The Rich Roll Podcast - Rebecca Rusch Is The Queen Of Pain

Episode Date: June 24, 2019

This week I sit down with Rebecca Rusch – one of the world’s greatest adventure athletes. Rebecca is a 7-time World Champion, best-selling author, activist, and Emmy winner. In addition to superhuman success on a mountain bike, she has performed at the elite level across a multitude of disciplines including rock climbing, white water rafting, and multi-day adventure events like Eco Challenge. Still crushing it at 50, Rebecca is redefining human capability in real time. Beyond athletics, Rebecca is a TEDx speaker, author of Rusch To Glory* and the founder of the Be Good Foundation. In addition, she is the event producer of Rebecca’s Private Idaho, a bike race in her hometown of Ketchum, and the protagonist in Blood Road, an extraordinary documentary that chronicles her 1,800 km mountain bike adventure along the Ho Chi Minh Trail to reach the site where her U.S. Air Force pilot father was shot down in Laos more than 40 years earlier during Vietnam. Dubbed ‘The Queen of Pain' by Adventure Sports magazine, Rebecca was named #6 on Active.com’s list of the World's Top 100 Athletes, Singletrack.com’s Mountain Biker of the Year, Sports Illustrated Adventure Racing Team of the Year, and Outside magazine’s Top 20 Female Athletes of the Year. Rebecca's accomplishments are beyond impressive. But today's conversation lives beyond elite performance to explore things like curiosity. The richness of adventure. Feeding the soul. Continuous personal growth. Redefining age. Contributing to the greater good. And giving back. But most of all, this is about what can be gleaned by leaning into the unknown. And living outside the comfort zone. Because there is so much more to this incredible woman than athletic prowess. I thoroughly enjoyed my experience with Rebecca. My hope is that it leaves you re-evaluating your personal limits. And inspired to live more adventurously. The visually inclined can watch our entire conversation on YouTube here: bit.ly/rebeccarusch450 (please subscribe!) Peace + Plants, Rich

For me, I didn't choose to go to Alaska and try to survive sub-zero temperatures just because I wanted to risk frostbite and see what would happen. It was that I really wanted to experience the Iditarod Trail in Alaska and to howl at the moon with the wolves and to be so deep into the last frontier in wilderness. I feel like the pain cave or suffering, there is an ancient, I mean, this is nothing new, where physical deprivation or, you know,

whether it's, you know, fasting or whether it's going into a sweat lodge, you know, affecting your physical body, for me, is a way to kind of reach inside my soul and access the inner body by sort of, some may call it torture or suffering or going into the pain cave physically. That actually allows me to access who I am emotionally. And it sounds a little strange, but like I said, there's examples through history of people accessing their mind by, you know, changing their body.

That's Rebecca Rush, this week on The Rich Roll Podcast. The Rich Roll Podcast. Greetings, podcast citizens, podcastinans, podcast enthusiasts across planet Earth. My name is Rich Roll. I'm your host. This is my podcast. Welcome or welcome back. Good to be with you here today to spend a couple hours with one of the world's greatest adventure athletes. This is not hyperbole, people. Seven-time world champion, best-selling author, activist, Emmy winner, overall badass, legend herself, Rebecca Rush. Delighted to have her in my studio to share this with you guys today. This woman has truly done it all, from rock climbing to echo challenge to whitewater rafting to absolute superhuman success on a mountain bike and basically everything in between. And now, at 50, she is absolutely killing it, redefining the capabilities of the human mind, the human body,

and the human spirit. Beyond athletics, Rebecca is the event producer of Rebecca's Private Idaho, which is a bike race in her hometown of Ketchum. She is the author of Rush to Glory, her amazing memoir. She's a motivational speaker, a TEDx speaker, a philanthropist. She's the founder of the Be Good Foundation, which we're going to talk about today. And she's also the protagonist in this incredible documentary called Blood Road, which basically chronicles this insane 1,800-kilometer mountain bike adventure that she goes on tracking the Ho Chi Minh Trail. And the idea behind it was to discover, to reach the site where her father, who was a US Air Force pilot, was shot down in Laos

40 years earlier during Vietnam. It's an amazing movie. We're going to talk about it today. Along the way, Rebecca has been named number six on Active.com's list of the world's top 100 athletes, single tracks, mountain biker of the year, Sports Illustrated's adventure racing team of the year, and she was also named to Outside Magazine's top 20 female athletes of the year. And in 2004, Adventure Sports Magazine dubbed her the queen of pain. I think it is an apt title for her. There's going to be more I want to say about Rebecca in a minute, but first. We're brought to you today by recovery.com.

I've been in recovery for a long time. It's not hyperbolic to say that I owe everything good in my life to sobriety. And it all began with treatment and experience that I had that quite literally saved my life. And in the many years since, I've in turn helped many suffering addicts and their loved ones find treatment. And with that, I know all too well just how confusing and how overwhelming and how challenging it can be to find the right place and the right level of care, especially because, unfortunately, not all treatment resources adhere to ethical practices. by the people at recovery.com who created an online support portal designed to guide, to support, and empower you to find the ideal level of care tailored to your personal needs.

They've partnered with the best global behavioral health providers to cover the full spectrum of behavioral health disorders, including substance use disorders, depression, anxiety, eating disorders, gambling addictions, and more. Navigating their site is simple. Search by insurance coverage, location, treatment type, you name it. Plus, you can read reviews from former patients to help you decide. Whether you're a busy exec, a parent of a struggling teen, or battling addiction yourself, a parent of a struggling teen, or battling addiction yourself. I feel you. I empathize with you. I really do. And they have treatment options for you. Life in recovery is wonderful, and recovery.com is your partner in starting that journey. When you or a loved one need help, go to recovery.com and take the first step towards recovery. To find the best treatment option for you or a loved one, again, go to recovery.com.

Okay, Rebecca. So there's just so much more to this incredible woman than her extraordinary accomplishments. Ordinary Accomplishments. And this conversation is less about things like elite performance and chasing podiums than it is about things like curiosity, the richness of adventure, feeding the soul, personal growth, connection, expanding horizons, redefining age, contributing to the greater good, giving back, sharing experience, and what can be gleaned by leaning into the unknown and living, really living outside the comfort zone. I love this conversation. I think you will too. So let's talk to her. This is me and the great and wonderful Rebecca Rush. Ready to go? I am ready to go. I'm so happy to talk to you.

Thank you for coming out here, Rebecca. Absolutely. You are an unbelievable badass, but you also have this really captivating, compelling story, emotional story. And I look forward to digging into it with you. Yeah, me too. Yeah. But before we even do that, you just came from Alaska, right? You did the Iditarod.

I did. I did. Not the dog mushing. Yeah, they have a human powered event. So yeah, I did 350 miles of Iditarod trail on a snow bike, a fat bike. Did you do that as part of an organized race or what was the situation? It is. It's the Iditarod Trail Invitational has been going on about seven, seven, this was 18th year. Um, and you can bike, ski, run it and just human powered, however you want to do it. But on the same trail is the dog as the historic dog sled race. Dogs start about a week after. So it's right. How long did that take you? I was almost four days on the trail to cover 350 miles. So it's slow going and it's full

survival mode where you're carrying- You just have all your gear. All your gear on the bike. I think my bike weighed 65 pounds with sleeping bag, stove, navigation equipment, batteries, lighting, basically everything to survive in the alaskan wilderness so that was that was tops of you know in all of my years probably one of the scariest most intimidating most committing expeditions i've ever done because of the elements because it's survival and honestly you know if you're tired and you have to stop, you freeze. It's minus 25 at night there.

So it was one of the few times where I've really feared for my safety, which is why it took me this long to actually do that event. I've been intrigued by it for a long time. But cold is one of my sort of primal fears is being cold. So yeah, it took me a while to get to Alaska in the winter in the wilderness. I had Colin O'Brady in here the other day who just traversed Antarctica. And one of the interesting things that he was sharing about that was that when he's pulling this 375 pound sled behind him, the most important thing is to make sure that you're not overexerting yourself because the minute you start sweating, that's death. So is that a similar thing that you

had to deal with? Absolutely. And I reached out to Colin and some polar explorers and some people I knew who had spent time in those elements to just try to educate myself and ask about equipment and safety. And yeah, absolutely. Swe sweating is death in sub-zero temperatures. And so there's this constant management of what you're wearing, what you're taking, even if your hands are sweating. My hands are sweating thinking about it right now. But yeah, simple things like eating, drinking, taking care of your skin, taking care of your body, those become paramount.

And the physical exertion is almost the last part of the equation. Right. Was there a moment where you were really in danger or did you manage it all well? I was super, I had this heightened focus because I was really scared about getting wet. You're crossing open water all the time. You're on ice that's cracking underneath you. Your foot falls in and gets wet. You're done.

Yeah, that is a near-death situation. Did you have sat phones or were you able to communicate with anybody if you got into a problem? I had a Garmin inReach satellite tracking device that I could send text messages out. And yeah, my husband was aware of where I was, you know, I had the race director's number, but even so it's going to be hours or days till somebody gets to you. But I did have, I did have that as a, you know, Garmin device as a safety backup because yeah, I don't do sports to risk my life. It's not my motivating factor. And so I did try to have all these kind of bailout plans, but yeah, moments of fear and terror and being worried for myself. Absolutely.

Every night when the sun went down, the temperature plummets and I went to pretty dark, physically and emotionally dark place just because it's Alaska in the winter in the dark and it's going to be minus 20. And if you make one mistake, it can be very costly. And probably the scariest night was the last night I was out. I had to sleep out in the field and I had planned to, there are little small huts every 50 to 80 miles or so. And my plan was never to have to sleep outside and really use my equipment. But I was in a point where I was too far between and stumbling and falling over and, you know, with sleep deprivation.

And so I did sort of have to grapple back and forth. I don't want to sleep outside. I have to sleep outside and spend a couple hours doing that. And I did sleep out and, uh, you know, in the snow, um, minus subzero temperatures and, you know, put tree branches down as a like full survive, put tree branches down as an insulator from the ground and my sleeping pad and put all my clothes on and got inside the sleeping bag and, and passed right out and fell asleep and got some great rest. But I think that was a breakthrough for me to learn to trust the equipment and trust that it was going to work and I could use it appropriately. So I'll be back. I'm already planning.

Oh, really? Yeah. Of course. Well, I can do it better. It was a little messy. I finished. I was the first woman. I was 10th overall.

But I was inefficient. So now I want to go back with some efficiency and confidence. And it probably was, other than Idaho where I live, the most beautiful place I've ever been on earth. Wow. When you say 10th overall, is that across all different disciplines? Like people cross-country skiing? For the cyclists. How many people?

I think 49 or 50 started. And in the bike, in sort of my division, 20 finished. 14 got evacuated for frostbite on the first night. Lots of people drop out, and then you have to, if you drop out at certain spots where you basically have to pay a bunch of money and hire a bush plane to come in and get you. Wow. Certain spots where you basically have to pay a bunch of money and hire a bush plane to come in and get you. Wow. So.

So people are riding bikes. They're cross-country skiing. Are people just doing it by foot too? They're doing it on foot and they're towing a sled, you know, behind them. It sort of tends to be that the cyclists tend to finish first in the event, you know, as far as a human powered. And then ski and foot are the sort of the next fastest people. But it takes a while. If you're moving on the bikes, five miles an hour average is a really fast speed for a snow bike. So you take the mileage and you have to totally change your road cycling, anything mean, road cycling, anything else where 15, 20 miles an hour is, yeah.

Yeah, that all gets thrown out the window, your perspective on what it is to go fast. Well, and then you're like, oh, I only have 10 miles to the next checkpoint, but that may be four hours. Right. Wow. And what did you do about hydration and nutrition? about hydration and nutrition? Like, wouldn't your water bottles just free? Would you have to stop and, and, you know, melt snow for water or how did that work? Yeah, the food and the water. And that's the, that's where I feel like I failed myself. I didn't do very well with it. And I talked to Colin and all those other people about what kind of foods don't freeze out there. And

of course, no gels, no, you know, anything like that. And the way it is, you carry your first, you start with a bunch of food and then there were two food drops that we had sent five pounds each that you, that were air dropped into certain spots along the course. And in there you could have food, batteries, hand warmers, um, basically just consumable things. So I had pre-made all this stuff like little peanut butter balls and date balls and cut everything up really small, lots of cheese and fats and high density foods. And basically I hated all of it. I didn't want to eat it. I couldn't digest it. You know, it's all frozen. You can't take a bite out of something. People lose fillings because you can't. So everything was cut bite size. But food and water was a real problem for me.

So Colin had told me you need to eat 4,000 to 5,000 calories a day, like in the Arctic. That's what you have to do. And I was probably getting in 1,500. Wow. And so I'm eating myself, basically. I'm burning my own fat. And the energy levels were really low because I didn't do well with food and drink. And then Camelback is worn underneath your clothes, all, you know, the hoses in your armpit. And so even to take one drink, you unzip 17 layers, pull your face mask down.

And so I got lazy and it was just like, I don't feel like drinking anything. And so I would change that and I would carry, I did have a thermos and that was kind of my saving grace where I'd get hot water and then that was easiest to drink, but you have to stop to eat and drink. It's not like on a bicycle where you can grab something out of your Jersey and, and stuff it in your face. And you're alone the whole time, right? The solitude of that must be a challenge. Yeah, I was completely alone. And I do a lot of training alone, and it is a bit of my meditation, my therapy. I don't mind being alone, but this was truly alone. You're like, wow, I am really out there.

I mean, I howled at the wolves. I was howling at the moon, literally. Did you have predatory run-ins with predatory wildlife? I saw lots of evidence of it. Wolf prints as big as a saucer along the bike tracks and tons of evidence. I saw probably 25 moose. I don't know what the plural of moose is. You don't want to fuck with the moose. No, the moose. And you know, I saw them and they're on the trail and they were walking away and moose can be really dangerous. So yeah, wolf moose. Um, but I, I wasn't scared of the animals as much as I was. I didn't feel that kind of fear or the fear of being alone. It was more the fear of the elements. And, you know, if your bike breaks or something happens, you really do

have to be super self-sufficient. So that was my biggest fear. And when you finish, then the traditional Iditarod's getting ready to go, right? Yeah, exactly. And you got to see them off. We did see them off. And I was really intrigued by, I was pretty intrigued by the dog-human relationship. You wrote about that on Instagram. Yeah, I went and visited. Martin Boozer is one of the most famous Alaskan dog sledders. He's just completed, I think, his 38th Iditarod.

How long has that race been going on? 50, 50 years or something, you know, and he's done almost every one of them. I mean, that kind of longevity is pretty amazing. So I actually went to his kennels and visited and met the dogs and I'm reading his book now because it's just such an interesting, historic, one, the history of that trail is intriguing to me but also the relationship between an animal and a human as athletes is fascinating yeah it's like symbiotic thing right i mean you have dogs i have dogs when i put on my running shoes or the dogs see my bike they are just jumping out of their skin and they want to run. And it's, my trail runs are elevated by their

joy. And, you know, it's just seeing a being that just is like, I want to run. Like, I don't always feel that way when I head out for a run. I don't know if you do. There's like, I'm going for a run. I'm trying to be motivated. Dogs always want, they're good to go. They're like up in the morning, happy, good to go. From zero to 60, no warmup needed. It's kind of a cool energy. So whenever I'm in doubt, it's like, what would Diesel do? He's one of my dogs. And that race takes off and there's people that are still finishing your race, right? So they're passing each other.

Yeah. So I did the short version of the Iditarod Trail. So I basically did, you know, the 350-mile version. The whole trail start to finish, and this is what the dog sleds do, is 1,000 miles. And so I think only four riders have completed so far the 1,000. This year, they have finished. And, yeah, they get caught by the dog sled teams if you're doing the longer course. And so then you're all intermixed together, And there's a lot of respect from what I understand

between the mushers, you know, seeing someone human powered out there. They're just like, wow. You do that without dogs. A lot of respect. Yeah. That's interesting. Wow. Well, what a cool adventure. And now we're in warm California. Yeah, I know. Super warm. When did you get back? I got back. Pretty recently, right? Yeah, recently, like 11 or 12 days ago. So I'm still kind of, I think my temperature regulation is a little bit off. Yeah.

Waking up with like night sweats. And I don't know if that ever happens to you after a really big event. I think my body is still kind of cleansing and purging. But I'm not surprised that you're like, okay, I'm going back. Here's what I'm going to change. Here's what I'm going to do better. I'm surprised. I surprised myself because of the cold, but I have the confidence now that the gear works and I have the mentality for it. And so, yeah, I can do it better. I don't doubt that you have the mentality for it. Speaking of which, I want to really get

into the Ho Chi Minh Trail story, but I think the best way to do that is really to just tell your story from the beginning, growing up in a suburb outside of Chicago and what that was like and the relationship that you had and didn't have with your dad that kind of informs, you know, this adventure that, you know, you're perhaps best known for. Absolutely. Yeah. A Midwestern kid. Well, my dad was in the Air Force. He was a navigator in F-4 Phantom, but he was shot down when I was just three. So mom, sis, and I grew up in suburbs of Chicago, three girls. And at that time, mom is a single parent. That wasn't really as common as it is now. And so she was at work all day, and my sister and I were really kind of left to fend for ourselves.

No fault of my mom. She had to work, but we really did develop an independence. Is your sister older or younger? She's a couple years older. And she's in the Air Force now. She's a general now. Wow. Yeah, General Bannister.

I still call her sis. Two badass women. Your mom did something right. I think a lot of what she did, absolutely. And I think a lot of my sister, our paths are, I think because of my mom, seeing this example of really hardworking, independent, working in computer programming in a men's field there was never like oh girls don't do that or it was just this example of you work super hard and go do what you want to do and i took a sports route you know my sister took uh you know the military and more intellectual route

in some ways but i still do feel like we picked up the same skill base from my mom just by her leading through example. But you're very much your father's daughter. You really seem to embody a lot of the characteristics that kind of defined his character being this adventurer and this explorer. Well, thanks for saying that. I didn't know that until recently. And it has brought up an interesting question of nature versus nurture. And, you know, is your upbringing what shapes you or, you know, your genes and what's in your DNA? And I do believe it's a combination of both. the impact of my mother being there day to day to learn those traits from her, I didn't realize, and my sister as well, she's followed in my dad's footsteps in the military and service. And she and I obviously both inherited a big piece of him. I inherited the wandering, you know, living out of your car guy. Right.

And she inherited the service and dedication to the Air Force. And I didn't realize that until I did ride the Ho Chi Minh Trail and Blood Road. And well into my 40s, decided my adventure lifestyle had finally brought me to go search for something a lot bigger than a podium. Well, we're going to work our way up to that. But it begins on a track in Illinois, right? You started out like as a runner. Yeah. I found running, you know, it's really interesting. You know, you have kids and high school and junior high for girls is a tough time. Yeah. I mean, it's tough for anybody. I have a 15-year-old daughter.

Yeah. So for anyone, you're trying to figure out what do you wear to school? How do you fit in? You know, who are my people? And, you know, I was in the band. I was kind of a band geek and some of that stuff, but I found, I found athletics and I really do feel like it was and continues to be a savior for me. Um, I had body image issues as a young girl and, you know, my neighborhood is kind of funny story. My neighbor who was in the cross country team, she's like, well, you know, if you join the cross country team, I didn't know what it was. You get a free track suit and it's like those cottons matching, you know, hoodie, sweat pants and, and sweat top.

They're pretty cool. They're coming back around now. So you get a free sweat suit and you'll never get fat. And as a, you know, junior high school girl going into high school and like, oh, that sounds pretty good. And so that was the motivation. The cute tracksuit, stay skinny. Yeah. And it's not the wrong, not the right motivation, but it definitely put me in a place to find a community and friends and confidence and, you know, work ethic and all these things that I've carried with me my whole entire life.

Yeah. Did you distinguish yourself as an athlete at that age? Yeah, I was, um, ended up being all state and, you know, had, had success in the cross country running team and it was great. I loved it. It was kind of what I lived for and the sense of freedom and running around in the woods that was fed every part of me that is still alive and well. Was there a conscious sense that this is what you wanted your life to be about at that early age? It was the first thing in my life that I found I belonged to and that it was fun. It was super hard. There was the reward of working in a team and winning something and having a medal put around your neck.

And probably even bigger than that was the exploration of the cross-country trails. It's different than a track. Right. So you go to a cross country meet and every meet is in a different place, a different park that you haven't run around in. And I think that's a really primal need for me is to explore. And so, yeah, there was a sense that I'll always do this. And college sort of put the stopper on that because I had a coach who was a real asshole and just didn't,

it didn't work. And so I quit and, you know, that was the first of many times where I felt lost in my life, but then, you know, found cycling at that time, um, road cycling and, and eventually rock climbing, you know, it's led to multiple sports, you know. Right. Well, you're best known for your pursuits on a mountain bike. But what's crazy about you is that you've distinguished yourself in all manner of sports from, you know, adventure racing, whitewater rafting, cross-country skiing. Like, you pretty much do it all. But it kind of began with you deciding that you were going to go into this adventure world, right? Like what was first? Like how did this whole adventure begin? And you're right. There is a common thread of all these sports that feed the same kind of need

in me instead of just sticking to one sport. But where it all began, I believe was, um, in Chicago, I was working at a health club. I had a marketing degree in kinesiology and was like, Oh, I'm going to work in sports fitness or something that seemed like a logical transition. And they had an indoor rock climbing wall and the guy down at the wall was kind of cute and the wall looks sort of intriguing. So I went and I learned to rock climb. And that was really the beginning of me feeling like I needed to leave the Midwest and I needed to climb up rocks. Right. And so climbing really was the outdoor, my invitation to the outdoors and understanding. Like the dirtbag lifestyle.

I lived in my car. I stopped shaving my armpits. You know, I became a super dirtbag for a while. You got this epic Bronco. I don't have it anymore. I've seen it. My only regret in life. I can't believe you don't have that still.

Those things cruise around Malibu. They're, you know, like they get, they get renovated and sell for ridiculous amounts of money. It's my only regret in life is selling the Bronco, but we got to let it go. Well, if that's your only regret, then that's pretty good. So you're like in your early 20s and just head west in the Bronco? I didn't have the Bronco at the time. I headed west into Acura Integra,

was where I left Chicago. It's okay that you don't have that one anymore. That vehicle. And slept and lived out of it. And went to the summit. He went all these places. And I landed a climbing job in California where I got a job at Adventure 16, which I don't think it's around anymore. No, it is.

Oh, is it still? Yeah, there's two of them here in LA. In Costa Mesa, I worked at A16 and taught rock climbing at Joshua Tree. and taught rock climbing at Joshua Tree. And that was really life-changing for me to just sleep out in the desert and have, quote, unquote, a job doing that. And then I helped found Rock Creation, which is our climbing gyms. There's one in Costa Mesa, one in Santa Monica. And so I was part owner and founder of those climbing gyms in the late 90s.

And so that was, okay, here I'm using my business degree. I'm managing and running gyms. And it's like an outdoor sort of sport. Right. So that was the dream job. There probably weren't that many women in this world at that time, right? No, there weren't. So what was that like being part of that culture? I've never considered, you know, it's really only, I've never considered from my upbringing,

men or women don't do this job. I mean, you can definitely look around the room and go, oh, there aren't that many women climbing. And instead of me sort of being like, you know, well, that sucks. It would be, well, let's invite some more in. And so that has tended to be my mentality with cycling. Well, this is your whole thing now, right? The inclusivity and trying to, you know, broaden these, broaden the doors, you know, make those doors swing wide open for more women to get involved. It's pretty great. I mean, you see it now you go to a climbing gym and there's tons of kids and girls and everybody everybody's climbing and riding bikes and having fun and but yeah at the time there weren't a lot of of women doing it um i'm you know i didn't really think about that rich i wasn't like oh i'm a female climber or i'm a

female this i'm just you're just doing it yeah yeah well this is the year of free solo so you know climbing is on the cultural roadmap in a way that never has been before like the awareness of it is just exploded because of chai and jimmy and alex and tommy and that whole community um which is really cool to see people at the supermarket talking about El Cap and stuff like that. But I think the film that really paints the picture more adeptly in terms of the culture was, for me, was Valley Uprising, where you really got a sense of what this community is like

and how it kind of percolated up and has developed over the years. So when I you know, when I see that and you're sharing with me about, you know, living in your car and this dirtbag lifestyle, I mean, that's what I'm envisioning, kind of like this rogue pack of people that just kind of go where, you know, the season blows them and where the, you know, where the next wall is. It's a pretty special community if you think about, I mean, one, you're, you're, you're connected by people in place and you go to a place like Joshua tree or Yosemite. And even if you just

stepped out of your car and you're the average tourist, you can't help, but be moved by the nature of those places. And yeah, the dirt bike climbers are now they're cyclists doing it as well. And, yeah, the dirt bike climbers or now there's cyclists doing it as well, bikepacking. It's people who have this need to be in that place. Whether you live in a city or you get to live in, you know, Idaho or in the mountains where you live of California, there is a healing factor in nature. And people know that. It's just, you know, people living out of their car or committing to that lifestyle. They've just made a bigger commitment that they need that in their life, just like somebody needs to go to church. Yeah.

Well, there's something primal in our human makeup, in our base DNA that I think yearns for that, that we've moved too far away from. We have. I mean, it's why I think if everyone rode a bike or went running or did something outside for five minutes a day, our world would be a better place. And it's why people put plants inside their house as a grasp to have part of that nature therapy. So lucky for us, we can do it as much as we do. And I think we can all embrace more of that in our lives. I mean, I think the discussion, the conversation ends up being around like these crazy feats, whether it's, you know, some of the things that you've done

are Alex free soloing or these slackliners and, you know, wingsuit people. And it's about chasing this thrill, but that's not really what it's about. I think it's about what you just mentioned, which is just living more in alignment with nature and being connected in a very tactile way to, you know, this world that supports us, that's spinning around in space. I don't know too many extreme athletes. And I know a lot of all those people that you've

mentioned are all friends. And I'm sure, yeah, it's a small community. friends and I'm sure. Yeah. It's a small community. It's a small dedicated community, but I don't know really anyone. I mean, Alex, even he accepts the risk for what he's doing, but none of us go in with the intention of, of wanting to. Yeah. There's a sense that there, everyone's an adrenaline junkie and I don't think that's fair or accurate. No, maybe endorphin junkie might be a better word or, or, um, I mean, for me, I didn't choose to go to Alaska and try to survive subzero temperatures just because I wanted to risk frostbite and see what would happen. It was that I really wanted to experience. Iditarod Trail in Alaska and to howl at the moon with the wolves and to be so deep into the last frontier in wilderness. But your why is bigger than that overall.

Do you know your why? A little bit. Yeah. But you're the one in the hot seat right now. I know I am. I'm working on it. And it isn't really until... I mean, your TED Talk was about your why.

It was. And I was just going to say it wasn't until 46, really, when I rode the Ho Chi Minh Trail that I've been an explorer all my life. But that was the first time that I started to explore inside instead of outside. And that trail, riding that that trail really did make me instead of running and looking for a finish line and grabbing the next adventure, it, it made me slow down and, and stop and look inside for a minute. And that was really hard for more than a minute. Um, but that was a big transition for me to understand why I am doing

this. And, you know, people have asked all the time, you know, why do you torture yourself? Or, you know, it seems painful and awful and what are you doing? And yeah, Ho Chi Minh Trail and the subsequent four years that have followed in that journey have helped me understand. And that's why I went back to Alaska too is because I can finally articulate what I stand for and what I'm doing and the why. But it's still that kid in Downers Grove, Illinois, who wanted to dig around in the dirt in the backyard. The impetus is the exploration, but now it's a lot more awareness of the internal exploration instead of just the physical. more awareness of the internal exploration instead of just the physical. And I think also, and what I get out of your journey is this discovery of how you can take these adventures and these experiences that you've had and translate them,

tell stories around them in a way that can be of service to other people, whether it's opening that door for more women to get involved or, you know, really to be of service to the people of Southeast Asia, you know, which we're going to get into. I think it's an amazing transition and hopefully all humans get there. You know, it's part of the aging process perhaps. When we realize that the more you give, the more you get back and that it really just isn't about us anymore or yourself anymore. And that has been a really exciting revelation for me that, yeah, I'm still super competitive. I was afraid when I got back from the Ho Chi Minh trail that the competitive nature and spirit was gone and what am I going to do now? And what does this all mean? And that really is where I spent probably a couple of years and what you might

call depression trying to evaluate, well, who am I now and what does this all stand for? And is the athlete competitor in me gone? And if she is, what's next? Well, I think how you define competitive and athlete evolves, right? So now my sense is that what can drive you is a more sustainable fuel, which is to continue to do what you do, but do it in a way that really does provide service to other people, you know, and that's like a sustainable fuel source that you can continue to rely upon as opposed to, oh, I'm going to chase another podium. Like ultimately, it's like, who cares anymore, right? Yeah. You know, I'm 52. It's like, does anyone really, you know, do another race? Like, you've done every race.

You've dominated all the most crazy, competitive mountain bike races and adventure races out there. You don't have anything to prove to anybody. So, what will continue to propel you? And it's only by finding, like, purpose and meaning in these adventures that can, you know, be a way for other people to glean insights about their own lives. It's powerful. I mean, it's what this podcast is about, is sharing. And I think Blood Road showed me the power of sharing a story because I'm pretty introverted, you know, I go on long rides and runs by myself. And it's like a selfish thing,

kind of, right? And you're like, how long can I do this? Is this really what I should be doing? Which are, I'm sure, questions you've, you know, wrestled with. They're questions I ask all the time. I mean, I don't want people to think race is a four-letter word because I do feel like events, organized events like that really help somebody push themselves beyond what you would do alone and absolutely i you know would push myself harder in an event like i did rod and it's organized it's laid out for me even though it's super remote and so i'll probably race my whole life even though people ask when are you going to stop racing or adventure or whatever you want to call it and

you're a race director you have your your own races now. I do. We're going to try to convert you to the wonderful world of gravel. I'm nervous, but I will get there. Are your hands sweating? Yeah, they're starting to sweat. That's good. Yeah. That's the kind of- That's why you're here.

If your hands sweat, then that's your yes sign of like, I should do that. Yeah, sometimes, not always. So the next chapter is you start getting involved in these adventure races. You do like the, the, the rate Galois, right. And the echo challenge and all these crazy races that Mark Burnett kind of put on the, put on the, on the roadmap that were on television and all of that. And that's really what took you to Vietnam the first time, right? Yeah. Adventure racing was kind of my education in teamwork and doing lots of different sports. And like you said, there weren't very many women involved. And that was the time period where I was running recreation and running a climbing gym. And these people came in who were kind of these

dorky, they didn't fit in with climbing vibe. They're in like tights and, you know, tank top, you know, really tight clothing. And the climbers are all wearing baggy stuff. And these people come in and like to the rock gym and they're like, we need to learn how to repel. I'm like, like people don't repel, they climb. Like the repelling is just like the way down. It's like taking the escalator or whatever. And like, yeah, we need to learn to repel for adventure racing. And I didn't know what it was, but as a manager of the gym, I'm like, sure, I'll take your money. You know, we'll teach you how to rappel. And those were all people who were getting involved with adventure racing.

And so they had to learn the rope work. And that's how I got pulled into it. Um, because the team makeup has to be co-ed. So at the time it was traditionally three guys, one girl. And so I got roped in. They're like, oh, you look pretty strong. You're a girl. Um, you want to be on oneed. So at the time it was traditionally three guys, one girl. And so I got roped in. They're like, oh, you look pretty strong. You're a girl. You want to be on one of our teams. So my first adventure race here was in Malibu. And it was a qualifier for the Australian Eco Challenge. And it was a 24-hour race. And I was just like, I can't sit on the couch for 24 hours, let alone do an activity.

And I wasn't a cyclist. I did sort of two out of the five sports. And how old were you then? Oh, probably early thirties. And I was a rock climber and a paddler and I had run in high school and college. So that was good enough. And they threw me on a bike that was too small and into the hills in Malibu. But we ended up winning the whole race.

Uh-huh. Of course. I was like, oh, this is terrible. We've just won a trip to go do this for seven, 10 days. Now I've got to go do it again? Yeah, for longer. And I actually was like, well, that's great. We won.

There's no way I'm going and doing this for 10 days. But we went. I figured, well, it's a free trip to Australia. I'll go. So that was kind of how. Were you still living in your car? No, I was managing the rock gym and living here. And, and the adventure racing is really what moved me into my car. Cause I kept getting invited on these cool trips to go travel the world and fill up passports. And the only way I could financially make it work as if I didn't have rent. And so I quit my dream job, moved into the

Bronco that I had at the time and headed to Moab and just headed out into the desert and became a dirt bag. Right. And so you did these adventure races and like kicked ass at them for like a number of years, right? 10 years. You're essentially a professional athlete. Professional athlete that didn't make any money. Living in your car. Yeah. Yeah. No health insurance, you know, eating ramen, ramen noodles and tuna and, you know, mooching off friends and staying on couches. And, but it was, it was my travel experience. It was, you know, my PhD in travel and seeing the world and, and, and really team dynamics of what people are like when they're cold and hungry and lost. And you were in Vietnam for one of those races.

Yeah, Vietnam was pretty powerful. Yeah, I think that was 2003. And that was my first really big jungle race. And it was really the first time that I started thinking about the soldiers of Vietnam because we were getting trench foot and we would at night we'd take all of our clothes off because we had heat rash and just hike with our our clothes off because it was physically pretty miserable nothing in comparison to obviously foot soldiers and people being on the ground and and living in that atmosphere. About a taste of what the day-to-day might have been like without getting ammunition.

Right, without being shot at or anything, but a taste of the brutality of that landscape and how hard it is to travel through that landscape and also seeing the remnants of tunnels and bomb craters and seeing the history of tunnels and, you know, bomb craters and seeing the history of, of what happened. And that was the first time that I, you know, all growing up, I never asked my mom questions about my dad. There were always people who'd come up and, oh, I feel so sorry for you. You grew up without a dad, but it's hard to mourn something that you don't know. And I don't

have any memories of him. And so as a kid, I was just sort of like, I didn't know how to feel sad about it. I didn't really know what I was missing, basically. And the trip to Vietnam was the first time when my mom came with me. So after the race, we took a little tour and went around. And that's the first time I really asked her or talked to her about him in my whole life.

Wow. And I think it was therapeutic for her to finally be like, okay, we're going to her about him in my whole life. And I think it was therapeutic for her to finally be like, okay, we're going to talk about this and stand on China beach and stand in the places that he had written letters home from. And she saved all those letters. I'd never looked at them. I'd never asked about it. Um, so it, it was the beginning of an opening for us that would take still another 10, 12 years to continue to open that wound. But it was a, it, it started, it's piqued my curiosity of, of what is the Ho Chi Minh Trail and what's it like and what's Vietnam like and what did dad really go through?

Right. And there was a lot of mystery around his crash, right? Like they hadn't, you didn't know whether he survived the crash or there was no confirmation of his remains or anything like that for a number of years. Yeah. They didn't find any of his remains till 2007. And unfortunately that's pretty common that the planes go down. There are tons of, you know, people still missing who have not yet been identified. His co-pilot was never identified. Even though they found the crash site, they didn't find any remains to be confirmed. So was there a sense that he could have been a prisoner of war and you just didn't know?

Yeah, absolutely. I will say I did have nightmares as a kid. I'd dream about my dad. I'd dream about meeting him in a coffee shop, telling him about my life. And that was a reoccurring dream that I had for a long time, that I would meet him. And there were thoughts of, did he have a family? Was he living in Vietnam?

Did he leave us? Or did he abandon us and start over? I mean, we've all seen those movies, and you've seen the films, and it does happen. And so there was, as a kid of, you know, what did really happen and, you know, it comes and goes. It wasn't a daily part of my existence, but it's obviously that's infiltrating my dreams or something deep in my soul that had questions to be answered. You know, in 2007, they finally found two teeth at the crash site. It was the second or third excavation of that site. And ironically, my sister is a dentist in the Air Force, and she was able, through her clearance,

to actually go and look and identify the teeth and bring them back. Confirm. Yeah, and confirm. So it was a really interesting tie to her chosen profession and career. Has there ever been a general who's also a dentist? Well, she entered through the dentist. There hasn't been. There aren't many generals who come into the Air Force through the medical wing. And so, yeah, her path has been a little different. But, yeah, she came in through the medical side.

But she doesn't practice. Unfortunately, the higher you get in the ranks, the less you actually do your practice. Right. If you're a general, you're not like filling cavities. She's not doing that anymore. No, she's making decisions for, yeah, the whole military medical system now at this point.

So the adventure racing thing kind of runs its course and the rug gets pulled out from underneath you because those TV shows all kind of go away, right? They did go away. Although he's bringing them back. Have you heard of that? Oh, is he? No, I didn't know that. Yeah. Mark Burnett apparently is bringing back Eco Challenge. That'll be interesting. Yeah. You want to race on a team? I don't know. Oh, man, you're grinding me today. Maybe. We'll see. Let's start with a gentle mountain bike ride. We all heard it. Yeah. But that kind of created a little bit of a void for you, right? Like, oh man,

what am I going to do now? Like a little bit of a dismantling. Like I had this good thing going. What's the next chapter going to look like for me now that I can't continue to make my way? Yeah, I was playing. I was playing along, doing adventure racing, traveling the world and came to a screeching halt with the death of a friend and with adventure racing, you know, losing sponsorship and that just kind of dying out. And yeah, there was a period of, again, a dark sort of time of what am I doing with my life? You know, what is this college degree or what am I really going to do? And, uh, and it's really interesting, but that's where I found mountain biking. And that has been, um, and really I just went, the reason I went on this,

I went to a 24 hour race with a bunch of girlfriends as a therapy. And it kind of goes back to the cross country running days. You know, when, when I'm in my deepest, darkest holes, it's, it's usually physical activity and a few, a very small group of friends that people that pull me out of it. If I'm left to my own devices, I don't do well, but it takes me a while to reach out. So I reached out to some girlfriends and let's go do this mountain bike thing in Moab. I just heard of it 24 hours in Moab and, you know, it's October. So it's not a great time to be in the mountains because it's just muddy and not ski season yet. And so we went to Moab and slept out in the desert and rode around in circles for 24 hours.

And to me, it had all the ingredients that I'd been missing, which was community and working hard and challenging myself. And, um, we did really well. And I ended up, I was running most of the technical sections because it was a lousy mountain biker. So I just get off and run and then ride super fast on the flat sections. Just try to make up for lost time. And all these people saw me just jumping off my bike, shouldering it, running down the technical stuff, jumping back on. But it was therapeutic. And I ended up having the fastest laps of all the women in the race.

And, you know, we won the sort of intermediate or whatever division. Mountain biking being your weakest discipline. Yeah. Terrible. Terrible. Then this becomes your greatest strength. It's kind of weird. Yeah.

No, it has been. And, you know, at 38, basically decided, okay, well, I'll lose this mountain bike thing for a little while. And it was really the endurance that I was good at. The 24 hours was kind of like, that's no big deal. You know, eco challenges were seven days. So 24 hours was one night, you'd be in your bed the next night. You know, you don't really get into sleep deprivation in 24 hours. So it was fine.

So it was good at that part of it. And that was, but I just wasn't any good at riding a bike. Yeah. Well, I mean, you're very modest because you essentially win every mountain bike race that you enter after this, you end up dominating Leadville, winning it many times in a row. The long ones, not the short ones, you know, not the, you know, super technical. Don't undersell yourself. I'm here to prop you up. Thank you. But I will say, I mean, I found that the longer it is, and this is, you know,

it's kind of a mountaineering mindset, you know, or I feel like mountaineers and ultra endurance athletes are very similar in that it's not necessarily how really technically skilled you are. I mean, of course you have to be at a certain level, but it's more, can you keep going this sort of slow burn, consistent mindset to do really long things like that. Yeah. It's not about how fast you're going. It's just your persistent forward motion and not slowing down. Right. And taking care of yourself and having the mental sort of agility or whether it's this sort of detached focus. It's hard for me to explain of what I think about when I'm in really long events. And I heard you talking about how you listen to podcasts and music sometimes,

and I'll go back and forth between that stuff, but there is a, you have to take yourself out of the moment of the pain of the moment, but also be focused and in the moment. And I'm not, I need a term for that, but it's a very interesting, it's a form of meditation. Yeah. I mean, you know. Focused, but it's a very interesting, it's a form of meditation. Yeah. I mean, focused, but losing track of time. Yeah. Your relationship with time becomes very malleable. Like it's not linear. And when you can get in that state where you're in that aerobic zone where your heart's beating and your lungs are heaving, but not too hard. There's this weird thing that happens where it's not that time speeds up.

It just become your perception of time is altered. And so hours can go by, but it doesn't feel like that. It's like if you're driving your car cross country by yourself, like the first day is the hardest day because you've ants in your pants and you're like not used to sitting down, but then like day two and a half, like you'll be driving for hours and hours

and it's like a blink of an eye and you don't even realize what you've just driven through. It's like this weird flow state that you get into. I had a kind of a revelation after I came back from Ho Chi Minh Trail and I think I mentioned I was in kind of a dark place and that was the first time I started dabbling with still meditation, sitting still and trying to meditate. And,

you know, it was really great for me to experience that and to have the revelation that I've been meditating all along, but in movement and not sitting still. And it was the same exact feeling, like you said, of time takes on a different meaning. And for me to be able to find that while I'm not moving was pretty eye-opening for me during my activities to go, well, yeah, I've been doing this all along. I had no idea why I've been doing that. And that was a big, like I said at the beginning, sitting down and looking inside instead of being in constant

motion. But it was reassuring to know that the ultra endurance stuff has been fueling me in that way as a soul searching and as a therapy of sorts. Yeah. I think it works that way for a lot of people, but I think it is, you know, if you, it's important to point out that there are like, I know people that are part of the community that I think are deal with their pain or their trauma by training and racing a little bit too much. And they're, they're kind of running away from what they really need to look at.

And as long as they keep moving, they never have to look at that thing and work through it because stopping will force them to do that. That's too painful. So it's easier to just keep moving forward. And then there's the healthier relationship with it, which is to leverage it and use it as a means of therapy to work through those things, those things that we all have. You're exactly right. And that

revelation didn't come to me until after the Ho Chi Minh trail of stopping for a minute and stopping the racing and sitting still and then realizing I could take my sport, you know, the next evolution of my sport might still involve racing, but it was going to be with a very different mindset of, of not necessarily chasing a podium. And if a podium comes along the way, great, but that wasn't the initial goal anymore. It's, it's deeper and bigger than that and it it has taken me until now to figure that out and and i did rod trail is one of the first big expeditions i've done since the ho chi minh trail where it was a personal really big personal challenge um it's the first one since since then

so it's taken four years since i went and did the ho chi Minh Trail to, I think, come around to how can I feed my competitive spirit, but also feed my soul. And I did rod is the first one of those where I am taking what I knew before the athlete I was before to the human that I am now. Well, that's a mature evolution. It's not easy. Evolution is not easy. No, it's not. And it's a rollercoaster ride. Absolutely. So let's get into it.

So in 2007, your father's remains are discovered. And I gather from your story that this was kind of like, okay, now I need to go and like really explore this relationship with my father. I've been to Vietnam before. I have a sense of it, but now knowing where he crashed, like I want to go connect with that. It was not as articulated that clearly. There was a curiosity about him. My sister, obviously, you know, when the remains were found, there was the whole military, you know, Arlington ceremony. And frankly, I didn't want to go.

I didn't want to celebrate the war. And this is where it's been hard on my family. You know, I didn't, you know, they do a 21 gun salute. And to me. Did you not go then? You know, I didn't, you know, they do a 21 gun salute. And to me, I went for my family and for my sister and mom. And I felt, it felt so ironic to me that we're shooting guns to celebrate the very tool that killed him. I really struggled with that. And if you've been to Arlington looking across all those white headstones and it's not a peaceful place for me to hang out.

It's eerie. I grew up there. Yeah. And that the most impactful part of that day was not the ceremony itself. And I mean, I'm glad the government and we celebrate when people come home and the remains are found. We have to, and we have to keep looking. But for me, the most impactful part of the day was behind the scenes, off on the side, away from the ceremony were all these Vietnam vets with Harleys and their jackets on and patches from the war. And I was sort of drawn to that group of people more than the people in uniform. The outlaws. Kind of, yeah.

The outliers and the people who kind of didn't quite fit in. And that's a little bit how I felt that day. Did some of his friends from that time show up? Yeah. And yeah, Joe Leon and some other people came up and said, I knew your dad and we're glad he's home and showed us pictures and you look just like him. And that was, I think I was in shock, but that really was the beginning of, I can look back now, hindsight is 20-20 and go, yeah, I have been on this path to go to those map coordinates for a long time. And meeting those people, that was impactful for me. I felt like that was more of a connection to him than I'd ever felt because they knew him and they were there and they experienced the same

thing. And my adventure racing career and, you know, sponsorship and all that has been this really interesting circuitous journey that i i do believe was leading there all the time and you know i needed the skills and map and compass and all this expedition you had to have done all the things that you had done in order to be prepared to handle that it's true i couldn't have gone in my 30s or 20s it's crazy looking back how like every domino lined up perfectly to put you in a position to be able to embark upon that adventure. I'm glad you noticed that. Cause I noticed it and it seems clear as day, like, of course, you know, but while I'm in it,

leaving out of my car and doing all these things and then changing to mountain biking and none of that would have seemed like it was lining up. If you had just been a mountain bike racer, you wouldn't have had the skill set to be able to do it. No, not at all. It was the adventure racing and the rock climbing, like all of that. Yeah, paddling, everything. White water, you know, all of it. So when does it crystallize as, okay, chi minh trail that's what i'm gonna do

it crystallized and i i mean i have to thank red bull for this they've been a partner for almost 20 years with me and every year instead of you know telling me what i have to do they ask me well what do you want to do and they've pushed me to think of new and creative ideas. So I just started thinking about what are the cool, what cool places could I go ride my bike that I could ride a long way. And, you know, a light bulb finally went off. That was like the Ho Chi Minh trail, this iconic trail. I don't think anyone's done it. And Oh, by the way, that's where my dad is. And, you know, I could sort of two parts of my world could come together for the first time in my life of my personal life and, and my career, but really

it started as a bike adventure and maybe I could go do that. And I pitched the idea for two or three years. It didn't, didn't stick, um, to Red Bull and got denied. And I'm, I'm kind of glad that it did because i wasn't ready yet i was still racing ladville and still in you know chasing podiums and doing all that um and they weren't ready as a company to tell this kind of a story it's not your typical red bull film um and basically i went to them because i knew I needed help. The maps alone, the logistics just seemed daunting. Yeah, the magnitude of trying to pull this thing off is massive. So I didn't go to say, let's make a movie.

I went and said, will you help me with the logistics of this? Will you help me try to do this expedition? Fully thinking I was just going to do it by myself, maybe with my husband or a friend who's a cyclist, and just go do it and have a personal journey. But, um, it grew into a big story and a documentary film and I'm really grateful that it did because it's, you know, I'm not one to tell my own story really, even though we're here talking about it. Well, it seems like it happened very organically. It wasn't like we're going to make a movie like, oh, maybe we'll shoot some. And just the story kind of got bigger and bigger and bigger.

And, you know, you had Red Bull there to document everything. And then the realization that like, hey, this is this is there's a bigger story to be told here than just some adventure clips and a short little mini thing. Yeah, the cycling almost became it was the vehicle and it was my tool to explore. But, you know, the bike really wasn't the main part of it. It was the way I got there. It was my process to ride 1200 miles. Like people ask, why didn't you just go to that map court? You had the map quarters. Why didn't you just go there? Which I could have, but for me, I needed to do it in my way, which was physically stripping away, getting tired, traveling a long way, immersing in the culture, you know, riding with a Vietnamese partner and the sort of force field that we put up around ourselves. I needed to do that to be ready to, you know, I'm not a really open person. The vulnerability

was totally new for me, especially being documented. And the bike was like, okay, at least I know I can put my head down and ride for 10 hours a day. And knowing now that I needed that as a therapy and a processing and to take my time getting to the map coordinates to take a month. I didn't know that much about the Ho Chi Minh Trail. I mean, I just thought it's a road. I mean, you're going, it's 1200 miles, goes through, beginning in North Vietnam, goes through Laos, Cambodia, and was there traditionally to shepherd weapons, artillery, and supplies from the north down to the south to the Viet Cong, right? But I had no sense of just how difficult and technical and,

I mean, it's really barely a trail at all. It's, yeah, in some places it's not a trail. There's not a sign that's like, this way, the Ho Chi Minh Trail. You know, it's not. So we put together a historically accurate route, and it's really, there's a spider web of trails. And when, you know, the U.S. would bomb the trail, they'd rebuild it again.

So there are places that are paved over. There's places that are under reservoirs. There are places that are, you know, in the jungle where we're using machetes. There's places with original cobblestones still hand-laid that are still there and footpaths that the villagers still use. I mean, Laos is very undeveloped and a lot of those paths and trails are still just used for daily life, moving around. I mean, given the difficulty of you traversing it by mountain bike, imagine, you know, all these people like carrying, you know, giant loads for that entire

distance. Life on the trail was, I mean, people died all the time along the trail. You know, you leave on that journey to move rice and ammunition down the trail and not come back. move rice and ammunition down the trail and not come back. Yeah. The striking thing in the film is just how obliterated, you know, like there's just, the landscape is just lined with exploded artillery craters the entire way. Yeah, it is. Right? I didn't know that either. That was probably my biggest surprise along the trail was, one, how kind the people are and how they could welcome the daughter of someone who was bombing their families, how they could welcome me in and help me. big surprise was the amount of devastation that is still there every day and the unexploded ordinance every day that people are still living with people who were never weren't even born

during the war. There's kids that have known nothing else than having unexploded ordinance in their village. Um, that's a huge part of the movie that it's what it's called UXO unexploded ordinance. Yeah. I didn't know that term either. Yeah, it's just everywhere. And that's become a big part, like that's kind of a tangential outgrowth that goes back to the service thing, a way for you to be able to be involved and support these people that are basically

combing the entire terrain to try to unearth these things and explode them. Yeah. Mines Advisory Group is the organization I work with, but that is, I mean, not just clearing in Laos, they're clearing in all the war-torn countries and sort of everywhere we go, we leave awake of explosives long after the war is gone and done. we leave that you know as our parting gift to the the locals that live there and thankfully there's organizations that that work and go clean up that mess and and i couldn't they literally have to do go over it with a fine-tooth comb and then they go over it again right just to make sure, the process is very labor intensive, extremely labor intensive.

That is metal detectors and then fine tuning the metal detector and then hand digging out the unexploded ordnance. And in a jungle place like Laos, you know, it's harder to clear. In a desert environment, they can send, instead of it having to be human clearance, you can send machinery and other ways, but not in the jungle terrain. You can't do that in Laos. And so it is by hand. And the Lao people, it's actually a really good job in Laos to work for mine's advisory group and to have a steady paycheck to help clean up your country. Yeah. There are those scenes of you with that organization and that

group and you explode an ordinance. It's crazy. The sound of that, I mean, it makes me cry every time because you feel it reverberate in your chest and your body. And you imagine, we don't hear that as Americans. We don't hear or feel that noise. And when you hear it and it shakes the trees and it shakes your chest, it's hard for me not to feel guilty. And imagine living there and hearing that every day, raining 24 hours a day, hearing that noise and the fear. And I mean, you've talked to people who come back, you know,

from war with PTSD and the sound of the bombs is something I don't think anyone will ever forget. And I had never heard it before I went to help, you know, with the clearance. And I, I feel like that's part of, if, if we go to a place, we hear a sound, we smell a smell. There's, you know, you see all our senses are involved when you actually immerse yourself in an experience like that. And it goes a lot deeper when you smell and hear and see and taste something versus seeing it in a movie. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I've never experienced that.

My whole relationship with that is on a movie screen or on a television. It's powerful. And it is why after leaving there, it was so clear to me that this ride was no longer about me and my journey. And it was so clear that my dad brought me there to father me and about me and my journey. And it was so clear that, you know, my dad brought me there to father me and teach me and say, Hey, will you, will you take what you have with your

cycling and your career and, uh, and help clean up this mess? Yeah. I mean, I feel to the core of my soul that I was meant to be there and he brought me there to, to father me and teach me and, and, you know, tell me what the next steps were with my bike, you know, still with my bike, still adventuring, but to, to have a different, a different purpose on it. That's a lot bigger than me. That's, that's, it's such a beautiful sentiment and, and truth. I feel like it's true. It can't not be true. There are too many things that you can't chalk up to coincidence and meeting people that have served with my dad and learning map and compass and just all of it that's lined up. It can't be coincidence. I really do believe I was brought there. Yeah. So how does that kind of inform your, you're on this interior journey now, right?

Like, you know, how do you think of yourself as a spiritual being? Like, what is your spiritual perspective on this? I mean, it just seems like it couldn't be any other way. What's been really apparent to me is the connectivity of humans and how these threads of people you've never met in your whole life that, but you still are, are connected. And I don't know the terms to explain it, you know, but that the village man that I met, who is the son of the father who buried my father and, you know, meeting him face to face. And we'd met a lot of Lao villagers along the way. And I didn't know that we were pulling up to his house. I knew we were near the place and this village chief was going to take me there. And I locked eyes with this guy,

the million, not million, 100th Lao villager we'd met along the way. I locked eyes with this person and there was something about him. I couldn't stop staring at him. And he smiled at me and I smiled at him and then found out later that his dad buried my dad and he was going to take me there. And he even, his mother was pregnant at the time of the crash. And so his dad had told him this whole story growing up and the village shaman had said to the mom, you know, when one soul dies, another is born. And, you know, this soldier is basically in your belly, in you. This is part of you. And so Mr. Eyre, when he's telling me this through a translator, he reaches down and shows me and he has, it's kind of a funny story. He has six toes. And he pointed to his sixth toe and said, see, this is proof that we're brother and sister.

You know, we're a part of each other. And I've never met this man. He lives in a hut in the middle of the jungle. And yet we're connected. And when I went back the time again, a year later, you know, I've taken trips back there now three times. And I asked him, you know, were you surprised to see me? And he's like, no. And then the last time I went, I, you know, I kind of asked again, I said, did you know we were coming back? And he said, yeah, I had a dream. I saw you in a dream a month ago. I knew you were coming. Wow. And I believe

him. These things, like the connectivity of humans is just fascinating to me. And people that have served with my dad, we've become good friends. My sister and I have become closer because of it all. And there is a reason behind it all. And so, yeah, whether you call it spirituality or connectivity, but it's, to me, reinforces how important it is that we find community in our lives, whether it's through your running club or your family or through a charity or whatever it is that humans have to make connections. That's really amazing. It is. It's like, it doesn't need a label, you know, just the telling of the story is enough.

It doesn't need a label. Just the telling of the story is enough. There's so much awe and wonder and beauty in that story. And I think if you really take it to heart and listen, there's so much that we can learn about purpose and finding meaning in our lives. Like a big thing with you is learning to trust your instincts and follow your guts and chase that curiosity. And it's found its way

in all of these athletic pursuits that you've done. But honing that brought you to that place and to those people that came from within you. You didn't need to go back and retrace these steps and try to find your father. You didn't even remember him, but there was a calling, you know, deep within you to do that. And, you know, what blossomed from that are these amazing relationships. And that serendipity is just unbelievable. It is unbelievable. You made a really good point of listening. And I don't

think I was listening for a long time. And what I've learned, yeah, is to listen to my gut. I mean, I've listened to my gut. Living out of my car, I want to go rock climbing. And I have listened. But I feel like I'm truly listening more now. And what's the difference between then and now? listening more now. And what's the difference between then and now? The biggest difference is that I'm not just listening to me. I want to go rock climbing. I want to do this. I want to do that. Um, I'm, it's like a horse with blinders on the blinders are spread out a little bit past my eyes then, than just straightforward. And a big part of the Ho Chi Minh trail riding with my Vietnamese teammate who was slower than I was doing a film, which is slower. You know, I could have done the whole thing a lot faster, Rebecca style by myself.

And there was a part of me that was really frustrated along this journey by having to slow down. And, but that is truly what was the, one of the biggest frustrations for me truly became the biggest gift because slowing down made me sit by the side of the trail and look at the butterflies or journal or voice record along the trail. I was waiting for the film crew or Huen. And it was the slowing down that allowed me to take the blinders off and listen not just to my heartbeat and this and what's going on with me, but to listen to what's going on and see what's going on around me. So that's the biggest difference, you know, me versus looking outside and what's bigger, a bigger sphere. QN has her own amazing story. and what's bigger, a bigger sphere.

QN has her own amazing story. She's awesome. And she's also grown from this trip and now has a cafe in Hanoi and has rediscovered cycling and has cycling groups now. And I think it was a really healing process for her as well. What is the, I'd like you to kind of describe the experience, the life experience of some of these villagers that you connected with along the way. There was a woman who like lived in, she was a girl and was in like basically lived in a

cave for six years to come out and find her village gone. And, you know, what is it that you kind of gleaned or learned from spending time with these people along the way? It's really the fact that they live in the moment. And I touched on this a little bit. There was no animosity towards us. I fully expected to go in there as an American looking for a US soldier to, you know, imagine if someone came to your house, knocked on your door and said, can I dig around in your backyard? My dad was bombing here, you know, and I want to go look for him. Would you, would you say, come on in, you know, and, and, oh, by the way, you know, I killed, you know,

your family and I was part of that. Would you open your door and welcome them in? Or would there be this part of you that's like, wait, you're coming from the Vietnam war. And there was never a moment of blame or looking back. And he even says it, said it to me. She said, the past is past and we can only control now in the future. And I really felt like the villagers there, they have a different life perspective. They're just trying to survive. So what tomorrow is or what yesterday was

is not what they're thinking about. They're thinking about right now and spending time with their family and having enough food and farming their land. And that living in the moment and not holding on to blame or grudge or what happened is pretty powerful. I don't, I'm not particularly good at that. I don't think Americans are particularly good at letting go of that. And yeah, the woman that I met, I visit her every time

I go back and she speaks no English. I speak no Lao. Yeah. She lived in, that was her life. She lived in a cave. All of her children were born in the cave and they were there and they have grandchildren now. And she's sitting happily in a hut surrounded by bomb craters, but she's, she's home and that is her home. And it's sort of a, it may seem simplistic. I took one of my mountain bike friends that I took on the first MTB Lowe trip. She met the woman with me, and this is a friend who lives in Idaho with me and has two kids and is a PT. And I said, the woman, I see her every year and she's wearing the same clothes

and she's sitting in the same place in her hut making rice. And Caroline said to me, God, she must be so bored. Well, it's easy for us to have a lot of judgment about that. Well, and that's what I said. I said, she might be happier than we are. She might be, she seems perfectly content. And it's that perspective. It's why I keep going back to refresh myself of the simplicity of the perspective, but also what I'm working for to help them live a peaceful, safe life. There's no reason that they should have to worry about unexploded ordinance. Yeah. Well, Americans are weird because we live these fast-paced, hairy, complicated, modern lives. And we all know or we've had direct experience with other cultures that have slowed things down and are more integrated with their community and live, quote-unquote, what we would call simplistic lives.

But they're undeniably happier and they seem to be, you know, have joy and love in their lives and the important, you know, boxes seem to be checked, but their lifestyle is so foreign to us that we have trouble relating. And as much as we kind of intellectually understand, like, wow, they're happier. Like I could use more of that in my life. We kind of return home and then just go about doing whatever it is we were doing. And I question whether we really learn anything from this. Well, how do you bring that back home and add that into your life or layers of that into your life? I've not been totally successful yet.

It's why I need to keep going back and learning the lesson. And it's why I keep riding. Why I'll never stop going on adventures because apparently I need to keep learning the lessons over and over again. I'm a slow learner. Yeah. Well, one of the things that you're involved in that I think is really cool is this organization or what is it? Article 22 that makes beautiful jewelry out of the scrap metal from the ordinance. Yeah. You actually brought like some of these.

I brought you some bracelets, yeah. I'm going to take this out. They're really cool. So tell me about this. Yeah, when I came back feeling this strong sense of purpose that I need to do something about the unexploded ordinance and the bombs, and I'm looking around online, and I came across Article 22 out of New York,

and this woman, Elizabeth, who she had a similar experience to Ida, not similar, but she had traveled in Laos, and she was looking for textiles. That doesn't fit me. She came across, we've got some different titles. Yeah, I recall. This is for my wife. She came across this little village, Nafia Village in northern Laos in the Plinidjars area where the secret war went on and where the US CIA base was, where we weren't supposed to be. And this small village, one village in all of Laos, they were making spoons out of the bombs, the aluminum from the bomb casings and airplane parts.

And they had homemade kilns melting down, making spoons. And she went to this village and was just like, if they can make spoons out of them, you know, they'd taken, they'd made something useful. And she's like, well, what else could they make? And so she started this company, Article 22, that makes bracelets, earrings, jewelry from the bombs, from the unexploded ordnance, and they employ the Lao villagers. She runs the business basically through Facebook Messenger with this one village. And they're all sold here in the U.S. and across the United States.

And so I partnered with her. I asked her, the words on there, be good. My dad, he signed all his letters home from the Vietnam War with the words be good every single one said be good Steve and um so I asked her you know and really that's the purpose I took from my trip from the Ho Chi Minh Trail is be good and interpret that however you want for me. Made from a bomb that was dropped from the sky. Yeah.

And hopefully, eventually, this company will close and they won't have any more material to work with eventually because it'll be gone and it'll all be used. But yeah, it's taking something devastating and horrible and making it into a beautiful reminder. And the bracelets really remind me of the MIA bracelets. Do you know what those were? No. So missing in action is what MIA is. And I think it was the U.S. Postal Service. They did a big campaign during the Vietnam War with bracelets

that you could wear, aluminum bracelet with engraved with, um, someone's name who was missing and their, their rank and their, and their, the date they went missing. And people would, you know, wear these bracelets for strangers. I've had people reach out and be like, I wore your dad's bracelet until the day he was found. And it was a really amazing program. and these new sort of happier aluminum bracelets, they kind of remind me of that is, is it's kind of taking that a memento,

a legacy of that. Yeah. And to look down and, and look at something and have a remembrance, it's kind of like we talked about, how do you bring back those memories and what you learned somewhere and, and have it in your daily life as a reminder. And to me,

the bracelets are, you look down at jingles, you, are, you look down, it jingles. Yeah, you think about what is this made of and who made it? And can we clean up all of it so that it's gone? And a portion of the proceeds goes to that organization that's clearing the unexploded ordinance. Every bracelet clears 12.5 square meters of land in Laos in my dad's name through my foundation. I now have a Be Good Foundation, just became official, 501c3. So it's been a process, but I'm taking my bike and this film and these bracelets as a way to use my bike to make a difference.

And that can involve adventures or bracelets or movie tours, but it's, it's actually super exciting that my business, you know, I sort of give air quotes when I say it, but my business has, um, evolved into still feeding my soul with adventuring and cycling. But now this, this whole bigger part of it, which is to help people heal by riding a bicycle. It's crazy. Like what your life has become from like living in the Bronco too, because you do so many things. Like you're not just an athlete, you're a race director and you've got this nonprofit and you're doing all these things

to empower women. And you've got, you know, the brace. It's like, it's, it's like, I'm like, how do you even have the time to train? I don't. Well, you just touched on a really big- Life gets complicated. It does get complicated, but I mean, I have to do these things. When I came back from Blood Road, I had a down period, and I really wrote down, what do I stand for? Like, how am I going to make choices? I don't know where I'm going but how do I do what are my core

values and I wrote them down I went through that exercise and and I have a bit of a roadmap thanks to dad I don't know so what are those core values what does that look like it's a set of equations um and I can look back to the bronco days and all that and they all kind of fall in line but the the later ones have evolved a little bit and touch on not having enough time for training, but it all starts to me with risk equals reward. That's the first one. Passion equals payoff. Give equals get, which is part of all this foundation sharing. And then the final one that you just touched on that less equals more and that, you know, if I fill my life up too much you know kind of back to that simplicity is it better to do more and that's i think probably where you live and i live now in

spaces in our life of what do we say no to right i would imagine you're inundated with requests or invitations to do lots of cool stuff i am and. And again, going back to Iditarod, that's why I need to just go ride alone for long distances, because that is the core of who I am. That's that kid in Downers Grove, Illinois, who wanted to go camp in the backyard, is I can't lose sight of that through everything else. And now this movie, this beautiful movie that you won,

that you made, won an Emmy. It did win an Emmy. It's crazy. That movie tour and I, you know, Jimmy and Chai and all those guys are going through that right now. It's a hard road to, it's harder to share your story than not share your story. But the gift of that film and Blood Road and the hard work and no training of sharing the film, it touched so many veterans and families and kids. And people write me still every week of like, thank you. I saw this. My dad was in the Korean War or my family did this. And it's been a really, it just shows me again how important it is that it's not just about me. It's not my film anymore. So it's actually a way to help people and to touch people

and to heal from the atrocities of war. Are you still touring with it? I'm using it now as a fundraising tool. It's not an official tool anymore, but I'm using it as a tool, um, for my foundation. So people can request to host a screening. They can, you know, request to have me. And so it's a great tool to go and give a speech to a film. And, and it's a, it's an evergreen story. Unfortunately, the bombs aren't cleared up yet. No, I know.

They have a long way to go. They do. And so, yeah, it's a tool that I have to do my job, which is amazing. Right. So let's talk about you're 50 now. I am. Right? Yeah, I can say it now.

I know, you're smiling. That's good. Well, at 49, I was all like, what am I going to do when I turned 50? What am I going to say when I turned 50? And you know, it's like, I'm 50. I'm proud of it. But you're killing it. You're crushing it. So I guess my question is like, how do you, how do you think about aging and how has your training and your racing evolved with time and age? like in a very like physical way, like, like, do you have to do things differently? Are you still feeling the way that you did at 40?

Like, how is it different? How do you adapt and evolve? The biggest thing I notice is I do all the things that we all should do anyway. I have to stretch more. I have to sleep more. I have to drink more water. I can't be lazy about the whole picture anymore. All those things, as we know, when we're 20, 30, 40, you know you're supposed to do that stuff. But you don't. You get away with it. You don't have to.

You totally get away with it. Now you just cannot get away with it. Right. There's no, there's less, you have to be sort of more complete in the preparation, which is fine. It just requires more commitment, more time. You know, you've got to allow more time to go stretch.

I take longer to warm up. So stretching, like do you do like foam rolling and what other kinds of like practices? Foam roller is a big part of it. Lots of little balls and toys and rubber bands and things. I have some great body workers at home that I see a little more regularly than I would have when I was living out of my Bronco. I didn't really see a body worker. Foam rollers weren't around at that time. Yeah, and I mix it up a little bit more too.

I do a lot of trail running with my dogs. I swim a little bit because I feel like it's really good for you. I do yoga. It's just becoming a little bit more well-rounded. The biggest challenge I'm finding, and you already talked about it, is as I get older and I get busier and there's more demands on my time, it's harder to carve out and really be diligent about protecting my training time. And probably that is my biggest challenge right now is not that I need to stretch more, drink more water. It's I need to actually really dedicate time to myself and that's part of my job and nobody can touch that. So I could learn maybe from you on being diligent about that.

I don't know. My boundary is a little too permeable at this point. I think I could learn maybe from you on being diligent about that. I don't know. My boundary is a little too permeable at this point. I think I could learn from you about being more protective of that time. Well, and honestly, it's hard in a daily routine, but this is why I will continue to sign up for events because when I'm in Alaska, nobody can touch me. When I'm out on the trail and I really am in an event and I say I'm going to be off the grid for two weeks, then truly nobody can get to me.

And that really is precious time for me. So now I'm in sort of the mode of planning really big adventures so that at least a few times a year or once a month I'm going and doing a big ride. Scary enough to keep you honest. Scary enough to keep me honest and then also really be off the grid. And where I live, there isn't cell phone coverage when I'm mountain bike riding. And I think those are my ways of protecting the boundaries. Yeah. What does the training look like? How structured are you with it?

Do you work with a coach? And how does that evolve? Coach Dean, are you listening? I guess you do work with a coach. I do work with a coach and how is that Dean are you listening I guess you do work with a coach I do work with a coach Dean Gollart he's he's awesome he's he's uh I've worked with him for years um and I was really about to you know I need to call him today and be like hey I need more structure I need you to kick my butt a little bit um because he was patient with me as I it's's really after, you know, my training has been a lot less structured since I came back from blood road and I've done a bunch of stuff and I've dabbled, but it's time now I've had the evolution and the processing that

now I do want to get back to some more serious training. So typically when I'm on track, it will, you know, the, the basic core of it is, is a couple of really long things a week. And then a few days of intervals a week. I mean, it's, it's really that basic, you know, short or long, short and hard or long and, and, and slow, um, and everything else. And so Dean helps you kind of conceptualize that and then says, okay, here's, is it like a here today you do this tomorrow, or is it just like, here's the kind of core work workouts that you got to get in and you figure out how it works with your schedule. I he'll put it like a here today you do this tomorrow or is it just like here's the kind of core workouts that you got to get in and you figure out how it works with your schedule? He'll put it on a calendar and ideally that accountability is really important for me.

It's just like somebody saying you need to show up and do this interview with Rich Roll at this time. And it's like, okay, I'll be there. Right. And so in a best case scenario, he'll put it all in a calendar and I see it and I look and I plan my day and go, okay, tomorrow's a big day. I need to schedule around that. I haven't been that great at it, you know, admittedly in the last couple years.

So that's where I'm asking him to get back and crack the whip a little bit. Because I think we all need someone to keep us accountable, whether it's family or coach or boss or whatever. And he let me take a break for a while. He's very understanding of that. But yes, time to get back to work. I like how you phrase that. Like he let you, like he's the boss. And what's your relationship with training devices like the heart rate monitors and power meters and the human optimization, you know, whereby we're all using technology to learn more about how our bodies function. Like, are you more of a naturalist or do you rely on those things? How, you know, how does that work

for you? Yeah, I'm middle of the road. I think a power meter is the best tool ever designed on the face of the earth because it is very direct, immediate feedback that you are either progressing or you're strong today or you're not. And it doesn't lie. Whereas the heart rate monitor can lie if you're sick or you're tired or whatever. Yeah, it's less accurate. For those that are listening that aren't super gear heads, a power meter measures the amount of force that you're exerting on the pedals, basically. Yeah. And if you're pushing down, you're exerting on the pedals basically yeah and if you're pushing down you're pushing down and if you're not you're not and to me i use that in training a lot as a measure and and for me it's a reinforcement of you know we all have days where you think oh i'm kind of sucking today and then you'll look at the numbers and say oh no it really it wasn't that bad or, oh, it's time to take a rest. And for me, I like that direct feedback.

However, I will, I will say I never use it racing. It's on, it's recording so that Dean can look at it and we can look at the metrics. Um, but I always race by feel and perception. Because if you're looking at those numbers, it will unduly influence. Like if you think, oh, wow, I'm above my threshold, I better dial it back, even if you're feeling good. I think it holds people back. And I also think it keeps them from being really in tune with how they're actually feeling in the moment and reading your body instead of reading a number on a screen. And it also, if your eyes are down, glued to the Garmin, you're not looking around. I think that it's important. The tools are great,

but they work best when you're using them to develop that intuition. Like you're so experienced, I'm sure, even though you're not looking at the data or the numbers, you could probably say with extreme precision, oh yeah, these were the watts that I was at today. And it would match up because you're so connected in that way. Well, that's what's cool is I was an athlete long before those gadgets were available. And so I developed a sense of how I'm feeling and intuitively how I'm feeling.

And then when the gadgets came along, it was like, oh, yeah, reinforcement. Like, oh, okay. So, yeah, I do know what 200 Watts feels like. I do know what this feels like, but they're also, they're a great measure that because we are all busier, they're a great measure that, you know, you want quality time versus quantity. And it's a measure of like, I'm getting the most out of this workout. I have an hour, I'm going to get it done and I'm going to do the work. And then it's like, cool. So as a training tool, I think they're amazing as a tool to know your body or to make decisions in racing. I don't, you know, I'd rather use my brain. Yeah. I'm with you. And now at 50, is there a shift in like the, the balance of how your training goes?

Like, do you feel like you need to do more strength and interval stuff? Like that that is more important or less important? Like how has it altered to kind of, you know, correspond with the aging process? Or do you not think about that? Or is that irrelevant? I think about it. I feel like I have such a library of years of doing endurance and long stuff that for me, I get the most benefit and pop from doing intervals, doing strength, doing short, hard things, because that's not my natural state. It's less fun, but it's over faster. But yes, if I do the hard work in that way,

um, it pays off and it, you know, so I try to do those during the week. So huge. And for years and years and years of having done that, you can tap into it. I do. I feel like I can tap into that pretty easily. I can't tap into speed unless I'm, unless I'm really working on it, but, but one feeds the other. And part of the reason I, unless I'm really working on it. But one feeds the other. And part of the reason I suffered so badly in Alaska is I went into that race kind of unfit. And I know it sounds sort of weird,

but I knew I could finish the distance. The distance wasn't intimidating to me, but I would have felt a lot better if I'd gone in with more intervals under my belt. And the bike was 65 pounds. So just heaving it up and over some of these hills and stuff was, was pretty intense. So I could use a training camp. I know. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. And what is your relationship with suffering? You know,

when people say like, Oh, you know, why are you, you know, keep, why do you keep going back to the pain cave? Like, what is it, what is it that you're getting out of it? What are you learning about yourself? What is your relationship with suffering? I feel like the pain cave or suffering or I feel like there is an ancient, I mean,

this is nothing new. We're physical deprivation or whether it's fasting or whether it's going into a sweat lodge, affecting your physical body for me is a way to to kind of reach inside my soul and access the inner body by sort of, some may call it torture or suffering or going into the pain cave physically, that actually allows me to access who I am emotionally. And it sounds a little strange, but like I said, there's examples through history of people accessing their mind by changing their body. And we talk about mind-body connection or, you know, it's all one thing, but often people are busy. They're thinking, they're on email,

they're doing this. Their brain is so hyperactive and their body is inactive. So for me, I have to flip it around and make my body extremely active in order to quiet my mind and to calm my mind and really think about who I am as a person. So it's a therapy. It's an aesthetic practice. It's a stripping away. And I think in that, you find truth. I mean, you've found it running. I've listened to a really great episode you did about running as spirituality. Oh, with Sanjay Rawal.

Yeah. And it was really amazing, you know, hearing the stories of, yeah, people running or, you know, in the Tarahumara Indians, you know, and just. As a spiritual practice. Yeah. For self-transcendence. Right. So this is nothing new. There's something to it.

I don't go because I want to feel pain. I go because I want to feel joy and enlightenment and learn about myself. let's talk about how you think about yourself as this role model for female empowerment. Do you, like, how do you navigate that? I mean, one thing, I've said it many times on the podcast, but we don't do a very good job in our culture of championing the many powerful women out there that are doing amazing things. We tend to shine the spotlight on, you know,

female quote unquote role models that are perhaps not, you know, the best. And I think there's a lot of women out there, yourself included, who are doing amazing things that I think give me hope as a father of two daughters. But is that something that you are conscious of? And I mean, I know that you're out there trying to foster empowerment in the athletic community with women, but how do you think about these issues? I think about it the same way as my mom did.

I'm just lead by example. And no one sets out to be, you know, when I grow up, I want to be an inspiration. Nobody does that. Well, if you do, there's something wrong with you. And you probably shouldn't be in that role. I mean, yeah, I've made my choices organically. And this is how it all happened. And I do feel like, you know, I've made my choices organically and this is how it all happened. And I do feel like, you know, I've had mentors in my life and perhaps I am one for other people,

but it's really just by leading by example. And you probably know this with your kids. You can tell them something, you know, brush your teeth before dinner or before bed. But if you don't do it yourself, your words don't have a lot of meaning to them as a teacher. And so for me, I feel a responsibility to speak up and to speak out because I do see this shift in this change with more women in politics and government and in sports and CEOs. There is a change happening slowly, but it's happening. And I'm part of it, and it's exciting. And more I feel a responsibility than anything else.

But it's fun. It's so great and rewarding to see my nieces going to college and playing music and art and getting into government. And that's part of that give equals get. It's super rewarding. I get more back from even hosting an event where I see other people crossing the finish line with their arms in the air and they're smiling. I'm as happy helping facilitate that than I am racing myself.

Yeah. You do camps too, right? Yeah. Do you want to come to camp? You're going to get me in your world some way. You can stay in a teepee. Can I? All right.

I'm totally in. I do in the campsite. Yeah, I'm doing more work at home in Idaho. One, because as part of my balance of wanting to stay home more, I love where I live. And I live in a great place to ride bicycles. So why not invite people to come to me? And so then I get to ride, I get to stay home and I get to share with friends, the beautiful place that I live. So the Academy and, and Rebecca's private Idaho are all part of me combining what I need, but also with a way to give back to somebody else. And what is the message that, like, let's envision in your mind, there's a young woman listening to this who perhaps is flirting

with the idea of getting active, but is intimidated and, you know, doesn't live in a place where there's the kind of culture that you have in Ketchum. Like like how can you inspire that person to, you know, engage with their physical being a little bit more? I think women and girls especially are intimidating. And I certainly was to get involved with mountain biking. I was super intimidated. I didn't understand the equipment.

So you won the first race you ever entered. Well, I was running, you know? But you feel, you feel like first race you ever entered. Well, I was running, you know? Um, but you feel, you feel like you don't know enough and there's an intimidation factor that I might not be good. People might make fun of me. I'm not wearing the right thing. I don't have the right gear. Um, and, and really I think that's why I do try to host women and girls camps and things, because I think if you, you've got to just invite somebody in to start with. And as soon as you feel comfortable enough to step out on your own, then, you know, then the floodgates are open. And so for anyone, male or female, I think finding a community that is supportive and whether it's your bike shop or whether it's your friends or whether it's a high school sport, you know, they have high school mountain biking in, they have in school now, uh, high school cycling league,

but it's hard to do alone. And I even find that now at 50, you know, and we were talking about this, my, if my training's not consistent, if I do it alone. And so I've got to find some people and I got to get Dean, you know, to whip, crack the whip a little bit, but none of us can achieve any of it by ourselves. When you're at home, are you doing most of the training by yourself or do you have group rides that you do? Oh, combination, you know, just by sort of timing factor of my day and a bunch of my friends work, you know, regular jobs, um, I'll do, and I'm not a morning person. So I do a lot of afternoon training and sometimes that'll be alone, but then I do need to, um, I do need to pepper it in with some groups

and I have a, you know, a group of three or four good buddies that will go do anything with me at any time. I won my friend that I called the wart because, uh, she's like, I'll, I'll, I'll always be there with you. So I can give her any, like, Oh, I've got to do this heinous workout. You know, will you go do it with me? And she will, you know, I'll always be there with you. So I can give her any, like, oh, I've got to do this heinous workout. You know, will you go do it with me? And she will. You know, she'll be like, oh, that sounds terrible.

Okay, I'll go. Yeah. That's cool. You got to have that person in your life also. Yeah, everyone needs a ward. And to keep you honest, right? That's true. Looking at thinking about the core values that you just shared a few minutes ago, how does that line up with how you think about what's next when you're pondering what your next crazy?

Will you share what you're thinking about doing next? Yeah, I will. And I mean, those core values and the lesson from the Ho Chi Minh Trail and my dad and be good. I mean, it's basically a trail map for me. You know, it's, it's kind of a little checklist of, you know, when I'm making my choices, do they, do they meet those criteria and what's next that I'm super excited about. And it, and it is a evolution from the Ho Chi Minh trail is to, um, and through this foundation, it's, it's to, um, to kind of tackle more of the famous trails in the world

and tell the stories of them. And I think next on the list, Iditarod Trail fell into that. I think next would be Lewis and Clark Trail. And Silk Road is on the list. Silk Road would be amazing. The idea is to get to ride through history, to tell the story, to adventure, experience the people along the way,

and talk about whatever the current social issues are, whether it's public lands, whether it's unexploded ordinance. And so there's a big part of me that wants to use that model of the Ho Chi Minh Trail and Blood Road and go explore some of the other famous trails that's cool that could be like a netflix series just bang these things out it i mean it

could feed my soul and you know for the next 50 years or maybe not the next 50 but netflix just greenlit it it's happening all right that'd be great and then you could come along i would love that that's my kind of deal. Where would you want to ride? Silk Road would be unbelievable. I've been sort of on the internet looking at trails. There's so many great stories of trails. What are the other great ones?

I mean, there is the Trail of Tears is a Native American. They're all migratory or war or exploratory like Lewis and Clark. And they all have a story or a religious pilgrimage. There's so many great trails in the world. So that is kind of what I'm trying to form as the next projects for me. Very cool. Well, awesome to talk to you.

We're gonna get you on a bike ride. Yeah, for sure. On the dirt. I know. I wish I had more time today to ride with you. Busy lives, man. Well, camp in Idaho, Rush Academy starts in early June. Early June. Oh, I got to look at my calendar. It's the best month in Idaho because the wildflowers start blooming. Yeah. All right. We'll talk. Okay. Cool. Thanks, Rich. Thank you. You are an absolute inspiration. Um,

it's incredible what you've done. It's super inspiring. So thank you for sharing with me. Thanks for talking about it and getting me back on with my coach Dean. He'll appreciate it. Yeah. Dean, get me back to training. Get on this girl. She needs your help. It's official now. Um, if people want to check out blood road, It's available on a multitude of platforms right now. Yeah, Red Bull TV, iTunes, Amazon Prime, and then bloodroadfilm.com if somebody wants to host a screening and be part of the Be Good Foundation. Or my website is rebeccarush.com. That has everything there.

And the book, thank you for bringing this. I look forward to reading this, Rush to Glory. This is awesome. So maybe you come back, and after I read this, you can come back and we can talk more. Okay, that sounds really good. All right, cool. Thanks for having me.

Thank you. All right, peace. Bye, it's mountain bikes. She's a badass, right? Like I knew you knew that. You can hear that. You heard it in the intro, but I bet you didn't realize just how like super cool and deep she is.

So hope you guys enjoyed that. I certainly did. Please let Rebecca know what you thought of today's conversation. You can hit her up on Twitter, Instagram, Facebook, all at Rebecca Rush. Don't forget to check out the show notes to expand your experience of her beyond the earbuds. Lots of resources and links to edify you in ways that we can't do with audio. And please check out her amazing documentary film,

Blood Road. You can find that at Red Bull TV. And the really cool recycled ordinance jewelry that we talked about, all of that can be found at article22.com. It really is special stuff. If you're struggling with your diet, if you're trying to master your plate, but you feel like you don't have the time, the budget, the skill set to do it all on your own, please check out our Plant Power Meal Planner. You can find it at meals.richroll.com.

And we're really proud of it. We designed it with one goal in mind, how to make nutritious eating delicious, convenient, and nutritious. And I think we succeeded. When you sign up, you get access to thousands of plant-based recipes, delicious, easy to prepare, totally customized based on all these inputs that you enter when you sign up.

And with that, you get unlimited grocery lists. You get this integration with grocery delivery, so everything you need to prepare the meals just arrives at your doorstep. That's available in most metropolitan areas. Plus, what we're really proud of is our team of nutrition coaches who are at the ready to answer all of your questions

seven days a week. And you get all of this, this incredibly robust program for just $1.90 a week when you sign up for a year, which is an amazing deal. So again, to learn more and to sign up, go to meals.richroll.com or click on Meal Planner on the top menu on my website. If, if, when, I should say, you would like to support the work we do here on the podcast, just tell your friends about your favorite episode, tell them about the show, grab their phone, subscribe them to the show when they're not looking, when they dash off to go to the bathroom or something. Share the show on social

media, take a screen grab of the episode you're listening to, tag me. I like to share that stuff out as well. Subscribe to the show on Apple Podcasts, on YouTube, on Spotify, on Google Podcasts, wherever you listen to this. Leave a review on Apple Podcasts. That's super important. And you can always support us on Patreon by going to richroll.com forward slash donate. Thank you to everybody who has taken that extra step. We really appreciate it. I want to thank everybody who helped put on the show today.

Jason Camiolo for audio engineering, production, show notes, interstitial music. Blake Curtis and Margo Lubin for videoing and editing the podcast, Jessica Miranda for graphics, Allie Rogers for her beautiful photographs, DK for advertiser relationships, and the music as always by Annalema.

Appreciate all of you. Thank you for the love, you guys. I will see you back here next week. We don't have a midweek episode this week. So next week with, wait for it, a conversation with my dad. Yes, Dave Roll is joining the podcast. Lots of thoughts to share about that next week.

It's a good one. I think it's gonna surprise you. Until then, above all, be good, get outdoors, experience nature, nourish your soul, your body, your hearts, and your minds, and give back what you experience, what you learn from that. And I'll see you soon. Peace, plants. Namaste. Thank you.