The Rich Roll Podcast - Proof Of Life: Jennifer Pastiloff On Silencing Your Inner Critic, Transforming Childhood Trauma, & The Radical Power Of Self-Acceptance

Episode Date: July 21, 2025

Jennifer Pastiloff is a bestselling author and creator of the viral "On Being Human" movement. This conversation explores her journey from childhood trauma to radical self-acceptance, her concept of silencing the "inner asshole," and why your want is enough to change everything. We discuss her father's death at eight, living in "the land of fine," and the revolutionary idea that you are your proof of life. She demonstrates how our deepest wounds become our greatest superpowers for connection. Jennifer is a rare gem. This exchange is deeply nourishing. Enjoy! Show notes + MORE Watch on YouTube Newsletter Sign-Up   Today’s Sponsors: Go Brewing: Use the code Rich Roll for 15% OFF👉https://www.gobrewing.com BetterHelp: Get 10% OFF the first month👉 https://www.betterhelp.com/richroll Lincoln Financial: Check out the NEW 4-part series "The Action Plan" 👉https://www.lincolnfinancial.com/richroll                                  IQBAR: Get 20% OFF all IQBAR products plus FREE shipping. Just text RICHROLL to sixty-four thousand. Message and data rates may apply. Shokz: Use code RICHROLL for $10 off your purchase 👉 https://www.shokz.com Mint Mobile: Get your 3-month Unlimited plan for just $15/month 👉 https://www.mintmobile.com/richroll Audience Survey: Help us improve the show by sharing what matters most to you 👉https://www.richroll.com/survey   Check out all of the amazing discounts from our Sponsors 👉 https://www.richroll.com/sponsors   Find out more about Voicing Change Media at https://www.voicingchange.media and follow us@voicingchange

Hey everybody, very quick ask. We are running an audience survey and I'd love for you to take a moment to check it out at richroll.com slash survey. Why are we doing this? Well, first and foremost, we really want to know you better and the more we know who you are and what interests you most, the better that we can align the show with what matters most to you. The kinds of guests, conversations, and themes that you find most meaningful. Second, as you know, the show would not be possible

without the amazing brand partnerships that support it, which of course means ad breaks, but I really wanna make the experience the best it can be. Better, more relevant, and frankly, less intrusive. And to do that, to do it well, we need to understand you a little bit better. So it's super simple, just two minutes tops, but it's a small, direct way you can help us keep evolving and improving the podcast. So thanks in advance.

And again, please visit richroll.com slash survey to fill out our audience survey. All right, let's do the show. I had a core belief and no one could convince me otherwise that I was a bad person. I believed in every part of me that change equal death. I lived in what I call TLOD, land of denial, where if I name it it's going to become real and if I ignore it it'll go away. My son just turned nine and he goes, mommy, nothing you do is wrong. I realized that is what I've been waiting

for my whole life. I was waiting for someone to tell me it's not your fault. Shame loss is about I don't have to tell the world all my details, but I will not hide in shame. If you are willing to stop lying to yourself, that is the ultimate game changer. Hey everybody, thanks for dropping by. Thanks for making it here. Hey, everybody. Thanks for dropping by. Thanks for making it here.

And for those of you who are here for the first time, for finally tapping in, like what took you so long? How many of you here are new to the show, just here, like on a complete flyer or maybe because you're in it, like really in it right now and looking for a little guidance, a little inspo, something a bit more uplifting than whatever your algorithm decided to foist upon you to hijack your dopamine system

and outrage you before you've even had like a minute to get yourself together so you can get through the day. Well, listen, I think it's gonna be okay. I'm not gonna solve your problems here today, but I think you made the right choice because what I do here, or at least what I try to do here is I try to carve out a space away from all the lunacy and provide you with something a little bit more meaningful

than perhaps what you're used to, because I'm not really interested in gaming the internet to grab your attention, which seems to be the game that everyone who puts anything up on the internet right now is playing. I'm actually interested in being helpful, not in like a reductive, let me tell you what you need to do,

sort out your life kind of way, but in a way that hopefully is a little more real, a little more honest, at least that's my aim in all of this. And really always has been since I started this thing more than 13 years ago, which I'm really trying to hold on to amidst incentives that are out there

that I think have, I think it's fair to say has sort of deranged the minds of a lot of podcasters out there in this space to the point where the only consideration is analytics. But when all you care about is how to farm attention, how to grab eyes and ears, how to grow, that there's a cost to that, in my opinion, which is that it sacrifices substance

and it gets in the way of what we're even doing here. Why I'm even doing this thing in the first place if that why was even meaningful to begin with. So anyway, I guess what I'm trying to say is that I'm trying to hold on to that why, which is why I'm kind of back to doing these longer intros because I don't care about playing the stupid game of trying to trick you or manipulate you

into sticking around with a bunch of bullshit bells and whistles. I have to believe that you're here for a reason. And I'm interested in honoring that because I don't take your attention for granted. And I would much prefer to honor it by creating something by providing you with something that is asking something of you,

something that will challenge you, something that is asking something of you, something that will challenge you, something real, at least for one of you out there so that you can leave this experience, maybe asking a few questions of yourself and hopefully departing the experience a little bit better for having invested time in what I've invested in and my team has invested in on your behalf. So I realized that what I just said might come off to you

as sort of holier than now, that is not my intention because I'm definitely not a know-it-all. But I do know that there is value in aspiring to be a signal amidst the noise, a signal that is authentic, that's earnest, that's optimistic, because I don't know about you, but right now, from my perspective, there is a shitload of high volume noise out there.

Noise that seems to be penetrating all of us with a frequency that just seems to be getting increasingly more cynical and more vitriolic. And what I think we need more of, what I need more of is authenticity, earnestness, a signal that feels real because it is real. So yeah, that was quite a roundabout journey. I just took you on there, but this is where my head's at.

This is where my focus lands. This is where my intention rests. So if you are new, this is the deal. This is what my head's at. This is where my focus lands. This is where my intention rests. So if you are new, this is the deal. This is what I'm about. This is what this show is about. And so welcome. Hopefully you get what you need here. And if not, that's cool too.

I got a couple more things I would very much like to mention before we dig into this one, but first. We're brought to you today by the wonderful folks at Go Brewing. Let me tell you a story. A few years ago, this guy, Joe Chura, rings me up out of the blue and he asked if I'll fly out to Illinois and speak at this event that he was hosting called GO, which ended up being this really incredible weekend oriented around taking inspired action. Joe and I hit it off, but that was kind of that.

And it wasn't until I ran into him a couple of years ago at Jesse Itzler's Running Man event that I realized that he had taken inspired action himself by creating this new enterprise that was also called GO, GO Brewing in fact, which from Go has grown into what it is today. One of the most exciting revolutions in craft brewing. One of the many things that makes Go Brewing extraordinary is that they don't outsource like most companies.

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alongside Joe. So get on board by getting with Go by going to gobrewing.com where you're going to use the code richroll for 15% off your first purchase. Go. This show is sponsored by BetterHelp. And today I want to help you better by talking about workplace stress, which is something that is real and also something that's getting worse.

In fact, 61% of people globally are dealing with higher than normal stress levels, which when you understand the very real connection between chronically elevated stress levels and chronic lifestyle disease is concerning. While we can't walk away from our jobs this summer, we can change our relationship with what we do because while a vacation is great,

that is not a long-term solution. A long-term solution requires we take steps towards reducing the negative emotions that we associate with our occupation. And those steps include learning how to navigate daily challenges, set boundaries, develop coping skills, all of which are very difficult. I say this from personal experience to do alone,

which is where therapy comes in. I'm a huge advocate for therapy, I have been for years. And this is something that really isn't just for crisis moments, It's mental maintenance, learning tools to handle whatever the workday throws at you. And BetterHelp really has done a great job of making this accessible. Over 30,000 therapists or 5 million people worldwide, 4.9 out of 5 stars from 1.7 million reviews. As the largest online therapy provider in the world,

BetterHelp offers access to a diverse range of mental health professionals with various areas of expertise. Unwind from work with BetterHelp. All of you can get 10% off your first month at betterhelp.com slash richroll. That's betterhelp, H-E-L-P dot com slash rich roll. Okay, Jen Pasteloff is here today.

And what do I wanna say about her? Well, Jen is unique. I will say that. She is a pistol with a firecracker of a story, which she tells today with a sort of trademark acerbic humor, but it's also an extremely relatable story. Maybe not the part about losing her hearing. Jen is deaf, she reads lips,

but definitely the parts about marriage, separation, parenting, addiction, sobriety, the interior experience that she shares of feeling lost, of feeling undeserving of good things. And this journey that she went on that she is still on to find her voice and claim her life. All of which and more we get into today and which she eloquently elaborates on

in her new takeaway-laden memoir called, Proof of Life. You can find Jen on Substack at Jen Pasteloff, Jen with one N. And you can find her right here, right now. So let's do it. You did a really beautiful job with this book, Proof of Life. I did. Yeah, it's a wonderful, wonderful read.

Yeah, so I'm excited for people to discover it. It's quite incisive at times and celebratory at others, but it's really like, when I think about your story and the way you tell it in this book, it is a hero's journey in many ways, like from the dark underbelly, the insipidness of shame induced by childhood trauma and experiences all the way to home,

like home to yourself, a home that you have custom designed bespoke to you that you can now live in comfortably. You know, it's on some level of recovery memoir, but it's really about this journey towards figuring out who you are so that you can live more authentically and comfortably in your own skin.

I mean, it's really not lost on me that you said the recovery memoir. What's really funny is a couple of years ago, my editor who did the same book as my first book on being human, and no one knew how much I drank, I was covert and functioning, but she was like, maybe you're right. And she gave the example of lovely Holly Whitaker

quit like a woman. And I was like, okay, are you what? Me? Like the fact that I literally was probably drinking tequila as she sent it. And so the irony of like, it ended up being that. But at the 11th hour, I added stuff in because I only have been sober for seven and a half months. So I'm talking like they were mad at me.

They're like, Jen, the book is locked. And I felt like such a fraud because in 2020, you know, the doctor told me, I went to the doctor, I had gastritis and the doctor said, you have to stop drinking. And I of course thought of my father,, was told that apparently about drugs and he didn't. And I did stop for a little while and I talked about that and everything. But I felt so dishonest because again, I was still drinking. And so it's really important to me to get it in there.

And I didn't get into it as much as I would have liked to, and that doesn't matter. But I wanted to name it. And I said in my Ted Talk, there's such a power in naming a thing and such a grace at allowing ourselves not to be defined in that naming. So it was important to me for shame loss and for my own accountability and for, and because I was so proud of myself.

It's littered with so many themes of recovery from denial, accountability, of course, rigorous self honesty, all of these things that we have to grapple with in order to overcome this predisposition to substances and behavior. But it's what's beneath that, not just just abstinence, but like emotional sobriety. How do you arrive in a place

where you're comfortable in your own skin? You're happy with your life, like you love yourself. And this is still a struggle for me in many ways, self-acceptance, self-love, like these are difficult concepts for me. And that's really the heart of this, like the harsh inner asshole that you talk about, that on some level, like I just assume everyone has it.

It's always news to me when I find out there are people that don't have like a harsh- I think little kids. And I'm always curious, my son just turned nine and I'm always curious, there's a point, right? Where it starts to happen because I think little kids don't necessarily,

I think, I don't remember. I think that's probably right. But once they get introduced into the classroom or group dynamics and peers and judgment and clicks and all of that stuff, I'm sure that stuff starts to take root, right? You are the first hearing impaired person that we've had on the podcast.

Wow. So you have that distinction. I'm curious around your relationship with that. Losing your hearing and then kind of being forced to understand what's going on, to listen without your ears. Oh, how presumptuous. You think I understand what's going on, to listen without your ears. Oh, how presumptuous, you think I understand what's going on? I don't know.

Well, I would imagine that it creates like a hypersensitivity with your other senses. Well, I say I'm a witch and I'm like half joking, but I was just on the phone with a friend of mine who made this hat. And he said something and I said, oh, right away I knew, and I said there was a bit of a question at the end and he goes, you're hearing. I said, oh no, it's not my hearing.

First of all, I can intonation, it's speech clarification. So without my hearing aids, totally nothing deaf, which is pretty terrifying because it's fairly recent, except my tinnitus, that's always there. But with my hearing aids, speech clarification, so I could hear intonation and so I picked up on something, but also, yes, we all have intuition. But, and as I've gotten older, I've really embraced it. Losing my hearing, I have learned to listen another way. So I pick up on things, I understand things that blows people's minds.

And a lot of it was initially probably survival. And then I've embraced it more. So it's like, wait a minute, but we all have intuition. I've just kind of been forced to rely on it more, if that makes sense. How old are you when that began? It's interesting you ask, I don't know, because again, denial.

So I do know when I really started noticing it was in my early 20s when I was in acting school. But then I would look back, I'm like, whoa, that's why I always sat in the front. That's why everyone, teachers, oh, Jen doesn't pay attention. It all started, you know, I know I had chronic ear infections. So I think I always said hearing loss, not like it is now, but I must've always had tinnitus because it hit me, I don't know, maybe 15 years ago, when I was little and I would draw or concentrate or write,

I would make a noise that sounds like some of you are gonna be too young, but emergency broadcast system, like a droning and people would make fun of me, like, why do you make that noise? And so I just locked it back in me and that was it. And I don't know, 15 years ago, something, it hit me. Oh my God, I've always had tinnitus. So I was mimicking the sound in my head

and it made my heart hurt because like, I was ashamed. You know, I don't know why I make that noise and I shut up, But it progressively got worse and I was, I lived in what I call TLOD, land of denial, where if I name it, it's going to become real. And if I ignore it, it'll go away. Because that never works, but I like to, you know, pretend. So there's that, I didn't want to name it. And also I had a core belief

and no one could convince me otherwise that I was a bad person. And so I thought, whatever, I'm broken. I'm not broken. I know that now, but you know, so there's all these things and I was just ashamed and I was also terrified that if I named it, it would become more real. Well, it's reasonable that you would be terrified like it is terrifying. Absolutely.

But the part that is the mind fuck is, oh, therefore, if I don't say it out loud, it won't be real and then it won't exist. Oh, therefore if I don't say it out loud, it won't be real and then it won't exist. And I lived my life most of my life until very recently like that. On all accounts. On all accounts because,

and I say this without any exaggeration, I believed in every part of me that change equal death. In my marriage, I just never named it. I never said it out loud and therefore it didn't exist, my unhappiness. Yeah, it doesn't exist until it does. And then you have to reckon with it. And once I named it, then, wow, that was all I saw.

And also that's why I said the thing about shame and about saying I'm an addict, which even now I said it and I was like, wait, take it back. But I hate labels, but the naming it and then going, but I don't, I'm not defined by that. You know, it, it, it's like with shame when shame loss is about, I don't, I don't owe anyone. I don't have to tell the world all my details, but I will not hide in shame. And so, I don't owe anyone, I don't have to tell the world all my details, but I will not hide in shame. And so, you know, when we name a thing, at least for me, A, it becomes less scary,

quite the opposite than what I thought, and it just holds less power. Shame can't survive the light. Yeah, I know, Brene, like we're besties. Brene talks about that survive the light. Yeah, I know Brene talks, Brene like we're besties. Brene talks about that all the time. You mentioned that you had this sense that you were inherently broken or bad. So I wanna go back to the inciting incident for that,

which was around the death of your father. Can you just kind of paint the picture of your life leading up to that, what happened and kind of what ensued as a result of that experience? Yeah, South Jersey, Pensac and my dad by far was the funniest person to this day. People will be like, Mel Pasloff was the funniest person I ever met.

He died in 83. My dad was funny and he was my person. And it was dysfunctional because they both parentified me. I mean, my parents, I came out of the womb like 40. It was really weird, but I did. And they treated me that way. And my dad, you know, God bless him. And also what an asshole.

But like, I remember he had a bell. I remember that to be like, watch, I'm gonna ring the bell. Your mom will come. So it was like me and my dad against my mom. But my dad was so funny. We were, he was my person. My dad smoked four packs of cigarettes a day, cool. So if you can imagine that, that's 80 cigarettes.

So he apparently like, he'd have one and the other one was lit and this one was still in his mouth. And so, I flushed his cigarettes down the toilet and I was giggling, I thought was funny. And you know, it's funny as I'm telling it, I've had this thought a lot, which is, do I even remember anymore or have I just told it a lot, you know, and doesn't matter? But so he says, Jennifer, have you seen my cigarettes? And I said, no, he knew I was lying. And I flushed him down the toilet and he said,

you're being bad and making me not feel good. And I said, you always break your promises. I hate you. And I walked out. And I knew, my sister and I, we went, go in the room, go in your bedroom. And I heard noise and ambulance and I waited up all night, but I knew and the next morning I came in the kitchen and my mom like was a health food nut.

That's what they called them back then, like wheat germ. We couldn't have donuts and rich. I've used this image so many times, but I walked in the kitchen and of course I'm in my mind, I'm exaggerating, but wall to wall Dunkin' Donut boxes. And I knew. So I have a line where I say donuts equal death. I knew right that, I mean, that's it.

And so my aunt, my godmother aunt, you know, it's Jersey, Philly, we're all like that. They wanted me to sit down, I wouldn't. And they said, your dad died. And I said, I know. I don't care. And I locked my jaw, which I'm only now, unclenching broken teeth, truly. I locked my jaw, which I'm only now unclenching broken teeth, truly. I lock my jaw, I walked out the door, I walked around the block and I kept walking and I chanted, be strong, be strong, be strong, be strong.

I chanted that to the point I didn't have to chant it after a while. It just became, which is why I laughed that when you said emotional sobriety, because I thought it was dead inside. I didn't, I needed the opposite of that, but I am strong. And I knew that he said, I was being bad. I heard you are bad. I knew inarguably that it was my fault

because I was bad that I killed him. And I deserve it to be punished for that. And that your last words to him were, I hate you. I hate you. That's heavy. And so my fucking rich role, so I can only started being able to cry three years ago, which is pretty wild,

because I'm far away from eight years old and it startled me. The irony is I lead all these workshops and I'm really good at what I do, holding space, you know, as yoga people say. This is my favorite part of your story. Cause you're like off doing all these things. Because it's so classic.

It's so human, right? I'm like this master of like getting people and feeling and being vulnerable and me. And I could, I wasn't faking it for them, but I like, I couldn't emote, which feels like you're constipated, truly. It doesn't feel good. But like, I really was like, something's wrong with me. I'm dead inside.

So I'm out there like doing all this stuff and I could not feel. So I would purposely, this is us, would watch and that would have the dad thing, but because it would make me cry and I'd be like, okay, I'm not dead in terms of endearment because the scene with the little boy, because that was mean, he is not, I like, you know, but like with my, I couldn't access anything with me, you know, everything was that I don't care which isn't true

But for so long it was my default and it was like a physiological response, you know And so summer of 2022 July actually and I remember where I was in London with my friend Laura Donnelly and I was telling a story and I got emotional and I started to cry and she knew and we both and then next thing, you know and in my marriage and I started to cry and she knew and we both and then next thing you know, and in my marriage and I fell in love and, but that is a default. I would be lying if I said that when I'm feeling out of alignment and my inner asshole's raging

that immediately rages up, you're a bad person. Well, it was a defense mechanism that is such a painful event and, you know, idea to, you know, kind of believe in that you're inherently bad and your last words, you know, were unloving to your father. Like for a small child, of course, you're gonna repress that and push it away

and push it down and push it down. And what else gets pushed down with that? Like pretty much everything else, right? But energy never dies, that's the big joke. to repress that and push it away and push it down and push it down. And what else gets pushed down with that? Like pretty much everything else, right? But energy never dies. This is the only way. That's the big joke. Yeah, of course it's gonna come out at some point. And it's probably going to be in the context

of some chaos that you unconsciously reaped on your life in order for it to breathe air so you can finally contend with it. But obviously that doesn't happen for many, many years. Like you have to go through life, like holding everything at bay and pushing everything down. But it's not even conscious because it becomes so- Of course, no, of course it's not conscious.

And when you're eight, you're not done being formed, right? It's not your fault, you know? Oh, Rick, really? But here's the idea I wanna get to, which is- But you're gonna make me cry. And I still have this, it's such a weird response. And it's like, it's not on purpose. I have this thing that happens where I start to fight it

where, and I'm like clenching and my mind starts to go, it's like, I have to go, okay, relax, relax. Cause it's still, it's so foreign. And I guess when I was eight, I thought if I let myself feel, I will die from grief. And so like even now, when I start to feel something like I'm starting to get a migraine cause I'm fighting it instead of just like allowing it,

but also I'm grateful because feeling emotionally constipated or not being able to emote is an awful feeling. Is it true that it wasn't until your son was eight that you were able to find compassion for your eight-year-old self in that situation? And I wanna say it out loud because that's what shame loss is, the refusal to hide in shame.

There's a part of me that was like, so when I was like 11 and people would say, I'm so sorry about your dad, I would go, it doesn't matter. It was a long time ago now. Like, also grief has no expiration date. I never metabolized. I never dealt with my dad's death. And because I was so wise and mature and adult-like, people treated me that way. So there was like an embarrassment of like, how can I be,

how can my son just turn nine in May? How can it only be now I'm dealing with this stuff? What is wrong with me? And then the good news is that only lasts a couple minutes before I go, nothing is wrong with me and there's no timeline and it's never too late. But I could never have known that I would see my son and I almost had to look away sometimes and that was me. I was just a little kid and I didn't think I was going to have kids. And I would look at him and I would get so, wow, and what a gift. I've never seen myself with tenderness or softness ever until six months ago, a year. Wow.

When were you a waitress at Newsroom Cafe? Cause that place- Every night in my nightmare still, or my dreams. Well, I started there when I was 21 and I stopped when I was 34. I think I stopped working there maybe 2009. Okay, yeah. That was in the later stages of that place.

Like that- No, no, no. Rich, I worked there like a year after it opened. Oh, you did? I worked there five days a week for 14 years. Were you there in 1998? Yes. So that restaurant is very important in my life. Oh, for fuck's sake.

Now I have the chills. Because it was really the beginning of my sobriety journey. Like I- Your sobriety journey? I was sort of forced into AA initially by the nudge of a judge. I'm sure I wait, were you part of the Sunday night crew?

I was, but my mainstay was going to the log cabin every morning. Yeah. And of course the newsroom cafe is just down the block from there. So I would eat breakfast there every morning, but hold on a second. Let me finish this. Look at me with my hair up.

It was so long ago and my mind was a blur at that time, but I would eat there after the meeting regularly multiple times a week. This is back in 1998. But this was a period in which I was begrudgingly going to AA because I'd gotten into trouble with the law and I had to get the court card signed and all of that. And so I was constantly relapsing

and going out and coming back. And there was one morning in particular that I showed up at the meeting, went to the newsroom afterwards and was in a really dark place because I just relapsed again and I just didn't know what to do. And I was the guy who would sit in the back

and not talk to anyone. Outside. And a guy came up to me, a guy who will remain unnamed because I was eating breakfast alone. And he came up and he said, hey, why don't you come over with us? And he brought me into a group of people. And that guy would go on to become my sponsor

and really saved my life and changed my relationship with recovery. And that was the beginning of taking it seriously and truly getting sober. And that simple encounter from that one human being like shifted the trajectory of my life in a very meaningful way. And it all went down at the newsroom cafe

where you were working and we're probably there that morning. Align, align. Yeah. First of all, thank you. Thank you for sharing that. And I talk about that all the time because I do it and I watch people how much we underestimate ourselves in, you know, oh, I'm not rich role, so I don't make a difference.

And it's like, just you have no idea the kind of difference you can alter the course of someone's life. And I thought about that at the restaurant a lot. Like, it was an ecstasy to cyanide. Like sometimes I put my hand on someone's shoulder, you never know, like their kid's dying, whatever. And the way that we can have that power and just to know, and that's just by being us, but that you shared that for many reasons,

one, the synchronicity, and also because I'm new in my sober journey, but I believe that we find our people. And I just think that's so incredible, that connection, because it could have been anywhere, but that restaurant that I worked at for 14 years. Yeah, it was sort of the peach pit of early morning Los Angeles sobriety

and it no longer exists anymore. Like it's gone now. Do you know what it's called now, Rich Roll? No. The Henry. I see. Life is, life is, you know. What do you make of that?

Jen, pass it off. I make of that, look, sense of humor is the most important thing to me,? I make of that, look, sense of humor is the most important thing to me, followed by breath. Okay, fine, breath's more important, but I find life's got a sense of humor. Yeah. You know?

And things are really dark and awful right now, especially. And so I constantly look for the funny and the little wink. And I just, I don't know. I like to be like, it's just a little wink. My partner's name is Henry. So. For those that don't know, Henry Zerny, who plays Kittredge in the Mission Impossible movies.

And as we were talking before the podcast is truly the center of gravitas of that movie and the voice that you hear in every one of the trailers and commercials. Your mission. And he's just, he's my everything. And I'm very, very grateful. And I'm so grateful that you not only knew who he was,

but I love people who are willing to express their admiration or love or gratitude. I think it's such a gorgeous quality. The fact that you shared what you shared is, it really touched me. What if we've all been thinking about our future wrong? What if there is no finish line? What if there's only a through line? Well, that's the idea behind a special project I've been working on with Lincoln Financial,

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Okay, so I wanna understand this because it's very confrontational to me. Rich, let's be clear. My inner asshole says, Jennifer, everything you do is wrong. I was late today. I'm more familiar with that voice. No shit, we all are.

That is why when I was late today. I'm more familiar with that voice. No shit, we all are. That is why when I was painting as someone who doesn't know how to paint and became a painter as one does, and I was ruminating, do not ruminate people, especially before bed on feeling guilty because of all the times I wasn't present, I was newly sober and I was feeling guilty because of all the times I wasn't present, you know, I was newly sober and I was just like, oh my God, oh my God, I'm never, you know, with my son and all these

things and he walks in, I swear to God, like the kid is like a Buddha and he hands me two flowers and he says, for the best mommy in the world. And then he looks me in the eye, he's eight at the time, and he grabs my shoulders and he goes, mommy, nothing you do is wrong. What? I mean, I like laugh, cried, snotted. I was like, it's those moments where if you don't believe in magic or whatever, but are you kidding me?

And the way he said it and what? And trust me, I'm very careful. I don't say, you know. So I realized that is what I've been waiting for my whole life. And even with drinking and sobriety, I wanted someone to make me stop. And that was never going to happen. I wanted someone to say it wasn't your fault and you just did. I wanted someone to make me stop hating myself, to tell me nothing I do is wrong.

And if I said it to myself, which I do a lot, nothing you do is wrong, I'd be like, oh, shut the fuck up. But I would never say that to my eight year old son, which is why I titled my Ted talk that which is why it's a gift. And I, and I said to you to anyone, so imagine that that and of course, I'm not, please, I'm not talking about nothing you do is wrong, barring you're not intentionally hurting yourself or anyone else. So don't give me any of that like, well, what about, I'm talking like anything besides that,

besides intentionally hurting another. I would never look at my son and go, you dirty liar. You're full of shit, you know? It's more about the tenor of the internal voice. Like, is it constantly ripping you a new one? Or is it nurturing you? Because obviously, you know, denial is part of trying to tell yourself

that what you're doing isn't wrong. You know, like you're trying to like push that away and you have to be accountable for your past actions. That's not what I'm talking about. And again, you hit the nail on the head. It's about the tenor of the inner voice. And it's about, you know, this idea. I like rituals.

I start the day with something I call a body prayer only because it's generated from my own body. Call it whatever you want. It's an invocation. And I try to do it before I look at my phone, often fail, before the world comes at me and I begin it with may I remember because it's what I know but I've forgotten and may I remember to have a sense of humor today about myself, whatever. But let's say I go through the day and I don't, I realized the missing link was letting myself off the hook.

And so it's really about letting yourself off the hook. Now, sometimes we have to be on the hook and then knowing we can begin again. So for example, like with our sobriety things and things like that, it's like, okay, I can't change what happened. I can change the story I have around it that like I was a monster, I was a bad person, but I can't change what happened, but move it. Now what? And also what you're talking about, that justification,

like that's not what I'm talking about either. That's where you're being, where you're immobilized in a way and like you're looking for justification. My goal is to stop lying to myself. So it's not that it's to wear kid gloves with ourselves. You have a long history of lying to yourself. Doesn't everyone? No, maybe not.

I don't know. I certainly do. I don't know. I don't know what goes on in other people's minds. Agreed. I know it goes in and mine and I can go to AA meetings and I realize that there are other people that think like me. All I know is what it's like to allow that inner asshole to run wild and free and wreak havoc on my mind and my life.

What has been your path or your way to figuring out how to change that voice. Is it about muting it? Is it about acknowledging it? Is it about overcoming it? I love that you asked that. And I believe in daily practices. And then I went and changed it at the last minute

cause I'm like, I can't lie, daily-ish practices because I am not the best at consistency and so daily-ish, but it changes what works. And so I like to think of something that I'm the headmaster of the school called the school of whatever works. Again, borrowing you're not intentionally hurting yourself or anyone else. And it's always just for today. And I know you're very familiar with this, you know, AA, it's just, I can only say today. So for today, what works?

Well, okay, one like really simple thing. I know that intentionality is really important to me. So if I pick up my phone to like look at the time and then three hours later, I'm still scrolling, that's not intentional. And then I feel terrible because I'm comparing myself to these other people who are not eating Trader Joe's beans out of a can and they're, you know, so, okay, let me sleep with my phone in the other room. So it's not the last and the first thing I do. Painting has become my medicine. That is the one thing, it feels weird to admit, the one thing where I don't talk shit to myself.

Interassol is just not there. And guess what? I'm taking it. I keep going because I'm like, I found it's medicine and I love it. And maybe we all find that, right? But I think it changes every day. I got you people, people who see me like you, when I said, oh, I feel so seen, as opposed to like a relationship I had that for two years

that validated that I sucked really. So it changes what works every day. And it's about discovering and being willing to discover, well, what works in not letting this voice be the boss of me? What are you pondering right now? I'm seeing all the- I'm trying to think of, you know, my version of that. Like what works to quiet or quell that voice?

Oh, I mean, I listen to you all the time. I'm not gonna tell you what's in your mind, but it's like- I don't know. But you're so smart. Like I bet your brain gets in your way a lot. I appreciate that, but that gets in the way. You know, that's a problem. Did you hear me? I said, you're so smart. Like I bet your brain gets in your way a lot. But that gets in the way, you know, that's a problem. Did you hear me? I said, you're so smart.

Your brain gets in the way a lot. And you said it at the same time, Jinx. I could tell. Because I wanna outthink it. And that's not really the best strategy. Well, for me, I'm less concerned, me personally with the why or the because, like my brain, I don't know why, I'm less concerned me personally with the why or the because like my brain,

I don't know why, I just know it does. So what I'm more concerned with, well, now what? Because I'm more interested in being embodied rather than, but anyway, all that to say is you're very smart. Thank you. You're welcome. I love that you write about this idea of living in the land of fine, right? Everything's fine.

Fine. And that's related to the inner asshole and to the denial and the sense that you're unworthy because you're basically pursuing life from a place of fear. And as a result, your life is sort of small and you're trying to control everything. But it didn't look that way on paper, on Instagram.

Right. Yeah. Whatever it looks like to the external world, the interior experience is I'm suffering, but I'm too afraid to make a change. And it's easier to just stay where I'm at. Like everything is quote unquote fine. And that's sort of a life of quiet desperation. Talk about denial.

Like, you know, like I thought it was dead inside. I also thought I had no sex drive. I thought, you know, needs once. It wasn't even like I'm suffering. I just disconnect from your body long enough or your feelings long enough. You know, I wrote a poem about the history of my education and it was like, I learned that to withstand one thing, you must withstand everything. So, you know, I ignored how anything felt until it didn't.

So then I didn't register. Do you know what I'm saying? And that is even sadder to me. You know, if you stay at a surface level, because if you go deeper, at least for me, then you have to go, well, now what? That's why I never said out loud anything about my drinking. So I didn't have to do anything.

But I didn't acknowledge I was suffering. Everyone knew. I mean, but you know, I convinced myself again. So what happened? What did it take for you to blow up your life, as you say? And this idea that like blowing up your life, there's a fine line between destruction and expansion.

I love that you caught that. That was another thing I added at the last minute because it was an epiphany where, you know, some people were like, oh my God, you know, you blew up your life, you destroyed it, you wrecked it or my inner asshole. And it dawned on me, wait a minute, I expanded it, but it can feel like the same thing.

That epiphany was so comforting, not immediately, because that's bypassing, right? Oh, I'm expanding. It's like, oh, feel it first, right? There's part of me that feels bad. I love my ex. I do, and we have this wacky living situation that is weird, it's our weird.

You're still in that? I'm still in it. So you're still living with your ex husband? Yeah, wow. You know, it's like, I'm always like, I'm not gonna hide in shame. And then I say things and I go, wow, I really went there. But I'm working on not denying my impulses. And I don't have an impulse to drink. I do think I do, but then I sit with what is it

that I really want, if that makes sense. I think it does too. But I want to do my best to not throw my ex under the bus because he is lovely. And there was things I wasn't going to say and ended up saying in the book because it's what was so, and it would be a disservice if I didn't. So we were like ships in the night, like right now we're like roommates and we were always like that. And in fact, my son even he's thriving and he looks at us and we're better now. But in terms of like how we cohabitate, we cohabitate ish.

But I knew how he thought and well, not how he thought but like sort of his way of being as it were, even though he didn't necessarily say it out loud. And so we were in London two days before I had met Henry, not romantic in any way, shape or form, like at all. But we had the most amazing conversation. And I came home and posted about it on Instagram and I was like, oh my God, you guys, my ex and I, and it wasn't romantic, I was with my husband.

And we met this guy and we had the most amazing conversation about beauty hunting. You know that connection is my everything. And I said, and he lives in LA. I go, you're gonna see us and you're gonna think they've been friends forever, totally unrelated. So my friend Holt McAleney, who's also in- Oh, I love that guy.

Oh my God, he's gonna- Oh, hi, Holt. Like all time, all times that guy, character actor. He's, well, he's a star right now of the waterfront on Netflix and he's so good. Anyway, Holt is a friend of 30 years. And so it's a funny story because Holt had invited us to this party

but we weren't really invited. He was like, you know, I said, I want you to see Charlie. He was, well, stop by. But basically it's a barbecue for the cast and crew of Mission Impossible that I'm filming here in London. And basically it was like, so you leave before it starts cause it, you know, he didn't, it wasn't for us and it's not a kid thing.

Well, I had started painting and I was painting and lo and behold, we were running late. And my ex was like, let's not go cause we're not really invited and it's late. I was like, you know what, let's go. It'll be an hour in the Uber. Yeah, but let's go. I just had a feeling.

And I said, if it's awkward, we'll leave. Will we get there an hour later? And Charlie runs in and runs off. And I was like, oh shit. And then the first person I see, I don't get starstruck, you know, I will if like, I don't know, Michelle Obama or, you know, Anne Lamont, but the first person I see is Angela Bassett. And I go, we're staying. I love her. I love you, Angela. The first person I see is Angela Bassett and I go, we're staying.

I love her. I love you, Angela. And it ended up being the most amazing night and there was a magician there. Yes, Holt had a magician. Okay. So there's all these weird factors and Henry and I had this amazing conversation and I posted about it. End of story.

End of story. Two days later, unrelated to that, still in London, we went to see a play, my husband, my son, my mother-in-law, and that afternoon was the day I cried at the restaurant, which was also very bizarre for the first time. And after the play, I said to my ex that, it makes me sad that Charlie, you know,

never sees us like laughing or connected or kissing. And I forget all the things I said. He was like in the couch and our Airbnb. I was in the kitchen and I was sick, but I was pouring a glass of wine because of course I was. And I said that, And I said that, it just makes me sad. And he looked at me and he goes, that's life. And that was the crucible. I slammed down the glass of wine and there was this moment and I knew, I knew, I knew, wow. This is like, I swear Eminem came in.

It was like, you know, you got one shot. I was like, wait a minute, because the way I thought, it was like, you know, you got one shot. I was like, wait a minute, because the way I thought of it was like, you know, I can be in denial and pretend that I don't, first of all, I don't, I don't believe that in the core of me, that's life. But I was living as if. Now I can pretend I don't know that he was, but once he named it out loud, I'm going to look away. And so for me, that was a crucible and a higher power. My dead father, I don't know, but I had no idea what was going to come out of my mouth because I had never said it. I said,

I'm not happy. I think we should get a separation. And that was it for me. And then we came back and, you know, and it took many months because it wasn't, he didn't think I was, you know, but once I named it, that's all I saw. Like it was, and it sounds so stupid. Like, but this has been here the whole time. Why am I just seeing it now? But I think it's just what we do. And, but once I named it and honestly, it felt like I had no control over what came out of my mouth. I know that I did, but it came from,

I feel I had no choice. Like it- A sense of survival or a vote for yourself or just an inner belief that there has to be something more. Like I don't have to suffer silently or in this like low grade, you know, kind of sense of life being less than you knew innately it could be.

I wanna be careful. I'm very careful because I love my ex and I wanna be careful not to say more because that suggests less than it could be. I want to be careful. I'm very careful because I love my ex and I want to be careful not to say more because that suggests less than it's different, not more, not more, different. And that's okay. We find our people and it's true. We do so well now and I think we just, bless, we had this beautiful child, but we just like, you know, what I wanted, and I would never, I didn't even acknowledge,

was like, intimacy scared me more than anything, but that's what I really, and that scared me, of course, because if I let that in, they would drop that or leave. But also it was a line, right? It was like, wait a minute, this thing I say every day to myself and I do, may I have the courage to be who I say I am. That's what it was. It was a moment where I go, where I went, you are so full of shit.

If you're going to be who you say you are, because I don't buy into that's life. And had I gone, you're right, then who am I being? But also survival rich because my friend, Krista Paravani texted me once and she said a couple of years ago, how did you get the courage to change everything in your life? And I have a habit of like picking up other people's drinks. And so I literally was like, I picked up someone else's phone. That is not for me because I don't change. That would make me die.

And, but then I was like, wait a minute, but I didn't answer her. And I went with Henry to a storage unit where he was storing his stuff in the interim of buying a house. And because he's a total nerd and he builds things, he insisted on building a shelving unit. And it was January at four o'clock, the sun goes down at five, there was no electricity in the unit.

So he had to build it before the sun went down and I was sitting there watching him and it hit me like a ton of bricks. I went, I know how I did it. I had to before I ran out of light. This episode is sponsored by Shocks. So some of you guys know that I'm recovering from spinal surgery right now.

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and your three month unlimited wireless plan for just 15 bucks a month at mintmobile.com slash richroll. That's mintmobile.com slash richroll. Upfront payment of $45 required, equivalent to $15 a month. But when I hear that story, to me it sounds like this was the first time that you were willing to rip the band-aid off 100%. And look at something that you had refused to look at

for a long time. And once you do that, then suddenly, you know, everything else kind of starts to, the dam's gonna burst, right? And you're gonna have to look at all kinds of stuff. You could not be more accurate. You, I mean, I didn't recognize myself. That's why it felt like, that's why I relied on my,

I got you people so much because, I mean, it's very much like becoming newly sober because suddenly everything looked different. Nothing was, you know, the way I talked about it, it was like, everything was tilted. It's like, no, the way I talked about it, it was like everything was tilted. It's like, no, what I had been tilting. Exactly. I ripped the band-aid off and all the things I was like pretending not to see, or I really didn't because of so many years of the way I'd been programmed myself. I mean, and it was terrifying. I felt like

I had no solid ground beneath me. I was so afraid. My favorite words are, it's gonna be okay. So I just would ask my, I would just ask my friends to text me that, to remind me that. But it's a different kind of fear. There's a certain kind of fear that kept you in that place. The new kind of fear is what's gonna happen

now that I have to look at it and change. And I think when the first fear becomes more than the second, that's when you actually start to take action on it. The first fear is this, it's being the boss of me. It's calling the shots, it's keeping me immobilized, lying to myself, all the things. The second fear is I'm afraid and I'm doing it anyway.

I'm acknowledging it. And not only that, I'm asking for help. So what did you do? Like on a practical level? I literally would ask for help. I'd ask even if it meant just sit and spend time with me, you know? A lot of it was surrounding myself with people who made me feel held and safe. Safe is like my big, big thing. Making art, practical because I wasn't in my head.

Because my art is all about freedom because I don't know what I'm doing and the gift in that, you know, getting really present with my son. You know, I don't think I know, I didn't experience joy until he was born. I have no pictures of myself as a child smiling. So there were things I would do that would, all right, it's there,

but I'm not gonna let it be the boss of me, except on the days that I did. So there's these competing things that are happening. Suddenly you're feeling empowered to move your life in a different direction. Like, you know, the situation you're in isn't- I did not feel empowered by the way, I do now. So I wanna understand this because there's this awareness.

Okay, I think I need something different. I think I want something different. It's scary, but what's scarier is staying here. But at the same time, you have the inner asshole that is affirming this looping message that you're undeserving of love and good things and how dare you. I'm a monster.

And like, who do you think you are? And not for nothing, that ship has sailed, it's too late. So, how are you reckoning with that at that time? Yeah, so, I have to tell you, I did not feel empowered. My old, I am a bad person, I'm a monster. I ruin everything, I kill everything. person, I'm a monster. I ruin everything, I kill everything. That came back with a vengeance. And so I was so, so terrified.

That is why I relied so much on my people and whatever I found that worked. My people painting, you know, I was so, so afraid because that voice was so loud, you know, that I thought was like tamed that literally a monster. And my friend, Mimi Feldman, and I realized they cut it from the book, but she said something to me at my Italy retreat. She said, I was like, remind me I'm not a monster. I mean, I was, thank God my friends weren't annoyed or if they were, they didn't tell me because

I was so afraid and I really needed a hand to hold until where I am now. I said, I'm a monster. And she looked, she said, you know, Jen, I'm going to butcher what she said verbatim. She said, in this situation regarding my ex and I, someone's going to be the monster. So if you're going to be a monster, be the best monster you can be. And I swear it was like, okay. And what I had to do was find any way I could to remind myself that I was not a bad person, that I did not destroy everything,

that I didn't ruin everything. And first of all, like the level of narcissism, but it's like an eight year old, right? Of like, I ruined everything. And it's, but it's that eight year old me. But finding reminders and, and what's so beautiful now, and I clung to Henry so much in the beginning like, I'll die without you. And now I love him, but I don't need him. And I didn't feel that way in the beginning.

I just, I needed to feel safe and I'm okay with saying that. I'm so proud. I can admit that. It was like my bad mantra, my, I mean, it came back with a vengeance and I was riddled with shame. I slipped back into anorexia. I mean, it was dark. So before the like, yeah, where I am now

and I'm not even there now was a dark night of the soul. But the starting place to liberate yourself from this notion that you're broken and this desire for intimacy, but fear of it because that's associated with- I didn't know I desired it. People leave all of these things. Like the only way to unravel this knot

is to go back to the beginning and heal the wound where it was created. Like, how can you process that experience and like- Isn't there a shortcut? And really feel that grief and change the story around what happened when your father passed, right? Like that's where the liberation is gonna happen.

I agree, and also, yes, and it's hard when you have 40 something years of, it's like in my marrow. That's why I call it default self. So it's sort of like the alcohol stuff or anorexia. It's like, I'm not healed, always healing. So yes, go back and heal it. But it's like, it easily pops its head up if I'm out of alignment or I'm not vigilant with being who I say I am, you know? But yes, it does go back to that. And that is why this past year has been so wild because how can it be only now

that I'm dealing with that thing that happened? It makes me feel so silly. I get it. Listen, I'm 58. Like I'm trying to make sense of my childhood only now. It's like, and then you're like, what is wrong with me? I'm like hung up on something that happened, you know, 50 years ago.

And that's like, you know, first of all, nothing. It's insane. It's wrong with us. And also it's such bullshit too, because there's no timeline and we're never too late, you know, all of these things that whether they were taught to us or we've just adopted them are not true. Yeah, you call it the imaginary time gods, which I love.

The ITG, yeah. We're both late bloomers, but talk a little bit more about the violence that we levy on ourselves because we always think that we're not measuring up or we're falling behind or it's too late. Well, so according to who, Rich, like you're a late bloomer. I'm that, that actually fascinates me right now.

I'm like, what in the, what are you talking about? What do you mean? Well, a late bloomer, okay, according to who? Well, I guess, yeah, according to my inner monologue, I suppose. But it's again- But on paper, according to the imaginary time gods. Oh, because so you're 58,

so you should have been here by 50. No, I mean, I think I didn't really figure out my thing until much later than I presume other people do. Right. It's all a story. It all goes back to that. Everything is a story. And I think we lead our lives, we pursue our lives in accordance with some story

that we've fabricated and then buy into as true. Or talk to us or whatever. Whether it's positive or negative, it's all nonsense, right? It's a unconscious thing on some level that we craft based upon this memory and that memory. And yet we know it, but embodying a thing and knowing a thing are different. And then when you put the lie to it and realize like,

oh, I have the agency to tell a new story, it's difficult to do, but I think just the recognition that we're all living out narratives in our own mind. And we assume that we're all on the same page with everybody else, unaware that everyone else has their own narrative. See, I don't, I assume the opposite. That they project on others and the people.

I'm not on the same page. I am an island. Either way, either way. The point is like, it's all a story. And I would, I guess just speaking for myself, like part of my story is like, oh, I'm a late bloomer or whatever, it's like, I don't even attempt to deconstruct that, I just accept it as fact, right?

But it's funny to hear you say that to me. And you've said this, like, oh, you know, how old were you when you wrote your first book or you're like 44? 41. And 44? No, 44. Right, so. I was 41 when I had time. Okay, you're coming into this a little on the later side, like me too, I didn't start my podcast until I was 45.

There's something that is like inflicting violence on ourselves through that, but also I think for other people, there is something inspiring about that because it gives them permission, like, oh, you don't have to have it all figured out. I didn't figure, I'm still like a mess and I have many things I still have to figure out.

What does it even mean figuring it all out? At least to have some level of inner knowing that I am pursuing something personally meaningful and that I am doing my best to live an authentic life, which I couldn't say for a long time. And there it is. And there it is. And this is where our stories are very much aligned.

Like it is a very similar narrative in that regard. And I think when you say like, yeah, I was this old when I wrote this book or what, you know, I'm like, here I am at this age now. And here's the big mess I'm gonna tell you all about. And here's how I contended with it as best I could inelegantly at times. Are you saying I'm ine tell you all about. And here's how I contended with it as best I could inelegantly at times. Are you saying I'm inelegant?

No, in ways that like I'm proud of and not proud of, et cetera. But I think that that is empowering to people because we're all to some degree held captive by the imaginary time gods. And we- I think you need to say that again for the people who are deaf. We exact all kinds of judgment on ourselves

because we feel like we're not enough or we're behind and so-and-so has already done this and that. And this in and of itself is nothing but a story. Yes, and I also find it fascinating how we view our sorrows versus others, right? So the reason it's like to me, you're our serves versus, you know, others, right? So the reason it's like to me, you're so successful and you're this, that, and it's all story.

I don't, I mean, but what my point is like to hear you say that is like, what? So the knowing a thing is one thing. It's our brain and the embodying. And like, if you think I didn't know that I had a drinking problem, you're wrong. But embodying the now what, right? So yeah, you know it, but it's fascinating. I think the sense of humor comes into play here and I'm so big on it because I respond

with levity. So if something's like too precious or it takes itself too seriously, I just check out. But like, you gotta laugh when I said, well, you said I'm a late bloomer, like according to who, and you couldn't answer. And the reason we can't answer is because exactly, exactly, there's this imaginary and whether it's just the way it is or what have you, but it's bullshit. And yet we perpetuate it.

So the more I talk about it and remind people in my way is, you know, with humor and being honest, like I won't lie about my age or anything. It hopefully will. I can't give anyone permission, even though it might feel that way. That's the subtitle. You got to be your own permission slip. But it feels that way. Like, well, maybe, maybe I'm not, you know, there's no such thing as like a universal

timeline or you're supposed to. It's like, should, they're all assholes. So it's the idea of like, you're right, that inner knowing. And also we get to change our minds. And for me that was huge, you know, and I have to remind myself that all the time you get to change your mind. And so who's to say what a leap, what does that even mean? And it's so much about they, them, you know, according to who and really at the end of the day, it's according to me. And if we keep that inner, whatever you wanna call it,

inner compass, inner GPS. You talk about these unconscious commitments that we make. Like that would be one of them. Like I am committed to this idea that I'm a late bloomer. We're not even like really aware that we've made these commitments and we're doubling down on these ideas. And you have to be able to step back

and see yourself at a distance in order to even like identify these patterns that are just on autopilot that we all have that we didn't ever consciously construct. Yeah, and you know, got a shout out to my chosen fam gang, Katie Hendricks. They taught me about that. And it's funny, cause you know, they live in Ohio too.

And Gay said, it's one of my most controversial things. And I was like, that's so interesting. Which is what? Unconscious commitments. And I asked why? Is it because then people have to reckon with the fact that they actually have agency rather than sort of, like, for example,

I have an unconscious commitment. I've recognized that of living in chaos, you know? And so a lot of times it's really hard for people, i.e. me, to recognize what they are. And Gaye will say, one way is you can look at the thing you complain about a lot and like the sort of the how often it's happening, right? And like for me, be like, oh, I'm so unorganized or, you know, this morning was a good example. And then he said, you can go, hmm, they're very big on that sound. And I forget exactly why, but that sound, it's a curious, I love it because it's actually

about curiosity. Where would I have gotten that? You know, and I'm less concerned with the reason and the cause and then now what? But then, you know, again, it's about naming it and then consciously committing to something else. But also for me, it's about compassion. I understand why. I was raised by a single mom, chaos, you know, so I understand why, but to be able to name it and own it and then shift it into, well, what do I want to be consciously committed to? And I think it can be really painful to admit it. Like I have an unconscious commitment to the belief that I'm like unlovable.

That's not me right now, but I know a lot of, especially women or, or to being broke. And so when we really take a look at, wow, what am I committing to unconsciously? It's wild and it's so empowering because then we, and it's a daily practice, consciously shift. And I'm making it sound like it's just so easy, but it's about intentionality. I think a way that I approach that is to identify the need that it's fulfilling.

Yeah, exactly. Because you're doing it for a reason and it's doing something for you. Like the payoff, what do you get? Yeah, you're getting something out of it. You're complaining about it, but in truth, you actually want it. Like you're bringing this into your experience for a reason

and that reason is to do something for you, right? And behind that, you know, part of it is generally about allaying some fear. You have some fear and this behavior or this pattern is keeping that fear at bay and giving you a sense of control or whatever it may be, but it's- Or validating a belief you have about yourself. Exactly, exactly.

You're not worthy or you suck. You have to just deconstruct that and say, okay, well, is that need necessary? If it is, then is there another way to fulfill that or give me that sense of security in a real and meaningful way and not in this way that is destructive and negative? Yeah, I mean, and it's like,

I know we're making it sound easy, like all things that are simple, not easy, but it can be, I think it can feel shameful, like to admit out like, who wants to say I have an unconsciously committed to always being broke. It's like, ew, but the power in that and you know, gay really, really drove that home. And, and, and I just I just thought the fact that he said it's controversial and I realized because yeah, then people, then we have to go, well, now what?

Yeah, cause who wants to look at this stuff, honestly? But when he said that, it brought back why I put that story in the book about the conversation of that's life because who wants to look at that? Because it's controversial because other white people go, well, that's life. That's just the way it is. And no, actually.

Now some things, yes, like my nephew has a genetic disorder. That is what is so, but am I always going to have to hustle? No, that's not just life, right? So it did really struck a nerve with me. I thought, wow, yeah, what do I want to consciously commit to rather than being like, that's just the way it is. So what is the big unconscious commitment that you're trying to untangle right now?

This tattoo, Conscious ink, you know, I get to have this and the this, it's not like I get to have this rich and you don't, it's like, I get to be happy, you know, I didn't think I did. And so, you know, your this is whatever your inner asshole tells you you don't get to have, but I keep trying to unpack it because,

you know, success, whatever, I define success very differently than the standard. To me, it's like, I told the truth today. I was aligned, but that, no matter what, I'll always have to hustle, that, you know, that's what I watched my mom and a my mom and a single mom and chaos and hand to mouth. And I don't get to have ease that I'll never get there.

And there is ever changing and who knows. And I hear it, I hear how, you know, I won't get to sit at the table as I'm sitting at Ritual's table, but, and it all is because I'm a bad person and I can like cognitively get why. And yet that sneaky mofo is sometimes still there. And I'm up against it right now, right before the book comes out because I think we find, I know we find what we're looking for. And so when I'm out of alignment and I'm feeling like fear is the boss of me and all of a sudden

if I'm like, no one likes me, and I will find evidence of that. And so in this time before the book, no, thank you, and like, no returned emails or whatever it may be, it's like, see, see, looking for all this evidence. And so I have to be very consciously committed to staying aligned to who I know I am, rather than looking for evidence of all them

letting me know I suck. Because anyway, it's a story, but. And what else is part of that practice? You talked about the painting, keeping your phone away from you, things like that. But like, how do you tend to yourself to, you know, what is the self-care practice beyond like the painting and the phone stuff?

Yeah, so the painting for me is self-care. And I love that I've started selling them too, because that's amazing, but that's a really great question. I'm really, I don't know if this is considered self care, but I'm really discerning with my energy and my time. And so if I don't want to go, no. So that's self care, meaning, you know, I don't divvy myself out out of obligation. People please.

No, I mean, I'm sure I still have some qualities of that, but no, I mean, I got other shit, ADD, like raging, but that one, not so much. What I will say is exercise, and yet I was an exercise bulimic and not a like regular bulimic because when I was in high school and I became, I couldn't, but I have an exercise in two years and it really helps me with my depression and with everything. And I haven't been able to get started again.

And so I feel sort of confronted when you asked me the self-care thing. But I will say the not drinking, like last night I wondered, I was so, I wasn't at risk of drinking, but I felt so angry that I couldn't and that why can't I just be like someone who just can and have one and that I didn't, that I found something else. And then I started painting and laughter, finding ways to laugh. So self-care for me is the biggest one right now is the fact that I'm not abusing myself anymore with the alcohol. And does the fact that the book is about to come out,

like it brings all this stuff up, right? Are you kidding? Yeah. I am like, ready for this? Why did I tell people? Because if I didn't say it out loud, I could have drank and then gone back to not drink all the lies. Yeah.

I mean, you have no idea. That could have been the next book. You could have like made that later. I am like, Jennifer, why did you have to say it out loud? You know? And my son's away, Henry is away. My dad's death anniversary is coming up. The book's about to come out.

I am in it and there is no alcohol in my system. And so it's an experience that I've never had before. I mean, as an adult. When I think about your story, it just reaffirms this idea that these wounds that we all have, if we can summon the courage to face them and heal them, or at least attempt to heal them, that it creates not only the foundation for a new life,

a more authentic life, a life that is freer and more honest. That's free. But also when you extend that courage to share it by dint of your books, that this is the stuff of human connection, right? And fundamentally, like the wound is really all about like connection. The wound is the start of our inability to connect

and by healing it and sharing it, we resolve it. And we find ourselves more connected to other people than we could have imagined. And yeah, that fear of like, oh my God, I told this story and people are gonna read it or why did I do this or why did I do that? But like that shared humanity is what makes us realize like that we're all in this together, that we're one

and we can see ourselves in other people. It's always fascinating to me the way I call it fall in loveable, you know, like you can't define it, but it's like right now, you're so fall in loveable because you're just being utterly yourself. Sometimes it's like the snot's flying, they're laughing, but it's the things that we often hide.

And that is the thing that is so attractive and beautiful. We hide them because we think that's the thing that's gonna make people not wanna be around us. Again, it goes back to them. It's all about them. And in the book, I italicize it because I'm like, who are they? But them, what, and then like, how about self-promotion?

Like, I wanna barf in my mouth if I keep pre-orders are so important, but them. And then like, how about self promotion? Like I want to barf in my mouth if I keep pre-orders are so important, you know, and people are like, wow, you're so good at it. Well guess what? The reason most people can't do it is because it's about what others will think. I mean, I've never met anyone who, I mean, maybe one person, but they're like, yeah, because people think, oh, oh, they think they're so important or how dare they like themselves or be proud. All of it is them.

All of it is about what they think. And human connection, I mean, I'm good at like two things and what I'm good at, I'm really good at and most things I'm not, but connection is my superpower. And I don't care why, the reason is I just know it is. And I do know that it's been exacerbated by my deafness. But to me, that community is where I find God, connection. And that's everything. And so it is important to share because, and the fact that people find it so revolutionary

and courageous makes me want to do it more because it's like, wow, just like, because you're not supposed to do that or what will they think or all the things, you know? And I think a world of more people unapologetically being who they are and shining their light as it were, how magnificent and magical would that be? It's weird that it's a revolutionary act to say, I'm gonna give myself permission to do this or I get to have love and I don't need anybody else

to tell me whether I'm worthy or not. Like all of these are ideas that are, it's a common struggle for lots and lots of people and you've been able to navigate them. You're sharing your story. You've changed your life in certain ways, but- But I don't have it figured out. No, so this is what I'm saying.

Like it's all messy, you know, change is hard. It's nuanced, it's not linear, you know, it's up and down. It's just this pastiche. And, you know, every day you got to start over again. Everyone. And like appreciating that and not saying, here are the steps and here's how you can do it. But within that, you're somebody who has gone

from a person who thought change would kill you. Like that's the last thing I'm ever gonna do to being able to navigate change. And I think everybody on some level wants to make a change in their life. They know they could be a little bit better or they aspire to something. And because we're human, we struggle

and we fall down and we misstep. So what can you say to the person who is in that struggle, who is suffering, who's trying, but having a hard time with this? Like, what is it that distinguishes the person who can say, I'm going to stand up for myself and I'm gonna walk through the flames and confront my fear and try to do something on my own behalf

versus the person who remains prisoner to their fear or struggles and continues to go back to what feels safe. It's funny that you said, I think everyone wants to change. I would have fought you before in that. I'd be like, no, I don't, never. But deep down, we all want something, right? And maybe we see a better version of ourselves,

whether we do anything about that is a different matter. But I think on some level, or maybe I'm wrong, I don't know. There's a part in the book where I was talking about my ex and my marriage, and I said, hold up. If you're about to like go off on going, why did she, you know, she's just some memoirist who ended in navel gaze and she was in a fine marriage. And of course it's worse than I think no one's thinking about me at all.

But, but I said, I like how that's worse. I mean, it's true. I think we can all get ourselves in check more often. Like I'm always like, get over yourself, John. Or like Eleanor Roosevelt, you wouldn't worry so much about what people thought of you when you realize how seldom they actually do. But I said, before you start like trying to figure out why, because there's no outward bruises because it looked fine.

I wanted to, my want is enough. And when I said that, it felt like I got goosebumps and I, oh, your want is enough. And again, I'm not talking about dangerous things that hurt other people intentionally or something, but I mean like, you know, you want to write, but you're afraid, you want to leave, you want whatever, your want is enough. And if we remember that, or it really goes back, I get to have this.

So it's unpacking what is it that your inner asshole or whatever you call it, you know, find what resonates for you is telling you, you don't get to have that rich. Who do you think you are? You think you get to have reciprocity or ease or love? It's not true. And it's like, my tattoo says, I got you. And you might be like, well, you're full of shit. You don't really know me in person. It doesn't matter. Because A, your people are out there if you stay open, but you are held. And I don't mean that in any kind of like airy fairy, even religious way, but you are.

And I thought change would kill me. No, did it hurt? Yes. It's, if you are willing to stop lying to yourself, that is the ultimate game changer, the ultimate one. Because once you do and you get honest and then you ask now what, even if it's the tiniest thing,

even if it's like, well, the first now what is just imagining it. But it's the denying our wants, denying what is so. And I'm queen of that. Oh, if I don't say that I can't hear out loud, it doesn't exist, you know? So, willing to be honest with yourself and then, but it's, I think being self-aware is overrated

because if there isn't, and you know this from recovery, because if there's not a now what, yeah, big deal. I knew why I did what I did. Yeah, self-awareness will avail us nothing as it is said in the rooms. Man, I thought I made it up. There's the want, the want to be better, to do something different.

And then there's the doing of it. And there's a big gap in between want and do, right? How do we bridge the gap? Okay, and so what is in the middle? And you said it in my mind, this is how I think about this, tell me if you agree. In the middle is this thing called willingness. And willingness is a freak.

A freak, like freak in the sheets? Basically, because willingness- Why did I just say freak in the sheets? Willingness is this weird force of nature that you can't really summon. It's almost like a visitation. Like, are you willing? Are you willing?

Like, are you willing? Like, what are you willing to do? I mean, Rich, you're in my brain, get out. Willingness is different from want or desire. It's like, what are you actually going to do? And you can be willing to be willing, but on some level, and I've said this before, that's sort of like asking somebody to want something

they don't actually want, because if you're not willing, you're not gonna do it. Well, I- But we have these moments- Mic drop. Of willingness. Like when your husband said, that's life, suddenly the seas parted and you had this visitation of willingness

that you would never have before. But the key you said is moments of, moments of. So I think willingness visits us in those moments. And then we're faced with having to make a decision to grab onto it and channel it into action. But if we don't and we let the moment pass, the willingness kind of dissipates and goes back into the atmosphere.

So I bought my house because I read a book called The Big Leap That Changed My Life by Gay Hendrix. And of course, cause the universe, you know, they're my neighbors and they're like house, because I read a book called The Big Leap That Changed My Life by Gay Hendrix. And of course, because the universe, you know, they're my neighbors and they're like my best friends now, because that's the universe. But Katie Hendrix will say to me, are you willing to expand your capacity for, and whatever it may be? And she's not trying to teach me, but just by who she is, modeling who she is, it rubs

off on me. But I love that question. So let's say expansiveness or financial, whatever it may be. And I love that because it forces me to reckon with, huh, am I willing? And I got to look at that. So again, with the intentionality, yes, willingness can come, you know, like a divine moment. And again, the moment thing is important to me because I get trapped with like, for the rest of my life, I will instead of today.

But what if we wake up and consciously commit to that. Now we might fail at it, but we get to begin again with a new breath. But what if you get like, okay, am I willing to expand my capacity for financial abundance? Let's just go with that. And, you know, whatever it is to reckon with and then shift it into a conscious commitment, which starts with a now up, but also it starts with what we're saying to ourselves. Does that make sense or no? Yeah, I think so. I think I would translate that into saying that,

yes, there are these, you know, parting of the seas moments, you know, lightning flashes and you know the seas moments, lightning flashes. Right. And you- It feels like divine. Suddenly you have superhuman powers all of a sudden, right? But on the daily, we're never totally without willingness. It's just that willingness is at a lower home. And so the question becomes in the moment, in the day, like what am I actually willing to do right now?

I love it. So when your husband says, that's his life, you weren't willing to put your foot down and say, I'm leaving right now. Well, I said, how about a separation? But I didn't actually. But you put words to it, but what did your feet actually do, right?

But you could say, well, I'm gonna journal my thoughts about this while they're fresh. Which I very much did not. Or I could do, yeah, like, I mean, just saying like on a basic level, like there's always something you are willing to do. And I think when you indulge that willingness

and actually translate it into action, then you're basically opening the portal for more willingness to take the next step. So it's about action. Yes, but also it goes back to being honest with yourself because so I'm allowed tattooed on me and I have people make a grocery list and I say grocery list because it's not good,

it's not bad is what it is. I want you to write down what you're allowing in your life. And some of the things are going to make you feel like a rock star and some are going to be like, for example, I allow myself to say no. I allow myself to sleep late. I allow myself to look at my phone and compare myself to other people and feel like shit. Right? See what I'm saying?

And so then I say, circle the ones that are intentional. The willing is the same thing. It's about being honest with yourself. So going, am I willing? And really, really being honest with yourself. And then if you go, no, but I'm walking around like acting like I am or pretending, that's the reckoning. So it's being honest with yourself.

And if you're not willing, that's okay too. Stop saying you are, maybe, but being honest with yourself, but making a conscious commitment, because I do think, and if you're not willing, unpack it. What are you willing? And notice I didn't put anything after that because I love just the word, are you willing? You said, if we wanna transform anything,

it's essential to go beyond the face of things or how they seem to appear, especially with regard to ourselves, which is basically a way of saying we have to be rigorously self-honest. Yes, and that doesn't mean that, especially if you have a lot of followers on Instagram, that you have to tell everyone everything.

Like, you know, when I bought my house, I swear people would be like, can you point me to the post where you talked about when you bought your house? You know, I'm not kidding, same with my marriage. And so sometimes there's a, I got a letter in the mail, someone found my address and sent me a letter before I publicly announced I was leaving and, and because it was no one's business yet. And it was written like a ransom letter. It was like, you know, made fun of me, my quote, it said, may I have the courage to be who I say I am? And it's like, whoa, I don't owe anyone to explain myself.

I won't hide in shame and I will do my damn best not to lie to myself anymore. And that's it. That's pretty good. I fail at that sometimes, but- What is the main idea that you want people to take away from your story and this book? Yeah, you know, I'm so bad at decisions

unless it's deciding beforehand, like it's not gonna work or it's gonna be hard. But so are these questions like, oh my God, there's so many, but proof of life really is after I sold the book about a year later, I looked around with a panic attack and I was like, I haven't written it. I haven't even started it.

I've done nothing. I have no money. I haven't even filed for divorce. What have I done? And I was like hyperventilating. A year after you sold the book. Yeah, can I have that thing, gift I gave you? What? The blue, the thing?

Yeah. Yeah. My friend, Emily McDowell made the, this is my quote, but she made this. It says, when I get to the end of my life, my son likes to chant it. And I ask one final, what have I done? Let my answer be, I have done love. You know, at the newsroom,

I had a breakdown a hundred years ago, because I thought I was going to be a scholar, a poet in academia. And I'm there with my apron, with a veggie burger in my hand. And I was like, what have I done? Like 10 years in. And later it dawned on me, you've done love. So a year after I sold the book, I looked around and I'm like, what have I done? And I caught myself.

That is the key. I caught myself with, cause I was like, I have nothing to show for it. I have nothing to show for myself. I was saying that in my head and I was like, whoa, whoa, whoa, wait a minute. I don't have to show shit. I am my own proof of life. I've done love. Look at all the paintings I made. I did the scariest thing and it didn't kill life. I've done love. Look at all the paintings I made. I did the scariest thing and it didn't kill me. I fell in love. I nurtured relationships.

I ended one. Screw that idea that we look how worthy I am. Look, see, this proves it. And I think a lot of people, you know, and I do my best not to, we live in a way where we feel that we have to prove somehow. Like there is something and there is nothing, not a damn thing that you can hold in your hand that, you know, I said in my TED talk, everything that's weird and wonderful and magical about you is invisible.

You know? I mean, not everything, your beard's pretty great, but it's like, you can't, oh, oh, look, I'm worthy, see? My podcast is number one. No. And so I have to remember that. And therefore I'm not like someone who's figured it out. I'm just sharing my shit.

I have to remember that all the time. I am my own proof of life. Simply by virtue of me being born, I'm worthy. I get to have this, meaning I do get to be happy. My birthright is not stress. My birthright is not shame. My birthright is not hustle. So it's that, it's you are your own proof of life.

That's really beautiful and powerful. It's also exactly what I need to hear. Oh, how funny. Amazing. Yeah, I mean, I'm very conscious of- Is it because I said your podcast is number one? No, no, no, no, no, far from that. It's actually the opposite. I'm kidding.

It's the idea that I look around and I'm very proud of like this thing that I've created in this life that I've built. But I'm also very aware that so much of the motivation came from this deep need to be loved and seen. And the idea- Oh, you're so vulnerable. That's all lovable. The idea that I'm not entitled to it,

that I have to earn it. And the only way to earn it is to like distinguish myself and do something that people will pay attention to. So it's a little boy in the corner who's like, please love me, please love me and pay attention to me. That's the wounding at the core of it. And I would have to imagine is beneath a lot of people who are ambitious and go out into the world

and do big things. And it's challenging because my life is great and I'm very happy and I'm so proud of this thing. I love what I do. I'm so happy to hear you say that. But also I'm aware of the motivational like antecedents of the whole thing. And the idea that I don't have to do this in order to be loved.

Has it shifted the motivation? It is in the shifting phase. Thank you for your honesty. Have I overcome it? No. No, I don't think we have. I mean, the idea of overcoming is like, I work with women who've lost children. I scholarship them to my retreat

and you don't ever get over it. But it really moved me when you said that because yeah, I mean, that's like, I used to say I wanted to be an actress and I literally waited at the host stand of the newsroom to be discovered and people laugh and it's like, Oh, you think I'm kidding? Also, I wasn't discovered. But I was waiting for someone to love me. But then I got even deeper and I was like discovered, but I was waiting for someone to love me. But then I got even deeper and I was like,

no, I was waiting for someone to tell me, it's not your fault and you're not bad and you can stop hating yourself. But at the end of the day, and like I have to have compassion because yes, I do have that hole in me. And so there is a part of me that's like, do you love me now?

Do you love me now? And like, see, I'm never gonna get it, no matter what. That's fall in love-able though, the fact that you shared that, like that's what makes me fall in love with a person. I don't mean that like sexually, just like, I wanna put you in my pocket, but you're so tall. And I share it because may I remember,

and I have to remember every day, and especially right now, right before the book, and every possible thing is coming up that's like, no, of course, you don't get to have that, Jen. You don't get to have that. And can you navigate the book release and all the stuff that comes with that from a place of joy and gratitude rather than like, refreshing your Amazon page.

Yes and, yes and. And what does this mean and like, how are people perceiving me and all of the unhealthy aspects of it. Yes and, is that fair? I mean, yes. And like my friend, Shawna a man who took her life, she wrote a beautiful book, novel called Oh, You Pretty Things. And in the book, the best

friends would call each other boof. So we would call each other boof. And her book came out before my last book and she would say, boof, I've been here before, enjoy every part of this, every moment, every, you know, even the this part, you know, and, and I, and, and lately she's just with me so much. I hear her, I hear her. And she used to also say, boof, your brand is truth. And she would also say, I'm, I'm polarizing like cilantro. She was so funny. But yes, and so absolutely I'm in joy. I'm proud. And I have a thing called give yourself a medal. And like even being after I did the audio book, I was like, besides the typos I found on brand, I was like, I'm really proud. And I realized how uncommon that is for people.

Like you're not supposed to say that. And so owning that and joy, but the and, and I won't lie about the and part. You shouldn't lie. You shouldn't lie. Should is an asshole, I know. Oh, I know that's me. I use the word should.

You know, that was on my list of things to ask you, like this idea of should being an asshole. I should myself a lot. If you could see what I see, there's an exercise I do to, I am glad I remember this, to ground myself so I remember, I think of someone, so right now,

think of someone who loves you living or dead, like really loves you. And you know, you can close your eyes or if you're like me and you don't, and really, really visualize them. And, and I hate the word should, but if you're doing it, it should feel good, safe, right. And then you walk out of the house carrying that. But I like things that are tangible. So then write a letter in their voice. So it requires imagination. Dear Rich, and it starts like this,

if you could see what I see. And then you write it in their voice. So it's a letter to yourself. In the voice of someone who loves you. But not from you write it in their voice. So it's a letter to yourself. In the voice of someone who loves you. But not from yourself, but in the voice, you're putting yourself in the shoes of someone who cares for you. You jumped ahead. So, okay, Rich, just write the sentence. No, go ahead.

Come on, dear Rich, do it. I'm all bossy, do it. Dear Rich, and then you write, if you could see what I see. So imagination is so underrated. So you're visualizing one of your children, your dead relative, whoever, like, you know, if you could see what I see, and then everything they would say and you imagine it in their voice and often people cry as they're writing it. And then I say, when you finish, I need you to write this PS. PS, I wrote this with my own hand. So it's what I already know, comma, but may have forgotten. And then I'm like, carry it around like a talisman. I have people read it out loud in my workshops if they want to. Nine times out of 10 people cry. Sometimes it's because the person's dead

and they miss them. But most of the time they cry because there's a chasm between this on the paper, how this person who loves them see them and how they're walking about the world, talking to themselves, you know, and they start to cry. And it's wild to see. And so it's like, how do we bridge the gap? And so, you know, that's just another

tool. You know, for me, it's like, whatever works. I carry my dad's, you know, this like, I call it his Jewy necklace. It's like his thing he wore and it's like little talent, whatever works, but that letter is a reminder. Of course you wrote it, but if you give yourself permission, if you're willing, you write it in their voice, it is so moving. And then you go, it is what you know. They didn't crawl in your body and write it. And that's wild.

So if you could see what I see and maybe we all have people that reflect that back to us rather than like reflect back to us that we suck. The emotions around that are also because there's a recognition of its truth. Absolutely. And what, what? And forget the why, but wow, I am not living in accordance with that truth or walking around with that as if it is so. You know, like, if you could see what I see

and they read all these things and I'm like, whoa, isn't that a mindfuck? You actually wrote that with your own hand. And they're like, huh? It's great though, but if you could see what I see, you know. Put that in your pipe and smoke it. In your what? In your pipe and smoke it. Yeah. I swear, if I'm going to write a book called The Things I Mishere, I mishear everything and you know, it's like the thing about the hearing loss you asked in the very beginning was like,

some days are a pity party. I try to have a sense of humor. Sometimes I fail, but if I didn't, I wouldn't get out of bed, but group settings, forget it. I feel so stupid all the time. Really? Yeah. Logically, shame is not logical.

Logically, I know I'm not, but you try sitting around and not understanding anything anyone's saying. When I went to Jeff Krasner's thing, when I sat next to your beautiful wife, the room would laugh and I would laugh and I wasn't faking it, but I had no idea why I'm laughing. And then that starts a shame cycle. And like, I mean, it's awful. It's awful. So then I avoid and I, you know,

and sometimes I take one for the team and I'll go to a group dinner. And if it seems like I'm checking out, it's cause I am or looking at my phone because it's, first of all, it's exhausting, but it's like being in a foreign country, you know? And oh, world's smallest violin, you know, everyone has something, but it's, um, yeah, it's very

lonely. And because I'm between two worlds, I'm not, um, capital D deaf. I don't exist in deaf culture. I don't know ASL. I rely on hearing aids and lip reading. It's like, I'm like in the, um, mezzanine. Yeah. in the mezzanine. But I think that's why I rely a lot on sense of humor, not to bypass, but because Jesus Christ,

I wouldn't get out of bed otherwise. Yeah. But that's good self-awareness because if you're good at humor, it becomes- Am I? I think you're funny. Yeah. I'm kidding.

You're like, yeah. I'm kidding. You baited me right into that. If you're good at humor, then it becomes an easy self-defense mechanism to like keep people at bay and not have to look at your shit because you can always, you have this weapon,

this tool where you can deflect everything. You're right. And also I say now I lead with the thing that causes me shame. So I'm not like suggesting if someone's been sexually assaulted, they walk in a room but I would never tell people. And sometimes it gets exhausting

and I forget to say, hey, I'm deaf, I lip read but now I lead with that so that I don't spend an hour pretending, feeling stupid, all the things. And it's so empowering and it's freeing and it's just, it's incredible. And that's shameless too. So I walk in and right off the bat and I go,

by the way, I'm gonna mishear a lot, but it's funnier when I hear, so. Which is exactly what you said when you walked in. I did, and I mean, literally, I don't know, like I probably like heard 30% of what you said in the rest. I just like nodded, no. But this is easy. We're in a contained setting.

I'm still working very hard. I'm focused, I'm working. But oh my God, if it's like, like that night at Jeff's, I heard like one thing he said. But a friend of mine who is brilliant playwright named Jez Butterworth, I went and saw his play Jerusalem with Holt McAllenay. And I felt ashamed because Holt has a loudest laugh. I love you, Holt.

And I would laugh along and I didn't hear any, like I couldn't make out the dialogue. And at the end of the play, I was weeping. And I was like, what the fuck? And Jazz, who's like our greatest living playwright, said something that fascinated me because I wouldn't have thought, but he said, it's not about the words anyway, it's about the rhythms.

That was such a gift because he was right. That's why I was crying. That's why I was crying. That's why I went to Jeff's knowing that I wouldn't be able to make out, but it's about the rhythms or however you wanna translate, but I felt it. I still wanna make out dialogue quite often, but when he said that it's about the rhythms.

But I wonder if you're not tuning into people on an even deeper level, because the fact that you can't hear them, you're focused on their body. I hear, I can't make it out. Okay, so there's noises happening. Noise. On some level, but you're paying attention

to body language, expressions, and you're noticing things that when we're just paying attention to what people are saying, we're not really focusing on. Absolutely. And so there's probably more information that you're gathering than the normal human who's just listening and not really like

paying attention to the visual field. And like I said, in the beginning, I've tapped more into that and more into that. And yeah, and even stuff that's not even body language, even stuff that's like, you know, I don't know, I'm going back to my yoga training, subtle body, you know, just energy, what have you. In my workshops that don't,

I don't necessarily do so much yoga anymore, but a lot of times people are on yoga mats because I want to get them more in their body less here. There's a group and I have to get really close. So I say, I'm going to come over and like sit in your lap. You know, I don't do that, but I get very close. It can be intimidating and scary, but ultimately it's like people have never felt so heard.

But let me tell you, if I was a typical hearing person, ain't no way I'd be doing that. Because A, space invader, I mean, you know, but because of that gift, now, it's not like immediately like I'm deaf, it's a gift, but I'm able now to be like, holy, wow, that's amazing. You know, I would have never, like I crawl over on my butt and I get really close, like I crawl over on my butt and I get really close because I have to.

But the gift in that is that intimacy, that connection, what people, the way people feel heard in a way, like because this weirdo is in their face because she has to be. So I think, you know, there are some gifts in it and it's also frustrating as hell a lot. Well, ultimately all we really want is to be seen, right? That's what I said in the beginning,

when I sat down I was like. For you to be like hyper present with someone and really, you know, connecting with them, if not, you know, verbally is a nourishing feeling that, you know, makes us feel connected. Yeah, and unless, you know, some people have terrifies them until it doesn't. Mm-hmm, right, it's scary.

Don't come too close. Well, I mean, come on, you know. You might see the version of them that they're trying to hide, right? That's the scary thing. Rich, I never used to look people in the eye, like you would not recognize me. And I don't just mean like with sex,

like, because forget it, I never ever opened my eyes. I mean, yeah, I said what I said. I didn't, I until like Henry. So I mean people, like I would like, you know, and one time a million years ago, I did something called the Landmark Forum, which I'm sure you know what it is. Yeah, of course.

Then I did the advanced course. And then we were on stage and we had a lineup and I was next to this sweet guy, I can't think of his name. And he was across from me and we just had to do the eye contact thing, which I do at my workshops a lot. And there was like hundreds of us and I'm on stage,

he's across from me. And it's like, this us and I'm on stage, she's across from me. And it's like, this is something I don't do. And I started hyperventilating and crying like somebody told me, my mom had just died. And I had to run off the stage and I was so embarrassed. And I mean, but crying like, like, I mean, like you really think someone was murdered or, and I mean, I, and it really, really got clear to me that I never let anyone look at me

because I was afraid they would see that I was a bad person. I'm so proud now that I can be with it. I can be with someone seeing me and allow it. Let's end with imagining the person who's struggling right now, who feels stuck, who's terrified of making eye contact with someone else, who knows that perhaps there's a different life available,

but is paralyzed to make a change. And the prospect of writing a letter to themselves in the voice of someone who cares for them, like that's too big a leap. Like where does this person start? Assuming they have some iota of willingness to do something, like where should that person place their attention and what would be your counsel on like where to go from there?

It's gonna sound like such a cliche, but the first thing I thought when you said where to go from there is like, there's nowhere to go. That's it. I spent my life going, leaving my body any way I could. And like for the first time, stay. Which is the hardest thing for me. I didn't even remember this and I saw I wrote it down and there's a part in the book where

he said, Charlie asked mommy, do the trees stay awake at night? And I'm so glad I wrote it and a friend heard and answered, why no Charlie, they sleep of course. It's very tiring holding up the sky. And so toward the end of the book, I said, you can rest, you don't have to hold up the sky anymore. You get to allow and I'm purposely not putting anything after that word because it's so powerful, you know, and to really sit with without shame what you are allowing in your life.

And if you look at it and you want to cringe for joy, for intimacy, for whatever it is. And if you're like, well, I don't know how, wonderful. Go discover. You get to do that. And you know, I think I know a lot of us feel like we're cooked by a certain age, which is why when I started painting and I have no idea what I'm doing, people are like, well, how do you know what paint to use? I don't. I do whatever I want. And people, I could never do that. They're not willing to explore, to play. And so it's about discovering and allowing for that, you know, allowing for, you get

to have a life that lights you up. And if you don't know what lights you up, go find what lights you the fuck up. And instead of being overwhelmed by it, which is what I do, get excited by it. Like, okay, cool. And you're not too old or too late. That's bullshit. Fine. What excites you and what doesn't? You get to have a life that lights you up. And I'm not talking about privilege because I am privileged. We are, you know, I'm talking about just by virtue again of you being born. You do. And whatever story is like,

you have to earn it, Rich. You gotta earn it. You gotta earn your rest. You gotta earn it. You get to have a life that lights you up. And if you don't know what it is, go find it. Thank you. That was really beautiful.

You're very beautiful. I appreciate the openness that you brought to this experience today. It's very meaningful to me. I'll have a vulnerability hangover on the way to Antwerp, Julie, but you know. It's gonna be dinner soon.

No, I gotta make it to the airport. Proof of life, you're gonna wanna read this book, pick it up wherever you buy your fine books. We did it. How do you feel? I feel- Did we do it right? We did it more than right.

Okay. And we did it- I wanna make sure you're happy. I'm so happy. And what I wanted to say was though, I did a nutty thing, which is I'm giving away a spot to my Italy retreat, which is four grand.

Can I afford it? No. But I know I'll be taking care of. And if people buy 10 copies, giving away a spot to my Italy retreat, which is four grand. Can I afford it? No. But I know I'll be taken care of. And if people buy 10 copies, if you want to buy 10 copies from an indie bookstore, and I love it because it supports an independent booksellers, which are dying breed. And it excites me because I'm doing that and people are buying from indie bookstores. I'm going to pick the winner July 8th, but a few people have bought it to donate it,

were they to win and I'll gift the retreat spot to a woman who's lost a child. Oh, wow. So I know for a lot of people, $300, like if you're trying to keep the lights on, nap for you. But there's such a, you know, vast landscape with finances and there's people with $300 is like, yeah, not a thing. So it's win-win to me

because you're supporting an indie bookstore, you're supporting me. And I believe you're supporting yourself because you get to see the, I got you effect works and hopefully believe you get to have that too. So. Amazing. So I assume you're gonna go on tour with the book.

Is there a way for people to find out where you're going to be doing events and stuff? Where do I direct the audience? Yeah, they can, I mean, they can throw a rock and find me, but Instagram, Jen Pasteloff. My sub stack is the same title of my book because I mean, they're really smart with SEO or very lazy with naming proof of life

or jenniferapasteluff.com. Yeah, so I'm excited. I'm doing something with Anne Lamont, which is a very like pinch me moment. She's the best. And, you know, Maggie Smith and Henry's coming on tour with me, you know, like next week in Pasadena. He's in conversation with me.

Nice. And you've got Anne Lamott, an Anne Lamott blurb on the cover. I sure did, Rich Roll. That's insane. And she's in my icon. And please note that she mentioned humor, which for a self-help book, to me, there's nothing worse than like, this is so precious and it takes itself so seriously. So that was like, oh, thank you.

It gives a wink to the reader, like, yeah, right. It's not gonna be too douchey. A not too douchey self-help book. I mean, there's moments, I'm sure someone will be like, not douchey, but not too douchey. Right, not too douchey. I'm not saying it's entirely without douche. Yeah, but you know.

A light dusting of doucheyness. No, but really like, what a gift. I do think anyone who takes himself too seriously, I just, I'm not interested. It's so boring. And so it's, I just, I do, I feel like it's a, it's a little like a, what do you call that? Like when you give someone a signal, it's a signal like,

when you write humor on a self-help book, you're in good hands, I think, but I'm biased, but I think. I think you're on the right track. Awesome, thanks for doing this. Thank you. Say hi to my wife for me. Oh yeah, I will. Let me know how I can be of service.

That's it for today. Thank you for listening. I truly hope you enjoyed the conversation. To learn more about today's guests, including links and resources related to everything discussed today, visit the episode page at richroll.com where you can find the entire podcast archive, my books, Finding Ultra, Voicing Change,

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