The Rich Roll Podcast - Phil Stutz & Elise Loehnen Share Tools For Inner Well-being, How To Embrace Pain, Uncertainty & Constant Work As Divine Invitations, & Why Everything You’re Avoiding Will Transform Your Life

Episode Date: April 14, 2025

Phil Stutz is the legendary psychiatrist, author, and protagonist in the Netflix documentary “Stutz.” Alongside co-author and writer Elise Loehnen, they explore their new book “True & False Magic.”   This conversation delves into “Part X”—the destructive force within us all—along with Universe 1 vs. Universe 2 thinking, and how pain, uncertainty, and constant work serve as unavoidable portals to growth. Together, they present actionable tools and a profound spiritual framework for living fully.   Along the way, Phil illustrates concepts with hand-drawn diagrams, while Elise translates these insights into everyday practice.    Their complementary wisdom offers a rare treasure—an invitation to a more expansive way of being. Enjoy!   Show notes + MORE Watch on YouTube Newsletter Sign-Up   Today’s Sponsors: iFit: Use the code RICHROLL to get 10% off any purchase of $999+ 👉NordicTrack.com/richroll On: High-performance shoes & apparel crafted for comfort and style 👉on.com/richroll  Bon Charge: Get 15% OFF all my favorite wellness products w/ code RICHROLL 👉 boncharge.com                  AG1: Get a FREE bottle of Vitamin D3+K2 AND 5 free AG1 Travel Packs 👉drinkAG1.com/richroll         Squarespace: Use the code RichRoll to save 10% off your first purchase of a website or domain 👉Squarespace.com/RichRoll   BetterHelp: Get 10% OFF the first month👉BetterHelp.com/richroll                            Check out all of the amazing discounts from our Sponsors 👉 richroll.com/sponsors   Find out more about Voicing Change Media at voicingchange.media and follow us @voicingchange

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by reconnecting you with this very Y. So whether you're finding joy in your pace or rediscovering your love for running, if it fills your cup. That is a soft win we're celebrating. To explore your own soft wins and check out the new Cloud Surfer 2, head to on.com slash Rich Roll. Every human being has a enemy inside themselves, everyone. Everybody has some set of assumptions about the character and the shape of the universe. What's out there is chaos as far as we think because we don't know what it is.

If you want to have faith, you just have to take it. For whatever bizarre evolutionary reason, the human animal just doesn't seem to be a huge fan of uncertainty. So much of our thinking is all oriented around denying it to perpetuate this illusion of security. But uncertainty is reality. Or as psychiatrist Phil Stutz puts it, one of the three unavoidable truths of life. You might remember Phil from the fantastic Netflix documentary, Stutz, or from his appearance

on this very show about a year ago. Well, today Phil returns, this time accompanied by Elise Lonen, his co-author in the new book, True and False Magic, a podcast host and celebrated writer in her own right, whose insights have helped countless people navigate life's challenging terrain. We're all stuck in our own dioramas in the Natural History Museum, and the things that don't fit into our worldview are out of sight, but they're still present.

Whatever projection, whatever image you have is wrong. In the sense that it doesn't even exist, it's a representative of nothing. Together, they make the case for why uncertainty is not our enemy. Because the very confrontations we find ourselves running away from actually are doorways to everything meaningful in life. Quick note before we get into it,

Phil suffers from Parkinson's disease, but what suffers no impairment is his wisdom. People think that they need to sun the moon and the stars to be lined up properly and then maybe they'll be strong enough, no. Well, Phil, Elise, delighted to have you guys here today. Thank you. So excited to talk about the new book.

And I just wanna say up top, up front, Phil, our first conversation together was really impactful for me and very meaningful. And subsequent to that, my wife and I had a session with you and it was a real wake-up call for me. You really identified something in me with your x-ray vision that was very astute. And so I just wanna thank you for that.

Yeah, I think the main part of my job that's accessible is just to see, do they know what part X is? Have we discussed it? Yeah, we talked a little bit about it, but you know, it's been a minute. I don't wanna presume that anybody who's watching or listening to this, you know, can remember what we talked about

or even enjoyed that episode. Okay, so every human being has a enemy inside themselves, everyone, it's not, and I don't agree with the, um, kind of the new age assumption that it's the people who've been traumatized the most or who've had the worst experience possible. I mean, those people count. And obviously the part X, what we're talking about, the destructive part, is going nuts in them. The part X, what we're talking about, the destructive part,

is going nuts in them. But what's happening, and it's really interesting, is that inner enemy is now spreading. So you can see something, which on a individual basis, it's easier to see. But I can't say how many people have come up to me in the last, I would say three weeks and say, what the fuck is going on?

I have no idea what to do, what I'm supposed to do. Yeah, I mean, I think basically what you're getting at is like, what is the diagnosis for America right now? It's fucking crazy out there. And all the rules, you know, are just sort of out the window and it feels like chaos and it's fucking crazy out there. And all the rules are just sort of out the window and it feels like chaos. And it's forcing us to confront our own relationship with uncertainty and the anxiety that that's producing

because we're seeing things kind of unfold rapidly, especially in Los Angeles with the fires and all this sort of thing, like what is happening, right? And so there's the individual diagnosis and how the part X and the tools and things that we talk about in this book are applicable, but like writ large, like how did we get here and what is happening?

Like, how do you answer that question? It's a great question. It's a $64,000 question. The best way to say it is that irrational part of each of us that will end up causing us to function irrationally into our own detriment is growing like topsy. And we cannot stop that unless every single human being, and that can take

a thousand years, unless every single human being feels that somehow they're responsible for the whole, which means in terms of talking about now, it means they're responsible for, I forget how the Bible says, but they're responsible for your brothers and sisters. So that's fairly obvious. The question is how you're gonna get there. And that brings up faith. So faith is something that cannot be proven, impossible.

Faith is something that cannot be proven, impossible. If you want to have faith, you just have to take it for no reason, completely irrationally. And one or two of you was talking about the intuitive experience of connecting to something that you need, but you really don't know anything about. So faith means, I don't know shit about this, and I have to go forward with the faith that somewhere in the future,

something's going to come into my life that will be at least one step towards, I like to say it's one step towards freedom. And freedom to me means, not even go to whatever hotel you want to go to or anything like that, it means freedom from part X. So there's still a question is how can everybody have this? And the reason is the world now is falling apart

and it's not necessarily a bad thing. There'll be a lot of people that'll be terribly hurt by it. But the only thing that can effectively deal with the situation is the willingness to move forward into complete surrender that even though it's surrender, you're not finished with it until you can take action. So it's the ability to take action in the face of complete uncertainty.

And the faith has to become a choice that you have to make for no reason. Now the way our culture is set up is the opposite of that, in other words. And the bottom line instead of faith for most of us is doubt. And doubt means, I doubt everything and everyone,

and I demand proof. And if I don't get the proof, I'm gonna remain in doubt. The problem with that is if you remain in doubt, eventually you get paralyzed because you can't get enough proof to allow you the rational part of the mind to move forward. Yeah, and that's the frame, right? So if your frame is you need proof in order to act,

that will short circuit your ability to have any faith whatsoever. And if you don't have any faith whatsoever, you are basically stuck in this part X paradigm or you have this universe one and universe two. And when we look at, whether it's America or modernity at large and try to canvas or make sense of what's happening right now,

it's sort of like part X, kind of like writ across the world by a collective that's lost their connection with the importance of tending to the collective. Like I know, like so much of your work roots back to Rudolph Steiner and he talks about the beehive and like, you know, we're so obsessed with our individual liberties and we're caught

in this universe one paradigm where it's about money and power and success and status that it blinds us. And please correct me if I'm getting this wrong. It's like blinding us to reality. Like it's an illusion in which we're living out our lives that is preventing us from not just, you know, maintaining a cohesive society,

but from accessing our true potential, which is to kind of co-create with higher forces and be fully expressed. Yeah. Now here's the trick of that. For something to be real, if you want to create it and you want to create something that's worthwhile, you can't do it by yourself.

You need a partner. And the nature of the human psyche and human identity is you can't do anything yourself at all. So everything you can't do anything yourself at all. So everything you're gonna do has to include a partner. Now the ultimate partner is God, obviously. And people get really upset when I talk about God. I love it when you talk about God. Oh, so maybe we can skip this part of our program.

I mean, this new book is all about God. Like you're just in the deep end, you know, this is profoundly spiritual work. Like it takes these ideas from the tools and you're just extending them and really, you know, kind of embracing this ineffable spirituality that's required in order to kind of like overcome like our own shortcomings and disabuse us of this waking dream

that we live our lives in. Correct. Yeah. But I'm all up in my head still. It's interesting as we were going through this book, there were more, we took out some of the references to sort of impart because we didn't wanna talk about in the context or the metaphor of war,

but how the need to your earlier point about what talk about in the context or the metaphor of war, but how the need, to your earlier point about what's happening in the collective for people to find their own faith, both singularly and collectively. And we took some of it out because it felt ironically quite dramatic. And then, and now I wish we'd left more of it in because it feels like that's the moment that we're at.

And you talk about it as sort of this non-duality of working on yourself, which in itself is in service to the collective, and that both things need to happen simultaneously, alone and together. Yeah, here's the thing that's very hard for people to accept, which is we were designed to do the impossible, which is to be in two places at

the same time. So it's actually more possible than you might think to do that. It's the significance of this. It's indispensable that you have immune information, that you can feel the state that you're meant to be in, but the human race is meant to be in forever. Okay. There are three, we call them domains. And every person has to face God. God can only speak to you.

And if you don't like the word God, it doesn't matter. But it's a force that's so much bigger than you, so much wiser than you, that the only way it can reach you at first, it feels like you just got punched in the face by somebody who has a fist that's six blocks long. And I call that death. You have to be killed to go back to the frame because it's very important.

The frame is the set of assumptions that someone has. And everybody has some set of assumptions about the character and the shape of the universe. That sounds to most people like, hey man, paying your fortune and giving your shit. But it's actually true. The space that you inhabit, the boundaries of your world limit you. Even the idea we're in Calabasas or wherever we are, or we're in California, anything like this, we think we're building some kind of spiritual structure. It doesn't matter what we feel we have to do. Part X will tell us you can't do it. Human beings are probably, you could say, they're born with limitations.

It's like somebody being afraid of something that doesn't even exist. It's probably the best way to say it. Now here's the trick of it. So that I think is understandable. It's this little square that you have to live inside of. It's how I feel a lot of times when I'm working. I'm stuck and I have to see three more patients. At that point, that's my little box.

You can only change that or escape from that limitation by changing the frame. But the only way to do that is death. And I mean, death in the- Ego death, basically. Yeah, yes. So my sense of what you just said, if I can like try to share it back to you

is that our brains are wired in such a way in order to survive as like these pattern-making machines to make sense of all this stimuli coming into us to create a map of the world. And with that, we create a frame. This is the way it is, this is the way it isn't, this is who I am, here's what I do. When I do this, this happens, et cetera.

And as much as that is beneficial in order to like, get up in the morning every day and like, not crash our cars or whatever, it's inherently incredibly limiting because it prevents us from experiencing reality as it actually is. And it prevents us from tapping into these unseen forces that defy our brain's desire to prove with evidence.

And as a result, we live our lives like reduced from what we could be. And the only way to shake us out of this illusion is some intervening event, a comet, you know, hits our life and explodes everything that forces us to question the very nature of like these rules that we've established for ourselves. So whether it's like a bottom with addiction or, you know,

a divorce or, you know, some kind of crisis to like shake us up and create the willingness to, you know, kind of look at things a little bit differently. Is that- A plus. Yeah. You could have written this book. No, I don't, definitely not. This book is beautifully written.

And I'm curious also, Elise, about how you came into it. But like, anyway. No, that's, I think, accurate. You, in the book, we write about it as, we're all stuck in our own dioramas in the Natural History Museum. And the things that don't fit into our worldview or out of sight, but they're still present

until life comes collapsing in on you, right? Death explodes. Yeah, and so pain is a necessity, like some kind of crisis. Is it possible to shift this frame and open yourself up to these ideas short of experiencing a crisis that allows you to expand your perspective. No, I would say it's possible to prepare yourself

to something even though you don't know what it is and when it's gonna happen. But you can orient yourself. As long as you can say to God. I don't propose to have any knowledge of what's going to happen. But if there's anything you can do to help me, please help me. I mean, you talk a lot about this book as a training process or a protocol that, regardless of what might be present, is getting you oriented and organized to understand that there's no exoneration

from pain, the need for constant work, and confronting, yeah, dealing with uncertainty in an ongoing regular way. Yeah, now, if you come across any of those three, most people confront with all three of them, that's the presence of God in other words It's like getting punched by four or five people. No, no by three people

God announces his presence with the number three and You know, it's been a sacred number for thousands of years but in this case, you actually need the confrontation with each of these domains. And the hardest one for people to tolerate is the uncertainty. Because our whole society is premised on the idea that there's some built-in protective mechanism that will help you to deal with uncertainty. That will make you feel secure. That will make you feel safe. Yeah, we're so deeply uncomfortable with uncertainty,

but uncertainty is reality. And we believe that, you know, we can do certain things and avoid that uncertainty. And when these three unavoidable truths come knocking, pain, uncertainty, and the need for constant work, what you're saying basically is this is God knocking, saying, I'm giving you an opportunity to confront yourself, to grow, to evolve, and, you know, I'm beckoning opportunity to confront yourself, to grow, to evolve, and I'm beckoning you

to collaborate with me. And this is my way of like making myself known to you. Yeah, that's well said. There's another side to this, which is if you're prepared to accept these three domains, you don't have to evoke them, you don't have to do that. But when they come, and they come very fast usually, you have to accept them. If you can do that, or you condition yourself so at least it's part of your life, at that

point the frame is weakened. At that point you become more is weakened. At that point, you become more sensitive through a different organ. In other words, this organ here, for the rest of your life, it's not gonna help you. And particularly because you're so fast, you know, in all these talents, you know, whatever. But if you are committed to breaking the frame, what actually

happens is, because the frame holds things out, because it's a small little world, it wants to keep you in. But once you can see that, then something else happens, which is the entire universe floods you. Mm-hmm. If you're not prepared for it, that's why there's so many suicides, there's so many people with sin strings, etc., because they're inundated with a force. Not only don't they understand it, they don't even know that it's there. And what society does is it offers you this fake solution.

You can't have it in one incarnation, but what you wanna have is you have to allow in the whole universe. You have to allow in the whole universe. Like that's a mouthful. Like how does one do that? Because what's out there is chaos. As far as we think, because we don't know what it is.

And all the societal defenses against chaos tends to break up. Look, it's breaking up right now. How do you know when the universe, that's the real universe, you can say. What is the stamp of approval of reality? And the answer is, I don't know. One thing that on the frame that I think is important that I didn't understand at first

too is that I assumed when the frame explodes, and you've had some exploding frames in your life that you enter a larger frame. But that's not right, right? It just, it's essentially what's driving you is this nonlinear growth where you're moving forward and you're still in a frame that continues to explode. But it's not like you ever get out of the frame. That's correct. Yeah. That's correct. But they're frames that are almost inborn and people are somewhat aware of them. And by the way, they're aware of them based on what they see as possible. Part X tells you you have a problem that you don't really have, but you believe him and then after he's giving you this specious problem, he gives

you a solution to it that makes the problem worse. That's how Pardax functions and all of this stuff is centered around uncertainty and the other aspect of Part X, which is false magic. And false magic means it's like the devil coming up and saying to you, hey, just do what I tell you, which means believe in these constricted senses of what's possible. And you won't have to meet the three domains. You don't have to do that. All you got to do is follow me. Now that doesn't work too well, obviously.

And it's a death because he's promising you something that actually is impossible so you're gonna fail at it. However, being the devil, it's okay with him because he's just going to hit you again with it, and again and again and again. And that is a war, a war footing. You can't deal with that by yourself. It's impossible. So it was building a whole other dimension to this, which is what role does other human

beings play in this? Because you can't attack this just by yourself, it's impossible. But don't you think it's also part X that would say, oh, you just need to, you know, you need to blow up your life once rich and then you're done, you're exonerated. That's it. But in reality, you're gonna get punched in the face. There's no avoidance. Yeah, even if I'm an addict.

And I go to a program and have it. I still don't have the absolute certainty that I want. I never have it. It's tough medicine. So on the subject of threes, there is part X, which is basically like your shadow self. Maybe you have a different kind of ripple on that. And then we have life force and then we have higher forces.

There's this triangle, right? I love you so much. So I'm trying to make sense of like, go ahead. Which are the life force? Life force, higher forces and part X. I don't love you anymore. Why? Okay, the higher forces are the most accessible and understandable because they're very behaviorally

oriented. Anybody can tell themselves or can make themselves believe that they're going in a way that ultimately is going to give them a respite from the uncertainty. Okay. The next deepest thing is invisible explosion. And I never presented this to anybody before. So do your best. Rudolf Steyer says, and Jeff, you don't go anywhere.

You're still right here. Only you turn still right here. Probably you're turned inside out, or by some sort of shirt off and turned inside out. Now once you've turned yourself inside out, then what you think is coming from the outside is coming from the inside. So it's almost like you've reached the point where you're in the... The whole universe is inside you you is probably the best place. And that's it. That's not the solution.

But that's the mindset that you have to get and there are other religions. I've actually talked about it, but this is this is deeper deeper than karma. It's the ability to create something out of nothing, which is really – I'll probably spend the rest of my life trying to figure that out, but think about it. If you go backwards and you say, how is the universe created, right? Whatever it is, it's a big question mark because you're creating something out of nothing. Now, the end of creating something out of nothing

is a complete violation of our frame, complete. And the way you sell that to somebody is you tell them, or you tell them this force that created the universe is a total mystery, and we have no idea really how the fuck they would do that? We suggest, at least to the patient, whatever you want to call it, that that force, that mystery, cosmic mystery that created something out of nothing, is the force human beings need to really feel themselves. So think of it as like a, so do you ever get to the small candy bars?

Like those two cent ones? So you're giving each human being, if they want to take it, and if they want to do the work for it, you're giving each of them a little piece of that force that created something out of nothing. Even though you don't know what the force is, they don't know what the force is.

And you can't know what the force is because it imputes something that was there before the universe. So fundamental to reality is the idea that you can create something out of nothing because otherwise the universe wouldn't exist. And what plays out in that, in the most macro sense is available to us in our individual lives

on a micro level, right? Like just accepting that that's real. Like you can create something out of nothing if you can cultivate your life force and like dance with the higher forces. Did I get that idea right? How do you think about this, Elise? Yeah, I mean, I think that's sort of the whole nut

of this, of every bit of your work, right? Is how do you create a really potent, how do you turn yourself into a potent creator in your own life? I will change this slide a little bit. How do you elicit the ability to, because you can think of it as a very specific skill. People don't like it because part and parcel with developing that skill is the idea that you've given up any kind of certainty about anything.

Now, look, I'm making it over simplistic. It's that everything's always a little bit of this and a little bit of that, of course. is that everything's always a little bit of this and a little bit of that, of course. But that force, have we talked before about a human being having two different poles doing that? You might've touched on it briefly, but not today. Human beings are dual beings.

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But you define it as like this essence within us that is fundamental to, you know, pursuing a life of meaning and purpose. And it's part X that gets in the way and quashes that, but, you know, creativity comes alive when we, you know, kind of indulge our life force and play with these higher forces. And it is creativity, you know,

not in that like restricted definition, but in this broad definition that is what, kind of what being alive is all about. Yes. It's almost a definition of it. Well, and you have a line where essentially you're like, God doesn't care what you create. It is ultimately, God's not interested

in whether or not you write a bestseller. God is interested in you engaging in life. Every minute. Yeah, tell them the biphasic fantasy, Phil. Oh yeah. People love terms like that too. I love it. This doesn't sound like a term you would do.

Is that your idea at least? No. Biphasic. Biphasic fantasy. All right, since you're breaking my balls, It doesn't sound like a term you would do. Is that your idea? No. No? Bi-phasic? Bi-phasic fantasy. All right, since you're breaking my balls, I will tell you what that means. The ego wants to become God, right?

Control everything. But the only way he can do that is by lining up the bad guys on the other side of the field and defeat them. So, but if there's no bad guys, there's nobody for you to defeat and you start to get the sinking feeling, oh I didn't do it myself, I did it with help and I'm starting to sink back in to that cosmic like glue or something. But it's a fraud. So the reason it's a biphasic fantasy is

you can see it in people who seem to have the need to get thrust down into almost death. And some people it is death. And the only way to get out of it is to go back to the first state. But if you do that, you may feel better, but simultaneously you need an adversary to prove that you are God.

And unfortunately for you, that never, it can't last. And within the biphasic fantasy, there's a need, right, to keep that fantasy going, to continue to create adversaries that you are going to vanquish and beat. Right, because you need them. If you slay them all, then your whole frame is like, you know, thrown out the window, right?

That would create its own existential crisis. Like you can no longer be the victim. You need those adversaries. So once you've slain them all, then you have to create new ones for yourself in this quest to become God. Yeah, and that's where you see public self-destructive, unexplainable activities

of whatever net. You just see in the path you can see it most clearly. So that's called a biphasic fantasy. And it's the secret of the ebbs and flows of the up and down of human events. Would you say too that in the corporate world or in a relationship, it's that need to self-sabotage, blow things up, create chaos

so that you can then solve the problem? Yes. Oh, that's interesting. That keeps you in the universe one. Why does the successful person implode their life? Yeah. I bet you don't see any people like that, Phil. Here in Hollywood.

Well, I think you say like all these successful people, there's like a 50, 50% chance, 50, 50 chance that they're gonna kind of sabotage their life. Blow up their whole group. That's been fine, but okay. Yeah, so what is it 70, like in most cases, like they're sort of purposely stepping on landmines even when life looks good. Yeah, but they don'tmines even when life looks good.

Yeah, but they don't think of it as life looks good. They think of it as I want more and more and more and I wanna go to the next battleground, fight the next army and then suppose that I can get more and stuff, which will start to erode the moment that the last cycle is finished. Sure, but where does the self-sabotage part come in to that?

Oh, there's two phases. One is the alienation phase, which that's when you need something fucked up always to be affecting you. And then there's the conquest phase, which is you can't have a conquest phase unless you have an alienation phase first. And why does that even matter?

The reason it matters is it aides all those bats of human beings functioning as a group. And that would include functioning as a group in a marriage like like a small friend, or somebody totally unqualified becomes the president of some country. I just picked that up. See, and Schmink's not understanding this. There's always two things going on at once.

One level of this is called contextual level. It means like if I have somebody in a marriage and the guy, they're so angry at each other that they're not even talking to each other very much. Let's say you're the person. I say your job is to create a context, even if you don't believe what you're saying, even that doesn't matter. And the concourses, I'm always aware of the other person, and I'm always trying to support their view of the world,

even though in a specific sense, you may want to smack them in the head, and it's unbearable. So you have to do both. You have to say, hey, you're not available to me, you're not present to me, you're not helping me. You can say this of your partner, but at the same time, at the same time, you have to take action steps to give the person what they want. People don't believe they can do things they want. And they can, but part of the question is to know that.

So there's alienation and conquest. You need both of these things. You share an example in like a marriage dynamic, but I'm imagining, you know, the powerful successful person is the alienation piece, like the motivation of feeling like you're not part of, or you're like, I'm not being accepted by this group, I feel alienated.

And so I'm motivated to like, for conquest so that I can be part of the in-group. And then when you succeed, you then have to still feel like you're alienated from like, I guess the next level of that, right? And it creates this cycle. So those two things have to go together. Yes, that's correct.

And it might sound extreme, but that's behind most of human psychology is that because people need the context. I mean, the way you explained it, it doesn't matter whether it's the chicken or the egg, neither person will allow the thing. Yes, absolutely. Oh, I was hoping you were gonna do this.

He's gonna draw. Oh, sorry. Well, maybe while he's drawing, you can share at least how you got involved with this project and like what your history and relationship is with Phil. Yeah, so Phil won't remember this, but I met Phil probably 10 years ago.

Maybe it was even longer. He did an onstage session at an Ingoop Health. I think it was the very first Ingoop Health that we ever did. And it was stunning, I have to say. And I knew of the tools. I knew of the work. You worked with someone live. And I don't even remember the specifics, but I'll never forget watching. I mean, there's something so compelling about watching live therapy when it's done masterfully. And then I interviewed Phil for, similar to you, Lessons for Living, and he was drawing tools for me and sharing concepts that I had never heard of that weren't in the tools. I mean, more practically, we share an agent, but I was like, I'd love to work

with Phil on something. And we were hired to write a workbook. But it's very of a piece with your other writing in the sense that what Phil is presenting is a feminine frame on like how to think about like, emotions and what's important and meaningful. Well, now you cut right to it. I think what's so compelling to me personally, I love a framework.

I want to understand how all of these things fit, how you create a wide enough context to understand human behavior and culture and sociology. And Phil does that, I think, in a very masculine way and in a way that appeals to men, that is somewhat of a counter to the way that I see in a very masculine way and in a way that appeals to men that is somewhat of a counter to the way that I see the world, which is more feminine and more intuitive. And so working with him, I don't know, it felt, well, you would say you can't create anything alone and you don't really, as much as everything comes out of your mind, you

collaborate on everything. You're forced to collaborate on everything. You're forced to collaborate on everything. And so, I don't know, it felt like an interesting pairing. And I love Carl Jung and he says Carl Jung is too too tonic and he doesn't like... No, I don't say too tonic. I say he's lazy. Oh, he's lazy. Sorry. Apologies. You heard it here. One of the most prolific, but he's a lazy sack of shit guys.

But you love obviously Rudolf Steiner, as you mentioned. But for me, it's just added, I feel like I'm good at the subtleties and the shadow, and you are so clear actually, in the way that you perceive the world, that it's like catnip to me personally. Well, I think where Phil really excels is, taking all these very ephemeral concepts

and like drilling them down into not just practical tools but like languaging that allows you to kind of like in our limited minds, kind know, kind of conceptualize what is fundamentally, you know, so difficult to understand. And I think maybe that's the masculine piece because on the surface, it's like, okay, you know, men are in their heads and women are in their hearts. And like, we've all heard that a million times before, right?

I think there's a frustration with therapy. Like Jonas says it beautifully in the documentary. He's like, he's like, you know, look, you pay this therapist to give you advice and all they do is listen. And then you go to your idiot friends and want them to listen and they give you unsolicited advice.

Like the whole fucking thing is upside down, right? And you've created a situation in which you are providing like actionable takeaways, which I think appeals to the masculine kind of sensibility. Like, just tell me what to do. Like, I wanna fix this. I don't wanna spend 10 years talking about my bullshit and be in the same place.

And how do you do that while also embracing that this requires kind of like a feminine heart opening approach that the masculine resists. Yeah, no, and it's true. That's so incredibly well put. And it's so compelling to me how I understand it. But for example, my husband loves Phil and I can't get my husband to go to therapy period,

but he, for whatever reason, you are a bridge for a lot of people into a world that's more familiar to me and probably more familiar to Julie. Yeah, what's interesting about Julie is that she's pretty therapy resistant. She's this, you know, she's very devoted to her spiritual practices, but kind of resistant to traditional modalities of therapy. And like, Phil is like the only guy, she like loves Phil to her spiritual practices, but kind of resistant to traditional modalities of therapy.

And like, Phil is like the only guy, she like loves Phil. And she has a masculine kind of edge to her as well. But, you know, she couldn't, you know, she couldn't have been more enthusiastic to go see Phil. So Phil's playing both sides of the coin. Yeah, look at you. I'll take it as a tremendous compliment. Yeah, you should. You should.

Well, I think the people who, and there are many who love you are often quite admirable people too. Not all of them. Not all. Sorry. Name names. Yeah, I was just about to say that. Yeah, what did you draw?

What did you draw there? I don't know what this is. What do you got? This is a dissection of the life force. I'll just put LF, I'm getting lazy. So lazy, Phil. So this is what it looks like, those curlicue thing. So what do you got here?

You got a little curlicue line on the far right. It says LF. This reminds you, it's the life force. The life force presents itself to you as if it just died. Now you might say, well, are you crazy? But no, because you just died. But we should be the down part of the circle. If I got this right,

basically something happens in your life that shakes you up and you feel like you're dying and you think that's your life force that's dying, but actually this is the moment where your life force might be awakened. Yeah, that's correct. And it was the life force has two phases to it. So the first phase is death or some kind of extreme failure or whatever.

So that's when the curve goes down and then it goes back up again and that's the rebirth. So you have death and rebirth. But you don't have death without rebirth, not because you have such a strong will or you're so committed to therapy. The reason you can't have one without the other is because the cycling for the death and rebirth is built into the system. So, and that's where faith comes in. Let me give you that thing. It's also, I mean, it keeps, it continues to swirl, right? So you can't have rebirth without death. You can't have death without rebirth,

but it's not a one-time affair. No, not only isn't it a one-time affair, it doesn't even exist without it. Okay, so this, on this one, first of all, it enjoys the downward part of the cycle. So that's over here. And then it's gonna start to come up again, which is the rebirth.

So I'll put rebirth, and I don't wanna hear any shit if this didn't come out today. I'm not gonna give you any shit. I'm gonna make you sign these things. A lot of shit. I want like, Just keep giving me the chocolate.

Pathetic artwork. Okay, so you have rebirth on these little curved parts of this spiral. The downward part is death. The downward part's the death and then it comes around for the rebirth. Yeah. Right.

And that's built in, it never stops. The need for constant work, right? Like the idea like, oh, I had my death, I've been reborn, that's in the past and now happily ever after, right? That's sort of the more kind of like traditional narrative. Yeah, that's what the devil is telling you. You know, he speak with me and I'll teach you a way to avoid this altogether.

And the resistance that like, this is just an ongoing process that's constantly looping is the source of our suffering. Yeah, well, we live in a culture that wants to insist that growth is upwards and to the right. And essentially your model of the life force and nonlinear growth is that you are gonna get cold. We write about it as sort of plant trauma.

The plant persists and keeps growing, but it gets, it's going to suffer these curlicues as its potential is revealed. The death and rebirth is part of the healthy, it's not even part of a healthy cycle. It is built into the cycle. It is a cycle. But we also mis-define growth.

Like we think growth means, you know, the accumulation of material possessions and success and power and money and prestige and all of that, right? Like we're caught on that hedonic treadmill and, you know, then become disappointed when we feel our lives lack meaning and then we end up in Phil's office. Right, in the realm of illusion,

which I think is one of the most compelling concepts, which is this idea that you accrue enough power and money and you're immune from life, right? That you're good. Here's the nature of the realm of illusion. I mean, we can be sitting and talking and we could be either in the realm of illusion or not. That's our choice.

Okay, it's a lucky day. That's our choice. Okay. It's a lucky day. All right. There you go. More drawings. Needs to be a triptych. That's not so crazy. Just for perfect life.

And if that wasn't fair. So it's a sort of a line that denotes the ground, a little stick figure and a dotted line to a square that represents the perfect life. Yes. Like a thought bubble. Yeah, yeah, that's what we put in there. So that's, we don't want that for obvious reasons.

We don't want what? We don't want to believe in Santa Claus. We don't want to believe that that's even possible. A perfect life. Yeah, a perfect life. Usually it's like a perfect spouse or something like that. But it doesn't matter what the detail is. It only matters that whatever projection, whatever image you have is wrong.

In a sense it doesn't even exist. It's a representative of nothing. Whatever projection, whatever image you have is wrong. In a sense, it doesn't even exist. It's a representative of nothing. But you would say it doesn't even matter. All that matters is that you're cultivating your life force and in this process of like constant creation. Yeah, now look at the two together and tell me how would they fit?

They don't really fit at all. Like the curlicue lines of like rebirth and death, this is like saying, you know, it's about the journey, not the destination. It's just, it's a process, right? Whereas this perfect life is about going somewhere with a destination. Yeah, static or snapshot.

Okay, give me that thing back there. Which one? Both of them. Self-help and life. All right. See, one says you can attain a state of perfection, which you can't, But the other one says, yes, you can't reach a state of perfection,

but in a longitudinal way you can. The way Rudolf Sanger says it is, the world is perfect because it's imperfect. So each one of those turns is a effort that's imperfect. So each one of those turds is an effort that's imperfect. As long as you can stay in that line knowing you're just piling up turds, you're safe. And what you say from is from the devil, from part S. So it's paramount part in the expression. To see the events in your life, regardless of what they are,

all of them are failures. All of them are failures or? They have a totally new. Is that a way of saying basically, life unfolds exactly how it's meant to and everything, you know, that you experience is here for your growth and evolution. And it's a perspective frame as much as anything else.

Like it is, the imperfections are its perfection, right? Yeah, yes, 100%. That's why the rules says the world is perfect because it's imperfect. There's more than this, but the point of the whole book, which no offense to you, but random has had a little trouble grasping this. The whole point of this is to give human beings the power to create something out of nothing. And there's a million different ways that Part X will

try to convince you that that's impossible. And the ego says, don't worry about it, because I got a better solution. You don't really have to ride these cycles and accept the inevitable failure or at least imperfection of the deep mess. You don't have to do that, but you got to pay. And in the old days you just just say the devil had you sold. But now it's actually worse. How so? Cause some super rich billionaire and or-

The industrial fill in the blank complex, the industrial defense complex, the industrial pharmaceutical complex, the industrial political complex, banking, right? All of it. These giant institutions. That's right. So institutional certainty, maybe for a while,

more or less from 1920 to maybe 10 years ago, now all the institutions have broken down. So even the specious fake certainty that you can get from it because the corruption is now out in the air. Right. This is our great opportunity, right? Because we're being confronted with uncertainty

on a level that is sort of unprecedented in our lives. And what are we gonna do with that? Are we gonna wring our hands and be upset and pro, there's lots of things that we can do, but can we look at it as an opportunity for our own personal growth and evolution? Excellent. Yeah. I like how you did that. Do that again.

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Here's the thing, Phil. This is like a deeply spiritual, like, you know, like sort of doubt a chain, like manual for life that sort of costumed or, like manual for life that's sort of costumed or kind of presented in this package of like psychological tools for better living. Like it's a Trojan horse on some level. And so I wanna know, like last time you were here,

I was like, how do you have this X-ray vision? Is this a gift you've always had your ability to like see right through people and get right to the heart of the matter? Like you have this uncanny, like preternatural ability to do that. But on some level, like there is a enlightened perspective

on the human condition. And I wanna know if you had like a spiritual epiphany or some kind of occurrence, did you come out of the womb just wired with that level of sensitivity? How did you develop this expansive view? I developed them, probably not for the best reasons. I was always afraid of not having enough money.

So therefore I would both work really hard on each patient to help them because then they keep coming back. And also I knew that I could feel myself developing these skills, you know, for better or worse. So and because I needed the money, I kept working harder and harder. Finally, I reached the point where I think I would seem like 70 people a week. Now, now I wouldn't even try to do seven a week,

but I needed it, I thought I'd die. That's the real answer. And so that was a death moment for you. Yes. So what was the epiphany that grew out of that? Like the rebirthing process from that. Well, when my brother died, the family fell apart. And this was not stated,

but the responsibilities for holding the things together with me and my father wanted me to go to medical school. This is what this fuck said. I loved him. He's a nice guy. He used to say, my friend fell down in an elevated shaft in Metropolitan Hospital. And he lived.

So we go there the next night. He's in the ICU. And whatever. He was conscious. So they were walking out of this hospital. And whatever, he was conscious. So they were walking out of this hospital. And we're about 50 feet past the door of the hospital. And he says, he turns me around, he says,

look in there, what you see is all fucking, it's a city hospital. And he says to me, that's the only profession. And it was the most fucked up thing anyway, because it said, it doesn't really matter what else you do in life. I'm telling you, that's the only profession. Which you could just say, add as an addendum. So don't even consider taking one of these inferior professions.

So that held me back. But it wasn't, again, all these things are two-headed monsters. So it got me into this. So it wasn't that bad. And then the same thing happened with medical school. You know, at that time, like 1971, psychiatry was considered a losers. It was like a bucket of shit for losers. It was no, yeah. So I said, I don't want to do this. I was very good with my hands.

Because I have small hands, I was very dexterous. And for a minute I thought, okay, maybe I should do this, my father be thrilled. Plus he had a, he had just had a child die and my father and mother were without any kind of spiritual feeling, period. So for a minute I said, maybe I should do this. I know he would love surgery.

Surgery. Yeah. Because of your fingers. And yeah, I know he would love it. Surgery? Surgery. Yeah. Because of your fingers. And yeah, I got it. But luckily this voice sat on my shoulder and said, you'll have to do what you enjoy. And I remember the exact moment I had this. So I guess I have had it in person.

And I did it, even though I was afraid of what everybody would think. The fucking Dean of Medicine there, he couldn't believe that I wasn't gonna become, you know, some kind of big shot in the hierarchy. It's interesting, you don't have that at all, really. What do you mean? You're very competitive, but you don't,

you're not that identified with it. Yeah, I don't know. I don't know if that's true. Have you had a spiritual awakening? I've had a couple. Yeah, sure. I had to have my life shaken up a few times, for sure. And I guess I find myself wanting to like lay on top of, you know, the life of Phil Stutz, like this sort of Joseph Campbell hero's journey.

Like here's where he, you know, had his awakening and here's what happened as a result of it. Here's how, you know what I mean? I want a very clean, you know, kind of narrative to the whole thing. And like, you keep coming back at me with this, like, you know, hot mess, you know? And it's like, oh, but that's actually the profound answer because that's what life is.

Our brains, my brain wants to be reductive, you know, and point to one thing as being the reason. And you're right in the razor's edge, by the way. You could fall off on either side. Yeah, I do that every day. So is it? It depends on how well I slept. And by that you mean of falling into the sort of

reductive, rational. Like the universe one versus the universe two. Yeah, like I asked you earlier, but maybe like define that difference because we didn't actually get an answer to that. Define one and two? Yeah, yeah. Yeah, universe one defines value mathematically.

Nothing, and I think that's the strength, nothing that you can't understand mathematically really is irrelevant. So or if you want to say more simply, universe one can only speak through mathematics. When you think about it, it's like dried up. The material world. Yeah. And the rules that we've created about how it works. Money, success. So that's Universe One.

And what it creates is, not even purposely, it creates a tremendous amount of conflict. Because once you can measure something and define it clearly as far as who's the winner or whatever, once you have that, you have a war. Universe 2 is different. Universe 2 does not value anything with numbers. Numbers means nothing, which means what's in your bank account means nothing.

It's like it's a belief system that doesn't include anything. See, we all wanna think about that as if we could only solve these equations or algorithms, what the fuck. If we could only do that, we feel secure. Yeah, that's the antidote for our deep seated discomfort with uncertainty.

Correct. But you have this great line in the book about universe two that I think kind of distills it down into what you're trying to say, which is if you wanna know who you really are, ask yourself what you would spend your time on even if you knew it would never make you money. Yeah, that's true.

And then subsequent to that, God only cares that you don't quit. So maybe elaborate on that, or maybe Elise can share her perspective on that. Well, and I'm sure you can relate to this, Rich. I mean, I feel this way about so much of my work where, well, it's a balance, right? Like I wanna believe that everything I do, I do for free.

And this is probably true of every creative that you treat, right? And there's a monetary value to the work that we do as well. And it's hard to not, I call it my more masculine mind. And I find myself getting sort of sucked into the vortex of numbers and rankings and financial stability. But universe two, when I'm most alive, is when I'm co-creating or creating on my own. And yes, I would do it all day. I mean, it's flow in some ways, right? Now, there's one state or one emotion that will protect you from getting drawn back into the mathematical world.

Do you know what that is? No. It's rage, hatred. Say more. Because all these battles are fought right here. This is where I find my capacity to sense reality is here, which means most of it isn't in words. There's no answer to your question, but what you can, as you develop this,

you become more sensitive, and you trust your instincts more. Nothing's close to 100%. If you think you need 100%, then you're just wasting time. And the funny thing is, I mean, you've probably studied this. If you study theoretical physics and subatomic physics and all that shit,

think about it, it's pure movement. Even if I said, I know what that, whatever these particles are, even if I know what it is and I can identify it, it's gonna move. Yeah, when you drill down to the very essence of it, at the subatomic level, like, you know, you can't really definitively like say,

what's like matter or energy or the position of a subatomic particle is dependent upon the observer or not. Like all these sort of weird, like quantum physics things that come into play that are kind of offensive to our desire for certainty that math is supposed to give us. So, and the problem with that is

you can't possibly feel God with that set of variables. Sure, but isn't that, that's where God dwells. Yes, exactly right. You said to stay in universe two, I need rage and hatred. Yeah. But wait, can you- Yeah, I don't know.

I didn't expect you to say that. Oh yeah, we got two, two fists on the table. Is this when you tell me I need to be more of an asshole? Right, you couldn't be more of an asshole. But yeah, no seriously, yeah. Because what you want to do is you want to overcome this, which thinks it knows what it's receiving, but does, and you want to use this,

and this is the instinct system, so to speak. And is the way to get your instinct system online to tap into sort of like a holy fire anger? All right. Yes. All right, another drawing. Yeah, this is sort of contradicting everything I thought you would say,

because I thought you would say to stay in universe too, you have to be creating from a place of like joy and abundance. And love. And love, yeah, yeah, yeah. Anger and rage. Yeah, I'll show you what. This is called cosmic rage. I don't know if you've seen it.

Now, there's certain kinds of rages that aren't good. They're not good. They don't do anything for you, but this one does a lot for you. And the reason is, this is called the I Am Space. Yes, it's not nice screaming, you know, and a lot of times it won't work. But it's the life force But it's the life force commanding its own existence. See, out here... Is this like you're screaming at Part X?

Yes. So you're creating space for yourself. And Part X is going to fight you on this to the death. However, now that you know that, if it drives you to the death, all that's going to do is reactivate the rebirth. So it actually can't win. So we have a circle here in the middle.

And inside of it, you have written the IM space. Is that correct? And then you have arrows pointing out of it. And then outside of it, this is the cosmic rage. The cosmic rage. And then surrounding that, I guess these are like incursion forces that are trying to come into you. And so while they're trying to attack you,

you need to resist and push back against it, right? And that's the cosmic rage that you're talking about. So I interpret this as like just to, you know, create an example from my own life. Like, for example, this podcast, like this is something that I would do for free and did do for free for a long time out of like joy and creativity

and just like the incredible experience of getting to meet people like yourself. Like, it's just like the incredible experience of getting to meet people like yourself, like it's just like the coolest thing, right? And then at some point it grows into a commercial, you know, enterprise and that's wonderful. And I get to not only support my family, but provide livelihoods for other people. But that comes with these pressures.

And then, you know, when it becomes this, you know, kind this material thing, then you're just, it immediately goes from universe two back to universe one. So the cosmic rage is to like push against that and protect like that spirit that birthed it in the first place. Cause I'm sure with all these amazing kind of patients

that you've had over the years in Hollywood, you have these amazingly creative people who just from a place of childlike wonder, you know, like just imagine fantastic things. And suddenly, you know, a waterfall of cash falls on top of them, right? And, you know, with that, the blossoming of the ego and suddenly they're a big deal in Hollywood.

And then what was beautiful about that gets eroded and supplanted by this material pursuit for like, how do I stay at the top? How come that guy's getting the next studio gig when I should get it? This is what you're talking about, right? That's what I'm talking about. And it's not limited to show business.

It's now occurring worldwide. So the best of what makes us human gets co-opted and then kind of like corrupted. Correct. One of the most, I think, powerful ways that you described part X too, is that part X doesn't want to kill you, part X wants to conscript you, enslave you.

Tell me more about that. Just this idea that I think we perceive it as outside of us and we perceive it as something to be vanquished or it wants to vanquish us. And your point is no, Pardax ultimately wants to sort of dole you and conscript you into servicing its agenda in the world. Yeah.

You think of it like it it doesn't, it's okay with part of it to give you all these bribes and suggestions, as long as you know that ultimately you get nothing. And nothing goes back to the creation of the universe. It seems to me that the part X, And nothing goes back to the creation of the universe. It seems to me that the part X, this darker side of ourselves is one in which we either deny or pretend doesn't exist or compartmentalize to Elise's point, right?

Like we just, we shove it aside because we don't really wanna face the fact that we have dark thoughts and like, you know, we're not good people and all that kind of stuff, right? Or we so self-identify with it that we can't tell the difference between like our life force or our higher self and that part X. And they become like the same thing

and override our operating system and like drive all of our decisions. Yeah, and there's something about the life force that I forgot to tell you. Do you wanna hear it? Am I in? Of course. That's why you're here, buddy. Okay.

I accept that responsibility. I was trying to get another fist on the table with that, but I didn't succeed. Go ahead. There you go. I feel better. Okay. Go ahead. There you go. I feel better. Okay. The key of the life force is relationships,

relating, connection, whatever you wanna call it. That's very offensive to the self-made man idea upon which America was founded. Fuck you. Okay. You label it. This is the model for remaining connected. It doesn't depend on how well your life is doing. The classic thing is that it comes into my office and he'll say, I don't know why I keep getting fired from these jobs. My friend makes much more money than I do.

Whatever the universe wants, stuff is. And he says, if I only knew where I belonged in the universe, if I knew that, I could act on it. And if I could act on it, I wouldn't conduct my life like a piece of shit. But I'm not going to just arbitrarily do that. I have to be sure I'm doing the right thing. Only then will I become disciplined. And what I always tell these guys, and a lot of them, first thing I say is fuck you, you're ungrateful. That's number one.

Number two, we're talking about something that has general meaning, independent of anything except the fact that you're human. And there's three levels of assuring your humanity. You were telling the story about a typical patient three levels of asserting your humanity. You were telling the story about a typical patient who comes in and essentially wants you to tell them what their purpose in life is so that they can become more disciplined.

Correct. So that they can get the stuff they want that other people are getting that's making them so mad. Yeah. Yeah, and I think they have to pick the right job, high school, wherever it is. If they get it right, then all of this will flow to them. If they don't get it right, they get nothing.

That's complete bullshit. Right, it's transactional. Like, yeah, I got you, Phil. I'll do all this shit as long as I get all these things that I want, that I'm still convinced are the things that my life is missing and will make me happy. Correct. So you've got this triangle here, this pyramid,

and it's divided into three layers, sort of like a Maslow's hierarchy of needs. At the bottom, it's relationship to the body. The middle is relationship to others, and then the top is relationship to self. Right. And it's more complicated than you think, but the point of it is not reaching it,

but even the act of trying to form a relationship with yourself on each one of these layers starts. This is the blueprint for the universal connection, because this whole thing is about connection. In order to take advantage of the situation, so to speak, you have to reduce everything down to the lowest possible level, which is broken up by these three things. And then every time you're not sure what to do, you feel lost, you're unable to gain the confidence that you're in the right direction. Don't do that.

Stop. Just to work on this much smaller, much more accurate I would say. But the point is this is universal. That's the key thing. It doesn't matter who you are, what you are, what you do. It's not a guessing game. We used to say this or that. We could try it once in a zillion years it works. But this is a pure study you're making, especially the top one, your relationships with yourself. Now would anybody like to hazard any idea about how do you, what would that entail? The relationship to yourself? Yeah.

Well, this triangle, right, is this is your way of activating your life force. Yes. And when people come in to you, sometimes titans of industry and everything has collapsed around them. They want to sort of start even above the triangle, right? And understanding like, what's my God given purpose and I don't want to deal with any of this other pedantic bullshit. Yeah, because pedantic bullshit. That's excellent.

Yeah, cause I said bullshit. And so your instruction to all of us, regardless, is you have to reactivate your life force by invoking your relationship with your body, which is your world, right? Like get up and walk around the block. Yeah, I mean, isn't that the initial source of activation? And I think people are fundamentally disconnected

from themselves in so many ways, but it begins with like, well, what are you putting in it? And if you're just eating garbage and not sleeping and overstimulated, then how are you gonna actually feel yourself? How are you gonna connect with that life force? Because there's so much interference going on. And so you gotta do that before any of these other things

can take place, right? Correct. And you have to keep doing it some months or weeks is gonna help you, others won't. But the whole point is you solidify that relationship through the constancy of your efforts. One of my favorite concepts in the book actually is the plane of will, which is this idea that's similar to relationship with your body or this whole life force, which is that you make

a commitment to yourself and you show up and you practice the piano at 10 a.m. every day. And that there's like a precognitive momentum that you're generating where you're strengthening that relationship, sometimes to your body, sometimes with other people, and sometimes to yourself. And that that action alone is primary momentum in your life. And that you don't, again, there's no exoneration

from pain and the need for constant work and uncertainty. You don't get to the point where you get to abandon your body. Correct. So once you start this, you have to keep it going for the rest of your life. Yeah, that's the good news and the bad news, right?

You know, before we complete this, I'm curious, Elise, like what was your experience working with Phil? And are you like different on the other side of collaborating on this book? Like, what did you take away that has been helpful in your own life? It's been a total honor and- Thank you.

Quite hilarious at times as you can imagine, but in very nonlinear in a way that actually is, I think, quite magic considering the title of the book. And we just talked like this, probably 30 times, 40 times, and I just ask questions again and again. And similar, I think, to probably your experience with Phil or your experience with the content, it wasn't always what I thought it would be.

And so that to me was also really moving in a way to be surprised that like the answer is cosmic rage and not love, for example. But at the end of it, what emerged wasn't, we didn't sit down and write this book from beginning to end at all, but we just sort of built it in layers over time. And I've never had that experience actually of creating something in that way. Usually it's very tactical chapter by chapter,

story by story. And instead it felt like it emerged out of, we created something out of nothing. Well, it had to. Yeah. Otherwise it wouldn't be, you know, in organically, you know, Phil Stutz production, right? It would not be.

Yeah, if you had conjured it in the frame of your brain, like it would have fallen short, right? So that's like its own like, like sort of meta story within the book, which is really cool. It was so, and honestly, the assignment was to create a workbook for the original tools.

And this is nothing, nothing like that. It's not a departure from the tools, but it's sort of an extrapolation. Yeah. And I think, you know, while this conversation may have come across as like difficult to, you know, get your arms around or a little bit too like ephemeral,

I promise you that it's filled with actionable practical things that you can do. Cause that's really what you're all about Phil. Like you're drilling it down and like, here's some things you can do that will actually immediately change your life. And that's part of why you're so revered. But I think fundamentally to kind of, you

know, end this, it's a very, you know, beautiful and expansive book that is really about, you know, our relationship with faith and the extent to which, you know, we as a collective have kind of divorced ourselves from ancient practices that came naturally to us. And so it's sort of a call to action to reclaim this part of what it is to be human. And there's a quote in the book that I want to read that I think really kind of encapsulates the whole thesis of what you're trying to get to, which is, the most important tool for contending with life is freely chosen faith. is the most important tool for contending with life is freely chosen faith. This faith is chosen for no other reason

than your desire to have faith. To deal with reality, you must accept the fact that reality is unpredictable and that you must act anyway, using only the faith that you've chosen to have. Who wrote that? I don't know, maybe Elise wrote it. I don't remember that. Elise wrote it. I don't remember.

That's it, right? That kind of says it, doesn't it? I think that's kind of a nice landing place for this. Is there anything final you want to say before we- Yeah, I want to thank everybody, including the crew. It's like a privilege to do it with people who have goodwill. That's the best I can say.

And there's not that many of them. Thank you. I mean, it's a real gift, honestly, to be with you. And I feel honored to have been able to spend some time with you. And I think you're a magical creature and what you offer everybody is meaningful and real. And I just want you to feel acknowledged for that.

And Elise, for you to collaborate with him and bring the best out of him and bring your sensibility and what you have to offer into this book. I think it's really, it is a gift for everybody. Thank you, Rich. Yeah, so thanks, buddy. Come back.

You can be my cohost. You wanna come in every week? I was helping you. Yeah. All right. He needs his own show. All right, thanks you guys. That's the luck with the book.

You can find the book everywhere. Elise, where do you want to direct people for people who are curious? About my world. Yeah, about your world and your books and your podcast. I have a podcast called Pulling the Thread, and it's similar. We cover some similar ground, although you've been at it for so much longer.

You're a titan. And my book is called On Our Best Behavior, The Price Women Pay to Be Good. If you like Stutt's world, there's probably something in that for you. Amazing. Thank you. Amazing. Thank you. Good luck.

All right, you guys. I love you. Thank you. I love you, Phil. Peace. That's it for today. Thank you for listening. I truly hope you enjoyed the conversation.

To learn more about today's guests, including links and resources, please visit stutzworld.com. And if you're interested in learning more about Stutzworld, please visit stutzworld.com. And if you're interested in learning more about Stutzworld, That's it for today. Thank you for listening. I truly hope you enjoyed the conversation. To learn more about today's guests, including links and resources related to everything discussed today, visit the episode page at richroll.com where you can find the entire podcast archive, my books, Finding Ultra, Boising Change, and the Plant Power Way, as well as the Plant Power Meal Planner

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