The Rich Roll Podcast - Pro Boxer Mike Lee On Why Mindset Is Everything

Episode Date: July 15, 2019

To be totally honest, I don't follow the pugilistic arts all that closely. But professional boxer barely describes this week's guest — a man who has faced stacked odds and overcome career-ending setbacks to meet the biggest moment of his life. Ask him how he did it, and Mike Lee answers with conviction: it's all about mindset. A professional light heavyweight boxer currently 21 – 0 with 11 knockouts, this Saturday, July 20th Mike will be fighting for his first world title against Caleb Plant — the current Undefeated IBF Super Middleweight World Champion. It’s Mike’s first fight in 13 months. On the other hand, Plant (18-0 with 10 knockouts) is fresh off his biggest victory. Suffice it to say, it’s shaping up to be quite the bout. And it's all going down live on Fox PBC, live from the MGM Grand in Las Vegas. Hardly your average fighter, what compels me about Mike is the unique path he's blazed to arrive at this place. This is a guy who studied business at Notre Dame, where he relaxed by reading The Wall Street Journal and watching CNBC. When he graduated in 2009 with a 3.8 GPA in finance, he was welcomed with lucrative opportunities on Wall Street. But then he takes the road less traveled, turning every job offer down to pursue a lifelong dream: winning Chicago’s Golden Gloves. He did just that. The following year, he went pro, winning his first two professional fights. The national spotlight shone bright. Endorsement contracts followed. The boxing world, it appeared, was his oyster. You might say the rest is history. But that belies the severity of his next bout — a fight for his life that blindsided him outside the ring. At the peak of his career, after knocking out Tyler Seever in 2012, Mike fell prey to a mysterious health condition that would bench him for over two years. Experiencing great pain in his joints, severe headaches and debilitating chronic fatigue, doctors struggled to determine the cause. Some believed it was psychological. Others prescribed a multitude of drugs, none of which resolved his underlying predicament. But all of them told him he would never fight again. The hospital bed had become home. His identity challenged, he suddenly felt worthless, succumbing to a deep depression. Nonetheless, Mike never gave up hope. He committed to seeking alternative and non-traditional solutions, which culminated in a diagnosis: an auto-immune disease called Ankylosing Spondylitis. A version of arthritis, AS can be devastating both physically and mentally for anyone, let alone a professional athlete who pushes his body to the limit every day. The path forward hasn't been easy. Mike wakes up in pain every day. But he's gone all in on this comeback. And that's something worth all of us getting behind. Layered with life lessons and formative takeaways, this is a conversation about the value of perseverance. It's about deploying a potent mindset to keep your dream live, no matter the circumstances. It's about visualizing success. And it's about the importance of always giving back. The visually inclined can watch our entire conversation on YouTube here: bit.ly/mikelee454 (please subscribe!) An exemplary ambassador of sport, I really enjoyed Mike. I think you will too. Enjoy! Rich

I had so many people that doubted me, even to this day, dude. Because I didn't have a huge amateur background. I kind of started late. So many people that didn't believe that I would get to 10-0, 20-0, let alone fight for a world title. And that's that chip on my shoulder. I want to prove all those people wrong, and I even want to prove myself wrong on those days

when I doubted myself laying in hospital beds. That's what July 20th is about for me, dude. Like I know I'm going to win this fight, but win or lose, I've accomplished so much because I had those days literally laying in the hospital where I was like, I thought I was never going to do anything with my life, let alone like thought about whether I should continue my life. So it's about like proving those people, but most importantly, like proving myself wrong. That's professional boxer, Mike Lee, this week on the Rich Roll Podcast. The Rich Roll Podcast. Hey everybody, how you guys doing? What's happening? My name is Rich Roll Podcast. Hey, everybody. How you guys doing? What's happening?

My name is Rich Roll. I am your host. This is my podcast. Welcome or welcome back. Quick reminder before we get into it. My first legit live show, live podcast extravaganza will be Friday, September 27th at the historic, gorgeous 1100 seat Wilshire Ebell Theater here in Los Angeles. It is shaping up to be all kinds of amazing. Early indications are that it will sell out. So for more information, click the appearances tab on richroll.com and grab your seats while they're hot and I'll see all you guys there. Today, I'm here with DK. What's happening, David Kahn?

Hello. It's time to check in on DK Goals. It's been a while. It's been a little bit. How's it going? I think we're starting to get a little bit of progress. It's kind of exciting, to be honest. You've dropped some pounds. I have. I think I'm down about, I'm down to 204. So I think I've probably dropped 10, 11, 12 pounds. And it was pretty recent, right? Yeah. I mean, you and I went to Denver and we ate out at a bunch of vegan restaurants. And then I went to Seattle

and I started getting on a scale every day. And I think that type of accountability when you're around people that eat well and you're looking at your weight, I think it impacted almost all of my eating decisions. Yeah. When we talked the other day, we were talking about accountability and momentum, and I feel like you've got a good deal of that at the moment. So I would encourage you to keep doing what's working for you, getting on that scale every day and leaning into the momentum that you've created. Because once it has that inertia, it's so much easier to keep it going than all the fits and starts that I feel like have been sort of your Achilles heel. No, I agree. And I'm definitely like more mindful of the eating and I'm also excited to eat better,

not eat late, exercise more consistently. I feel good right now about it all. Did you pull the trigger on the Vitamix? I didn't get the Vitamix yet, but that's happening this week. All right, you got to take care of that. It's happening this week. I actually needed to go over it with you

because I'm not sure which model to get and everything like that. We'll talk about that. It doesn't matter. Just get one of them. Okay. They're all good. And come back on again soon and we'll hold you collectively accountable.

I like the progress and I like the inertia. No, I appreciate it because honestly, it's good to get like little victories because along the way, you know, like a couple months ago even, I was still kind of despondent about the whole thing. And you have the knee surgery looming. Yeah. So we postponed that, but I'm going to see another doctor. And we did have it scheduled for three weeks ago. And I just decided I got to lose the weight. I got to eat healthier. And we can have the knee surgery later in the year when I'm in better shape and I feel better about myself. All right. Well, your skin is glowing, looking good. And I'm excited to see where this is headed. I appreciate the support. More will be revealed, as they say.

So today, today's conversation, today I sit down with professional light heavyweight boxer, Mike Lee. Mike is currently 21 and 0 with 11 knockouts. Super impressive. And this Saturday, July 20th, Mike is going to be fighting for his first world title against Caleb Plant, who is the current undefeated IBF super middleweight world champion. And what's interesting about this is that it's Mike's first fight in 13 months, whereas Plant, who is 18-0 with 10 knockouts, is coming off a recent very big victory for himself. So it's shaping up to be quite the bout, which will be broadcast on Fox from the MGM Grand in Las Vegas. And here's the thing.

I'm not like a huge boxing fan. I really can't say that I follow the sport all that closely. So when the opportunity arose to host Mike on the show, I initially wasn't sure that it was the right fit for what I do. But I looked into him, and the more that I discovered about this guy's life, the more I realized that Mike is not your average fighter, and the more interested I became. This is a guy who went to Notre Dame. He majored in finance. He graduated with Wall Street opportunities and lucrative job offers. But he turns them all down to pursue this dream

of winning Chicago's Golden Gloves. And beyond that, he lives by a very interesting and strict approach to both sport and life. His strength, what I think is his real secret weapon, his greatest talent is mindset, which is something that he rigorously and regularly deploys in his preparation to quell the many doubters. And I think it's highly instructive for all of us, how we

navigate life and challenges, and it comprises a great portion of what we discussed today. I got a few more thoughts about Mike before we dive in, but first... I got a few more thoughts about Mike before we dive in, but first. We're brought to you today by recovery.com. I've been in recovery for a long time. It's not hyperbolic to say that I owe everything good in my life to sobriety. And it all began with treatment and experience that I had that quite literally saved my life. And in the many years since, I've in turn helped many suffering addicts and their loved ones find treatment. And with that, I know all too well just how confusing and how overwhelming and how

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that quite literally saved my life. And in the many years since, I've in turn helped many suffering addicts and their loved ones find treatment. And with that, I know all too well just how confusing and how overwhelming and how challenging it can be to find the right place and the right level of care, especially because unfortunately, not all treatment resources adhere to ethical practices. It's a real problem, a problem I'm now happy and proud to share has been solved by the people at recovery.com who created an online support portal designed to guide,

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All right, Mike Lee. So this guy's a badass for sure. But what's really interesting about his story is that the obstacles that he's had to face and overcome are not all in the ring. that he's had to face and conquer, chronic fatigue, severe pain in his joints, severe headaches. He wasn't sure what was going on. It took him 18 months out of the ring going to all kinds of specialists all over the country right at the prime of his career to try to figure out what was wrong with him. And then in 2014, he was diagnosed with something called ankylosing spondylitis, which is an autoimmune disease. It's kind of a form of arthritis that causes inflammation, chronic pain, debilitating fatigue. And it kept him out

of the sport for two years, battling with painkillers and depression and anxiety. So today we're going to talk about what that was like and how he came out of it, as well as how he's preparing for this fight and all the mindset tools that he's relied upon to get to this point in his career. And it's a great conversation. Mike is a really intelligent, thoughtful guy. He's a big underdog going into this fight, but the kind of guy that you can't help but root for. So let's talk to them. This is me and Mike Lee. Well, it's super nice to meet you. Great to meet you. I'm excited. Thanks for coming out to do this. Got exciting times ahead for you. This is an incredible year for me. Yeah. A lot of big, big dreams and goals are going to be accomplished this year.

So July 22nd is the big fight. Is that right? Yeah, July 20th. July 20th, okay. We just got confirmation it'll be in New York at the Barclays Center. Oh, wow. Yeah, which is beautiful.

I've actually already fought there before. It's where the Nets play. Just a gorgeous arena, probably about 25,000 screaming fans and a ton of energy. And it's going to be broadcast on Fox. Correct. Yeah, so like a million

people are going to see this fight. Yeah. I mean, based on what the ratings were before, my guess is hopefully four or 5 million people will be tuning in. Wow. The more, the better. So I'm excited. That's pretty cool. So it's the super middleweight IBF world title fight, right? And you're fighting Caleb Plant. Correct. Yeah. Caleb's a kid from Tennessee. He just won the title, so this is his first title defense. Very good boxer,

a champion for a reason, but this is my night. I'm really excited. Yeah, so he is, what is he? He's like 18-0 with 10 KOs? Yeah, 18 or 19-0. I'm currently 21-0. Right.

11 KOs. So someone's O has got to go. You're going to hear that a lot. And how are you feeling about the whole thing? I feel awesome. I mean, I've had a long career. Like I said, 21 and 0 has had a lot of ups and downs. And I'm sure we'll obviously get into that. But this, for me, is the culmination of a dream I've had since i was eight years old fight for a world title it's my super bowl it doesn't get any bigger and better than this so all the you know i've got scars on my hands of when broke my hand in a fight in msg between all the health battles i've gone through broken noses july 20th is the culmination of everything i've worked for and so for me it's the pinnacle, and I'm beyond pumped for it.

Yeah, a lot of pressure too. It honestly is. You know what's a crazy concept to think about? For a fighter, right, and this is my first world title fight on a stage like this, you train your entire life. I started fighting at eight years old. But day in, day out, especially since I've been pro, for 36 minutes.

It's a 12-round fight, three minutes each round. And 36 minutes is going to change my life. And it's crazy to think the years you prepare. Either way. Either way. In the years you prepare for a moment. I might get a knockout. It might only last a round. You never know.

But it's crazy how long you prepare, mostly not in front of cameras and by yourself, for a moment that's so short. Yeah. I mean, it's similar to an athlete who's preparing for the Olympics. I come from a swimming background. I know many, you know, I wasn't at that level, but I have plenty of friends that are, and their entire life boils down to, you know, that moment at Olympic trials to qualify for the Olympic team. And then that moment, you know, climbing the blocks at,

you know, the finals of the, you know, biggest sporting event in the world where millions of people are watching. And the race can be anywhere from like 21 seconds to a couple minutes at most. And then it's done, you know?'s you know do you you know connor uh connor dwyer right so i was just gonna mention that yeah i know connor it's interesting he actually just texted me today because i told him i was you know i'm hopping on the show i hit him up too yesterday because i went on your twitter and it shows like who your mutual friends are oh and our only overlap was connor which is kind of perfect.

So I texted him. I was like, hey, you must know this guy. Yeah, Connor's a great dude. We both were athletes for this company that we were both sponsored by, and I met him through that. Actually, we have a lot of mutual friends in Chicago. Yeah, from Chicago. Yeah, and he has a very similar story.

I was listening to his interview, obviously, and how he started really late. And even though I started boxing at eight, I really didn't get into it hardcore until I was, man, almost like 18. So that kind of resonated with me when he mentioned he started getting into it and getting his growth spurt late in life. Yeah, he really did. I mean, he bloomed much later in life for, in the sort of world of swimming, that's very, very unusual. I don't know what it's like in boxing, but for him to bloom that late was, you know, it was really a compelling thing, but let's take it back, man. It starts at eight. You know, I kind of know the story, but it's interesting, man, how you got on a little scrap and your dad took you down to the gym. Yeah, well, it's interesting. I was playing a million different sports growing up and my parents were from inner city Chicago, grew up really tough background. My

dad didn't even graduate high school, but created a life for me and my sister that they never had. So I'm so grateful and appreciative of that. So while I grew up better than they did, I still had that kind of inner city toughness to me. And my dad brought me to a boxing gym at eight years old. I remember one hockey tournament, we were going through a line and shaking hands and saying, you know, good game, good game. And this kid spit in my face. And I dropped my gloves and I punched the kid right in the face because that's what I'd seen all my heroes do, you know, on TV and fights. And I was just, I was a different kind of kid, I think.

I loved competition and sports. And after that, my dad took me to a boxing gym. And actually, the first time I stepped in a boxing gym at eight years old, I remember I sparred a 10-year-old and I got my ass kicked. And I went into the bathroom and I started crying. And I had a bloody nose. And it's ironic that we're kind of sitting here talking about fighting for a world title. Because as I think back to that moment, I think to myself how much I hated it. At that moment, I remember I can see it so clearly. I look in the mirror thinking I'm never getting in a ring again. So it wasn't like, oh man, this is going to be my

path. No, it wasn't. I loved sports, but right away, boxing wasn't something I loved. And it wasn't until later in life that I really got into it and that one-on-one and that competition. And most importantly, that adrenaline rush I became addicted to. I'll say there's no better feeling in the world when you get a knockout and you jump on the ropes in front of thousands of people. It's the best drug you'll ever take. Well, the stakes are high, unlike other sports. I mean, you're putting yourself in significant danger just even being there. So that in and of itself, I can't imagine

the sort of heightened adrenaline rush that comes with that. Yeah, and honestly, it's a battle of the mind too. I think a lot of people don't realize, people think boxing, yes, it's a brutal sport, but it's not just two guys slugging it out. The best in the world, it's a game of inches. It's a mental game. The guys like Muhammad Ali, Floyd Mayweather, the iconic greats understood and had that mental aspect and knew how to slow the fight down and knew how to play mind games.

And you see when you're in that ring, it's almost more mental than it is physical. It's incredible because you need to block out the 25,000 screaming fans and everything else and just focus on what you're doing. Yeah. I want to get into the whole mental aspect of it because that's really kind of where I see your edge here. But before we even do that, I'm somebody who, I'm a sports fan, but I'd be lying if I told you I knew all that much about the world of boxing. You know, my frame of reference, with the exception of watching an occasional fight on television, is just movies and television, right? So explain to me the difference between, you know, truth and fiction in terms of like what we see up on the big screen with the training and the Rocky and all of that

versus the daily reality of what your life is like. Oh, it's funny. People always ask me, is my favorite movie Rocky? And I'm like, and what is training like? So yeah, I'm not chasing chickens. I'm not running. Out in the desert. Exactly, yeah.

I mean, they amplify all that like crazy. So it's funny. Even the Creed movies, there's a lot. The new ones, there's a lot that you're like, okay, that just doesn't happen. But yeah. A lot of arm butter. Yeah, you know, it's a lot of crazy stuff going on. And I think the Rocky trend kind of started that.

But yeah, I mean, training camps are pretty intense. And especially the moment before the fight is intense. When you're in the dressing room and you know what's about to go down. But generally, training camps consist of eight to 10 weeks before a fight in your training, usually two days, six days a week. I like to take Sundays off, let my body rest and recover. And it looks like everything from sparring three, four days a week to I like to take Sundays off, let my body rest and recover. And it looks like everything from sparring three, four days a week to strength and conditioning. We do a lot of swimming. I do yoga. It changes throughout the week, but it's intense. It's the most you put your body and mind through. It really is. So when you say two a day, well, first of all, like, yeah,

Rocky's not doing yoga, you know, like cryo or like, you know, the stuff that we do now. But when you say two a day, so, and you say, okay, sparring, you know, cardio, like what, what specifically, like, all right, you go to the gym in the morning. Sure. And like, what does it look like? Like walk me through a day. So generally when I first started my career, we started out in the morning. I don't necessarily do this now.

I push everything towards the evening, but. Because of the fights at night? Because of the fights at night? Because of the fights at night, right? And I wanted to get my body acclimated. And not to mention, which we'll talk about later, when I had some health issues and started getting sick, my mornings are more of an issue for me. I'm in more pain in the mornings. So for a lot of reasons, we push training back. But generally, you have a cardio in the morning. Maybe it looks like a run. Maybe it looks like Stairmaster.

Maybe it looks like a swim. Depending on where you are in camp is how long and how difficult that is. And I really leave that up to my strength coach. And then later on in the afternoon, you're doing a boxing workout. And so as I mentioned, three, four days a week, you're sparring. And for people that don't really know sparring, essentially that's just like a fight, except you're wearing headgear and heavier gloves so you don't do as much damage to your body. But you're bringing in sparring partners that really fight the same type of style as your opponent. Right.

So you can kind of mimic that and work on your specific game plans. And some days you're sparring four rounds. Some days you're sparring four rounds, some days you're sparring 12 rounds. Closer to the fight, you kind of ramp it up. And then usually about a week out, you stop sparring. So for that eight to 10 weeks, every single day, it consists of some type of strength conditioning and some type of boxing. And then I'll also integrate in a yoga. So sometimes it is three workouts a day, or else if I'm feeling beat up after sparring, I'll tell my strength coach, hey, today let's just do yoga or get some muscle work done. So it's very fluid in terms of what my body needs, but that's generally what a training camp looks like so that you don't peak too early and that's really important. Right. So you're looking at what, like five to eight hours a day during that period of time?

Yeah. I never really break it down in terms of hours. I get that question a lot. It's more of how many training sessions, but I would say, yeah, that's a fair guess right there. And what's the recovery process for you look like? I've really dove into this world of biohacking and just really getting in touch with different ways to recover.

I was telling you earlier, I bought a infrared sauna in my home. I actually have a cold tub at my house too. Oh, nice. I bought a cold tub that I have outside. I have it set to a certain temperature, and I'll hop in there for anywhere from three to five minutes. I love that. So contrast therapy is big for me.

I started doing float tanks, and's more of the mindset side. I have a nutritionist that has me dialed in on the glutamine and what to eat and when to eat. And so, you know, and cryotherapy as well, which is also, you know, contrast therapy. So I'm always playing with a million different toys. Yeah. And what's the difference,

what does the training look like when you're not in camp? Yeah. can't you don't go into camp out of shape you don't you try not to some fighters do and that's kind of the funny thing about fighters is we fluctuate in weight so much you know because um i normally fight at 175 this fight will be at 168 i walk around at 190 pounds and so it's important in any martial artist is usually like this in UFC or boxing where the last good amount of weight is water weight, but you got to be careful that you don't come up and wait too much because you'll see guys that literally maybe they just had a big title fight and they have a few months off and they'll balloon up 20, 30 pounds. And

that's just not good for your body and organs. So I've been pretty good in discipline of in between fights. I'm not trying to kill myself. I'm doing a lot of low impact stuff, but I'm trying to keep my weight generally between 15, 20 pounds max of my fight weight. Right. So how much time do you have to drop that final amount of weight after camp and before weigh in? Well, when you go into camp, like you said, you want to be in good shape. Generally the beginning of camp, the first couple of weeks are more cardio based so that you can start to bring the weight down and get that fluidity and your body feels good at a lower weight. But I'll have eight to 10 weeks to start to bring that weight down.

I already started weeks out because in this case, I've known for a long time about this fight and signed the contract a while back. But really, that's when you get scientific about the weight drop. For instance, generally, I'll hop in the ring or I'll weigh in the day before. So 24 hours before is weigh-ins in pro boxing. And for my last junior world title, we fought at 175 pounds. I weighed in at 174.5 maybe, right? So I was under the limit. The next night, man, I had to be,

I was probably 187 pounds. You put on 10 to 12 pounds and that's common. It doesn't make any sense. It's such a weird thing. I will say this. That is the worst part of the sport. I love all aspects of the sport, but the weight cut, any fighter will tell you.

You're up there at a press conference like a day before weigh-ins, and everyone's always like, I feel great, I feel 100%, but you're cutting weight. No one wants to be there. It's like the reality of it is that. To make yourself weak and dehydrated in order to make that weight

and then try to rejuvenate yourself in a short period of time. And that's when it comes really having the right team around you becomes important because it's all about water manipulation there at the end where I will flood myself with water, drink up to two gallons maybe a week before weigh-ins, and then systematically bring it down maybe to a gallon two gallons maybe a week before weigh-ins, and then systematically bring it down maybe to a gallon, to half a gallon, 0.25, where my body already thinks it's overhydrated. So when I hop in the sauna or I hop in a hot bath and I sweat out the rest of that excess water weight,

I'm not too depleted. My body isn't in shock. And then at that point, you hop off the scale, and it's the best feeling in world. Like I get more nervous for weigh-ins sometimes than I do for the actual fight. That's so strange. Does anyone just say fuck it and like I'm just going to fight where I'm at? Yeah. So some guys do that. For instance, I think when Floyd fought Juan Manuel Marquez, and granted he's in a position to say fuck it more than a lot of people because there's strict penalties.

So for this fight in particular, there'll be a penalty of probably $50,000 per pound for me if I go over. But they'll still let you fight. They'll still let me fight. But if you don't make that weight and it's a title fight, you're not fighting for winning the belt. So if you don't get that weight or under, even you win that fight, you can't be the world champion. I got you. But Floyd came in, I think, maybe two to four pounds overweight at one point. And I think it was a mental game,

but he kind of just said, fuck it. I think he got fined like $200,000. But the purses are so huge. It's like, who cares, right? Exactly. Yeah. Especially for a dude like that. It's just another level. So he was like, fuck it. So I won't buy another car. Right. All right. So you're eight years old. Your dad's like, I'm taking you to the gym. You're going to work this stuff out here. Yeah. This kid's got a lot of energy. When does the switch flick and you're like, this is what I want to do. So it's interesting. I started getting more into boxing at about

15 years old. You were playing football. I was playing football, hockey, baseball, basketball. I'm a very unique situation or person where it's ironic that I'm a professional fighter and at this level, but I actually don't enjoy conflict. I really don't. I'm not a fighter. If you meet me outside, majority of people say, I can't believe you're a boxer. I don't enjoy conflict. I'm not a fighter. If you meet me outside, most people, majority of people say, I can't believe you're a boxer.

I don't enjoy conflict. I'm not an aggressive person. I don't get in fights outside the ring, not to mention I get in a lot of trouble now. It's probably like a federal offense since I'm a pro, but that's just never been me. But when it came to sports, I was extremely aggressive. Sports and competition, when the bell rang or the whistle blew, I was a different animal. And for instance, on my hockey team in Little League, I played goalie. I had the most penalty minutes on the team, and I was a goalie. And anybody that knows hockey is like,

what are you doing? That's tough to do, man. Yeah, it's tough to do. So where does that come from? I don't know. I think probably from my father. My dad played minor league ball for the twins and he was a professional racquetball player and he's very type A aggressive Chicago Italian dude. And I think he had this ideology that he instilled in us that win, win, win, like always keep pushing, always keep winning. And for better or worse, it made me the person I am, even though he set really high expectations for me that sometimes I didn't meet. But that's where this competitive nature came in. So it was about 15 years old. I went to Notre Dame. So Notre Dame has a boxing team and they have this huge event called the Bengal Bouts. And they have about a few thousand people that come to it and the kids in the school

fight in a big tournament. And I think I first went to that tournament about 15 years old. And I saw Rudy when I was like 10 years old. Being a kid from Chicago, I was like, I got to go to Notre Dame. When I saw this event, I said to myself, not only am I going to go to Notre Dame, I'm going to be a boxer there. I'm going to get good enough to be a boxer there. And that's really when it kind of took off. And I started getting better and better. And I was sparring pros by the time I was 16 years old. So you go to high school and then you hit the gym afterwards or what did that look like at that time? Yeah. So I had, and once again, a little bit of a two sides of the coin here.

I was working in finance. So two things I loved were finance and fighting. Even in high school, I first got an internship at the Chicago Board of Trade, and I was down in the pits, and I loved that adrenaline rush of people. Everyone's screaming. Screaming orders. And so in the summers during the day, I'd be at the Chicago Board of Trade, and then at night I would go to the boxing gym. So all throughout high school, I was playing other sports and continuing to go to the boxing gym.

I started at this place called Windy City Gym in Chicago, and there were a lot of great fighters out of there. And throughout high school, I started getting better and better. And then my freshman year, I ended up going to University of Missouri. To be quite honest, I didn't have the grades to get into Notre Dame. And I really didn't take school seriously. I took sports seriously, but I didn't take school seriously. Were you playing ball at Missouri? No, no, I wanted to. I was planning on walking on for a football team because I was getting really good at football and baseball. And I knew I wanted to play sports. I just didn't know what I loved.

But it was interesting with boxing training. I love the training aspect of it with football, baseball, basketball. I hated practice. And that's kind of how I knew, okay, if I'm going to get really good at this, I need to choose something that I'm passionate about and I can't stop thinking about and I fucking love. I truly believe in that for anything you want to do. If you don't in your core love this shit, especially the pain that we go through, don't even mess around with it. I realized maybe around 17, 18 that I loved boxing. I ended up transferring after my freshman year into Notre Dame because this was just my goal and vision. And I busted my ass to get the best grades of my life in Mizzou.

I transferred in and I joined the boxing team. And the love of the sport just took off. Is boxing an NCAA sport? No, it's not. Yeah. So how did that work? So it was a club sport where you had some kids who had fought before. So you had some talented kids, but then a lot of kids that were athletes.

It originally started by Newt Rockne, the famous Notre Dame coach. And so there are a lot of Notre Dame football players that were in it. And so that's kind of how the tournament started. And so you get a lot of good athletes that are in it. But so I did well there and I won all three years I was there, but it was really when I well there, and I won all three years I was there. But it was really when I started fighting. I fought in the Chicago Golden Gloves, and I won my class in that right around my senior year of college. And then I started fighting and training in different pro camps,

and that's when Top Rank came along. Top Rank's arguably one of the best promotional companies in the world. So Bob Arum in Top Rank, Manny Pacquiao, Floyd Mayweather, Oscar De La Hoya, they're all signed by him. So when I started doing well in pro camps and getting the attention of Top Rank and winning a lot of amateur fights,

getting a call from them was like getting a call from the New York Yankees, man. Well, you just breezed through like a whole thing that I want to get into a little bit more deeply. So first of all, it's super unusual for there even to be a boxing club breeze through like a whole thing that I want to get into a little bit more deeply. But so, well, first of all, it's super unusual for there even to be a boxing club in college. Like, I don't think there are many colleges that even have that, but Notre Dame for whatever reason, because of Newt Rockne or whatever, has this tradition that has to do with the Bengal bouts and the service elements of that, that we can talk about. You go into Bangladesh and all of that.

But it is interesting that there's this culture around boxing at Notre Dame. Yeah. Well, it's the fighting Irish. Yeah, that's right. You know, our team my year, I ended up being captain of the team my senior year. We had about 200 guys, and now they actually have a women's division as well. So you got some badass chicks that are in there fighting it out. So the club has really grown since it started, I think in 1934 or something.

But as you mentioned, yeah, it has this service element to it, which is incredible. Like my year alone from ticket sales and everything, we raised over $100,000, and it goes to the Holy Cross Missions in Bangladesh. It was really Notre Dame, first going to Notre Dame that instilled this idea of giving back. And so I ended up going to Bangladesh for about two weeks and helping build some schools out there, which were helping teach English and provide the basic necessities for these kids. And that was my first time going

out there my senior year of college to Bangladesh where it was really an eye-opener and I realized how grateful I am and how much living here in America we have and how little the rest of the world has and it really taught me a lot of gratitude yeah and you're able to kind of harness that and and still like hold that experience tight and it informs kind of your perspective today I still think about it I remember walking through the slums of Bangladesh and seeing kids and they had these big smiles on their face. And it's such a cool thing to see when we'd walk up and help and we'd give them boxing gloves or food and water. And they had these big smiles on their face. And I was like, these kids are living on dirt floors. When I go back, I'm not going to complain. Like life is beautiful.

Life is good. And I'm lucky to be born in this country. And it really changed my perspective on things as a young man. So you start to have some success. You win Chicago Golden Gloves. But meanwhile, you kind of have these finance aspirations, right? So there was kind of a fork in the path. You could have gone to Wall Street, and you had to make this decision whether to pursue that kind of career or to go full in on sport.

So my senior year in college, I was studying finance, and I actually went through a few interviews. I had internships at an investment bank, at the Chicago Board of Trade, and like I said, it was finance and fighting. But my love was boxing, man. And I just knew that I had a shot to do something. And I knew that finance could wait. And I actually, right around when we were getting offers to turn pro, towards the end

of my senior year, I had a lot of people that told me not to do it. And obviously, listen, I know people have died in the ring. People get hurt just like any other contact sport. I knew the risks involved and they were like, you have a finance degree from Notre Dame. Why are you doing this? And I kid you not, you can't even write this. About a month before I got that call from top rank, something changed my life. I was reading this study and I was going back and forth trying to decide, do these mentors who are telling me to not do it, are they right? Should I listen to my heart and go for it? What the study did is they interviewed people from all over the world. And I was reading this

in my dorm room, different races, different religions, different ethnicities. The only thing these people had in common is they were all on their deathbed. They're all dying. They wanted to see what was going through the minds of people that were dying, right? What they found is they regretted the things they didn't do more than the things they did. I think some people may have heard this study or heard about it, but I never knew this, right? And I'll never forget sitting there. Once again, I can see this moment clearly sitting in my room in college and reading that study on the computer and saying right then and there, that's not going to be me. Fuck it. I'm going for this. I'm going to chase my dream because whether my first fight, I get knocked out or I break my nose, I never fight again, or I fight for a world title one

day, which we're about to do, at least I can go to bed at night knowing that, fuck it, I went for it. Yeah, man. You don't want to be that guy who spends his day on the trading floor and then goes to the bar with his buddies and talks about how you could have been a contender. Exactly. Yeah. Look at that. People say, that could have been me, man. And you're like, yeah, okay, Mike. Yeah, okay. Have another one, right? Yeah, exactly. So you get success like pretty swiftly.

Like things kind of kick into high gear for you. Yeah, I mean, things went fast early. I started out winning some fights and they were building me up the right way. You start out with four rounders, six rounders. And then I got some notoriety that most fighters don't get early in their career. I had a sponsorship from Subway and I ended up doing 16 national commercials and two Super Bowl commercials.

How did that happen? Dude, so I have a good friend of mine. You were on the come, but it wasn't like... No, I was an unknown. I was 4-0 at the time. I just fought on espn it was my first televised fight um and i had a good friend of mine uh his name is tom bucey and he had a lot of connections and become he's become a mentor of mine and has been in the media

world and he knew the cmo of subway at the time and so he i just fought on espn and he said listen you know i actually it's funny. So I met him in New York, right? And this is the first time I met him because he was a friend of another friend, right? And the first lunch that we had, and the lunch was all about maybe some sponsorship opportunities for me. He could be a good connection. And I'd have many lunches and dinners like this because you never know where they lead.

The first lunch we had, this guy tried to convince me basically not to box. And he was like, why are you doing this? And we still talk about this to this day. And he says that he saw the passion and fire in my eyes. And that's when he kind of knew, okay, I'm going to help this kid out. I'm going to see if I can get him some sponsors and kind of help him along the way. And sure enough, he said, can you stay in New York another couple of days? I want you to meet one of the heads of Subway. So I said, absolutely. I mean, I've been eating Subway since I was eight years old. Michael Phelps, Ryan Howard, Laila Ali, Nastia Lute, all these incredible athletes were on Subway commercials. So I'll never forget sitting down with the Subway team and they grilled me. Literally, I'll remember forget sitting down with the Subway team, and they grilled me.

Literally, I remember sitting there in New York, and I have a suit on. I'm all nervous, and I'm talking to the CMO and the head of athletes, and they're like, well, the first thing we want you to know is that we don't just sponsor athletes. We have famous fans, so we actually have people that enjoy our restaurants and actually eat it.

So they basically were saying, are you lying about eating Subway constantly? And I was like, yeah. And they were like, what's your favorite sandwich? I was like, oh, I always get the six-inch turkey. They were like, no, no, no, no. Walk me down the line like you're at Subway and tell me exactly what you get. I kid you not. But I nailed it because I actually do go.

And I was like, all right, let's do it. So I walk up and I say, I want the six-inch turkey. I want no cheese, yada, yada. And I nailed it because I actually do go and I was like, all right, let's do it. So I walk up and I say, I want the six inch turkey. I want no cheese, yada, yada, yada. And I go down the line and they just seemed disinterested. And I remember them being on their phones and one guy telling me, I'm the one who signed Michael Phelps. Tell us why you at 4-0 should be on this. And I felt like I was begging for my supper. I remember leaving that meeting and calling my dad and I was so sad. I was like, man, they just didn't like me that I don't understand what I did wrong. I thought I told him about my hopes and dreams and it worked out. And he's like,

don't worry about it. He goes, you know, you might have a hundred of those meetings. All you need is one. So I'm sitting in this pizza shop, like literally drowning my sorrows in food. And my dad calls me up two hours later and he goes, man, I don't know what you did, but the head of Subway just called. They want to put you on a plane and get you to Paramount Studios and film your first commercial. And I was like, holy shit, let's do it. So what did you misread? I think they were holding their cards close to their chest kind of thing. And a lot of the people that I met were like, wow, such an incredible story. I love this. And maybe it's just their New York East Coast demeanor that

they just weren't impressed. But I don't know what it was. I mean, maybe they were just, I think they were impressed. They just didn't want me to know maybe. But for whatever reason, next thing I know, I'm in LA shooting Subway commercials. And less than a year later, I'm sitting around with friends watching the Super Bowl. And there I pop up and say, Mike Lee, next to Michael Phelps and Ryan Howard. And I got to be honest, I felt like I don't deserve to be up there. How did the boxing community receive it? Haters. Yeah.

Which you're always going to get. It's just a little too premature, right? They felt like it was too premature, and they felt like, why is he getting this opportunity and world champions aren't? And if you're me, I just went in and killed it for him on camera. They kept saying how great I was at the enthusiasm and learning the lines and all that kind of stuff. So who wouldn't take that opportunity?

So you definitely get some people that were jealous and haters. And as an athlete, dude, you get that constantly. I'm sure you get that too, people that absolutely obsessed with the show and people that say you suck. And I've learned throughout the past 10 years how to push that out of my mind. But in the beginning, that really used to hurt me, man. I used to go on Twitter. I used to see articles and people that said I wasn't good enough. I sucked. I was this,

that. And it really bothered me in my early 20s. Yeah. But meanwhile, you have all this momentum. You're kind of foisted into the spotlight and the career's going good, right? So walk me through kind of the next phase. Yeah. The next phase of my life came out of nowhere and it was a lot of pain. So I'm running on this high and I felt invisible. I'm doing national commercials. I'm getting notoriety. I'm making good money finally.

I'm fighting. I fought in Madison Square Garden. I fought in Cowboy Stadium. I feel like this is it. I'm on my way to the world title. Talk to me about fighting at Madison Square Garden. Dude, I just got goosebumps thinking about that. And I do every time. I mean, that is like the movies. That's the Mecca, man. And I'll never forget walking through that tunnel and thinking, once again, you're kind of thinking like, do I belong here?

Muhammad Ali and Michael Jordan and performers and everybody. When you walk through the tunnels and go in the dressing rooms and stuff, there's pictures and posters of artists and athletes and all this kind of stuff. And you hear the roar of the crowd. And I fought an undercard of Miguel Cotto versus Antonio Margarito, an HBO fight. So place was packed. And I remember walking through the tunnel and getting goosebumps and thinking, holy shit, like, I can't believe I'm here. And who would have thought? You know, it wasn't even three years ago.

I had no idea I'd even become a professional boxer. And now I'm walking through the tunnels with 22 or 20,000 people screaming. And I'm about to step in the ring like this is some gladiator shit. And it was a really cool moment. In fact, even that fight, I broke my hand. And it's cool because I have a big scar on my right hand. And I always think about it when I look at it. Talk about how incredible adrenaline is and how incredible adrenaline type factor is in your body. I broke my hand in the third round of that fight. I didn't even realize it. My hand went numb a little bit, but the pain didn't even kick in. I ended up getting a knockout with that hand one round later. We go back to the dressing room and I have a camera in my face and

I'm sitting next to my dad. And all of a sudden I look down at my hand and it's twice the size of my left one. And it's almost like, and then the pain kicked in right away. It's almost like when a kid falls and scrapes their knee and they look up to their mom. I did that to my dad. I'm like a 24-year-old adult. And I look at my hand and I look at his face and his face was like, oh shit.

And then boom, the pain kicked in. But yeah, that was a surreal moment that I'll remember to the day I die. You had another fight where you had to fight on after breaking your ribs too, right? I had one fight. I broke my rib the day I die. You had another fight where you had to fight on after breaking your ribs too, right? I had one fight. I broke my rib in the second round. I had to go eight more rounds of the broken rib.

That was some of the worst pain in my life. I was in the hospital till 4 a.m. I just kept telling myself, don't quit. I kept telling myself, do whatever you have to do. It was a sloppy fight, but I was like, do whatever you have to do to win each round. So I would throw some pot shots. I would hit them, and then I would wrap them up, try to breathe a little bit. But round two and a half, round three on, that was some of the worst pain, and you're getting hit there. Boxing has taught me how to be tough. I think after this

career, I'll be able to get through a lot because getting through those moments like that, you realize how tough the human mind is and how much you can get through. And I mean, God, you know that with your story. It's incredible. Well, when you're in these heightened moments, you have this level of self-awareness. Like you know this is a moment in my life, and I'm going gonna remember this for the rest of my days. And how this is gonna turn out depends upon what's happening in the next nanosecond. And the more you can kind of anchor yourself

in that reality, I think it kind of can override whatever, I've never fought with a broken rib, but I know what it's like to suffer. How do you override that impulse to quit or to fall back or to let your guard down? Yeah, I think that's when you need to tap into the mind. Like you said, I know for me, I knew boxing is a very unforgiving sport.

So I was undefeated. And once you have a loss on your record, it's very tough to kind of get back up you're only as good as your last fight and I knew that if I gave up in that moment and gave it up into the pain down the line I wouldn't get a chance at a world title I just kept thinking of that because that's all I worked for so I just kept thinking just push through man just just win every round get through this because if you quit now, you'll always regret it. And once again, back to that 36 minutes in one night, I knew I was just

like, dude, just get through this another, whatever, 30 minutes and you'll be good. Yeah. But that 30 minutes probably felt like eight hours. It felt so long. And I remember looking at my parents in the stands and family and they told me I just had this dead look, like I don't want to be here, that they'd never seen before. And I remember looking at my parents in the stands and family, and they told me I just had this dead look, like I don't want to be here, that they'd never seen before. And I think they hated seeing that. My sister and my mom have a tough time sitting ringside and seeing the blood and the agony.

Yeah. Wow. So this is back in, what, like 2012, 2013? That fight was more recent, actually. Madison Square Garden was the one that was 2012, I think. But I've had various different injuries along the way. Well, let's talk about the big one. I mean, you get blindsided with this situation

that you had a really hard time diagnosing for a long time. Yeah, so as I mentioned earlier, I was on this ride, man. I felt invisible. I was 8-0, 10-0. I got to 12-0. And then all of a sudden, we were getting ready for a big fight. I think it was going to be my debut on HBO. And I was down in Houston, Texas, where I lived and trained.

And all of a sudden, I just started getting really sick. I started getting extreme fatigue. I started getting incredible back pain, joint pain. I was getting headaches every single day. Depression started to extreme fatigue. I started getting incredible back pain, joint pain. I was getting headaches every single day. Depression started to kick in. And at first I thought, okay, did boxing cause this? Yeah, you're getting hit in the head a lot, man. Exactly.

You're getting the shit beat out of you. Of course you're gonna, you go to a doctor with those symptoms, he's just gonna tell you to take a break, right? And I remember we were about two weeks out from my 13th fight, and we had a media day, which a bunch of cameras show up, and you're training.

And I remember I was feeling so shitty I could barely get through these days, and I was like, what's going on? I felt like I had mono but with worse pain and headaches, and I couldn't understand it. And I went to the bathroom, and I literally almost passed out because I was pushing through so much pain. Was the pain localized or just all over your body? It was all over.

It was in a lot of my joints, but the worst pain was in my lower back and then also headaches. And then along with that just came a lot of anxiety. It was just like a momentum of bad shit going on. And so we pulled out of that fight and I was like, something's not right. And I'm glad my team cares about me and my health more than me winning the fight. I spent the next two years in and out of hospitals trying to figure out what the hell was going on with me. And I only later

found out like a year and a half in that I got diagnosed with an autoimmune disease known as ankylosing spondylitis. I had this marker, this gene HLA B27 that we learned through blood tests and then also just through x-rays and symptoms. It's something that I think, you know, maybe I couldn't avoid like boxing maybe didn't cause it. And, you know, cause you go to all these different doctors and this is very common for people that have auto immune diseases. Some people don't get diagnosed for like five years, 10 years. Why is it so difficult to identify these things? This is where I'm going to bash modern medicine and Western medicine.

But I think that ultimately, we need to look at the body in a holistic way. And it wasn't until I started going to functional medicine doctors that really understood. For instance, I walked into some of the best rheumatologists, some of the best doctors in the world. I did one program at Northwestern that was called the VIP program. I think I paid $10,000 out of pocket just to have every top doctor of each department meet with me, analyze me, what their expertise is. And then they sit in a room and they try to figure out what was wrong with me. Right. And they saw,

and they couldn't, I get in this fucking room and the head guy says, we think you need to see a psychiatrist and I'll never forget looking at him. And I basically said, fuck you. And I walked out and he called me later and I apologized. And I said, listen,

dude, this isn't that like, I'll go see a psychiatrist. And I saw one for three months, nothing changed. And I said, trust me, dude, something's going on. But I realized throughout this process, they didn't analyze what I was eating and they didn't really analyze my mindset in whether I was meditating, whether stress had an issue with this and really getting down to the nitty gritty until I started seeing functional medicine doctors. It's so crazy that you would go and see a battery of these top shelf

doctors and all these various disciplines. And they're not, they're not asking you any questions about diet and lifestyle. Dude, they don't find it. And you find that Western medicine in general. I mean, I walk into a rheumatologist and I tell him, I start telling him about my diet and I would come in with notes and they'd be like, you know what? We think you need to try this. We think you need to try this. It was all prescription drugs. At one point I was on eight different drugs, right? You know, the side effects that come along with that. I was having full blown anxiety attacks. Then I was depressed. So they threw me on Lexapro. I was just a shit show. You know, it was the worst time of my life. I didn't know I was having terrible thoughts, even suicidal thoughts, because I was so depressed and everything was

taken from me. And I was in pain every day. And so it wasn't until we really identified what was wrong and I could start to tap in to diet, lifestyle, get the proper medication, and start doing the proper things that I could really heal myself. And this was like a two-year period. This was a two-year period, and it's not over. I'm so much better than I am, but it was like a two to four-year period. I think this was 2012 to about 2016, where I'd have a few fights, and I kept pushing, and then I would relapse. And I'd have moments where that medication didn't work. And I was on Humira for years

and that was giving me rashes and I wasn't feeling good, but I needed it. And I went from eight medications down to zero. And dude, I couldn't be more proud of that. So walk me through the process of being properly diagnosed and then getting on a protocol that's worked for you. Yeah, I saw another, it was one of many rheumatologists I saw

and he basically told me, I said, can I still box? And he said, you can, but I wouldn't and life's gonna be tough for you. And I remember thinking in that stage, I've got through a lot of shit, like this fucking guy doesn't know, like this is in my mind, I'm gonna cure this. And I truly believe, for instance, I've got through a lot of shit. Like this fucking guy doesn't know. Like this is in my mind. I'm going to cure this.

And I truly believe, for instance, I was on Humira, which I'm no longer on. I was on it for years. And I think it got me to a place where it helped me. But I knew that this wasn't something I'm going to take for the rest of my life. I'm not telling people don't stay on the drugs your doctors recommend. But I knew in my heart that I needed to get down to even like a spiritual level, a mindset level of where I started meditating. Like I would be in hospital beds, dude, and I would read Tony Robbins, Dr. Joe Dispenza, books by Viktor Frankl. Like I started consuming myself with this knowledge because I was like, I'm so over this.

And I started learning about these incredible stories of people healing themselves through their mind and through diet and through alternative medicine. And I was like, I'm going to do this. That's going to be me. And so that's when really I started taking IgG tests and doing elimination diets. And I started taking like CBD, which I'm huge on and why I co-founded my company, Soul CBD, started helping me a ton and why I started meditating, like really learning about visualization and meditation as a daily practice. Because I truly believe that disease is caused by being in this fight or flight, right? Which I'm constantly in as a boxer. So I need to get myself back into that calm, parasympathetic mindset so that my body can

heal and recover. And for eight, 10 years, I just wasn't doing that. And so, yeah, that was the main thing. Yeah, it's almost like an Ayurvedic perspective that your body is comprised of all of these systems. And when they're not like in a synchronous, kind of communication with each other and in balance, then your body's not able to prepare itself.

But if you can just get to that place, then the body actually knows what to do. And this is not to bash Western medicine. Western medicine is amazing for all manner of acute things. But obviously, this was missed for you and you found your solution in alternative methodologies, which is super interesting. I mean, this AS is an autoimmune disorder

that's kind of localized in the spine, right? So a lot of my pain, to this day, it's gotten so much better, but I wake up in some type of pain every single day. Some days are a lot better than others, and I just need to really dial in. And even when I'm in training camp, I push my body hard.

But for a good four years, I woke up in incredible back pain, incredible joint pain. But when I started changing all these things that we just talked about, the headaches went away. I don't get headaches anymore. I had headaches every single day.

And I had this type of pain and fatigue. I mean, the fatigue was brutal, dude. And how much of that was being depressed versus the disease, I'm not sure. But I actually, I started learning a lot from other people. I kept it secret and I was almost embarrassed about it for years. And then I decided to write about it. One night I couldn't sleep and I wrote and wrote and wrote. And I ended up submitting my paper, I called it Invisible Pain, to the Players' Tribune. It's a platform that Derek Jeter started where athletes write about their experiences.

And I was super open and vulnerable, man. I talked about what I'd gone through and other people that had gone through this that inspired me to get better. And I was super nervous to put that out because normally I was not very open about it. super nervous to put that out because normally I was not very open about it. But man, I received hundreds, if not up into the thousands of messages on Facebook, email, Twitter, being like, I have an autoimmune disease or I had this happen. Your story inspired me. I have people that I still connect with on a daily basis that I haven't even met that are like, I just ran an Ironman or I just did a Spartan race. I had this autoimmune disease. You inspired me to get back in the gym. And dude, that was one of the coolest moments,

most fulfilling moments of my life. Yeah. I read the piece. It's great. It's interesting though, that you had trepidation about sharing that. Is that like a fighter thing of not showing vulnerability? Yes. Or something around like, oh, it's this weird disease no one's ever heard of. He must've made it up. I think I grew up with, I'm not going to blame my dad for this, but I grew up with a father who was very masculine and very like, you just push your problems under the rug. Our house wasn't really an open, honest communication. I think at times I had a great relationship with him, and I still do, so I don't mean to bash that. I'm just saying I thought the idea of being a man and a fighter

was just to bottle it up and not say anything. And after a while, I felt like, fuck, I need to talk to people and be vulnerable because you think about it. You go in press conferences as a fighter, and everybody says the same fucking thing. Feel 100%, man. Training camp was great. Let me tell you some bullshit.

And you know what? Honestly, I'll probably get up there at this press conference and say the same thing because it's just what you say and it's a mind game. Now I'm going to be watching. I'm going to be like, I don't want to see this. I'll probably be like, oh, I feel great, which is true, which could be true, right?

But my point is you're never getting up there and saying, well, yeah, three weeks in, we thought I broke my hand. And then I had this and that. And dude, every training camp, there's always something. Because if you're not having some type of setback in training camp, you're not training hard enough. So it's like this ebb and flow. So that's really, it was the first time I was open and vulnerable. And now I talk about it.

And I even do a little bit of speaking. I've spoken to Division I athletes, to different corporations about the mindset of getting through pain and pushing through. Dude, it's the most fulfilling thing ever. I could see myself doing that and trying to help people get out of pain after my career. The great irony, of course, being that that willingness to be vulnerable in that manner ultimately makes you stronger. You've basically built this coalition of support behind you and all these people that wanna see you do well. And I think there's an appreciation for that honesty

that in the longterm emboldens you and makes you a better, more well-rounded person, but also an athlete. Yeah. I was just afraid because at the time my contract ran out with Top Rank, and I was afraid no one would sign me. I was afraid they'd see me in damaged goods. Yeah. And it was so liberating just to say, fuck it. Wasn't that guy in a Subway commercial?

Yeah. Is that the kid? Yeah, I sold sandwiches with my shirt off for a couple of years. Well, and for two years, you're down for the count. And this is the prime of your life, right? Like what are you, 27, 28, something like that? Yeah, it's the prime of my life, prime of my career.

And no guarantee that you're gonna be able to claw your way back. I'm sure a lot of people thought, this guy's done. A lot of people did. And even,'s done a lot of people did and even i mean i remember my first fight back i fought an mbc sports and i fought another undefeated fighter and i remember the promoter at the time i heard was like we're not sure about this don't blame me with the matchmaking don't blame me if mike loses to this kid um and i won i got a six round knockout but i had so many people that doubted me, even to this day, dude.

Because I didn't have a huge amateur background. And I kind of started late. So many people that didn't believe that I would get to 10-0, 20-0, let alone, dude, fight for a world title. And that's that chip on my shoulder. I want to prove all those people wrong. And I even want to prove myself wrong on those days when I doubted myself laying in hospital beds. Like that's what July 20th is about for me, dude. Like I know I'm going to win this fight, but win or lose, I've accomplished so much because I had those days literally laying in the hospital where I was like, I thought I was never going to do anything with my life,

let alone like I thought about whether I should continue my life. So it's about like proving those people, but most importantly, like proving myself wrong. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Being able to channel that negativity into fuel. Yeah, I think so. Which, I mean, don't get me wrong. Like when people say, you know, they talk shit or there's haters out there, it still affects you.

Like everybody's a human, but nothing like in the way it did before. Now it just rolls off. So let's talk about the mindset game. You kind of mentioned at the outset, you know, there's so much more to boxing than meets the eye. It really is the sweet science. much more to boxing than meets the eye. It really is the sweet science. And it's the attitude, the frame of mind, the ability to be present and everything that gets packed into what's between the ears when you step onto the ring that's going to make the difference. And you've got a lot of really interesting practices around this that I want to learn more about. Well, I started seeing a sports psychologist kind of early in my career.

I think maybe I was training with other professional athletes at this gym called Plex in Houston. And I think someone referred me to this guy. And I remember at the time thinking, why am I seeing a psychiatrist? I'm not going crazy. Is this pre the Tony Robbins, Viktor Frankl? Yeah.

Okay. This is pre. This is when I was like, I just want to run through. A brash. Yeah, yeah. Like smash people. It was very like Rocky-esque. But that started opening my eyes up to visualization especially.

I didn't get into meditation and a lot of the other things I do until after I got sick and later on, but I started early in my career visualizing fights, right? Because there's all this study and evidence out there that the brain really doesn't know the difference between perception and reality. For instance, and I talk about this all the time, you can give yourself a heart attack just from stress and your thoughts, right? That's fucking crazy. That's a physical manifestation that could kill you all because of your mind, right? So I was thinking, who's to say the opposite can't happen? So I will visualize every single fight and what I want to happen with extreme clarity. And what I learned is I do it with all five senses.

I'll literally think about what it looks like that night when I step in, what it smells like, what the blood and sweat will taste like. And I walk through these moments. Maybe sometimes it's five minutes a day. Sometimes it's 30 minutes, whatever I can get into. But it's crazy that when I step into the ring, my heart rate's lower and my cortisol levels are lower and I feel calmer and I feel in flow state because I think my brain is like, oh, you've already been here hundreds of times. So I've done that every single fight of my career. And now I'm trying to learn how to do it for other things. Like, you know, maybe I'm speaking in front of hundreds of people

and that makes me nervous or whatever it is. But I truly believe in that brain body connection. Yeah, I learned visualization techniques very young. I had a coach, a swim coach who walked me through this when I must've been like 14 and kind of developed a habit around that at that time. And I started to get almost obsessive compulsive about it, where I would, like, if I had a huge meet, like I know the natatorium, you know, I know what lane I'm going to be in. And I could do a visualization that would take me an hour to go through a race

that was only two minutes long because every little detail, like this is what the bottom of my foot is going to feel like when I step on that block. And this is what the temperature, like every minutia of it, but the difference, I'm taking this in a place that I'm going to want your input on the difference being like in swimming, you can control not all the variables, but most of them. You're diving into a pool. It's just you in a lane and the black line on the bottom of the pool. And there's not going to be a lot of intervening things to kind of throw you off whatever trajectory you're on. But to perform a visualization for a fight, it's almost the opposite. Like you want, as soon

as the fight starts, there's 8 billion permutations of what can happen. So how can you possibly, uh, visualize every aspect of that so that you can create that, you know, safe, comfortable place? It's a great question. I've actually, I've never gotten that question. Um, I create different scenarios. I never think of myself as losing, ever. But I will create scenarios where I got knocked down and I'll get back up. Or scenarios where I lost that round and I'll get back in it. Majority of it is positive. I don't take it to a dark place.

But you're exactly right. I mean, shit can change quickly. One shot can change a fight. So I guess for me, what's most important is that before the fight starts, I'm calm. That when the fight starts, my heart rate isn't at a crazy 180, 190 or whatever it is. I'm as calm as can be while the fight starts. But you're right. I mean, there's degrees of variability that you just can't account for. And do you do a specific visualization for your opponent so that you're like,

oh, I know this person always, this is his move. And I know how to like, you know, this is what I'm going to do in response to that. So that's all like super rehearsed mentally. Yes. I'll dive into what the opponent looks like, what they're doing. So I really feel like that this is the 300th time we fought together. So I'll think about everything between,

do they have facial hair? You know, do they have tattoos? What their style is? When I throw that punch, what do they usually do? And it kind of helps me prepare in training too. Because I'll think like, okay, anytime a guy is double jabbing against him, he's usually countering with this.

So I'm kind of playing those games in my mind. And I like it. It kind of gives me, it calms me down, you know, because there's so many unknowns in boxing that I feel like it gives me a sense of, okay, like no matter what, I got this. Does that make sense? Yeah. Yeah, for sure. And it's, I mean, it's a great life skill that, like you said, you can use for anything in life, you know, not just sport, but business. Anytime you have to do anything that is anxiety provoking to kind of prepare you for it and acclimate to success. Do you still use the visualization technique?

I do. I mean, not as, you know, I mean, when I was like super into my, now I'm doing a million different things. I do it for public speaking. Cause that definitely jacks me up a little bit. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. And when I'm calm on stage, then I do my best work. But when I'm nervous, then it's like, I can't catch my breath. And then I'm like, you space out, you don't know what you wanna say and all that kind of stuff.

What makes you more nervous? Like the crowd size or maybe the venue? A lot of it has to do with how much sleep I got. Oh, wow. So much of it. Like if I slept well and I feel good in my body and like I worked out in the morning, like, and I just feel myself, that's very calming.

It really has to do with venue. So, I mean, sometimes like a big venue with a lot of people is easier than a small room with like 10 or 15 people because then you're like locked in with this. And if they're not responding, man, you're going down. I was just gonna say that. It's funny.

And even with 10, 15 people, when you're in an auditorium, there's always gonna be someone on their cell phone. And then you see that person and it'll kind of like throw you off like, oh, I'm doing a shitty job. They don't care what I'm gonna say. But you're exactly right. When it's like 10 or 15 people, it's so intimate.

And it makes the same thing here. It makes me a little more nervous. And if it's a big venue, like you're going into Madison Square Garden, like I've been, I spoke at Carnegie Hall. Like there's an energy to that. There's a, that kind of sweeps you up. It's almost like, and I approach public speaking

like I approach athletic events. It's a very similar preparation. Yeah, that's a great point. Because when it's a small crowd, you need to bring the energy. You're right. If it's a big venue, the energy is already there. So you just kind of ride with it.

Right, and it's easy to be excited because there's a lot of people and all that kind of stuff. Yeah, exactly. All right, so visualization, what else? What else is part of the toolbox? I really started getting into meditating a lot of people and all that kind of stuff. Yeah, exactly. All right, so visualization. What else? What else is part of the toolbox? I really started getting into meditating a lot. As I mentioned, I'm in such fight or flight. And if anything, that's more for my health.

I will find that if I'm very stressed about something or overworked, for instance, like I said, I started this company a few months back. So literally the past few months is like trying to work on the company and then also training. And once I very soon here get into training camp, like I completely put that to the side. But there's so many things running through my head that meditation, whether it's even like five minutes to 30 minutes, whatever it is that day, I feel like really kind of like calms me down. Do you have a specific type of meditation? So I use the calm app, you know, I'm kind of, like I said, I'm no master by any means. Like I can't go into a room with complete silence for an hour or two hours. Like that shit is, that's like next level stuff, which hopefully I'll get to. So I do like guided meditation, um, calm or unplugged or

whatever it is. Um, and that's, you. And that's pretty consistent for me. And I enjoy kind of being talked through that. Another thing I love doing is breathing. And I think obviously this goes along with meditation. But for instance, there's a breathing technique that I'll do in the dressing room. This guy, Dr. Andrew Weil, created it. It's called 4-7-8 breathing. And essentially it's inhale through the nose for four seconds, hold for seven,

and then audibly exhale for eight. And it's just a way to like calm your nervous system down. And I'll do about four cycles of that. And I do it in the dressing room and all of a sudden my heart rate drops. So breathing techniques, ones like that really kind of helped me get into it. And I'll even do it, you know, right before I have to go into training. Do you do that when you start to feel a flare up from the AS? I will, man. And the part of it is like, is it the chicken or the egg? And I think most people with autoimmunity deal with this. It's like, am I having a flare up today because I'm stressed? Or am I stressed because I'm having a flare up? So you don't know, but I just have to trust the process and keep doing it. Cause there's some days when I get into meditation where I'm like, damn, I feel calm.

I feel loose. And there's other days where I was like, this is bullshit. Like, why am I meditating? Like, I'm not going to lie. So the key is just being consistent with it for me, you know? And the cold therapy too, right? Yeah, man. That's part of it.

Yeah. So I mentioned I have the infrared sauna in my home that I got that really helps. All these studies show it helps with rheumatoid arthritis and different autoimmunity. And then I bought a cold plunge. And I usually set it anywhere from like 36 to 40 degrees. So it's pretty damn cold. And I have it out on my patio. And I just lift up the top.

And I jump in for three to five minutes kind of a thing and just freeze my ass off. But I love that. It's like cryotherapy times 10. Well, all of these practices are anti-inflammatory, right? Exactly. It's all about reducing the inflammation. So there must be certain foods

that you have to avoid for that purpose as well. Yeah, so I went back and forth. And as I mentioned, I did IgG testing. But I really recommend that people dive into foods because food is medicine. And so for me, when I'm gluten-free and dairy-free, I'm really good. I did that whole thing where say no to nightshades, say no to nuts. I did what's known as the AIP, elimination diet, where you do it. I did it for like 60 days and you're basically eating nothing.

It's terrible and miserable. I noticed no effects of it. So I ended up being like, okay, these type of foods aren't an issue for me, like nightshades and all that kind of stuff. So it's so detailed to exactly who you are. There's no blanket term. And once again, the issue with Western medicine, it's incredible. Western medicine saves lives every day, but it's too blanket in general. And I think diet is so specific based on your genes and your lifestyle and all those things. So yeah, I say gluten-free, dairy-free, that really helps with flare-ups. And I just to eat as clean as possible. Yeah. Do you cook all your own meals?

I cook a lot, but I have my meals prepared for me. So like for instance, this camp, I'm working with a nutritionist. His name's Andy Galpin. He's phenomenal. Yeah, I know. Yeah. He used to run the Red Bull Performance Lab, right? Andy's done all, yeah. He's been on Rogan a few times talking about a lot of this stuff. He's just a brilliant guy. He's worked with fighters, so he's going to help me with a whole array of things. But essentially kind of helping me find someone's going to cook for me and have the meals planned out. That way there's no guessing in it.

And he tells me what to eat, and I eat it. That's the best way in training camp. But when I'm out of training camp, yeah, I cook myself. Right. So you're not in training camp right now, but you're getting ready to? As we are now, it started. I mean, we're pretty far out, but I've been training. It's not every day crazy, but definitely a few days a week with cardio, with boxing. I've actually been sparring already. I want to come into this camp. This is the biggest fight of my life. I want to come to this camp ready. That way, if I'm peaking too early, we can pull back and I don't have to worry

about it. So I've already kind of started implementing the diet. So when does camp officially start? Probably May 1st. And do you go out of town for that? Are you doing that here? I have before. So we've gone up to Big Bear. We've done high elevation before. I got a chance to train where Triple G, Gennady Golovkin trains, and Shane Mosley's up there a lot. And I've also done training camps. And altitude. And altitude. Altitude's a huge aspect of it.

I actually did one training camp. Actually, the fight before Madison Square Garden, we trained in Mexico City because I was with another fighter at a world title fight there. And I remember the first day I got there in Mexico City, walking up the stairs i was out of breath yeah and i was like oh shit i'm like i have to fight a human being here i'm out of breath walking up the stairs but then once you got acclimated it was phenomenal um this camp i'm gonna stay in la i don't need to do the high altitude i think a lot of times for fighters they they want to go away and it's like

a discipline thing yeah it's focus it's focus i never i don't like to go away. And it's like a discipline thing. Yeah, it's focus. It's focus. I don't like to go out. I'm not partying. I'm very disciplined. I know how important this is. So I'm actually more comfortable at home. Not to mention, I've got all my toys.

I've got my cold plunge infrared sauna. I've got all my doctors here. It makes more sense for me here. And there's a boxing gym on the west side that you train at? Yeah, there's a couple different I train at. I started training at a boxing gym. It was called Wild Card West. Now it's called Churchill Boxing.

Is that Pete Berg's place? Yeah, Pete's place. So I met Pete. I met Mark Wahlberg a few years back. He's a big boxing fan and we became friends and got to spend time with him on movie sets and hang out and then met Pete. Obviously they do a lot of projects together and that was just so cool to see guys at such a high level doing some really cool shit. It seems like Pete's obsessed. Pete's obsessed with boxing and he's a great guy. Um, so

Walker West in particular, and we'll train at other gyms, um, throughout the West side, but yeah, walk, walk. It's now called Churchill Boxing. But it's cool because you'll get actors and actresses that come in. I mean, I'll be in there and Jennifer Gardner, Bradley Cooper, all these really cool people. And then you'll get some of the world-class world champion fighters too. But everyone respects each other. It's a really cool kind of community. It's like only in LA.

Only in LA, man. That's where I'd be like, come on, dude, you gotta get out of town. You know, it's like, if Bradley Cooper's like, bro, come on, we're going out. Like, you wanna come to the premiere of whatever tonight? Like, then you're in a position to say no. You have to say no to that?

That's a good point, man. Yeah. That's a good point. No, you definitely say no to some tough invites and some tough things. Except Wahlberg, he's got discipline. The guy wakes up at like 2.30 in the morning to, man. Yeah. That's a good point. No, you definitely say no to some tough invites and some tough things. Except Wahlberg. He's got discipline. The guy wakes up at like 2.30 in the morning to work out.

Dude, I got to tell you, I spent a lot more time with him a few years back. He was one of the most disciplined, hardworking guys I ever met. I remember I was on the movie set for him when he filmed one of the Transformer movies. And he would be in there. We'd be hanging out. He just got done working out. and he'd be taking calls. Then he'd be learning, going over his lines. It was nonstop for him, dude.

And he'd be up at 4.30, 5 a.m. working out, so maybe two a days. And it's credit to his success. I mean, that's why he is where he is. He's a disciplined dude. It's an interesting time where there's a couple guys who've kind of flipped that equation. People sort of look at actors, oh, they're dilettantes or whatever. And you've got guys like Wahlberg and Kevin Hart and The Rock who are sharing what their day in, day out looks like. And it's like those guys are working 20 hours a day and unrelenting discipline.

I mean, I don't know when they sleep i don't know when mark sleeps i i think ultimately like i said earlier those dudes must just have passion like crazy and i know mark does of course they do you know they're like they couldn't sustain their lifestyle if they didn't if they weren't fueled by like some deep like deep deep emotional drive that's got to be it, yeah. Those guys are doing some pretty incredible stuff. Yeah, so all you got to do is go live with Wahlberg getting ready for this fight, right?

Yeah, he'd love that. Just move in. Yeah, but actually he did a great job in The Fighter, that movie. I wish they'd make a sequel. Honestly, I watch a lot of boxing movies. We were talking about Rocky earlier. The boxing is so terrible in most movies.

Is it? Mark is an athlete, and Mark actually did really well. I thought Jake Gyllenhaal did well, too. God, what was that movie? What was that called? Southpaw. Yeah, Kurt Sutter is a friend of mine who wrote that movie. Did he?

It's been in here, yeah. Okay. So I met Jack. Was he really? No, Jake was. Yeah, Jake was for that movie. He got shredded. But that was good? He'd been in here, yeah. Okay. So I met Jack. Was he really? Oh, Jake was. Yeah, Jake was for that movie. He got shredded. But that was good?

I thought it was good, yeah. And Antoine Fuqua, who's become a friend of mine as well, was the director of that movie. And he's done some stuff with Mark and whatnot. Antoine loves boxing. But Antoine really made the details of that movie. So often as a fighter, you watch the movie and you watch him, for instance, taping up in the dressing room or putting a certain glove on. You're just like, it doesn't work like that. But he really went to boxers and talked to us and talked to people in the game and was a student of the sport. And you could see it in the movie because it was like,

oh, the commission's always there watching hand wraps. Yep, those are the hand wraps that you actually wear. Those are the gloves. So everything was really dialed in. And for me as a fighter, I love seeing that. Which movie got it terribly wrong? All of them? Most of them? I'm going to get killed for this. Come on.

I mean, Rocky, man. I love Stallone. I've never met him or anything. But I think Rocky changed the game. And I love, love those movies. But yeah, dude, guys, Rocky think he's, Rocky changed the game and I love, love those movies. But yeah, dude, like guys, Rocky, he's taken haymakers and still standing and it's a ridiculous movie, but yeah, iconic.

So yeah, in terms of like actually how good, how close to the real thing it was, yeah, Rocky was way off. What, in your opinion, makes for a great boxer? Like what's the difference between a great boxer and an okay, a good boxer? Great question. I think staying calm in a heated moment. I think hand-eye coordination, and I think discipline. Often, boxing does come down to skill, but it does come down to will. It comes down to who wants it more who wants it who wants this more

essentially and i think that combination is dangerous i mean you've got guys like floyd who have incredible skill and can change the game it's a game of inches and they roll and they get you off your rhythm and um there's a few fighters like that but a lot of fights can be won with pure will um it's two guys duking it out and when when you get hit really hard, I've been hit so hard in the ring, you can't feel your legs. And I got knocked down my seventh fight. I remember getting up at the count of nine and barely beating it and thinking, what are you going to do now? You've got 45, maybe a minute left for the round, just survive. You find that some guys are great in the gym and they're incredible in the gym. it comes to fight night the lights are on there's 20 000 people it's a different story so who can mentally be calm

um in those moments i think it's the difference between good and great fighters do you think that will can be taught or is that just something that's a great question i'm not sure i think maybe it's taught in a way when you're growing up. There's certain things that are just learned. I'm not sure. Maybe it depends on your life and all that. But if you don't have that will and that gut instinct to win no matter what at a young age, you're not going to get it. I don't think you're going to get it.

How do you maintain your equanimity when you get punched in the face? Man, I mean, in a weird way, you almost have to like it. It's kind of weird. I'll tell you what, you're a little nervous or anticipatory for a fight, but once you get hit a few times, you feel better. It's weird because you're like okay i feel it i know what he's got you know and so you almost like look forward to that exchange so you're kind of like so you can so you you know what you're dealing with you mean yes you kind of know what you're dealing with um you know it's before the bell rings where you're like feeling each other out that's more nerve-wracking but once you're in the fight you're kind of like, I've gotten hit by some shots or I blocked some shots.

I feel the rhythm. You feel more comfortable. You forget about everything else. But yeah, I mean, dude, there's moments when, yeah, I got hit so hard, I broke my nose and it's just pure will, man. It's like telling yourself, stay calm and keep pushing forward.

But yeah, you gotta be a little bit sick in the head to get into this sport. Obviously, I would imagine you have certain things you're really good at, strengths in the ring, and then weaknesses when you're preparing for a fight. How do you figure out which to focus on? Is that contingent upon your opponent? Like, I'm really strong here, let's develop that, or I really need to work on these weaknesses. Yeah. So there's a famous saying in boxing styles,

make fights. And essentially what that means is whatever style your opponent has, or those two fighters will have will dictate how the fight goes. So maybe some guys are more Floyd Mayweather ask where they sit back and they counter a lot. Maybe there's some guys that are more Mike Tyson ask that come forward and are bulldozers, how those styles are dictates how the fight is. So it's important knowing what kind of style your opponent has and what your strengths are and kind of being honest with yourself and saying, okay, I need to either come forward and break this guy down and break his will, or I'm going to box him all night because that's my strength. So it really comes down in training camp, working on a few specific, whether it's punches or combinations or more of like a mindset of what you

want to do against that opponent based on their strengths and weaknesses. So styles make fights is the best way to say it. Yeah. And so with respect to Caleb specifically, do you keep that under wraps? Yeah, we definitely do. I'm not gonna sit here and say exactly what I'm doing. Here's what I'm gonna do. I'm gonna do X, Y, wait, when does this air again?

No, I mean, listen, like I said before, he's a very good boxer and he's slick. I mean, there's no one, I'm not giving away anything by saying that. He's more of a boxer. He likes to move around. I'm more, I'm a bigger guy. I'm'm coming down from 175 i'm a true light heavyweight i'm a power puncher i've got heavy hands um so it will be that game of you know boxer versus a big puncher and i can

box too i'm athletic i can move too but yeah i mean no's, anybody who knows boxing looks at our two styles and, you know, and they know what's up. What is the state of union of boxing right now? I mean, it used to kind of dominate, you know, the media when there was a big fight, like time stood still. But now with the rise of the UFC and MMA, I mean, that's really kind of taken over in a big way. And I'm interested in how you kind of perceive how boxing now fits into that world. I think boxing is coming back. I mean, you see, especially fights overseas, you see guys like Anthony Joshua, who's one of the heavyweight champions that will literally put 70,000 people in a seat in Wembley or wherever they end up fighting over there in London.

It's on a surge, but really, honestly, it comes down to the heavyweights. In the prime of boxing, in the heyday of boxing, you had American heavyweights. You had Evander Holyfield. You had Mike Tyson. People love to see big heavyweights because one punch can knock you out and change everything. And then I also think that UFC came into play and took some market share. And I think that a lot of big athletes, guys that normally would have gone into boxing,

are now going into football or going into other sports. A guy like LeBron James would have been a great heavyweight fighter, but he decided to go into basketball. And I don't blame him. He doesn't get punched in the face, and he makes hundreds of millions of dollars. And you can make that as a fighter, but it's tough to get to that point. So I think you kind of have all these factors coming into play. And then not to mention the bureaucracy and bullshit of boxing. I mean, this is a dirty sport. You've got promoters. There's no regulatory body, right? So if you think about that, you've got the NBA, the NFL, you got a commissioner in each one. Boxing is regulated state by state. So you've got promoters all over the world that are kind of just doing what they want

and promoters that hate each other to the point where they won't even work together. So then you've got a promoter that's got a great heavyweight and another heavyweight, which is the situation right now between Tyson Fury and Deontay Wilder. They should have had a rematch right away and fought. But they're essentially different promoters, different teams that can't agree on terms. So that's hurt the sport in terms of big matchups as well. Well, I think we also are due for another massive star,

like somebody like a Mike Tyson that just captures the imagination of everybody. And I think that would be like a Mike Tyson that just captures the imagination of everybody. And I think that would be like a sea change in how we all perceive the sport. I agree. I think there's some stars out there. You'd be surprised. I mean, the highest paid athlete in the world is a boxer. It's Floyd Mayweather. And I know he's retired, but then you've got Anthony Joshua. You've got a Mexican kid named Canelo Alvarez, who's a huge star. You've got Deontay Wilder, Tyson Fury. These are maybe household names, kind of, if you like sports. So I think it's doing well. Yeah. Well, we'll see what happens on July 20th, man.

I can't wait. Yeah. Do you get drug tested? Yeah. Everything by WADA, the World Anti-Doping Agency, which- You have to account for your whereabouts and all that kind of stuff. Yeah. You get tested either throughout camp or before or after the fight, and that depends on each state. But yeah, they make sure that everybody's playing on an even field, which is awesome. It's what the sport needs. Do you take supplements, any kind of supplements?

You have to be careful about that. Yeah, you got to be careful. So I'll take vitamins or anything that my nutritionist recommends or anything that I've been reading about and learning about. But first things first, I'll clear it with my lawyer because the worst thing in the world is get popped for something. And it happens. Sometimes guys get popped.

Sometimes they're lying. Sometimes they're not. But you get popped for tainted stuff and you thought you were taken. So yeah, at this level, you just got to be careful. Right. And so meanwhile, while you're pursuing this, you're also running this business. You're wearing a t-shirt of it. Yeah.

The CBD company. So walk me through. I know CBD has played a big part in your healing from AS and now has led to this kind of entrepreneurial venture. Yeah. So as I mentioned, I've always had an entrepreneurial mindset, but WADA in early 2017 approved CBD. They threw out the ban list.

And so I started taking CBD throughout this journey, and I noticed how much it helped me. And there's reports out there of it helping inflammation, sleep, anxiety. I started taking CBD throughout this journey, and I noticed how much it helped me. There's reports out there of it helping inflammation, sleep, anxiety, honestly, all the things I was having trouble with. Some people are obsessed and love it. Some people maybe don't, but there's no toxicity with it. I knew that at the time I could take it while I was taking other medications, and then I started weaning off medications. I've been taking it for years now and I'm absolutely obsessed. So my vision and why my sister and I,

her name is Angie, why we started the company, Soul CBD, was to help people with anxiety, sleep and pain. And that's where it came from. And so we started less than nine months ago and we were like, I got to share this with people, you know? And so literally after my last fight, I've been diving in as an entrepreneur. We now have about maybe four or five employees and it's just absolutely taken off like resounding testimonials from people who it helps. And if anything, I'm just, I want to spread the message that like plants can heal. You know what I mean? And one important thing of a lot of our line is we have zero THC. So I've sent this off to a lot of my buddies that play in the NFL and other professional athletes

and they care about that. So that way they know that everything you're taking is zero THC and you're fine on drug tests. Right. And do you take it topically or it's like a drop, right? Yeah, so the most efficacious way sublingually is a tincture underneath the tongue and you hold it there. That enters the blood-brain barrier faster.

And essentially what CBD does is it activates the endocannabinoid system, which all humans and mammals already have in their body. So underneath the tongue gets in faster, but we have capsule form. We have pain cream. So I'm taking it every single day. And what is the experience of taking it been for you? Like what is the impact of it? The first thing for me is it calmed anxiety.

As I mentioned on all these medications, I think just my chemical levels were messed up. And I started taking the CBD and I started noticing just general calmness and general well-being. And listen, you can point to a placebo or whatever you want. All I know is it worked for me. And so I started taking it more and more. And then as I started taking stronger doses, it started helping me with pain and inflammation. So I'll literally take it every single night and I'll take it in the morning as well, sometimes throughout the day. And it started helping me more with inflammation and sleep as well. But I started taking it for anxiety

because I was having like full-blown anxiety attacks, man. And it was crippling stuff. Yeah, I've only taken it a few times. I've never taken it to address any kind of, you know, acute symptomology. Just like, hey, you know, everyone's like taking CBD. Yeah, I know. And I took it and I didn't notice anything.

It's not like a drug where you're like, suddenly you feel different. But I did notice, I guess there was a, I'm sure it was an anxiety reducing kind of experience, but I got like really tired. Like I had like- Ah, interesting. I slept really well that night, but I just felt really tired. Like I had like, you know, I slept really well that night. But I just felt kind of a little bit, just like, like it drained me a little bit.

Yeah. And listen, I, I'm not saying it's the end all be all, and I'm not going to sit here and be like, but I'm never, he's the reason I'm back in the ring. If I had, yeah, but no, I'm not. And I'm not saying, yeah, I'm just saying like, probably everybody's different. And if I had like an acute anxiety situation or I had some kind of pain that I was trying to address, I would certainly try it for that. Yeah, I just think we're finding in general hemp and cannabis are playing huge roles. And you're seeing kind of like the conversation change as like now hemp is completely legal and certain states are legal. And I honestly think it's a plant that maybe doesn't work for some people, but is helping a ton of people. And how is it running a business when you're trying to train?

Dude, I'm busy, man. I mean, now when I get in training camp, I have a proper COO that I hired, and we have a president that we're bringing on, and we brought in proper investment. And so we have a whole team, and they know starting basically now, I'm putting my head down. I'm just training. But, yeah, there were months there after the fight that I was literally – I was in between fights. We were negotiating different contracts and fights.

But I'd be up running business, man, like taking out fires every single day, hiring, making changes. There's always something going on. But it's been fun it lights me up and I know that being an entrepreneur is something I want to do the rest of my life Is it a direct-to-consumer model?

or are you selling it in retail? Everything we sell online mysoulcbd.com everything we sell online direct-to-consumer we're planning on rolling out into retail later on in the year. But obviously, CVS and Walgreens are now running CBD as of a couple of weeks ago.

So the big guys are getting into it. But can you sell it in all 50 states? Yes, as long as it's under 0.3% THC, which we have 0% THC, which is huge. We'll probably run a full-spectrum line, which means it'll have a little bit of THC in it later on. But it fits with our brand better. And me as an athlete, we do zero THC.

But yeah, we sell to all 50 states. And what are the lessons? Somebody who came up interested in finance, potentially was headed to Wall Street, and now is wearing this entrepreneurial hat. How do the lessons of business and sport inform each other for you? That's a great question. Well, there's so many boxing analogies that I say, you get knocked down seven times, you get back up eight. Dude, I can't tell you how true that is.

There were so many days, the first, we're in our ninth month, and I've started another business before early in my career with a couple of partners that failed. And it's crazy through that failure in that business, I feel like I got my MBA. So my biggest lesson is like, if you want to go into this and be an entrepreneur or whatever it is in life, know you're going to get knocked down, dude. And you just got to know I got to get back up and tomorrow's a new day. And so there's always something that you're freaking out about. And it's about managing the highs and lows. That's what boxing and the sickness has really taught me. I've had some really high highs and I've had some really high lows.

But it's about managing those highs and lows and knowing that, like I said, you get knocked down seven times, you get back up eight. And all you can really do, there's a famous saying, my strength coach, his name's Gabe Rangel, he tells me all the time, he says he's an ex-special forces Marine. So he's one of my best friends and he's seen some terrible things overseas. He's done multiple tours and he always tells me in camp, control the controllables. And control the controllables basically means just worry and focus on what you can control. uncontrollables basically means just worry and focus on what you can control, right? When you start worrying about what if this happens, what if that happens, whether it's boxing, business, life, that's when you start to go in a wrong direction. So I always tell myself, control the controllables. And that kind of saying that Gabe taught me and that him and some of the Marines

have gone by really helps. Yeah. The more you rely on that or the more you kind of invest yourself in that, the more you realize there actually aren't that many things that you can control. You know what I mean? And most of our energy is spent obsessing on the 8 billion things that we can't control,

thinking that we can control them, but a healthy appreciation for how little control we do have over basically most of the stuff in our life allows you to more deeply focus on those few things that you can control and release the rest. Yeah, I mean, you said it beautifully. Yeah, I mean, you're training.

So all you can control is what you eat, how much you sleep and what you do when you get into the ring and you're training. And like everything else is a variable that's out of your hands. And that's speaks a lot to the meditation and mindfulness that really, the more you can be in this present moment and it's very difficult, but the more you can just focus on this present moment and control what you can control, the better off you're going to be. Um, probably the more successful you're going to be. People ask me all the time, like,

oh, you're running an ultra marathon or you're in this long race. And like when you're starting to suffer and you're in pain, like, how do you not quit? And it's like, oh, well, you'd be present and all that. But no one's punching me in the face. You know what I mean? Yeah. Throw that in there and then like try to grab, like, I don't know how you could possibly do that. Yeah, but you're going a lot longer than me with these ultra marathons.

I remember on the ride. Yeah, but time is elastic, man. You know what I mean? Like your relationship with time changes. Like I said, you're getting punched in the face. That 30 seconds feels like three hours, you know? It's a good point. I just think it's, you know, maybe we're wired differently. Cause I sit here and thinking, you know, hearing about your ultra marathons and stuff. And I think to myself, I don't think I could do that. You know, it's thing. But it's a different kind of pain, for sure. Less acute. But how do you deal with or think about fear?

I think fear is an incredible tool. Because fear, in a sense, is the reason why I'm going to train my ass off for this fight. And fear is why I work so hard to build my business. A healthy fear, I think, is important. I like this saying, courage isn't about not being scared, not having fear. Courage is about pushing through it. So I think if you can use fear as a tool and almost like a counterpunch, sorry for more of the puns, but you roll off the punches and you counter punch. I think it's a beautiful thing. So having that fear, if I didn't have fear, I wouldn't train. I wouldn't train hard. I'd be like, whatever. But when stakes are high,

that fear I kind of use as an asset. What about when you're in the ring? what about when you're in the ring? When you're in the ring, I'm more scared of losing than getting hurt. I'm more scared of messing up than getting hurt, which as I say out loud is probably crazy and stupid because the first thing you should think about is your safety, but I'm more concerned with winning. And so for me, that fear, it's a different type of fear. I know from the outside looking in, it looks like a brutal sport and intense, and it is,

but it's more of a fear of not performing well. And when you're in the ring, like I said, you just have to stay calm and just trust the process. And listen, some fights don't go your way, and it is what it is. But at the end of the day, like I said before about the reason I wanted to turn pro, there's a weird thing in boxing where, and I've hopped in the ring in fights where maybe I didn't train as hard as I should have. And that little sense of doubt, like, fuck, could I have run another mile? Could I have sparred another round? That'll kill you. So if you go all out and you give it everything you have in training camp, you can step into the ring with this feeling

because I've had both feelings both ways, but you can step into that ring and feel like, well, dude, no matter what, like I did everything I could to prepare for this. So let's just let the chips fall where they may. Yeah. Have you ever been hit so hard or in a situation where you're like,

I can't do this anymore, man. Yeah, for sure. I mean, the broken rib, the, when I broke my nose, um, when I got knocked down my six or seven fight, um, you have those moments of like doubt and you can't do this, but, you know, I'd be lying if I said I didn't, but ultimately the will to win and push forward I'd be lying if I said I didn't, but ultimately the will to win and push forward kind of overcomes that. But yeah, I mean, I'm human, man. You get those moments

and this is an elite level we're fighting at and talented guys. And so, yeah, I think anybody who doesn't say they've had moments like that, they're probably lying. Yeah. Well, walk me through the kind of ritual, like the pre-match ritual.

And the reason I want to explore this a little bit is I think for anybody who's listening, we all have things that we're working towards, whether it's a big presentation to your boss or you're going to run your first marathon or you're going to give your first speech or whatever it is, like there's always, you know, something looming in the distance that we're kind of trying to gear up to be our best self for. And I think there's something to be said for really canonizing like a specific approach to those events so that you can show up and be your best self. And that's going to look different for different people. But, you. But what is your ritual for getting your head right when you're right on the precipice of walking out there? Well, like I said, I do the breathing technique back there in the weeks before I'd been visualizing. Every morning when we're in the hotel and about to leave for the arena, I say a little prayer,

and I kind of do a little visualization. And I kind of thank God and basically wish for both of us to – I honestly do. I wish for both of us to come out healthy. When I go in there, I don't wish ill will on my opponent. I never have. And I've even had opponents that have in a face-off literally call me the most ridiculous shit you'd imagine and F you this and F you that. And when I step in the ring and the bell rings, I'm not thinking about hurting them out of anger.

I'm only thinking winning. And I'll do anything to win, right? But I saw- Anger is not a great fuel source. Not for me. And maybe, like I said, Tyson, it was. But for me, when I come out of the ring, you usually see me, I'm smiling. Like, dude, I'm smiling. I feel loose. When I'm loose and I feel like I'm having

fun, I perform better. When I perform like I'm going to kill this dude, I don't, when I'm thinking that, I don't perform well. So I always kind of say prayer every single one. And I say, let me perform the best I can. Thank you for this opportunity. Let's keep us both healthy, but let me do my thing. And it's really just little things like superstitions. For instance, I always put my left sock on, my left wrap on, my left glove on every single time. Everything is left first, left shoe. So these little superstitions give me comfort. But yeah, it's staying calm and breathing and kind of moving through it and then just kind of doing the damn thing.

So it's one of those things that I think if you can find your routine, you're going to be well off. It's when there's too many other variables that you can't control that you really kind of get thrown off course. So for me, it's like trying to wear the same thing and say the same things in my head and eat the same thing before I get in the dressing room and wrapped up.

And all that kind of gives me a little bit of confidence. Yeah, but none of that is a value if you haven't been doing it all along, like you haven't put all the work in, right? So you show up on that day, and it just unfolds in the way that you visualized it because you visualized it a million times, and it feels comfortable and normal. Yeah, I remember my first fight. I fought actually on national TV. I fought on Fox Sports, and I fought my hometown, Chicago. on a Fox Sports and I fought my hometown Chicago. And I remember you get to the arena and we were walking in and I remember walking towards the ring just to take a look at it before anybody came in.

And I was so nervous, I couldn't feel my legs. And I thought to myself, shit, this better go away. And it was my first pro fight. And it's such a different world because in the amateurs, you wear headgear, you have bigger gloves, you feel naked, you're pro fight. Because you walk out there, you're shirtless, no headgear, you've got these 10-ounce gloves, you can feel your knuckles through, there's cameras in your face. But sure enough, once I got to the dressing room and stayed calm and I walked through, as soon as I started to walk to the ring on the actual moment of the fight, I felt calm. I felt my legs again but for a good like hour i could barely feel my legs from nervousness ever since that fight now i'm good like i never get that feeling again so when you're doing the weigh-in and you guys are like nose to

nose and there's all the shit talking and all that kind of thing like how much of that in general and not necessarily just with you but with other you know your fellow boxers like how much of that is just performative bullshit and then behind the scenes when the cameras are off like you're cool with each other or like after the fight you're bros or is it really like what's being portrayed you never bros after the fight you always have mutual respect like i respect every single opponent that gets in the ring with me for sure i'm not really a shit talker i've never have been in press conferences and you'll see this leading up multiple press conferences interviews we do i mean obviously if it gets heated you're gonna say some stuff when you're face to face but

i usually don't say much um it's not really my style but yeah you see some fighters that kind of really amplify it to kind of whatever sell more pay-perper-view. Like Floyd and Conor McGregor when they fought. I think a lot of that was pageantry. But a lot of it is like perfect showmanship. Oh, dude. And listen, they sold the hell out of that show and they made so much money. So all for that.

But it's just not my style. So I really don't go into it that way. I don't talk a lot of shit, um, and do things just to get attention. Um, but I would say the majority of it's pretty real, man. Like you're about to go to battle with this dude and you've always got like his entourage and your entourage chirping and barking while you're, you know, and that adds to the fuel. So you just need to bring Wahlberg with you. Yeah, bring Mark and Pete. But yeah, so you always got those guys

that are chirping in the background, which kind of adds to it. Yeah, cool. Well, I wish you much luck, my friend. Thank you, sir. July 20th, I'll be tuning in. And really great to talk to you. I had a great time.

It's been an honor to be on the show. Feel good? I feel great, man. Cool. So if people want to dig on Mike, please just set the DVR or make an appointment to watch the fight, July 20th. And My Soul CBD is the website if you want to check out that. And where else people go to learn more about you? I guess Instagram, official Mike Lee, go to learn more about you? I guess, you know, Instagram, official Mike Lee, and then Facebook, Mike Lee.

And yeah, usually I'm more active on Instagram. That's where I'll show a bunch of stuff about training and leading up to the fight and all the fun stuff. Cool, man. Thank you, brother. Thank you. Come back and talk to me about it after the fight. Let's do it.

I'll bring the belt. Yeah, all right, man. That's a promise. I got you. Cool. Peace. Could do that, Mike Lee, right? Like I said, just the kind of guy that you want to get behind, that you want to root for.

Let Mike know what you thought of today's conversation. You can hit him up on Instagram at OfficialMikeLee. And don't forget to tune in to The Fight on Saturday, July 20th on Fox. If you're struggling with your diet, if you really want to master your plate once and for all, but you feel like you don't really have the skills in the kitchen, you don't have the time or the budget or the attention level that something like this requires, I can't stress enough how helpful our Plant Power Meal Planner can be. We created this digital platform to solve one very fundamental problem.

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engineering actually jason who lives in phoenix is here today in the studio he's pumping his arms right now thank you jason, for all your production help. Blake Curtis and Margo Lubin for videoing and editing the podcast. Blake is here serving up some audio duties as well. Jessica Miranda for graphics, DK for advertiser relationships, Allie Rogers for portraits,

and Chris Swan, who's here today as well, for free floating assistance on whatever's needed. Thank you, Chris. And theme music is always by Annalima. Appreciate the love, you guys. See you back here next week with a conversation with author and New York Times deputy sports editor, Matthew Futterman. It's a good one. Until then, keep fighting the good fight. Peace. Plants. Namaste. Matthew Futterman. It's a good one. Until then, keep fighting the good fight. Peace. Plants. Namaste. Thank you.