The Rich Roll Podcast - Olympian Katie Hoff On Embracing The Suck & Alchemizing Pain Into Gratitude

Episode Date: May 31, 2021

We all create imagined blueprints for how we want our lives to unfold—but what happens when things don’t go according to plan? Today’s guest knows a thing or two about managing pressure, prioritizing intention over expectation, and transforming disappointment into gratitude. Meet Olympic swimmer Katie Hoff. Dubbed, for better or worse, ‘the female Michael Phelps’ Katie is an 8x world champion that made her first Olympic Team at the ripe age of 15, the youngest member of the 2004 USA Swimming Team. She won 5 first place Olympic berths at the 2008 Olympic Trials, took home 3 medals in Beijing, and over the course of her career toppled more than a few American & international records, accruing 8 world championship titles along the way. But Katie’s story isn’t what you think it is. It’s not some totally unrelatable Olympic fairy tale, filled with empty platitudes and cliché mottos. It’s a story about not living up to the expectations the world set for you. What’s most interesting about Katie is that she’s an athlete that should have had a far more decorated career. So what happened? Today we explore her storied career, covering the complicated mental and emotional implications of elite performance, as well as the external forces beyond an athlete’s control. We dissect the vertigo-inducing success Katie experienced at such a young age. The insane pressure she faced that accompanied high highs, the bitter disappointment she experienced by failing to live up to unreal and unfair expectations, and the process of picking up the pieces and moving forward with life in the wake of dreams unrealized. And of course, the valuable and applicable life lessons extrapolated along the way, which she chronicles in her book, Blueprint: An Olympian’s Story of Striving, Adapting, and Embracing The Suck. Katie is an absolute delight and our exchange is littered with gems—big ideas on managing stress, expectations, and knowing when and how to push your limits. FULL BLOG & SHOW NOTES: bit.ly/richroll605 YouTube: bit.ly/katiehoff605 This was a fun one. I learned a ton, and I know you will too. Peace + Plants, Rich

For me, I had flat out failed. Like the articles that were coming out that I shouldn't have read, and I saw just this flurry of just negativity and how I failed and how I fell on my face and just kind of lost it and burst into tears. There was a couple people that I, you know, very much looked up to that were saying really, really hurtful things. It was just moments here and there where I would feel off or I'd have this pit in my stomach or I would do an interview with another athlete and just feel like not good enough. Like, and I would always go by gold medal. Like, I'm like, well, I have a silver, they have a gold.

So, and it didn't even hit me that I felt that way until I watched So, and it didn't even hit me that I felt that way until I watched the Winter Olympics and they announced someone and they were like, silver medalist. I was like, wow, she's a badass. And I remember being like, oh, wait, I have a silver medal. Like, that's how people look at that. But at the time, you know, I would get picked up by a car service and he would be like, oh, an Olympian, you know, like, did you win a medal? That's the first question. Yeah, I did. Did you win gold? No. Oh, bummer. And that was just, oh, that was like dagger to the heart for me. medal, but then die five years later, like guaranteed. I think like it was staggering.

It was like 80% said yes. I always bring that up because I think that illustrates that's how serious it is. Like you are willing to like die for like that goal. And that's how much it means to you. And when you look at it, you're like, that's ridiculous. Like what? I say that now. But in that moment, when you're in that tunnel, I probably would have said yes too. And I think that it's the best and worst part about it. I'm Katie Hoff, and this is The Rich Roll Podcast. The Rich Roll Podcast. Greetings, podcastonians. My name is Rich Roll.

This is my podcast. Welcome to it. My guest today is Katie Hoff, or since getting married, Katie Anderson. Dubbed, for better or worse, the female Michael Phelps, lots more on that in today's conversation. Katie is an eight-time world champion that made her first Olympic team at just 15 years of age, the youngest member of the 2004 USA swimming team.

She won five first-place Olympic bursts at the 2008 Olympic trials. She took home three medals in Beijing, and over the course of her career, toppled more than a few world and American records, accruing eight world championship titles along the way. A bunch more I want to say about Katie in the conversation to come, but first, let's take care of business. We're brought to you today by recovery.com.

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good in my life to sobriety. And it all began with treatment and experience that I had that quite literally saved my life. And in the many years since, I've in turn helped many suffering addicts and their loved ones find treatment. And with that, I know all too well just how confusing and how overwhelming and how challenging it can be to find the right place and the right level of care, especially because, unfortunately, not all treatment resources adhere to ethical practices. It's a real problem, a problem I'm now happy and proud to share has been solved by the people at recovery.com, who created an online support portal designed to guide,

to support, and empower you to find the ideal level of care tailored to your personal needs. They've partnered with the best global behavioral health providers to cover the full spectrum of behavioral health disorders, including substance use disorders, depression, anxiety, eating disorders, gambling addictions, and more. Navigating their site is simple. Search by insurance coverage, location, treatment type, you name it. Plus, you can read reviews from former patients to help you decide. Whether you're a busy exec, a parent of a struggling teen, or battling addiction yourself, a parent of a struggling teen, or battling addiction yourself. I feel you. I empathize with you. I really do. And they have treatment options for you. Life in recovery is wonderful, and recovery.com is your partner in starting that journey. When you or a loved one need help,

go to recovery.com and take the first step towards recovery to find the best treatment option for you or a loved one again go to recovery.com okay katie hoff so this probably isn't what you think it is because it's not some kind of totally unrelatable success story because Because the thing about Katie, what's most interesting about her, to me at least, is that this is an athlete that could and probably should have had a far more decorated career. So what do I mean by that? What exactly happened or didn't happen? Well, it has to do, at least I think, with the complicated mental and emotional implications of elite performance, as well as external forces beyond an athlete's control.

And this is what forms the focal point of today's conversation. The vertigo-inducing success Katie experienced at such a young age, the insane pressure that accompanies high highs, the bitter disappointment she experienced by failing to live up to unreal, I think unfair expectations, the process of then picking up the pieces, trying to move forward with life in the wake of dreams unrealized,

and of course the valuable and applicable life lessons learned along the way. Katie's story is candidly told in her recently published book, Blueprint, an Olympian story of striving, adapting and embracing the suck. You can find her online at kthoff.com and on Instagram at kthoff7.

This one is fun. Katie is an absolute delight. It's littered with gems. So here we go. This is me and Katie Hoff. So nice to meet you. I know you too. Thanks for coming out and doing this in person.

I know it's actually my first, I've never done a podcast like this in person person with like a studio. That's so funny, cause it's all Zoom these days. All Zoom. Yeah, but you've done a bunch of podcasts, just never, you've never done an in-person podcast

with anybody? Maybe like a, okay, there was one that was like in a, I wouldn't call it that, it's like in a small room and it wasn't like a studio. But yeah, I think over COVID, I feel like I knocked out like 15 because it was just like all I could do. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

I was the one having to worry about my lighting and like my background. And I got really good at lighting. Well, we have good lighting here. You have great lighting, I noticed. You're gonna look fabulous on YouTube. It's all good. Delighted to good lighting here. You have great lighting, I noticed. You're gonna look fabulous on YouTube. It's all good. Delighted to have you here.

It's so funny because of course I knew about your career and followed your trajectory over the years, but it wasn't until you started popping up on Jesse Itzler's Instagram stories. And I was like, why is Katie Hoff at Jesse's house teaching him how to swim? I thought that was so entertaining. And then you spoke at his like,

build your life resume thing. And then I saw you had a book coming out and I was like, oh, she would be great for the show. So that's when I reached out. Oh, well, thank you. How did you meet Jesse initially? That's such a strange, I mean, he's such a funny, cool, awesome dude, but I would not have predicted you two colliding.

Neither would I. It's actually a really kind of crazy jump connect story. So I, Kurt Steinhorst, who is a speech coach, does his own speaking. My agent at the time had connected us last year to do like a speaking camp. Like, cause you know, I really love public speaking and I knew I wanted to get into it more after my book. And Kurt had also worked with Jesse

and I actually had known of Jesse before because Todd, my husband had seen him speak at an Equinox event and Todd was blown away by his charisma and his energy and his story. And so when I had the book coming out, I could just kind of got into this mode of like, well, I just want to talk to every expert out there that's doing what I want to do, which is speaking and sharing your story. So I just DM'd him. I just slimmed in the DMs of Jesse and I just said, hey, big fan, I love what you represent. I'm actually gonna have a book come out in a few months. We have a mutual friend in Curt.

What do you have? Five minutes. I just would love to pick your brain. And I did this to a couple of people and Jesse responded within six hours. Like, hey, email me. And I email him and we set up the thing. We FaceTime, which I was, oh my gosh.

And I find out that he's at his Connecticut place, his Connecticut house, and he's there for another day. And he was like, look, I'm gonna give you your advice. He was like, but in return, you have to promise to come to one of my events. That's the deal. I was like, I don't see how this is a deal. Like these are all just benefiting me.

Like how can I give to you? And I'd heard him talk about how he's doing this big, fortunately it got canceled this year, but big event with swimming. And I'd seen that on his Instagram and I was like, well, why don't I give you a swim lesson in return? And he was like, yeah, come out. I was like, okay.

And you were in New York at the time, right? So what did you just took the train up and went to his house? I just, we rented a car and I said, do you mind if I bring my husband and my little Frenchie? And he was like, absolutely. So we drove out and ended up spending the day with his family and Sarah and gave him the swim lesson.

And just that's how it happened. He's true blue that way. I mean, first of all, he's an incredibly gifted. He is extremely charismatic, incredibly gifted public speaker, like so natural and moving. Really like touched in that way. But more than that, he just has this huge heart.

Like it's not surprising to me that he'd be like, yeah, come on over and hang out. And he likes to have lots of people around, you know, like he's in, he likes hiring young people. Like there's all these young people running around him and like working on his social media and stuff like that. And he's running this whole like enterprise, you know,

basically off of his phone, essentially. Yeah, it's wild. And Todd and I left, we were sat in the car, we drove away and I just looked at him and I was like, I just feel like being around him, you just wanna be a better person. Like that's the best way to describe it. Just how he and his wife interact

and he interacts with his kids. And it just was a very cool experience to be able to meet someone so successful, but he really is- Incredibly grounded and always super enthusiastic and optimistic, you know? Yeah, yeah, yeah. I just remember seeing video clips,

he's in the pool and he's wearing the Hoff cap, like he's wearing your swim cap. And you know, he's got a lot of work to do on his swimming a little bit, you know? Yeah. But God bless him. I will say the other day. He's come a long way.

He posted a video in the ocean. I was like, is that him? Like he looked so different compared to what he looked like in the pool last year. So I was impressed. He was gonna do this Ultraman race. So I was helping him and my coach, Chris Houth, who also is friends with Jesse,

was trying to guide him in the right direction. But he's doing a million different things. Like his approach to these events is not the one that the hardcore athlete would take. Like he's squeezing, I mean, he gets all these workouts in, but he doesn't compromise any of the other things that he's doing in his life. He's like, I just wanna finish. He takes the training seriously, but he's not compromise any of the other things that he's doing in his life. He's like, I just wanna finish.

He takes the training seriously, but he's not the guy who's like all in and like, this is what I'm doing. Yeah, I feel like he's just like, whatever the race throws at me, I'm gonna handle it. And I'm just gonna tough it out and I've done it before. So sounds like that's what he did for his hundred miler. Yeah, I know.

Probably not the smartest though, when he tells the story about how that went down. Yeah, it sounds crazy. It sounds, I don't know how he did it. It sounds like it just was mind over matter type situation, so. Well, here you are, you're on the other side of incredible swimming career, which we're gonna get into.

And now you've got this book and you did a Ted talk and you're kind of this public speaker person and you've got this business. I'm always interested in the transition from super elite athlete into the kind of pedestrian world of everybody else. And it's not a very gracious one for most people and it's very difficult. And you seem like you very gracious one for most people and it's very difficult.

And you seem like you've had your bumps and I appreciate it in your book, like how honest you were about the difficulties with this, because I think it's really hard when you're somebody like yourself, who's so in the spotlight and everything is so excited and the stakes are so high in everything that you're doing and all these people are paying attention

and it feels like it's meaningful to then overnight be like, oh, I guess I just have to figure out how to, you know, make my way in the world. Yeah, and I think that's also why it took so long to write the book. People, I guess five years isn't so long, but to me it felt long. And I never felt like I could be honest about just

how much I did struggle until this point. And yeah, like you said, it, it, you go from, from the age of, you know, I think even 10, if people were telling me, you know, you're Katie Hoff, like you're breaking state records. That's who you are. And I remember even telling my dad, I think I talked about this in the book. Like I got to cued in backstroke race and I just had a meltdown. And my dad was like, it's okay, it's fine. I'm like, no, but like, I can't,

I reached a level where like, I can't do that. I'm not supposed to mess up. I'm not supposed to fail. And that carried all the way through. And then to really end my career, not the way that I wanted to. And then I kind of took the other direction of, instead of embracing everything that happened in my career, I turned and ran and didn't want Olympian associated with my name and said, I'm just gonna redefine myself and be this corporate person and be recognized and get accolades in that way.

And- Did you really go out of your way though, to make sure that people didn't know who you were, like from the Olympic world in the corporate world, or did you, cause most people would just trade off that. You know, it's funny. I think there were moments when I wanted people to know, but at the same time, like it was this,

I kept straddling this war with myself. I wanted to be recognized as that's what I've done with my life because my life didn't make sense if people didn't know that about me. Like, wait, you're 26, you're starting this entry-level job, like why? So then I would want it to come out and be like,

well, here's why. Right, just so you know. Just so you know, like I'm not, but I felt like I was starting over. And so there was that side of it. And then there was the other side of it where I didn't, you know, I didn't like when, you know, I would get a call out on a sales call

for hitting great numbers and they would be like the Olympian because I wanted to be recognized because I had done something. Right, the merit on its own. Yeah, so it was a weird straddle of pick the day, which day did I want people to know, did I not? Yeah, I think there's this strange tension

with the athlete, not specifically swimmers, but people who are participating in sports where it's really an individual thing, where you become, to reach the highest level, you have to be very good at taking direction. Like you have a coach and your coach tells you to do these things and you execute on those. So you're a good rule follower in that regard.

And hopefully under the best circumstances, that relationship with the coach is more of a partnership, but it really is about kind of checking boxes, right? And doing as you're told. And yet at the same time, it's very, so that bodes well for like the corporate world. Like you have a boss and the boss tells you to do these things and then you go out and you do it.

But on the other hand, your success is dictated by, basically it's between you and you, right? And you're fueled by this desire to be the best version of yourself, right? Yes. And that's kind of an entrepreneurial sort of flair. So those two things kind of work together, I think in the sport of swimming.

But when you go out into the world, you kind of have to decide like, am I gonna be in the corporate machine or am I gonna try to do my own thing? And in your book, I see that tension playing out, like you're trying both things and trying to figure it out. Yeah. It's funny. And I feel like I'd always claimed to everyone that, oh, I could never be an entrepreneur because I didn't see this side of it. I just saw,

yeah, I'm the most successful version of myself when I'm being told what to do, I check the boxes, boom, boom, boom, success. I never thought that I had that in me and that entrepreneurial spirit, which now I know that I do, but I think that's why I immediately beeline to the corporate world because I saw the parallels. I saw, okay, I hit this number of emails and this number of calls and this number of activity that equals being this on the ranking of success. And it correlated, it was almost an easy transition, but it wasn't a healthy one because it just, I also, when you're check, check, check the boxes and swimming, you're trying to break a world record.

You're trying to get the best in the world. Yeah, there's a much greater personal investment in what that success looks like than there is in the corporate world. Yes, and so I think after a few months, I was wondering why I had this empty feeling because I was doing what I thought I was supposed to do. Like, okay, well, this worked in swimming,

check the boxes, I'm doing everything possible. I'm going above and beyond, I'm staying late, I'm coming in early. Why do I not feel dissatisfied again? Like I thought it was that easy to be like, swimming's done, great. I'm just gonna transfer all of those skills I learned and go into the corporate world and it's gonna be easy.

It's gonna be awesome. It's gonna be awesome. So, I mean, there were definitely a lot of things that translated really well, just to me, sails and swimming, there's a scoreboard, there's the getting to know people, understanding them,

matching mirroring. Like I loved that piece of it where I could have, and I was in the fitness world. So I could have someone in front of me, learn about them and help them, find a fitness journey. And I was very passionate about that.

But the hard part was when I hit the numbers, I didn't have that same feeling. It's not like getting on top of the podium. It's not, but I felt very, I think, misunderstood because again, the world, I had plunked myself out of the swimming world where I was surrounded by individuals who were going for those same goals as I was. Being fortunate enough to be in a really high level club

to high level swim teams where others were going for the Olympics. And so to be surrounded by people who hadn't had those experiences, I felt almost like, wait, why do I not feel this way? Because they're telling me I should feel this way. And I felt very like what's wrong with me kind of, and maybe I'm just not being patient enough. And look how long it took me to become an Olympian. It took me 15 years from the time I, not even 10 years from the time I started swimming.

So maybe it's just that I'm not being patient enough. And I was beating myself up over that and thinking, okay, well, I just have to wait and then I'll feel satisfied. But then at some point you realized not for me. Yeah, I think at some point I finally, I had to hit myself over the head with it enough times to realize, no, I don't think that it's not that this organization or that organization isn't great and I'm learning things, but I don't think

that I think I need to do something that I'm owning and I'm able to set the rules and I'm able to feel empowered to do so. And that took five years before I even had the confidence to say that. Yeah, well, at the same time, you don't have a coach either, right? You have Todd and you have support, but it is a little bit of a different thing.

It's scary in that regard. But the difference is you now then have that personal investment in your success. It's like where you take it correlates to what you decide to do and the work that you put in, which makes it kind of like swimming, right? Yeah, and I think for the longest time, I kept thinking, okay,

cause my whole thing was, okay, what did swimming give me? Why did I like swimming so much? And it wasn't necessarily the actual sport. It was what it made me feel. And that feeling is extraordinary. I felt extraordinary to be striving to be the best in the world. That was such an awesome feeling to me.

And for the longest time, I was like, well, maybe I'm just never gonna get that feeling again. Maybe those are the glory days and maybe I'm just never gonna get that feeling again. Maybe those are the glory days and maybe I'm just not going to, but it was more, no, you just need to find a passion again that is equal or greater than what swimming gave you. And it wasn't fitness sales, it wasn't operations, it was being able to share my story

and then empower others to also feel strong and confident. And that's, I think how it finally all clicked. Yeah, yeah. Well, you're lucky that it has clicked so soon for you. Took me a lot longer, you know what I mean? I think we put so much pressure on ourselves, especially in this kind of Instagram culture that we all live in, like live your passion

and you need to quit your job and like do your thing and now's the time. And I think that ends up making a lot of people feel bad about themselves. We have lost our ability to just value, like it's cool to have a nine to five job that where you can pay your bills and put food on the table.

And if that's providing you with value in your life, like that's fantastic. But for some reason we've decided that's not good enough. And I think it puts undue pressure, especially on young people to have things figured out right away, like either right out of high school or college. And these things take time.

Like there's a process of, you have to go on this inside journey with yourself to discover what that is. And for some people, they figure that out quickly. Like if you had been rather than a swimmer, a guitar player or a violinist or something like that, that's something you could apply for the rest of your life. But because it's sport, it has an expiration date on it.

And when you're trying to compete at the highest level, there's no mental space to consider what you're gonna be doing next. And I think that creates an existential crisis for a lot of athletes. For sure, yeah. And it's almost like, if you, in my mind, if I was planning for my future,

that meant I didn't believe in what was happening in a year. Like, wait, why am I, the Olympics are in a year, why would I plan on what's happening after? Right, and you're jinxing yourself. Totally. You can't make plans for what comes after because that means that you don't believe that you're gonna be able to do the thing

that you're working so hard to achieve. Yeah, and I remember I always had this canned answer. It was when I was living in California and I thought I was gonna go into the fashion world. I thought I was gonna, yeah, that was gonna be what I was gonna do. And people would always ask like, so what's gonna be next?

And I remember thinking, what's next? Like, and I'd be like, yeah, like I think I'm gonna go to fashion school. Like that was just like my brush off answer. But you know, when you're all in, you're all in. Like there's no, for me at least, and maybe that would have provided a little more balance had I had a hobby or I was looking ahead.

But I think just naturally, like that is just my personality on the obsessive side. And that's, it's a strength as well as a curse, but I was not looking ahead. It was just, let me focus on making this next team. And that's all I care about. I think that's most people in your situation. That's the way, I mean, yeah,

there is no space for that. Like when you're trying, when you're talking about not just tenths of a second, but hundreds of a second, you have to be so all in that you can't devote one second to considering what's going to come after this chapter. Yeah. And I would think, I mean, anyone, like, you know, anyone who's successful in business, in entrepreneurship, in a sport, I feel like that is a trait where you can hyper-focus and be, I say obsessed, but consumed in the best way. And that's how you reach that top level.

And so I actually, I love that feeling. I love being all in on something and just gripping it and not letting go until it's, everything has been squeezed out or it's done, so. Right, which is why it's not surprising that you were magnetized by Jesse and Sarah. Yeah. Because they're both all in on what they do

and the way that they live their lives. Yes, to the extreme. I think it's, yeah, Jesse, especially with some of the things he does, like he even the way that he does, you know, the steam room or the cold tub, like that is all, like everything that he does, I would say is 150%. Because how you do anything is how you do everything.

Exactly. Yeah. Well, let's take it back. I mean, what's so compelling about your career isn't so much the great successes that you've had. It's, you know, for me at least, what resonates is the disappointments. Like on paper, yours is a career

that probably should have been a lot more decorated than it was, right? And so you've had to kind of manage expectations and pressure over the years as somebody who showed such extraordinary promise as a young person and lived up to and fulfilled some of those expectations. And yet at the same time, I imagine, you're in a position where you have to look back

and reflect on that career and deal with the fact like that you probably could have done things that you didn't do, right? Is that fair? That's very fair. It's a very hard pill to swallow. And I think again, why I took so long to write the book. I just wasn't ready to swallow the pill. Like it was just way too big.

And- Because what, talk to me about that. Like just the fear of reckoning with that, like emotionally? Yeah, I think every time I tried to, it was just breakdown, you know? And fortunately I have, you know, a partner, a husband now who is very understanding of that, but I would get triggered all the time by watching swimming or,

you know, remembering a memory or just if someone doubted my effort, there were just so many things that were coming up and I kept just saying, okay, the past is the past. I just need to move on. And which we all know, like is the worst thing you can possibly do. But I think I just had such sadness over certain parts of my career. And I didn't really know, it's hard to say to someone who doesn't quite fully understand.

I have three Olympic medals and I'm disappointed by that. Right. And I didn't feel comfortable saying that really until I said it in my Ted Talk, which was 2018. That was the first time I wrote it. And I was like, am I gonna say this out loud to people? And what are they gonna say?

And are they gonna judge me? But that's the ultimate opener to a Ted Talk. I have three Olympic medals and I'm disappointed. I actually could have started. Welcome to my tech talk. You should have started like that. I wasn't quite confident to own it quite like that. But yeah, I think really the only, and I said it to my husband the first time I met him, like the first night we had a conversation, I admit it.

I felt comfortable to, he was an elite athlete too. And I felt comfortable to say that, but yeah, I just felt like it was, I would burst into tears and I wouldn't know why. And whether I would be at work in the bathroom and I would just start crying. Our office had clear windows, which was terrible for that type of thing.

But yeah, I think it was just, I appreciated people in my life for not kind of thing. But yeah, I think it was just, I appreciated people in my life for not kind of forcing me into that and just kind of letting me kind of flail for a few years. I almost think that was necessary evil part of the healing. But yeah, I just, even now, I think I write this in the book, like I'm never gonna look back on certain things and be like, yeah, I'm okay with that.

Right. There's just, and I think that's most people, like there's certain parts or certain things that might happen in your life where it's just gonna still be a little painful. And I think that's just okay. You just have to learn from it. Well, Caroline Burkle, who was just here,

who you lived with when you lived in California, you guys were roommates. How long did you live with Caroline? We lived together for almost two years. And then I was still living, cause I was in city of orange, so Newport city burned. And then she was still living in Santa Monica. So I would drive up all the time.

So she was talking about the traffic today. I was like, oh, I remember when I drive up on Saturday afternoon to visit you. But Caroline, who's been on the show a couple of times, big podcast favorite, she talks about being this kind of feeling athlete. Like for her, it's all about emotions and how she feels. And the sense that I get from you

is that you're quite the opposite. Like you're like, here's the set that I'm doing. And here are the numbers that I have to hit. And here's where my heart rate has to be. And here's how many hours of sleep I have to get. And your confidence is derived from, you know checking those boxes, like we talked about before, right? Like, as long as I do these things

that I can stand up on the blocks and feel confident about my ability to execute in this race. And I guess with that comes a sort of detachment from that emotional self that is kind of Caroline's fuel and reckoning with the kind of wake of your career is requiring you to be a little bit more like Caroline, right, and like wrestle with some uncomfortable emotions because you can't be like that robotic approach served you well

in some regard as an athlete, but as a human being, it truncates your ability to kind of mature and work through all of that. Yeah, that's such a great point. I've actually never thought of it like that, but yeah, it's actually funny when Carol and I lived together, we'd be having conversations about sets or it was like we were speaking two different languages.

She doesn't even know what the qualifying times are or anything. What were my pieces of practice? I'm like 27.15, you know? So I was, and I think that, you know, that started very young at 13, 14. I actually never forget when, so Eddie Reese, a coach just retired.

And he's one of the first people I remember going to an Olympic camp, pre-Olympic camp. And he was like, all right, we're gonna do these 100 yard swims. And they're just strong. And that was like a nightmare. Like what? What does that mean?

Strong, can you be more specific? Like to the hundredth, he was like, you're 13 years old, just go, you know? But that was just never how I operated. Like I had a whiteboard in my house with covered in times, like down to the hundredth. And that is, I think from a very young age where I derived all my confidence from.

And so you're right when there were no splits, there was no specific, here's the order that you do things. Here's how you go about this in a very structured way. I felt like I was in a free fall and not knowing, not having had the tools to really handle the emotion, because even after 2008, I didn't really handle how Beijing went. No, you just move forward.

Just move forward. Compartmentalize. Yeah, and wonder why those four years were probably one of the toughest times of my life because it just, everything is just shoved down. And okay, like what times do I need to go now? And how much cardio do I need to do? And all those things that I just clung to.

So that's why I look at all of this as this, obviously I'm sure you would have liked your career to have gone differently, but it does, like what occurred provides you with this amazing growth opportunity to kind of look at yourself in a way that maybe had everything gone the way that you wanted it to you would never really do

because you wouldn't be compelled to, right? For sure. So ultimately you can become this more self-actualized individual by really, you know, not trying to deny it or look away from it, but actually going towards it. Yeah, and I think that's what I eventually came to and what really helped me move forward.

And, you know, I have solved my days, but I think, like you said, self-actualized, understanding what I went through, understanding the struggle and really being able to talk to, you know, young individuals, entrepreneurs, right? That if I just had won, gone and won five gold medals, win, win, win, I probably would never have taken a look inside and understood, okay, how do you hit rock bottom, seemingly you're rock bottom and get back up and what do you do and how do you fight and all of those things that I think now

I can speak to someone on a very vulnerable and authentic level and connect with them because people experience that all the time. Yeah. And- It makes you much more accessible and relatable, I think in that regard. But I also look at it,

I'm somebody who's been in recovery for a long time and the way I kind of look at addiction or any kind of like errant behavior where you're living out of alignment with a better version of yourself is that the universe begins to knock gently and says, hey, maybe you should take a look at this thing that you're pretending doesn't exist.

Yeah. And you ignore it and you ignore it. And you're like, I'm gonna buckle down. I'm just gonna keep doing it my way. And you can get a certain level of success with that. But then it'll knock again, be like, hey, yeah, I'm still here. You're still not looking over here.

You know what I mean? Until eventually that knock becomes undeniable or your whole life falls apart and you're just forced to. And I've had that with substance, but when I look at your career, I'm like, oh, there were certain things that kind of happened along the way where maybe you could have, course corrected a little bit, but I'm like, oh, you know, there were certain things that kind of happened along the way where maybe you could have, you know, course corrected a little bit, but it's like,

no, I'm gonna keep doing it my way. And then it's like, okay, that's not working out. Now it's, you know, it's a stomach issue, right? Some meat you had and then the blood clot thing. And it's like, it had to actually get completely pulled out from underneath you in order for you to kind of like deal. Yeah, yeah, I know the 2012 trials, like just I've never had a worse stomach feeling,

never been able to not eat. Like I remember people were like, you're just nervous. No, this is my third Olympic trials. I'm not nervous. I just, I feel so ill. And now looking back, that's the one thing I'm like, why? Like, why? Like, I didn't feel like, I thought I could swim through it

and it didn't make a lot of sense. And, you know, ended up not making the team because of that. And then, and at that point, that was probably in the thick of me flailing. I just had not dealt with so many things after 2008 and had no idea who I was in terms of identity. And then, make a comeback, finally feel like, I had made strides.

I think I had been a better partner in a coaching athlete relationship. I had empowered myself a lot more. I was in a really healthy relationship. And then yeah, blood clot thing happened. Yeah. Still need to, still need to knock. You're like halfway there, so.

Right. For people that aren't familiar with your career, we should probably walk through it a little bit so they understand what we're talking about. But I wanna go back to the beginning. So you, first of all, your parents met at Stanford, right? Yeah. And your mom was like this high point basketball player, high point scoring to this day, right?

Like she was a crazy star on the Stanford women's basketball team. Yeah, she was a beast. It was cool in 04 when Palo Alto is where the camp is held for the Olympics. I was able to actually go and see her name on the list. And at that time she was third time all point scorer at the time.

Like Arriaga, the alumni center where they have all the sports stuff. Yeah. Yeah. It's actually a funny story when my mom got that, that point total that got her on the list, my dad decided to run onto the court with flowers in the middle of the game to give her.

Wow. Oh my God. If you knew my dad, you would not, it's very out of character for him. And my mom was happy, but also like the clock's still running, like what are you doing? There has to be video of that. I don't think there is.

I've asked so many times, like that was in the day where, I mean, now we'd have it on cell phones. Yeah, now we would for sure. I would be surprised. So wait, what years were your parents at Stanford? So my mom, she would have been 78 to 82. Okay. And my dad actually, he went to Purdue,

but he did his masters at Stanford. And they actually met, they were both, which my mom's coach was not happy about this after the fact, but they both did not bungee jumping, but they jumped out of a plane and did the whole free fall thing. And my dad came down and landed on his ankle, twisted his ankle.

And my mom went, it's so cute. My mom went and, you know, stayed with him in the hospital for the day. And that's how they met. That's cute. Yeah. I was just thinking like, if there was video of him running out with the flowers,

you could edit that together with the video of how- Todd running out? Yeah, exactly. Todd running out proposing to me. Yeah, I know. I feel like I need to try to do more digging because that would be really cool. That's actually crazy.

I've never thought of it like that. They both ran out. Yeah. So I showed up at Stanford in 85, so I just missed them. Oh, okay. But that's how close I am to your parents' age, which is embarrassing. But then what's interesting is you're homeschooled.

So you're born in Palo Alto, right? And then you're homeschooled all the way through high school. Pretty much, there was a period of time in kindergarten and fourth grade where I demanded to go to school because I just wanted to see what it was all about. And I was like, okay, well.

And what was that about for your parents? It started that when I was gonna be going in middle school, first grade, second grade, the school system wasn't great. And so my mom kind of begrudgingly was like, okay, you can go, but I don't feel great about this school system. Were you living in Maryland already at that time? We, no, we were in Virginia.

So we moved from Palo Alto to Virginia when I was five. And yeah, it just kind of was something that my mom was gonna homeschool my brother and I, and then it kind of morphed into, well, this is actually working out really nice with swimming, my schedule, it's not as stressful. And my brother ended up going to middle school in public school,

and then he was in public school throughout that time. But I liked it. I felt like I got my social from my swim group. I still got to go to homecoming and prom with friends. And so for me, it was just like, I watched these kids so stressed, not getting enough sleep. And I was like, well, I don't wanna do that. So I'm just gonna stay homeschooled.

So where does swimming enter the picture? Pretty young. Young, but entered at five, but like summer league. It lasted a year, because I was the tiniest little kid and I was freezing all the time. And I told my mom I'm done. So didn't swim when I was six.

Which summer league pool did you swim for? I swam at the Kings Point Dolphins in Williamsburg, Virginia. Okay, so you're further side, cause I grew up in Bethesda. So I know that whole, what is it? MCSL like summer league circuit of all the summer pools. Yeah, it's a big deal, like very competitive.

Yeah, yeah. Like it was,, yeah, I mean, it was everything and parents were intense about it and kids were intense about it, but I just kind of hadn't found, like I was definitely neurotic little kid, like literally from like if an arm was out of place and my doll line up, like I would have a meltdown. So I was very obsessive compulsive, but I wasn't.

Which is goes in hand in hand with the whole splits and being like very controlling about the whole thing. Yeah, it all lines up. I actually heard that story for the first time from my dad, like three weeks ago. I was like, really? I did it, he's like, yeah, like it was a thing. Wow.

And then, yeah, so then I kind of missed it and had friends doing it. He's like, yeah, like it was a thing. It was a thing, wow. And then, yeah, so then I kind of missed it and had friends doing it. And seven is when I went to the year round where it was still twice a week. But still that's pretty young for year round to get into the year round thing. Definitely, yeah. And at that point I still wasn't getting it.

Like I was not. Still, it's so interesting to say still. You're freaking seven years old. All right. At that point I'll take still. At that point I wasn't, you know, I was cheating, like, which I hate telling this cause it just hurts me to my core.

But my, like the coach would, we'd be doing walking lunges around the pool and the coach would turn her head lunges around the pool and the coach would turn her head and I would do like a little mini run or we'd be in the middle of like a 50 meter pool trying to swim and my mom would say, I would stop and turn around, but there's no one behind me to like get a break.

Right, so you're the kind of person who looks at that and thinks if I hadn't done, if I hadn't cheated when I was seven, maybe things would have been different. Not that extreme. I just cringe at it because I just, you know, I hate that. But, and then I kind of had this moment where my friends, obviously they were beating me, but I remember thinking like, wait,

like, I don't know when it clicked, but it was just like, wait, like they're beating me and this is a race. And I don't, I don't know when it clicked, but it was just like, wait, like they're beating me and this is a race and I don't like that. And I think that was around probably eight, just turned nine and it was a very big shift. Like it was suddenly like, okay, like how do I, now how do I win? This is unacceptable.

This is unacceptable. How do I become the best? How do I beat them? And that's when I talk about this moment a ton as I had this moment in practice where I kind of figured out how to reach this extra, I call deep down gear. And at 10, you decide I'm going to the Olympics.

Yeah, cause that nine I made, like I mean, the progress was crazy. Like I decide, okay, I'm gonna start, I wanna start beating people. I learned how to kind of work hard and reach that uncomfortable level of pain in practice. At nine. At nine. Yeah. Didn't know what that was yet,

but told my dad, I found the deep down gear and he's just like looking at, I feel like so many times my parents probably looked at me like, who is this child? It's almost like a weird past life thing, right? Like how are you at nine to have the self-awareness? Like, oh, I have to really push myself. It's almost like your brain's not even mature enough

to understand that equation. No, well, especially now that, you know, I work with young kids and I didn't think it was weird until I started working with people and not hearing that a lot. And I'm like, oh, that was kind of unique or I don't wanna say weird, but a little strange that I was that conscious of that. And that conscious of even what pain is and pushing past pain.

But I mean, the results were so immediately happening for me, which was I think lucky in some ways. Like I did the work and then suddenly it was like, oh, I just now I'm top two in the state and now I'm breaking state records and the momentum just kind of flowed. Right, so at 10, what was the like epiphany in terms of the Olympics?

Like, was there something on television or was there somebody you were looking up to that like that light bulb went off? 2000, I had just turned 11. And that was when I remember us, we were on vacation at the beach and we had the Olympics on. And I remember Caitlin Sandino was on vacation at the beach and we had the Olympics on.

And I remember Caitlin Sandino was 17 and she was swimming the 400 IM. And she was, I think she medaled in a couple of events. And I was like, wow, like how cool is she? She has this cap, you know, USA cap with her name on it. Like I just was enamored by the whole thing and not having any idea of how do you make an Olympic team? You know, how'd she get there? What did she do?

I just was like, oh, I need to do that. Yeah. And of course I think, you know, every kid at that age says like, I wanna be an Olympian, you know? And so I remember always being frustrated. I don't think they do though. You don't think so?

No, I don't think so. I think a lot of kids are just having fun or their parents are like, you need to get out of the house. They're't think so? No, I don't think so. I think a lot of kids are just having fun or their parents are like, you need to get out of the house. They're not like, all right, what's the time you gotta make it? Yeah, I guess maybe a little older, but I think I was saying it with like intent.

Like I was saying like, okay, like, all right, so what's the next cut? What's the trials cut? You know, what do I need to do? And- At 10, you're like, what's the trials cut? I mean, I guess I got the job- At 10, you're like, what's the trials cut? I mean, I got the job. Your parents must have been like,

what is going on with this kid? They definitely had to hold me back a little bit because I remember at 11, I was angry as I'll get out because the older kids were doing doubles, two a days. And I was like, well, I need to be doing two days. Like, how can I be doing two days?

They were like, you have plenty of time in your life to be doing doubles. And so they held me back a little bit, but I mean, it was pretty hard once I was locked in. And yeah, I remember I made my first nationals at 12 and- That's crazy. Yeah, and just, I mean, I didn't swim well, but I- You must have been the youngest person by a long shot.

Yeah, I think, yeah, I think at that nationals, the only reason I'm thinking is- You see young, like boys don't end up qualifying for nationals until like at the very, like 16, maybe a 15 year old. Women, it tends to happen a little bit younger. There's the occasional 13 year old, but I've never heard of a 12 year old making nationals.

Yeah, I think the only other, and there's been, yeah, it's like very spotty throughout the years. You know, Dana Vollmer, I remember she was at trials at 12 or something like that. But yeah, it was, again, it was rare, but in that instance, I just didn't. You were like, of course.

I'm like, this is normal. And it was kind of good, I think, to be honest, that I didn't feel, no one made me feel like I was abnormal or if they did, if they were like, I felt special. I felt excited, like, wow, I must be doing something pretty cool here. And I remember the boys that I swam with,

cause I swam with 15, 16 year old boys and boys, I say, they were definitely not men. Boys were jealous or, you know, and that made me even more like, oh, like I'm just gonna be competitive about this. But at that meet in 2002, I watched Natalie Coughlin break the world record in the hundred backstroke

and go under a minute for the first time. And I remember that even more so. I was like, oh, like Olympics, but like, oh, now there's a world for the first time. And I remember that even more so I was like, oh, like Olympics, but like, now there's a world record on the table. Like that just kind of upped the ante for me in terms of really lighting the fire of, okay, I need to do all of these things now.

How do I do it? Yeah. And at 15, you materialize all of this. You make your first Olympic team in 2004. Yeah, which I, even a year out, I did not expect that. You know, I obviously had the goal to make an Olympic team, but I remember sitting down a year out, my parents, we moved to Baltimore,

yeah, a year out from 2004. Was that specifically to join NBAC or your dad got a job or how did that work? Half and half. At that time I was doing well on my team in Virginia, but it was tough because again, I was swimming with boys and I didn't really have any female training partners. And I just felt like we needed something more.

And at the time too, my dad was commuting to Maryland anyway. So we were like, let's give it a shot. And I clicked really well with Paul Yetter, who gave me exactly what my robot self wanted in terms of times. And I remember we drove up there for like kind of a trial practice on a Saturday morning.

And we were doing a set of 200s and he showed me the piece of paper and it was literal splits for each 200. And my eyes lit up. This is my guy. I was like, we are moving. You got me, I'm sold. What was interesting about reading about that

in your book was that, I guess I just assumed that if you're swimming at NBAC, you're swimming for Bob Bowman and there's that one pool, right? And I didn't realize that it was more like the team that I swam for Curl where there's multiple pools around the region and there's lots of different coaches. And you were swimming in this really shitty,

tiny little pool, like four lanes and like, yeah. It was called Night Diver. So yeah, there was like this. It's like a scuba diving tank or something. Pretty much, it had this bubble over it. And I mean, I was coughing every night. Like it was, you didn't roll up to this place with this bubble and think,

an Olympian's gonna come from this pool. Right. It was hot, but yeah, it was a group of 10 or 12 of us. And the girl, Courtney Kalish, her brother Chase is actually an Olympian now. We had met at a regional meet and hit it off really well. And she was swimming really fast and I felt like, okay, great, I can have a female training partner.

And so that was kind of the draw as well as Paul as having a girl that I could connect with and train with. And we became really good friends. So you go to trials, you qualify in two events, 200 IM and 400 IM, right? You're only 15 years old. That had to be, you know. Surreal.

Yeah, very surreal. And then you're faced with the prospect of actually having to do it at the Olympics. I think people don't understand, like it's all about trials, right? Like your perspective doesn't really extend beyond that because it's all about making the Olympic team. Then you make it, then you're like, oh shit,

I've got to actually go to the Olympics now and swim. But you were so young, I can't imagine that there was a huge amount of expectation and pressure on you to like medal or win gold, you know, like win gold or anything like that. Maybe on yourself, but externally. I feel like, I'm very thankful that social media wasn't as big back then, what, 17 years ago.

But I remember reading articles and, you know, the day after trials was done, I was with this group of Tom Mauchow and Caitlin Sandeno, who I just watched four years earlier to be in this big sports illustrated thing. So there was that, there was all of these, there was articles about meddling. So I felt like, at least at the time,

it felt like, okay, like now you're expected to win medals for the US and maybe win gold. And, but you're so right. I was so, I was, the year out, I was obsessed with just making top eight. That's all I wanted to do. I was like, I need to make top eight so that in 2008, I'm prepared with the experience. Once again, like very, I'm prepared in the experience of swimming and Olympic trials final. And then, you know, I drop a ton of time. I win both events and then, yeah, it was like, oh my God,

that means I have to go swim at the Olympics and do this all over again. And be away from my coach who I clung to, he wasn't able to come and be on the staff or anything like that. And then be away from my parents for six weeks, which I'd never even been out of the country. So I was a just turned 15 year old,

but I was a very naive, looked like I was 12, 15 year old. Just wasn't, just was in over my head. Yeah, one of the things you talk about in your book is like not exactly getting the kind of support that you wish that you could have had as a young person. Yeah, you know, and it's funny, I've talked to so many people at USA Swimming now, and they've been so great about saying like,

yeah, like things are so different now in the way that we support newcomers on the team, or even the building of the World Junior Team, where it allows young people to go and travel the world as a national junior teamer. And they had that when I was at that age, but it wasn't as prolific. It wasn't as, hey, you need to do this

because those things matter. That experience helps you feel confident when you're in a ready room with all these different people from all these different countries. To me, it felt like the Hunger Games. It just felt like what's happening. But I think another thing is, I never, now looking back, I don't really expect it because everyone is facing their own struggles. Coaches, athletes, it's the Olympics. It's the ultimate. And so I think it's very difficult to step outside

of yourself and see that someone else is struggling. And there are people that did it and I shouted them out and Gary Hall Jr, Jason Lee, Zach. To do that in that pressure cooker that is the Olympic games, I think it's above and beyond. And I do wish that maybe I'd had someone understand what was going on and intervene, or if I had felt confident to say,

hey, I need some support, I'm kind of floundering here, but I just don't think that that was there at the time. And I think that everyone was just trying to forge ahead. Everyone was thinking about their own shit. Yeah, 100%. They've got their own races to worry about. Do you know who Alexi Pappas is? Yeah, she was a guest.

Yeah, she was a guest. So she is an Olympian track and field athlete, competed for Greece in the 10,000 meters, I think. But she's also an actress, a writer, director, producer. And she made this film called Olympic Dreams. That's a fictionalized account of not really her story, but the story of a young female athlete who goes to the winter Olympic games

as a cross country skier and has kind of a not so great experience like and the emotions of like contending with that where her coach is not there and she feels very alone. And I just, when you were counting that story, I was like, oh, you gotta watch this movie. Yeah. I'm sure I can relate to it very much so.

Yeah, looking back and even I think being outside of it, you have conversations with people that make you go, oh, wow, how did I do that? People talk about like what they were doing at 15 and I'm about to walk out in a final or for the Olympics. But in that moment, you're just, it's fight or flight. Like, am I gonna run or am I gonna face this? And I just remember just terror,

just full on terror, just sitting there. And like, I used to do this thing where people would, if someone was walking by, like I'd look at them and be like, I kinda wish I was like, just could trade places with that person for just like 10 minutes, like just for this race to be done. Which is like- Yeah, but you don't know

what's going on in that person's mind. It could be the same thing. It could be a nightmare inside their head. So not a good game, but that was just how much I, in that moment, wanted to flee. Like it was just, I didn't, I hadn't kind of developed that system of confidence

and I feared the 400 IM for the longest time because I just felt like I had messed up so many times or taken it out too fast and died. And there was just like this, I viewed it as like this mountain that just kept beating me and I could never get back to the top. Yeah, you don't end up meddling. You get seventh in the 200 IM and 17th in the 400, right?

Throw up all over the pool deck. What's that? Throw up. Throwing up, that's okay. Yeah, it's fine. But the following year, I mean, look, Michael Phelps went to the Olympics at 15 and didn't medal. People forget that.

Like they just think it's all golds all the time, but when at his first Olympics, I remember when that happened and everyone's like, oh, he's the future, but it's not like he won a gold medal first time out. So you go home and the following year, you sign this like 10 year deal with Speedo and you go pro and suddenly you're buying cars

and like handbags and stuff. And like, it's all good, right? The world is your oyster because it's all gonna be about the next Olympics. Yeah, that was a crazy year because I came home from Athens, kind of licked my wounds a little bit, but there was never a feeling of like,

I'm done or I don't know if I can do this. It was just redemption. It was like, I want to show people that that wasn't a fluke, that, you know, just- But it's interesting you use the word redemption. Like, what did you feel like you had to redeem? Because you didn't meddle? Like you were only 15.

But that was, for me, that was, I had flat out failed. Like the articles that were coming out that I shouldn't have read. I remember specifically, actually someone else told me this because I didn't fully, I think I blocked it out, but all the computers were in the basement in the village. And after the 400 IM,

I masochistically go on and look on the internet and I saw just this flurry of just negativity and how I failed and how I fell on my face and just kind just this flurry of just negativity and how I failed and how I fell on my face and just kind of lost it and burst into tears. From like no name people or like rowdy and stuff? From, yeah, there was a couple of people that I very much looked up to that were saying

really, really hurtful things. And that just, I'm so happy that social media was not that way in 2004, because I don't know if I, I think it would have been a lot harder to overcome. You'd be in your dorm room scrolling. Just look, yeah. And I think, you know, for the longest time, the picture of me throwing up on the pool deck

at 15 years old was the first thing that popped up on images when you searched my name. And my parents had to like ask them to take it down, you know, at 15 years old was the first thing that popped up on images when you searched my name. And my parents had to like ask them to take it down, you know, at 15, that's true. Now 15 years are like, well, you know, my hair is messed up in that one picture, edit it. Right. This was me just, so that was very traumatizing, but yeah, I viewed it as I've let everybody down. Like we had a party. I remember a welcome home party when I got back and I was miserable. I don't think people knew, but I didn't feel deserving. I was like, which I know it's like, when I say it,

it's crazy, but I was like, I failed. Like I didn't meddle even on seventh in the world at 15. Why are these people here? Like everyone should just leave. Like I need to get back to work and redeem myself. Yeah. That's, you know, and maybe that was. And also the compartmentalization too.

Like that's in the past, I'm putting that away. I'm moving forward. Here's what I have in front of me to do. Yeah, and again, it worked for the time being. It was, you know, my coach Paul and I sat down and it was like, all right, well, A, you need to figure out how to not be fearful of the 400 IM because it's truly messing with you.

Yeah, but it is terrifying. It is the most painful worries. Like no one is in the ready room. I have a joke with Elizabeth Beisel, who's in fellow Olympian 400 IM are amazing. Got the silver in 2012. And we call it like the 400 IM stomach. Like it's just a very specific feeling before and after

that if you were plopped into a situation, not having done the 400 IM and someone was like, what's this feeling? You'd be like, oh, I'm about to- Somebody's gonna turn your insides out completely. It's never gonna be, whether it's an amazing race, a terrible race, you gain 50 seconds, you drop 20, is always gonna be the most painful thing ever.

And I actually have come up, we're talking to one of our executives at my old company. And I was like, yeah, it's the 400 IM analogy. And I was like, what are you talking about? Like, if you pretend in the ready room of the 400 IM that you're like, yes, I'm so excited to send this race. If you're just, you're excited for 4 a.m. that you're like, yes, I'm so excited to send this race. If you're just, you're excited for the result,

but like you're not, if you pretend it's not there, just pushing it down and ignoring it is almost more emotional energy than just saying, wow, this is gonna suck and this is super painful. And that doesn't mean I'm being negative because I'm doing this cause I'm trying to break records and go best times. But by, to me, by embracing that and anything and acknowledging it,

it makes it that much easier to attack and go after. Right, but what you just said is like a corollary for your life at the same time, right? The idea of ignoring the difficulty or the pain of the 400 IM is almost a stand in for like that idea of how ultimately compartmentalizing these things doesn't work out, right? You have to like acknowledge, right?

You're saying I just don't take my own advice. No, I'm just saying like, no, what I'm saying, I think you're doing it now, but what you just said in terms of the 400 IM is kind of what we're talking about in terms of life as well. Oh, for sure. Yeah, I did not use the 400 IM analogy

when I stopped swimming for sure. Like I didn't turn and acknowledge things and yeah, I did not take my own advice, but in just the 400 IM situation, I was good at acknowledging that, but you're right. I think so many things that I did really well in my career didn't necessarily translate and benefit when something was done.

Right. So you're on your way though. 2007, you set your first world record in Melbourne. You have your Natalie Coughlin moment, right? Seven years after that idea was incepted into your brain. And then in 2008, like, here we go. Like everything becomes insane. Yeah, and I could feel it building, you know,

it's like, you're kind of like click, click, click. And I hate roller coasters and I've been manipulated and forced to be on a couple, but it truly felt like that building. Rationing up. Yeah, like 2007, I mean, 2007 is probably one of my favorite years just because everything, I felt like every time I got in the water,

it wasn't even like a question in my mind. It was just like, if I was behind, if I was not feeling great, it was like, oh, so? I just knew, like I had this confidence that it was just gonna happen. And that feeling carried over into 2008 leading up, but the problem was it just kept building. And every time I did a great swim or broke a record

or I swam at this like dinky meet and broke the American record in the 1650 when it was supposed to just be a training swim. Like it was almost like- And that's not even your event. No, like it just kept, I kept kind of going like, what is happening? Like everything's going well, but-

Who held that record? Was that a Janet Evans record? It might've been, I don't know. Like I wasn't that record? Was that a Janet Evans record? It might've been. I don't know. Like I wasn't, I remember like people were making fun of me because- Now you sound like Caroline. I know, you're right.

I thought you would have known that. I should have known, I should know. Well, cause it was the mile. I wasn't even, yeah. So it was, I almost was kind of adding on to the expectation every time I got in and breaking records and doing this. Like each success just adds to the expectation every time I got in, I'm breaking records and doing this. Like each success just adds to the pressure

and the expectations that ultimately you're gonna have to shoulder in Beijing. Yeah, and I remember as six months out, three months out, more interviews. And I remember saying the words, but inside kind of freaking out and not knowing who to admit that to. Because I was so like, if I admit this, like I'm kind of freaking out. Like, this is a lot.

Like I haven't even won, I haven't even won an Olympic medal yet. And everyone's swimming a lot of events, same as Michael. And I just remember thinking, okay, like just take it one thing at a time. At trials, I'm seeing a ton of events. So I remember saying, even if everything goes wrong, I'll at least make it in one event. Like that was kind of like my, what I'm saying. Escape hatch, like it'll be okay.

But meanwhile, you are starting to freak out. Yeah. And I feel like sport has come a long way in even the last decade in terms of reckoning with the mental aspects of elite performance and recognizing that, you know, coaches, parents, therapists, whoever need to be, you know, checking in more on the emotional component here.

But maybe at that time it hadn't gotten to that point. And it's just like, are you good? Yeah, I'm good. Okay, we've talked about that now, right? Yeah. Without really understanding like, oh man. This is a lot. What's it like for a 19 year old

to suddenly be thrust into this position where so much attention is being placed and expectations are being placed on you. Yeah, and I think, you know, now talking to even my parents, you know, my parents were wonderful throughout my career. They were, they let me in the driver's seat. They were supportive.

They, you know, my dad was the hype man. You know, I'd come back from practice like, dad, I hit these paces. He'd just be like, yes, that's amazing. My mom was the more sensible, reel it in. Like it hasn't happened yet. You know, she was the analytical one, but I don't think my mom even says now, she's like,

I didn't know how to stop the train from going as fast as it was. It was just like, go, go, go, go, go. The Today Show's here three months out. I'm sitting down with Matt Lauer one-on-one. Like what was happening? And you can see it. I watched that interview with him for the first time

when I put it in my book, like I'd never seen it. And I can just see the, I can see what I'm saying, but I can see the look on my face and you can tell inside I'm like, whew, all right. Was that before trials or? It was before trials. Yeah, it was probably, I think it was like six weeks before trials,

he came and I just felt like there's the best analogy I always give is like, there's a barbell on my back, it's 45 pounds, I can walk around all day with that on my back. But it was just like each day it was like, here's that another five. Another five pounds. Another pounds, another five. And I think I put so much emotional energy

as any athlete does into trials because it was every single day, a big event schedule out of the gate. And that I remember finishing trials and going, I have to do that all over again. Oh my gosh. So you go to trials, you qualify in four individual events.

How many of those did you win? Did you win all of them? Yeah. You won, you got four first places at trials. 200 IM, 400 IM, 200 free. 400 free, 800 free, 500 free. Oh, five event, five, right. And the only, yeah,

it's like one of those stars aligning moments. So those, you're no longer getting five pound weights added onto that barbell. Oh, it's like 45 pounds a day. Yeah, exactly. It's almost like I was doing it to myself. I mean, in a good way, right? I was swimming out of my mind with,

and so many of the races were close, you know, the 200 free, I think it was seven, eight one hundreds in between me. And then there was a super close race in the 200 IM between Natalie and Ariana. And so, and I'll never forget being so mad because I did the first day I did the 400, the second day I did 400 IM, the second day of the 400 free. So two days in, I'm already four 400s of racing in. The next two days, I have six 200s between the two.

Yeah, I think people that aren't familiar with swimming don't understand. It's not, you're not swimming five times. You're swimming like 15 times or something, right? Yeah, I think it was 15 times. You have to swim prelim, semis and finals, except maybe in the 800, do you do? Prelims and finals.

Yeah, there's only two for that, right? There's only two for the 400s as well. Okay. But it was just, I mean, again, like the US is such a force that there was no taking it easy or you had to be a game, you know, when you're going against those people. And so, yeah, I left the trials, I won five,

I think Michael won five and the media was like, yes. Right here, we have our, we have our like, yeah, I left the trials, I won five, I think Michael won five and the media was like, yes. Right here, we have our like tightly knit narrative. Like you are the female Michael Phelps, right? That's a very easy story to tell. You know, it's very appealing to the public because everybody wants to know who the female Michael Phelps is gonna be and you won five events,

like who else is it gonna be, right? Yeah, it was fair. So here we go. Yeah. It was fair, but also if you, obviously. But it sets you up. If you don't win as many medals, as many gold medals as Michael, then you failed. Yes.

And I will say in my defense, he was, I think he had four world records at that point of his, you know, and I had one and it was, I was trading the world record with another girl, Stephanie Rice. And so I didn't feel like, oh yeah, like I'm going in ranked first and everything. You know, there were so many other competitors.

The average public doesn't know that. Yeah, exactly. They don't know anything about that. Yeah, and we should also point out that Michael was your teammate, like he's swam at NBAC and- Both the Olympics at 15. For people that don't follow swimming.

It was too easy. How, did somebody ask you like every single day what it was like to swim with Michael Phelps? Like I get the, it's literally like the line of questioning goes, oh, it depends on how curious that you swam. Oh my gosh.

Do you know Michael Phelps? Do you know Michael? Or yeah, sometimes you swim and then assuming you know Michael Phelps or they find out, oh, you swim in the Olympics? Like, wait, I'm like, here we go. Right. Yes, and then, so that's definitely.

So how do you answer that? I go, yeah. It depends on the company, I would assume. It we go. Right. Yes, and then, so that's definitely. So how do you answer that? I go, yeah. It depends on the company, I would assume. It depends on the company. I usually will just say yes. And I mean, Michael's an awesome guy. And so I always, you know, I think he's been through a lot and there's a lot of things that have happened

in his career, good and, you know, maybe not so great. And so I always use the opportunity to be like, yeah, he's an awesome guy and been through a lot. And I always like to use the opportunity to do that because sometimes I think it's similarly very unfair. Oh, can you imagine? I mean, yes, you can. I can. You're one of the few people

who can actually imagine what that guy had to endure. Of course, there were gonna be moments where he was gonna crack under that kind of pressure. Anyone would. But what he's done in the wake of all of that is so inspiring. Very much so. Yeah, he, and I was really happy

to get to reconnect with him for my book. And we were able to talk a little bit because my heart feels so much for him. Because like you said, I can understand, but I can't. Like I can't understand a fraction of what he feels. And just having been his teammate, you know, in 09, we swam together when he was going through a really tough time.

And so was I, but yeah, I just think it's super unfair. Sometimes the expectations and the, you know, place we put certain people on this pedestal, think it's super unfair sometimes the expectations and the place we put certain people on this pedestal and it's not fair. It's just not fair. Well, we like to put people on that pedestal. We like to hoist them up and then we wanna look for how to pull them down and any opportunity that we can, people line up for that, unfortunately,

that's the way culture works. But then we also like when they come back. Yeah, the comeback. And he's done that as well. So, you know what I mean? Yeah. All right, so you go to Beijing with just this unbelievable amount of pressure and expectations being placed on you.

And you talk about this in the book, like things don't, they don't go to plan. You end up walking away with three medals out of this experience, but you don't get any golds. And you fail to make the final and the 800 free, like things just didn't work out the way that they could have and maybe they should have, I don't know.

Like, how do you look back on that and think about that time? Yeah, I think I always wonder, you know, if the 400 IM had gone maybe a little better, like what if I had won gold in the 400 IM? Right, like you got silver, you were basically touched out. The 400 free, yeah, I got touched up.

But the 400 IM, I actually look at the 400 IM as one of my best swims of the meet because yes, I got bronze, but I was within a half a second of the time I did at trials, which was the time that broke the world record at the time. And it was just on that day. Those other two girls like went under 430

for the first time, right? Yeah, and I remember in the race thinking, I must be doing terribly because there, I can't even see, she's two seconds ahead of me. And then when I touched, I go, oh, okay, like that actually was a great swim for me. But instead of thinking that way, you know, you go through the little mixed zone right after you finish and it's, are you happy? Like the media is questioning me, you know, what are you, are you good with that? You got bronze, you know, right at the gate. And then, you know, it didn't really

have the support I needed from, from coaches, from my coach afterwards. And so I think that really started the meat off on the wrong foot. And it felt like, I think after that I started scrambling and the 400, I get touched out. The funny enough, the 200 free, I break the American record. I go best time. It just happens to be that I get fourth.

And once again, so every time I kind of had a good, wow, that was a really good swim for you personally. It was what happened, that was a fail, you didn't win gold. And you just feel like that boulder is rolling downhill in the wrong direction. Like there's a momentum with that, right? For sure. Just like-

And you can't catch your breath because like every session you've got one or two swims. Yeah, and I think that's actually where compartmentalizing skill came in handy because it was like, every time something happened, it was just, you literally have three hours until you need to go back to the pool and you need to get up again and go for it

and represent your country. But there were times where I'm caking on eyeliner because I had just bald my eyes out and I didn't want them to be puffy. So people saw it, represent your country. But there were times where I'm caking on eyeliner because I had just bald my eyes out and I didn't want them to be puffy. Right. And some people saw it, I was crying. You talked about how you hate the, you know, like when you parade around the deck

and you gotta wave and like smile and all of that. And you're like, I'm just here to race, man. I don't wanna do this dog and pony show. I wish I was more like, I just, I remember, I remember talking about that with someone. They were like, then why do you wave? I'm like, well, that's what people want. Right, if you don't, then they're like,

what's wrong with her? Yeah, like, what's wrong with that girl? She must be cold, you know? She's not a patriot. Yeah, so I always was kind of like, all right, here we go. I'm gonna smile and, you know, wave. But yeah, like I, at that, you know, I was cap goggles on first, I wanted my stuff off first

so I could be behind the blocks, like the first one. So I was extra ready. And Beijing was the pinnacle of the fast scan super suit era, right? Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah, I feel like Speedo opened Pandora's box with, and then all the other suits came with.

So it was like a crazy onslaught of world records just being set all over the place. And everybody realized, maybe this wasn't such a good idea. They've really put that back in the box though. I would have thought, well, once that's out, like there's no way we can go backwards. We really did.

We did. Yeah. And all those records have been broken since. Yeah, yeah, pretty much. So that's, yeah, I think that also normalized like, okay, so you get an American record and then turn it free. Well, what's that? Right.

You know, like I think to the American public, because it was like world record, world record, every second it normalized it that people didn't think that was anything special. I mean, I didn't in the moment, I didn't even know. Someone was like, I mean, I had it. So it was just going at best time, but someone had to remind me like,

hey, I think that was, but I had the 200 IM 30 minutes later. So I didn't really have time to think or even understand how it was feeling or how it was supposed to feel. So when does it all land on you? Like when you're done swimming and you have the opportunity to go, what just happened?

I think about 50% of the way when I was, so I checked out of the village when we were done with racing everything. Cause 04, I was shipped home immediately. Right, you're too young to handle. I'm too young to handle. The village, shenanigans. The village and all of that stuff.

So this time I was like hell bent. I was like, oh, I am staying, I'm enjoying. I wanna see all the events. I wanna go out with everybody. And so I checked out and I think I, again, I was shoving things down because I'm like, well, I had sponsor stuff to do. I had to smile.

And I remember the next day we had an event with Speedo. And I remember having these brief fleeting moments of like, oh, like, I don't feel like I belong here. Like I was looking around and looking at Natalie and Michael and Ryan and all these people that had won gold medals. And I'm like, okay, well, who's the person who's that outsider me?

Like I always felt that way. And then I remember, okay, well like, just forget about it, you need to enjoy. So I'd have these moments of sadness, like in my hotel room by myself. And then we would go out and then we would go to different events and I would smile, but it was still like, I wasn't allowing myself to feel.

And then I remember coming home or I don't feel like I ever fully agree to be honest with you. Like now that I'm thinking about it, I think it was just moments here and there where I would feel off or I'd have this pit in my stomach or I would do an interview with another athlete and just feel like not good enough. Like, and I would always go by gold medal.

Like I'm like, why have a silver? They have a gold, so. And it didn't even hit me that I felt that way until I watched the winter Olympics and they announced someone and they were like, silver medalist. I was like, wow, she's a bad-ass. And I remember being like, oh wait, I have a silver medal.

That's how people look at that. But at the time, I would get picked up by a car service and he would be like, oh, an Olympian, did you win gold? And I would have to say, no. Or it would be like, did you win a medal? That's the first question. Yeah, I did. Did you win a medal? That's the first question.

Yeah, I did. Did you win gold? No. Oh, bummer. And that would just, oh, that was like a nut dagger to the heart for me in that. Right, the car service guy has an opinion. Great.

Great, and at that point I was so fragile. Couldn't live up to the expectations of the guy who's giving you a ride. So my life must be meaningless. But at that point I was so fragile with all of that that anyone, I mean, it didn't matter if it was an armchair critic, it didn't matter. I was just so fragile.

And then at the same time I was deciding whether I was gonna move from the coach that got me to two Olympics. So it was tough. Yeah, I mean, in the wake of 2008, I mean, basically the next six years are just kind of fits and starts. Like you're moving around a lot, you're switching coaches,

you stop working with Paul, you start working with Bob, you moved to Florida to pick it back up with Paul again. And then you're in Los Angeles living with Caroline and the whole Sean Hutchinson thing and John Urbanchak and all of that. And just, it just feels like, I mean, I don't know that we need to kind of go through every aspect of that, but my sense of it is just fits

and starts where you can't really find your groove, right? And just, it's never really clicking. You have moments where you feel like you're on your way back and you have a race where you're in good form, but it never really comes together for you. And that's a long, that's a lot of years to be kind of feeling like out of tune with, you know, the way that you used to feel where everything was just firing on all cylinders.

Yeah, that was tough. And now looking back, you know, you do that analysis, like what could I have done differently? I mean, I really think a lot of it was that I just, I had so much emotional baggage that it just kept resurfacing. And I just don't think, you know, emotional baggage that it just kept resurfacing. And I just don't think, you know, I ever built that confidence back that, you know,

2008 felt like I, you know, the wind knocked out of me. 2009, I felt all the way from, I don't even make a, you know, a world championship team, which was the next team the year later. So then it was like sink further. I just felt like I was like in this hole and like dirt was continually coming in and I was trying to claw my way out

and I just never feel like I did. Yeah. And then all the while feeling, again, feeling like walking around the pool deck, feeling like I just don't, like people must be thinking that way. People must be thinking, oh, she's washed up or she's. That's a lot of energy to expend on that too.

Yeah. Like I think in hearing you say that, I wonder what do you think would have happened if after 08, you just took a whole year off and you had a coach who said, I'm not even letting you get in the water until we like process everything that happened. And we're gonna work through all of this

and I'm not letting you off the hook. I feel like it was the best thing ever. And then like a year later, you just started a very slow rebuild. It would have seemed, it would have been impossible because you would have been like, there's no way I'm staying out of the water for a year. Like I'm not saying it was feasible,

but just as an academic exercise, as a thought experiment. Yeah, I think it would have been probably one of the healthiest things I could have done because I finished 2009 and I almost thought about stopping. Like I was- Of course. Yeah, I know, shocking. But at the time I thought, like why am I doing this to myself?

Like I am flat out miserable. I'm crying every single day. Like it just wasn't. And you have three medals from the Olympics. Yeah, yeah. I didn't even want, I mean, they were like in like a little like bag, like in my nightstand, like that I just didn't wanna.

My name is Katie Hoff and I have three Olympic medals and I'm ashamed of myself. Welcome to my Ted talk. That's such a great opening for a talk. I'm gonna give you credit for that one. But yeah, I just, you know, and all the while I'm going, I'm still, you know, I'm working with sponsors. I'm going talking about the Olympics and how amazing it is

and like how much I love everything. And again, for the I am analogy, I'm not, I'm pretending, I'm just pretending. And it just was not healthy. Yeah. How do you think about the decision that you made to go pro at 16? Like, is there a part of you that wishes,

like you've just, you'd gone to college and had the whole NCAA experience? You know, I think there's definitely, I mean, there's grass is always greener, right? Like I think there's positives and negatives to both. The decision to go pro early, I feel actually really good about because I think, you know, while I didn't have,

I do, you know, the teammates that you make on a college team, I think are forever, you know, the friendships you build. But I also feel like I built, I have such, I mean, my wedding, five of the six women in my wedding party were swimmers and four of them were Olympians. So I think I've built those bonds,

but I think the experiences of getting to go pro early, because I didn't know at the time, but I wasn't gonna be swimming and sponsored into my 30s to work with some of the companies I worked't going to be swimming and, you know, sponsored into my thirties to work with some of the companies I worked with, the experiences I got, you know, getting to go on a tour of China with Visa. You know, there's so many memories that I think I had and that really shaped me as a person that I actually really think was valuable to me as a person and in my career. I think was valuable to me as a person and in my career. And I don't actually think that that's, there wasn't a lot of pressure during that time

because I always looked at it like, well, I'm gonna be trying to go after these things anyways. So why not be compensated for the performances that I'm doing? But I definitely think that would have made what you just said of taking the year off really difficult. Yeah. Because in that.

Well Speedo wouldn't have allowed that. Like, I mean, that's why I said it's not, it wasn't feasible. Yeah. You know. Would have been nice. Right. But I think because of these experiences,

it gives you a resonance that allows you to be really helpful to the next generation of athletes or just to people in general, like, you a resonance that allows you to be really helpful to the next generation of athletes or just to people in general, like, hey, I have a black belt in disappointment. And I know what it's like for my life to peak essentially at 17 and try to figure out what I'm gonna do. Yeah, it's, you know what?

I was talking to my mom the other day. I'm like, I feel like I've ripped off the bandaid so many times in just putting myself out there and just failing in a really large, I know it sounds. It's not failure though. Yeah. It's not failure, but no, all right. I'll rephrase that. Putting myself out there and not living up to my expectations of what I was hoping the result would be. And so I feel like now I have a level of fearlessness where I'm like, well, if it doesn't work out, I know I'll get back up because I've done it

time and time again. And I think sometimes people who haven't gone through that have this fear and I've watched people close to me or people I know not make decisions or not take actions because they do have that fear of, what if it doesn't work out? Like, how am I gonna respond? What am I gonna do?

And I'm just like, well. You could be, yeah, but what's beautiful about your experience is you can say, listen, I know what it's like when the whole world decided that I was gonna be X and I failed to live up to that. And they all had opinions on that. Like you're never gonna be under that kind

of a white hot spotlight again in your life. So you're kind of disaster proofed, right? You know what I mean? And there's a liberation in that. If you look at it through that lens to say, hey man, like I did that deal. And not only did I survive that, like I learned a lot about myself

and I can take those lessons and apply them in my life now and be fearless in what I'm doing. Because I've realized now that all of those people's expectations and opinions are actually meaningless. This is about the relationship between me and me and what I want. Yes, I have expectations that I set for myself and I will either live up to them, exceed them

or fall short of them, but it has nothing to do with, you know, the peanut gallery of the public. Yes, and I think that's something that, I mean, you're talking to me within the last year that it's clicked. Like that's, I wouldn't even be able to come on this podcast even two years ago. Like I just, I kind of put all those things together through writing the book, self-discovery, lots of conversation. And that was such a freeing and wonderful moment to have of, okay, like my life makes sense.

Like it makes, I just wanted it all to make sense. Like if I was gonna go through some tough times and some painful times, I want it to make sense for right now. I think that was always kind of my, how can I have resolution with everything that's gone on, the good, the bad, the ugly, and that right what you just said has done that.

To feel like, yes, there's gonna be lots of curve, more curve balls in life, I'm 31 years old, but okay, throw on my way because I've gone through, I've taken some shots and I'm still standing. Yeah, well, when I was 31, I was in rehab. Okay, well. No, in all seriousness, I think, in reading your book, the sense that I got,

and I think you said it earlier, is my take is even if nobody read this book and this was just a personal diary entry for you, my sense in reading it was, oh, this is the first time that she's doing this because she's trying to figure out how to work through these things. And some of this stuff, if not most of this stuff

is stuff she's never spoken about publicly or admitted to anybody. Dead on. Right, and that in and of itself is such a cathartic experience and so necessary to the growth trajectory that you're on. Yeah, and I fought it. Like I tried to start on my own a couple of times

and every time it would end in just tears. It's like, okay, I'm clearly not ready for this yet. And then I finally got connected to the ghostwriter. And even then, like I submitted, here's my 40 pages that I've written. He was like, oh, this is pretty surface level. Like, all right, yeah, you're right. I need a coach.

Like I need someone who's gonna be like, dig deeper, say more, you know, because I'd never gone there. And I knew I needed to, when it was about a month before I finally decided, okay, I'm quitting my corporate job. I'm going to write this book. I'm, I'm ripping off the bandaid. And I was with my husband Todd and his aunt, and she was really pushing. She was like, I just like, why would you not write a book? Like, why would you not write a book? Like, why would you not write a book? And I was just like, I don't feel like anyone's gonna like, again, the silver medal thing is in my head. And, um, I just, I kept, I felt very, I don't know if

she knows this, but I felt very pushed. I felt very into a corner and we were in New York and we had a long, we were living in New Jersey at the time and we Ubered back. And I like, without even being able to control it, just burst into tears, like blubbering tears, like where you just can't control it. And Todd was like, what just happened? I was like, I just, I can't, I can't, I can't, you know, I just like had this, and I was like surprised at myself because I cry a lot, but I cry when I'm happy,

I cry when I'm mad, but it was just this like uncontrollable thing. It was 15 years or 20 years of pent up, you know, compartmentalized emotion. Yeah, and he was just like looking at me like, what's wrong? I was like, I don't know, I don't know. And then I thought about it more

and it was kind of the final straw. It was just like, yeah, like I need to do this. Like it's going to really suck and it's going to be really hard. Like Todd knew he'd be like, what year are you in? Like if I was like in a good mood while we were writing, he was like, you're in a good year. If I wasn't, he's like, you're in like 2009, 2010. I'm like, yeah. You know, it was like that.

It was like working through things I wouldn't even talk about in therapy. Obviously, like I feel like my ghostwriter was like a kind of filter out everything, but I unloaded everything for eight months. So it was just like a eight month long therapy session that turned into a book, which was pretty cool. Yeah, and I would suspect feeling like lighter in your shoes.

Yeah, lighter for a while. And then right before the book was gonna come out, it's like, oh my gosh, I feel naked. Somebody might read this. I feel really exposed because, you know, and even like the little sections in the book, those were really vulnerable, like little excerpts, because the ghostwriter had asked me each week to like,

he gave me three topics and he was like, you pick what you want and you free flow and just let it come from, come from within. Not thinking, I was like, oh, cool. Like he's going to get to know my psyche better and get to know me. So I'm just going to be really honest. Not thinking that we were going to actually put that in the book and publish it. And when he asked, I was like, you know what? Yes, like if I'm not gonna make this the most vulnerable, authentic thing ever, then I don't wanna publish it. Right, it's no good unless you do that anyway.

Yeah, right. Yeah, it's surface level. But it's scary. It's scary, the day before I was like, oh, okay, here we go. And people will feel what they feel and hopefully it's positive or hopefully it helps people through something. And I think the biggest compliment I've ever,

I've been given so far is people gifting it to someone who's going through a tough time and saying like, read this book, this will help. And that's really cool. Yeah. So with that in mind, what is the advice that you would give to your 15 year old self

or your 19 year old self? Like being on the other side of this, could you have spared yourself some of the angst and consternation? Like what is it about competition at that level that people don't understand that you wish, you know, your young self kind of understood better? I think the one piece is just stopping in a, I know it sounds so cliche, but just stopping for a second and being in the moment. Like I never stopped. It was just

like, check the box, check the box, check the box, check the box, even at trials, which was in 2008, which was probably the best meet of my life. Breaking world records. Five for five. Five for five, like I didn't, it was next thing, next thing, next thing, it wasn't, wow, oh my gosh, like this is really cool and I don't know how I would have,

I don't know how I would have done that, because that's again, the byproduct of- Right, because if you're enjoying it, then it is a weird thing. Like, can you have it both ways? I don't, yeah, I don't. And I know like there's people I've seen, for example, Katie Ledecky.

I don't know her super well, but I know her, you know, we've had conversations and I'm very envious of how she has carried herself. She seems to have it very in check. Yes, and I'm sure there's, she has her moment, she's human, but I think I was always so all over the place

and next thing and robotic that I don't, just from the age of 10, when it was just like, okay, like systematic, here's what I'm doing. That's why I made my comeback for 2016, because did I even enjoy a second at the Olympics? Like everyone's like, oh my God, was the Olympics so much fun? I used to be like, yeah.

And now I'm like, no, it was extremely stressful. Now I'm honest. No, that was the thing about, yeah, the comeback was all about like, I wanna have this experience and be able to be present and enjoy it and not be so insanely attached to the results. But that's when the whole blood clot thing happens, pulmonary embolism.

And you're like, I could try to struggle through this, but that is at odds with the whole reason you got back into it again. Yeah, that was kinda, I think that was not a punch. I thought whatever, I mean, I was very fortunate in my swimming career. I never really had any injuries like a groin pull here, shoulder tendonitis there, nothing crazy.

So to finally get into the mode of, yeah, I'm gonna make a comeback, I'm gonna do this. I found a coach that was, it was just very much of a partnership at that point. You know, I'm 24 years old, I'm a student of the sport. Like I was always very curious about sets. So I felt confident to be like, yeah, we should do this. And it was a really cool collaboration

the first time in my career. And meanwhile, women are competing older and older. We have Dara Torres and Amanda Beard and all these people who are killing it. So you're certainly still very much, you know, in the midst of being able to achieve peak performances. Yeah, and I think, and of course, that the one thing that I felt alluded by

was that gold medal. And in my mind, I'm thinking, okay, the US is always strong in the four by 200 freestyle relay. To be honest, I don't think I knew I was realistic. Like I knew, okay, I'm not gonna go and like win five events at trials. I'm just pick one or two.

Just like focus. Yeah, just pick one or two, enjoy. Of course, the two events I'm best at at the time, 200 AM and 200 Free Fall on the same night. I was like, I'm not 19 anymore. I'm not gonna do that double. I'm gonna go with, you know, I had to pick, I was gonna have to pick. You wanna be on a relay, so you go to the 200 Free.

Yeah, I think that was what I was leaning towards, to be honest with you. But I, yeah, I just remember feeling so, and it was really cool to have, you know, the guy that had just proposed to me and to have him a part of that as well. He was training me outside of the pool cause he was a trainer and it was just really like,

all I wanted, I was like, God, if I could get Anderson caps, I would have a Hoth and Anderson cap. Like that would be so special to be able to have that. So I just felt for the first time balanced and I was enjoying things and I was swimming lights out. Like I was swimming times I used to pace, you know, in the peak of my training. And so to go to, you know, the year out is 2000

or year and a half out to this in 14 nationals and, you know and have this pain that I was initially told was an intercostal strain was devastating. Like I didn't know what was wrong with me. I thought I was weak. I'll never forget someone was like, Oh yeah, I had a strain the other day like that.

And they're like, acted like, you know, what's wrong with you, you can't. You were just misdiagnosed for an extended period of time. Yeah, and I remember thinking like, well, maybe I'm not as tough as I thought. Like maybe, you know, maybe I just totally doubting my whole mindset. And then to be diagnosed with, you know,

I had two of them on the bottom of my right lung. It still didn't really dawn on me. Like now looking back, like I flew six hours with blood the bottom of my right lung. It still didn't really dawn on me. Like now looking back, like I flew six hours with blood clots in my lungs. Like could have easily died. And it feels like knives in your chest, right? Super painful. Oh, it's, I mean, it started out kind of just like a cold

and then it went to, yeah, like literally someone's like stabbing you and I couldn't even take an air, so I passed out. My poor fiance is having to figure out like, well, do I call the ambulance and she's gonna get an IV, which without a TUE is disqualification to the meet, or do we just figure this out and him being an elite athlete, like I think most people probably listening to this are like,

yeah, you call the ambulance cause she's passed out, but he knew that this was everything. So I didn't wanna be disqualified. And so, yeah, I'll never forget kind of just holding out hope that I could still compete to make, you know, the world's team, which is really the setup for the Olympics in 2016. I just looked up and then I was like,

you guys have to stay, get out of the pool. Cause I know if I get out of the pool, it means this is done and I'm not gonna be able to do this. And then yeah, kind of then relief getting the diagnosis of the pulmonary embolism, because at least I know what's wrong with me. I'm not a wimp.

I'm not a wimp. They're like, get in this wheelchair, ma'am. I'm like, no, I have been training for seven weeks without a wheelchair. I'm not getting in a wheelchair. They admitted me to the hospital. And then, yeah, like I kind of just tried to fight it and thought maybe I can make my training shorter.

But is it, so when that happens, is it like a chronic thing? It recurs or what's the situation with that? It's not an isolated thing like, oh, I had these clots, but now they're gone and I'm fine. Well, it kind of depends on the person. So I had every blood test under the sun in terms of, does this run in your family?

Do you have some type of disease, not disease, but some type of mutation where it's gonna happen again? And they couldn't really find anything. So I still don't really know how they- But do you go, so you go on blood thinners, but- Go on blood thinners. Forever or how does that work? So you go on blood thinners,

essentially your body kind of dissolves the clots itself. And then you go in and they kind of decide like, are you on blood thinners for life or are you able to go off them and just be conscious? And that was ultimately mine. I was on there for three years and now I'm just conscious. And obviously with, I'm not pregnant or anything,

but with pregnancy in my future, I'll have to be careful. Right, but you haven't had a recurrence of it. No, no. But then you had your thymus taken out, right? Like you hadn't, like what happened? So I feel like that was also- Cause that's weird. Like like what happened? So I feel like that was also. Cause that's weird.

Like, is that related? I feel like it's related. And I think I was probably so rude in the hospital because it was really hard to accept this. Okay, this happened. We don't know how, there was no resolution and I'm still struggling. You know, there was the scar tissue buildup in my lungs

was I was still feeling it. I was still dying at the end of races, at the end of sets going, you said it was gonna be fine. And so then my thymus gland was twice the size it was supposed to be. So they thought it was potentially cancerous. They removed it.

And I wanted the doctor to come and say, that's probably what caused the clots. Now you're all good. Like I had this very big hope that they would be like, you're fine, you can return to normal. You can return to training. This was the issue that was making it hard for you to breathe.

And he essentially said the opposite. He was like, well, it's gonna be really tough, to have the full on capacity to make an Olympic team again, but at least you're alive. And to me that was like, what if I said that to you doctor? Like, well, you can't be a doctor anymore, but at least you're alive.

Like that's- The thymus is, I mean, I don't know that much about the thymus, but it's super important to immunity when you're young, but as you age, it becomes less, it becomes like this sort of dormant gland. But I would imagine it still plays some role. Like it can't be innocuous to just remove it,

especially when you're trying to be an elite athlete. Yeah, I mean, I would think, and I would think there'd be some type of, I don't know if it was causation or correlation to why I would have, like, if it was double, again, I'm not a doctor, so I have no idea, but if it was double in size, wouldn't that affect my body's ability to?

Right, if it was double in size, was it producing some kind of, you know, immunity response that was working at odds with your ability to recover or, you know, who knows? I don't know. I'm not, I sound like an idiot right now. I don't know what I'm talking about.

But I was sitting there doing the same thing. If your thymus is twice the size, like something's wrong, you know? And when we're dealing in a world of hundreds of seconds, you know, making a difference, I can't imagine that there wasn't some kind of impact on you physically. Yeah, cause I didn't, I mean,

talk about not feeling yourself. Like I was, I did not feel myself. I could not train the same way that I had trained right before nationals in 2014. And you know, yeah, like it was misery. Like I was not myself. I didn't wanna see people. I didn't wanna go to dinner.

I didn't like, I just was so upset that I had, again, you know, taken this risk, decided to come back into swimming. And then it was like, no. And then that's ultimately, it's like, what am I doing? Like you're repeating the cycle. You're repeating it again. You know, like I need to close this

because I'm not even, I'm like a shell of myself in terms of misery. And to do it kind of anonymously with this sort of, you're kind of saunter off without anybody really paying attention. Like it's so far outside of the spotlight at this point based upon where you were in 2008. Yeah.

That's gotta be, that's had to be hard. Yeah, I remember like, I remember, yeah, saying, I'm like, is anyone even gonna care? Like, you know, like I remember being frustrated because no one saw the times that I was doing in practice before, you know, no one knew other than my coach, maybe Todd, my parents and myself,

what kind of times I was doing and the meets I was doing well too, but it just felt very like, I just kind of got like short changed. And that was also a piece I was very resentful of culmination, obviously everything we've talked about, but that having end like that, I was like, oh my gosh. Right, like so much unfinished business.

Yeah. And how do you move forward and not allow like that resentment to fester and, you know, basically manifest in all kinds of ways that would not serve you. Yeah. So many different ways. Yeah, so many different ways.

Be an angry person, you know, I mean, really, like it's like a, it's a serious thing, I would think. Yeah, I mean, there were just so many breakdowns and so many, and I didn't really, like most people, really, it was just Todd that in my family that knew like poor guy, he was going through his own, he just finished his football career. So we were both kind of-

So how many years did he play pro? So he only played, he'll say I had a cup of coffee in the league. So he played for a year. He was a walk on, had a pretty bad hamstring injury, ended up getting cut after a year. But he was, his career was actually the opposite.

Like he was a walk on at Michigan State. He kind of was just on this like up, I'm like, I'm kind of jealous of your just like trajectory, but he was also- So everybody's underestimating him, right? He's exceeding everybody's expectations. Yeah, I'm like, he's like, yeah, but I didn't reach the high. I'm like, I don't care.

I don't care. Like sometimes we've had- But still, there's a shorthand there, right? So he didn't end up having some super smashing, successful pro football career. And you're able to have like, he's gonna be able to understand where you're coming from almost better than anybody.

Yeah, and he, you know, there's so many times where it was just like, God, you need to go see a therapist. Like you need, like this is manifesting itself and you know, and I would have like the random breakdowns or, you know, it just wasn't. And I don't think anyone really, yeah, no. How could anyone understand? But I really kept it hidden and people just kind of like,

kind of just disappeared like from the swimming. Like when I came back last year, people were like, oh, nice to have you back in the swimming world, you know, because I just couldn't stand to be in front of a group of kids and say, yeah, like swimming is fun. And I'm like, I'm lying.

Like, I don't know how to frame my career because there are positive things. There's so many positive things, but how do I do it in a way that's constructive and helpful and vulnerable all at the same time? I had no idea how to do that. And so I think people who probably, I'm sure people who from outside the swimming world saw me,

they're like, what is wrong with her? Like, why can't she find, why can't she be satisfied or, you know, why does she look upset? Or, you know, there's so many times where I felt like I just was terrible at handling my emotion. Well, I also think there are institutional failures or like systemic blind spots.

Like I feel like it's incumbent upon USA Swimming or the organizational bodies of all the sports to do a better job of creating mental health programs around not just how you deal with failing to live up to your own expectations, but how you make this career transition or some kind of programming around the emotional and mental aspects of elite competition,

because it's stressful and it's anxiety producing. And I would say the vast majority of athletes who are competing at the highest level at some point are faced with very serious mental health challenges. And there's no infrastructure set up around how to best manage that. Everybody's sort of left to their own devices

and some fall and some make their way through it, but just saying, oh, here's your meditation app or go to the meditation room, or, you know maybe you should talk to somebody I think is inadequate. And I think it now it's 2021, like let's take this seriously and let's put some time and intentionality and some funding behind figuring out how to support young people all the way through the process so that when they get to the Olympic games

and they've qualified in five events, they're mentally fit to handle it because they've been dealing with this in lockstep all along. Agreed. Yeah, and it's funny, cause I feel like now it's mental health is so prolific and what everyone talks about.

And I've been asked a lot recently, like, well, was there, you know, where did you get support? Did you get, did people reach out to you? The extent of, I'll never forget, we did this Navy seal day at Olympia. Oh right, you talk about this in the book, yeah. And you know, walking off and having this- This made you mad. So mad, being right, you talk about this in the book, yeah. And walking off and having this- This made you mad.

So mad, being like, this whole crazy day where we're in fatigues and it's freezing cold water and getting screamed at. And doesn't that make the 400 IM seem so much easier, like mentally? Like, no, no, like that, no. And I think I do take part responsibility, right? Like you have to also be willing to accept help, right?

And you have to have- Right, the problem is, sorry to step in, but I think a big problem, and this has come up with a lot of athletes that I've talked to on the podcast, your whole life is premised on not admitting weakness. Like you could not admit because that is, you know, antithetical to the performances

you're trying to execute on, right? Like I'm good, like I am strong, I am impervious and I can handle this. Yeah, you can't, yeah, I mean, the same thing, reason why I never wanted to admit out loud how terrified I was for Beijing. It's like by saying it out loud, by saying I have a problem or I'm not doing okay,

I'm not handling this well out loud just makes it real. Right. And I think, yeah. But the truth is it's real whether you admit it or not. Yes makes it real. Right. And I think, yeah. But the truth is it's real, whether you admit it or not. Yeah, it exists. It's affecting you. It's affecting your mood and your actions

and your relationships. And so I think, yeah, I think making it more normalized too. I went into my hole. I mean, I feel like some people talk to each other, but I didn't wanna admit to some of my friends or my colleagues what I was going through or why. And for mine, I always felt so, I don't know what the word is. How can I say to people, I'm upset or I'm not at peace with my career?

You know, I want to, well, you won three medals. You want to say, but yeah, but when you're being called a female Michael Phelps and you're supposed to win multiple, that is a fail. It's a really hard thing to phrase and say without sounding like you're ungrateful or do you know what I mean? Like it's something that I've needed to lean on people. Like, how do I say this? Or do you understand what I mean? Or do you understand, you know what I mean? Like it's something that I've needed to lean on people.

Like, how do I say this? Or do you understand what I mean? Or do you understand, you know, and it's been a few people in my life, even Jesse, honestly, I've had a couple conversations with him about just the transition and how I felt so strange in corporate life.

And what did he say to you? He was like, yeah, of course not. It just made me feel so understood. And he doesn't know this, but we drove away and I actually got really emotional because I was like, oh my gosh, I just feel so understood. And for so long, I felt like it's me. Again, like you put it on yourself.

Like it's for sure me. Like I'm the person who leaves a conversation or leaves an event and I'm like, all right, let me recount that whole thing and just analyze how I handled that. And like, you know, make sure like I'm self-aware enough to know like if I've messed up or if I didn't, you know,

handle that conversation right. And so I always felt like the after part was like, I'm not patient enough or I'm not framing this right. Or, you know, I just, I, and I, people have people say that to me, you know, like, oh, I'm not, I'm not satisfied. Well, yeah, that's just cause like, you know, you gotta wait your turn, you know? And I'm like, who is super successful that is patient? Like, yes, you have to wait for time,

but you're always forging ahead and, you know, wanting to keep going. And I just felt so like, it's me. Like, I think that maybe I just have been in this swimming bubble for so long that I just don't know what it's like in the real world. I convinced myself of this narrative and I just need to change and figure it out

and hopefully eventually I'll start to feel better. Right, and the problem with that is you're very good at finding that, what did you call it? The deeper gear. Yeah, deep down gear. Yeah, so you can find the deep down gear and you can grind it out, right? And you can like sublimate whatever emotions

you have around that and just grind. But ultimately that's an unsustainable path, right? Cause you're like, well, it worked in swimming and this is what I gotta do now that I'm retired and you're gonna run into a brick wall at some point. And the good news is, is you've kind of done that and you've learned from that experience.

And as Jesse said, I would say to you as well, like it's not you, it's just about finding that lane that fits with the values that you're coming to terms with. And I think the fact that you're owning this path that you're on and the past that you're coming to terms with. And I think the fact that you're owning this path that you're on and the past that you've had and simply by den of talking about it, right? Is like so powerful. And it gives so many other people permission

to recognize their own version of that pain or disappointment that they've experienced in their lives. And that's how we move forward. Like I'm sure you saw the weight of gold documentary that Michael produced. Like this conversation is happening. It's long overdue, but it's happening now. And I think it's gonna have,

this ripple effect of healing across generations from the eight year old version of yourself to the parents who are trying to guide young people through their own athletic or entrepreneurial or whatever it is career. Yeah, it's really exciting and refreshing just to see where things are headed. I mean, with my own, but the way I'm able to even talk to girls I mentor or talk to athletes that we work with

with our Synergy company. And that I think has also been, as much as mentoring people and helping them is giving, it's also equally helping the person who is the mentor. And that I think has also been helpful for me to be like, okay, this is another thing that makes sense. It makes sense for what I just went through because then I'm able to really shed light on this for someone who's, I'm seeing this person go through a very similar experience that I went through on a different level or in a

different situation. But, oh my gosh, like I know how to handle this or I know how to give advice or I know how to- Of course you do. I mean, it's out of control. Like, all right. So with Rise, which is this mentorship program that you do, you know, that we've talked about it with Caroline on the show. I mean, imagine being a young athlete and they're on the phone with you or on a Zoom call with you. It's like, I've set world records. I've won, I've been to two Olympics. I've won medals. I've won, I've set American,

I've traveled all over the world. I've done all of these things and I've fallen on my face. And I've been in situations where the pressure was too overwhelming and I've had breakdowns. Like that richness of experience is so valuable to any young person who's coming up and they're gonna listen to you.

Who has more credibility with any of this stuff than you? It's really powerful. Yeah, and it's one of those things that, again, like, but I have to be willing to share those stories, right? Like I have to be able to be vulnerable. But that vulnerability is so much, is strength. Yeah. That's your stories, right? Like I have to be able to be vulnerable. But that vulnerability is so much, is strength. That's your superpower, right?

Like if you're LeBron or Michael, like that's unrelatable. Yes, Michael's had his issues and all of that, but somebody who has blazed an impeccable career that looks unblemished and it's just this upwards, skyward trajectory. It's very difficult to connect with that person or to relate to them. And when that person's like, well, you just gotta gut it out.

You're like, well, you don't understand what I'm dealing. Yeah, it's not helpful. You know what I mean? Yeah, and I think that I actually have seen that wall break down because even so, right? You're saying like, okay, three time Olympic medalist, Olympian, all these things. And I think in the initial-

But it's the failures that give it that- No, it is. But I'm saying when they initially hear that, great. But I don't think a lot of times, some of them are younger, right? Like they don't know like my full story, but I'll kind of seep it in as we're getting to know each other and talk.

And I'll be like, yeah, so, you know, I work with a girl who's just turned 16. I'm like, yeah, I get it. You're scared of this event. I was scared of that event. And then my nightmare was realized when I literally threw a ball over the deck in front of millions of people and I had to get back up.

And like, you can see like the, oh my gosh, you know, like I'm not sharing the highlight reel with you. I'm sharing the full on behind the scenes. And I can see the impact oh my gosh, you know, like I'm, I'm not sharing the highlight reel with you. I'm sharing the full on behind the scenes. And I can see the impact it makes of, oh, okay, like we can relate to each other, you know? And I think- Or how about just like, how do you get through puberty when you have a male coach who doesn't understand that?

Like there's so much to be learned and gleaned from, you know, the kind of experience that you can relate. Yeah, and I think it's been to have now the confidence and the ability to go there with the athletes, you know, Caroline has had brought, Caroline and Rebecca have had rise for what, five years. And right off the bat, they were like, you know, do you wanna be a part of this?

I remember being like, who would wanna listen to me? Like I need a mentor, like I am flailing. I thought I had to have everything together and I was all buttoned up and like, I'm still not buttoned up. I still have days where I struggle. And now I just say that like, look, hey, I'm telling you this,

I'm struggling with this right now. Like, let's talk about this. Like, it doesn't mean I have to be perfect. And I think I thought that that was what had to happen in order for me to be ready to be their mentor. Yeah. It seems so simple. I know, it's like, it's obvious and it's self-evident.

And yet I think there's a lot of people for whom that would be a revelation for them to hear, especially if you're a young athlete coming up like, oh, you mean I can actually ask for help or I don't have to be perfect all the time? Well, it's kind of actually breaks my heart even more to hear because I was never someone who, like I was the question asker.

I was at least you willing to, I wasn't afraid of a coach to be like, I was that annoying person. Like, wait, like, can you tell me more? Like, how can I get better at this? And yes, I didn't admit when I was struggling as much, but nowadays I feel like kids are scared to even put themselves out there to ask a question

or ask for feedback. And they're like, well, and I asked- Coach said this. Yeah, and I'm like, wait, but why would you not? The coach loves when you ask how fast to go or they're like, yeah, but like, I don't wanna look stupid or I don't wanna, I'm like, oh my gosh, like that's, and I think that's really normal.

Like Todd had said to me, I was like, can you believe that? And he's like, yeah, that's pretty normal nowadays. Like people are scared of the rejection. They're scared of, again, the failure. And that hits me even more because I get what it was like to not admit that I'm struggling, but to take another step further. That means that they can't admit

they're in there struggling even more so if they can't even ask for help. Yeah, I wonder how much of that is fueled by social media where everybody's presenting these high gloss versions of their lives and it makes a young person feel even more inadequate than they already do. For sure, I mean, I can't imagine, like I have TikTok and I see what's out there.

Yeah. And I can't, like you see someone and you're like, wait, that person's 16. Like I know what I was doing and what I was, you know, dancing like and all that when I was 16 and it is eight. After your first Olympics. After my first Olympics. And this is a whole different ball game. So yeah, it's tough. I think it's a lot harder and I think kids need that much more support and help

and probably even more than when I was coming up at that age. Well, we gotta round this down, but I wanna end with, because most of the people watching or listening to this are probably more in the parental zone than they are in the young athlete zone. What kind of, you know, glean from your experience, like what's some wisdom that you could convey

to the parents out there to make sure that they're kind of guiding their kids, whether their kids are athletes or just, you know, trying to learn how to grow up in a high pressure environment, what have you found to be helpful or not helpful? I think a lot of times when parents or coaches or mentors sometimes, they want to talk at the person

instead of just being a listening ear and putting the athlete in a position to feel comfortable to express. I think we're all moving so fast. We have cell phones all the time. And so I think that a lot of times, kids probably don't feel comfortable. They feel like their parents are too busy

or they're not going to share or the parents are just gonna supply. It's okay, you're okay, right? I had a parent text me the other day, athlete had a really tough meet and what should I say? Like, don't say it's okay because that's, it just tells the athlete how they're supposed to feel. Like I used to hate it when people say that to me,

like, it's not okay. I just poured hours of blood, sweat and tears into this. Like, don't tell me how I'm supposed to feel. You have the thing in the book where, the thing where when you go to the Olympics and everybody tells you it's just another meet. I don't feel like, okay, like I know that you're, no, it is not, it is not.

Yeah, that would drive me crazy. So telling an athlete how they're supposed to feel. And I think the thing that my mom and dad did the best of just being a listening ear, letting me vent, letting me get everything out and then providing some perspective. But non-solicited advice happens way too much in this universe, I think.

And that makes you wanna run the other direction, whether it's good or bad advice, I think you're not gonna take it in in the right way. And I try to do that when I wanna hear, I just try to keep asking questions, keep asking questions that aren't yes or no to them. So that's the biggest piece of advice. So I won't ask you to give a piece of unsolicited advice

to Katie Ledecky right now. No, I wouldn't. Like if she reached out and asked me, great. But I think that's something, it's happened to me a lot in my life and my career. And it's always been something where I'm like, did I ask? Like I didn't ask, you know?

And that's actually something I learned from Jack Roach. He, I feel like you've talked about him probably a ton. He's like, come on the podcast. But he was so good at just sitting down, even if you're sitting in silence, because then it allowed me to kind of pour my heart out if I wanted to or not. And then he would just listen, absorb.

And then, you know, if I asked, he would give an opinion. But I think there has to be that relationship of respect there of just feeling acknowledged. Like just acknowledge me and how I'm feeling. And then that advice can be given if asked for. Yeah, for people listening or watching who don't know who Jack Roach is, probably most people. He was the national junior team director for many years

and just beloved in the swimming community. I have yet to meet a swimmer who wouldn't say that Jack is like their favorite person. And I think a big part of that is what you spoke about, which is this level of trust that he engendered with the swimmers and the level of respect that he gave to them, like they felt heard and listened to and appreciated

so they feel safe going to him. And he's protective of those relationships. Yeah, and I think it's normal, right? Like when, as I can't, I'm not a parent yet, but I can't imagine having a kid and seeing their kid in so much pain. Like, I don't know how my mom did it, watching what I went through with my dad,

but you instinctively wanna say, let me help you solve it, let's solve it. And that's the reaction. You kind of have to fight that reaction of like, okay, but maybe this person doesn't want what you're giving. Right, it's about just sharing space. Yes. But it's funny,

cause you seem like somebody who'd be like, how do I solve this problem? Like if somebody came to you and be like, I need to solve this problem for you. Me? Like you're a problem solver. Oh, a hundred percent. I have to fight that instinct all the time.

Like, I just wanna like tell you what I think you should do. But then I'm like, no, because that's what I've learned that I hate. And I get so frustrated. And I think that's why sometimes I would keep should do. But then I'm like, no, because that's what I've learned that I hate. And I get so frustrated. And I think that's why sometimes I would keep things in. It's like, I don't even wanna put this out there because I don't necessarily want you to solve it. Or I don't feel like you're the right person to solve it.

So yeah, it's something that I know about myself and I dissected about myself that like, calm down, like don't solve this, keep asking questions and let them solve it. Yeah. What do you think is gonna happen with the Olympics this summer? I hope it's just, I don't know.

This past year broke my heart. Like just, I can't- Can you imagine? No. What if it was you? You know, going into 08, but it was 2021 pandemic style. Like how heartbreaking. I mean, that's honestly why, like when the pandemic started, I thought, okay,

what would I, this is right when I was kind of entering back into the swimming world, I'm like, what would I want? And that's why we started Synergy. That's why I started doing these live workouts. And I was like sweating it out with kids. Cause I thought I wouldn't want someone to just be like, stay positive, control what you can control. I would wanna say, yeah, but so what can I control?

And what can I physically do to stay stronger outside the water? And that's the thing I felt like, okay, I think that's what I would do. Like I would just, and I think that's what all the, the elite athletes and people who are going to see results this year have done. Like they didn't just sit back and show they were very upset

as I would have been if they took things and thought, okay, like let's get creative. Let's build like these blow up pools. Let's, you know, like people had to get crazy. And just a diversity of experiences with respect to pool access, who could get into pools and who can't. And I mean, it's crazy and how to manage that like safely.

And it's so strange. It's so strange. And yeah, I just, and I think again, like, right, like people who aren't necessarily elite or haven't been in a situation like that, they're like, yeah, but it's like, you know, it's like, no, the Olympics is literally like everything. I mean, I think there's that study that-

And it's not like next time, like, you know, for some people it will play to their benefit because they were a little bit too young. And so now they can grow into it. Whereas others who are hanging on. Yeah, a year is like an eternity. Yeah, forget it. Yeah, yeah.

And I think, yeah, there's so many things or what's the study where they asked someone, they asked like a group of athletes. Have you heard this where if you could, maybe these Olympics, or if you could win an Olympic gold medal, but then die five years later, like guaranteed. I think like it was staggering.

It was like 80% said yes. I heard that. And where did I hear that too? I did hear that recently. Yeah, it's shocking. And I'm not that- But it's the mentality of somebody who's gonna devote their life to that goal

is the person who would make that statement. You know what I mean? Yeah, and I think I always bring that up because I think that illustrates that's how serious it is. Like you are willing to like die for like that goal and that's how much it means to you. And when you look at it, you're like, that's ridiculous. Like what?

And I say that now, but in that moment, when you're in that tunnel, I probably would have said yes too, you know? And I think that just, it's the best and worst part about it. Yeah. Well, I think we did it. Yes.

How do you feel? I loved it. So when you're driving home after driving, wherever you're driving after this, I don't want you like rehearsing this and thinking. I totally am, I totally it. So when you're driving home after driving, wherever you're driving after this, I don't want you like rehearsing this. I totally am, I totally am. That's what I do every single, like I'm not, I think it was Nathan Adrian one time.

We said something and I was like, oh, like I for sure, like I definitely like overanalyze everything. It's like, why don't you just like go home and just like hang out with your friends. I was like, I can't, I just always,alyze everything. It's like, why don't you just like go home and just like hang out with your friends. Right. I was like, I can't, I just always, I hate the people that are like, that are like, you're like,

does that person realize like how they're coming off? You know, like those people. And so I've always been like, oh my God, like what if I am not realizing how I'm coming off? You know? I think you can put your mind at ease. It was great. You feel all right?

You feel good? I feel great, yeah. I think we hit the important things. Yeah, I really liked being able to just talk about, it's almost like being able to share my side of things because for so long I just really didn't get to. And then just the piece about, like you said, like I just love being able to talk about, I hate talking about like the world records,

like, yeah, that's great. But like no one can relate to that. They're like, congrats, you know, the failures to me is where people can get it and feel. That's the good stuff. Yeah, like they can feel like they can learn from it or relate to it or, but yeah. I mean, I think what you've done to date

in your retirement is admirable and cool, but I think that there's a lot more awesome, cool stuff to come that I see you growing into. Yeah, I'm really excited for the, I like the speaking stuff as stuff that I'm most passionate about because it checks, I know I just said check all the boxes, but it checks all the boxes in terms of like,

you can share your story, which is cathartic for me still. You can inspire people. It's like a performance in some way, like swimming was, you get adrenaline and all of that. It's totally like that. It's totally like that. And then you can always get better. You're never gonna, you get adrenaline and all of that. It's totally like that. It's totally like that. And then you can always get better. You're never gonna,

you're just like, I don't think you can ever have the perfect swim. You're never gonna have the perfect speech. There's always gonna be ways to get better and change it and tweak it. And so I love that aspect of it too. So I feel like that kind of found my like next endeavor. Yeah, when the world opens up again.

I've done two virtual like sales kicks off with a company, but it's like through a screen, you know, it's such a bummer. Yeah, soon enough. Soon enough. No, thank you so much for having me seriously. Oh, this is super fun. I loved it, it was great.

Really great and you're welcome back here anytime. Thank you. Come back and visit me, okay? Yeah. Cool. If you're digging on Katie, as I'm sure you are, is it, do you prefer Katie Anderson now? Is that how, or is it Katie Hoff or Katie Hoff Anderson? Like how do you go, what's the-

I, legally I finally- People know you as Katie Hoff from swimming, right? But now you're married and- Katie Anderson legally, but I'm Katie Hoff. Like if I'm doing like a- You're at Katie Hoff seven is who you are. You know why the seven is there? Why?

Because- Seven gold medals. That was my goal. The seven gold medals that you didn't win? The seven gold medals I didn't win? No, lane seven in the 400 IM and 04 was when I made my first Olympic team. Oh, that's cool.

I like that story. Yeah. So yeah, KT Hoff, KT. And yeah, I always go with KT. Yeah, KT. Because everyone always calls me KT. Also someone stole my handle. Really?

Just K-A-T-I-E Hoff at Katie Hoff. Katie Hoff or for a website katiehoff.com was bought the day after I made the Olympic team in 04. No way. By like IPG. Well, there's like squatting laws now. People aren't allowed to do that. Oh really? Yeah. Yeah, they said they were like,

it was gonna be like 10K for me to buy it. And I was like, I'll just go by Katie, Katie Hoff. All right, well, it's good. We all know you that there now. And the book is Blueprint and Synergy is the online dry land program. Yeah, we work with teams, we work with individuals. It's been my entrepreneurship realized with my husband,

which has been kind of a cool, he's the brains behind it and I'm the swimming lens. And yeah, we do everything. He actually just did a virtual session while we were talking. Oh, wow, cool. We didn't even get into what it's like to work with your husband.

We could have a whole two hour podcast about that. So we'll do that next time. All right. Yeah. Cool, enjoy the rest of your time in LA and so nice to meet you and talk to work with your husband. We could have a whole two hour podcast about that. So we'll do that next time. All right. Yeah. Cool. Enjoy the rest of your time in LA and so nice to meet you and talk to you. Thank you.

Thank you so much. Peace. Bye. Thanks for listening, everybody. For links and resources related to everything discussed today, visit the show notes on the episode page at richroll.com. If you'd like to support the podcast, the easiest and most impactful thing you can do is to subscribe to the show on Apple Podcasts,

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on richroll.com. Today's show was produced and engineered by Jason Camiolo. The video edition of the podcast was created by Blake Curtis. Portraits by Allie Rogers and Davy Greenberg. Graphic elements courtesy of Jessica Miranda. Copywriting by Georgia Whaley. And our theme music was created by Tyler Pyatt, Trapper Pyatt, and Harry Mathis. You can find me at richroll.com or on Instagram and Twitter at Rich Roll. I appreciate the love. I love the support.

I don't take your attention for granted. Thank you for listening. See you back here soon. Peace. Plants. Namaste. Thank you.