The Rich Roll Podcast - Rob Bell Is ‘The Heretic’ – Filmmaker Andrew Morgan & Christianity’s Most Polarizing Voice

Episode Date: March 19, 2018

You know that warm, fuzzy feeling you get when two people you love, respect, and admire combine their considerable talents to create a work that exceeds the sum of it's parts? That’s the feeling I h...ave right now. This week I'm proud to share a conversation with two friends, each of whom have graced the show in the past — filmmaker Andrew Morgan and faith provocateur Rob Bell. Several years ago, Andrew approached Rob with an idea to make a film about the former mega-church pastor's life and work. Rob agreed, ultimately granting Andrew unprecedented access to his world on one condition — Rob would have zero editorial input or approval over any aspect of the creative collusion. The result is the recently released documentary, The Heretic* – a behind-the-curtain deep dive into one of the most compelling and polarizing figures in modern day Christianity. With appearances by comedian Pete Holmes and author Elizabeth Gilbert, the film follows Rob over several years as he challenges deeply held conservative ideals while grappling with some of the most important questions of our time: Can faith and science coexist, or do belief and progress stand in opposition? Is religion insufficient for explaining the complexity of our modern world, or does it give language to something even greater? And do spiritual traditions simply serve to further divide our world, or can they offer real help and hope for a better tomorrow? Today we tackle all of it. An internationally recognized filmmaker devoted to telling socially conscious stories for a better tomorrow, Andrew Morgan first graced the podcast back in July 2016 (RRP #236) to discuss his beautiful and heartbreaking documentary The True Cost*. Premiering at the 2015 Cannes Film Festival, it’s a movie about the untold story of fashion. It’s about the clothes we wear, the people who make them, and the impact the garment industry is having on human rights and the world we share. His experience includes a broad range of work that spans narrative and documentary storytelling for multiple film and new media projects that have been filmed and released all over the world. The New York Times described his unique style as “gentle, humane investigations” and Vogue Magazine wrote that it is “evidence that each of us can act as a catalyst for change within our own lives and work together towards a greater good.” An anti-establishment pastor making an indelible cultural impact on how we think and practice religion in the modern world, Rob Bell first appeared on the podcast in October 2016 (RRP #251). A former mega-church pastor who broke ranks with the formal church institutions and ideologies, he is an independent-minded, creative force of nature with what I would describe as a radically inclusive — almost punk rock —perspective on faith, divinity, and what it means to be human. Peace + Plants, Rich

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Starting point is 00:00:00 I think we need tools that are better equipped to help us imagine again. And at its very best, that's, I think, what faith could do is it could help us imagine, hey, we built this world. And for a lot of us, we didn't even build it. We were born into it. But like, when did we lose that sense that we were here to make a new one? We want something to be sacred and holy. We want depth.
Starting point is 00:00:33 We want a sense of wonder and awe in our lives. You want to wake up in the morning with a sense of, I get to do this? That's actually the thing that everybody wants. That's Andrew Morgan and Rob Bell, And this is the Rich Roll Podcast. The Rich Roll Podcast. You know, that awesome, warm, kind of fuzzy feeling that you get when two people that you're very, very fond of, but who, you know, kind of fuzzy feeling that you get when two people that you're very, very fond of, but who you know, independence of each other, end up getting together to conspire, to collaborate, to make something amazing. Two people you love, you respect,
Starting point is 00:01:16 and you admire who combine their skills and their talent to end up producing a creation greater than the sum of its parts. You know what I'm talking about? Are you familiar with this? Have you experienced this? Well, I have, and that's the feeling that I'm having right now. My name is Rich Roll. I am your host, and today I'm super excited to share a conversation with two very good friends who have both graced this show in the past, filmmaker Andrew Morgan and faith
Starting point is 00:01:43 provocateur Rob Bell. Here's the backstory, the history behind all of this. Several years ago, Andrew approached Rob about making a film about Rob's life and his work. Rob agreed, and he ended up giving Andrew basically unprecedented access to his world. Andrew ended up following Rob around for a couple of years. He went on tour with him. And also, I think quite courageously, Rob relinquished all editorial input and approval over the end product of this creative collusion. And the result is the recently released documentary entitled The Heretic, which is a look behind the curtain, behind the scenes into one of the most polarizing figures in modern day Christianity and somebody who challenges deeply held conservative ideals while also taking head on some of the most important questions of our time.
Starting point is 00:02:38 Like, what does it mean to be human? I love these guys. I really love the film, and I have so many more thoughts about them and the movie and this conversation that I want to share before diving into our exchange. But first, I have a couple very important announcements. As you know, if you've been listening to this podcast, Julie and I have a brand new cookbook and lifestyle guide coming out soon. It's called The Plant Power Way Italia. It hits bookstores April 24th. And it's super awesome. If you enjoyed our first cookbook, The Plant Power Way, I promise you, I guarantee you, you're going to love this one because it really is across the board next level. 125 extraordinary plant-based Italian recipes for the family, all inspired by our experience hosting retreats in Tuscany and working with the chefs of the region. We like to think of it as sort of Italian food 2.0. The production quality is off the hook. The photography is insane. It's a book you're going to want to leave out on the coffee table rather than tucked
Starting point is 00:03:34 away on the shelf or in the cupboard. And it's available for pre-order now on my website and all your favorite online booksellers. But here's a part of the announcement that I really want to make. In celebration of this age of women's empowerment, this extraordinary cultural moment that we're currently experiencing, Julie and I thought it would be really awesome and cool and special to do something out of the box,
Starting point is 00:04:00 to offer a spot to the upcoming sold-out Plant Power World Italy retreat that inspired the book to one female reader who pre-orders the Plant Power Way Italia. This is quite the offer. It's a $5,000 value. The winner will join us in Tuscany this upcoming May 19-26, 2018 for an amazing week of yoga, meditation, exploration, transformation, trail running, tea ceremony, community at this truly magical location. The spot includes accommodation in a female shared room, all the programming, all the meals. To learn more about
Starting point is 00:04:39 the retreat, you can go to ourplantpowerworld.com. And to enter this contest, the way to do that is to visit the episode page for this episode of the podcast on my website at richroll.com. And you'll find all the rules and this special form to fill out there. The contest is only open through May 24. So you might want to jump on it now. And to sweeten the pot, everybody who enters will also receive a download link to the first chapter of the brand new revised and updated version of my first book, Finding Ultra. I got more I'm going to say about that later this week and next week, because I spent a whole year rewriting Finding Ultra, and I'm excited about that as well. More
Starting point is 00:05:19 on that later. In any event, again, episode page on my website, richroll.com, fill out the form, and go from there we're brought to you today by recovery.com i've been in recovery for a long time it's not hyperbolic to say that i owe everything good in my life to sobriety. And it all began with treatment and experience that I had that quite literally saved my life. And in the many years since, I've in turn helped many suffering addicts and their loved ones find treatment. And with that, I know all too well just how confusing and how overwhelming and how challenging it can be to find the right place and the right level of care, especially because, unfortunately, not all treatment resources adhere to ethical practices.
Starting point is 00:06:10 It's a real problem. A problem I'm now happy and proud to share has been solved by the people at recovery.com who created an online support portal designed to guide, to support, and empower you to find the ideal level of care tailored to your personal needs. Thank you. disorders, gambling addictions, and more. Navigating their site is simple. Search by insurance coverage, location, treatment type, you name it. Plus, you can read reviews from former patients to help you decide. Whether you're a busy exec, a parent of a struggling teen, or battling addiction yourself, I feel you. I empathize with you. I really do. And they have treatment options for you. Life and recovery is wonderful. And recovery.com is your partner in starting that journey. When you or a loved one
Starting point is 00:07:14 need help, go to recovery.com and take the first step towards recovery. To find the best treatment option for you or a loved one, again, go to recovery.com. All right, should we talk about today's guests and today's conversation? Let's do that. Andrew Morgan, Rob Bell. Andrew is an internationally recognized filmmaker devoted to telling socially conscious stories for a better tomorrow. He first graced the podcast back in July of 2016, that was RRP 236, to talk about
Starting point is 00:07:47 his amazing documentary True Cost, which premiered at Cannes and takes a hard look at the very real and often tragic human rights and environmental implications of our cultural addiction to something called fast fashion. Definitely check it out on Netflix or Amazon if you have yet to see it, and you can hear more about Andrew's story back in that early episode, 236. Rob Bell first appeared on the podcast back in October of 2016. That was RRP 251, and he's a little trickier to describe, I think it's fair to say, a former megachurch pastor who broke ranks with the formal institutions of the church and the more conservative ideologies that it serves up. Rob is an independent-minded, sometimes provocative, creative force of nature with what I would describe as a radically inclusive, almost punk rock perspective on everything from faith to divinity to religion
Starting point is 00:08:47 and what it means to be truly human in the modern world. As for the formal bio, Rob is the New York Times bestselling author of Love Wins, What We Talk About When We Talk About God, The Zim Zum of Love, and How to Be Here. His most recent book is entitled What is the Bible? And iTunes named his podcast, The Robcast, Best of 2015. He's been profiled in The New Yorker. He's toured with Oprah. And in 2011, Time Magazine named him one of the 100 most influential people in the world.
Starting point is 00:09:23 He has a regular show at Largo here in Los Angeles, the legendary music and comedy club in West Hollywood. If you're in LA and he's got to show up, you got to check it out. It's really something to behold. And currently he's in the midst of a tour called Holy Shift. Anyway, I had the opportunity to attend the premiere of The Heretic a few weeks back. And like I said, I loved it. It's elegantly crafted. And honestly, it's about so much more than just Rob and his work and his life. As a sort of interesting side anecdote to all of this, Rob hadn't seen a single frame
Starting point is 00:09:59 of the film until the premiere screening. So I kept craning my neck around to try to gauge his reaction. What does it feel like to watch a movie about yourself? In any event, I think the movie is really about beauty. It's about bravery. It's about courage, grace. It's about how to find union and community in this polarizing and confusing moment that we're currently experiencing amidst our current culture of
Starting point is 00:10:26 divisiveness and discontent and really religion gone awry. So make a point of checking out the film on Amazon or iTunes. And without further ado, here is me and Andrew and Rob. and Andrew and Rob. I always go into these things thinking, what if I just have a total brain fart? Yeah. Like I have no idea what to say.
Starting point is 00:10:54 Dude, is everything in my teeth? Nothing in your teeth? No. Also, I saw that camera and I was cool. No, you're doing great. There's, your eyes goes like. Just make sure you're kind of conscious of that. Do I want to be close to it? No, that's good.
Starting point is 00:11:05 Yeah, you're good like that. You're at two a week now. I do a second one every other week, so I'm doing like six a month. That's a lot. So definitely ramped up. Do you feel the difference? Like, is that a big change? Yeah.
Starting point is 00:11:20 I mean, it was like, it's sort of like when you have one kid and that's a lot of work. And then when you have a second child, you think it's going to be double the amount of work, but it's like five times the amount. It's sort of like that. But I've been better about like batching and systematizing what I do and delegating and things like that. So it hasn't been that bad. Do you do most of them here in person? I know you do some stuff like I see. Yeah, I mean, when I travel, like I take my stuff with me, so I do them on the road. And then, you know,
Starting point is 00:11:48 sometimes people like, I want to do it, but there's no way I'm driving to Calabasas. So, you know, I'll make exceptions, but I'm trying to do them here as much as possible. So thank you for making the way out here today. I'm super excited to talk to you both. As I kind of posted on Instagram the other day, it just warmed my heart to be at the screening of the movie and to see two people that I care for and respect deeply get together to create something that's greater than the sum of its parts. It was just such a cool thing because I know each of you independence of each other. And then to see two people that like, I have so much respect for like collaborate
Starting point is 00:12:30 and make this amazing thing. It was just, it was a really special thing. So I can't imagine what it's like for you, but I was really honored to be at the screening. The movie is incredible and it's now out in the world and that's gotta be an exciting feeling for you guys. Yeah, it's really exciting for me. It's probably strange for you.
Starting point is 00:12:48 It was Andrew's idea. I know. It's Andrew's idea. Rob's very clear to point that out, yeah. I just don't wanna get any credit thrown my way for what was all Andrew. Well, it's a cool story in that you had not seen the movie until the premiere,
Starting point is 00:13:04 which put you in a precarious sort of emotional state, I would imagine. How was that watching it for the first time? It was totally surreal and overwhelming. I was sort of prepared for it and sort of not. And sitting like in the fourth row with my wife, Kristen, and then our kids, and something about the fact that my kids
Starting point is 00:13:24 went to the concession stand and had like popcorn and candy. Somehow it's one of my enduring memories of looking down the row at my family watching this movie or my kids watching this movie about their dad. Somehow it's like weird, the details. But it had like a this is your life sort of thing.
Starting point is 00:13:45 Almost like an sort of thing. Yeah. Almost like an out of body. This is like, if we showed you, this is where your life is going, you'd be like, no way. Right. And you set up on stage afterwards, like, oh, like that's how I sound.
Starting point is 00:13:56 And that's how I, this is how it's coming off. Right. Like that feeling in the eighties when your parents got an answering machine and you as kids, you're like recording, like, hello, you've called our house. And then you'd play it back and be like, I remember talking to my sister and me like,
Starting point is 00:14:08 wait, is that what my voice sounds like? This was like a really big version of that. Yeah. It's so funny. And what's kind of, you know, curious about it, Andrew, is that you kind of did this kind of quietly and surreptitiously. Like you weren't checking in with Rob.
Starting point is 00:14:24 Like at one point, Rob, you're like, is that thing still, are you still making that movie like five years later? And you must've been, when you came on the podcast originally, Andrew, you must've been in the midst of shooting at that time too. And you didn't mention anything about it at that time. Like you seem like somebody who as an artist,
Starting point is 00:14:42 like really likes to keep things under wraps until you're ready to say anything about it. Yeah. That's a nice way of saying it. I think I, there's a lot of things that, um, have fallen through, you know, for me. And I think sometimes I've realized it's just better to talk about it after the fact. And also, also though, I think there's actually something, this one is the most private thing we've ever done.
Starting point is 00:15:03 And I think there was something, when you talk about it, I think you give a little bit of it away in a certain sense, like for your own sake. Like this one was very personal and it was very private all the way up until the point that we released it. And it's, yeah, I like doing it this way better. Having done it this way, we've crowdfunded and other things before that kind of requires you to be a lot more upfront.
Starting point is 00:15:23 But yeah, this was just a really, I don't know, just creatively speaking, this was pretty pure. This like independent financing, no one over our shoulder, no timeline. And yeah, it's a really good way to make something. Yeah, and it's beautifully conceptualized and put together. I think it paints an incredible portrait of Rob and who you are as a human being and the work that you do and the impact that your work is having on the world. And I said to Andrew before you got here, I was like, you watched the movie and even if you had
Starting point is 00:15:59 no idea who Rob is, you leave that movie with, I think, a pretty good sense of what you're all about and the impact that you're trying to have. He did really capture your essence by following around those many years. And it's cool. And I think there's something about the way the universe conspires to bring these, to manifest these types of things at the perfect moment, because we're to manifest these types of things at the perfect moment because we're experiencing a very unique period of time right now. I mean, just last week, as I'm sure you saw, there was that bizarre church that held that vigil where people were wearing crowns of bullets and people brought in their AR-15s.
Starting point is 00:16:42 And admittedly, this is a very fringe organization, but at the same time, I couldn't help but think how in some ways that perfectly captures what's going on culturally right now, ideas around faith and religion and the church and Jesus with ideas that kind of swirl around the flag and guns and nationalism. Like we're at a fever pitch with this right now. And I think that that kind of goes to the heart at many of the things that you talk about. Absolutely. And if you think about human development for thousands of years, there's the move from egocentric to tribal centric, but then the absolutely necessary development from tribal centric to world centric. And in times of great change or disruption or crisis or trauma, we as individuals, there's always the temptation will this pain break you open so that you'll move to greater inclusion complexity and depth or will the pain cause you to regress to
Starting point is 00:17:55 dig in your heels and you're seeing right now a lot of digging in yeah yeah you're seeing right now a regression to uh tribal ethnocentrism do you feel like that's a natural uh you know part of the natural process of eventually um transcending that yeah right i mean that that is the question and the arc i mean the really interesting thing about the arc of the universe is it keeps moving forward i mean that's the great mystery at the heart of it all is particles forms atom and atoms bond together and form molecules and molecules form cells. Like it has a natural drive to an unfolding unity,
Starting point is 00:18:34 weirdly enough, underneath it all. So even hearing about whatever that church service thing is, I'm sure your listeners are like, wait, there's something very wrong. That's the wrong direction. So even in saying, how could they do that? You're with, you're gathering with millions of people going, and that's not where we're headed. You know what I mean? I hope not. Right, right, right. But we are seeing this, this, you know, reversion to, you know, these ideas of nationalism and this kind of reverence for
Starting point is 00:19:05 our automatic weapons and and sort of wrapping ourselves in the flag as if that somehow has anything to do with the truth behind the christian traditions and and what jesus was all about and like it's so bizarre and confusing yeah and. And the human heart, we want something to be sacred and holy. We want depth. We want a sense of wonder and awe in our lives. And what's interesting is the gun for a segment of the population has become the new unquestioned absolute. It's become the sacred thing. and why do you think that is uh i actually would argue that america was birthed even the
Starting point is 00:19:56 story that we were in school about how columbus discovered america and you're like was anybody already here yes so yeah footnote footnote how have you discovered something if someone's already there yeah so in some senses the narrative was skewed from the get-go well you speak about this all the time that history is dictated by the winners by the winners this is the prism through which we interpret historical so we quickly marginalized the people who are here, in some cases outright slaughtered. And then much of that early economy was built on the backs of slaves. And when this tribe gathers to sing, our national anthem has the line,
Starting point is 00:20:36 bombs bursting in air. Like when we sing of our unifying myth, we talk about bombs. So we're about 4 percent of the world's population we have something like forty percent of its weaponry by the way this is the nation with 750 bases military bases around the world this is the one nation that has the most mass shootings so there is a there is a violence built into the whole thing and it just keeps coming up. And I would argue that is the great thing that's being unmasked, is the story has been peace, prosperity, freedom, democracy,
Starting point is 00:21:17 which we're all for. But it has had an underbelly of violence. Yeah, there's this percolating sort of fermentation of dissatisfaction and disassociation and frustration with a lot of people who kind of did the right thing, went to church on Sunday and got the job and went to college or whatever and climbed that corporate ladder and arrived at a place only to discover that, to coin a phrase that you've used in the past,
Starting point is 00:21:54 like maybe they put the ladder up against the wrong wall. Where's that sense of peace and fulfillment and purpose that I was promised? And then when you're left with that and you have been sort of disillusioned by the traditions of religion, what do you do with that energy? Right, right. And you have lots of people who are witnessing to this system didn't deliver what it was supposed to deliver.
Starting point is 00:22:23 Yeah. Even when I was traveling in the Bible Belt last year in the deep south and Andrew was filming, the sense... None of those things are recommended, by the way. Yeah, you just keep going back. You haven't even gotten in full swing on the Holy Shift tour, right? You're still going down south. We go all over.
Starting point is 00:22:44 We go all over yeah we go all over um but it was so interesting how many people the up and to the right understanding of things well you'll make more money and you'll get more square footage like as long as it's up and to the right it must be good the unquestioned adherence and affirmation of more, Amazon can get it cheaper within two hours, then that must be good. And people beginning to question that story, which for many people was the dominant story. Right, and the kind of ladder analogy falls apart
Starting point is 00:23:19 because that implies that there's a top rung, but there's always another rung. So once you get to that rung, you're like, well, I'm not feeling it yet, but that new Tesla is coming out next year or whatever. There's always another something to clutch at, thinking this is the thing that's going to solve that hole in my heart. Yeah, yeah. And I love Abraham Joshua Heschel, who marched with Martin Luther King,
Starting point is 00:23:41 this legendary rabbi. He said, I didn't ask for success. I asked for wonder. And then he said, I didn't ask for success. I asked for wonder. And then he says, and God gave it to me. That what you actually want is a sense of wonder and awe. You want to wake up in the morning with a sense of, I get to do this. That's actually the thing that everybody wants. And we'll trade lots of things for that. So how do we pursue that? Well, what's interesting is how many people, when you ask them about their life, wants and we would we'll trade lots of things for that so how do we how do we pursue that well what's interesting how many is how many people when you ask them about their life i'm struck
Starting point is 00:24:10 with how many people witness to a thread that has been there from way back there's something that was speaking to them the whole time and sometimes like uh i have a relative who if anything's broken he becomes exhilarated because he gets to fix it like just set him anywhere and he comes to life when there's something that needs to be mended i know people who are healers you you you you show them somebody with a broken heart and they come to life i know people who like i mean we could go on this table and talk about people we know who they've had a they've been bent a particular way since the very very you know since way back so i the most interesting thing to me is just start asking people questions when did you most feel alive when have you been caught up in something that you lost track of time what is
Starting point is 00:25:00 something that when you do it it's both exhausting but strangely exhilarating you do it, it's both exhausting, but strangely exhilarating. You're tired, but it's good tired. What is it that when you do it, you think, man, I could do this forever. It's interesting how many people can witness to something. I also think that's a really hard question to answer for a lot of people. Yes, yes. Because we're so disconnected. Right, right. We've never been asked that question before.
Starting point is 00:25:23 Even asking people what they want. How many people lock up even at that basic question desire as something that was supposed to be repressed and sublimated for the greater of something as opposed to no seriously like what do you want and and so how do you think about faith and religion uh and and spirituality in that context. I always, I begin with the whole thing as a gift and how you respond to it matters. I begin with gift. You're here. And regardless of how your heart's been broken and how easy it is to roll your eyes
Starting point is 00:25:57 and fall prey to cynicism and all the money you've lost and relationships that fell apart, something within you, this is a gift and you know it that you're here and you're breathing so let's start there and how you respond to it matters and despair is the spiritual disease of yeah it doesn't really matter despair is tomorrow will just be a repeat of today. None of it really matters. Or despair can get manifest in these violent outbursts that we're seeing.
Starting point is 00:26:31 Yes, exactly. Regularity. So I begin there and then oftentimes it's the imagination. If despair is tomorrow will simply be a repeat of today. There's like a disruption. if despair is tomorrow will simply be a repeat of today there's like a disruption there's the invitation to a disruption which is what if tomorrow wasn't like today what if what if i mean some people move into smaller houses so they have less bills so they don't have to work as much like i'll do that with a live audience and people will laugh really really hard at that because i
Starting point is 00:27:03 think it's a joke but they'll laugh at that like, oh, you're right. It's amazing the amount of people, the amount of times I've done stuff around that. You could work for the next 18 months and save and then leave and go travel. People do that. I mean, I do it sort of like tongue in cheek over the top,
Starting point is 00:27:22 but it's amazing to the number of people. Or you could quit your job. People do that because they realize that it's actually killing them. It's an amazing number of people who quit their jobs on the spot. I say my batting average is 30. I know. You cause a lot of people to quit their jobs. But, you know, I did an event, and a guy raises his hand, and he says,
Starting point is 00:27:43 okay, I have a question. He says, I'm a lawyer, and i have this office full of lawyers and i decided to expand my law firm so we opened up a second office two hours away and then i hired a bunch of lawyers for that office so i'm driving back and forth between the two he says then i hired someone in charge of human resources then i hired a cfo and now we've got more cases, more clients, more money coming in. And I'm feeling all this pressure. I'm feeling all this, like sort of, I got to keep this whole thing going. I was like, hold on, hold on. Uh, who hired all the people? He's like, I did. I was like, who decided to open a second office? I did. Uh, who decided to bring in a human resources director and a CFO? He's like,
Starting point is 00:28:21 I did. I said, do you feel like you're pushing a rock up a hill? He's like, yeah. I was like, who built the rock? Right. He's like, I did. I was like, well, what do you want? What kind of life do you want? How many hours do you want to work? How many employees do you want? How many cases do you want? And what's so fascinating? He's like, I don't know. I never thought about it. It was like a reflexive just build it yeah yeah because yeah it's it's it's living it's in response to just the the cultural mores of of build and grow and get bigger and you know and and i would imagine even at times he probably thought well if i hire all these people then it will reduce the load on me but ultimately it just increases yes the pressure and to me that's the great gift of a tradition faith spirituality religion ideally is it creates space where you can reflect where you have village elders
Starting point is 00:29:14 ideally who are way older than you but younger at some important level who can like help you sift and soar what matters what doesn't um So I would say that those spaces where you can ask questions and be asked questions about your life. And there are resources and people who can say, oh, yeah, yeah, I've been through that. The solidarity of someone can be like, oh, yeah, I faced the same question. Here's how I answered it. I would start at the most basic level with that. Here's how I answered it. I would start at the most basic level with that.
Starting point is 00:29:50 Andrew, when did you first meet Rob? And what got you interested in pursuing this? Yeah, it's interesting. It's really interesting listening to you guys talk. I think we met three years ago at a birthday party that our daughters were attending. Our daughters were attending. And we started a conversation, and I was very, very, very interested on a personal level. I'd grown up in a very conservative, religious, evangelical place. And I'd kind of grown away from a lot of that.
Starting point is 00:30:16 And I think I had really thrown my life into what I felt like were some of the emergencies happening on planet Earth. And I kind of didn't care. I didn't really have time. I wasn't interested in things that felt non-important to that endeavor. And at the same time, I think, even when I talked to you last time, Rich, I think I'd come through a period of time where I had begun to look at the world and realize that there were some root causes
Starting point is 00:30:41 that kept bringing an enormous amount of pain to the surface. And there were some things that if we were going to get serious about really creating a more just, humane, beautiful future up ahead, that we couldn't just put band-aids on like ancillary items. We were going to have to get serious about like, what are the stories? What are the assumptions? What are the narratives that built this world? Because it's not working. It's not working. Soaring inequality, environmental crisis, mental health, refugee crisis. Go down the list. I think as a person, maybe part of it was just kind of coming out of the arrogance of youth.
Starting point is 00:31:14 Like when you're really young, you think you have it figured. You know what I mean? So for me, it was like, we'll just make enough sad documentaries and people will do the right thing. The world will spin the other way on its axis. So I think what I was really asking is, what is it going to take for human beings to wake up? And so when I met Rob, not only was it interesting because of some of my personal past and background, I think I felt like some of what he was articulating, some of the questions he was asking, cut to the very heart, to the very center of what kind of world are we making and why. And the damage of some of those spiritual,
Starting point is 00:31:46 religious, faith-based stories is egregious and continues to be. And yet, I think there is a hollow center if there's nothing else. If there's nothing pulling us towards an openness, a training on how we get violence out of circulation, a guide to how I forgive people who have like really hurt me. Those things that he was articulating were just really fascinating. And as I started to follow him around to a couple of events, I began to realize my story wasn't that rare, that I think there's a lot of people, and by a lot, I mean like a lot, a lot, a lot of people who grew up, were handed some narrow tradition. It didn't keep pace with the complexity of the world they found themselves in.
Starting point is 00:32:28 And they kind of put it aside. And probably rightfully so in a lot of things. And yet, as Pete Holmes says in the film, they still felt an ache. They still felt a longing for a space to keep them open to the possibility of just how significant this place is. Just how important the story
Starting point is 00:32:43 that we're somehow mystically in the middle of is. Like that was just really fascinating stuff to me. So I sat down with Rob and Kristen and I just said, I've never made a film like this. It doesn't really make sense on paper, but I'd like to film some of the conversations that we've been having.
Starting point is 00:32:58 I'd like to film the work you're doing, some of the people that you're doing it with, and then we'll see what it turns into. Right, see if there'll be a movie like without knowing like going into you know this this this unknown territory of just like hoping something will happen or a narrative will appear yeah and that was like five years ago right yeah that was like yeah yeah like three three and a half years ago yeah and what's interesting about that timing too rich is that is that that was 2015. And in 2015, I think, and it's interesting, like, you're a very, very optimistic person,
Starting point is 00:33:30 Rob, and that's amazing. And that's, I said that night at the premiere, you're one of the least cynical people I've ever known. And I've benefited immensely from that. But I also think when we started filming, that was 2015. In 2015, I think we all felt like Obama was going to get a third term, that we were somehow on this slide towards inevitable progress in some not so subtle ways. And then 2016 came around, and it was like, I think all the volume got turned up, and I think we had a fresh reminder of just how destructive bad stories can be to the individual human psyche, all the way to the collective life we have together. And I think it was at that moment that I was like, I wanted to make the film and now I know why we're making the film. Yeah. I mean, set against the backdrop of
Starting point is 00:34:15 what's happening culturally right now, it just makes it extremely relevant. We're so divided and we're confused about what's important. And that ache that Pete talks about in the movie is very real. And I think all of us can relate to it. And whether we were brought up in the church or with no tradition whatsoever, we've kind of bought into this cultural gestalt of more, more you know, consume our way to bliss and happiness. And when we find out that that doesn't solve the wound and we're left wanting and our heart is yearning for something more, where do we look? And I think that despondency can grow out of that, or it can mushroom cloud into twisted notions of what faith is all about that further divide us. And that's, I think like the only upside of that
Starting point is 00:35:05 is that the tremendous gift this moment gives us is this kind of fresh humility that we've come to the end of a lot of stories. Like we've played out several stories now, the consumer story, the wealth, build it, build it, build it, the success, even some of the America story that's really starting to show its cracks.
Starting point is 00:35:27 That's profound because we've put a lot of passive faith in those stories serving us well. And so, to wake up to a moment where we're like, globally on the environmental level, that's not working. The consumer story leads us to a horrendous end. I mean, the way we produce food, the way you go down the line. And I think that's the amazing thing that's happening is we are like in this world between worlds. Like we really are still living in a world that was kind of built like out of the industrial revolution. I mean, like really, like our, even our metaphors and our assumptions like are still, they're so out of pace with where we are, and yet somehow we've lacked the collective imagination to get serious about what's next. And you see it on a variety of levels. So, like, you know,
Starting point is 00:36:11 we have soaring inequality, we have an economic system that is, even the most fervent fans couldn't tell you it paints a picture of a happy ending, and yet how much collective imagination have we had about what we could do? Like, what we could create going forward? And part of my, I think, picking back up some kind of spirituality came from this place of realizing, I think we need tools that are better equipped to help us imagine again. And at its very best, that's, I think, what faith could do is it could help us imagine, hey, we built this world. And for a lot of us, we didn't even build it. We were born into it. But like, when did we lose that sense that we were here to make a new one? Like,
Starting point is 00:36:56 when did we ever like stop? You know what I mean? Like, I just, that's the shift that you can paint it negatively. And I feel the pain too. I feel the negativity right now too. But there's also like, we've been waiting several lifetimes, I think, to get to a moment where there was enough humility around the table to be like, yeah, it's not working. We don't have it fixed.
Starting point is 00:37:16 And so maybe now we could start again. I think it speaks to the lack of humility, this idea that as human beings, we've got it all figured out and we're living the pinnacle of what human civilization is capable of, which is clearly not the case. And I like that idea of being in an in-between stage. It's sort of like,
Starting point is 00:37:42 this is a terrible analogy but like like like early like like when special effects just came online with movies but they were really bad you know or like or like the beginning of plastic surgery you're like oh that wasn't that good but like you know 50 years from now it'll be so you won't be able to tell you know like that but we're in that like in between zone where it's like yeah it's not working very well you know and, it's like that. But we're in that like in-between zone where it's like, yeah, it's not working very well. You know, and it's like, what is to come is uncertain, you know? And I think, you know, stepping out to say something about that is what we need right now. And it's beautiful.
Starting point is 00:38:18 So when you look at Rob, like how does Rob speak to these issues? And, you know, what does Rob represent, Rob and his work represent to you in this conversation, in this dialogue? Well, part of what I'm, and I'm a little bit younger than the two of you, and I say that only because I think one of the challenges that people my age have had is we have kind of come into the world in a sense. is we have kind of come into the world in a sense. So like we've spent the last decade or two decades sort of deconstructing our belief in almost every institution, which in some ways that's pointing out corruptness, that's saying this didn't serve us well, that didn't work well, and that has a lot of value. The downside to that is those institutions represented
Starting point is 00:38:59 are only collective touch points. So what that means is you have a very, you have a whole generation of people coming into the world, myself included, that almost had to navigate it like we were the first human beings. And the air of that was kind of like, when you look at the world and all the things that we need to sort out and all the things we need to, it's almost like we had cut ourself off from any tradition we'd come from, which was good because a bunch of the bullshit that we didn't want was gone. But it severed us from looking back to, has anyone faced these questions before? Has anyone had to figure these things out?
Starting point is 00:39:36 Have human beings been asking these? So I think when I met Rob and I started to experience part of his work, Rob and I started to experience part of his work, it was like that sense of we need something to anchor us or to root us more deeply if we're going to be the people that grow more fully. Like, we're going to need to borrow some ancient wisdom here. This isn't going to just be like a blog post and we fix climate change. This is going to have to, we're going to have to look back and figure out, like, where do these traditions come from and what did they offer human beings? And in spite of all the bad and all the outgrowth and all the, you know, all the stuff that I think people dismiss the whole thing with, were there tools inside of those things that could still serve us now? And I think that's what I saw in Rob's work
Starting point is 00:40:25 initially was that sense of, when I say humility, I mean, for me as a person, it has been like, I think we're going to need to look everywhere. I think if we're going to solve some of the issues that we're facing as a world, we're going to have to look into places we haven't looked before. You know, like, I mean, I think while we're living out right now it's like we've we've looked at our national political system as it's like that that's not going to be the end like come on you know that's not really going to get us out of this place i think that's it's it's super interesting what you just said and i'm seeing it in other areas too like i don't know if you've noticed like there's this sort of heralding this this celebrating of the traditions of stoicism lately that's now
Starting point is 00:41:05 become like a cultural movement, like going back to before. And Rob, you know, you're somebody who's painted as a progressive or a universalist or somebody who's putting a modern spin on, you know, these ancient traditions, but that's not really what you're doing. What you're doing is you're going back to the beginning before the institutionalization of all of these ideas to get at the ideas themselves. Yeah, yeah. And the word radical comes from the Latin word radix. It means root.
Starting point is 00:41:37 So a radish is a root vegetable. The radical isn't the person who sort of wandered off into the deep weeds. The radical is the person who goes back to source, who like goes back, who just goes back even farther. And oftentimes what happens is these giant traditions and institutions get built up. And then if somebody says,
Starting point is 00:41:56 Hey, let's, let's explore over here. They're like, Oh, you're breaking code. It's like, no,
Starting point is 00:42:02 I'm actually inviting us all to get back to source and our original roots. And so many of these things you think about, well, like second century Celtic spirituality. So this is 1800 years ago at the center of Celtic spirituality was proper care for the earth, that there is an inextricable bond between humans and the soil, and you protect that relationship, and you care for and cultivate the land with an eye for sustainability and loving care. So a lot of ideas...
Starting point is 00:42:38 Yeah, we kind of forgot about that one. Well, what's funny, it's interesting, like a lot of people, a lot of ideas that appear like more needed and whatever language people use, progressive, et cetera, some of these ideas are thousands of years old. I mean, there's a line in the Psalms about this book of prayers in the middle of the Bible about how even in laughter, the heart aches, the non-duality of your heart that present within you at any moment is joy and transcendence and euphoria and ache and loneliness and anger and rage and
Starting point is 00:43:16 you are this fascinating even the very simple binary how are you doing today good or bad thousands of years ago people were witnessing to those simple categories don't work when you're talking about your interior life. And a lot of people were raised in a world that gave them no tools for navigating their interior life. So you're just left with just push it down. Just whatever you do, push it down. But you have thousands and thousands of
Starting point is 00:43:46 years ago you have people saying prayers and poems and songs trying to name these deaths because if you can give them language then they don't haunt you if you can drag them up then you're less likely that which you submerge will come out in some other way. Or you think about like the Hebrew prophets, one of like the Hebrew prophet Amos, this is sort of old Testament. His big thing was you have a widening gap between rich and poor, and that's going to be bad for everybody. And when you have more and more wealth in the hands of a few,
Starting point is 00:44:20 that's going to be devastating for everybody. So every person who's ever said, I'm with Bernie, I mean, Bernie is channeling, whether you voted for him or agree with all his policies, when Bernie taps into something and thousands of people go, there's something about that, he's tapping into very ancient truths and impulses. Well, the Jesus story itself is very much about that.
Starting point is 00:44:44 I mean, I went to your Christmas show and it just like blew my mind because I was like, yeah, I went to church, but I don't really know that much about it. And when you kind of broke down the historical context in which this story arose and why, in your opinion, it became so timeless and potent and then tied that to what's going on in our current culture right now. It's like shocking the parallels. Absolutely. Christmas is the ultimate. I love doing that Christmas show because Christmas is such a neutered sort of,
Starting point is 00:45:20 you know, we give presents and apparently there might be a nativity scene, although Fox News will have a story about how sometimes. There's a tree and a guy and like a fat guy and like what does that have to do with right this is pregnant jewish teenagers on the run with the boot of an empire on their neck and the birth of a new kind of king was a political threat to the current king they believe that galilee in the first century taxation rates were somewhere around 90 i mean you and you have a whole history of revolt during that time it was a politically volatile time and there was a dominant narrative of empire which was peace through victory which is basically crush everybody the roman empire crush everybody doesn't agree
Starting point is 00:45:58 with you um it's peace through victory because everybody who opposed it is dead. And this story had particular, it's the original Rage Against the Machine. It is, I mean, this story was a loaded sociopolitical economic counter-narrative. Yeah, I mean, talk about radical, revolutionary. Speaking truth to power. Somehow that story got co-opted by empire, which is insidious. I mean, a lot of people talk about the fourth century. In the fourth century, the Emperor Constantine essentially co-opted the Jesus movement. And sort of, hey, people find this compelling. Okay, then I'll take it and sort of co-opt it for my own political purposes.
Starting point is 00:46:46 And a lot of people point something really deep. Because this Jesus movement was share your possessions, have a common meal, make sure everybody's rent is paid. Sacrificial love is how the world is made better. And your connection with the earth, with each other, with yourself, with the divine. But right away then then right after that you have the birth of the idea of original sin which was that people are first and foremost wretched and depraved as opposed to there's an inherent goodness that every human being has a
Starting point is 00:47:17 dignity and a divine imprint that regardless of what they've done they still bear that there's a holiness and sanctity to every single person. You respect them and look out for them as you'd look out for yourself. Like you think about how many things in the fourth century, and people say, well, that's just religion. That's just sort of primitive. Those strands get people elected in 2016. I mean, they're still wafting in the air.
Starting point is 00:47:42 Yeah, it's crazy. I mean, this is one of the big lines in the air yeah it's it's uh it's crazy i mean this is the you know the the one of the big lines in the movie where you say you know i honestly believe that if jesus was alive today and he he would be you know i don't know i can't remember the exact word mortified oh yeah that's so sorry religion in his name yeah but then when you turn on the television and you see people draped in flags and carrying guns and they're aligning this with some kind of religious tradition, it's like somewhere along the way we've lost our way. Completely, completely, completely. There is a shared humanity that every way that you can cook up to divide yourselves, there is a shared common humanity that you have with every human being that overrides that. And so you listen to that.
Starting point is 00:48:34 It's like you keep your ear bent towards that. And if there's anything at the heart of the Jesus story, it was always the inclusion and the universal embrace of all people everywhere. So the idea of some sort of, well, these people are in, these people are out, these people have favor, these people, I don't know about them. It's just completely contrary to the story. So Andrew, you go on the road with Rob and travel all over the place watch him speak you you interview you know some of his amazing co-collaborators there's pete rollins and pete holmes and um who else is interviewed in the movie we have elizabeth yeah liz i should tell you a story about him on the road though there's a good story one moment tell it now we're uh man i want to say Charlotte North Carolina because Andrew keeps his cool
Starting point is 00:49:26 he's amazing he just keeps it but he came bursting into the green room right before I was going to go on like with this child at Christmas like oh man oh man alright and I was like what is it and he's like we have friends and I was like we have friends and he And he's like, we have friends. And I was like, we have friends. And he's grabbing like an extra camera as he rushes out of the green room and he says, protesters.
Starting point is 00:49:53 Yeah, it's like filmmaker gold. I was like, is this like in your world? Is that like gold? And he was like, there was like this big gift to him that there was somebody out front with a bullhorn. Yeah. And you see that in the movie that that's from that event um i mean and you had told me this prior uh you know like yeah there's people that protest me where when i go and and speak and i was like i kind of i thought maybe a couple people standing out front but i was like no those those people mean they meant business no joke you know so so tell me where they're coming from and what they represent man that's a good question um it's really strong it's stronger
Starting point is 00:50:31 than i knew when i first met rob there is um yeah people are people aren't happy about what he's doing um i mean an enormous group of people are but yeah there's there's a really strong contingent and it cuts right to the core of um of who they are and how they see the world. I mean, I think it's, I think ultimately more than anything else, I think what Rob's challenging is he's challenging a sense of what he just said, insiders, outsiders, us, them. We're right, they're wrong. I mean, that has been the tremendous conclusion of a lot of religion is that we're right. We found the answer. And these people over here haven't. And I think to even begin to articulate something that's more inclusive than that is profoundly offensive to people. Because I think religion for a lot of people does simplify
Starting point is 00:51:21 a really maddening, complex world we find ourselves living in. You know, it's columns, it's categories, it's black, it's white. And so I think when Rob comes along and says, there's a whole lot more color in this picture. And let's just be honest about the fact there's also stuff we don't know. No human's ever died and come back.
Starting point is 00:51:39 Instead of when challenged by that idea to say, oh yeah, maybe we should look at that. The response is rather to be aggressively dismissive and label him the heretic. There is a quote, and I really forget who said this, but it's not a new quote at all, but someone said, whenever human beings are unsure, we become doubly sure. And there's that sense in which the areas in our life that were most, that are most vulnerable, were the most like strident in the way we just, you know what I'm saying? So when I look at people holding a megaphone screaming their guts out about Rob
Starting point is 00:52:16 saying homeless can get into heaven, I just think, man, there's a lot of, there's actually a lot of pain in there. Like there's actually, I actually spent time, I remember just in the edit suite, just kind of like, you of like you look through things slowly and just looking at some of their faces and thinking. I have little kids at home. I don't think any of us come into the world with that kind of vitriol. I don't think any of us show up on the scene and have this impulse to. And the other thing that I think rob really offends people
Starting point is 00:52:45 on and i think the strongest reaction we've had so far to the film uh to the negative is that i think it's actually surprised me but most of it has to do with america and that's true of work i've done before too it's like when you touch america you touch something really deep and and when rob criticizes the fact that we've put the flag and the cross side by side to really horrendous consequence throughout human history especially recently in this country. That's strong for people. And I think what it is, and I think it's going back to what somebody said earlier, Rich, I think it's what's happening right now in America big time. It's happening so fast we can't even handle it, is that when you pull the cross away from the flag, you take off that thin veil of moral superiority or whatever it is
Starting point is 00:53:28 we had, and you're just left, you're left with very naked nationalism. You're left with a sense of like that we're in, they're out, we're right, they're wrong. Like think about that in a religious context. Yeah, without the ability to morally justify it in that way. Suddenly it just becomes really offensive. And I think no one wants to feel like they're wrong. And I mean, I think about that on any level. You know, I think about that with reactions people have that you probably experienced to like what people eat or what. Yeah, I mean, it's not quite as vociferous as religion.
Starting point is 00:53:57 I mean, there's nothing as sort of, you know, heightened as that. But yeah, you see it in the diet debate wars where, you know, the people that are the least informed are the ones that dig in the deepest and are the loudest. And there is that question. I mean, there is that question. And one of my primary sources of intrigue with Rob has been that question, as I said earlier, how do we wake up? Because we're in desperate need of human beings waking up on this planet. And why do some people experience something and move to a later stage of consciousness? And why do other people not?
Starting point is 00:54:31 And I don't know the answer to that. I really don't know the answer to that. So, you see certain people that I watch certain people engage with Rob's work and to some people, it's very life affirming and it's very, it opens them up. It moves them forward to a place of, and to other people, that's just really, really offensive stuff. And to me, that is the great question. If you're a person of faith of any kind, I think the great question right now in front of all of us, even if you're not in religion, the great question is, how in 2018, as a person, How in 2018, as a person, can you be like someone who holds belief that moves them towards really hope-filled action and yet be open to when new information contradicts that belief?
Starting point is 00:55:22 I mean, I think about that with climate change a lot because I think a lot on the environmental spectrum. I think about the people that deny that. And I just think about from a business standpoint, like, whenever you've backed your life into a corner, like you said earlier, like, it's not like we've arrived. But there's a lot of us who were kind of given that view of the world. Like, I was sort of raised like that. Like, here's human history, like, do-do-do-do-do, and then now we're here, and we did it. We can close the book right right right so like is is your faith is your religion is your tradition is your lack of religion something that opens you up to the possibility that 10 years from now i might be sitting down here with you rich and i might have i might be able to look back and be like man i made so much i didn't know how
Starting point is 00:56:03 was i still doing well i would hope that you would say that. If you do have fidelity to that idea, then you should be saying that at that time, right? So yeah, I think it goes back to awe and wonder. If you can live in that place of awe and wonder, then you're open to change and possibility, and you're not hardened by your dogmatic belief about X, Y, and Z. And it requires a certain humility to do that. It's very threatening for a lot of people. So when Andrew says, Rob, when Andrew says, you know, I don't know why some people can be provoked and you as a, you know, sort of quote unquote, you've been called a provocateur, you know, to sort of provoke people to think a little bit more broadly or out of the box about some of these ideas. What do you think the difference is
Starting point is 00:56:50 between somebody who can hear that and go back and recalibrate versus the person who digs in? Right, right. Well, this is the thing that happened in the modern world is you had the birth of the machine. And the machine was built on causality a plus b equals c so if you're going to build a flat screen tv or an airport you're going to take apart creation to understand how it works and you're going to put it back together in particular arrangements but that's built on you need to know that these atoms are going to do this there's a predictability and a probability there and so for many people and then you think about newton's principia and mechanical laws of physics, the universe operates according to some rules. Apples fall from trees at a pretty
Starting point is 00:57:31 consistent speed. So we were like seeped in this view of the universe, that there are these laws and predictabilities that undergird everything. And the problem is, for many people in the modern world, that thinking spilled over into matters of soul and spirit. So for many people, when you get into the infinite, the divine, that which you can't access with your five senses, but it's more real, love, grace, forgiveness, loss, that which you can't access with the assumption for many people is well it must work that way as well well this idea that that science and faith are mutually exclusive and that we've transcended these these sort of antiquated ideas of faith for this newtonian
Starting point is 00:58:18 you know idea of right how the world really functions right and you know a couple observations about that i mean i think I heard you say one time, that's all fine and good until that hardened Newtonian physicist or whoever holds their baby for the first time. And that sense of awe and wonder and possibility and impossibility kind of enters that person's awareness in a new and different way. Right, right.
Starting point is 00:58:47 And beyond that, this idea, I just lost my train of thought, but it had something to do with, I'll get it back in a second. It was so eloquent too. It was amazing. Yeah. The future. Well, this idea of reconciling, reconciling like science and faith, right?
Starting point is 00:59:07 And making room for that, which is beyond. Like, I don't see them as mutually exclusive. Like the more you learn about science, the more insane it is. Like the more possibility I see for something that exceeds our ability to comprehend. And the best scientists are the ones going, and then we learned this,
Starting point is 00:59:27 which raised all these new questions. Well, I think it's- Some of them we can answer and some of them we're like, we don't know. Yeah, we don't know. And that's the humility part. But I think with science comes that lack of humility, this sense that as human beings,
Starting point is 00:59:38 we're capable of figuring everything out and that we can understand it. It's only a matter of time before we can pin this down on paper and perhaps our brains are not evolved to be able to see what is maybe right in front of us had we had another lobe on our head or you know some other sense that we don't know what it is you know but but our hubris tells us that no that can't be the case right right so if you go back to what happened for a lot of people is the assumption was that human consciousness must work like everything else like show me where the buttons
Starting point is 01:00:10 the levers and the machinery is and then we'll get everybody farther along but you you uh you take two different people and you two people struggling with alcohol and you do an intervention with both of them in their living room and the one says thank you so much you guys love me this much and the other one says f you get out of my living room in very similar circumstances why do friends i've been both those guys by the way yes but think about your friends think about even in recovery why do certain people go i can't do this for one more day and somebody in very your other friend yeah i'm fine everything's fine denial avoidance uh it's the great mystery at the heart of the whole thing there are these great parables jesus tells like he tells one parable to his disciples it's almost like he's
Starting point is 01:00:58 talking to this crowd and he it's almost like he leans over to disciples okay here's the thing i'm gonna say some things that are true and some of of these people, they're going to wake up and see it. And some are going to want to kill me. It's as if I'm handing out, I'm passing out seeds. And some of this ground is really hard and rocky. And some of the ground is like fertile and the seed is going to take root. It's as if a number of Jesus stories are as if he's gone, I don't even understand how it works. I don't even understand why. I do know that we generally need pain to wake up or some experience
Starting point is 01:01:34 in which our current categories and labels are no longer sufficient. So the number of people, I mean, you think them how many people were taught something about let's we're taught that something ridiculous like all muslims are violent or something and then a muslim family moved in next door and they're like the best neighbors they've ever had all of those previous categories of organizing things fall apart in that moment and you either entrench dig in your heels and fight it or you let it break you and take you into new places and that's the endless invitation you think about post 9-11 the trauma of losing all these americans in this horrific attack and you essentially had
Starting point is 01:02:20 collectively almost two responses the one response, why do these people not like us? Why are we the target of this sort of terrorism? Why a trade center? Why a trade center? Which doesn't deny the evil atrocity of killing innocent, but just says, okay, what is the larger thing at play here? Is there something about us building military bases on other religions, holy sites that aggravates people? Have they been saying, could you please not build military bases on our holy sites?
Starting point is 01:02:50 And you have a whole series of new questions being asked about the role of this tribe in relation to other tribes. The other response to nine 11, if you could caricature, it would be these colors don't run crank up the Toby Keith. We're going to put a boot in your ass and you can see it collectively you can see it individually you can see it when a friend of yours loses someone they love and it's just ripped their heart out and some people become more open more tender
Starting point is 01:03:18 um that loss they become a friend to everybody who's lost somebody they love like they look them in the eyes and say me too and then we have other friends who lose somebody they love and they become bitter small they're still shaking their fists at the universe about why this happened um it's it's the great mystery um but what we can do and and the real invitation i would say now which we saw in the past election the real warning is not to let your enlightenment become an obstacle to the enlightenment of others what do you think what we happened is we've had this narrow brittle um judgmental left has emerged and but that one's even more insidious because it has an underbelly of arrogance
Starting point is 01:04:15 because it's not the right and i think which further further aggravates the right and entrenches it. Absolutely. Yeah. Absolutely. And, and resentment is just lethal to the whole thing. And I think a whole world of educated, intelligent, accomplished people sent a message from the left to the right of, we get it. We're going to make the future. And there's going to be driverless cars in no time. I know two half million people get their jobs from driving trucks,
Starting point is 01:04:47 but you'll be out of a job in no time. Just give us an Uber a moment, and we'll sort that out. And the real spiritual question hanging in the air is, can you listen to where that resentment comes from? And then I think the failure of the left i think is the thing like think about election night how many people on tv were like i didn't see this coming yeah i didn't see this coming and a guy in a tower not a metaphor you know what i mean with king louis the 14th but to me what's so interesting is he heard something,
Starting point is 01:05:27 and his wife said, if you run, you'll win. So he saw and heard something that the most educated, accomplished, in-the-know folks didn't hear. Oh, yeah. And that's interesting. He was a perfect tuning fork to tap into that world of people who feel hurt and unheard. Right. And to me, the great spiritual question is the absolute necessity of listening to how
Starting point is 01:05:57 does this system not work for you to such a degree that you would pull the pin on that option you know what i mean that's to me like the great spiritual challenge of our day is how does this system so leave so many people feeling out left out and whoever you are you have a vested interest in that because everything is intimately connected with everything else um and i think that's the really interesting thing that's happening now is you have all these people going, I think I missed something, which goes back to the humility. I think I missed something about the way this thing works. And that can only lead us in better directions. Using that tuning fork analogy, like you're a tuning fork for that division. Like the protesters show up
Starting point is 01:06:54 and then the people who are sort of vibrating on that frequency are the people that wanna hear you speak. And both crowds appear when you arrive and that's got to be you know one of the things in the movie you know knowing your story i didn't fully appreciate the the level of of courage it takes to kind of step into this message that you're putting out there, knowing that it is provocative and that for certain people indigestible, and yet understanding that it's your truth and doing it anyway at great personal risk to yourself.
Starting point is 01:07:37 Like when you told that story about what it was like when you left Mars Hill, because it's just what you felt like you had to do and started trying to reinvent how you were communicating with the world and seeing how a lot of people were not happy about that. And then less people were showing up to hear you talk. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Starting point is 01:07:59 But like sort of remaining true to that. Like that's a warrior's path. Yeah, it felt like a long soul evolution in the same direction. Like I just kept following it where it led. But yeah. So what was it, what was going on? Like take me to that moment.
Starting point is 01:08:16 Oh yeah, yeah. At Mars Hill where you realize like, I can't, this is not my path. Well, Kristen and I started a church when we were 28 and it got very, very, very big, and it was amazing. I got to see amazing things. I got to participate, and it was incredible. But I also had this growing sense that there's no way
Starting point is 01:08:34 when you have an institution that's that big that doesn't become about preserving and protecting that institute. Like, we've got to keep the church running. And my interest was not in keeping an institution running. It was creating a space where everybody from every background could access the spiritual depth of life so uh it was like oh i have to keep going and what i because i started touring i started doing like club theater tours in 2006 so i started touring like a bandwood tour like tour bus and doing like these one-man shows um and i that felt like home like talking about how everything is spiritual and the spiritual
Starting point is 01:09:13 depth of life in public spaces was like that's where you'd hear your favorite comedian your favorite band it was like this is where we should be talking about these things not over in the corner my interest wasn't in a particular group of religious people over here my interest has always been in what's it mean to be human yeah yeah you say sorry i don't mean to interrupt you but you kind of tell this story in the movie where you say you know you're you're a young person and you were a church and you had a very visceral realization at a young age. Like this is the stuff of life. Like whatever they're talking about up here,
Starting point is 01:09:48 like this is the most important, impactful, magical, mysterious, beautiful subject matter that a human being could ever entertain because it is about what it means to be human. And yet, why am I so uninspired? Right, right. Why is this so uninspiring? This should be the most inspiring thing ever.
Starting point is 01:10:10 Right, right, right. We as human beings, and especially like your listeners who say they're not religious, then don't show me your photos from Burning Man. Because you want meaning. You want depth. You want connection and coherence. Burning Man is a response to that year that yearning to the absolutely so we are fundamentally spiritual religious creatures we are desperate for meaning significance and
Starting point is 01:10:36 depth like that's the juice of the whole thing so I just didn't buy some of the categories from the get-go and when people say well that sounds kind of like you're talking about spirituality. Yeah, because you are too. Because we all are all the time. This thing is, what are you going to do with this gift? Where does it come from? What's it mean?
Starting point is 01:10:53 Where's it headed? What's it mean to be you? What's it mean to be me? So, yeah, I just had this, Kristen and I kept having this sense. Well, it happened very quickly. Kristen and I kept having this sense. Well, it happened very quickly. Oh, this chapter is over and I need to keep going and just keep doing what I'm doing and follow it where it leads.
Starting point is 01:11:17 And this chapter with a local church, that was a great chapter, but I have to keep going and take it farther. And talk about these things in spaces where somebody who would never go to church could stumble into this and be like, oh, thank you. Yeah, I needed this. This is helpful. So that's how it worked. But then what happened, I did a tour right after, right as I was leaving the church and I put out a book called Love Wins and that was fairly divisive. So I did a tour that fall. I was just saying, you just glossed right over that. so i did a tour that fall i just say oh you just gloss right over that um that tour like nobody should i mean there were there were cities where i would do like a 1500 seat venue and i'd you know it had been sold out the last time i came through and like 71 people would show up and i'd be in the green room getting ready to go out and the promoter would come back and be like yeah uh pretty empty house out there and you'd walk out and the promoter would come back and be like yeah uh
Starting point is 01:12:08 pretty empty house out there and you'd walk out and there's this cavernous room and there'd be like a couple people in the thing and i remember one guy saying yeah on your previous tours we'd put the tickets up and vans of church people would buy those tickets that would be sold out in no time and now they're none of those vans are coming pariah and all i knew i just knew apparently that particular subculture isn't listening but i knew there are millions and millions and millions of people who are more hungry than ever so it's like all you have is this deep abiding trust belief hope conviction that no, there are millions of people who want to talk about this stuff and that just keep going, just keep going. But that tour was, and I remember that tour because I couldn't afford a tour bus. And I remember like going
Starting point is 01:12:56 to the rental car place, it drives like eight hour drives every day. And I remember that like, I couldn't have, I was losing money. So this friend of mine who's like a large man, he was like with me. I remember we had to get like the cheapest rental car. So we're at a Ford Festiva. We're lost somewhere in Virginia. I'm driving along like, I'm moving to California. We're starting this new life. There are no guarantees.
Starting point is 01:13:27 All you know is you have this sense that you just have to keep going but you never question that sense no uh because i and in the film i joke about kristen and i talking about well you can always sell shoes yeah um a spinal tab reference i knew i'd rather maybe this maybe this all dries up and I'll go do something else but at least I'll have my integrity and still have my soul which I think honestly
Starting point is 01:13:53 is a huge part of what I was interested in the film is I think that a lot of us are we don't have enough examples of people who are on a path and stick with it and I think it has i think yeah it has cost something you know i think it's cost more than you even take take note of sometimes rather maybe that's like a gift that you but denial is my drug of choice but it's but it's kind of in mine too it's kind of incredible to witness and that's like there's the work itself that you're
Starting point is 01:14:19 doing but there's also like your life signifies something for people because i think a lot of people listening to a show like this i think they they are, there's a cost. If you're doing something purposeful and intentional in the world, you don't just drift there. You know, I mean, Rich, you're that way. Your story's lined with that. So, I'm fascinated by that from a story standpoint because that is the thing that good stories are made of and it's the thing that really interesting lives are made of. You know what I mean? So, it's cool to witness that because it's like rob can just kind of keep going in the face of all of it but it is you line up 10 other people and i don't think they all would have kept going but no it's it's very joseph campbell but like i'll be in uh i'm doing this tour all year
Starting point is 01:15:00 long the holy shift tour i'll be in uh next weekend is Sacramento, San Francisco, Santa Cruz. It's like a three-city run next week. I'll walk out and say thank you. I'm so glad you all are here. I'll mean it to the very depths of my bones. Like I have a gratitude. At the end of the night when I was just thanking the audience, you never know what it's like to show up at miles from home and you all were here i i mean that in a way i could never begin
Starting point is 01:15:30 to explain to the crowd it's such a wondrous no way i get to go out and do this again i think i'll give like this holy shift tour i'll give this talk like 50 times this year and i'm uh headed into the team i'm like at number night 10 or 11 now and i'm more humbled and thrilled to do it yeah how many talks a year do you give oh not that well i do like uh i do like like a sermon sort of thing for my podcast. Yeah. So that's probably, there's a bunch of those. Then there's a tour. There's a few of those.
Starting point is 01:16:11 Then I do these events where I talk for two days straight. I do eight hours a day for two days. So this is the thing that I'm getting at. And like, Andrew, I know you agree with me on this. I mean, Rob, you're a very gifted master communicator. this i mean rob you're you're a very gifted master communicator like you have an incredible acuity for connecting with audiences and individuals and and a facility for um i don't know tapping into something primal that connects people to whatever it is you're trying to say and it's it's powerful you know and i i don't i've see it there are certain other people that i see it in you're trying to say and it's it's powerful you know and i i don't i've see it there are
Starting point is 01:16:45 certain other people that i see it in you're certainly one of those people is this something you've always been able to do like you're so comfortable on stage you just you have such a command over what you're doing has it always been have you always had that or i mean obviously it gets better the more you do it i was in a band in college and I was the front man I'd never sung but I was like the front man it was like some version somewhere between Talking Heads and Red Hot Chili Peppers and Violent Femmes and Midnight Oil is that on the internet anywhere?
Starting point is 01:17:14 you know what apparently it is apparently it is well Andrew you had to dig up everything for the movie right? yeah apparently it is so writing songs and sharing them I I was like, oh. Because I was never that good at it. But when I did that, I was like, oh.
Starting point is 01:17:32 I don't know if I'm any good at this, but man, it feels like coming home. And then when I discovered the sermon and realized the sermon was an art form that had been hijacked. You say the word sermon and most people are like, and what's for lunch? I mean, I'm sure your listeners, the word sermon is like anything but a sermon. But then I would say, but hold on, Martin Luther King, I have a dream. That was a sermon. It was beautiful and dangerous and subversive and poetic. And it was economic and political.
Starting point is 01:18:00 It was about the heart. It was about our shared life together. And it was unsettling and healing and disturbing the comfortable and comforting the disturbed. And no one heard that sermon and went, I don't know, he was funnier last week. You know what I mean? So we sort of roll our eyes at the sermon and yet what you have heard some, you know of some sermons that were like events. They were guerrilla theater meets performance art.
Starting point is 01:18:22 So what happened in my early 20s is I stumbled into this art form and was like, I am gonna resurrect this art form for everybody. So that's what happened is- Well, you've really, you've claimed it and redefined it. You know what I mean? Like I listened to your podcast and I just, I'm like, first of all, I'm like, how does he just talk into the microphone
Starting point is 01:18:40 and like do this incredibly eloquent 45 minutes? Like, I don't know how that works, but beyond that, like, I don't think of it as a sermon. Right. This is just a very, these are like your insights, you know, on a whole variety of things. But then when you're like, yeah, that is a sermon, it's like, all right, well, what is a sermon?
Starting point is 01:18:55 Yeah, exactly. Like to take ownership of that and to like invert it and claim it as your own in this new expression, I think is unique. And I remember at the beginning when I started doing sermons, it's like, I either call this something different because of how many people just want to throw it up in their mouth at the thought of a sermon, or I double down on it. And I like by sheer force of will, just keep saying sermon until I force, until you're
Starting point is 01:19:20 forced to rethink it. You know what I mean? It's literally like you either shy away from it or you just go, no, they got it wrong. This is what a sermon is. Yeah, I really love it. I love it more than ever. I downloaded your program, Something to Say.
Starting point is 01:19:37 Oh, nice. Yeah, and I listened to it over the course of a couple long bike rides. That was eight hours. Yeah, I know. It was like two or three training rides. It was nine hours. That's a run. That's a running run for Rich. That was eight hours. Yeah, I know. It was like two or three bike, two or three training rides. It was nine hours. That's a run.
Starting point is 01:19:45 That's a running run for Rich. I was gonna say, it was seven hours and 45 minutes. That was like my run out before I turned and came back. But I was like, wow, you really break it down. Like, I was like,
Starting point is 01:19:56 how can he talk about this for eight hours? But I was like, oh my God. Like I have to listen to it again because I was just riding my bike. I was sort of, you know, it was percolating in my consciousness, but like, I actually want to take notes and write it down because it was a really powerful primer. I'm like, look, if you, if you want to express yourself, if you have an idea, like, let me give you a roadmap to put your best foot forward so that
Starting point is 01:20:17 you can create the best version of whatever it is you're trying to say. The basics of communicating. Yeah. Yeah. I wanted to create for everybody. Someone has a blog. Somebody just has to give a speech to their employees. Somebody has to give something motivational to the team. I wanted to create something for everybody who's got something they need to communicate to give them as many tools as possible.
Starting point is 01:20:38 But you would love I've been doing these events where people come and bring whatever they're working on i'm gonna do that and get them unstuck you would because i'm kind of stuck i'm kind of stuck we talked about this before i'm still a little stuck and you've extended yourself to like help me through that and i'm gonna tell we'll get you unstuck yeah i need that badly um so yeah it's like you know i think this this kind of dovetails into what Elizabeth has
Starting point is 01:21:06 to say about you. Like you guys are like, you know, you have this really cool kind of brother, sister relationship, but you're both creative powerhouses and it's about creative expression. It's about how do you communicate your ideas in a compelling way? She's Elizabeth Gilbert is unbelievable. And she and I were on this tour with Oprah Winfrey. I always say Oprah Winfrey in case people don't know. Not the other Oprah. Elizabeth and I started doing these Q&As
Starting point is 01:21:35 and where we would just go out into the parking lot and we would just sit on stools and take questions. And she brings, she would bring these like four paragraph answers that were just mind-blowing she and then later she put out a book called big magic yeah and i was like oh no wonder she was crushing the q and a she could without writing a book but so many of the things she was saying are in that book she's she is truly an extraordinary community i mean just what she has to say and how she says it i'm speechless so andrew when you're on the road with rob like when you you know how how did it differ from what you expected like what did you take away from
Starting point is 01:22:20 that experience that perhaps was different than what you imagined it would be? I don't think I imagined just how much, because you're right. I mean, like if we're being honest, like Rob has a very, very high ability in some of these areas, you know, and not everybody has that ability, maybe not even that capacity. And he's kind of like performing at the top of his game.
Starting point is 01:22:43 And I think what's fascinating is when I'm with him, he continues to have like that posture of a student and he's continually like fascinated by the whole thing. Like he's just learning how to do it. And he continues to, it's not just the like, I read three books before breakfast thing. It's also just the posture of like, isn't this interesting? Like, what am I learning in this moment?
Starting point is 01:23:06 Which is, I think I've been around people before who are communicating from a place of certainty and power. Anyone who's been in a church has seen that. And it's almost that thing that you alluded to of like, I figured it out and I want to let you know. Versus there's just this sense when you're around Rob and everyone that knows him says this, it's like this orbit because I told him one time, I was like, when I when i when i leave you when i spend time with you and i leave and i go back to my life i find myself loving my life more like it's somehow like everything's gotten like more vivid like something about like and i think that's just that just comes from the fact that he is a person who is immensely like all the stuff that he's talking about isn't from
Starting point is 01:23:48 a place of, like, I figured it out, now I'm going to let you know. It's like... Curiosity. Genuine curiosity. And also just a lack of cynicism. And a lack of fear. I mean, to be honest, like, you said that, Rich, about, like, you know, I think Rob can sort of, like, navigate around a lot of the critics and the
Starting point is 01:24:05 hate, but just doesn't make a decision from a place of fear. And like, that's a pretty cool thing. I mean, like when the election rolled around and he texted me and said, I'm going to go do a series of speaking events in the deep South called the Bible belt door.
Starting point is 01:24:15 It was like, Oh man, that seems ill advised, but good for the movie. Yeah. Let's go. By the way, but good for the movie yeah let's go yeah by the way i loved having andrew along because i loved being like do you see that what do you think about that like encountering what
Starting point is 01:24:33 would be an example of that here well i'll give you an example of that i'll give you some of that rob's doing a a um rob's really accessible a lot of these events and so afterwards in ohio yeah right this is ohio is that right is ohio a guy comes up rob's doing accessible a lot of these events and so afterwards in ohio yeah right this is ohio is that right is ohio a guy comes up rob's doing a book signing because this portion was like with the book the publishing company had sent him on this little book tour so in this bookstore this guy you know a lot of love people are giving him hugs appreciating him he's signing books taking pictures and this guy comes up and he like slams down this thing on the table and he's like i'm making a documentary about you he's waiting
Starting point is 01:25:06 in line i don't agree with you and i'm giving like it's almost like a subpoena he's like this is your one chance you've been served you've been served it had that vibe and and i opened it up but it's like what's amazing is like i know a lot of reactions to that and like rob laughed for like 30 minutes about that you can't make that stuff up it's this thing i think this is what it is there's an there's an amount there's a dose of joy and and and to be honest i mentioned this even at the premiere i think there was even a season there where um coming off the election and the dismantling of the epa and all these things that were really upsetting to me i almost i almost resented it for a minute Like there was almost this thing of like, it was almost like, Rob, it's more serious
Starting point is 01:25:49 than you think. Like there's real stuff. And I think what I experienced- Why do you think I'm in Ohio tonight? I think what I experienced was that sense of like, it's so serious. Like it's so heavy that it also is,'s that you talk about the the light heavy light that there's a light on the other side of heavy and i think that's the i think people wouldn't expect that amount of joy in the midst of articulating some of these ideas that are
Starting point is 01:26:17 not not always like yeah and i mean rob is that something that is that just part of your constitution or do you have to cultivate that sense of joy and levity and awe and wonder and curiosity and optimism? Or you're just baked that way? I'm probably baked that way. But what I kept noticing is the people who came in hot with a case to make, something within me, whether it's an evolutionary impulse, what's with the reptilian brain, something within me whether it's an evolutionary impulse what's with the reptilian brain something within me braces when i feel like somebody's coming in to show me i you know what i mean there's like a heaviness that they need to let me see how serious
Starting point is 01:26:55 uh there's something within me just braces myself and that i just noticed the people who it's like they were dancing it's like they were dancing. It's like they were hearing music that I couldn't hear yet. It was like an element of seduction. Actually, one of the turning points is I did an event with Bishop Tutu and Dalai Lama, and I was expecting it to be heavy. I was like, these two, this is going to be heavy. They just crack each other up. Bishop Tutu with Truth and Resc truth and reconciliation is this person went into this
Starting point is 01:27:26 village with a machete in 1994 and slaughtered everybody in this person's family, but them. Now the person's going back to the village to apologize for killing their whole family. And this person forgives them publicly. And there's documented evidence where they then become friends. So that's what he's doing.
Starting point is 01:27:40 Bishop Dalai Lama. When people are like, I got some haters on Facebook. Dalai Lama has some haters, China. You know what I mean? Like he has, he's been doing. Bishop Dalai Lama, when people are like, I got some haters on Facebook, Dalai Lama has some haters, China. You know what I mean? Like he has, he's been on the receiving end. So these people work at a, is there a higher or deeper level?
Starting point is 01:27:55 And they walk into the room from opposite sides of the room and they meet right in front of me and they hug each other and they start tickling each other and giggling and i was like what is protocol here like what is i actually in that moment i was like what do you do i literally just pulled out my phone and took a picture i have a picture uh-huh two feet away from the two of them who are hugging and then they did this cute they put us all on stage in a row and and a crowd could ask questions and they would say stuff like i remember bishop dalai lama turns to bishop to do and looks at him and says have you gained weight and then they would just die laughing and i was like, oh, because in the alternative wisdom tradition, there is the wisdom of the heaviness of life.
Starting point is 01:28:50 And we could all die tomorrow. We're barely hanging on. We're hanging on by a thread the whole thing. But if you actually enter all the way into that, the terror and fragility of life, you end up with, if you push through even farther what you arrive at is but we're here today so we might as well do something today yeah so what i noticed is how many people had got to the heavy the whole thing's falling apart the system is rigged against us let alone the epa let alone industrial farming and they park themselves there but if you keep going you get into this other space of i know it is you're right but we're here and we're breathing and we're walking around so let's
Starting point is 01:29:34 take a crack at some of this stuff let's see how many people we can get drinking water do let's see if we can make some difference and that person that person's now actually dangerous because they're coming and that's what i talk about it's almost a bullet but you become bulletproof you become weirdly bulletproof and i remember i remember doing an interview 2012 ish was npr and they started quoting one of my critics on the air and i remember for the first time they got done quoting that critic and instead of my usual well that guy's like instead of my lawyer like okay i'm gonna make my case i'm gonna do that i remember i just burst out laughing and i was like that's the critique i'll tell you what that
Starting point is 01:30:16 is that's a nerf bullet and i started critiquing the critique with joy like that's it come on come at me with something more diffuses the whole thing yeah it's all come on you can't make something even like it was just it became like play um and that's not to negate the seriousness it's just if you move into that space now you actually are in the space first off the ego has taken a proper backseat um And all the people I know who are actually, who actually are moving the needle in some way, they have like a, there's like, they've tapped into a, there's some punk rock in there. Like I know we're serving the system. Cool, huh? The people I know who are organizing themselves in some new political ways,
Starting point is 01:31:03 they're all in, they're also laughing the artists i know that the doctors i mean the people i'm sure you've seen that it draws you to them because in some senses they're hearing music and they're inviting you to dance with them and it's just a fundamentally different metaphor it's a different way of seeing it well there's a strength to that too yeah like it's a feeling of like there's a there's a strength to that too. Yeah. Like it's a feeling of like, there's a, there's a center of gravity. Yeah. That just feels like I'm past, like whatever that noise is over there. Like I'm cool.
Starting point is 01:31:30 I can be over here and laugh. Like it's not affecting me that way. Right. And you're not mocking anybody. It's not like you're not, but all the people, like think about all the people running small businesses who every week is a grind. Can they make payroll? Can they make, if you can move into,
Starting point is 01:31:47 hey, we made another week, check this out. And now you're really in the moment and now you actually have a shot at joy. And actually part of it came because I was trained as a pastor. So at early 20s, I got a job in a church. And one of the things that happens as a pastor is people call you when they're in a rough place. And right away, like 24, 25, I was doing funerals of people who died of AIDS when no one was talking about that.
Starting point is 01:32:16 Or people would call the church and say, I'm about to kill myself. Can I talk to a pastor? So all of a sudden my phone would ring and I'd pick it up and it'd be like, You're 24 years old, 25 years old. so all of a sudden my phone rang and I'd pick it up and it'd be like 24 years old, 25 years old I distinctly remember visiting a guy in prison when I was 25 who was in isolated lockdown because
Starting point is 01:32:30 he was violent and they led me in this little room they said the prisoner will be here in a moment and I was like to the guard I was like where are you gonna go and he's like well you'll be in here with the prisoner and then I'll I was like where are you gonna be and he's like I'll be out there and he starts to lock the door and I was like what happens if he tries to hurt me and the guy was like, where are you going to be? And he's like, I'll be out there. And he starts to lock the door. And I was like, what happens if he tries to hurt me?
Starting point is 01:32:46 And the guy was like, the guard says, I'll be able to watch it on my monitor. Oh, my God. So I would do, or I remember going to the ICU unit at the hospital and visiting these young families whose kid was in the plastic, clear plastic box. And then I'd go home to dinner with my family. And I would try to reconcile the suffering. Because when you're a pastor, like at the funeral, they invite you. You've never met some of these people. They invite you to the funeral home to help plan the funeral. And you sit down and realize all these people hate each other. And I'm supposed to somehow, in the midst of this death, make an experience that will somehow honor the person who died. And I would
Starting point is 01:33:21 go home to my family. It was an impossible situation after impossible situation then i go home to my young family for dinner and i couldn't reconcile the suffering i was seeing with the blessing and goodness of my own life and it like broke me the other way it was like oh the only way to do this is to move to some place of gratitude it's the only way i'll ever survive is just but i do have today and we are here and there is this thing unfolding so let's watch it and let's see what happens and let's witness to it. So some of this happened early on out of great disruption and trauma almost. Did you read the Book of Joy? It's by Doug Abrams. It's the story of Bishop Tutu and the Dalai Lama
Starting point is 01:34:17 like getting together for, I think it was the Dalai Lama's birthday. Did you read this book? I know what it is. I have not read it. Oh, I love it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And it's about their relationship and it's about not only how they're able
Starting point is 01:34:30 to maintain that perspective of gratitude and and levity in a world of suffering um but how you know we can all bring more of that into our own life and it's a little book it's easy to read or whatever but you should check it out i'm so glad somebody wrote a book on that because experiencing it up close i was like it literally for me was a transformative i am witnessing i think i'm witnessing like the actual the secret to the whole deal or the i think i'm seeing how it actually works yeah well the dynamic between them oh it's because they're like little boys absolutely like love each other deeply and it speaks to a larger you know sort of perspective of how they navigate the world yeah um i did a podcast that i did a podcast with doug too you
Starting point is 01:35:18 could listen to read the book but uh um to talk about it but yeah but it's cool yeah anyway um all right so andrew what um like what is your aspiration for the movie like not like in terms of how many people see it or whatever but like what do you what do you what is your hope that people take away from the experience of watching the movie yeah it's really interesting because i think when when i'm when i make something it's it's like it's very very because I think when I make something, it's very, very personal to me. And I think part of why you saw me kind of emotional at the premiere is these things are very, they're inextricably linked, not just to a season of my life, but they always have at the core some question I genuinely don't know the answer
Starting point is 01:35:59 to when I come in. You know, it's not just that I don't know uh is this going to fit together into a movie it's that i don't know the answer like i'm looking for something and um so for each i can look back on each of the things i've made and that's that's been true and so for me i have this kind of profoundly life-changing experience making this film and it opens me up. It gives me keys to unlock doors that had been locked several years ago. And it, you know, I'm just at the beginning of figuring all this out, but it's inspiring on a very deep, deep level to me. And so you have that experience. And then this week the film gets released and it gets to go out there. And I think in some ways you want it to do for other people what it did for you. Like, I want people to have the experience of having a two and a half,
Starting point is 01:36:50 three-year conversation with Rob. And I think the benefit of that is I want people to feel less alone. I think there's millions and millions and millions of people in this country and around the world that were handed something very reductive in the form of religion oftentimes. I think it did damage to their personal psyche. I think it strapped them down with guilt and fear and shame that they're still carrying. And that they were made to believe if they challenged that, if they moved away from that, they were betraying something or there was something broken about them. That's what I actually, I think it goes that deep. There's guilt and shame that comes into that. Yeah. So, I think for me, a story like this is you're not alone. You're not crazy. The thing you've rejected, you're rejecting for a reason because it's been bastardized and it's,
Starting point is 01:37:34 it's a horrible cheap knockoff. It's like in the dollar store. It's the little figurine. It's not the real statue. So, number one, just know that. Know that. Know that. And then number two, perhaps you could open yourself up to leaning in and getting some of the insight that some of these traditions have brought us without taking the whole thing. You know, like when I was growing up, it was like you were given the whole package and it was like, take or leave everything. Sign on the dotted line. Yeah. There's no a la carte. No. Right. No, there's nothing. This is how you're going to vote. This is how you feel about this issue. Because, and I mean, that's like, that's, that's on a personal level, what I hope people experience. But I also think
Starting point is 01:38:18 on a, on a very collective level, I think what you were just talking about, Robin, what you're articulating, Rich, is that sense of not only do we desperately need people to wake up, we need people who are going to be awake and alive and available for the long haul. And I think I've even experienced that in my life where it's like, I've had that very youthful, you know, I see an injustice or I go experience something that really rattles me. And it's like, you're just swinging wildly at it, you know, you're just swinging. And it's just, and it's from a very beautiful place. But I think when I look at someone like Rob, honestly, when I look at someone like you, Rich, I think like, I'm trying to set up my life in a way and my family in a way so that I can be someone that makes things that are helpful
Starting point is 01:39:01 for a long time, that I can have these experiences and they can share them. And I want to be doing that when I'm 80. And I think that there are certain tools, insights, words, poems, prayers inside of this big amalgamated thing we've called religion that offer help to do that. Yeah, what I hear in that is this sense of, or I guess what I want to say is, the path to truly redressing what ails us doesn't necessarily come in the form of a fly swatter to say, Scott Pruitt needs to step down as head of the EPA. What we really need if we want to truly solve these problems for the long term is to raise consciousness fundamentally, right? We need to raise the bar on our awareness, our connection with who we are fundamentally as human beings and what that means, right? Spiritually, emotionally, physically, and ethereally, really, right?
Starting point is 01:40:13 That is the solution. And it's amorphous and it's confusing and sort of unclear and at odds with kind of the forces of where our culture is right now in this moment. But ultimately, that's the path forward. Well, and that's like, I think that's beautiful. And that's like, I think for me, the realization that I'm thinking a lot about right now is sort of stepping back and realizing, like, we have to get really honest about the fact that all of the stories that we were given to explain the world around us were not created equally. And some were funded for certain reasons.
Starting point is 01:40:49 Some were designed for certain reasons. And a lot of the fallout comes when we like have leaned into a story thinking, like the story of American consumerism that you mentioned wasn't designed with our well-being at heart. It wasn't designed with the good of the planet at heart. It was designed to make more profit for these types of, you know. So, I think like backing up from some of these stories that we've lived inside of and sort of saying in a whole new way, how do we write a story for the future that is based on what we now know we need globally and what we know leads to, you know, human well-being personally? That is, know leads to, you know, human well-being personally, that is, that's wildly different than the suicide machine that we're living in, especially in this context in this country right
Starting point is 01:41:31 now. It's not working. It's hurting us. Like, it would be one thing if we were ravaging the planet and dominating entire groups of people, and we were like the happiest people on the planet. But I think, you know, you mentioned the school shooting. I think what like gets to me every time there's that like check on like how unwell, like how deeply unwell we are is the sense of that is, that's coming at the cost of, you have those two parallel things, our own personal unhappiness as well as our own personal sorrow, as well as globally speaking. So, yeah, I think we need new tools.
Starting point is 01:42:13 I think we need, and we need to look in new places. I just, I keep, I remember after the election, the editor of the New York Times, he said, what did you learn covering this whole process? And he said, we didn't take religion seriously and we're going to hire more religion writers. And it's not because he was saying like religion's done all this good stuff for America is I think he was saying these stories, whether you like them or not, whether you believe in them or not, whether you think they're helpful or harmful, they have played a central role. It's the driving heartbeat. It's the driving heartbeat. And so I think for me, it's like, I hope people can look at a film
Starting point is 01:42:43 like this and say, okay, we need to take seriously what this story has brought about. We need to take seriously where we now find ourselves as a result. And we need to pull out the good without sacrificing it to a small minority that's but to use the analogy or the metaphor that kind of interlineates the movie, it's more like surfing, right? Which is how the movie ends, spoiler alert, right? This idea that you have to ride with the sort of currents of culture and delicately coast it in order to you know plant those seeds of renewal yeah yeah and consciousness rises step by step by step and the patience to understand that when people are at a certain place, you don't skip steps. So even for a lot of people realizing maybe there's a larger,
Starting point is 01:43:48 I've always voted Republican, maybe I shouldn't. That's actually a giant step forward. Or I should probably eat less meat. Giant step for some people. And the maturity to know you affirm movement wherever you see it. You may be way down the road, but anybody, anywhere, any tiny little bit of movement, you celebrate it. As opposed to the arrogance of, well, if you were just caught up to me,
Starting point is 01:44:14 then you'd be okay. Well, so many well-intentioned movements just hamstring themselves for their inability to fan the tiny flames of forward progress because it's not ideal or perfect. Right, right, right. As opposed to it's all happening on a continuum and you cheer on anybody taking any steps. Which is the danger when you don't recognize what the story was, you repeat it. So like I remember having that experience, Rich, when I started into the plant-based world and getting into some of the vegan culture. And I'd have these moments where I was like, oh, no, this reminds me of fundamental Christianity.
Starting point is 01:44:52 It's very similar. It's very similar. Oh, but you're doing that, so you're not this, you know, or you're doing it wrong. Yeah, we're just trading stories rather than stepping back and saying, wait a second, that I'm right, you're wrong. This is my tribe. They're not my tribe. It's not serving us. It's not serving us.
Starting point is 01:45:09 It's not. You know? All right. How long have we been going for? Oh, we've been going for a while. I have to ask you. Rob. Rob Bell.
Starting point is 01:45:20 You're looking at your notes. Rob Bell. No, I've closed my eyes. I haven't looked at these at all. That's like my security blanket in case I have that brain fart and I can't think of anything. How does it feel to have a movie out there called The Heretic? I've always chafed at the word simply because I love my work i love making things and the idea that somebody
Starting point is 01:45:50 somewhere doesn't like it it's like i don't okay it's just always been like it's not interesting to me um and i was like no i've sort of fought against it i sort of laughed that people would use that word because when somebody uses that word my first thought is oh you just aren't familiar enough with your own tradition because nothing i'm saying is new um and actually andrew calling the movie the heretic it's like weirdly you've had to sort of make peace with it you're forced to wrestle with that firmly in eminem in the last scene in eight mile when he takes it all it just owns it um and well if i it's it's when he first called i was like oh i don't like that word and then i thought man that is a badass thing to call the movie yeah Yeah, but also, who is the real heretic here? What is heretical?
Starting point is 01:46:49 Yeah, and I think when I realized what he was doing there, he was like, people call, well, how did it happen? You told somebody you were calling here? Well, it's definitely clickbaity. Listen to this story. That's how I do everything. I think what's clickbaity? Yes.
Starting point is 01:47:04 You were at lunch or something i was at lunch with i was back in atlanta where i grew up and i was with someone and they were very um it's a very conservative religious little thing and um someone asked what i was working on and i told her that i was making this film about rob bell and she like put her fork down she was like you know he's a heretic and in that moment i was like thank you that's the name of the movie. Did you know I said that was the name of the movie? I absolutely knew right away.
Starting point is 01:47:27 How do you respond to that? I've never responded. I've just said, yeah, I just said, okay, I'm going to make a movie about it. I mean, it's like, yeah. To me, it's actually a powerful word because it's historically loaded. History hasn't always,
Starting point is 01:47:45 it's interesting if you really parse through where those people typically sort out now retroactively. And I just never have understood why we value innovation and change and forward progress in so many categories. And yet when it comes to our deeply most sacred held beliefs, we don't let them evolve with what we now know about the world and what we you know what i'm saying like so to me it was just kind of like insanity like when i was getting to know rob and like following the work i was like the fact that that's the thing that's being like wouldn't it be insane not to question this stuff like i don't i don't understand like um yeah the same is true with all this stuff the same is true of a america the same is true it's
Starting point is 01:48:24 like a very small group of people kind of claim the moral high ground, and they come to define, like the center of gravity, as you mentioned, gets to define what it is. Yeah, it's unassailable. So, then anyone coming up that hill, and you do, I mean, whether it's people eating differently, whether it's people, you are then labeled as the un-this or the anti-that or unpatriotic or un-Christian or a heretic or whatever. And I think that whole metaphor is broken. And I actually think that reveals itself to be something, I actually think there's a key in there. I really do think there's a key in there. Because if you really look at that thinking closely, it's just so dangerous
Starting point is 01:48:59 and so flawed. And history is strewn with examples of when we've just done group think and we've unquestioned and power has just i mean like we don't have to look that far back yeah no no no not at all i would also say one thing about the title one more thing it's humbling because you have to make peace with how people will respond to you and your work in the world. And the ego wants to control the narrative the whole way. But all you can do is do your work in the world and then it will be understood, it will be misunderstood, maybe appreciated, it may be slandered. There's this deep piece you have to make
Starting point is 01:49:48 that you either stay on the couch and you just become one more part passive observer doing comments on youtube you know what i mean yeah or you get in the game and you get skin in the game and you get a little bloody and you do your work and you you align your life around being a being a participant not an observer and if you make that shift if you cross over into that then there's a good chance some of what you do will be misunderstood or you may get get rocks thrown at you or well yeah i mean the trope is anybody who's ever done anything yes exactly it's controversial it's like you can't have exactly the other and and um if you can make peace with that on the front end then now you have a shot at joy but if you're constantly letting that determine your joy, it'll always be an elusive thing.
Starting point is 01:50:45 Non-attachment. Right. Andrew, I asked you, what is your aspiration for audiences? What kind of experience do you want them to have with this movie? On some level, you have an intention and a point of view, but you have to detach from that experience because they're going to have their own experience. And that's going to be what what it's gonna be, right? And there's something beautiful about that, but there's also something that provokes that like sense of wanting to control the story, right?
Starting point is 01:51:12 Totally, totally. Well, I think about as you're saying, like how you wanna control the whole story, which is, I laugh you saying that and then you let someone make a documentary about your life without any creative control. No creative control. But also it would have been weird
Starting point is 01:51:26 if you were like okay we'll do this but I get to like you know craft it yeah but that's how I Rob Bell want to do like then it would be like
Starting point is 01:51:33 so many people do it like that yeah but it would be like oh this is just a terrible yeah this is being driven by the ego it can't be that way right
Starting point is 01:51:39 right it has it's much this is a much better story yeah cool all right well we gotta wrap it up. Thank you. Thank you.
Starting point is 01:51:48 Thank you for having us. I love both of you guys. I love you too, man. I love your work. I love you too, man, and I love coming to your house. Thank you. I love seeing you. Love the movie.
Starting point is 01:51:55 You did an amazing job. It's a courageous work. And I was honored to be at the premiere to experience it with an audience for the first time. And I won't lie, craned my neck a few times to see how Rob was doing. Like, yes, you're a pretty good poker face throughout, but I really enjoyed it.
Starting point is 01:52:15 And I can't wait for the world to embrace what you guys work so hard to create. I wish you well. And I wanna know what's next. What are you doing, Andrew? You got a new movie you're working on? Are you going to be predictably tight-lipped? Yeah, I am, but only because I don't know. I sort of have this thing where these things work sort of one at a time for me. And I, I think we're finishing this now and then the next thing will, will open up.
Starting point is 01:52:45 I stressed out for a long time about that. I have a lot of friends who can make like seven things at one time and they're so productive. For some reason, it just works in this way. And I remember it was right about this time where we had finished The True Cost and Rob and I met and started talking.
Starting point is 01:52:57 So I'm open. Right now I'm kind of like excited because there's something new that always comes up right now. So I'm not telling you not because there is something and no but you you're not actively like i need my next project like you're somebody who waits for the inspiration these things are too long and too difficult to only kind of be interested i like for me as a person i uh i don't know i just have my my one way of
Starting point is 01:53:22 doing it it's just kind of like heart soul body i i just like viscerally have to be chasing after something and that um yeah i i trust that that will happen again i love this i love doing this i like i i it is intoxicatingly fun to make this and i'm thinking even as we're having this conversation it's just making me realize like what a what a gift it is so every time we to do it, it's just kind of like, whoa, we got to do that again. That's super cool. What about you, Rob?
Starting point is 01:53:50 You're touring? Yeah, touring. I think we're about to announce another couple legs, so probably through the end of the year. So probably coming to a city near you, good listener. And then there's always a new teaching for the Robcast. Those come out on mondays my podcast and then other stuff that i like yeah getting very excited about but i don't like to
Starting point is 01:54:12 let it out till it's ready yeah i like to spring it up well you always say like if somebody says well what do you do you're like i make things yeah you're in your little stuff back house making yeah there's some good stuff brewing right now it's fun cool um all right so the movie is available on amazon and itunes worldwide worldwide mostly we're working towards worldwide it's a lot of places yeah there's like a few countries that keep emailing but we're working on right all right should be should be easy to find for most people out there and if you want to learn more about rob rob bell.com all his dates and all his good stuff uh all his cool you can download something to say you're on the radio head model right like yeah oh yeah something to say right pay what you want pay whatever you want and uh until next time
Starting point is 01:54:56 gentlemen yes thank you should we go eat some food oh my goodness most most Rob, will you take us out the way that you end the Robcast? Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. My brothers, my rich roll brothers and sisters, may grace and peace be with you every step of the way. I love it. Peace and flats. All right, we did it. This is the conclusion.
Starting point is 01:55:29 I spoke, Andrew spoke, Rob spoke, and it was good, right? Am I right? I hope you guys enjoyed that. Again, please make a point of checking out The Heretic on iTunes or Amazon and hit these guys up on Instagram and let them know
Starting point is 01:55:40 what you thought of the movie and this conversation. You can find Rob at RealRobBell and Andrew is at Andrew underscore Morgan. One more time, the Plant Power Away Italia is currently available for pre-order. Reserve your copy today.
Starting point is 01:55:56 And if you are a female, make sure to visit the episode page for this episode for a chance to win a free spot on our upcoming retreat to Tuscany, May 19th through 26th, 2018. A $5,000 value. The contest is only open through May 24th. So jump on it now.
Starting point is 01:56:13 And if you would like to support my work, please subscribe to the show on Apple Podcasts or on whatever platform you enjoy this content. Subscribe to my YouTube channel, youtube.com forward slash richroll. We videoed this whole thing. It really helps with the show's visibility, extending reach, growing the audience, all of that good stuff, which in turn makes it easier for me to find the very best people
Starting point is 01:56:32 for future shows. You can also support my work on Patreon by going to richroll.com forward slash donate. If you need help with your diet and nutrition, check out our meal planner, thousands of custom tailored plant-based recipes, grocery lists, even grocery delivery in most US metropolitan areas. It's everything you need to eat the way you deserve for just $1.90 a week when you sign up for a year. So to learn more, go to meals.richroll.com or click on meal planner on the top menu at
Starting point is 01:57:01 richroll.com. I want to thank everybody who helped put on the show today, Jason Camiolo for audio engineering, for production, for interstitial music, Michael Gibson for videography and theme music as always by Annalima. Peace out, you guys. See you back here in a couple of days. Be well, be good. Love deep. Namaste. Thank you.

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