The Rich Roll Podcast - Rachel Entrekin Runs On Joy: How She Won The Cocodona 250 Outright By Letting Go Of The Outcome

Episode Date: June 15, 2026

Rachel Entrekin is a professional ultra runner and three-time Cocodona 250 champion who just won the race outright. This conversation explores the mindset behind that feat. We discuss her shift from chasing outcomes to chasing joy, her "why not me?" self-belief, an unexpected encounter on the final climb, and her road back from an eating disorder. Along the way, she reminds us how much more we're all capable of than we believe. Rachel is a bright light. Enjoy! Show notes + MORE Watch on YouTube Newsletter Sign-Up Today’s Sponsors: Rivian: Electric vehicles that keep the world adventurous forever👉🏼https://www.rivian.com  Mill: Try Mill risk-free for 90 days + get $75 off👉🏼https://www.mill.com/RICHROLL  BetterHelp: Get 10% OFF the first month👉🏼https://www.betterhelp.com/richroll  Freaks of Nature: Save 20% with code RICHROLL👉🏼https://www.freaksofnature.com  LMNT: Get a free 8-count Sample Pack with any purchase👉🏼https://www.drinkLMNT.com/RICHROLL  AG1: Get the Welcome Kit + D3 + K2 + Flavor sampler pack FREE ($126 in gifts)👉🏼https://www.drinkAG1.com/richroll  Check out all of the amazing discounts from our Sponsors👉🏼https://www.richroll.com/sponsors  Find out more about Voicing Change Media at https://www.voicingchange.media and follow us @voicingchange

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Try Mill risk-free for 90 days and get $75 off at mill.com slash rich roll and use code rich roll. There's 400 people and you're all just trying to make it to Flagstaff. You're battling the weather. You're battling fatigue. Wildlife. You're battling all the uncertainty that comes with going that far. We want and only Rachel Antrickon. The first woman ever to win the.

the entire field at the Kokadona 250. One of the most absolutely mind-boggling athletic feats of 2026. Things got really hard physically. You can choose the attitude that you want to have. I did not have a single placement goal. I did not have a time goal. Those were my goals. To have a better attitude at the finish line.

If I choose to be grateful to the experience itself, I'm going to perform better no matter what. Why can't I be the one leading? Why not just take whatever? All right, Rachel, it's so good to finally meet you. I'm so excited to have you here. For people that don't know, I just want to set the stage. You just won this crazy race called Kokadona 250. It's the third time in a row that you've won it. But this time, you ran seven hours faster than last year? I guess so. I don't know. 56 hours. You not only won the women's race, you won the race

outright, you beat all the men. I think you beat Killing Korth by over an hour, the men's champion who also broke the men's record. How did you do this? How did you pull off this unbelievable feat? Well, it has been three years in making because the first year I did Kocodona, it was not as easy as this time was. It was easier to go seven hours faster this year. I guess it's all relative, right? But yeah, my first year, I didn't know how nutrition worked. I didn't know how to sleep. I didn't know what the course was like, so I didn't know how to pace on it.

I had just heard a lot of things about, you know, the first 35 miles are really hard, so you have to go slow. And I, you know, I didn't know anything. And so I listened to those. And I paced inappropriately. I didn't fuel enough. I bonged really hard at about the halfway point. And then I had to take about three hours off the course just to get my life. life together. Yeah, and then I did too much salt, which you can do, and it's terrible.

So I wound up throwing up for like 10 hours as I'm going at a half a mile per hour pace for 10 hours. And then, you know, finally got my stuff together, died on the last climb. So there was a, the second year I did it, there was a lot to improve. And you still won. I still won. Yeah. But it's very, it's very different than it was three years ago. Yeah. Now, because we just, we have more improved. So people can train better. We have so much more knowledge about fueling and how to do it well and sleeping and how to be efficient. But yeah. And so the second year I figured, well, if I improve my nutrition, I'll at least save myself five hours. And I wound up, I think beating my time by nine hours. So I had a nine hour improvement. Nine hour PR. Yeah, which was pretty cool. I did. I got I think fourth overall that year. Edder Ramirez, past me going up the last climb. And it was actually really wonderful because we just like high fived and hugged. And I wasn't even mad. This year going into it, I actually didn't know how I was going to beat my time last year. I thought I did a pretty good job last year. So other than dialing in

your nutrition and getting super intentional about that, what were the other changes that you've made that account for that leap in performance? Yeah. I have pretty much dialed down. how my crew should operate and who I want to be on that crew. So I work with precision, fueling, and hydration. They're one of my big sponsors. And they were really interested in working with this race specifically. So they sent their whole team out. And they sent my sport scientist.

Her name is Emily. And she just is a wizard with fueling. We've, this is the second race she's crewed me at. And she just gives me what I need. And it's my job to eat it. And like that is our transaction. And that's based upon the work that you were doing throughout the year to figure out how to solve that. Yeah, with her specifically.

And so you offload all of those decisions on to her. And she just basically takes care of it and says, eat this, drink this. She puts the gas in the car, which is, I just have no idea. It's all witchcraft. I don't understand how any of that works. It's also super personal. It is. What works for you isn't going to work for the other person.

but I did read that you were taking in something like 60 grams of carbohydrates and somewhere between 300 and 800 milliliters of fluid every hour on the hour. Pretty much. And that's a combination of the precision, nutrition, and hydration, but also all these beige foods. Like you were eating a lot more real food throughout. Yeah, for sure. And I think mostly that is just to, there's a lot of sweet.

Like everything is really sweet. Yeah. with sports nutrition for the most part because it's easy to digest and it's easy on your palate. But eventually you kind of get tired of that. Yeah. That's when the barfing starts. Yeah. So I counteract barfing with beige. Yeah. Bage helps. So counteract barfing with beige. That's like its own mantra. Yeah. I should put it on a T-shirt. Yeah. Well, the videos of you approaching the finish that went viral all across the world were insane because you look so fresh. It looked like you were just starting out. Like no one would have thought you weren't even like your kit wasn't

even dirty. Like it looked like it looked like wait this looks like the start of the race and you know, Killing Korth was like yeah, take a look at what I look like near the end and he's all hunched over and and and you look so fresh. It was a smile on your face and you know all your family and your friends and your teammates like all running with you. And that was like this spark of inspiration that, literally just traveled all across the world. And you became this viral sensation, like this relatively, like very successful, but, you know, in the grand scheme of things, like obscure athlete suddenly is the person that everybody is talking about, which in addition to just, you know, winning this race and achieving this incredible feat must have been very kind of like

bewildering and strange for you. It definitely was. I had a little bit of practice. last year with this phenomenon, I guess, because last year I also got elevated after my finish at this race, but nothing like this year. I remember last year finishing the race, turning on my phone, or I had my phone on airplane mode and turned it off airplane mode and all of my Instagram DMs and stuff, my phone crashed. My phone crashed. It was too much. It literally crashed the phone. It crashed my phone. So this year, I had the foresight to, give my socials to one a person on my crew like that was his job was just you're in charge of social media because I have a feeling I didn't I didn't expect this but I was like I expect

something I mean you have Courtney in the race you have meg Eckerd in the race you have Heather Jackson in this race there's a ton of and that's I mean that's just women like there's also all these huge like multi-day men who are doing it as well and so I figured there would be a lot going on on the internet but yeah even I just it was insane to turn on my phone and be like, holy crap, I have 130,000 new followers over the course of three days, three days. And it, yeah, so it was definitely, it was definitely wild. Yeah, the BBC, the Guardian, the New York Times, ESPN, like everybody was covering this. And it's not as if, I mean, Coca-Donough has become a much more important race, but

it's not exactly UTMB or Western States. Like it hasn't been considered in that same company. Yeah, which I think is silly, honestly. I think the multi-day space provides so much more of a stage for athletes to tell their stories and to show what kind of person they are. If you're winning Western States, you're doing it in 15 hours or less. That's just not, and your only focus can be running as fast as you can. But during Kocodona, I mean, if you're running as fast as you, if you're running at that kind of pace, you're going to DNF by mile 100.

It's a totally different thing to conflate 100 miles with a 250 mile race. Like it's an entirely different thing altogether. And everybody sort of lumps ultras into one category, but it's really, like, vastly different. Yeah. But I just look at, you know, what Kocodona did for Dan Green last year. He was the men's winter last year. And it, I mean, it elevated his profile because we all got to meet this person and we all kind of collectively decided that we like this person. You know, he has a good attitude. He finished strong. He finished with a smile on his face. He and his crew just had fun out there. Yeah, multi-days just give you a bigger stage to have fun and to show off like the fun side. Or, I mean, with Killian Court, you can show off like how gritty you are. Just more so you have you have more time to do that than something at a hunger. But that's very counterintuitive.

would think like, oh, it's so much longer, it's got to be less fun. Like, how does the fun? It's so much more fun. Where's the fun part? Well, the fun part is what you decide, I guess. Me, I think that there's nothing, at any, any race that I go to, there's nothing I would rather be doing than that race. And so who am I to say that I'm not going to have fun while I'm doing it? I'm choosing to do this. So if I'm complaining about how hard it is, I need to be reevaluating why I'm signing up for these things. So for me, I think I choose for it to be fun. And I think a lot of people must do that or we wouldn't be signing up. You mentioned when you finished last year, you won, but you weren't exactly in the most positive mindset.

No, I was not. And am I right to think you made a conscious decision? Like, I don't want to feel this way again about this. And next year, I want to have that sense of joy and that you were seeing in other people that you weren't, that you weren't in exhibiting that. Yeah, I mean, 2024, I mean, I bonged really hard going up the last climb. I was really kind of a dick to my pacer. Because I just, I had no reserves on which to draw at that point. I've never done something that hard. And so I just, I was really, really negative. And my finish line video, I hate watching and I hate seeing because I just, I was so, like, flat and sad.

And then I remember watching the second place woman come in. her name was Manuela Villaseca. And she was so pumped. And she was grateful and she was thankful for the experience. And she was what I wanted to be. And she got second and I got first. And so it just felt really, like I felt crappy for the behavior that I was demonstrating at that finish line. And so, yeah, going into 2025, my pretty much only goals were to figure out nutrition.

And I started working with precision. So check. And then to have a better attitude at the finish line. I did not have a single placement goal. I did not have a time goal. Those were my goals. And I figured if I did those things well, then I would have a good race regardless of placement. And what did that teach you about the relationship between joy and gratitude and performance?

Because there is that idea like if you're not like just tapped out and have no mental reserves and you're grouchy and barking at everyone, it's because you. left it all out on the course. And if you have joy and gratitude, then that's energy that should have been channeled towards moving you forward more quickly. Like, that's the very kind of masculine, you know, like, go big or go home kind of like idea. But then we have Courtney, who is the embodiment of like joy and gratitude and like just like very aware of like her impact on how she inspires people and make sure that she is always in that state of mind in these races. And obviously, she's, you know, been this dominant queen in the sport for so long. And you're blind if you can't see that there's a lesson there, right? She was one of my biggest inspirations. I think I probably

first heard about her in maybe 2016 right before she blew up all over the world with her Moab and I think Tahoe performances. And I don't know. whether I saw her attitude and wanted that for myself or if I already maybe recognized that that's how I felt and seeing that displayed with success was very motivating. I'm not I'm not sure which one that is. But I do I do think that what 2024 Kokodona taught me and then I was able to like exemplify in 2025 is how much of your attitude, how much your attitude can play a role in your performance. You can, you can choose the attitude that you want to have. And I think for me, if I choose to be having fun out there, if I choose to be grateful to the aid station, if I choose to be

grateful to the experience itself, I'm going to perform better no matter what. I mean, in 2022, I got really in my own head about the success that I'd had and I felt very compelled to win everything at all costs. And I had a really humbling, 22. I DNFed the Santa Monica Mountains 100. It was like the inaugural year. I d-n-fed it because I tripped and fell because I was going out way too hard and I busted open my hand. So I DNF that and then I immediately turned around and was like, okay, well, I'm signed up for Cascade Crest and now I really have to win this race. And I was over-trained. I started out way too hard. I took way too much ibuprofen and I wound up with a stomach bleed around mile 70 and I just, I mean, I basically

hiked my way to the finish and then collapsed at the finish line and was carted off in an ambulance to the... Wow. And that for me is what happens when the only thing I focus on is winning. I was not having fun. I was trying way too hard. I was too wrapped up in how things looked to understand how I was actually feeling. And so that year taught me a lot about what not to focus on. So moving forward, it was like, all right, I'm just going to try to have fun. I need to have fun with this. And, you know, obviously with Cocoa in 2024, my goal was not to win. My goal was not to win. My goal was to just get to the freaking finish line. But yeah, I kind of lost sight on, especially on that last climb because it got, I mean, it got really hard. And I didn't emerge from that race being the

kind of person that I wanted to be when things got hard. And when you say last climb, that's the last climb over the course of 250 miles where your, the elevation gain is more than Everest. Yeah. Yeah. But yeah, and it's going up Mount Eldon, which is a pretty, I think it is 9,300 feet. And so you go up about a 2,000 at least foot climb over a couple miles. And so it's tough, especially at the very end. And you're like, you see flag. You see the finish line.

It's like right there. And you just instead of going straight, you just go up a mountain instead. So it's tough. But what I'm hearing is a shift from being outcome oriented to process oriented. Like being caught up in outcomes, I have to win the pressure that you're putting on yourself and how that translates into, you know, tension and overtraining and all the kind of things that you don't want. And then this conscious decision to say, I want to have fun, meaning like it's about the process. Yeah. I mean, over that great a distance, there's so many

variables that come into play. Like, you can't predict what's going to happen and how everybody is going to meet those various obstacles and the unforeseen things that are going to, and, you know, inevitably happen. And some people are going to have good days and other people not so much. And so when lightning strikes and everything kind of works out your way, like you got to just take it. Yep. Yep. Like it's not bankable like, oh, well, this is the way it's going to go every time. No. I think the number one quality that will ensure success at Kocodona is your ability to roll with it. There was a moment when I left the, because I was running with Joe McConaughey and Killian for probably the first 50 to 60 miles. And I enjoyed that pack. I thought that it was, we all felt like peers. Like my

skill sets and their skill sets were very comparable. And so it felt correct for me to be there too. And deciding to leave that was really hard and kind of scary. It's like, all right, I'm banking on the fact that I think I can do better than what these guys are currently doing. And that was a weird moment. But I just kind of decided like, well, you know, you have the resume to be here. You have the resume to lead this race. You've won it for the women. You've only increased in my overall performance. So why can't I be the one leading? Like, I'm just going to roll with it. I'm here now. And, you know, if Killian or if String Bean or if somebody comes up and passes me, like, that's just how, it's a race. I want everybody to do their best on the given day. I don't want to beat everybody

just because they decide to let me. Like, I really am appreciative of what, of Killian, honestly. I'm so grateful that he was the second place person because I knew that he was not going to just let me win. Yeah. He was going to make me work for it. And that thought propelled me when I wanted to walk was like, well, if I walk this, I bet you Killian's running this. And I don't, I don't want to give it to him and he doesn't want to give it to me. Yeah. The headline that also traveled around the world was this why not me kind of like mantra, which is basically what you're talking about, right? Like, why not me? Yeah. And yeah, I mean, I think I've done this in my professional careers of physical therapist where it's, you know, I talk myself out of getting raises or getting promotions because like there is no real reason. Again, my resume dictates that I've had all these trainings and I've done all these things that prove that I'm a correct candidate for this job. And so I think extrapolating that to something like Kocodona, you know, I had won it for the women. I had set the course record last year. I had increased in my overall placement and time. So yeah, I mean.

All signs dictate that there's no real reason, concrete reason for me to not be leading. So why not just take, this is kind of obnoxious sounding, but like take what I've earned. Yeah. It's not promised. I was fully aware that when I took the lead, it was not guaranteed that I'd stay there. But why not take it when I could and just see what happens? This episode is sponsored by BetterHelp. So I've got a whole script here, all of my talking points.

that I organize to do this read, but you know what? I'm just gonna toss them out because I really want to talk from the heart. I am somebody who has a long history with mental health struggles, addiction, avoidant tendencies, depression, insecurity, issues that have really derailed my life

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When you're running in a group and everyone's kind of, you know, there's an asperee decor, like you're kind of working together. Is there a sense of you're competing against these other people? Because it's so long, you're not really racing against anyone else, right? Like, it's, you know, it's going to work out however it works out. And it's not going to be necessarily because of anybody else. It's like these races are, are between you and you and nature. Yeah, I agree. It reminds me in some ways, obviously it's very different than the Barclay. But in some ways, it does feel kind of similar. You know, there's 400 people and you're all just trying to make it to Flagstaff.

You're battling the weather. You're battling fatigue. You're battling wildlife. Like there's a big rattlesnake this year that kind of scared a lot of people. But like, you know, you're battling all the uncertainty that comes with going that far. And I think at Barclay, too, like there's so much uncertainty. You don't know where to go. You don't even know how many books there are.

Like it's, it's, you get a lot, or at least I get a lot of, I don't know, confidence and like, yeah, we can do it like a rah-rah maybe from the people that I'm running with. So it does. It almost feels like a group project where it's like you against the course. It's everybody else against the course. Yeah. Which I, I like those races. And it, yeah, I won. But it, that to me is almost like, who cares? What is it that is going on in your mind when you're, you know, in the harder part of these races. Like, what are you thinking about? What are the mantras? What's the philosophy that's getting you through those darker, really challenging times when you want to quit? Yeah, I mean, I've gotten to a place where I look forward to those times because I don't think one of the things that I've realized over the years is that I want

to make sure that I like who I am when things are tough. Whether that's in sports or whether that's in life, I think you can practice modeling the behavior that you want to demonstrate. And sports for me is a really great avenue for me to practice. You know, those things we were talking about before, being grateful, being fun, things being fun. So yeah, I honestly, I kind of, I look forward to things being hard. And I can't remember, honestly, I feel like I'm just name dropping Courtney a ton, but it might have been a Courtney thing where she has said this is what we came here for. There was a time in Cocodona this year around Sedona where things got really hard physically. I was really the idea that I still had a

hundred miles left. Killian's right behind me. My legs are really tired. I'm really tired. And yeah, I mean, I still have a hundred miles to go and I really want to keep this lead because that would be really cool if I stuck this landing. And that's a lot of pressure. And yeah, things got really hard. And I got, you know, I was starting to go down this negative spiral of like, oh, you're never going to be able to keep this. Oh, you're so tired. Like if what happens if he passes you right now? Like, you're not going to be able to respond. And it's like, okay, hold on. Things are getting really hard. I need to make a plan to address my physical issues right now. Like I was getting some blisters and I was getting hot and I needed some salt. So like, let's make a plan to address those things. And then

like, let's adjust our attitude because I don't learn as much about myself when life's going great because life's going great. I don't need to change anything. But when things are getting hard is when I need to double down and figure out what kind of person I want to present to the world. Yeah, that that idea that you want to like who you are when things are hard and that being a choice is pretty powerful. It's one thing to make that choice like when you're annoyed, you know, waiting in line to order your coffee, it's another thing to make that choice when you're under just absolute physical exhaustion and like, you know, physical pain and duress and fatigue and the like. Yeah, but I mean, for me, it almost feels easier to be happier when I'm physically

under distress than it is to be waiting in line for coffee or on the phone with somebody. Well, it's just now I've practiced the sports part more. Like I honestly need to take that and apply it to my real life. Right. You're like, I can be happy on mile 2.30 of this race. But if you put me on hold for too long, I'm going to be upset. But I mean, again, it's, I need to, yeah, I need to, I need to remember those things too. And I try often. But like when I remember when I was living in Los Angeles, like, it's very hard to live in L.A. And PTs don't make a ton of money. So I was, I was always really overworked and stressed out financially. And I remember the first, or I guess, it was 20, yeah, 24, the first time I did Coca-Dona, I remember being like, holy crap, I was a

not great person. And so one of the ways that I practiced, I guess accidentally, improving my mindset was in work situations when somebody was being rude to me and I was seeing three patients at a time and my boss was saying this and his boss was saying, like all this stress, I would practice not letting that get to me. And because that's, I mean, that is a skill at Cocodona or during these multi or during anything really is like external stress don't let it get to you because if you focus on how stressed out you are it's certainly not going to help you it can motivate you to make a plan for how to manage your current situation but if you're just upset that's not that's not a useful emotion to have being upset and it's just your reaction to things that you don't like that

you wish we're different that you have no control over right and it can be low stakes like somebody's being difficult with me and my job or high stakes where like I don't know if I'm going to survive next a couple miles. Yeah, I mean, kind of. It's funny because we talk about. And not for nothing, somebody passed away at Kocodona. Like somebody died. Yeah. So if you had to translate that into a life lesson for somebody who's watching this or listening to it who, you know, isn't an ultra athlete, maybe they're not even an athlete. Like, what is the kernel of truth that is applicable in our daily lives? I think mindset and response, something I learned in therapy, are the only things that we really have complete control over. The mental kind of therapy, not the physical

therapy. Yeah, mental therapy, not physical therapy. Wait, say it again, because I interrupted you. I'm sorry. I think mindset and responses, my responses that I give to the world are the only things that are under our control. And they are under your control. Even if it feels like things are happening to you, you get to be in charge of how you respond to those things. And nobody is going to make you act anyway. Nobody is going to convince you to do anything that you don't want to do. Yeah, this idea like, that person makes me so mad. Like, they're not making you mad. You're deciding to you're, it has nothing to do with them. It's all about like how you choose to respond or Yeah. One of the things that I've I've had to reframe a lot over the last couple of years is this idea that people cause me to act a certain way or things cause me to act a certain way. And they don't. I choose to allow them to influence me. Yeah. It was really frustrating because when things are hard, I like to blame or I liked to blame. Now I don't like to blame. It's just easier. It's easier. Take some of the stress off of us. But that, it's,

Just because it's a hard pill to swallow doesn't mean it's not true. And so nobody makes you any certain way. You allow them to let you react that way. And so yeah, you're in charge. Don't forget that you're in charge. And you can practice that in your daily, everyday experiences or under extreme sports situations like going and running a 250-mile race. But fundamentally, it's a mindfulness practice. Like when you're present and aware and you can buy yourself that extra moment to really think about how you want to show up in a certain set of circumstances. That's kind of how you put it to use and to work, I think. Yep.

Sleep deprivation. Oh, yeah. So 19 minutes of sleep over 56 hours is insane. Your first nap didn't even happen until you were almost at the 200 mile mark, right? So you hadn't slept at all. Nope. Hadn't. Yeah.

And then that nap was like five minutes. Yeah. It's funny because Courtney, Meg and I were all on a panel. And one of the questions was, do you train for sleep deprivation? And all three of us were like, no. Can you? I don't think you should. I mean, even if you tried to, I don't know that it would make you any better at it.

What my plan is going into the race is I try to really make sure that I'm sleeping like as much as possible, 10 hours, every single night. for a week. Because I know that the night before the race, I'm probably not going to sleep that much. You have to wake up at three. You're just not going to be able to sleep that much. And then I'm obviously, if the goal is get to Flagstaff as quickly as possible, that means that I'm not going to be sleeping. I'm going to be mostly running. And so, yeah, just try to build up that reserve. But yeah, I've always been somebody who's who can function on very little sleep. I do think that that is a superpower that I possess. I was going to, I was going to say, like, I think it is like some people can do it.

Some people can do it. Better than others. They just can. And I also don't really hallucinate. So I'm just really good at staying awake for a long time and being relatively lucid. And for me, one of the ways that I check to see how okay I am is can I make a stupid comment or like a joke. And if I can, then I'm doing okay. But yeah, for me, my plan, you know, and again, I've done this race two times now.

And I think this was my sixth or seventh 200 mile race. And so I've learned what my body needs with regards to sleep. I'm not going to be someone who's able to plan sleep. I know Jeff Browning, who's a really accomplished multi-day runner, he's like, all right, at mile 87, I'm going to take it 25 minutes. I'm not going to do that. I can't plan these things. So I just go until I'm tired. And once I am literally falling asleep while running, I'm going to curl up on the ground and I'm going to set a timer for five minutes. And if I wake up and I'm not ready to go, I can set another timer for five minutes, but I'm going to, I'm going to do it in five minute increments. I know that when I am ready to sleep, I'm going to be able to fall asleep if I'm actually tired. Usually I, once I start to feel sleepy, I think, okay, well, do I, am I sleepy or am I just bored? Do I need to eat something? Do I need, do I just want to try some caffeine? Do I need to just talk to somebody? Because you're out there a long time by yourself and like, maybe you're just bored. So I usually try to kind of sit with that feeling for, I have a 20 minute rule.

If I notice something, I give it 20 minutes before I decide whether it's something that I need to actually address. And yeah, but every time I, because I took a five minute nap, about 200. And then I took two seven minute naps at somewhere between like 220 and 230. And yeah, each time I was literally unable to keep my eyes open. And the first time I took a nap, I was running into my peasant. pacer because my eyes were closing and I was like drifting into my pacer and it's like okay I need to I need to sleep and I need to sleep right now and shockingly five to seven minutes makes a huge difference like you wouldn't think but yeah suddenly you're like a different person which makes

me think like well maybe a few more five minute naps because it seems like it compensates for so much, right? Yeah. I don't know if my body or my brain maybe just needed to do something else for a minute. Because, you know, all I'm doing is running and eating and drinking and like that's in navigating, I guess. And so you get, you just kind of, it's almost like when your computer is going haywire and you just turn it off and back on again. Like I think that's what I need to do is I just need to reboot for five minutes and then I'm good to go usually. That's so crazy. Yeah. That's all you slept. Yeah, it is pretty weird. I think I only slept, I don't remember what I slept last year. It was under 30 minutes, though, last year. And then in Mammoth 200 that I did in September, I didn't sleep at all. And it was 214 miles. So over the course of 44 or 46, I don't remember what my time was. Zero. You mentioned that you don't really hallucinate, but you did hallucinate in this race. You had kind of a crazy one. This year? Yeah. Did I hallucinate something? Unless I misread. One year, I saw myself.

You saw yourself. Okay, I want to hear about that. But what I read is you met a Native American woman who gave you. Yeah. That was real. Oh, that was real. That was real. Okay.

Yeah. And I did, I'll talk about that because I love that story. I think it's super sick. We'll tell it. And I do know that it was real because I found it on the live stream. I found the moment on the live stream. Oh, you weren't sure that it was real? I knew it was.

But there was a lot of naysayers that said it wasn't. But, okay, so I'm going up the last climb, so Mount Eldon, which I have a personal history with of not having a good time and then deciding I'm going to have a good time with a pacer. So I can offload some of my mental anxiety to that pacer last year. This year there were no pacer's allowed. And so I really liked that idea because I went from failing to succeeding with help. And now I get an opportunity to succeed by myself. So yeah, going into this climb, I was really looking forward. to the story that I was going to get to write.

And yeah, so I'm going around, you know, I start climbing up. You go around Little Eldon first. And then you get to this junction where you're about to start the big climb up to the top of the summit. And it's about five miles or something. And there's this woman in street clothes standing in the middle of the trail in this junction. And I know she's real. And I had a camera person following behind me. And we weren't talking because I didn't want to.

I wanted to do it by myself. I didn't want. So I just pretended like she wasn't there. But I do remember the woman saying, hey, I would like you to not film this. And so there's a moment where you see the woman on the live stream and then the camera turns away. And I found that moment. So it was real. But yeah.

And so this woman is, she starts talking in a, it's like a mix of English and whatever the native language was. But she told me that she was a Hopi woman. And she's holding on to something. And she, you know, it. Her presence was so shocking that she starts talking to me, and I just immediately stop. I'm in the middle of a race, and I'm winning. And I don't know how far Killian is behind me, but, like, I'm stopping right now because it just feels like what I'm supposed to be doing, is I'm supposed to stop and I'm supposed

to receive what this woman is about to tell me. And so she tells me, like, she's not a runner, and she's never followed this race before, but she heard what was happening. she heard that I was leading and she was just flabbergasted. Like, it was amazing what I was doing. And to be told that when you're about to climb up 1,500 more feet is pretty cool, admittedly. And, you know, she told me that like the implications that I had for women in general, like athletes or not, was massive. And it was beyond what I could comprehend.

And I was, you know, I'm just out of my mind. I've slept 19 minutes. And so I'm just sitting here, weeping when this woman is telling me all this stuff. Because it's just, it's like, it was so comforting to hear this. And so she gives me, she's holding, it looks like sand, but she gives it to me and it's cornmeal. And I guess in Hopi culture, that's very symbolic of like community and, yeah, like, I don't know, togetherness and strength. And so for her to give that to me when I needed it most was it was almost like she knew I hated that climb. And she was giving me the strength to do it.

And so she was like, you know, this, I want to give this to you. This is yours. You can do whatever you want with it. And she just gives me this cornmeal. And I'm standing in the little trail holding this cornmeal. I'm just like, I don't know what to do with this. So I put it in my pocket and then I have some cornmeal residue on my hands and I just like wipe it on my thighs. and that's the moment that I decide that I'm climbing this entire thing.

I'm going to run this entire climb. Wow. And I do. And it was awesome. And it was like, it was almost an out of body experience because I, it's almost like the race. Like I would have never predicted that I won this race outright. I would have never in a million years been like,

oh yeah, I'm going to climb the whole Eldon climb. But I did. I mean, I dropped my camera person. My camera person who was fresh could not keep up with me. And I had just run 240 miles. And that was like, I remember in the moment being like, holy crap, like, I'm dropping my camera person.

But just being like, doesn't matter. Like, keep running. Like, you've got to keep running. And so I got, I didn't make it to, well, I did make it to the summit, obviously. But I remember there's a section of single track and it's really beautiful. It's very heavily wooded. There was some snow. And so it was just really magical.

And I remember there's like two little climbs. And then you go down and then there's a forest surface road to get you to the top of Eldon. And at the top of the second climb, I'm still on. single track. I remember I like just stopped and I get my hand in my pocket and I just like take the cornmeal and just yuck it off the side of the cliff. And I don't know, I don't know why I did that, but it just felt like the right thing to do. I remember thinking like this gave me so much strength. Like I want to give. I was thinking about Killian actually because I knew that Killian was somewhere behind me and I also knew from my crew that he was struggling really hard.

And so it's like, well, this is for whoever's behind me. You know, I was given this and now I've I'm good. So like it's time to pass it on. Yeah. It's not yours to hold on to you. It gave you what you needed. Yeah. Now it's time to pass it along. Yeah. Well, not a hallucination. So, so she, she blesses you with this extra. I mean, it feels like a hallucination. It felt wild. Yeah. I'm going to decide that it still was. I don't care what the live stream said. Like, it's a better story. That's fine. I just magically had sand. But she, she, yeah, the ineffable was made.

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AG1 flavor sampler in your welcome kit with your first AG1 subscription an $82 value. That's drinkag1.com slash rich roll. What have you learned about human potential? Like you've tapped into something that I would suspect, you know, I don't know if I were five or eight years ago, what you wouldn't have imagined you were capable of. Certainly not. I think it's kind of what we've been talking about is I shouldn't assume that I'm not able to do something just because the data doesn't necessarily support it. Like again, if we're looking at my spreadsheet, I was 61.30. And obviously I beat that by, I don't do public math, but I beat that by a considerable amount.

I mean, I did 56 hours. I knew that I'd put in a lot of work. It wasn't foolish optimism. But it was, Kelyan Korth calls it delusional self-belief. Like, it's not necessarily delusional. I think we're talking down on ourselves a little bit. But like, I had put in the work. I had had success previously.

I had shown improvements. I think what drove me at this coca dona was a curiosity more than it was anything else. Like, all right, well, I'm running really well right now. How long can I run this well? I don't think that trying to discover that outer limit, that's not going to be something that I need to chase. I think I'm just going to naturally get there by being curious. But I think, too, this year's coca don't know is so fascinating because if you do look at Killian Corth, who I'm going to give his flowers to you, like nobody picked him. I didn't even pick him to win

because he's never had a successful race here. You know, he has allergies and he tore his hamstring and he's DNF this race twice and then finished in like 20th once. How in the world, he PR'd that race by 24 hours. Oh, wow. I didn't realize that. Like wild stuff.

A day. A day, a full day. Like, I'm not an idiot for not picking you. I was just using logic. But I don't know. I think that the chase for human potential does involve some sort of like, it does involve some sort of, well, why not? Like some sort of delusional version of self-belief kind of has to be there in order for you to believe that you could accomplish something that nobody else has.

Well, there's the belief and then there's the objective potential that somebody has, right? In order to tap into that potential or manifest it, you need that belief. And the more the deeper, you know, that you want to tap into it, the more kind of, you know, the more kind of, kind of elevated the belief has to be. But fundamentally, like, we all have untapped potential, right? Like, you've been able to tap deeply into yours. But, you know, could have gone, like, it's not like you were running competitively, collegiately, and have been your entire life. Like, something, some switch could have gotten flicked and you would have never even gone into running, you know, and you would have lived your whole life, not knowing that, like, you

You had this capacity, you know what I mean? Yeah. All right. Well, let's take it back. I want to hear the, you know, the hero's journey, the origin story. You're from Birmingham, Alabama, Southern Girl. Yep. Were you like athletic as a kid?

Were you playing sports or no? I was playing sports. Yeah. I would say I was good at exactly zero sports. But what I lacked in skill, I made up for in enthusiasm. I played basketball. in soccer, I would say the most. And both of those are sports that involve running in some capacity.

Right. But I tried out for the cross-country team in high school and I did not make it because I was too slow. You didn't make it. You didn't make it. You didn't make the cross-country team. Yeah. You had to run five miles and I think it was an hour.

And I did not do that. Usually there aren't even tryouts because like no one wants to even do that sport. I don't think I was formally cut, but it was kind of this understanding of like, if you can't do this, you don't need to come back. So I didn't make it. Or I saw myself out. I feel like you need to go back and visit Coach Gaines. Yeah.

Oh, I see. I know. I know who it was. At least send an email. Yeah. Hey, by the way, I'm not sucking now. Yeah. No, I mean, I think I always liked running if there was a purpose.

I didn't understand that running could be the purpose at the time. But, but yeah, I played sports, but I wasn't very good at them. I was overweight as a kid. Had zero self-esteem at all. And so one of the things, it's my origin story with running is a little bit muddy. Because one of the big reasons why I got into running was actually because I was anorexic for a while. So my junior year to my senior year, a lot of personal drama and family drama and relationship drama happened. And I just like, I had had poor self-esteem growing up mostly around my body image.

I was I was really good friends with a girl who was literally a model. So I was kind of always getting seconded because everybody really wanted to talk to her. And I was just like the funny fat kid kind of thing. And what was going on at home that was contributing to the low self-esteem or was that outside? Was that just your friend circle that was driving that? I don't think anybody was saying anything. I think it was just, you know, I growing up in the late 90s, early 2000s, there were people on the covers of magazines and they did not look like me.

In the sense that like I was overweight and the idea of beauty was not what I looked like. And you know, my parents and my friends and all these, you know, they were always very positive. Like no one ever was like, well, you're fat. So that's why your life sucks. But I told myself that enough that eventually it became true. And so, you know, I had I had a couple different, like I said, family and personal drama that basically convinced me that like, well, if I'm thin,

things will be better and I'll be better and I'll, you know, if I can't have happiness, at least I can have this and like I can be beautiful, you know? And so, and as it turns out, I was, I'm very good at doing one thing. And so the thing that I decided to be good at was not healthy, not healthy. And I discovered running in that way because it was, you know, obviously, we know how calories work and when you exercise, you know, you burn them. And so I, I, I would go to the gym kind of as a way to escape my home life, too. I would just go after school and I would just run on the treadmill for hours. And even when I wasn't calorically meeting my own needs, I could still do it.

And I liked how I felt when I was doing it. And so, you know, obviously that had a short shelf life because eventually I got to a point where I recognized that I needed help. And I was not going to live very long if I kept doing what I was doing. And I wasn't able to stop. out like a maniac, not eating at all. Belimic, too? No, just enteractic. Thank goodness, because I can't imagine how much more difficult it is to have to manage that, I think.

But it's, I mean, all of them are hard. And all of them I was unable to fix on my own. And I recognized that like, all right, I went to rehab actually twice. And you were when you were in high school still? I had just graduated from high school when I, like, instead of going to college my first year, I went to rehab twice. So I missed the full year. But, you know, I'm, I don't know. For me, it was like I was always going to have to go to rehab twice because I needed to learn it the hard way, as is my custom.

I've been there. I've been there. We fake it. We're like, oh, we'll be fine. I just need to get out of here so I can go back to doing my thing. Yeah. Get these people off my back. Exactly.

Like, they don't know what they're talking about with talking about my feelings. And so, you know, I faked it for three months. I got out. Within a month, I was like, wait a second. I'm still miserable. I still hate this. I'm still lying to my friends. I'm still lying to myself. And I don't want to live this way anymore. Like I want to believe that my life does not have to be this grim. And at the same time, I loved the confidence that running gave me. Even when I wasn't feeling properly,

and even when I was like early in my eating disorder and I didn't look any differently, I felt more confident and I felt more capable after I ran. And so I knew after once I got into rehab the second time, I knew I was like, okay, I need to figure out how to do this safely when I get out of here. Because I obviously just tried to do it unsafely again and got the same result. So if I want this to be a part of my life, if I want to use this to build confidence, I need to figure out how to do it properly so that I can do it forever. Yeah. Well, psychologically, they're both ways of exerting control, whether it's through food or whether, you know, movement, exercise, fitness, in these things. And if there's, you know, chaos at home or whatever, it's a, it's a, it's a,

it's a very comforting. Yeah. I choose this. Yeah. Anything can be unhealthy, you know, so. Yeah. Too much of a good thing is like learning how to do it in a healthy way. Yeah. Is still confronting you with that control impulse and forcing you to figure out how to balance that again. like the obsessive version of it. You do it by running 250 miles. Yeah, super normal. It took me a while to, you know, I got out of rehab and I was healthy and my brain was still just like halfway in and halfway out. But at least I was halfway in.

And then over the years, like I realized that if I want to be, like I'm good at running. I was always, you know, as soon as I started long distance running in particular, I ran my first marathon. as a freshman in college. And I did that and I was like, holy crap, like I did pretty well. And I also don't feel that tired. So I think I might be good at this. And then I realize if I want to be good at this, then I have to treat eating like it's a part of my job.

And so it took me probably four years to figure out how to do that, how to bring enough fuel on runs where I wasn't bonging. And obviously that's a work in progress as the thing. things get longer and longer. And now I've just somewhat outsourced it to professionals who can who can just put gas in the car and I just run. But, you know, too, I think that is a skill in it of itself because I remember at Keanti, precision puts out data. And they had three athletes there. I was one and then there were two more. And they put out all of our grams of carbs per hour that we were doing. And with eating disorders or any addiction, a lot of it is a comparison game.

And I remember, you know, mine was 60, a person's was 120 and then another person was 80. And my first thought was like, how do I get that number higher? Like they're all here and I'm down here. And like maybe if I get that number higher, I could unlock even more potential. And that was my first thought. And then my second thought was like, holy shit have I come a long way? Because if I were still ill, my first thought would be like, I only did 60. I'm better because I did.

less. And I'm, I'm somehow this like superior person because I can do the same thing on less. And that's like, yeah. And so I remember in that moment being really proud of like how far I've come. Yeah, it represents this shift in perceiving running not as a like a weight management strategy or weight loss strategy, but as a, you know, like a performance, you know, minded relationship. So I've come a long way. Yeah. Come a long way. Because I mean, but I'm sure people say to you all the time, like you traded your addictions or this is just an addiction. I don't think this one's going to kill me fast enough. That one, I mean, anorexia until like fentanyl came around was the, or I guess eating disorders were the number one mental health killer in human beings. I don't think if I'm, you know, and I say this again, understanding that people die during ultramarathons sometimes. But like, I think I'm a little bit safer on this one.

So what is your message directly to the person who is struggling with an eating disorder right now? I mean, I guess it's sort of similar to, you know, running is just this like life in a day, right? Why not believe that it can get better? You know, why not choose right now to make the choice that has the potential for long-term positive effects? for me with anorexia I mean my my number one issue was intake once it was there it was my job to work through the feelings associated with you know eating um so all I could really ever do is just like all right like believe that this is the right thing and like don't try to undo it like don't try to oh I ate something now I can't eat for the next day or now I have to go and I have to like work it off in some way. Like, no, like, the correct thing to do is like, do the right thing and continue that up with doing all the right things and believe that it's going to get better. Believe that you're going to get to a place where you truly believe that nobody cares how you

look. And, like, you love the person that you are regardless of how you actually look. So, yeah, just do the right thing and believe that it'll get you to a place that you're you want to be. Well, you have this joyful relationship with running and and with your sport. And clearly you've figured out how to tap into gratitude and, you know, like the kind of happiness quotient with, you know, this torturous sport. But I would imagine at the beginning, at least, there were times when running was what you would use to punish yourself. Like if you would, oh, like I ate too much and now I have to go run. 20 miles or whatever to work it off. And that's a, that's a negative association. Like,

I have to, I have to like, martyr myself. Yeah. Because I'm bad because I ate whatever I yeah. Yeah. I might have done that some when I was sick. But I think a big part of that actually came when I was like, when I was little because we would do sports. And if you messed up, you'd have to run laps. And like that kind of associated running with this punishment. So it's been fun to kind of take that back of like, nope, this is actually what I think. that way. Yeah, it has. I don't get why. You're in trouble. Now you have to go run. Like running is what you do when you're, you're being shamed. I know. Yeah. So, yeah, I mean, I think when I was, when I was struggling with my stuff, um, I don't think running, I don't know if I ever really, I used that

as an example earlier, but looking back, I don't ever think I used it as a punishment. I would always do the run because I enjoyed it. I would just follow it up with behaviors that were not productive. Um, But I always, I don't know what, I guess it was that switch that flipped when I needed it to and I needed to feel good about something. Running was there to be like, actually, you feel good when you do this. Because yeah, I've never necessarily looked at it as like a way to punish myself. Yeah, that's good. Which is nice. Yeah.

There's so many different kinds of running. There's the, you know, recess, you're in trouble run. There's track and field. There's cross country, you know, the 100 meter. dash. And then there's the super long ultra trail runs, which I associate with being perhaps the most primal, like kind of DNA embedded sort of type of running because of our ancestry as persistent hunters. Yep. Is there a spirituality to any of it, like just being in the largesse of nature out there?

I mean, I'm thinking of your stints in rehab. Like, I don't know what the healing modality was, but, you know, in typical 12-step addiction recovery, you're introduced to ideas of surrender and turning it over to a higher power. And it is a spiritual program fundamentally, at least the 12-step version of it is. And so I'm curious around your relationship with that with respect to your recovery for meeting disorders. and your relationship with, like, being an ultra-runner and how, like, your immersion in nature contributes to that. I think that being, particularly being either alone in nature,

especially when I'm way out there, or with being with a small group of people that I love and trust. When I'm out in the middle of nowhere, solo or in a group, it feels so big and it feels so big, and it feels so beyond me. It's like, it's insane. I don't know what my stances necessarily on religion, but it's hard not to just feel like in awe of however this came about.

But it allows you to inhabit on wonder more easily. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. And there's undeniably like this, it's clear like you're doing what you're supposed to be doing. Like you're living in integrity with. who you are, like you're on your correct path.

I think so. Yeah. Yeah. And I think to particularly when you do get an opportunity to share that experience with somebody else, even, even Kocodona, I was one on one experiencing it with my Pacers and my crew. But I feel a connection to every person that even towed that start line because we all were in the same place trying to do the same thing. And so I've talked with Killian quite a bit about this idea of like universal human consciousness. I don't know if that's necessarily tied to spirituality, but that is something that I fully think is I understand that part of it. Like the oneness of everything.

Yeah. I'm very into like this. It's almost like a yogi principle of like we're all in this together. You know, and what you put out into the world, you're going to. I like to believe that you'll get that back. And so if I'm putting out, you know, if I'm, if I'm choosing to be this positive happy person and I'm putting that, if I'm throwing the cornmeal off the top, I'll get the cornmeal back at some point. And I'm not doing it so that I can have this quid pro quo of like, well, if I'm good, then I get stuff to like, no, I'm doing it because I think it feels like the right, it feels like the correct path for me to be on. I feel like I want to give back to the world that's given me so much. And assuming a just world, like, maybe. Maybe there's a chance that I can get something back from that, too. Yeah.

I think that the reason why so many addicts in recovery, you know, end up at the starting line of these ultrass, you know what I mean? There's, it's, it's too lazy to just say, oh, they transferred their addiction. I think that fundamentally, you know, addicts are seekers and they're seeking answers to very uncomfortable and difficult questions. and they end up doing it in very unhealthy ways and bottom out. But they're still seekers. And I think these ultra races are like incredible, like spiritual odyses that force you to confront yourself in ways that you can't run away from. So there are opportunities for self-understanding.

And they have their moments of transcendence. You know, you can't go 250 miles. without meeting yourself exactly who you are. Haggard and stacking rocks. Yeah, like having to confront, like, you know, there's, you just cannot run away from whatever you're compartmentalizing. It all comes up, right? And you have to contend with that.

And then you have these like, you know, breakthrough moments of feeling like you're at one with everything. And they are transcendent by, by nature. I think they are really like, they're not athletic competitions. They're like, they're more like psychedelic. journeys. Kind of. Kind of. You know what I mean? I definitely, I agree. I feel like that's part of the allure for, you know, somebody who comes from that, like, you know, kind of struggle. Yeah. I think for me, running has become this thing where it makes me a better person.

And whether that's, you know, I think particularly where you have a good point with, you're unable to run away from who you are when you're out there by yourself. Like, there are thoughts that are going to come up and you alone have to manage and deal with those thoughts. And that's the opposite of addiction, which is using something to run away from whatever it is that makes you uncomfortable. Like you're running towards the thing that makes you uncomfortable. When I sign up for a race, I fully understand that at some point out there, I'm probably going to cry. And it is, it could be good. It could be bad. It could be I'm having to like during Cascade Crest. I mean, that race, during the time, it was the worst and I was very unhappy. But like, looking

back, I'm so grateful for that experience because it showed me that I am focusing on the wrong thing. And when I was out there, I very quickly came to the conclusion. You know, I'm yacking up my guts at mile 80. And I'm just like, boy, focusing on winning, not making me very happy. Like, this is something that I'm going to have to do a lot of uncomfortable work on improving. And without that negative experience, without signing up for that race, I would not have gotten that opportunity. And so, you know, again, I don't think I'm endorsing everybody going out and running ultramarathons in order to find their nirvana. But I think we are in a society where we can pick up our phones and we can, we're talking about offloading our response. Like, we can offload the responsibility of looking inward onto like, well, I'd rather watch this reel of a guy punching a penguin. Like we're almost addicted to not being uncomfortable nowadays. And I think that when we're sitting by ourselves, and were forced to not turn away from our uncomfortable thoughts, that's when a lot of work is done.

And that is what running does for me. Maybe I would have found it with something else, maybe cycling or maybe meditation or maybe knitting. I don't know, like whatever. But I just, I hope that we become a society that's a little more okay with confronting uncomfortable thoughts. And then not turning away from them, the moment that we notice that's what we're doing.

Like, they're uncomfortable because it means that something needs to change. And you have the power to enforce that change. Sure. But you have to give yourself the space to even notice it first. What's your pitch to the somebody who's now flirting with the idea of getting involved in this world? I mean, please don't go out there untrained and die. But like, I don't know. Why not try to do, you're going to learn a lot more about who you are if you try to do something that sounds crazy than you are if you're just going to

sit there and wonder what would happen if you were to try. Because, I mean, I flirted with the idea of doing Coca-a-Dona for years before I signed up for it. And then I remember in 2024, I didn't have the money to do it. I didn't know how I was going to do it. But I was like, you know what? I'll figure it out. I'm just going to sign up for it. And it wound up being the start of this incredible journey that I'm so stoked happened to me. It changed my life. It's fair to say that. I mean, it changed my life. And it changed it only for the better. And it's given me tons of. opportunity sense. So yeah, I mean, if you're if you're flirting with the idea of doing something

that sounds crazy, it probably means that you're thinking about things the right way. What's coming up for you? What are you training for right now? The UTMB going to that. So that sounds crazy to me. The UTMB. Yeah, the Super Bowl of Ultra Running. Yeah. And again, I'm not, I, it's the first time I've done this race. I have no expectations on any placements. My goal is to have a good time that week. I think it'll be really fun. I'm going, I get an opportunity to go out well in advance.

I'll be leaving at the end of July to go and I'll do the whole loop before I do the race. So I'm, you know, I'm doing something crazy, but I'm setting myself up to at least be able to complete it safely. So I feel like I'm, I'm trying to put myself in a spot where I can perform to my potential while still remaining curious about what it's going to look like

when it's all said and done. Yeah. So I'm really excited. Well, you're super inspiring. You're really a bright light in this world. And I appreciate the service-oriented kind of commitment to giving back, like understanding that your success comes with not just a responsibility to make this world better and make it more accessible and aspirational for people,

but that that is like just it's not a responsibility like a burden it's more like oh this is this is the way of living you know what i mean like this is a way of life and i think that's applicable to all of us in whatever kind of you know context yeah is it the spider-man quote that's to who much is given much is expected that's something that i've had to really try to apply is like I've been I have been given a lot and so there should be a lot of things that are expected of me and I am in a place where I need to try to do them when I can I think you have been doing this for a long time but I also feel like you're just starting yeah certainly this part it's pretty cool yeah well I'm a super fan oh stop it this was this was really fun yeah thank you for having me thanks for doing this

and best of luck at you, T.M. Thank you. Cheers.