The Rich Roll Podcast - RAAM Victor Leah Goldstein Turns Pain Into Fuel: Life Pivots & The Power of A No Quit, No Limit Attitude

Episode Date: December 6, 2021

What does it take to achieve the impossible? Don’t set limits. And never quit. Ever. The full embodiment of this ethos, today’s guest has never met an obstacle she couldn’t overcome, transcending every limit ever placed upon her. Her secret? Never give pain a voice. An extraordinary athlete and absolute force of nature, Leah Goldstein has lived one of the more interesting lives you will ever come across. After winning the Bantamweight World Kickboxing Championship at just 17 years old, Leah walked away from a bright future in competitive martial arts to join the Israeli Defense Force, becoming a Krav Maga specialist and the first female Elite Commando Instructor before a storied career as an undercover Special Forces intelligence officer. In yet another dramatic life pivot, Leah then embarked on a professional cycling career. A devastating crash ended her Olympic dreams, her pro career, and nearly her life. After being told she might not walk again and certainly would never race again, Leah remained undaunted, ultimately reinventing herself once again as an ultra-distance cyclist. In 2021, at age 52 (and entirely plant-based) she became the very first woman in the 39-year history of RAAM—the 3000-mile Race Across America transcontinental cycling race—to beat everyone, including all the men, and outright win the solo division. Today she shares her story. It’s a wild ride. Today’s conversation traverses the vast diversity of Leah’s life experiences and accomplishments—and the mindset that fuels her ability to face fear, overcome adversity, and transcend limits. It’s a conversation about grit, perseverance and work ethic. The importance of life pivots. How to expand your capacity to endure. And the ‘never quit’ drive required to do amazing things. It’s also about bullying, sexism, and channeling pain into achieving impossible goals. But more than anything, this exchange is about the importance of heeding your inner voice—and tapping the hidden reservoirs of potential that reside within us all to make audacious dreams manifest. To read more click here. You can also watch it all go down on YouTube. And as always, the podcast streams wild and free on Apple Podcasts and Spotify. Leah may be extraordinary. But the wisdom and experience she shares is applicable to all. May her story spark your flame—and elevate your life aspirations. Peace + Plants, Rich

At this point, there was, I think, a couple of kidnapping attempts on me. And remember, Israel is a very small country, and it's hard to hide me, you know, especially being the only woman doing what I was doing. And there was a lot of tension in the country and at the time. And just one incident, you know, I was working the night shift with my partner, and we saw a police cruiser parked on the side, and two officers were sleeping. They're kind of hugging their M16s, which you can't do. It's very dangerous in the area that we were in.

And we went to the car and we said, you know, what are you doing? But it's a different department. So we basically left. And 45 minutes later, they were assassinated. And all hell break loose in the country. And the next day, too, you know, my department gets a picture of me saying that, oh, like threats of that I was a target. So they had to hide me at that point.

Right. And just knowing that I couldn't go anywhere without being fully armed or, you know, going into my car and checking underneath over whatever, even starting my car was, my heart would start to beat whatever, you know, is it rigged or, you know, so I started to become paranoid and afraid. And, and so I said, you know, I need to transition. And honestly, the only thing that really made me feel alive and the only thing I wanted to do at that time was be a pro racer. You know, what I want to do and what I'm determined to do, I'll make it happen. I'll find a way to make it happen. The Rich Roll Podcast.

Greetings, all you beautiful people dispersed across Podlandia, the podcastosphere, the RRP diaspora. My guest today is the remarkable Leah Goldstein, and you, my friends, are in for a treat. Leah is an extraordinary athlete and just an absolute force of nature, a woman who has lived one of the most interesting and dynamic lives you will ever come across. At just 17, she won the Bantamweight World Kickboxing Championship. She then joined the Israeli Defense Force, becoming a Krav Maga specialist, the first female elite commando instructor, and an undercover special forces intelligence officer. Then, in yet another dramatic life pivot, Leah spent a decade as a professional cyclist. A devastating crash ended her pro career and nearly her life. She was told she might not ever walk again,

would certainly never race again, but undaunted, Leia returned. She reinvented herself as an ultra cyclist. And this past year in 2021 at age 52 and entirely plant-based, I might add, became the very first woman in the 39-year history of Ram, the 3,000-mile race across America, to beat everyone, all the men, and outright win the solo division. It's just a mind-blowing story, and it's coming right up, but first.

It's just a mind-blowing story and it's coming right up. But first. We're brought to you today by recovery.com. I've been in recovery for a long time. It's not hyperbolic to say that I owe everything good in my life to sobriety. And it all began with treatment and experience that I had that quite literally saved my life. And in the many years since, I've in turn helped many suffering addicts and their loved ones find treatment. And with that, I know all too well just how confusing and how overwhelming and how challenging it can be to find the right place and the right level of care. Especially because, unfortunately, not all treatment resources adhere to ethical practices.

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We're brought to you today by recovery.com. I've been in recovery for a long time. It's not hyperbolic to say that I owe everything good in my life to sobriety. And it all began with treatment and experience that I had that quite literally saved my life. And in the many years since, I've in turn helped many suffering addicts and their loved ones find treatment. And with that, I know all too well just how confusing and how overwhelming and how challenging it can be to find the right place and the right level of care. Especially because, unfortunately, not all treatment resources adhere to ethical practices. It's a real problem. practices. It's a real problem. A problem I'm now happy and proud to share has been solved by the people at recovery.com who created an online support portal designed to guide, to support,

and empower you to find the ideal level of care tailored to your personal needs. They've partnered with the best global behavioral health providers to cover the full spectrum of behavioral health disorders, including substance use disorders, depression, anxiety, eating disorders, gambling addictions, and more. Navigating their site is simple. Search by insurance coverage, location, treatment type, you name it. Plus, you can read reviews from former patients to help you decide. Whether you're a busy exec, a parent of a struggling teen,

or battling addiction yourself, I feel you. I empathize with you. I really do. And they have treatment options for you. Life in recovery is wonderful, and recovery.com is your partner in starting that journey. When you or a loved one need help, go to recovery.com and take the first step towards recovery. To find the best treatment option for you or a loved one,

again, go to recovery.com. Okay, so before this past summer, I admit I had never heard of Leah. I first came across her story in the wake of her recent Ram victory and was amazed by her accomplishments. So I started looking a little bit more deeply into her story.

And the more I learned about the vast diversity of her experiences, the more obsessed I became. And because her story is so wild, I became even more amazed that she isn't more widely known. I mean, I personally wanted to know more. I needed to know more. And I wanted more people to know about her. So here we are.

This one hits many sweet spots. Mindset, endurance, high performance, inspiration, motivation, dramatic life pivots, and overcoming seemingly insurmountable obstacles. It's a conversation about grit, perseverance, work ethic, and the never quit drive required to do amazing things. But more than anything, I think this one is really about how important it is for all of us to heed that inner voice and leverage it to tap the hidden reservoirs of potential that reside within us all so that we can all make audacious dreams manifest. So, without further ado, this is me having a conversation with Leah Goldstein. This is me having a conversation with Leah Goldstein. So nice to meet you. Thank you for doing this.

Yeah, thanks for having me. It's an honor. So excited to talk to you. I came across your story in the wake of the Ram victory. I was enthralled by what you had achieved. And I started looking more into your story and just became progressively more and more incredulous with all the amazing things that you've done.

And I knew immediately I wanted to get you on the show. And I also think maybe I'm wrong about this, but I feel like your story, I mean, certainly you got a fair amount of media in the wake of the Ram victory, but I feel like your story is not nearly as well known as it should be. And I almost feel a responsibility,

like people need to know. Thank you. Well, you have me here today, so. Your story is unbelievable, yes. Thank you. So I'm honored and delighted to be able to help kind of spread the word about all the stuff that you've done. Thank you.

I mean, let's just start at the beginning because we're gonna get into Ram and all the details. I have so many questions about that, but your background and your upbringing is fascinating. Your mother's from China, your dad's from the Soviet Union. He was a national boxing champion. And just walk me through like a little bit of the childhood story.

Oh my goodness. Well, I mean, I was made in Israel, born in Canada. My mother was seven months pregnant. My father was in the military. He docked in Vancouver, Canada, and he just saw opportunity there. He was young, he was like 19 years old. So he decided to move the whole family to Canada.

And your grandparents were like, had like, talk to me about them, cause there's a whole part there too. Oh, that's a whole different story, yeah. Yeah, my mother was, you know, she was born in China and she lived there for 14 years till the communism came in and then they escaped the communism and they actually immigrated to Israel.

And then my father was born in the Soviet Union and they came to Israel. My grandmother went through the Holocaust. So it was quite the journey, getting to the Holy land per se. So, yeah. So you ended up in Canada, that's where you're born. Correct.

Right. And did you grow up as a, I mean, with your father being this boxing champion, I'm having these visions of him, some sort of karate kid situation when you were younger. Well, I mean, like how most kids, they watch in Canada, it's hockey, right? Or football or soccer.

I mean, I grew up watching boxing. My father was just every chance he had to watch boxing on television. That's what we did together, right? So, and he's very animated and he would teach me the way they stand, the way they move, the way they punch, right? So I kind of had that in me

before I even started the whole Taekwondo. Did you go into boxing before Taekwondo or how did that begin? No, no, I didn't plan to go to Taekwondo. I was bullied when I was a little kid, right? Like every lunch hour between 12 and 12.45, I was chased by a group of eight boys and couldn't tell the teachers,

you know, didn't want to tell my parents. So I came home one day, I got an hour of television. I start flipping through the channels. I'm looking for a show called Gilligan's Island, right? And then I come across this one channel and I see this small Asian guy fighting five, 10, 15 people. And it was Bruce Lee. And I said, oh my God, you know,

this guy can fight off 30 people. I just have to fight off eight. I have to learn whatever he's doing. And that's how the whole Taekwondo started. Then I begged my mother for lessons. You are your father's daughter, right? So he's probably thrilled. No, not so much at that time.

You know what I mean? He was, cause he knows like the impact that boxing can have, you know, you get a lot of hits to the head and stuff. So when the Taekwondo transitioned to kickboxing, it took him a bit to get used to that idea, right? Right, cause it was non-traditional compared to his notion of combat sports.

Right, yeah, exactly. But Taekwondo first, but from what I understand, I mean, you picked this up pretty quickly. The Taekwondo just came natural to me. And I think because I was very athletic as a child, you know, I was always riding my bike or running or doing whatnot, you know? So I excelled fast. By the time I was 12 years old,

I was a junior national champion. And at 13, I just didn't feel challenged anymore. And that's when I transitioned into kickboxing and Black Belt suggested, you know, you're more of a kickboxer. So then there was one kickboxing studio, like kind of in Skid Row area of Vancouver called Hastings Street.

And I remember going to that studio and then I just felt at home. Why didn't you stick with Taekwondo? I mean, you had such amazing success immediately. Because it's very traditional, right? Like I got like red carded a lot for too much contact and I was a martial artist that stood like a boxer. So you can imagine a 12 year old girl

that stands like a boxer, right? So like I said, Taekwondo is more traditional, karate is more traditional, right? More forms and more beauty and not as realistic to real street fighting as boxing or kickboxing, or cage fighting or whatnot. But I just felt at home in that kickboxing studio and the skill just came really natural to me.

So walk me through your progression as a kickboxer. Well, it was fun. Okay, well, I was a second degree black belt and I remember going into the studio, I had a big head, because I knew I was good. I mean, I barely got through the door. I was so on myself, right? And then the kickboxing coach comes up to me

and he goes, can I help you? And I said, I wanna try this kickboxing because I was a black belt, don't feel challenged. So he just felt that he wants to teach me a lesson basically. So he puts me into a boxing ring. Remember, I'm second degree black belt. He brings in the small little skinny kid, about half my size.

And I think, damn, I'm gonna kill him. But I didn't know it was his most skilled kickboxer, right? So we stand there, this little match starts, whatever. He throws a jab and then hits me in the nose, right? And I've never been hit like that before because Taekwondo is more traditional. And I get mad and angry and I start throwing my best moves and nothing is making contact.

So he basically grabs me from the ring. He tells me, go home and go and think, think about it. Cause he could see I was frustrated and I was trying not to cry. You know what I mean? I go home and I felt totally deflated, right? And I remember trying to sneak into my house. And as soon as I opened the door,

I see my mother standing there and I could feel the trickle of blood down my nose. And she's looking at me like, what the heck happened? And the only words that came out of my mouth was, mom, I'm gonna be a kickboxer. Next day, I went back to that studio. Yeah, and you're 13 at this point? I'm barely 13.

Barely 13. Barely 13. Right, and the instructor, didn't he tell you at some point early on, like, listen, you're rough, but you stick with this and you're gonna be a champion? Oh, he gave me roles. I mean, he said to me, you wanna do this? He goes, no smoking, no drinking, no drugs, no friends,

no swear, train seven days a week, train twice a day. Then he says, you do that, 17, I make you world champion. Those are the words that came out of his mouth. That's an amazing thing to say to a young person. And that was, but I learned at that age, like what does it take to be the best? And it's 110%. So I didn't do the party thing

or the friend thing or whatever. And I didn't train, you know, five days a week, twice a day. I trained seven days a week, three times a day. Cause I was that determined. Right, and at 17, you indeed become world champion. At 17, I become world champion, correct. It's unbelievable. What's the typical age of world championship athletes

in that discipline? Mid 20s. Mid 20s, right. So it must've been quite a thing, you being that much younger than everybody else. You were bantamweight at the time? Correct, I was bantamweight. I was just, like I said, the skill was what, like I remember my coach,

cause I was so slight and small, he didn't want me to wear short sleeve shirts cause he didn't want people to see how skinny my arms were, right? But it's a matter of how you throw the punch, you throw the power behind it, right? And the way you stand and just because of my speed and my skill, that's why I excelled so fast in the sport.

So it had to be quite an experience to know that you were the best in the world at such a young age. I mean, it's not something you think about because I'll be honest with you. You're very all shucks about the whole thing. Well, my coach, I'll tell you something. Like, I mean, I was very good at what I did, but I never ever got complimented by my coach.

He never said, oh, this is what you're good at. He only focused on the things that I was bad at. Even when I won the world championship, he said, he whispered in my ear, you could have done better. You know what I mean? So, you know, there's always one up on you, right? So you always gotta stay grounded no matter where you are,

because, you know, when you are at the top of your game, all it means you have to work twice as hard to stay there. Yeah, and what did you learn about discipline and perseverance and meeting obstacles as a young person who is so devoted to this specific sport discipline? I mean, like I said earlier, I mean, it taught me what it takes to be the best

and it's lasering and it's 110% and it's a lot of sacrifice, right? Like, you tell a 13 year old kid to give up all the fun things, most would probably say no, right? But I knew those sacrifices would pay off at the end. Good times and friends are always gonna be around, but I think especially unique opportunities won't.

Yeah, you seem to have a predisposition, like a deep understanding that delayed gratification is the path, right? Like you're able as a young person going through adolescence and the teen years where there's a lot of temptation to kind of do a lot of different things and get in trouble to just be very focused on the larger goal.

Well, I mean, I knew I had to work harder at a lot of things, cause even in school, let's go back to school. I mean, I had a learning disability, right? You know, I was put in a special class and I knew I had to work twice as hard as everybody else, but I was determined to graduate with honors and I did. But I knew for someone like me, I had to work twice as hard as everybody else, but I was determined to graduate with honors. And I did, but I knew for someone like me,

I had to work twice as hard. Even when I was a child, my left leg was growing at a faster rate than my right leg. It's longer, it's stronger. The foot is bigger. And doctors told my parents that I'd never excel in athleticism. You know, so when you're left with that,

you know, you got challenges, but are you gonna hang on to that? Or are you gonna prove to people what you can do with what you don't have? Right, you're the kind of person who, when somebody tells you you can't do it, that's just fuel for the fire, right? Exactly.

But here's the thing, you become world champion at 17 and I'm just baffled at why you didn't stick with it and just continue to pursue it. Because that was never my dream. Like, you know, my dream. It was your dream enough to be so disciplined and focused and trained so hard for it. Well, you know, that was like,

Bruce Lee was a problem to a solution, right? Or a solution to a problem I should say, right? You know, what I wanted to do from as young as I could remember from when I was seven years old is I wanted to be James Bond, right? And I knew when I graduated from high school that I was gonna go back to Israel

and I was gonna go into the IDF, the Israel Defense Force. And I was gonna really start my career at that point. Where did that idea come from? Like, what's the genesis of that dream? Okay, well, my family is, as you know, they're all from Israel. And going back every year as a child, I knew that members, my family is, as you know, they're all from Israel. And going back every year as a child, I knew that members of my family

were involved in some kind of work that was secretive because there's members of my family that I would only see maybe for an hour once every five years or whatever. So I knew there was something secretive there that just intrigued me. And it just felt, and as I got older, I knew it was something in security.

And it was something that I felt that I needed to do, that I was born to do, that I was meant to do. And it was on my radar from, like I said, from as young as I could remember. So you had extended family members that were like Mossad agents or just people? I'm not gonna say Mossad, they were insecurity. I won't say what.

Security, quote unquote, right? Like we can't talk about it, but that's pretty romantic and intriguing for a young person to hear. Like, wow, what are they really doing? Exactly, well, yeah, it just fascinated me. Like, you know, my parents speak many different languages. So when like my uncle, when he would come in

and you know, my mother, for example, she was very close to her brothers, you know, and she didn't want my sister or I to understand they would swap languages into Russian, you know? And so I started to try and pick up as much Russian as I could to understand what the conversations that were going on, right? So it's kind of how we were brought up too, you know?

I mean, my parents never wanted us to say anything on the phone or you don't, you know, be careful who you make friends with, be careful what you tell your friends. So we kind of had that upbringing of, you know, everything is kind of a secret and keep it in the family sort of thing. Wow, so your parents,

they were associated with security in some way? If they were, they're really good at it because I don't know. You don't know. I mean, what did they do to make a living? Well, my father, he owned industries, like he was a machinist, right? So he bought into companies, you know,

as he got more successful. My mom was a registered nurse. By day. By day. But who knows what she did at night? Oh my God. But you have this idea, like, this is the path for me. I'm gonna go to Israel. Oh, absolutely. And enlist in the IDF.

But because you weren't living in Israel, you didn't have, obviously, if you're an Israeli national and you're living in Israel, you didn't have, obviously if you're an Israeli national and you're living in Israel, right? You go into the army at a certain age for a couple of years. Yeah, it's mandatory. Boys do three years, girls do two years, whether you like it or not. But you weren't under that mandatory mandate.

No, no, so I had, it's called volunteer to the army. So I went back to, I could because my parents are Israeli, right? You know, and so I immigrated, I got my Israeli passport and you know. Right, so you go to Israel at 18 and it's the IDF. Correct. Right. And typically women do like a two year tenure with this

and men do three. Correct, yes. Yeah, so walk me through the process of getting indoctrinated into the army. Okay, so for certain people, like the IDF is very sophisticated organization. Like they don't just pick you, they know everything about you

and where they're going to place you. So if they see something unique that they can use, you're gonna be isolated and put into a different department. And that's kind of where I was at, cause I think they looked at my background of where I came from. I don't look Israeli, you know? So, you know, I could work, I'd be very useful to do certain things.

I was very athletic, I was fearless. I learned very fast. And you spoke some Russian. I understood Russian. You speak Chinese also? No, no Chinese, no. Right. No Chinese. I mean, they're looking at your resume. All right, world kickboxing champion,

speaks a little Russian, is already completely bought into this. Like there's a future here. Oh, for sure. They can mold you any which way you want it because I was also very patriotic at the same time, right? So they've got somebody perfect. Yeah.

So what is the training like? Like you don't go immediately into some kind of commando special forces unit, right? Like you do- You go through a training process, it's called the selection process. So they took 350 of the soldiers that have something unique that's kind of different from the ordinary citizen,

let's say, right? So they put us through a series of training, both physically and mentally, and they keep cutting you down from that 350, it goes down to 250, then 250. And then from there, you go into a more intensive training course, right? So for me, because of my background in kickboxing,

I was world kickboxing, they wanted to put me in base eight, which was, it was a special unit space that trains commando and special units from not only in Israel, but outside of Israel as well in North America, Europe, Asia, and it's called base eight. And there's a unit there called Krav Maga.

I don't know if you've heard of that term before. So Krav Maga, it's a Hebrew, Krav means fight, Maga means hand, so lethal hand combat. So I was in that department. And when I was recruited into that department, after going through a series of tests, I was one of the first female instructors to train the commando.

So how long between you enlisting and you becoming a Krav Maga instructor? Six months of intense, yeah. I thought maybe like two years or something. No, no, no. Cause it's, but it's like intense. Like they don't let you go anywhere. Like I wasn't released to go home.

I think in that period, probably for 24 hours, they let me go to be a civilian and have a little bit of fun. Right. I think in that period, probably for 24 hours, they let me go to be a civilian and have a little bit of fun. Right, so it starts out with some kind of basic training instruction, and then it pivots into more of a special forces kind of like SEAL team situation.

Yeah, we actually skip the basic training because basic training, every soldier must learn it, how to use a Uzi and M16, certain skills like climbing a wall, rope, women, boys, girls, whatever, everyone has to learn that skill. We bypass that because we went through a testing kind of period for a week to see what we can do. And it's like an excelled like basic training program.

And then it goes into another form of training that's even more intense. So are you the first female Krav Maga instructor or one of the first? I was the first female instructor to train the commando. I see. So the command is like the Navy SEALs, you know, because what's unique about that,

it's not just, you know, you don't stand there with a clipboard. I have to do the training with them. And so they would send me on different, they'd ship me out to different locations in the country. I didn't even know where I was going to, you know, and how long I'd be for. I just knew that they'd ship me out to different locations in the country. I didn't even know where I was going to, and how long I'd be for. I just knew that they'd tell me what I need to pack and take

and then we go on special assignments and I was part of their training, I trained the soldiers. Right, and they're older, I presume. The soldiers? The soldiers that you were training. I mean, you're 18 at this point, right? Yeah, I'm 18.

Well, there are some of them, I mean, because they're recruited too. So I'm like maybe not too much older than me, during the like maybe early twenties. Right. Yeah. And what is the qualitative differences between kickboxing or Taekwondo and Krav Maga? Well, Krav Maga it's death, right?

You learn to use your hands in a deadly way, how to use a rock, a stick, a stone in a deadly way, how to learn how to kill somebody. So it's a little bit more intense. It's more for soldiers, right? You know, in war, in situations of life or death, right? Right, so less about art and more about self-defense and aggressive action when required.

Exactly. Under duress. Yes. Yeah. And so how long were you in the IDF then? Correct. When required. Exactly. Under duress. Yes. Yeah. And so how long were you in the IDF then? I was an instructor with the IDF for, with that department for about a year. And then I transitioned to work with the police force shortly after that.

And during that time, I mean, were you, so you're deployed to train other commandos, but you weren't sort of deployed as a commando yourself. No. On secret missions and stuff like that. No, no. I did certain missions with the military, but not as a commando, right? I couldn't, I didn't have the physical strength

to do what they needed to do, right? You know what I mean? I mean, it's a very difficult, like, you know, like commando soldiers, I'll just give you an example. They go through like almost two years of training and maybe 5% will make it. It's that intense. Like some of those guys will crack three hours

before they graduate. It's that intense. That's our job to make them feel like nothing and to bring them to their lowest, right? So, I mean, I couldn't have done, you know what I mean? I was a trainer, but to be realistic with you, I couldn't have been a commando soldier by any means. Right, but it seems like

he could have been a pretty good spy. I could have been, yeah. Maybe I was. Maybe you are. Maybe you are right now. Maybe I am. Yeah, no one knows, right? I mean, because you don't look typically Israeli and you speaking English without an accent

and all those sorts of things, right? It's interesting that they didn't position you into that. I mean, that's the James Bond dream, right? Well, I mean, you can wanna be a spy, but it's not up to you, it's up to them. Right. You know what I mean? You would seem to be a top candidate.

They didn't recruit you for that? I'm not gonna say they didn't recruit me. I went through a series of training. You're gonna I mean? You would seem to be a top candidate. They didn't recruit you for that? I'm not gonna say they didn't recruit me. I went through a series of training. You're getting cagey now. I think there's a lot more going on here. Maybe. Than you're willing to talk about. But you'll never know, right?

Yeah, I guess. I mean, who knows, right? You can only speculate. But you, okay, so then you transitioned into this police force. And is that, I mean, is that, what does that look like in terms of like how we think about police in the United States

or North America? It's completely different. I mean, the police and the military work together because the crimes of Israel are very different than the crimes that happened in North America. We have to deal with terrorism. That's our biggest threat, right? So I wasn't exactly in the police force.

I was in a unit called the Belouche and the Belouche is a spying agency, but I did go through like the police training, like the academy, like, again, a more intense, faster, kind of to get me through there. But I had so much skill from the military that I didn't have to do the basic training of the police academy.

Right, so it's kind of an anti-terrorism unit. Correct. Right. And in's kind of an anti-terrorism unit. Correct. Right, and in that context, I mean, what was the day to day like? Like what are you deployed to do? It depends every day. Was it intelligence or was it boots on the ground? It was intelligence,

more internal intelligence inside the country. It depends if we were after a terrorist, if we're going into the territories, we are disguised a lot, you know, it depends if we were after a terrorist, if we're at, we're going into the territories, we are disguised a lot, you know, you're very isolated. I was positioned in different parts of the country. I didn't, you know, you can't associate her with other people and, you know, even if like say you and I work under aliases and stuff like that.

Right, so there's some James Bond in there. A little bit of James Bond. And how many people were in your unit? In the Belouche unit, there was only myself, I was the only woman, and then there was, I think, five other guys. Yeah, and can you kind of talk about what a typical mission might look like?

I mean, we would do a lot of surveillance, you know, if we had to capture someone, like to kidnap someone or whatever, you know, to bring them into Israel from the territories, that kind of stuff, you know, if we had to capture someone, like to kidnap someone or whatever, you know, to bring them into Israel from the territories, that kind of stuff, you know? So it's- That's pretty heavy. And you're like 19 at this point?

I'm young, yeah, I'm 20. Wow. Yeah, because mind you too, like to get into the Belouche, like that particular unit, you need three to four years of police experience to even be considered. And they recruited me after four months. So that was a big jump, but that was kind of what I wanted.

That was, like I said, you don't ask to be a spy. They come after you. So they watch you, they know everything about you. They see how you are, how you act with other people, how much you can take, what your behavior is like when you see certain things. So it's a process. Yeah, so when you watch spy movies

or Hollywood's version of what kind of international espionage and intelligence looks like, based on your experience, like what aspects of that are legitimate or look real and what is kind of nonsense compared to, you know, what you've seen yourself? Well, I mean, we don't have flying cars or things like that, right? Sure, but I mean like more grounded kind of

LaCroix type, you know. I mean, the reality is, is that you see things that most people don't see, you know, I mean, you can be working with somebody today and then tomorrow they're gone, like something. So it's dangerous. And I didn't realize what exactly how dangerous it was till I was like 30 years old,

when I actually started feeling scared and a bit paranoid. Cause you almost have to go in, cause if you are afraid, even in inkling, then you can't do that type of job, right? But it's that dangerous, right? Of what we're doing and the risk that we're taking. But you don't think that type of job, right? But it's that dangerous, right? You know, of what we're doing and the risk that we're taking. But you don't think that way.

You just have a mission and you're expected to do it no matter what it takes. If you're that patriotic and that's what they expect from you. That's why it takes a unique personality or person to be able to do that, just to put your life on the line going, you know what, I have a mission to do

no matter what happens. And you did that for like 10 years then? Almost 10 years. Correct. Yeah. That's gotta be challenging, right? Especially in terms of like maintaining relationships with people.

There is no relationship. Yeah, you can't be tied to anybody, right? I mean, I'd also be like, you know, like I worked with a lot of, my partners had wives and children. I would be terrified if I had a child because of the nature of the work. It's worse when something happens to your loved ones

than it happens to you, right? So being single and independent and my family being way, way out there and not having anyone write me letters or even when I was talking with my parents, I wanted to keep it as rare as possible and even to leave the country as little as possible. It for me, just from the experience that I saw,

it kept me, it felt, I've just felt safer that way. Yeah, your parents knew what you were doing on some level though. To a degree, I think my mom knew more than my father. Uh-huh, yeah, what was their perspective? Not great, well, my mom for sure, she was all for it, right? But my father was afraid because he knew people that,

I mean, when I came back to Canada very briefly, we had a private conversation and he just said that, you know, he knew people that escaped that kind of work that they left, you know, because it just, and I guess tried to scare me out of it, but it didn't matter what anyone said. I knew what I was gonna do and I was gonna do it no matter what.

Yeah, and did you feel like you were fulfilling that James Bond dream? To a degree, yes, I messed up once. I think I spoke when I shouldn't have. And so, I mean, I was in a process of getting recruited. I'm not saying to what organization, you know what I mean? But it was probably the most elite. The one that I'm thinking of right now?

Yeah, the one that you're thinking of right now. And it was a series of six months. I was going through a series of mental and physical tests. And I didn't know, I didn't ask any questions. They just, I just get these notices or calls. You're gonna be at this address at this time in Tel Aviv or in Haifa or in Jerusalem or whatever, you just show up and you don't say anything, you do whatever you're supposed to do.

And then you leave and you don't know if you're gonna get a call or not gonna get a call. And you don't know why you're being dispatched. You kind of know why, but you just don't know what's happening or what's gonna come next. I mean, at one point I had waited a month and then I got another notice, right?

So it's that kind of process. And then kind of at the end of that, I called my uncle because I wanted to ask him what the heck is going on, right? And that was a mistake. Your uncle being part of intelligence? Perhaps. Okay, right. I'm trying to just understand this.

So basically you spoke out of school, you weren't supposed to say anything and just by having a conversation. Oh yeah, I mean, as soon as I, we sat down actually on a table, very similar to this. It was a picnic table outside in a little village called the Fula. And even before I opened my mouth, he just shook his head.

And then I said, okay, I just messed up. And it was very difficult. Cause remember this was my- Because you should never broach any of this. Nothing, you don't say anything to anyone. So you were immediately flagged as a security risk? I think so to a degree, like, you know, can't keep your trap shut.

You know what I mean? But, and so, but you know, you're young and I was so excited and eager and just want to know what was going on. And if I was gonna be recruited and I was willing to do anything. So it was a blow, it was a hard blow for me. It had to be kind of romantic and exciting,

but also terrifying. And I'm just curious about what it would feel like to be in a situation where you know you're being watched all the time. Like that's gotta feel oppressive. Like knowing everything that you say, everything that you're doing is being watched all the time. Like that's gotta feel oppressive. Like knowing everything that you say, everything that you're doing is being observed and analyzed.

Well, I mean, I think it's for the security, right? If you go, if you choose to do that kind of work, they have to know, you know, perhaps you're a double agent, who knows, they don't know who you are. Like why would a Canadian girl, they live in a great country, come to Israel and wanna do a work like what the hell, you know what I mean?

You've been planted there. Exactly, like what, that doesn't make any sense. And that's why I was interviewed maybe 50 times. Like, you know, what's wrong with you? So there's suspect. Well, I mean. And also you're like the only woman, right? Yeah, well, I mean, exactly.

So what was that like? That was tough for sure. I had my challenges. I had to be even better than everyone else because I was a woman. Cause if I had a bad day, it wasn't because I had a bad day, it was because I was a woman, right?

So you think about that pressure of always being on top of your game, having eyes in the back of your head and yeah, it's a lot of pressure. What was your kind of specific skillset? Like what was your strength in that capacity? I'm kind of like a chameleon. I can be in places, not, you know,

be in a place and not be known or seen or whatever. And I could good at getting information, you know. It's funny, cause I'm not a super social person, but if I need to socialize and talk to someone in an acting scenario, I can do it. I'm really good at it, right? You know, so that kind of stuff. I mean, a lot of times too, going into like a good example

is going into the territories, when you were going into a house and then there's a Muslim woman there, when they see a woman come in, it kind of diffuses the situation and makes them a little bit more relaxed. So yeah, it was just, it depends. Yeah, I suspect you have great situational awareness.

Like you're trained to walk into a room and notice everything and kind of be aware of where everyone's standing and assess everybody's motivations. That's a big part of the training though. Like we know, I mean, when I was being trained into the Belush, we'd go down like in Hadera or another village and one of the agents

would point to different people and Muslim, Israeli, Russian, what nationality, you know what I mean? Or like me and you having a conversation, listening to the people behind us, what they're saying. So kind of being aware. And a lot of times when we were in the police car, they'd purposely put the radio on really loud

because we always have to hear communication and I'd put it down. They go, no, no, no, you have to learn to focus your energies in different areas, even being distracted, right? Which is really hard for me. You know, like if I blare on the music right now and you and I have a conversation, it's gonna be tough. Yeah. To focus, right?

You know. And what was the physical training like? The physical actually, that actually came easy to me. Right, because I was, I mean, I- I'm curious about how that plays into the cycling career, which we're gonna get into in a little bit. Right, well, remember I, we didn't talk about this, but in the military, I was actually introduced to the bike

by a Lieutenant from the commando. He was the national champion in the sport of triathlon. And he knew what I was doing, right? You know, I mean, to a degree, but he always saw me training. So when I wasn't training troops, I was training myself, right? You know, I mean, to a degree, but he always saw me training. So when I wasn't training troops, I was training myself, right? You know, through the obstacles

and what we needed to be good at in the shooting range and whatnot. So he asked me to, and I used to commute to the base on my bike. So he says, you know, let's go for a bike ride. And I really didn't want to, but I felt bad to say no. So we went on a bike ride and I was hooked. I just like fell in love with the bike.

And then he started actually coaching me and he got me into the sport of duathlons, right? And I remember my first duathlon, I was a commando soldier and I remember, you know how I warmed up for it, you know how most people would ride or run? My commander came with focus pads and I was punching. You're like shadow boxing to get ready for endurance race.

So I did the duathlon, as soon as I crossed whatever line, I didn't have a chance. And he basically threw my bike in the back of the Jeep and went back to the base. That's how I was able to do races, right? With my security team coming with me. So how did that first race go?

It was good. I actually won it. You're unbelievable. I mean, okay. Look, it's Israel, right? You know, it was a big fish in a small pond. I mean, you probably had a janky bike. I had a 20 pound tank, right? With a big hairdryer helmet, you know, back then.

And I didn't know what clipless shoes was. I had running shoes on, you know, so. So did some lights go on in that moment? Like this could be a cool thing for me to pursue? Oh, totally. I wanted any opportunity I had for training. I, we went on a bike ride, like, and then we, I started to upgrade and learn about the bike.

And I actually won my duathlons, not because it wasn't because of the running. I was a good runner, but not a great runner. It was because of the riding. And it just, I just something that I fell in love with. Yeah. And did you become like national champion in duathlon? Yes, I was.

How long between that first race and becoming Israeli national champion in duathlon? Well, remember I couldn't go to all the races because of what I was doing. I had to get special permission, but- Can't do it, I'm undercover and parts unknown. Well, they didn't say that, but you know, when there was like big races, they would give me releases.

So on the national championship, that was roughly a year later that I was able to win that race. Within a year. Yeah, within a year. But then at some point you retire from the police force and the sense that I got, I couldn't find a lot of detail on this, but the sense that I got was that

things were getting crazy dangerous and somebody in your unit was killed, right? And there was quite a looming threat concerning your life. Correct, yeah. I mean, at this point there was, I think, a couple of kidnapping attempts on me. And remember, Israel is a very small country and it's hard to hide me, you know,

especially being the only woman doing what I was doing. And there was a lot of tension in the country and at the time. And just one incident, you know, I was working the night shift with my partner and we saw a police cruiser parked on the side and two officers were sleeping with their kind of hugging their M16s,

which you can't do. It's very dangerous in the area that we were in. And we went to the car and we said, you know, what are you doing? But it's a different department. So we basically left and my partner was just yelling at them that you guys are stupid. 45 minutes later, they were assassinated

and all hell break loose in the country. And the next day too, you know, my departments gets a picture of me saying that, oh, like threats of, you know, my departments gets a picture of me saying that, oh, like threats of, you know, that I was a target. So they had to hide me at that point, right? And just knowing that I couldn't go anywhere without being fully armed or, you know, going into my car and checking underneath over whatever,

even starting my car was, my heart would start to beat and whatever, you know, is it rigged or, you know, so I started to become paranoid and afraid. And so I said, you know, is it rigged or, you know, so I started to become paranoid and afraid. And so I said, you know, I need to transition. And honestly, the only thing that really made me feel alive and the only thing I wanted to do at that time was be a pro racer, you know,

cause I felt like I was good enough to do it. I was winning races. I was winning races against men. But remember, I'm in a very small country, not really knowing what real competition is. But time's up in terms of your safety and you got to pull the escape hatch. Well, yeah, they couldn't hide.

What do you think can hide me? Right, I mean, I was transferred now into the headquarters to train high officials, like officers and whatnot, but I felt like I was a trainer and that's not what I was, what I had signed up for. I wanted to work the field, but you know, so I basically, to make a long story short, I made a deal with them to work on assignment if needed,

you know, outside of the country, which allowed me to come back to North America and then I could train full-time as a cyclist. So what year was that? Oh my goodness. It would be in the 80s, late 80s. Late 80s, right. And you're like 30 at the time?

I'm 30, yeah. So you moved back to Canada. Correct, right. And you're like 30 at the time. I'm 30, yeah. So you moved back to Canada. Correct, yeah. And you get on the bike. I get on the bike. Right. Thinking that I got this. Was it duathlon at the time

or just I'm gonna be a cyclist? I want to be a pro racer. You wanna be a pro cyclist. Pro cyclist. So how do you even begin to pursue that? Well, for one, it was a hard transition. You know, you think about the life that I'm just leaving to become a normal, like, you know, citizen, right? So it took a bit of time for that, you know?

And you hadn't spent, you know, decades riding your bike around, like coming up in the traditional sense. You're 30 at this point and you're like, I'm gonna be a pro cyclist. And people thought I was insane. Like what the hell? Like even like the president of the National Canadian Cy team or the federation, I should say,

right. He says, you know, you're nuts. You're, you've missed the boat. You're too old. You can't sprint very well. Your mentality is, I mean, he didn't know me, right. You know? And they basically shunned me off. So I had to prove to them, you know, that even though I was 30, which is basically the end of a lot of careers in cycling. And here I am wanting to start it, that I have this and I can do this sport on a national, international level. So how did you plead your case? I had to go out there and show them who I was.

And I'm telling you, it was embarrassing because I mean, in the first part of pro racing, I excelled very fast to, you know, it's got categories, right? But when you hit the pro level of whatever racing, I mean, I would go into these races and I was relying on my fitness, but cycling is very much like a chess game.

You have to think three moves before you make your own move. It's not a matter of who's the strongest, it's who's the smartest, right? And I'd go into these races and I'd come in so last that I wouldn't even know where the finish was. I'd see my car in an empty parking lot, okay, yeah, this must be it. Yeah.

You know. So you go from being kind of a big fish in a small pond to immediately realizing that the pond is quite large. Yeah, I'm a shrimp in an ocean now. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So how do you bridge that gap? I just, well, at this point, like I'm now 38 years old, right?

And I'm kind of making myself sound worse than what I was, but I was racing for a pro team, a US pro team. And I was at a big race in Redlands, California. And I heard a team director talking about a rider. Remember I'm 38 now, right? But what happened between 30 and 38? I'm struggling. I'm wanting to be- But you're staying in it.

I'm staying in it because- So for eight years, you're trying to become this pro cyclist. You bet. Unsuccessfully. Because I never quit anything in my life, right? And I'm determined to get there. I mean, also in contrast to like, hey, listen, every sport I sign up for,

I'm the world champion within months. Right. So this is a humbling. Oh, totally. Change of pace. It was completely something I'd never experienced before, but a good lesson though, right? But in honestly, like I was saying, I was at a race and a team director was talking about a rider. And he

basically said, when the road goes up, she drops down, which means he's referring to climbing, right? And those five words that I'd never forget to the day I die is Goldstein, it's my last name, can't climb, we're shit. And everyone starts laughing, not just him, but other directors and coaches and other riders and whatnot. And it was at that moment that I said, you know what? I'm gonna show you guys exactly what I can't do, right? And I basically, in that one year, I hired a climbing coach. I moved to like from Vancouver to Vernon, which is more hilly, bike friendly location.

I dropped about 10 pounds. And I came back the following season at 38 years old, not only winning hilly races, but setting new records. So it was that transition that fast, right? At 38, competing against women who are probably 10 years your junior. Oh, wait, oh yeah. Yeah.

You need somebody to just follow you around and tell you you can't do stuff. I know, that's what I'm saying. You should pay somebody to do that. It's the best thing. I love it when people say I can't do things. But I, wow, I didn't realize there was an eight year period of just kind of utter humiliation

and staying in it and struggling. It was a tough go. It was really, really tough. And there's nothing really romantic about pro cycling at that level. Like it's a grind and there's no money. Especially when you're on a team. Like, were you getting a stipend?

Were you able to support yourself or did you have a job doing something else? Well, I was smart when I was younger, I saved my money and I got into real estate very young. When I left Israel, I came back to Canada. It was more affordable back then, right? So I started to invest, you know, cause I was a saver and I was a trainer, you know,

I worked at gyms and stuff, but. So you're training like combat sports, but you're competing on the bike. Right, exactly. Yeah. Wow, that's interesting too, just from a physiological perspective, because cycling is all about just dropping as much weight

in the upper body as possible and being skinny as possible. Exactly. But like I said, though, I mean, it's very much a team sport too, pro racing, not like ultra endurance racing, right? You know, you have one rider and then you have your team that, you know, they're your domestiques and they're protecting you from the wind,

they're getting you food, they're, you know, they're chasing things down, right? So, you know, I had to learn all that. And it's a process. I think for pro racers, I think many people will agree with me that it takes about five years before you actually start getting good

and start learning, you know, what you're good at, right? You know, and then, and riding with the national team too, they sent me to Europe, which is night and day compared to North America, like the level of racing, you know? So when I came back from Europe to North America, I mean, my level had jumped two folds, right?

So backtracking a little bit though, at 38, you come back after the off season and you're a completely different rider. You're approaching it much more strategically. You've got this climbing coach and you have these breakthroughs. I presume that then garners the notice of these team directors and how do you kind of progress

through the ranks at that point? Oh my God, at that point, I mean, I was, I could have gone to any team. Like, you know what I mean? The difference was that drastic. It was that drastic. I mean, even doing it as a one woman team and showing them what I could do, right?

But I don't know if you know that when I reached the peak kind of at that point where opportunities were handed to me, I had the mother of all crashes in Cascade and where I wanted to kind of prove myself on a more international field where there were teams from the Ukraine and Russia and Kirsten Armstrong from the United States was there. And so I want to see if I could really climb

against the best riders in the world. And so I wanted to see if I could really climb against the best, you know, riders in the world. And so I went to that particular race and I knew on the first, that first stage, there was a long climb that they would take off and they took off. And I could, I was the only rider in that Peloton, whatever that could hold that kind of, you know, that really fast pace up the climb.

But then, you know, you start descending and on those bikes, you can go very fast, almost up to, you know, what is it? 100 kilometers an hour, 80 miles an hour. And as we're descending, other riders are starting to come up and I'm seeing like 85, 86. And then there's a rider kind of coming

on my left-hand side. And, you know, there's a center line rule and she kind of leans into me and at 80 kilometers an hour, I land on my face. So I basically lips off instant facelift. Right, your whole face peeled off. Yeah, I mean, I broke almost 20 bones in my body. The friction of the fall burned off

the first layer of skin. It was a nightmare. I mean, I shouldn't be sitting here today based on that crash, right? So that was 2005, right? Prior to that, you had gone on this like tear winning a bunch of races, right? Prior to that, you had gone on this like tear winning a bunch of races, right? Like between, you won like nine out of 11 races

leading up to that Cascade Classic. So you were in a pretty great position in terms of really making a stamp on the pro circuit. Absolutely. Although you'd had another, you were in a position to make the 2004 Olympic team, but you had another crash, right? That kind of took you out of contention for that.

Yeah. And then you come back from that, you don't make the Olympic team because of that crash, but the Cascade Classic is really gonna be this moment to shine. Well, the Cascade Classic was kind of, I mean, it was gonna be after that race that I was gonna make my decision of,

okay, where am I gonna make my breakthrough kind of riding career? But being in that position, I mean, it was gonna be after that race that I was gonna make my decision of, okay, where am I gonna make my breakthrough kind of riding career? But being in that position, I mean, they basically told me that your career is over. Your ability to walk properly without a walker or a cane will be very limited. And then 100% you won't be back on your bike again. And that's what I was left with as I was lying there in the trauma unit.

Right, so I believe, correct me if I'm wrong, like Velo News dubbed this crash like the most epic crash of all time. Correct, at that time, correct, yes. Is it on film? The crash? Yeah. No, I don't think so.

I don't think they filmed the, I mean, there was, they did articles on it, right? We have pictures of the after a surgery stuff, right? There was big write-ups on it, but I don't think it was filmed. So you went down at like somewhere between 60 and 80 miles an hour. Correct, yeah.

On a descent. With everybody else falling on top of me. All your teeth, your lips. Yeah, arm dislocated. You can't tell looking, did you have to have like a lot of plastic surgery? Oh yeah, I had lots of surgery done around. I mean, I'm still kind of numb on my right side here.

There is a difference. If you look at my younger pictures, my face to what it is now, there is a little bit of a difference. Right. Skin shorn off your torso. And you were told that you might not walk properly again. Correct, I mean, I broke my,

both my ischium was shattered, my hips were broken, my arms, I mean, I broke my, both my ischium was shattered, my hips were broken, my arms, I mean, fingers and toes busted, right? I was taking a pretzel and basically stepping on it, right? And I can't even explain to you the worst pain I'd ever been through. Everything hurt all the time, breathing, blinking, people opening and closing the door,

the wind from that, right? It was a tough go. Wow, how long were you in the hospital? Well, well, they couldn't move me out of the United States for I think four weeks. And then they transferred me to, cause I had to be airlifted from the crash to St. Charles and Bend, Oregon. And then my sister came to pick me up

cause I couldn't, I was gonna take a big process to drive me back to Canada. Cause also getting expensive cause medical is expensive here, right? Sure. So, okay, so months in the hospital. Yes. But you have the gift of these doctors telling you

you're not gonna walk again, let alone get on a bike and ever race again, right? So what do you do with that information? You know what I said to them in my head. I won't say it on air. I mean, how do you begin the rehab process? Well, listen, the only thing I could do was contract my abs.

That was the only physical thing I could do, right? But I basically made a promise to myself and I said, I don't care how long it takes or the kind of pain I'm gonna go through. I'm gonna get back on that bike. I'm gonna race again. And I'm gonna come back even stronger than I did before all this happened, right?

And I think it happens to a lot of people when you're faced with this overwhelming situations, you don't know what to do. So you kind of buckle, right. You know, so I knew I had a lot of work cut out for me, but I think everything is upstairs. It's what you believe in and what you make your body believe that you can do. Right. You know, because honestly, if I believed everything that I was told, even growing up, then I wouldn't, again, I wouldn't be sitting here today. Right. But we all have our breaking points too.

We do. But your ability to kind of compartmentalize all of that and just focus on, okay, I can do this. Like how much of your military training comes into play in terms of having the mental rigor to just block out the fear and focus on the task at hand. Well, I think the military has a lot to do with it because it was part of their job,

even during my military training to crack us mentally as best as they can, right? Cause mental strength is much more powerful than physical strength, we all know that. But for me, like at that point, going back to the hospital, I mean, how can they say something like that? I haven't even started my rehab. You know what I mean?

Just to make that kind of prediction that fast, right? You know, and I think that's the thing is that we're so quick to take, you know, the easy way out, right? You know, without being more optimistic of the things that we possibly can do, you know, and the possibilities of just going after the things that you believe in.

Cause sometimes you're not gonna get support from other people. You're gonna have to believe in yourself. And that's the thing is we're so influenced by other sources. But for me, I never was, never has been, never will be. What I wanna do and what I'm determined to do, I'll make it happen.

I'll find a way to make it happen. Right. So make it happen. I'll find a way to make it happen. Right, so make it happen you did. Like how long was the rehabilitation before you could get back on a bike? I was back on my bike race ready in less than a season. So like- Eight months. Eight months, wow, wow.

And I was really skinny because I had my, my lips had to be sewn back on so I couldn't eat anything, right? I was, so I was climbing like a fiend, right? Yeah, so how long before you could walk properly, like take me through the stages? Well, I mean, okay, well, it was tough. I mean, I had a lot of rehab on my own.

I was in a wheelchair, you know? So I remember asking my mom to drop me off at like a running track and I had one arm that I, and my ankle, my left ankle, which I can't move very well. And so I just wheel around the track as much as I can. And then I'd start using more, but mobility- In a wheelchair. Yeah, in a wheelchair. But mobility was really important. It's getting those muscles strong. Again, it hurt like a son of a gun, right? But every day, I was better than the day before

and just staying positive. And honestly, I sort of got being in that positive mode. I could feel things starting to bind. Cause when I went to get re x-rayed at the general hospital in Vancouver, a couple of months later, they were floored at how fast I was recovering. And you attribute that to just being in motion. I think motion and mentally, you know what I mean?

And just determined that I am gonna get out of this. Yeah, so from the wheelchair, then like, how do you, I mean, are you walking with a limp? Like how is- Oh yeah, no, it goes from wheelchair to a one crutch. Right. You know what I mean? Bopping away.

And then, I mean, it was even wheelchair to wheeling to my trainer, which was on a bike, whatever. And it took me like 40 minutes just to get from the wheelchair, just to sit and which was on a bike, whatever. And it took me like 40 minutes just to get from the wheelchair, just to sit and be comfortable on the bike because it was the flashbacks that was haunting me and that was kind of delaying my process, right? Yeah, when you say you were race ready

or back on the bike and ready to race eight months later, that doesn't account for the kind of mental trauma of the recurring like imagery of like crashing at that kind of speed, right? And pro cycling, you have to be absolutely fearless. Oh my gosh, yeah. I mean, how do you ever descend aggressively again after that experience?

Far away from the Peloton. How could you ever overcome that? Yeah, like there's no way, cause the edge that you have to ride in order to be competitive at the elite level is to really embrace that fearlessness. Right, and that's funny because that's why a lot of the races I did,

I tried to get into breakaways where I wasn't with like early before. Yeah, just right off the front at the beginning. Or on the climbs just take off so I don't have to descend with anyone. That might work like one out of every 20 races, right? But most of the time, then you end up getting completely destroyed.

Yeah, I mean, for sure. I mean, that was the hardest thing. I mean, with ascending, climbing was easy for me, right? It was the descending that was really, I mean, I'd be breaking all the time. And my climbing coach that I hired earlier to make me this great climber, he was now coaching me to descend

without having this fear because you can't race having that kind of fear and there is a risk. And with that fear, you become a hazard to the other riders. Absolutely, yeah, yeah. But mind you too, I mean, I was kind of like when we were descending, I would kind of veer off to the side a little bit more, gave myself more space,

try to stay at the front as much as possible. And I realized too, like after that crash, I mean, I had great years the next three years after, but I couldn't afford to crash. Cause you know, I think two years after that, I was hit by the car in Redlands, right? Oh, I don't know about that. Yeah, it was actually one of my,

close to my last year of racing in a Criterium was a Redland stage race. And you know, we were warming up for the crit and I was coming back to the team car and this lady in a Hyundai who was texting, she was going like 80 kilometers an hour, 50 miles an hour or whatever. And she hits me from the rear of the bike

and ejected me off my bike. And I landed like Superman onto the pavement and stabbed both my hands, I had two compound fractures. You know, I go, oh shit, here we go again. So what are you like, at this point, 40 something? I'm now 40, 42, yeah. And so I had retired that. I said, I can't do this anymore.

Were you the oldest rider on the Peloton? No, no, no, Jeannie Longo, longer, you know, most decorated athlete, right? You know, she was older. Linda Jackson was in there too. So there was more. I mean, I think women push the envelope a little bit more than the men, you know, with racing. So, but I was, I mean, I think women push the envelope a little bit more than the men, with racing.

So, but I was, I mean, I had planned to kind of transition into ultra endurance racing during that time, but that was just, yeah, the accident was- Because no crazy descents, I know I have the mental fortitude for something like this. I don't crack easily. Like this could be something to pursue. While you're racing, you're starting to think about that? Well, I mean, I don't crack easily. Like this could be something to pursue. While you're racing, you're starting to think about that?

Well, I mean, I think the reality is, is that I had crashed. I mean, that's not the only crash you have. When you're a pro racer, you crash multiple times. I broke my back in France when I was there, right? And multiple crashes where I cracked my helmet, right? I mean, I think to the safety of me, like, I mean, there's life after cycling, right?

You know, and I just, it just felt like a right time to transition because I really wanted to do ultra endurance racing, which is a lot safer in that regards, right? You know, and so it just, I didn't make it there without that last. Right, so after that crash or where the car hit you in Redlands,

that was like the final moment, like I'm done. Correct, yes. Done being a pro racer. So what happens? You go back to Canada and start to hatch some plan to become... Well, the plan was race across America. I mean, I remember watching that and saying, okay, I'm gonna do that

before I retire completely from cycling, right? Because the goal was, I mean, I just felt like I would, I would be more gifted. I was more gifted for ultra endurance racing based on my ability to ignore pain, push myself beyond my limits and to be functional with very little sleep. Right.

That's military training. Yeah, walk me through the military training around sleep deprivation. Oh my goodness. Because this is like a superpower that you have. Well, I mean. I'm sort of of the mind that you can develop mental fortitude around it,

but it's also not something you can, can you truly train it? Like in my experience, cause I've tried to practice it. And then when you get to the event and you need to rely on it, it doesn't really work. Yeah. Like practicing it doesn't make it any easier.

No, I think from what I understand that either you have it or you don't, that you can't, that's something you can't train. I don't know. That's based on research. There are some people who are just constitutionally wired to be like, when you hear these legendary stories of some of the Ram racers over the years,

like Yuri Robic and all these people who could literally just sleep an hour a night and seem to churn it out, no problemo. It's not no problemo, but it comes with challenges, right? Like you hallucinate really bad and stuff, right? But yeah, your body, you just become like a potato. You don't know what's real, what's not real. Like a lot of time with sleep deprivation

during Race Across America, I didn't know what I was doing on the bike, right? Because I too cut my sleep to 90 minutes. But you had experience with that. Like in military training, they're probably waking you up in the middle of the night. Like in military training, they're probably waking you up in the middle of the night all the time. Oh, they're not even waking up, you're awake.

You know, there's no way I'm waking you up. You know, I mean- But there's a lot of mind games in the training, right? Oh yeah, I mean, I remember once training, we had a really hard trek. It was through the night, right? We finished the trek after I think nine or 10 hours. We come back to our base, our barracks or whatever. The commander says, okay, you guys can rest. We'll give you four hours and then we're back at it, right? We finished the truck after, I think, nine or 10 hours. We come back to our base, our barracks or whatever.

The commander says, okay, you guys can rest. We'll give you four hours and then we're back at it, right? So we're, oh, thank God. And I'm thinking, you know what? This is too good to be true. If he says that, you know that's not gonna be it. And so he leaves. And then 30 seconds later, another guy comes in,

opens the lights, he gets your stuff back on. We're heading back out again. So that's the kind of stuff that they, you know what I mean? And people are crying and screaming. That's very instructive for ultra endurance. Yeah, exactly. So it was, that was, I mean, if something sounds too good to be true,

you know it's not gonna happen, right? So you're going into this idea around RAM with a very specific set of skills. I mean, there are other, like some of these Eastern European guys who've raced RAM, I think are all are military officers, right? Some of the great guys over the years. So it's not a new thing that somebody with your discipline

and background would be interested in this, but you are coming into it with this pro cycling career, plus the military training. I mean, you're positioned well for it. I'm positioned well mentally for it, absolutely. Right, I mean, I think that has a lot, the benefits of that. But even in pro racing, I mean, always better in longer races, I got stronger later.

Again, I could stay awake. And so I just thought things that were extended and longer, and my ability to recover really fast too, was another asset that I had. So I just felt like it was more suited for me again, ultra endurance racing. Yeah, so the first time you do, you've done RAM three times, right?

So what was the first year was 2011? Correct. Yeah. So talk to me about how you transitioned your training to prepare for that. Well, I mean- It's a very different thing. I didn't know what I was doing. I didn't hire a coach or whatever. So I just knew I had to stay on my bike

and ride it nonstop. And so what I did is I just self-trained and even my crew, none of us did it before. We didn't know what we were getting into. So I would train multiple, like at three in the morning or six in the morning or 12 at night. So just to train my body

and I thought I knew I was doing it. I basically come to the line, at that point I thought in the best shape of my life, right? But race across America is a different animal. Like it's something you can't, it's really hard to describe in words, right? You know, because remember you have 12 days to get your body across the country.

So, you know, a lot of things happen during that time. It's not a matter of if, but when, you know, your back, neck, knee, constipation, diarrhea, swelling, and you have to have a crew that knows what they're doing navigational wise, keeping you when, you know, your back, neck, knee, constipation, diarrhea, swelling, and you have to have a crew that knows what they're doing navigational wise, keeping you safe, you know, knowing the terrain, knowing when there's a bike change. So, you know, we kind of went in there completely green. Yeah, we should probably explain for people

that are listening or watching, who don't know what RAM is. RAM is a cycling race that began like 40 years ago, 39 years ago. Yeah like 40 years ago, 39 years ago. 39 years ago, correct. That entails riding your bike across the country on a pre-designated route. You begin in Oceanside, California, you end up in Annapolis.

Is it the same route every year? Do they ever switch it up at all? No, it has the last, they do switch up. The first RAM was I started up Northmore, went through a different train, but a little bit shorter, less climbing, but the last, I'm gonna say 10 years, it's been the Annapolis.

The same route, right? And you can do, there's a solo division where people like yourselves just do it the way they wanna do it. And then there are relay divisions, which is different. And that's super interesting too. And the way that the relays decide how to configure their rotation,

whether they're gonna do six hour shifts or 30 minute shifts, it's super fascinating. But in any event, the idea is you ride your bike across the country and you can sleep as much as you want, or you can sleep not at all, it's completely up to you. You're supported by a crew that follows you, that supports you, that feeds you. And that's gotta be an unbelievably rigorous job.

And there are legendary stories of people who have attempted this, who have succeeded at doing this. And they are tales of woe and tears and hallucinations and I mean, like the drama is unbelievable, right? Oh, even with, and don't forget too, you got 12 days to do it. So when you say you can sleep as much as you want, not necessarily, right?

Because if you sleep as much as you want. 12 days ain't that much. I mean, in a 48 hour period, it's either zero to three hours, but most people, every like, you always go through the first night. So you're gonna ride about the first 40 hours nonstop. And then you'll go into your sleep cycle of every 24 hours

from like 90 minutes to three hours, I'm gonna say is usually the time. And your sleep schedule evolved through the experience of these three races before you kind of figured out what works best for you. Yeah, I mean, you learn something. I mean, that was a total learning curve the first time, right?

You know, also I got the condition of Shermer's neck. Yeah, I wanna talk about, we're gonna spend a lot of time talking about that. So it was even more of a challenge. So that's the thing, like the neck gives out because you can't hold your eight to 10 pound head up in that position for that amount of time without it giving out.

And people's necks just can't sustain their heads and their heads end up resting on their hands, basically on the handlebars and it becomes very perilous. I mean, yeah, I mean, I didn't even know what Schirmer's neck was. I mean, when we started Race Across America in 2011, I mean, I basically started the race like a jackass. I went out there like a bat out of hell,

riding like I was a pro racer, right? And I was good for three days. Just blasted off through the desert in California. Yeah, and on day like two and a half, I thought, okay, I was on record breaking pace. Like, okay, I can sustain, this is hard, but everything's good. But then eventually, and Schirmer's neck happens

on like a slow onset. It's fast, right? Then all of a sudden I was having a hard time like keeping my head up, right? Because our neck isn't positioned or built to hold our head up. It's there to support it, right? Not to hold it, right?

So I couldn't turn my head anymore. And then all of a sudden within three hours of the first pain that kind of shot down my back into my buttocks area, my head completely dropped. So my chin is now resting on my chest. You can't lift your head. I cannot, I cannot turn it. How many days in were you?

Two and a half days. Like, you know, and so in order to ride the bike now, like you said, I'm holding my head, my chin under the palm of my hand. The other arm is steering, braking and trying to control the bike, right? And so my crew members are saying, oh my God, we're not even a quarter of the way

into the race, we're gonna have to pull out. You can't ride across the country. And I remember saying, you know what? I've never quit anything in my life. I don't care if I have to crawl across, come up with something, we're gonna make it across. So my crew is creative, right? They're really creative.

They came up with different apparatuses. You know, one was like a PVC pipe thing, whatever with the sling underneath. I've seen lots of videos of that. You have this PVC pipe going down your back and then you literally like tape it to your forehead. You look like you just got out of the spinal ward, you know, at the hospital, like it's insane.

Yeah, but none of those, another one was a big, like an arm coming off your handlebars, kind of like a, that you can rest your chin on. Right, that seems dangerous. So, but what worked for me that I still use in all my rounds, it's gonna sound kind of crazy. So in every round,

I basically shave my hair from year to year. That's why my hair is a little bit short here. And then with the remainder of hair that's on the top of my head, my crew chief will take tensor bandage. She'll French braid it into three sections on the top of my head. She'll pull my head back

and she'll tie it to the back of my heart rate monitor. So kind of like a bubble, whatever. Right, like you in the later races, you actually wove cloth into those braids, right? So you could pull it down. Correct, yeah. And then you anchor it to your heart rate monitor strap on the back.

Yep, yep. But that strap is, I mean, that strap would have to be pretty tight, right? It's pretty tight, right? But I start with that now too, right? I don't wait till it gets really bad because I think they said that Shurmur's neck's really prone to people

who have suffered from whiplash or injury crashes. So, and it's usually- With all your crashes. Yeah, from I think the crashes that I've had in the past. And yeah, that's how I got across the country. I mean, it was, I'm gonna tell you, it was the worst pain I'd ever suffered through because your muscles are so tight and it's so tense. I mean, we had to rotate a leave Tylenol and Advil

just to control the pain. And I'd be throwing up off the side of the bike because of the pain. It was- But then with the weird contraption that you have, doesn't it feel like your hair is getting pulled out of your head the whole time? Absolutely, it feels like,

I'll tell you to go run, I'll grab you by the hair, but you keep running, right? That's what it feels like. But I mean, what else are you gonna do? Nothing else worked, right? And otherwise I can't see the road. I see there, I get my hair pulled or, you know, I crash. So 2011, you figure it out and you finish it. But that was really just an education

in what this experience was all about. I mean, I still won the race, you know, I mean, I didn't set any records or anything. And then I- You won the women's female division. Correct, yes. Solo. And then at that point,

I was done living out of my bags. I was pro racing for so many years, then Ram was kind of, then I was just ready to take a break. So I actually- How dare you? Yeah, I know, I know. So I took it- You haven't taken a break your whole life.

I know, just from- You're like, what are you, 42, 43 at this point? Or 2011, yeah, you're probably 41? 42, yeah, 42. And so then I just wanted to, I just needed a mental break, whatever. And so then I ended up writing the book and started speaking and I didn't like not do anything.

I started doing duathlons and marathons cause I'm always gonna keep active and it's important, right? And then- Are you making a living in real estate? Like how do you pay the bills? I bought, well, no, that's what I'm saying gonna keep active and it's important, right? And then- Are you making a living in real estate? Like how do you pay the bills? I bought, well, no, that's what I'm saying. I bought properties young when I was young and I was able to own a lot of properties.

That's nice. That's good for the training lifestyle. Oh, for sure. To have that freedom to do whatever you want was important to me. But I did, I started doing, I was with the Canadian Speaking Bureau. So I started doing presentations and just doing other things, but then I, the itch to come back to Ram and to,

to ride it better, because I think the first time you do it, it's a learning experience. And I was just determined to go after the 10 day record, right? It was just something that, but I think I just took a little bit too much time off. I took almost seven years off the bike and then I went back into the, into ultra endurance racing. Right, so the next RAM was 2019, 18? Yeah, it was on my 50th birthday. I said, I'm gonna give myself a present. 50th birthday and you had this experience, you know, under your belt.

Like, so how do you, how does that change how you prepare for the second attempt? It was hard because a lot of time had gone by, right? You know what I mean? And I think to be out of the loop for that long, but I wanted to do- And there's a big difference between 50 and 42 or 41. Yeah, I totally agree, right?

So what I wanted to do is prove to myself that I could still ride my bike. So I went into Silver State 508, the one in Nevada, and I kind of crammed in training and I ended up setting a new woman's record. And I said, okay, I can still ride my bike, right? But I think the prep going into the 2019 round, I a little bit over-trained, I a little bit over-did it.

I was too excited. And yeah, so I think we came in there, I came in there a little bit cooked. But you broke the women's record by like 12 hours. No, no, no, no. Oh, you didn't? No, not in that race. Not in that race.

No, because actually- I read that wrong then. Yeah, the 2019, no, that was raw. That was raw, the first raw in 2012, right? But in the 2019 race though, it was the hardest women's field the race had ever had. There was, I think, six Ram champions in there. So it was a race,

like right from the beginning, right to the end. So Issa and Alexandra, who's are in the younger group category from I believe Sweden and Austria were the favorite twins, but it ended up to be Daniela and I with them like 24 hours back, right? So, but a lot of things happen, you know?

And so again, I think we had issues with navigational stuff, you know, and I ended up losing by 90 minutes and that's why I had decided that I'm coming back again. 90 minutes. After all of that. I know. You were 11 plus days or something like that? No, no, 10 days.

10 days? 10 days, no, 10 days. 10 days? 10 days, yeah, 19 hours. And the record is like seven plus. No, that's for the men. I know, for the men. Like the fastest time ever recorded. The fastest time on that course,

okay, not on the course that was shorter, on that course is 10 days. Oh, it is. Yeah, it is 10 days. For men and women? No, for women. Okay, but for men, like who's the fastest he's ever done it? I believe Strausser of seven days. Oh, it is. Yeah, it is 10 days. For men and women? No, for women. Okay, but for men, like who's the fastest he's ever done it?

I believe Strausser of seven days. Yeah. Yeah, he has for that, yeah. So, because there's two different courses, right? There's a shorter course of Shannon Hogan holds that record, but they go based on average speed, right? But we're talking about just the course, but for that course, it's Nicole Reese from Sweden.

She, sorry, from Austria. She has the course record of 10 days. Right. Nicole Reese from Sweden, she, sorry, from Austria, she has the course record of 10 days. Right. To make it across on that course in 11 days, you're, just for people that are listening, like you have to be averaging at least like 12 miles an hour, including sleep for the whole thing, right?

Pretty close, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That provides a little context. Right, right. Oh yeah. Wow. So 2019, you reestablish yourself,

but also like a sense of unfinished business. Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah, it was determined. This cannot stand. Well, I mean, like I said, I just had to come back, right? I mean, I wrote down everything that, the mistakes that we made,

the mistakes that I made. What mistakes did you make? Well, for me, I was overcooked. I mean, I think I focused way too much on climbing. I mean, Ram has got a lot of climbing, but there's a lot of flats going through Kansas and Illinois and whatnot, right? You know, to work more on power,

we had to get a better navigational system because I think we probably had about two and a half to almost three hours of navigational error, which hurt us quite badly. Like going off course, you mean? Correct, yeah. And when you go off course, you have to jump back in the car,

go back to a place where you made a mistake and then start from there. So on day six, we messed up four times. And you have the same crew though. You have the same crew, yeah. I mean the same crew that you had in 2011? A little bit changes here and there, like a few people, but when there was,

there were so many detours too, because of the floods in the Mississippi, you know what I mean? And that we got notification a little bit later, but you know what, that's the nature of the race. It's Ram, it's 3000 miles. You're gonna mess up. There's always gonna be some crazy stuff.

You just wanna catch it really fast, right? So we worked on the navigational issue part for this, like for the Ram, you know, 2021 or 2022, sorry. Yeah, and then again, I came in way better, but don't forget we had the COVID year, right? Where Ram, where I was, we were all set to go. And then we got notification in April that the race was canceled,

but I continued to train like I was racing. Cause I knew the benefits would lead me into this year. To use that as a benefit. Sorry? The idea that the race got canceled rather than looking at that as a setback, like, oh, I have a whole nother year to train. That, absolutely, yeah.

So I even came back, even I could even do more to up my training even more, you know, the next, the following year, right? But yeah. Sustaining power on the flats is like, seems to be a key to success. Like, because there are so many flats, I think in cycling, you know,

climbing gets a lot of attention, people can climb well, but it's actually really hard to sustain like threshold power on flats for a long period of time. Like the level of pain that goes into that, exceeds often like what it's required to attack a climb. Yeah, absolutely. Well, for sure.

I mean, but even with climbing, like my crew chief always says, the only time you're gonna feel good in Ram is the first few days. After that, you're running off fumes, right? You know, it's mental. So you're not climbing like you're gonna climb on a timed whatever, but to hold that sustained power, like you said, on the flats, especially, you know,

when you're in Kansas and you have a headwind for 19 hours, that's more difficult than climbing Wolf Creek Pass or whatever in Colorado, that's 10,000 feet. So you really have to balance what you're gonna do and you can't neglect any element where I was only focusing on climbing in the 2011 or 2019. But this time I really balanced it out between the two. So it was much more powerful on the flats

and also bike positioning. Being aero is one thing, it's great. But if you're uncomfortable after, like staying in that aero position. Comfort is way more important. Oh, absolutely. So I worked on a better, a Rob Wright, he set me up how a Ram rider should feel.

Which is more upright, less pressure on your wrists. Absolutely. And your shoulders. Yeah, that has to be key, getting that right. And also finding the right saddle because you're gonna get saddle sores no matter what. Absolutely, oh, you bet. There's no way around it. How many saddles did you test

before you found one that was suitable? I just used my one particular saddle that just works for me. It doesn't matter what saddle, it's just comfortable. But a saddle sore is a pressure point and you're sitting on that pressure point for so long that you're gonna get it no matter what. But I think, you know, trying to prevent it

from progressing too much. So sitting in Epsom salts really fast, changing shorts as much as possible. And then in worst case scenario, you know, you have the lidocaine, right? You know, you just numb it all up. Numb it up, yeah. Oh my God, it's the worst.

It is, but you have to do what you have to do. Yeah, and it's that thing where it's the tiny things that fell the journey, right? It's the little tiny, like, oh, I have this little boil, but then it's like, it becomes your whole universe. It's on your mind. It capsizes the whole thing, right? Totally, the tiniest little thing, yeah.

Wow, what is the, sleep deprivation aspect aside, like how do you prepare mentally? And like, what are the mantras that you repeat or what is going on in your mind when you're, you know, living in that pain for such an extended period of time? Like, are you telling yourself stories? Are you just focused on your heart rate? Like what is going on in your head?

I'm focused on a number of things. Speed is a big thing, but again, it all depends on wind and terrain. If you're descending, if you're climbing, I think too, but somebody asked me that question before too, is like, when you are that uncomfortable, I think my mantra is you have to learn to be comfortable being uncomfortable.

That's Ram, right? And a lot of times when we are in pain, we focus on that uncomfortable. I think, you know, my mentors, you have to learn to be comfortable being uncomfortable. That's Ram, right? You know, and a lot of times when we are in pain, we focus on that pain. That's all we're thinking about. So I try to kind of park it and not focus on that pain. You know, I know it sounds kind of strange, but it works for me, you know, and, and thinking about the task in hand, like, what am I, what have I done to get here? The training that I've gone through and you want to get to that damn finish line, right? So stop dwelling on the things that hurt you and let's focus on what you need to do to get to your finish line.

And I think that really worked for me, you know? And just, yeah, I think preparing in the right way and knowing what I was doing prior to is a big part of, you know, of completing RAM within the 12 days. Yeah, you said you've never quit anything, but I suspect there have been moments of weakness where you were on the precipice of quitting.

Like how do you talk yourself off the ledge in those situations? Or you just don't, you don't even get there. No, of course, I mean, the only thing I have to think about is how I'll regret it and I'll just dwell on it for the rest of my life. But it's like, you've held that line. Like I've never quit anything.

So I'm not gonna start now. Like there's no, there's no fissures in that wall. Yeah, no, to me quitting should never be an option unless it's life threatening, of course. You know, that's my mantra, right? I've, you know, I don't think- I mean, there's situations in your life, I'm sure, where you were pursuing something and you realize like,

well, this is not for me, or this is not right. Like it's not really quitting, it's sort of changing directions, right? Like I think people sometimes stay in things too long. They probably should quit stuff sooner and try something else. Yeah, that's different. So how do you differentiate?

I mean, I think whatever you choose to do, you have to love it. I think people like you were saying who go to a job, they wake up in the morning and they hate what they're doing, right? I mean, I find that sad and I think life is too short. I mean, that happened to me in Israel. My dream was to be a Belushi agent

and to work for intelligence till I was gonna retire. Like, 45, you have a great pension in Israel, right? That was my dream. But I think having a purpose to what I was doing and loving what I was doing was more important for me than the ego of that job. And I think whatever you do choose to do, that you love it, that when you wake up in the morning,

you have a motivation and a desire. Cause life's too short. I mean, this is a one-time deal. This is our life. Let's make the best of it. And so that kind of is my mantras, you know, forever. Right, that's how I live my life. Right, but when you're on, you know,

hour 45 without sleep and you forget where you are and you're not sure what you're doing or what your feet are doing, like how do you maintain that focus? Like, are there tactics or strategies that you deploy to, you know, bring yourself back into your body and remind yourself why you're doing it? Like, what does that look like?

Okay, so some, like when we talk about REM, sometimes at that point, it's up to the crew to say, you know what, you need 30 minutes off the bike. When you're not moving and you're delirious and it can be dangerous where, like, I mean, at one point I was hallucinating so bad that a Panther had jumped in front of me that I veered over to the other side of the road.

So in that case, my crew is gonna stop me. That's why it's very important. They're behind me all the time and I'm radio to them. And they'll say, you know, you need 30 minutes. So your crew is your lifeline, they're your brain because you become like a puppet, right? You know, so that's why you have good communication before the race of what's gonna, you know,

what's gonna transpire if you can no longer make those rational decisions. But we all know what I'm there for. And of course, if it was life threatening or dangerous, my crew would pull me, but that's the only way that they would ever pull me. Like I said, if it wasn't safe. On the Shermer's neck thing,

you trained for the most recent RAM by wearing a weighted helmet, right? Yes. To try to strengthen those neck muscles. I did intense strength exercises with my, not only that, it's like a harness you wear over your head and it's got weighted plates. I do a lot of like reps out like that.

Yeah, like those kind of. And always, always when I'm on the trainer, I always have a one pound helmet on. You'll see I have three little plates on top of my helmet. And when I ride, I have one little plate. So I have different weights, you know? And so I always have some kind of load on my head. So when I wear the helmet, it feels like nothing.

And that does help. It's not a complete cure, but it does make your neck strength a little bit stronger for sure. Still gotta shave the head and pull that thing. Still gotta shave the head, yeah. All right, so going into the 2021 round, what was the goal? The goal was 10 days.

That was kind of the big goal. I think that in to get the women's 50 record, and make it across within the 12 days of course, and be safe. It's really hard to plan cause you don't know what you're gonna face. I actually, we went 10 days earlier for the heat to kind of to climatize to those temperatures

to break those springs. You knew it was gonna be a hot year. Well, I mean, there was a heat wave that was, we didnatize to those temperatures, to Borrego Springs. You knew it was going to be a hot year. Well, I mean, there was a heat wave that was, we didn't know what was like, it was going to be that. I don't think anybody knew, right? A week before it was like, you know, like 90 degrees in Borrego Springs, which was quite pleasant.

I have that at home, right? You know what I mean? So I, but then all of a sudden, you know, we checked the forecast and the day of the race, like, you know, when Ram started, it was about 85. And then as soon as we hit the desert, like when Ram started, it was about 85. And then as soon as we hit the desert, like four hours later, it went from 85 to 110. I mean, descending down the glass elevator,

I could feel my eyeballs burning, right? And I don't think anybody was prepared for what we were getting into this year. Yeah, and if it's 110, then the pavements probably 120. Oh my gosh, yeah. And just the reflection off the pavement, the heat is super oppressive. It was the most intense feeling I'd ever, I'd never,

I mean, even in Israel where it's very difficult and hot, you know, we'd never experienced anything like that before. Right, and the trick, the thing was the heat didn't abate. Like it wasn't just through the desert. Like it was an unprecedented heat wave for the entire experience. Entire, yeah. Even at nighttime, I mean,

the only pleasantry at night is that you didn't have the blazing sun on you, right? But it was still excruciatingly hot. You know, like it was just, I mean, in Kansas, I burned right through my Jersey. It was that intense. The heat was that intense. So with that, you have the challenge is

how do I keep my core temperature from overheating? So what strategies did you deploy with ice and the like to try to ameliorate your body just boiling over? Well, for one, the Jersey, like jerseys aren't very friendly for hot temperature. So we just used a cotton men's t-shirt, we had sliced just to keep it cool. I had like a veil so I wouldn't burn my neck.

And then in the real intense heat, it was like, it's in like an ice sock, like a long sock, like a scarf full of ice wrapped around my neck. And then every, I'm gonna say three to four miles, one of my crew members would stand on the side of a road with a bottle of water that I could dump over, that was over my head.

And I would dry within, I'm gonna say six minutes, I would be completely dry, right? And then even that wasn't enough, so we had to stop a couple of times for IVs. I needed about three bags of IVs because it was getting dangerously dehydrated. And that's permitted under the rules? That's permitted, yes.

The RAM rules are pretty strict in terms of what you can and can't do. Correct, but when it's life-threatening like that, I mean, I think all of us did. I mean, the two guys that were behind me, they didn't have, I had a doctor and nurse with me, right? So they could give me the IV, but they also got the IV in the hospital

and everyone else had dropped out, right? Even teams had dropped out early into the race, especially through California and Arizona. Right, so how many towed the line and then how many ended up finishing? I finished on Saturday, 11 days, I believe it was three hours. And then 17 hours after me, Eric was the first male.

And then two hours after him, the last writer came in. Only three people finished. And I believe that the teams- What about relays? A lot of relays dropped out too. I'm not exactly sure, don't quote me on this, but I believe half of them did drop out. That's when you know it's bad.

You know it's bad. Because if the relays are dropping out where they're getting rest, it's gotta be insane. Yeah, I mean, just try standing in those temperatures, let alone ride, right? It was crazy. And on top of that, like in Kansas, because at that point it was between myself and Mark,

who was leading the field at that time, he was from the United Kingdom. We both had a headwind for like, I'm gonna say close to 20 hours. It was just relentless. Wow. At what point, okay, so you complete the race in 11 days, three hours.

You are the first woman to ever win the race outright in the 39 year history of this race. At what point during the race, did you feel like you had a shot at winning? Well, it was kind of way in the back of my head in the start, right? I mean, I knew Mark was a nine dayer, right? I mean, he's done it, like, I think, I believe nine times,

the man from the United Kingdom, he was the favorite to win. So, I mean, when I kind of knew it was when I passed him in the Appalachians, right? But I didn't do no victory speech or anything like that because anything can happen during a round. You know what I mean? You don't do that because I still had a lot of miles to go. The Appalachians is what really separates everybody, right?

That's when it gets real. Yeah, I mean, that's the hardest. Yeah, the climbs are steep, not like the Rockies where it's kind of more gradual. These are steep, sharp climbs and it's just climb after climb after climb. And I was kind of, when him and I were going back and forth, I was kind of trying to conserve as much as possible because that's kind of where my strength is,

is the climbing, right? But I think he pulled out before we even, as we were getting into the Appalach? But I think he pulled out before we even, as we were getting into the Appalachians, I think he pulled out of the race. Right, but as you said, anything can happen. And you almost didn't finish within almost seeing distance of the finish line. Oh my God, yeah.

Yeah, oh my gosh, yeah. I'll never forget that till the day I die. So, I mean, I think that day I was really overheated. Electrolyte balance is super important to keep everything intact. And I was hot and tired and I wasn't eating right. It wasn't, couldn't drink really as much as I wanted to and just wanted to get the thing over with.

And all of a sudden my heart just elevated. Like it was beating at 200 beats an hour and I got super dizzy, right? 200 beats a minute, yeah. Yeah, yeah, a minute, sorry. And I basically fell off my bike onto a patch of grass that was on the right side. Thank God it was there, you know?

And I just started to tremble and I've never experienced that before, right? You know, and so my crew comes out, they're trying to cool me down and, you know, and I said, you know what? And the finish is right there, right? And I'm terrified because I can't get up, right? And so I relaxed a little bit more than I get up.

And I said, you know what? I'm allowed to walk with the bike. You can't have anyone help. So no one touched me. So my crew- And you got like 10 hours on the guy behind you. Yeah, no, I had- At least, right? More than that?

At that point I had 17 hours. Right, okay. So you could take a minute. But still you wanna come to the finish. I mean, people are waiting for me. You know, it was crazy. So I start walking the bike with, so my crew member, you know, she gives me her pink running shoes.

So you can see me walking. There's pictures of me walking with the bike and then into the actual finish, it's a little bit of a descend. So I didn't wanna, you know, walk. I was kind of embarrassed. So I said, okay, you know what? I can get to just roll into.

So you can see in that real finish of Race Across America, I'm rolling in and then you can see two crew members running beside me to catch me just in case I follow. You tipped over and you got running shoes on. I have running shoes on, these big oversized pink running shoes. And then as soon as I crossed the line, you see the ambulance, the fire department come

and they're all taking my vitals and wanting me to go to the hospital and all that kind of stuff, right? So it was, but that was honestly, it was a scary moment. I was in total panic mode. Do you have memory of that? I mean, sometimes when that kind of stuff happens, like you're in a semi blackout.

No, I remember very well. I remember the panic on my face, the panic on my crew's face go, oh my God, it's like right there. I mean, you can smell it, right? That close, but I mean, like I said, I mean, I had a pretty good cushion, a good lead on the guy behind, but you still wanna, there's a crowd waiting for you.

And you wanna look good crossing that line. The picture's gonna get taken, right? Yeah, exactly. So 52 years old, first woman to ever win this race. I mean, what does that say about athletic potential as we age and also the difference between men and women when it comes to endurance and ultra endurance specifically? I mean, women tend to just get better and better and better.

And that gap between men and women narrows considerably as you age up and gets eclipsed as in your case. I think, yeah, I think that's, I mean, I'm like I said, I'm not a scientist, I don't know the science behind it, but I believe like with a race like Race Across America, it's 70% mental, 30% physical, right? And in this particular one, even if you talk to Eric and I am sorry, I don't know the gentleman

that came in second, but it was a race of attrition, right? Of who can take the most suffering because you honestly could not ride as hard as you want to. It was survival, not racing. It was survival, exactly. So it was a different type of race, right? But like you said, I think it does,

the gap does get narrower because a lot of women have won, the transcontinental, a German lady won the race, some ultra running races, a couple of women have won races. So I think the gap does close as you get into the longer races where it's not so much on your strength, right? But on your mental ability, right?

And how much pain you can take. Yeah, women can take more pain. I think, well, maybe, yeah. I think so. I think you're a living example of that. Are you gonna do this again? Oh, absolutely. I didn't, I mean-

You didn't meet your time goal. I did not meet my time goal. So I remember crossing the line and I go, ah, damn, I gotta do it again. I was kidding. I'm just fixated on 10 days. I just, you know, I know I'm really pushing the envelope. I'm not, you know, a spring chicken,

but I still feel that I have the ability to ride it in 10 days. And what did you learn with this Ram that will be instructive in terms of tweaking your training for the next one? I have to learn, it's the heat. I mean, honestly, if you take the heat away, I think I believe I could have made my goal.

I really do. I felt like I was smarter this time. My crew was smarter. We were prepared navigational wise. We made very little error. Yeah, I think that it's just, I think just the weather conditions is what handicapped us, right?

It was, like I said, it wasn't just one section of the race. It was right across the country. So when you're done, how long do you then sleep for? Or is your body just so messed up that you can only sleep like an hour and then you're up again? Yeah, your body is pretty messed up. It took me, I'm gonna say almost a week

before I could go into that regular cycle. You're in this trauma. It's like your body's trying to protect you from dying. And it takes a while before it realizes like, oh, the heat's off. Like is there a, and then there's a crash. Yeah, well, I mean, I think too, it's important. Like I got on the bike pretty fast when I felt like,

I had some pretty serious saddle sores, right? But like just spinning, just really light spinning is moving the body. Cause I don't think you want a cold turkey. I don't think it's good for the body. You know, I think you'll recover faster if you stay. Because, you know, you think about all the training leading up to this race, right?

And just to do nothing. I think that is worse for you than actually getting back and doing. So I did, I mean, because of COVID, I had to quarantine. So I did a lot of trainer workouts at home, for the two weeks, but I think that really helped me recover. And again, as I was telling you, I think it was the body. I mean, I couldn't push myself as hard as I wanted to.

So my muscles weren't particularly sore as the damage to my skin, my face and whatnot. Oh my God. And the other thing is you did this plant-based, you're a plant-based athlete. Correct. Yeah, how long have you been plant-based? Well, it's funny, it's been in phases, right?

I mean, I actually stopped eating meat when I was, I think a little girl, I just loved animals so much. And you think about it, in my generation, right? At five years old, I said, mom, I'm not eating meat anymore, right? And I was vegan right until the military. I was mostly, I could call it a fruitarian, and I remember in the military they said,

Oh, you're gonna get osteoporosis and you're not gonna do well in this side. I mean, I was the top of my game in the military. You're like, I'm the one training you how to do this. It was more the doctor saying that, right? But I think as I told you earlier, is that a lot of the soldiers, like the commando soldiers were vegetarians.

Like the military really catered. You didn't have that in Canada, right? Like there was a whole section in the military in the food room called the food room, where the food is made for the soldiers. Half the food room is all vegan options, right? And it was, I was amazed at that, during that time that a lot of soldiers,

even a lot of the athletes, they were, not necessarily just plant-based, but just vegetarians, or didn't eat eggs, dairy or whatnot. And then I moved back to Canada and on the national team, the issue was, is I didn't have the food that I needed, right? Like when we're in Europe, they fed you. So what they would give me was white bread, you know, cheese and whatnot, right? So the dietician there said, you know, you have to start eating a little bit of meat and whatnot, you know, to get your strength back. And so I did,

I flipped back and I started eating meat, not feeling too great, but not feeling too great either. Because you can be vegetarian and not healthy by just eating the wrong foods, right? And then I remember watching the Game Changer and I saw Dotsie there and I go, what the hell? And so I remember, and I called her and I said, Dotsie, thank God I saw you, you know what I mean? And I just, my dad just said,

you just watch this documentary, right? And I thought what an idiot I I saw you. You know what I mean? And I just, my dad just said, you just watch this documentary, right? And I thought what an idiot I am, right? You know what I mean? And as soon as I did everything, all my, everything went up. My recovery was better. I rode stronger. I rode faster.

I felt great. I slept better. You know what I mean? So yeah. That's unbelievable. So it's kind of like in waves, right? Sure. You know, yeah.

But Game Changers only came out a couple of years ago. So you only deployed that plant-based diet in the most recent RAM. About two and a half years ago, yeah. This most recent one, correct, yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And you could feel a difference. Oh, for sure.

Right. I mean, I know how I felt back in, you know, it depends what your options are to eat, right? You know, and just going that route. I mean, instantly within the week, I said, this is how I felt when I was in the military. And you forget about that. But mind you, even when I was eating,

I didn't eat beef or anything, just a little bit of chicken and fish. I still didn't feel good or didn't feel, because I do it for humanitarian reasons. At that time I wasn't thinking about the health reasons. You'd be doing it irrespective of how it impacted your athletic performance. Right, right.

And so, but yeah, I mean, I'm a big believer. I don't push it on people or whatever. Right, yeah, you're low key about it. Like you don't, you're not out on the pulpit, you know. No, no. Banging the drum about this. No, I mean, to each their own, everybody knows what's good and what's right.

You know, I'm not there to tell you what to do, but I know what works for me and what makes me feel good. So yeah. Have you met Dotsie? Oh yeah, we raced together. Oh, you did? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh, so you know her from your racing years.

I know her, yeah, yeah, I know her. Oh, that's cool. She's the best. Yeah, yeah, I totally know her, yeah. Oh, that's great. She's awesome, yeah. That's cool. It's like she slapped me through the TV, right?

Yeah. That was meant to be. I know her. I know, yeah. Right, wow. So what is a day in the life of food look like for you when you're training really hard? When I'm training really hard,

well, I do a lot of smoothies. I like to stick to liquids on the bike as much as possible. You're pretty much liquid during RAM throughout, right? You just can't, especially in the heat, you wouldn't be able to keep down any solid food. I couldn't eat anything, no. And if I could, it's just fruit. Like watermelon is big, grapes are big,

like the juicy fruits kind of stuff. What about dates? Dates, I didn't use dates. I mean, I use it in training, but not so much in the race. Hammer is my, they have a lot of Hammer vegan bars and stuff, they have awesome, you know, vegan protein powders or whatever. I like how you call it vegan.

Or vegetarian, vegan, vegan. It's a Canadian thing. Yeah, so yeah, I mean- But in training, like walk me through like the real foods that you're eating. The real, well, I mean, they would give me wraps, tofu scramble wraps, you know, avocado was a big one, rice, you rice, beans.

But keeping it simple. Just in little wraps and giving me from the bike, like you're doing everything on the bike, right? So just simple light foods, because again, you don't have a huge appetite. You just don't, you just keep it consistent. A lot of fluids, again, in that kind of heat, as you know, it's really difficult to eat. And the training, I mean, you're on the bike

like 60 hours a week, right? But you live where it gets cold. How much of that is indoors on a trainer versus out on the road? In the winter, it's 100% indoors because I live in Vernon, so you cannot ride out. I mean, you can with the snow bike and with the big fat tires, I don't do that.

So, but I'll start like I'll cross train with running, like trail running ice, it's called crampons, there's little spikes on the bottom of your shoes or whatever. So I'll do that or I'll drive to Vancouver. My parents live there. You can ride there, it's very rainy, but you can ride outside.

But I'm gonna say trainer workouts in the winter, it's probably about 70 to 80% for me. And how do you deal with just the mental doldrums of that? That's right. Like do you watch movies and listen to music or? Sorry, no way. Just a complete deprivation tank. Don't listen to music.

I don't look at my phone. Notch up the suffering. Yeah, no television, no nothing. Cause I don't get that when I race, right? Like in Kansas, all you see is road for 20 hours. So I guess that's another level of discipline cause it would be so easy to just set up a laptop in front of you and watch something while you're doing it.

Like I remember like even sometimes downstairs, if somebody turns on the TV, I almost find it like a distraction, right? I just try to- So where does your mind go? It just goes to what I'm doing. Like I'll replicate a course or a ride or whatever. Like I'll do like replicate a climb,

you know, I'm gonna ride flat here for 20K or whatever. Then I'll climb for two hours and I'll go down to the flats again. So I'll play things in my head, right? You know, but that's Race Across America. You just have to be in robot mode and just keep pedaling, look forward and don't think about anything else.

Time becomes very fluid and malleable. Like when you've been doing that for a while and you increase your volume, suddenly what used to feel like forever feels like nothing. Like an eight hour ride can feel like a two hour ride when you acclimated yourself to it. But it does require that level of discipline. Right, well, I mean, it's training too.

Like I remember it's funny that you say that because of discipline. Right. Well, I mean, it's training too. Like I remember, it's funny that you say that because sometimes like veering the end of my training, I'd be so, I go, yeah, you only have to do 10 hours today. Right. It's all perspective. But that's better than 20 hours, right? So that's funny that you say that and like going for a four hour ride is a warmup,

you know what I mean? So again, like you said, it's in perspective, but for RAM, that's what you're gonna do for, you know, nine, 10, 11, 12 days, right? So it's better that you train and you know what that feels like, rather than experiencing that in the race. Talk to me about how martial arts interplay

with endurance sports. Like I'm interested in what you've kind of gleaned from being a martial artist, a combat athlete, and what lessons from that world are applicable to ultra endurance and vice versa? Like how do those worlds compliment each other? Well, I think it's discipline and consistency, right? You know, like with combat sports and Taekwondo,

whatever, or martial arts, you have to train and practice because it's a skilled sport, you know? Riding is more, you're just pedaling, you know what I mean? It's mental thing of, but you have to train and practice because it's a skilled sport. Riding is more, you're just pedaling. You know what I mean? It's mental thing of, but you have to practice. And again, and even when you're having those days where you just don't want to do it, you have to do it. Because you're not always gonna have those great days.

Few and far beyond, you're gonna have those great days. So I think it's a matter of, again, of the consistency and no matter what you're, where you are, how you feel that you, you gotta do whatever you have to do. A key difference being when you're a combat sports athlete, you have an opponent, but in endurance, really the opponent is you.

Like you're not, there are other people in the race, but it's kind of irrelevant because it's a, it's a contest between you and yourself. Exactly. There's nothing more difficult than kickboxing. a contest between you and yourself. Exactly. There's nothing more difficult than kickboxing. I'll tell you that much. It's like exactly what you said, because you have more control when you're doing cycling,

whatever, you can stop it. But if you stop when you're fighting someone, they'll beat you up. You know what I mean? That you have to be one up on that, right? So I found it way more challenging and way more important to be on top of your game in that particular sport, because the objective of that sport

is to knock the other person down. Sure. And also if you drop your guard, you can get injured. In one second. Like hurt, right? Like you can just get off your bike. I mean, maybe you fall asleep on your bike and you tip over.

That's not so good. Or you crash descending 80 miles an hour and peel your face off. But generally, the stakes are a little bit more dire and higher in a combat situation, of course, right? There's no comparison. Yeah, so they're very different in that regard. But the discipline, the like attention to detail

and precision, like in ultra endurance, you can kind of, because it's so long, like you're not gonna be perfect, right? So precision is less applicable, but you have to stay on top of all those details like saddle sores and your nutrition schedule and all of that, like there's a rigor to that, I think that is demanding and essential if you're gonna compete to your potential.

Right, but it becomes almost systematic. Like, you know the routine, you know what, like you said, there's way more elements in ultra endurance racing, right? You know, it's not just a matter of doing one thing. Like you said, it's nutrition, it's clothing, it's your bike, it's everything, right? So, but it becomes almost like second nature. That's why being consistent, right, with it

and not, you know, not doing the training when you, even when you don't feel like it is important, right? You know, and staying on top of your game and always pushing harder than you wanna push. Like I try to train harder than I would in a race. So the race almost feels easy, right? You know, not just a matter of sitting on your bike and pedaling away mindlessly, right?

There's a purpose to what you're doing, right? And I think for me, that's really important, you know what I mean, to prepare yourself, especially when you're going after a goal, like we're going after a 10 day goal. So I have to be, come to that line in the best shape possible, right? You know, so that requires a lot of training,

specific training, being on top of it and consistency, opposed to, okay, I just wanna finish in 12 days. That's a whole different ball game, right? But what I'm going after is a little bit more intense. So the precision organization and having a good team behind you, like my crew has to be on the same page as me. And that's, people don't realize how important,

you know, your finish is determined by your crew, how good your crew is. Right, it is a team sport very much in that sense. And you think about putting nine people together, right? Oh, there's legendary stories of crews blowing up and leaving. Oh yeah, we had one. I mean, you'll see, I mean, we have a documentary coming out.

You'll see one crew member taking out, you know, taking off from the car, right? He just took off, right? So, I mean, it's crazy the dynamics that go in, like that's a whole new podcast for you, right? You would think like we're in an RV or we're in a van, we're going all the way across the country, this person's on a bike, like, what are we gonna do?

We're gonna crank the tunes, we're gonna kick back, it's gonna be awesome. But literally like you're taking bottle drops, like every 15 minutes or whatever, and they have to sleep too. Were you rotating crew members between multiple vehicles? No, we had two sets of crew members, three and three. So they do 12 hour shifts.

You had a day shift and then a night shift. So that gives them a bit of time too. But still there's lots to fill up the gas, think of the navigation, they have to eat too. To keep me prepared, know about the terrain, know about the navigation, they have to eat too, right? You know, to keep me prepared, know about the terrain, know about who's where, whatever, you know, there's a lot of things going on. You can ask any crew member that those 12 hours

just fly by. And it's not like they get 12 hours off. You know, it's not no such a case, right? They may be getting- Are they Israeli commandos? Sorry? Are they? No. They shouldn't be.

They shouldn't be, they could be. They could be at the end of that. Yeah, they'd't be, they could be. They'd be like Johnny on the spot. I totally agree. I think Yuri Rovik had, wasn't he like a Slovenian army or something like that? And he had like his whole crew were military guys and they had like military vehicles

and he had like speakers on the crew vehicle that would broadcast like military anthems, like in the middle of the night. Like there's always weird stories about. Okay, well, maybe I should try that. I'll try that next year. Well, you don't like any music, right? No, I don't.

Are you allowed to wear earbuds or you can't do any of that? Just the earbuds to your car. Yeah, and no crew member can actually like touch you, right? And you can't touch the crew. How does that work? Well, I mean, I can't hold onto the car, but let's say like when I'm getting off the bike, say I take a bathroom break and I'm clipping in,

he can give me a push or he or she can just push me off, but no contact. Because there was a thing in the last mile when you got handed the running shoes, like wasn't it? No, the running shoes, I was off the bike. They just, I was on the grass. And then I, cause you can't do that on the bike. So I, yeah running shoes, I was off the bike. They just, I was on the grass. And then I, cause you can't do that on the bike. So I, yeah.

But they can't touch the bike. Like there's all this, I don't know exactly what the rules are, but I know it's very strict. They can assist you like when you're starting, cause you know, you're very wobbly, right? Like if you look at how, you know, cause of the momentum on the bike, you kind of,

they can stabilize you and just give you one little. But once you get off the bike, you look like a drunk person. So they can, you know, kind of veer you on, stabilize you, give you one little. But once you get off the bike, you look like a drunk person. So they can kind of veer you on, stabilize you, give you a little push, but it's not like they can push you for half a mile or something like that, right? So you wanna be realistic on to what,

but for safety reasons, they're allowed to assist you that way. But when you're on the bike and you're riding, they can't touch you. And you're geotagged the whole time. So the organizers know where every competitor is. So when you run into a scenario, like there's construction or the bridge is washed out

or something like that, like how do you figure out how to proceed without getting disqualified? Well, for example, we were in the lead coming into Kansas and the bridge was washed out. It's like you said, so we call headquarters. They give me a time credit for them to figure it out. They look on route and they give me a detour, right?

And there are officials on route, right? And normally, but there wasn't one far enough ahead of us to catch that obstruction. So then they give you a reroute on that. So that happens many times. That's why you're in constant communication with headquarters. Right.

Talk to me about the documentary. Okay, well. What's going on? I about the documentary. Okay, well. What's going on? I watched the trailer. Did you watch it? It's exciting. Well, the documentary is just basically, it's based on the book, right?

It's gonna, it follows me through round. You're rewriting the book right now, aren't you? Yes, we are. We're updating the book, we'll just say. We're gonna have a new name, new cover, you know, just add a few more chapters. It's freshening it up a little bit. There's a lot more to the story.

There is, yeah. Well, I mean, we need multiple books. So we'll freshen it up a little bit. There's a lot more to the story. There is, yeah. Well, I mean, we'd need multiple books. So we'll kind of squish it a little bit. Yeah, and then the documentary, they started filming in 2018 actually, and kind of go back a little bit on my past and leading up to the race. There's like footage of you competing as a kickboxer,

right, just like footage of you as a kid. Correct, yeah. Yes, there's, yeah, you'll see lots of old footage. It's funny. So what's the plan with the doc? Well, right now we're just, actually we just had a screening last night. Oh, you did?

Yeah, so we're, cause the producer and directors actually lives in LA. So this is perfect. So yeah, we had a screening. It still needs to get a little bit, some graphics done, some coloring, some music. And then we're hoping for next year, the summer. And what's your training look like right now?

Well, I just finished my last week prior to coming to LA. So I'll take about like three or four weeks. When I say off, I'll just cross train. I'll just do keep with the core work and then do some running and hiking and hang out with my dogs and family and do some normal things. And then like occasionally flip a house.

Maybe, yeah. If I see something, perhaps. Cool, well, to round this out, I mean, I think it would be helpful for people who are listening or watching who perhaps have difficulty kind of connecting with the specifics of your story because you're superhuman and the things that you do,

but the principles I think are applicable to anyone. So for that person who feels a little bit stuck or is struggling with their, you know, maybe it's their weight or their fitness, or they're just looking to kind of mix up their life a little bit and unstick themselves from whatever situation they're just looking to kind of mix up their life a little bit and unstick themselves from whatever situation they're in. You as this person who's thought deeply

about a lot of this stuff and speaks to public groups about this, like how do you trigger that person to think differently about their life and perhaps start blazing a new trajectory? Well, I mean, I think too, sometimes hearing other people's stories of what other people have gone through,

helps you kind of regroup and think about your own self, right, of what if she can do it or he can do it, and I'm honestly not that special. It's just something that I really wanted to do and I have a passion for, and I think that, I think we idle too much. I think when we're faced with fear, there's this instinct of fight or flight, right?

But I think many of us, we freeze, we don't know what to do. And I think it's because think we idle too much. I think when we're faced with fear, there's this instinct of fight or flight, right? But I think many of us, we freeze, we don't know what to do. And I think it's because we just place too much limitations on ourselves. And we always focus on that one bad thing that could happen opposed to all the great things that could happen, right? And I think that's what handicaps us. And I just think my motto is,

it's not how many times you fall, right? It's how many times you can get back up and not to sit there and wait for things to happen. Life's too short. You can't sit there and wait for things to happen because nothing will happen. It's a matter of you taking the responsibility, stepping forward and make your life

whatever you want it to be, right? Because possibilities are endless. Yeah, I think that's really powerful and helpful. I mean, when I think about you and what you've done in your story, I mean, your superpower really is this refusal to quit. And you have talents, like you're naturally very athletic, but you weren't born with extraordinary gifts,

like Michael Phelps's feet or something like that. Like you've put yourself in difficult positions and you've worked your ass off to succeed and you've had obstacles along the way, but you understand that the talent deficit gap gets narrowed by dent of your ability and determination to outwork everybody else. Like it's a work ethic thing with you.

Well, I mean, that's what I'm saying is like, you don't have to be gifted in whatever you choose to do. Cause there's a gift all of us have, and it's called the gift of work, like you just said. Right? And it's a matter of utilizing that. Cause I wasn't gifted as a cyclist. I'm not gifted as a cyclist.

And I knew I had to work- You spent nine years trying to- Well, that's what I mean, but I worked my butt off to get there, right? You know, and sometimes you do, you have to work harder than you're, you know, the person behind you or besides you or whatever. And that's the reality of making things happen, but it doesn't mean you can't make it happen, right?

Because everyone has something that lights their fire, right? And, you know, it might not come easy, but whatever you choose to do, you know, you have to make it to whatever your finish line is. You know, even if it's not the outcome that you want, and it's not as fast as you want to get there, is your goal is just to get there no matter what it takes. I think that's a good place to put a pin in it for now.

Awesome. That was super fun talking to you. How do you feel? I'm feeling good. You feel good? Thanks for having me, yes, thank you. Yeah, you look all happy and fired up, so that's good. Cool, well, until the documentary comes out and until the new edition of the book comes out,

people can find your book, No Limits on Amazon and all the places. Or our website. Or on your website, which is your name, right? Where are the places that you wanna direct people who wanna learn more about you? I think just that's Facebook. LeahGoldstone.com.

Instagram, yeah. Your accounts on social media are at like Leah No Limits? Yes. Yeah. Cool, L-E-A-H. Correct, yeah. Your accounts on social media are at like Lea No Limits? Yes. Yeah. Cool, L-E-A-H. Correct, yeah. All right, cool. Well, keep me posted. If there's anything I can do to help around the documentary

or just to help get the word out about your story. Awesome, thank you, I appreciate that. I'm at your service. Yeah, I really do. I mean, it's really powerful. The things that you have done are unbelievable and the lessons behind them, I think are even's really powerful. The things that you have done are unbelievable and the lessons behind them, I think are even more instructive.

And I just want more people to be aware of your journey. Thank you so much. It was a delight to talk to you. Thanks so much. Do you have a copy of the book? I don't. Can I give you one? Yeah, of course.

Okay. Yeah, of course. Cool. I'll give you a few books too. Awesome. That'd be great. Thank you. And we'll talk again soon. Yes. Thanks so much. I appreciate it. Yeah. Awesome.

Yeah. Cool, and we'll talk again soon. Yes, thanks so much, Rich. I appreciate it. Awesome, yeah. That's it for today. Thank you for listening. I truly hope you enjoyed the conversation. To learn more about today's guest, including links and resources related to everything discussed today, visit the episode page at richroll.com, where you can find the entire podcast archive, as well as podcast merch, my books, Finding Ultra, Voicing Change in the Plant Power Way,

as well as the Plant Power Meal Planner at meals.richroll.com. If you'd like to support the podcast, the easiest and most impactful thing you can do is to subscribe to the show on Apple Podcasts, on Spotify, and on YouTube, and leave a review and or comment. Supporting the sponsors who support the show is also important and appreciated. And sharing the show or your favorite episode

with friends or on social media is of course awesome and very helpful. the show is also important and appreciated. And sharing the show or your favorite episode with friends or on social media is, of course, awesome and very helpful. And finally, for podcast updates, special offers on books, the meal planner, and other subjects, please subscribe to our newsletter, which you can find on the footer of any page at richroll.com. Today's show was produced and engineered by Jason Camiolo with additional audio engineering by Cale Curtis. The video edition of the podcast was created by Blake Curtis with assistance by our creative director, Dan Drake. Portraits by Davy Greenberg, graphic and social media assets courtesy of Daniel Solis, Dan Drake, and AJ Akpodiete.

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