The Rich Roll Podcast - Patience Is Everything: Coach’s Corner with Chris Hauth & Caroline Burckle

Episode Date: August 18, 2017

Today I am joined by Olympians Chris Hauth and Caroline Burckle for another edition of Coach's Corner – a spin on my typical podcast format where I go deep and get granular on the physical, mental and emotional aspects of sport, fitness, training and lifestyle. A sub-9 hour Ironman, Chris (@AIMPCoach) is the current Age Group Ironman World Champion, a former Olympic Swimmer and one of the world's most respected endurance coaches. In 2006, Chris won the Ironman Coeur D’Alene and went on to be the first American amateur & 4th overall American at the Ironman World Championships in Kona, Hawaii. When he's not training and racing, Chris runs AIMP Coaching, mentoring a wide spectrum of athletes ranging from elite professionals — including Ironman and Western States top finishers, Ultraman winners and Olympic Trials qualifiers — to first time half-marathoners. Whether you are an elite or just starting out, Chris knows how to get the best out of athletes the right way. A friend and mentor as much as a coach, I have been under Chris' tutelage since 2008, during which time he deftly guided me through three Ultraman World Championships ('08, '09 & '11), EPIC5 in 2010 and is currently preparing me for the impending Ötillö Swimrun World Championships in Sweden this September, an event we will race together — literally tethered to each other — as a team. Also joining us today (albeit briefly) is my friend Caroline Burkle (@caroburckle). One of the funnest people you will ever meet, Burks is a former Olympic medalist in swimming from the University of Florida, where she was a 23-time All American swimmer, won 2 individual NCAA titles (200 free & 500 free) and was named 2008 NCAA Female Swimmer of the Year. In addition to breaking the oldest then standing women’s NCAA record in the 500 free (with a blazing 4:33), she earned a Bronze medal in the 4×200 free relay at the 2008 Olympics. Caroline has a Masters of Science in Sports Psychology & Motor Behavior from the University of Tennessee and when she’s not training like crazy, she works with young athletes under RISE Elite Athletes, a company she founded that pairs Olympic athletes with young athletes for mentorship and guidance. Today we sit down for a brief (by the standards of this podcast) check in from Lake Tahoe — site of our recent high altitude training camp — for a state-of-the-union on our preparation for the Ötillö Swimrun World Championsips, just 18 days from the date of this posting. Within the frame of this conversation you also will find a number of helpful fitness, training and general wellness takeaways germane to the listener — whether you are an elite athlete, a weekend warrior or just looking for that nudge to get off the couch. Enjoy! Rich

Your whole body is a fine-tuned machine that everything has to work in sync to do the volume that we're talking about. We're not talking about a two-hour workout here. We're talking about six, seven, eight hours at a time at some pretty high intensities. It's a lot on the body and people underestimate just because they feel good today and tomorrow, that they're ready during the weekend or whenever in three, four days to do it again. And no, it takes longer. Our fitness allows us to overcome things that we really aren't familiar with.

And the best way to compensate for that is to be extra fit for it and extra prepared and also rested. That's Chris Houth with special guest Caroline Burkle. And this is The Rich Roll Podcast. and also rested. That's Chris Houth with special guest Caroline Burkle, and this is The Rich Roll Podcast. The Rich Roll Podcast. Hey everybody, my name is Rich Roll. That is my real name. People ask me that all the time. They're like, did you adopt some kind of stage name? No, this is my God-given name, Rich Roll. I've been living with it my whole life. In any event, I am your host.

Welcome or welcome back to my podcast and another edition of Coach's Corner. This is a little series I started a while back to delve a little bit deeper into the physical, mental, and emotional aspects of sport, fitness, training, and lifestyle with my coach, Chris Health, my longtime coach. conversations, which can be a bit personal with respect to my specific training and mentorship under Chris, would end up being a bit niche as we get fairly granular on things I thought perhaps the average listener would not be all that interested in or intrigued by. But much to my surprise, these episodes have been quite popular. You seem to really be enjoying them, so I'm going to keep doing them, and that is what today is all about. For those that are new or newer to the show, Chris Houth is a former Olympic swimmer and world-class triathlete. In 2006, Chris won the Ironman Coeur d'Alene and went on to be the first American amateur and fourth overall American at the Ironman World Championships in Kona.

Chris now exclusively runs his coaching program, AIMP, for athletes across the country and around the globe. And it's not just limited to triathletes. He's coached Western States top finishers, Ultraman winners, and plenty of swimmers towards age group nationals and Olympic trials. So whether you're an elite or just starting out, this guy knows what he's talking about, and he gets results, and he gets them the right way. I've been under Chris's wing since 2008, and I can honestly say that I would have never been able to accomplish the things that I have athletically without his coaching mentorship

and deft guiding hand. his coaching mentorship, and deft guiding hand. Also joining us today, albeit briefly, is my buddy Caroline Burkle. Besides being a total character, Burkle is a former Olympic medalist in swimming and now works as a personal development coach guiding young athletes. She swam at the University of Florida where she was a 23-time All-American and won two individual NCAA titles in the 200 free and the 500 free. She was named the 2008 NCAA Female Swimmer of the Year. She also broke the oldest then-standing women's NCAA record in the 500 free. That must have been held by Janet Evans.

I'm not sure. But she swam a 433, which is absolutely insane. And she's also a bronze medalist in the 4x200 free relay at the 2008 Olympics. Caroline then went on to earn a master's of science in sports psychology and motor behavior from the University of Tennessee. And now when she's not out training like a crazy person, she works in depth and intimately with young athletes under Rise Elite Athletes, which is a company that she founded that pairs Olympic athletes, a whole battery of Olympic athletes with young athletes for mentorship and guidance.

And I think that's just such a cool, great idea. I certainly wish something like that was available when I was a young athlete. In any event, like I said, she's a total character, super fun, an incredible athlete, and a definite value add to this conversation. Again, albeit briefly, but I do intend to bring her back on and have a full podcast episode with her in the near future. In any event, I'll explain the context of this conversation in a second, but first. Okay, so this conversation with Chris and Caroline is a bit on the shorter side compared to my usual conversation. So I thought I'd take the time to share another email from a fan. This is from somebody named Kelly.

And Kelly writes, Rich, I just wanted to email and thank you for the work that you do. I'm sure you get these a lot, but hope you find some of my comments encouraging. My wife and I, her name is Kelly too. Yes, we are Kelly and Kelly. I don't know how that works in your family.

That's gotta drive you crazy at times. I can't imagine. In any event, we adopted a plant-based diet about four months ago. We have always been what we thought was healthy, but this has taken things to a new level and it is sustainable. I am exercising not out of need, but because it's fun. Nothing hurts anymore outside of the normal good for your muscle soreness. I'm on the verge of coming up with some crazy goal that I hope fits into being a husband, raising three kids, and running a company. My wife makes fun of me now as I have replaced my man crush on Bobby Flay, the meat grilling guy on the Food Network with one for ritual. I'm touched. I'm honored. Your podcasts have been a great way for

me to think through a number of things, my health impact on my community and the world, focus, et cetera. The content is so rich. Sorry to be cheesy with the pun there. No worries. My wife and I were a big part of my wife's brother's story. That's a mouthful. Helping him get sober. Your story of how your psychologist gave you the ultimatum has so many parallels to how I handled the last days before he got to rehab. I smiled ear to ear reading the story in Finding Ultra. He lives in a guest house out back now, and he's doing amazingly well. Hearing your stories on AA and sobriety have helped us understand his world even better. He's getting there, ongoing plant-based, and soon, we hope. I have a heart for those in recovery with several working for me. I am now to the point where I think the world should follow some form of the 12 steps.

I agree with you on that, Kelly. Speaking of my office, since I went plant-based, four others have joined me. So many things to share, but I know your time for reading this is limited. On and on. Thank you, Kelly. That's amazing. Really appreciate you taking the time to reach out and share a bit of your story with me. And I just love that people get inspired by the content that I put out, but also it's about when

they actually make the changes. They implement the knowledge. They do the hard part. That's what inspires me. That's my fuel. And then to see that get passed on to other people and that domino effect occur, I mean, that is just, there's nothing better. So in any event, congrats, Kelly, keep rocking your turn to inspire. Okay. So if you follow me on Instagram or you listen to my most recent episode with Aubrey Marcus, then you know that I was up in Lake Tahoe last week for a brief, but productive altitude training camp with both Chris and Caroline in preparation for Otillo, this swim run ultra that I'm getting ready to compete in in just, I think it's going to be 18 days from the date of posting this podcast. It's essentially an eight or nine hour race, about, I don't know, 40 plus transitions between swimming and running in the archipelago

south of Stockholm, very cold water, tiny island hopping. It's like an adventure race. I'm super excited about it. I'm also intimidated. I'm humbled by the challenge. I'm a little bit afraid. And I don't know, this is a conversation about all of that. The training camp was super fun. It was very, very hard and also quite instructive in terms of helping me acclimate to the level of suffering that I'm soon going to be enduring. In any event, after a full training day last Friday, we all sat down to hash it out. And what follows is the results of that exchange. So we talk about O2 Low, the gear challenges. We've got all this crazy gear we got to wear and how do we manage all of that? How do we run in custom wetsuits with

our, you know, how do we swim in running shoes? How do we run carrying hand paddles? We talk about the unexpected heat. It was intended to be a cold water acclimation experience, but the water was pretty warm and it was like 80 degrees out in Lake Donner. So we talk about that. We talk about the level of patience required to excel at endurance sports, the benefits of training and entering a race with a partner, a teammate. And we talked to Caroline about training and overtraining and injury and injury prevention. Again, it's a short one, but it's great. And I hope you enjoy the listen.

Dude, I'm exhausted. Yeah, it was a fun day. It was a learning experience. But the good thing is, is that you went through the same struggles that I did the first time I came up here by myself. That's comforting emotions. I was alarmed about all the things that you experienced. I experienced the first time and I was worried too. Yeah. Well, let's provide a little context. We're up in Lake Tahoe, Donner Lake to be specific for a 48 hour training camp. And today, so we're at 6,000 feet of altitude. I can't tell you the last time I've been up in altitude, let alone trained at altitude. And today we put in an epic day of training of swim run.

It was the first time that we've, we've trained together except that one other time, but, but the first time that we trained together in the wetsuits with the running shoes on with the paddles with the whole shebang in uh what was supposed to be cold water yeah a little cold acclimation uh and we trained from like i don't know 6 30 to 1 30 or something like that 10 different swim run segments all over donner lake yeah and so break it down what do we do do you remember we started off with a three mile swim close to three mile swim across the lake from one end to the other basically almost the full length and then we ran back to where we started then we miles yeah we did a shorter swim which was supposed to be a little shorter but i got lost on time and next thing you know it was actually a 35 minute swim

versus uh um just a one mile swim and then we ran once around the lake which is approximately seven miles and then it started getting hot yeah that was the first time and then we threw in another few short swims with a few short runs and then we finished it up with another long run around the lake right it's about that was about was that five four i can't remember how long that final run was oh it's six miles oh is it six because we swam part of it yeah right we swam part of it because we jumped in on that one end swam to the beach and then jumped out and started running right and we're both wearing these prototype Roka wetsuits that are cut off just above the knee

and have full length on the sleeves, zip down the front, which is unusual for a wetsuit, have pockets on both quads where you can put a little nutrition or whatever you want. And we both had pull buoys strapped to our thighs with surgical tubing and so this is how we swam with the paddles with the pull buoys with the shoes on the whole time getting out of the water and then running with all this this gear in what quickly turned into

80 degree weather running in wetsuits at altitude around donner lake and it was it started out comical then it became uh excruciatingly painful at least for me I know you felt good but I was chasing your ankles all day long flat I was black wetsuit so in that sun and then you had a swim cap on the whole time yeah I did so that made it extra hot I finally had to tell you take that swim cap off while you're running yeah it was rough man I you know i've been doing plenty of swim runs in the pool and you know and and doing it in in hot weather you know in los angeles upwards of 100 105 this was a totally different deal like at home i actually feel good

running out of the pool i can easily throw down you know 7 15 715, 730 pace with a, you know, with a rational heart rate anywhere between 132 to 140. But today I was struggling to run 830 miles with a heart rate that was just skyrocketing, you know, like in the 160. Like I never get my heart rate up that high. It was crazy. So I presume that that is a factor of the 34 mile run that I did like two days ago, the altitude, uh, the heat and running in a wetsuit with all this gear I'm hoping, but it was, it was tough, man. It was definitely eyeopening for me and a little bit of an awakening and a little scared. Yeah.

I mean, well, we also shocked the system pretty hard. You just got back from an international trip, time change, sleep and all that. And then we right away threw you into a five hour run, which turned out to be 34 miles for you. And then 48 hours later, we're here at altitude. So we've never settled you and given you a time to absorb the load that we've been giving you. and giving you a time to absorb the load that we've been giving you. So, yeah, I mean, a lot happened today. But I think it was a really good experience for you, too, also to see those numbers, know you can continue, suffer a little bit, which is what we will be doing there. And it's good for the headspace, too.

Yeah. Normally, I would not have taken a two-week adventure, literally a month out from a huge race like this, but that's just life. And I went to Ireland and I was in Portland and I did my best to try to maintain some semblance of training when I was traveling, but it's not like it is at home, of course. So I came back, you know, lacking some fitness. I mean, maybe absorbing the fitness, the training that I had put in prior to that, but really kind of taking a break in the middle of, you know, what should have been a really intense period of ramping up. So my longest run prior to

those trips was about two hours and 40 minutes. And normally I would have stepped it up. You always have me step it up like three hours, three and a half, four, four and a half up to five. But I went from that two and a half hour, came back from my trip and threw down a five hour run, you know, without that kind of buildup. I mean, I can do it, but it's going to rattle me, you know, much more than it would have had I more responsibly, uh, you know, acclimated to that kind of load. Yeah. And I, in comparison for the last few weeks, I have been doing that, right. And I've also had some recovery in between, but i did the three and a half then the four and a half and so then the five two days ago because we synced up our training plans this

week so that we come in exactly with the same load same training and so on so that we could mimic everything here just right and yeah i you know it's a different process for me right and you know also out of fairness i've been doing this for years now, long runs. And you're sort of building into this realm. I mean, when's the last time you did a 34-mile run? Oh, man. I mean, I don't even know. I was having some, like, niggles and stuff ramping up to Ultraman 2011, and running was challenging for me.

So I don't even know if I put in, like, a 40-mile run prior to that race race so i think it's been 2009 was the last time i put in like big time runs yeah you might have a recovery week next week i know just to absorb this shock to the system that we just did we're three weeks out a couple observations on today the first thing is i thought the whole pull buoy strapped to the quad thing was going to be a pain in the butt and get in the way and just be annoying. But actually, it was no big deal. Totally comfortable with that. And the idea of swimming with shoes and then running in wet shoes with socks, I was concerned about that. But we both found shoes that seemed to work well with our feet.

And that didn't bother me at all. I was surprised about that. that seemed to work well with our feet. And that didn't bother me at all. I was surprised about that. The thing I think I was most surprised beyond what I already said, just it being as difficult as it was today, was how hot I was getting. The rubber on this wetsuit, especially around the quads, is super thick. And it was a hot day out.

And it's unbelievable how overheated you get running. It's like, who runs in a wetsuit? Nobody does that. It's like, that's what wrestlers do to lose weight to make weight you know what i mean i was thinking that a few times today as we were running around the lake some of those people must have been looking at us are those guys trying to lose weight or something yeah it's funny uh there's a loop around donner lake and this is high season there's a lot of people here on vacation etc people are out paddle you know on their paddle boards and boating and running and biking and all that kind of stuff and

here's two guys running down the street in wetsuits holding holding bright orange hand paddles in their hands while they're running with a pull buoy strapped to their leg yeah a pull buoy strap and i'm wearing a swim cap you know brightly it's like i thought we'd get a lot more like strange looks than we did. And people are like, whatever, I guess. You know, maybe that's just the vibe out here in Truckee. Yeah, I know they're used to seeing a lot of triathletes up here from the years of the Ironman up here. And so a lot of people asked me today, probably about six, are you guys training for a triathlon? And so I said, no, actually, we're doing something a little different.

Right. So what do we have left? What's your takeaway from today? What do we have to work on still? I thought we had pretty good communication. I was disappointed that I wasn't able to hold pace with you, at least on the swimming. And maybe that's just for the reasons we've already stated. But overall, I feel like our communication is good. We're in sync. I just have to bridge that gap a little bit more, I think, over the reasons we've already stated. But overall, I feel like our communication is

good. Like we're in sync. I just have to bridge that gap a little bit more, I think, over the next three weeks. Yeah. And I'm not really too worried about your fitness come the day, because we just needed that day. We didn't need it today. The good communication, yeah. And I think we also have a good unspoken language of knowing that when you need something or when you don't. And no, that worked well today. I would say the thing that we both noticed was the hand paddles too, how much harder it is getting back in and then using those muscles after just having swum a lot. Of course, we stacked our day a little bit differently. Nobody's going to be doing a three mile swim to start Otillo, right? That's's we basically did half the distance right to start off of the full

otillo distance so um but still it it is eye-opening how you have to be aware of that and then i think the other thing we'll want to pay more attention to is our transitions they were somewhat slow yeah um and these were i took my cap off and then how am i supposed to put my cap on and i'm holding these hand paddles and like trying to get my goggles on you know it's like that's a mess well we have to just figure i mean with that many transitions a minute here and there will quickly turn into an hour right right because that that time just adds up so often so much and then other than that though it went pretty smoothly i mean i know we're both praying for that cold water although i know come

race day we're not going to be praying for yeah not that cold yeah exactly and um yeah but there's just the learning of today and then applying it specifically for these next three weeks to really incorporate those last details that we'll need. One of the questions that always comes up that people are asking me is like, how are you fueling these workouts? Like, what are you eating? And I don't often respond to those because it's kind of a boring answer. Like I don't overthink it too much. I mean, we woke up at five 30, I had a bowl of cereal and what, you know, what did you, you had, I think you had the same, I ate a banana, I had a cup of coffee and then we went and then we had some little bars that we chewed on at a couple of the transitions and we made sure that we were drinking water. We used your, your pickup truck as kind of a home

base, um, where we had some nutrition products there, but it wasn't like we were carrying, like I wasn't like we were carrying like i wasn't carrying nutrition with me or anything like that like it we kept it pretty minimal i don't think we yeah we gapped it pretty well and i thought i think we also gapped it well enough in in comparison to the race because there it's going to be 45 to 60 minutes between those energy stations and so i want us to be ready to just go that long and feel a little bit of hunger and know what to grab and be prepared as we're going into that i mean that's the things those are the little details where we as a team working together it's going to be real effective

because we'll be able to communicate say what we want know what we're kind of calories where we're looking for going into each aid station, energy station, and then come out of it pretty efficiently. The minutes we're spending putting on caps at transitions, we might make up in those aid stations. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think Hunter McIntyre was the person who told me, he's like, you just got to keep moving. Like, just keep moving. Because I think you're right. The transitions, I think, are where people are stopping, or you're looking for your partner, or you get spaced out from that person and there's a lot of pausing and looking around and fiddling around with your gear and like you said that stuff adds

up so minimizing that I think is going to be key I'm a little worried about that yeah I mean we'll be fine we'll be fine and that's the fun thing too a team, I can help you through that logistics time, right? Like, Rich, are we thinking of this? Are we doing this? We're just constantly communicating. And that'll be important with those shorter distances, 300-meter swim, 500-meter run, like that we're talking, you know, and that we know what's coming up ahead. Not that we know the distances or what island it is, but that we know what we're getting ourselves all right we got a short swim here let's really try to stretch it out push a

little bit and then recover on that next longer island or we're in hour three right now we still want to hold back here a little bit nutrition fueling is going well we're well hydrated our strategy is x and therefore this is what we're going to do for the next 45 minutes, no matter what the terrain or the water brings, because we just want to manage our energy levels pretty efficiently through the day so that we can do things faster when we're able to, when the road opens up, when the terrain allows it for us, like you and I bushwhacking like it will be. That's not our strength.

That's where we need to get through it efficiently and not using a lot of energy. But then when the road opens up and we have some pavement or flatter trails or steady effort, then we can start pushing a little bit deeper. Right, right, right. So we've been breaking open, like looking at the website and all the requirements and all the stuff we got to get like we got to get we have do we each have to carry a first aid pack um i think as a team the first aid pack but we each have a whistle yeah we have to carry a whistle we put that around our neck right yeah and that's i mean what if you get into trouble that's yeah for the safety of uh the the swim vessels that will come and help you right and it's nothing guaranteed but it just helps and they i mean remember the history of this race you used to have to carry so much safety equipment keep in

mind when they started this race you had to swim with a life vest like the full ones that you used to have on a boat right and that you had to you could barely swim because your arms are just sticking out the side. And it would take the swimmer's part of the race out of it because nobody can swim faster than that. And so they've reduced the safety gear over the years to that whistle, that first aid kit, and then a compass. Yeah, the compass. That's the best thing. We were joking the other day at dinner.

Like, what would I even do with this? How is this going to help me like hey zero what do i do with the compass which way is north like i don't know what direction i'm going yeah you know if i have to break out the compass i got bigger problems yeah well how about we'll just stay in one place and wait till another team comes blow the whistle really loud until somebody comes that's that's my plan yeah so, all right. So we got three weeks left. What's this window going to look like? We'll start pulling back here pretty quickly. I mean, we definitely need to recover from this week.

This was a big week and it's good to just have felt that fatigue and working our way through it the way we did. I mean, going through the difficulties of a steady five hour day, five and a half hour day like today is important, because it just puts you back into that mindset of just keep trucking, right? Let's just keep moving forward. Don't overanalyze the pace. Don't overanalyze the heart rate. Just keep moving forward, right? You start doing a little bit of self talk. And there's times today where on that for a reason i ran ahead of you because i wanted you to reacquaint yourself with that um and and that's what we'll need where you

just sort of have that silent communication of saying you know what we'll just give him his space in his quiet time you're running ahead and then all that all that means is i start looking at my watch and i start looking at my heart rate and my pace. I start like flogging myself. Yeah. But no, that's good. I mean, yeah, obviously we've got to absorb this training. And then, you know. Then we're two weeks out.

And then we've got to do a little refining on the speed stuff, I would imagine. And maybe work on some of the logistics around transitions and some of the technique stuff. Well, we'll be doing some transition stuff, some trail stuff too. I'd like to get us a little bit more familiar with the bushwhacking aspect, which I've done some research, but I just want us to get even more unfamiliar with it. And I say unfamiliar because it's something

that you can't really prepare for that terrain over in Sweden, but at least that we've done some running through that and see what that's going to be like. I mean, that's just going off trail, basically, for us. So today we weren't wearing compression socks, and like I said earlier, our wetsuits just were capped above the knee. But with all the brambles and all the kind of stuff that we're going to encounter,

it's been advised that we wear some form of compression sock just so you're not getting yourself all scratched up. and i think they even have products that are like buoyant shin guards or whatever for extra buoyant like there's all kinds of you can go down the rabbit hole and all this kind of thing and that's i mean that's overall the big picture strategy and it's been it from the very beginning that our fitness allows us to overcome things that we really aren't familiar with with this race right of course we could do it this year and then try to go back next year where we have some familiarity and then you get more specific with it but because we don't know the race the best way to compensate for that

besides ask friends and get more input is to be extra fit for it right and extra prepared and and for us also rested like we don't want to waste fitness leave fitness up on a on a malibu canyon run instead of in sweden right yeah i think if we have a strength it is that endurance base you know putting in those huge days and the weakness is you know unfamiliarity with the terrain and what this race is all about and just inexperience with this kind of event overall yeah yeah but i mean that's part of the fun right we're doing it as a team yeah and and like we said from the beginning we're doing this for fun you guys like we're not winning this i mean like we're competitive people we're gonna we're gonna try to you know do the best

that we can and like be in the hunt and all that kind of good stuff, but you know, we're not delusional. And you know, had, had this performance go, like, had that been my, you know, on my radar, like I wouldn't have gone to Ireland. I wouldn't have done these. I would have, I would have had a different kind of focus going into this, but that's not my life right now. And you know, it's cool. Like I said on Instagram and then you, you chastise me. Cause I was, cause it's like, this is a team thing, you know? So my primary motivator is, yeah, I want to do well,

but I don't want to let you down. Our destinies are inextricably tethered to each other. Well, and that brings up a good point. The motivation that you've had over the last six months has been helped knowing that you're working with a teammate. And in a lot of cases with a lot of people listening or just in general with health and fitness is it's hard by yourself.

But if you have somebody that you're not necessarily accountable to, but that you're looking forward to doing this with, it might be a really good thing for everybody just to consider what do I need to get myself motivated to train more consistently, maybe a event with a partner or a challenge with a partner, because it does help. And as you've probably seen the last few months, whether in Ireland, or as you've been traveling, or just

getting up on some of those hard mornings, where it's like, I got to do this, I love to do it for myself. But there's a little extra, you know, with i'm racing with somebody right and i want to do well with them for them as a team yeah for sure um i'm excited i'm i'm a little bit scared after today as we should be i think it's just it's ramping up my my attention like my sort of focus on what needs to be done between now and then yeah and and back to what you said with regards to us not winning i think in a lot of sports um it's somewhat for lack of a better term disrespectful for us to think that we can just train for nine months and come in there and something we've never done and these people have been training for years right and there's a whole circuit there's a circuit these guys are doing these races all the time.

They know exactly how this stuff works. And so for us to say, oh, we want to get top three or top five or whatever the number is, I think is not fair to the sport either. We want to make a good showing. We want to represent ourselves. We want to have fun. That's the key thing too. And, you know, just have a great day in a great location at a great adventure i mean that's the that's the ideal yeah that's a very good point and it

has it has been fun i mean i think it's been a refreshing you know reprieve from the grind of triathlon or just ultra running because it is so adventure based like we're we're cracking up on the uh we have burkle over here caroline burkle i'm gonna bring you on the mic in a second but we were laughing so hard this morning on the dock like you put your wetsuit on backwards first and i'm like how do i put this pull buoy thing out it's like a comedy of errors like we're just trying to figure out like how do we do this you know it's like and we're three weeks out it's like yeah we should have probably done this several months ago or done

one of these camps like every month leading up to this to be responsible life doesn't allow that i know and it's what it is and there's this there's a um there's something cool about just kind of letting all that go and just being like it is for fun and but keep in mind all this we've gotten through it healthy we're not injured right i mean that's the hardest part if you get too tense with this and too focused on a lot of this stuff especially ultra endurance stuff this is an eight to nine hour 10 hour 11 hour event you can quickly push yourselves to something that you're not familiar with that you're getting injured yeah and that's our goal we wanted to come into this fit somewhat ready right have fun and be ready to give it our best on a challenging hard course i mean this place is notorious for being really hard yeah um even the locals say i mean that whole arch

plago out there supposedly is just bizarre i mean there's it's just really tough exposed different and we're just gonna swim and run across it right so it's it's called uto i think it's the town and when we arrive um the day is it the day before the race we take a ferry to this island it's an island yeah the furthest one when we're starting, yeah. And then all the competitors and everybody associated with the race camps out there, and we're in, like, tents or something like that. Like, I still don't even know. We're roughing it. Yeah, we're roughing it.

We have a certain feed time for dinner. Right, and then it's a 4 a.m. wake-up call, and then we do it. But we're sequestered. It's not like we're starting in Stockholm or something like that. Like, we're out there in the middle of nowhere for this thing. Yeah. We're going to meet a bunch of great competitors and people. And I mean, that's just all so unique and it's a different adventure.

Every piece of it. Like, can you imagine at an Ironman or an ultra taking every competitor and sequestering them for 24 hours prior to the race? People would be freaking out. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Speaking of injuries, Burkle, get on the mic here for a second. Here, slide that over to her for a minute.

So we have Caroline Burkle here who is a former Olympian in swimming. Hey, guys. Let's go. Swam for the University of Florida. And she had the best intentions of competing at Udalloe with Hillary. Udalloe. I'm going to get excoriated for not saying it right.

We need to figure this out. I'm trying really hard, you guys. I really am. Caroline was going to be competing with Hilary Biscay, former podcast guest, Ultraman World Champion. But due to, well, Caroline got an injury. You have a serious bone fracture in your heel. Yeah.

So that opted you out. It's the first time I heard the word calcaneus in my life. It's a joke. But yeah, calcaneal stress fracture. You showed me the x-ray. It's for real. Yeah, it's a joke but yeah calcaneal stress factor and you showed me the x-ray it's it's for real yeah it's pretty gnarly and i didn't know about it until about six weeks after i did it apparently so i kept pushing it running on it which you just touched on you know not being injured and being healthy and going through something. This has been the biggest learning lesson for me,

just going through something and knowing now how to train versus not logging stuff, not paying attention, just running miles in the mountains without paying attention. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, one of the things that Chris is really good about is tempering that desire to ramp up too quickly and being very diligent and erring on the side of less is more in terms of ramping up the running in particular to avoid just these very scenarios. Well, and it's important too. I mean, obviously, none of us have done a race like this,

but it's important when you're in a position of endurance training that you're keeping your strength in these little places of your body that you don't even realize that you need strength in. So I've learned the importance of your feet throughout this process. I'm like doing towel grabs and like golf ball grabs with my toes and things like that. Before I would have laughed and scoffed at that. And now it's, it's so important. And so never underestimate the power. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, it was it was a bummer because we had this whole plan. We were going to be all these crazy Americans going over to, you know, meet this underestimate the power yeah yeah yeah well it was it was a bummer because we had this whole plan we were going to be all these crazy americans going over to you know meet this race head on it was going to be you and hillary and then hunter mcintyre was uh partnering up with your friend

rory right and then that's not happening either so now it's just chris and i injured so now she's just chris and i the americans are doing the emissary has been you know but look in all seriousness like you guys you've said it so many times in this podcast and i've so far and i've wanted to say something but i was really trying to be quiet over here in the corner however you guys you know you nailed it with just not knowing sometimes is best you may not know the terrain you may not know the race. And sometimes I feel like going into something with a little bit more of a naive attitude. It's like, think like a child, childlike mind. Like when you go into it with an idea and you have a plan and you know, you're fit.

And like you said, you have your fitness. It's fun. Like sometimes you can overthink when you have so much that you're supposed to be knowing and memorizing and all this. And I think that the whole fun of it will be like, where are we going? What's going on? Let's talk during this 500 meter dash across. No, there's something beautiful about that. It provides that space for just like fun and joy. Like I remember the first time I did Ultraman, like my crew is my dad.

You know, I'm like this other buddy of mine who had no like it was like it's over thanksgiving weekend so it's really hard to find people to help you out because everybody has plans and i got this rag tag crew of buddies and my dad to come out and like we didn't know anything you know but that made it super fun yeah you know so i sort of look at this and you know through a similar lens and yeah and you remember that the most i mean sure other races and, you know, you've got it all going on, but you remember the ones the most that are just like, well, here we go. And it's cool that even though you have this injury, I mean, you've been walking around in a boot, you're not in the boot anymore, but that you were just game to come up to Tahoe for the weekend,

even though you can't run, to like do the swim and just kind of hang out. Yeah, I mean, you know, I took swimming for granted forever. When I retired from pool swimming and professional swimming. I hated it for so long. And now I absolutely will never again take it for granted just because it is something that no impact for the rest of your life. If you can do it, it's incredible. And there's nothing like a swimming high when you just are done swimming. Even today, that three miles across, I mean, that transition was pretty quick afterwards, guys. But, you know, we're all talking and having fun. That was sarcasm, by the way.

We're all talking and having fun, and I was just like, you know, you all went off on your run, and I'm standing there in my car, and I was like, that was unbelievable. We just crushed, you know, three miles at 6, 7 a.m., and it felt like 20 seconds of time that just although looking over and seeing oh my god stroke was not fun yeah i know let's be clear caroline was way out front yeah like just

for the record she's way ahead of us and then she'd roll onto her back and fix her goggles and i'm like back there going oh my god i looked i was doing backstroke at one point and i see you pop your head up and just like start shaking your head at me. I was like, time out. You all have shoes on and a buoy. And I did not. I was totally shoeless. So technically I had an advantage.

You guys were crushing it. You're ridiculously fit. Are you one of those people that just never retired and you just stayed fit? I took a week off. I took a week off. And I think I did Pilates during that week. After that, I was like, all right, I signed up for like three Ragnar relays in a span of six months. And I was like, let's do this. I was lifting every single day still. Well, every

other day, but I mean that, but then again, you know, we can go on a whole nother topic with that, but maybe a little time off was needed in this, this injury of six to eight weeks. No, it's, I mean, six to eight weeks in the boot, but it's been about 12 since I have run at all, stepped foot even in that direction. But I think my adrenals are finally repaired, you know, and sometimes you've got to listen to your body. Yeah, I want to do like a whole podcast with you because I want to get like your whole story because it's super interesting.

I do like a whole podcast with you because I want to get like your whole story because it's super interesting. That's not today. But I do want you to tell that story that you told the other last night about the adrenal fatigue. Yeah. Yeah. There's a lot to it. So with the waking up in the middle of the night with the sweats and all that. Night sweats, just drenched. I don't think I went at night without it.

So like your whole swimming career, waking up in the night with night sweats. I mean, I have photos of my bedsheets just drenched. And I would send them to, we'd send them in to the doctors. And I mean, I'm not sitting here. No, I don't want anybody to pity me or anything. It was just one of those things that's alarming. And you don't know, but you got to keep going. You don't have a choice.

You don't have a choice. You got to keep going. I mean, I guess I did have a choice. I could have said no, but I don't think Greg Troy would have been super stoked at me. Clearly, it's an indication of adrenal fatigue. 100%. But you may not even feel tired. Like if that's happening even in your, you feel good.

Like I'm not overtrained, you know, but it's so deep because it's years and years and years without, you know, taking the requisite, you know, rest weeks or those down periods that allow your, like your, your base to like reset so that you can, you know, have longevity in your career. And so learning how to feel yourself properly to repair those adrenals is huge. And so having the stress fracture, you said, correct me if I'm wrong, but you said the other night, like just the other day was like the first night that you didn't wake up with, with bed sweats. And like, as long as you can remember. Yeah. About two weeks ago, I called my doctor and said, Oh my gosh, you know, and he's an herbal, you know, he's, he's an unbelievable, um, naturopath. And I was just like, I can't believe it. I just woke up without sweating for like three, four nights in a row. And it was weird. Like I, I noticed that I woke up without it and it it was exciting

but then of course you know you have that athlete mind where you're like well that means i'm not training right but then i had to call you have to calm yourself back down and say this is in two months this is going to be this is going to pay off like i think it might be the best thing that ever happened to you ever 100 you would you're the kind of person who would have just dug your grave and just, you know, grind it until like your body just caved in completely. I would have gone one more week on my heel. It would have broken all the way through and I would have put six pins in it.

Yeah. I mean like the, the image was not happy. It is like cracked in half your heel. Like, and that's just from run. That's insane. Yeah.

So, and you know, you, I thought I knew my body and I'm honor that. And I always have told myself, Oh, you are so in tune with your body. And now this is humbling for me to take a step back and be like, maybe I'm not, maybe, maybe I need to be real with myself. And I think we all have a reminder in that and it, your body changes every year and you know, I'm not 20 anymore. Yeah. And if you take that seriously, then, then you'll be able to go to a whole different level, I think. And you'll have much more longevity and you'll

be healthier and you'll just be able to compete with, you know, joy and without that kind of fatigue, like who, you know, I mean, we're from different eras, but, you know, Chris and I will both tell you, like, I slept walk through my, you know, teens and 20s. Like, I didn't even know what was going on. You know, I was so exhausted all the time. Yeah, yeah. And I mean, I think I lost 15 pounds

when I was done swimming. I didn't know how to do anything for my body. All I was doing was cardio, no strength training, wasn't eating properly, wasn't sleeping. And I don't think even a year ago, I could have made that three mile swim without stopping 10 times and wanting to die. And today it was just like, it felt incredible, you know, and I, it was, it's, there's just something that, you know, and of course it's like three miles eight years ago would be a laughing stock when we're doing that for warmup. But now it's like, yeah, you know, when you're in open water and you're just,

you just feel incredible. So, and it's no easy feat. So yeah, I think that, and also it's taught me a lot when we're working with our teen athletes and working with them on injuries or overcoming things like that. Like I have a whole new respect and a whole new understanding. So it helps me do what I do better and able to impact that generation to slow down, be patient, listen to your body, and learn how to listen to your body. Because there's so many distractions now. Yeah, here, so give it back to Chris.

Yeah, yeah, back, Mike. Slide it back here. No, no, no, because I want to, it's a natural segue anyway because. But it's hard to learn the signals. Like we learned the signals in swimming over so many years what to look for. Like, for example, with your heel, that's not really something that you would have noticed because that's not an injury you would never get swimming.

So we also, it takes a while to learn the different aspects of listening to your body and it's it's very complicated and it's not a perfect science either many people will give you different inputs of what different things mean i mean night sweats you can ask 10 doctors they'll give you five different answers yeah so and if from anything from nutrition to overtraining to, you know, chronic fatigue, even going that far into the into the hole. So in the course of your coaching, I mean, triathletes tend to be well-heeled type A, highly driven personalities. And talking them down off that cliff has got to be a challenge when they want to just run and gun. Yeah. On the one hand, I don't work with a lot of athletes that aren't willing to understand that.

And that means I turn down or after some time, some athletes just aren't willing to do that and we don't work together anymore. But I always quote to them that if you're thinking about getting fit, that'll be the easy part. Like I can get you fit. Just be patient. We'll get you really fit, fitter than you've ever been before. But if we try to jump the gun on this, your fitness is, it's never going to materialize, right? We're going to be in four weeks from now.

You're either going to be off the program program not logging your workouts because you feel guilty that you're not logging your workouts right and you're injured or you're too tired or you can't make it fit and we talked about this last right it's like making it all balance as a master's athlete with work and family and life you just have to be patient because the fitness is building and again to what carolyn just said is that's so many years of swimming and so on that that won't go away like you think four or five months right well oh my god like gone forever right two weeks when we took off two weeks once a year swimming and germany it was like over oh my god like i'm to need a six-month rebuild. Like, you're like, what? No.

But it's so deep in your system. And sort of what I was alluding to before, you took five years of lighter training. And it took you only six months to get back to pretty good fitness that you can walk in or walk out the door and run 34 miles with no real proper buildup. Now, we do have to be careful now the next few days that we don't. This is where the niggles show up in 10 days. What you did on Tuesday, if we're not smart, something will creep up, and then you'll be really bummed 10 days prior. So we really got to be careful with this window. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

I mean, because this is not the normal protocol. We would have built up much more responsibly. So they say you can't cram for an event. So there's a little bit of a cram here that that ordinarily would not be the program. But in my experience of working with you, one thing that you always do is you just you wait way longer than even I knowing you and knowing how you work like, okay, I'm ready, you know, like, I'm ready to come on, when is the hard work? Like, I'm ready for the harder workouts. No like, okay, I'm ready. You know, like I'm ready to, come on. When is the hard work? Like I'm ready for the harder workouts. You're like, no, no, no, not yet. You know, you gotta, you gotta, you gotta, uh, you gotta train to train and then you gotta train to train and then you gotta train and then you train, you know, but if you jump that

gun, like you just see it all the time. People are getting injured, injured because the lungs and the cardio, like that comes along quick. And then you're i'm i'm good i'm ready to i'm ready to go yeah but your whole body is a fine-tuned machine that everything has to work in sync to do the volume that we're talking about we're not talking about a two-hour workout here we're talking about six seven eight hours you know at a time at some pretty high intensities, if we're getting ready for a triathlon, or, you know, this type of stuff. I mean, it's a lot on the body and people underestimate just because they feel good today and tomorrow that they're ready on during the weekend or whenever in three, four days to do it again. And no, it takes longer. It takes longer. Patience. You know, I mean, patience in the context of years.

That's why it's endurance sports. It's a natural filter. If you don't have the patience, the best athletes will not be able to materialize. If you're patient, you will get fit. And it will blossom more than you ever thought it would be. I mean, some of the signs that i always talk about with regards to fitness is when you finish a half ironman or an ironman and you recover in 10 to 12 days and you're excited to train again and you're ready to go

that's a sign of fitness right not that i'm going to let them train right away but they're that quickly recovered they're not sore for weeks or they're not not um low energy for weeks they're not walking around and needing sleep and so on for weeks they're just popping right back and that's real deep fitness it's the awareness yeah the awareness that's right so right before this little jaunt up here you were in boulder and you were at the endurance coaches conference yeah yeah so i'm interested in we talked a little bit about the other day but i'm interested kind of in what's going on in that community like what are the coaches talking about what's new what's tried and true like what is your relationship to that you know situation he's putting me right on

the spot no i don't want to talk about anything you're not comfortable talking about no it's it's it's funny you know i think a lot of people listening to this are, I need a coach. How do I find a coach? Who are the coaches? They're poking around the internet. What's available? Well, that's a different question with regards to finding a coach because I get a lot of those questions too. But from a Boulder standpoint, I did not really take part because I really like to stay an outsider.

And I talked to two or three coaches up there that I know and I'm good friends with, and they're very similar. They like to stay on the outside. I like to learn from different sports, my own activities, a lot of reading, a lot of input. I don't like to, for lack of a better description, conform to these rules of how to teach triathlon right um i think after 20 years of coaching this and sort of keeping those athletes healthy motivated athletes coming back years later saying man i never felt as fit and healthy and non-injured as i did back those years now they can't train like that anymore with kids and life and so on, but that's the rule. That's the compliment to me that they love that time,

that they use that window in their time of life to get fit and healthy and carry that for years and years forward. Right. And maintain some sort of healthy and fit lifestyle. But yeah, no, I didn't really partake in the festivities in Boulder. Okay. So in the reading, like you said, you know, you try to get your information from, you're trying to stay up on what's going on. Like, has there been anything that you've come across in the last year or two that's altered your perspective or that you've incorporated into your training that's different from maybe what you were doing four or five years ago um like has it evolved or do you just um it's definitely evolved um especially from a nutrition standpoint it's evolved um from a recovery standpoint and even more the need of recovery and sleep and how we're doing our macro cycles versus the intensities that we're training and also the importance of

really separating athletes that they do not fit any type of plan which is back to the whole coaching according to conformed plans right here's your plan exactly it i found that no two athletes are the same and one person with a little bit of intensity and a lot of endurance does great. And that same person that looks the same, has trained the same, has the same background, blows up with that. And it's just a lot of listening. It's a lot of communicating. And then a lot of my athletes will laugh when they hear this. But it's also a lot of saying, you know what?

Don't overthink it. You've got to get in these next six months because we've got to build that platform properly. And then we can start messing around with different types of training because then you're ready. Cool. All right. Well, let's close this thing down.

What do we got going tomorrow? We have a two-hour trail run. We're going to head up to the Pacific Crest, which is absolutely gorgeous. What do we got going tomorrow? We have a two-hour trail run. We're going to head up to the Pacific Crest, which is absolutely gorgeous. What's the elevation up there? Yeah. We're going to go start about 8,000 feet. Oh, my God. And we're going to go up to—

Six isn't enough. Yeah. But it's just so pretty. You have to see it. I know. I'm so shellacked right now. The idea of doing a 14-mile run at like 8,000 feet tomorrow— Well, it won't be 14 miles on trails as well as with that elevation as well.

It's just too hard to do that. It'll probably be 11 to 12. You get in six miles an hour when you're running on a steep slope. But we're doing these in our shorts, right? We're not doing this in a wetsuit. Okay. That would definitely get some looks up there. Yes, and a swim cap.

People think we're going to fly off that ridge. then uh we'll start with a swim in the morning nice long stretch out swim full-on just recovery we'll swim backstroke and we'll make her do like butterfly right we're gonna have to yeah and then when we get back like we've been training in the the biggest paddles available and we're gonna to step it down to some smaller ones. Exactly. Which I'm looking forward to. Yeah. I felt that today. Oh, man.

Every single time. I didn't think I would. I mean, someone in a pool, I just crank with paddles. Like I didn't expect to feel that like lactic acid buildup in the shoulders and the lats like that. Cool, man. Well, I'm psyched to be here. 48-hour training camp. This is great, man. We should do more of these.

Yeah. These are awesome. Quick in, quick out. Let's just just choose destinations around the country i got a five o'clock flight what are we doing tomorrow we'll get back down to sacramento we're all going home yeah cool we're planning catalina too okay yeah there's lots of plans happening we'll see what happens you know exactly yeah let's just get through this race, you know, first. And then we'll talk about what comes after. Caroline. Okay. And Caroline, will you come back and do the podcast with me properly?

And we'll tell your whole story. 100%. Awesome. Damn. Cool. All right. Thanks, you guys. Let's try to do one more.

Maybe like when we're in Stockholm right before the race. That'd be great. Certainly after, if time permitting or whatever. Yeah. Do a post-race download. Yeah. We definitely have to do that. right before the race and certainly after time permitting or whatever yeah post race download yeah we definitely have to do that people's gonna be stories to tell for sure whatever happens so anyway all right thanks you guys appreciate it peace All right, we did it. Short but sweet.

Hope you guys enjoyed that. I'm interested in your feedback on these coaches' corners. I'm really enjoying doing them. You guys seem to be enjoying them. I think it's cool to kind of expand out of my typical format, branch out a little bit. So send me a little feedback. Hit me up on Twitter, Instagram, Facebook. I'm just at Rich Roll in most places, pretty easy to find. For more on Chris, go to

AIMPcoaching.com or at AIMPcoach on Twitter. Chris has also been on the show on the podcast many, many times in the past, all the way back to episode 21, also episode 256. We've done a couple of coaches' corners. There was a Skype interview in episode 285 with Louis Cole. And then again on episode 297. It's all searchable on my site. For more on Burks, go to riseeliteathletes.com. That's her website, her coaching mentoring website. website, her coaching mentoring website. And you can also find her on Instagram at at Caro Burkle, C-A-R-O-B-U-R-C-K-L-E. Don't forget that C. She's got a great Instagram account,

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