The Rich Roll Podcast - On Chasing Dreams & His New Book “Beat The Devil”

Episode Date: December 16, 2013

Third time's a charm. Show favorite Mishka Shubaly returns to the podcast today for round 3 to chat about addiction, sobriety, rock ‘n roll, ultrarunning, relationships, writing, creativity and his fantastic new Kindle Single, Beat The Devil. But mostly we talk about chasing dreams. The inherent force, value & gestalt of a dream. How much you are willing to sacrifice in pursuit of a dream, even when it constantly deludes and eludes you, undermining, derailing and even destroying other important aspects of your life. How to know whether the dream you seek is the right dream. And when — and if — it ever makes sense to abandon a dream that persistently fails to materialize. Mishka and I have a shorthand. A large percentage of our friendship has taken place on microphone, but there is a palpable sense that we have always been friends. And that's because — although our life experiences are very different — our mental & emotional points of reference share powerful common turf. Indeed, Mishka is my brother-from-another-mother; and once again it comes through undeniably in this exchange. Our bond aside, I feel an imperative to share his palpable creative voice. A master of humility, self-deprecation, frailty and fear, his evocative prose is a dagger into the heart we all share — our common condition as human. It's an important voice, worthy of notice and praise. An opinion I harbor not in isolation, but one shared by the literati, including a top editor at The Atlantic who goes so far as to say Mishka is “the voice of our generation”. That phrase gets bandied about all too commonly, but in Mishka's case it's truth. With 4 consecutive Amazon #1 bestsellers ( Shipwrecked*, The Long Run*, Are You Lonesome Tonight?* and Bachelor Number One* ) he is a true master of the short narrative. Now he's back at it. Beat The Devil*– his newest offering — just hit #1 in Amazon's Kindle Singles category yesterday. A deep dive into the downtown New York rock ‘n roll club scene, Beat The Devil* is Mishka's first-hand account of battling ...

Welcome to episode 65 of the Rich Roll Podcast with Mishka Shubali. The Rich Roll Podcast. Hey everybody, Rich Roll here. Welcome back to the Rich Roll Podcast. Thanks for all the great comments on our best of 2013 episode. I really enjoyed re-listening to so many of those interviews and wanted to give a shout out to my son, Tyler, once again, for culling through all of the past year's episodes and pulling out those amazing clips. all of the past year's episodes and pulling out those amazing clips. It was an amazing year for us and we're so proud of the work that we've done and we're so ecstatic that we have you guys out there, this amazing audience that's responding so favorably to our mission, the Plant Power mission, what we're trying to get across here. And we appreciate all the great feedback and comments and all of that. So, so glad we're so excited for what is to come in 2014.

This is just the beginning. I'm committed to this show. I'm committed to the mission. And we got a lot of great stuff in store for you. I am on the final leg of this crazy worldwide little tour that I've been on. If you listened to the last episode, you know that I was recently in Bahrain, as they say it there, Bahrain, not Bahrain, Bahrain, where I gave a keynote speech to the YPO organization there. And then I was in Morocco. I did the same thing in Casablanca, which was incredible. And then I went out to Marrakesh for a day and experienced a different part of Morocco, which was stunning in its beauty and its robust, amazing culture there. Such a blessing and a gift to have this experience to get to travel so much and carry this message. And on my way back, I'm on my way back home, but I stopped

into New York City for a couple days to record a couple podcast episodes and see a few people. Today, it is a Saturday afternoon in New York and it's snowing like crazy which is pretty exciting after being out uh in the desert uh in the middle east i've gone on some uh incredible runs here in the city i love running in new york city i think running in central park is one of my favorite runs anywhere uh it uh it's right up there with any beautiful trail or remote mountain landscape that I've ever been on. There's just something about being in New York City and the vitality and the energy that I really tap into and love and miss. I used to live in New York City and it's just great to be back here and have that kind of experience. And I'm grateful for that. I was supposed to

do an interview with Dr. Frank Lipman today, who is a fellow wellness warrior, a pretty prominent, holistic doctor here in New York City, but he lives outside Manhattan. And because of the snow, he decided not to come into the city today. So I'm going to have to catch him when I return. I'm coming back to New York in February, so I will make sure that that interview happens then. But in the meantime, we've got a great interview today. My friend Mishka Shubali, who you might have heard on the podcast twice, now three times actually actually. He, he, uh, we bonded, uh, when we met, um, when I was in New York last year, I don't know, eight months ago or something like that. We had an amazing conversation. It was one of our most popular episodes. And then when the paperback release of finding ultra came out, I had him back on the podcast to interview me. And, uh, and then he just made a cameo appearance in the 2013 Best Of episode.

And now he's back again. So hopefully you're not maxing out on Mishka. I love him. He is a great guy. And there's just something about when we sit down together, we connect on such an intimate level that we're able to go deep and kind of pull back the covers on each other's experiences. And there's something really special about these conversations that seem to meander, but always kind of pivot around a specific thematic thread, which is, I guess, vulnerability

and authenticity, which are big themes in my book and big things in these podcasts about how you tap into your true purpose and lead a fulfilling, happy existence. And Mishka, if you're not familiar with him or you're brand new to the podcast, he is a fellow recovering alcoholic. He's a fellow ultra runner and he's a fellow writer. So we always have many points of intersection and common interest and things to talk about. And I wanted to have him back on right away because he has a new book out. It's a Kindle single. If you don't know what a Kindle single is, Amazon has this program. It's very unique. It's the only one in the world where they put out digital format, short form narratives in all different kinds of subject matters. And Mishka has kind of become the king of this little fiefdom of writing of short form. And he's really a master of it. His stories are extremely raw. He has an incredible

facility for humility and for allowing himself to be vulnerable, which I find to be very courageous and brave. I butted up against that when I was writing Finding Ultra. And it's a scary thing to do, to lay yourself raw and bare and allow yourself to not look so good in order to kind of evoke some shred of humanity, which is something I think that we can all relate to. But he's got a new one out. His last one was called The Long Run. It was about his experiences as a drug addict and an alcoholic and discovering sobriety and embracing the sober lifestyle and then discovering ultra running and his experiences being a runner. And this one kind of takes off from a similar starting point but goes in a different trajectory. It's called Beat the Devil. starting point, but goes in a different trajectory. It's called Beat the Devil.

And it is about, it is also about his experiences being an alcoholic and what that life is like, that dark, kind of desperate, lonely existence, and then discovering sobriety. But meanwhile, pursuing this dream of rock and roll in New York City. And it's a very raw and revealing take and look at the underbelly of what it's like to try to make it in music in a band in New York City. And it's incredibly descriptive in its sort of episodes of being in these grimy bars and butting up against some of these bands that were unknown and now are huge bands. And that's really interesting for anybody who's into music and likes to hear stories about the sort of pursuit of trying to become a rock star. But more importantly, and what really kind of stood out for me and what spoke to me is this idea of pursuing a dream. you know, how much do you give of yourself to achieve that dream? What do you sacrifice to pursue that dream?

What does that dream mean to you? What does it say about who you are? And at what point do you let go of it if it's not working out? And it's fascinating because at the same time that he's pursuing this dream of rock and roll, he continues to ignore the fact that he has this incredible facility for writing and all these doors are cracking open for him to step into this world of becoming a writer. And he consistently ignores that in pursuit, this blind pursuit of becoming a rock star. It's heartbreaking and it's emotionally raw. And I think on the flip

side of that, it's transcendent. It's beautiful for all its vulnerable truths. And I think it speaks to what it means for all of us to be human, to be frail, to be afraid, and to be hopeful at the same time. So I encourage all of you guys to check it out. You can find it on Amazon. Of course, click through the Amazon banner ad at richroll.com. It's only $1.99 and it's like 50 pages. I read it in like an hour and a half or less. So it's a no brainer. It's less than a coffee at Starbucks. I think that we should support this guy. I know and believe that he is one of the rare true voices of my generation. And I'm not alone in that regard. There's an editor at The Atlantic who champions Mishka and has repeatedly told him that he is an important voice in our cultural dialogue,

one of the most important voices of our generation. And it's incumbent upon me to try to shout from the mountaintops that everybody should tap into what he is trying to say. And there's something quite beautiful about it. And I'm proud and happy to call him my friend and to bring him back onto the show and give him a microphone. We have an amazing conversation today. It's weird because we're close and we talk all the time. And I'm always worried, are we going to run out of things to talk about when we turn the mic on? And then we turn the mic on and then it just goes in a whole different direction that we don't anticipate. And what I love about talking to Mishka is I don't set an agenda. We just start talking and we see where it heads. And that's certainly what happens today. He also has some new music out. We're going to take the show out with

one of his new solo pieces. So that's another treat for you guys. We're brought to you today by recovery.com. I've been in recovery for a long time. It's not hyperbolic to say that I owe everything good in my life to sobriety. And it all began with treatment and experience that I had that quite literally saved my life. And in the many years since, I've in turn helped many suffering addicts and their loved ones find treatment. And with that, I know all too well just how confusing and how overwhelming and how challenging it can be to find the right place and the right level of care, especially because unfortunately, not all treatment resources adhere to ethical practices.

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It's not hyperbolic to say that I owe everything good in my life to sobriety. And it all began with treatment and experience that I had that quite literally saved my life. And in the many years since, I've in turn helped many suffering addicts and their loved ones find treatment. many suffering addicts and their loved ones find treatment. And with that, I know all too well just how confusing and how overwhelming and how challenging it can be to find the right place and the right level of care, especially because, unfortunately, not all treatment resources adhere to ethical practices. It's a real problem, a problem I'm now happy and proud to share has been solved by the people at recovery.com who created an online support portal designed to guide, support and empower you to find the ideal level of behavioral health disorders, including substance use disorders, depression, anxiety,

eating disorders, gambling addictions, and more. Navigating their site is simple. Search by insurance coverage, location, treatment type, you name it. Plus, you can read reviews from former patients to help you decide. Whether you're a busy exec, a parent of a struggling teen, or battling addiction yourself, I feel you. I empathize with you. I really do. And they have treatment options for you. Life in recovery is wonderful, and recovery.com is your partner in starting that journey.

When you or a loved one need help, go to recovery.com and take the first step towards recovery. To find the best treatment option for you or a loved one, again, go to recovery.com. Okay, cool. So Mishka is coming up right now. I also am going to be sitting down later today with what might be the podcast favorite of all time, John Joseph, punk rock icon, Cro-Mags frontman writer. He's got a new book coming out called Meat is for Pussies. It's a re-release of a book that he self-published, but it's going to be coming out this spring from Harper. So it's going to get a wide release.

John is going to blow up huge. And we had a great dinner last night. Mishka, his girlfriend, Lucy, and John and I all went to Candle 79, which is probably the most prominent vegan plant-based restaurant in New York City. It was phenomenal, fantastic. The food there is wonderful. And if you are lucky enough to come to New York City, you've got to check it out. Benet, the general manager there, took care of us. And we had an incredible conversation over incredible plant-based foods. And it was an extraordinary, amazing experience. So I'm sitting down with John later today. We're going to put that up the following week.

Excited about that. All right, everybody, let's just get into it. I'm rambling. Ladies and gentlemen, my friend, writer, recovering addict, recovering alcoholic, ultra runner, musician, the voice of our generation. Enjoy my conversation with Mishka Shubali. You ready to go? Let's do this shit. Dude, are we really going to do this again?

I feel bad that... I feel bad that I'm... It's number three. No, I feel bad that I'm doing this to you and that we're sort of unleashing this on you. You're not doing this to me. Well, you dreamed it. I'm doing this to you and that we're sort of unleashing this on you. You're not doing this to me. Well, you dreamed it. I'm doing this to you.

You dreamed it. I'm here as the physical manifestation of your dream. You created this reality with your dream. I'm just here doing my job. What reality is that? Us about to go, like we're standing at the edge of the dark, abandoned mine shaft,

about to put out our torches and go in to the darkness blind. I know no agenda. Well, you said dreams. Uh, I dreamed it. And I think that's, uh, apropos for today, cause we're going to do a lot of talking about dreaming. Yes. The destructive power. Yeah. The beautiful and destructive power of dreams and dreaming. I hope it doesn't become depressing. Are you going to depress us? I'll do my best. No, thanks for coming back, man.

I mean, usually, I mean, I'm psyched to be sitting here with you. It's awesome, man. It's funny to do it in a hotel room this nice because whenever I'm in a hotel this nice, I always feel like I'm working. Like I should be cleaning up or something. No, I'm just never in a hotel room should be like cleaning up or something. No, I just mean, I I'm just, I'm never in a hotel room. That's this, this is a nice hotel room.

This uncrappy. Yeah. I think I'm going to stay here for a little while. It's pretty good. Um, no, usually like my sort of optimal scenario for the podcast is to not talk to the guests until they walk in and sit down and the mics are hot you know so it's completely fresh and organic but that's not our experience you picked me up at the airport yesterday and we and we drove all the way into the city from jfk and talked the whole time and went straight to dinner and talked all through dinner and then we're like oh shit we should have just and i didn't want a podcast last night because i was so jet lagged from flying from overseas and uh we could have just recorded everything we talked about in the car and that would have been its own podcast i mean it's cool

the nsa has all that information they do yeah they're going to be releasing another version of the podcast yeah in, in the halls of Langley. I tried to swear as much as I could yesterday to get it out of my system for today, but I, I know I'm still going to drop a couple. It's okay. I already,

uh, you know, we broke the seal with that, with, uh, John Joseph. So people are accustomed to it. And,

uh, I'm going to, I'm going to do a podcast with him. I think either tomorrow or the next day, probably tomorrow. So awesome. Yeah. So this is a, uh, my tour tour through new york of repeat guests and uh i'm supposed to do this doctor tomorrow to

dr frank lipman but he doesn't live in the city and and uh it's supposed to snow tomorrow oh really yeah we're supposed to get a whole bunch of snow so if it doesn't he's not coming in so we'll have to see yeah but um good to be back in new york man yeah i you know i've been in california a lot this year and coming back here it's like as soon as you get to the airport you know somebody's elbowing you and like out of the way asshole and i was like oh man it's so good to be back in california everybody's like, ah, no worries, man. Ah, it's cool. You know, peace. And that freaks you out. People are perfectly nice here.

I never had that experience here. I love it here, man. I'm happy to be back. I just went running in the park. And my blood is thin. But I was able to get through the 30-degree temperature. It's like in the 20s today, I think. Yeah, it's cold.

I mean, I left the house for the first time on the way here, which I'm kind of embarrassed about. You've been writing all day? No, man. I've just been writing emails, which is my least favorite form of writing. I'm in the process of doing all this promo shit for the new single,

and I hate promoting, dude. It's your job, man. We were talking about this the other day you got to suit up for that I just yeah I just I despise it people that's what you're doing right here so you're telling me that you you hate me and you hate being here well no this is different because you and I just bust each other's balls for like an hour and that that feels natural but you know when I'm when I'm trying to compose like a hundred and, you know, 140 character blurb about like, you know, what a swell guy I am and what a great writer I am. I just feel like I, you know, such, it just seems like such bullshit. It's kind of contrived. And I think the, um, the sort of dirty little secret of journalism,

especially when you're trying to promote your own work is if you're lucky enough to get solicitations from, you know, magazines or newspapers or blogs or online, whatever, generally what happens is they say, oh, we really, you know, we want to run a piece on you or the book or whatever. And they end up sending you like 10 questions, and then you write the entire article for them, which is good and bad. It's good because you can control exactly how you want it to come out, and you know you won't be misquoted and all that kind of stuff, but at the same time, it's a lot of work, man.

For the record, that chime was you and not me. I know. That was me because I have my iPad out because I'm going to be reading from your new kindle single and i wanted to have it have it here but i didn't turn the volume off it's i i don't mind those like 10 questions things where they there's just sort of like they just give you the same questions you get to answer them because you know the only things i do are like either email stuff where i write it all out or, you know, interviews like this where the audio is going to be up.

Because I, you know, as a writer, I just had so many bad experiences with somebody putting down something that I didn't say or, you know, just getting it wrong, which it sucks to say to be a writer and say I have no confidence in writers. Well, I mean, you know, as you get older, when you're a kid, you think everybody who's a professional is really good at their job. And then you get older and you realize, like, there's a lot of people that are lazy. Yeah, I'm one of them. So you are, yeah.

I know exactly how lazy everybody else is. But I'm excited. The new Kindle single is called Beat the Devil. And this is sort of a follow-up to the long run. Before we get into exactly what it is, what's the backstory and what motivated you to do another Kindle single? that had to be told about my missing years of, you know, being a rock musician, an unknown rock musician. And I never wanted to be a writer. I certainly never wanted to be a runner. And I definitely never wanted to be sober, but I wanted to be. You're all these things that you didn't want to be. Yeah. One thing you wanted to be. Yeah. I i just i wanted to like shred guitar man and that's like the one thing that i can't do well you can no i'm a pretty weak guitar player still i uh for somebody

how many guitars you own now i i've lost count probably like 60 yeah it's disgusting for somebody who claims they can't shred that's a lot lot of guitars, man. I don't play them. You just collect them like Bitcoin or something? Yeah, I should be on hoarders, not on your podcast. They're like stacked up in your hallway. Yeah, it's bad news. So, yeah, I mean, in the long run, you get into your addiction, your alcoholism, and your sort of journey to sobriety and your discovery of running. And then in this, you sort of pick up kind of

contemporaneously, but on a different, I mean, it's more of the past, but it's sort of a different, you take a tangent in a different direction through your sort of drinking and drug use and ultimately your sobriety. But it's a pursuit of a different kind of goal, right? Yeah, I had two sort of lightning strike epiphanies in my life. One was when I was, I don't know, 12 or 13 and I got drunk for the first time. And I was like, oh yeah, this is what I'm going to do for the rest of my life. This is, this is what I'll, this is what I'll be.

But before that I had this epiphany when I was like six where I was just like, I'm going to play guitar. I'm going to get up on stage in front of people and I'm going to play guitar and they're going to laugh and they're going to cheer and it's going to be awesome, you know? So that is sort of, I mean, I describe it as an addiction and that, you know, that was definitely, that was my first high man, rock and roll. Right. You describe in the, in, uh, in the single, can we call it a book? Whatever you want. All right. In the book you, describe in very specific detail that experience of hearing Johnny B. Goode for the first time and kind of what that catalyzed for you. Yeah. And I still, when I think about it now, I still get chills just thinking about that song

and how powerful it was to me. And my roommate's a guitar teacher, and I heard him playing it through three different walls the other day. I could hear just that faint, and I was like, oh, yeah, man. It was like a shark smelling blood in the water. And it was just a tremendously powerful song, and it just spoke to me. And it was clear, like, this is what I was born to do. This is exactly what, you know,

this is it. This is my thing. Right. That switch just got flicked and that's what it was going to be for you. Yeah. I mean, everything else was just out the window. I,

you know, I, um, my dad was a physicist. So for, you know, until I'd heard rock and roll, I was going to be a physicist like my dad or a knife thrower.

Where's that? I wanted to find that part in the book where you were considering as a child what your careers might possibly be. I was just laying out all my options. A mustachioed knife thrower. That's a good line of work. I would still probably be into that now if i could do that i would do that yeah it's better than a fireman right as you said yeah yeah all you know that other stuff just seemed ridiculous and when you're yeah when

you're a kid you don't take into account like what's a you know what's going to support me financially just everything's the same when you're a kid right it's like yeah you you're no kid dreams of being an accountant man like we you know we all have we we have big dreams and people talk about you know you got to follow your dreams you got to chase your dreams and how important that is but what they mean is it's important to have a calendar that says, follow your dreams. I think that they don't really mean for you to follow your dreams. Because if we all followed our dreams, there'd be a lot of knife throwers out there, I think. I think a lot of people would have more interesting careers than they have right now. Yeah. I mean, I think that there's something about that childlike quality when you're young and you haven't been sort of indoctrinated into

the social norms or you haven't been beaten down by society or just plugged into kind of what you're supposed to do, where you're sort of permitted and encouraged to have big dreams and explore your imagination. And somewhere along the line, that just gets eroded. that just gets eroded. Yeah. I think, you know, I do think that people need to be encouraged to, to, to follow their first choice first, whatever you you're passionate about, you should be encouraged to go out and try that. You know, I mean, I have, um, you know, and I was lucky in that I was able to spend enough time and devote enough energy to trying to be a successful rock musician and see just how hard it was and how shitty it was. And then I sort of was able... So it's not something that was unfulfilled.

I don't still romanticize it that much because Cause I know people who are out there doing it and, and like in between tours, they're working at the bar cause they don't have any money. Just to set everything in context. I mean, beat the devil is really your sort of a mini memoir about, uh, living, living in New York city and trying to make it in a band and sort of the underbelly of the New York rock scene and kind of in very, you know, lifelike terms, you really feel like you're part of that scene and what it was, you know, what it was like around all these bands that, you know, some of which made it big and you've named these bands that've all heard of and and some of which didn't and just living in that community and exploring that world yeah the uh the working title was uh fail fail rock and roll that was just about like 15 years of playing rock and roll in new york city

and not getting anywhere you know beat the devil's a better i think that's better it was the name of the band that you were in yeah i thought my editor tooth and nail on it, but I have to, uh, I have to concede defeat on that one. Everybody loves the name. Yeah. It's a, it's the perfect encapsulation of, of what it's all about. And to kind of echo back to how we opened this, um, it really is about dreams. It's about having a dream. It's about pursuing a dream. And it's about how far are you willing to go to see that dream realized? And at what point do you course correct or let it go or move in a different direction? And in certain respects, it's revelatory in that regard. And it's also heartbreaking. You know, it's sort of like the Yang to Anvil's Yang, you know, in certain, in certain, in certain ways. Yeah. I, um, I was, I was thinking about you and, uh, Dean Carnese's this summer when I was writing this, cause you were, uh, pacing him at Badwater and I was thinking about ultra runners and ultra running and

you know ultra endurance events where you know and I thought I mean I thought about like Dean's wife you know and I don't know what their relationship is like but how sometimes your real life gets held hostage to the fiction of a dream. And I think, you know, and that was one of the things that I noticed when I was training really hard is that there was, you know, a lot of things that I didn't do, like a lot of shows that I missed with my band or a lot of phone calls. I didn't return stuff like that because I was out for four or six or eight hours running. And and that was nothing compared to, you know, how I held my life hostage to rock and roll, you know, and that was, that dream was everything that was more important than, than any relationship, more important to my family, more important to my friends, more important to my girlfriend, you know, everything and anything was just that, uh, you know, and, and it's something ethereal too. It's not like, oh, if I get the golden banana or whatever, I'll be satisfied. But it's just, yeah, it's totally an addiction because it's just more and more and more and more, you know. But where do you draw the distinction between an addiction and pursuing something that you're passionate about?

I mean, you're saying that. I mean that you're like, you're saying that rock and roll held your life hostage, but in some ways that, that was, that was your life. You weren't holding your, your life hostage outside of rock and roll. Rock and roll was what you were living. Yeah. Yeah. That's absolutely true. Well, I mean, I think the way that we define any other addiction is, um, you know, is it harming your life? Right. You know, and, and that's the thing is any other addiction is, um, you know, is it harming your life? Right. You know, and, and that's the thing is that I was just, um, you know, I sort of, I'd hollowed out every other aspect of my life just to devote as much resources and time and energy and money as I could to, uh, to touring nonstop on like, you know, six or eight or 10 bucks

a day. And, you know, we're wearing the same pair of jeans from New York to Seattle and back. Yeah. So yeah. What was it? How did you describe what those jeans smelled like when you were talking about that the other day? Like, uh, like a bag of cool ranch Doritos that you had crumbled up and poured a vinegar into or like ammonia. It's just like, it's horrible. So, so yeah. So, you know, why don't you like spin a little yarn a little bit about what the book is about? So I'm not putting words into your mouth. Well, I mean, it basically traces my, you know, my New York history of the bands I was in and, you know, sort of what I was trying to do, starting with a band, uh, come on that I came out here to join without them knowing about it with, uh,

with my old best friend, James. And then when that band broke up, I, you know, I tried to do my solo stuff for a long time and that didn't pan out. And then I joined this band, Beat the Devil. And we got right to the brink of about to be doing something great and then just shit the bed at the last second. And then I joined a band, Fresh Kills, which was my last band with my old friend Zach. And that broke up in March of this year. Right. in March of this year. Right. And sort of the interwoven throughout this is kind of your drunkologue and how you're sort of sinking deeper into, you know, drug and alcohol addiction and ultimately finding sobriety and coming to this realization with fresh kills that you got to pull the plug on this and move in a different direction. Yeah. And, know, ironically the, I mean, I got sober by myself for myself, but it

was the support that I got from my bandmates and fresh kills that enabled me to stay sober. And so, and ironically it was like fresh kills supported me being sober to the extent that fresh kills was no longer as important to me. You know, and sorry, guys. Like, you know, I don't know what to say. Right. But how much do you think that getting sober and kind of gaining some mental clarity over your life played into your decision to change course with your music career? uh, your decision to change course with your music career?

Well, I, I re I really think that for me, I couldn't separate rock and roll from drugs and alcohol. The, you know, the, the well was poisoned, you know, that for me, like it wasn't just getting loud. It was getting fucked up and getting loud and, um, you know, and getting fucked up with my friends and like drinking at practice or whatever, you know what I mean? It was sort of our bowling league and stuff. But then, but then there, there got to be an increasing element of, uh, death woven into that, that at first it, you know, first it was Johnny beode and just music and like

the jams. And then it got to be music and getting messed up. And then it got to be, this will be how, you know, this is how I will die is I will die, you know, in a hotel room with a guitar in one hand and a bottle in the other. Right. So as it progressed, um, you know, where did, where did it become less about the music and more about the sort of party lifestyle? I mean, as a kid, you have this epiphany hearing Johnny be good and, and, and this passion and love for music and this idea of wanting to do that. But also you kind of allude to this at the end when you tell that story about getting up on that platform on the beach. A part of it is just being on stage where eyes are upon you. And that's very different from the purity of the music. So how

much of it became more about showmanship and the lifestyle as opposed to the music itself? I mean, I remain plugged into the music to the very end. I, you know, and none of the bands that I joined are bands that I couldn't defend musically. You know, I mean, there was at no point that I was ever playing with a band that I hated, but I was just in the band for, in the band for the Coke and the whiskey. But it was definitely in, I would have to say it was in Beat the Devil that it became less and less about the music

and more about getting fucked up. And the irony is that that was the best band that you were in. That was the band that was really poised to really do something big. Yeah. I mean, I remember being on tour with them in the middle of the summer. It was like August. And it was a Sunday night in this college town, which a college town in August on a Sunday night is just a recipe for suck city.

You know what I mean? It's like a disastrous show, like waiting to happen. Because there's no students there. There's no school. Yeah. There's no students there. It's a Sunday night. It's August.

Everybody's fucking had it by that point anyway. And we were playing at like midnight and I was like this, this, okay. Everybody ready for open band practice tonight? And by the time we roll in there, the place is packed. Like just wall to wall. It's the second story of this club, The Union, in Athens, Ohio. So it's so hot. When I got up there, I felt like I'd pissed my jeans or something.

I just instantly soaked with sweat. We get up there and the crowd, I mean, the kids are just going crazy. And we, you know, we end up, they, you know, we finish our set and then they, they physically won't let us leave the stage. So we play another song. And then they, again, they physically, you know, until we've played every song that we know and then finally i um we get off the stage i i shamefully have to admit that i did the thing that i would i never do which i took my shirt off because it was just so hot and i get off stage russian roll cliche one after another i'm gonna kill you in this podcast so we get off the stage and I'm walking to the bar and I feel hands on me. And I,

and like I look behind me and there's this blonde with, you know, this chick with long blonde hair down to her butt and like a tiny little yellow, like summer dress. And she's, she ran run her hands like one down my chest and one down my back. And I turn,

turn back to look at her and she makes eye contact with me and just puts her hands on her face and i was like god just kill me now because it's perfect right you know and um you know but i didn't i didn't even like go home with her i just like went went to the bar and i was like give me me one of everything. And I like, you know, fell asleep on somebody's porch or something like that. Or on top of the van. So, you know, I wanted to read a little quote from the book. Uh-oh. Which is early in where you say, not everything that nearly kills you makes you stronger.

Sometimes it just makes you hate yourself for being so easily wounded yet unable to die. It's heartbreaking, man. You said we weren't going to get depressing. No, but let's explore this a little bit. Yeah. I think this is one of the really faulty things with rock and roll is that it's dependent upon your value is assigned to you by other people. And you only get value from the amount of attention you get from other people.

And that's why rock and rollers always do the despicable thing of like, don't you know who I am? You know, because they're experiencing this disparity between the, the worship they get from their fans on whatever their website or, you know, in, in Brazil or Japan or wherever their band is big. wherever their band is big. And then the door guy at, um, at whatever club they're trying to get into. And, you know, and they're saying like, don't you know who I am? You know? And I think the difference with writing is that, I mean, you know, obviously I want everybody to like it. Otherwise I wouldn't put it out there. But if nobody read this story, I'd still feel really good about it. I feel good that I wrote it. I feel good that I was honest with myself about the mistakes that I made and stuff. I feel pride about the writing. But music is so much more about performance and about the eyes upon you.

And I think to do something like that and to just... you. And I think to do something like that and to just not even for people to boo you, but just for them to ignore you completely, which is what happened in so many of the bands I was in, it's just heartbreaking, man. Right. So you're almost compelled to develop this really unhealthy relationship with external validation, despite the nature of what you're pursuing. external validation, despite the nature of what you're pursuing. Yeah. Yeah. It's, um, it's about the applause or the cheers or the reviews or, you know, something like that. Um, you know, the attention from other people and the, you know, the thing you create is, has no value in itself. It's just arbitrarily assigned, right? You know, it's, it's like Bitcoin, right? It's like, yeah it's like yeah exactly there's an algorithm

for it or something yeah i mean you know a big theme obviously of the podcast is sort of pursuing or unlocking a more authentic version of yourself and so when you think back on your you know, pursuit of this dream of rock and roll. And, and, and, and now you have this, you're realizing this, you're actualizing your talent as a writer. Um, you know, where do you, where do you see your most authentic self? Like, do you still feel like being a musician is you at your purest or are you able to access that and, and kind of embody that through the writing? Um, I think I'm my, my most genuine now sober. Um, I really, which, which isn't to say that who I was, the jerk that I was back then wasn't me because I really, which, which isn't to say that who I was, the jerk that I was back then wasn't me because I really feel like it couldn't have happened. It couldn't have unfolded any other way, man. It had to be this way. I had to go out and do that, that crazy shit and, and make all

those mistakes, um, to be who I am, to be where I am now, you know? And I think that, you know, there was, there was one point in my life where probably 22 or 23, and I spent, you know, six months preparing this application for Harper's magazine for the internship, which was like the hardest internship to get. And I got it and I couldn't believe it, but it happened the same summer that I was supposed to go on this sailing trip. And this sailing trip was going to be like six or eight weeks. It was going to be amazing. And I, so I decided to do the sailing trip instead took us five days to like wreck the boat. I had to like, you know, drink my own urine and like lost all my shit. Yeah. The universe, the universe is constantly sort of pecking at you to come over

to the writing side of the thing. And that's, that's the undercurrent throughout this whole book, which is you are grinding yourself down to, down to, down to dust to achieve this rock and roll dream. Meanwhile, uh, you know, this, the sky is falling with sort of reminders and opportunities that you're a great writer and this is something you should pursue. Everything from your mom sort of telling you this as a child, and every time an opportunity arises or a door would open for you to come into this writing world, and it almost came too easy for you to come into this writing world. And it almost came too easy for you.

It was almost like it was too easy so you didn't want it. And you're constantly ignoring this and ignoring it and ignoring it. And you fill out the application to go to the Columbia Writing Program grad school and it happens for you despite the fact that you could barely rub two pennies together

and weren't even sure that was what you wanted to do. It was sort of like every time you knocked on a door, it opened for you. Whereas in rock and roll, every time you knocked on a door, the door kept shutting. The moral of the story is your mother knows best listen to your mom listen to your mom all right no i mean i i wrote about it once in a song you know and i said um every success shows the world is weak and every failure proves that it's me and you know and that was just like if i could do something if it came easy to me then it had no value and if i could do something if i or if i if i failed if i fell short then it proved that i was shitty and worthless and had nothing to contribute right well it goes all

the way back who was it groucho marx who said i'd never want to be a member of any club that would have me right it's it's you know, you know, the level of difficulty in rock and roll was a great place for you to apply your profound level of self-deprecation, low self-esteem all the way to the hill, right? And that really comes across in the writing, which is your facility for self-deprecation. And that allows you to evoke a certain humanity that lets the reader inside your world to inhabit your world and to empathize with you completely.

It's funny, you know, because when I wrote this, I was like, this is going to be very meaningful to a handful of people and everybody else is just not going to get it. But I had a really interesting conversation with my girlfriend's mom the other day, because she's, um, she was a graphic artist and, you know, and that was, that's, that was her

dream. That's what she wanted to pursue. And she doesn't know any of the bands in this story. She was never, you know, a druggie and she never, you know, I don't think she ever played an instrument or had that dream, but she was like, man, I knew exactly what you were talking about, you know? And I mean, that's one of the things is that I think, I guess I kind of come down a little hard on myself and hard on the decisions, you know, that I made and the decision to follow that dream. But I think, I think I made the right decision by doing it because did you watch Breaking Bad? Yeah.

I feel like that's the inversion of it, you know, where Walter White as a young man had dreams and ambitions and aspirations of being like a research chemist and doing, you know, huge, brave, cool things. doing, you know, huge, brave, cool things. And instead he, he, without really trying for it, without pursuing it, he was just like, no, I'll do the, I'll just do this thing. I'll just be a, you know, a high school teacher instead. Well, he had that company that he founded though. And then he got kind of pushed out or whatever. Right. So it sounds, so it's almost like, uh, you kind of, uh, you know, at the bar and the other band that's playing is the one that breaks huge and they're not as good as your band, right? That's the analogy to that. Yeah. I mean, for him, though, I mean, I felt like he didn't really, like, pursue that dream all the way.

And then it came back as something, you know, I think of that, you know, Langston Hughes poem about Harlem. He says, you know, what happens that you know langston hughes uh poem about harlem he says you know what happens to a dream deferred you know that um you know for walter white it came back as a malign cancerous thing where he was like oh i've just been a schlub my whole life now i want to feel what it's like to be a star you know and everybody i mean that's the thing is like being a rock star that's like such an analogy for everyone it's you know you talk about the rock the rock stars of the running world or like you know you know i was listening to like jay-z and danny brown before and they both have songs about like party like a rock star die like a rock star it's a beverage now right exactly yeah you know it's Right, exactly, yeah. You know. It's branded as a lifestyle. You average with products you can buy and everything. Well, you know, I think that the thing that you've always done, though,

is you've lived life large. Not large, you know, monetarily, but you've lived like you've lived. You have a lot of experiences in your life. You've collected amazing experiences. So you have this tapestry, um, that you can now tap into as a writer, you have things to write about, you have things to say, and yes, you know, beat the devil's very specific about this rock and roll world in downtown New York and Brooklyn. And, and, you know, and you name all these bands, like the Yeah Yeah Yeahs and the Strokes. What are some of the other bands that you're kind of bumping up against

throughout the story? Well, I mean, there was the whole sort of post-Strokes rock and roll gold rush in Brooklyn. We had the Libertines come through, the Walkmans, Secret Machines, Liars. Vampire Weekend. Yeah, opened up for vampire weekend for their cd release party they were fans of beat the devil um we were on the b side of a bruce springsteen uh single that was a benefit or yeah that's amazing yeah it's just so ridiculous

so but the point being that uh that yes it's a very specific world, but the humanity is universal. You know what I mean? So even though it's your story of kind of navigating the underbelly of this subculture, it's your human reactions. It's your frailties. It's your courage to be vulnerable in the prose that makes it relatable. And that's why your girlfriend's mom can enjoy it and tap into it, even though it's a foreign country for her. I mean, every great story should transport you to a different world,

but it should have universal truths about it that we can tap into that help us learn something about the human condition. Right. And so it certainly does that. Well, I mean, I learned a lot writing this as well. You know, how, how hard I try not to learn anything. You're very resistant. I, uh, but man, when i sat down to write this story i was like they're just you know these you know a couple people in here that i'm really really angry at because they really i really got hosed man and then in the process of writing this i was like man i can't believe i have any friends at all anymore like you know you know there are a couple people that i'm pretty angry at that you know and know, you know, there were a couple of people that I'm

pretty angry at that, you know, and with good reason, but man, they have a lot of reason to be mad at me too. You know? And like, we all acted like just animals. And, um, I really realized that I had to, uh, you know, I had to forgive myself for like the crap that I did, but I had, I really had to forgive other people too, because we were all just, we're out of our heads, man. And how many of these, most of the people that you played music with really aren't doing it anymore, right? Or they're not doing it professionally or full-time. I mean, Shilpa has music that's coming out and she, she was the lead singer in Beat the Devil. Yeah. She's, she's doing great. She signed singer in beat the devil yeah she's she's doing

great she signed to uh to nick cave's record label she has a new record out and i think it's called everything is self-full a show and i i absolutely recommend her music uh even though she probably hates my guts for everything i wrote in this story i still think she's a brilliant artist well you were very very demonstrative in, in speaking to her talent as being, you know, this sort of iconic voice. Oh yeah. She's she's absolutely one of a kind. She's a genius period, you know? And, you know, another person who I wrote about that I said some, some pretty hard things about was my friend James, who was the band leader in Come On.

I wanted to tell you this last night so bad, but I forced myself to save it for today. Oh, okay. James read the story, and then we got in touch, and we talked, and he invited me to join a band with him and Zach, the singer from Fresh Kill. Oh, my God. You have to read the story to know how funny that is, because basically the story is sort of closing the chapter on being in bands with these guys. And you had not spoken to James

for quite a long time, right? We hadn't spoken for eight years. Oh, wow. And then we got together like two days ago and we're sitting uh in the in the corner you know in the window of a neighborhood bar and uh dave burton who was the tour manager for yeah yeah yeahs and you know a ton just he just came back from sleigh bells and he you know he's been around forever and he was one of our buddies back in the day when we were you know drinking at Mars bar and falling off our bar stools. He walks by the window where James and I are sitting, recognizes me first and puts his left hand on the glass. And then he looks over and he sees James and, and, you know, he immediately has sort of like a what's up because he hasn't seen us together for almost 10 years, puts his

other hand on the glass, then looks at us. And then when one hand makes a fist and the other, he puts his finger in his fist the international symbol for you know you guys are doing it right wow so what did you say to him well you know and this shit is hard because to live as an alcoholic for 20 years you become an inveterate apologizer you you you're apologizing or you're apologizing muscle gets very strong very limber you know and you can apologize to anyone for anything and and you know so it's easy for me well i'm going to interject right now i'm just going to read from because i highlighted i, I love like on that Kindle, you can highlight stuff. So I highlighted a paragraph on that very subject that you wrote to here where you say, this is the one, one of the many, to introduce it, you're about to have an encounter with someone who you owe an apology to for this very thing, right?

too for this very thing right and you say this is one of the many tiny indignities of being a sober alcoholic you are forever being asked by people who care about you whether or not you are okay they mean well but the aggregate result is that you feel you are teetering on the edge of some fearsome precipice at least in their own eyes i certainly have had that experience i mean it doesn't happen so much anymore but yeah like. Like, Hey, how are you? Are you okay? Are you okay? Like I italicize the R, but like, how are you? It's very loaded. It's like, I'm not drunk, man. Relax. Like, let's talk. But you know, that's an accomplishment in and of itself. Yeah. Right. So, but when I had this conversation with James, you know, I, I had to apologize to him for how I had, I had acted, but

I also had to tell him what I was angry about. And I had to say, I I'm mad at you for this and this and this. And then he was like, well, you just failed at making an amends. You violated the Cardinal rule. Are you not supposed to, uh, are you not supposed to, you're supposed to just, just give them just, just own your own side of the street and clean it up and, uh, are you not supposed to, you're supposed to just, just give them, just, just own your own side of the street and clean it up and, and, you know,

leave the rest alone. That makes sense to me. You can't like do that. You know, I'm so sorry. I did all these things, blah, blah,

blah, list them all and go through all that and then go, but get in and then start, you know, taking the other guy's inventory about all the things that he did wrong. That undermines the healing power. Well, I didn't phrase it as a quid pro quo. Like, I'll apologize for this if you'll apologize for that.

But one of the things that I've found is that sometimes it's hard to move past something without expressing like, you know, rich, you left your socks on the floor yesterday. Like it annoyed me, you know, and then you can move forward with, you know, where you'll say, Oh, I was just really tired. I won't do that again or whatever. Or, but, but then that way I don't harbor like, yeah, I get that. That's more like healthy boundaries, setting healthy boundaries. So you're not holding onto some resentment. Yeah. And I've been holding onto this for fucking ever, man. And it was, You're not holding onto some resentment. Yeah. And I've been holding onto this for fucking ever, man.

And it was, it felt so liberate. It was, it was also terrifying to sit there and to be like, this is what I was angry about. And then he was like, oh, well,

you know, and I just, I mean, I said, I'm mad that you didn't call me when you knew that Allison and I were on the rocks. You were supposed to be my best friend. And he was like,

I know. And that was sort of it, man. And then he was like, okay, these was sort of it man and then he was like okay these are the songs and i was like all right great and like we have practice in a couple days oh my god you're going back in i know it's total like recidivist i just i can't believe it and i'm doubling down to it now it's in a band with like james and zach the guys i met when i was 15 and like started they were my first band those guys and now we're all old and we're still doing

it so you're gonna have an anvil story yet basically i'm i'm i'm i'm embarrassed to tell you that i'm like going back into the practice space but i'm also a dude i'm fucking thrilled like i'm already planning like i'm gonna play this bass or maybe i'll play that bass and like i can't wait to get in the room with those guys well it's also an opportunity to have that that experience when you're in a very different place you're not you know you have you have your writing uh you know you're on you're standing up on two feet you're financially solvent you know i don't see you like jumping in your van and driving across the country by yourself without changing your genes. You know, like I just don't, you know, you're not 15 anymore. You're 17 now, you know what I mean? Like, and, and you get to have, and you actually get to have that experience with a different level

of consciousness and awareness than where you were at, you know, the last time you went through it. So it could be a completely different experience for you. You know, that's, that's kind of cool and exciting. And, you know, what I always say in, in sobriety is, is, uh, you know, there are few, few, if any, uh, places or opportunities that you have in life where you can just hit the stop button and then hit, you know, reset and wipe the slate clean and try to reconfigure your life completely from the ground up, you know? And when you, when you get sober, you have that opportunity. Not everybody takes that opportunity or some people will do it with half measures, but if you really decide you're going to create a completely

new foundation for your life, emotionally, mentally, you know, spiritually, all of these things, then you have an opportunity to experience life completely differently and, and to embrace life and live large, like pursue your dream. You know, it's like, I didn't get sober to live small or be in fear. You know, I, I got sober. I, you know, I, I meddled through that experience so that I could have a better life and that I could approach life, not afraid. Yeah. And you know, I, I think that, you know, that's, I think that's why you and I keep coming back to like, talk about this because that's the thing is the better life, living better, getting better. And one of the things that I really realized with James and with this just sit down and just talk about stuff that like

we might be able to reset it you know and that we might have that opportunity to start over again clean and um you know James and Zach really are like you know my best fucking friends you know and you know and we've been been through so much crap together that you know when zach and i were on tour together somebody would say something and zach would like give me a look which was just with that look he was referencing something dumb that i'd done 10 years earlier i would feel bad and then he would apologize and we'd both laugh without anybody saying a word right you have a shorthand yeah the history with this person. Yeah.

So what's the new band going to be called? Oh, man. We might break up before we can decide on a name. Yeah. Let's just keep it on the DL right now. You'll be the first to know. All right. Well, cool, Matt.

I'm excited for you. So the other thing that's going on is you're dealing with a little bit of an injury, right? To put it mildly. You called me the other day. You were all excited because you emailed me and said, I put in 100-mile week, 100 miles of running in one week. It was the first time you put in 100 miles, and you were feeling good. And then you picked me up at the airport with a different look on your face. Well, I was making jokes about it the other day because I was like, oh, I think I have a stress fracture of my right nut.

But I went to the doctor yesterday, and I have a hernia. And I ran 100-mile week with no problems like running strong and then picked up a dresser with my like buddy the other day and uh and just it's like the warranty expired man i'm just falling apart no you're you see you're just extrapolating on one thing that happened and making a judgment call about your age and all sorts of other things you just it happens man you got a hernia it's probably i mean i wonder if it was from me. We were talking about this last night, but you kind of pulled that 100 mile a week out of thin air. Like you didn't really build up to it in a rational fashion. You did it very alcoholically. That's my specialty. This is the thing is that if,

and I was thinking about this on the way up here is that if you, if you said, all right, I'll give you a million dollars. If you run a hundred miles in the next, you know, 30 hours or whatever, I would do it. I could do it. If you said, I'll give you a million dollars. If you run four days a week for the next year, any distance, just run two, two miles, you know, four days a week, uh, for the next year, I couldn't do it. I just, I don't have that. Like my brain doesn't operate that way. You just structure your life. Yeah. And consistency like that. Well, you're only 17 next year. You're going to be 18 and we'll see right well the other thing too is that i know i think i know how i got this hernia and it's by not following my own advice

when i was doing renovations on the house this summer i like threw my back out and then i it's been bothering me since then it's been bothering me for like four months but i haven't fixed that problem and then when we were moving the dresser the other day i was like i know i can't lift with my back because my back's hurt so i really bore down on like my core muscles when we were lifting this thing and i really think that's what did it and if i had dealt with my back issue i bet i would be fine but right now i just feel like right so no more running you gotta have surgery dude you were gonna come out to la we were gonna do all this running everything falls I bet I would be fine. But right now, I just feel like... Right. So no more running. You got to have surgery. Dude, you were going to come out to LA.

We were going to do all this running. Everything falls apart. We were going to write something together. I know. Come on, man. Well, I have my next story all set up. My hernia. Your hernia.

My hernia. Me and my hernia. So yeah, you kind of made this pronouncement after that, that now that beat the devil is out that you're done doing Kendall singles. But, and I asked you, you know, why is, why, why do you feel the need to make that decision? Well, you know, for a bunch of reasons, I, um, it's, it's exhausting and stressful to, uh, to sort of stand naked in front of the world. Um, and you know, in all your deformity, just so anonymous commenters can be like, Ooh, look at the second toe on his right foot. It's like longer than the other ones. That's so gross. You're disgusting. You know, I, and I've

just taken, taken a lot of shit and I, and you know, also people are saying like, oh, you're just doing this for a story. No, I'm just living. I've been doing stupid shit since I was a kid. The only difference is I'm writing about it now. And people seem to have – they're putting the cart before the horse. I have other stuff I want to focus on. I want to, you know, I want to write a book. I want to write fiction.

I definitely want to write something with you. But I want to do other stuff, stuff other than letting the world read my diary. Right, but a Kindle single doesn't have to be a memoir. You could do, can't, don't they do, can you do fiction? Do they release fiction in Kindle single doesn't have to be a memoir. You could do – don't they do – can you do fiction? Do they release fiction in Kindle singles? Yeah, yeah. I mean I'd be open to publishing fiction through Amazon.

It's just – it'll be the last one of these incredibly intimate portraits of my life. Well, I mean, yeah, you deserve a break from that for sure. You've done that, you know. We get it, dude. You did a lot of drugs. I feel like everybody knows what my laundry smells like just from like the writing. Well, you're so specific about what it smells like. How could we not, right?

Some things you can never forget. They're just too horrible not to to uh to permanently permanently record well um i'm gonna say because i know you won't because you're too uh that was my phone i think because i know you're too humble to do it but um you know we were talking about other writing opportunities for you and and i know that there is an editor at The Atlantic who's gone so far as to say that you are the voice of our generation. One of the voices of our generation. And I think that there's a lot of truth to that, man. And so you need to keep going.

You need to not get too distracted by rock and roll so that you can understand that you have an incredible talent for writing that you need to stay focused on. I've been threatening to give you a Charlie horse since the first time I met you. And today you might actually get it. Are you going to make me edit that out? I don't know.

I mean, fortunately, thank God this is a podcast. So nobody can actually see me blush. And, um, you know, they also won't be able to tell that I'm wearing the same clothes that I wore yesterday. I know that don't tell anybody. I, uh, well, I mean, thank you, you know, and you know, that's the thing is, I guess, um, uh, you know, at this point, it's just gratifying for people to get it, for people to understand it, you know, and, and, um, and, and also, and not just, you know, you know, bitter men of a certain age who have too many guitars, but also like, you know, the moms in, you know, Chesterfield, Missouri and, um, you know, and other writers, um, that's incredibly meaningful to me. You know what I mean? I, I try, I'm trying more and more

to assign value to things in my life, according to how I feel they're valued and not how other people feel they're valued. But when somebody who writes for the Atlantic says things like that for, you know, about your writing, it writing, it feels fucking great, man. Yeah, it's incredible. I totally disagree, but it feels great. Well, of course you do. satisfaction or a sense of accomplishment from putting, you know, putting your written work out there and having it be well-received versus getting up on stage at a crappy bar, but getting to, you know, jam the way that you want to. Um,

cause it goes, it goes, I mean, I want to get back to this idea of pursuing your dream, pursuing an authentic version of yourself and trying to be tapped into, you know, I think that that sort of being tapped into that is a recipe for being fulfilled. Right. And so how do we be more fulfilled in our daily lives? our daily lives? How do we tap into something that is, you know, primal and authentic that we can express more fully that will give us a greater sense of satisfaction, service, you know, groundedness or what, or, you know, just, just a greater sense of, you know, where we, or I should say I, or you, you you, stand in the world? There were certainly nights when I was, not when I was playing somebody else's music, but when I was touring as a solo artist. I remember one night in Albuquerque, it was like a Monday night and I was playing my songs and everybody was in the other room sitting at the

bar. And then as I was playing, I could see people getting up from the bar and then like coming into the other room to hear me. And then there were a couple of times where I'd say a line and people would applaud so loudly that I'd have to like loop, you know, through the verse, you know, to sort of let the, you know, let the applause die down before I could sing the next line. to sort of let the applause die down before I could sing the next line. That was like the greatest experience of my entire life, where I felt like they got it, they understood. But also I was shit-faced.

And now with writing, it's less of the immediate visceral rush and more of a sustained and sustainable thing of me making myself miserable in my room, trying to write this shit honestly. And then to have, I mean, to have somebody like you get it, you know, to have you understand it, you know, I mean, I felt weird, like sending you this story and being like, ah, rich, you know, this is like my rock and roll story. It has nothing to do with like, you know, being an athlete or a triathlete or being a vegan or, you know, it's just, it's about. It's the drunk-a-log, like you said. But the part about dreams in it speaks to you. And it's spoken to a lot of people. Right. And the way you just described it, it's almost like an analogy for sobriety.

When you're out using drugs and getting drunk and doing all that kind of stuff, the highs are very high and the lows are very low. for sobriety. Like when you're out using drugs and getting drunk and doing all that kind of stuff, uh, you know, the highs are very high and the lows are very low and you're just constantly rubber banding between, you know, these two very pronounced extremes. Like you're on stage going crazy or, and then you,

you, you wake up in a gutter and you don't know where you are. It's four days later. You know what I mean? And, and, and then sobriety is just kind of this even keeled sense of well-being you know without the super high highs and the super low lows and it takes

some adjustment you know when you're when you're new in recovery you're not used to that and that's why you see a lot of people acting out they're trying to create drama in their life because they need that spike you know they need the they need the up and the down. That's what they're used to. That's what they're programmed for. Um, and the writing is kind of like the sobriety parallel to the music. You know, it's, it's hard, it's hard fought, it's challenging and, and you're doing it quietly in your room and it's painful, but ultimately it sustains you and it has a level of, there's a lot, I would imagine there's a level of satisfaction with that. That's different from the music, like in a kind of deep personal way. Yeah. I mean, it's funny. The, uh, you know, Chuck,

who the guy who works at the deli around the, you know, the corner around the corner from my house, you know, I think he can tell when I've had a good day writing because i go in there and i'm like yo chuck my man what's up you know and then other days i'm like yeah how much is it in your pajamas right um and that's the thing is that um nothing's changed you know on a when i have a good day writing or when i have a bad day writing there's i'm not getting any outside stimulus it's just it's all in my head, you know? And I'm like, I'm figuring it out or I'm not figuring it out. And that's very much like sobriety. You know what I mean? The, the shittiest, most frustrating thing about writing is that no matter how well you write, it never gets loud. that no matter how well you write, it never gets loud.

Like I can't write loud yet. And that's frustrating because I remember like, I can remember times when, you know, I'm not a great player, so I was a real specific tone nerd. Like I wanted my bass to sound a certain way, like it had to have this, you know, a little bit of grindy high end and also that like booming low end to make you feel like you had to take a shit. And, you know, and the fuzz pedal had to sound this you know a little bit of grindy high end and also that like booming low end and make made you feel like you had to take a shit and you know and the fuzz pedal had to sound like this and i'm in and usually we'd be playing through somebody else's gear so i you know

the sound you know the setup you know stage wasn't set up right but every once in a while i would get to play loud and i and i would have all my gear and it would be like sounding perfect and i just remember like burying my face in the speaker cabinet and it just like feeling it. It was like water rushing past you. And there's like, you know, Kenny,

you can't even think of anything. It just felt so good. And you don't get that writing. Now, uh, there's a, a writer director. I don't know if it was his quote or he was quoting somebody else.

Um, he was talking about the process of writing. I think he was quoting someone else, but in any event, it's this guy, Steven Gagan. He, he wrote Syriana.

He wrote movie traffic or, and he was saying that, uh, writing is like, you know, pushing a rock up a mountain, you know, like pushing it up Mount Everest.

And directing a movie is sort of like having sex constantly, something like that. You know, like two different, completely different creative disciplines and maybe sort of swap out directing for playing music. You know, the best and the most frustrating thing about playing music is that it's collaborative, is that you're working with other people. And when things are working well, there's nothing better, man. And when things are working badly,'s just there's nothing worse it's just horrible and you know writing most of it is you know 90 of it it's just me by myself and it's almost like i have too much control like i'm like you know can somebody else come in here and like can you make

a contribution you know because like i'm kind of fucking sick of looking at this shit you know i'd like i've been over it like 10 times you know what is it what's your process i mean do you you know i think i know you well enough that you're not the guy who wakes up at the same time every morning and says you know for the next for these certain hours every day you know i show up for the page i resent that tell me i I'm wrong. I wish, I wish you were. I wish you were. No, I mean, I will, um, you know, wake up, plan to write, not write at all. Uh, then the next day I wake up, plan to write, not write at all. And then the third day I'm like a nervous wreck and I wake up and like, just like make a pot of coffee in my boxers and then sit down with a pot of coffee and like start writing and then like it's midnight and i'm like oh shit i gotta go to sleep and then

i wake up the next day and i'm like i don't need to write today and then that cycle you know every three or four days you know my anxiety builds to a point where i can't bear it any longer and then i sit down and just hammer the shit out and like really just suffer in front of the screen. Right. You know, but you're doing, you're compelled to do it.

You're suffering from not doing it also. Oh yeah. I, um, yeah, I hate doing it. I hate not doing it. Right.

So what does that tell you about yourself when you, when you, the anxiety that you experienced when you're not doing it? Well, I mean, it tells me I'm a big baby and it, I mean, but it tells, it tells me that that's, you're not doing it. Well, I mean, it tells me I'm a big baby. No, but it tells me that you're being drawn to do it. You feel compelled to do it.

Maybe I should have my mom here doing the podcast with you, and you guys can just be like, that Mishka, he just won't come around. I think you're coming around. No, I'm starting to come around. I mean, apparently know I mean apparently I don't have any future in moving furniture so I gotta make this

writing thing work yeah I can write with a hernia you can if you if you don't get too distracted by this rock and roll dream that's trying to intervene

and crater your writing career no I have it under control i have it under control this time man i swear yeah exactly you just put out this book about your addiction to rock and roll and essentially it ends with how you're recovering from this and now you're going back in it's it's different man i'm just going to do it on the weekends you know or i uh i'm just going to play rock and roll in other States. I'll be sober in New York. No, I think it's going to be, I think it's going to be different. Time will tell.

Yeah. I mean, how is, you know, how, since the last time you were on the podcast, I mean, has your perspective on sobriety changed at all? Or how are you, you know, how are you, what's your, what's your approach towards maintaining that these days? Um, I mean, it's constantly evolving. One of the, one of the things that I realized is that, um, you know, that I felt like I chose the hardest way by getting sober on my own, but I'm starting to realize that I chose what was the easiest way for me was to be alone and not to let other people in. And, and by just relying on myself, I actually made it easier. And what would have been harder for me would be to ask for help and to connect

with other people. And, um, so that's one of the things that I'm really, um, well, I mean, you remember when I was at your house this summer and then like woke up the next morning and I was, and I read on Facebook that a friend of mine had died and had to make that like weird, dramatic exit. Um, yeah. And I, you know, I really loved him. But we didn't hang out as much as we should have because I've lived in New York for a long time. And I've gotten really good at being insular and good at keeping people at arm's length where if they hurt me, it doesn't hurt that much. And, and I've gotten, you know, I feel in a lot of ways, like I've forgotten how to connect with people. And, you know, I mean, that was, you know, so I feel like, you know, something was in the air,

you know, I mean, when, you know, when we talked to this summer about getting together and you were like, oh, that's the night that, you know, an AA meeting happens. And I was like, Oh yeah, fuck that. I'm not coming in. And then I was like, that scares me. The thought of going to an AA meeting and being in a room with a bunch of other people like me. Um, so I should do it. And so, you know, I, you know, that 24 hours of like going to that meeting with you and then finding out that my friend Adam had died, you know, it made me realize that the next adventure is not running a hundred miles or doing an Ironman or something like that. The next adventure is like trying to reconnect with people.

That's the ultimate adventure. I mean, you know, I'm listening to you say all this and, you know, you realize, of course, that this drive to remain isolated is the very essence of alcoholism. That is alcoholism. It's that need to be alone, to be disconnected from, you know from your fellow man that is an impediment to personal growth.

But I'm so good at it. Of course. All alcoholics are good at that. My natural state is to be alone away. I don't want to have to deal with anybody or anything. You know, it's like my, my fantasy is to like be completely apart from all other human beings and be just left to my own devices. You know what I mean? Like it's the most unhealthy thing. Like when I'm, when I'm allowed to do that, then that's not a healthy place for me. And that's where I start to, you know, regress. So I think that, that the idea of confronting that in yourself, I mean, I'm glad that you're acknowledging that and you're, you're, you're grappling with that.

But the idea of letting people in is the beginning of healing. You know, it's like, I talked about this in my book too. Like, I don't want anyone to help me. I don't want to ask for help. I don't want to accept help. I don't want anyone to help me. I don't want to ask for help. I don't want to accept help. I don't want to believe that anybody has a better idea than what I have. And I would prefer to just be left alone. I'm terrible on airplanes. I never want to talk to the guy who's sitting next to me. Me too.

You know what I mean? That's a nightmare for me if the guy wants to strike up a conversation. I put my headphones in and don't put any music on. Right. I have a whole routine so that I put the vibe out that I don't want to, you know what I mean? And that's not healthy. That's not, you know, that that's not what normal people do. And I can say, Oh, this is just my personality or my peccadilloes or whatever. But what's behind that is really this unhealthy desire to be disconnected. What's, what's ironic is that

when I was, when I was drunk all the time, I hung out with everybody. I would talk to anybody. I would hang out with anybody. My greatest fear was to be alone. And then when I got sober, And then when I got sober, it's like I developed a new sickness of being alone. Right. But when you're under the influence and you're interacting with people, that's not really you. You know what I mean? It's that you have that social self that allows you to be connected with people. When you remove that, it's terrifying to be amongst other people because you're,

it's like you're able to be really vulnerable and raw and truthful in your writing. But are you able to do that just walking into a room and interacting with another human being in a basic form? You know what I mean? Sounds terrifying. Right. So, so that's,

that's the challenge. That's the work, you know what I mean? And I think that's the road to, that's the road to, you know, true recovery and, and, and breaking the glass ceiling on where you're at and gaining a greater perspective and a sense of connectedness with other people. I think that, that if you're able to confront that and to start dealing with that, that I think your world will blow wide open. Human beings are such a reliable disappointment though. It's like, I, you know, I just, yeah, but that's your, that's your defense mechanism. Let go of that. Like, why do you forget about what, you know, how you're going to, I don't know how they're going to treat you. It's just about your willingness to

be open to the experience without judging it. I hear what you're saying. I, one of the reasons that, that I think I have some resistance to it is, um, is because of my mother, because my mother would always take the higher ground and she would always forgive people. And she was always, you know, she is always very good about, you know, sending out what she wants to receive. And, and man, she's just gotten fucked so many times by, you know, and that's, and that's why my impulse is to say like, no, I'm going to fight you to the death for this. In other words, what you're saying is people let you down and you don't want to be vulnerable and put yourself in a position where you can be hurt.

You are correct. Yeah. Right. So that's the challenge, man. There's always a reason. It's like, well, my mom, my alcoholism, this happened to me as a kid. This is why I like to be isolated and alone. All the, I mean, everybody's got a battery of, of reasons for why they think it's a good idea, but ultimately you're the one who ends up suffering. Yeah. I mean, I should just speak

for myself. I shouldn't speak to you. You know, I shouldn't speak to you know i shouldn't speak to you i just know i know that for myself for sure that was one of the things i really found when i sat down with james and we finally buried the hatchet that this like cold war that's gone on for eight years was finally over was that i didn't realize how much energy holding that grudge took until it was gone and then i felt like when you go to the chiropractor and they like crack something you're like oh you know and i and you know and then i was just sitting there with my old buddy and we're like making the same jokes we've been making since 1993 you know and uh and you know and it was great and like I'm so excited about it.

It feels like falling in love again with somebody you know very well. My old buddy Jimmy is restored to me. But how did that happen? Did he reach out to you after reading this? Because you hadn't spoken to him. Or who was the first person to call who? He reached out to me. And I was the one who froze him out initially, too.

Right. I'm good at that. So that in and of itself is interesting, right? Because what would it have taken for you to pick up the phone and call him? Never would have happened. Right. have taken for you to pick up the phone and call him never would have happened right so when you say like who's suffering from this resentment look what happened because he picked up the phone you could have made that happen as well by calling him who are who are the other people that are out

there that you could have that experience with if you took the initiative how much time you have so right so this is the but this gets to the core of what it means to be isolated and create this, you know, this arsenal of tools and rationales as to why this is who I am and this is the way I like it and this is what makes me happy and you build this fortress around yourself

and ultimately you're just cut off, you're cut off from a lot of good things in your life, I think. Yeah. And, you know, I think a lot of it is about control too. You know, that if, um, you know, you know, part of it is, um, if you, you know, if you don't submit your writing or if you don't try and book a gig or you don't try and get, you know, the label to listen to your record, then you can guarantee that you won't fail, you know, by, by not trying, you're able to control that, you know, so, so you won't fail. Or if you like, you know, if you, you know, catch the eye of the girl in HR and you feel like that and you want to ask her out, you know, you can't control whether she's going to say, you can't control her saying yes, but you can control her saying no by not asking her.

So you won't ask her. There'll be no connection, but at least you're in control of it. Well, yeah, and you don't have to deal with the fear of rejection and all the uncertainty that comes with it. Yeah. The risk. You're taking on this risk.

It's terrifying, right? And one thing that always helps me when I'm confronted with this sort of thing is something a friend of mine always says, which is whatever happens, whatever result occurs by putting yourself out there and whatever emotional experience you have as a result they're just feelings man they're just feelings they're not going to kill you you can feel them and feelings change so you'll feel one way and then an hour later a day later you'll feel differently but you're not going to die and i think there is that, I've had that sense of panic. Like, I really do feel like I'm going to die if I take that leap or do that thing. Yeah. I mean, you know, people say like, man, you know, you go out and run these like crazy races, like, you know, doesn't it hurt? And I'm like, yeah, of course it hurts, but it's just, you know, it's just pain. It's like, it stops eventually, but like, what if you could have that approach to emotional challenges,

the same approach that you have to the running and the physical challenges? Yeah, I hate it when you turn my advice around. Make me take my own advice. Yeah. I'm saying it for myself as well. Please. I'm not up on any kind of high pedestal on this at all. I struggle with this stuff mightily all the time. No, I think you're totally right. And

I think that that's the way to do it. But for some reason, I can deal with, you know, physical pain is much less scary for me than emotional pain. Um, that shit hurts, man. Right. I'm a sensitive dude underneath all of this. Also sometimes, uh, the physical pain is a coping mechanism for the emotional pain. It's very easy. And I've experienced this myself to kind of, uh, pursue the physical as a means of kind of quieting the emotional chatter. You know what I mean? Like that pain can surpass that whatever pain I'm feeling from something emotional that I'm going through. And it makes me feel like I've dealt with it or that it's not a problem for me. And I think that's where you can get into trouble, particularly as a recovering alcoholic, in misplacing that or misreading those cues. Yeah, I mean, I think that's a lot of what appealed to me about running distance is that it hurt so much.

And I could fight it as hard as I could, and I wouldn't hurt anyone. And also, I felt like I needed to be punished, man. Right. It's almost like you can have a very unhealthy relationship with it that you're almost like a cutter. You know what I mean? Oh, yeah. You know? Yeah.

I was a cutter for a long time. Oh, you were? I didn't know that. Yeah. From like eight or nine up until I quit drinking. Wow. Yeah. That's something I have no like understanding of really. I mean, I understand intellectually why people do it, but

I can't connect with that emotionally. Like what would drive you to, to do that? It's, you know, it's been, it's been such a long time that, uh, I have a hard time recalling, you know what I mean? The thought of doing like that, you know, doing something like that right now, just, you know, it just seems alien to me. I'm like doing everything I can right now to keep my body together, you know, not to, you know, and not destroy it. But yeah, I mean, I smashed an empty whiskey bottle with my right hand and got 14 stitches and almost lost extension of my index finger and almost lost a huge chunk of skin off my knuckle. And it just. But is that is it like a control thing? Like it's also a means of trying to control your, how you feel emotionally or where does, I

mean, what is it, or is it like a low self-esteem thing where you just, you feel like you deserve to be in pain? I mean, what is the driver? Um, yeah, I mean, for me, like, you know, part of it was definitely low self-esteem and, uh, you know, I wanted to, I wanted to die, but I didn't have the courage to go through with that. And also, when you're in emotional pain and then you feel physical pain and you see physical damage, it makes sense. So it's not that it numbs out the emotional pain or supersedes it. It just gives it a physical context? Yeah, it's a physical manifestation of how you feel inside. Yeah, it's horrible shit.

I mean, my sister's got four little kids who I love to death and the oldest is 11. And by that time I was already cutting. And, uh, you know, at a certain point it's going to get to, you know, a time where, you know, I take them out to Denny's and I say, you know, do you know what an alcoholic is? And I'll tell you, I'm not looking forward to that conversation at all. Are you already rehearsing that speech? I mean, why do you feel like you have to have that talk? Well, I, you know, I don't want them to hear it from somebody else. Hey, your uncle's a, your uncle's a fucking alcoholic, you know? And I, I would rather, you know, I would rather be able to adjust that message, you know? And also,

I mean, I think that people who aren't alcoholics got to know that like we walk among you, you know, that like there's lots of us out there, you know? And, uh, and you know, anybody could be an alcoholic or in recovery for anything, you know, drugs or alcohol or eating disorder or cutters or, you know, whatever. And that, you know, that we make a contribution and that like we get hungry and, you know, in a lot of ways we operate just like normal people, you know. Right. I mean, what's, you know, what do you think is the, is the, the next thing for you? The next addiction? Well, no, I was, I was thinking more. Yeah, that's a good one. I was thinking more in terms of,

of, uh, turning the volume up on recovery. Like, you know, what are you dealing with right now that you would like better mastery over? with right now that you would like better mastery over? Um, well, we talked about the, you know, overcome the isolationism. I mean, that's a big one. So, yeah, I mean, you know, it's a big, you know, I mean, I, I have a new girlfriend who I just started dating this summer and it's, you know, and I'm putting a lot of effort and energy into making that relationship work. And it's an interesting venture because it's sort of like God said, well, here, Mishka, if you can't get along with this girl,

you can't get along with anybody. Well, that's one way of looking at it. But the other way of looking at it is water rises to its own level. And I always like to think of it like, like you're emitting a certain level of vibration, right? You're putting out,

you're putting, you're putting out an energy signal, like a radio tower. And that signal is, is finally tuned to wherever you are kind of emotionally and spiritually, et cetera. And, and you will attract people that are kind of emotionally and spiritually, et cetera. And, and you will attract

people that are kind of vibrating on the same frequency. So when you're hanging out, you know, in the basement of whatever bar and playing in these bands, you know, doing all that kind of living that lifestyle, then the frequency that, you know, the, the radio beacon is putting out a certain, you know, it's putting out a certain, you know, frequency, right? And those are the people that you're going to end up hanging out with. They're the people that are going to be attracted to you and you're in a very different place now. So you're putting out a different frequency and you've attracted somebody very different into your life from what you're used to. She's a beautiful, wonderful girl. And you have an opportunity to have a sober

relationship with this girl and do it in a completely new way. You don't have to do it the way that you've done it in the past. You can learn from your mistakes. You can manage your confrontations completely differently. And so when you say, oh, God is sending this to you, like you almost say it in a pessimistic way, like God's sending this person to you to see if you'll screw it up. And I'm looking at it like you're being rewarded. You've been given this gift and this opportunity and you can have a completely different experience, you know, throughout whatever rule book you were using before and do it in a different way. Yeah. No, you're, you're totally right. Um, and, uh, you know, I really am trying to do just, you know, review what I, what I used to do and then do the opposite thing, you know? And, um, and also this is a good thing

where, you know, the isolationism might not be such a good idea. You know what I mean? It's like, you can call me up at any time. You can go, who are my buddies that have had, you know, productive, healthy, long-term relationships who maybe have had an experience that I'm having right now and can help me make the right decision. Hey, I'll call. It doesn't, I'm not saying me, but like any, you know, call somebody up and say, Hey, this is what's going on. Like, what would you do? Yeah. You know what I mean? what's going on like what would you do yeah you know what i mean like that's that's the opposite of like grinding your teeth you know and drinking a ton of coffee and trying to bang out your your next whatever you're writing and not talking to anybody no i i'm really trying to uh you know since my friend adam died i'm really i'm trying hard to to affect a sea change in my personal relationships and you know so when I came back to New York, you know, I mean, that was a big thing is that, um, you know, I met Lucy right around the same time that my friend Adam died. And then, and I just had this epiphany that I was like, man, there's, you know, there's this beautiful person here. Um, who's willing to like, take a shot on

you. Like, are you going to keep her at arm's length too you know and uh i was like fuck it man just go for it you know um what's the worst that's gonna happen it's gonna hurt you know and like you've been through that before right um and then when i came back to new york i you know i reconnected with a lot of my old friends and i was just like oh hey i see you're djing at this bar near my house. I'm going to come out. How are you? I'm really bad at getting lunch with people. I'll do shit with people. If there's a job that needs to be done, I'm there.

If you need me to help you move the piano or whatever, I'm there. But if we're just going to sit and talk, just interact, socialize, I can't deal with that. We have to be doing something. Well, that's what we're doing right now. Well, I guess we're doing something now because we're doing a podcast but well there's another purpose going on simultaneously with the conversation yeah yeah but um you know so i'm trying you know i've you know my friend aaron like i've you know he's been for some reason he's been my friend forever he's stuck by me you know so i'm making an effort to reason, he's been my friend forever. He's stuck by me,

you know, so I'm making an effort to just leave, put pants on and leave the apartment once a week to go into the city to meet up with my old friend, Aaron, and talk about whatever, you know, and, you know, just, you know, trying to, it seems so, you know, it seems so ironic, man, that like, to it seems so you know it seems so ironic man that like you know a couple of years ago the problems I was having was like you know not throwing up in the morning or like you know not doing shots or um not drinking or keeping a job and now I'm getting it down to like, you know, my big struggle is being more social and talking to people and letting people in. It's called quality problems. You have quality problems these days.

These are so much harder. I know. What am I going to do with my beautiful girlfriend this weekend? I know, right? I have zero sympathy for myself. What is my next writing project? I need to do with my beautiful girlfriend this weekend? I know, right? I have zero sympathy for myself. What is my next writing project? I need to call my agent and talk to him about that. Because I was really good about either not throwing up when I had to throw up or throwing up on the sly, like in between the cars on the train or something like that. Well, my favorite throwing up episode in the book

is when you have no money and you're drinking a 40 and you're so sick and you're feeling like you're gonna throw up and you throw up into the 40 bottle because you don't wanna lose all the booze that's in your belly and then you drink it back down again. Mom, I'm sorry. She's read it. I'm so sorry. I'm just sorry for everything i've been there i've

swallowed more than my fair share of cigarette butts and half empties laying around the bar you know i've done that i mean you know when i lived in new york city i made i mean i was you know drinking really heavily and partying a lot and had zero money so it was all about like where's the reception with the free beer and So it was all about like, where's the reception with the free beer and the free food and crashing wedding. And then where's the happy hour thing where you can get, you know, as much booze for as little money as possible and carrying that out, you know, throughout the whole night until you're in some bar or club and there's half empty sitting around all over the place and surreptitiously trying to drink those without people noticing.

And of course, you know, ending, you end up doing it and swallowing cigarette butts like they happen all the time we did uh we came up with two drinks one was the uh the matador where you take the bar mats when you're cleaning up at the end of the night and pour pour off the bar mats into a glass. That's the matador. That I did not do. We had, I mean, this is shit we did on dares, but then we had the slop bucket that we would put like the dead drinks in and that was the phantom of the slopra.

That's where he would drink out of the slop bucket. I was an animal. I was a fucking animal. I'm so glad that I don't live that way anymore. It's exhausting too. I know. I know. I think about,

you know, and people say like, how do you, how do you stay sober? I have a good memory. I remember what it was like waking up after those nights, you know, and like your hands are frozen into claws or you have broken glass stuck in you somewhere or just sure that that memory remains in the forefront of

my consciousness because, because I'll, I forget, you know, like I need to be reminded of what it was like because my life is really good right now. And so I don't think about it that much. And if I'm not reminded, it's very easy to forget. And then once I've forgotten what it was like, then it's very easy to slowly start to regress. Yeah. Yeah. And the longer you kind of stick around, then that becomes more of a pressing reality. oppressing reality. The, uh, do you, do you still get acute cravings like from time to time, or do you find yourself thinking about, Oh, one glass of wine or that kind of shit?

Once in a while. It's not something that like haunts me. Um, it doesn't happen that often, but it does occasionally occur, but it's not like an obsession it's something that comes and goes relatively quickly and uh and so it's about being able to kind of notice it for what it is and taking the appropriate actions to not like sort of you know delve into that and explore that you know idea in your mind so that it doesn't start to grow roots yeah yeah a lot of that is like picking up the phone you know what i mean and calling somebody else like i can't if i isolate with that then that's not a healthy place for me to be the weird thing is like you know the thought of meeting up with a friend and talking about like my feelings or problems at home or something like that just like gives me hives but I don't need to talk

about my feelings with my friends in order to feel better if I mean I have awesome friends they're fucking hilarious you know and getting lunch with you know my friend Billy who's just takes profanity to a new level he's uh he'sish and he just has this gift for saying the worst vilest most fucked up things it's amazing and i could i could sit down with him and we can talk about you know that's great for our health and fitness podcast here we could just talk about just construction and like you know something like that and i'll feel better just from hearing his voice just from having connection with him and just from like the back and forth like you know, something like that. And I'll feel better just from hearing his voice, just from having connection with him and just from like the back and forth, like, you know, ribbing each other. Um, I don't have to talk about the heavy stuff, you know, you know, in order to have the connection. I understand that, but you are connecting with him in a

different way. But I think that the cliche is also true that you're only as sick as your secrets. And when you're harboring, like, you know, as an, as an alcoholic, that become, can become a very acute scenario. If you're sort of, you know, keeping things to yourself and holding them in and that, that will lead you back to a place you don't want to go. Well, I think, you know, that I have no secrets. You read the last story. You might have a few still. We'll have to come back for podcast four, find out what those are. I'm going to peel back another layer.

I don't know if I can take it, dude. You're like, your skin has been peeled off. I get so raw during these, dude. I've never talked to anybody about the cutting thing, much less on something that's going to be broadcast. It's just us, man. No one's listening. Just me and you and the NSA. That's right. Uh, well, I appreciate you, um, opening up about that. I mean, I think that, that in the balance of things, I mean, look, there's always going to be trolls and snark and online anonymous commentators who like to, you know, throw arrows and all that kind of thing. But in the, in the balance of things, you know, the response has been overwhelmingly, um,

positive and you've been embraced for your willingness to, to be so vulnerable. And it takes a tremendous amount of courage to do that. And you have a gift for doing it in a way that makes us all able to relate to it. So I understand that you don't want to, you know, it's time to, as a writer, you have to grow, right? What's the next thing? Like you can't keep doing the same thing.

You've got to do something else. And I'm excited to see what that's going to be. Me too. I don't know what it is. But when I find out, I'll let you know. All right, cool. Well, hopefully we'll figure out something to write together because I would like to do that. Let's absolutely do it.

Right on, man. So we should probably wrap this up. Let's eat. Yeah, you want to eat? We're going to go meet John Joseph for dinner. That's going to be awesome. So sober musician, athlete, New York city dweller,

right? Yeah. You haven't met him before. Have you? No, I haven't. I'm, I'm totally psyched,

man. I mean, I feel like between you and John Joseph, it's like the alpha and omega hardcore, man. I mean, that guy, you know,

he's, he's awesome, man. Yeah. I'm, I'm totally psyched. It's going to be great. Cool.

So the Kindle single is called Beat the Devil, and you can get it on Amazon, but only if you click through the Amazon banner ad at richroll.com first. For like, what is it? Like, how much does it cost? $1.99? It's $1.99. Oh, maybe your ace sound guy tyler will throw in uh yeah we're gonna my new song we're gonna take it out with the new song what's it called

uh it's called i can't remember when you were mine all right why don't you tell us a little bit about the song um i wrote it 10 years ago 10 years ago no i wrote it 10 years ago. 10 years ago? No, I wrote it eight years ago about Allison. When I moved out, she threw away all the pictures of her and I together. So this song is about having only your memories and then not even having that. So we're going to take it out on a very uplifting note, right? This is such an inspirational podcast that we've had today it's a jam though you can dance to it i swear all right cool so uh beat the devil and can you but can people buy your music yeah yeah the the uh the new song is up um and just mishka shibali on iTunes or where should they do that

yep just search my name on iTunes I'm on Bandcamp CD Baby everywhere all that kind of stuff and on Twitter

Mishka Shibali yep Facebook all that kind of stuff everything if it exists I got it you and I are friends

on Pinterest yeah Pinterest alright and so look for his new band coming out soon, right? Yeah. That's the moral of the story today.

Yeah. Geezers United. Right. All right, dude. The Rich Roll Podcast with Mishka Volume 3. Wrapping up here, right? Yep. All right, man.

Thanks for doing it. Thanks. All right. Peace. Plants. crap if I die now will they ever get unpatched? Boxes and boxes of unlabeled crap if I die now they will never get unpatched I can't remember when you were mine 2003, 2005, 1989, 1989 Sweet child of mine

And that nightstand I built for you Is it lonely for me alone in your bedroom? Does it cry at night or does it understand as you tremble underneath your new man's hands? I can't remember when you were mine. I can't remember when you were mine 2003 feels like 1989 Sweet Charlemagne Sweet child of mine All those messages that you've been receiving

That I can't remember leaving. It's a small relief still. It's a good thing. You're deleting without listening. They disappear like pennies. Down a wishing well tiny good intentions on the road to hell but I'll go bankrupt

and that well will overflow before you'll forgive me and let me come home I can't remember when you were mine No, I can't remember when you were mine No, I can't remember when you were mine. when you were mine No, I can't remember when you were mine

No, I can't remember when you were mine 2003 feels like 1989 All right, people, that's it. Thanks a lot. Thanks for stopping by. Thanks for lending an ear. I hope you enjoyed the episode.

Hope you enjoyed Mishka. I thought it went pretty well. I love that guy. He's awesome. Leave a comment at richka. I thought it went pretty well. I love that guy. He's awesome. Leave a comment at richroll.com and tell us what you think. And if you have an extra minute, leave a comment on the iTunes page for the podcast. The comments there help us out a lot. And we appreciate all the great feedback that you guys have been giving us.

If you want to support the Plant Power Mission, best way to do that is to use the Amazon banner ad at richroll.com. You got to do all this shopping for the holidays, right? You're probably going to use Amazon. Well, click through the banner ad. Won't cost you a penny extra on your purchases, not one penny extra, and it will not even take you any extra time. But Amazon kicks us some loose change, and that puts wind in our sails.

So thank you for everybody that's been doing that. We appreciate that tremendously. Also, if you want, you can donate to the podcast, too. We have a donate function at richroll.com. So throw us a little support that way. You can do it on a one-time basis, weekly basis, monthly basis. You set the terms. And thank you to everybody who's doing that.

That means a lot to me that you would voluntarily do that. This show is free. It will always be free. It's up to you. But we thank all of you for that. We've got products at richroll.com. We've got a cookbook, digital e-cookbook. We have a meditation program.

We have my Jai Repair post-workout recovery supplement. We have a vitamin B12 spray. B12 is really important, especially if you're on a plant-based diet. It's the one thing that you really need to make sure that you're supplementing with because you cannot get B12 on plants only. It's the one thing that you've got to make sure that you stay on top of. So it's a great supplement. Check that out.

And what else? We have t-shirts coming soon. I feel like a broken record saying this, but we're really trying to revamp the website in the right way. And that takes time. That takes effort. I've got a great team of web guys working on it.

And I've seen the proofs for the new site and what it's going to look like and it's amazing but it's just taking a little bit longer we wanted to have the t-shirts up in time for christmas i'm not sure that is going to happen uh unfortunately i know i've been getting a lot of messages from you guys who who you know people out there that want to get them as gifts etc um i would rather uh when I put the site up, have everything be functioning perfectly than rush it and get it up and have orders get screwed up and all that kind of stuff. I'm not going to do that. So it will go up when it goes up. Most likely January

1st is our absolute deadline goal. But it's going to be a cornucopia of amazing stuff. We're going to start putting up more and more products over time and really build it out. And I'm excited about the future with that. So I'll keep you apprised on the development there. If you want to learn more about how to eat plant-based, you want to be plant-powered, I get a lot of messages all the time. How do you do it? What do you eat before you work out? What do you eat after you work out? How do you make it work with kids? What do you do when you travel? How did you do it when you were in Morocco?

How did you do it when you were in Bahrain? All of these questions. I took all the top questions that I get all the time, and we put it all into this program, this online educational program that Julie and I did called The Ultimate Guide to Plant-Based Nutrition. And you can find it at mindbodygreen.com or there's a banner ad on my website that i'll click you over to it it's three and a half hours of streaming online video content broken down into five to

ten minute segments each little video on a specific subject matter with a forum beneath each video for questions and discussion about how to do it. And I'm really proud of it. The production quality is very, very high. And I encourage all of you who want to learn more to check that out, whether you've been vegan plant-based for a long time, or you're just curious about whether or not you might want to do this, or maybe you just want to get more plants into your diet, regardless of whatever your dietary protocol is. We all need to eat more vegetables in our diet.

And despite what you might have heard, I believe we need more fruits, legumes, all these good wholesome, whole foods into our diet. And this is a good roadmap on how to do it. So check that out, mindbodygreen.com. All right, you guys, we're out of here. Thank you so much for all the feedback on the best of episode. We're excited about 2014.

We're gonna rock it. We're gonna take everything up to the next level. I got some great guests coming up and thank you so much for the support. It means a lot to me. It means a lot to my team. And I'm wishing all of you guys a wonderful, happy, safe, healthy, plant-powered holiday season. All right.

Peace. Plants. Thank you.