The Rich Roll Podcast - On Why “Pain Don’t Hurt” and What It Takes to Overcome Extraordinary Obstacles

Episode Date: October 13, 2014

Life throws all of us obstacles. Everyone meets barriers. Nobody is immune from setbacks. It’s how we confront and navigate past the curve balls life throws that moulds character and ultimately defines who we really are. Do you crumble or rise to the challenge? Do you shrink down and become the victim? Or do you stand tall and walk through adversity like a warrior? And what do you do if everything just goes to shit? You are hard pressed to find a man who has met so much adversity with such a grounded sense of purpose and honest willingness to share about it as Mark Miller. Meet Fightshark. Just make sure you check your grousing at the door. Born with both Type-1 Diabetes and a congenital heart defect (CHD), Mark was reared by the back hand of an alcoholic abusive father. A World War II vet and notable professional athlete who played in the very fist NBA game ever, “Moose” Miller was a domineering force of nature who experienced the world as a dark, unfair and often violent place – and made sure he prepared his son accordingly. To escape the emotional and physical violence that greeted him at home, Mark immersed himself in the world of sports at a very young age. Thrown into a boxing gym at age 6, he quickly adapted, eventually mastering every sport imaginable by the time he finished high school. During his free time he worked in the Pittsburgh Steelers locker room (from age six through high school), grabbing towels, taking grief and learning about sport and life from the hand of legends like Lynn Swann, Mel Blount, Jack Ham and Mean Joe Greene while also working on his pitching with guys like Barry Bonds. All champions that in some sense served surrogate dad duty for this evolving teen. By the time he was 18, Mark was poised to go professional as a major league pitcher. But Mark had other plans – he wanted to become a professional kickboxer. By 2007, Mark was a rising star in this emerging sport until a routine physical uncovered a serious cardiac condition that required open-heart surgery to replace his aortic valve. The crisis helped to temporarily reunite his fractured family. But everybody thought Mark's fighting days were over. Once again, Mark had other plans — the surgery just made him more determined than ever to return to the kickboxing ring. Astounded by the rapid rate at which Mark's heart healed, his doctors gave him the green light to resume training. Everything in Mark's life seemed to be getting back on track. But 2008 had little respect for Mark's plans. Over the course of that year, Mark lost both his parents and his drug addict brother to an overdose. A confluence of events that led Mark to lose himself in drugs and alcohol, culminating in a boozy accident that hurled his already fractured and fragile body through a car windshield and onto hard unforgiving Austin, Texas pavement. Eventually, Mark found the wherewithal to get and stay sober. Renewed, he set his sights once again on his kickboxing comeback. Despite being labeled damaged goods, in 2011 Mark returned to the ring in Moscow and shocked the fight world when he took out one of the world’s best with a knockout in just 8 seconds. To this day, Fightshark is the first and only combat sport athlete to return to competition after undergoing open heart surgery. Fast forward to 2013. Just prior to his fight debut in storied Madison Square Garden, Mark contracted pneumonia, which set in motion a devastating domino effect of health cataclysms that have left him with chronic kidney failure, blindness in one eye, and the need for not one but three organ transplants: heart, pancreas and kidney. Mark is currently fighting for his life. Literally.

Welcome to the Rich World Podcast, episode 108 with Mark Fight Shark Miller. Sponsor yourself, people. Today's show is brought to you by the Plant Power Evolution Revolution. We all want to be healthier, fitter, leaner, stronger, more focused, more self-aware, more grounded, more confident, but what to eat, when and why, how to meditate, why should I meditate? And maybe most importantly, how do we become more connected with our higher, highest self? And then how do we put all of that to work to properly set and achieve goals and optimize this connection between

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All right, you guys, are you ready to rock? My name is Rich Roll. I'm your host. Welcome to my podcast, to the RRP. Thank you for listening. Thank you for spreading the word with your friends. Thank you for Instagramming all the cool ways and places where you enjoy the show. And thank you for supporting the show by clicking through the Amazon banner ad at richroll.com for your Amazon purchases.

As you know, this really helps us out. It doesn't cost you guys anything, but it really helps us out. So thank you so much to everybody who has and continues to support us and this mission in this way. I have the distinct pleasure and honor of sitting down and picking the brains with some of the best, brightest, paradigm-busting minds in health, wellness, diet, nutrition, fitness, creativity, even conscious capitalism, world-class athletes, doctors, nutritionists, entrepreneurs, artists, and even the occasional triumphant everyman. But the common theme is this. But the common theme is this. All my guests are here to share their experience and their insights solely to help you discover, uncover, unlock, and unleash your best, most authentic self. Life throws all of us obstacles. There's just no way around it.

Barriers, setbacks, we all have them. And it's what we do in the face of these that truly molds our character and defines who we really are. When we get thrown a curveball, do we crumple or do we rise to the challenge? And when things go to crap, do we become the victim or do we rise up and step into the shoes of the warrior? But what happens when it just all goes bad? But what happens when it just all goes bad? Well, I've never met anyone who has faced so much adversity and come out the other side to share about it with such a positive and grounded sense of purpose as Mark Miller, today's guest, otherwise known as Fight Shark. You think you've had it bad? You think you've had some setbacks?

Consider this and check your grousing at the door for good. It's pretty hard to encapsulate the life of this guy, and I can only capture certain aspects of it in our conversation. So indulge me and let me try to set the stage. Mark is a guy who was born with both type 1 diabetes and a congenital heart defect, CHD. He's a guy who grew up under the wing of a physically and emotionally abusive, unreasonably demanding alcoholic father and a passive codependent mother. It was a dad that saw and experienced the world as a really dark, unfair, and often violent place. And it was his dad's mission to really make sure that he prepared his son accordingly, in accordance with this worldview. And it was a painful childhood to be sure,

but to escape his circumstances, Mark, from a very early age, as far back as he could remember, aspired to athletic greatness. He spent his youth in a boxing gym. I think he was thrown into a boxing gym by his dad at age six. And Mark went on to play every sport imaginable. During his free time, he even worked in the Pittsburgh Steelers locker room, a place where he started working again at age six, I believe, all the way through high school, grabbing towels and taking grief from football legends like Lin Swan, Mel Blunt, Jack Hamm, Mean Joe Green. This was the heyday of the Pittsburgh Steelers. And also, he had the opportunity to connect with a bunch of pro baseball players and spent free

time working on his pitching with guys like Barry Bonds. I mean, it's amazing the level of athlete that this guy was exposed to at a very young age. All champions that, in some sense, you could say became surrogate dads for this evolving teen. And Mark, indeed, became an outstanding high school athlete. In fact, he was poised to become a pro baseball player, a pitcher. But Mark had other plans. He wanted to become a professional had other plans. He wanted to become a professional kickboxer. So kind of a departure, not the biggest sport in the United States, but he fell in love with it. And that was his life path. And he had some success. But in 2006, his CHD, his congenital heart defect, finally really caught up with him. His heart essentially went bad, and it was only outputting at about 15%, which required him to have open heart surgery. He had a new aortic valve put in in 2007.

He mended, he healed, and he set his sights on making a comeback in the ring. And everything started to seem like it was getting back on track. But in 2008, this year had other plans for Mark. Over the course of that year, he lost both of his parents as well as his drug addict brother to an overdose. Then he went flying through a windshield in a car accident. It was a confluence events that led Mark to really lose himself in booze and drugs. Eventually, he gets a grip. He finds a wherewithal to get and stay sober and launches his comeback. Despite being labeled damaged goods in 2011, Mark nonetheless returned to the ring in Moscow. And I don't think anybody thought that he was going to be able to be victorious against a competitor who was at least perceived at the time to be far superior to

what Mark was bringing into the ring. But Mark took him out in just eight seconds, knockout. And to this day, he is the first and only combat sport athlete to return to the ring, to return to competition after open heart surgery, which in and of itself is an astounding thing. But let's fast forward to 2013. Just prior to his biggest fight of his life, which was going to take place in Madison Square Garden, Mark suddenly contracted pneumonia. And this set in motion a domino effect of health cataclysms that included renal failure, chronic kidney failure, and now the need for three organ transplants. Right now, he needs a new heart, he needs a new pancreas, and he needs a new kidney. Imagine that, not just one organ failing,

but three. And this is a path that has him fighting for his life on a daily basis and grounded in the only thing there is, the grace of the present, the only moment we have. Mark chronicles the insanity of his life and his adventures and is truly compelling, completely raw, and at times sad, but totally engrossing and unapologetic new book called Pain Don't Hurt, which is published by Anthony Bourdain under his new imprint at Harper's called Echo. It's pretty cool. Anthony Bourdain found out about Mark and his story. He became riveted by, you know, who this guy is, and he decided that he wanted to help Mark turn it into a book. And so here we are. So even if you don't care at all for kickboxing or MMA or UFC, you will be hard pressed not to be riveted by Mark's astounding tale

of superhuman resiliency and what it truly takes to meet and weather adversity in its grandest scale. All told, I'd say Mark is a complete inspiration and he's a testimony to the incredible power of the human spirit to meet and overcome even the most impossible odds and obstacles. So let's quit your whining and let's step into the ring with the one and only Fight Shark. We're brought to you today by recovery.com. I've been in recovery for a long time. It's not hyperbolic to say that I owe everything good in my life to sobriety. And it all began with treatment and experience that I had that quite literally saved my life.

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Search by insurance coverage, location, treatment type, you name it. Plus, you can read reviews from former patients to help you decide. Whether you're a busy exec, a parent of a struggling teen, or battling addiction yourself, I feel you. I empathize with you. I really do. And they have treatment options for you. Life in recovery is wonderful, and recovery.com is your partner in starting that journey. When you or a loved one need help, go to recovery.com and take the first step towards recovery. To find the best treatment option for you or a loved one, again, go to recovery.com. First of all, your book is extraordinary.

Thank you for writing it. It was quite an intense read and just trying to wrap my brain around all the sort of medical issues that you have to confront on a daily basis. I mean, you walk me through a typical day in your life right now. What does that look like? Well, that part, like currently we'll have to wait for the sequel because this all started literally like a week after everything was done with the book when we crossed all the T's and dotted all the I's and, you know, and the publishers had signed off on everything. Then I,

then I ended up getting sick, which was last, uh, November. And right now, you know, on Monday, Wednesday, Friday, I get up at 345 and I go to dialysis for four hours. So, you know, that's always good times getting all the blood taken out of your body to do the work kidneys can no longer do. Right. And it gives you an opportunity to tweet out your playlist. You're listening to a playlist while you're doing that. Yes, so I try to at least do something to keep it out there. Because especially as an athlete and now an author, you're only as good as your last movie, like they say, right down the road in Hollywood.

And I remember when I had the heart surgery in 2007, obviously I wasn't fighting, so to stay relevant, I was doing radio shows about fighting people would keep me on. And that was also the advent of social networks. So that was a good thing. It keeps your name out there. I mean, to be honest, Twitter's kind of the reason

I got asked to write the book because of the fact that Ottavia Bourdain, Anthony Bourdain's wife, followed me on Twitter. She's a huge fight fanatic. Huge fight fanatic. She trains at Henzo Gracie's fanatic. And, you know, she trains, uh,

at Henzo Gracie's in Manhattan. And that's the reason that, you know, the Anthony came to me about writing the book was because his wife had, you know, shown him the, the blogs I was writing when I was coming back to, I had my comeback fight in 2011. So I understand the worth. I mean. The power is amazing. You know, I owe a lot of, you know, what I've been able to do, you know, over the last couple of years to Twitter as well. And it's been an incredibly powerful medium for connecting with people.

And that's not really our age group, let's be honest. Yeah. To us, it's like, wow, you know. Right, right, right. To me, it's crazy i you know we were grown adults before there was an internet uh-huh yes we're old fully formed you know the thing is it is it's it's a great it's it's a great thing it's a really cool story too because you were prepping for your comeback fight and so she's following you and i think people were

sending you video messages or something like that of support. And Anthony's like, what's going on here? And then he starts looking into who you are and he's directed to your blog. And he's like, wow, this guy can write actually, like a fighter can actually write who is very descriptive and compelling in sort of laying out these narratives about what it's like to do what you do. And then here you are, like publishing a book under his new imprint with Harper Collins. I mean, and sort of laying out these narratives about what it's like to do what you do. And then here you are, like, publishing a book under his new imprint with HarperCollins. I mean, that's exciting stuff, man.

Yeah, I mean, it's not something you expect to happen. Because I get people now all the time, well, how do you do this? I want to get published. And I'm like, truth is, it's not that easy. And this fell into my lap. This is a one in a million thing. Usually they don't come to you and say, how about you write a book? I got unbelievably lucky and fortunate to be able to do this. So that's why I figured if I'm going to write it, I wanted to make it as raw as possible.

Not exploitive, but just true to what my life story and how things are when it comes to actual training. Just give a little bit of insight into it. Yeah, and you've accomplished that in spades. I mean, it's very gripping. And we were talking about this right before I hit record on the podcast. I told you you were going to have to repeat it. Because, you know, I mean, your story in certain respects couldn't be more different than mine. But I was able to emotionally connect with it because of the humanity of it and sort of how you so eloquently describe how you approached all of these obstacles that you had to face over your life.

And what it does is it allows you as the reader to connect, like to get inside your head and to feel the emotions that you're feeling. And, you know, like yourself, I'm not a world champion at what I do. I'm not even a professional athlete. And when I was writing my book, I'm like, who's going to, you know, why does anyone want to read this? They can go get, they can go pull any book off the shelf of some, you know, world champion athlete and read the story of, you know, what that life would be like. The only reason to write it would be or the value of it would be directly proportionate to the extent to which I was willing to be honest and raw and vulnerable and talk about ugly stuff and all that kind of thing. And, you know, from page one, that's just screaming, you know, in your book. Yeah, we tried to, you know, I'll make a bad fight analogy here to to gut punch you right off the bat. And the way I wanted it to...

I wanted it to be kind of conversational. Like we're sitting here like we are right now, just having a back and forth. And just, you know, it's kind of the book is my part of that conversation. So it leads to try to, you know, I enjoy cinematic writing. So that's what we, you know, that's what I wanted to accomplish was try to have it like flow cinematically so you could picture everything you're seeing. Right.

And in a screenplay, they call the first 10 pages. In the first 10 pages, you have to have the inciting incident. Something dramatic has to happen. And I can't imagine anything more dramatic than the way you open your book because it involves a helicopter crash on the grounds of a church when you're a young child and people are dying. And it allows you not only to sort of shock the reader with this incredibly sort of know, sort of moving disaster, but it also introduces your parents and the way that they kind of react to this shows who these people are. Like immediately you're like, I know who that guy is.

I know who that woman is. And that sets the stage for, you know, the household in which you're, you grew up in. Exactly. So let's go back there a little bit. Like, tell me a little bit about what it was like being a kid in Pittsburgh growing up in your house. I'm going to say this and I don't necessarily, cause I think people get the wrong idea. I don't necessarily mean this in a bad way, but it was, you know, kind of lonely, you know, but not because there's a lack of human contact, but just, you know.

The big thing I try to get across doing interviews and talking about my parents is this wasn't meant to, you know, to damn them. The intent wasn't, you know, what, you know, crappy parents I had, you know, woe is me. The idea was just to give an idea of what, you know, I dealt with and how particular circumstances create, you know, who you become. chances create, you know, who you become. And, you know, whether it sounds like an excuse, whatever, my parents came from a different era. I mean, they had me at a very, you know, very old age. And they were both, you know, just kind of closed off people. So there wasn't, you know, there was my father over here, my mother over there.

Their interaction was, you know, minimal. So obviously interaction with me, you know, it was kind of like I was the go-between. It's like in Fight Club. Right. You know, Edward Norton's character is going back and forth. Between these two personalities. Between these two personalities and between,, obviously, the girl he's dating but doesn't realize and his fictional character he's created in his head. So there was a lot up and down.

My father spent most of his time in the basement. My mother was upstairs. It was just like a back and forth thing. And there was never really any bonding between me and either of them. But as a family union, what people consider a family union, yeah, there was no – there just wasn't that kind of interaction. My father, however, was a pretty harsh disciplinarian and had his ideas. You know, he was a former professional athlete and decided that's where he wanted me to go. So, right. So the book opens with this helicopter crash. I should clarify,

you weren't in the helicopter. The helicopter crash crashes in front of you. Right. And the takeaway from that is sort of what I got out of it or, you know, what I'm intuiting was sort of your interpretation as a young person at that time is and what kind of the theme of the book is or how you're parented is this idea that the world is a very harsh place and shit happens, bad shit happens. That was my father's view. And that was his view. happens. Bad shit happens. That was my father's view. And that was his view. And, you know, whether you want to say it or not, he, you know, he was, he was a pretty abusive guy. He sounds like he was an alcoholic. Your mom, you know, sounds, I don't know if she was an alcoholic, but she was a drinker too. But it seems like there was a bit of a codependent relationship there. Oh yeah. And she was emotionally handicapped. Um, but also more forthcoming with you. Like she was a caregiver to you.

But your father had this worldview that was in alignment with this helicopter crash. Like, you know, the world is tough and I need to prepare you for the world. And you've got to be tough. And whether you like it or not, I'm going to make you tough. And that was his way of, you know, being a father, I suppose. Right. He, I like to explain it that, uh, give it a little pop culture reference. His parroting ideology was basically a boy named Sue. You know, if you know that song, obviously the famous Johnny Cash song, you know, he figured that if he made things really tough, that you'd be able to handle the world. Okay, I name you sooth and you're going to have to deal with a lot of crap.

So, you know, it'll make you inherently tough because the world sucks. And that's what his ideology was. And as a result of that, you have a lot of emotional and physical scarring because it was a painful way to grow up as a kid. Yeah. And there's a lot of damage there. But at the same time, you've weathered a shit storm. You've gone through more in your life than most people could fathom. And so there is an argument that he did prepare you for that. And looking back, it's sort of like, well, how would you have met all of these obstacles in your life, which we're going to get into for people that are listening who don't know what they are yet, had you been prepared differently or had you had a normal or a more loving or a more emotionally available father?

That's an absolute truth. I mean, obviously, as a child, no, I didn't want to have that. I probably would have traded to something different. But in hindsight and in extended view, if I hadn't had that,

how would I deal with all the stuff that happened? So you wouldn't have been able to, you wouldn't have, maybe you would have never become a fighter. I mean, you can't even begin to answer that question, of course, but it would have looked pretty different, I think. Absolutely. There is no doubt about it.

Not one. But it is very cinematic. I mean, I can picture it, you know, very succinctly in my mind how the way you've described it. And so your dad is, he's this incredible athlete. He played in the first NBA game in history, right? Like 1946. Yes. So it was a weird story. Like it was just the formation of the NBA and the, how did that happen? What happened with that was the NBA season was supposed to start on in 1946. And it did. But the note to that is because he played

for the Toronto Huskies, which were the original NBA teams, and they were playing the New York Knicks. And the Knicks were playing in Toronto. Well, on November 2nd, the Toronto Maple Leafs were playing in the Gardens. Now, I don't really have to explain to anybody who understands hockey

that you're not – in Canada, you're not overriding hockey. So what they did is they said, well, we have a game scheduled, so you're going to have to play November 1st, the Friday night before. So that's how that ended up being the first NBA game. Oh, the very first game. Because it played on the day before the schedule actually started because of the schedule interference in Toronto uh interference in uh toronto gardens so that's that's how that happened there was some weird politics though right because his career

wasn't that long like it lasted a season or something and then played one year and then in 1947 got an offer from a rival league that was starting to jump leagues and play in atlanta and he made the jump and what happened was they offered these big contracts, which were better than the NBA ones. But by like the first few games, they had run out of money. So they folded and just disappeared into the night. And the commissioner at that time decided to blackball every player to try to

come back. Cause he, the league folded. He was signed by the Boston Celtics. That could have ended up being probably pretty historic. Yeah, that would have been something. What happened was he practiced for a few days, and then it came down from the commissioner that they were going to ban everybody

that had jumped leagues. Wow. And that's what happened. He got blackballed. So do you think, I mean, a little armchair psychology there that, you know, he had this unfulfilled dream that, you know, he wanted to see realized in you because he didn't get to play to his potential? Absolutely. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I can sit here and psychoanalyze him for days, knowing some of the stories, like knowing how his mother was knowing that, you know, he, he had got, you know, at the age of 18, got physically, you know, had an injury that was so bad in world war II that it affected

him the rest of his life. And I can understand the psychology of that. I mean, he had a lot of things that can cause certain people to become very bitter. So, you know, it wasn't just one thing he was dealing with. He had multiple ones. So, you know, I think a lot of that also led to him being extremely pissed off. And a lot of that's running downhill. But as you know, you're when you're like six years old, he's starting to try to teach you how to fight. And I think that's about how old you were when you took it to the gym.

I was five when he really started, you know, the, the, the basement training that we used to do. And then, yeah, it was, uh, six, you know, his ideas. Once again, I'm going to take you to the all black part of town into the boxing gym and leave you there. Or I'm going to take you to the, you know, the basketball courts and the playgrounds and leave you there. Or I'm going to take you to the basketball courts and the playgrounds and leave you there. That's going to make you tough because, hey, let's do the math.

You're the only white guy. And, you know, not that anybody was particularly bad to me, but when you're the white boy, yeah, hey, they're going to do what they do. I understand that's a policy. You're kind of a skinny, tall kid too right absolutely absolutely so and but but but honestly when you get dropped off at that gym there's a part of you that you know the the light switch goes on yeah right like you were you were you were kind of home kind of you start bonding with these old guys and and you start showing up more and more and you really take to it. Absolutely.

I mean, you know, it was just kind of, it was an epiphany. I mean, if you could have an epiphany at that age, but, you know, I did. It just felt right. You know this. I mean, there's certain things in your life that they just fit. It's like, you know, it's your piece of the puzzle connecting. It goes together. Yeah. It's not a logic thing at all. It just happens. So you like you're a piece of the puzzle connecting with another piece. It goes together. Yeah, it's not a logic thing at all.

It just happens. No, absolutely. So you start going to the gym. And, I mean, you start flourishing into quite the athlete. I mean, you're playing every sport. You're excelling mostly at baseball, right, as a young kid. Baseball and basketball were the two biggest. Baseball and basketball.

But you're still going to the gym. You're learning boxing. You start getting interested in kickboxing somewhere along the line. And you're spending your free time in the Steelers locker room, right? Yes. I mean, I want to talk about that a little bit, but really kind of what I'm thinking is you have your dad at home who's this incredibly powerful personality over your life, but you have all these surrogate dads, all these older men in your life, all these amazing athletes and trainers of all different kinds of personalities who are kind of these mentors to a kid who is really young. I mean, when you were in the Steelers locker room pulling towels, you were, what, seven or something when you started? I started that like when I was six through when I was 17, 18 years old, because then I worked with them after I graduated from high school.

I worked for them full time and I didn't go to college right out of high school because of that. So, yeah. But, you know, when I was at the young age, that was the era of, you know, the teams that won four Super Bowls. Those were the great teams. Yeah. It was them and the Redskins, I remember at the time. But the Steelers, yeah, I mean, that was the heyday. So that must have been super exciting.

In hindsight, yes and no. I mean, I didn't really have any idea that it was, you know, when you're a kid, it just, it is what it is. I didn't see anything special. But yes, it was fun. And that group of guys, there are all these legendary football players, like how many hall of famers obviously were on that team and how great that those teams were, but they were just great guys.

There were so many great, just great human beings. I've had the pleasure of being in Pittsburgh on a home game day and that's something else. You know what I mean? Like there's nothing else going on in town when that's happening so you better not talk about anything else yeah right exactly and for you to be the you know right there with it as a young kid i mean i can't imagine the

impression that that made on you with these world-class athletes it was just it it was amazing because the noise in the old three river stadium, the noise that would resonate, it was just unbelievable. I mean, I've been fortunate to be at some pretty crazy sporting events and obviously to fight overseas in some massive events. But that and just the fact that everybody would come together, like you said, obviously there's only 60,000 people in the stadium. Obviously there's a lot more people in the city, but it was like the whole city would come together. Right. And you don't see that.

I mean, yeah, sports fans in every city love their team. But the way that everybody mulls together in Pittsburgh on game day, like I said, you've been there, so you realize it's a pretty amazing experience. It's for real. And spending all that time around those athletes, you we're talking about guys like lynn swan i mean what what is what did you observe and what did you take away uh from just watching them that informed your approach to excelling as an athlete like what what were some of the habits that you witnessed or weirdly enough i mean, you know, my father's ideology, you know, coming into play as well, was just a work ethic. I mean, I think that's what instilled my crazy work ethic and my training ideology from a young age.

And a lot of those guys, you know, because I was interested, would let me work out with them. I'm a kid, and I think I'm doing awesome. There's a thing called 350s, where they run around the entire field. And you time it, and you try to get faster in each one. And Jack Hamm, the famous Hall of Fame linebacker, was just ridiculous at him. His conditioning was unbelievable. And I saw that as a great thing. And he used to let me run with him.

Wow. I mean, he would kill me. But at the same time, being at that age to work with such a level of – or excuse me, an athlete of that level was just, was unbelievable experience. And it just led to my work ethic because I wanted to be like those guys, you know, and I think that's what gave me such a, you know, the foray into strength and conditioning at a young age before, you know, strength and conditioning now is much different than it was 10 years ago, 15 years ago. And that, that was 30 plus years ago. Right, right. But it gave me that idea that in order to be the best athlete you can in your sport,

you have to be conditioned and strong outside of it. Doing your sport won't make you stronger, won't make you faster. But there are other things you can do in order to achieve that. So that's what it instilled in me. And you're a kid who, I mean, from the very get-go, you wanted to be a professional athlete. I mean, in the book, it sounds like it's one of your earliest memories or aspirations, right? The fact that I was around it so much, I spent my entire childhood, obviously in the Steelers locker room, but being at the stadium all the time in the summer as well, I'd be around the Pirates constantly,

you know, and my godfather, who was the equip manager for the Steelers, was a professional hockey player. And then obviously my father was a professional athlete. So to me, I was like, that's the coolest thing ever. You know, I would take batting lessons with, you know, not that this name is going to mean anything to people now, but like Billy Williams, who was the hitting instructor for the Cubs in the 80s, was a Hall of Famer, had 426 home runs in his career.

And these were the guys that I used to take batting lessons from, play catch with Barry Bonds, play catch with Andre Dawson. That's crazy. That was just my childhood. Yeah, that's crazy. You know, and I'd see those guys performing, and like Andre Dawson wins a triple crown in 1987, and, you know, I'm playing catch with them that summer.

So to me it's like that's what I want to do. I see what these guys are doing. How old are you? Is this in high school or even younger? Right before I was 16. Like 1980, summer of 87 was I turned 16 that September. So I was 15 years old and just finished up my baseball season. And now I'm getting tips from Hall of Famers and playing catch with Hall of Famers.

Right. And one thing we haven't even gotten into yet is really the health conditions that you were born into, right? So out of the gate, type one diabetes. How old were you when you were diagnosed with that? Nine years old. At nine. And then I was also born with CHD. Right. Congenital heart defect. Defect, right. So explain what that means exactly. General heart defect means you're born with – there's a whole list of different things it can be.

But what mine was – excuse me – was I was born with an aortic valve that never formed correctly. So from my you know youngsters they were able to diagnose it and knew that i had it so i mean i can't say because in those days because doctors still do the same thing now because i deal with families every day that that have children with chd and doctors do a lot of CYA on that. Don't do anything that can compromise you. Don't work out. My father was crazy,

and that was one of the things where his craziness was good because he's like, you do whatever. We're not going to listen to them. We're not going to let that hold you back, which you could say maybe that was bad parenting because he's sticking the middle finger up to doctors. But it's hard to argue with what I accomplished as an athlete. Right.

So I'm thankful that he did do that and that he did let me just go and do whatever I had to do. Yeah, and so when you're a kid and you're going to the gym and you're learning about boxing and baseball practice and playing basketball, I mean, is this in the back of your mind all the time? Like I'm, I'm, you know, I'm, I have this thing that other kids are, it's just not, you're not even thinking about it. Never entered in my mind, you know, fortunately, unfortunately, whatever my mindset, the way that I, I am, it just, it's like, okay, what do I have? Okay. What do I have to do? Even from a young age, okay. So I do it. If somebody tells me I have to get up at 6 o'clock in the morning and take this pill to maintain health, okay.

So I do it. Right. You don't think about it. You don't dwell on it. Never did. And that was the freedom that my father did give me, with all the bad, there's always good. And he did give me the freedom to just, hey, do whatever this, this doesn't, this doesn't control you. And to challenge authority, challenge conventional wisdom, and to not be afraid of,

you know, somebody telling you, you can't or you shouldn't. Right. Right. Instead, it's the opposite, actually. Someone tells you you shouldn't or you can't. That's going to just motivate you to go the other way. I think I actually – I'm going to see if – I saw a quote yesterday that I thought was really fitting. Yeah.

Speak boldly and with intellect. Never hush your voice for someone's comfort. Speak your mind. Make people uncomfortable. That's actually, you know, I think I think a good one. And then Muhammad Ali. I found this one yesterday as well. Impossible is not a fact. It's an opinion.

Impossible is not a declaration. It's an opinion. Impossible is not a declaration. It's a dare. Impossible is potential. Impossible is temporary. Impossible is nothing. And I've kind of lived my life that way. Yeah, I like that. I hear impossible is nothing all the time, but I don't know that I heard the whole quote.

Yeah, that's the whole quote. Like I've heard that, the impossible is nothing, but that's the original quote. And I was like, it's amazing, you know, to come across something that quotes probably, let's think as long as he's been around 40, 50 years old. And, you know, I'm 43 years old and that was the first time I heard it. That makes me happy to find stuff like that. It's awesome. Yeah. That's going to go in the next book.

Right? Absolutely. All right. to find stuff like that. It's awesome. Yeah. That's going to go in the next book, right? Absolutely. All right. So by the time you're a senior in high school, you've become this pretty prominent baseball player, right? And the prospect of going professional is very real at that time, right? And meanwhile, you're falling in love with fighting. And so you have this decision to make, are you going to pursue baseball or are you going to pursue fighting? And it's pretty interesting how you decide to navigate that. Well, I end up getting a scholarship to play basketball. You know, I do it my freshman year, but I just get more and more, you know, enamored with fighting. Plus, I also had an injury when, you know, after my, well, during my freshman year.

And the fact that I played consistently, like nonstop, you know, playing in the winter, playing spring, playing summer. Kind of burnt me out a little bit. And I think as my sophomore year started and I started playing fall ball again, which meant I was continuing the nonstop road, I think that it kind of helped make me make that decision. I'm also training in obviously still martial arts, but in kickboxing as well. And I think my love for that, wanting to pursue it more, the fact that it's becoming more and more real with being on TV, being on pay-per-view, you know, kickboxing,

sport of the 90s, which was what, which was what, you know, Joe Corley, who was the big promoter, always said. And then it's also said in Say Anything, you know, kickboxing, sport of the future. I was the real life Floyd Dobler. And I've told, I actually signed Cameron Crowe's book and wrote that in his book as I signed it. Oh, you did? That's pretty cool. So I was like, I'm the real life Lloyd Dauble. Yeah, yeah. It's kind of a running joke in your book, like, you know, because no one's ever heard of it.

And then Say Anything comes out and that becomes your anthem. Exactly. You're like, come on, major Hollywood movie. See? They know. So, yeah. But where does the spark for kickboxing first enter? I mean, you're going to the boxing gym, really.

This is not like there are kickboxing studios all over Pittsburgh. No, there are basically nowhere. There's hardly in the 80s that many martial arts gyms. Yeah. I mean, I used to do this. It's hard to imagine pre-MMA because it's so everywhere. It's a 30-mile round trip. Right.

But, you know, that's where you had to go. So what happens is, obviously,-mile round trip. Right. But, you know, that's where you had to go. So what happens is, obviously, I go to the boxing gym. So I'm learning boxing. I do martial arts, so I know martial arts. And I'm doing Korean styles as a youngster, which are very kick-heavy. Why do you think you chose that over karate or something like that? I did because that was the best sport in my area. Gotcha.

It was like there wasn't any real decision. Now people can pick and choose. And I went with that because that was the good school that was in my area. And it was a kick-heavy style, and I loved kicks. So then in the mid-'80s, ESPN used to have Tuesday night fights, which were kickboxing. They had the PKA, Professional Kickboxing Association, which isn't like kickboxing that I did. Obviously, it's the early era style where the kicks were above the waist. It was really point fighting, like point karate fighting with, you know, full contact. That's why it was called full contact.

And, you know, there were fights on wild world sports on Sunday afternoon. You know, so this was like, wow, I can actually see people doing what I do. And they're using kicks and they're using punches. I train both. And at that time, where were the great kickboxers was that in russia or japan or no it was basically an american sport at that time it was yeah like full contact karate which was what they called kickboxing was basically an american sport like you know you had rick rufus was a great fighter out of milwaukee then you had uh Smith out of, which they're all in the book because they all became my friends, weirdly enough.

You had, you know, Maurice Smith in Seattle. Out here you had Dennis Alexio. Don Wilson was in Florida. John Uterio. There was a lot of good Canadian fighters, like especially Montreal had a lot of great fighters. And then there were great kickboxers in France. Obviously, the Netherlands are the best countries in Europe. And those guys kind of adapted.

What they were doing was Muay Thai or real kickboxing, and they adapted to do that style. But out of the 80s, early 90s, mid-90s, then it evolved into what we really consider kickboxing by the late 90s. So that was a different era. But it was American, so they had to push Americans. Right. So you're getting burned out on baseball, even though you have these pro prospects.

You're having shoulder problems, right? You're a pitcher and you're burning out your arm. Yeah, absolutely. Because their idea was give them cortisone shots and you just keep throwing. So all it did was numb the pain. Yeah, it's not really solving anything. I wasn't healing anything. And I'm 18 years old, so they're like just power through.

And I did because you know my mindset obviously which if you read pain don't hurt shameless plug yeah you know that was my mindset it's like i'll just power through it i'll show them and that's what i did and i literally i don't think from the spring of my senior year in high school until the fall of my sophomore year, I never stopped throwing. Because literally, I went from spring ball to summer ball to fall ball, back to spring ball. I mean, it just never stopped. Who's throwing year round?

I mean, that's kind of crazy, right? Exactly. And that went nonstop for basically almost two years. And by that time, my arm was just shot. It was shot. But I mean, really, it seemed to me, and what I got out of the book, was your decision to move away from baseball had less to do with sort of just being generally burned out on the sport,

but really this idea of gravitating towards a more individual sport as opposed to a team sport, right? Me is the important one. This sort of self-reliance, you know, which is kind of a theme of the book and your story. And, you know, I find that interesting. I mean, obviously when you compete at the highest level in any discipline, it's a team effort no matter how individual the sport is.

You can't get there without, you know, the right kind of support people behind you. But there is a big difference between something like baseball and something like, you know, the right kind of support people behind you. But there is a big difference between something like baseball and something like, you know, being a fighter. And, you know, although I'm the furthest thing from a fighter, you know, my sports are individual too, and I relate to that. And I think there's something about individual sport being more attractive to somebody who is in, who's trying to work something out, like emotionally.

You know what I mean? Because you're only relying on yourself. It allows you to kind of isolate and work through your pain in a different kind of sort of self-exorcism. Yeah, because you don't have to rely on anybody. And this sport's all about you, everything. I mean, you have coaches, obviously. But, you know, they're not going in the ring with you, and there's nobody else to rely on. And, yeah, you're working a lot of shit out.

I mean, were you conscious of that at the time? Yes and no. I mean, there was some part of me that was grabbing onto that, but in those days I kind kind of tried to push. I was fulfilling my father's prophecy. I was trying to push any kind of emotion out of anything. Like, I just do. And I think it was more about just the challenge.

Athletes love challenges. And when it's just you and it's you mano a mano, yeah, that's quite the challenge. I mean, there's no other challenge in sports that's quite as daring, obviously, as I hit you, you hit me. Not that I'm putting, you know, that's not me putting the sport above any other sport, but it is different. Let's be honest. It's very different.

It's very different. And it's also extremely unusual that somebody who's specializing in baseball would move over to fighting, you know, which I think is a testament to your athletic ability because it's one thing if you're a boxer and you go into kickboxing. But to go from something so different, you know, that requires such a different sort of skill set on a certain level to fighting is a pretty big gap. A lot of that was ego, though. I'll be honest with you. I was one of those people that was so athletic. I was fortunately athletically gifted in that I could run fast, jump high, you know, do things like that. And that I wanted to excel in every sport. You know, if we were playing volleyball in the backyard, I things like that. And that I, um, I wanted to excel in every sport,

you know, if we were playing volleyball in the backyard, I wanted to, I was so competitive and just loved the idea of sports that I just wanted to be the best at everything. Right. When, you know, say I can do this and I can do this too. Exactly. Yeah. Right. Right. Right. It's one of those things you're, you're a teenager. Doesn't know any better. You think you do, but yeah. So you commit to this. Your dad's not happy about this, though.

His dreams of having a son play Major League Baseball taken off the table. Which is weird. You'd think he would like something tough guy. You'd think he would like something tough guy like that, but I think it was more— Well, kickboxing. I mean, if you said you were going to be a boxer, maybe that would have gone down easier. But it's not really that well-known of a sport, obviously. Right.

It's like, what is this? So, yeah. I mean, I think the thing he loved about baseball was, A, the longevity of the career, and B, yeah, it pays a shitload of money. Let's be honest. And you have the most longevity of any sport. It has obviously way longer than football or basketball. But part of your decision really also, and you're pretty explicit about this in the book, was this idea of saying F you to your dad. Because you knew that he was going to be the guy at the bar who's telling all his buddies about, you know, what you're doing on the field.

And you wanted to deny him that privilege. Yeah, absolutely. Because, you know, I was also coming to my own at that age. It's, you know, your self-actualization as a teenager. And I was starting to rebel. He was getting older as well. So, you know, there wasn't that kind of – he could still talk a lot but let's be honest how are you gonna you're not gonna catch me yeah you're not what are you gonna do you're not gonna

you're not gonna hand those beatdowns to me like you did when i was a kid and plus you know yeah i'm doing something where i'm the ass kicker and tables have turned and he used to still run his mouth like i'll do this and like okay right i'm like you know and that's And he used to still run his mouth like, I'll do this. And I'm like, okay. Right. I'm like, you know, and that's when I used to start. I got to the point where I started like, it would have been amazing to think of six-year-old me doing this. But I got to the point like, go for it. Bring your crowbar. And I told him one time, I remember for kids, he used to always give me the Susan Roebuck crowbar. I'm like, wow, okay.

I said, what's it going to look like when you have one of those sticking out of your ass? I know I told him. He got so livid with me. But it's like, what are you going to look like when you have one of those sticking out of your ass? I know I told him. He got so livid with me. But it's like, what are you going to do? You can't catch me. And I used to – I got to the point where, yeah, before we really stopped having communication at all, that happened in my 20s. Yeah, I sort of run out of my mouth. I absolutely did.

But I think – I kind of think it had to happen. Well, there had to be an incredible amount of pent-up anger and resentment that was eventually going to come out. Exactly. I think from an emotional standpoint, if I hadn't released it, you'd probably be talking to me from a cell as I, a serial killer doing who knows what dumb shit, because, you know, that, that, that was a definite possibility if, if I hadn't had the focus to do, you know, athletics. Right. Which brings up this, this idea of, you know, how fighters really, you know, work out their aggression in, in some ways in a healthy way, you know, work out their aggression in some ways in a healthy way. You know, like, there's this idea that's promoted by kind of MMA marketing, like the badass guy walking around

with the tap out shirt and, you know, scowling at everybody and somebody to be feared. And like, the fighters that I know are like the coolest dudes. Like, they're just grounded and mellow because they work it out in the gym or in the ring. And when you meet them out of that context, you wouldn't even know that they were fighters. And yeah, I hear that all the time. It's so different from that MMA, UFC kind of. But let's say UFC.

I'm going to put that out there. I'm going to take MMA out of it, which unfortunately, but that's the UFC marketing model. And they love going after the 18 to 34 market, which they've already cornered, but yet let's continue to market just to them. And it's very WWE in my opinion. I'm never going to get offered anything with the UFC, so I'm going to be brutally honest. You know, I mean, I've dealt with them.

I've dealt with a lot of, I know a lot of fighters that fight or have fought for them. And, you know, I don't think it helps us in the long run. It doesn't help the sport in the long run if you're going to market it as that. That's just in my heart. As that being what? As that being the thing that, that's the idea you want to give people, fighters. Fighters have a tough enough time

because they're fighters. There's always that like, oh, because you hit people for a living. But to market it as this savage thing and everybody's making these faces, you know, I'm scowling now since we're on radio. But it bothers me as a fighter with, you know, a shred of common sense. And I know it bothers most fighters because it's like, oh, come on, dude, really? You're going to market us like that? They market us like that.

And Chris Liebman, the ex-UFC fighter, had a great quote where he said that strippers and fighters, we're all working out something up on stage or in that cage or in that ring. And I – A lot of daddy issues. Exactly. I agree with that. But the way they try to market it as this like – this savage ass ass kicking thing come on like you said you've met fighters no fighters think like are there a couple yeah that's it's gonna happen in any any sport or any job there's always i think the higher you go up in level and accomplishment the less absolutely and i talk about that in the book yeah you know there's i've had people say that

like wow you know i remember taking the guy that i ran a gym with in the late 90s, early 2000s. I took him to a K-1 fight in Vegas with me. He meets all these legendary fighters from overseas. He's like, these guys are like the coolest guys in the world. Why don't they have any? They're not like, oh. I said, because what do I have to prove? They don't have anything to prove.

I have nothing to prove. It's like I know I can kick the toughest guys in the world's asses. Why would I be a jerk to you? And it's like I think a lot of people forget at the end of the day it's a sport. It's a sport. It's no different than football. Like football players, basketball players, they're trying to prove they're the best at their sport. That's all fighters are trying to do.

This isn't like a tough guy contest. It's a little bit different though, because if you're, for example, if you're in a bar and a fight breaks out, you know that you have a very specific, well-honed skill set that could take these guys down and they may not be aware of that. So I think that carries a certain responsibility with it as well. Like where, when are you going to use that? And when are you going to refrain from using that? You know? And so that, I think that makes it a little bit different from, yeah, it makes it a little bit different from like a basketball player, for example. Well, he doesn't, he doesn't

have that, you know, when, when, when a basketball player goes out, unless you're Charles Barkley, you know, there, There's not that inherent. There's two ways people approach you, which is so strange to me. They either think you're some superhuman ass kicker who can do things that are just mythical or they want to challenge you. Both are wrong. You don't want to challenge me. That's ridiculous. And I'm not this invincible ass kicker. Neither of those are right. You know, so I think, yeah, inherently, there isn't that position you're put in as a professional basketball player, you know, going out, you know, or a baseball player or even a football player football players are

big strong guys but i don't think it's the same that same mentality where people you know think oh it's a fight guy well it's weird too that in it's not even really like that with boxers like boxers are not marketed with the scowl that you know the sort of ufc image that comes to mind is you know what i Like, like you think of the, the hardcore UFC guy, that's very different than how you think of a boxer because of, because of marketing, not in reality. Yeah. And I, and I tend to, I tend to be more in line with that, that marketing. They're still athletes. There's just this inherent tough guy thing that UFC likes to push.

I say many times, I'm not a tough guy. I'm just a good fighter. You're an athlete. Absolutely. Yeah. All right. So let's get back to that part. So you start kickboxing and you go pro.

You're starting to travel the world and you're winning some fights you know what's going on with you around that time you're in your i don't know i guess early 20s yeah like most of the success like it was mid-20s you know i really didn't have that much of a life outside of like i, obviously I have my hobbies and my things that I like. You moved to Seattle, and this is where you really start to train and take it seriously. I was so focused. You're just living and breathing training.

That's all. You know, I was one of those guys that I'd fight on a Saturday and be back in the gym on Monday. Like, even if you say, I'm going to take a little time off. I never did. And I was just so,

especially with the fact that k1 was trying to grow and it was obviously so massive overseas but then they you know they tempt us with that we want to come to america and then we want to build an american fighter and you know you know historically americans had not done well in that type of fighting. There was a handful of guys that have ever even done it, let alone excel at it. Nobody, you know, Marie Smith at that time is the only American that has fought in the Grand Prix final, which is the final eight that they have every December. So, you know, when they say that in 98 they want to come here and they want to start building, it's like, oh, okay. Right. So you're seeing like a real career path ahead of you if you play your cards right.

Absolutely. Absolutely. So, you know, I went to the creator and promoter who was Kazuyoshi Ishii, and we're in a nightclub in Vegas the night before the fights. And I went right up to him. He spoke very little Japanese or very little English. And I went right up to him. I told him, you know, you said you're looking for American fire. He goes, yes, yes.

I go, I'm your guy. I said, tomorrow night I'm going to prove it. And I went out and got, you know, I had a big knockdown, won the fight. So it was like, yeah, you know, this is going exactly as I had planned it. All the training and everything that I have, all this, you know, blood, issues that I started, you know, suffering because I lost a fight, you know, a little bit more down the road. And then the fact that, you know, one of the big fighters ended up dying and it kind of became a freak show.

Because Japan can very easily become a freak show because, you know, big people were such a big deal over there that you know when when bob sap entered the the arena as a fighter in japan it became a freak show and it was like just find guys fanatical like fanatical fandom let's find some seven foot 400 pound guy to fight and and the real fighters kind of started taking a back seat and the combination of that and you know my own

issues that I was suffering because I could not, like I ended up losing a fight and I could just not I could not get over it mentally which was weird to me because I was always you know, that was always my thing mentally strong, get through anything but at the same time

I have a real issue with living in the past like I would sit there and dissect the fight if I would have done this and I wouldn't have done that this would have happened and it was like I just could not get over the fact that I lost so I think that became you know that became, you know, that.

And then, you know, that was still before the heart issue stuff happened. Right, which we're starting to inch up towards right now. So you're doing well, but you're having some setbacks. It's not like you're going, you know, 10 fights in a row without losing a fight. You're moving up, but you've got, you still have some Achilles heel, right? And so this idea of like having difficulty getting over a loss is kind of like your hamstring. Is that fair or no?

Yes and no, because, you know, at this point, I had, you know, still fighting a lot of, you know of the top Americans as opposed to any of the big overseas names. So in actuality, my medal had not really been tested in that way. I just think there were so many, how do I say, extenuating circumstances going on in my life and with training, like trying to find a home because I was kind of jumping around by that point with who I was training with. So I was just trying to find the right fit. So if this didn't seem right, and I would find at that point,

and that was part of the mental issues, was I could find one little thing. It's like with a girl, dating a girl, but you find one little thing. And so I can't commit to that. So you focus on that, and then it starts messing with everything else. I was doing things like that. I was playing mind games with myself. I mean, it was self-created, but those are the worst kind of mind games at the end of the day.

All right, so this is around 2006, right, when you're kind of mixing it up with these fights and, and heading into 2007, this is where kind of the whole, everything starts to shift. Well, it was right at the end of 2006. So you're getting ready for, you're getting ready for a fight and you have to get, you know, you have to get a medical exam, right? You have to get signed off. And so, yeah, walk me through, you know, what me through what happened. Because this is where everything kind of shifts into a different gear. This is where the real story begins. What happens is I'm training in Arizona. I'm working with Rick Rufus as his trainer to help him get ready for fights.

And then I end up getting an offer from an organization out of Thailand called S1, which is a massive organization in Thailand that run all the biggest fights. And they let me know they're going to do their first event in the United States ever. They're going to do it in Miami.

And it's going to be in August of 2006. This is like April. So they offered me a fight in eight man tournament, but it's going to be full more tie rolls, which to me is cool because not many heavyweights have fought full more tie rolls. I have. So it's like, cool. I got a big advantage here. So, you know, I start getting prepped and getting ready. And, you know, I'm running, like, South Mountain, which is in this massive mountain outside of Phoenix, which, like, if you drive your car from the bottom to the top,

it's 3.2 miles, and it's all up. Like, snake run, and I would run that. A Mountain, which if you've seen, if you watch football games, they show Sun Devil Stadium. It's the one with the A on top of it. It's like where the lights are on top, and it's like a straight climb. If you ever do it, it's literally like this. So I'm running that. So I'm having back issues and it's bothered me. So I decided to

fly back to Pittsburgh to see my orthopedic surgeon who has done like my shoulder in the past. He works with like the Steelers and the Pirates. So I go back there to get my back looked at and they tell me, you just got to rest. I mean, it mean it's just you know you had surgery on it in the past it's just it's getting a little worked over mm-hmm so I'm like yeah okay doc so right yeah that's not gonna work you're getting ready for this is a huge opportunity this absolutely but while I'm there I also go to get my licensing testing done for the fight in Florida. Cause you have to get,

you know, licensed by the Florida state athletic commission in order to fight in said state. And they have certain things they have to have you run through tests. It's, you know, it's very common. And,

uh, what happens is when they do the tests, my EKG comes back a little funky and knowing that I have this preexisting condition from having the, you know, the CHD, they're like, they recommend that I go see a,

you know, a cardiologist. So to make everybody happy, I do. Right. But you're like, you know, I've been dealing with this my whole life. This is no big deal.

Exactly. They're like, we're going to do an echocardiogram. Cool. As long as this gets you to sign off and I'm able to proceed forward to get my license, that all works out for me. So I get the echocardiogram done. Alright. I have the appointment in Pittsburgh with

the orthopedic surgeon. He tells me that. Yeah, I'm okay. I got to, you know, sure, I'll rest. Literally, as I'm walking out of the hospital, my phone rings. It's the nurse for the cardiologist. And she goes, let me ask you, can you talk right now? And I'm like, uh. Yeah, it doesn't sound good.

I'm like, I just know it's weird being around doctors my whole life. When the doctor doesn't call you himself, you know, he needs to see you in the office tomorrow morning. You can't just tell me over the phone. He needs to see you in the office in the morning. I knew something was up. So I went to that appointment and he told me that, you know, my, uh, my cardiac output was like just ridiculous and that you know basically i i'd have to get surgery so yeah the car that your cardiac output is at 20 whereas a normal human being is at like 65 or something like that and for somebody who's on, so, I mean, what does that mean? Does that mean that you're not pumping blood as efficiently? Like, I don't know.

It means you're not, your output isn't efficient at all. But what was happening with me was my heart ended up massively enlarging because it was pumping really hard in order to compensate. Compensate for that. And then it blew up, but because it blew up so much now, how it was compensating and letting me train was now going to kill me if I continue to train. Right. So it was, you know, like, right, right, right. One thing led to another. So of course I, so all the training, all the training was actually contributing to making this a bigger problem. Right. Exactly. And of course I was like, no, I want a second opinion.

So I go get the second opinion. They do a self-agile echocardiogram where they go down your throat and it comes back even worse. Yeah. Guy's like, it's 15, right? It's 15. He's like, you have to get surgery right now. And of course, you know, he had a crappy bedside manner. So I was like, you know, screw this guy. Mm-hmm. So of course I didn't listen and you know i met with my cardiologist and he's like dude no you can't do this and i was like well i'm going to so yeah i even get my eye test done stubborn like your dad i get the eye test yeah i get the eye test done you know so that passes with the state. I decide to go to Austin, Texas to train for this fight.

And I, you know, I train one day. Second day I go in. I'm training. First round of pads. I'm doing pads all out. Get done with the first round. Bell rings. Round's done.

Trainer goes, we're done. I'm like, what do you mean we're done? He goes, fuck you. Go look at yourself. And I'm like, what? He goes, go in the locker room and look at yourself. I go in the locker room. I'm literally like blue.

I'm like a shade of blue. He's like, I'm not doing anything for you. We're done. So I was like, wow. He's probably right so i actually called my cardiologist like right then and i think i'm rethinking this and i told him and he's like i'm gonna be honest with you i've actually done some research and he goes because that was like my big spiel was i can't fight i want to be able to fight he's like but you could you know you could die while you're training or in the ring.

I go, so I die happy. It's exactly what I told him. And he goes, I've actually done some research and there is a procedure that if you're eligible for it, they can do where you'll be able to come back to fight. And he said, there's a guy that played for the 49ers that did it in 1997.

And I was like, wow, really? And, you know big ups to him for doing uh all that research and finding out what what was possible and that's what started the road to getting you know the the surgery i ended up getting the surgery a month later right so you go back to pittsburgh you have this surgical procedure which essentially what do they do they do? It's like an aortic.

They put in an aortic valve or something like that? They completely replaced it. Completely. Replaced the entire valve. So what do they replace it with? Originally, they were going to do what's called the Ross procedure, which means they put a cadaver valve in. And they said, I could do it because I was in such good physical condition that was that's their big concern that's why they do it mostly with athletes they decided that they didn't have to do it like the week before and decided to go with

it's a bovine valve which is a you know a uh a pig valve it's because they're very similar to ours. So they basically put a pig's aorta into your heart. So what is it? Why is that better than a cadaver? Like, what is the difference? I guess the deal is they don't have to, like they use, they prefer to put mechanicals in, but if I wanted to come back to fight, I can't have a mechanical valve

because they would never, because I have to be on Coumadin for the rest of your life and they didn't want to, you know, they can't take that chance. So the tradeoff was I'd be able to come back to fight, but I'd have to get the surgery again within 15 to 20 years. They told me straight up. So my tradeoff was, okay, 15, 20 years. 15, 20 years. They told me straight up. So my trade-off was, okay, 15, 20 years. 15, 20 years is a lifetime. I was 35 at the time.

So yeah, I'm not going to be fighting, so let's do it. And they were like, okay. And they're like, but there's this catch that even if we do this, you might not be able to come back to fight because your heart has gotten so massively enlarged that it might not come down even with the procedure being done it might not come you know the the ventricle might not come back down i was like at this point it's 50 50 it's worth it to me right you know what i

mean so i i ended up you know saying let's do the procedure and you know we ended up saying, let's do the procedure. And we ended up doing it. And what the catch was, within 12 weeks, we're going to have to do another echocardiogram to see if the heart rate has come down and what your ejection fraction is, to see if it had come back up from 15. And I was so focused at this time with everything, just do everything the way they want it to be done, that I was moving so quickly ahead of schedule with my rehab

that after six weeks after surgery, like, we're going to do the echocardiogram. I was like, you guys said 12 weeks. They're like, well, we're going to find out. So they did the echocardiogram, and, like, that day was just like – and I had started gonna be actual rehab too as well like you know i'd go to the hospital and they would put me through a bunch of different things and uh next morning i get the phone call he goes he goes i'm just gonna say you're a freak of nature he goes he goes not only has your you know left ventricle come back down to normal size,

he goes, your cardiac output is already 60. He says, so you're going to be good to go. It's almost essentially normal. Yeah. Right. And so you get the green light to go train again. Well, I mean, what is the— I didn't do anything because they were so worried.

But when they rip your chest open, they get very touchy about that. I mean, let's be clear. They cracked your chest wide open. This is not a small— They saw it in half cracked your chest wide open. This is not a small – They saw it in half. They opened it up. This is not like orthoscopic surgery. Yeah, yeah.

So the big thing was they told me nothing for 12 weeks. Can't lift more than five pounds. Can't do this. Can't do this. There's a whole list of can't dos. So they said 12 weeks, right? So being somebody that always never listened, I'm like, I'm listening this time. And they told me 12 weeks.

So guess how many I'm going to do? 13. I give them an extra week. So that's what I did. And I ended up getting cleared for training. And that's when everything else started, like, you know, with my father and my mother. Right. So you're thinking, all right, now I'm going to train and I'm going to fight again.

And then you get hit with a whole slew of other things coming your way that you've got to navigate. Both your father passes away, your mother passes away shortly thereafter, and we haven't even talked about your brother, or I suppose it's your half-brother, correct? But you grew up with him, older brother? Yes. Who is essentially a lifelong drug addict in and out of your life

who eventually sort of does what you all expected him to do one day, which is overdose. Yes. The book, it's so painful to read the book and to hear about, you know, how he comes in and out of your family's life and to see that decay that's happening before your very eyes. And you just, you know where it's headed, right? before your very eyes and you just, you know, where it's headed. Right. Yeah. I mean, it's one of those things where this sounds terrible, but you know, it's like, how, how did it take this long? I mean, he was an addict for 30 years. And the one thing I will say that I was happy about is at least he waited till

both my parents had passed. That was the one, you know, good thing. I mean, if that sounds selfish, whatever, I'm just glad that they had passed before it finally happened with him. And I mean, that was a rough thing for me because I always had a very weird relationship with him. I, you know, I really looked up to him as a, as a kid, but then seeing his constant trouble and his ability to make bad things worse, never get out of his own way, it was saddening. It's kind of like seeing the downfall of a hero.

Because you don't know. That's your older brother. That's a kid. As a kid, that's a big deal. And he was cool. He was the cool older brother because he did kid as a kid that's it's a big deal and he was cool he was like the cool older brother because he did cool things he was into cool things you know gave me ideas on music and just things you know popular culture as a as a kid and he you know he was a rebel i mean yeah he was he was really screwed up, obviously, because of his addiction to drugs and the lifestyle that he led.

But he was a rebel. He did his own thing. Much like my father is much of a jerk as he could be, still he was very his own person. Right, this iconoclast. Right. I mean, as somebody who's sober now, you kind of, you know, I would imagine, you know, as a result of being sober a number of years and kind of what you've learned as a result of being in recovery. I mean, do you look back on your brother and perceive it differently? Or, you know, was there ever a moment where he tried to get sober and

it didn't stick or you don't even know he did but his were always bullshit attempts do you know what i mean just to make people for somebody else exactly you know so he never reached that moment where he he really wanted it for himself no no and like you know his idea was well i'm just drinking now or i'm just smoking weed now because i I mean, he was a garbage pill addict. I mean, he did, you know, he did everything. I mean, in the end, was it heroin or what was it? Because you weren't very, you weren't very descript. It was heroin at the particular, you know, at the moment when they found his body. So, you know. But it was, you know, different for each day, whatever you wanted to do that particular day or whatever you get ahold of,

you know, and, and it was rough for me because, you know, a week before we had talked on the phone and we had had an argument and he had done his thing. Cause he was, he was, he was lit up at the time and I knew it. And like with most, you know, addicts, when they're trying to tell you they're not, it's like, dude, I know you are. I can tell. And we're arguing, and he's saying some really, really just terrible things to me. And I'm like, okay, I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt

because I know you're lit up right now. And he keeps pushing it. And he's in D.C., so I'm like, and I come back to Pittsburgh because, you know, there's a lot of back and forth at that time. And, you know, he starts running his mouth about things. I'm like, really? Okay. And I'm having a tough guy moment.

So I'm like, really? Okay. Why don't you come up here and say it to my face? He's like, yeah, yeah, yeah, this, that. I said, I'll tell you what. I'm going to send you some money. I said, well, I had sent him some money. That was part of what the argument was over.

And I said, why don't you take that money I sent you, why don't you go find one of your dealers, and why don't you get really, really lit up? Guess what he did? That's exactly what he did. And the next time I heard was a couple days later when he ended up coming back to Pittsburgh and wasn't even aware.

Right, he turned up dead of an OD right in your, he wasn't in D.C., he was outside of Pittsburgh, right? He was literally about a mile from my parents' house. He was shacked up with some girl, and it was like a mile from... Why do you think he came back to try to find you? I think he came back because

that was familiar and he had still a lot of people in those circles. You know what I mean? In his drug circles that he was comfortable with. And he liked to BS his girlfriend at the time a circles that he was comfortable with and he liked to bs his girlfriend at the time a lot that he was trying to get sober and i think it was just easier for

him to kind of go off on a bender yeah there what what i thought you did really well in the book is is show it's easy to you know paint someone like that very one-dimensionally as just somebody who's a taker and you know is always trying to scam money off of people and all that kind of stuff. But you really got the extent to which an addict like that is so good at manipulating other people. They know exactly what to say. Even when you see through it it's still pulling on your heartstrings and you end up like doing the thing you said you were never gonna do you know and and being kind of codependent in that relationship and just how difficult it is because

you know he is your brother and and you did look up to him and he was the cool guy and how all of that plays into making it like it's it, man. It's confusing. Right. To navigate that. So he passes away. And all of these, so you have these three deaths that happen in a really short period of time. Yeah. Four months. Right.

So you've had this, you've had heart surgery. Your entire family is suddenly gone. You're back in the house that you grew up with, but now you're the only one there. Right. gone you're back in the house that you grew up with but now you're the only one there and and this sends you kind of into your own tailspin of sorts into you know basically drinking a lot and and you know kind of following a little bit in the footsteps of your dad and your brother which i would imagine your whole life you've been trying to get away from oh absolutely i mean i didn't i mean you know you can count the amount of times I had a drink on one hand until I hit my 30s.

Mm-hmm. You know, and I had never done any kind of drug, none. And then it was like, oh, well, the heck with that, you know, because it was just. You just had the rug pulled out. Yeah, as a way to, you know, I thought I was in control, but of course you're not. And you know, it, it sounds so cliche, but it was a way to numb all the pain. And I do everything big, you know, and I do everything, you know, balls to the wall. That's been my whole was like okay and much like the rest of my family i had a huge um tolerance i mean so then it became oh really you i became that guy now that i'm not able to fight to release those challenges or train the same way to release that you know know, to get that challenge fix on.

It was like, I'll just drink everybody here under the table. I'll do this. It's like, oh, you do six shots, I do eight. And that became like where my competitive nature was going out. It was just, and I was doing just dumb shit. You know, I'll drink everybody. I'll drug everybody. I'll get more women than you. I'll just – that's what I'm going to do.

It was ridiculous. Right, right, right. And you're kind of bouncing around. It sounds like you're doing a couple of geographics, right? Yes. You're in Pennsylvania and then you're in Austin and then you moved to L.A. In Vegas. Oh, Vegas too. I mean moving to L.A. seems like a bit of a wild card.

Like, you were bouncing around these other places, but L.A. was kind of a new place. L.A. was actually, that happened in, like, late 2008 as kind of, let's try to get my, you know, my shit together. as kind of let's try to get my shit together because there was, you know, the trifecta was really Vegas, Austin, and Pennsylvania. And I would go, when I was in Vegas, I'd go back and forth between LA and here because it's a quick drive. But, you know, what happened was I was in Vegas, then I got an offer to train guys in State College, which is in Pennsylvania.

So I was going to do that for a little bit, but that kind of fell apart. And I was like, this isn't for me. So you're training guys at the time, but you're not really, I mean, you're kind of training yourself, but you're not training to fight, really. Like, you just lost the spark for that. I'm saying I am, but I'm not committing the way I should. And then, you know, I'm doing all-nighters all the time, but I'm going to train. Like, I'll drink all night into the early morning. Then I'll sleep, wake up, go to the gym, and, you know, somehow think that, yeah, I'm actually training.

Right, right, right. Well, there's a weird kind of, like, addict-alcoholic ego thing with that too. You know, I used to remember like I would, I'd stay up partying all night and I'd still show up for 5.30 a.m. swim practice. And it's like, hey man, and I'd try, you know, and I'd get a good grade in the college class. You know, it's like, see, I can do all this.

I can do this. And I can stay up all night partying. So there's a weird kind of false pride that's just bullshit, really. Because a part of you says,'s a weird kind of false pride. That's just bullshit. Because a part of you says, you know, there's that, that, that smart part inside you go, come on, dude, what are you doing? And then, you know, the ego comes out and goes, but look, I'm doing so good and I'm doing all this stuff. Screw everybody. I can do it. Right. Get off my back. Yeah, exactly. But then what happens, like with every addict in the history of ever, the bottom falls out. And you're like, yeah, maybe I was a little bit full of shit.

Because, you know, there's a lot of self, you know, how do I say? You're tricking yourself if you think that you're not screwing up. Right. And it's a question of how long are you going to be able to perpetuate that denial? You know, I always say like, Oh, you know, you hear this all the time in the rooms, but you know, the elevator's going down, you know, how far is it going to go down before you get off? You can get off at any floor. Exactly. Right. So, um, so this elevator is going down and then you even, you know, we even talk about the car crash. You go through the windshield and this car in Austin, like there's, there ramifications happening you know basically your world is eroding around you right i mean i'm

dumb enough to get in it's like people like you were driving i'm like no i wasn't i was the passenger but then again you're like but i was willing to get into a vehicle with somebody that was equally as trashed as i was right and you weren't wearing a seat belt and i wasn't wearing a seat belt there's like so many genius things that I did in this particular situation. Right. And so you find yourself in L.A. And was there one moment where you were like, I'm done. I just can't do this anymore. Actually, I wasn't in L.A.

I had flown back to Pittsburgh to see my kids for Christmas. It was like December 23rd, and I decide to go get a tattoo. I haven't had one since 2009. I mean, it's crazy. I just have to believe. But I decided to go get one. So we go. He just decides to touch up one that I already have. And I'm like, you know know I'm just not into this and he's like well I've got you know

a bottle of vodka okay so we kill a fifth of vodka between me and him in like a half hour then let's go out drinking more so we go out start drinking more you know I talk to my girlfriend she's you know back at our place So we go out, start drinking more.

You know, I talked to my girlfriend. She's, you know, back at our place in downtown L.A. Shelby's in there, and she's like, what are you doing? I'm like, oh, don't worry about it. You know, and some things went back and forth. She's like, I'm not talking to you. So she, like, won't answer my calls. So I keep drinking and drinking.

And it's one of those where, okay, we all know drinking slows you down because it's natural to the present. So I'm like, I got to wake back up. So guess how I wake back up? I do cocaine. So now I get back up. So I drink some more.

Then I realize I got to watch my kids at like 7 in the morning. I'm supposed to go over and watch my kids. So I decided to leave. I have a key to my ex-wife's place. So I let myself in. I sit down on her couch because she's getting up early for work. on her couch because she's getting up early for work. And I'm so like where I don't even know where I'm at. I pass out. I'm like watching TV.

I pass out. But it's like what, like 3 in the morning or something like that? Right. I finally, I like wake up and I'm like, oh. It's only been two hours. I look at my phone. All these text messages, all these missed phone calls, and it's Shelby like, what happened?

Where did you go? What's going on? And she ended up freaking out. And we ended up having a whole discussion, and it was like it's got to stop because I was completely out of control. And then I wake up. I don't know if you've ever done cocaine, but what did your mouth taste like when you wake up in the morning? And you've got to watch your kids and your nose.

It was like, what the fuck am I doing? Right. So that was it. That was the moment. That was it? Yeah, and you've got three boys. Right. You've got a son and twins.

We didn't even talk about your marriage. There's too many things to talk about. It's like wrapping my brain around your life. And we skipped over the part where when you move to Los Angeles, you meet Shelby, who becomes your best friend, your partner, and ultimately your writing partner on this book. And that's a pretty pivotal aspect in your story. Like she really, she comes in and like any, you know, great woman, uh, starts to, you know, have an impact, a positive impact

on how you're living your life. Absolutely. So you come back and you're like, I'm getting sober, but you know, so you, you end up going to a meeting and you kind of get into recovery and, and really embrace that. Right. I was fortunate. had uh neighbors that i become friends with two guys that lived you know uh they were in the building next to me but we were able like if i open my windows because you know i had one of those old night you know buildings built 1900 and you were like living in a loft downtown right and they were like right across the way so we used used to talk and then we, you know, we ended up hanging out. They were both in recovery. So they invited me to a meeting.

So I went and that was like the first step. And I'm very good at cold turkey because I'm an athlete. So, oh, really? Okay, I can do that. But I knew that at that point, all I'm really becoming is, you know, the old term of dry drunk. So, I mean, addiction isn't about substances. That's just a, you know, that's just an effect of what you do. There's whatever. Substance is the cure to the problem for a while until it's not, right? You take You take that away, you still have it.

But that's not what the addiction is about. Exactly, right. You know, addiction is addiction, hence why in recovery we say, you know, I'm an addict because, yeah, I haven't had a drink or done drugs in almost five years, but I'm still an addict, you know, because it's a personality trait. It's actions that you do. And so I was able to actually get to the, you know, the crux of it.

I, you know, I decided I have to do this. And it's just you've been in ever since then, no relapses and, you know, just basically into the program. Yes. And between, you know, the program and seeing a psychologist weekly, you know, which if you would have told me that at 20, you know, that's for weak people, whatever, you know, the change has been just, you know, ridiculous. I mean, it's been the greatest, you know, part of my life. And so when does the idea of getting back into the ring start to crop up? I mean,

you have a clarity of thought now. Seriously, like at that point, you know, it's, it's, it's getting more and more serious in, uh, but especially, you know, spring of, of 2010. And it was, it was actually, I was going to come back to MMA, which was, you know, you know, the, the fact that I ended up being able to come back in kickboxing overseas, which is what I had mostly done in my career, excuse me, that was, that was a great thing. And, you know, it's just one of those things that kind of, like many things in my life, fell into my lap. But it was a good thing.

Right. This opportunity to go and fight in Moscow. Yes. Right. And tell me about this guy that they had lined up for you to fight. Honestly, I had no business fighting him. I mean, this is a guy that is, you know, active, is fighting, you know, is a world class fighter. Like the fight he had just had was at the time against the like number two heavy

weight in the world. And he had a, had a war with him. It was a three round war and, you know, I had no business, but at the same time, what am I going to do? Say no, you know, and everybody was like, Oh, it's just nice that he's coming back. They would tell Shelby that. And, you know, everybody expected me to get, you know. Get your butt whipped. Yeah. I mean, let's be honest. I hadn't fought at that point in almost six years. I mean, my last fight had been on my birthday in 2005.

And we're in 2011 now. This is May 28th of 2011. Yeah, that's a lifetime in the career of an athlete. The ring rust was ridiculous. But to be honest, my ex-wife had said it. A lot of people had said it. I had so much pent up in me over all the BS that occurred over those almost six years. It was going to get unleashed.

Then unfortunately I said it's going to come out. And it did, you know, so the fight only lasted, you know, I was officially it's eight seconds, but there's a word that it was three, because, you know, there was a water bottle in the corner. So they, they, he had stopped us from coming out, but it was basically, you know, you went out, I hit him with a kick jab, and then I hit him with a right hook, and the fight was over. Right.

And did you have problems getting cleared to fight? You know, you were the only guy who's ever— That's the beauty of overseas. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And we knew that was going to be a problem fighting in the States, and it was going to be a long road, but that gave us a little more leverage when we did eventually fight in the States. But that gave us a little more leverage when we did eventually fight in the States. Not that I ever did, but in that we knew that even with them going, well, nobody's ever done this.

But, yeah, but I fought here and you can watch the fights. I mean, the fights were on TV as well. So, you know, it gave it a lot of – it just gave us something in our back pocket. It's like we fought, so I'm good. Right, right, right. And to this day, right, you're the only guy who's ever stepped into the ring after open heart surgery. As a professional. There's now an amateur that's also done it. Does that include like boxing and MMA?

Yes. Like all of those disciplines. Wow. Any combat sport. Yes. Wow. But actually, the way you describe it, you feel like you were less at risk because you actually fixed the problem. Like for you to have – if you had gone into the ring before the surgery, that's much riskier.

People say that all the time. It's like I fought for how many years with the issue. Right. So I don't have the issue anymore. I understand people see a nine-inch scar down the front of your chest, so they get very – Right. A nine-inch scar down the front of your chest so they get very – Right. But the fact of the matter is the problem that you licensed me that I had for years and you licensed me with it, I don't have anymore.

So other than this physical thing that you can see – It's a better story though. Come on, man. It's a better story to say you're the only guy to do it. I'm going to take all this risk. I'm the first guy. You can't ever take away that I'm the only guy to do it. I'm going to take all this risk. I'm the first guy. You can't ever take away that I'm the first guy, but at this point still,

three and a half years later, I'm still the only guy. Right, right, right. And so you must be thinking at this time, I'm back, man. I'm in. It's full on now. Yes and no. I mean, there's that part of me that the ego fighter part still, but at the same time

I'm going, I was still off for almost six years. I knocked the guy out in eight seconds. They're throwing me like right back to, they want to put me, they're like putting me in the words with like the top guys right now and want me to fight the top guys. And my whole thing is, but I didn't fight for almost six years. Eight seconds does not give you the ring rest. Right, right, right.

So I'm just asking to get a bunch of fights. I'm like, I'll fight every month. I mean, you can give me fights in Germany. They're like, yeah, but they're not going to be for as big a money. I'm like, I don't care. I'm like, just make me active. Let me get all the ring rest off. So I have that fight.

I knock out Phelan. I don't get another fight for 10 months. The fight they end up offering me is one of the best heavyweights in the world. And not only is he one of the best heavyweights in the world, he's 6'5", 270 pounds. And we're going to fight him in Moscow, and he's from Moscow. And the deal is, I mean, there were so many games that were played. I ended up having a three-week camp from when they offered me the fight. You know, they sent a Dutch coach over here to train me.

And it was like, oh, you shouldn't do S&C. Just do kickboxing training. I'm like. What's S&C? Strength and conditioning. Oh. So you don't want to be doing anything outside of sparring and working pads. I'm like, that's a little strange.

I mean, to be honest, and I'm saying this out loud, yeah, I dealt with some, you know, at that time, there was a lot of bullshit. They're shady gangsters. That's just a fact, you know, and I'm fighting in Moscow. So I'm going to let you know who puts those fights on, you know, where do you think all the Russian money comes from? I mean, come on, it is what it is.

I understand that. But you know, the, the fight with him, I, I was coming off this big knockout, the fastest heavy knockout in heavyweight kickboxing history. And, you know, there's stuff all over TV, TV in France, all over Europe, but you know, anything I hit goes to sleep on that, this super France all over Europe about the you know anything I hit goes to sleep I had this super fast knockout

so you know what's in my mind I'm gonna knock him out and I actually you know I had a better game plan for him because he didn't like leg kicks

he didn't like movement because you know so I could have stuck with that hurt him with the leg kick but then what happens I hit him with the right hand and it really hurt him.

So I poured it on, trying to go, and I got in a gun battle with him, which is the absolute worst thing you can do against Sergei Haritonov, and I paid for it. He hit me with a right hand in my neck. Like, shut me off for two seconds. I drop, get back up, and I'm like a little this, trying to straighten myself out. Ref waves it off. Fights over.

Fights over. So, you know, once again, my, you know, trying to push forward, that mentality didn't work in that fight. I tried to, you know, you don't get into a, that's a fighter you don't get in a gun battle with in close quarters. And that's what I tried to do. You know, I was 220 for that fight and I'm giving him 50 pounds. Right. You know. Yeah, you're seriously outweighing in that fight.

So that was tough. And you weren't going to your strengths. Like you should have been, it sounds like you should have been, you know, on your kick game with that. Absolutely. And I should have been leg kicking and, on your kick game with that. Absolutely. And I should have been late kicking and removing and just kept doing that. I mean, I hit him with one leg kick and it hurt him, but yet the right hand is what I focused on. It's like, I'll hurt him with the right hand and I'll knock him out again.

You know, sometimes, you know, even with all my experience, you still fall for the same tricks in your own mind. Well, maybe if you had been fighting every weekend or just had a bunch of fights to get up to speed, you wouldn't have made that decision. I'm not going to sit here and make excuses but that's a

ring rush issue. Probably if I had worn off the ring rust, I wouldn't have chosen to engage in the way I did. Right. To just battle a bunch of guys that are kind of below your level or at least on par before you go hit the guy who's the king bee. Yeah. Right. You're fighting top guys in their backyard.

That's what I wish would have happened. That's what I wanted to happen. But unfortunately, with whatever issues I had with my former management, because that was the thing. I got signed after that knockout by the most prestigious management fight team in the history of kickboxing. I was the only American that's ever been signed by them. It was such a big deal. But at the same time, they played that whole fight like Rocky IV. They did.

Literally. Not just like, you know. Big Russian dude, you know. Against the American. And I'm like, come on. So I thought it was ridiculous. What are you going to tell them? But they were playing a lot of games and they had, you know, I'm not going to sit here and get into the politics of the fight game.

But there were a lot of things at work that are outside of fighting and outside of a fighter's control. So it is what it is. It's in the past now. Right. I choose to move forward. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So moving forward, I mean, the big next seminal thing that happens is you get this opportunity to fight in Madison Square Garden.

Right. And this is 2013. Yes, 2013. The fight was supposed to be in November 23rd of 2013. Right. And this is a big deal. I mean, fighting at Madison Square Garden. As a lifelong fight fan, you're fighting at Madison Square Garden.

And, you know, it's the first time I fought in the United States since 2004. You're talking nine years. So that was a big deal to me. And it's on national TV in the U.S. It's on national TV in the U S it's on spike TV. Cause it was the second fight that was on the new TV contract that the organization I was fighting for glory had with spike TV. So I'm like hitting on all cylinders and boom, the bottom falls out again. Right? So at least I had experience so at least i had experience at least i had experience in dealing so so the bottom falls out you get specifically you get pneumonia right and and uh and this

pneumonia is leads to kidney failure well what is the relation you have all these things going on with your pancreas you got your pancreas you got your diabetes you have your heart issue you've got all these things going it's hard to keepas. You got your pancreas. You got your diabetes. You have your heart issue. You've got all these things going on. It's hard to keep track of what's related to what and what's causing what. Well, exactly. The drugs that you're taking and all these sorts of things. But what happens with this is this is how this works. I get pneumonia or I get sick. I generally get over having a cold in like a day or two.

So it continues for like almost a week. And how far ahead of the game? I'm in San Diego day or two. So it continues for like almost a week. And how far ahead of the game? And I'm in San Diego at this time. This is like middle of October. So we're still like five weeks out. Five, six weeks out. Go to, come out here, because I was living in San Diego at the time.

Come out here again to see Shelby's family and decide, let's go to urgent care. Because I don't have insurance. So go to an urgent care, see what's family and decide, let's go to urgent care because I don't have insurance. So go to an urgent care, see what's up. Which is something I want to talk about too. I want to talk about

the whole healthcare thing. They say I have bronchitis. So they put me on antibiotic. Take the antibiotics for a couple of days and it doesn't do anything. So come out here again for Halloween and decide to go to the doctor again.

And they look at me again, actually take x-rays this time, like you got pneumonia, full-blown pneumonia. So they're going to put me on a stronger antibiotic, but they're also going to put me on prednisone. And because I had the inflammation of my lungs, whatever. So what happens is they say we're going to do blood work. They do blood work on a Monday night.

Everything's cool on Tuesday. They go, but we want you to come back on Friday and get blood work again because we want to see how you're progressing. So I keep taking the drugs, come back on Friday, get my blood work. That Saturday morning, it's what, November 2nd because Halloween's on a Thursday, whatever. Packing the car up to go to San Diego, back. And my phone rings and it's the doctor, one of the doctors at the urgent care care. You need to go to the emergency room right now. I'm like, what?

She's like, yeah, you're in renal failure. What are you talking about? Yeah, we got the blood work from yesterday. You're in renal failure. And you'd never had kidney problems prior to this. And I go to the emergency room, and I'm not going to get into names since we're on air, but they tell me where to go because I don't have insurance. They're like, this is your best bet.

So I go there. I'm not doing the research like I would do because they're like, you have to go to the emergency room or you're going to die. When they tell you those words, you're like, yeah, maybe I'm not worried about doing research. Subsequently, I did research on the hospital and it came back terribly. But the problem was being that I'm a type one diabetic, these geniuses in the emergency room assumed that I was in chronic renal failure. Because it's something that can happen after many years of being diabetic. They don't check my labs. They check nothing to find out what my history was.

Well, being that I didn't have kidney issues, my hemoglobin A1Cs, which is the big way we find out about how type 1 diabetic is doing, are in the 6s, which for somebody that's been type 1 diabetic for 30 years is pretty ridiculous. That's very low. Instead of looking into this, they decide he been type 1 diabetic for 30 years is pretty ridiculous. Like that's very low. Instead of looking into this, they decide he's type 1 diabetic. So they assume I'm a chronic renal failure.

Ended up doing dialysis, doing all this stuff. I'm in the hospital for nine days. This, that. I ended up going to a nephrologist a couple weeks later because I'm trying to get things figured out and i'm not liking the doctors that i'm dealing with so i went to one at cedar sinai who's like a one of the foremost nephrologists in the united states and he's like looks at all my stuff asks me a bunch of questions goes over everything he's like this wasn't chronic this was acute and they were like

it was the combination of the drugs they put you on and pneumonia. The infection and the drugs they put me on, kind of like I got one of those nice one in a million chances. It combined, and that's what shut my kidneys down. And it had nothing to do with the heart procedure. It had nothing to do with type 1 diabetes. But the other funny thing is, guess what else it did? It shut my heart down. Had nothing to do with my previous heart issue. So now, after I get my kidney transplant, which is the first one I get,

they are going to then six months later do a pancreas transplant. But then I have to get a heart transplant. So essentially you're – And it said nothing to do. Right, right, right. Yeah. Right. So essentially you're- And he said nothing to do.

Right, right, right. Yeah. Right. So Madison Square Garden off the table, and now you're looking at needing three transplants. That's the current state of affairs right now. So where does the pancreas come into it? I'm a type 1 diabetic. Pancreas hasn't worked since I was diagnosed.

Right. That's what happens. But why is that? Why are you now needing a transplant for that? Because I'm such a good candidate for it because of the fact that I've taken such good care of myself as a type 1 diabetic, and it actually will help the acclimation of the kidney. It'll make the kidney work better. And it'll make me not be a type 1 diabetic for about five years.

Right now, you need three organs. Yes. That's the hard fact. That's the hard fact. And if you don't get those transplants, how does this play out? I mean, how long can you go? Which one needs to come first? Like how does this all work?

The kidney is going to be the first. Obviously, if you don't get that, they would continue me on dialysis, which is basically being in prison as a human being. But the problem is the heart. I have an aortic aneurysm, which kind of means at any time it could go. Ticking time bomb. Exactly. My heart could just decide to pop. I mean, they had me on massive amounts of different medications to slow my heart rate down. My blood pressure when it's high, and you've got to remember, I'm tall. I've lost a lot of weight since I got sick. Yeah, I mean, you're a pretty skinny guy now.

I would imagine, how much do you weigh now versus when you were fighting? I've lost over 50 pounds. Yeah. I've lost 50 pounds since November. And right now I'm still about 175, 180, depending on before or after dialysis. But the highest my heart or my blood pressure will probably get is probably about 90 over 60. That's how many meds they have me on to keep my heart rate down because that's they have to keep my heart rate and my blood pressure down so it doesn't get my heart excited right and and because of the blood pressure

issue you've had problems with your eyes right like you get blood in your eyes and i know you the the rear of my right eye the blood blood vessels exploded. They popped because the blood pressure got so ridiculously high. And it caused me to go blind in my right eye because my eye just fills with blood. So, yeah. So can you see out of it now or you're permanently blind? Now what happened was they did surgery on it. So it's come back. I mean, it's obviously not back.

It was back to, like, 2040, but then, because I'm young and healthy, which is really weird to like the eye doctor told me like, when we do these procedures on older people, they don't have any issues because of the younger people, since you're actually young and healthy, you know, it, another one popped again. So they had to go in with a shot and cleaned it up. Right. But yeah, I'm back. I'm, I'm, I'm not back to my, what my left eye is obviously, Another one popped again, so they had to go in with the shot and cleaned it up. But, yeah, I'm back. I'm not back to what my left eye is, obviously, but I'm up to like 20, 40 now on my right eye. And so you had this acute renal failure, but now this is a chronic situation, right, that requires you to be on dialysis ad infinitum. What happened was, and this is exact words from the nephrologist is,

when you went into the hospital, into the emergency room, they had a very short window because it's acute, which means it's reversible. But they have a very short window in which they can act and follow protocol. Since they didn't act and follow protocol that protocol by not uh doing that they they put me they put me into chronic renal failure oh my god so now i also have to deal with that from a lot you know and this really all boils down to these medications that you were prescribed when you had pneumonia that that really was how that set in motion. It was like this domino effect that's now contributed to all these situations.

Yes. So is it that the renal failure had a negative impact on your heart, or why did the heart suddenly start to falter and put you into this position? Because it's the same thing. It's the whatever perfect storm of those medications and the infection, it happens. It's known to shut down kidneys and it's known to shut down hearts. Right. So I got lucky.

Right, right, right. So right now you're on donor list for these three organs, right? Actually, I have live donors. You have live donors. I have live donors for the kidney, and the testing got done last week with the

first live donor, so we should actually know this week. Oh, wow. So this could be happening really soon. This could be happening really soon. We should know what's going to happen. I read somewhere where there's a vegan triathlete in Arizona. Is this the guy? Is this the person?

No. That's another story. I probably know who that guy is. Mark Rollins is his name. And he offered. That's amazing. That's amazing. I never met him.

But the gentleman who's doing it now, a gentleman named Lucas Duran, he's 26 years old. He's straight edge. So he's never done anything. And he's been doing Muay Thai since he was 17, super athletic. So I'm getting, you know, what's a really good kid. He's literally, he's volunteered for this. I didn't meet him until, I met him last Tuesday. I'm going to see him again tonight.

Never met him before. That's amazing. Yeah. That somebody would just come out of the blue and say, I'm going to give you a kidney. Like what kind of, you know. I can't even put that into words. It's amazing. Yeah. That somebody would just come out of the blue and say, I'm going to give you a kidney. I can't even put that into words. It's incredible. Both Mark, who's the vegan triathlete from Arizona, and Lucas, of the three people who have offered. There's been a lot of people that have offered, but they've actually started the testing procedures.

Out of the three who have done it. Only one guy do I know personally, who is one of the people I told you about that lived across the way for me that was in the program. Right. Right. Yeah. He's a close friend of mine and he offered to give me his kidney because he's like, I'm never going to drink again. So amazing. Amazing. So, you know, this brings up kind of, you know, healthcare, like how many medications are you on right now on a daily basis? I take 64 pills a day. Right. And this adds up to about $2,000 a month in costs. And because these conditions that you have are pre-existing conditions, I mean, this CHD, you've had your whole life, right?

conditions. I mean, this CHD, you've had your whole life, right? So that's really kind of a bar to even entering into the discussion about getting insurance at a rate that would be even manageable. Yes. But what is fortunate is one of the things about Medicare, and it's actually, there's actually a form of social security that on the bottom says ESRD, which is end-stage renal disease. There's like five different forms Social Security does, and one of them actually has that on the bottom. I was able to end up getting Medicare because I'm an end-stage renal failure. I mean, none of the stuff before, like all the crazy stuff that happened before they gave me the Medicare, which was February, none of that is covered. So all those medications I bought, the $100,000 hospital stay, the ridiculous amounts of dialysis, that's not covered. But everything since February has been covered.

So now your dialysis is covered and the kidney transplant will be covered. Oh, that's great. So I got really lucky. But, yeah, that's one of the things. One of the things, it becomes kind of like right this way, Mr. Miller, when you have end-stage renal disease that the government doesn't cover. So I got lucky. Yeah, that's good. But that's not going to cover a heart transplant or a pancreatic transplant. No, the, uh, you know, they can probably tie

the pancreas in because of the way it works with the kidney, but no, the heart is going to be a different story. Right, right, right. So you're, you're racking up quite a bill here. Right. I believe what they do is it covers you for up to six months after you have the kidney transplant. They'll cover you and then you're done. So there's, yeah, it's great that they cover you, but it's very specific. Right. And so I saw that you have a GoFundMe campaign, right? I did. No longer. You did. No longer. Because I saw it, but it was like in a blog, but I didn't know if that was still going on. When the book came out, listen, the book came out, I just felt a little weird about having a book out and then still having a GoFundMe.

Right, right, right. And I was also fortunate that Shelby got a very good gig. She's a personal trainer, but she actually got an exclusive client who's, you know, ridiculously wealthy. So she has that gig now. So that's also helping. Yeah, that's good. That's good. And I guess you're just playing it day by day, right?

That's pretty much, you know, it's kind of like the program. One day at a time, dude. Right? So I get to really live it out. Right. So when you're not in dialysis, you are coaching some people right now, right? Actually, the cardiologist that I now have at Cedars-Sinai, and I quote, when did not being active ever help anybody from a medical standpoint? They didn't let me do anything for a long time. From like, you know,

when I got sick in November, they were so worried. Like you can walk, but that's it. And his whole thing was, I'm going to let you do things. Now, do I want you running sprints? Do I want you doing what you used to do? Hell no. But, you know, working with people, doing some light things like shadow boxing, he's like, I allow you to do that. So that's been great. And being able to start working with people again doing some light things like shadowboxing. He's like, I allow you to do that. So that's been great.

And being able to start working with people again, you know, I'm right up the road from where we're sitting right now doing the podcast. Right. So where's your gym? It's right up on Via Colinas. It's next to the CrossFit Fast. Yeah, I know exactly where that is. It's a performance gym that's owned by an ex-NFL player. Right, right, right.

You met my friend, Andrew Pasquale. He's an artist. He's got a space up there. No. I'll introduce you to him, too. Oh, very cool. Very cool, yeah. There's that Under Armour place, and then there's the CrossFit gym, and then it's called

the Factory. We're right there. Cool, man. That's exciting stuff. And I do some stuff out of Bosses as well. Boss Rootin has a gym right over my side. Right, right, right. But you can't get in

and mix it up too heavy no i can't really do anything myself i mean i can show things i can shadow box obviously but i can't because like obviously with my catheter the big concern is i can't sweat on this thing because i'm still i've refused to get the you know the stint put in right because i want to get a transplant and that thing is, that's a whole nother story. So. So in kind of just looking at your story and, you know, and in reading your book, I mean, you know, you have this onslaught of obstacles, health and otherwise, you know, use of upbringing and everything that we've talked about here today. And yet you still have this, you know, positive outlook and you still seem like, you know, you're an optimistic guy. Like you're living in the moment. You're, I mean, you're forced to live in the moment, obviously because of the circumstances, you know, under which you're, you're dealing with

right now, but how do you, you know, what is your approach when, when, you know, again, you know, something else comes up and, you know, how do you, how do you kind of maintain your composure? And how do you take that step forward when you just think? Same thing I said earlier about, oh, this is what I have. Okay, this is what I've got to do. It's the same thing. There are ends in sight to what I have. Do they suck? Are there a lot of problems that I'm dealing with? Yes. But at the same time, I'm able to say, if I do this

and do this, I'll get to here. And they're able to give me this surgically or whatever. So that's all I do is I say, okay, so I follow those guidelines. You know, they have very specific diets, specific ways you're supposed to do things in renal failure. So I do exactly what the doctors tell me. They say take these medications at this time. I do it. And I know that I'm going to get to the end. And to me, you know, no matter what stuff has happened in my life, my, one of my mantras has always been, it could always be worse. And it me, you know, no matter what stuff has happened in my life, one of my mantras has always been it could always be worse.

And it can. No matter how bad it is, let's be honest, it could always be worse. You know, I'm not some kid growing up in the streets of Calcutta. So, yeah, this sucks. But at the same time, it's perspective. It's all your perspective. Right, right, right. It's perspective.

It's all your perspective. Right, right, right. And I think it sounds like it's helpful to you to just be in the present moment and ground yourself in what's happening now. I mean, as you know, in recovery, it's like do the next right thing. What's right in front of you to do right now? And be of service. And that's the other thing. This gives me an opportunity to be of service because I can focus on that. to be of service because you know i can focus on that and you know it's just i've kind of approached this like i'm like i'm getting ready for a fight okay it's like i i know what i have

to do i have to be disciplined and there's certain things i have to do in order to prepare to be my best for a fight so i do the same thing with this. The fight right now is the first transplant will be the kidney transplant. So how am I best going to be in my best shape? Everything's going to be absolutely the best for when I get the kidney transplant. And that's how I treat it. That's how I treat beating the sickness. And it's putting the serenity prayer into action, really, because there's only so many aspects of it you can control, right? So you You can control your physical wellbeing going into it. You know, you can't control what's going to happen when they put anesthesia and put you under, you know what I mean? You can't control the donor list. You can't control, you know, any of these things.

And be smart enough to know the difference. Yeah, right. And how do you find serenity with the aspects that you can't control, which are terrifying? with the aspects that you can't control, which are terrifying. For me, the thing is this. I still have an awesome girlfriend. I have three awesome kids. Everything with them is going awesome.

And, you know, yeah. The other thing is, as I go through this, how many people that are going through Ruth Foyer have a book that's getting critical acclaim that's out as well? And I have all these interviews that I'm doing right now. So it takes my mind off of it and I can focus on doing that. You know, we're in the realm now of, of movie offers. Those discussions are happening.

They want to turn just the book into a movie. And when you think like, you know, I'm going through the same things now, like who wants to see this? Like, you know, I'm no,

I'm, I'm no superstar, but then I look, Michael orr, pretty, you know, he's a run-of-the-mill. He's a professional football player, but he's not an all-pro, one of the top offensive linemen. They made a great movie about him. And my thing is, how many people have those opportunities? It's like, yeah, I'm going through all this stuff that sucks, but I have other things that I can focus on to get me through the day that are bigger than me.

So that's where I'm at. Service, man. The more you just ground yourself in that, then the other stuff works itself out. And your book really is of service. And I think we talked about it before the podcast, like, you know, you wanted to be of service in this book. And I think you've accomplished that. It's a great act of service.

And what has been, you know, what's been the response? Like, how has it changed, you know, sort of your, now that this is out there and a lot of people who, you know, in the fight world, people know your story, but not so much outside of that. I mean, it's crossed over into that more people know about it. Then when obviously when somebody like Anthony Bourdain tweets about it, tweeting about it, he's talking about it in interviews, he's bringing it up. And I mean, that's that brings a whole new world of people to to it because people always would say about this story, like you just got to get the story out there. But yeah, and I had so many people, all these big things are going to happen with this. And it's like, you know, it got to the point where like five years later, I'm still waiting. But it just depends on who decides to put your story out there. And that's why I was very

fortunate in somebody like Anthony Bourdain. He's a guy that all eyes are on him. He has a very successful show, you know, great writer. And his imprint is new. Exactly. So he's going to want to make sure that these first offerings that he puts out there are going to be consistent with kind of what he wants his publishing company to be. Right. So what was that process like of working with him to put it together it was kind of how involved did he get in in kind of you know the editorial aspect of it if at all well he he would get involved in drafts not so much even like you know

in his recommendations on this but you know i was able to stay with him you know in the hamptons. That's pretty sweet. But he would cook for us and we'd stay up late night just talking about things. And he was able to pick his brain to get his ideas on certain things. And that helped from somebody that's actually been there, done that. And that was great for the creative process. And then it gave me, like I said, somebody who has been there, has done that,

and has been ultimately successful at it. Well, he's a great storyteller. I think his truest gift is in his ability to really tell a great story. It's like, is he the greatest chef in the world? Like there's other, you know what I mean? No, he'll tell you that. It's like, you know, but it was his ability to tell a story that transcended him past all that and made him into you know kind of

a cultural icon he is today people want to watch his shows when he travels all over the world i mean on his footer page it says enthusiast and couldn't nothing couldn't you know a statement couldn't be truer about a person he really is genuinely interested in like cultures different foods everything he just wants to learn about everything so yeah right and that's infectious absolutely um i mean when you were writing the book what were your kind of ground rules for how you wanted to tell your story i wanted it to be and I've had people say how, you know,

it kind of reads like a screenplay because I didn't want any fluff going back to that sugar Ray Robinson book I talked about. I didn't want it to read like a Wikipedia page. So I didn't want a lot. It just was raw, bare bones. Yeah. The chapters are short and they cut out all the middle stuff.

It's just, you just go from kind of seminal aspect of your life to the next one without without all the how do you get from that place to the other that's not boring i don't try to like have a lot of fluff you know you know you remember when you're in school when you're writing they talk about padding i never wanted to do that i personally don't want to read books like that. So to me, you know, it's like, well, you're very, you're very self-aware when you're reading a book and it's like, come on, I'm not saying this isn't a good book, but you're, you're padding some of this right now.

I don't want to read that as a reader. So I didn't want to put that across to anybody to read. And I think that's why it's been such a success with people who are like, I never read books or I've never, haven't read a book from cover to cover in 20 years, 25 years. How many people have said that to me, have come to me online and said that? That's a good feeling because that's what I wanted. I wanted to be able to relate to people and let people actually read it. Or I read the whole, I got so into it. I read the whole thing last night. That's what I wanted. Well, it's really well written too, you know, and it's, it's the rare athlete, you know, I don't know how much, you know, you wrote and Shelby wrote, but there's no ghostwriter here. You know, usually the athlete, it's not a writer. They bring on a

ghostwriter, whether that person's name is on the cover or not. I assure you that most, most books by an athlete, you know, there's somebody else who's writing on that book. And I know that they approached you and said, do you want that? And you said, no, I'm not going to do that. So this was written by you and Shelby. And it's incredibly well-written. And I think that that goes back to what Anthony saw when he was reading your blogs and he could tell that you were a storyteller. And he said time and again in these interviews, anybody can write about what it's like to punch somebody, these interviews, like anybody can write about what it's like to punch somebody, but what you really bring to it is what it's like to get punched, you know,

like the human experience of like what that feels like. And when you're in these fight sequences in the book, like you really, you feel the fear, the terror, all the conflicting emotions that are going on, you know, that, you know, are circling in your brain as a fighter in that precarious situation where, you know, your life's on the line. And the thing is, I mean, I'm fortunate that I have a supremely, you know, talented girlfriend who can, you know, has the ability to translate my voice. You know, and the two of us working together while it was, it was trying at times. I'm sure it's not easy. Especially with the subject matter that we were talking about. But at the end of the day, it worked out.

You know, just it worked out. I mean, there were some rough times. But we got through it. You know, so that's what I'm happy about. I mean, there were some rough times, but we got through it. You know, so that's what I'm happy about. You're able to tell the story in the raw fashion that I wanted. They didn't screw with it in editing, which I was thankful for. And, you know, now moving on, apparently we're dealing with, you know, producers in Hollywood who are going to be willing to let this story get told.

And as I told him straight up, I don't want Rocky. This isn't a Rocky story. I want it to be raw and I want it to be what it is. This isn't the feel-good movie of the year because that book wasn't the feel-good book of the year. I mean, it is what it is. I mean, are there parts that are uplifting? Yes. But there are some parts that are going to have you going,

Jesus, why am I reading this? So I just want it to be what it is and not get, you know, I'm going to say this excuses the French, but I don't want to get too fucked with. And I'm glad that you have to be careful, Matt.

You gotta, well, you're going to have to have Anthony on your side. You know, it's pretty easy to, you know, being in Hollywood, like you see these stories just get churned through the mill with the studio system and end up on the other side looking nothing like what. Exactly. So that's been one of my concerns.

So we'll see, you know. Listen, man, these are quality problems to have. Exactly. You know what I mean? First world problems. Yeah. You could be drinking right now. Exactly. You know what I mean? First world problems. You could be drinking right now. So it's pretty awesome. And yeah, we got to wrap it up here. Wow. We're two hours. Yeah, I know. Yeah. You got to get out of here. I got to take my son to a soccer game. But listen, this was amazing, man. Thank you for taking the time. Thank you for having me. It took us a while to get together and do this, but I'm glad

Ginny hooked us up. She's cool. How do you know Ginny? Shelby knows her. That's cool. She's awesome. Yeah, very cool. Well, you're an inspiration, man, and I'm glad to be able to... Oh, so are you. I'm going to let that out there. Come on now. I'm proud and honored to be able to share your message with everybody. So everybody should go check the book out. It's called Pain Don't Hurt by Mark the Fight Shark Miller right there. We didn't even talk about why you're called Fight Shark.

So you're going to have to read the book to find that out. You will. It's in there. With Shelby Jones also. And what do you have coming up other than dialysis? You doing any like, you go around and speak? Not yet. Just because it's a little, I'm actually supposed to talk to the wrestling team at Westlake High School.

Oh, cool, man. That's going to be one, but it's just a little tough because of the dialysis stuff and the fact that the transplant is coming up. Yeah. Yeah. So, yeah, but there should be, there's going to be, I mean, that's the next, that's the next. Yeah. You got to get out, you got to get out and share your story, man.

And I mean, they're finding that out through the book signings when they let me talk. They're like, well, you can, you can talk. I'm like, I, all writing is, is me talking into the page. So yeah, I can do that too. And I've told them. I said, plus you've got to understand I have a history. Since I'm a fighter and doing this stuff, I've done this for years.

And as a fighter, you know, I'm my own brand. If I don't promote me, nobody else is going to. So, you know, yeah, stand in front of people talking. I told them. That's like me. It's not ego, but it's like me walking down the street. Not real hard for me to walk down the street. This stuff is not going to bother me.

And they're like, wow. And they're getting, you know, when like book, uh, uh, book,

the soup told them like, wow, like his, he had this huge, you know, signing. Yeah. And when he talked,

like people were just like, wow. And there was actuallySoup. Yeah, and when he talked, like, people were just like, wow. And there was actually a Hollywood producer there that was like, yeah, we need to do more with this, you know,

which is something outside of even turning the book into a movie. So, yeah, it's afforded me a lot of opportunities. Yeah,

that's cool, man. That's exciting. So, for sure. So, we'll have to have you back on when the movie's getting made.

Let me know when. We can talk about it. For sure. Cool, man. So if people want to dig on Mark and find out more, you're on Twitter at at FightShark underscore com.

And on Instagram at FightSharkMiller. Yes, sir. And anywhere else you want to direct people to go? There's the Facebook fan page, which is just Mark FightSharkMiller. Right. Cool, man. Dude, thanks so much. Awesome. Cool. Thank you.

All right, you guys, that's it. We're done. This is the end of the show. I hope you enjoyed Mark at a minimum. He should leave you re-evaluating your own life, how you deal with obstacles, and more importantly, how those obstacles determine your resulting actions and your perspective on yourself and the world around you. So don't forget to check out Pain Don't Hurt. Use the Amazon banner ad, of course, to purchase it.

Link is in the show notes. Please, if you haven't already, give us a review on iTunes. Again, we're approaching 1,000 reviews, and it would be great to hit that in the short run. Not in the long run, in the short run. So do me a solid. Take the two minutes it takes. Go to iTunes and make it happen. I appreciate that.

If you're in L.A., don't forget to check out Joy Cafe. Fueling awesome, as is the cafe tagline. It's right in the heart of Westlake Village in the West Valley off Agora Road and the 101. You can find me there at lunch probably three or four times a week. So come by, say hi, get some delicious food, be feeling great. And I'm really proud of this new restaurant. So just excited to spread the word about it. If you want to stay current with all things plant powered, subscribe to my newsletter at richroll.com. I will not spam you, but I will be sending out weekly podcast updates and some exclusive content, deals, sales, discounts on products, stuff like that. Along those lines,

again, go to richroll.com for all your plant powered needs, merch, nutritional products, et cetera, and go to mindbodygreen.com for my online courses. Thank you so much for supporting the show by telling a friend. Continue to do that. Use the Amazon banner ad at richroll.com. You can donate to the show, subscribing on a weekly or monthly basis, any dollar amount you choose. Thank you so much to everybody who has gone that extra mile and has done that. And keep on Instagramming. Please keep sharing how, when, where you are enjoying the RRP. Don't forget to tag me, at Rich Roll, so I can see it and share it and give you a thumbs up.

Okay, the assignment for this week. I want you to make a list of the top 10 worst things you think have happened to you in your life. Draw a line down the middle of the page. On the left-hand side, I want you to write those things down one by one. And then in the second column on the right-hand side of the paper, I want you to write down how each one of these experiences has informed how you acted as a result, how it defined who you think you are and the story that you tell yourself about who you are.

If you do that, you do it openly, honestly, a pattern should emerge. Maybe it's good, maybe it's not, but it will tell a story. Now I want you to take out another piece of paper and I want you to write down a list the same way, draw a line down the middle of the page. On the left-hand side, I want you to make a list of the 10 obstacles you are currently facing. And in that second column, I want you to write how you are dealing with each of those. You know what would be great? Add a third column even and write how you can change how you're dealing with them to

deal with them in a more positive, productive manner. I want you to think about Mark and I want you to reevaluate whether there might be a better, more positive way to approach and move through each of these obstacles. That should keep everybody busy for the week. All right, you guys. Until next week, peace. Plants. Thank you.