The Rich Roll Podcast - Olympic Legend Dara Torres: Age-Defying Fitness, Eating Disorders & Protecting The Next Generation of Gold Medal Talent

Episode Date: September 22, 2025

Dara Torres is a 5-time Olympian, 12-time Olympic medalist, and the oldest swimmer to ever win an Olympic medal at age 41. We explore how she broke American records two years after giving birth, trained only five days a week while beating teenagers, and missed her sixth Olympics by nine-hundredths of a second. We discuss her revolutionary recovery-focused training, battles with bulimia, and why she still can't turn off the competitive switch at 58. Most surprising? The swimming world's indifference to her game-changing methods. Dara redefined athletic longevity. This conversation unpacks how. Enjoy! Show notes + MORE Watch on YouTube Newsletter Sign-Up   Today’s Sponsors: On: High-performance shoes & apparel crafted for comfort and style 👉https://www.on.com/richroll                                                                    Go Brewing: Use the code Rich Roll for 15% OFF 👉https://www.gobrewing.com AG1: Get a FREE bottle of D3K2, Welcome Kit, and 5 travel packs with your first order 👉https://www.drinkAG1.com/richroll                                             BetterHelp: Get 10% OFF the first month👉 https://www.betterhelp.com/richroll Roka: Unlock 20% OFF your order with code RICHROLL 👉https://www.ROKA.com/RICHROLL            Rivian: Electric vehicles that keep the world adventurous forever👉https://www.rivian.com Check out all the amazing discounts from our Sponsors 👉 https://www.richroll.com/sponsors   Find out more about Voicing Change Media at https://www.voicingchange.media  and follow us@voicingchange

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and none of the junk. Hear that? Incredible stuff. the non-alcoholic revolution is here people i am proud to help champion it alongside joe so get on board by getting with go by going to gobrewing.com where you're going to use the code rich roll for 15% off your first purchase go i'm so competitive and once i'm in like i'm all in and i'm going to do whatever i can to be the best I can be. And the biggest thing that I learned just from my age and being in the sport for so long

is listen to your body. I think you always wish you can do what you wanted to do when you were younger. And, you know, when your body needs a break, you need to take breaks. I'm a big believer in learning from people. I think researching and learning what's going to work best for you is really important. The theme of the theme of of age-defying athletic feats has been a pretty steady and recurring one here on this podcast. And pretty much from the beginning

and across the pages of Finding Ultra, and it's sort of part and parcel of what I talk about, when I talk about, what it means to transcend the limitations we impose and imagine when it comes to what we are capable of doing with both our bodies and our minds. And insofar as this idea goes, is nobody more emblematic of it than today's guest, because Dara Torres is the complete, absolute embodiment and pinnacle of age-defying athletic excellence, exceeding all labels,

every expectation to essentially astonish the world by winning Olympic medals at an age that others presume to be just well past her expiration date. As many of you know, I was a competitive swimmer myself, and because Dara and I are basically the same age, she's somebody this athlete that I first came across as a young teenager and basically this person that I can't even remember not knowing about. But for those who are not in the know, Dara is one of the most accomplished and decorated female athletes in Olympic history, a sprint freestyle and relay specialist with 12 Olympic medals and three world records to her name. She's also the first swimmer to represent the U.S. in an astonishing five Olympiads. Her first being,

being in Los Angeles in 1984 when she was just 17. Then there was Seoul in 88, Barcelona, 92, Sydney in 2000, where she won five medals. And finally, all the way to Beijing in 2008, while it's worth noting missing out on a sixth Olympic Games in London in 2012 by only four one thousandths of a second. Along the way, Dera has had many high highs,

but also plenty of low lows, as well as a couple of retirements and comebacks, each of which were more remarkable than the one before for doing things people thought impossible given the advancement of her age. So to put things in context at the time throughout Dara's career, it just wasn't a thing that a swimmer could be competitive on the world's stage beyond a certain age. And that age was somewhere in the mid-20s at best. And yet, during her first comeback in Sydney, when she was 33, Dara became the oldest member of the the USA team. She became the oldest woman to meddle and swimming and won more medals than any

athlete on the team that year. Then, after birthing a child in 2006, she returned for her second comeback to break the 50 freestyle American record in 2007, and in 2008, at 41 years of age, broke it again in Beijing, where she took home three silvers and the distinction of having swam the fastest 100 freestyle split in the world ever when she anchored the 4x100 medley relay. And then again, I should say, at the Olympic trials in 2012 at age 45, almost made, as I said earlier, her sixth Olympic team narrowly missing it by only four one-hundredths of a second. So this is a person who has done it all even in retirement, where she found a different kind of success, as a sports broadcaster, as a fitness influencer, before.

that was even a thing. She sold something like 10 million Taibo DVDs with Billy Blanks back of the day, all the way to today where she is in her second year as the head swimming coach, her first coaching post at Boston College. Dera is one of the most fiercely competitive people on the planet, probably the fittest 58-year-old on Earth and still getting after it. So how did she do what she did? How does she continue to do what she does? Which is to defy gender and age expectations to essentially excel in life in so many different ways. So that's what today is about. It's a conversation about self-belief and self-sacrifice, determination and dedication, resilience and motivation, perseverance and parenting, including parenting herself,

her daughter, and now the next generation of aquatic talent. So buckle up people because Dara is a true force of nature. Dara, so nice to meet you and have you here. I think you, did you just arrive from Singapore? I did. I was out there for World Aquatics, so I was pretty busy out there and got in last night, and my first stop is you. How did the U.S. team do?

Like, I admit, I didn't really follow the meet. You know, they're doing okay. I think that when they had their, from what I understand, they had their training camp in Thailand, and a lot of them got sick. So, like, some kind of bug or whatever. So some had to scratch some events. Like Gretchen Walsh, she scratched 100 freestyle, even though she won the 1005. And there's a lot of something going on.

So I don't know the exact amount of swimmers who got affected by it, but I think a good majority of the team did. Well, I think it's a really interesting time for USA swimming. Like, we can no longer just expect to dominate at every meet. I think Paris, you know, was kind of a referendum on that. And perhaps, like my sense of the team in Paris was that it's sort of in. transition. Like there were a lot of very, you know, accomplished swimmers with story careers at the very end of their career trying to hang on. And then this new crop of young talent that is sort of just beginning their Olympic journey. And so there wasn't anyone really who was right in the

pocket of that sweet spot where, you know, we, we tend to like always have, you know, these standout performances from our country. Yeah. You know, it's tough also because the year after Olympic Games is always a rough year. You know, you're really gearing towards the Olympic Games and considering that, you know, it was just a year ago that they had them to be able to come back and swim at Worlds. We probably don't have our deepest talent. I mean, we have a lot of great swimmers there, but, you know, some people are taking off and taking a break and some people didn't train as hard, you know, this past year. So it's not a great sort of environment to see where really our best swimmers are. And you look at Australia, too,

like they don't have a lot of their top swimmers aren't there either so well i was trying to think if we'd actually ever met and i don't think we ever had but you know you were about the same age almost exactly the same age and you know have been in sport for a long time and you know you were on this this like incredible trajectory my trajectory was you know less interesting um but you're somebody who i have you know despite not having met you like have of course known of like since i was you know probably 14 or 15 years old. So it's really fun to have a legend sitting across from me. And your story is super fascinating.

And I think, you know, people who follow swimming or know who you are are familiar with, like, the two comebacks and, you know, kind of doing something that no one had ever done before by winning these, you know, medals in your fifth Olympics at age 41, which is just, you know, an incredible story. But I think what gets lost in the sort of narrative here is that, for somebody who isn't like really familiar with what swimming was like during our time, like when we were in high school. Yeah.

Like there was no money in swimming. And there was this idea that like basically like nobody was extending their career past 21. And I and part of that was because there was no money. So no one was even trying to. But that idea was that like, well, that's your peak. You know, maybe there's a few people who could extend it to 24 or so. But like nobody was going into their 30s, let alone like, oh my God, the fourth decade. That was just absolutely unheard of, even though we kind of see that stuff now happening all, you know, kind of all over the place.

And I think you broke a barrier there. And especially with women athletes, like, I think we both know of many, many young female swimmers who, you know, would make this huge splash at between 14 and 16 and go to the Olympics, but then could never kind of repeat those performances. So I feel like it was even more outrageous that a woman athlete could, like, do this thing, you know. And I think people who don't know swimming, like kind of don't get that aspect of it. Well, you know, I think you did nail the nail on the head when you said that, you know, you didn't, you peaked at, you know, an early age or that there wasn't money in the sport. And I think that was the biggest thing is there wasn't money in the sport. So when you got down with college, that was it. You move on to the next chapter in your life.

And that's what I did. I mean, I graduated college and I went to New York and was doing sports modeling and some TV work. and working behind the scenes at NBC sports and being like really busy. But, you know, I think for me, I was lucky that I was able to save some money, come back and swim again. And, you know, then money started being the sports.

I started paying athletes, you know, at the Olympic Games if you win a gold, silver, or bronze. And you started to see that more and more. And then, you know, Michael Phelps came onto the scene and it's sort of just, you know, pushed swimming into a different level where people wanted, we're excited about it and wanted to sponsor athletes and there's a lot more money in the sport than there was back in the day, you know, when we were swimming in our

early 20s or late teens and stuff. So I think that they had that myth. And you're right, too, that, you know, women tend to peak or I guess they think they peak when they're like teenagers, but you have to remember that a woman's body changes in a different way than a men's body does. And so it's a little tougher for women when you get like, you know, go from, like, you know, a girl to, you know, a woman. It's not easy. I mean, I went through lots of ups and downs, which I know people in the swimming world probably remember, like in college had a really tough time. And then I got an eating disorder. And, you know, it was just a, it was a rough time for me. But then my body got to the point where, I don't know, it got better and better

and better. And I was able to do what I did. But, you know, I also took care of myself. I worked out all the time and, you know, not knowing I would in between my long breaks that I'd be making a comeback. But I think the fact that I stayed active really helped also. Right. The idea that you were never really out of shape, even though you were taking these, you know, multi-year breaks. But, you know, the other thing is until you and Pablo did it, you know, both of you, you know, in 1992, nobody at the highest level of swimming had ever like taken a year off, let alone a couple years, and come back at all. Like, I don't even know if that had ever even been tried, let alone tried successfully.

Yeah, I think, I didn't know how it was going to be. I remember when I made it come back after having my daughter, I went to the doctor, my orthopedic surgeon. I'm like, hey, I said, can you just, like, x-ray my body and make sure, like, everything's okay because I don't know, like, if I can do this or not? And he's like, what, do what? And I said, I want to make a comeback. And he's like, oh, and he's like, so you want me to x-ray, like your body parts?

So I'm like, yeah, just make sure, like, everything's, he's like, okay, I don't even know if he did it. He just, like, all of a sudden, he comes back in the room. I don't know what an x-ray is going to reveal unless your bones are broken. I don't know. And he's like, yeah, everything's great. Just go for it. I'm like, okay, you know. And, like, I had no idea how I was going to do and what was going to happen and if my body could

handle all the training. And, you know, I realized really quickly that, you know, I had to add recovery in there. And when I look back on my career and people like, oh, you took so many years off, had to do that. I think my body was recovering that whole entire time, you know, because as you know, in the old days, they used to just pound the yardage all the time and you didn't really have time to recover except when you tapered, which for your audience, that's when you start resting for a meat. You know, that was really the only rest you had and you had maybe one or two weeks off a year. It was a year-round sport. And so I think in reality, my body was allowed to rest and be able to come

back after all those years of training. So I think it was a blessing in disguise. Right, you were, you spared yourself like, you know, what so many swimmers had to endure, you know, which is just basically decades of walking around like a zombie. Yes, exactly. We had, yesterday I had Andy Galpin in here, who's a strength coach.

I don't know if you ever heard of him, but this guy is like, you know, just a font of incredible knowledge. And he was talking about when it comes to fitness, like you always have to start with efficiency first, you know, and kind of build on that. Right. And we were talking about all the facets of what goes into, you know,

fitness from a holistic perspective. But I was sharing with him like, you know, what swimming was like. Back in the day where it was just like no periodization, no, not a single thought for recovery. Like, sleep is optional. Like, it's like, it's just sleep deprived the entire time. So, of course, you're not, I mean, you can get away with it when you're young, but you're not really giving yourself the opportunity to recover, which is how you actually get better. And that was just the way that it was, like volume, yardage.

And on top of that, like, you're at Mission Viejo, which is like the birthplace of that whole kind of, like, training philosophy. So you grew up in Beverly Hills, you know, you're this standout kind of from the get-go. You break your first world record at, like, 14 or 15, which is insane. And then you decide to go down to Orange County and train with this guy, Mark Schubert, at this program called Mission Viejo, which was just like, that was like the math. you know, in the early 80s, like during that period of time. It was almost like there, there was a whole mythology around, like, what was going on there. Well, you know, it's funny because you made this big thing about Michigan Viejo and Mark Schubert. And obviously, you know, and I know that he was known for distance swimming.

Yeah. I mean, he was just, this guy was given more yards than anyone. I know. I know. So when he kind of, like, came up to me and said, hey, I hear you're moving to Fort Lauderdale to train for the Olympics, you know, why you just stay local? And I was like, you know, there's, I just need to be on a bigger team. And because I was on the team that I had, I didn't have a lot of competition to be able to, like, race and practices. And that's why I was looking for a team in Fort Lauderdale was the team I was looking at. And he convinced me to stay and said, oh, no, like I have these male sprinters coming in.

They're going to be great. And, you know, my training for sprinters is much different. And I'm like, hmm, you know, do I believe this? Yeah. And so when I went there, sure enough, like, we got in after everyone. We got out before everyone. our training wasn't like long distance training. Like he really catered to, yeah, he was very true to his words and catered to the sprinters.

So it wasn't as bad as what someone from the outside looking in would think. So of imagining you at like 16, you know, just doing like, you know, like 18,000 meters a day, you know, for a 20 second race. I'll tell you, like at University of Florida with Randy Reese, he would have us on Fridays do a 6,000 per time. And I'm thinking, what is this? I mean, I can't even count to a 500. being a sprinter. So to do a 6,000 for time, that was a little bit brutal. Yeah, like a 50 meter or like a 50, 100 meter dash runner, you know, like doing, you know, like 20 mile long runs. Yeah, it's crazy. Yeah. That's changed a lot. And I think you've played

like a vital role in like reimagining what swim training could be. So you have all of this success, 1984 and 1988, but like all of your medals are in relays. You still have that elusive like sort of Olympic, you know, like individual Olympic medal. What was the thought process in making this comeback in the first place? Was it just unfinished business or just feeling like you had more to express here or, you know, like you were, it's not as if you were naval gazing and had nothing to do. Like you had this career as a broadcast. You had a very flashy, like you had made this transition into this very public facing kind of glamorous career. You know, it's funny because I think a lot of the times when athletes make comebacks is because that's what they're

used to and what they've done their whole lives and they miss it like that. And the world is just confusing without it. Like a veteran coming back from, you know, an overseas conflict and like doesn't really know how to like function in the normal world. Exactly. And I wasn't like that. I had a lot of stuff going on. And when I made my first big comeback for 2000, I had been off seven years.

Like I didn't touch the water. And for me, it was just some people at dinner the year before the Olympic trial saying, you know, hey, like, you ever thought I'm making a comeback? And I was like 32 at the time. I'm like, there's no way. Like, I haven't someone seven years. And I don't know, once the thought was in my head, I'm really the type of person that loves challenges and loves trying to do something someone else hasn't done. Clearly. And so trying for a fourth Olympics after taking seven years off, I'm like, oh, that'd be cool. Let me see if I can do this. And Richard Quake at Stanford decided to take me on. And, you know, it was a very successful Olympics at 2001,

five medals finally meddled in individual events, which was great. And, you know, that was that one. And then when like fast forward six years and I got pregnant with my daughter, you know, I was, I was okay, I'm going to go to the gym. I have to work out. And it just wasn't working out because I kept in sick every time I went to the gym. And so I thought, well, you know, if I go to a pool, I can get sick in the gutter and I can keep swimming. It's not a big deal, you know. So I ended up going to a pool and started swimming a little bit while I was pregnant and then ended up joining a master's team at Coral Springs. And then about a week before I was supposed to deliver, the coach was like, hey, we have a master's nationals here in like three weeks. Can you swim in it?

And I'm like, I think I'm delivering in like a week. So I highly doubt my doctor's going to let me swim three weeks after I deliver. And he's like, well, just ask. And I'm like, okay. And I don't know, one thing led to another, and I convinced my doctor, so three weeks after I had my daughter, I swam at Masters Nationals and, you know, did okay. And then after that, I got convinced to go to Master's Worlds, which was like two and a half months later, it's at Stanford and somehow qualified for Olympic trials didn't mean to, but I did. And then all these old people kept coming up to me and saying, hey, you should train for the Olympics and represent us middle age people. And I don't know, after a lot of nagging, I'm like, all right, I'll do it.

You know, not really thinking. And that's when I got the x-rays. And he's like, like, oh yeah, you can swim. Right. I decided to swim. A couple things. First of all, is it true that you worked out every day for all nine months of your pregnancy? I tried to. I mean, I literally was nauseous every day in my whole entire pregnancy.

So when I did try to, you know, go to the gym, it just, I kept getting sick to my stomach. And so the swimming really helped. It helped me with my nausea and it helped me feel good about myself actually working out. And getting up on starting blocks like three weeks after, giving birth and like doing fine. Not a pretty sight. And then like two and a half months later, actually making Olympic trials, like that is insane. You know, like setting aside the age aspect of it, you know, to begin with.

But I think I want to start with the first comeback, you know, the lead up to 2000 where you competed and you were 33 at that time. And that was like, that was like, oh my God, 33. Like, how could you do that? Like, let alone like, oh, my God, 41 later. But I just remember, because you arrived at Stanford to train with Richard Quick, who for people who don't know is just an absolute, like, you know, legend in the sport and beloved by like anybody who had the good fortune to train underneath him. And he was new at the time as the women's coach at Stanford. And so you kind of showed up right, right, like a little bit after I had left.

But, you know, our alumni network, it's, you know, there's, there's like gossip and like, what's going on? I'm like, you know, Dara's training with Richard and we're hearing stories about like weird training protocols and, you know, you're doing things like no one had ever done before and we're like, wow, what's, you know, what is happening over there, right? So that, it seems to me there was like, there was some, there was some mythology around that too, because you were experimenting. There's a very kind of locked in standard way of how to train, right?

And you don't really challenge that dog went too much. But you came in clearly like asking questions and had found like a partner in Richard who, you know, I can only assume was like really game for this challenge of like approaching what you do through a completely new and different lens. Well, you know, he was actually like that too because, you know, for me, I actually love training with coaches who like to. think outside the box. And so when the minute I went to him, you know, I remember, first of all, he changed my stroke completely. Like it was, he's like, we don't swim like that anymore. And I'm like, wait, what? You know, and so he had a completely change my stroke. And then after like the first week, he's like, hey, you know, I want you to go talk to this person. I'm like, who? And he's like, well, he's in Washington State and his name is Richard Diana. And, you know, when I was

coaching in 96 and I had to coach the women's relay, like he was the woman's coach. And he was the woman's coach, and he was going to be the woman's coach in 2000, he's like, every personality on that relay was different. So if you tell them something, one person may be able to take it in, but the other three may not understand it the way the other person does. He said, so I want you to go see this person, and he's going to evaluate you and let me know the best way to coach you. And I was like, okay, this guy had me doing like crazy stuff, you know, and I get back and the outcome was that I'm a very visual learner. So if you try to tell me something on how to do it, I'm a I don't take it in.

Like, you have to physically show me how to do it, and then I have it, like, right away. Or you'd videotape something I was doing wrong. I need to look at it, and then I can figure it out. Instead of him saying, hey, your elbows not high enough when you do this, I'll still won't do it right unless I see it. And so he was the one who actually would think outside the box. But then he wanted us to go to Pilates. And I'm like, okay, I'll go to Pilates or whatever. And I'd never done it before.

And I went to Pilates, and I found it was like making me tighter, not looser. And the third time that I had gone, there was a guy in the course. who was like stretching someone like doing these crazy like pretzel stretches and stuff. And I said to my Pilates instructor, what's that guy doing? He said, oh, it's stretching. He goes, actually, this might be better for you than Pilates. So I met this guy and he has a partner that he worked with and they do resist to stretching, working like the different Chinese meridians in your body. And I was like, great, I'll try it. And so I also like to feel what it does for you, not just here. And so after he worked on one side.

of my body and it was such a difference compared to the other side of my body that he had worked on. I was like, this is amazing. And so I introduced him to Richard and Richard, he worked on Richard and Richard's like, that's it, hire, like, you know, once he worked on him, he's like, I want you to work with him. So that really helped a lot with my recovery after my practices going and getting this stretching done and taking them to the swim meets with me and taking the Olympics with me. It was huge. But yeah, I really loved working with Richard because he would do things that a lot of coaches wouldn't do or weren't up to date with instead of just pounding the yard, which was huge. And he's the one who actually taught me about recovery because there was one time when

we got in the pool and started swimming. I guess he could tell I was like exhausted. And I was always a type that would do my practices and then go run like five miles after or always want to do more because in my head, if I'm doing more, I'm going to be faster than everyone else. And so it was like a Friday morning, and we got it warmed up. And he's like, Darry goes, I want you to stand up doing it all out, 25. I'm like, okay. So I get up and he tied me. He's like, all right, you're getting out.

I'm like, what? And he's like, you're out. And I said, why? And he said, because you're exhausted, you look exhausted. He goes, I want you going home, sitting your couch, watching movies. You're not doing anything all weekend. If I see you running, like, you're going to get in trouble. Like, I don't want you lifting, do anything.

I came back Monday morning, had like the best practice in my life. and I'm like, oh, okay, this is what recovery is. Rather than just being exhausted for, you know, five to eight months and rolling the dice on a taper, yeah. So this guy, Andy Galpin yesterday, he framed that as the difference between what he calls like functional overreaching, which are periods where you're purposely beating yourself up and you know when you get up and try to do a 25 for time from the blocks that it's not going to be great.

But when you get those, you know, two days of rest or whatever, you're going to bounce back and like kind of have this super adaptation versus like non-functional overreaching, which is you're just beating yourself up and like digging this hole. You know, it's funny because I'm now a year into coaching at Boston College. And one of the reasons why I didn't want to coach like a long time ago is because I didn't want to ruin someone's taper. You know, like tapering and resting for each swimmer is so individualized, you know, compared to just tapering as a group.

And that was like a big fear of mine is like, what if I ruin someone's taper? and they swim horrible and then it's like on me and making sure they get the right amount of rest and stuff and making sure that, you know, when you're doing practices that if they need a recovery day, you give them a recovery day. And so that was something I was very fearful of when I took this job. Yeah, because you can only give,

when you're coaching a team, you can only give so much individual attention to each person and they all have those different needs. Yeah. But I like what you shared about Richard, approaching you initially from the perspective of like, I don't know how to help this person

until I first learn how they learn. You know what I mean? Like, that's a very cool, you know, kind of glimpse into somebody who is thinking different and thinking in the right way. Yeah, because there are a lot of people are analytical and they take things in a lot differently

than someone who's visual. Yeah. To me, when I think about your career, that seems to be like the first instance in where you're not just necessarily thinking outside the box, but you're starting to get the idea of building a team around yourself that extends beyond just your swim coach. And then you really kind of like push the envelope with that for the next go around. I did. You know, I realized that I couldn't do it myself. I was

going to be 41 years old. I started at 39 training for 08 and a little less than two years. And I felt like there's no way I could do this one myself. So I had to find someone who would think outside the box with strength training that, you know, it's like what your Andy said that you talked to yesterday. It's about figuring out how to be efficient in the pool and not necessarily be the strongest in the pool, you know, or efficient in the weight room, equates to being efficient in the pool, rather. And I had like a massage person. I had my stretching trainers. I had like everyone who could help me. And so my role in that was the one who was doing the training and that was standing up in blocks and swimming. So we each had a role. And I really surrounded myself

with people who had no egos. So we were all in it together. And it was just an awesome feeling to have this team that would work with me because there was no way I would have been able to do upon myself. Yeah, it's an interesting equation to solve. On the one hand, like you're older than everyone else. You're training in the pool with like teenagers, you know, and you're mature enough to know like, hey, I'm not going to be able to like do the double workout thing and kind of do it the way, do it the way this is, this kind of goes down. Over here, I've got to figure out a different way, but I also have this maturity and all of this experience and I know how my body works and I'm going to explore, you know, how to get the most of it given like the fact that I'm

older and like, what does that look like and what will that require? Yeah, it was, it was a little bit of a process and at least I had a couple years to sort of like figure it out. But I think what really surprised me after going through all that is that, you know, considering what I was able to do at 41, why weren't there more people asking me like, hey, what did you do? What, like, you know, what were these trainers for? What, you know, and I really didn't have a lot of people asked me. Like, I had a few coaches here and there, but you'd think if something works for someone, like, why aren't you trying to figure out what it is at work for them? So you can do that, too. And so surprising. What were the key elements, like looking back on that, that you think were the

biggest differentiators in how you were training that led to your success? I think well in 2000 I worked with a strength coach what was all about being the strongest because it would equate in the water but I also felt so heavy in the water when I was swimming because I was probably 10 pounds 12 pounds heavier than I was in 08 um so finding the right strength coach that would really like I said was about efficiency and about you know using body weight and using your core in every every exercise um also So what was really important to him was using a lot of different muscles at once as you're doing an exercise, because that's what you're doing in the pool. That's what you're doing like when you're on a track. Like you're not using just one muscle.

You're not just doing a bicep, you know. Right. These functional, functional, yes. So that was one thing. Dynamic. Yeah. Yeah. I learned that there was no way I can do double workouts.

Like my body just was not going to do that. So in my head, though, I was so used to old school of the more you do the better, the heavier you lift the better. So the hardest thing for me was not physically trying to do that, but wrapping my head around sort of mentally that, okay, I'm not doing as much as the kids, and I'm only going five workouts a week instead of nine. Like, is that going to be enough for me, you know, when I go to Olympic trials and the Olympic Games? And so the mental aspect of it was probably the biggest obstacle for me to get over and know that, no, that's what your body can do.

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health professionals with a diverse variety of expertise. Find the one with BetterHelp. Our listeners get 10% off their first month at BetterHelp.com slash rich roll. That's BetterHelp, h-elp.com slash rich roll. It's still crazy when you think about the fact that your race is like, you know, if you're swimming in a 50-free, and you compare it to how like 100-meter, track and field runners train. Right. Like, it still feels like there's a lot to be learned about how to coach sprinting for swimming. I think it's, you know, a lot of the mid-distance and distance kids will tease the sprinters

because we don't swim as long and our races are so short. But I honestly think it's swimming the 50 freestyle is probably the hardest race to swim, not from a physical aspect, because obviously foreign and I am to underfly. Those are really hard races. but mentally you have your start has to be on your race has to be on your finish has to be on you can't make one mistake it's not like swimming a 200 where you can fix something really quick and be able to to keep going I mean you have 23 24 seconds and that's it to be able to swim your race and you have to be on with everything that you swim so for me I'm really as a coach

I'm really enjoying coaching the sprinters and sort of teaching them a lot of things that that I learn, not just from the physical side of it, but also the mental side of it. The other thing that I think might not be fully appreciated by people who aren't like steeped in swimming is that in 2008, you go to Beijing, you're 41 years old, it's your second comeback, and you end up getting silver in the 50 freestyle, narrowly missing the gold, but you break the American record, like you go 24-0, right? And in like one year prior, you had broken the American record in the 53 by going like 24 or 5 or something like that, right? So it's not just that you're making this comeback at 41, like you're breaking American records by wide margins. I mean,

to go from 24 or 5 to 240 is like a massive leap. Yeah, you know, I just think because I had another year after that first year to be able to get more training. And I think that, you know, really had an effect on me. I mean, in 2000, I had a year and that was it. And I remember getting out of the pool in 2000, my last medal. And Richard's saying, you know, it's really too bad that you're retiring because you still haven't reached your peak yet. I was like, what is he talking about? I'm 33 years old, you know? And I think I just, everything was right for me, you know.

You do mention me getting the silver medal, though. I remember watching Phelps tonight before Swam the Hunter Fly. And everyone knows that race because it was all over the press. and on cover of sports illustrated, like, that touch that he was losing the whole entire way. And I remember him touching and beating the other kid, Kavish, and, you know, thinking to myself, oh, my God, that poor guy that lost by a hundred of a second. That's got to be like the worst feeling in the world. And then fast forward the next day, and I assume the 50 and I lose by a hundred of a second.

And I'm like, okay, now I know what it feels like. Yeah. But, you know, for me, being such a competitive person, it was mentally getting over that hump also. do I have to come back at 45? Like, I'm going to be a menopause by them probably. Like, how am I going to swim at 45 and try to go for that, you know, individual gold medal that keeps alluding me. And I think mentally it was just you have to give yourself a break.

Like, I felt like I did everything I could up to that point. I left no stones unturned. I had the best people I was working with to make this comeback. That if silver medal was what I won that day, that was the best that I can do. And that was a mature process I had to go through to be able to come. to that conclusion, you know. Because the silver medal is the rough one for a lot of people, right? Like the silver medal is the like, oh my God, I almost.

And, you know, people who win bronze are actually like happier than you play with silver. Well, especially losing by a hundred of a second. I mean, you can't even blink that fast. I know. I know. But then you are 45, four years later. And you almost do it again. I mean, you miss your Olympic birth by like less than a tenth of a second, like 0.09, right?

Like, that is crazy, like that that almost happened. That was rough. That whole, you know, I made a comeback for that. Like, I took a year off. I had major reconstructive knee surgery with cartilage transplant. And then I had to rehab that for like a year. So when I came back, I didn't even really want to, but my coach who was very sick was dealing with a rare blood disorder, a plastic anemia. And he was like, hey, we need to finish this chapter of our book.

I'm like, what book? And he's like, the book that we've been writing, I'm like, oh, we've been writing a book. And he's like, yeah, I know, I was like, I wasn't aware. And I said, I already wrote two books. And he said, no, like, you know, we can you imagine like coming back and doing this at 45? And I just, I felt so bad because he was so sick. I'm like, well, maybe he'll hang on to life if I, you know, gives him somebody to look forward to to coach and stuff. And so I made this comeback.

And about, I don't know, maybe six months in he ended up passing away. And I'm like, I guess I'll just keep doing this. And so I did go for it. It was so hard because, you know, we talk about recovery, but as you get older, especially for a woman, your hormones start to go. And so for me, it was about when I'd go to any meet, what a prelim finals meet, I'd always swim faster in prelims when I, at that age. Like I could not go faster because my body was still recovering from the race in the morning.

So for me, like Rowdy would make comments, you know, Rowdy, he would make comments like, why aren't you swimming 100, you have a better chance at, you know, making a relay than you would in an individual race. But there's no way my body could swim 103 times for prelims, semifinals and finals. So that was the hardest thing. And I was at least able at Olympic trials to go the same time in prelims semifinals and finals, like within a couple tenths of a second. So I was actually really happy with that. It's kind of amazing. And, you know, even in Beijing, your 100 free split on the medley relay was like the fastest of all time, you know. And yet, you, you know, and yet, You didn't compete in a hunter-free.

Yeah, like you didn't even swim that race at the Olympics. You know why because it's an eight-day meet and if I'd swum the hunter freestyle, I would have-compromised almost every single, I was swim eight times in eight days. You're relentless, like, you know, when people ask you like, what is the secret here or like how do you make sense of how you were able

to do this thing that nobody had ever done before, how do you answer that? Like, how do you make sense of what the differentiator was for you. Genetics. Yeah. Well, I broke world record at 15. Like, I've been at this for a long time.

I think actually having a love of something, like my love of swimming, I think was a great encouragement or motivator. Most people fall out of love though. And I did for many years. Because it's so monastic and brutal. Like you'll see Tour de France riders like continuing to ride bikes the rest of their life because they love it, even though that's an insanely, hard sport, but something about swimmers, they're like, I'm done with the pool. Like, I'm,

you know, like, I can't even think about that. I was there. I mean, I was, every time I retired, I was there, I'm like, yeah, I'm done. I can't do this. And then, you know, a couple years go by, you're like, God, actually, I really miss it, you know? And so, um, and I think, like I said, my, my personality type is a challenge of something. I don't like things handed to me. And so every time there was like a challenge at 33, no one's done that. No one's done that. Oh my gosh, having a kid and going up 41, no one's done, you know, and so there was always a motivating factor for me, but the biggest motivator is the love of the sport. So we're talking about five Olympics, five-time Olympian. You're the first swimmer to represent

the USA in that many Olympic games, 12-time Olympic medalist, tied for women's most with Jenny Thompson. Is that still the case? No, is that been broken? Oh, Katie, of course. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Oldest swimmer to make a U.S. Olympic team. Oldest swimmer to win an Olympic medal. And again, first U.S. swimmer to make five Olympic teams. I mean, it's just like, it's crazy. Like now that, you know, there is a lot more kind of like time and space between that and where you're at now. Like, what is your frame on that?

Has it evolved or changed? Like, how do you think about that? Because I imagine, like, everybody wants to be inspired by you and you do these keynotes and you get up and you try to motivate people. Like, has that message evolved in how you communicate the meaning of this to the public? Yeah, I mean, it definitely has evolved. And I think I'm more appreciative of everything, you know. I think when you're younger, I remember my first Olympics being 17 and just taking it for granted and just in awe of everyone else that was there.

And there's Mary Lou Retton of Michael Jordan and Patrick Ewing and all these like Carl Lewis, these great athletes forgetting that you're there. And then as I got older, you know, you become more appreciative. You're more mature about it. And I think my speeches have evolved over the years. I think now that I'm coaching, there's like a different aspect of it, too, that I add into my speeches. But, you know, I only talk about it when I have to. Like, I don't really think about what I did.

Like, I'm more of a person like, okay, I'm done. What's next? You're moving forward. Yeah, I don't think about what I've done unless someone talks to me about it or brings it up. So, yeah, I just, I don't know. It's just not me. Genetics aside, though, like, you know, you have a predisposition to be good at, you know, at this sport and specifically as a sprinter. But you did, you know, do a lot of things that no one had ever done before.

Like, what is your, what is your, what is the message that you have for the athletes out there about kind of taking responsibility for their own careers and, and thinking about performance in the kind of sunset of those careers? You know, I think it's the biggest thing that I learned just from my age and being in the sport for so long is listen to your body. I think you always wish you can do what you wanted to do when you were younger and, you know, when your body needs a break, you need to take breaks. You know, I'm a big believer in learning from people. You know, when I started hiring these people to work with me, I did a lot of research on them. I tried to, you know, see what worked for them and what they've been doing with other people. And I think researching and learning what's going to work best for you is really important. And I think just, you know, loving the sport.

Like if you don't love it, you're not going to do well, you know. And believing in what your coach, the story that your coach has said for you. And I think I'm learning that with my kids now as a coach, you know, letting them learn how to believe in you and what your story is for them. I want to, I have a lot of questions about the coaching part, but I want to kind of put a pin in that for now. Okay. I'm still thinking about you. I don't know. I know, you want to know, like, how I did it.

I, you know, honestly, I just, it's, it's hard to explain. Like, I just, I'm so competitive. And once I'm in, like, I'm all in and I'm going to do whatever I can to be the best I can be. And, you know, I mean, it was rough for me because I had people making accusations and assinuations, oh, she must be like taking drugs. There's no way a 41-year-old can be doing this. And, you know, my philosophy is if Jack Nicholas can win a master's at 46 and Nolan Ryan can hit a no hitter at 44, why can't a 41-year-old mom make an Olympic team? And so, you know, I immediately, when that talk started to happen, I went to Usada, the U.S. Antidobie agency, like, look, what can I do? Like, how can I prove people that I'm doing this the right way?

And, you know, it was hard hearing like all the whispers and stuff, but they came up with in January of 08, so six months before trials, they came up with a, sort of intricate, very intricate drug testing program. And they took about two athletes to me sports. So it was me and Phelps who, and they didn't really talk about it either, but they took 38 vials of blood from us within a couple of weeks and got a baseline and started testing us randomly and doing drug tests. A biological passport. Exactly.

And people don't know that I did that, but I wanted to be a part of something so I can just prove that I was doing this the right way. And I mean, I can't give an exact answer of how I did it, but it's just a passion and love for the sport and trying to do things the right way and hiring the right people to be able to work with me so I can recover and be able to swim fast. When you're 41 and you're at the Olympics in Beijing and you're in the village, I mean, did you have to like room with teenagers and do that deal? Or like, how did that go down? Well, you know Beisle. You didn't hear the story? No, I didn't know.

Oh, my gosh. Was she your roommate? Well, so we get to the village. And, you know, I just assume they're going to put me by myself because I'm, you know, 41 years old. And so they gave me a card. So, okay, you're rooming with Elizabeth Beissel and Allison Schmidt. I'm like, okay, whatever, you know, they're young kids. Maybe they want me to mentor them or anything.

And so I get to the bottom of the dorm and I start to walk up to like the third or fourth floor. And I hear this like screaming and laughing. I'm like, what the heck is this? And I look in there and there's Elizabeth and Alice. And I'm like, oh, I am out, you know? I can't room with like teenagers, like 15 and 17 year old, like I just can. And I said, I'm like, no offense to you guys. You guys are like my kids, but there's, you know, you guys are in a different like headspace than I am and this is your first Olympic Games and I need to have a

room about myself. So they ended up giving me a room to myself. But yeah, initially they had me with a 15 and 17 year old. Yeah. And how did that work like being that much older? Like it's almost like a, you know, weird museum curiosity, you know, for these young kids. But you have all this wisdom. You know, I'm sure, like, they're all like, you know, tell us, you know, what you've learned and discovered. Or are they, you know, or is that, was that not what it was? You know, I mean, it was. There were definitely times that they'd come up to you, but I'll never forget specifically in 2000. We were at our training camp. And I think, okay, I'm 33. Like, hopefully the young kids want to come up to me and ask me stuff. And I get this, like, knock on my door. I'm like,

hey, what's up? Like, you know, Derry, I want to ask you some questions. I'm like, great, come in. you know, and the girls come in and they have this, like, cosmopolitan magazine and they're like, hey, in here it says that, you know, they give condoms out at the Olympic Village. Is that true? I'm like, that's what you guys want to know if they give, like, condoms out at the Olympic Village. And they're like, yeah. Of course that's what they want to know. Yeah. And I'm like, yeah, they do. Okay, get out, you know, or whatever. It was just, you know, but, but, you know, you have to remember that when you get to the Olympic Games, you're that great of an athlete that you sort of know what to do. you're there. You know, there are definitely some younger kids on the team that I try to mentor

a little bit and, you know, I really enjoy that. I, even if they're not Americans, I'd have other, like, other athletes come up to me and say, how did you do this? And like, what did you do for your weight training? And, you know, which was really cool. A few athletes would do that. But, you know, it's, you're already there and you kind of know what you're doing. You don't want to mess with what you already have done, I guess. I think the biggest thing is just like what to expect when you get to the Olympic Village and gets to the Olympic Games. Being this insanely competitive person, like A plus plus, you know, sort of like type A plus plus plus, is that like, does that make it?

Like, are you competing at everything all the time with everybody? Everything is that like a challenge for your friendships? Yeah, it's, like how does that work? I'm a lot more like mellow about it, but inside it just boils and say, what is the motivation? Is it like to be the best? Is it to beat other people? Is it just like, you know, I want to master. all things. Like, where is that coming from? I think it's like to in my blood. Like,

you have nothing to prove. No, I don't. But like, like, here's a perfect example. So one of the things I like to do with my college teams, I like to take each class out. And so I took the freshman out to do something fun. And I'm like, hey, we're going to go go card. And they're like, awesome. So the freshman were like talking smack in the car as I was, you know, driving them there like, oh, this is going to be great. We're going to like, haul ass. And this is that. I'm like, okay, you know, I'm just like sitting there driving in the car, you know, whatever. And we get there. And the minute my helmet's on and the goggles are on, I get in that car, I'm like, screw everyone. And I'm like, you know, and these poor little freshmen, like, I'm just like whipping them in

the wall and you hear no bumping on the thing. And I'm like, I don't care, you know, in every lap, like I had to win. And I, and it was like, you know, they're 18, who cares, you know, but it's like this blood boils in me where I have to win. No, I can't help it. And I felt, and they were like walking with their, especially the boys, they were kind of walking with their tail between their legs. I'm like, I'm sorry, you know. Did they know that you had won the Long Beach Grand Prix? I think they looked it up afterwards. But you know what you're doing behind the wheel.

Well, like you were in a race, so that's not fair, you know? And I'm like, okay. Oh, my God. Yeah, I'm very competitive. There's no off switch, is there? No, there really isn't. So here you are, we're the same age. And, you know, on top of like, you know, the comeback story and all the Olympic stuff and the medals and blah, blah, blah.

You just might be like the fittest, 57, 58 year, I don't know how old you, like, 58 year old, like, not woman, but like person in the world. Like, you're insanely fit in these videos that you share on Instagram with your workouts and like the focus and the dedication and the consistency that, like, setting aside like intentional recovery, like there's no days off. I don't know. How does that work? How does that work?

How does that work? But are you the person who's like on the plane, you know, getting up every 20 minutes to like do burpees and stuff? Let me tell you. Do lunges down the house? It's funny. I just posted something about that. Like I said, there's no way I'm going to last 13 and a half hours from Boston to Japan, you know, without doing some kind of lunges or something in the aisle. No, I like, I think I was like that a lot younger. I don't think I'm like that as much anymore. I do, you need to remember, like we trained what like four to six hours a day. Like it was insane. So to be. to do a workout every day that's like 45 minute long, 45 minutes long, I don't think that that's that bad, you know? So I'm going from something where it was my whole entire life to something where it's just like 45 minutes to an hour out of my day. But there's something about, like this morning I was up at 6 a.m.

And I went to the hotel gym to work out just because it wakes me up. It, you know, sort of releases like any kind of tension I have. It just starts my day off where I just feel great the rest of the day. I get a workout in. Is there a strict regimen or routine, like setting aside travel, like when you're just at home, that are, what are like the non-negotiables and what are the kind of things that you mix in some flexibility? Because you're like a group fitness person also.

Like, you do all kinds of stuff. You know, I do, I like to do stuff on my own, but I, you got to remember, like, I've been coached my whole life. So to have someone tell me what to do is much easier than for me to go to the gym and get in a habit of doing the same things over and over, which I think a lot of people do. You know, like they'll do a work and like, oh, this is great and they'll just keep doing it

and do it and you get to a point with your plateau and you're not gonna, you're not gonna see changes in your body anymore. And so, you know, for me, I like someone like getting on my ass and saying, hey, like you're not doing this right or you're not, you know, I thrive on that kind of stuff rather just going to the gym of myself and doing something. And what is, what are the differences now

versus like 41, like setting a, side like being, you know, like, like competitive at the elite level. Like in terms of how you have to approach your recovery, your body, your strength training, like what is, what have you discovered like works and what have you had to let go of or like adapt? Like I'm looking for like, I want to know, you know, this is from the fellow Gen Xers out there. Like I, you know, like I'm coming off spinal fusion surgery. Oh, wow. I'm really like, I can't do anything, you know, and I'm just looking at my body decompose in real time and just, and thinking about like the road back

to some degree of, you know, some modicum of fitness. And I know how difficult, you know, how that's harder now than it used to be. Like, you can't just bounce back in the way that. It's brutal. Yeah. It really is brutal and you have to know that like, I feel like when you have to take time off or you have a surgery like you had,

you lose muscle a lot quicker than you used to. And it takes a lot longer to be able to put it back on again. And I think that's the biggest obstacle I think I've seen as I've gotten older. You know, I have starting a little loose skin in places and stuff that, you know, there's nothing you can do about your aging. But, you know, as long as I can continue to work out, like if there's something that you can do that, you know, post-surgery that maybe doesn't include your back or your spine, you're doing lower body or like, I would always find things to do when I, after I've had many surgeries. So after I'd have a surgery,

Like, if I had knee surgery, I would, you know, put one foot on top of the other and do pushups where I wasn't using that leg, you know? Like, there was always things I would try to do to take place of not being able to do something because of an injury or something else that happened. So I always find that there's no excuses. I mean, I had pneumonia for like two and a half weeks, so I had to take like a week off because I was literally like on my ass. But there was a week and a half of having pneumonia. Yeah, I was like, I think my head was. was like spinning, but, you know, you have to listen to your body, but a lot of people will make excuses because something's hurt

or, you know, you don't have enough time, but you can always make time to work out. It's easier to stay in shape than to get in shape. Yes, 100%. Yeah. What's the worst shape that you've ever been in? Like how, what's the most that you've ever let it go? It's like almost nothing probably.

Well, I'll let you know when I get to that. See, like that's what I was looking for. Today's episode is brought to you by Broca. You know, it's funny. We don't often think of eyewear as performance gear until it starts to get in the way. And if you're like me, somebody who has contended with eyesight impairment my entire life, it's a very real thing without a real solution for athletes. I cannot tell you how many times I've been mid-run, constantly shoving my glasses back up my nose,

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Now, you might know this guy as the founder and CEO of Rivian. He's certainly that, but he's really so much more. He's one of those rare people who actually walks the walk. I've watched him over many years, and I know him to be this incredibly deep, deeply committed person, committed to preserving wild spaces, while also inspiring people to explore responsibly. And that's basically Rivian in a nutshell. Their mission, keep the world adventurous forever, comes from this understanding that adventure and a healthy planet, these are not separate things. They're the same thing.

Here's what gets me. Every generation deserves wild places to roam, to climb higher, to run farther, to be changed by the journey. But obviously, that's only possible if we're not destroying those places in the process of getting there. So, yeah, Rivian builds electric vehicles, but really, they're building something bigger. Momentum toward a future where exploration does not come at the expense of nature, but actually inspires us to protect it. It's like, why create the ultimate adventure vehicle if we're not protecting the adventures themselves? And that's why I'm so proud to align forces in partnership with Rivian. This isn't just about transportation.

It's about building a world worth exploring for our kids, for their kids, and for generations to come. You strike me as a very devoted parent. How old is your daughter? She's 19. 19. Like extremely attentive, you know, caring and loving parent. But how does the whole competitive thing work with? you know, raising a child. Like, how does that not spill over, you know, in sort of toxic ways?

Well, the minute she turned 18, then it was anyone's game. Okay. Like, are you competing with her, you mean? Or what does that mean? Well, she would, like, race me to the kitchen. I'm like, oh, my God, she's me, you know? She started to, like, be like that a little bit, you know, but the thing is, is that, like, I know exactly what she's thinking because I was there. And so, like, even going to the elevator, we were in Singapore and we were both kind of walking and then all of a sudden, like, we race to touch the button, you know? And so, and I knew she was going to do that. So, like, we definitely have like competitive moments, but that's sort of also you have to take a step back. And, you know,

but like I said, it's a free for all once you turn 18. It's like, I'll compete with her in anything. Is she an athlete? She used to play lacrosse and then was diagnosed with Crohn's disease, had part of her small intestine taken out. So then she stopped playing lacrosse. So now she is like a sports fanatic nut that knows every sport, every stat. Like, um, she goes to Penn State. And She does photography at their online publication for ice hockey and, you know, wrestling. And I think she's got to sign football this next year. So she's a sports nut, but in a different way now. Yeah, that's cool.

Yeah. So walk me through this decision to get into coaching. You're an athlete, a competitor, your whole life. And then, and never, you know, have kind of showed any interest really in getting involved in coaching. So I think the swimming community was like, what? Oh, wow, like out of the blue. Some weren't excited about it either. Is this like, oh, really? Why is that? I think there was just like jealousy. Well, she's not a USA swimming coach.

You didn't put your dues. You didn't pay your dues because you just went right to a head coaching job instead of working your way up. A lot of people that weren't thrilled with it. That's interesting. Which, you know, is fine. Everyone's entitled to their opinion. You know, I think being coached by some of the best coaches in the world that have a combined total of 18 NCAA titles. They've coached over 50 Olympians and been to over 15 Olympic games gives me a little bit of credibility. You know, I had a little issue and people really took like negatively it when I did a swim-sam interview and said, I didn't even know how to use a stopwatch except when I was younger. I saw that. Yeah.

Yeah. And I got such negative like feedback from that. But it was a joke because my, and I didn't explain that, that my associate head coach, Bruno, had given me like the roles royses of stopwatches. It wasn't just start, stop and reset it. it was and split it was like three buttons and it took like four times to get to a certain thing. And I'm like, oh my God. Like it was just so confusing. But I was just joking around and people like took it the wrong way. But it, I love it. Like one of the reasons why I took it is

because I really want to give back to the sport. I want to teach these kids stuff that I learn, not just in the pool or in the gym, but also like mentally how to deal with something. And I think the most rewarding part of it is knowing that you've made a difference in someone's life. And like the perfect example is I had a kid who was a senior this past year who really struggled at our mid-season meet and he was leading the lanes and everything and decided like, okay, I didn't do well here. And I'm just not going to lead the lane anymore. And I came up to him after a week.

I said, what are you doing? And he said, well, I've come to the conclusion that, you know, we had this past year off and, you know, coming back, like, you know, I just know. I'm not going to make the ACC team. They only let 18 of each gender go. And he said, so I'm just going to enjoy my last year. And I'm like, no, I go, why are you saying you're not going to make the ACC team? He said, I just know, I'm not fast enough after that meet.

I'm like, you have three more months to train. I said, it's not in my head. You're not making it. And so then he started to get back into it. And then after he made the team, did his best time, his best splits ever. And he came up to me after him and thanked me so much and for believing him. But his mom came up to me and said, you know, he's worked with so many coaches. and the fact that you can get through to him mentally

was like the happiest moment for a mom to be able to see that with their child. And just that was like, oh, my God, this is why I'm doing it, you know? Just, and you're not going to reach everyone. You're not going to be able to help everyone. But if there's some kids that you can help and you know you're going to like, you know, leave a lasting imprint on, you know, that's the most satisfying thing to me ever.

And I think the one, it's funny, because when I got interviewed to coach at Boston College, You know, I went through the whole process, you know, three interviews, and one of the questions they asked me was if there was one word that can describe what you want your kids to come out of your program going into the next chapter in their lives, like, what would it be? And I say confidence. Like, that's really what I want to teach my kids is to have the confidence, you know, in the pool that we'll be able to trick it out into other aspects in their lives. Yeah. Translate over the remainder of their life. Yeah. What was it about Boston College? Like, it's a very interesting choice. Like, I think one would expect or imagine that if you were to become interested in coaching, that you would go to Florida or Texas or maybe Stanford or these places where you had trained in the past, you know, real, like, kind of legacy, you know, swimming programs.

I reached out to a couple teams and there wasn't really anything available. And I was like, you know what? Like, as I've talked throughout this interview with you is like, I love challenges and the fact that they had an off year, the year before, they're at the bottom of the ACC, there are kids that I hadn't recruited, you know, there was just so, and there's no scholarships. So I'm like, well, you can't get any better. Like, you have nowhere to go but up with that, you know. And so I wanted to be able to come in and make a difference with these kids, but also somehow start trying to inch up towards the bottom of the ACC. I didn't realize they

didn't have scholarships. Yeah. So it's really hard to. But that's not, that doesn't apply to football. and hockey. No, there's a few sports that don't have scholarships at Boston College. It's a funding issue? Yeah, Title IX funding, like a lot of stuff. Uh-huh. Boston College is a very interesting place.

I think I had, I texted you as much, but like I was just there. I was in Boston for a week. I had some work stuff, but also I had my daughter and she's going into her senior year and I was like, let's go. She's a California kid. She's never seen the East Coast, you know, kind of college thing.

And I was like, all right, well, we'll just, we'll go, we'll go, like, do some tours, right? And the first one was Boston College, which was kind of like a mindblower, you know, because it's just nothing like you would imagine, like growing up in, in Los Angeles. It's sort of like the, you know, the, everything you imagine, kind of like an upper tier, like really good, you know, east, like northeast, you know, kind of college, you know, university would look like with the, with the impeccably manicured lawns and the, you know, all the Harry Potter, you know, library and all that kind of stuff.

Yeah. But it's, it's curious because it's kind of a small college, but it's also kind of a university, and it has these amazing sports facilities and sports programs. Like it's, isn't it like the women's hockey team? Like they're one in two A's or champion? Yeah, they're lacrosse. One NCAA is. And like, you know, we're old enough to remember Doug Flutie and like all of that, right?

Right, right. The statue's right in there in front, yeah. And the whole kind of like Jesuit thing, which is a very interesting, you know, kind of philosophical approach to education that I quite like. It was funny because my daughter was like, you know, like what is happening here? You know, anyway, she's got like a punk rock t-shirt on and Doc Martins or whatever. And there's like a lot of guys with like pop collars and, you know, lacrossex or whatever. Yeah. So, but it was cool. And I had completely spaced that you were the coach there for some reason. And otherwise, I would have definitely, you know, kind of like pinged you and would have loved to have, like, you know, seen you and gotten like an insider's view of what's going on over there.

But in terms of its swimming program, it's not like, we're not talking about like Auburn or like these other places that you hear about when you hear about NC2A swimming. Yeah, like I said, I think it's just, it was the challenge of it. And, you know, they took a chance on me to come in and make a change with this program, change a team culture. we ended up having 100 best times ever last year. So we did really well. Now you get to recruit. Yeah, I have my first recruiting class coming in in a few weeks. And, you know, I'm going out to junior nationals to do some recruiting.

And yeah, it's a lot. But, you know, it's funny because I dropped my daughter off at Penn State last August on a Friday. And I'm like, oh, empty nestor, you know, it's going to be so quiet. And then like three days later on a Monday, school starts, I inherit 54 kids. So it was, I had a three day empty nest. Yeah, empty nest. I had three days of empty nesting that it was like. Is it like Friday night lights coach Taylor where they're like knocking on your door,

you know, with some like crisis in the middle of the night because something happened? I do leave my phone on, my school phone, work phone on in case there's an emergency. But, you know, we have our little ups and downs and stuff, typical like, you know, college stuff that happens, but nothing outrageous or crazy. But, you know, you got to remember I'm dealing with 54 different personalities. So that's what Richard Quick comes into my head. Like, okay, like, how do you think this person deals with this? And, you know, so there were, it was definitely a little bit to get used to. And also just knowing who these kids were because I didn't recruit them. So I took screenshots of all their Instagram like profiles. So I knew who was who

when I got there because I didn't know names. And, you know, with the caps, they didn't have the names on the caps and they're swimming and I'm looking at my associate head coach Bruno. I'm like, do you know who this is like I have no idea, you know? And so we're like, hey, you like your elbow has to do this. So, you know, we didn't know names for like two, three weeks. So that was hard too. You have worked with so many of the world's greatest coaches over the years. So I, you know, obviously you have an appreciation for for great coaching. But what is it about coaching that maybe you fail to appreciate before, you know, having to actually do it yourself? I'm sure there's a lot of things that you discovered and learned about this world that

maybe you took for granted or didn't quite fully understand. I think there's a couple of things. Number one, on the college level, I didn't know how much administrative work you had to do. I don't have assistants or, I mean, like, like administrative assistance. Like I have Coach Bruno and Coach Chris, and that's it. And Chris is a volunteer assistant. And so, and we have now, this year now we have like 48 kids. And so after like two weeks, my sports administrator comes up to me.

He's like, you know, when I hired you, I really underestimated how little you know about administrative work. I'm like, I had an agent. Like, I don't know what you want from me. Like, I don't know anything. And so there's all these different platforms. You have to log like every phone call, every email that you make with a recruit. You have to put on a week ahead of time what the schedule is for the kids. And if you change it the day before, you're not allowed to do that.

Like you have to give them 24 hours. There are so many things. Like, you were only allowed to coach 20 hours a week, which, God, I wish we had that when we were, you know, swimming in college. Like, there's just so many different things that I didn't know about. I think from a different perspective, aside from the administrative stuff, you know, being able to watch all your, like, if you're having a dual meet, obviously, it's an eight lane pool. You have four summers you're watching. And you have to be able to watch, like, everything that's going on and maybe one so far ahead than the other. and you're trying to, so they come up to you afterwards,

you're like, okay, what did I do wrong or what I need to work on? And that's a lot to be able to try to, you know, watch everyone and put into words, you know, what maybe someone needs to improve on in their races and stuff. So that was, I was, I think, very appreciative of how my coaches handled that out of all the years that I swam. And then also just like, I guess, figuring out what works for everyone, you know, like as we've talked about, like everyone's built differently.

And, you know, what may work for one sprinter may not work for another sprinter. And so you have to really listen, watch, and learn what works for everyone and, you know, make some switches as you're going and not just go off, you know, your workout. Like, you know, once your workouts up, that's not just it. You may have to make changes in it. And I'm usually like creature of habit. Okay, it's up. That's what you're doing. But you have to go with the flow.

It's a challenging equation to solve when there's so many people. I mean, you have to be on some level of psychologist. You have to understand who these people are, what makes them tick, how to communicate with them, how to really connect with them in a meaningful way. You have to be kind of a preacher, a cheerleader, to get them riled up and excited. And then in the college context,

you also have to be a politician, you know, for these administrative reasons. I'm sure there's lots of personalities that you have to navigate, and everybody has different agendas and stuff like that, which makes it all the more delicate. My sports administrator, my boss has sat me down numerous times and said, okay, maybe you can approach this like a little bit differently when you do this.

And I'm like, you know, thank God for you because you could just yell at me, you know, but you sit me down and talk very calmly to me about. Strategies for effective. Yes, of how to approach different because, you know, swimming, you know, just as a sport has kind of been at the bottom at, you know, Boston College. and now, you know, I think there's a lot of enthusiasm and, you know, I don't want to say it's been in the bottom, you know, all the time, but it's just, you know, it's a sport that we have to sort of fight for a little bit. I remember when we first got there, you know, the trainer was like,

hey, you know, you guys, we have the training room. Like, oh, we can go in, like the kids didn't even go in the training room before. I'm like, you never use a training room? Like, we have recovery and massages and cupping and kneeling. Because they're like second class citizens or something like that compared to other sports. No, but it's not. But it's not. Boston College's fault, I think maybe the coaches didn't know that it was there. Like, I'm always fighting for them and making sure that they're getting everything that everyone else is getting, you know? And it, I think it was a process, but it wasn't necessarily Boston College. It was that the kids didn't know. And so I had to say, hey, listen, like, you have all

these, you know, availability for you to be able to, like, use a training room or go, you know, to the sports psychologist or do, you know, whatever you guys need, you know, you need to take advantage of it. And so that's something that's a little bit new, I think, for the swimmers, they didn't really realize or know that they can go in there and do that. But it's got to be exciting for Boston College to have, I mean, you have to be the most decorated coach, you know, at the university by a long shot, right? So there has to be some buzz and some, at a minimum, like, curiosity around, you know, you just finished, you finish your first year, you're about to start your second year there. Like, when it came to the dual meets, just like, oh, we need to go

see what's going on over here. Like, you know, we have Derr Torres now. What's happening? Well, you know, it's funny because our first season, we didn't have a schedule when I got hired. And I got hired like maybe a month and a half before school started. And I was, and so when I got the job, I'm like, hey, what should I do first? He's like, get a schedule.

I'm like, okay, so do you have someone who has like numbers or like the teams that he's like, no, it's all you. And I'm like, oh, my God. So I was like cold calling like coaches. And I'm like, hey, can you put us on your schedule? Like, yeah, I didn't know what to do. And so our first year, like scheduling mean like dual meets? Yeah.

Like there weren't any scheduled meets. There was nothing. And like it's the coach's responsibility to set that up. Yeah. Oh, that's weird. I would have never thought that. I had to do that. And I'm like, you know, so I'm reaching out to all these schools and they already had their schedule like a year in advance.

So we only had one home meet last year against BU and that was it. So this year we have a couple more and we're adding more as we go go along. And we're adding a lot tougher teams too. as our schedule progresses and the years progress. But yeah, so I don't really know. I mean, there were a lot of people that showed up for that first meet, which was great. But hopefully we'll get more buzz and, you know, get sort of get it going. But I'm super excited about our incoming class that's coming.

I think it's going to be great, like great meshing with the team now. And just the attitude of these kids, they're young, they're hungry. They want us from fast. They want to train hard. So I think it's going to really just, you know, make it sort of like a domino effect on my team. How many NC2A Division I head swimming coaches are there that are women right now? You know what?

It's funny because I reached out to Mel before I got hired so I could throw that in there in my interview, you know, and he wasn't 100% sure, but I... Mel Stewart? Yeah, Mel Stewart because he has all the stats on everything, you know? And so, you know, I reached out to him and he gave me a few names, but there's definitely under 10. I can't think of like 10 head coached. I mean, the one that sticks out of my mind, what's her name? Tara. Terry McEver. She's no longer at Cal. She's like the legend, but she's not, she's no longer coaching, right? Yeah, she's not at Cal. So there are female coaches that coach

women, but I don't know how many. Yeah, but not full programs like you're coaching the men and the women. Yeah. Yeah. Well, hopefully this is, you're disrupting things again. I know. You can't help There is, I'm curious around a sensitive issue. As we both know, like USA swimming has a little bit of a, you know, checkered past when it comes to coaching abuse. And, you know, I feel like you're somebody with a very strong parental instinct. Like, how do you think about, you know, that checkered past, what's being done to course correct it? Like, I don't even know, like, what the changes are, what that looks like right now. know, like, there was a lot of bad stuff for a while and, and maybe not the best strategy

in, in, in, like, dealing with it and resolving it and creating kind of a safer system. Oh, USA somebody is doing an awesome job now of creating a safer system. They have, for coaches online, you have to pass their safe sport, you know, tests. You're not allowed on deck unless you have that and you pass them, done background checks and stuff. So, you know, it's, it's a lot more intricate than it was back. They didn't really have, I think, a system back when we were swimming. But I mean, I've gotten calls about coaches from like way back when, hey, this never happened to you. And so they're doing their due diligence and doing what they're supposed to do to try to keep the sports safe. So it's a lot different now than it was back in the day. And, you know, if my daughter was a swimmer, I'd feel

very comfortable with her being on a team, yeah. But meaning like they're still sort of investigating things had happened a very, very long time ago. Yeah. Yeah. Wow. That's good to hear. Yeah. Yeah, because it, you know, there was a period there where it wasn't so great.

No, it wasn't. And it's a lot different. Now things are changing. Yeah. For sure, for the better. I want to get back to like Gen X fitness. I'm going to show you my abs already. I mean, yeah.

Like, well, they're like, they're like, you know, they're all time. We all know what you're doing, Dara. And I'm thinking of the person, you know, who's kind of in our general age range who, you know, maybe has had a history with fitness and has let it go a little bit. What in your experience have, you know, because you do all these different, you know, you know, aren't you like a co-owner and some bar studios and stuff like that

and like Pilates and like all these group fitnesses and bands and all kinds of stuff? Like what have you found? And these things are always changing, you know what I mean? What have you found like effective or like a kind of, oh, like maybe you should try this? This is like really cool and people aren't talking about it. Or was it just basic foundational boring stuff? You know, we teased about me taking group classes and stuff, but there's something about having people next to you to be motivating,

but also not feel intimidated. Like a lot of times you go to these classes and, you know, you may not have never tried it before. But, you know, it's not about what someone else thinks is about you and doing the workout. And so what motivates me is having someone tell you, me what to do. You know, I like, I like to mix it up. I think doing, you know, people get in a rut we talked about earlier of doing the same thing over and over again or they like that, but you need to mix up a little bit, even mix up what you're doing. So, for example, like I'll do

solid core three days a week, which is Pilates on steroids, basically. It's like a crazy workout, but they start with beginner classes if you want to learn how to do it, but it works your overall body, especially your core. Like, it's crazy how much it works your core. but they do different muscle groups each day. It varies what they want to do. That's a great 45, 50, actually a 50-minute workout. I take boxing classes at rumble boxing, which is a lot of fun. I actually have my kids.

We go, my team, and we'll do rumbo boxing workouts instead of dry land just to mix it up a little bit. It's great. Wow. That has to be the only collegiate swimming program that is like going to a boxing class. It's fun. You have to mix up with the kids. you know, it's really about, you know, you have your academics, Boston College is 12% accepted rates to get in. You have your training. You have to mix it up a little bit. And as you know, like it gets very born and monotonous. And, you know, I think it's just fun to do some

different things. So yeah, so Roma boxing is a lot of fun. It's bags on one side, a bench with weights on the other side and you keep switching, doing rounds and switching and stuff. And they play loud music. And I love that. I'll go and work out at our facility at Boston College. I take spin classes, you know, I just, to me, it's, again, about mixing it up to make it fun because it gets really boring after a while. But, you know, you talk about a lot of Gen Xers, like, how, you know, we might have already worked out, but now we've kind of, like, slacking a little bit. There's also people that haven't really worked out a lot at all in their lives.

And it's that intimidation practice, the intimidation, you know, notion of, like, I'm too intimidated to go to a gym. I've never done this. but, you know, hire a trainer just for once, learn how to do the moves, or, you know, there's so many, like, group classes that are less expensive than going in, you know, trying to do private lessons if you don't have, you can't afford it or whatever to have the money. There's different ways you can work out. If you work, you know, a building that has stairs, take stairs.

You know, that would be great to do, like, when you're coming in out of the building. If you're at home or stay at home mom, like take cans of food and do biceps, do like, you know, arm lifts like there's so many things that you can do to work out but don't worry about other people like don't worry about how someone else looks or whatever it's about yourself and being in the zone and doing what's best for you because eventually you will get there you know but there is always that intimidating factor that you know people is a lot a reason why people don't want to go to the gym yeah it's it's scary to go to the gym when you're out of shape right and even scarier to put yourself in a group fitness class where, you know, kind of there's, there's a, everybody's measuring

themselves against each other. Like, it just, that, it, that, like, that's a dial click. But everyone started once at some point. So you have to remember that. It's hard, it's hard to, like, get out of that, you know, that, that kind of thing. When was the last time you got up on the blocks and timed yourself for a 50 freestyle? I think what I, probably. Like, like three days ago? No, no, no, no. Probably when I did master's at, at, at, at Harvard, when I lived there from 2012 to 2016 probably but oh really so it had oh come on you don't like every once in a while be like let's see what I can throw down never you never have your kids like here you take the you take the stopwatch I don't know how to work and like time me they want to they want me to go out that's it you know and there's it's

funny because there's sometimes when they'll be doing someone I'm like God I can even do that and they're like no you can't coach and then like they'll leave and then I'll get in the pool and I say okay like I'll say the life bread hey you got to film this like after they're gone you don't want you don't want them to see no well they're going to listen to this so now they know. So you guys next, you're going to be, by the time you hear this, you're probably back in school, like, you know, maybe like hide in the corners or whatever after practice. I don't know. So you do, so you quietly, secretly, like, you know, like, I knew it. You're too competitive not to. I am too competitive. So here's the thing, like, when are you going to go back

to Masters Nationals and like just wipe the record books clean for your age group? Or is that not interesting because it's not hard enough for you. No, it's not that. It's just that I, well, you should know, like most swimmers, and you talked about this earlier, like once you're done swimming like, that's it. Like, you really have no desire to do it again. Yeah, but that's not you. I know, but I haven't gotten to that point yet where I mean, I started to get in a little bit this year after like, once the kids were out of the pool, I'm like, okay, I'm going to get in, like, you know, swim a little bit. But I don't know. Like I, I mean, if it was an outdoor pool on 80 degrees out, that might be a little bit different. But, you know, being indoors and it's cold

and, you know, I don't know. But here's the thing. Here's what I think you should do. What should I do, Rich? Work out like a maniac, but like never get in the pool. Like, do all your Pilates and Corps and spin and like boxing and whatever and like just don't even get wet once. And then just show up at Masters Nationals and get up on the blocks and some of 50 freestyle and see what happens. Oh my gosh.

I think you would be just fine. Yeah, I don't know. I would even make it more fun. Well, we'll see. We'll see. We'll see. Our culture right now is obsessed with longevity. Like there's all these breakthroughs in longevity science

and there's a lot of galaxy brains out there talking about, you know, lifespan extension and reaching escape velocity and we're going to be able to, you know, repair ourselves and live forever and all this sort of stuff. And, you know, these are people who are kind of out-of-the-box thinkers and disruptors like yourself, but also like, it's like, all right, is this, like how much of this is coming from a place of fear rather than like really kind of like engaging with life and, you know, are those 100 supplements that you're taking every

day really doing anything? And when I try to make sense of, of this conversation and like what's real and what's kind of like projection, I look to the people who are actually, you know, thriving and vital, you know, in their later years. And you're certainly one example of that. So in this conversation around longevity and health span extension, like what, setting aside, like, fitness routines, like, what are your other practices that you believe have been important in contributing to, like, you know, remaining vital and young and energetic? I don't know. I guess I'd take care of myself. Like, I'd take care of my skin. I'd take care of my hair, like, all that stuff.

But honestly, I eat just normally. Like, you guys gave me a menu before we started taping and they're like, oh, yeah. here's some stuff, it's all vegan, it's all this. I'm like, oh, I go, this is so healthy, you know, and I eat healthy stuff, but I also don't deprive myself of things. So, you know, I think that's where I got in trouble when I had an eating disorder is depriving myself of food to the point where then you want it so badly after a while that you eat a lot more than you should. So, you know, I just, I eat my fruits and vegetables. I, you know, try to eat healthy, but I also have my snacks that I eat sometimes and we'll have dessert every now and then.

And like last night I had two scoops of ice cream. You know, I just, I don't know. I just try to enjoy life, you know, and, you know, do the things I need to do to make myself healthy, but also not deprived so much where you're just always in a state of wanting something and, you know, just being calm about it. Having a balanced healthy approach to things amidst your very out of balance competitiveness that keeps you on the edge. That makes up for it now. The eating disorder thing, I mean, that was, was that back like during the University of Florida days or like, but it span, it went on for a while though, right?

Like what was, what was happening there? So my freshman year, weight was a big issue, as you know, like coaches were very much into being lean and fit and, you know, I, my body was changing. I was becoming a woman and it just wasn't where I think my coach wanted. it to be and you know he was a little bit of a stickler for weighing us every week and seeing you know if we he wants us at a certain weight and every couple every week we have to lose a couple pounds and it just wasn't happening and someone introduced me to binging and purging and purging and one thing went to another and it became like an addictive thing and so I had it for about five years but then

you don't just get over you get over the physical part of it but then there's the mental aspect of you know still having some cravings for stuff and like do I do this or don't or how do I or being intimidated of certain foods because that's what you are binging and purging and you don't want to get heavy if you do that. And so really, I've struggled for years with that. And then, I mean, I had my disorder in, I started in 85 and then it went through until about like 91. And then after that, I didn't do the physical part of it, but I was still mentally sort

of dealing with it. And when I got to swim with Richard Quick, he was like, listen, I know you had an eating disorder. I want you to learn about the Atkins diet and the protein and how you, you know, you can like mix things and maybe, you know, not have as much bread, but you have more protein. And, you know, so he kind of taught me how to re-eat again. And I finally got over my fear of foods, which took a long time. The eating disorder thing is trickier to understand with the elite athlete because there is that, like, hey, I have to be at a certain way, you know, to perform at my best.

And oftentimes there's a coach who's, like, reinforcing that. But fundamentally, like, and for that, the average person who's, you know, suffers for that it's it's it's it's an affliction of of of trying to exert control over your life when your life feels out of control like this is something that makes me feel like I have agency or whatever and I'm just curious like how does you know how did that work with you like when you try to make sense of like why you were doing this to yourself like because you were young you were like very successful at a young age you kind of moved away from home like there is I would imagine there's some disorientation you know with trying to make sense of that work

and kind of being this person who was shouldering a lot of expectations and trying to live up to those expectations. Yeah, well, I think for me, I felt more out of control because I didn't have control out of it. Like, it became sort of an addiction and it just like, I just kept doing it and doing the point where it was almost like a chemical thing that I couldn't stop. But, you know, I think the hardest thing is for my coach. And I don't blame him because he didn't force me to do anything, you know. but his philosophy is the more intimidating you look on the starting blocks,

the more intimidated your competitors will feel. And so he just wanted us to look lean and strong. And there's no rhyme or reason about how much weight we should lose or what we should weigh. But for me, it was, I didn't have control over it. I mean, some people, it's a control of thing feeling they're in control of their body, but I was like out of control with it. And it was a really dark time for me and a,

you know, number of years that I went through and it's very secretive. And, you know, you don't want people to know about it because then they'll think badly of you. And there were just so many components to it that, you know, really put me in a, I want to say almost like a depression. And it took a while to come out of it. And I learned a lot from it from it and I've been able to talk to younger kids and even like women and men who are going through it and try to help them a little bit. But for me, it was about how I looked and wanting to, you know, look a certain way. So I looked intimidating on the starting blocks. How did you get out of it? So what happened was, is I moved to New York after I was done with college. And my mom kept saying, oh, you haven't

had a physical in a while. I think she knew, like, something, she knew for sure something was going on. And so I think she wanted me to just go talk to the doctor. So I went and got a physical. And at the end, she's like, oh, I want to ask you like a bunch of questions. We always do this with all the patients and I'm like okay and which I've never had done after that but um yes and so she asked me a whole bunch of questions and one of them was like have you ever binge and purge I'm like no you know and so then I left the office and I felt so bad for lying I called her back I said hey like I do binge and purge and you know I don't know what to do about it or whatever and so she set me up with a psychiatrist to go talk to about it and slowly I started to like I mean there I think there are other

factors that, you know, with having low self-esteem about certain situations that might have happened in my life and stuff, you know, it really helps me sort of dig myself out of it and not become so addictive. I may get the point when I walk by a window and see something in a New York City window and be like, oh, God, it looks so good and go in and then binge and purge because I ate too much of it, you know. And so it was a very long process to get over, but I think initially going to, you know, talk to the psychiatrist and sort of get me on the rock I tried to deal with the emotional part of it really helped. Yeah, I mean, it's good.

You, like, called yourself out. You were like, it's so funny. We want to lie to our therapists and our psychologists. Yeah. It's like, these are the people that are here to help us. Yeah, and then I'm like, well, it's not going to help if I don't. Yeah, I know, I know. But still, it's like, yeah, I want them to think well of us.

Yeah, exactly. You know, it's crazy. Yeah. Your big thing is that, like, nobody should put an age limit on their dreams. This is part of, like, out-of-the-box thinking. or just kind of like reframing, you know, how we approach our lives. And I wanted to kind of maybe end this with some thoughts about how we think about our dreams, our innate potential that is, you know, remains untapped and how to break through these, you know,

kind of barriers that we erect, especially as we get older, it's like, this is my life and this is what I do. And like, oh, well, maybe I'll do that in the next life or, you know, all of the kind of, just calcification that happens when we get older and then we kind of dismiss dreams that maybe, you know, we're important to us when we're younger. I think one of the things that really motivated me besides the challenge of making a comeback in 08 was the fact that I had so many middle-aged people relying on me to make the Olympic team. And I didn't realize it until I got to Olympic trials and everyone was making such a big deal about what I was doing, that I feel like for me, the most rewarding part was being able to make

the Olympic team to be able to let middle-aged people know that you don't have to put an age limit on your dreams. You don't have to not do something because you're a parent. You know, there are so many things that, you know, I think we are stigmatized because of our age and you never know if you can do it unless you try, you know, is the biggest thing. And, I think that it was so rewarding for me because there's so many people come up to me afterwards and say, oh, like, I never thought I'd be able to do something and you really motivated me to do that.

And that's just, it's not the metals that are rewarding. It's how you touch people's lives. That's so rewarding. And so do you think about legacy in that regard or you're just, I'm on to the next thing. Yeah, I don't think about. I mean, if there was something that I'd want people to remember me by, you know,

down the road is probably being able to stay in the sport for so many years. I think that, and yeah, I guess I think that's probably it. It's just, is if I were to have a legacy, it would be the longevity of being in the sport and doing it at a later age. But I really don't, I don't really think about that. I feel like you're a really important figure

and piece in this evolving story around performance in our later years. And I think we're in this really remarkable era where we are seeing people, you know, just defying all these stereotypes of what's possible. And that goes for like all different kinds of sports. Like I think it's super cool, right? It's totally different than when you made.

And women who are having kids also, like who they think, oh, you wouldn't see that a lot like 20 years ago, you know. So. I think it's fantastic and you're a legend. I really appreciate you coming. Come in here to share with me today. So nice to chat with you and meet you.

I know, it's super cool. And for any of you, B.C. swimmers who are watching and listening and you're still with us, like, you know, it's like, don't let her off the hook. Oh my gosh. I don't think anyone wants to see me on a swimsuit, honestly. I think they, I think that, I think they would very much like to see, you know, what you're capable of. I think you're afraid that you're going to be faster than all of them and what that might do to their psyche. I don't think so.

Yeah. So what can we expect for the BC team? in this upcoming year? You know? More than a couple dual meets, maybe? More than a couple dual meets. I think we're going to have some good showings. Like I said, we have some great kids coming in.

We have our returning kids who are training hard this summer. And, you know, it's just all about rebuilding the program. And it's going to take a little while. So this is one thing I don't have as patience. So this is something I'm really going to have to test my patience with is just give it time. Well, it's exciting. I think it's super fun. So I appreciate you.

Thank you. It was nice to meet you. Yeah, cheers. That's it for today. Thank you for listening. I truly hope you enjoyed the conversation. To learn more about today's guests, including links and resources related to everything discussed today,

visit the episode page at richroll.com, where you can find the entire podcast archive, my books, Finding Ultra, voicing change, and the Plant Power Way. If you'd like to support the podcast, the easiest and most impactful thing you can do is to subscribe to the show on Apple Podcasts, on Spotify, and on YouTube, and leave a review and or comment. And sharing the show or your favorite episode with friends or on social media is, of course, awesome and very helpful. This show just wouldn't be possible without the help of our amazing sponsors who keep this podcast running wild and free. To check out all their amazing offers, head to Richroll.com. slash sponsors. And finally, for podcast updates, special offers on books and other subjects, please subscribe to our newsletter, which you can find on the footer of any page at richroll.com. Today's show was produced and engineered by Jason Camello. The video edition of the podcast was created by Blake Curtis and Morgan McRae with assistance from our creative director, Dan Drake. Content management by Shana Savoy, copywriting by Ben Pryor. And of course,

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Thank you.