a game of patience understanding that at some point if you stick around long enough, it will come around. And it's a tough thing.

I mean, for people that are listening that, again, aren't that familiar with the sport, I mean, you essentially train for six or eight months, and you're hanging your hat literally on one meet, and perhaps that's a qualifying meet, and then the meet that follows. And you just kill yourself during that six or eight months yeah and then you do what's called a taper where you back off and you allow your body to repair itself and there's a whole like sort of protocol that goes around trying to figure that whole thing out and the idea is that you literally to the day you know you will show up and be at your you know razor's edge for that day and sometimes you hit it

and it's like magic you feel like incredible and then other days you do everything right and you show up and it's it's not happening and there's nothing you can do about it and my coach said it well one of my coaches just like you train to do well on your worst day because you just you can't prepare you can't predict what you're going to feel like on that one particular day but I think that was a part of what I ended up trying to perpetuate too was just to do put in the work so that even on my worst day I could I could do well and um and because just those things are just out of your control and so I had a couple of of swims that summer that just happened to be on some of my best days. Everything lined up.

And, you know, that was more or less when it came around to me wondering. It was after 2008 I started, you know, wondering how much longer I was going to stick around the sport quietly. And after 2009 I knew it was actually coming to a head and then next year was didn't that two that that 2009 uh season didn't make you think like oh maybe I can hang around and maybe I still got another olympics in me so actually that's that's probably pretty appropriate you bring that up because it's like you. So after 2008, I asked myself, could I go another four years? And it just didn't seem as easy of an answer as it did after 2004.

But I realized there was a meet in two years after 2008 or after 2009 in Irvine um which is where i grew up it was an international meet our u.s is international meet where we host the pan pacific games all the pacific rim countries come to congregate somewhere in the pacific rim and um and it happened to be in the pool that i grew up in for crying out loud strangely enough and so i looked at that and I just went I was like well how like nothing would be more meaningful than that and and uh and so you know the Olympics it started it became again like I guess it was just what what was important to me started to shift and change and uh and it just the timing was just right so i i swam for another year and told my parents that it was a possibility i told my family that was a possibility that was my last year told my coach it was a possibility once and didn't bring it up

again for another year um i think he he kind of probably understood that it was coming around. Yeah. And because I think I started asking that question, you know, again, what are you swimming for to some degree? But it was, you know, one more Olympics. It wouldn't have really given it wouldn't have given me anything or satisfied anything for me. Um, other than some kind of like, well, I mean, how many swimmers have competed in four Olympiads? Yeah. And I just, I just didn't, it didn't register. Didn't care.

didn't care One of the more interesting things too is throughout my career after having a good swim or whatever it was like you say somebody in particular like a reporter or journalist and ask a question like hey did you know that if you went to one more

Olympic Games you'd be the first person to win three gold medals in consecutive events? And I looked at him, and I was like, who made that up? It's always like the reporter or the statistician that's more up on that kind of stuff than the actual athlete. And so, yeah, if you're not careful, you really get caught up in that stuff. Well, that's appealing to the ego, man. It is. It's the ego man it is maybe i could do that and maybe that could be the thing that i'll be known for and i started realizing and i and i again it was like going back to my 10 year old self i already felt i mean i'd been at three olympic games i had a career that i was just able to look back on and just say i was so thankful for and uh and and i had such an amazing experience

an amazing time and around that time i could tell that my interests were starting to i might i was curious about things that i knew that if i was going to satiate it was going to take away from my time within the sport. I was 27 years old, and I was starting just to kind of get to the point that I realized I was ready to mature in different ways. And so... When it's time, it's time, man. When it's time, it's time.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And it felt very gradual and slow. There's that inner voice that comes around. And it's just so good to listen to it when something like that happens. And I was always growing up, too, and just being like a little kid and looking at those who are older in the sport. And it's one of those things you look at and you go, you kind of tell you're like, I wonder if they know when to put it out, you know,

because it's a hard thing, and you wonder if you'll ever know when it happens. And so I was always trying to be very aware or be open to that voice when it started to kind of arise. Well, I think you did it, man. I think you figured it out. You know, it's not like there's any big stone that started to kind of arise. Well, I think you did it, man. I think you figured it out. It's not like there's any big stone that needed to be turned over. No, no, it was a very gradual process. You were there, man. You were there for all of it.

Yeah, totally. And what's cool, too, is that looking back on it, what you typically see is a great athlete will kind of, over the course of a couple years, kind of ascend to their peak and then it's about like trying to kind of hold on to that and in swimming you'll see people they're just dancing around their best time they're either kind of like right around it or just shy of it and then it's kind of holding on to it and then there's that day comes where you're like yeah i can't quite do it anymore yeah but for you it was pretty different like you continue to get faster you know and so. It goes back to this theme of sustainability.

Your approach to the sport, it's like what you were doing in 2004, 2006, even in 2008. It's like, dude, can this guy go any faster? I would have thought, well, this is going to level off. You know what I mean? Not to say that at every meet you always did your your best time because that's certainly not the case. But, you know, at opportune moments, like you continue to swim faster and faster and faster all the way through 2009. Like, you know, that's, you know, other than like kind of what we talked about with respect to

your kind of long term, you know, sustainable approach to, you know, engendering this love affair with water that kind of kept you passionate about the sport. I mean, sustainable approach to, you know, engendering this love affair with water that kind of kept you passionate about the sport? I mean, how did you, you know, what do you attribute that to? Like, how did you avoid burnout? And how did you maintain that kind of passion for what you were doing that would be necessary to continue to get faster? So I think a couple of things. There were a couple of breaks that I had throughout my career that were very important. I took one after 2004. I was about five, six months.

And a big one after 2008, about six to eight months. I was six months or so. You took six months off after 2008, and then you went back a year later and broke two world records that still stand. So there's something that people need to understand about the sport of swimming, right? Because in swimming, you take two weeks off, man, and your career is over. And I think that that's it. I think that that is also where the sport is a bit, you know, I mean, it's understandable. It's a very, like, you work hard in the sport, right?

You're really, you're digging yourself in, you're, you're trying to work out as hard as you can. And, and, you know, the coach might say, Hey, the guys in Japan, I've already had their morning workout, you know, and like, and you're just little things like that, you know? And, and, um, but at some point it's, you know, there, there came a realization where no matter how much I loved something, I was going to have to take a step back from it occasionally. And, um, if not to give my body a break, but also to give my mind a break. that that day-to-day grind and if you're if you're not careful i think it's easy to get lost in it you can start kind of conceding certain very um important uh you know values or or ideals that you have and you concede those to those that might tell you they know what they're that they know what they're doing um or you know it's just you you might

you know you just you're you're put your head you're putting your head down in essence you're just doing the work and it's good to kind of take a step back and look at it objectively every once in a while and so um i took a big break in 2004 when i came back in 2005, one of the best years of my career, the body, my body. Um, and also we, we overwork ourselves like crazy in the sport too much. I get to a point where it's, it's like a pandemic, right. And, um, over trading is insane and swimming. It's a big deal. And, you know, but the sport still has, has yet to kind of catch up to that. And there, there are those that'll speak out against it, you know, like guys like Gary Hill Jr. and, you know, Biondi.

And, like, throughout the years you'll have those that are very vocal. Right. But they are the ones who often – Always the sprinters. And, of course, they're guys I used to make fun of when I was a kid, right? And then you have the – but they've had a tendency to be kind of considered the outliers. Yeah. John Moffitt was like that. Yeah. Yeah to be considered the outliers. Yeah.

John Moffat was like that. Yeah. Yeah, back in the 80s. He was very vocal about that, and he would put his foot down about what he would and wouldn't do. And I just thought he was insane. Or I just thought, well, he's just freakishly gifted, and he can do that, but for the rest of us.

I think that you can get caught up in that aspect of it, but you can kind of brush it off as somebody getting away with it just on sheer talent. But from my own personal experience, having gone through it actually multiple times, I understand that everyone would benefit from it. And a lot of that came from it. You're letting the body heal. The body, for the first time, is actually allowing it to rest and not two weeks is not enough, right? It's in a month is not enough. If you've been training like that, it's months. And I remember when I actually moved on from the sport of swimming, I think it took me years to like really feel like

I was like, wow, my body is still going through these interesting recovery periods. And, you know, it's sitting back and you're letting yourself rest. You take a step back. You're able to look at the sport in a different way to the point where I knew I was going to come back. And when I eventually did come back, I came back so mentally ready and prepared that I realized most everyone else was burning out. It might have been happening very slowly, and it's a very slow process, and you might just be putting your head down and going through it, but basically what it came down to was I was coming back when I was ready, and so it took sometimes a half a year, but

I was going back with such a fresh state of mind. And my body was so fresh that I was actually able to, as long as I didn't overtrain to begin with, kind of transcend what I, where I was before. I wasn't going to get so out of shape, but I wasn't going to get back into shape. And the body is an amazing memory for that stuff. and the body has an amazing memory for that stuff. And so I was able to kind of push through these ceilings that I wasn't able to before just because I was so broken down. And we all used to think that we're so tapered or ready, but no one knows what taper is because everyone's base level

beating down is so low. Yeah, that's super interesting. It's almost like you just had to stop everything and take a break and build a new foundation from the beginning, like literally point A in order to then exceed that threshold.

You think, well, if I want to exceed that threshold, I can't take a break. But actually, the success equation is to take the break, and then you can have that quantum improvement and the hard part is you're being told not to right and you know everyone's telling you not to it's it's the very uh un-american kind of way you know it's you it's it's and it's good to work hard but it's also good to balance it out with some kind of it's good to step away in order

to be able to reflect and so you can kind of see it from all angles, and then you can know which way to attack it when you get back into it. I feel like we got a glimpse of that a little bit this past summer with what Michael did at Nationals, Michael Phelps. So, yeah, for people that are listening, you know, he's in the midst of yet another comeback. And, you know, a lot of people kind of looking at it with an askance I but like you know I what I saw was somebody more focused than I've seen in a long time who looked fitter than he's looked in a long time and put in

some insane performances he looked great amazing yeah I mean it looked amazing and the truth is he's emotionally much a much better, healthier place than he's been in for so long. And I think that does go back to, I think people get to the point where they've never taken a break, so they don't know the difference between taking time off and retirement sometimes. And so it's pretty easy to couple those two up. Right. Is it a retirement or is it just a break? And so I think that's why, I mean, I honestly think that's what comebacks are. It's just, it's, it's, it's the person's ignorance on what's actually needed.

It's not that they wanted to move on and retire. They just needed a breather. They just needed to take a step away for a second. And they just didn't know that until, until, you know, and so when I was, so finally when I was done, I was like, I know the difference. Right. But cause you had taken these breaks. I had I was like, I know the difference, right? Because you had taken these breaks. I had those feelings. And nobody else was really doing that when you were doing that, were they?

No, I was the one who was. You were like the crazy running guy. Yeah, I put on like 20 pounds. What were you doing, like going on a spirit quest out to Joshua Tree or something? I went on a few spirit quests, I'm sure. No, people were wondering where the heck i was i know it's like i mean yeah i was on one of those i you know went on a long trip to costa rica and i ended up buying a piece of land down there right so it's like you know i think that it it is it's it's a matter of just and plus when you when you when

you move away from something where you've been and so-consuming, that break is just so, it is. You take it back, you step back and take a breather, and you've never been so productive. I think the idea is that you're not being productive if you're not doing the work. Not only that, you're falling behind. Right, you're falling behind. And I came to learn that actually it was the complete opposite. That's really powerful.

It was one of the most powerful things I learned within what I was doing. The only way to really sustain and be sustainable within this is if you were going to treat it as though you were going to be around it for a long time. And so why not take a break here and there? You can always take your time trying to get back into it and, um, and be patient. It's like anything. It's just be patient. You're looking at, you know, cause I always knew I was going to be in this for a long time. And so when you watch, when I watch someone like Michael now, I see that and I just go, I can look at his face and I just go, yeah, he's in a good, he's in a good place. Yeah. He's dialed in right now. He was on, he was,

uh, had a world record pace at the one 50 and the 200 yeah and i i'm i'm i'm thankful i think staying back and going to u.s nationals is probably one of the best things i i see that i just think like what a what a blessing that was just so it was uh just it was just enough of a of a big meat feel and atmosphere to get him up and going. But not so much of the hoopla and everything else going around the big thing so he could just really hone in on himself. Right, and just enough smack talk too. Was it Cielo? Who was the other guy that got on the Hunter Fly at World Championships?

Yeah, that's always interesting. Has that guy learned yet? No, no. That's the Hunter Fly at World Championships? Oh, yeah. That's always interesting. Hasn't that guy learned yet? No, no. That's the worst thing you can do? I almost wonder. I want to give him the benefit of the doubt that he's smart enough to know that if he does that, he's building up a good story, right? So it's like— Well, he knows it'll make the press, right?

I hope so. But the flip side of that is that Michael's going to hear about it. Right. And Michael's not fazed by that. But it fuels him, does it not? It'll fuel him, but it's hard to have someone like him react in a way where he doesn't look. The truth is, if Michael's on his game, no one's going to beat him.

And it's hard for, I mean, it's hard to sit here across from somebody you're swimming against and to tell them that. But at least from what I've seen and from what I've witnessed and from being around the career and all that stuff, I see it. If Michael has done his work and is on and is physically he's fine he's ready but if mentally and emotionally he's actually present like he's he's the he is the better swimmer and so as far as i'm concerned all he has to i mean what he has to do all he has to do is just really he just got to put the time in for the next little bit,

which is what he's doing. I think it's easy to kind of assume that it's not. He took a break after nationals. You're like, there's less than a year to the Olympics, so he's taking a break. And that's fine because you can get into shape real quick, and he's not doing nearly as many events as he used to do. quick and he's not doing nearly as many events as he used to do and and um and he you know like like that muscle memory all that doesn't it doesn't just go away no it's uh if anything what's nice about taking those breaks is that you you don't have the opportunity to go get broken

down which is good you don't want to and that's, most people go into something like the Olympics broken down. They just don't know it. Um, so yeah, you know, it's, it's going to be interesting. Yeah, for sure. And, uh, but I just, um, that was probably the thing I was happiest about this summer was just seeing him kind of on his own and doing his own little thing and doing well and just kind of, you know, relinquishing the, the youthful exuberance to the,

to the younger, you know, the brashness to the, you know, to a different kind of hungrier guy. Yeah. I mean, he,

he has all this experience and now he's more kind of mentally, you know, dialed in than he ever has been. And that's pretty powerful, potent combination. That's hard to beat. Yeah. And he's, you know, he, the, the, and the world hasn't caught up to him that, that much yet. They just haven't. So are you going to go to a Olympic trials or go to Rio? Um, that's a good question. I, uh, you know, I, I'd like to, I went to, I went to London,

I went and watched London. Nothing's lined up though yet. Nothing's lined up. But it is interesting thinking about it if I were to go because I'd want to work and do something like what I would do. And I've kind of tried to stay clear of the commentating and that kind of thing up until now. But in other ways, it's a really is it's a really his seat is firmly placed in that chair yeah and that's not going anywhere let those guys be you know and it and it that's

that's less of how i'd want to experience it anyway i really enjoy like the olympics itself incredible event and and i always enjoy seeing them for sure. I enjoy observing and just sitting back, and being in London was nice just to sit in the stands and observe. Actually, the way I found that it was nice was to write. Writing was like maybe the— Yeah, you were blogging throughout London, weren't you? I did. I blogged a little bit. I think if I were to do it again, that would probably be the way.

I'd probably put more attention towards that this time around. So in your experience of, like, you know, spending many, many years around, you know, the fastest swimmers in the world, you know, the Michael Phelpses, I mean, you've been on relays with these guys. You've been on, you know, national teams with them forever and ever. I mean, when you look at, you know, these high performers, what are, you know, what are some of the characteristics or, you know, the habits or the mindsets that you think distinguish them from the guys that end up at home watching the Olympics on TV? It's an interesting question.

I think it's different. It's often different for a lot of different people. Sometimes it's a tolerance. So you see a guy like, well, it's obviously more complicated than that, but you see a guy like Lochte or a guy like Michael, and what I see in them is a certain acceptance or willingness to really inundate themselves with a lot of work. And their bodies can take it. A lot of it is the physical aspects.

Their bodies can take it. They can recover it is the physical aspect. Like their bodies can take it. They can recover. They're doing a good job of that. Whether that's innate or not, I'm not entirely sure, but some of it is. But oftentimes what I see is it is. It'd be something. but oftentimes what I see is, uh, it is, it'd be something.

So as someone like Ryan, it's right. Ryan, again, I get something more, it's deeper. It's something, some deeper meaning, some more visceral kind of thing that he feels inside that it means that it within swimming means a lot to him or, um, you know, and you can tell that there's, I mean, he takes a lot of grief, but like, I feel like that guy in certain respects has a really kind of healthy grip on swimming because he doesn't seem like he works incredibly hard. That's the part that gets missed in the conversation. Yeah.

But he also, like, I feel like he has a healthy amount of not taking it as seriously as some other people um and in a beautiful way no and I 100% I I honestly think Ryan's one of the smartest guys in the sport yeah in a lot of ways and you know I think that where that comes from is the fact that he he puts his attention towards the things that he knows will actually benefit him. And he doesn't distract himself with stuff that's just going to take him off, you know, off course or whatever. He's done a really good job of just, you know, even if he does like a TV show or whatever it might be,

it's still just like, yeah if he does like a TV show or whatever it might be, it's still just like, yeah, but it's a TV show. He's like, this is what brought me here anyway, the sport. So, um, so watching him, I I've, I've actually grown to admire that side of, of Ryan quite a bit, um, of, of someone like Mike, it's, uh, I think it was, he probably had that. And then I think even, you know, to a degree, he would admit that he probably kind of got a little, you know, just a little taken by a lot of the stuff that was going on or a little distracted or just, you know, it wasn't in the right headspace for a minute. Well, he seems like a much more serious guy than Ryan. Right. And, and now after that little break again, it's just like, Oh yeah, this is what's important. And it's just like, you know, it's, it's kind of putting it back in, into order. And, um, but I think at that level, I think it is to some degree, if you're going to do well and do well consistently. I think it's just, you know, the physical part.

A lot of people are very physically prepared and ready. It's a certain kind of just understanding and acceptance of moments that, you know, you can treat it as you can put something like the Olympics on a pedestal or you can treat it like another meat. And, uh, and so it's, it's interesting to see how people kind of, uh, compartmentalize certain aspects of what they're doing. And, you know, some people can just, um, really keep the focus and that, focus and that perspective, you know, together. Yeah, I mean, the preparation for getting ready for the Olympic Games and swimming is about the least sexy thing you can imagine. You know, it's like so unglamorous. It's like alarm clocks going off at ungodly hours.

And just, you know, every day is groundhog day. Yeah. It's back at the pool at the same pool with the same people staring at the same black line again and again and again. Yeah. And I, and I don't miss that. And I, and I, and I, you know, and I, and it's just like, even now, and it's, you know, cause I'm so so i'm so thankful that of course i would did that but it's like but you know i don't smell like i mean it's just like not to smell like chlorine it's just nice and it's little things and just and uh because there is there there is an element

of of extremism to that right it's like it's very extreme and if you're going to continue doing something like that um it's going to affect you in some way or another like over time um your body is going to give out your you know your mind is is going to get tired of it your um it's it's not completely sustainable in that sense it's not something you're going to be able to do for your whole life like like like you're you know you're you're you're a musician i don't know i would sometimes equate it to like being like a musician or an artist or or something along those lines and i envy them and to some degree because their whole life because they're developing an art that they that is that is something they can carry with them and I think at some point there had to be a realization that I was going to have to pursue something like this very quietly on my own.

And that's just, you know, that's sport. It's just your body is a finite lifespan. sport it's just your body is a finite lifespan and and uh and if you as long as you come i mean the one of the goals and aims is to come out of it healthy enough to be able to still use your body in a good way so it just doesn't completely break you you know i mean i am such an active guy i couldn't imagine you know not being able to use certain parts of my body. So I'm glad I'm healthy in that way. Well, I think a lot of swimmers, you know, they get out of it and they're like, they don't want to see a pool, you know, for a really long time.

Like, I'm done. I'm not going anywhere near a pool. But that was not your experience. And I think, again, it goes back to this idea of sustainability and this love affair that you have with the water that you never lost. Like, even when you were done, it was like you probably went to the ocean the next day. Yeah. Right?

I mean, and that's the state. And I think that bringing back to your point about what you would do with the sport is to kind of try to instill that basic premise, right? If you're leaving the sport and you don't want to touch it for 10 years, if you're leaving something like this, whatever it is you're immersing yourself in so much, you don't want to touch it for 10 years or a long time, something's broken. And if that's a common theme, then you need to address it. And you're addressing a culture, right?

you're addressing a culture, right? It's something different than just showing up and, you know, giving like a stroke lesson or something like that. That kind of thing seems somewhat superficial and meaningless compared to the larger deal. So it's been four years since you stepped out. I mean, so you have a little bit of perspective, maybe a little bit more objectivity on your career than maybe you had.

I mean, if you had to like, you know, identify one or two things that you feel like you've taken from the sport that kind of inform your daily life now, like some of the lessons that you were able to like extract from this experience that kind of are part of your character? Yeah, I think one is kind of an understanding of the process. And like you were saying, like how that equates towards just like whatever metaphor that might be for life. like whatever metaphor that might be for life and um and and the the wonder of finding yourself within something that you dive in or immerse yourself in i think is is very powerful um

and i think what did you know like when by immerse like i love that because i totally believe in that like i think there's something beautiful about committing yourself completely to something that you're passionate about and using that as a, as a, as like a leverage, you know, to like really figure out who you are. Like, so, you know, so, so what did that tell you about yourself? Um, I think it's still telling me stuff, really. I think it'll probably, I mean, I don't know if it'll ever stop telling me certain things, right? And I think a lot of it is, you know, I can certainly say that one of the most important things that taking myself out of the sport did was open up other facets of me that had to grow and mature that I don't think I necessarily had to when I was swimming, or when I was in the middle of it. And so that was very educational and very powerful.

It's like you have something that you can devote so much of your time in and put yourself in towards, but it, you can, you can, uh, you take yourself out of it. And even if you don't necessarily find yourself defined, defining yourself by it, you, you, uh, you still, you, you know, you don't even realize in certain ways you're relying on it. And so, you know, one of the things I think it gave me to some degree, and I'm still learning to this day, is a certain kind of empathy that I'm not sure that I had to the degree before. is going from the extreme of having that to pulling myself out of it and very consciously understanding that it was going to be an interesting experience to kind of navigate it and to kind of within that almost find a whole lot about yourself

you really didn't even know you were going to. So sport itself, what I learned about myself, I mean, kind of what we were talking about, just that idea of perspective and, you know, really making sure that you're doing things for the right reasons. You're keeping your head on straight in essence. And then on the other side of it, I feel like there's so much work that can be done outside of that, I feel like there's so much work that can be done outside of that, that at least from what I see now, I feel like it's sometimes dismissed or can be overlooked. And so it's, you know, to be able to sit there and you go, okay, what am I without that? And so that process that that process right when you're right your identity is completely reliant upon this idea of who you are you know

where you where you fall in the pecking order of you know swimming right it's like you know and it even gets into the degree of of uh you know you you immerse yourself so much in something and you wonder is that really what you how you want to live the rest of your life know you you immerse yourself so much in something and you wonder is that really what you how you want to live the rest of your life so you're going to go do that again or or are you going to become someone who can become more of like you know like a jack-of-all-trades you displace yourself so a couple of different um avenues and so experimenting with with a different kind of theory on on on that aspect of life or whatever is also was also very powerful because you know it's it's simply just an experiment, I guess. And, you know, you're finding yourself within that as well.

So I think that time that it takes to be able to really, I don't know, kind of immerse yourself within something very foreign and uncomfortable and a vulnerability that arises from a lot of those experiences and feelings, and uncomfortable and a vulnerability that arises from a lot of those experiences and feelings. I think it's incredibly critical and necessary when it's time. It's almost, well, it's very existential, right? You're asking kind of, like you said, like, what is this? Who are you? In a nutshell, right?

And I think that that was probably, in so many ways, one of the more important, just necessary things to go through when I was done. And I'm so thankful that I was able to actually experience and have the time to experience that, be given the time to experience that. What do you think people misunderstand about you? Or if they mischaracterize you or aren't get what you're coming from, like, what, what does that, you know, do you get any of that? Like,

yeah, sure. Like you meet me, would you, I think we're on the same. I mean, yeah. Um, I mean, I, uh, you know, I, I started to be called eccentric like a year or two ago. Only a year or two ago? Yeah. So you're ahead of me. And I looked at him and I thought, I was like, that's such an interesting, because I don't wear like purple velvet. Right. And I'm not that kind of thing, but I probably should.

But, you know, I think. We might have some here if you want some. And I want to. But I... But I... And I wasn't even sure how to really take that. And I'm not even sure if that's entirely necessarily true. But I think I'm just a really very introspective person.

And I think, to some degree, almost to um an extreme another extreme kind of level or case when I when I decide to really go into something like I'm going to I'm really going to figure it out and so um a lot of what maybe even the last like three or four years, has been kind of a really big understanding. It's getting into that understanding of certain aspects or things, or just growth in general. Those things aren't necessarily, you don't see those, you don't get into so, but, you know, I think as far as misunderstood, I don't know, misunderstood, I think that I'm very quiet.

Yeah. I mean, misunderstood kind of has a pejorative inflection to it. I don't mean that, but, like, what is it, like, that you think people don't really know about you that you know or if there's something you want to clarify or oh sure um no i i think uh that i think that this that even going back to the idea of that transition um that is to just to really dive into it and to embrace it and to take your time with something like that. That's absolutely okay to feel scared and frightened and vulnerable and insecure and all of those things, right?

And so... How could you not? How could you not? Yeah. And, and I think that that's, that's, that, that's a good thing to kind of, that would be a good thing to kind of infuse into say the sport, if you wanted to do that, but an about, I guess it's about myself. It's really, it's, uh, that all, yeah, I'm much, you know, I honestly, I think it, people that know me and know me well, I know they know me well, so I don't have to explain it to them, but, um, they know that I'm just a thoughtful enough guy, I guess. And, uh, and you know, interviews like this, you're not going to be doing on NBC, right?

NBC is, you know, how'd you feel? I felt good. I'm looking forward to final. It's like, it's a canned thing. You know what I mean? Like, that's it. Like, yeah. You know, Aaron wants to come in and start talking about Jack Kerouac. Right. Right. And, and to be honest, and it's like, you know, and it's like, uh, and I, and I even love talking about, you know, the sport and that kind of thing, but even in another part of it too, it's, it's, uh, how do you feel about like where the sport is right now and where it's going? I, I don't know that it is. I mean, that's, I think even taking a bit of time away from it, I don't know that it is.

I think even taking a bit of time away from it, when I go back to it, it seems the same. I mean, I see little things, little differences here and there. But I go back, I realize how much I think, how different I feel and how much the sport is quite similar. Times keep getting faster, though. I mean, there was that period when, you know, post-tech suit, everyone thought, like, those world records are never going to get broken, we're never going to catch up. And basically, they've all been broken except for your records.

Right. You know, times keep getting faster. I mean, you know, when I look at it, you know, and compare it to my era, which was the late 1980s, it doesn't look anything the same. Like, I can't even comprehend the times. Right. And I'm like, how did, like, we were training as hard as we possibly could, and I thought that I was around the most talented guys in the world. Like, how are these guys so much faster? Right. I think that's always been interesting to me.

much faster right i think uh that's always been interesting to me i think uh i think that just comes with the fact that it's i think it's like a new generation's definition of fast has is evolved because um what their baseline is is just simply higher than what the original generation yeah there's a mental aspect to it i feel like training techniques have advanced quite a bit they've learned a lot more i mean i when i when i was in it it was just the beginning of people experimenting with the underwater dolphin kick you know it's like the dave burkoff era and all of that and what's interesting about you is you used it but it was not like your it wasn't like that was your main thing like you're more of like a pure backstroker yeah well not by choice

i definitely tried um but i i definitely feel like uh the sport progressing in the sense of just you have those outliers you have someone like kaylee ducky right he's just pushing it to a very advanced extreme level and you have um and. And they push those limits and those boundaries, and they just have that fresh kind of energy or vibrancy that is just infusing it with something very different. You can't go zero, right? Your times can't go zero. So there has to be a point when it stops.

And that kind of mental exercise is fun to play once in a while. You know, how fast is someone going to go? But we haven't reached that point yet. People are still getting better. You keep thinking we're almost there, and then another Olympics rolls around. It makes me wonder when. But it is interesting seeing that happen. Yeah, and in other ways too.

I would say it's probably growing. The professional side of it is also changing quite a bit, the landscape. And, you know, I think companies came in about 10 years ago, and really there was a ton of fervor. A few years ago they started to kind of retract almost a little bit more. And so seeing how companies kind of play around with how they want to really be involved in the sport, that had an impact on my generation because it kept my generation around a long time. And we got to grow within it we got to we were

able to be i mean you were really part of like the first generation of real professionals yeah we i mean we definitely gosh and you know i would definitely say it wouldn't have been possible without those generations that came before it right it was just happened to be it was the that golden hour and it just happened to come around right at that particular time literally the year that i went professional and um and and so it that was really special and it and it harkened back 20 30 years and before that I can even remember talking to a lot of those gentlemen, Matt Biondi, Tom Jager, you know, kind of like Dave Burkoff or whatever. So I'm saying, thank you. You guys fought for this. And so that was something that kept my generation around, for sure. Right. Well, let's shift gears a little bit and talk about some of the environmental work,

environmental work that you're passionate about. I know you've been passionate about ocean conservation for a long time, and it dates way back. So what does that look like right now? What are you involved in? That's a great question too i mean i i think i'm my interest in involving myself in that is keeps evolving too just in the sense of i think we had the kind of this conversation earlier i i uh you know there's i've been involved with certain organizations over the last 10 years,

and I realize that if I'm going to stay involved in some regard, I'm going to have to keep educating myself. There are certain things that I realize that it would be good for me to kind of really dive into. My relationship with the ocean is as i'm on it i get to see it almost all every day and and um but my work is primarily uh being in supporting uh oceana which is a group based in dc um and they're a uh solely an ocean conservancy group and they're they have bases around the world and and they would do a lot of work lobbying up in dc and uh in mine i i'm always going to have some

kind of you know that that's going to be a lifelong kind of uh passion for me staying involved keeping around you know really i don't see many more pressing issues really than than something like what you know the the impact that we're having on the environment and and uh if there's something to really put attention towards um i think feel really do feel like that's that's going to be one of those very important things. Yeah, yeah. Have you seen Cowspiracy yet? I have. Oh, you have?

Yeah. Jack's House. Oh, you watched it. Jack's House. That's right. I'm trying to remember where. Jack, did you watch it? Which is amazing, right?

Yeah, cool. And, yes, I did. I loved it. And, again, makes you understand that you just need to go out and learn more. Yeah, yeah, yeah. There's always more to learn. Yeah, it's really, it's a powerful, impactful movie and certainly plenty in the movie about the impact of animal agriculture on ocean health. Yeah.

And some interesting news, you may not know this, but we just finally were able to announce publicly a couple days ago that it's going to be premiering on Netflix in two weeks, September 15th. Awesome. And Leonardo DiCaprio came on board as an executive producer. So he's lending his name to it. So that's pretty cool. That's very cool.

Congrats. Because that, you know, like now it's like with his name on it, so many people are going to see it. And that was another thing. I love that you had something to do with that that was really neat yeah i mean it's i don't want to overblow it like these guys were almost they were essentially done with the movie i came on board to kind of just help get the word out about it and you know we played a small role in and you know getting them the right sort of people around them so that we

could help the netflix thing go forward so it's not like i didn't like produce the movie or anything like that i don't want to overstate like my involvement but it's been cool to be you know an early supporter of that movie like before anybody had seen it and to see it get to this point now where it's kind of at a tipping point and i think a lot of people are gonna be impacted by it i um i i loved it and i i kind of had a feeling well and that's just it it's i i find myself and i moving more and more towards that and that's even like coming to your house right and then and um it's just that tipping point for me going off in and that it's kind of almost not an if but a when for me along those lines and and uh and so that that is very near and dear to my heart. I mean, I really can't.

I couldn't say enough about it. I need your help, Aaron. Yeah, I couldn't say enough about it. I sometimes am blown away that it even has to really be a contentious issue, but it is. So I just, you know, it's something that I'll, you know, always be involved with to some degree or another, probably massively, actually. Yeah, yeah, I see that happening.

Yeah. And it's, I mean, they go hand in hand. Because I live on the ocean, right? So it's like, you know, you're watching what the weather is doing right now, and the water is like close to 80 degrees. That's crazy warm. Which is insane. And people are catching bluefin tuna and yellowfin tuna right off here,

and they're seeing them out there, and there are all kinds of animals that are migrating up this way. there and they're they're you know they're all kinds of animals that are migrating up this way um but and then but just being right and because the pacific is such a barometer for what's going on in the world anyway and and for the last little bit just to see how what the extremes of what's going on within the ocean and even if it is that's on its own there is on its own natural cycle it's you know it's something that just can't be i don't know you have to look at it and just go let's figure out what why it's doing this what's going on and uh but it is it's it's i'm glad i get to actually sit there and and ask those questions every day yeah well you're lifeguarding now, right? That's it. So you get to stare at it all day.

I guess, yeah. Ponder. Ponder. I'm pondering that, and I'm going to get yelled at by my dermatologist, and then I get to be thankful that I get to actually stare at this beautiful body of water every day. That's cool, man.

Yeah. I think we did it. Awesome. There's a, there's one thing I'd like to end it off with though, which is if there's a athletes out there that are listening, uh, maybe they're struggling with burnout or they're questioning why they're in their sport to begin with, you know, what is, what are some things that maybe you could impart to the athlete out there, amateur athlete, professional athlete, whoever's listening? Sure. Great question. And it's probably, and it is, it's something that should absolutely be addressed.

And I think it's, you know, really take the time to sit back and ask the question of why you're doing what you're doing. Make sure if you're doing it, you're doing it for your own and on your own accord. You know, you don't have to answer to anybody. You're not doing this for, you know, whether it be your parents or your coaches or your sponsors or whatever it might be. This is, you know, this is your journey. Take ownership of it.

And I think the journey kind of begins once you've taken ownership of something like that um and you don't be afraid to tell people to back off in that regard where you know it's like no this is mine like you know i'll keep this and and it's it's okay to to basically say no to you know to you know, I'll keep this. And it's okay to basically say no to, you know, things that might stretch you thin. To your coach. Yeah. Right? So it's like, but at least it's okay to ask questions

and it's okay to be interested and curious and it's okay to try to engage. Not only is it okay, I think you should ask questions. You're the athlete. You're, you should. And, and it's,

uh, that's exactly right. You, you have, you have, it's your time. You're investing in all of this. You,

it's, you should want to engage yourself and educate yourself. It should be something, um, you want to develop. You want to develop more of an interest in a, in a love in. And the only thing,

the only way that you're going to do that is if you take control of it. It can be easier said than done. I think a good way to start is just to ask that simple question of why do you do what you do and be honest with yourself. Just in general, be honest and don't be afraid to be honest with that stuff even if you know which can be hard so i feel like the best coaches also will will uh be open to the questioning you know if like your coach wants to shut you down when you start asking questions it's probably not a good sign right i feel like the best coaches approach their relationships

with athletes more as like a partnership and as it should be like look at the way that you know phelps and bowman interact or look look at how jack you know conducts himself and i mean you know what was your experience you've worked with amazing coaches dave salo eddie reese all these guys like you know what are the what in your opinion are the characteristics of like a great coach that gets the best out of their athletes? They empower the athletes. And I think it's a coach who can take a bit of those questions, or even if it might be criticism, is a coach that, um, is, is worth the salt for sure. And it, and it's,

and absolutely there are those out there and, um, and it's the coach's duty to, um, to be humble enough to admit that they don't know everything they're going to learn from their, their, you know, it's a mutual experience. You're going to learn from each other. there yeah there you know it's a mutual experience you're going to learn from each other it's a mutual journey you're along you know you're on this you're walking hand in hand so to speak i love it man all right any uh predictions for rio too soon to tell yes for sure but um you know i want to i think what you saw this year and, uh, in, uh, world championships or just in general in the world, it's going to be the Katie Ledecky show. I think that's probably what I was getting at. She's just on fire. So, you know, the woman's team is,

is looking very good, which is great. And, and, uh, the men's team will be um you know it'll be strong it'll be good and it's the olympics everyone comes out of the everyone comes out of the woodwork for the olympics it's it brings everybody you know right out of their out of their uh you know into a whole nother atmosphere so to speak so it'll be and of course rio it'll just be a show so it'll be amazing yeah in rio i think some athletes are gonna get in trouble yeah you gotta be careful so that's a dad 100 and what a place to you know enjoy something like the olympic celebration because it is it's a celebration it's a you know it's it's it's a party just as much and you know you're celebrating these um you know something you've you've you know and you have varying ways to deal with that but you people really coming together from all over the world and you're celebrating just the best of the sport in a very,

not on the physical level, but in the way of just what the Olympics should represent, that sense of pure competition, competing for the reasons of helping others get better. It's a beautiful thing. There's nothing else like it, man. It's just the coolest thing ever others get better it's a beautiful thing there's nothing else like it man yeah it's just the coolest thing ever yeah it's a beautiful and when you see everyone walking around everyone's got everyone it's just there's an energy in the air yeah it's i don't know it that's that's a really cool uh i mean what is it like when you

uh you know walk into that stadium at opening ceremonies. Did you go or did you have to make, cause swimming comes right. It starts the next day, right? I did it. I did it, uh, once or twice,

maybe twice actually. And, uh, cause I swim like not the next day, but the day after, and you're on your feet for like eight hours. Right. And,

um, it's a long time. And the only, you get, especially if you're someone like a sprinter, like a track athlete or one of those type of athletes, you're going to want to not be on your feet as much, which just seems kind of silly, and you don't want to really abide by that.

But it's the way it is. But it's just one of those things where you experience it and you, yeah, you see 100,000 people in the stands and it's beautiful, the whole celebration. And, you know, just being a kid and sitting there and having the Olympics be such a memorable thing for me, watching it as a kid because it was such an impactful experience. My first one I remember is 92. My first one I remember is 92. So, you know, actually.

Jeff Rouse. Jeff and Mel Stewart and Nelson Diebel and Summer and Janet. And, you know, I was nine years old at the time. And it just resonated with me. And so I actually, you know, walking through the stadium and the the opening ceremonies it was just like you have a lot of those moments but it was one of those moments where it all hit home and you just have to breathe you know and you just go oh okay this is happening you know you know it's so powerful right it's uh you know you're lifting your head up out of the fog for a second you're going oh my this is amazing so it's one of those very powerful powerful moments for sure so cool man well thanks for talking to me thanks um yeah

i uh this is great to be able to sit down and chat and and be able to meet you finally yeah awesome man feelings mutual uh you're an inspiration it's so cool to uh hear your inside perspective on on uh, uh, not only, you know, your swimming career, but like the principles that guide your life, man, it's really, uh, it's really cool. So I appreciate your candor and openness. Thanks to talk about it. I, uh, yeah, it's, it's, uh, to me, I think it's, uh, they go hand in hand. I do. So I appreciate it. Yeah, that's good to know.

Well, this is the part of the show where I usually go, here's the website that you go to, and here's... Do it. I could go, all right, if you're digging on Aaron, you can follow him on Twitter, at Aaron Pearsall. He has tweeted 96 times since you signed up. When was the last time you sent a tweet out I don't know and uh no but you know what's funny is the other day I I actually sent out I sent out two instagrams I think you did I think it had been two years uh-huh since I had sent out any

instagrams and I um and I sent them out and the response was pretty funny I had friends who were just like hey good to know you're still alive. And you know, from like the Instagram side and it was like, but these pictures were actually, I felt like worth sharing. They were so cool. And, um, but anyway, yeah, I, uh, not much. You can follow and you're at Aaron Pearsall on Instagram, but don't expect, don't expect it. You'll be very, you will not clog your timeline up. It won't be very representative much. You don't even have a website. No. Yeah. No, I know.

Are you on Facebook? No. No. I mean, I, yeah, I, you know, I just living, dude, you're living, you're, you're living your truth. You're living pure. Yeah. I mean, I, it's cool. I mean, gosh, that's, yeah. I mean, I, my, my roommate and I, we, we have dueling typewriters. That's how we get around and literally typewriter. Yeah. It's so much fun. Completely old school. You're living an analog life. Kind of. Yeah. It's kind of in a trip, but, but yeah, it's, it's, if you want to follow me, you follow my mom or my sister.

More of my mom. Or you could just go down to Newport and find you at the beach, right? Yeah, you can get lucky and find me in a tower down there or in the water, probably just as likely. Or look for a yellow dog and he's getting a stick thrown in the water. That'll probably stick out pretty good. We didn't even get into your sister, but your sister was an amazing swimmer as well. She medaled at world championships, right?

She was an incredible national team member and then was a really successful triathlete too. That's it. She's still competing in triathlon? No, but she's an incredible athlete and my best friend. And just such an amazing person. She was one of the fastest milers ever in the middle of her career in the mid-2000s. She's two years younger than me. And then she went into professional triathlons almost right off the bat,

even though she didn't know how to cycle. Had to learn on the fly. but she's just an incredible athlete. And, and, um, but also just, uh, one of those people, incredible mind too. So it's cool having her as a sister. I don't have to pretend to love her. It's easy. She was, uh, she was training with Siri Lindley for a while, wasn't she? That was her coach? Yeah, that's right still is siri still her coach no so hayley's been done with triathlons now for a few years at least yeah three or four i know siri and like i was following her online and so hayley would always

pop up you know because one of her athletes yeah that was a while ago and generally just knows how to train so she could she could fall into a sport like triathlons and just because she just could put her head down she was a miler so she could just she knew how to do that and uh and it always always impressed me that she went from swimming immediately into triathlons and i guess you did too no no no oh okay well you took you've been at 40 okay yeah you you did you yeah you you took the back end but a back route but it was it was watching her and then come back, and she's taken this road of a bit of like a moderate, more moderate kind of side too.

Still active, but just in a different way. And you don't have any desire to be competitive in anything else. That's an interesting question. I don't have a desire to compete competitive but um i think it had something to do with uh something we touched on but again it was something that that conrad angered um had mentioned was just like that element of of uh that the only time i really felt competitive in the last two years was I was on a sailboat a while ago. And I remember looking over at a boat that was right next to us and sailing is such like a cerebral kind of, you know, you have no choice but to be patient. And so I remember staring over at the sailboat next to me and just going like, let's try to get this guy.

Because we were kind of racing. We were racing and and um but that was it just that for some something resonated with me and all in those lines but now where i get my kicks now is is um is is kind of within it is as it probably always has been to some degree is within within nature and within either in the mountains or the ocean and and just kind of uh that that whole process yeah yeah and it's it's more yeah it's a uh the you know the kind of companionship and camaraderie you can find with those you're with in that environment which is so powerful to me so um no that's it's it's nice it's not it's a nice kind of different different take on it yeah do you ever jump in the

pool though and go i'm gonna do a set of you know 100 backs and see what i can hold um no good for you oh gosh i uh i have a pretty good idea i know i could get still go fast because i'm still in somewhat decent shape but i but i um but i just know that i you know that's as i just know it would be you know it would hurt for one bad and i don't know that i i'm sure maybe at some point i'll see probably where i'm at a little gauge yeah so but yeah I could still I could still pull something out I'm sure um I'm still you know I'm still freshen off off of it yeah yeah I only weigh 320 pounds for those of you can't see me on the podcast I'm you look exactly the same as you did when you were sawing maybe a little less you know yeah yeah just a little yeah a little bit different body composition.

But, yeah, I've, yeah, it's still pretty much the same. Still in the water every day, so. Cool, man. Yeah. Well, this was an absolute pleasure, man. Let's do it again. Thanks, Rich. Next time I'll come down to you and we can jump in the ocean.

Right on. Love it. All right, cool. Thank you. Thank you, man. Peace. Plants. Love it.

All right, cool. Thank you. Thank you, man. Peace. Blast. So Aaron is a unique and special cat, I told you. It was an honor to spend some time with him, and I really hope that it gave you a few things to think about,

perhaps broadened your horizons. Don't forget to check out this week's show notes at richroll.com. Lots of articles, background, related podcast episodes, and other materials and resources related to today's show to take your experience beyond the earbuds. And while we're at it, have you subscribed to my newsletter yet? Come on, you guys. No spam, just good stuff. Weekly podcast updates, product offers. And I'm going to start sharing some exclusive content there.

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