The Rich Roll Podcast - On Why Good Food Should Be an Everyday Right for Everybody

Episode Date: November 10, 2014

You could say this show has been on a bit of a plant-based tear lately, and this week it continues with with my friend Bryant Terry – eco-chef, cookbook author, educator and most interesting to me, a renown social justice activist focused on promoting and healthy, just, affordable and sustainable food systems for all people – particularly the underprivileged living in underserved urban communities. His goal? To foster awareness, promote change and create opportunities for people living in urban food deserts — places where fresh, healthy, sustainable food is difficult or impossible to obtain. Why? Because good food should be an everyday right — not a privilege. Bryant’s got a slew of really beautiful cookbooks that fuse his Memphis family roots and the traditions of true southern African American cooking with art, music, literature a modern plant-based perspective. His most recent offering, Afro Vegan* was named one of the “Best Cookbooks of 2014″ by Amazon.com and his critically acclaimed Vegan Soul Kitchen* was named one of the best vegetarian/vegan cookbooks of the last 25 years by Cooking Light Magazine. Bryant’s work has been featured in The New York Times, Food and Wine, Gourmet, Sunset, Oprah Magazine and Essence and he has appeared on The Martha Stewart Show, Emeril, All Things COnsidered, Morning Edition, The Splendid Table, and The Tavis Smiley Show. In addition, Bryant has deleivered keynote addresses at countless events and on college campuses including Brown, Columbia, NYU, Smith, Stanford and Yale. In addition, TheRoot.com included him on its list of “100 most influential African Americans,” and Ebony magazine listed him on its annual “Power 100” list. Still not impressed? On top of everything else, Bryant is also the 2014 Artist in Residence at San Francisco’s Grace Cathedral, where he is curating interesting gatherings with an eye towards promoting deeper community roots. I could go on – Bryant's accolades are many – but you get the idea. This guy is so much more than a chef and cookbook author. Behind the affable disposition and congenial smile, Bryant is a true progressive; a boundary pushing, paradigm breaking community-minded advocate passionately devoted to promoting better access to healthful, affordable foods for urban African American and minority communities and tackling the industrialized food system that has made it far too easy for these economically challenged communities to shirk healthy habits in favor of cheap meat and the convenience of fast food. Bryant delivers the goods on multiple levels and this is an awesome conversation. A dialog that starts with food as the common thread that unites us all and veers into food politics, the economic aspects of food choice, food as a platform to create better communities and food as a vehicle for social justice. I sincerely hope this week's offering. Let me know what you think in the comments section below. Peace + Plants, Rich

Welcome to the Rich World Podcast, Episode 112 with Bryant Terry. But before we get into it, just a quick thought. Most likely you have tuned into this podcast because you want to get healthier. You want to be fitter. You want to grow physically, emotionally, and mentally. Basically, you just want to be better. Who doesn't, right? Well, with that in mind, I think it bears mentioning that I have a few helpful items to serve those needs, a few products and services that you might find beneficial

in your journey. I've got two online video courses, both of which can be found at mindbodygreen.com. The first one is on plant based nutrition, and it's called the ultimate guide to plant based nutrition. And I also have one on unlocking a better version of yourself called the art of living with purpose, which is about the inside work. It's about goal setting and potential achieving. Both of these courses include hours and hours of streaming video broken down into bite-sized chunks. It includes downloadable tools and resources, as well as interactive support.

I'm really proud of these courses. If you want to find out more about them and to check them out, go to mindbodygreen.com. They're right on the homepage or click video courses in the top menu. If you go to my site, richroll.com, we've got a bunch of awesome plant-based nutritional products. We have an e-cookbook with 77 awesome plant-based recipes. We have a meditation program. We got merch to fly your plant power flag affiliation proudly and so much more. You can find out more about what we got going on if you go to richroll.com. And don't forget to subscribe to my newsletter for a free seven recipe download and to stay clued in to what's what. I will not spam you. All right,

now on with the show. The Rich Roll Podcast. Hey, everybody. Greetings, citizens of the planet. It's your friendly neighborhood Rich Roll here again, visiting you in your earbuds, at the gym, on the trail, on the road, or in the kitchen, or wherever. I am the host of this particular podcast that bears my name. Welcome, you guys. Thank you for listening. Thank you for spreading the word with your friends. Thank you for Instagramming all the cool ways and places where you enjoy the show. And thank you for supporting the show by clicking through the Amazon banner ad at richroll.com for all your Amazon purchases. It only takes an extra second. It does not cost you anything extra. It just kicks us some commission change on the Amazon side. So if you're not doing it, come on, you guys get on the

bandwagon. It really helps us out a lot. So what goes on here? You guys ask, well, if you're new, you're asking yourself that if you've been with me for this journey, then you already know. So let me indulge the newcomers. Each week, I sit down with the best and the brightest paradigm-busting minds in health, wellness, diet, nutrition, fitness, mindfulness, creativity, and entrepreneurship. World-class athletes, doctors, nutritionists, psychologists, chefs like today's guest, yogis, entrepreneurs, artists, you name it. All of these people are here to share their experience, to share their wisdom, to share their insights, to help you discover, uncover, unlock, and unleash your best, most authentic self. You guys know me, you know I'm a plant-based athlete. I'm a plant-based

activist. And I frequently have guests on the show to talk about the plant-based lifestyle, the plant-based movement. That being said, I want to point out that this is not a vegan podcast per se. I like to have a wide variety of people from all walks of life offering a myriad of perspectives. I like to cast a wide net and have all different kinds of conversations. But I do admit that I've been on a bit of a plant-based tear as of late. If you take a look at my recent guests, it wasn't planned. It's just sort of how all the interviews and scheduling worked out. And I wanted to let people know who kind of tune in for other reasons beyond the plate, that I do have some really cool guests coming on soon to pontificate

on other subject matters. People like legendary ultra marathoner, Dean Karnazes. That was an amazing conversation. Troubled teen expert, Josh Shipp, extraordinary. And high performance psychologist, Michael Gervais. You might've heard of Michael. He's the guy who the Seattle Seahawks head coach, Pete Carroll, brought on board his organization to help implement mindfulness techniques and other team building strategies with the Seahawks. And Michael's been credited as being instrumental in helping them win the Super Bowl. He's also the guy who famously got Felix Baumgartner mentally and emotionally prepared for his Stratos space jump. Remember the guy who jumped from space? We all saw that incredible video. And I just sat down with Michael yesterday.

We had this amazing conversation. So I've got all this cool stuff for you guys to look forward to coming in upcoming weeks. But today I continue on my plant-based hair with my friend, Bryant Terry. Who is Bryant? Bryant is an echo chef. He's a cookbook author. He's an educator. And most interesting to me and kind of what we focus on during today's conversation is that Bryant is a renowned social justice activist. He's a guy who's focused on promoting and creating healthy, just, and sustainable food systems to make them more widely available and affordable to all people, particularly those living in underserved urban communities. His mission is to bring awareness to people living in basically food deserts, these kind of urban locations, places where fresh, healthy, sustainable food is difficult or maybe even impossible to obtain. Why does he do this? Because good food should be an everyday right and not a privilege. Eating healthy should not be an elitist ideal. Brian's got a slew of really beautiful, amazing cookbooks, and his most recent is called Afro Vegan. It was named one of the best cookbooks of 2014 by Amazon.com. He's also the author of the critically acclaimed Vegan Soul Kitchen,

which was named one of the best vegetarian vegan cookbooks of the last 25 years by Cooking Light magazine. Bryant also authored The Inspired Vegan, and he co-authored a book called Grub, which the New York Times called Ingenious, and it is. In fact, all of Bryant's food creations are amazing, and they hearken back to his Memphis family roots, fusing the traditions of true African-American cooking with a modern plant-based perspective. Brian's work has been featured in the New York Times, Food and Wine, Gourmet, Sunset, the Oprah Magazine, Essence. He's appeared on the Martha Stewart Show, Emerald Green, All Things Considered, Morning Edition,

The Splendid Table, The Tavis Smiley Show. He's keynoted countless events and on college campuses, including Brown, Columbia, NYU, Smith, Stanford, and Yale. And what's really cool is that Bryant is currently artist in residence of San Francisco's Grace Cathedral, where he's curating some really cool stuff, some really cool events. And we talk all about that today. TheRoot.com included Bryant on its list of 100 most influential African Americans and Ebony Magazine listed him on its power 100 list. I could go on. Bryant's accolades are many, but I think you get the idea. And the idea is that this guy is so much more than a chef, so much more than a cookbook author. He is a true progressive. He is a true paradigm buster

devoted to addressing the real root of the healthcare crisis faced by urban African-American and minority communities, which is access to healthful, affordable foods and the industrialized food system that has made it easier for people to eat cheap meat, to over-consume fast food, to over-consume processed foods and sugary beverages. Bryant delivers the goods on multiple levels, and he definitely delivers the goods today because this is a really awesome conversation. It's a conversation that starts with food as the commonality that unites us all and veers into the politics of food, the economic aspects of food choice, food as a platform to create better communities, and food as a vehicle

for social justice. So let's dig in. When will this poisonous product cease? This is another public service announcement. You can believe it or you can doubt it. Let us begin now with the cow. The way it gets to your plate and how. We're brought to you today by recovery.com. I've been in recovery for a long time. It's not hyperbolic to say that I owe everything good in my life to sobriety. And it all began with treatment, an experience that I had that quite literally saved my life.

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towards recovery. To find the best treatment option for you or a loved one, again, go to recovery.com. All right, man, first of all, what is in this smoothie? Because it's insane. So this is a persimmon, almond milk, flaxseed, coconut butter, cinnamon, and vanilla extract smoothie. And it was actually inspired by a recipe in amy chaplin's new book at home in the whole foods kitchen so hers was smoothie it was peach and chia seed so i just kind of modified it it's insanely good yes it's almost like a pudding though you know with a spoon i didn't realize that the flax seeds were thickening it up so much so you know she has a variation on her recipe for like chia seed pudding.

And now I get it. Right, right, right. And as far as like the cinnamon and the spices, I know that you're a big proponent of not buying the sort of, you know, baked and ground spices. Like you like to get the spices in their original form and work with them that way. Isn't that right? Oh, yeah. the spices in their original form and work with them that way. Isn't that right?

Oh, yeah. I always tell people that, you know, if possible, using whole spices that you toast and then grind is so much more flavorful. They have so much more punch than the pre-ground spices, which are often sitting in the supermarket for, you know, months, if not longer. Years sometimes, probably. Exactly. I go back to my mom's house and she has this spice drawer and I swear some of those spices have been there for like a decade.

And I'm just like, mom, throw them away. The other thing that's cool, too, is, I mean, going through your cookbooks, these recipes are extraordinary and amazing. But they're kind of core. Yeah, I mean, they're phenomenal and they're unlike anything you're ever going to find in any other cookbook, plant based or otherwise. So thank you for putting these books out. But this idea that the recipes are supposed to be a launchpad for the reader's own creativity, like this idea that, you know, the kitchen is this place where you can experiment and be creative and kind of go off script and go off page.

And I know that's how you work with food. And that's a big kind of way that my wife also comes up with her recipes. And I think it intimidates people, but I think that's where the magic happens, right? I agree. I mean, it's this tricky position being an educator as well as the kind of cookbook author who fashions himself as an artist, because I just have like the work that I want to put in the world and I want these beautiful books with the recipes the way that I like them. But, you know, I do think you're right. It's just like spontaneity, creativity, using what's on hand is the magic place in the kitchen. But I realize a lot of people are kitchen novices, you know, we're so disconnected from cooking in our industrialized food system that a lot of people need those kind of rudimentary skills just to be able to feel

comfortable in the kitchen. And so, you know, you just can't put a handful or pinch people like, what is a handful? Can you be more specific? And so I try to just balance just me wanting to just like have these recipes where I say, Hey, if you're growing Swiss chard in your home and the recipe calls for kale, don't go buy kale. Use the Swiss chard. But also realizing that a lot of people just need for you to be very specific for them to feel comfortable. Right. level, like a base level of proficiency and get a little bit of confidence, then the, you know, you're encouraging people to then kind of, you know, do their own thing, like find out a different way to make the recipe that you're presenting them with. Oh yeah. Sky's the limit. I mean,

just like the way in which I modified Amy Chaplin's recipe and instead of making a peach chia seed smoothie, you know, thinking about what's in season. I mean, we're in October now, so peaches obviously aren't in season anymore, but persimmons what's in season. I mean, we're in October now, so peaches obviously aren't in season anymore, but persimmons are coming in season. And so, yeah, you know, like I have this curry. I often do this curry on my recipe. It's a mustard green and tofu curry. And I tell people that, you know, the most important thing is the base. If you can create the base with like this fresh curry spice blend and then, you know, tomatoes and peanut butter and your, um, you know, stock, then you can add whatever you want. You could have tofu and mustard, but you could have tempeh, you could have Swiss chard, you could have,

you know, dandelion greens. And so, um, you know, it's just exciting for, um, me to see so many people who are interested in cooking and just, you know, really getting people excited about thinking about what's happening geographically, what's happening in their garden, what's happening at their farmer's market and letting that kind of like infuse the way in which you're thinking about cooking recipes. Right. And, you know, people know you as a chef and a cookbook author, but that's kind of lazy, you know what I mean? Because you really are so much more, like the cooking and being a chef is only one aspect of this sort of dynamic, you know, platform of advocacy.

You're like this echo chef, you're a political activist, you're a writer, you're an author, you're a community builder, you're a lecturer, like you're all of these things. And you've kind of created this really cool kind of platform this really cool kind of platform, uh, that uses food as the common denominator in all of this to then pontificate and speak to a lot of issues that have, you know, socioeconomic, political, et cetera. So

talk about that a little bit. Like, how did this all start? Because I know the activism preceded your interest in food. Normally, it would be the other way around. Yeah. Well, you know, it goes back to growing up in Memphis, Tennessee. I'm from the South, and my grandparents came from rural Mississippi and rural Tennessee. And they had, you know, my family had farms. And so, I grew up in this family with deep agrarian roots. And even when my grandfathers migrated to Memphis in their teens, obviously, they brought with them this agrarian knowledge and the desire to grow food and, you know, just this real connection to the land. So they passed it on to my parents and all the grandkids. And, you know, I just remember growing up and spending all day during the summers in my

grandfather's backyard garden. And it wasn't like it was, you know, huge. It was, you know, just a typical small garden. I know. We got plenty. We're sitting out in Brian's beautiful backyard garden here enjoying the sunshine that, you know, we're going to have to deal with the occasional airplane. But that's cool. Go ahead. No.

So, you know, a lot of people don't realize that my work started as a grassroots activist working around these issues, particularly with young people. And I was just bothered by the fact, because I was living in New York City at the time, I was actually working on a PhD in history at NYU, and I would be on the subway in the morning time and I would see kids eating like red hot Cheetos and drinking, you know, grape sodas for, you know, on the subway. I knew this was a breakfast and I just saw how disconnected they were from the natural environment. And it really moved me to think about how I could, you know, get young people involved in this movement, thinking about how we can create a more healthy and just and sustainable food system and just how we can get them eating more healthfully and eating more real food. Because the reality was that this generation of young people was at risk for having a shorter lifespan than their that this generation of young people was at risk

for having a shorter lifespan than their parents' generation. And that was absurd to me. Like, how can this happen? How can this modern industrialized society have, you know, young people having a shorter lifespan than their parents' generation? And when I started to learn more about the political aspects of food, like the fact that, you know, the food and beverage industry spends $1 million per hour marketing the worst drinks and the worst food to all consumers. But the fact that they're targeting these young, uncritical minds, sometimes as early as two years old, I just felt like that was criminal. And I really wanted to do my part in kind of combating that. And I thought that kind of training a new generation of young

people to be the face of this movement, to be the ones who are owning and driving the solutions to these issues would be one of the most powerful ways that I can contribute. Just given my study of history and, you know, thinking about the 20th century and like some of the most powerful social movements from the anti-apartheid movement in South Africa to the civil rights movement in the American South, like young people, their bravery, their brilliance, their energy, their ability to stay up all night protesting like these kids in Ferguson, Missouri right now. We need that for this food movement. And that's what really drove me to get more involved in this work. Right. So that was that the impetus for culinary school. So it wasn't a love of like making sauces. It was like it was a, it was a political, it was a politically motivated decision. It was, you know, that was truly the catalyst for me. And, you know, I realized that it's one thing to talk about creating a afterschool program to work with young people. And the last thing, especially given that we were working with so

many young people from the lower economic strata of New York city, um, the last thing we need to do is bring them to a program where they're where we're talking to them and lecturing about these political issues around it. Exactly. He was like, no thanks. I'm going to go play basketball or something. But I knew that using cooking as a way to engage them and get them excited about these issues would be such a powerful way to then move towards the more heady intellectual ideas and the political aspects, but not starting with that stuff. And so that was a goal for me. Right. How does that adage go? It's like, start with the visceral, move to the intellectual, then the political.

That's it. Who came up with that? That was me. Oh, it was you. Yeah, right. Good. That's a good one, man. I'm going to steal that from you. You can have that. No, that's been my guiding mantra, even with my cookbook writing. You know, just like we could talk a little bit more about this, but, you know, having been an omnivore growing up and having a really, you knowogie Down Productions, KRS-One, and just deciding that I didn't want to have anything to do with that or eating meat. And then it really was that song. It was that song.

Yeah, you heard that and it was like done. It just moved me so deeply. And, you know, it was a process. But I knew at that point that I didn't want to participate in this factory farming industrialized food system. But, you know, the interesting thing about that part of my journey was that whatever your stereotypes are, the most annoying, dogmatic, judgmental, self-righteous vegan, like that's what I turned into after that. And I just realized that the least effective way of helping move people to think differently about, you know, food and after you lost all your friends and your family wouldn't talk to you anymore. That was pretty much it. It was like I was such a loner.

I was like, I need to rethink the strategy. Effective communication. You should go back to school and get a communications degree. Right. So so what year are we talking about here? 1992. 1992. Tenth grade. Heard that song. And then, you know, it was hearing that song. And then my dad being like, Hey, you know, I, well, I ran to

my dad, dad, you got to give me this tape. Cause we listened to tapes back then with, you know, the song and they're talking about the animals and how they consume, you know, drugs. And then we get the drugs. And he, he, um, said that he gave me the tape, but he told me I had to first go and check out this book, the jungle by Upton Sinclair and write an essay about it because my dad was kind of crazy like that. That talks about the hot dog industry, right? Well, just the meatpacking industry in the Midwest and all the underbelly of that. And then I met this librarian who had been a vegetarian since the 70s because she read the book Diet for a Small Planet by Francis Moore LePay. And so that helped me move a little bit past just the reactionary, you know, just like and just understand the deeper economic and health benefits of having a plant based diet.

And, you know, I've been kind of on that journey ever since. Just went from there. And so by the time you enter. So then culinary school enters the picture when like 1998 or something? That was 2002. 2002. That long? You got four cookbooks? I've been grinding.

But it's prophetic because you're looking at food as this, like we said before, common denominator, you know, this vehicle through which, you know, you can teach, educate, you know, raise awareness and consciousness. And then to look around now in 2014 and to see what's happening. I mean, you couldn't have predicted this kind of zeitgeist moment that's happening where it's all about sustainability and young people are getting graduate degrees in permaculture and the like, and they're working on organic farms. And I mean, it's amazing. You know, when I was in college, forget it. That was not, you know, on the menu at all. So it's pretty cool. No, it's so, I'm so excited and just encouraged by where we are in the movement now, because back then, I mean, when I went into cooking school, like you said, I went in with a specific plan to start an organization that used food to work with young people around these issues. And so my essays that even, you know,

I had to submit for the program outlined that organization and how I saw it unfolding. And I remember the first day of class when everyone in the class was going around saying, you know, why they were there and what they wanted to be in culinary school for. I remember most people were like, oh, you know, I want to work in a restaurant or be a personal chef or start a catering company. And then I go in my little, or not in haranguing people, but I was just like, look, you know, I want to start this organization that use food and politics and, you know, educates the new generation of young food justice activists. And then people were looking at me like blank stares. What are you talking about?

But now that my school, the Natural Gourmet Institute in New York City, like I would say a good majority of the people who go into the program come in with this kind of like educator activist mind state and really understand the role that chefs can play in getting eaters, consumers to think differently about their relationship with food and the environment and all those issues. Well, I mean, the whole chef thing is having its moment right now too. I mean, that's another thing you couldn't have predicted that, you know, chefs would be these sort of populist rock stars that they've become and having their own reality shows and all that kind of thing. I mean, that's another amazing thing. But it's made food culture mainstream culture. It has. But it's made food culture mainstream culture.

It has. I think the thing that troubles me is that so often when you, I encounter a lot of people who, it's like in this culture we fetishize food and cookbooks and food-related shows. But then so many people still don't cook. You know, a lot of people are like, I don't know. You know, these people, they have TV shows and they go on restaurants. And I just don't know if I, you know, these people, they have TV shows and have all in restaurants and I just don't know if I can cook like that. And so, you know, as corny as it may sound, I really try to get people to, you know, bring out their inner chef and not get too caught up in all the hype and the, the, the corporatizing of this very exciting moment in, um, you know, food culture and thinking about all these issues. Yeah. I mean, it brings up one of the most,

maybe compelling kind of avenues of your advocacy, which is, you know, combating this notion that eating healthy, being healthy is an elitist ideal. You know, it's the purview of, you know, the upper middle class and the upper class white people shopping at Whole Foods and it's just inaccessible to everybody else. And so I'm interested in, you know, the work that you do and kind of the messaging that you put out there vis-a-vis the socioeconomic issues that face the underclass, you know, the African American population, et cetera, and kind of the role that you play as a mouthpiece to try to change this entrenched, you know, concept and get people to understand and embrace the idea that healthy eating, healthy living is accessible to all of us, irrespective of what class you find yourself in. Yeah. I mean, for me, I understand that our runaway food system is having a negative impact on everyone across the board. I mean, if you consider the multinational food corporations

and the way in which they're destroying the very foundation of a healthy food system, you know, poisoning the air, poisoning the water, poisoning the soil. I mean, in many ways you could argue they're destroying the very foundation for a habitable earth. Right. Have you seen Cowspiracy yet? No. This movie Cowspiracy? I'll get you a DVD. Oh, I want to check that out. Yeah. But it's a new documentary that speaks to all of these issues that you're talking about. So, you know, at the end of the day, I'm really invested in transforming the food system for everyone. And I understand that when we think about communities that have the least access to healthy, fresh, affordable, culturally appropriate food,

access to healthy, fresh, affordable, culturally appropriate food, I understand that so many of those communities are low-income communities of color that often don't have a voice, that often are powerless in many ways. And although, and this is something I had to come to terms with when I first started doing this work, you know, I grew up a privileged life and I can't say that I relate to all the issues that people of color living in low-income urban centers are dealing with, but I do understand the power that I have as a person of color, as an African-American man, speaking about these issues. You know, the same messages could come from, you know, a white woman, and then people just won't hear it.

A lot of low-income folks of color, but hearing it from me. If Marion Nestle gets up there, it's not going to have the same impact on the elementary school kids. Might not have the same impact. I love Marion Nestle. She's amazing. It's the messenger, you know, the message is the same or similar, I would imagine. But yeah, anyway, sorry I interrupted you. No, no. And, you know, I just think it's important for me to help people think about these lineages, this thread of eating healthy that a lot of communities have had throughout the 20th century or before. And it's just over the past 50, 60 years with the industrialization of our food system that so many people have been disconnected from those healthy eating legacies. So, you know, I talk about African-American communities and just how two generations ago, I mean, my grandparents, so many people in their community, my grandparents were like, you know, working people. They weren't, you know, affluent, but they had a real deep understanding of the importance of growing your own food, you know,

just like backyard gardens and fruit trees and nut trees on their property. And they were sharing with neighbors and giving their surplus away to their church. And so when I talk around the country, I'll ask people, how many of your grandparents had gardens or how many aunties or, you know, uncles or whatever are canning and pickling and preserving? And then everyone in the room is holding their hands up. And so it's really about helping people remember, kind of piece back these legacies and dispelling this myth that you have to be wealthy and spend all your income at, you know, some corporate-owned health food store, because I don't think that you do. And I don't think that's the solution to community

food insecurity. I think it has to be kind of on the ground, people growing their own food, and if they don't have their own land, you know, supporting local farmers markets or urban farms or community gardens. And I think that's going to be the solution, not going to the supermarkets who are trying to increase the profits for their shareholders. Right, right, right. And you're definitely walking your walk. It's easy to identify which house is yours on the block because the front yard is consumed by gardening. You're growing your own food here. But your next door neighbor looks like, what's going on over there? Because he looks like he's got a lot going on too did you did you influence that well the funny thing is so when we first i thought that was your house and i was like he's he's he's upending you over there well

i have to say um the garden hasn't been getting that much attention it looks a little bit overrun but we have a three month though so we've been focusing on the things, but, um, yeah. So when we bought our house, um, in 2008, the first thing we did was build that 100 square foot raised bed in the front. We built this 100 square foot raised bed back here. And, um, we planted a persimmon tree, fig tree, Meyer lemon, com quad, um, apple tree, just planted another apple tree. And, um, you know, the, the woman who owned the house before these folks bought it, she was so inspired by us that she built those raised beds. So they kind of inherited that.

I see. I got you. And so, you know, I always talk about just like coming out of the closet. Hey, you know, move it from the backyard into the front. And really seeing growing food at home, it's a political statement. It's just like we don't need lawns. Let's like grow some food and make sure that we can. Yeah, You don't need grass in your front yard. I mean, how about some food you could actually eat? Bingo. Exactly. Getting back to what you were saying about kind of the historical roots of African-Americans in the United States,

I mean, you're also kind of attempting to combat this presumption that it was a very kind of heavy meat, pork kind of diet. heavy meat pork kind of diet. And the reality, if you really look at the history is it was a predominantly plant-based, you know, sort of rooted in agrarian culture, diet and lifestyle. Oh yeah. I mean, you know, if you consider that before the prices of meat kind of dropped precipitously after our food system was industrialized, most working class, working poor African-Americans couldn't afford to have meat every single day, like having like this big hunk of meat at the center of the plate. It was most often on holidays and celebrations and special occasions that, you know, folks would bring out the pig and the turkeys and whatever else. And so, yeah, it's just, once again, I feel like the wider culture needs to be educated, but then even African-Americans need to be reeducated about this food history and

food legacy that a lot of people just don't realize. And, you know, just realize that it's even, you know, we could talk about the plant-based growing or growing your own food at home and eating more of a kind of plant-centric diet, but it's important for me to even talk about this legacy or this thread throughout the 20th century of African-Americans who have been health advocates, health activists or health, healthy eating advocates like, you know, the Seventh Day Adventists, you know, they've always had this faith ministry around eating vegetarian and vegan diets or Rastafarians with the Itow diet or, you know, the social justice activist and comedian Dick Gregory, you know, just care as one, like hip hoppers back when it wasn't so corporate control and it was more political and socially conscious. And so

I want people to also know that like people have before me, you know, a lot of people have talked about that and I really just see myself standing on their shoulders. Interesting. You know, if I had to think of one word that, that kind of encapsulates everything that you're doing, it's connectedness, right? Like every, everything that you say, do the actions that you take are all about drawing these connections in this disconnected world that we're in. So when we talk about food, we're talking about where did it come from? How did it get here? What does it do? What's the history behind it? Where does the, you know, how do you, like when you get up in front of kids or you go speak at colleges, like what is the approach? Like, you know, what does that talk look like?

Well, it's interesting because I, having been in college and sitting back and listening to all these lectures who have come to the university, I realized that there's this typical kind of like very dry academic lecture format that a lot of speakers have. And so for me, it's really about understanding that this is the new media generation and people just don't have this long attention span. And so my talks are like a hybrid of like lecture. But then I do a little rhyming. Like I actually, you know, do the song Beef by Keras One. Oh, you do?

I spit those lyrics. I'm going to make you do that at the end. I'd be happy to. Really? All right, we'll close it out with that. I do a little singing. I always include a cooking demo because I always say that, let me let people at least leave with some kind of practical tips and tools

that they can immediately take back and start using. And then I screen an episode from Urban Organic, which was a web series. Yeah, your web series. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. So, you know, so far. Keeping it engaged. And your cookbooks follow suit, really, because people are expecting, oh, it's, you know, on the left is how you make it. And then on the right, there's the picture of the dish. But you're really kind of reinventing, you know, what a cookbook can and should be because it's about lifestyle. So you're introducing art, you're introducing politics, you're introducing music, different kinds of

books and how all of these kind of inform, you know, food culture and, and most importantly, community. Right. So let's talk about community and the importance of community around food and changing these dynamics and these assumptions that we're living with currently. Well, I just want to go back to your whole point about connection, because I think that's an important word in terms of my own entree into this work., you know, well, the two things were happening. One, I started having a very serious yoga practice around the time that I was starting the organization and in cooking school and thinking about all these issues. But I also was fully committing to my Zen Buddhist practice.

And Zen master Thich Nhat Hanh talks about this whole idea of interconnection, you know, how there is no separation. We're all connected, whether we're looking at a tree or another animal or, you know, another human being, there is no separation. So anytime we do harm to anything else, ultimately we're harming ourselves if we don't even if we don't realize. And we see the resonance of that when we talk about, you know, cutting down the Brazilian rainforest or, you know, dumping chemicals into the ocean. Like it's going to come back and haunt us at some point. And so that was really, I call myself an eco chef, not anymore, but people still call me that. But I started, you know, describe myself as that when I was doing this work initially, because I was like, look, we need to know that

everything is connected. And when we think about, you know, eating animals, when we're supporting an industrial food system, then like horribly, I mean, just violent and horribly treats these animals so horribly, like we're doing that to ourself on some level. Um, but in, in regard to just like the community, that's been like a thread that's run throughout too, because in my first book, Grub, um, my coauthor, Anna LaPay and I, um, when we wrote the book, we were like, okay, let's write this book. Let's do a book that not only describes the issues with the industrial food system and how it's affecting human health and the environment and local economies that's effed up about it and actually move towards like being engaged individually and on the community and also on the public policy level of trying to create solutions. And so we decided to start these grub parties where we're just like,

look, let's just have people, we'll bring people together, we'll get food from the farmer's market, local farms, food co-ops, and then we'll actually use the table as a way to kind of build the movement, talking about these issues, getting people engaged around them. But, you know, the important thing for us was like shifting this idea around healthy food, because so many people think, well, if it's plant-based or if it's like, you know, whatever, using local ingredients for whatever reason, people like, oh, it's boring, it's disgusting, it's bland. And we were just like, no, this is actually going to be much more flavorful and much more exciting than any other food you eat. And so that was the way that we really tried to, um, you know, live out those

values. Yeah. And you were encouraging other people to set up their own grub parties, right? Like how did that, how did that go? How is that, you know, sort of ongoing? Well, still doing that, you know, we just kind of, we haven't been putting as much energy into it now because we've moved on to our other projects and just to maintain the website and all that we just didn't have the resources but for five years we were doing it and it was amazing i mean it started in new york and brooklyn where we're living and then we saw you know in the bay area people were doing it and and all across the country but then we were getting people from like germany from the uk from you know just different parts of the globe Like we read about these grub parties. We think it's

such a brilliant idea. And so we had an actual like map on our website when it was running, where you can actually see who was doing the grub parties and share resources. So it was, it was cool, but we just had to kind of move on from it. That's cool. Uh, back on the spiritual tip and this idea of connectedness, uh, you know, talk a little bit about how mindfulness plays into the kitchen equation, like this idea of cooking as a spiritual practice. animal products that are the product of this industrialized system you're you're not only voting for that system to perpetuate itself with the hard-earned dollars that you've spent on it but you're taking that vibration into your body right and and and when we start to talk about shifting that vibration and doing something different you know how does the kind of the preparation aspect of what you do infuse the food?

You know what I mean? We're going to get a little woo-woo-y here a little bit. No, we're in the Bay Area, so we can go there. Well, I just want to share a quick little story that was interesting. So when I went to cooking school, I had a studio in Brooklyn, and I knew I didn't want to take out any loans. I was like, I want to go to cooking school, but I don't want to take out loans. I just want to pay for it out of my pocket. And so I was working full time, going to cooking school part time. And my girlfriend at the time said that she would move in with me to help cut down costs. She'd help pay the rent and all that.

But it was a one bedroom studio in Brooklyn in the winter. And we got stir crazy. I mean, I was just flipping out. And so that was actually a good thing because that was the reason I got so deep in my yoga practice because I was like, I need to be out of the house a couple hours every day. I'm just going to go to yoga and it's going to be quiet and reflective. But I remember we would fight often. And the first time that I really understood the power of like energetics as they relate to food, I had this crazy fight with my girlfriend. And then I made a meal pretty standard. You know, it should it should have gone off without a hitch.

But it was so like heavy and disgusting. And I knew it was because I brought such like just vitriol, just negative, funky energy to the food. like just vitriol, just negative, funky energy to the food. And since then it's been, it's been like a big lesson for me, um, just, you know, for my own self and helping other people think about how, when you come to the kitchen, you need to do whatever you need to do to ground yourself, go take a walk in the forest, run around the block, meditate, but come in with the sense of like quiet, um, peaceful mindfulness, because that's the energy you want to give to the food, especially if you're feeding other people, you know, you don't want them to have that negative kind of caustic energy. And so I'm all about just like seeing cooking as a kind

of meditative practice. And even just the process of like, you know, cutting onions or sauteing, you know, like the process of caramelizing onions, which takes about 30 minutes. I'm just like, don't get tripped about it. You know, if you have some time, just see it as like a meditative practice and it'll make it much more enjoyable. Yeah, I truly believe that. I have a similar kind of story. I remember years ago, my wife and I went on a yoga retreat and we were in this cool place with, I don't know, 30 people. It was up in Santa Barbara and And there was somebody who was preparing the food and it was all plant-based, as I recall.

But this chef was super angry. She just was like an unpleasant person. And the food looked great and it tasted okay. And like almost everybody got sick. Oh, wow. And Julie's like, yeah, because she's angry. And I'm like, come on. She's like, no, I'm telling you, man.

Real talk. And then Julie will say she'll make these amazing meals at home that taste phenomenal. And then somebody else will try to make her thing and it doesn't taste quite right. And she's like, yeah, because she's not putting the vibrations right. Exactly. But, you know, the funny thing is there are these parties in the Bay Area. I forget the name of them. But, you know, the funny thing is there are these parties in the Bay Area.

I forget the name of them. It's these weekly parties that a friend of mine used to have where you had to sign up and then a bunch of strangers come, maybe like 12 different strangers into his loft in Berkeley. He'd get the food and then, you know, he'd like get recipes from different books and everyone would make the food. And I remember going to the first one because I was like, man, these people are just like amateurs. They're just kind of like throwing stuff together. A lot of professionals. No, and it was just interesting because inevitably the meals would always be just so delicious and satisfying. And it was because people just had great energy. Like the execution wasn't perfect, but it was just like the energy, the light vibe, the loving kind of like just presence was infused in the food.

And it was always good. Yeah, that's important, man. I was looking at some of your Urban Organics web series, which is pretty cool, right? And I was watching the one with your buddy who's got the restaurant in Berkeley. And then you guys go out to this urban garden. And it was amazing. Like they're growing food in gravel, right? Using, what was it called?

Aquaponics? Aquaponics, yeah. Where they have this fish tank hooked up and they're somehow filtering out the excrement of these goldfish and using that to fertilize these plants. And they're literally growing tons of food without any soil whatsoever.

Yeah. Like I'd never heard of that. That's extraordinary. It tripped me out to see that happen too. I mean, I say in the episode, like this is like science fiction to me. Like how can you grow food without soil? But yeah, you know, I think it was important for me to show people that you don't have to have like a huge yard or you don't have to have like all the resources that I think

people imagine you need just to grow some food with some creativity, with some best practices and some, you know, folks who can help you push it along. You can grow food in the most densely populated urban areas. You know, you just need some best practices. Right. I mean, along those lines, what are some of the biggest misunderstandings about food and our food system that you encounter with people that you're interacting with? Huh. I mean, for me, one of the ones that I've been pushing back against since I started doing this work is that, you know, plant centered vegetable forward food is just like, well, that it's too costly. Right. Too expensive. Yeah. So it's too expensive. It's too. Right. It's too expensive. Yeah.

So it's too expensive. It's too time intensive. It's too labor intensive. And that... Doesn't taste good. If you don't have any meat in it or some type of animal products, it's just nasty or it's not going to be fulfilling and satisfying. And so, you know, that's why, you know, I talk about doing things in community because, yes, I do understand that a lot of people might not have enough disposable income to go out and buy all these different varieties of legumes and fresh

fruits and everything. But if we do it, you know, if a group of us pool our money together and we go to the farmer's market and we go to the food co-op and then we get things collectively. And on a weekend we go to whoever has like the big kitchen with the Cuisinart and the Vitamix and, you know, the big convection oven. And then we make the meal collectively and we share it and kind of divvy it out among each other. You can have a week's worth of food that you can freeze, that you can thaw out. And it's diverse. It's good. It's homemade. And guess what? You're actually connecting and building community with people that, you know,

you probably figure you don't have enough time to do it otherwise. Yeah. But that would require me having to talk to other people. You know what I mean? Like we're, you know, we're an isolationist culture really increasingly. So we're stuck in our cars, we're at our house, you know, it's not like it used to be. And it's harder to reach out. You already have a commune already. You got about 10 people in droughts. Yeah, I know. That's true. We do. But I'm just trying to get in the mindset of the average person who isn't used to kind of doing something from a community perspective, like sort of taking that leap and trying to organize a few friends to do it. Yeah. I mean, and ultimately, part of my project is about getting people to be in the community more.

You know, the food piece is there, but it's just like, how can we break through this kind of individualized, isolationist culture that we live in and actually connect with people that we care about? And, you know, frankly, I would say some of the institutions that people are already a part of, the big communities that people are already engaging on a regular basis, These institutions need to be a part of this food movement. You know, I think about faith institutions, churches, mosques, synagogues. So many of them are about like the kind of feeding people's spirit. But I'm just like, yeah, we have that's great. And we need to think about spiritual development. But people have material needs as well. So what about these churches that have these amazing industrial kitchens that are going

unused? What about these synagogues that, you know, might be, you know, sitting on a big plot of land and it's just, you know, unused and you can grow like a garden for the people there. And so I really feel like whatever institutions we care about, we need to push them to think more about health and food and farming issues so that they can get involved in the work as well. Yeah, that's a great idea. health and food and farming issues so that they can get involved in the work as well. Yeah, that's a great idea. You know, when you look to somebody who's in a lower socioeconomic scenario, and then you kind of canvas this situation that we're in where, you know, the fast food is subsidized. It's so cheap, right? And somebody who's working two jobs or, you know, maybe a single mom or something like that. And you're trying to convince that person, listen, you know, you should be, you know, having a grub, a grub event, or, you know,

you get, you got to go to the farmer's market and when they can just do the drive-through, you know, and for five bucks feed their kids, like, how do you, how do you communicate with someone like that or try to, you know, get through to them about, you know, taking a stand for their long-term health? Well, it's funny because when I first started thinking about the role that churches could play in this, you know, I was kind of surveying a lot of the communities that statistically had some of the highest rates of hypertension, heart disease, type 2 diabetes, these preventable diet-related illnesses, and understanding that in so many of these communities, you know, people didn't have supermarkets or farmer's markets or food co-ops or wherever you can get fresh, healthy food.

And there's this adage that you go into a lot of low-income neighborhoods and urban centers, and there's a liquor store in every corner. And I would notice that there'd be a church right across the street. And so I just felt like the work of these faith institutions could actually counteract that. And so, yeah, the mom who's working two jobs and, you know, who has a couple of kids and just all the stresses of being low income, I realize it might be difficult for them to organize a grub party or for them to can and pickle and preserve. But what if the preacher actually made that a priority? um, can and pickle and preserve. But what if the preacher actually made that a priority? What if all the people in the church who, you know, um, have more resources, like actually shared, um, skills and shared space and shared their ability to help those who might not have as much. And so that's why, um, I'm excited to be the artist and resident at Grace Cathedral

in San Francisco. Yeah. When I was looking, when I was reading your bio, that was the thing that really stuck out. I was like, what is that about? I want to find out what that means because that's really unique and cool. It's interesting. I mean, Grace Cathedral is Episcopal Church, and it certainly serves the more affluent population in San Francisco. But the work that they've done has really been about engaging in the wider community. And I think, you know, before the...

All right, we got another plane. Pause, okay. I think we're all right. So since the 60s, if not before, Grace Cathedral has really been about being engaged in social movements. And this year, they decided that as a faith community, they wanted to focus on food and sustainability. So they brought me in to be the keynote speaker at their spring fundraiser, their carnival gala. And then I became friends with Bishop Mark Andes. He's the Bishop of the Episcopal Church in San Francisco. And he invited me to be the third artist in resident at the

church. And what that means is I'm curating community events and dinners and, you know, different activities to really get people in the community excited about health, food and farming issues. And it's just cool because it almost allows me to bring my book to life. It's like, OK, they hire a caterer. I design the menu. I get like, you know, musicians and poets to come and perform. And then people are like talking about food at this kind of multilayered event. It's a beautiful thing. And I like that it's artist in resident in residence. It's not chef in residence or food, food, food, politics, food, politics, activists, you know what I mean? Like, cause it allows you to bring all those other elements in and create this kind of really welcoming environment for that kind of dialogue to take place. Yeah. One of the things that you've said is, you know, you speak to kind of the dogmatic aspects of what it means to call yourself vegan and kind of what that word brings

up. And the idea of transcending that to really talk about instead, like this lifestyle or the food we eat or the way that we interact with our community as a value system. Like, what are you standing for? You know, what are you standing for in the choices that you're making about your food, about the way you interact with your neighbor, about, you know, basically every choice that you're making throughout your day. Can I just say you're an amazing interviewer? choice that you're making throughout your day. Can I just say you're an amazing interviewer. You've truly done your homework.

I try to, man. Come on. I'm not going to come in and speak to you and not know what you're about. I forget what we were just talking about. Just say whatever, man. No, no. Just jog my rest. The idea of the way you live your life being a reflection of your values. Oh, yeah. As opposed to a dogmatic label. Yeah. The idea of of of the way you live your life being a reflection of your values. Oh, yeah. As opposed to a dogmatic label. Yeah.

It's you know, it goes back to me being dogmatic, just ideologue about these issues when I was in high school. And, you know, the thing is, I just want people to to really be like in process, not just thinking about the end goal. So my end goal is to be really healthy and to be super, I don't know, fit or just to stave off, prevent any diet-related illnesses. And I think that's important. But the process is important, too. And what I see so many people doing so often is just kind of choosing whatever they imagine as the healthiest diet, you know, whatever the fantasy is, especially when they're thinking about, you know, just like having an overall healthier, you know, lifestyle and then just following the script accordingly.

And I just think we're so complicated and we need to have such a more nuanced approach to diet, you know, and the media, the corporate kind of media is always upholding these new fat diets. You know, paleo, paleo vegan, then low fat or whatever. That gets page views. You know what I mean? Like, how do we package this narrative and, you know, sell it so that we're going to get people to come and read whatever we're putting out there? Bingo. But, you know, for me, I'm just like, well, just really consider, like, what are your values?

And we're talking about eating in alignment with how we want to be in the world. Like, what are your values? How do you want this? You know, how do you want to be in relationship with animals? How do you want to see the environment treated in your local community globally, given the impact that that has? But what, you know, in terms of your own health and well-being, I just think we need to think about these multiple factors that kind of we should include in a healthy diet. Like what geography? Like where are you living? What's being grown locally?

What season is it? You know, in the industrial food system, you can get strawberries any time of year. But, you know, you probably don't need to be eating strawberries in the dead of winter in a like chicago or something right or you don't need your water to come from fiji either right exactly um so yeah i just want people to think i want people to think and i understand people planning the poll around veganism and and and and why some people are very adamant about like labeling themselves that in reaction to our kind of like carnivorous meat centric standard American diet. But I also realize that a lot of people, you know, when they move from a standard American diet to a more kind of plant based diet, I've seen people just like, you know, they're going hardcore for six weeks. And then all of a sudden they slip up in quotes and, you know, drink some, eat some ice cream or have a piece of chicken.

And they're like, well, F it. I'm just going to go back to eating chicken every day and hour. Yeah, it's too hard, you know, or they slide down the shame spiral or something like that. And then they're out of the game completely as opposed to just being like it goes back to mindfulness. All right. Well, you know what was going on with me when I made that decision? What's the next best decision to make? And embracing the idea that you are a human being and, you know, like we're not perfect and that's not what this is about. And I think when you start creating labels that kind of

cause people to feel compelled to adhere to some standard that might not be realistic for where they are in their journey, that that's a setup for failure. Yep. I agree. You know, but to be fair, you are the Afro vegan on Twitter and like three out of four of your books have the word vegan in the title. So you, you're reconciling, you know, this, this sort of, you know, transcending that kind of dogma with also kind of, you know, leveraging as well, I suppose. Well, the funny thing is I actually didn't want vegan in my prior two books. I was excited. This

Afro vegan, my latest book was the first time I was super excited about having vegan in the book, but the other two, I just, I felt like it would narrow the market. I knew that having vegan in the title would just like push a lot of people away. And I really wanted to present a book that was, you know, centered around like vegetables and plant based foods. But that also just prize eating like fresh food, eating local, you know, sustainable food. And this incenses me when I get like or I read these tweets or, you know, see messages like, oh, man, it's this book Afro Vegan Out. And it seems so cool. I'm going to get that from my vegan great, great uncle. And I'm just like, you know, you don't have to be a vegan to enjoy just really plant, you know, delicious plant centered food. Um, but you know, I get it. Publishers,

they need to package it in a way that makes sense for the consumer. Right. So that was a fight with the publishers. They, they felt strongly that that word had to be in there. They did. They just felt like people couldn't grasp it without vegan in the title. And so it is what it is. And I think now, I don't think veganism is scary. It's moved from the margins closer to the center of people's culinary consciousness. And when you have like Jay-Z and Beyonce doing a whatever, two-week all-vegan diet. I think they made it a couple weeks.

Yeah. Well, you know. That's better than not. I mean, listen, they're probably the most influential tastemakers and important people in our culture. And that was a big deal. I mean- Even if it didn't last. I mean, just to even know that that was something that they tried is interesting. Yeah. And just the fact that they tried it for several weeks, it just brought the consciousness around eating vegan to a whole set of people who probably never would have thought about it that much. Right. I was talking to Brendan Brazier and, you know, he has his Thrive series of books and he, we were talking about this very issue, like, should the word vegan be in the title or not? And he was telling me that his, I don't know

which one it is, maybe his main book, Thrive, basically sells just as well in Canada as it has in the United States. And the only difference is that the Canadian version doesn't use the word vegan in the title. And the American publisher, for the same reasons that your publisher was saying, you know, felt strongly that that word should be in there. And he thinks that that has been a hindrance in reaching a wider audience. I get it. And we were talking before the podcast, like, we have our cookbooks coming out this spring. And that's a discussion that we're having right now.

And I think that, like, right now the word vegan is in the subtitle. But, you know, I'm thinking that we'd be better off without it. I want to cast a wide net. I want to really big welcome that. And it's not about a label and it's not about classifying people in one category or the other. It's about great food and building community around that. Yes. And I just want to say big up to my Canadian fans.

I just love Canadians. Not that Canadians are a monolith, but my fans in Toronto and Vancouver, I feel like they're so earnest and supportive and just about really celebrating just grounded good work. Yeah, I agree with that wholeheartedly. I haven't been to Vancouver yet, but every time I go to Toronto, I just have an insanely awesome experience. And I find people so engaged and so excited. And the community that they're building around these ideas, you know, not just vegan food, but sustainability and, you know, all of this stuff that we're talking about here today, I just find it to be so dynamic and engaged there. I love going there. Have you done the Toronto VegFest?

Yeah, I've done it twice. I didn't do it this past year, but with our cookbook coming out, hopefully I'll be back there again. Nice. Next fall, yeah. I did it this year. Oh, you did? How was it?

I felt like a rock star. I know, right? It's unbelievable. It's great. And it's just cool to see a city where there's, like, such a huge, like, serious vegetarian and vegan population. And the food was amazing. And it was just good vibes all around. Yeah, that VegFest, they do it right there.

And the turnout that they get is insane. Crazy. So many people. You know, and you'd think, because it happens at the same time that the film festival is going on. Right. So there's a ton of people in Toronto. And you think, well, everyone's there for the film festival. I'm like, no.

I mean, one year. The first time I went, it was raining. Like, the first day it rained. And they're like, oh, no. But still, like, so many people. It didn't matter. Like, they still came out. Nice.

Nice. And, you know, I went to the DC VegFest this year. Oh, you did? I did that one. Yeah, I didn't do it this year oh yeah i did that one too yeah i didn't do it this year but i did the two years before okay how was it turned out when you went it was good it was crazy i was surprised i was like i'm first of all i'm surprised at how many people here but also surprised at the diversity i mean there are just like like so many interesting diverse people there and so you know to me that just speaks to where we are around these issues. And it's just like even people, everyone's not necessarily interested in having a full on vegan diet.

But I think more people are open to doing like meatless Mondays or vegan before six or not feeling like you need to have meat at every meal. And like you said, I feel like those are positive steps. Yeah, yeah, yeah, for sure. And I think also with young parents who have, you know, kids come into the picture and, of course, every parent wants what's best for their kid and what's, you know, how am I going to feed my, you know, kid and make him healthy and looking at what school lunch is like. Like there's just an openness and awareness now that didn't exist even maybe five years ago.

Yeah. So how has having kids kind of changed your perspective on all of this? I mean, you're managing a lot with two little ones right now. Yeah. You know, the thing that I have seen as a parent of what, three and a half years now, the most powerful tool that we can employ as parents is modeling. You know, having a kid has just made me be more disciplined about the way that I'm just living and being in the world in general. But even around food, you know, it's just like everything from like eating more mindfully, not stuffing my face, you know, if I'm stressed out or feeling whatever, not like using food as a way to kind of like, you know, modulate your emotions. Yeah.

And, um, you know, let me say something to all the parents out here, don't make separate meals for your kids. Like make your kids should eat what you eat. And that's how they have an interesting and diverse kind of, um, uh, adventuresome palate is by just eating everything you eat. I mean, you might need to tone down the spices, but you know, when our girl was, our oldest girl, when she was, before she was eating solid foods, we would literally take the stems from collards when we would cook collard greens and we would give those to her to gnaw on.

Yeah. And, you know, we didn't even introduce her to the flavors of fruits for the first year because we were like, we want her to have like an appreciation for like bitter and like a lot of the taste that Americans typically kind of have an aversion to. Right. And yeah, she is like her treats. She's like, oh, my God, we're like, oh, if you don't do if you don't clean your room up, you won't get an apple. And she's like, Oh no, no, no, no. I'll clean it up. I'll clean it up. I want an apple. So like what she desires is typically things that parents might have to force their kids to eat. And it's just about starting as soon as they come out, like really understanding that you shape their desires around food. Yeah. It's a top-down thing and you have to walk your walk. Kids are smarter than we give them credit for. And if you're, you know, sneaking around with the hog and dog, you know, you think they don't know, they know.

You know, they know what's up. And so you can't be duplicitous. You know, if you're eating Haagen-Dazs and that's your thing, that's fine. But just don't be cagey about it. You know what I mean? I think you have to just be, you have to be transparent and understand that they're taking their cues from you, you know. to be transparent and understand that they're taking their cues from you. Another thing is in regard to child rearing, we started getting our girl involved in the kitchen in terms of food prep when she was a year old.

We would put her down on the floor and we have a little station where we give her some greens and we tell her to tear the greens into bite-sized pieces. And then we have a little bowl with water and we let her like shake them out and then put them in the colander. And now she's, you know, simple things, but like pounding up the coarse sea salt in the mortar with the pestle. Yeah, you're in one of your 18 mortar and pestles that you collect. Exactly.

So, yeah, just get those kids involved. I think parents are scared of that you know they're they think it's dangerous in the kitchen and there's this idea that we need to keep kids kind of free and clear of that but that has been by far the most transformative and powerful tool that we've implemented just bringing them in like with the shopping as well let's go to the market it's a learning experience like why are we choosing this and not this? And what's different about this green from that green? And the more like involved they are, the more, the greater and the deeper the emotional attachment. And there's nothing like a young kid who learns how to make a certain recipe and then they want to make that, man.

They're proud. You know, it is an esteemable act. It's something that creates self-esteem in your child. And there's a pride that comes with that. And that's starting habits correctly from the beginning. And it's really powerful. Yeah, it's really about laying that foundation because I realize that she may get to a point when she's in junior high and when she's in her rebellious teens and tweens where she's like, you know, I want to eat crappy food or I don't want to eat this healthy stuff anymore. But I think, you know, should she choose to go that route, she'll come back to this foundation, you know? And so, um, that's why I just think it's about doing all you can. And then

there's a certain point where it's just like, they're going to do what they're going to do. And you just have to trust it. Right. But they have that foundation, right. And that that's always there. So kids are going to go through their phases. I mean, the way we've kind of, you know, rode that wave is to be very, you know, we don't create hard and fast rules. We're just, we just prepare them for the world. And then, and then we trust that they're going to, you know, make the right decision and they're not, they're going to go out and make bad decisions. And that's just another opportunity to have a dialogue and a discussion. It's not about them being in trouble. It's just, okay, so what happened? Okay, good. Well, maybe next time make a different choice.

And I think the more open and kind of inviting you can be to having that kind of dialogue, then the more likely you are that they're going to take you up on engaging you on that level instead of shutting down emotionally. See, these are things I need to hear. I need this coaching for you, Rich. But I think you're doing it right right now, which is cool. But I was also going to say when I started Be Healthy, the organization I founded in New York, one of the kind of cornerstones of our program was understanding that when you had young people who, I mean, we would have young people come in our program like,

look, I don't eat vegetables. I haven't eaten a vegetable since I was nine years old. Or I don't drink water. I drink Coke every day. And it might sound absurd to some of the listeners, but this is just the reality for a lot of these kids. And when we would take them to urban farms or local, you know, a farm in a rural area or the farmer's market, and then they got a chance to choose the vegetables and understand that process from seat to table. And then we go back and have them cook the food.

They would try, you know, under no other circumstance would they try some quinoa salad with cranberries or whatever. But if they made it, they tried it. And the more they tried different things, the more it opened up their palate. And they understood that, you know, in comparison to like these processed package fast, horrible foods, it might seem like they're good, but they're just ultimately unsatisfying when you think about just the rich kind of deeply satisfying flavor of whole real foods. And so, you know, once again, just starting with the visceral, you can talk all you want, but you got to give young people like this very practical experience. And then that will lead them further than you lecturing them. Right, right. And what's going on in Oakland

right now? Because I know it's sort of like, you know, Oakland's kind of a leader in this sustainability movement. So what's Oakland doing that's new and interesting that other cities could model? Funny that you asked that. Well, my wife and I actually have jumped on this. You didn't prompt me with that question by the way that's made it sound canned but it wasn't at all do you know this guy um in canada nard war nard war he's like he's like this music guy anyway his whole shtick is he does these interviews with um musicians and he has done such thorough research that they're like how the hell did you know that i feel like you're kind of like him.

But anyway. It's just the internet now. I know. You're out there. There's a lot of shit on you on the internet. True. It's easy to do. It's true.

But, you know, one thing I'm really excited about is my wife and I are actually, my wife is an organizational development consultant. And so we have joined this project to help initiate this Oakland Unified School District is starting a central kitchen in which they're going to be making real food for the kids in public schools in Oakland. And they're starting a farm in which they'll be growing a lot of food and they'll be using it as a site for educating young people. And I think this is revolutionary. That is because the entrenched politics around school lunch is so cronied out. You know what I mean? To be even able to make a tiny change in that, let alone something like what you're talking about. I mean, that is that's huge.

So how did that get pushed through? I mean, when you have the Cisco's and these, you know, companies that are that are, you know, sourcing the food for school lunch, there's so much money at stake. Yeah. I mean, we're just starting the project, so I'm really not clear about just the politics that it took to get to this place. And I'm sure that it was a lot of wrangling. But I'm just excited that whatever it did take, the school board saw it as a priority and they want to move forward with it. The role that I'm going to be

playing is helping to engage the community and then really helping translate a lot of the issues. Like we talked about earlier, me being this person that they might be able to relate to and just getting people excited about it and feeling invested in having this as something that their kids will be able to enjoy and then, you know, could potentially transform the city as we know it.

Yeah, because what happens to those kids when they're 25, 30 years old and they've had that experience? You know, how is that going to further seed the community? It's really cool. Yeah. There's so many interesting things happening right now. Before, earlier today, before I came over to see you, I went over to Hampton Creek. Oh, I love those guys. Have you been over there?

I haven't. Oh, man. You got to go tour what they're doing over there. Where is it? It's right, it's like in the Mission. Oh, it's in the city. Yeah, it's in the city. Yeah, or South Market.

And what's really cool is that for people who don't know hampton creek is this company that uh is creating plant-based alternatives to eggs and mayonnaise and all sorts of other kinds of the best mayonnaise i know they have a product called just mayo they've just uh cut deals with costco and walmart so now Just Mayo is basically available everywhere, not just at Whole Foods. And what was amazing is, well, there's a lot of amazing things. I mean, first of all, instead of using eggs, they're finding plant protein alternatives that are basically pure protein and sustainably sourced. So the kind of carbon footprint of what it takes to produce these foods is really

low. It's low in water usage and all these kinds of things. And it's run like a startup tech, not like a food company. So you walk into this like groovy office and they just have one huge table where there's a bunch of young people on laptops that are handling whatever they're handling, like sales or whatever. And then literally right next to them is this huge lab where there's all these mad scientists who are literally with microscopes and vials and, and then they have hot plates and they're cooking. The whole place smells like food. So it's all like in one room. It's crazy. So you have like the culinary experts who are in charge of taste are talking to the bioengineers who are, you know, working on the, at the micron level to like try to make these foods taste. And it's on some level, it's like bizarre. You're like, what is going on here?

You know? But when you talk to these guys, you realize like, oh, they're re-imagining our food system. Like this is the future and it's happening right now. You know, this idea that, and this is something I talked with Kathy Freston about on the podcast a couple of weeks ago, that animal agriculture is just, it's just outdated technology. It's completely unsustainable. It's incredibly wasteful. It's killing our planet. It's making us unhealthy. All these sorts of things. When you add it all up, you're like, this is pure insanity. Like we need a better way. And in the way that like Elon Musk is re-imagining the car, you know, these people are re-imagining like the kind of food that we're going to eat. And they gave me like, they made like this French toast and then

they made this like scrambled egg with like onions in it. It was freaking delicious. You know, I could not tell the difference. And they have this like chocolate chip with like onions in it. It was freaking delicious. Wow. You know, I could not tell the difference. And they have this like chocolate chip, you know, cookie batter stuff. And they made, I could not tell the difference between a regular chocolate chip cookie and this cookie. It's insane. And that's the thing that's exciting about, you know, not just Oakland, but the Bay Area in general is that you just have this convergence of like, you know, this being kind of one

of the epicenters of like food movement. But then you have the tech industry here and all these ways in which they're kind of coming together are so exciting. I mean, there are a number of conferences around like the intersection of food and tech and, you know, doing things around building food apps or just thinking about how to map cities. And, you know, so I just feel like the California, but particularly the Bay Area, has always been on the cutting edge of progressive politics and now technology. So it's exciting to see how we can bring them together and just move forward in a progressive way in the 21st century. a mindset of questioning authority and, you know, some level of irreverence that they're able to, you know, young people can look at a way things are done. And instead of saying, well, that's just the way things are done. They go, that thing is freaking broken, you know, like let's, let's figure out a better way. And then actually to do it. It's just, it's really inspiring. Yep. So

is that why you moved here from New York? Why'd you move from Brooklyn? It's all happening in Brooklyn too. Yeah. Um, well making, uh, artisanal pickles there or something. Well, you know, part of it was a woman, uh, real story. That was a major pull factor. But honestly, in the summer of 2003, uh, this organization, the people's grocery, who's really been on the cutting edge around community food justice work. They invited me to come out and teach at their collards and commerce program that they started. And within the first week of being here, I was like, I have to move here. Like, why am I living in New York? This is utopia in the Bay Area. And so two years later, I moved out. And then little did you know that this would be the epicenter of all the things that you're interested in doing. Yeah, no, it's perfect. Especially given that I travel so much, it's so perfect to be able to land here. And, you know, just, I mean, like for me growing up in the

South and then having lived in New York City, it's like the perfect medium. It's like all the advantages of a major metropolitan city, but then you have like the ocean, the mountains, the, you know, everything you want is within an hour and a half. I'm not arguing with you. I'm making it. Well, maybe I shouldn't. I was going to say, I'm making a pitch for other people to move here, but it's too crowded. Don't come here. No, it's just the traffic here is bad. People complain about the traffic. And actually it wasn't so bad getting here today when I was down in Palo Alto the other day, though, it was bad. It's insane down there. Yeah, it's crazy. Yeah.

All right. Well, let's talk a little radical politics. You know, like maybe, you know, I was thinking it might be a good idea to, for the uninitiated or maybe somebody who's new to this podcast to kind of explain, you know, the basics of our food system right now and what's broken about it in terms of, you know, how our food is basically mass produced for the general population? I mean, honestly, I don't feel like I can articulate that that well. I feel like I've been kind of disconnected from the kind of internal mechanisms of our food system and even the policy issues. And, you know, I feel like that was such the foundation of me doing that work is studying it and knowing it. And then, you know, you get into this mode where you're just doing the work, but you're not able to like reflect on. Well, you're living in the solution. You're living in the solution, not the problem.

Yeah. And so it's interesting you say that because it's something I've been really excited to kind of get back to. And so when I was just came from New York City and I did a talk at the Beard House, James Beard House and Foundation in New York City. And they some of the staff told me about this new chef policy program where they take a group of about 15 chefs and then you go to some weird, cool location. And then it's just like a week, a bootcamp where for a week you're learning about policy. You're learning about like, what are the contemporary like ills of our food system? And, um, you know, just really for, for,

for people who've been doing the work, but need that kind of like re-education or people who kind of care about the issues, but haven't been thinking about policy and activism. It's just really to reground people or ground people in those issues. And so I'm really excited to be able to kind of step away from just like being in the solution and doing the work and just have some reflective time to, I don't know, reboot and think about like, how can I continue to do work that's relevant and not just be like coasting off of what I started back in 2001. Right, right, right. Well, but I think like, all right, well, let's talk about the commoditization of terms like organic or sustainable and the way kind of these on some

level, I suppose, have been co-opted for commerce and why we should care about something being organic? Or what does it really mean for a food that we're purchasing to be sustainable? Well, it was interesting talking about the co-opting of these terms. When I was in New York, I remember there was this huge fight and we were doing a lot of organizing because it was this moment where the USDA was attempting to redefine what organic was. And I remember one of the big sticking points was that they were actually going to allow like stuff that had like sewer sludge in it to be defined as organic. And people were pushing back like, what the hell are you talking about? Like, how could you even go there? But, you know,

I hosted a show on PBS several years ago called The Endless Feast. And we would travel around the country talking to farmers and local artisans and different food producers. And the one thing that was I left from that experience very clear about is that one of the most important things that we can do is knowing the people who grow our food. Like getting a chance to like go to the farmer's market or go to local farms and talk to the different farmers and the farm workers. Because it's interesting, getting that kind of USDA certification of being organic is sometimes cost prohibitive for a lot of small independent organic farmers or just farmers who are trying to grow food sustainably. Because you have to retrofit your facility and there are some rigorous restrictions that cost a lot of money in order to make sure that you're meeting that. But also at the same time, the counterbalance to that is that the USDA is a political organization.

It's not immune from politics. It's quite the contrary. influenced by vested interests that are pushing them to change this definition so that whatever food they're producing is going to meet that criteria because if they can slap that label on it, they're going to sell more or they can charge more. I mean, the USDA, their standards are so much lower than the standards that were set by farmers in the 1990s in California. I mean, they had really high rigorous standards about what could be considered organic. But like you said, the USDA, they have so many different vested interests from the lobbyists and the multinational food corporations that they're not trying to make it harder. They're

trying to make it easier for folks to label it. But I talk to farmers. I go to farmer's markets. I talk to these farmers. I visit farms. And the thing that I hear most often is, look, markets. I talk to these farmers, I visit farms. And, you know, the thing that I hear most often is, look, we have these sustainable growing practices. We don't use pesticides and we can't afford to label our things organic. But, you know, our stuff is just as good as something that you'd find in a Whole Foods or any other corporate owned supermarket. And, you know, I'm not like I shop at Whole Foods. I'd be the first to admit that. But I think it's important to realize that buying your food at Whole Foods or any corporate owned supermarket is not the solution. And one of the things that is, you know, I always say go to the farmer's market or go to these farms, because when you buy directly from these growers, like you're supporting your neighbor. They're getting sometimes 90 cents on every dollar you spend when you spend directly with them. But when you get it from the supermarket, then it's just like, you know, the money's going towards packaging and shipping and all these other things.

And they might just get like a fraction of the dollar that you're spending. And so especially at Whole Foods. You said it, not me. Well, I just know from, you know, startup small food companies, first of all, how difficult it is to get into Whole Foods. And then really how not profitable it is for the actual food manufacturer or whatever that, you know, company is. It's really just an advertisement for their brand that kind of says we're for real. We're legit. We're Whole Foods.

But the deals that they drive there are, you know, at times so onerous that they're really not making any money. I talked to farmers who would sell their tomatoes to one of these corporate owned supermarkets. Did you just mention? He says with a wry smile across his face. And they would talk about like them buying their tomatoes for like 75 cents per pound, but then selling them for like five bucks per pound. And these people are livid. They're just like, it's exploitative, but then they just feel stuck so often because they might not have the avenue to sell it directly to the consumer. And so we just got to make sure that these farmers are supported. Those are the people who care for us

and are really trying to make sure that they do it with integrity. Yeah, a couple observations. I mean, first of all, Whole Foods has done more for this movement than, you know, any other large organization. I mean, just the interest level alone of the average consumer and, you know, where our food comes from can be pinpointed back to the fact that there are Whole Foods everywhere and that creates community around these ideas. So that's a fantastic thing. But I think ultimately the success of this movement depends upon the profitability of these smaller producers and the extent to which we're willing to support them financially. Because profitability is going,

we're in a capitalist society, you know what I mean? Like we need to put our money where our mouth is. And I know that your whole thing is, not only you go to all these farmers markets and go to these urban gardens, but you engage these people like you're you develop a relationship with these farmers and you ask them the questions and they know you and you know them. Yeah. So what about people who live in a place where there are no farmers markets? See, what do you usually say to those people? That's the tough thing because I do travel the country and see communities in which there might be a paucity of farmers markets or urban farms, but they have all foods. And this is often the only resource that people have for getting organic and vegetables, or even just having a diversity of

kind of more health supportive foods. So then the elitism argument becomes more challenging. It does. But then, you know, when I step outside of that narrative and understand that, kind of seeing the possibility, you know, my frame of reference is often California, where we can grow food year round, where most of the country is getting their food shipped from. But then I see places like Growing Power in Milwaukee, Wisconsin. saw this need and has started this amazing project that is creating jobs, that's bringing more healthy food to the community. And that's actually, you know, just transforming the way that people are thinking about health, food and farming issues. And year round there, they have these indoor growing facilities where they're like, you know, aquaponics. We talked about earlier, they're raising fish, they're growing vegetables.

And they're just like, you know, vegetables um and they're just like you know for me it's just like one thing to talk about california but when you talk about a place like milwaukee where it's freezing in the dead of winter and outside you couldn't grow anything but they're growing year-round in these places so i just say that to say that there are um examples of you know doing it in the circumstance in in these places, we just imagine you could never do it. I just think it takes the awareness. And that's why I created the Urban Organic Series, just so people can even see the possibility. And then I think it's about like, really just learning from the best practices and not feeling like you need to reinvent the wheel and then just trying to

create something from the ground up. Right. And is that in, are they using greenhouses there? Are they using lighting inside warehouses or how does that work? I think a little bit of both. Greenhouses, hoop houses, warehouses that they convert into these growing facilities and they're making it happen. That's amazing. Yeah. You're sort of like the Anthony Bourdain of the plant-based version, right? Like the series. You need a real TV show, man. We are in the process of raising money to do some more episodes and it would be great

if we could bring it to TV because ultimately it's about like that. You know, I always think about like, how can we use mass media? How can we use pop culture? How can we use new media to really kind of spread these ideas? Because we know, I mean,

you know, with the young people, I'm like, look, you can talk about making these autonomous decisions as much as you want. Well, I just eat at McDonald's because that's what I want to eat every day. But there's like massive influence that is coming from these corporations and they're using art, they're using culture, they're getting the biggest artists on the globe to sell their products. And so I just feel like we need to do the kind of create our own counter narrators and media, just like you're doing with podcasts. Yeah. Yeah. Uh, I mean, so along those lines, like, what are you looking into right now? Like what's exciting you? What's, you know,

what's the next step? Well, one of the next steps is, um, this, um, children's book that my wife and I are working on. Um, my wife is going to be illustrating and part of it is around this whole, um, reality of the lack of diversity in children's book. You know, the New York Times did a big piece on it. NPR has done a couple of pieces on just how there aren't enough black and brown faces in children's book. And so we want to do a book that reflects like what our daughters look like and talking about these issues that are so important to us. You know, getting kids thinking about cooking and going to the farmer's market and, you know, visiting farms. And so for me, having that as something that some kid who lives in a community where they don't talk about these issues, but, you know, they're three years old and then they're seeing these girls are like, oh, they're going to the farmer's market. And then

they're taking the food back and cooking. And I just see that as a powerful way to influence kids. Really powerful. And for the listener who may not powerful way to influence kids. Yeah, really powerful. And for the listener who may not know, your wife is of Asian descent, right? Yeah, she's Chinese American, born in San Francisco, grew up in Berkeley. Did she go to Berkeley? She did go to Berkeley. Berkeley High, Berkeley. Oh, wow.

Hold on. Then Princeton. Uh-huh. All right. Well, we got to talk about one thing. We got to talk about the Thug Kitchen. Oh! Let's go. Well, we got to talk about one thing. We got to talk about the Thug Kitchen. Let's go.

So you wrote this incredibly poignant, incredibly well-written piece. Thank you. On a book that came out recently called Thug Kitchen. It's a plant-based cookbook. It happens to be a number one New York Times bestseller this week. How about that? Which is kind of, it's interesting. Um, and the book is, uh, I saw it in urban outfitters the other day. Like it's all it's everywhere. Right. And it brings up a lot of issues, uh, for a lot of different people, both positive and negative. And I've been trying to, you know, sort of wrap my head around like where I fall on the whole thing. And then I came across your article and it was so beautifully stated.

So let's hear it, man. Well, it's interesting because I heard about the kitchen maybe about a year ago. The blog was founded in the fall of 2012, so I was about a year late. But, you know, given the work that I've done around trying to have a positive impact on kids who may speak like this or may speak like the early iteration of the blog, I think we— Well, let's break down what the blog—if somebody's listening listening they've never heard of it before so they started this the thug kitchen was a blog started in fall of 2012 and it's you know profanity laced um memes that are kind of geared towards getting people um to make plant-based recipes so you know their whole um tagline is um eat like you give a bo-U-C-K. Um, can I curse on this one? So eat like you give a fuck. And, um, you know, it was interesting because given the work that I've done, I was like,

oh, wow. Like this nameless thug, is this like some young person of color who lives in a low income urban community trying to actually do some culturally and linguistically appropriate outreach to get other young, quote-unquote, thugs thinking about eating more healthily. And I thought it was brilliant. I'm just like, okay, yeah, this is a very exaggerated stereotype of African-American street vernacular,

but some of the language that they were using in the beginning of the blog was clearly lifted from black films and black comedies and black hip-hop artists and the kind of lingo and phrases that they were using in the beginning of the blog was clearly, you know, lifted from black films and black comedies and black hip hop artists and the kind of lingo and phrases that they were using. And so for a lot of people, especially people who are doing this work around impacting, you know, folks of color thinking about eating more healthfully, there was this hope like, okay, this could be interesting. This could be like a very culturally appropriate way of getting people to think differently about it. And then fast forward to what a month to two weeks ago before a week before the their book, because they got a book deal.

So they got the blog is hugely popular, like a massive audience, half a million followers on Facebook, you know, very rabid fans. And and to be clear, they have a very diverse fan base. It's not like, okay, it's just like white folks. They have a lot of people of color who are really into the blog, even after the reveal that the blog, the people behind the blog and the book are a white couple living in Hollywood. And that was revealed maybe a week before the book came out. Right. Because it's Thug Kitchen by Thug kitchen. So they remained anonymous as long as possible. But of course, when you have a book come out, then it's, they're going to have to show their faces at some point. It was, it was inevitable,

but it seemed like they waited until it was, you know, couldn't, it couldn't go on any longer. Yeah. Um, which I'm sure was part of the marketing, you know, plan as well, just to kind of stir up some controversy immediately before the book was published. But for me, writing, and I have to say, I did not want to write this essay. I really did because every, like, it was just too many like easy stereotypes, angry black man, angry vegan, angry, like far leftist from the Bay area. It's just like, okay, how cliche. You're going to have this problem with this book. And then that, yeah, then that pigeon holds you as the poo-pooer and the, you know, the party pooper, who's going to be the guy who's like, you know,

raining on this parade of, of awesome. Yeah. Right. Because the book is very well produced. And this is a book about getting people who ordinarily would never entertain the idea of being vegan or buying a vegan cookbook to buy a vegan cookbook and to make plant-based meals. And it's fun and it's irreverent. And, you know, my perspective has always been we need every different voice in this movement because there's all different kinds of people out there. And you got to meet people where they're at. because there's all different kinds of people out there and you got to meet people where they're at. And if this is going to bring people in, in this kind of fun and unique way,

then that's great, you know? And then, but I was thinking of it just in that context. And then I read your article and I was like, well, there's a different, you know, a different idea. And I need to think about that. And, you know, me writing the article, those words were my words. But it was also the sentiment of a lot of people who felt betrayed, who felt upset, who were enraged by the fact that there was this young white couple in Hollywood who wrote this blog.

frustration and anger around it because you know what i've read and seen the the whoever's administering their um their facebook page was going through and methodically deleting any type of criticism or critique and they weren't engaging people about like what people were feeling and i just felt like it was important for people's voice to be heard you know a lot of people charged in with this kind of digital blackface where they were like using these very exaggerated stereotypes of um african-american men and um you know because the whole thing is around like the use of the word thug coupled with the kind of like phrases and language of african-american street vernacular and you know a lot of people have charged well no no no no oh chop let me explain something so the the word thug comes from the 15th century Hindi, thuggy, which means a roaming band of criminals. And I'm just like, look.

Yeah, like, let's get real, right? Like, what does every single person think of when they hear the word thug? You know, in a contemporary context, we know. I mean, and even in an interview that I read with Matthew and Michelle, the founders of the blog, they argued that that word thug has changed so much since they started the blog. Well, they started in the fall of 2012. In February 2012, that year was when George Zimmerman killed Trayvon Martin. And we saw the constant kind of like, you know, use of the word thug to criminalize this young black boy who was killed. And, you know, subsequently with Renisha McBride and Dearborn, Michigan and Jordan Davis in Jacksonville, Florida and Mike Johnson and Mike Brown in Ferguson, Missouri. And so I feel like it's disingenuous for them to say, well, we didn't

know what thug means to us. It just means being a badass in the kitchen. And I just feel like, well, why not name it badass kitchen? Well, there's something disingenuous about that because if that was really the case, then they wouldn't have a problem putting their names on the book or not being anonymous. But I think it's less about the choice of words and, you know, sort of trying to, you know, put something out that's in that vein than it is about the sort of the hiding or or the lack of authenticity that surrounds it you know what i mean if they were transparent from the beginning like this is who we are and we're just doing this for fun because it's it kind of has a stand-up comedy kind of aspect to it um then i think the conversation would be a little

bit different yeah and i think if you know blog were, if it were revealed, because once again, I don't think we can reduce it to simply a black and white issue. I think if it were revealed that the person behind the blog were like, you know, Paul Wall, the white rapper from Houston, Texas, or I don't know, this guy Riff Raff from Florida or Yellow Wolf from Alabama, you know, it's like, these are people that you would, I mean, they speak like that. Right. They can, they can, they can own that, that spot in a way that when you hear the authors of the blog and the book talking, you're like, no, it's very clear that this is not how you speak. And it's, it's, it's mocking. But I think one of the big issues I have,

and I've talked about this in an article was was that ultimately, I think what, you know, the visual, what was kind of like the rub, the visual gag was that, oh, you have like some thug, you know, because when we talk about thug kitchen, you know, as much as people want to say, well, thug has no color. Thug could be like, I thought thug just meant, you know, some, you know, ruffian or someone who's just engaged in a criminal activity. When you look at when you listen to the language that's being used in the way of structure, it's clear that it's not like, you know, some Italian mafia thug or it's not some, you know, hell's angel thug. This is like a black or person of color living in some dystopian block in the hood. And so the gag I see is that, oh, yeah, how hilarious to have some thug in the hood

talking about eating arugula or tempeh or making some black bean tacos. Ha, ha, ha, that would never happen. And as we talked about earlier, there's a history of African-Americans having healthful diets and promoting plant-based diets. So I feel like it was just a bad joke, but you know, at the end of the day, I just think that they need to have a little humility. Okay. So it got out of hand. They made a joke, you know, if that was their intent or whatever, people are hurt, people upset. And I think they can at least acknowledge it and then say that they made a mistake. But when you listen to their interviews, it's kind of like, they just give some perfunctory answers that just skirt around

people's feelings of betrayal or being upset. And they don't truly- They're not engaging in that conversation in a way that makes the people that are experiencing these emotions feel like they're being heard. Yeah. It's like they don't want to be held accountable. That's on them. I mean, Hey, from a business perspective, they're killing it. You know, number one on New York best times, bestseller list. They're probably selling tons of books. So, I mean, it might've been a thing where, you know, when it began, they probably couldn't have imagined it would, it would become the thing that it has become. And it just, it just did, you know know maybe without enough foresight or you know thought

about the impact that it might have like it's just it became it's become a cultural phenomenon right yeah um so and that's why i feel like you know it's not and and i just don't want to come across as angry i'm just you know it's i don't we live in such an anti-intellectual culture it's like you know it's important for us to have dialogue about these issues. It's important for us to engage ideas. And so, you know, I understand that they probably went on this trajectory that it's just like, oh, what what happened? Like where we went from doing a fun little blog to all of a sudden we're like New York Times bestsellers. And so that's why I just feel like it's okay. We're human. Like just say you made a mistake. And I think people would at least be willing to just like kind of hear that and then

not feel so charged about the issue. Interesting. Um, was the, uh, reaction, like what was the reaction to writing the CNN piece? Like I saw a lot of support online, but did it, did it blow back on you as well? No, the, the negative, um, responses were few and far between, you know, there were some people like, why are you bringing up the race issue, pulling the race card? It's like, I'm just trying to engage someone's idea. But it was interesting because, um, you know, once again, when you look at, I was kind of very intentionally retweeting any kind of responses to it. And it was a very diverse group of people. It wasn't just like, oh, the angry African-Americans about this.

There are a lot of like white people, Latinos, South Asian folks who felt equally like this is a problematic project that these people have. And so I actually got a lot of requests to do additional press, like blogs, radio shows. And the only ones I agreed to do, you're going to be the guy you're like, so you can go on like a Riley factor and that's why I'm like, you know what? I had the face of a anti thug kitchen. All of it. Yeah. I don't want to be that. So I agreed to do Evan Kleinman's show, Good Food on WKCR. Or KCRW. KCRW. And your blog.

And then I agreed to do the CBC show, Q, with this guy. And then it just came out yesterday. Oh, he got fired. He got fired. We were supposed to do the interview with Zed. He just got canned. Yeah, there's a lot of mystery over what that guy was doing, but it doesn't sound good. It doesn't sound good for him. But how did the CNN piece

come together? Like, how did that happen? You know, Kat Kinsman, who is the, who was the editor for the Eatocracy, kind of food centered CNN blog, she had been wanting to do a piece with me. And, you know, I was just so busy touring and then on paternity leave with the baby and when um the whole the kitchen reveal happened and i was seeing so many people kind of like upset about it but then the voice is not really being heard i just felt like there needed to be something on record where if you can go and like do a search of it you'd at least see um somebody saying something. An essay on a major news outlet. Cause they were like a little, you know, things on smaller blogs.

But I was like, I want people to say, Oh, here's something I'm seeing in, and at least have that counter narrative so that, you know, the, the, the positivity and all the accolades and praise wouldn't drown out at least, you know, some dissent that people had. Right. I mean, I think it's, is it the only kind of piece that's taking this tack or have other people gone on to write similar? Well, funnily, Joe Yonan, the food editor for the Washington Post, just did a piece today. And he mentioned my essay and the essay of this other food scholar, Michael Twitty.

But then he didn't really like, he kind of broached people to say it and he did more of a focus on the recipe that he made it wasn't a full-on um review of the cookbook but basically the recipe he made um in so many words he said it was just it just was it was horrible so i'm like at least if you gotta do some digital blackface and you go like, you know, make fun of this stereotype of a certain culture, at least make sure your recipe is on point. Well, if you want the real soul food, they're going to have to go to your books, right? I would appreciate that. Yeah. I have a growing family.

All right. Well, we got to wrap it up here in a little bit, but I want to leave people with a couple ideas or things that they can think about to try to start making better decisions about where their food comes from, the food choices they're making. And what are some simple things that you could offer up to people that are looking to kind of take things to the next level? There's a website that I think is invaluable for identifying sources in your local community. You know, farmers markets, independent artisans, farmers who are growing good food, you know, food that's sustainable, that's grown with integrity. It's called localharvest.org. And you can actually put in your zip code and then it'll pull up all

these different resources in your local community. So I think that's a good place to start. So people feel like they have more options than, you know, just going to the supermarket or the Whole Foods and can actually put some money in the pockets of the people who are growing food and making interesting food products. The exciting thing about, it's like the publishing industry is on decline, but food related books and cookbooks are actually a growing market. And I feel like there are just so many brilliant books about these issues now. I mean, you know, whether we're talking about just like physical health and wellbeing and, and, and physical activity, like books like your book or people who are, you know, interested in more of the politics of food, like Dan Barber's The Third

Plate, or just like some really amazing cookbooks to give people ideas about making meals for their families. So, um, I would say just, you know, if you can't afford it, like libraries are stocking all these books and you can just start, start, get a book, start making some meals from scratch and just feed your family, feed, feed family, invite people over. podcast, but start with the visceral, move to the cerebral, end at the political. I mean, we do need to understand that these are very political issues. The farm bill will be coming up in another four years. And I think we need to start strategizing and meeting and thinking about what we can do as citizens to ensure that we're voting with our vote. We talk about engaging as a consumer and voting with our dollar, but we need to vote with our vote. So when the farm bill comes up, we need to make sure we're writing letters, we're sending emails, we're calling our elected officials and pushing them to create policies that are for the benefit of regular, everyday working people and not just the multinational food corporations. But then, you know, finally, I would say engaging the community groups, the organizations that we are part of, that we care about, our faith institutions, our fraternities, our sororities, our, you know, community-based organizations, and seeing what role they can play in creating a more healthy and just and sustainable food system, because it's such a systemic problem that I think any drop in the bucket that we can make towards kind of improving it or, you know, tipping it in the right direction makes a difference. And so, um, that's up to us.

That's, we're the members of these organizations and we need to, um, let our voices be heard and let these folks know that we want to do something,'s going to benefit a healthier earth and healthier generations. That's beautifully stated. Thank you. Thanks a lot, man. If people want to learn more about how to start their own home garden, are there any websites that you think are helpful that could provide a little guidance? Cause I think what happens is people like the idea of it, but the practical sort of doing of it can be overwhelming.

You know, like, well, I don't even know where to start. So they never set aside the time. Yeah. You know, I know that there are master gardeners in communities across the country where you can just like. And I mean, so there are people who are like certified master gardeners. But this is my whole thing around like tapping into the ancestral knowledge or the knowledge of our elders. There are people who are in our communities who have been farmers, who have been connected with the land, who know how to grow food, you know. And a lot of times these are older folks that we just need to ask, you know, can you help me think about these issues?

need to ask, you know, can you help me think about these issues? I mean, same thing for cooking, same thing for canning, pickling, preserving, same thing for, you know, organizing and just getting people engaged on a kind of civic level. And so I'm big, I'm really a big proponent of talking to the elders and getting some of that knowledge and not feeling like we need to reinvent the wheel or do it on our own. And, um, yeah, seek these people out. They're there. All right, man. Thank you. Thank you for having me. All right. So if you're digging on Bryant, uh, check out his books. He's got four vegan soul kitchen, inspired vegan grub, and his newest one is Afro vegan, right? That's the one you want people to check out first, probably. Right. Oh, yeah. And if you want to learn more about him online, the website is bryanterry.com.

Bryant- Bryant-Terry. B-R-Y-A-N-T. T. There's a T in there. Don't forget the T. Dash T-E-R-R-Y.com. And then you're on Twitter and Instagram at Bryant Terry. Yeah.

No hyphen. No hyphen. Just Bryant Terry on Twitter, on Instagram. And you can find me on Facebook as well. And yeah, you know, just connect. I love people. So reach out to my man. All right, cool.

Well, thanks so much for your time, man. You're an inspiration. And I look forward to seeing where you take all this stuff. It's inspiring me to do and be better, man. Appreciate it. Thank you. Thank you. Peace. Peace. Plants. epic podcast chat, I realized that I completely spaced on the fact that when we kicked it off, I said, I was going to have you do the KRS one wrap at the end of the show. So

then I had the brilliant idea that I was going to call you and make you do it over Skype. So that's what we're doing. What do you think? All right. Are you, are you game for it? I love that idea. I'm a little rusty on the lyrics but you know i'll do my best hey man it's all good i just want to hear a little bit of it cool uh just let me know when you're ready i'm ready all right it goes a little something like this beef what a relief when will this poisonous product cease? This is another public service announcement. You can believe it or you can doubt it. Let us begin now with the cow, the way that it gets to your plate and how. The cow doesn't grow fast enough for man, so through his greed,

he creates a faster plan. He has drugs to make the cow grow quicker. Through the stress, the cow gets sicker. 21 different drugs are pumped into the cow in one big lump. So just before it dies, it cries in the slaughterhouse full of germs and flies. Off with the head. They pack it, drain it, and cart it. And there it is in your local supermarket. Red and bloody. A corpse neatly packed. And you wonder about in your local supermarket, red and bloody, a corpse neatly

packed. And you wonder about heart attacks? Come on, man. Now let's be for real. You are what you eat. That's the way I feel. And I'll leave it at that. KRS-One's got nothing on you, man. That was awesome. Yeah. I mean, just imagine hearing this as a 10th grader and having a pretty diverse and what one could argue a generally healthful omnivorous diet, but just not really understanding the impact that our choices as humans have on animals and the way in which that affects the environment, the way in which that affects human health, the way in which that affects the animals themselves. And so that was a game changer for me. Okay, everyone, I hope you enjoyed that. Personally, I think we'd all be a lot better off with more guys like Bryant doing the real work required to forge true sustainable change for the

betterment of our communities. Don't forget to check out Bryant's books. I'll put links up in the show notes for this episode, of course. And don't forget to use the Amazon banner ad at richroll.com to make those purchases. Please, if you haven't already, give us a review on iTunes. It only takes like two seconds, you guys. Hook me up. This helps us out a lot. If you're in LA, stop by our new restaurant, Joy Cafe, Fueling Awesome, as is the cafe's tagline. It's right in the heart of Westlake Village off Agora Road in the 101 in the West Valley section of Los Angeles. You can find me there at lunch probably about three or four times a week. So, come on by, say hi, get some education, have some great conversation, enjoy delicious food and leave feeling great. If you want to stay current with all things plant

powered, subscribe to my newsletter at richroll.com. Again, you get a seven recipe download for free if you do so. And it's the only way to get exclusive content, to find out about deals, sales, discounts on our products, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. And again, go to richroll.com for all your plant power needs and go to mindbodygreen.com to check out my online courses. iTunes only lists the most 50, the most recent 50 episodes of my podcast,

which means there's 62 episodes of this show that are not available on that platform. And that's the platform that I know most people are accessing this show. If you want to access the entire catalog, the only way to do that other than kind of searching my website, which is a bit of a pain, is to get the iOS app in the iTunes app store. It's totally free. It's the only way to easily access every single episode of the RRP, the RRP of, and give us a review. I'm really proud of the app. It has all the show notes in it. It has the sort of banner artwork that goes along with each episode. So you can get a picture, a face to go along with

the voice in your ear. And there's a banner ad at richroll.com to click on to find it. Or if you just go to the iTunes, just go to iTunes and in the search window on the upper right-hand corner, just type my name in and you'll find the app there. All right, let's close it down with this week's assignment. Brian is a chef by trade. That's what he loves to do, but he uses what he loves to do to do good for others. So this week, I want you guys to think about what it is that you love and how you can leverage that passion for the benefit of others. How are your personal gifts relevant to service? What unique things can you offer to improve your community? Make a list. Identify one thing and then start creating a plan to put it in motion.

I just, I can't overstate how much giving back, how much being of service will improve everything in your life, including your happiness quotient, most importantly, maybe, and the happiness quotient of those around you while also helping other people. It's an amazing thing. So I encourage all of you to explore that. All right, you guys, until next week, peace, plants, I'm out of here. Thank you.