The Rich Roll Podcast - On Letting Go Of Perfectionism & Why We Should “Lean In” To Positive Change

Episode Date: October 20, 2014

I say it all the time. Change is not an overnight miracle, people. I know there's nothing like the neatly packaged narrative of the overnight success story, but honestly that’s just well, not that honest. The truth is that long-lasting, sustainable personal growth is never instantaneous. It’s messy. Non-linear. Two steps backwards for every step in the right direction. It’s forged out of self-experimentation, research, discomfort, failure, courage, and all too often a lot of stumbling around in the dark. The point? It’s not a clean line. We don’t have to hold on to this perfectionist ideal. In fact, it’s this ideal that generally hold us back. Paralyzes us. Or leads to self-defeatism when we fall short of idealized goals. When I began the process of repairing my health, I made a million mistakes. Slipped up countless times. And when I committed to getting fit, Ultraman didn't even qualify as a fantasy because I had never heard of it. I just wanted to be able to run a mile. Goals and success came later. I was able to get off the dime because I just started. Implicit in this was the permission I gave myself to fail. Let go of perfection. Whether the change you seek is related to diet, fitness, career, finances, education or some specific skill set, the important thing is to allow yourself to just begin, and begin messy. You don’t have to know where anything is leading. You don’t have to change evertything overnight. And the steps you take don’t have to be plotted, overthought or even pretty. But you do have to start. Or as today’s guest suggests, Lean In… My friend Kathy Freston is a 4-time New York Times bestselling author of The Lean, Veganist, Quantum Wellness and Quantum Wellness Cleanse. She has appeared frequently on national television, including The Oprah Winfrey Show, Ellen, The Dr. Oz Show, The View, Good Morning America, Charlie Rose, The Martha Stewart Show, and Extra. Her work has been featured notably in Vanity Fair, Harper’s Bazaar, Self, W, and Fitness. In addition, she is a regular contributor to her pal Ariana Huffington's publication, Huffington Post. Back in 2011, it was Kathy’s appearance on Oprah that inspired the great Ms. Winfrey herself – and her entire staff of 378 — to go entirely vegan for 21 days.

Welcome to the Rich World Podcast, episode 109 with Kathy Freston. But before we get into it, sponsor yourself, people. Today's show is brought to you by us, by the Plant Power Evolution Revolution. We all want to be healthier. We want to be fitter, leaner, stronger, more focused, more self-aware, more grounded, more confident. But what to eat, when and why, how to meditate, why should I meditate? And maybe most importantly, how do we become more connected with our highest self?

And how do we put that to work to properly set and achieve the right goals for us? How do we optimize our body, mind, and soul so we can ultimately unlock and unleash our best, most authentic selves? Well, towards this end, we have put together a small collection of the highest quality products, programs, and services to meet these important needs. We've got two courses at mindbodygreen.com, online video courses. The first is called The Ultimate Guide to Plant-Based Nutrition. It's over three hours of streaming video on everything you need to know to get more plant power, to get more plants into your diet. Because irrespective of whatever your dietary proclivities are, we can all benefit from getting more fruits, vegetables, legumes, nuts, and seeds into our diet.

The second course is called The Art of Living with Purpose. Now that we've cleaned up our diet, it's time to put it to work. So this course is all about connecting with the better self within, how to set and achieve the right goal for yourself, and ultimately, again, unlock that best version of yourself. And this one's got about two and a half hours of streaming video content. Both of the courses include an array of downloadable tools and all kinds of resources and a robust online community. So check both of those out again at mindbodygreen.com.

Also at richroll.com, you can find some of our awesome nutritional products like Repair, which is our post-workout athletic recovery supplement. It's robust with plant-based proteins and antioxidants like resveratrol and cordyceps mushroom extracts, which I find to be very helpful in training and optimizing my oxygen utilization and intake, uptake. We also have a product called Ion, which is our electrolyte supplement free of all the sugars and artificial dyes that are found in most electrolyte supplements. So check those out. We also have an e-cookbook, our Jai Seed e-cookbook, 77 pages of awesome plant-based recipes. We have a meditation program called Jai Release. We've got merchandise like t-shirts and hats and beanies so that you can

wear your affiliation with this plant-based movement proudly. We also have flat rate domestic shipping on all products, just $4.99, no matter how big the box is. And don't forget to subscribe to my email list for deals, offers, and sales. We just had a sale. It was $10 off on all t-shirts over this past weekend. So if you were not aware of that, well, it's probably because you were not subscribed to my email list because I sent an email out to everybody about that. We also have an upcoming sale that we're going to be offering over Halloween. So if you want to be in on that, then again, subscribe people. Go to richworld.com today, take your diet, your nutrition

and your life experience to the next level. Okay, now on with the show. The Rich Roll Podcast. All right, you guys, it's time to do it up. My name is Rich Roll. I am your host. Yes, that is my real name. Welcome to my podcast. Thank you for listening. Thank you for spreading the word with your friends.

Thank you for Instagramming all the cool ways and places where you enjoy the show. And thank you for supporting the show by clicking through the Amazon banner ad at richworld.com for all your Amazon purchases. It does not cost you anything extra, but it really helps us out. They throw us some loose commission change. So thank you. We appreciate everybody who has made a habit out of this and who has supported us along this journey in this way. Thank you. If you're new to the RRP, each week I perform a Vulcan mind meld with the best, the brightest, and the most compelling paradigm-busting minds in health, wellness, diet, nutrition, fitness, and creativity, and entrepreneurship. World-class athletes, doctors, nutritionists, startup junkies, artists, and even the occasional triumphant everyman.

Why do I do this? I do this to glean a little insight, a little knowledge, some education, motivation, and inspiration, all designed to help you and me discover, uncover, unlock, and unleash our collective best, most authentic versions of who we are. I say it all the time. of who we are. I say it all the time. Change is not an overnight miracle, people. We love the neatly packaged narrative of the overnight success story. But, you know, honestly, that's just, well, it's just not that honest. Because long lasting, sustainable personal growth just doesn't work that way. It's messy. It's nonlinear. It's two steps backwards for every step in the right direction. And generally, it's forged out of self-experimentation, research, discomfort, failure, courage, and all too often, a lot of stumbling around in the dark.

Most importantly, it's not a clean line. And we do not have to hold ourselves to this perfectionist ideal. In my opinion, it's this ideal that generally holds most people back. It paralyzes us, or it can lead to self-defeatism when we fall short of these idealized goals that we have set for ourselves. So just let it go. Let go of perfection. So just let it go. Let go of perfection. Whether the change you seek is related to diet or nutrition or fitness, profession, money, education, or some specific skill set, the important thing is to allow yourself to just begin. Provide yourself that space. You don't have to know where anything is leading. You don't have to change everything overnight, of course. And the steps you take,

they don't have to be plotted or overthought or even pretty, but you do have to do one thing. And that is you have to start. You have to start somewhere, wherever you are. Or as today's guest suggests, lean in. My friend, Kathy Freston is a four-time New York Times bestselling author. Her latest book is called The Lean. Prior to that, she wrote a book called Veganist. Prior to that, she wrote a book called Quantum Wellness and another book called The Quantum Wellness Cleanse.

and another book called The Quantum Wellness Cleanse. And Kathy has appeared on basically every prominent national television show, including the Oprah Winfrey Show, Ellen, Dr. Oz, The View, Good Morning America, Charlie Rose, The Martha Stewart Show, and Extra. Her work has been featured notably in Vanity Fair, Harper's Bazaar, Self, W, and Fitness Magazine. And she is a regular contributor to her friend Ariana Huffington's publication, aptly titled

The Huffington Post. Back in 2011, you might recall, if you watch Oprah, that it was Kathy's appearance on that show that inspired the great Ms. Winfrey herself and her entire staff of 378 people to go vegan for 21 days, which was kind of a big deal. And then she followed it up. She does a lot, but in 2014, she did something really interesting that we're going to talk about today. She famously launched a change.org petition campaign that urged McDonald's to debut a vegetarian menu item. And this is a petition that went viral and very well may lead to the desired outcome, which that would be kind of a seismic shift and a great example of using the system, leveraging the system,

working within the system to disrupt paradigms, which is pretty interesting. I met the delightful and beautiful Miss Kathy Freston several years ago, and I've always wanted to have her on the show. So today is a treat. And what I like about her is her very easygoing, accessible approach to helping people make long-lasting, sustainable shifts in their diet and their lifestyle.

Because everything about Kathy's style is extremely inviting, it's grounded, and it's very understanding and compassionate with respect to the stressors and the limiters that envelop the typical modern day busy life. Hence her coined term and the title of her most recent book, The Lean, which loosely translated essentially means progress, not perfection. Progress, not perfection. So today we sit down, we hash out her personal journey, what led her to becoming one of the most visible, prominent, and persuasive voices in the plant-based movement, as well as effective strategies that we can all leverage to develop a healthier, happier, more plant-powered approach

to diet and to life. A little side note, I confess to be having a little bit of a bromance with Kathy's boyfriend, Dan Buechner, who is most definitely a man after my own heart, I must say. Dan is an extraordinary and accomplished educator and explorer and an ultra endurance athlete who essentially circumnavigated a large portion of the globe on a bike. He holds three world records in endurance cycling. And in addition, he's a wellness warrior and a groundbreaking author in his own right. If you have heard of the term blue zones, then you've heard of Dan because Dan is the guy who coined the term, which is the title of his New York Times bestselling book called, you guessed it, The Blue Zones, Lessons for Living Longer from the people who've lived the longest. And I'm

saying this now because I'm hoping to get Dan on the show sometime this winter, next time he's in Los Angeles. So stay tuned for that. And we talk a little bit about Dan on the show today as well. So anyway, until then, let's jump into the beautiful world of Kathy Preston. We're brought to you today by recovery.com. I've been in recovery for a long time. It's not hyperbolic to say that I owe everything good in my life to sobriety. And it all began with treatment and experience that I had that quite literally saved my life. And in the many years since, I've in turn helped many suffering addicts and their loved ones find treatment. I've in turn helped many suffering addicts and their loved ones find treatment. And with that, I know all too well just how confusing and how overwhelming and how challenging it can be to find the right place and the right level of care, especially because unfortunately, not all treatment resources adhere to ethical practices.

It's a real problem. A problem I'm now happy and proud to share has been solved by the people at recovery.com who created an online support portal designed to guide, to support, and empower you to find the ideal level of care tailored to your personal needs. They've partnered with the best global behavioral health providers to cover the full spectrum of behavioral health disorders, including substance use disorders, depression, anxiety, eating disorders, gambling addictions, and more. Navigating their site is simple. Search by insurance coverage, location, treatment type, you name it. Plus, you can read reviews from former patients to help you decide. Whether you're a busy exec, a parent of a struggling teen, or

battling addiction yourself, I feel you. I empathize with you. I really do. And they have treatment options for you. Life in recovery is wonderful, and recovery.com is your partner in starting that journey. When you or a loved one need help, go to recovery.com and take the first step towards recovery. To find the best treatment option for you or a loved one, again, go to recovery.com. I'm so interested in your story and your journey. And I think if I tried to encapsulate kind of what you're all about, it's a very, you put out like a very kind of open, nonjudgmental welcome mat for people to kind of step into a new way of connecting with food and healthy lifestyle. Is that accurate? I try to. Yeah, I try to.

As opposed to kind of preaching to the vegan choir, I suppose. It's more concern and compassion for just the average person out there. Yeah, well, I was the average person. I'm still the average person in a whole lot of ways. And I think that if someone approached me with a dogmatic point of view and that I should be doing this and I wasn't doing this enough and they were being really judgmental, I probably would have rejected them wholesale. Because unfortunately, with the message is the messenger. So the messenger has to be fairly

responsible. Because if you are obnoxious, then people will reject what you have to say just because of who you are. So I think it's really important to be someone who is warm and welcoming and approachable and informative in a way that's not threatening or obnoxious. And I think the movement away from eating animals has become more of that vibe. And I think the movement away from eating animals has become more of that vibe. And I think that's a good bit of why things are picking up steam. Yeah. I mean, the movement is, you know, just even in the last year, let alone last five years, it's amazing to see how mainstream it has become and continues to be. And I think it's because of people like yourself who don't fit, you know, the sort of stereotype that people conjure up in their mind about,

you know, what's somebody like this, you know, what their lifestyle is like or what their priorities are like. And, you know, for me, when I began, you know, if you said the word vegan, you know, I immediately, there was an image that would pop into my mind about a certain person that is totally fine, but it wasn't something that I identified with. And I think that that was, you know, maybe I would have been keen to try it sooner had there been sort of spokespeople out there that I had a better or easier time relating to. And you're hardly a hippie. No. You know what I mean? I did live in Woodstock.

Oh, you did? Yeah, I did. When did you live in Woodstock? I lived in Woodstock probably 15 years ago. What were you doing there? I had a house up there and an apple orchard and I went hiking. And here's something that people don't know about me is that I used to hunt and fish. And when I... You're a Georgia girl.

Yeah, I'm a Georgia girl. But when I lived up in Woodstock, I was dating this guy who was a hunter and we used to go grouse hunting and we used to go trout fishing. And I did not have the awareness yet. I didn't get it. I didn't actually shoot anything. But, you know, for me, it was, I understand how hunters talk about like you're outdoors and you're in nature. And because that's how I felt. I loved being outdoors and I loved being connected to everything. But I didn't get the part that I was killing an animal, you know. that I was killing an animal, you know?

And so that's why it's really important for me not to be judgmental is because the light bulb goes on when it goes on and you want to present the information in a way that that light bulb is gonna go on. Right. Yeah, I mean, Julie's dad is a major hunter. Like this guy's hunted in Africa and he's hunted in Siberia. And their house, she grew up in Alaska, their house in Alaska.

They just moved to Los Angeles. They're in their 90s now, but had just been living up there on their own until this past winter. And their house is filled with taxidermy, you know, animals and all of this. And, and, you know, it's easy to say, Oh, how could you, you know, do that? But, you know, he's somebody who connected to nature in that way. And I think he has an appreciation for animal life and the, the ecosystem in a way that most people don't. So it's important to not reserve or, or to reserve judgment about those kinds of things, I think. And understand that different people have different ways of connecting to the environment and nature.

And let's remember, it's a big change. I mean, this is a cultural shift that's been happening at breakneck speed. And our parents grew up eating meat and wearing everything and not thinking twice about it. So, you know, we're breaking out of a centuries long mold. So we got to take it easy. Right. Somebody's cell phone's going off. Is that your ringtone? I just want to be happy. That's cool. You can just let it ring out. You need to get it. No, that's okay.

It's okay. I like it. It's a soundtrack, you know. I know. It's appropriate. I figured I want the good energy whenever I can get it. I like it. Yeah.

A little Pharrell for the podcast. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. So how does it all start for you, though? Where does this shift begin? The shift for me, you know, I was writing about relationships. My first couple books were about waking up in terms of relationships and using relationships as a vehicle to become more conscious, to become deeper human beings. And I sort of spread that awareness into meditation and self-work and friendships and relationships.

And then I thought, well, the thing that I do all the time every day is eat. And I didn't have any awareness around my food. So I thought I'm kind of being a hypocrite because I'm talking about awareness and deepening and being more and more conscious, and I just don't have any consciousness around food. So if I'm a meat eater, and I certainly was a meat eater, I need to be aware of how that meat got to me. So I charged myself with the task of watching videos and listening to behind-the-scenes accounts of slaughterhouses, and then I would be free to choose to eat meat.

I wouldn't be ignorant about it and in the dark about it. So as I saw those videos, I was so deeply, deeply disturbed. I just thought, I don't want to be someone who adds to this horrible process out there. But at the same time, I don't want to be someone who adds to this horrible process out there. But at the same time, I don't want to gain weight. I don't want to die a decade earlier because we all know we need meat to be healthy and strong and all that stuff. And, you know, but I'm just going to lean toward being a person who doesn't eat as much meat. And so that's my whole philosophy of leaning into it.

And of course, as I started studying the science of what makes you healthy and live long, I learned that eating a plant-based diet is what would keep me healthy, would prevent diseases. I'd probably live eight years longer, if not 10. And all the things that I worried about actually took care of themselves as I switched over my diet. But if you told me, a girl from Georgia who ate meat and dairy and eggs at least three times a day- Chicken fried steak. Chicken fried steak, barbecued ribs. I mean, you know, all that stuff

was, it was in my blood. It was my culture. It was the stuff that made me happy. And I would have been at a total loss if you told me that I was going to be someone not eating anything from an animal. So I just took my time and I leaned into this new way of being. And little by little, I learned to make a meal here, where to shop there, you know, how to talk about it. And I got my feet wet. I got comfortable, leaned a little farther. And it probably took me a couple of years to move totally away from animal products. What's really interesting is that, you know, your first couple books, I mean, The One and Expect a Miracle, I mean,

these are not, I mean, people know you as this sort of spokesperson for the vegan movement. Like that's kind of the public persona, at least right now, but that's not how you started. You published two books about completely different subjects and really your shift is really a spiritual shift because it was the embrace of meditation that really kind of created this domino effect that led you to where you are now. Like it goes back to that. Yeah, and I think the whole spiritual process

is about growth. It's about awareness and deepening and expanding. And even my first books, you know, were a different kind of spirituality that I've probably grown out of since then. You know, it was more about turning over your power to prayer and things like that. And as I've gone a little farther in my life, I think, well, you know, I think it's got to be in the individual to make changes.

It's, yes, we've got to be aware that there's something bigger than ourselves, but we have to make these changes ourselves because if we don't do it, who else is going to? You know, I've got to affect my home. I've got to affect my family. I've got to be someone in my community that is going to shop differently, order differently, speak differently, dress differently. And if I'm not doing that, then that's one less person in the community who's going to be making that change. Right, right. So when you first started to kind of lean into this new way of eating and you're embracing meditation and these spiritual

practices, I mean, did you feel, did that feel like something that was isolating you from your friends in the community? I mean, probably, we're in Los Angeles, so everyone's kind of all about it. But I think that's a big barrier for a lot of people. It's something that scares them or they don't want to be marginalized. Yeah, I think that's been a big part of being vegan. I know a lot of people talk about feeling alienated and not part of things, but it's been kind of a great experience for me, actually. I've really enjoyed being someone who is not eating meat and talking about it. I kind of think it's an honor in a way.

And it was uncomfortable at first because I didn't have all my answers figured out in my head. I was wearing leather and I remember this guy was like, oh yeah, you're not eating meat? What's on your feet? You're such a hypocrite. And I was like, blah, blah, blah. Now I would say, would say hey listen it's all about progress not perfection and we're all doing the best we can and i haven't gotten there yet i happen to not wear leather anymore you know i've i've moved farther in that direction but

in the beginning i didn't know what to say and i felt like, you know, I was under attack sometimes. But now it's kind of, I enjoy it. I'm really happy to be part of a community that I think is forward thinking and making a positive difference. I'm proud to be there. Yeah, it's an evolution. You know, I remember years ago, uh, Lisa Lang from PETA reached out to me. I was training for my second Ultraman and she wanted to come out and interview me for PETA and, uh, which is great. And she's awesome. And it was super cool. I'm going to

have her on the podcast soon. Actually, I'm interviewing her tomorrow. Um, but yeah, she's great. But I remember when she was coming over with this crew of people that were going to make this video. And, you know, on our floor, we have this huge calfskin rug and we had a couch that was made out of leather. Like this is, you know, I'm like a year and a half into this process. And these are things that we've always had. I mean, I think that rug came from Julie's dad. And I remember I was like, should I be embarrassed? Should we hide it? You know, like, what is she going to like get mad? You know, like, I don't know what the response is. And I remember having a really interesting conversation with her where I was like, what is the, what is the, you know,

ethical thing to do? Should we just continue to use this until it wears out? Because at least that's respecting, you know, it's already done, right? So tossing it in the garbage is that, that might be less respectful than just continuing to use it. And, you know, she had a really, really kind of measured, compassionate response. And she's like, there's no right answer. You know, you have to do what you feel is right. And, you know, I was buying leather goods and all that kind of stuff. And, you know, I don't do that anymore.

But, you know, it doesn't happen overnight. No, and it shouldn't happen overnight because you've got a lot of people who go back the other direction, you know, that they turn vegan. And then they just say it was too hard and I didn't feel good and it was just too alienating. And so when you go that way all of a sudden overnight and you make all these decisions, then you kind of feel like you're out in the woods on your own. Whereas if you do it slowly, leaning in, those decisions become clear. They become self-evident, you know. I remember my decision was, I'm just not going to buy any more leather. You know, I kind of made it a sport to find

non-leather things, but I had that same question, like, what am I going to do with all my shoes? And what's the answer? Do I have to give them away? Yeah. You probably have a lot of shoes. I've got a lot of shoes, I got to tell you. It was easier for me to give up steak than my normal blonics. Yeah, I know. So what did you do? Well, I allowed myself to keep wearing them. But a funny thing happened. I would put them on and I was like, I don't feel great about it. Well, now it's plastered on your forehead like you're the vegan person.

So when you go out into the world, people know you as that. So what are you supporting and what are you saying no to? Right, exactly. But even before that supporting and what are you saying no to? Right, exactly. But even before that, and I think it's interesting, you know, now I do stand for that and so publicly, but it's, you know, I think there's something within us that is asked to rise. And like the hardest things I've ever had to do and that I've struggled with have been giving up eating animals and giving up leather. But boy, when I did them, great things happened. Just the world opened up.

It was amazing. I mean, I wrote books about it, but I wouldn't have planned that. So there's something to be said for pushing yourself past that comfort zone. It's like, yes, lean, for sure, lean into something. But push yourself, too. Because there's something that happens inside that you feel so empowered that you can put aside your craving, your desire to taste something or wear something or some vanity thing, that you're willing to do it for a greater good. That feels really good. And that confidence will lead to other things, whether it's you're inspired to write a book or give a talk

or you have ideas about starting other companies or whatever. But when you push yourself past the comfort zone, it's like, you know, the hero's journey is just like Joseph Campbell talked about when you go through that difficulty and you're up against all your inward stuff, you know, that wants to just keep you in that comfortable zone of no movement. It's hard as hell, but it's so rewarding. Yeah, it's a super important point. I mean, look, if you want to run a marathon, then you're going to have to get up early in the morning and get out and go running when it's dark out. You have to set aside certain creature comforts in order to achieve whatever goal that you have. And I think

that when people look at adopting a plant-based diet, they look at it from a perspective of deprivation. And it's almost this ascetic thing, like I'm going to have to be this sort of food monk. And, you know, I'm never going to eat anything that tastes good again. Certainly that's not the reality. We can both attest to that. But there is sort of a weathering of, you know, getting through that cycle of cravings and getting to the other side. But there is a sense of, you know, self-esteem and satisfaction that comes with that, that I think really profoundly in my case, and I think in yours as well, shifted my consciousness, you know, and set me on a new trajectory. I mean, like yourself, I didn't think I would be writing books or sitting

here having a podcast. You know, I was a corporate lawyer. You know, I was going to be a big producer in Hollywood or whatever. Isn't it funny how life takes you? I would have never in a million years predicted it, but I couldn't be happier. I feel great about what I'm doing. I'm sure you do as well. Yeah. you know, kind of taking to task this idea that, you know, our lives should all be about comfort and security and challenging that, you know, because we're here to grow.

We're here to grow. And in order to grow, you have to try new things. You have to get out of your comfort zone. You have to, and you have to allow yourself to fail. And so when I think of your philosophy of lean in, really what I see is a tabling of this perfection concept that I think really hamstrings people. And it goes to what you said, like that thing of, oh, it was too hard or I couldn't do it. Well, that's because you set yourself up to fail because you were holding yourself to some perfection standard. And you're flogging yourself and saying, I can't do it. And then you lose your enthusiasm for it.

And then you're just back to doing whatever you were doing before. And I think that's a little bit of a glitch in our movement sometimes is there are people that feel like we should be perfect. And they, you know, there are some people in the movement that would beat up other people if they're not perfect enough. You know, if they're not eating perfectly unprocessed, plant-based, non-GMO, organic food, you know. And if they're not wearing the ideal thing, well, that's pretty damn hard. And I bless you if you can be perfect, especially right out of the gate. I certainly couldn't.

And I know that with every passing month and year, I do refine my diet more and more, and I refine my way of living more and more, but it's at a pace that's comfortable for me. If I felt like in the beginning, if I could never have processed food, I wanted that bulk of sort of the protein that I was used to, like whether it was chicken or a burger or whatever. So if I felt like I could get a plant-based chicken or burger instead of the animal-based ones, I'm going to do it and I'm going to feel good about it. And I think that's a really important thing. I mean, it may not be ideal, it's not rice and beans, but it's so much healthier and it's so much more kind and compassionate. And then as I get more comfortable

there, I'm going to say, you know what? I'm going to lean more toward lentils and beans and stuff like that. And little by little, I'm going to get healthier. Yeah. And if you break up with your boyfriend and you're unhappy and you have to wake up in the middle of the night and eat a pint of Haagen-Dazs, that doesn't mean that you abandon this whole journey altogether. You just say, all right, well, I did that. Like, what am I going to do tomorrow? Let me, you know, and just not be so hard on yourself, I think. Progress, not perfection.

Yeah, I think that, and I've talked about this many times on the podcast, but the plant-based movement, the vegan movement is very fractionalized. There's all these, like, camps underneath this umbrella. And there's a lot of arguing that goes on, you know, and bickering and battling about what's best and what's right and what's not right. You know, whether you're fruitarian, 80-10-10 or, you know, whatever, all of these sorts of things, right? Yeah. And I think that the general public at large perceives that and is turned off by all of that.

And they say, well, they can't even get their act together. And it's confusing. It's confusing. It makes it more confusing. And I know that, you know, you take some hits for talking about Gardein and, you know, Earth Balance and Vegenaise and things like this that are really kind of starter foods for people that are dipping their toe into this movement. And, you know, I think it's important to speak to the general public as you do in a compassionate way that says, it's okay, look, you like mayonnaise? Well, why don't you try Vegenaise? Or you got to have butter on your toast? Well, there's this thing called earth balance.

You just can't imagine. You like cheese? You just try some Kite Hill or some Daiya. I mean, there's some wonderful alternatives out there. And not all of them are the healthiest choices in the world, but as you're transitioning and as you're trying to adjust your palate, they're great bridge foods, you know, and even for kids too. So you have to look at it with a long-term view of creating something sustainable that's going to last you for the next several decades, as opposed to,

yeah, I tried vegan for 30 days and it didn't work out. Yeah, it was too hard, exactly. Hold the intention of moving away from eating animals and their stuff. Right. And then you go in that direction. And little by little, we bring ourselves into a healthier diet and we bring up our community as we get lighter and lighter. Yeah, if you're a 300-pound linebacker in the NFL who's thinking about going vegan, you can't tell that guy he can't eat protein bars and a Gardein sausages when he's been eating sausages every morning for his whole life.

Like he's got to slowly adapt. Otherwise, it's too hardcore, I think. Oh, my God. Otherwise it's too hardcore, I think. Oh my God. My friends who I grew up with in Georgia, if I tried to bring them to a super healthy place where it was all raw vegan, they would hate it. They would totally hate it. But if I took them to a place like Veggie Grill and they could get the Santa Fe Crispy Chicken Burger, which is plant-based and it's going to be hearty and just feel like it's super fulfilling. Yeah, it's familiar. They're going to say, I could do this. This is doable for me.

Right. A great recent example is this Stanford professor who just came up, he's like a mad scientist. I know you know about this guy who came up with the taste of blood that could be infused into these plant-based meat alternatives. And they sort of have the taste and consistency of beef, I suppose. Like, I don't know, I can't remember his name. Patrick Brown. Patrick Brown. His company is called Impossible Foods. And it's controversial. You know, a lot of plant-based people are like, why would you even spend any time trying to make something that tastes like that? But, but for somebody who's transitioning, if you can create a burger that tastes like a burger, that's a win for the world, you know? And I think even on your Facebook page, you said your favorite quote in the article was that...

The business of livestock has become archaic. Antiquated. Yeah. Because if you think about it... Antiquated technology. Antiquated technology. It's like we used to hunt whales because we needed the oil for our lanterns. And then electricity was invented or discovered, you know?

And whale oil became obsolete and ridiculous. Now you look back and you just think, whoa, people had to go out on ships for these long voyages and harpoon these gigantic fish and squeeze them for their oils. And I mean, that's just like crazy. I mean, it seems so ridiculous, the waste of resources. But now we have electricity and it's the same thing. Yes, you don't need it. We don't need that. We're raising billions and billions of animals using so many resources,

water and grains and things that could be feeding humans, and we're dirtying up our planet. And for me, and I'm sure for you and a lot of people seeing these animals suffer, I mean, it's just insane for the amount of calories that, that are useful that we get out of it. So it's becoming an untenable, antiquated thing. And it's just, you know, if you want to be an activist, I would say start a company. Provide alternatives. Right.

Like the guys at Beyond Eggs and Beyond Meat. Because it's technology, I think, that is going to solve this problem. And what's cool is just the use of the word tech. Like when you say livestock is an antiquated tech. Yeah. That's changing the vernacular and the perspective on the whole thing. Like just table the ethical argument completely and just look at it from a pure economic and sort of use of resources perspective. And livestock doesn't make sense.

It's not sustainable. It's a capitalist world. It requires an insane amount of resources. It leaves, you know, this incredibly deleterious imprint on the planet across our oceans and everything. Like you just look at it and you're like, why are we doing this? This makes no sense.

But the only way we're going to really change is if technology can come up with alternatives that are satisfying to people that are cheaper because they use less resources. And that's what's going to create are cheaper because they use less resources. And, and that's what's going to create a seismic change, I think. And so when you see people like Biz Stone from Twitter and Bill Gates and all these people investing millions of dollars into these technologies, you see this is, this is a, this is happening, you know, and it's exciting.

And wait till the insurance companies get ahold of this stuff too. Because it's just like with smoking, you know, the insurance companies ended up paying for all the damage, all the disease. Once it really becomes clear what we're doing to ourselves, that we're killing ourselves through obesity-related diseases like, you know, type 2 diabetes and heart disease and all that, it's going to be economically imperative to force change. I mean, we're a capitalist society and it is going to become clear that if we want to go in the direction of making money, saving money, it just is untenable. Right, and it's happening. I mean, if you're a CEO of a Fortune 500 company, you're looking at your healthcare costs and you're just vomiting in your wastebasket every night because it's just muddy down the drain.

And so you're seeing these larger companies and even smaller companies bringing in people like yourself to come and speak or create programs that are creating a healthier workforce because you can't be economically viable when your workforce is sick and you're paying for, you know, these insane healthcare costs to keep people alive. Yeah. So you've got companies that are interested in it now and get it and people are, there's a groundswell of, of people who want to get healthier and change, but it's still not totally easy to eat that way. And let's be really honest. That's the truth. It's not. And I love it when people say, it's super easy.

You just do this. You just do that. And yes, it's definitely doable. But if you live somewhere in the Midwest or in a small town or you travel a lot or you're in foreign countries, whatever, it's not easy. It takes some doing. So, you know, with this swelling of interest and people who are intending to go this direction, when the availability of easy, affordable food, plant-based food is out there, then this movement is going to take off exponentially.

And so if you're someone who's interested in fanning the flames, invent the alternatives, start the restaurants, you know, supply things to stores, make it easier because that's going to make a real difference. Yeah. I mean, we live in a capitalist society and profitability, it still carries the day. So create a profitable business that, that creates a, you know, a healthier, more accessible, more affordable alternative. Yeah. You know, that's, that's the way it's going to get solved. It's not going to get solved from browbeating people and telling them they're bad people because it's just not, it doesn't work. No. You know? Mm-mm. So then what led to this idea of writing a book about it, the first book that, you know, was really kind of plant-based focused well i wrote a book called quantum wellness and it was it was about sort of the wellness across the board body mind and soul and so i wrote the eight pillars what are the eight pillars of wellness well there's meditation

introspection you know self-work service. But one of the pillars... It's sounding like an AA meeting. Yeah, well, I love the 12 steps. I'm a big fan of the 12 steps. Everybody should work the steps, I think. Yeah, it's, you know, I did the 12 steps for a long time. I still, they live inside of me. I'm an old Alan on myself.

And which is where the progress, not perfection comes from. You know, where I first heard about that, I thought, wow, that really makes sense. You know, you don't have to be perfect. Just lean in the direction of progress. Wow, that's pretty great. So one of the pillars was conscious eating. And I wrote up a little cleanse and I just, you know, kind of talked about how food is this thing that we all have in our lives and, you know, we don't have a whole lot of consciousness around it.

And I was doing Oprah to promote the book. And we all know what happened with Oprah when she quote unquote bad-mouthed meat. And, uh... Let's recap that a little bit because maybe not everybody knows what happened, but it, it, it, it entailed an interview with Howard Lyman, right? Bad cowboy. So can you lay that out a little bit? He kind of told her what was in a hamburger, what went into a hamburger, and she very offhandedly and casually said, I'm not interested in eating hamburger ever again.

And it was something so simple and so personal as that, just voicing her opinion. She wasn't telling anybody not to ever eat meat again or anything like that. She just sort of offhandedly said it. And the beef industry took her to task and sued her. They freaked out. Yeah, meat slander. You know, there's a law. You can't slander meat.

You can't say anything bad about meat. Isn't that incredible? There are these crazy laws on the books right now that I have. As a lawyer, I look at them and I go, how is this even in the realm of being constitutional? Yeah, it's just amazing. I mean, I look at, as an author, I have to back up what I say. And, you know, everything has to be professionally cited and indisputable. And then I look at what some of these industries come out and say and the wonky science. And I'm

like, wow, how did they get away with that? You know, to your point, being a lawyer. Yeah, I think the law, I'm not sure exactly what the law is, but I think if you say anything that can disrupt the profits of, you know, an agricultural concern, that that is actionable. I'm not sure. I could be totally wrong. I should do some more research on that. Well, I think you're right. And they took action and they took her to court and she fought the good fight and she actually won. But I think it was traumatizing for her. It took years too. I mean, this was a time when Oprah was everything.

When Oprah was on, I mean, what year was that when that happened? Do you remember? I think it was in the 80s, late 80s maybe. I can't remember exactly, but I know it was traumatizing for her. And she talked openly about it. And traumatizing for Howard Lyman who had to spend the rest, you know, the next 15 years defending himself. Have you seen Cowspiracy? Yeah, it's so good.

Right, right, right. It's so good. Howard's in the movie and he talks about that experience. Yeah, I mean, it's talk about David and Goliath. You know, we're talking about giants, these industries, and it's nothing to scoff at or to take lightly. But God bless Oprah.

She fought it. She won. So anyway, years later, I'm on the show and the producers kind of said, stay away from that conversation about meat. That's just not a conversation she's going to want to have. So I was prepared to talk about meditation and conscious relationships and all of that stuff. Well, she went right to it. Wow.

She talked about conscious eating. And I was like, I'm going to go with it. The great O wants to talk about it. I'm going to talk about it. And that sort of lit a fire. So what did you say exactly? I mean, did you address it directly? I mean, the producer must have been freaking out.

They were pretty much in awe, yeah, that she just went for it, you know. But I think she was at a point in her career and is at a point in her career, in her life, that, you know, she sees the bigger picture and she wants to tell the truth and she wants to be authentic and this is a conversation she wanted to have. And it was something she wanted to challenge herself about, you know? And so I answered her questions and talked about my experience. And it just created a huge swelling of conversation and articles were written. What year was this?

Oh, gosh. Maybe 2005, 2006. Right, so this is when you're doing the rounds with Quantum Wellness, that book. Yeah, yeah. Let's just talk about going on Oprah just as a concept. Like, that has to be insane. Yeah, like, what is that like yeah um what i loved about going on oprah was that i felt like i was talking to one person because she gives her full attention to you and i

just zeroed in on her and talked to her as this woman who's very curious and was asking intelligent questions and i didn't think about the nine million people that were watching because that would have freaked me out but how do you not think about that i just didn't i just compartmentalized it and i just thought i'm going to talk to her you know does she come out and do you do like what's the prep like before you go on um they give you uh list you know some questions that she might touch on and and you know but she's she's her own person so she's going to take the interview where she wants to go but i had a basic idea of what she wanted to talk about and then it just kind of went in another direction at a certain point they turned off the cameras and she wanted to

get the pulse of her audience like what they felt about this stuff and she wanted to check in and see you know what people felt and it was surprising how few people understood this whole idea of conscious eating and what was wrong with eating meat and all of this stuff. And so it was really good. I've done several shows with her. And one, when we did the whole veganizing the whole Harpo staff.

Yeah, that was the big one, right? Like 21 day, you got her to agree for her and her staff to go vegan for 21 days. Well, the quantum wellness is when she did the, she went vegan for 21 days and along with a cleanse. And then the next show that I did, they veganized the whole staff and that was for a week. And so that was um people could sign up

if they wanted to it was not obligatory and surprisingly almost everybody thousands of people signed up and it was the dead of winter and the lunchroom you know had all this vegan food still had meat but had vegan food that you still had to pay for. It was not like it was free. And the line was the longest they'd ever seen, ever. And it was snaked out the building and outside in the dead of winter in Chicago. At Harpo, at her studios. Yeah, yeah, for that week.

Because when Oprah says, we're doing this, people fall and they get in line, right? But they had the choice and they wanted to, you know. And it was surprising because some of the biggest successes and, you know, excitements came from the men, these big beefy guys who, remember, Chicago is the home of the stockyards, you know. There's that mentality there that, you know, big beef and that's what's for dinner. And it was the men who really, really got a lot out of it, like felt almost immediately better within a week. They just felt lighter and they felt more clear. Their systems were, you know, moving um they had lost weight in a week and so um i think it was even to her surprise that it was the men right even more than the women and uh

why didn't she stick with it i mean weight's always been a big thing with her like vacillating in her weight right like yeah well she said you know in her she did right? Like... Yeah, well, she said, you know, in her, she did an article, What I Know For Sure in O Magazine, and she said, I will never not be conscious about what I eat again. And, you know, I think she's probably leaning in at her own speed in her own way. But even, you know, a lot of people would criticize her just like they criticize me for not going far enough or she's not going far enough. But I have to say she's done so much for the movement. I mean, she's done two whole shows about this, you know, with me. And she's done other shows with other people. So that's made a whole lot of change, you know.

And I think that we should be so grateful to her for what she's done and continues to do. Yeah, well, change starts at the top, you know, and when you see people like Bill Clinton and, you know, real leaders, you know, adopting this way of eating, that really changes the way people perceive it. And you're somebody who kind of navigates the, you know, the higher echelons of society, I guess I could say, right? Like you're hanging out with some pretty cool people. And these are the people that, you know, set trends and for better or worse, you know, what they're doing is, you know, drives what other people are going to do. Yeah. Right? Yeah.

They do. They do. They are the chattering class for sure. You know, it's funny what makes it, that light bulb go on for some people and, you know, it's different for everybody. And, you know, you look at someone like Ellen and her wife, Portia, it was a bulb that went on for them and they did everything overnight. They just threw out all their leather shoes and they never had meat again. And so that was the speed that they were comfortable in.

They just didn't want to lean in. Right, right, right. So who knows? Everybody has their own. Everybody's different. So who knows? Everybody has their own. Everybody's different. But I think when you kind of take this spiritual perspective of it, when you encourage somebody to lean in, you're inherently saying, I respect you and your journey.

And if you make a few small changes, then I'm sending you into the world. And then that will take you on your own journey and your own trajectory. And more will be revealed to you. And it's up to you to make those choices as you go along the way. Exactly. I think with me, the narrative, the sort of tidy narrative,

if you read some article on the internet about me is that it looks like it was overnight. And it was pretty compressed in time, but it wasn't overnight. There was small changes that were made over a period of a year and a half adapting to this kind of thing. And I think to give people a wide berth and say it's's okay to do that. And by the way, you have a partner

who has made it easy and you guys have done things together and that makes a really great difference. I mean, listen, left to my own devices, like I'm drooling in the gutter, you know, like, so, you know, Julie is, she's, first of all, she's incredibly supportive and encouraging and also an amazing cook. You know, so it's like, I'm, you know, I'm in a winning scenario. And I realize, and I'm compassionate for people that don't have that. There's a lot of people that reach out to me and they're like, you know, I'm interested in doing this, but my wife, my husband, my partner. That's a real thing. My boyfriend, like, they're not into it. Like, how do I do that? And it's like, I'm interested in doing this, but my wife, my husband, my partner, my boyfriend, like they're not into it.

Like, how do I do that? And it's like, I don't have experience with that. So I feel uncomfortable giving advice because I always try to just relate what I've done. And that's hard. And I think I love what you have to say that acknowledging that, you know, trying to say, oh, it's super easy. Like, that's not being honest or authentic about what it is because it does require getting out of your comfort zone and it can be difficult. And there are plenty of things that crop up and happen that can derail you

and that are challenging to circumnavigate. Yeah, absolutely. I just lost my train of thought. It's funny talking about relationships, though. You know, it's almost like if someone doesn't share your set of values, it's hard to, you know, you've got a great relationship when someone witnesses what's important to you and they try to take it in and see things from your perspective. That's a strong relationship. So when Julie was talking to you about this stuff, the fact that you took her seriously, you didn't pat her on the head and say, well, that's nice and I'll try your little veggie

burger. Well, I did that for a while first, to be fair. And she stayed. Yeah. Well, the way it worked out, which is pretty interesting. I think we talked about this at the dinner party the other night was she was always, I mean, Julia has always been more kind of forward thinking and open-minded and into personal growth than I had been despite, you know, being in recovery. I was like, that's my program,

you know, don't tamper with it. You can go do what you want to do. But she was always able to see like a better version of me, like beneath the heaviness that I was carrying around. And she'd lay books on my bed, you know, on my table, you know, the bedside table at night or say, why don't you try this? And I would never, I never like, I never took her up on it, but it was when she detached from, you know, the results of whatever she was doing that I was able to shift. When she really let go and said, I'm going to respect him to, you know, do what he, I love him how he is and he's going to do whatever he's going to do. And that's when it was like, whoa, it's on me. I'm just curious, do you think that you guys would have thrived ultimately, like long term, if you didn't end up going in that direction? Well, that's a great question.

I think that if I had become somebody who was not interested in growing, then that would have been a fundamental problem that probably would have driven us apart over time. Because that's Julie's whole thing, right? She can't be with somebody who just wants to stay static or regress. Like that wouldn't work for her. There's different ways of growing, you know? So I think to the extent that I was willing to try to grow in however way I saw fit for myself, I think that would probably be workable. I mean, look, there's still things that she's into that I'm not into,

you know, like, you know, so we're not going to do it in the same way. But if there's a respect, like I have a respect for her journey, and she has a respect for mine, and she's not trying to live vicariously through my life, nor am I through her. So it's that idea of sovereignty, I think. You know, we're sovereign beings and we work well together and we have a great relationship and we're open, but we're not trying to control each other. And I think ultimately we have a respect for our differences in our approach to how we kind of decide what we're going to explore to grow, I guess.

Well said. Well put. And let me tell you, from the woman's point of view, or maybe it's from just one side of the view that if I was already there, to see your guy make that change is so heartwarming. It's like, oh, I love him. I love him. It feels so good, you know? Because every woman wants to change her man. No, no, no, no.

Like what is this primal female thing? No, no, no, no. It's like, oh my God, we are meeting in this really profound place of awareness and mission. And like, you know, we get each other. We're on the same page. There's something really powerful about that.

So how's it working with you and Dan? So he's leaning in. Is he? Yeah, like so. Just so your boyfriend is Dan Buechner. Is that how you say his last name? Buechner. By the way, he's an incredible guy.

Like I could have talked to him all day and all night. Yeah. You guys are kind of cut from the same cloth. We're simpatico completely. And if you're listening, you would know him because he's the man behind the Blue Zones. He's the Blue Zone guy. He wrote the Blue Zone books. He's an amazingly accomplished author, public speaker, and amazing ultra endurance athlete. Yeah. Guy's ridden his bike like everywhere. Across the world.

Incredible. Yeah. Through the Sahara desert without sunscreen, I might add. And through the Congo and from the tip of North America to the tip of South America. So when he met you, it was like... We're like, he's a pod. Bromance. Yeah, definitely. It was great. So, you know, when he met you, it was like bromance, you know. Yeah, definitely.

It was great. So I'm like, when is he moving here? Don't tell me you're moving to Minnesota. So you're having this long distance relationship, right? So how are you making that work? Well, he travels a lot anyway. So he's out in LA quite a bit. And then, you know, I'll go back to Minneapolis.

And I'm a writer, so I can work when I'm there. And then we'll meet up on the road sometimes. But it's long distance for right now. And, you know, I just got divorced. There's no rush. No rush. I'm settling into my new life, but I'm loving, loving being with someone who is health minded and loves, you know, new experiences in life and who's challenged himself to do these ultra endurance things and

to educate himself on, you know, why the longest living cultures in the world are so healthy. And he has determined through, you know, major research that one of the reasons is that they're about 95% plant-based. I mean, I don't think there are any vegan cultures in the world, so we can't really study them to know if they would fare better. But being plant-based is one of the reasons these cultures live so long. And so to be with someone who we're, you know, passing back and forth studies and research papers and discussing data, and yet still love, we both love to go out for a martini at night. And, you know, we both love to go for a bike ride that's nice and vigorous and, you know, go vacation camping and stuff like that. So he's, he's kind of, he's kind of great. He's kind of great.

So how has his knowledge and all of his research and his experience sort of colored your growth? Like has it changed your perspective on certain things or pushed you in new directions? Or how has that affected your perspective? It's affected me because Dan believes in having a good time. And because that is one of the tenets of how people live so long in these five blue zones all over the world, is that they have parties, they dance, they have community, they are happy people. Even though they work hard and they're not necessarily the richest people in the world, they are happy and they laugh and they have a good time. And I can be a little too serious sometimes. And so that's really changed my perspective.

I have learned to let go more and enjoy myself. And at the end of the day, I can kick up my heels and relax and I don't feel guilty about it. I like that. Yeah, he's changed me a lot in that way. I can kick up my heels and relax and I don't feel guilty about it, you know? I like that. Yeah, he's changed me a lot in that way. It's certainly not a novel concept that happiness is not related to all the sort of things that we kind of believe are going to make us happy, like, you know, the car, the house, the job, you know, the income or the 401k or whatever it is. We know, like, this is not the recipe for happiness. And yet we still continue to blindly chase these things.

And when we look at these blue zone cultures, it really is about, you know, it's like villages raising people together in a more communal way of living where they're so interwoven with each other's lives. And that's a huge aspect of health, happiness, longevity, you know, peace of mind, all of these sorts of things. And we've really moved away from that as a culture yeah and i mean los angeles of all places i mean this is the most fractured city i've lived in lots of cities i know you have and it's just it's very very difficult to cultivate community here yeah but he's you know he's he's sort of shed some light on um you know where it's a smart place to live you want to live in a place where you can ride your bike and walk into town and you know your neighbors. And I always sort of lived up on a hill somewhere and isolated.

And I thought that was great to have a beautiful view. And now I'm close to a major town and I ride my bike in for dinner and I know my neighbors and we'll walk into the local restaurant together. And it's nice. I like it. I feel like I'm part of a community. So I'm loving it. This. I like it. I feel like I'm part of a community. So I'm loving it. Yeah, this is a nice neighborhood. It's kind of like Desperate Housewives kind of.

Don't say that. Not in a pejorative way, but like nice houses. No. Just because I don't live up in the mountains like you guys do. Well, we're isolated for sure. We have our own commune though right now. So we just bring everybody on to our place. I'm in the studio city commune. Yeah, but it's nice.

I mean, you can ride your bike right down the street. There's all those restaurants and it's all right there. It's cool. It's pretty great. It's pretty great. Dan would prefer Minneapolis because he's like the mayor of Minneapolis, for God's sakes. Why would you leave that? 25 below zero.

Hello? He likes it, though, I think, on some level. I know. You need to take him out here. Go bike riding so he gets addicted to the... And conversely, how has your perspective kind of shifted, you know, how he relates to food? I mean, has that had an impact on him? Oh, yeah, it has. I think as much as he was a healthy eater before, he didn't get the compassionate side of it,

like looking at what happens to animals, the awareness part of it. I think he was into the health part of it, but he didn't really get that whole side. His father's a big hunter, as are his brothers, and I love them all. They're terrific people but it's just it didn't occur to him or them and so you know i'm i sort of send him the videos and i say check this out and this is how you know because he still eats fish and so i'm always sending him fish videos and everything you know and uh dr michael gregor videos Oh, he's gotten a few of those, yeah. Nutritionfacts.org.

So he's getting that awareness. We were just on vacation in Sicily, and we're having the greatest time, and then I came across this dog that was on a chain, a two-foot chain, and he was chained there, and I just lost it. I just still have nightmares about this dog and trying to get him, you know, a good home. And Dan said, you know, he said, Kathy, you know, there was a day that I wouldn't have thought twice about that. And he said, it doesn't upset me as much as it does you, but I'm 50% farther along now. So, and that makes me feel so good. So, I've affected him.

I've turned on a light for him. He's not where I am, you know, and I may not be where he is with biking, you know, but he's leaning in. He's investigating. He's curious about it. He's, you know, he's aware now. Right. So I'm happy about that. When you, you know, you're in this sort of rarefied air as somebody, you know, you've been

on Oprah, you've been on Dr. Oz, you've been on The Ellen Show multiple times. And so with that, you're writing on the Huffington Post, like you have a very kind of visible profile. And your philosophy is this lean in philosophy. But I would imagine like, if I were you, like, I would be very like sort of self conscious when I go out into the world, like, I would be very, like, sort of self-conscious when I go out into the world. Like, oh, my God, everyone's looking at me to be this sort of idealized version of what I talk about. Do you, like, feel that pressure or, you know, how do you carry that mantle of responsibility? Well, A, thank you. B, I never think about people looking at me to tell you the truth.

people looking at me to tell you the truth. But, and on the other hand, I am aware that, you know, I better have my proverbial, you know what, together. But I talk about leaning in. So if I'm not perfect, then that's okay. You're consistent in your message. I'm consistent in my message, you know, and by the way, just let me make it clear, I'm 100% vegan, you know, and I don't wear leather, but I still wear wool, for instance. And I just saw this PETA video about wool, and I got to tell you, I'm freaking devastated, you know. So I understand what it's like to be in the position of just becoming aware of something and yet not having the alternative ready, set, go. You know, like, oh my God, it's getting cold. I need to wear a sweater.

If I don't have wool, what do I do? So in a way, it reminds me of what people are dealing with when they get the awareness about animals and how they become meat. So like they have the awareness, but they don't know what the heck to do. Because I'm now in that position with wool. So I'm going to do the same thing that I've always done, which is I have the awareness now, and my intention is to move away from animal products. My intention is to be someone who doesn't use or wear or eat anything from an animal.

I don't know how I'm going to get there. I don't know how I'm going to do it, but that's my intention. I'm going to lean forward. And so that is my message and that is what I embody. And so hopefully, you know, I will find the alternatives and I will live up to what I talk about, which is better and better. The good news is there's more and more alternatives. You know what I mean? Like if, like 10 years ago, if you wanted to find shoes that weren't made out of leather, that's a tall order. You can wear, you know, Chuck Taylors, but that's about it.

But not if you live in Minnesota. Yeah, I know, right? Like what are you going to do? So, but now there's lots of, you know, lots of new fabrics and new, you know, materials that they're using in, you know, all kinds of garments. So that's good. But I was sort of thinking, I kind of think on some level that there's this sort of punk rock thing going on with you because you are, you know, you have a face made for television and you have the opportunity to be on TV and to spread this message. But so you're working within the system, within the structure of, you know, mainstream media. But then you go on and then you drop these bombs. You know, like I remember this was years before I met you, but I think it was on one of those like nightly entertainment shows like E.T. or Extra or something like that.

And you come on and you start talking about forks over knives. And I was like, they're talking about forks over knives on like extra, like, that's crazy. You know, like, how did that happen? You know, like, how do you, so you're like, you're finding these little like ways of like nudging in and then like getting the word out to like a massive audience. Oh, thank you. I've been, I'm super lucky to have worked with people who are open-minded and who are willing to take the risk to talk about these things on major networks. So that's pretty- Because it's like extras about like, you know, George Clooney getting married.

It's not about like, you know, some obscure documentary, you know, that you can get on Netflix. It's not obscure. It went mainstream, but in no small part to like the kind of things that you were doing to try to get it out to the masses. Thanks. You know, it's definitely speaks to the culture that things are starting to change. Those things are on the air. then the dairy industry is sure to be in touch with a network or that particular show and say, well, you're saying this, so we want equal airtime about why dairy is good for you. So that's also the world we live in.

Yeah. So because there's so much advertising for meat and dairy and eggs and all that stuff, it just takes people showing up in various places, you know, whether it's in the community or on their football team or on extra or, you know, in, you know, extreme sports or in the legal world, whatever, it's just going to take, you know, all these points of light coming together in massive ways. Right, right, right. I mean, when I look at Dr. Oz, for example, I feel like this is not based on logic or evidence, but just my intuition is that he's super into the whole plant-based thing, but he's constricted because that's such a cash cow, that show.

And the advertising base is so powerful that it drives the content. So he will have, you know, Dr. Esselstyn on and Rip Esselstyn, and they'll talk about these things. But he'll always sort of leave it with a caveat. Well, if you're going to do this, make sure, you know, like it's sort of like, it's almost, I almost feel like he's being forced to say something at the end that will placate the advertisers. I mean, as someone who's been on the show and probably knows the guy, like, is that fair, do you think? I mean, it's the realities of a television show that is so popular and so, you know, controversy aside with him lately, you know, basically beloved and generates a tremendous amount of income for a lot of people. Yeah. It's, and, you know, I think shows like Dr. Oz and Oprah and Ellen, I mean, they have a legal team that is always advising them what they can

and can't say. And so they probably stay within those parameters and present compelling information for their viewer to make their own choice. And so what I think is important is to always bring in the ethical argument as well because when you look at the rise of the paleo diet, which makes me want to tear my hair out, and I just think some very charismatic people can make junk science sound really plausible. And so that's always going to be out there, you know, and people are going to think, but I just read, you know, Time Magazine that butter is back.

And so therefore, isn't butter good for you? So there's always going to be that silly science that... But people would say, well, it's on Time Magazine. How silly is it? And I think this sort of drives that confusion. Suddenly butter is the thing. We've all thought it was bad. Now suddenly it's good.

Is it good? Is it not good? I don't know. What's wrong with the paleo diet? Everyone seems to be loving it. Yeah, well, everyone seems to be loving it because why wouldn't you love something when someone tells you you should be eating the things that you love, right?

It's like you get a big stamp of approval. And you and I both know that every bit of respectable science would say that that's absurd and a plant-based diet is for sure, for so many different reasons, better for you. But, you know, that's why it's really important to talk about the ethical side of things too. Because that, no matter what you hear about health, there's always the reality of what animals go through as they become our food. And that's something that we have to pay attention to because we're not just a health mind. We're not just our physical bodies. We are our consciousness. We are awareness. We are the soul. We are the, whatever you want to call it, the spirit, you know, that's something that, um, that's not going to change

with a study that comes out saying one thing or the other that it's, it's, you know, I watch those videos of what happens to animals and it's vexatious to my soul. It feels repulsive. And I just think if I don't have to do that, if I don't have to participate in that, why would I? Not only that you don't have to, but if you don't, you'll actually be doing something good for the planet. Yeah. And you'll be doing something good for yourself. And there is that ephemeral sort of aspect of shifting your consciousness, which I think is difficult for people to grasp. I mean, I've experienced it.

I know it to be very real and tangible. But until you experience it, it's difficult to grasp, I mean, I've experienced it. I know it to be very real and tangible. But until you experience it, it's difficult to grasp, I think. And so it's hard for people to jump on the bandwagon on that alone. And, you know, a lot of people, they don't want to watch those videos. It's painful. And with all the laws in place, it's not like that kind of stuff is mainstream, you know, it's challenging, you know, and our whole system is set up to prevent us from understanding or being connected to that aspect of where our food comes from. And I think that's very telling actually. And I think that that's, you know, there's something

in humans that we are innately compassionate, empathic people, and it's almost a defense mechanism that we don't want to look at it, you know? Well, because if we do, we know we'll have that reaction and then we'll have to change our behavior and we don't want to change. Then what? Who wants to change, Kathy? Exactly. Exactly. And who wants to think about what we've done all this time? I mean, I think about, my God, what have I contributed to? You know, what have I been doing? And what if you get that awareness and you just think, holy crap, you know? It's too much dissonance. Yeah, yeah.

So we walk a fine line. Like how do you introduce information and awareness little by little? And I'm not even saying as an activist to other people, but to yourself, you know? I don't want to shut down because I think if I see too much, I watch too much, I will just get so depressed. But I have to, as an activist, push myself to stay aware. So I have to keep, you know, watching things. But I don't want to become so inundated that I become paralyzed. that I become paralyzed. So once again, if we can lean into it, you know, if we can just push ourselves forward little by little in ways that are comfortable, but agitating.

And you don't want to become embittered either, because then the way that you communicate with the world becomes alienating rather than embracing. And that's what a lot of activists start doing when they first get the awareness. Like, I remember when I first got it, I was like, oh my God, I want to shout it from the rooftops and stop people from putting that fork into their mouth and saying, do you know what it is?

So, it's like when we first get it, you're filled with this vim and vigor. But as you watch what works, what doesn't work, you sort of kind of fine-tune your message. Yeah. I mean, I have a theory. I think that for people that are strident animal activists, it's possible that they came out of the womb more sensitive than other people. They have a really finely-tuned sensitivity meter.

really finely tuned sensitivity meter. And so when they start to understand how animals are treated for food, it becomes so intolerable to them. And then when they start to speak to that, to the world, and the world doesn't see it the way that they see it or doesn't respond the way that they want them to respond to it, there's a gradual sort of frustration that begins to build that slowly transitions into anger and bitterness, right? So because they just see the world differently and they can't understand why other people aren't seeing it the way that they see it. So of course you're going to get angry. That's going to be the end result of that. Yeah. But just to remind yourself, where does it get you? Where does it get the animals? Yeah. And, but just to remind yourself, where does it get you? Where does it get the animals?

You know, how, how, how does it, how does it affect the animals for you to be that way? Because ultimately if you're, if you're an ambassador for them, you just got to always keep them in mind, you know, and then you look at someone like you, who's like out there being a super athlete and, you know, having a, this cool, uber cool family and you're, you know, having this cool, uber cool family and, you know, just the way you've made choices in your life. And it sort of informs people like you don't have to be this rigid person. Well, and I didn't get into it because of an ethical concern. That was not my entry point. And there's all different kinds of entry points for different kinds of people. I've become much more sensitized and aware and educated and compassionate and active in, you know, in those issues. But I think that, you know, for me, like if I had watched Earthlings documentary in 2005, I don't know what the impact of that would have been on me.

It might have just turned me off to the whole thing. Like that was not, you know, I came into it because I started to feel better. I wanted to feel better. You know, it wasn't, it wasn't because of, you know, I was very selfish, right? So my consciousness has shifted. I perceive it differently now. And now as you know, someone who wants to continually grow and expand, how can you not, you know, start to look at this and speak to it? And it's great to see you as a man and as an athletic man talk about it because it sort of allows other guys who may live with that myth of, oh, you need to eat a lot of meat to be strong and powerful. So it's really important for men like you who are athletic, who are, you know, you're a lawyer by training. And for you to be advocating this stuff, it's really powerful. Well, it's very tricky because it can be perceived as a threat to your masculinity.

And if there's anything like a man wants to protect or preserve or sort of, you know, emote to the world. It's a sense of, you know, masculinity being, what does it mean to be a man? And I think it begs the question of really looking at that definition and saying, well, what does it really mean to be a man? You know, does going to the grocery store and picking up hamburger patties and grilling them, does that make me more of a man? Like, what are we really talking about here if we're getting honest? And I think you have to, and I'm compassionate towards other men because, you know, it's to say like, oh, you shouldn't be doing this. Then that brings up questions of identity that become very threatening. And so it's not an easy thing.

Which is so great that you're talking about it. And your entry point was health, you know, so it's not like you're coming out as an animal rights person at all. No, not at all. Not at all. So what are you going to do now? What's next? What are you working on?

Well, I'm starting a book for young adults to talk about um you know being veganish and not uh eating animal products and you know how to talk to your parents and and articulating you know what you're what what's going on on the planet environmentally and because these are the kids who are going to sort of be our future, you know, we're handing our world as sullied as it is off to these kids. So want to help them articulate what it is, you know, that they want and how to talk about it. So I think that's great. I mean, that's the future, you know, and I think that my experience with young people is that they are much more open and willing and interested in these sorts of things. Like it's difficult to take somebody who's in their 30s or 40s and say, you have to change your whole relationship to food.

But you take a teenager in the age of the internet, they don't know what it's like not to be able to be online. Yeah. And the level of information that's available to them and the sort of transparency that comes with that has infused that generation with a level of awareness and sensitivity that we didn't have when we were kids. And so it's really, you know, it's easy to bash on millennials, but, you know, I find that, you know, it's easy to bash on millennials. But, you know, I find that, you know, most of the young people I meet are incredibly worldly because they have access to so much more than we did, you know, at their fingertips. And so they know about all different kinds of stuff. And I think that the Internet has allowed, like I said, that level of transparency where you can find, you know, certainly there's a lot of nonsense on the internet. But if you really want to figure something out, you can find it.

And what do we do? Go to the library and use the Dewey Decimal System to try to find a book that was written 50 years ago about something? It's like, how do we know anything? I mean, I think of that video, Meet Your Meat, that, you know, PETA did for a while back with Alec Baldwin. And it was like, oh, my God, that was mind-blowing. But I couldn't have seen that 20 years ago. 20 years ago, they didn't have videos that were circulating virally. Or just even information about, you know, how the government operates. Like, we would go to high school and we'd read our history books

and, you know, we'd learn how- That's what it was. You know, there's the legislative branch and the executive branch and the judicial branch, you know, but all right, well, how's government really functioning? Like, what is the impact of political fundraising? And, you know, unless you were reading

the New York Times every day, but now, you know, with things like, you know, I don't know, everything from anonymous to, you know, we can find out the reality behind the reality. Yeah. You know, and kids are into that. Yeah. And so I think consciousness and awareness about where our food is coming from, how it's manufactured, is really infusing them with a level of consciousness and awareness that we just didn't have the opportunity to have. Totally.

And they're going to be the future consumers. They're going to be the ones who are shopping for their families and raising children and starting businesses. So they're a good group to communicate with. So this is exciting. Do you have a title for the book yet? I'm thinking vegan-ish. Vegan-ish. We did vegan-ist. So now you just, you're changing the T with an H. And I wish I kind of, you know, as much as I explained that

vegan-ist, you know, is about, you know, someone who's just super interested in like an artist or a violinist or a pacifist, you're super interested in that subject, that it's not something that's militant or anything. I think sometimes it can come across as that way, even though it wasn't intended that way. And now I find so many people who, if I'll say, oh, really, are you vegan? And they'll say, well, not really, but mostly. And I thought, vegan-ish, that's cool.

Listen, if the world were vegan-ish, we'd be in so much better shape. You know, the environment would clean up. We wouldn't have all these diseases. So much less animal cruelty. So vegan-ish, that'd be awesome. That'd be great. Yeah. I mean, so many parents contact us and they're like, you know, I want to do this, but you know, my kids aren't going to eat it. But it works the other way too.. You get the kids interested in it, and then they're the ones who are changing their parents. Isn't that great? Which is cool, right?

Yeah, that's really exciting. I love that. I love that. So are you doing any public speaking things? You've been traveling around doing that kind of thing, or no? I'm not. No, you don't like it? I remember when I saw you at the Seed, and you're like, I'm getting out of my comfort zone doing this because I don't really like doing this.

I get butterflies in my stomach. I love talking to one person like this. But your TED Talk was great. You're very kind. Thank you. You're not happy with it? No, no. Speaking from someone who's on television all the time, come on.

Being on TV is different. I feel like I'm talking to one person. Like if I'm on Ellen, I'm talking to Ellen.. Like if I'm on Ellen, I'm talking to Ellen. If I'm not on Charlie Rose, I'm talking to him. If I'm in a room full of people, I'm talking to Ellen. I'm just, you know, by my nature, I'm actually an introvert. I'm shy. I get easily overwhelmed by a crowd.

It may not appear that way, but I am. So, you know, it's not like I won't go out and do talks. It's just, you know, it's not my forte. It's not your thing. Well, you just have to find that one person in the audience that you can like make eye contact with and then just pretend that person is Ellen. Right? Okay. That should help.

Okay. I'll give that a try. So I want to walk through like a day in the life of food with you, like breakfast, lunch, dinner, waking up, all that kind of stuff. So I get up pretty early. I get up when it gets light and I have my tea first. So I have tea with soy creamer and then I usually make something. Why soy and not almond or coconut? Because it tastes better. It tastes better.

Okay. I'm not an anti-soy person. I love the soy creamer and, you know, do coconut creamer or whatever. And then I'll have either oatmeal made with apples and walnuts, or one of my favorite is brown rice. I make brown rice like two or three times a week in a big rice cooker and I save it through the week and I have it for breakfast, sometimes for dinner. I chop up dates and then I do either a big bike ride, thanks to Dan, or I do a workout in the gym or I do yoga or something. And then I have a green smoothie with coconut water and

peanut butter and frozen kale and some protein powder. And then for lunch, I usually, you know, mix up some, I get a farm box every Wednesday. So I get whatever vegetables they're sending over. So I make some, you know, maybe yams and broccoli and some black eyed peas. I just, I keep it simple. But it's all really simple. Super simple. I'm not a very good cook, but I actually like simple food. And my favorite flavors are olive oil, salt, garlic. So if I can put those, you know, I can almost have everything. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. I remember when we had the dinner here the other night, Dan did all the cooking.

I'm no fool. He's great. Yeah, I'm like, great. I will set the table. I will serve the wine and you make your delicious curries. And he's like that old-fashioned Italianian who loves to cook you know right right right he's gonna outlive us all yeah yeah probably probably yeah so one thing i wanted to talk about that we didn't touch on yet was your change.org uh petition to try to get McDonald's to introduce a plant-based entree option, right? So walk me

through like how did that start and kind of what happened with that? Well, I'm a girl who loves fast food. I'm traveling and sometimes I just want to grab something and I grew up on McDonald's and I just loved the idea of maybe having a veggie burger at McDonald's, you know, if I'm on the road or whatever. And so I thought it'd be so nice to have something for everyone. It's not like I think that they should turn into a vegetarian restaurant, but it would be nice if they had something that my meat eating friends could eat and something that I could have. And again, it's all about progress, not perfection. So I started this change.org petition and got a lot of great response and also got a

lot of really negative response. It was definitely like sort of polarizing, right, in the community. It's hard for me to get my head around because I got so many nasty tweets from vegans and saying, you know, I'm holding out for them to be shut down. I'm like. It's not going to happen. Not going to happen. McDonald's is not going to shut their doors. So, you know, and people, they serve, you know, millions of meals every day.

So those people are going to keep going to McDonald's no matter what. So why not give them a wholesome plant-based option? Because they're going to get something. So why not have something that's healthier and more humane as an option? And it just makes total sense to me to provide something for everyone. And so there was a whole lot of press around it. Yeah, definitely got a lot of attention. Yeah, it was really exciting, and I'm talking with them.

Right. Oh, you are? Cool. So I was interested because I wanted the follow-up, like what did it actually lead to? Yeah. Interesting. Yeah. Like, what did it actually lead to?

Yeah. Interesting. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, I think it goes to, you know, this idea we were talking about before, which is working within the structure and the system that currently exists. It's the world we live in. And to try to, that's what I think, you know, people who are holding out for perfection and saying, you know, well, we're not going to sign something or hope that McDonald's does this because we're going to hold out perfection. I just think, well, you know, there's going to be a lot of animals that die while you're waiting for perfection. And there's going to be a whole lot of people getting sick while you're waiting for perfection. So why wouldn't you just push for

getting better and better? I think that voice is important though. I mean, you need people saying that. For sure. But you need people saying what you're saying as well. So I think there's room for all of those voices and they're all important and they all have their place. But I think it, you know, sometimes when you take that super hard line, you know, it doesn't translate into anything changing. And so to sort of accept like, well, McDonald's is here, you know, maybe one day it will get shut down or people will stop going, but not in the foreseeable decade, right?

So how can we, you know, at least make a small change within this structure that might provide somebody with an alternative? And, you know, Julie and I always talk about, we call it, you know, meeting people where they're at. So people are going to McDonald's. If you can put something on the menu, that would be a better choice. An alternative, and Julie and I always talk about, we call it meeting people where they're at. So if people are going to McDonald's, if you can put something on the menu that would be a better choice, that would be an alternative, that's part of leaning in. And McDonald's is a corporation that's interested in making money. And how great to show them that a plant-based option can make money.

Profitability is what's going to make change, right? Yeah, exactly. So wouldn't it be wonderful if we got the right item or two or three on the menu and they just took off? Like at Chipotle, the sofritas have taken off. I mean, they're just wildly popular. So when companies see that that stuff is successful, it's like silk is owned by a dairy company. So when companies see that that stuff is successful,

it's like silk is owned by a dairy company. So that dairy company, some people might say, I'm not going to buy silk because it's owned by a dairy company. I don't want to support that. But isn't it great to show that company that plant-based milks do really well and so they're going to put more resources behind those products. Isn't that the way things change? Well, it's being in the world as being a realist, I think. Yeah, and believe me, I'd love nothing more than for everybody to turn vegan overnight,

forever and ever, and everybody be happy. But since I don't live in fantasy land, I'm going to do the best I can in whatever way I can to just nudge the needle forward. And like you said, then there's the other people who want, you know, really massive change and they're going to do things in their more extreme way. And it takes all kinds. It takes that voice too. You need all those voices. Absolutely. So when you get that kind of vitriol headed in your direction, like how do you manage that? Like what is your, how do you respond to that?

Do you just ignore it or do you engage? I have really thick skin to tell you the truth. I used to engage and then I realized that some people just don't want to have a real conversation about it and they don't really want to, you know, understand each other. They just want to sort of hear their own voice. And so that part I don't engage with, but I just think that I've grown a really thick skin, you know. And that's, you know, part of the whole thing that's going to happen. Yeah, I mean, listen, if you take a stand on anything, you're going to divide people. There's going to be yeah i mean listen if you take a stand on anything you're going to divide people there's going to be especially in the internet age yeah you know

there's going to be negative vibrations coming in your direction and if they're not then maybe you're not taking a stand on it right maybe you don't have conviction about anything yeah but yeah it's it's it's not fun you know it kind of sucks. Those are the martini nights. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. It's like, oh, sorry, I shouldn't say that to you. That's fine. Listen, if I could, I would. Yeah, yeah. It's just sometimes I just think people can be so mean and they don't realize that.

It's like sometimes if I write a blog and I read the comments, I just think, do they think I'm not a person? Do I not a person? Do I not have feelings? Every one of those comments, it makes a difference to me. But over the years, because I've written so many blogs and gotten so many of those comments, I just realized that that's all part of the process. It's okay. It's okay. All right. But I'm not saying that people out there that are listening should send you a negative tweet, right?

Be nice. I'm sensitive. Yeah. Remember, I'm a little introvert. Well, a lot of that is, it just, it says more about who they are than, it's not about you. It's about them and whatever they're going through, right? Yeah. Yeah.

But that doesn't always make it feel better. We're all human. You know, we all want people to like us. Or I do. You want people to like you, but you're putting out a message that is sometimes difficult for people to digest. And it's not about me. And that's the thing that I always remind myself. I just think, girl, this is not about you anyway.

So just relax, put your ego aside, and just do what you think is the right thing to do. And if people don't like me on the way, then that's okay. That's their choice, you know. Cool, Manuel. We got to wrap it up here. So good to talk to you. This was delightful. Thank you so much for having me on.

You're such a love. You too, you too. This was great. Let's do it again. Let's do it. When your book comes out. Oh, I'd love that. Right?

And when's Dan coming back? I don't know. I don't know. We got to get him back because I got to. Got to take him on a bike ride. I'm here. I'm waiting for Dan if you're listening. Come on, man.

Get out on two wheels in Malibu Canyon and let's show them around. I think that would do it. And maybe talk him into doing the podcast, too. Yeah, yeah. That'd be great. What is he working on right now? He's got a new book coming out called The Blue Zone Solution. And it's about taking this philosophy and bringing it into cities and helping them get healthier.

And so it's basically bringing the blue zones home into your own community, into your own house. Create your own blue zone. Yeah, create your own blue zone, getting healthy without trying too hard. Cool. Yeah. I like it. When is that coming out?

It's coming out, I believe, in March. Nice. Yeah. So he's going to start promoting it probably in January. And do you have a release date for your book yet? No. No? It's just ongoing. and are you what publisher are you working with potter oh yeah yeah cool cool yeah right on all right well if you're digging on kathy the best way to connect with her is to go to her website kathy freston.com and you're on twitter at kcom. And you're on Twitter at KathyFreston. You're on Facebook at KathyFreston.Veganist.

Right? Good memory. Where else? Instagram. Instagram, KathyFreston. Yeah, I'm really original. Cool. Yeah.

And if you want to meet her in person, she's not doing speaking engagements right now. So that's going to be tricky. Right? Unless I push myself out of my comfort zone yeah you should yeah you should i'm leaning in all right cool no tv appearances coming up not right this second i'm just writing yeah all right cool yeah well i'm excited about the new book thanks and uh if you want to read kathy's works um she's got a bunch of books your most recent is the lean yeah and then before that veganist for that quantum wellness these are all new york times bestsellers are they not

lucky for me dude you're gonna have to teach me how to get on the new york times bestseller list oh my gosh that's amazing oh believe me i i pinch myself it's's really cool. Thank you. And you can go back into the archive and read the one and expect a miracle, right? No? She's like, no. Do you go back and read your old books and go, ugh? Yeah. Do you? Yeah.

I go back and read my one book that I've written and I'm like, why did I say that? Yeah. Yeah. And you grow, you change, you know? It's like your language is different. Hopefully you do. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I think that's a good sign, right? Yeah it's like your language. Hopefully you do. You should, you know, yeah. Yeah.

Well, I think that's a good sign. Right. Yeah. All right. Cool. Anything else? Thank you. Thank you.

Thank you. Thank you. You feel okay? I feel good. Do we do it? I think we did it. Have an apple. All right.

I'm going to take a bite out of the fake apple. Next time I come here, that better be filled with fresh, locally ground produce. You got it. All Kathy. You got it. You got it. I have my mandate. You need to lean in a little more on that. Okay. Okay.

All right, cool. Thanks, Ruth. Okay, everybody, that's it. We're done. The podcast is over. I hope you enjoyed Kathy. I find her to be inspiring and delightful. And I hope you enjoyed the idea of leaning in because I think we all have something

that we can lean into a little bit better, right? So please, if you haven't already, give us a review on iTunes. We're approaching a thousand reviews. It would be great to hit that. So please do me a solid. Let's make that happen. Come on, you guys stop being lazy. I know you're out there. You thought about doing it, you just didn't get around to it. Help a brother out. Want to stay current with all things plant powered again, subscribe to my newsletter richworld.com the only way to get exclusive content deals, sales discounts on products. We have a Halloween deal coming up. So if you don't want to miss it, you got to subscribe. I will not spam you. I'll send you a weekly podcast update and again, information on these deals and offers. And in the future, we're going to be building out the

newsletter to be providing helpful, additional, exclusive content. And of course, go to richroll.com for all your plant-powered needs and go to mindbodygreen.com for my online courses. If you wanna support the show, the Plant Power Mission, simply tell a friend, use the Amazon banner ad and you can even donate. There are buttons on my website, right there on the homepage. You can choose a dollar amount. You can do it once, weekly, monthly, whatever you like.

We appreciate everybody who has extended themselves in that regard. It really means a lot to us. And keep Instagramming. I love it when you guys share how, the hows, the whens, the whys of enjoying the show in visual form. Just don't forget to tag me at Rich Roll there. Okay, let's close with this week's assignment. What I want you to do this week is to identify something in your life that you have failed to start or have failed to begin because you're afraid. Something's holding you back. Something inside of you is preventing you from starting whatever it is that you aspire to,

I suppose I could say, because you simply just don't have it all figured out yet. You're afraid to fail or you're waiting until you know what and how to do it first. That's wrong. Take that idea and just put it into motion. Make a list of a few very easy accessible tasks that are simple to accomplish. For example, you want to learn guitar? Well, why don't you go online and find out who in your area is teaching it? What is the rate? why don't you go online and find out who in your area is teaching it? What is the rate? Buy something at the market good for you. You've never tried before. Don't wait until you find the ultimate running shoe for you before you go out and run. Just go out for a jog, even if for 10 minutes in your lousy cloth hoppers or your socks or barefoot. I don't care. You get the idea. It's

about motion. It's about action. It's about momentum. It's about progress, not perfection. It's about leaning in. See you next week. Peace. Plants. Thank you.