The Rich Roll Podcast - Osher Günsberg Interviews Rich

Episode Date: May 17, 2013

Today we switch gears a bit. How? This time the interviewer becomes the interviewee. Why?  In just a few days (May 21st to be exact), the paperback version of Finding Ultra* hits bookstores — front table placement at Barnes & Noble! — or so I've been told….I'll believe it when I see it — and online retailers. It's quite an honor that I am even getting a paperback release at all, and I want to make the most of the rare opportunity. On that note, my publisher thought it might be fun to have someone interview me for a change. Not to ask the same old questions I'm always asked, but to kind of go beyond the typical “Where do you get your protein?” line of inquiry and delve deeper. I must admit I wasn't to keen on the idea initially. This podcast isn't really about me, it's about my guests; I'm just the host. Then again, if I could find the right person to do it — somebody who knows me quite well and has something to really bring to the equation — then maybe it could be cool. Who? Well I found the right guy. Not only is Osher Günsberg a good friend, fellow plant-eater, marathon runner / aspiring ultra-runner and all-around cool dude, he's also a professional host. Those Down Under likely know this swarthy, handome and dynamic gentleman as ” Andrew G. ” — host of Australian Idol (Australia's version of American Idol) and from an array of other radio and television programs in both Australia and here in the U.S., including the CBS show Live To Dance, which he co-hosted with Paula Abdul. In addition, he is a proud supporter of the Indigenous Marathon Project, which provides an opportunity for Indigenous men and women of Autralia to run the New York Marathon, which is not only inspiring but helps encourage healthy, active lifestyles. A long way of saying he is total pro. And in this interview, it shows. Then there is this little matter of how — in the right light — we can appear to look somewhat similar. Don't believe me? Check the Instagram I posted the other day — it's over the top; although he is admittedly far more handsome and charming than I. Dopplegänger Günsberg. Forgive the phrase — I know it sounds like everyone's favorite hair band. I guess I just wanted to write two words in a row with a diaeresis. I think you will really enjoy my conversation with Osher. He’s the man. THANK YOU! Rich

Welcome to the Rich Roll Podcast, Episode 30, with Asher Gunsberg. The Rich Roll Podcast. What's up, everybody? Hey, it's Rich Roll. It's the Rich Roll Podcast. It's Episode 30. I can't believe we have done 30 episodes. That's crazy. I started this podcast back in December when my family and I were living on the North Shore of Kauai at this organic farm. And I was sort of feeling the need for a creative outlet for a little bit of a hobby and just did it on a flyer and had no expectations. And I'm just amazed that the show has found an audience.

Very, very grateful. And I'm having so much fun doing it. I feel like I learned something new with every guest and every episode, and I hope you do too. And hopefully I'm getting better at doing this. The first couple ones were admittedly a little bit rough, and I'm certainly no professional broadcaster, but hopefully I'm getting better and you are continuing to tune in and enjoy the show. What's going on? Well, I'm in New York City. Very, very excited to be in New York. I love New York City. I used to live here in the late 80s. And until last year, it had been many years since I'd visited. And I now have had the occasion to come back here a couple times. And I just, I love the vitality of it. I love the energy. It's so fun to be here because living in Los Angeles,

I live in a very beautiful rural kind of remote part of LA outside of town and have the good fortune of being surrounded by a lot of natural beauty. But I miss the energy of the urban environment. And there's just something about New York. It's irreplaceable. of the urban environment. And there's just something about New York. It's irreplaceable. It's the greatest city on earth. So it's always fun and a gift to come back here. I just got back from a 14 mile run in Central Park, two full loops plus in Central Park. And I just love it. I love being up early, getting out there and seeing all the people out there biking and running and getting fit. And I don't know, man, just something about this place. So great to be here.

Why am I here? Well, I am here, well, for two reasons, really. First of all, I'm speaking on Saturday, May 18th at an event called The Seed Experience, which is down in Soho at 82 Mercer Street. It's this super cool, huge loft space. And I did this event last year. It was really fun. Last year was the first year, and I'm so glad to be coming back this year to speak. I'm speaking Saturday at five o'clock,

but the event goes on all day Saturday and all day Sunday. And essentially, it's just a smorgasbord of plant-eating goodness, tons of vendors and amazing food, and a battery of amazing speakers. In addition to me speaking, Brendan Brazier speaking, who you know him as the Vega founder and kind of very well-known plant-based advocate. is the Vega founder and kind of very well-known plant-based advocate. Tim Van Orden, the raw running guy, who was a guest on this podcast a couple months ago, he's going to be there. Who else?

I think Kathy Freston's speaking. There's a whole bunch of people speaking. They're doing phone screenings too and all sorts of events around it. It's super groovy. So if you are in New York City or in the vicinity, I encourage you to stop by and check it out. If you want to learn more, you can go to theseedexperience.com. And again, I'm going to be speaking five o'clock at Saturday for like an hour and I'm going to be signing books and I'd love to meet you and sign your book, shake your hand, whatever. So that's one of the reasons I'm here. The other reason I'm in New York is that the paperback version of my book,

Finding Ultra, is coming out on the 21st, May 21st. I'm very excited. I'm very honored that Crown decided to issue a paperback version of the book. It's an indication of the strength of how well the book has been's an indication of the strength of how well the book has been selling and, uh, it's a blessing and an honor, um, to be able to, to, uh, to have that. And, uh, so I'm here doing some press around that and trying to get the word

out. Um, and you know, in a self-serving way, I suppose. I'm trying to sell books, right? They're like, hey, you know what? You didn't make the New York Times bestseller list with Finding Ultra, but maybe you can make the paperback list with the paperback issue of Finding Ultra. So, I'm here trying to drum up interest and all that kind of good stuff. And on that note, that kind of brings me to today's episode what we're doing today and kind of honor sort of honoring the 30th episode and also in anticipation of the paperback release my publisher suggested and I thought it was kind of an interesting idea they said hey you know what you know you've interviewed all these amazing people. Why don't

you have somebody interview you? And I kind of said, well, you know, I do these interviews all the time. I think people are sick of hearing what I have to say. I feel like I'm constantly repeating myself. And they said, well, what if you had a friend of yours do it? And they kind of asked you the stuff that, you know, you don't usually get asked, or they kind of go beyond the typical interview questions that you get. Maybe there's something interesting there. I don't usually get asked or they kind of go beyond the typical interview questions that you get maybe there's something interesting there i don't know um but i thought about it and i thought it could be cool i think it all depends on getting the right person to do it and uh today i definitely uh found the right guy to do it my friend osher gunsberg uh interviews, and we talk for almost two hours.

And it was a great opportunity to kind of get into some stuff in a deeper way and kind of go beyond the typical questions that I get. Like, hey, where do you get your protein? And what do you think about when you're running that far or whatever? And kind of the standard five or six questions that I typically get. And Osher is a total pro. I mean, this guy, I, I only met him recently, but we've become fast friends. Uh, he's an Aussie transplant. And for those of you who are tuning in from down under, you probably know him as Andrew G. He was the host of Australia's version of American Idol. So I think they call it Australian Idol or just Idol. I'm not sure. But, you know, he's a professional TV personality and host and a radio host and a journalist, kind of an on-air

guy who's very, very good at what he does does he's incredibly dynamic and fun and energetic and inquisitive uh and we had a great time uh talking and he really you know he pushed me and we probed into some cool stuff so i hope you enjoy the interview uh as much as um i enjoy doing it with usher uh we've been out running in addition to kind of what he does professionally. He's also a long term vegan plant-based guy. He's been eating plant-based diet for like 10 years. He's gotten into running and marathon running and he's training for his first ultra. He's going to do the Bulldog 50K, which is in Malibu Creek State Park, Malibu Creek State Park down the street from where I live. And so, you know, we have lots of commonalities and common interests. In addition to bearing a kind of bizarre semblance of looking like each other.

If you follow me on Instagram, you might have seen the picture that I posted the other day of Asher and I. We're both wearing the same glasses and the same white V-neck t-shirt with a little bit of scruff and the same haircut. And we look a little bit too much alike in that photo. I thought it was pretty funny. If you haven't seen it, just go to my Instagram at richroll and check it out. So today it's all about the paperback.

I'm just trying to get the word out. So if you've enjoyed Finding Ultra, please spread the word. Father's Day is coming up. Might make a good Father's Day gift. And now that the paperback is coming out, it's cheap too. So, if you're interested in doing that, what do you do? Well, I would suggest that you use the Amazon banner ad at richroll.com. If you go to richroll.com and click on the podcast page on the right-hand side, there's an Amazon banner ad. If you're going to buy something on Amazon, like your Father's Day paperback version of Finding Ultra, just click the banner ad. It'll take you to Amazon, buy buy whatever you're going to buy it's not going to cost you anything extra but amazon throws us a few pennies and it helps keep the podcast going and i really appreciate all the people that have

been using the banner ad it's amazing uh to kind of uh check the account once in a while and go wow there's a lot of people that are supporting the show by making their purchases using that click-through. And that just, it's amazing. It feels really good and makes me feel better and better about doing the show that people would go out of their way to do that. And also beyond that, we have a donate button for people that are feeling inclined to go the extra step and throw us a few dollars directly. You can do that. And we've gotten a lot of donations from people, which, you know, I was even like dubious about putting that up to begin with. Like, I'm going to ask for people, ask people for money.

Like, you know, this is free. It will always be free. You don't want to donate. You'll always get it for free. But for people that feel like going out and throwing us a few bucks, hey man, that's great. We have expenses and that's really helping cover the cost of doing this. And it takes me a lot of time. I wish I could do this every day or at least three times a week, but for every show, it takes me about three or four hours

to post-produce it and get it up after I've done the interview. And it's work. It's definitely work. And it's time that I could be spending training or doing other work or spending time with my kids and my family. But I believe in it. And we are at almost half a million downloads. Actually, by the time this episode goes up, we might even cross it, which is incredible. So, thank you, everybody that has been tuning in and subscribing. If you've been enjoying it, spread the word, tell a friend. That's all. It's free. It will always be free, like I said. And hey, leave a comment on the iTunes, uh, on the iTunes page for the show.

We've gotten a lot of great comments there. And again, another reason to thank all of you, you guys are making it happen. You're putting wind in my sails and, uh, giving me the resolve to keep this going. And we've got a lot of things, uh, coming up for the show that are exciting. I'm looking at, uh, bringing on a producer and looking for some studio space so I can kind of take this to the next level professionally and institute some systems and get some people to help me. And if I can do that, then I can probably put up more episodes because I won't be shouldering the burden of actually doing every single thing myself, which is what I've been doing so far. So anyway, that's it. Osher Gunzberg, we sit down, we talk two hours.

It's pretty epic. He's a great guy. If you want to know more about Osher, you can follow him on Twitter at Osher Gunzberg, O-S-H-E-R, Gunzberg, G-U-N-S-H-E-R Gunzberg, G-U-N-S-B-E-R-G. I'm going to have him back on the podcast and interview him

because he's up to some pretty cool stuff too with his advocacy work. He's getting involved in the Aboriginal Running Marathon Project, which is pretty neat, working with the indigenous people in Australia. And I want him to come on and talk about that. And we can talk plant-based eating. marathon project which is pretty neat working with the indigenous people in australia and i want him to come on and talk about that and we can talk plant-based eating we can talk running

and ultra running and all of that but this time he's kind of turning the uh the focus on me and peeling back the layers and i'm going to do this sort of um paperback release uh interview of me in two installments. This is going to be Oshers interviewing me. And then in a couple of days, I'm going to upload part two, which is Mishka Shabali interviewing me. And Mishka was a guest on the show last time I was in New York. So what was that?

I don't know, a month or six weeks ago. It was a really popular episode. We had a really intense conversation and I thought that he would be a good guy to also interview me because he can get into some of the other kind of subject areas that I touch on in the book that he can relate to personally, like the recovery story and all of that. So I sat down with Mishka last night when I got into New York and we had another hour and a half, a really intense conversation, but this time him asking me the questions and I'm going to upload that as part two of this kind of paperback release thing. So again, finding ultra the paperback comes out five 21, get it for father's day, tell a friend,

get the word out, help me spread the word. Maybe we can make the New York Times bestseller list. If we do, it'll be because of you guys and you guys only. So thank you. Thank you. Thank you. We're brought to you today by recovery.com. I've been in recovery for a long time. It's not hyperbolic to say that I owe everything good in my life to sobriety. And it all began with treatment and experience that I had that quite literally saved my life. And in the many years since, I've in turn helped many suffering addicts and their loved ones find treatment. many suffering addicts and their loved ones find treatment. And with that, I know all too well just how confusing and how overwhelming and how challenging it can be to find the right place

and the right level of care, especially because unfortunately, not all treatment resources adhere to ethical practices. It's a real problem. A problem I'm now happy and proud to share has been solved by the people at recovery.com, who created an online support portal designed to guide, to support, and empower you to find the ideal level of behavioral health disorders, including substance use disorders, depression, anxiety, eating disorders, gambling addictions, and more. Navigating their site is simple. Search by insurance coverage, location, treatment type, you name it. Plus, you can read reviews from former patients to help you decide. Whether you're a busy exec, a parent of a struggling teen,

or battling addiction yourself, I feel you. I empathize with you. I really do. And they have treatment options for you. Life in recovery is wonderful, and recovery.com is your partner in starting that journey. When you or a loved one need help, go to recovery.com and take the first step towards recovery. To find the best treatment option for you or a loved one, again, go to recovery.com. And without further ado, let's get into it. Asher Gunsberg interviewing me. Let's have it.

Thank you for having me, Rich. It's amazing to be here in your home. It's a beautiful home up here in the wilds. Yeah, thanks. We love it. It's part of LA that no one thinks is LA, but it's LA. It is. The mountains. I actually lived in LA for many years before I even knew this area existed.

It's quite the gem and still pretty undeveloped. And close enough to town where you can drive in. But when you're here, you feel like you're on vacation. You're the reason I know this place exists. Because when I first met you and I said, let's go for a run, you said, yeah, come out here and we'll go running through that park down the street. I'd never been out here.

I'd driven through here to get to Malibu when I lived in the valley to go surfing and stuff. But I just fanged straight past, never even looked to either side. Yeah, you drive right past Malibu Creek State Park. You have no idea what's in there. We go in there running the other day and you're like, you're thinking, why isn't everybody up here? It's so magical and amazing.

If you're coming to Los Angeles, it's absolutely worth the day trip out here to go for a bit of a walk. It's true wilderness out here, which is amazing in any kind of civilized world or civilized society to find actual wilderness still around. It's easy to throw barbs at LA and make fun of it. Most people, including myself, like I just said, who lived here for a long time before I knew this existed, I mean, your experience of LA is flying into LAX, which is like the world's worst airport. Descending through the airborne mud cloud.

Yeah. And then renting your car, getting in your car, and driving on Lincoln Boulevard or Sepulveda, Pico Boulevard, and going, yeah, this is lousy. I used to tell people, I used to tell people, what's LA like? And I'm like, you know, in Australia, when you drive away from the airport and you leave the part of the city that looks like, oh yeah, this is near the airport.

And then you arrive where you're going, it looks totally different. LA never changes. It all looks like it's by the airport. It's basically a gradual extension of LAX, right? It is. I'm like, I've been traveling a lot more than I have in many years and been in a lot of airports over the last year. And it's always shocking to me how poorly represented Los Angeles is with its airport.

I'm like, what are we in? I mean, literally, you feel like you're in some sub-Saharan country or something. It's not that bad. It'saran country. It's not that bad. It's pretty bad. It's not that bad. Well, and it's always under construction, so you think the improvements are right around the corner. But I've lived here for, I don't know, 15, 16 years,

and it doesn't seem to have changed too much. Never, ever. It's good that you're flying so much because you're putting the word out about the book, aren't you? I'm trying. I'm trying. Yeah. Good man, which is why you asked me here today i like that how you popped the question you waited till we were at about i don't know two and a half thousand feet up above sea level my heart's about

to blow out of my chest hey man i've got to do this thing and my publisher wants me to get interviewed man it was not a premeditated thing it just occurred to me because my publisher said you know why don't you find somebody to interview you for the podcast? And I was like, that seems kind of, you know, self-aggrandizing or whatever, but not that I'm against being so self-promotional. Um, but, uh, but yeah, you're, you know, you're the, it just occurred to me when we were running, I was like, oh, you know, you're the perfect guy to do it. You know, we're both plant-based and running, ultra running. You're training for an ultra right now.

You're wearing similar glasses and have similar hairdo and you're a professional radio and television guy. I mean, why didn't I think of that sooner? Well, honestly, mate, it's an absolute honor that you even asked me. I was so blown away that you even asked me. And you say, yeah,

it'd have to be today or tomorrow. I know, last minute. I've, you know, I always do my homework my homework as you can see i've done a lot of i know i'm impressed you've got a notebook out we don't need to do it we keep it loose and fast here you know that's okay i you know we have a i learned a very important lesson and i was on a i was on a snowboarding adventure with my youngest brother in japan and um we met an austral Australian guy called Saul. He was in his late 60s. And he told us on the back of one of those transfer buses, he goes, I always remember the six Ps. What are the six Ps, Saul?

Prior preparation prevents piss poor performance. I like that. That's definitely going in the show notes for this episode. And then there's the five Ds. What's that? Don't dither or delay, decide or delegate i like that yeah and he told and both of us just like whoa yeah it's either it's it's good but it's also a little cheesy too it's sort of like what you would hear at some self-improvement well that's what he said

he's like he said boys that's the first year of business school right there don't even worry about it it's i've taken care of you you're fine so and he's right so but i always i always people used to ask me if i would get nervous before i interviewed this person or that person i'd never get nervous because i always prepare so i always do your homework yeah absolutely so um well first of all you're talking about uh you know oh thanks for asking me to do this it's an honor and whatever but you just got back from vegas interviewing the guys from hangover three so this is this is, this is a, this is a, this is a,

this is a, this is a, this is a, this is a, this is a, this is a, this is a, this is a,

this is a, this is a, this is a, this is a, quite the consolation prize. I disagree. That's, I mean,

what is that? What's that like? You know, you interview Zach and my friend Alicia says it's, um, it's speed dating with cameras. Yeah. Yeah.

How long are those interviews? God, we have now already spoken the length of three of them, right? Yeah. They're sure. I mean, do you try to bring something different to that as much as you can spice it up a little

bit? As much as you can. You got to try. It must just be glassy eyed and they are like please just let's just get through this yeah every time you see and we talk to uh and we talk to owen wilson about his latest film and there's owen going yeah you know and there's a like a generic kind of person nodding at the answer to the question that's right i'm the guy you're the guy that with the poster and there's a poster of the movie exactly that's exactly right and this is the problem with media and this is why podcasts are so great you can smash it out yeah yeah i mean it's

and i think people are hungry for that you know they're just they're taught so it's i mean those shows entertainment tonight all the evening shows you know the late night talk shows and all of that are are hugely popular but like is anybody ever really satisfied with what anybody's you know as you go on hey tell me about your vacation it serves a purpose though all that stuff serves a purpose if it didn't do you think people are aware that the only reason those celebrities go on those shows though is when they have a movie coming out i mean i think a lot of people but i think a lot of people aren't even completely aware of that. We're not doing anything that different than that.

I've worked in media a long time. It was my 20th, 21st year or something in broadcasting. And people just want to, at the end of the day, they want to sit down and escape from their terrible boss or the kid that's annoying them and go, oh, Angelina jolie had her boobs done again hey honey did you hear that and they get to talk about something that isn't right the phone bill for a while yeah and i get that man you know you know and that's it i'm not above

that that's what it's there for um but you asked me because you want me to interview you yeah well we could do whatever all right but i because here's the thing i've read your book i know you have listened to a bunch of your podcasts not all of them so if i cover anything that you've already covered please all right please let me know i think i've probably caught about 60 to 70 percent of them maybe more i've missed a missed a few that's pretty loyal but i pretty much go you're in there you get updated i go richard's got another one i live in venice i sit in my car a lot i drive a lot i listen to a lot of podcasts that's the other thing you know just i i don't listen to i've got a satellite radio in my car i don't even listen to it anymore i do too i just

listen to podcast it's like you just program your own i have literally like you know 45 hours worth of content always on hand talking about why would i turn the radio on and i've exactly and his i've had a career in radio since 1994 and I just, only just stopped five months ago and like, how the hell can a radio station

compete with curated content that someone has put, designed exactly for themselves, their own playlist of things that exactly they are interested in

and want to hear in the palm of their hand. And everybody has a mobile device so I'm actually shocked that podcasting isn't more, I mean, it's growing, obviously, but isn't more popular than it is.

I mean, there's a lot of people that are like, what? The way it streams over the air right now, like Spotify, it streams MP3 over the air. Or if you're on unlimited data plan here in the States, you can get your podcasts over the air. That'll be a widget in your dashboard before long. Yeah.

And it won't be the iTunes store. It'll be a widget, like an app on your dashboard. You just touch that screen and there's a Rich Roll podcast. It's updated again when you want to listen to it. Well, the iTunes, or there's a podcasting app for the iPhone now that does that. Like I used to have to download them on my desktop and then sync my phone

and make sure that they were all updated but now they just stream through that app on my iPhone. Well, like you said, you asked me to interview you because you got the paperback coming out. Congratulations, that's a big step. Thank you. And so I put together a bunch of questions

because I've read your book and you're a very interesting man. You cover a lot in your book. And I guess the first question that I really want to ask you is, where do you get your protein from? I'm so glad that we have a professional in the house. You're just coming right out of the gate with the question that I never get asked. Follow up. Um, but don't you miss bacon? Yeah, exactly. You know,

what's really funny about that is, um, today, uh, uh, Rip Esselstyn who wrote the engine to diet just came out with a brand new book called my beef with meat came out yesterday. And so's in new york right now doing the talk show circuit and he was on one of those morning shows today like cbs this morning or whatever that and uh and and it was uh and uh the person who does his twitter tweeted it she's like oh i gotta see this and you know he's sitting there and it's charlie rose and whoever all the other hosts are on that show and he's there to talk about his new book first question where do you get your protein you know but he he was johnny on the spot with it it's like he's been doing this forever and still it's the first question everybody which is the biggest and that's that's what is really interesting about your story and and why i think so many people are drawn to you and when i tell people

i know this guy he does this they go he did what. And when I tell people, I know this guy, he does this, they go, he did what? On plants? When I tell them about your finishing Ultraman twice, not even just competing it, but finishing the damn thing, that really blows all that out of the water. And the fact that you are who you are and you are able to talk intelligently also helps in that. Sometimes. you know intelligently um also helps in that sometimes um that people kind of the the

stereotype of the the skinny weak vegan goes out of the way so i guess the the question the first question that i really actually didn't want to ask you sorry it's um um i've we're here at your home your beautiful home and um i've just been, for the last week, I've had a mate stay on my couch out in Venice, and he's Texan. He calls himself, he's a gentleman rancher. Rancher, sorry. I put the R on the end. And I've been feeding him green smoothies every morning.

But I took him grocery shopping, and he asked me the question, do you think it's more expensive to eat the way you eat being vegan you know you like to say plant-based i appreciate that um so do you think it's cheaper to eat um a regular american meat and potatoes diet versus a plant-based diet and i'm a single guy living by myself you're a father with a wife of four children right so i guess my first that's my first question is like that's a concern for a lot of people i guess yeah it is it's a valid it's a valid concern and uh the i guess the the quick answer is it can be a lot more expensive to eat plant-based uh so you have to be a little bit more judicious and careful and do a little bit more homework about where you're sourcing your foods.

If you're going to go to Whole Foods and try to buy everything that you need for your kitchen at Whole Foods, it's going to be a hell of a lot more expensive than going to Taco Bell every day. But just like Whole Foods is a chain of stores. It's like a supermarket that stocks organic and grown in in beds of organic grass-fed horse manure and right it's very high-end and it's very uh overpriced

often the joke is it's called a whole paycheck that's what you call it here um and uh and so yeah if you're gonna if you're gonna be trying to buy all your foods there, it is going to be a lot more expensive. But there are many, many ways of circumventing that. And we've actually found that it ends up being about the same, if not cheaper, if you're just a little bit more aware of what you're doing. So, for example, in the United States, there's a chain of grocery stores called Trader Joe's. So we get a lot of our stuff there. Not everything, like the produce isn't always so good there. grocery store is called trader joe's so we get a lot of our stuff there um not everything like the produce isn't always so good there but there's a lot of staples that we can get there that are it's it's pretty darn cheap and when you say when you say staples because people always ask me it's

like what do you what do you eat because they right it's so beyond their paradigm of i get up in the morning i have cereal and i put milk in it and then if i'm hungry in between i make toast and then i have a burger or something for lunch. So in terms of what we eat, well, basically lots of produce, fresh vegetables, fresh fruit, whole grains, legumes, seeds, and nuts. And that's basically all you're exempting is a lot of processed crap that everybody knows is bad for them. And then the meat and dairy products, right? And the meat products can be quite expensive, right? So you're eliminating those right off the top. So you're not buying ribeyes and all sorts of things that can jack up, you know,

you know, the cash register. So, and there are ways of getting produce relatively cheaply, right? Like Trader Joe's doesn't always have the best produce, but lots of farmer's markets have co-op programs where you can get stuff

pretty cheaply. There's lots of little markets peppered around Los Angeles. Like there's one called Viarda in the Deep Valley. You can go there. I mean,

literally you can fill your entire shopping cart for like 25 bucks we do we do live in a unique part of the world right and not everybody has that no no so and i'm i'm empathetic to that i'm not i'm not you know i'm not unaware that um we're quite luckily lucky living where we live but um a lot of when you say staples like for example brown rice or black beans and kidney beans i mean you can buy these things in bulk

incredibly cheaply. And when they, they can provide the base of a million different dishes that you make. So, you know, maybe once or twice a week, my wife and I, and when I say that, I mean, my wife will cook up like, you know, a lot of black beans and a lot of rice. And then we store it, you know, we can make soups out of that know we can make soups out of that we can make stews out of that we can make veggie burritos and we always have plenty of food on tap and literally you can buy a giant pound you know bag of rice or beans for like pennies almost right so when that's providing kind of the base of a lot of your dishes it becomes pretty inexpensive really i mean if you're if you're going to buy organic produce at Whole Foods

and you're going to juice it all or you're going through a ridiculous amount of produce, like that's going to add up fast. So it's just about making smart choices and dialing it in. But in terms of variety and staples, like there's more available than you might imagine and it doesn't have to be bland or boring. I guess the follow-up question that I had to that

was I started to wonder this might be, you know, we don't have to get the freakonomics guys in but if you calculated over the course of your life until like as as a man in in your maybe your 60s how much money you spend on your groceries every week and then put on top of that the angioplasty and the stent that you got put in of course which rates from and i looked at it today because i knew i was coming to see you so i researched it it's like in america it's anywhere between 25 000 to 100 000 dollars to get that stent put in right and that just and that's just back to poor diet and that's normal operating procedure for a middle-aged guy these days unfortunately if you could save yourself that, I wonder which is cheaper.

That's the other thing. What's cheaper is getting the stent put in when you're in your 60s or spending a little more money on healthier food through your life and then having that money to go and buy your kids a college education. Right, exactly. I mean, the sky's the limit with healthcare costs the way they are right now and things that aren't covered by insurance and how high the deductibles are. We're getting sicker and sicker and sicker

and more obese and more congenital disease and heart disease rates are through the roof. I mean, it's ridiculous, right? So the freakonomics argument is very powerful. And if you balance all of that out, you're definitely gonna save money eating a plant-based diet. The problem with that for a lot of people is that's not inspiring or motivating. Yeah. It's not now. And it's like,

well, I want to go to in and out right now. Like I'll worry about the stent later. You know, it's like people don't, that's not how people are wired. I'm not really wired like that. I mean, in my experience, pain is the true motivator to get people to change. And that's what made me change because I was in enough pain where I was willing to roll up my sleeves and get uncomfortable and do something that at the time I didn't necessarily want to do or believe that it would really impact my life that much. And it's been an amazing journey. But I often ask myself, well, would you have just done this anyway? If somebody said, hey, you're going to have a lot of healthcare costs coming up, you better straighten out. I go, yeah, yeah, yeah.

So it's hard. As humans, we're just not. We're not. No, psychologically, we're not wired that way. So if Stephen Dubner is listening, let's go out and do that, please. If Stephen Dubner's listening, we should go out and do that, please. Now, I got here early and I got to watch your kids, both your, you've got four children,

and I watched both of your daughters make their afternoon snacks. Now, anyone with kids, I don't have any kids myself, but all my mates have got kids, and getting any kind of vegetable into your child should be an olympic sport um what is it like you know because that just even like just explaining what i just saw these two girls make for themselves what did they make i'm afraid to ask oh one of them made herself the most amazing burger she made it in the oven the older one right now she made herself a burger in the oven with a roast she roasted a mushroom oh like a portobello burger yeah lettuce and tomato and she roasted a bun and like versus coming home

opening a pop tart throwing it in the toaster right like parents listening to this would probably be like if only i get my kids to do that like is that is that because that's just all i've known and when they go to their friends houses what's the pressure like for your kids because you raise your kids vegan as well we yeah i mean to say we raise them vegan is a little bit sorry i gotta stop saying vegan it's to say you raise your kids like you on a plant-based diet well no but even that is slightly inaccurate because it's been a kind of an evolving thing you know and uh first of all i'm really glad really glad that Mathis made her own portobello burger. It might be really hungry, Rich. She's nine, so that's pretty cool.

And I know, you know, my 18-year-old Tyler comes down in the morning and makes his kale smoothie on his own accord. And it's kind of amazing. You know, I take it for granted now and it's just normal, but it is amazing. And it didn't happen overnight. I mean, you know, I've been doing this for six years and prior to that, it was, you know, it was whatever. Right. Um, but I think the most important thing from a parenting perspective, uh, unfortunately is you got to walk your walk. You know, you can't expect your kids to make a healthy choice. Um, if you're not making that choice as well, and kids are smart, like if you're sneaking off and waking up in the middle of the night to go eat ice cream, they know, they know what's up, you know?

So, um, you have to do it yourself and lead by example. And, you know, several years later, they may or may not take a tip from that. But what we've done is, um, you know, the reason I kind of like, I didn't cringe, but I was like, I had a reaction to you saying, you know, you're raising your kids plant-based because we're not raising them with any agenda really. We're just like, Hey, we're filling our house with healthy foods and come to the, come to the market with us and help us pick them out. And we involve them. You know, we, we treat them like grownups, I guess, and to some degree with respect to this and give them respect and say, here's why we're getting these foods, help us get this. What kind of this would you like?

You know, and we, we set certain parameters around that, but we, they're participating, you know, and then we bring it home. They help us put it away. They help us decide what we're going to make for dinner. And then, you know, Julie likes to play around and come up with new recipes. So she'll have Mathis or Tyler or Trevor like, hey, you know, what if we put this in here? I wonder how that would taste. And so they develop an emotional attachment to where their food is coming from, how it's prepared and what they're eating. And, you know, they've seen the changes that have happened with me. They've seen, you know, what's happened with with their mom like really kind of taking on this mantle of of really learning how to be a vegan chef which she's not trained to do but she's really kind of discovered and fallen in love with

and um and not setting any rules around it you know so you know if math is the nine-year-old who went and made the portobello burger she goes over to her friend's house or a birthday party and they have cake or pizza, she's welcome to eat that. And I'm not going to judge her or have any problem with that. The point is we try to educate so that they can make the best, most informed decision for their self. And by not creating a rule around it, then you remove that thing to rebel against. So there's no emotional energy around the choice. You know what I mean? It's just like, hey, you know, we're trying to do the right thing.

Do the best you can. We're humans. Nobody's going to be perfect around it. And I think when parents crack down on kids, that creates kind of an FU mentality when they get older. And what about, because one of my best mates, Simone, down in Australia, she has three daughters. She went and she became a vegan nutritionist.

She raises her kids vegan. And I'm pretty sure that would be the same thing here in America in that other parents are, you know, really awesome. Having kids is great because you just get all these heaps of free advice from other people about how to do it. Unsolicited. Yeah, what are other parents' reactions? Oh, sure.

Let me tell you. Yeah, yeah. You kid has to be eating cheese. Their bones are going to break the first time they catch a football. Like do other parents give you the stinky eye or do you not mix in those circles or what's other parents' reactions when they see? Because it's fair enough, like everyone's like, hear the story like, oh yeah, my 14-year-old,

she started listening to punk music and stopped eating meat. Yeah, yeah. But a younger kid, like a kid kid, some of those kids, the youngest one's 11 weeks and there's one, I think, six, seven and the other one's about four, I think. You know, when you've got a kid like that. Right.

It's a big responsibility, and every parent wants to make sure they're doing best by their child and making the right decision. They'll only too happily tell another parent what they're doing wrong. Of course. And there's a fear-based program around that too, because it's sort of like, all right, well, I know if I kind of feed them what everyone else is feeding them,

that things will be probably okay, right? But if I'm going to go outside the norm and do this thing that, that, uh, you know, is potentially dicey, is that right? And of course you're gonna, you're gonna get judgment for that. Um, you know, now, you know, we don't really get it to our face really. You know, if people are talking behind our back, you know, conceivable, I'm sure that's going on. I'm not aware of it. All I know is that my kids are healthy and happy and seem to be doing fine. And as a parent, we need to make sure they're getting their B12 and their vitamin D and all of that. And we do that. But other than that, they're all growing and developing mentally and

physically and it's all fine. But I think the thing is – But you're really careful about it. You don't just feed them salad. I mean, I used to – No, no, no. I did Idol in Australia. I was the host of the Australian version of Idol, which is called Australian Idol.

It's called American Idol here. It's called Malaysian Idol there. Right. And people knew I was vegan, and they would come up to me and go – I can't even tell you how many times it happened, Rich, when people would be like, oh yeah, I used to be vegan and then my hair fell out or I was vegan and then one of my kidneys fell.

Right. Yeah, because you weren't smart and you didn't eat right. You can't just eat salad. You can be unhealthy on a vegan diet. Just to say I'm eating a vegan diet, first of all, I don't even know what that means. That can mean many, many things. It can mean something that's very healthy. It can mean something

that's very unhealthy. Uh, so just to say that, um, I don't have enough information. And when, you know, when people say things like that to me, you know, my question is, well, let's, let me find out what exactly you were eating, you know, and then, and we'll figure out what went, what went wrong. I mean, you could be a, I mean, now more than ever, you can be a crazy junk food vegan with all the processed kind of stuff they have that's non-dairy and non-animal and all the fake meats and cheeses and all that. I mean, if you go eat, I love veggie grill, but if you go there every day and eat the buffalo wings with the non-dairy ranch sauce, you're not going to be doing too good after a while i think but they taste so good they do and they're and so people say to me like do you cheat you know do you cheat

on your vegan diet and it's like i don't cheat but if i like i consider having the buffalo wings at veggie grill kind of cheating you know because that's not a whole food plant-based diet that's like a processed vegan food and you can trick yourself into thinking, well, it's vegan, it's great. You know, so it's not, what's the problem? And I think that's where people get into trouble because it's a very, you know, you can eat, it's about nutrition, nutrient density.

You know, so you're eating foods that are very nutrient poor, but calorie high, regardless of whether they have dairy or animal products in them, you know, you're not gonna be heading in a good direction. I have one more question about food and then I don't want to move on um but there was one thing in your book that really completely blew my mind about the microbes in your gut driving the cravings these are the things that aren't you these are the bacteria that live inside you that are right that are not you they're the little individual organisms that we play host to right drive our food cravings and that completely freaked me out

because i know you've said it and i'm grateful you credit me every time but yet i had a window diet for a long time whereas if i could drive up to the window i would eat food out of it and it was amazing it would be 90 minutes to two hours after eating it that I would be searching the side of the road for another Kentucky or Burger King or whatever. Right. I was 21 or 22. I didn't know any better. Your impulses have been hijacked.

But now all I want is kale. Yeah, I know, right? Because you have a different microbial ecology in your gut. So this is the thing. Like people go, I would be vegan, but I can't give up my cheese. I love my dairy. Is that just a case of changing? I think there's two things going on with that.

First of all, it's kind of a – the first part of that for me is an interesting kind of spiritual rabbit hole because when you say, like, I just can't give up my cheese, like, well, what is that? What are you saying? Well, what you're doing is you're telling a story, and you're affirming that story by repeating it. And by repeating it enough, it becomes true. This is the story that you've created for yourself.

And in some respect, there's an identity formed around that, and that becomes cemented, even if it has no bearing in reality. So you have the power to change that story if you want. That doesn't have to be your story. You can start to affirm something else and watch your life move in a different direction. The second part of it is the microbial thing. And that's like, it's a crazy, crazy story. And I started to learn about this. I talk about it in the book.

crazy story and and i started to learn about this i talk about it in the book um my buddy compton rom who i've he he recently moved to salt lake but i've got to have this guy in the podcast because he's just a mind blower like he knows so much he's a he's a he's a phd in microbiology and was a research doctor for a long time. Uh, and he started a, uh, a holistic nutrition company called ascended health. He moved to salt, he moved to salt Lake to kind of start, you know, building it. Um, and he used to live down the street. And when I started training for ultra mans, like he was a friend and he's like, he, he wanted to use me as like his, his Guinea pig. Like, cause he was trying all these crazy potions. He's like, I want you to drink this and see how it makes you feel and perform. And I go over to his house, um, just down the way

and I go into his kitchen and, uh, and it looked like I'd walk in and they're just test tubes all over the place on the Island in the kitchen. I was like, this looks like a meth lab in here. Like what are you doing? You know? And he'd have crazy green potions boiling on the, it's all food. I know.'s like oh it's awesome i just came up with this new resveratrol turmeric you know potion you got to try this and and uh and he started experimenting with um i'll get to your answering your question but this is a funny story so he started experimenting with using lasers to kind of repair muscle damage you know like the the sort of lead red lasers that you see um you know for pointers and things like that so he became very interested in that and somehow he

found a way to order like a dozen or two dozen of these super high powered lasers that were manufactured by a defense contractor to be used as, um, on, uh, on sniper rifles as like the scope, you know, where, you know, the red,

you see in the movie, like the red dot or whatever. He's like, and he got them shipped it to his house and he's like, check it out. And he would like beam it up on a cloudy night and you could, it would go all the way up to the cloud. Like he's like,

it has like a five kilometer range on it or some crazy distance. Like they were so powerful. And he's like, but they're awesome. You beam them on you. Like if your knee is hurting, you kind of use it on your knee and it helps. Um, it's like, it creates like a, an immune system response that helps you, uh, sort of repair your body more quickly. And so he's experimenting with all these things. And I'm like, all right, dude, you realize like you're on some crazy Homeland Security list right now. Like you've ordered over the internet, like these high powered, like, you know, lasers that are used for sniper rifles.

You're going to get a knock on the door and these feds are going to walk in and they're going to see all this shit on in your kitchen. You're going to, you're headed for Guantanamo, man. We're never going to see you again. But anyway, he, he, uh, so he knows everything there is to know about microbes, and he was the first one who started to kind of educate me about this. And he's convinced, and I believe in him because I know his background, that microbes basically dictate our health.

And you're seeing more and more research coming out all the time. Like there was the recent thing about the effect of meat on, I think it was heart disease. A bunch of research studies came out recently, and it had to do with the gut bacteria that are the result of eating those kind of animal products that was having the deleterious effects on health. And I think there's a book that just came out to,

I can't remember it right now, but I'll put it in the show notes, about this relationship between your microbial ecology and your gut and your wellness. And essentially, it's a short section in the book, but I kind of describe it as, you know, we think we're sentient beings, right? That we have power over our thoughts. We're made up of cells, and those cells make up our organs and our systems and ultimately who we are. But really, we're more microbe than human.

we're more microbe than human. We have 10 times the number of microbial single-celled entities in our gut alone compared to all of our cells, something like a trillion microbes in our gut. And there's evidence to suggest that these microbes somehow, in some totally bizarre way can impact our nervous system in a way that triggers our cravings. So for example, you eat McDonald's food and that food has a certain microbial ecology built into it. And you eat it and it starts to populate in your gut, right? And then that starts to take over. The more you eat McDonald's, the more of those kind of microbes are in there and then those microbes they need more of that particular kind of food to live right so they're they're triggering your nervous system to say we need more of that we need more of that and then that starts to take over and suddenly you're driving around going i never ate mcdonald's for five years i had it the other day

and now i want it again and i want why do I want it again. And why do I want it again? You know, like that craving impulse starts to take over. And it sounds wacky and like new agey and all that kind of stuff, but a great example is in the documentary Supersize Me. So Morgan Spurlock starts to eat McDonald's first couple days. He's like having a hard time getting it down. He's in the car, like he's on day two or whatever. And he throws up out the window, like he just can't handle it. Right. And then like two weeks, two and a half weeks or something like that later,

he wakes up, he feels horrible. Like he's got headaches. He can't function properly. Then he goes to McDonald's and eats McDonald's feels great. He's like, I feel awesome now. Like why is that? You know, it's like this relationship, this addictive relationship that starts to take over. It's sort of like, you know, if you're a heroin user and, you know, the first time you use heroin, you're gonna get sick, right?

But then you're gonna feel sick until you get it. It's a similar kind of thing. So say, for example, someone's listening to this and they're like, you know, that's, I mean, that certainly describes my relationship with fast food when I was in my late teens and early 20s. How long does it take for that biology to change inside your gut if you started to change your diet slowly?

I can't say exactly. I think it's probably an individual thing, but I think it starts, it begins immediately upon the introduction of a different kind of food. So yeah, I mean, to sort of follow up and answer the question completely you start eating healthier foods they they they there's a different microbial ecology that feeds on those kind of foods start eating more of that you start to crave it so you know you never thought you liked kale before now you're like i need that kale shake you know you will your cravings will change and that and then

you know getting back to the spiritual part of it that story that you tell like i need this or i need this to live or feel good or whatever will begin to shift so for a lot of for a lot of people though, the idea to go plant-based is as if you're asking them to run Ultraman. They may as well run a three-day event with a double marathon at the end of it as change their entire diet because it's all they've ever known. So it's all like with any training or with any change in your life, it's incremental. So if someone's listening and they're like, this is a really inspiring story. If only I could, I don't know where to start. What's like, you know, what's the small step?

What's the thing like today, right now, when they put this podcast off that they can possibly do? Right, for the plant curious. For the plant curious. I like what you're saying. I mean, first of all, I'm not telling anybody what to do or not do. Like I'm just trying to share my experience, but understand what you're saying yeah like for example um i was in brisbane and uh in australia the other week and we were going to go run um me and dan mac were

going to run the noosa half and i talked to my brother's girlfriend i said well you run why don't you come there's a 5k on the same day. She's like, oh, I can't do 5K. Like it was as if I was asking her to run a marathon. Right. Like you run, you run. She runs all the time. But like it was as in her mind, they were the same thing. A 5K, which is for me.

It's relative. Yeah. That. Yeah. For her, it was just as insurmountable. Whereas for asking someone to change their entire diet, everything they know in their fridge, the fact that they can shop with their eyes shut because they know exactly what

they've always bought every shopping list is the same for decades on end suddenly it's this insurmountable thing to try and conceive i think the biggest thing if if somebody could just try one thing um to begin to shift it's having a green smoothie in the morning, you know, rather than pancakes or oatmeal or whatever. If you just made that one change and like blended kale and spinach with some pineapple or some berries or, you know, an orange banana, whatever it is, like some vegetables, dark leafy greens and some fruit, and you started your day with that every day, that's huge, you know? And I think that once you start doing that and you start to understand, you feel the relationship between what you're putting in your body and how you feel,

because it's undeniable. If you have a really good like Vitamix blended green juice in the morning or a juiced or whatever it is, you don't need like the super fancy blender or whatever, just do the best you can with what you have. And you start to eat those, start your day eating those kinds of foods and monitor how you feel an hour later versus how you feel after eating waffles or something like that with, you know what I mean?

I go, oh man, you start to put it together and you're like, wow, I actually feel pretty good. Like I don't feel all heavy and groggy. you know maybe i can try something else now and it's starting starting to make those little incremental changes and paying attention to how you feel i think um is is massive and i think also uh yeah it's this idea of like oh well going plant-based that's too there's no way you know what i mean it's too hard or people try it they go they make it three four or five days and then they have a you know they go off the plan and go to in and out burger whatever oh it's too hard forget it you know it's not about that my ex-wife who never ate fast food her entire life grew up in israel her mom was with the

health and produce commission and so she was an incredibly healthy healthy woman um when she ate in an albergue for the first time i watched her eyes roll back in her head like it was the greatest thing she'd ever ever ever chewed on so there's got to be something right no there i don't know what they're putting in that you know i don't know but it's people fly yeah well it's sort of like that i keep talking about this so sorry if I'm repeating myself, but that new book that came out, Sugar, Salt, Fat or Salt, Sugar, Fat, whatever it is, talking about how these food companies are finding ways to put certain things in these foods that trigger the pleasure center and kind of activate that addictive response. You know, Julie's convinced that… This is your wife, Julie.

Yeah, my wife, Julie. Yeah, my wife, Julie. She's convinced that Starbucks is putting something in their coffee that is beyond, that's creating an extra added addictive response. Yeah, because she's like, I notice it. If I go to Coffee Bean or if I go to Pete's and I get my chai or something like that from another place, it doesn't feel the same. It's different. There's something about Starbucks. She's got this conspiracy theory that they're doing something in there that is like you know creating that like need and drive to go

back there but getting back to your question i mean it's about letting go of this perception or perfection ideal you know what i mean like it's not about being perfect it's not about adhering to you know some kind of idealized diet, you set yourself up to fail. We're human beings, we're fallible, we're going to fail. And when it comes to food, my goodness, it's a challenge for all of us. So it's just about making more informed, educated choices and moving in a right direction

and kind of giving yourself permission to fail once in a while and being okay with that so that you can kind of you know it doesn't like knock you out of the game yeah and i think just your fitness career and like listen to the people that you've had on this podcast is absolutely there's no shadow of a doubt that eating this way is enormously beneficial to like not necessarily going to go out and do ultra fitness but any kind of right uh any kind of sport um i did want to ask who's the um who's the female rich role who's the who's the who's the female plant-based ultra athlete who's the because it seems like it's it's all there's a lot of dudes there's a lot of dudes dudes doing this plant-based. Kind of advocacy or whatever.

Advocacy, yeah. Who's the female rich woman? Who's the athlete you mean? Would it be Venus Williams, do you think? Possibly, yeah. I mean, they're still kind of relatively new to it. There's an Ironman athlete who also has done Ultraman named Hilary Biscay, who's amazing.

She's an incredible triathlete, super talented. She's won Ironman, like a big Ironman race before, and she just kills it out there. And she's plant-based. There aren't as many, well, there aren't as many, I don't know. I think that there's something, I think there are plenty of plant-based women out there. It's much, you know, like I just had Lisa Fallon-Mindel on the other day, and she's killing it in age group triathlon races and you know is on the podium and all of that vegan um and she's a wellness coach and you know there's plenty of people out there like that i think that that a plant-based diet is an easier thing for a woman to kind of maneuver

into and maybe there's not the sort of feeling of the pressure to evangelize like maybe it is for the guys because it's so out of the masculine box for a guy to like do that and be an athlete that it's almost like you feel compelled to go oh my god who would have thought like you guys should check this out like you know there's a different way of doing this. Which I did want to talk about as well. I think the first time I met you, we were at one of your book talks. And that was the question I asked. I'm like, what are your thoughts on emasculating the male vegan or the guy who's on a plant-based diet? I know you had one of my favorite – I know it sounds like I'm pumping

your tires, man, but one of the favorite i know it sounds like i'm pumping your tires man but one of the podcasts i listen to uh that i really like actually you and james lightning wilkes um when he talks about don't mistake my kindness for weakness don't mistake my compassion for weakness right um the guy's an mma death machine right yeah yeah yeah exactly and uh in australia i actually i was talking about it on another podcast down in Australia. There's a commercial where a guy goes to the fridge and he pulls out one of those, you know, like little box breakfast juices and he sips it and he goes, makes this icky face.

And in one version, his girlfriend comes in and the other version, his wife comes in and sees him make an icky face and goes, you're making that face because we're going to my mother's mother's house how dare you and like just goes to town and just totally emasculates him and tears shreds off him in the kitchen and then the logo comes on don't make soy face have a real dairy drink right and it's like there's no shortage of commercials like that they're coming out like all the time there was one for like schick razors that i i tweeted about it recently it was on it was online and it was it made some similar kind of crack

about like what it means to be a man and you know we just were constantly um reinforcing this ridiculous stereotype and it goes back to you know the beginning of man, when man was the one who went out and slayed the beast and brought it back. And that was what was your job. And you weren't a man unless you could provide in that way. And we don't live in that world anymore. And that doesn't necessarily need to be the way that we define ourselves. And I think James's quote is profound. I mean, do you watch Game of Thrones?

Love it. All right. So look at the way young King Joffrey rules. think James's quote is profound. I mean, do you watch Game of Thrones? Love it. All right. So look at the way young King Joffrey rules. So his idea of being a man is to just be as aggressive and brutal as possible. And he feels like he is affirming his masculinity in that regard, but it's backfiring on him completely. He doesn't have the respect of anybody who knows what's going on. And the true strong king is the king that understands restraint and compassion. And there's something inherently very masculine about that, you know, when to hold back and how to hold back and when you show kindness. And I think that's interesting, you know,

and I don't think it's talked about enough and you know i mean let's face it since when is it why is it considered manly to go down to the ralph supermarket or the kroger or the whatever buy your chuck roast bring it back and put it on the barbecue in the in the backyard like i don't understand what's you know that's that's the manly thing to do but again that's a story we tell ourselves that we reaffirm that really is kind of absurd but it's totally totally supported by all of the marketing around it when i first when i first shifted my diet and i started to come out of this haze of just eating i guess i want to say it differently but it's exactly what i was eating what i was told to

right by the billboards and the magazines and the television commercials and the radio commercials once i came out of that i had a look at like it's almost inescapable this diet that's marketed to the you know western civilization like this is what you should eat you have to have this in the morning you have to have this at lunch you have to have this at dinner and here's an easier cheaper version and here's a version where you know you can drive up to a window and get it. Do you think we're far away from seeing that kind of marketing for a healthier way of living? I think that those marketing messages are incredibly powerful

and they're backed by very well-funded corporate interests that have very vested interests in keeping us thinking and eating this way there's a lot at stake right but i think that things are changing you know i'm optimistic and hopeful uh you know five years ago the idea of eating plant-based wasn't where it is now. You know, you have people like President Clinton espousing the virtues of doing this. And every day somebody new and interesting is talking about it. And it's part of the public discourse in a way that it never has been before. And it's really not the provenance of the marginalized hippie anymore, not the provenance of the marginalized hippie anymore like it always has been and you know that's the stereotype that i brought to it um you know thinking about like oh well if you're going

to be vegan you're the guy who's following the grateful dead around with it you know like with the dreadlocks and the hacky sack and it's like that's not my trip man i'm never going to do that you carry a vhs of atrocities at a chicken farm with you at all times exactly you know like i am not going to be that guy. So if I'm going to, I'm never going to eat that way because I don't want to have anything to do with that, you know,

that image, you know? And so it's about changing the dialogue to free ourselves from that definition, which I think, you know, is why plant-based is a better term because it's more neutral and it's not a politically charged term.

It's more accessible for people. Plant power has its own kind of masculine connotation, which is why I like it. And just, you know, I was talking about Rip Esselstyn's new book, My Beef With Meat, which just came out yesterday. It's a couple hours ago. It was number 13 on Amazon in all books. And I'm sure by the end of today or tomorrow, it'll be in the top 10. That's every book on Amazon, right? Every book. So that tells me that this is gaining steam. So I've got it written here at the top of this page.

Why now? Why now? Why? Yeah. I've been eating this way when people when i tell people i've been vegan for over 10 years they're like oh oh so you're not just doing it because it's it's fashionable right today or because you saw someone do it on on the view you're like no i've been there's a long time right why now why now? Why now? It's almost like a Malcolm Gladwell question. Like a tipping point? It's like a tipping point thing, right?

Like, it's taken this long for enough people to kind of congeal around this concept and for the information flow and the ideas to spread kind of organically and virally. you know, Rip Esselstyn's father, Dr. Caldwell Esselstyn, started treating cardiac patients with a plant-based diet back in the 1970s. It was anathema. He ended up losing his job at the Cleveland Clinic. And like, he's been shouting from the mountaintops since then about, you know, basically his message then is exactly what it is now. And it took like forks over knives and all these sort of books and documentaries to come out to now where he's finally sort of being taken seriously and vindicated in a way. It took that long. So things take time. It takes time for people to acclimate to new ideas and you see it, but now it really is becoming pervasive. I mean, we live in Los Angeles, so it's like every other restaurant now is vegan

or offers vegan options, so we're spoiled in that regard. But it's cropping up more and more and more. And I think Forks Over Knives actually had a lot to do with that documentary. I wonder what, because in Australia, we have a very different healthcare system. We have socialized medicine, and despite what many people's televisions tell them,

it doesn't turn you into Russia. Everything's actually kind of okay. I was just in Canada a couple of weeks ago and they were telling me about it. And I was like, oh my God, I can't believe how good that sounds. It's pretty amazing. But what it does is it puts the onus of responsibility

for wellness kind of back on the people as a whole. And if you're going to get a lung transplant, my tax dollars are going to have to pay for it. So then that kind of switches it around. And then you start, I've noticed in Australia, you start to see first it was one quarter of an aisle at the supermarket where I would go and get, you know, like tofu and things like that.

And now there's an entire gluten-free aisle. All right? And it just goes on and on. It's just like getting bigger and bigger and bigger down there, kind of the awareness for eating kind of at least more. What does he say it? Consciously? Consciously.

Sid Garza-Hillman, the guy with the hat. Yeah. He talks about it. It's like just people eating just being aware and mindfully mindfully that's the word being mindful about what you're eating being mindful it's not just a piece of meat on a styrofoam tray right you know and so i just found i just found it kind of interesting that when i was just down there the other day that this will make no sense to you, but you can get vegan Tim Tams in Australia. What's a Tim Tam? Dude, someone please send Rich some vegan Tim Tams so I can make him do a vegan Tim Tam slam.

It's the greatest biscuit ever created by humans. All right, so don't answer that question. We'll just wait to receive it in the mail. It truly, truly is. Is that some kind of weird Vegemite no brother I was Vegemite speaking by the way yeah um I did want to ask you about training because I have gone for runs with you and if anyone ever gets the opportunity to go for a run with Rich just kind of keep it in the back of your mind yeah this guy just the first time I asked him what's your

best marathon time he goes I don know. I've never run one. Right. I've run a double. I've run a back-to-back and I've done it with a swim and a bike on the other side of it, but I've never just run one. I don't race that much. So we're pounding up this hill and I want to ask you this because I want to know what you do. When you're doing those enormous endurance events, when you're swimming for 10 kilometers and then getting off

and biking for another half a day or spending a whole day riding 200 miles, surely even you, you've got the chat, chat, chat in your head. Because even yesterday when you were asking me about where my heart rate is, the first time you asked me, I told you where it was. You're like, oh, you better slow down. From that point were asking me about where my heart rate is the first time you asked me i told you where it was you're like oh you better slow down from that point every time i saw that heart rate i didn't feel like i had to walk i felt completely fine but inside was like oh man i'm gonna have to stop and walk now because i had that trigger in my head like how do you overcome those negative thoughts especially when you're getting fatigued especially

when you're getting tired, what do you do? Because that's all it is. It's just a thought. It's not actually have anything to do with my body or how much energy I've got. Right. It's tricky. Like I wish I had like the magic bullet,

like canned answer to that, that could solve everybody's problems. Just tell me what you do when you're on the bike. I mean, I think that, I think what I'm on though is, whether it's a race or like a really long challenging training session um i try to get to like a state of no mind where it's like an active meditation where there's there's no to very little thought going on and that's a practice that's like a meditation it's like practicing meditation actively in the pursuit of training um and the more i can get into that space then time becomes very elastic right and as i progress the training volume up from you know a two-hour ride up to a 10 or 12 hour ride like when i'm really maxing out on training you know i've

gradually increased it so i've acclimated slowly to the volume so an eight hour ride like doesn't seem that long to me because it's that elastic nature of time um because time's weird you know it's like when you're really hurting you know a minute can seem like forever you know but if you can get into that kind of like fugue state where you have an elevated heart rate but it's you're fit enough to sustain it for a very long period of time it's like this weird pipe cleaner through your system where everything gets cleansed out and you're like this weird blank slate and you know something happened man something happened you had you had a dnf when your first marathon, the first Ironman. Oh, I did.

Well, I tried to run, yeah, I tried to run a marathon before Ultraman. Yeah, so it happened to you. You stopped. Something happened in your mind and you had to stop. And in my body. And in your body.

Well, this is what I'm saying. At some point, you were able to overcome that. And what was it that shifted? How did you get over that how did you switch from the guy that has to go oh no i'm gonna have to stop and walk even though everyone's come to see me and i've told everyone i'm gonna do this and there's so much expectation to the guy that goes you know what yes my knee hurts a bit but it's only a few more miles and i'm gonna be fine right preparation you know i took the training incredibly seriously, and I did everything in my training that I experienced everything in training that I would experience during the race.

So by the time I lined up for the first Ultraman, I knew that I could complete it because I'd done three race simulation weekends in the two months prior lead up. weekends in the two months, like sort of prior lead up. So the idea of running 52 miles on the third day, I'd run a 45 mile run, like so tired, I could barely get out of bed. So I knew I was ready and I knew I could do it. So when that moment came where it's like, I'm hurting, it's like, oh, well I was here, you know, six weeks before and I was able to push through. So I would like recollect those moments and draw on them for strength to say, oh, you remember when you felt like that before? So, you know, there's no shortcut to that experience and putting the work in, you know, like when I DNF that, when I DNF'd at Wildflower and when I DNF'd in that marathon, you know, before I hired a coach and started to learn

about training, you know, I didn't know what I was doing. I didn't have any experience and I hadn't trained properly to experience what to expect when I would kind of come across that in a race context. So, and I've heard you talking about this about, I don't know, because when you talked about it, I'm like, I do that too, the looping thoughts. Yeah. Do you replace the loop of this is going to hurt, this hurts a lot,

with the loop of I've been here before, I've been here before? I try. You know, I mean, you know, you do the best you can. I mean, it's negative thought patterns can be addictive. You know what I mean? And again, it goes back like this is the story I'm telling myself. This hurts, this hurts, this hurts. This is horrible.

When can I quit? When can I quit? And the more you kind of repeat that and cement that thought, then the more likely you are to quit, right? Irrespective of what your body's doing. So it's sort of but that's actually not true. And in my experience, it's not true. You can be aware of your thoughts, which by very definition means there's a distinction between your consciousness and your thinking mind, right? If you can sort of have a judgment on your thoughts somewhat simultaneously with having the thought, then that must be two different things going on right now, two different systems, right? So to recognize that thought for what it is and to make a decision

about how much power you're going to give it and to say, it's just a thought. I can choose, my higher self can choose to pay attention to that and to give it strength and power, or I can choose to dismiss it and replace it with a thought another thought pattern that will hopefully loop that will kind of point me more in the direction of the goal that i'm trying to achieve you've just uh launched a thousand prs right yeah i hope so no really because uh as the more i train the more i i go for you know doing marathons and then signing up for this ultra and to do this ultra the more that i realize for you know doing marathons and then signing up for this ultra and to do this ultra the more that i realize how much work i have to put into that aspect of my training

i have to not only do i have to work on you know doing the long runs then doing the intervals and things like that work on my nutrition i have to work on what happens between my ears absolutely really fatigued oh absolutely you know i say it all the time that, you know, one of the kind of guys that inspired me to do Ultraman in the beginning was this guy, David Goggins, amazing, incredible athlete, Navy SEAL, had been like a football player and a power lifter. and try the 10 hardest endurance challenges in the world to honor his fallen brethren, people who had lost their lives in overseas wars. And he had never been a runner or a triathlete. And then he threw himself into doing races like Badwater and Ultraman and did quite well,

despite not fitting the prototype at all, like not looking like a runner, not really training like a runner or a triathlete and just being an overall badass basically black ops head training exactly yeah like a laser focus right and he said uh he said um when you think you're done and cooked you've actually only accomplished about 40 percent of of what you're capable of. So, and it's a mental barrier. It's not the body. The body is not the limiter. It's the mind. And so when you go out and you're training to be aware of that, that you're not just training your body, you're also training your mind, you're training

your spirit and every workout has a purpose and you should be conscious of what you're doing. Like it's easy to just, oh, I have an hour. I'm going to go out and run and do that, you know, fuck off or whatever. But to go, all right, well, I have an hour, I'm going to go out and run, do that, you know, fuck off or whatever. But to go, all right, well, you know, what are some things that I can work on mentally? Like what are the things

that generally trip me up? What can I do differently? And it's like rebooting your operating system, you know. Lucky you, lucky we let all that time out on the trail. Since the hardcovers come out, it's, and this must have been such a thrill.

I don't even know how you would have been able to sleep at night when you found out that this book, I hope I got this right, it became part of the curriculum at a college and you went to go speak at that college? What was that experience like? Yeah, it was crazy. That was a crazy, cool experience. Well, I got asked to, from time to time, I get asked to go and speak.

And usually it's like a veg fest, you know, sort of like preaching to the choir, you know, to the converted, you know, like, and in the summertime, there are all these veg, every city's got one, you know, and you kind of go on tour and it's the same people that are speaking. I never have to pack traveling food when I go there

because then I'll just get something. Oh yeah, you go there and it's like all the food's there. It's awesome. Normally I'm taking bags of nuts and bananas. I'm taking all my food with me. And all the vendors are giving it to you and you get goodie bags and all that kind of stuff. Yeah, it's awesome.

I bring my own toothpick. But yeah, I got asked to come out to Charleston, South Carolina and speak at the College of Charleston. I was like, oh, cool. The first, like I've never spoke at a college before. That's pretty cool. And what I didn't find out until like just before I was going there was that they'd put my book on the freshman curriculum. It's required reading in this required freshman course called the Freshman Experience, which I gather has something to do with like kind of you know giving freshman students kind of an alternative experience to the typical kind of

college curriculum i don't fully understand it completely but um it's pretty cool man i got to go and speak to the students and and i also spoke to the general public there and it was like wow i can't believe i wrote a book that's being taught in college like that is such a trip were they now this is the were they approaching it from a place of yes you could go and you know try and live the dream that you saw in animal house or revenge of the nerds but have a read of this guy's book and see that he actually did that and then was that the angle they were coming from yeah i mean i think that the the guy who kind of put it together is a big, you know, like sort of vegan advocate. And he just, you know, loved the book and wanted me to come out. So there was definitely kind of the plant-based diet component of that

that contributed to it. But I think kind of, you know, in a more general sense, the book, it had a little bit of a slow debut because, slow debut because there's a picture of a guy running on the cover. And it's like, oh, well, this is a book for runners about how to be a better runner. And that appeals to a certain demographic of people, but that's not a huge, that's not the general public at large. And it took time for word to kind of get out or spread that actually that's sort of the surface level story. But it's really about how do you access a better version of yourself. And diet is certainly like the beginning portal to that.

But it's not the be all end all. That's like the starting line. And once you kind of clean up your diet and, you know, in my case, plant-based. And I stand by that being optimal, at least in my experience, then what? You know, it's sort of like you develop a clarity of mind and a more energized kind of feeling of being in your body and an increase in vitality and energy. And then what do you channel that towards? what do you channel that towards? And so the message really, or the theme that I was trying to express that hopefully comes across is that it's an opportunity, it's a growth opportunity to access and unlock a better, more authentic version of yourself, to more fully express

something that maybe is locked deep inside you or has been latent or that you've been afraid to kind of pursue. And it gives people like permission or a little bit of an inspirational roadmap to kind of begin that journey. And it has nothing to do with running or Ultraman or any of that. It could be playing the banjo or whatever. And so in the context of speaking at colleges, there's that, there's sort of this call to action

to invest in yourself, to think differently, to not like be an automaton, to just do your homework, but to actually do what I didn't do in college, which was to develop a relationship with myself, to try to understand what is it that I want to express and offer? What do I want to devote my life to? And college is like the fertile ground to kind of begin that journey and you know unfortunately i was too loaded this is what i was gonna ask myself to do that go back what is it 27 years um you're at college and they say oh this this ultraman athlete's gonna come and talk to you like say what what do you think it would have changed your life if you as you were saw you speak now probably not you know i was just getting going my my

alcoholism was just starting to kick in you know it's like i actually found that bit of the book like so visual to read i was because that was my 17 18 19 year old experience it was just an endless it was house parties and beer right just unstoppable Just unstoppable. And it was nuts. Yeah. I don't think I could have, I wouldn't have been able to hear it. You know, you know, the, the, the sort of, uh, you know, the message presents itself when the person is ready to hear it. You know, personally, I wouldn't have been ready to hear it, but you know, maybe there are other people, maybe I would have, I don't know. You know what I mean? Like I remember being in high school and, uh, they carted in some recovering alcoholic to come and talk to us. And he told some crazy stories about

how, like, he just couldn't watch football or have, or have pizza anymore without getting drunk. And I just thought that was, you know, absurd. And this was like, before I even started drinking, I was like, I don't want any part of that dude. Like, first of all, he doesn't look like he's enjoying his life. And, uh, and I don't know what I'm supposed to be getting out of this. And, you know, I, I still remember that, but I remember being kind of turned off at the time and, and maybe there was a preachiness to it. I'm not sure or whatever. So, you know, how do you relate to a college student? How do you get through to them and help and hopefully inspire them? So you don't do it by telling them don't drink and eat healthy food. You just try to tell us, tell a story and see if it

kind of connects with somebody. What was their reaction? Yeah, for sure. You know, not everybody, but, you know, definitely, like, I did a Q&A, and there were plenty of students who were like, how do you do this, and how do you do that? It was cool, man. When you were drinking, you would still go into the gym, right? You were still working out. Occasionally. Not in the latter years, but, you know, there was a good, yeah, there was a, well, first of all, I started drinking alcoholically when I was still a competitive swimmer,

trying to do both of those things at the same time, which didn't work out too well. But I think I know what are you getting, I think I know where you're going with this, but. I'm just kind of getting what was your, well, let me just go back and then I'll ask you this question because I'm really fascinated to know. You got into what, Stanford, was it?

Yeah. On the back of your swimming? Yeah, I mean, I was a good student too, but I probably wouldn't have gotten into Stanford without the swimming, certainly. So when your competitive peak, which you talk about in the book, was in swimming, was in college, right?

My freshman year was the last time that I swam fast, yeah. So who's fitter, that rich role? Or if you were eating the way you did now, if you lived your life the way you did now, when you were there, where you had that opportunity, that swim program, that coach, that school,

do you ever think about what might've been? What could have happened? Of course, unquestionably. I mean, but who doesn't, you know, that's not,

you know, unique to me. I mean, I think most people, or a lot of people go, God, if I could go to college now, knowing what I know now,

like, you know, I'd already have a degree. Yeah. I mean, well, just, you know, you think back to college now knowing what i know now like you know i'd already have a degree yeah i mean well just you know you think back to college and you're like oh my god like basically the whole world was available to me it was there for the taking if i just kind of could have showed up for it in a different more responsible way you know i mean okay so it's a bit of an unfair of a question because you're right so i guess the question is like who's fit a plant-based rich in his mid-40s or uh or that rich what's your definition of fit

um that's a good question like who's i asked this because um the reason the way i got into eating a plant-based diet was a very different way from everybody else there's this game we play in Australia called cricket. I've never heard of that. All right. It's kind of- Now, here's the part where you start to explain the rules of cricket. It's exactly like baseball. And we hear crickets.

No, cricket is exactly like baseball, is that I throw a ball to you, you hit the ball away for a certain distance, and you have to get from one place to another before the ball comes back. You get out the same way, caught on the fall, la, la, la. away for a certain distance and you have to get from one place to another before the ball comes back. All right? You get out the same way, caught on the fall, la, la, la, la. So we have this, except cricket can go for five days.

And when we have a World Series, we actually play other countries. Not like this World Series. Five days. Five days. We have games that go for five days and 100,000 people show up and it's the greatest. Anyway, so one of the greatest cricket players my country, Australia,'s ever seen was a guy by the name of greg chapel and he was a god when we were kids god all right and he wrote a book called the men's health manual or the men's

health repair manual i read it when i was 23 24 and he was talking about a plant-based he was in his 50s at this point he was talking about eating plant-based, he was in his 50s at this point. He was talking about eating plant-based and his experience of quitting dairy. And he said there, he's like, I'm 50-something right now, and the way I eat right now, I'm fitter, faster, sharper than when I was considered the best batsman on the face of the earth. And he did lament for a second about, you know, if I did it then, there was this big sporting record like breaking, I guess it's like breaking Babe Ruth's big record, Like I would have broken it.

It would have smashed to pieces if I was eating the way I do now. And that really affected me because it had nothing to do with dreadlocks. It had nothing to do with patchouli oil. It was just the guy who was this icon. That was back when, you know, sport had beards. Men had beards and moustaches, you know. It was like manly, big V-neck shirts. And like here's this guy who is this super masculine dude going i

am fitter more powerful and faster now than i was when i was considered the greatest athlete yeah that's amazing um no i i know where he's coming from and i i feel the same way i mean i would i guess i asked you the question of what's your definition of fitness because for me fitness now uh is sort of a holistic definition of kind of being balanced between mind, body, and spirit. Certainly way more fit now than I was in college. I was completely out of balance. I could bench press more in college and I could swim the hundred butterfly faster in college than I can now for sure. So on that very limited kind of definition of fitness, I guess you could make the argument that I was fitter in college when I was swimming five hours a day and not cycling and

not running. And I was 18, you know what I mean? So it's like I'm 46 years old, right? But I would consider myself way more fit now and sort of connected to my body and, you know, kind of self-aware and dialed in for sure. No question about it. And had I been plant-based in college, I mean, dude, you know, like I think about that all the time. You know, all the time. It's interesting. I got a little side anecdote I had on a podcast, uh, maybe a month or so, or maybe no, it was one of my earlier guests, uh, my friend Garrett Weber Gale, who is an Olympic gold medalist swimmer, uh, swim for the university of Texas. 100 free relay at the Beijing Olympics where the United States came from behind and beat France and Michael Phelps and it was like a big deal right like he was on a amazing swimmer like

incredibly fast super into food he's got a website called athletic foodie and he's a professional swimmer now trying again for the Olympics and he he left me a voicemail over the weekend he was in Charlotte at a big meet I think it's called the Ultra Swim. It's a big swim meet every spring in Charlotte, North Carolina. He's like, hey, Rich, it's Garrett. I'm out here in Charlotte. The meet, I'm at Ricky Barron's house. Ricky's like another like massive like swim star, right? And he's like, we're having lunch. We're talking about food and nutrition and health and plant-based and all this kind of stuff. And, and, uh, this guy, Mike Alexandrov, he's a, he's a, like a Olympic, you know, a hundred breaststroker guys, like amazing swimmer. He starts telling me how he's read this book and, you know, he's starting to

learn about being plant-based. He started eating chia seeds in the morning and he's got all this energy and he's just killing it and his workouts. And, and, uh, and then I've like, I was like, wow, that's cool. Like I wasn't, I didn't, I'd heard the name Mike Alexander, but I didn't know who he was. And I, I was like, I checked him out online. He ended up winning like the a hundred breaststroke and the 200 breaststroke at that meet that weekend. And I emailed him, I'm like, dude, chia seeds are rocking it out for you. And like, I, I don't know if he's completely plant-based, but it sounds like he's, you know, probably kind of leaning in that direction, maybe more so than most swimmers. Cause Garrett was telling me they still, most swimmers eat abominably. Um, but for him to be, you know, like for a swimmer at that level, at that elite level

to be, you know, there's a lot of fear, you know, it's like, even if you read a book and it says, absolutely, this diet will make you a better athlete. It's sort of like, it's scary to try something different than what you've been told even if you kind of believe it intellectually in the back of your mind you're like yeah but i don't know you know and it takes balls and courage to try something different because there's a lot to lose when you're an athlete at that level and that's your job i think in you know you hear it kind of bandied about, and especially when in the wake of what we've seen in the last 12 months when just the international bodies are cracking down on doping,

cracking down hard, athletes are just going to look to nutrition. They're going to look to nutrition for the advantage. Right, I hope so. That's where they're going to look, and hopefully they'll find that. And like then, it's not the cover of a Wheaties box, it'll be the cover of the kale packet. Hey! The irony is that for the most part,

at least in my experience, athletes are so like, they're all about, what's my workout and training really hard and even like extending that to all the kind of rehab stuff they do and weight room and strength. But then when it comes to diet, it's just like whatever. You know, like they'll just eat whatever because they're hungry

and they're just like calories in, calories out. And this same guy, Garrett, was telling me he was at the Olympic Training Center in Colorado Springs for a training camp. And this is where America's best and brightest go to prepare for the Olympics. And I was like, how's the cafeteria there? And he was just like, really? He was like,

you wouldn't believe he's like, they have healthy options there, but you kind of have to ask for it. It's the Olympic training. It's like, yeah, exactly. Right.

I can't believe it. I don't know. There's a lot of work to be done. That's astonishing. I know. That's absolutely astonishing. Well, and it goes,

you know, there's a lot of, you know, there's just, it's, I mean, where do you even point the finger? You know, it's like, there's a lot of education that still needs to happen. You get your mate to tell his buddy there at Colorado Springs to get you and Julie in there and you and your wife. Dial it in, right. where does where does this go i mean obviously even the very first time you considered raising

your or having your kids eat mostly a plant-based thing you guys you're intelligent you know husband and wife you know we should really figure this out and make sure that all their bones and everything are going to grow right like you didn't just guess it right you obviously did your homework so it's in education that you know this is as a way of of eating in a way of living in a way of creating the best version of yourself is going to move forward isn't it and like so in your experience or your opinion beyond things like this podcast like where do you see this kind of education coming from do you see perhaps you know putting putting like it's in the freshman class at one university what about you know in the in the

primary school or in a high school yeah i mean that's that's the goal you know what i mean and it starts with word of mouth and it starts with things like little podcasts like this and then it grows to you know books like finding ultra and my beef with meat you know and people starting to get the word out and then it creates like a momentum around it. The problem is that like we were talking about before, there's a lot of cemented vested interests that, you know, really don't want to budge, you know, so there's huge food companies that are providing the school systems with the food, you know, providing here in America and here in America, the cafeteria, the kids ate lunch at school. Yeah, I mean, you can bring your own lunch, but school lunch in America is abominable. It is absolutely horrific, the food that they're given

and what they're told is healthy or not. There's regulations like they have to have a fruit and they have to have a vegetable, but when they can characterize ketchup as a vegetable, it's absurd. And there's been people that have been working hard to try to change it. You know, Jamie Oliver had that TV show, was it last year, a couple of years ago called Food Revolution. And I thought it was wonderful. You know, he went

into this small town and he kind of revolutionized their little, I think it was in Pennsylvania, change your school lunch program. And, you know, he was able to kind of expose standard operating procedure at these schools and enact some small changes and kind of empower the kids and the teachers and the faculty or whatever to take greater responsibility for that. And then the story I heard was that the next season he wanted to come to Los Angeles and do the same thing, you know, at this larger, more entrenched school district program. And it just wasn't going to happen. Like he couldn't get, he couldn't get it going because there was too much political resistance because there's too much money involved with these people. From the contractors that provide the food, the trucking and all that. Absolutely. Yeah. There's unions and there's lobbying groups and, you know, there's a lot of, you know of powerful interests that really don't want any of these changes to happen.

People don't even consider that that would even go on. We are these weird creatures. We have to put something in our bodies at least three times a day or we get cranky, irritable, and after a couple of weeks we die. And so we will forgive a lot of badness around it. I'm hungry, you get to a point where you're so hungry, I don't care, I'll just have it, put it in my face. You talk about it in your book when you bonked riding

and you pulled over and you ate out of a garbage dumpster. Right. You know, but you were at that point. You were like, dude, I've just got to eat. And so people tend not to want to think about that. They tend not want to think that something. Well, and then when you start to kind of say, well, here's how it really works,

you start sounding like some kind of lunatic conspiracy theorist i did bring my tinfoil hat yeah i know but on that note uh there was a story um a big story about a week ago about a public school in new york in queens uh that is the first public school to institute a vegetarian uh school lunch program, which is amazing. So when you understand how entrenched these interests are, to be able to enact a seismic change like that is a big deal. So I'm going to New York tomorrow,

and I've got a bunch of podcast interviews lined up when I'm there, but I'm going to go out to that school and interview um some of the people that's amazing that's how I want to I want to know like how did that happen but you know it's like it's it's an amazing story because it like as we're going circling back to where we started watching your kids make their afternoon snack today um this is the time of their life where they create their food habits and if the food habit they're getting at school is slop on a plate with some cut up peach in a can. That's it.

I know when I first started living alone, when I moved out, I went to the grocery store and I was like, well, what do I get? Oh, I get what I've always eaten. I didn't know anything else. Right. And so education was a very big part of me. And, yeah, totally, I made some big mistakes. I'd conk out a lot of the time and I'd just eat pasta all week

and freak out. But speaking of your family, this has nothing to do with anything that you have written in your book nor what you've talked about on your podcast, which I am kind of interested to know. What, considering it's something that I'm not, and there's a lot of people who are listening that are not, that are considering that this is in their future, what do I need to know about being a father?

Dude, you're coming out of left field with that one. That's pretty heavy. Watching you yesterday, Rich and i went for a run up a mountain well rich strolled and frolicked it was freaking hot out yesterday man and we're like 100 degrees or like 8 a.m it was hot we came home and one of his daughters is just frolicking in the pool and just watching the two of you interact watching the two you light up like that the two of you light up like that, I was like, man, there's something, that's a relationship in your life that you're not going to get anywhere else. And like to guys who are like, oh, I don't know about kids,

guys who are afraid of kids, guys who are like meet a girl and they go, yeah, but she wants kids. And they're terrified of it. So let me ask you, let me get in that way. What would you say to them? and they're terrified of it. What would you say? Let me ask you, let me get in that way. What would you say to them?

I would say that I'm not the guy who was walking around going, I can't wait to have kids in a family. You know what I mean? Like I love my kids and I can't imagine my life without them. They've enriched my life in ways I can't even articulate.

But it wasn't like I was that guy who was like yearning for it his whole life. In fact, when I got sober, my relationship experience had been so horrible that I wasn't even sure I ever wanted to be in a relationship again, let alone be married. And it took a lot of years of work to get to a place where I was even comfortable being intimate with another person, feeling safe in that respect. And I thought that my next girlfriend would be five to seven years younger than me and hopefully relatively issue-free. You know what I mean? Like after this experience that I had with this terrible kind of marriage thing that happened that I talk about in the book,

but life and love doesn't work that way, you know what I mean? I met Julie. She already had two boys from a previous marriage and the heart wants what the heart wants. So when I wanted to pursue a relationship with julie it it came you know it was the whole package kind of coming in with it not that i you know they had i wasn't trying to replace their dad who's very much in their life um he's since passed away but but uh i was like oh wow like i had like instant kind of family situation going on and that was not in the car that was not what i was kind of well to say wanting is a weird word but it wasn't what i had programmed for me um but then realizing

you know how amazing that was and then wanting you know my own children as a result of that so what was the what was the click was it the fact that julie turned up with these these guys and you kind of got to have a bit of a test run? There was a little bit of that. You know what I mean? Like it was a little bit of sort of being the cool uncle for a while and getting used to being around young people before I had my own kids. So I had like a little bit more experience than maybe a new dad

because I got to spend so much time with these young boys that were three and four when I first met them. Um, and also when, you know, when I had my first child with Julie, she'd been through it before. So there wasn't any of that new parent panic, you know, like maybe I was panicked, but she's like, it's handled, you know what I mean? Like, don't worry about it. i've done this before it's gonna be okay so just just go just go back at least at least nine and a half months go back to where like where was the switch from oh i don't even know if i want this don't if i can have this in my life too you know what yeah i do want this what what was like i'm asking because there are a lot of guys that go oh i don't know if i could ever do it

and they're too afraid to and all of a sudden they turn around they're like oh shit i'm 50 right uh and honestly i think that too yeah well i think it first started with being in a healthy relationship you know and that kind of like grounded me in a certain way and made me want to build on that so the the first part was being healthy with my partner, you know what I mean? And that took a lot of work, like I said, to be able to kind of be in that space after never being in a healthy relationship my whole life. And with that grounding comes, I think, a level of sort of settling or domestication where you get more comfortable with that idea. And then having the boys around going, yeah, I want to, I want to build this. I want more of this in my life. I mean,

you know, I think that, that, uh, you know, for people that don't want kids, that's fine. That's a choice. I have no judgment on that. You know, the only thing that I can offer is that it makes me feel more complete, you know, it gives me purpose and grounding and, and direction that I don't think that I would have without kids. And, you know, it's weird. It's like, uh, you know, if there's any kind of criticism from the book, it's like, you always get like a little bit of snark or whatever. It's like, Oh, this guy's like, so irresponsible with his kids. He just goes off and trains all day and like his poor wife and kids. And It's like, oh, this guy is like so irresponsible with his kids. He just goes off and trains all day and like his poor wife and kids

and it's like, that's not what's going on at all. I mean, you've been around my family. You have a sense of like how we kind of function. You know,

there are times where I've put a lot of time into training but never at the cost of my family and kids and, you know, I would never sacrifice that

for some midlife athletic goal. It requires work to be balanced in that regard. But I think that it makes me a more present partner and father for my kids. And that, because what you're hearing, what he's talking about, like the grounding and the focus and the direction that being a father gives you, it sounds like something that you,

obviously something you can't access any other way. Well, I think that, you know, this sort of stereotypical fear reaction of having kids, like, oh my God, my life is going to be over and I'm not going to be over and I'm not going to be able to do all these things that I like to do. I mean, certainly, you know, trajectories change when you have kids, it's just by the very nature of there being another human being in your life, you know, that you're responsible for. Um, but, uh,

my experience has not been that anything has ended, you know, it's really just been enriched. And I think, again, it goes back to, you know, like the things that I like to do before I still do and the things, and your interests change things I used to be interested in doing or thought that I would miss. I don't miss anymore. And how is it? There's a lot of the times. And, and I had the opportunity after, after I got divorced, I had the opportunity to live with a family's a lot of the times, and I had the opportunity, after I got divorced, I had the opportunity to live with a family,

a friend of mine. She invited me to come live with her house. And I lived in the back house, and they had two kids. And I got the opportunity to interact with a family that wasn't mine and kind of be around, like, as you say, like a cool uncle or whatever. These kids were six and eight. And it redefined my relationship to motherhood because I'd never seen another family work.

And I was like, all right, it can be this way because I'm one of four boys. Mum raised us alone from when I was 11. It was like Lord of the Flies in my house. It was insane. It was awesome. Mum did a great job, but it was pretty intense. Boys running crazy, beating on each other. Yeah, it was that.

Yeah, we went through a lot of holes in the wall. But a lot of people tend, and you see it often, people tend not to be able to break away from what they knew. It's like with eating. This is what they learned about being in a family. So when they have their own kids, this is what they do and they just do it because their dad always did didn't have you found yourself redefining your relationship with fatherhood and fathers being a father yeah definitely and i have to attribute julie with a

lot of that kind of um sort of program busting you know i come from i come from very loving parents who who took care of me and provided all of my needs. And it was very kind of upwardly mobile, suburban, not like wealthy, but we didn't have to worry about it. My parents were able to send me to a really nice high school and all that kind of stuff. And it was very conventional and basically conservative. And Julie's kind of like comes from a completely different life experience. Like she grew up, she's half Chilean. She grew up in Alaska.

She's the youngest and just ran wild over these glaciers. She's got insane stories about when she's young. And she has this ability to kind of see things differently than most people and she has the courage and the backbone to say i know everybody's doing it this way but i'm going to do it this way you know and if you don't think i can then just watch me you know and she's very strong and powerful in that way and that challenges me because i'm like wait a minute you know that's not how people do this and we need to do it like this because I feel safe doing it this way. For example-

Like the food choices we were talking about before. Exactly. And this, so I guess the best example of this is we've made this decision to homeschool our kids, right? Which is a huge responsibility. And one that, you know, not a day goes by where I don't go, am I doing the right thing? Is this in their best interest?

Am I screwing them up or is this? And I watch like, am I doing the right thing? Is this in their best interest? Am I screwing them up? And I watch the kids develop and I see them achieving a level of maturity that I don't typically see in kids of that age. And I know I feel better and more secure about making this choice, but it is way out of my comfort zone. Julie is convinced that, you know, we're doing the best thing for them. Um, but because of my upbringing, it's like, I don't know, like, you know, I'm used to, you know, I wore a coat and tie to high school every day, you know, and so it's like, if we're not doing that, then like, what are we doing over here? Like, this doesn't make sense to me. And it makes me, but I think that you have to, you know, ask those hard questions and kind of challenge yourself to try new things if you want quantum growth.

You know, if you just want to, if you want to be like everyone else and do what everyone else is doing. It's sort of like you get out of things what you put into them, right? of like you get out of things what you put into them right and great entrepreneurs you know people that have you know changed our world have been people who have asked those hard questions and have boldly sort of said i'm not going to do it that way i'm going to do it this way and maybe they've made enemies and made mistakes along the way but they've had the kind of backbone to do something different. And I see that in Julie and it helps me look at my life and the choices that I'm making in a different way. And hopefully, you know, empowers me to do different things. And, you know, I think everybody needs to, you know, kind of question authority or question the status quo. You know, when you watch

the news at night like well what is behind that like why are they telling me this story and not this other story you know what i mean like kids when you watch the news with your kids yeah yeah yeah yeah awesome yeah my folks used to do that my mom always did that as well um so that leads me on to my next question uh about you about, you know, you talk about having this, you just talked about having this, you know, this, this kind of reason for being with these kids in your life and you introduce yourself often as a recovering attorney. Yeah.

So a lot of people would think you, what you gave up being a lawyer, this by society perceives it's like, it's a bath tap that just drips water, drips money. Sorry, it's a shower faucet that just spurts out money when you're a lawyer. So you've got four kids' mouths to feed, yourself and your wife, and you're like, don't want to be a lawyer anymore. That is a colossal, that's like more intense than going, I'm going to go do five Ironmans in five days.

Like it's such a enormous enormous leap to do i think that when you want to do something uh with your life if you have kind of one foot in and one foot out then it's not going to happen or you are uh not giving it your all. Right. And you know, I made a decision when the book came out and started getting, you know, kind of the reaction that it was getting. I felt that I had a responsibility and it sounds weird, not like a calling, but like, you know, I felt compelled and I had the message to kind of seed that garden and help it grow. You know what I mean?

I think people, there's a need for it. And there's a sense of satisfaction that comes with participating in this dialogue that I don't get, you know, from practicing law. And it's a hard, it was a hard-wrought decision. Certainly I can go back to doing it, you know, should I need to. It's not like, it's not like I can't go back to being a lawyer. But I made the decision to not try to do both because I wanted to commit myself to this completely. And it hasn't been, you know, a bed of roses, you know, it's like, we got a late start today because on my way back, uh, my car broke down, you know what I mean? And right now, like quite honestly, like I don't have enough money for a

new transmission. And Julie just left to go call AAA and get it towed over to the gas station. You know, it's like, I'm watching every penny and, and, uh, we're making it work, but it's a warrior path, dude. You know, and it is, you know, I think an outsider can look at it and go, Oh, well he, you know, good for him. He wrote a book. He goes around and do all this. Must be nice.

It's like it is freaking hard, and I'm working my ass off harder than I ever did as a lawyer to try to figure out how to systematize this in a way that I'm still being responsible to my family because that comes first. And if that begins to suffer and I have to go back to practicing law, then I will do that. That's fine. That's my obligation as a responsible, fiscally responsible parent. But I'm really trying to give this a go. It seems that you've got this kind of skill set of the determination and ability to, as we talked about earlier,

overcome the automatic negative thought that you can apply to either running up a mountain, cycling across a lower field, or going, you know what, I'm going to take this path. And would you say that it's a similar, it's endurance, but it's just using the same part of your brain? Yeah, there's no question about it. People have been asking me, well, what's your next race or when are you going to race again? And I keep saying, well, I haven't signed up for anything or I just haven't found the thing that inspires me,

the way that I was inspired to take on this Ultraman challenge. But I think the truth is, is that all of that kind of verve and enthusiasm and passion is really directed now things like doing the podcast and going out and speaking to people and meeting people and trying to help people improve their lives. That's my ultra matter. Even though you said, and really thank you for being so candid about talking about where you are in life at the moment. There's somebody listening to this right now who's sitting in an office cubicle or working in a mobile phone store or something just goes yeah what would you say to them but like they've got a dream of doing something else

and even though you've made now you've made that leap and now you're you know the net is there right that you know so we so what are you saying so my question is what would you say to like for example for me i'm you know i was at this point in australia with my career and i'm like you know what i've got to go to america that's the next move that's where it's going to be yeah and and i committed and i'm here and career momentum in australia died down as it does and i'm here and i'm working real hard to to to make stuff happen here, but I can't do it any other way. I can't have a foot in both countries. No, you can't.

You can't be afraid to fail. But I've had the benefit of I put money in the bank. I saved up. Yeah, yeah, yeah. What would you say to someone who's listening to this right now going, yeah, I would change jobs or I would move my career or I would do that because – but I can't because of it yeah i know i get it i mean i think that you know when i when i was uh you know buckled over on the staircase and realized they needed to change my diet that you

know did i have a flash that i would be sitting here with andrew doing a podcast right now. He's like, you know, you can't predict the trajectory of your life because it is composed of tiny moments aggregated over time. So to somebody who feels stuck, you know, the way out is to just begin doing something. You know, whether it's, hey, go to the bookstore and buy The Artist's Way. And when you wake up in the morning, write three pages down. You know, it's hey go to the bookstore and buy the artist's way and when you wake up in the morning write three pages down you know that's a start you know what i mean that's actually a massive thing to do a massive change you know and and over time you start to string together tiny little seismic shifts like that and you'll look back a year later two years later

five years later and your life will have taken on a completely different color and trajectory. And so in that point, on that path, the idea of deciding not to do loyalty was just another step on that path. Was it, or was it, it was obviously a bigger step but you didn't just wake up and go,

that's it, I'm not gonna do. No, no, no. I mean, I've been trying to find a way out of practicing law for a very long time but I tried to do it with one foot in and one foot out. Like, hey, I'm just gonna do a little bit or, you know, and then the phone would ring and I'd get sucked into doing some project because somebody was paying me. So a lot of it has been about creating a foundation that made it possible for me to generate income from other sources, which I spent a lot of time

creating that foundation before I turned the faucet off on the law. And then also it's about healthy boundaries too, and learning how to say no, you know, for me, it's so if somebody wanted to offer me a gig, even if it was working for horrible people, you know, I would say yes, because my self-worth was, it might be the last gig anybody ever offers me and I'm lucky to get it. Yeah. Yeah. For me. So there's an esteem issue built into that. And as you start to develop greater self-esteem by doing esteemable acts, you have an opportunity to create healthier boundaries around yourself. And a lot of times that involves learning how to say no to opportunities that might seem attractive in a short-term way but aren't actually serving your longer-term vision for what you you want your life to be right come on dude you know all this stuff though it's heavy though

it's it's good it's good it's good to hear i mean there's someone listening to this right now but listen you know that i've had you know dark moments of the soul like i didn't sleep very well last night right i was up i i was I barely slept last night because I was like, oh, my God, I got to do this. And how am I going to make ends meet with this thing? And this other thing that I thought was going to work out, I just found out isn't working out. It's like it's not all roses, man. It's like I am busting my butt and it's not always going. The brakes aren't always going my way. I've had a rough couple of days. So like I said, it's the warrior's path.

You have to stay in the game, you know what I mean? And you have to be, you have to believe in yourself and you have to have faith in something outside of yourself that this path that you're on will lead you into a direction that is suited for you. But that only comes with doing the internal work. You know what I mean? You can't trust your instincts if you're not healthy on the inside, right? Because what are those signals that are leading you? Are they healthy signals or are they unhealthy signals? And, you know, your divining rod for making that determination

better be well-tuned. Sometimes the, you know, we think we've got the best idea about how something should go and then we turn around and go like well this is the best that the best that i could do and has got me to this point which i'm not happy about so we actually get to a point where we start listening to other people's ideas and then trusting them and doing what they say so i'm interested to know who are the people around you that you turn to when you're having that dark night of the soul who do you turn to for guidance and who because people are listening to this going here's this guy rich roll he did this he eats this he has this life i want to be like him so i'm going to take similar steps because i want that in my life as well but you're looking up as well so who are you looking yeah uh well

for sure my for sure julie you know i mean she's i check in with her you know daily if not hourly like i'm feeling down today this is what happened you know and she helps me talk through everything so again it goes back to having that you know healthy communication in your relationship where you know you feel safe talking about vulnerable things um Um, and then I have friends in recovery that I run my decisions by, you know what I mean? Like I try not to make big decisions in isolation. You know, I'll run it by, you know, trusted people, people that I trust their judgment, and then I'll evaluate the reaction. And it's usually a pretty good indication

of whether I should or shouldn't do something. Um, but again, you still have to take responsibility for that decision. And sometimes, you know, when I, when I first was like, Hey, you know, I'm eating plant based and I think I'm going to try this crazy Ultraman race. What do you think? You know, it was like, I didn't get an overwhelming, like slap on the back, like, go for it. We're proud of you. That's a, that sounds awesome. You know sounds awesome. The reaction was, yeah, no, that doesn't sound like a very grounded decision, Rich. Have you thought this through? Or like, how are you, you know, like, I don't know, you know, like, where is this coming from? You know, so that would have been an, that was an example of where I actually said, you know, this time I'm going to trust my instinct because I feel driven in this direction for some reason and it feels right to me.

And even though people I trust are kind of saying, well, I'm not so sure, Rich, you know, I'm going to do what feels right to me. But I would say overwhelmingly or the majority of the time when I run my decisions by my peers, you know, I end up listening to them. But it's incumbent upon you to make sure that you recruit the proper board of advisors because otherwise you fall prey to, you know, the whimsical, you know, ideas or advice of somebody who, you know, is not guiding you in the right direction, right? Yeah. So you've mentioned Julie quite a bit, she sounds like,

and I don't know if this is such a thing, but what would you say to women who are listening or guys who would like to take this message to their wives or girlfriends, or girls who would like to take this to their boyfriends or husbands about the training widow, the partner doesn't see their partner because they're off on a six or eight hour.

The triathlon widow. Yeah. Yeah. What would you say to those people about what, you know, that training does for this person or, you know, to the person who's the widow.

Yeah. The one sitting at home going, I'd love to do something on my Saturday, but he's, or she's off riding up a mountain today. Yeah. That's, that's a tough one. Because it's a big deal. It's a very real thing.

And I have friends on both sides of that equation. I think it depends on the specific dynamic of that relationship. You know what I mean? Is their communication healthy or is it dysfunctional? Is it the kind of thing where the guy makes, the specific dynamic of that relationship. You know what I mean? Is there, is there communication healthy or is it dysfunctional? You know, is it the kind of thing where the guy makes all the money and he says, screw you, I'm going to do what I want with my free time. And you're going to, you're just, you're going to have to suck it up. Like, or is it, you know, where there's more parody in the relationship and there's more open communication?

You know, I think it depends, but, but, But, you know, I think the person who's suffering needs to address the issue in a conscious way and in a non-threatening way saying, you know, because I know what it feels. I love when I'm training, you know, but when I'm off training, I'm thinking, you know, what is the time that I'm missing with my kids? Like, I need to balance this correctly.

What else can I cut out of my life so that this isn't interfering? And to be able to have that conversation with your partner and say, what is the time that I'm missing with my kids? Like I need to balance this correctly. What else can I cut out of my life so that this isn't interfering? And to be able to have that conversation with your partner and say, hey, listen, you know, it would be really great if you could be around more. You know, is there another way

or are there other hours that we could do this? You know, maybe instead of having your rest day on Monday, why don't you have it on Sunday? You know, we can enjoy the kids or let's set aside a specific day or two days, or this is the night that we always go on our date, you know, and that's sacrosanct. And this is the day that you do things with the kids or every Tuesday, you know, you take your son to baseball or whatever it is, and you set appointments and you, um, you put some time

and effort into organizing the schedule and work with the person as opposed to come at them and say you know why are you doing this in an aggressive way yeah right um and i guess the other the other question i the other part of that i would like to you know ask and i know that back when i was still living with um when I was still living with my wife, the me and her before a run and after a run were two completely different things. When I came back from a run, if I had missed my run, that was worse.

If I'd missed my run, it was like it was not a good day for anyone. Yeah. No, I say it all the time. Julie's like, would you please go running like i'll just be i'll just embark on some absurd line of argument with her and she's just looking at me like like are you done yet like okay leave now you know come back when you and it's amazing the difference isn't it yeah man i have to if i don't if i don't run i just go do it i just yeah i've got to go but i i'm interested like you mentioned before

and i'm wondering if you want to cover it here or if this is going to be in the next book like what i'd be really interested in i'll tell you what here's what i'd like you to put in the next book please rich um i'd like you to put in the running meditation technique that you talked about and addressing that entire mental and psychological aspect of the endurance thing that you you spoke of right um you touched on it what we talked about but i'd love you for you to dive deep and kind of give that gift to people um because you can tell them what to eat you can tell them you know run this many intervals that many splits do this many cycles, this many rest days. But when you hit that wall, here's how to think your way around it.

Yeah. You know, that's what I'd love to see from you. Good, man. I'm glad to hear that because that's kind of, you know, the direction that I'm thinking. Oh, really? Well, I mean, I think. Because honestly, seeing where you run,

seeing the mountains you run with, you with, with the hawks and the... We should give you a First Nation name. You really deserve... I can understand why you would get into that kind of transcended space. Damn, I run down on the Venice Boardwalk. I don't quite know if I can... Yeah, but I go down and run on the... We talked about this.

I go down and run on the Venice Boardwalk sometimes for very specific reasons that are related to being on the venice boardwalk sometimes for very specific reasons you know that are related to being on the trail with the hawk like i go down there so that i can run by all the people selling weed and the people in the bars and the drunks walking around and the kind of street urchin characters that i love no and i love it and I used to live down there. Right. And, and I go down there to kind of check myself or, or get a read on my barometer. Like if I'm running through there and I'm like, oh, that looks good. I could go into that bar at two in the afternoon right now. Well, then I go,

all right, well, that's interesting. Like I probably need to dial up my program right now. Okay. Or I, or I do it as a gratitude check where I'm running through and I was like, I see somebody and I go, that guy looks exactly like what i used to look like i can tell i can see it a mile away and it makes me feel like it makes me check in and and get and and emotionally tap into like the distance traveled you know because i i have you know sometimes i forget like oh yeah you know a couple if a couple things have been different like i could be that guy in that bar you know and i'm not and i forget that and so that's to me just as powerful as being alone on a trail you know it's it's like they say uh um it's easy to be spiritual if you're a Tibetan monk sitting in a cave.

It's a lot harder to be spiritual in the world with the stimuli and real-life challenges and all of that. And so you've got to take that with you wherever you go and vary that experience. So if you could write about how to get into that running meditation, that would be good. If you could write about how to get vegetables into children, I think people would be very – the way you described that, I found that really, really good. And the mindset that you put around and involving them in that choice,

because even just getting veggies into kids is a huge – Huge, right? Particularly when every time they turn on the television, it's like, eat this, it's covered in cheese and sugar and salt. Yeah. That'd,

that'd be really good for a book too, which is how far away? It's a little ways away. Well, you know, it's interesting. And some awesome thing about being about fatherhood, put something else in there about, because you've got, I think you've got a. And some awesome thing about fatherhood. Put something else in there.

Because I think you've got a lot to share with a lot of men. We talked about this on the trail the other day. The role of men in society, it is you're not Don Draper. You don't come home. There's a triple finger scotch waiting for you on the desk. You read the paper. That could be good though. You get handed a paper.

You get left alone for 20 minutes. Dinner's hot on the paper. That could be good though. Yeah, you get handed a paper, you get left alone for 20 minutes, dinner's hot on the table and you fall asleep in front of the TV before casting comes on. Like that's just gone. Right. And I see my eldest brother kind of struggle with it. He's older than me and he's just got twin boys and he's like, well, what do I – I'm supposed to go out and earn money yet i'm also supposed to

share this responsibility of changing all these diapers nappies we call them in my country right and preparing all these bottles yet now i can't sleep because i'm up at three in the morning i've got a client briefing at nine yeah there's a confusion of the gender roles like it's it's it causes vertigo for a man like what are we supposed to do are we supposed to be the guy who's opening up the door and paying the check? Or are we supposed to be the metrosexual guy who's getting the chest waxed? And, you know, it's like, what is, you know what I mean? Really blonde hair.

But I think, yeah, there's a lot to mine there. I mean, I've been thinking, like, you know, it's funny. Somebody, I think it was my editor, said to me, I, uh, somebody, I think it was my editor said to me, I was like, Oh, I'm thinking about it. I'm thinking about it. You know what, what the next book is going to be. And he said, well, most authors only have one book in them. And I was like, that's great. Thank you for that. And I go, and I thought about that and I was like, cause for a while I was like, well, what do I want to express? And I go, maybe I've maybe i've already done it you know maybe that maybe i don't have another book but then i've been thinking about it it's like i told my story i'm not telling my story again but i think you know i look at all these diet books or sort of you know um motivational books or what have you well

specifically the diet books and generally they lay out a diet plan and then they're like, there you go. Here's all the reasons why you should do it and here's how you do it. Good luck, have a nice life. And for me, that's great and that's important, but that's sort of a cliffhanger. You know, it's sort of, well, all right, well, now what?

You know what I mean? Because my perspective is always that wellness or health is should be perceived in a more holistic way where where food and diet is certainly you know a huge critical factor in it but but if you're mentally and spiritually unfit or out of balance then you know you can eat kale all day long but you could be a raving lunatic right or your life can be completely out of whack. So how do we approach these other aspects? Or once you clean up your diet, you know, how do you channel that energy like we were talking about before to be, you know, more fully expressed, grounded, and happy in your life? And you have to kind of look at these other aspects and address them, whether it's, you know,

fatherhood or, you know, this sort of meditative spiritual aspect of what you're doing in your life, whether you're an athlete or a business person or whatever it is, and kind of getting into that. And I think that's where I was glad to hear you say that because I think I do have something to offer to that discussion. It was like, well, I'm going to write another plant-based diet book. My Beef with Meat just came out. It's number 10 on Amazon. It's like, what am I going to offer to that conversation that hasn't already been articulated? Not much. I can reiterate it, but I'm not interested in writing a book that's just that unless I'm bringing something new or interesting to the equation. So anyway, that's where I'm thinking. I have some ideas, but it's just dating.

You've got a lot to offer a lot of people, man. Thank you. Well, you do, and certainly you're talking from your own experience, and you keep saying it in my experience, and your experience is you live like no one I've ever seen. You have a really interesting life. Your youngest daughter addresses me as an equal. Yeah.

How old is she? Five. Yeah. And I guess it reminds me of, because my parents did the same thing. My parents never talked to us in baby talk and they always, from when we were the youngest people, we would freak grownups out by calling them by their first names and, you know, asking them about their day one-on-one.

And it's awesome, man. And you have a, you've got a lot to offer people. So I think you've got more than one book in you. I hope so. Let's see. I don't think there's anything else I wanted to chat to you about. Yeah, do you? You feel happy?

We've made it to the two-hour mark, dude. Oh, really? Do you feel like we covered everything? Is there anything else you wanted to say? Dude, this has been awesome. Are you kidding? Really? Yeah, really great, man.

Are you sure? I appreciate you doing this. It is really – now, don't get me wrong. I can see why they pay you the big bucks well this kind of thing it it's not often that i get to chat to someone for such a long time it's sometimes three minutes sometimes four sometimes 10 rarely 20 so to get to chat someone for two hours two hours it's it's it's it's weird because i'm used to sprints yeah you know You know, so it does feel a little strange. This is the Ultraman of...

But like I said, man, I'm really grateful to have been a part of this and your journey and this experience. No, man, it's good. We're going to have to flip the switch and I'm going to interview you next time. Oh, give me a couple of months. Let me conquer that mountain up the road. Right. Well, we'll get out and we'll do it.

Once you're in the thick of the bulldog training. The ultra, yeah. Yeah, so Osher's committed to running the Bulldog 50K, which is a local 50-kilometer trail running race that is conducted in Malibu Creek State Park here in August. And it's a very challenging course. There's a lot of vertical. 8,000 feet.

Yeah. I mean, there are times on that trail where you feel like getting down on all fours and it's kind of like bouldering. So it's going to be awesome, dude. You're going to do great. I'm looking forward to it. Hey, thanks again, man.

This is great. Yeah. Thank you, man. I appreciate you doing it. Peace. Plants. hey thanks again man this is yeah thank you man i appreciate you doing it peace plants Thank you.