The Rich Roll Podcast - Roll On: Case Studies In Mental Fortitude

Episode Date: June 24, 2021

Success in all forms demands mental fortitude—a capacity honed through consistently placing yourself beyond comfortable confines. When practiced with daily rigor, an increasingly sturdy mindset becomes a superpower—and the foundation for the purpose-driven life you aspire to inhabit. Welcome to another edition of ‘Roll On’, wherein myself and master of pen, keyboard and dictaphone Adam Skolnick explore the concept of mental fortitude in contexts athletic and political through the lives of two individuals, James Lawrence (aka the ‘Iron Cowboy’) and Minneapolis Mayor Jacob Frey. Beyond RRP hype-man duties, Adam Skolnick is an activist and journalist best known as David Goggins’ Can’t Hurt Me, co-author. He writes about adventure sports, environmental issues, and civil rights for The New York Times, Outside, ESPN, BBC, and Men’s Health. He is the author of One Breath and is currently awash in his umpteenth draft of an untitled novel—slowly losing his mind in the process. This episode unfurls in a fashion unique. The balance of today’s discussion focuses on James Lawrence—the undisputed king of mental fortitude wrought in physical form—and his mind-bending completion of 101 iron-distance triathlons in 100 days. In addition, we cover a few notable stories, including The Woman Who Fell 2 Miles To Earth,  The Great Lakes Jumper and The Great Pacific Race. We also discuss the recent Supreme Court decision backing payments to NCAA student-athletes, wherein I go on a tear against the college-industrial complex. It is here that we depart from standard Roll On protocol and instead segue into my conversation with a man notable for a very different kind of mental fortitude, Minneapolis Mayor Jacob Frey. The most accomplished runner currently holding elected office (he’s a 2:16 marathoner!), it’s an exploration of the demands, discipline and disposition required to lead a fractured city through the treacherous terrain of social upheaval in the wake of George Floyd’s murder. FULL BLOG & SHOW NOTES: bit.ly/richroll610 YouTube: bit.ly/rollon610 Final Thought: this episode marks the one-year anniversary of ‘Roll On’ (and on-air bromance with Adam Skolnick). What started as an experimental but intentional response to the many historic moments that greeted us in 2020 has turned into an important RRP mainstay—and a success due in no small part to the incredible work that Adam has and continues to bring to the series. So thank you Adam. Show him some love on Instagram @adamskolnick. Enjoy the show! Peace + Plants, Rich

Hey everybody, what is up? My conscious collective, it is I, once again, Rich Roll, here after a brief respite, the nature of which we will soon elucidate, breaking organic gluten-free bread with my main squeeze, Brief respite, the nature of which we will soon elucidate. Breaking organic gluten-free bread with my main squeeze, Mr. Adam Skolnick, master of pen, scroll, and word. Here to deposit sound waves derived from ones and zeros

into your ear canal. For those who are new, typically we break down matters ranging from banal to consequential. We do a wee bit of show and tell. We share a few wins of the week and we round it all out by answering some of the questions dropped on our voicemail,

which you can ring up at 424-235-4626. Today, we're gonna do things a little bit differently. We're going to hone in and focus on one story, that story being that of the iron cowboy and his mind bending 100, not just 100, 101 consecutive iron distance, iron cowboy distance, as he likes to say, triathlons, which is a feat or a feat of, how do I describe this?

A feat of fitness prowess to which both of us, you and I Adam bore witness. We are gonna share a few wins and then we're gonna go to my interview with Minneapolis Mayor Jacob Frye, which was recorded during the final week of the George Floyd trial. So we're not gonna do listener questions this week.

But before we dive in, a quick word from the sponsors that make this fiasco possible. We're brought to you today by recovery.com. I've been in recovery for a long time. It's not hyperbolic to say that I owe everything good in my life to sobriety. And it all began with treatment, an experience that I had that quite literally saved my life. And in the many years since, I've in turn helped many suffering addicts and their loved ones find treatment. And with that, I know all too well just how confusing and how overwhelming and how challenging it can be to find the right place and the right level of care, especially because, unfortunately, not all treatment resources adhere to ethical practices. It's a real problem. A problem I'm now happy and proud to share has been solved by the people at recovery.com who created an online support portal designed to guide, to support, and empower you to find the ideal level of care tailored to your personal needs.

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I empathize with you. I really do. And they have treatment options for you. Life in recovery is wonderful, and recovery.com is your partner in starting that journey. When you or a loved one need help, go to recovery.com and take the first step towards recovery. To find the best treatment option for you or a loved one, again, go to recovery.com. We're brought to you today by recovery.com. I've been in recovery for a long time. It's not hyperbolic to say that I owe everything good in my life to sobriety. And it all began with treatment and experience that I had that quite literally saved

my life. And in the many years since, I've in turn helped many suffering addicts and their loved ones find treatment. And with that, I know all too well just how confusing and how overwhelming and how challenging it can be to find the right place and the right level of care, especially because unfortunately, not all treatment resources adhere to ethical practices. It's a real problem. A problem I'm now happy and proud to share has been solved by the people at recovery.com, who created an online support portal designed to guide, to support, and empower you to find the ideal level of care tailored to your personal needs. They've partnered with the best global behavioral health providers to cover the full spectrum of behavioral health

disorders, including substance use disorders, depression, anxiety, eating disorders, gambling addictions, and more. Navigating their site is simple. Search by insurance coverage, location, treatment type, you name it. Plus, you can read reviews from former patients to help you decide. Whether you're a busy exec, a parent of a struggling teen, or battling addiction yourself, I feel you. I empathize with you. I really do. And they have treatment options for you. And they have treatment options for you. Life in recovery is wonderful. And recovery.com is your partner in starting that journey. When you or a loved one need help, go to recovery.com and take the first step towards recovery. To find the best treatment option for you or a loved one, again, go to recovery.com. And we're back.

Adam, we have two things to celebrate today. The first of which is the fact that yesterday was your first, your very first Father's Day as a father. It was. How are you doing? I cannot deny it was a rite of passage, but I'm not festive, Rich. I'm not that guy. Why is that?

I'm not here to be festive because not that guy. Why is that? I'm not here to be festive because a day, a certain day comes up and they tell you it's that day. I also resist the social contract that mandates we celebrate holidays and other people on appointed dates on the calendar. Exactly, I don't need my wife to paint

an Instagram soliloquy of my greatness on a certain day, like these other mothers. As long as she's doing it on other randomly appointed days. Yeah, no, I expect it several times a week, just not on Father's Day. It's sort of like the bridge and tunnel crowd, right? It's amateur day. Oh, you're like amateur night. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, you know?

But that was a different era. That was the exclusiveness era, exclusivist. This is the inclusion era now. We're both having trouble with our vocabulary today in speaking. But no, but it was, you know, it was a rite of passage. It was the first one. I fed my child.

I bought paint for his new bedroom. I swim ran, but mostly I fixated on a 66 year old German scientist named Julian Diller. Tell me about her. She is the quote woman who fell to earth. Did you know about this story? Well, I didn't until it popped up in my Twitter feed and was set ablaze.

It was trending on Twitter the other day, this crazy story. Incredible, like there was a New York Times story about this, not the first time her story has been told. The headline was something like, this woman fell nearly two miles to the earth or something and survived. I like how the New York Times kind of uses artful click baity titles now to draw attention

to stories like this. Well, cause this is really an environmental science story, but it does have this life and death element. I mean, she's the sole survivor of the deadliest lightning strike disaster in aviation history. It's coming up on 50 years this Christmas. When she was 17 years old,

she was flying to the Panguana Research Station in the Amazon Basin of Peru, the oldest Amazonian research station in Peru. And so she lived there. Her parents were these zoologists that set up this station from Germany. And she lived there. They lived in Lima for a while. And then when she was 14, she got moved to the middle of the jungle and she was on the flight back with her mother. And all of a sudden, 20 minutes into this 50 minute flight, everything starts shaking. The luggage, the overhead compartments open up.

It's like the bad movie, like where everything's showering the people. This has really happened. And she looks out the window and the wing gets hit by lightning. She sees it. And then her mother turns to her and says, it's all over now.

Like in a really steady, like how German is that to be that cool under, like just total zoologist, it's all over now, honey. But what happens is she's in this bench of three seats in near the back of the plane and the plane breaks apart. And all of a sudden she, next thing you know, she's flying through the air, no plane. She says like the plane and the plane breaks apart. And all of a sudden she, next thing you know, she's flying through the air, no plane. She says like the plane left me, I didn't leave the plane.

And she starts, you know, she's just doing circles like a spinning leaf towards the jungle canopy. And it looks like she described it as looking like broccoli tops. And she passes out and she wakes up under that seat with a broken collarbone and a bad out and she wakes up under that seat with a broken collarbone and a bad cut and a torn skirt, but nothing else.

And she's got swollen eye. And then she's has to hike through the jungle for 11 days with just candy. And she finds water, follows the water and eventually finds a logging camp 11 days later. The craziest story. I just pulled it up on the screen here. 86 people on this flight, she's 17,

she's sitting next to her mom. And there's that amazing quote about how she didn't feel like she got ejected from the plane. The plane just sort of left her and everything sort of was quiet. And she's buckled into this seat, a three seat kind of sectional and blacks out and wakes up essentially pretty much fine,

broken collarbone. But the big thing was that she lost her glasses and she's terribly nearsighted. And then has to figure out how to, in the middle of the Amazon, figure out how to find civilization. Crazy. Amazon, figure out how to find civilization. Crazy. It takes 11 days and she's 17.

So 86 people, everybody dies except her. It's unbelievable. And she- How do you fall two miles? Two miles. I don't care how you went. 10,000 feet. There must be something about the blacking out part though. That has to have helped. Where you go limp and you don't have that,

you're not rigid. I mean- And she must've been the, I would think that the canopy caught her and so it slowed the fall and then hit like kind of a dense leaf, like leaf litter must be like the loam must be like so thick and soft earth that that must've helped.

I mean, she was, she started to make her way. I think she laid there for a day and until the search helicopter, the search planes, she couldn't hear them anymore. She thought they weren't gonna come for her. And then she looked or like, as she walked away, she'd see some of her fellow passengers, like, you know, dead in the ground.

And she was searching like women's footwear to see if it's her mother. Her mother never painted her toenails. I mean, she was doing that. And as she was walking like women's footwear to see if it's her mother. Her mother never painted her toenails. I mean, she was doing that. And as she was walking, she realized, I haven't done anything with my life. If I survive this, I'm gonna do some good. Here's this photo of her revisiting the crash site in 1998

with Werner Herzog. Werner. Which is so awesome. It's awesome because you just talked about Werner. Did you hear that story that Van told about meeting Werner Herzog? I haven't gotten to that part yet. Oh, it's great.

Yeah, it tells a great story. Yeah, it's an unbelievable story, this woman. And then goes on to be this legendary biologist committed to this particular part of the world. Yeah, and it's become this preserve with 500 species of trees, 160 types of reptiles and amphibians, a hundred types of fish, seven varieties of monkey, 380 bird species.

There's hundreds of insect species. There's more bat species in their preserve than all of Europe. I mean, it's incredible. And the story goes on to basically say that we are at 16, 17% of the Amazon has been eradicated. And if you get to 20%, you get to a point of no return,

she's saying as a scientist and that, but until that point, if we can preserve more of it, we're in good shape. But already she says the average temperature has gone up four degrees since when she was a kid. Why is this article being written now? The 50, I think the peg was a 50 years ago, this Christmas is the anniversary of this crash

and it's this big aviation disaster. I thought the crash was Christmas Eve. Yeah, it's Christmas Eve, I don't know why, you know, but it makes me wanna read her book. Well, this is a good way to kick this off. We started with an interesting story right out of the gate. All I said was, Adam, how you doing? Well, it's our one year anniversary.

I wanna bring the noise. Speaking of anniversaries, so we're celebrating this woman surviving this crash. It is also the one year anniversary of us sitting together and doing this thing. I know. How do you feel about that? It's been a lot easier than those 11 days, I think.

But I feel great. I mean, I'm happy to be here. I think as we get into the Iron Cowboy stuff, I think I've reached another level of understanding of the power of the Rich Roll podcast and I am pleased to be here. It's been an amazing iteration and evolution of the show. It's been an absolute joy to do this with you.

Thanks man. I've really enjoyed it. The audience definitely loves it. We're gonna talk a little bit about that in a minute when we talk about the iron cowboy. The funny thing is despite all the kind of heavy stuff that we cover and how intellectual we try to be about all these stories, the primary focus seems to be on this relationship

that we have and the threat that Brogan Graham poses to that and how are we working out this social dynamic? I still get Brogan comments sometimes. I know, it's unbelievable. I know, well, it's a powerful, Brogan is a powerful man. The human mind works. But that's good.

How are you, Rich? Enough about me. I'm doing okay. Speaking of Father's Day, I celebrated Father's Day with my wife, 6,000 miles away and she's in Europe right now. Mathis, one of my daughters was in Santa Barbara. Jaya wanted to know if Jaya could go see a friend.

So you can't complain about socially mandated holidays and how you have a resistance to them if you're not gonna reap the results of being on what it feels like to be on the receiving end with like-minded individuals. When you lobby for that your whole life. No, it was nice. Like the boys made dinner with Jaya and we watched a movie last night, but it was pretty chill.

I did, I was supposed to be, all of this happened because originally I was supposed to be in Sun Valley doing this Everesting event, the 29, 0, 29 event. So everybody made separate plans because I wasn't even meant to be in town to begin with. Were you gonna actually do the event? Yeah, I was gonna do it. I mean, I did it in Utah.

It must've been two years ago, a year and a half ago at this point. I was really looking forward to it, but there was with Julie being in Europe, there was too much going on with the kids. Mathis produced a pop-up event for 30 vendors in Hollywood. All these high school kids who designed garments and jewelry and all kinds of cool stuff.

It was like a frat party for artistic Hollywood kids at this warehouse, but it was pretty cool. Like she's an entrepreneur, man. She put this whole thing together with a friend and it was pretty cool. Like she's an entrepreneur, man. She put this whole thing together with a friend and it was pretty cool to see. I wonder where she gets it from. So I wanted to be able to attend that. And also Jaya just started a new school.

I couldn't not be here for that. And there's some other things going on. So just, it was the right decision to opt out of doing what I like doing, which is being outdoors and doing hard things, but family first, my friend. So yeah, it was pretty uneventful. Things are opening up here in California pretty rapidly. I'm anxious to get back in the pool.

I haven't gone online and checked to see what the pools in my area are doing right now, but I suspect if they're not already fully open, they're going to be soon. And I'm looking forward to that happening. Yeah, well that would, cause you've had some back issues. Does swimming help with that?

It helps and it doesn't aggravate it. It's such a gentle way of working out in terms of your joints and all of that. So it was swimming pool warm in the ocean. I mean, at the surface, it was like- What's the temp right now? It was 68 degrees at Westward. Like I was getting 68 on my watch after some dives.

It was about 63 at the bottom. Maybe it like from 20 foot on, it was probably like 63, 62, 68 at the surface. So if you're just swimming, I mean, it's gorgeous. I was lucky enough, April basically carved out some beach time for us and hooked up a nice brunch on Sunday. So shout out to the lovely wife. Cool, man. Yeah.

We had a good time. Let's dive into the big story. Let's do it. That we're gonna focus on today. The recap of the Iron Cowboy Conquer 101. Yes. So as many of you guys know by now, especially if you follow the show or you follow me on Instagram,

on June 8th, James Lawrence, AKA the Iron Cowboy achieved something I personally, honestly did not think possible by completing a hundred consecutive iron distance triathlons for people who are listening or watching who don't know what that is. It's a 2.4 mile swim followed by 112 miles on the bike

celebrated with a marathon 26.2 miles all in one day. He did a hundred of these in a row walking out the front door of his house, making a short jaunt down the street in his neighborhood in Linden, Utah to a local pool that he essentially rented. Beautiful Linden, Utah. Yes. We're gonna talk about Linden.

It's like Calabasas set against the Rocky Mountains. I don't know about that. No? It's a little bit different. It's a unique place. Yes. But he kind of did this all in his general area. It's a flat terrain, as long as you don't go up in the mountains

and essentially went out his front door and did this every single day, not missing, this is the important part, did not miss a single day. There was no days off. No days off. And then he celebrated this insane accomplishment by waking up the next day after doing 100

and doing it again. So the Conquer 100 is actually the Conquer 101. So I wanna talk about our reflections on all of this, as well as our impressions of actually being present and bearing witness to this. You went a couple of times. We each were there. Yeah, it's been a while since we've done a roll on.

So I showed up on day 91 and just backtracking a little bit when James did his 50 iron distance triathlons in 50 states in 50 days, I showed up on the final day and ran the final marathon with him. It was such an amazing experience. I did a podcast with him before he set off on that experience. I did a podcast with him before he set off on that experience. I did one afterwards.

I made a vlog about being there on that final day. And I wasn't gonna let this experience eclipse my attention. I wasn't sure I was gonna be able to make it on the final day, because Jaya's birthday was the day after that. And there was a bunch of stuff going on at home. So I had this window of opportunity to show up for day 91. I wanted to jump on it in the event

that I would not make it there for the final day. So I was there on day 91. I walked, it's kind of like a power walk. Like he was walking these marathons for a large chunk of them. Yes. But walking doesn't really tell the tale because he's moving pretty quickly.

Like you, it's easy to fall off the back if you're just walking, like you have to- You have to jog to catch up if you do. Yeah, you would have to jog to catch up. Like he's really figured out how to move it, you know, pretty quickly while walking and got to spend a little bit of time with him. And one of the cool things about doing a day

other than the final day is that there's less people, you get some face time. I surprised him. I was able to have some cool conversations with him, take his temperature on how he was feeling, spend a little bit of time talking to his friends, his wing men, some of the people that have flown in from all over to get a little piece of this for themselves,

which we're gonna talk about and spend some time with his kids, Lucy in particular. And it was amazing, I loved it. And then I was able to figure it out to go back there for the final day and we were both present for that experience. Yeah, man, that was incredible. I mean, I'm so glad that you were there for that.

I mean, for me, I got interested in this, but I didn't even know until it had started when you started to bring it up on roll-ons. I didn't know who James was. I hadn't heard of his first record, the 50, and then got interested. And so I went out there for the New York Times Sports in that capacity, which was the first,

my first on the ground field assignment since COVID, my first flight and my first flight was delayed three and a half hours. So that was pretty fun. It took you a while to get there, right? Yeah, but then I checked into a nice little hotel on the side of the 15 next to a guns and ammo superstore. Yeah, there's no shortage of gun shops

and shooting ranges in this part of the world. It was the glamor of the road hit me right away, but it was, I got there just in time to get to the finish of day 98. I literally drove in 45 minutes before they finished in the park. And it's in, Linden is kind of like a new build town that used to probably be kind of a hay farm area

and where they ride is to the existing hay farms now. And it's kind of between Provo and Salt Lake, which is Salt Lake being a budding tech center now. It's like, it's coming. It's on the come up in there, right in that corridor. And there's a lot of cyclists, a lot of athletes in that area because of altitude and just, it's a nice place to live.

There's a lot of sunshine. And so that was cool. I love Utah. I mean, Utah is one of the most beautiful states we have and I've always loved it. So it was fun to go there. Day 99, woke up at five to get to the swim. And my plan was to swim with them, which I did do.

And so I, but I didn't expect the pool to be so packed. Like when I originally organized to go out there and I was talking with Lucy, I said, would I be able to swim? She said, yes, any day but the last day. And I said, because the last day is already fully booked out. I thought, okay, so they're keeping track of who's swimming.

When I got there, the pool was like five to a lane. And so, but I got in anyway and I did most of the 2.4, but it was like a Forrest Gump experience. Like he swims a hundred and he wants to swim on, he starts the next hundred on the two minutes. Right, he basically does 41 hundreds on the two minutes every So he does 40, he basically does 4,100 on the two minutes every day. And he would stop and take a sip. So whenever he stops though, the entire pool goes dormant.

Maybe a couple stragglers in the- That's the Piper effect. Total Forrest Gump, like he stops, they stop. He goes, they go. And- Hold on a second though. Please tell me you didn't wear your snorkeling mask situation for this swim. Rich Roll, you know me better than that.

What do you think I wore in that pool? Did you not look around and notice that everybody else was likely wearing typical swimming goggles? There's only one- There's a reason for that. There's only one mask guy in every pool. Yes. They're like, who's this guy from Los Angeles from the New York Times wearing a snorkeling mask? In his camo, what's it called?

The swim, not speedos, but the longer. Trunks. The little, no, they were jammers. My camo jammers with my thing, but it was, you know, the sun, like there was still like a sliver of the moon over the Rockies and sun hadn't come up yet. The jammers. My camo jammers with my thing. But it was, you know, the sun, like there was still like a sliver of moon over the Rockies and sun hadn't come up yet.

It was quite beautiful. And then afterwards, like someone's making great vegan pancakes on the griddle. He eats his breakfast in the shower. Well, James is definitely not vegan. No, as I learned over the course of that day. You sent me a photo of him eating a pancake in the shower. Yeah, he was eating his blueberry pancakes

in the shower as he got ready. So then they took off on the bike and I kind of followed them around a little bit just at the beginning. And then at the halfway point I met them, they would all descend. The cyclists would descend on this mini mart in the middle of Payson, Utah.

And it was pretty fun to watch that. And then I followed him around the hay fields for a while. And then I did some time on the marathon like you, I walked a chunk of it that evening. And that was my day 99. And what was cool was the community that kind of rallied around them and the camaraderie and all these individuals that had,

and on day 99 and day 100, I really focused a lot on talking to some people that had done some really amazing personal firsts, like a neighbor that they have, who's he's not a really tall guy. So he was 60 pounds overweight when this thing started. And he started to show up. He'd never done swam a lap in his life.

And he comes in and James insists he gets in the pool. He gets in the pool, starts to cobble together pieces of the swim, piece of the ride, piece of the run. He loses 35 pounds by day nine and on day 98, he finishes the entire full distance. Finishing it after everyone else. And then he still had six miles to walk. Is he the Hispanic guy?

Yeah. I talked to him. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's an incredible story. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. He's from, his family's from Mexico, but he has a Japanese name. I'll get it for you. I have it queued up here.

So that was one story. His name was Takashi Nzunza. And that's one story. Another story, Haley Ingram Jones, she gave birth to her first child in January. Her husband was really into this and he joined kind of the caravan, did a couple full distance triathlons, several marathons.

He was one of the, you know, the guys in the yellow shirts that were kind of keeping a bubble. Yeah. He was one of those guys. She had never ridden a road bike before. She'd never swam laps in her life, but she just felt left out, felt bad. She felt like, it sounded to me, they were surprised by the pregnancy

and she wasn't like fully mentally prepared for her whole life to change. And I talked to her several times and she was just feeling, she was in that funk. And she just ended up like taking two weeks to kind of feel it out. Did one 33 mile ride on her dad's bike that she borrowed, worked out, looked at YouTube for a workable swim stroke.

And then she just said the heck with it. Two weeks later, she has the whole damn thing. Full distance. It's so crazy. And this really is the story here. It's about the power of community and the example that James set and the vibe of inclusivity and this sense of heightened possibility

where these people, I mean, that's a woman who would never even conceive or consider doing a full distance Ironman. That person's not signing up for an official Ironman. No. But seeing those people out there every single day, suddenly it seems like, hey, maybe I can do this. And you chip away at it.

And then a week later, you're like doing the whole thing. The whole thing. It's crazy. Two brothers, 18 and 14, their mother was a triathlete. She died after a long bout with breast cancer. They heard about, that was last August. They heard about this after it had already started, maybe in May, I forget.

And the younger brother did several marathons. The older brother did two full distance and several marathons with his brother. I mean, this is like, and it's the same thing. Every time it's almost with minimal training. We met a PhD student from Mumbai who lives in Dallas that moved there to do the marathons. He's getting his PhD in like AI.

And he had promised himself that he would one day run a marathon, but just couldn't get himself off the couch to get going on it. And was following what James was doing on Instagram and just basically said, screw it. Flew from Dallas to Utah, got a hotel room and just started showing up. He moved in with his buddy who lives in Draper, Utah.

Is that what it is? Yeah, yeah, yeah. He sort of set up shop here though. He did. He relocated essentially. Yeah, he did. So that he could come and join in the marathon, which he did a little bit here and there.

This is Syed, Syed is his name. Yeah, Syed. And then he started just doing the whole marathon. I think he did six of them or seven of them or something like that. Would do his schoolwork during the day cause it's all virtual. And then show up at, they'd start the marathon around,

between like 1.30 and three every day and bang it out. And the mother is Haley Ingram Jones and the boys are the Lindberghs, Jacob and Sam. Jacob's the eldest. The point is there's unlimited stories like this. Like when I was there on day 91, I met so many people who had some version of that same story. They'd lost a ton of weight or they changed their life. And they just wanted to come out, support James

and also have this experience for themselves. I mean, again and again and again. Yeah, I mean, that's the, I think the unexpected galvanizing force of this whole thing was the fact that by doing a hundred in a row, he made a full distance iron cowboy triathlon feel doable. Like personally, someone who's done a sprint triathlon has done this, you know, the smaller swim runs

and loves to get out there. It's been a long time since I've ridden bikes regularly, but I used to do that a lot. I never thought it was doable for me. I never even considered that it would be doable for me personally to ever do it. It's been presented and marketed as the most difficult thing anybody could ever do.

Like the ultimate endurance challenge. He normalized it in such a way. And now like- Which is perhaps why the Ironman brand is not so crazy. Maybe not, but in a way it's actually good for them. Like- It is ultimately. Because more people are gonna say, oh, I could do that, I'm gonna sign up for one.

Well, that's the thing, I was there and I remember telling you, I'm like, for the first time I feel like I could actually do this. But it's weird because first of all, let's keep it real. James Lawrence is an elite athlete. This is not, we're talking about- Well, he's off the charts. Yeah, let's keep it real. James Lawrence is an elite athlete. This is not, we're talking about- Well, he's off the charts. Yeah, he's off it.

Like when he was before, so he's also a crazy competitive and gets his mind. Like when, before all this, when he was just like a guy attending bar and golfing in Canada, he like heard about some contests on the Ferris wheel in his town. And he had to stay on the Ferris wheel for 10 days,

like from 8 a.m. to the park close at 10 PM. And the last guy standing was gonna win over 25 grand or something like that. And he does that, like he wins that. Yeah, he demonstrates his mental fortitude early. Early on. And that sets the stage. It's almost cinematic. Like it's foreshadowing.

The Ferris wheel, the Ferris wheel scene. Yeah, he told that story the first time he came on the podcast. It's wild. But that's a great story. It is a great story. And that being said, that's one of the many reasons

why I mentioned earlier on the podcast, and I said this to James on day 91 when I was with him, I said, you're so physically strong. Like he's not built like a runner or a triathlete. Like he's a brick, this guy's ripped. But that strength is eclipsed by his mental strength. And my fear was that because this is a guy who's just never gonna quit,

like there's no way this guy's gonna pull out. Like he is not gonna fall prey to some kind of mental defect that's gonna get him to pull the rip cord. He will literally break his body before he says stop. And I said that to him, I go, that's, you know, what I said on the podcast, that's my perspective on this. So I worry about the long-term physical implications of what you're doing.

And he proceeded to tell me some pretty crazy stories about what he's endured and whether that aren't really part of what's been shared on Instagram. Basically, we all saw him after, I don't know, it must've been like five or eight of these things when his ankles were all swollen up. He was having unbelievable shin pain, could barely walk. And it looked like the whole thing

was gonna crater or teeter. And then he threw a friend of a friend, got hooked up with an orthopedic surgeon who knew somebody who was working on this sort of device that was a bit of a, what do you call it? Like a brace. He said it was a carbon fiber insole that with the brace secured it.

So it allowed it some sort of cushioning. They customized it though. There was a clinical application for it and they customized it to make it work for him and his particular dilemma. And he ended up wearing that for quite a long time and that allowed his shin to heal. But he said short of that,

he felt like he might just snap his leg in half. That's how much pain he was in. And he was willing to do that. Like this is, he just snap his leg in half. That's how much pain he was in. And he was willing to do that. Like this is, he will snap his leg before he quits. But the brace allowed that to heal, but then it created an imbalance that started to cause problems in his hip on the other side. Radiated to his hip. And then he got in a bike wreck

that would have taken somebody out, most people out. They wouldn't even have finished and he didn't even miss a day. The woman riding in front of him got something caught in her spokes, I believe, and toppled over. He got lucky there, cause that could have been a lot worse.

And that's why those guys in the yellow shirts are so important. And Casey and Aaron, his wingman, they're out there protecting him, policing the Peloton and making sure that people get a little bit of juice from James from time to time, but also making sure that there's a little bit of a barrier to protect him.

When there's so many people out there participating, they all wanna have a little bit of a moment with James. Right? Right. And that could be very destabilizing or distracting for this guy who's trying to do something very hard. So in addition to just physically barricading him, they also have to be politicians. Like they're both very gregarious characters.

Oh, great guys. They're amazing. Aaron is a very gifted cyclist. Casey, I mean, obviously can do the riding, but Casey is more the runner. And he's you know, he swam three days a week. Talking to everybody, tell me your name. Like if he saw somebody getting too close

or hogging, you know, the time, he would have to go in there and nicely try to distract people away from him. I mean, that's a skill in its own right. It is. And on day 99, though, he seemed relaxed. Like on day 99, it felt like, you know, he wasn't worried about, you know,

they knew they needed to make a bubble for day 100, but Casey was so chill on the marathon. I started calling it the marathon, not the run, because that's what it was. And it's not really a walk, like you said, it's more like a march. So on the marathon, he was like super relaxed on day 99. I was able to talk with him for awhile,

but then day 100 we're there and he decides, and he goes, so the average speed on the bike for most of it has been, the pool was the same, two minutes, a hundred on the two minutes, like you said, 40 of those. And then the ride, he was mostly keeping it like at 19 miles per hour, kind of as the average pace. And Aaron was monitoring his pulse rate

and keep making sure it was around 120, which is crazy. I mean like at altitude. And then, but the next day they fired up that pace to about 25 miles an hour. I think it was just under 25 miles an hour. So they were hauling. And then for the first time since day five, he was gonna run the whole marathon and they go.

And we caught them at one point and ran with them for a little bit. I stopped and interviewed some people, but what was the pace? Like 10 minutes, a little under? When we were running on day 100? Yeah, it wasn't fast, but he was running for the first time in a very long time.

And it was a very hot day. It was very hot day. So we run with- And what's the altitude? Like 6,000? No, I think it's just under 5,000. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And around 5, 5,500 maybe.

So he was probably running 930, 10 minute pace. Yeah, and so then you and I break out and we're playing, because we're not running the whole thing with them. And we figure we wanna get to the high school for the finish. And so we do that. We go to the high school for the finish.

And all of a sudden I'm talking to Lucy who paused to recognize Lucy Lawrence, who while her dad's doing this and she's managing the entire social media and the PR and she's 18 and she graduated high school within that period of time, just before like he finished with not just her diploma, but with an AA degree, like the equivalent of a two years of college.

Yeah, she's amazing. And for those who enjoyed this whole experience on James's Instagram, that's all Lucy. Like she produced this entire virtual event. She was running social for James. Meanwhile, coordinating relationships with sponsors and also all the merchandise stuff that they were doing. We were out running and on day 91, and she's like,

you gotta do a sponsored spot for this company. And she's like, here's what you need to say. And she's literally like, I was like, you should go to Hollywood and produce movies. Like she was so on it. She's like, no, you're not doing it right. You gotta do it like this. And we need this now, you know, like bossing him around.

Oh yeah, she's good. She, if you're a brand out there who needs somebody to run social, she is who you're looking for. Yes. Unbelievable how committed she was to this and what an incredible job that she did. And so anyway, I'm kind of like checking with her

to see how he's doing and she gets a message and we realized that James is actually having trouble. So from mile 19, his legs would stop working just all of a sudden. Just to back up for a second here. When I ran the first six miles with him on that day and he had told me on day 91 that he was gonna bust a move on day 100 and lay it out.

He shows up with the fancy running shoes. He's good to go on day 100, starts out with a jog. We're running lightly. I could tell he didn't really want to interact with anybody, but I did get a couple, you know, quick moments with him. And I said, are you still planning on dropping the hammer today? And he said at mile 20, I'm gonna drop the hammer.

Like that was the plan. He was gonna lay it out. And I said, how do you feel? He says, I feel fantastic. It's like, all right, good to go. So yes, after six miles I pulled out, you and I went to lunch. Then we go to the high school and we're helping them set up.

There's gonna be this big to do when it comes into this, that high school was enormous by the way, gigantic with this huge football field and stadium. And we helped set up like a finish line and all that kind of stuff. And then sorry to interrupt. No. And so then we were just kind of hanging out

and then I get wind of what's happening and I'm like, I gotta get there. And so I start kind of jogging up to where they're gonna come down off that kind of city bike trail. Cause they would do out and back, two different out and backs normally, but this time they were coming off that trail

that they do these out and backs on. And then you call me, you lost track of me. And I'm like, and all of a sudden you cut to you and I running up to meet the marathon. Right, so Lucy sent you a little video clip. He was literally stumbling. Well, I was standing next to her when she first got it. And then I'm like, I gotta get there.

So we went up and we get up there, maybe a mile from the finish or something. Something like that, a mile and a half. A mile and a half. And he starts, and we, like this minute we see him, he has another one of those episodes. And we saw it like three or four times where his wing men were actually catching him

or he would have fallen on his face. He was passing out and stumbling over his feet, like losing consciousness. So the plan- He claims he wasn't, but I think he might've been. Well, I don't know that he's the best narrator. He's an unreliable narrator of his own experience in that moment because he was so out of it.

So the idea of like dropping the hammer, cause in the 50, 50, 50, he was drilling it like the last marathon and he was finishing with like six, 630 miles for the last 10K or something like that. I think he wanted to repeat that performance. It was a really hot day. One of the things we had talked about was

why did he start this thing when it was literally snowing and sleeting and so cold? When you're built like that, you're not gonna do well in heat. He doesn't have the thin body composition that allows his core temperature to cool down quickly. Heat affects him disproportionately, I think in part because of his bulk.

And he knew that the heat was gonna be a problem for him. And that's why he started it as, in the winter months in the way that he did. And he was sort of reaping that on that final day where the heat I think was really catching up to him. But yet he never stopped running. He didn't walk. He kept running. He would pull it together and start running.

And then he gets in and he does four laps around the oval. And you were right there in the first couple of those. And I broke off and just tried to chase him down. They let like everybody run one lap and then it was only friends and supporters or something like that. And I was gonna pull out, but Lucy and Sonny were like, no, you should go.

So I was able to kind of run behind the wingman and take a little bit of video of that that I shared. And then the last lap he did by himself. But he did the last two laps, apparently according to his watch, he did sub seven minute pace. So he did get a little taste. And this is after like almost collapsing,

half dozen times at least. Yes, unbelievable performance. I call that like, that's one of the great athletic performance you'll ever see. And the crowds roaring, there's over a thousand people. They thought there would be 2000. It might've been close to that by the end. It was definitely over a thousand people.

It was finishing a little bit earlier. They were expecting about 2000 people. I would say there's probably maybe a thousand or something like that. I'm not a very good judge. But that whole grandstand was packed. It was crazy. It was crazy.

And it was so exhilarating and amazing to see him conclude this chapter in his life. And then he gets up moments later and gives a speech and he's regaling people. Like he came back to life. Yeah, he did. You would have thought this guy's getting carried out on a stretcher.

He's going to the hospital. Yeah, that's what I thought. He goes, he gives a 10 minute speech and then spends the next two hours signing autographs and taking pictures of people on his feet. I know. Unbelievable. I know.

But he also had told me, they had told me that there's gonna be a day one-on-one. Yeah. And I was flying out that you flew out. He told me that too. So that was planned. He wanted to spring it on people, but obviously he already had a kit made up.

So he knew he was gonna do that. The merch was strong. The merch game was strong. I mean, a new kit every day. Are you kidding me? I can't imagine what their house looks like, which is boxes. And I wouldn't wanna be responsible

for shipping all that stuff out. Great designs. The wingman bike kit is fabulous. Yeah, I love it. Yeah, so doesn't tell anybody except, obviously his supporters and his family that he's gonna do this and wakes up the next day and just blows people's minds by doing another one.

Just basically went to the pool by himself and then his wingman and a couple of friends joined him for the last day to just put the nail in the coffin to any doubters. And to really emphasize and underscore the point that even when you achieve such an outlandish goal, you can actually still do more. Yeah, I actually was able to swim with him in that morning,

a couple of lanes over. He did the first section of the swim by himself. And then I was able to, they allowed me to get in there and I swam maybe 1500 or something with him. Did he have any words for you about your goggle equipment? No, you might be surprised. He was focused on the task at hand. Right.

He had something else on his mind. One thing I did wanna ask you about though. Yes. You got a lot of love out there on the course. It's true. A lot of people were like, I know that laugh. Wait, is that Adam? Yeah, that's true.

So in addition to this being your first field assignment since before COVID, we're here on the one year anniversary. It's really the first time that you've ventured out into the world outside of Los Angeles. So you got a little bit of taste, a little taste of audience love. I got some of that rich roll.

There's a lot of podcast fans out there. I had some rich roll shine on me. So it was good. I love that. That was the coolest thing for me, having you get recognized for doing this thing here on the mic. Thanks man.

Really, really awesome. Yeah, it was cool. The first time that's really happened. I mean, it was disorienting at times, but in a good way. And I appreciate the audience and this position I'm in right now. So the seat. Yeah, it's cool.

And it was, that is like the, for you too. I mean, that is like the exact play even, what's cool about it is you've been promoting what James has been doing from day one. And so it's not surprising that there was such an intersection there because like part of the reason Saeed Syed was there was because you told him about James Lawrence.

Right, because I was doing podcasts with him a long time ago. Yeah, yeah. I've been talking about him forever. I still feel like media is dropping the ball in terms of giving this guy some love. Yeah. I think this sort of eclipsed

any kind of mainstream attention. I'm delighted that the New York Times greenlit you going out there and doing a story. And I look forward to that story coming out. Yeah. But on the whole, aside from a couple like sort of local news stories, there hasn't been that much attention.

Sports Illustrated wrote an article. I was really glad to see that they acknowledged what he had done. But when we were on the final day. But they weren't there. Yeah, they weren't there. Nobody else had showed up except for you. But when we were there on the final day

and we're at the high school on the football field, I got wind that this Washington Post article had come out about James that I wanna pull up right now. Which we both kind of read together standing on the football field. Well, yeah, Sonny, who's James's wife, comes up to me and says, don't do what the Washington Post did.

I'm like, wait, what? Yeah. So then we read this thing. So we read this article. It's titled, Through Pain and Controversy, The Iron Cowboy Chases 100 Triathlons in 100 Days. The first, how does this open? The second paragraph, did they?

Oh yeah, so when it's describing James, the paragraph introducing him basically says, "'Billing himself as the quote unquote iron cowboy, "'Lawrence aims to conquer 100 full distance triathlons "'in 100 days.'" And this art, which is kind of like a little bit of a backhanded, not so nice way of introducing him. This article proceeds to chronicle

what he's attempting to do, but it does it in a very kind of condescending way and chooses to focus on things that I think are not the point. There's no mention of the community and all these people that have come out. This journalist didn't show up for any aspect of this to be boots on the ground, to experience what was happening

and focused on things like, oh, he takes an IV at night, which is basically- A couple of times a week. Yeah, to help himself recover, which James has been extremely transparent about. He basically tells you what he's doing and shows you and says what's in the IV.

And it's essentially the same thing that you would get if you completed an Ironman and went into the tent afterwards, which is what a lot of people do at those races. And then a bunch of other stuff that just really is a distraction from what he was attempting to do without a lot of recognition

around just how extraordinarily difficult this is. The kind of groundbreaking, you know, legendary aspect of doing something that nobody had ever done before. Right. And I just thought it was lazy of doing something that nobody had ever done before. And I just thought it was lazy and uncool. I was like, why are you even writing? You thought it was a hit piece.

Yeah, it's like a hit piece. And why even write this article? I didn't understand it. I can't speak for that reporter, but most likely he would have loved to come out and he probably just didn't get approved to come out. And that's just a guess from a guy sitting in a room. I have no idea.

I have no connection to this reporter or to the Washington Post, but- It focuses on criticism and controversy with respect to his charity of choice and also some grumblings within the triathlon community. There was a bit of a controversy when he did the 50, 50, 50 because of weather conditions and logistics, he was forced to do, I don't know how,

like a marathon or two on an elliptical, which was not his preference, which made people think, well, he didn't really do this thing. I think there was a couple of things. One was like he did everything indoors on a bad weather day. And then the other thing he had an injury and he said, and I think he did the marathon in the elliptical because as long as he's indoors, why not do that?

Which or something like that, that's in his book. It gave people a reason to take him down a notch. And there's a snarkiness to all of this. And I think one of the reasons why- And it talks about WADA, right? And like, what does WADA think of him doing these IVs? And does this really count as a record? Is this really a record at all?

The fact that the discussion is around whether or not this is a record, like who cares? I don't care if it's a record. Who cares if it ends up in the Guinness Book of World? It's like, that's not the point. The point is this guy went out and did something unbelievably hard. He did it with his friends.

He did it with whatever support that he could muster. And he impacted thousands, if not hundreds of thousands of people around the world who are now rethinking their own perception of personal capability. And the fact that this article didn't acknowledge any aspect of that, I think is irresponsible. And it bummed me out that this article even existed.

To me, it's really a story that should be all about basically what the thing is called, conquering the impossible, doing this impossible thing and the impact that it's had on other people. And you see other athletes, it's very telling in who's flocked to kind of be a part of this thing. And people from all backgrounds, all over the country. And people from all backgrounds all over the country,

he's getting messages from all over the world. Other athletes are super impressed. That was the big thing. Well, like Tommy Rivs came out, who's recovering from cancer, still in his struggle and got through six miles with James, which was huge. But the other thing is that because there was this controversy with the 50, 50, 50,

with the elliptical and whatnot, he really wanted to quiet all of that and put it to bed. So that's one reason I think that he decided to do 100 and then do 101. And along the way, if you go to places like Slow Twitch, which is notorious for a cantankerous forum section where people like to take people down a peg, he basically turned the tide there

and now has essentially unanimous support from the endurance and multi-sport community at large. It's funny is that one thing he said that was disappointing and the whole team was saying is that the local triathlon community did not turn out for him. And they never really understood why. During the 50, he was getting a lot of support

until this, that elliptical thing happened. And then I don't know what happened, it fell apart. But in the 100, they weren't showing up. They weren't showing up to the swims. They weren't showing up to the bikes. They weren't showing up to the runs. The people that really showed up were the cyclists in Linden and around there.

A lot of cyclists. A lot of cyclists would turn up. There's a lot of cyclists in that area. Because they were doing something of a criterion in the middle of Payson, like a 14 mile loop. They would do it like three or four times. They'd ride there and then they would do the, they do the loop and then they'd ride back.

And so some, they would have like the leaders, they would be in the Peloton kind of like you said in the cut, you know, like the, and this arrowhead of riders would take turns and they'd switch off and they'd go hard and lead the pack and break wind. And so the cyclists really were heroes. And then the everyday people who turned up were heroes.

So it is weird that the triathletes couldn't show up for him. Yeah, they thought it was weird, but you know. It's a weird cultural thing. Right, and it's weird. And I understand like, you know, look for whatever it is, we, when you see a story that's duplicitous or has several aspects to it, there's something about that that's good.

But at the same time, yes, you could, there's this version of the story where a lot of people told the story without getting into the controversy. They just wanted to tell the story of this guy doing this hard thing. And some editors like the multi-pronged approach because it's a more nuanced story

and it's a little bit more something to chew on. Personally, I was just glad to be there and witness it. That last day, that finish was remarkable to get up every day with him. And even for me just to get up every day, the pool was hard. I mean, at 5 a.m. And he's getting five hours of sleep and he was like the stuff that didn't get into my stories, his pool was hard. I mean, at 5 a.m. And he's getting five hours of sleep

and he was like the stuff that didn't get into my stories, his sleep was not like, you'd expect him just to collapse and like sleep hard, like a rock for five hours. He said he was having night terrors, waking up screaming. You told me about that. Night terrors, sweating profusely,

like his sleep score, he had this bio tracker thing and he was getting terrible sleep scores. So he would go home at the end of the day, get on the massage table, get worked on, fall asleep on the massage table, move to the couch, get the Norma Tech boots on and essentially fall asleep. But he never slept deeply. He would have crazy dreams.

He was sleepwalking somewhat, night terrors. I never had night terrors, it's like wacky. Crazy. And then on top of the whole thing, I wanna get into kind of where he's at now physically and emotionally. He was telling me on day 91 that he could, that for a long time, he hasn't been able to feel anything

in his two of his toes on his left foot. Not the big toe, but the two next to the big toe. And he said, I'm probably gonna have to, it's a nerve thing that probably has to do with his back and his hip or something like that. But he has no feeling in them and they might have to get removed. And he was okay with that.

It's his idea, I think. He's like, let's just get rid of them. They've caused me nothing but trouble these toes. So the lengths to which this guy has gone, the extent to, please do not be confused. Like this guy has taken his body to the brink. And if you've been following him in the days that have elapsed since he's completed this,

you see somebody who's struggling right now. He immediately came down to LA and went to UCLA to have all these tests done. They put him on the stationary bike. He breaks the record. Crazy. I don't know what the record is in the hospital or whatever, but whatever it was, he broke it.

6% body fat, but brain fog. He's having trouble with his thinking and his speaking. I think he's struggling a little bit, kind of emotionally. I would imagine. Existentially. He was on this great wild journey. He was saying like he gets up in the morning

and he just wanders around, he doesn't know what to do. Right. It's like his body is so traumatized and was in this survival mode for so long. And it's reckoning now with like, what comes next? And we'll see, we'll see how that plays out. Of course, I wanna get him back on the show, but I'm not like, when he's ready,

he knows he has an open invitation here and he knows how much I love him and how much this audience loves and appreciates him. So he knows he's welcome and when he's ready to come on, we'll get him back on the show. He told me that he can't even unpack it yet. So the longer you wait actually might be better in terms of unpacking some of the details.

Yeah. He is incredibly gifted also at basically dropping these wise speeches at the end of every day. Like he's done this whole thing and then he'll give this inspirational five to 10 minutes speech at the end of every day. Like he has a command on the power of what he's doing

and how it impacts other people. And he's developing a greater and greater facility or capacity to communicate that in a way that's impactful to people as well. Boom. So we love you,'s impactful to people as well. Boom. So we love you, James. We wish you well, we were proud and happy to be able to be there, to bear witness

and to support you as you completed this crazy thing. So any final thoughts on that? What does it all mean? I just want my story to come out. Yeah, what is this? I mean, you turned it in, what's going on? I mean, technically I'm gonna- How does this newspaper function?

Apparently there's other stories out there. You know, I get sometimes antsy when stories get held, especially when you like them and you want them out there. And I'm sure the Lawrence family wants it too. But the good thing about the New York Times is the reach is great and their skill at storytelling is great. So it tends to land well, whenever it comes out.

I remember the Maya Gabera story, which is one of the best performing stories I've done probably ever. They held that for like two, three weeks or something. And I was really antsy about that one. Did they tell you what the traffic is? Do they give you analytics on how well your story does or how many people have read it?

No, I get general kind of feeling from it though. Like it's that's proprietary stuff and I'm not on staff there. So I don't really ask for specific numbers and they wouldn't be obligated or it wouldn't be wise for them to tell me anyway. So, but I have a good relationship with my editors there and they let me know when things are going well,

when it's pinging all over the world and what's doing well. So typically these things do do well. They do better than the typical sports stories that they run. Yeah. Yeah. Well, we need a good follow up to the woman who fell two miles to earth. And this might just be the thing.

Yeah, maybe. I hope so. I hope people like it. And this might just be the thing. Yeah, maybe. I hope so. I hope people like it. And I think it's an interesting read. I get into what he consumed on day 99 in the story. And his food intake. Yeah, which is worth, I'm not gonna spoil that. That's a good one.

Right, well, we're recording this on Monday, June 21st. It will publish on June 24th, perhaps in the intervening days. Should be. The story will come out. If it has or it hasn't, if it has, of course we'll link it up in the show notes and in the description on YouTube.

But if it hasn't come out by that point, we'll be sure to let everybody know and direct attention to that. Perfect. Cool. Well, let's take a quick break and we'll be back with Winds of the Week and my conversation with Jacob Frey.

And we're back, Adam, let's do some Winds of the Week. Let's go, what you got? First up, we have the Great Lakes Jumper. I love the Great Lakes Jumper. I love the Great Lakes Jumper. Another New York Times story. This is the story of a man who jumped into Lake Michigan every day for nearly a year. That's literally the headline of the article.

I'm gonna pull it up right here. I love this piece. You love it too, right? I do love it. I love it for a couple of reasons. So this is a guy who basically lives in Chicago and at the start of the pandemic was struggling like a lot of people.

And I don't know what came over him, but he decided that he was gonna jump into Lake Michigan. And that day turned into a second day, turned into a streak that he has stuck with for over a year at this point. Yeah. Literally jumping in year round into Lake Michigan. He makes, I guess he makes like hand stencil t-shirts for bands and travels around to festivals.

And when all that went away, he didn't know what to do with himself, but he has these relationships with musicians and he would have musicians come out and play live at like 10 30 in the morning. Well, he would jump into the lake and he was sharing this on Instagram and everybody just kind of fell in love with this guy.

53 year old guy, what's his name? Dan O'Connor. O'Connor. And Julie Bosman did the story. I think it's a great story. Cause it's like what I love about it. And Julie gets into this in the story. One of the reasons I love it is, is that we've been taking ourselves way too seriously.

That's a culture. He just got tired of politics. He got tired of the bullshit. And he just needed something pure. Here's a little, let me play this like Instagram clip of him jumping in. Cause this is what he would do. He would literally jump in.

He would do cannon balls and all sorts of things, right? I don't know if we can get the sound on this, probably not. This is his cannon ball. Here he is, yeah. Good job. 41 degree air, 44 degree water. Good for him. There's another one of him jumping in in the ice.

There he is doing a flip with the musician. And where's the one of him in the ice. That's crazy. Yeah, he'd have chip away. He had to chip away. 22 degrees out. And he had to chip away at ice. And it's not Wim Hofian.

There's nothing optimizing about this. No, it's just joy. It's just pure joy. And like, I love this, cause like this is what we need. We don't need this unnecessary counterproductive, like jabbering at each other. We just need some dude willing to jump

and flop into the water. And do a frozen lake every day to remind us that we're all human. Life is not, sometimes this is what you have to do. You do a frozen lake every day to remind us that we're all human. Sometimes this is what you have to do. I had a period of time in my life, I think it was 2005, where like things I felt like I didn't know where I was in my life. And that's what I started to do,

it was like February or something. And I started to do every day for 40 days cause I was like big into Kundalini yoga at the time. And you know, as Guru Singh says, sometimes every after 40 days, the cells in your blood, you have fully recycled. So like you've kind of recharge. That's why they do 40 day meditations in Kundalini yoga.

And so it was kind of like that. I would walk down from my apartment to the beach and jump in the ocean and just swim past the waves and bob around a little bit and come back. I did every day. It turned out to be like 60 jump in the ocean and just swim past the waves and bob around a little bit and come back. I did every day. It turned out to be like 60 days by the time I was done. It did help, you know, like,

and I wasn't open water swimmer at the time. I wasn't doing a lot of that. And so I was certainly wasn't in love with the cold water yet. And so there's something about the power of surrendering to like that ritual. Sometimes you need a ritual like that to like get your mind right. Yeah. I mean, what's not to about the power of surrendering to like that ritual. Sometimes you need a ritual like that to like get your mind right.

Yeah, I mean, what's not to love about this guy? Look at him. I love it. Just floating in the lake, man. Sometimes that's what life's about. Yeah. Not this, not what we have going on here. There's a couple of things I wanted to mention

about this though, because there's a few analogies here. I wanted to draw attention to one of which is, it's reminiscent of what the happy pair guys have been doing for a couple of years at this point. People who listen to the podcast are familiar with David and Steven Flynn. They live in Greystones, Ireland, which is about an hour south of Dublin.

They run a veg shop. They're prolificstones, Ireland, which is about an hour south of Dublin. They run a veg shop. They're prolific on social media, sharing this message of healthy, vibrant living, super fit, identical twins. And a couple of years ago, they just started jumping into the Irish Sea every morning at dawn, like, and that became their routine. And they would share it on Instagram and Instagram stories.

And slowly but surely surely people started showing up to do this with them. It's amazing. And now there are days where hundreds of people show up to do this and they do it year round. It doesn't matter how cold it is. And then they all congregate on the beach and share a bowl of porridge and have breakfast

and tell stories and sometimes there's a campfire. And they've really created this amazing movement and community around just getting into cold water every single day. Greystones, Ireland. Greystones, yeah. It's a little village about an hour. It's sort of a suburb, but it's its own thing

about an hour south of Dublin. So those guys have been doing their version of this for quite a while. I was there for an early incarnation of it. And that water is cold, man. I gotta tell you. So you did do it. Yeah, I've done it with them.

That's cool. Secondly, there's something about this idea of streaks, like the idea that you're gonna do it every single day, no matter what, like the happy pear guys, like this guy in Chicago, which leads me to think about a guest that's coming on this week, Hella Sidibe, who is on this extraordinary run day streak.

He's run over 1400 days consecutively without missing a single day, including being the first black guy to run across the United States, which he completed a couple of weeks ago. So he's coming on the show this week. I'm not sure when we're gonna air that, but I'm sitting down with him.

That's exciting, I love him. And I think this idea of streaks, it's like, no matter what, this guy's gonna run. And no matter what, that dude's gonna jump into Lake Michigan and the happy pair guys are gonna get into the Irish Sea. And when you prioritize it and create momentum around that consistency, look what can happen.

It's kind of an amazing, powerful, mystical thing. It is, it is mystical. Cause it's not about trying to get ahead or get anywhere other than just do that one thing. And that's the power of it. Right. It's surprising with the guy in Chicago that there aren't people showing up to do it with him.

There were. They're not like huge crowds. Right, right, right. Just towards the end, I think he had like a cookout. Yeah, he had a couple of bands. But I liked that Hella is coming on. He's also, I saw him commenting supportive message on Iron Cowboy's Instagram.

Yeah, I did too. Which was cool to see that. I mean, even the Iron Cowboy, a. Yeah, I did too. Which was cool to see that. I mean, even Iron Cowboy, 100 days in a row, same idea. Right, consistency, streaks, momentum. I've changed a diaper. I see a theme. How many days in a row is that now? You've been breathing consistently

for many days in a row. I have. We all do things consistently without thinking about it. What can we add on? And when you look at it, when you just make it the priority and you orient your life around that, these things that seem daunting suddenly become rote. And when you take them in bite-sized chunks,

just I don't have to worry about tomorrow, just today. How am I gonna get my run in today? How am I gonna jump in Lake Michigan today? That's all it is. That's it, man. Couple more wins of the week. I wanted to shout out Jason Caldwell and this great Pacific race that's happening right now.

It's a 2,400 nautical mile event of rowing that started on May 31st, where Jason and his team of four, along with a couple other teams are attempting to row from San Francisco to Hawaii, to Honolulu. I guess only 22 teams and 60 people have ever completed this race. You did some research on this.

Yeah. It's like it launched in 2014. Yeah, it's held every two years, launched in 2014. The record was set of 39 days, is that what we said? Yeah, 39 days in 2016. The pandemic delayed last year's race and now they're on to odd years. You can put in your application for 2023 right now, Rich.

That's something I won't be doing, but I've got mad respect for Jason and his teammates for tackling this thing. The first half of the race apparently saw some big conditions out there in the seas and it's been glassier lately. They're on day 22, I think. Day 22, was it 21 or 26?

The world record is 39 days. 39 days. So they're well into 22, I think. Day 22, was it 21 or 26? The world record is 39 days. 39 days. So they're well into it at this point. They're on day 22, yes, yes, yes, yes. What's interesting about this event is you would think if you just got the four best rowers in the world, you would crush it, but that's not really how this works. You certainly need people who are very good at rowing,

but what's more important is finding people who are experienced in adversity and adventure sports. Like how are you gonna deal with being wet all the time and having your sleep disrupted and vomiting because of the way, like all the conditions that get thrown at you and the variables, et cetera. So one of the things, Jason is an extraordinarily accomplished adventure athlete.

This guy's crossed the Nibbip Desert. He's rode the Atlantic twice. The first time he broke the American record, despite two of his crew being airlifted for medical reasons. Then he came back with a new team and broke the world record. He's done all kinds of things in different terrains and environments.

And he's got these other teammates, Angus Collins, Gus Barton and Duncan Roy. The same guys are back? I don't know. I should do a little bit more research on this, but these guys are not all like collegiate accomplished rowers. Jason's got obviously a background in rowing,

but I think there's a diversity of experience and background that these guys all bring that allow this kind of this to function optimally as a team sort of experience. The video on his Atlantic race is really telling. I don't think it's the same three guys from the Atlantic race, but one of the guys from the Atlantic race

who was the best rower was actually not used to rowing in open ocean. And so he had really bad seasickness for the first 24 something hours. And it looked like it was gonna be another airlift situation but they were able to stabilize him and get him some rest. And then he became a real valuable asset just crushing it down the stretch.

They're in these kayaks similar to how Colin O'Brady and his team crossed. It's the same kind of boat. Kayak is the wrong word. I mean, these are large boats. So two people, I think two people are rowing at a time and the other two are sleeping. They do these shifts.

So they're literally going around the clock. Two at a time, it's four. Most teams have four people. The other two teams in the water, we should note are all female teams. There's the Ocean sheroes, which are hot on the tail of the guys. I don't know how far, they're probably a good ways back.

But if you look at the tracker, they look like they're hot on their tails, but they're doing great. I mean, they're right there. And then the girls who dare are having a little bit more trouble. They're going south. It looks like they're going south

to catch a Western current. So they're still in it though. They're going south. It looks like they're going south to catch a Western current. So they're still in it though. They're still going. They're in Baja area. I mean, both these, they've gone a long way. They're already very south and west and they're well on their way to breaking a record here. And the Ocean Shiros might actually get

that 39 day record too. They're cruising. And they're a great follow also on Instagram too. Right, so I just wanted to put this on people's radar as this story rapidly unfolds, you can follow it. Best place to follow it is on Instagram at LAT35 racing, LAT the number three five racing where there's a bunch of updates here

and you can kind of pay attention and keep tabs on these guys. And the Great Pacific Race will have a link to click if you wanna see their tracker and then you can see how the three teams are doing. But so basically there are three teams, four men and seven women attempting to do this. I just, sometimes I think that's really cool

that like there's that many badass women out there going forward too. It's really cool that like there's that many badass women out there going forward too. It's very cool. So if they make it safely, we'll see if we can get Jason on the podcast to tell us all about it. Dope. So this is the point where we were gonna pivot

to Jacob Frye, but there's one more thing that we discussed this morning that you wanted to talk about. Should we or should we? No, let's do it. Okay. Why not? Let's do it. So go for it. Well, we, you know, this Supreme Court case just got, a verdict just got ruled on a Supreme Court case

about amateurism in American sport. And basically it was about the NCAA, which rules all college athletics. And they were trying to preserve things, the status quo, which is you have to be an amateur to play college sports. So that means even though these athletes in cases of football and baseball who make millions and hundreds of millions of dollars

for universities and for the NCAA, they don't get paid anything. So then when they do take a benefit, maybe under the NCAA, they don't get paid anything. So then when they do take a benefit, maybe under the table, they're somehow painted as corrupt and they're suspended and the burden of that is on them. And often they might come from families that don't have a lot of money and don't have a lot of opportunity outside sport,

especially when you're talking about football and basketball and largely black. And so the burden always falls on them. And the funny thing about amateurism is it's always been used as a cudgel against people that didn't have money or didn't have options. Even the Olympics, they used to be thought of as if you're an amateur athletic,

there's some amateur athletes, somehow that's more pure. And so we should hold that up, but that often kept Olympians impoverished or even all the way back to Duke and Jim Thorpe, which we talked about in the last roll on, those guys both came from backgrounds where they didn't have a lot of money and didn't have a lot of opportunity.

And Duke was able to be taken care of by people in Hawaii that allowed him to keep his amateurism. Otherwise he would have been disgraced and had his metal strip just like Jim Thorpe, who was arguably the best athlete of his era. And so that's been hanging over the NCAA and slowly but surely people have been trying to get rid of it. And the Supreme Court unanimously ruled

that that amateurism cloak is gone. You can't pay athletes whatever, it's not open market like free agency and professional sports, but you are gonna be able to give more benefits. There's gonna be less limits on that. There'll be stipends that will be allowed. There'll be all sorts of things that will give all athletes

in every sport, basically opportunities that they didn't have before. Yeah, I mean, the way I look at this is that it's just a crack, the door is starting to open because this is a very narrow ruling. It's not busting open the flood gates so that these NC2A athletes can start profiting off their likenesses and their social media

and get paid like professionals. It's a very narrow application of a particular law that allows them to get compensation for education related stuff, right? Like it's complicated, but the point being that this is a small piece in a much larger puzzle. And I'm glad that this is happening. I wish that it was going further and faster

because I think it's preposterous that these college athletes are not being compensated while the NCAA is enriching itself to an extreme extent. And so much of how these colleges operate functions on taking advantage of these athletes to sort of learn, like sort of gird their coffers. And I just find it in 2021 to be exploitive and extremely distasteful.

And I think more importantly, when you look at this more broadly from the perspective of what are colleges doing in general and where have we lost our way? I think there is an argument to be made for shining a light on the kind of scammy nature to which the university system and colleges in general are exploiting not just athletes, but students in general.

This is something that Scott Galloway, who's a professor of business at NYU and also kind of a YouTube and podcast star has been ranting about for a while, but he makes some really good points, which is basically that higher education has been squeezing students for 30 years. Tuition has exploded.

It's up 1400% since 1978, which is 15, it's a 15 X increase in the last 40 years. And the tuition to salary ratio used to be 25%, meaning you pay this certain tuition, but you can expect to earn this much when you get out into the workplace. But that 25%- 25 times. 25X, I mean,

is now dwindled to 1.4X. Crazy. So these numbers are out of whack. Meanwhile, housing costs have escalated from 2.8 times one average starting salary to 10 times one salary. So you can't make it work. No. And these colleges, you know, to coin Scott's phraseology

are essentially luxury brands that are driven by artificial scarcity to create irrational margins. And the colleges are drunk on this scarcity because they can create such massive demand for entrance. Meanwhile, they have these billion dollar endowments. And when universities used to, once aspire to be public servants, they're now just these brands.

And it doesn't make sense when you have these massive endowments, tuition costs are insane. And even doesn't make sense when you have these massive endowments, tuition costs are insane. And even when you look at someone like Scott or any typical university professor, and you compare how it breaks down in terms of what a student has to pay to attend a certain class

versus what that college professor is being paid to teach that class, it's also completely out of whack. It's something like a 90% commission on professors. So the point being that the exploitation is extreme with the athletes, but it's also exploitation across the board with students. And I think COVID presented an opportunity for us all to reimagine what this system could look like,

because driving this artificial scarcity really doesn't make sense anymore. Like if Yale has an entering class of, I don't even know what it is, 2,000, 3,000 people, why can't that be 50,000 people at a much reduced tuition price where you're in this hybrid virtual, learn from home situation?

Like if you really wanna be a public servant and if your priority is to provide higher education at a cost-effective point to the most number of people, we're capable of doing that. But these universities wanna protect the fact that they are luxury brands. And that's established by making it rare in the sense that a diamond is rare.

It's great, all great points. I think Gladwell did it in one of his first seasons of revisionist history. Oh, he goes off on this stuff. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. He did something and I think he profiled like Vassar or Smith or one of those two, the only like high-end college that actually uses its endowment for the students

to actually get poor students to come in and pays their entire way out of their endowment, which is what you're basically advocating. And it's not just exploiting students because it's exploiting all families because who's paying for the, sometimes it's the student getting into debt. Sometimes it's the family themselves,

but having to save and scrape together money over the course of an entire working life and then put it into the hands of these white tie, white shoe. The idea that young people are going out in the workplace straddled with extraordinary debt in an era where we're bailing out airlines and car companies and bankers

to the extent that we're doing, it just becomes really unpalatable. It does. And that's what has driven this incredible distrust, which is a great way to pivot to kind of the guy you're sitting in one of the toughest positions in politics. You know, his job was probably the hardest job in politics other than maybe, you know, the president during a pandemic.

I know. And because of all these things that are true, because of all these flaws in systems that we've always kind of figured ran the world, and then the exposure of that, and then the backlash against that, and the outrage kind of spiral that happens, there's such low trust in institutions.

And partly because of what you're saying, because they, you know, there's an exploit of nation. Yeah, and they've betrayed their mission statements and the people that rely on them. So then what if you are a mayor cut from the same cloth as like a liberal kind of like a, you know, not to compare him to Obama, but someone who like is running a hope and change type campaign and wants to then take the mantle

of an institution that is derided at this time. What a difficult. You're in an impossible situation. Because Jacob Fry really is of that political ilk. He is a hope and change progressive who, you know, Because Jacob Frye really is of that political ilk. He is a hope and change progressive who comes into this situation looking to like sort of build bridges in a bipartisan way.

And he finds himself in a situation in which his city is literally at war with itself and on the precipice of total implosion. And no matter what he does, he will be derided and criticized. He's either not progressive enough or he's way out of bounds progressive. Every measure and every move that he takes

is under the microscope of the world because all attention is focused on Minneapolis in the wake of George Floyd and the trial and everything going on there. So the pressure could not be more enormous on that individual. And what interested me about him and the reason to speak to him

was not to have an in-depth conversation about policy and his politics, but more to understand the human being who's weathering these kinds of hits, the kind of guy who has gotten into Twitter beefs with Donald Trump. And I feel, if I give him a charitable interpretation, he's really trying to do the right thing.

And you may disagree or agree with how he's trying to do the right thing. And you may disagree or agree with how he's trying to do that. But maintaining peace in a city poised to explode is a tall order. You have to set matters to rights. You gotta acknowledge the wrongs. You gotta make the appropriate changes. And you have to do all of this under the spotlight,

as I mentioned, of the world, where half the people think he's doing not enough and the other half think that he's bowing too much. So the conversation that I wanted to have with him was really about that, not politics, but how one manages the stress and pressure that he has had to shoulder and what it feels like to have to make really important, difficult,

and at times no-win decisions while the world watches. And also the fact that this guy is not for nothing, probably the most accomplished runner in elected office in America. Right, that's right. This is crazy. That was another big piece of this, right? What an unbelievable runner this guy is. This is a guy who,

in addition to being mayor of Minneapolis, is a former professional runner. He trained with Des Linden back in the day. He was repped by Saucony. He got fourth in the marathon at the 2007 Pan American Games in Rio, where he ran 2.16 for the marathon. And then in 2008, he outright won the Austin marathon.

Like he didn't win the amateur, like he won the whole thing. Right, right, right. This is the mayor of Minneapolis. He's a young guy, he's got a baby. It's kind of an extraordinary situation. So of course, when the opportunity presented itself to talk to this guy while I was in Minneapolis,

of course I'm gonna take that opportunity to try to- Did Brogan help this out? Yeah, because Brogan's friends with him and set that whole thing in motion. And I think it's important to note that, look, Jacob came to the interview in good faith like and I really appreciate him taking the time to talk to me.

But for all the reasons we just mentioned, the guy's in a pickle. Like it's not in his interest to have like an emotional, you know, vulnerable conversation with me about his life. Like he's trying to hold everything together. It's still, it's still like- It still is. What's the latest there?

Well, here we are in June, but on June 3rd, they dismantled George Floyd Square. There's an article about this in the New York Times that I can pull up. And they did it, two things about this. First of all, they didn't announce it ahead of time, just one dawn on the third. At dawn on the third, a dawn on the third,

they started dismantling the barriers. And secondly, they did it in partnership or cooperation with the Agape Movement, which is a community organization that I was able to encounter. Like I met with some of these people when I visited George Floyd Square, got to know a couple of them.

What does your podcast do? Yeah, that's the guy from the Agape movement is the dude who said, what does your podcast do? Yeah, that's the guy. He was the Agape, one of the Agape dudes. And so the Agape movement has taken some hits for cooperating with this from liberal minded folk who did not want these barriers taken down.

So it's controversial. The Agape movement is funded by the city. I think they got a couple hundred thousand dollars. So that of course, you know, caused some criticism. And if you're Jacob, like there's this balance between recognizing and acknowledging and memorializing the importance of everything that has transpired in Minneapolis,

but there's also a countervailing force and quite a few people who want the road back open and the businesses that are inside that square who wanna reopen as well. How do you make the right call? How do you do what's right? Is there a right answer to how to resolve this? And that's just one of, you know,

probably several types of issues that, you know, Mayor Frye has to deal with every single day. Crazy. So I've always said, whoever was in office in 2020 in like as an administrator, mayor, governor, president, I would like to see how many keep their jobs. It's not going to be many. It's so rough.

Yeah. The mayor job is an interesting one though, because you actually have a lot of power. You have more power as a mayor to actually do stuff and get stuff done than most elected officials. Didn't Garcetti just take an ambassador post to get out? To get out.

I don't know. I don't think he was expecting a win. Well Took it out. I don't know. I don't think he was expecting a win. Well, we got a lot more to come. So why don't we cut it there and give it now to my conversation with Mayor Jacob Fry. Well, super nice to meet you, man. I appreciate you taking time out of your busy life to sit down and I'm excited to talk to you, man.

I am too. Yeah. I mean, first of all, I'm glad that I'm not walking in your shoes right now. I can't imagine the level of stress and strain that your life delivers to you on a daily basis. It's gotta be a lot to just shoulder everything that this city throws at you.

So how do you, like, what is your routine to just maintain your equanimity throughout everything? It is heavy, there's no doubt about it. And it's both not about me, which I fully recognize. I mean, this hundred year in the making reckoning around racial justice is not about me specifically as mayor, but obviously I'm very involved as the mayor of Minneapolis. And you feel that weight every single day.

Yeah. I have a little bit of a mantra that I tell myself every morning when I wake up. The first thing I tell myself is find a way. That's always been my mantra. Find a way for whatever it is that you're trying to figure out, whatever problem you're trying to solve,

whatever form of justice or equity you're trying to accomplish, it's find a way. But then there's a few simple principles that I live by beyond that. And sometimes when you're going through the most strenuous difficulty, that's all you can do. It's first tell the truth, you know, be honest, no matter what. Second, you try to do what's right. And obviously, what is right is oftentimes up for debate. And then the last thing is you just try your hardest and you keep putting one foot in front of the other and that's all you can do.

So it's that mantra. And then of course it's running. I mean, running has always been some form of release for me and has become more of a release since I stopped doing it seriously. Yeah, I wanna talk about the running. Let's just get into that now. I can't imagine there's anybody in elected office in the US

who's a more accomplished runner than yourself. I think you have that crown, don't you? 216 marathoner, I mean, it's unbelievable. I don't know, it's possible. I feel like lately, anyway, runners have been getting more and more involved in different causes, social justice, politics, et cetera. But who knows? That was certainly my previous life. Right. Pro runner and was competing as a pro, right? All the way through law school or part of law school? Yeah, well, so I graduated college. I very soon thereafter moved out to join the Hanson's

Olympic development program with Brooks. Which is Deslin. Deslin's program. Which was Desi. Yeah, she was Desi Davila at the time. And then she married our buddy, Ryan. Yeah, it was a wonderful experience out in the Hansons. They've got this amazing program where, you know, you just get up and you start running with a big group of people

that are doing exactly the same thing. And it becomes a whole lot easier to run very high mileage because you have that kind of camaraderie associated with it. So I did that for a year and a half or so, and then went back and probably had my very best running years of my entire career while I was in law school. Right. So the Pan Am Games, was that while you were in law school? It was. That's crazy, balancing those two things at that time. Yeah. Well, for me,

it was almost a sense of relief because once I was in law school, there was another outlet for energy. There was another way of thinking. I mean, when I was out in Michigan, I was running, I was eating, I was sleeping, and that was pretty much it. And to have another concentration was actually kind of nice for me

because I wasn't entirely dependent on a successful race to get a paycheck, you know? And I think that in many respects was helpful in freeing in a way that actually led to some of my best running. But it was also monotonous because, and lonely. I mean, I'm an extrovert. I love people. I love talking to people. I'm so honored to talk to, you know, the great philosopher Rich Roll right now who happens to be in our city, which is incredible. But you spend hours and hours in the books

and studying for a law school exam. And then you spend hours and hours out doing 15 and seven double days, which is boring. Right, and were you doing that on your own or were you running with a group like a crew when you were in law school? The vast majority of it was on my own. I had a slew of buddies that I'd get out for runs with.

There was a Kenyan team that was training a bit there too that I would run occasionally with, Villanova. They had a great team well. So occasionally I'd run with a guy or two from there. Right. But no, by and large, it was on my own. Right, and went to William it was on my own. Right. And went to William & Mary on a running scholarship?

I had a, I think it was a half scholarship for most of the time, but yes, went to William & Mary and ran through college. I was probably, probably took it far too seriously almost at the time, but it was a wonderful spot as well. And grew up in DC. Grew up in Northern Virginia. I grew up in Bethesda.

There you go, just across the Potomac. What high school did you go to? Went to Oakton High School. We had a hell of a team at the time. Reston area? Yeah, very nearby Reston. Actually in Reston was Alan Webb, who was just a year and a half or so younger than I was.

And so he was a training partner through the most successful period of my running career, which was around 2007. And Alan was busy setting the American record in the mile and he was the fastest person ever. And I was training for the marathon and which was my top year back in 2007 as well. And so different events.

And he was obviously far more accomplished than I, but a good buddy anyway. Yeah, so you make the Team USA Pan American team 2007. That's where you run your PR, right? To 2016 and then you won the Austin marathon like the year following? Yep, maybe six or seven months later. I mean, the thing that I am most proud of

in my running career is that, well, let me take a step back. My whole goal since I was like a 10 year old was to run for Team USA. There is a tingle that you get when you put on the USA jersey that you just don't get when you're wearing Saucony or Brooks or some other brand. My goal was not just to represent Team USA, but also run my absolute best. And so I represented Team USA twice at the Pan Am Games where I set my personal record. And then at the Austin Marathon that I won. And after that, that was it. I got

done what I wanted to do. And I had the USA jersey, which I now brag about constantly and I hang in my office at City Hall. And now that life is certainly a past history, but I love talking about it still. Yeah, of course. Well, running, but running still maintains a huge place in your life. It is. You're pretty trim.

So you're getting out there a little bit at least. I think I'd be trim no matter what, it's just kind of the physique or my biology. But I mean, there's something so simplistic and beautiful about running that I still really love. And it's this direct correlation between hard work and success. That's why I originally fell in love with the sport.

You know, if you work harder and the guy that's standing next to you on the starting line you're probably gonna win. And that's also kind of what incentivized me to get into politics was there is a lack of that direct correlation in society. If I work hard, there perhaps might be more of a direct correlation with success than somebody else,

depending on where they grew up or who their parents were, the socioeconomic background, race, all those things obviously contribute to the likelihood of whether you see that direct correlation or not. And that's part of why. Running is, I mean, certainly there's plenty of variables that go into success, but it's relatively binary in terms of that with the work in kind of result out

aspect of it. And I'm interested in exploring like how that spills into how you think about policymaking and leading a city, but at the same time, you're contending with, you know, a multitude of variables, most of which you have no control over. So the kind of work in result out thing starts to break down a little bit in terms of, you know, how you, you terms of how you kind of make hay with your job.

It does, but there are also external factors associated with running as well. I mean, people get busted up and hurt. Performance is not necessarily dependent entirely on your desire to succeed, but your physical condition at the time. Sometimes you just have an off day, but your physical condition at the time, sometimes you just have an off day, you know?

But I mean, what I continue to hold pride in, I often look back on is, you know, those moments when things were clicking beautifully and running. And I mean, those are some of the best days of my entire life. I mean, I am so lucky in that the best run that I had, race, maintenance run, workout, the best run in my entire life happened to be my most important one,

which was at the Pan Am Games. I mean, it was one of those days where I was wearing USA and so I was on top of the world. I felt so good. And I remember being about halfway into the race and I was way back, but where I was certainly predicted to be, I was one of perhaps the last individuals

that got the entrant. And then you start to pass one after another, after another. And then, you know, the oxygen just starts falling into your lungs. Your muscles are itching to run faster. And, and I remember thinking to myself, like, you know, this couldn't get any better. I've never felt so good in my entire life. And then it felt, then it started raining, uh, which was a huge advantage for me. I thought, uh, one, cause I love running in the rain, but two, I sweat like none other when I'm running. And,

and so, uh, my shoes get really heavy. And so I figured this was the rain, but two, I sweat like none other when I'm running. And so my shoes get really heavy. So I figured this was the great evener because everybody else's shoes would be heavy too. And I thought, you know, this is just, everything was coming together at that moment. Yeah, those rare moments where everything just kind of comes together in a perfect storm. Yeah.

So yeah, you did the thing, man. Did the thing, called it a day, moved on to the next thing. What's interesting, I think even more broadly about the relationship between kind of running and what you do now is that fundamentally you're an endurance athlete and Minneapolis is in an endurance event right now.

And what you've learned as an endurance athlete is it's just, it's about like the consistency, the persistence, the just showing up no matter what, it's like day in, day out, just keep showing up, keep showing up, keep showing up, sometimes on a wing and a prayer, but you always know that if you're doing that, you're taking out the best insurance policy

to get the outcome that you're seeking to get, right? And so you're kind of, you know, mind, body, and spirit trained for that type of rigor. Yeah. Does that like resonate with how you think about it? Absolutely it does. I mean, the way I think about it is, especially right now, you know, this last year has been like an ongoing high mileage phase. Mm-hmm. When you creep up- 100 mile weeks every week. 100, 150 mile weeks every week, you're creeping into that high mileage phase

and you're exhausted. Your body is sometimes depressed emotionally. Sometimes it's hard as well. And the whole concept is that you put your body through hell, you adapt to that hell, And the whole concept is that you put your body through hell, you adapt to that hell, then you drop the mileage and suddenly you feel like a million bucks.

And so, no, it's been, but during- No taper in sight for you at the moment. And that's been one of the harder parts is, nobody can operate in crisis mode for months on end. Uh, and our city enterprise has done that for about a year now. Um, you know, you, you think, I remember, I remember the beginning of COVID-19. Um, I had, and this is kind of a crazy story. Um, I had, and this is kind of a crazy story. Everything kind of fell apart very quickly.

It became clear how horrible the pandemic was going to be. It became clear that it was gonna lead to a pretty significant economic downturn. It became clear that people were gonna get sick and tragically people were gonna die. And so we very quickly had to sign an emergency declaration. And so I had to sign this declaration which would give me unilateral authority around issues to act quickly in the interest of the health

and safety of our community. Now, at that moment, when I was signing the emergency declaration with one hand, in the other hand, I was FaceTiming with the ultrasound of my future daughter. Right. And to have the most, what I thought would be probably the most important thing in my professional life in one hand,

this emergency declaration, this pen. And on the other hand, the most important thing in my entire life in the hand, this emergency declaration is pen. And on the other hand, the most important thing in my entire life in the other, it was surreal. And I thought that that was the big test. And then George Floyd was killed. And this global reckoning around racial justice and everything else, the economic downturn,

budget shortfalls, everything else that our city has experienced. Right. And then you get kind of foisted into the national spotlight and conversation and suddenly there's a white hot light beaming down on you and every move that you make. And my sense is that no matter what you do, it's met with, you know, all kinds of, you know, applause and derision, but no matter what it is- Mainly derision. There's gonna be a lot of people who are unhappy with it, right?

So you're dealing with COVID, you're dealing with George Floyd, racial, you know, all the racial issues that have, you know, monopolized the conversation around Minneapolis. You've got a baby who's still now, not even a year old, right? All of these things going on. Like, I mean, my head would explode.

And now you're gonna, you sure you wanna run for reelection? You wanna do this again? Well, it's funny. The topic of reelection was a much longer one, certainly with my wife than it normally is. Normally when you decide that you wanna be a candidate for office,

it's this exciting and momentous occasion. It's all right, what's the big vision and what's the coalition we're gonna build and how are we gonna get there? And it's kind of egotistical in some ways. And this time it was far more reflective. It was far more personal in some ways because there have been times

when this has not been fun to put it lightly. It's been tough. It's been hard on my family. It's been hard on my wife. Frida has no idea. Frida's my daughter. She has no idea what's going on. She's thrilled all the time. But it takes on a new level of difficulty at some time.

But it came back to that. I just feel this very deep seated responsibility, you know, to get the city through this, to set an example through which the rest of the country, the rest of the world even can follow in terms of what we are willing and able to do around racial justice, what we're willing and able to do around housing

and police reform and deep structural change there. And it's hard, it's difficult. All these topics are controversial and you know, there's no easy answers to any of this stuff. Yeah, it's, you know, it's a platform. I mean, you campaigned on affordable housing, you campaigned on police community relations, on environmental reform, environmental justice,

all of these things. And then suddenly these do become so, what's the right word, you know, prominent or in your face in a way that you could have never imagined, right? It's like, okay, well, these are the issues you wanna grapple with, like, here you go. That's very real.

And, you know, we spent two years worth of work seeing some unprecedented progress. I mean, we invested more money on a per capita basis than almost any city in the entire country in affordable housing. We got rid of single family exclusive zoning, which was, to say the least, very controversial. And we were the first city in the country to do that. There was a number of changes that we instituted that yeah, we're really proud of. And this last year has been a year of unprecedented difficulty,

unprecedented trauma and crisis. And I mean, I feel like too many people have used the word unprecedented in this last year. So it's almost a little bit cliche, but that's just the truth. During these difficult times. Yeah, yeah, every day I say stuff like that. And it's both, it bit cliche, but that's just the truth. During these difficult times. Yeah, yeah, every day I say stuff like that. And it's both, it feels cliche at times,

but my goodness, it is also true. What do you see, like how, what is the vision that you hold? Like how, what is the path forward from your perspective to get to the other side of this and create the level of parody that people would like to see and, you know, hopefully, you know, reckon with the racial issues in a manner that,

you know, sets, these things aren't going to be solved obviously anytime soon, but sets the city in a trajectory like that is moving in the right positive direction. You first always need a level of acknowledgement that hasn't been there before. And I think we are actually making some substantial progress there. Acknowledging that this was not just about the nine plus minutes of horror

that we saw in the form of the video of George Floyd's killing. This is about 400 years worth of very intentional mistreatment. This is about intentional segregation, restrictive covenants that run with the land, Jim Crow, all of the other horrible and very intentional policies that have been inflicted at times.

And I think the goal right now beyond acknowledgement is to make sure that the precision of our solutions match the precision of the harm that was initially inflicted. And that's always where the rubber meets the road, right? I mean, because that's where people start to push back because you're talking about, all right, well, here's specifically what we're gonna do. Right.

But these are tough conversations that are definitely worth having. And I'm thankful that we are. Yeah. I mean, the wound is deep and you can't expedite that healing. Like the wound has to be exposed to oxygen, right? That's right.

And that feels like the phase that the city is in right now. And the nation, frankly, I mean, it is weird to be here and then you flip on CNN or whatever, and it's like Minneapolis all day long, like wherever you go. And that's one of the frustrating parts in a sense,

because the narrative that you always hear, you've heard over the last year is that, Minneapolis is a city on edge. Minneapolis is a city on edge. Minneapolis is a city on edge. I hear that all the time. And I won't disagree with that. There is truth there, but we're also so much beyond that.

Long after that red light of the cable media is gone, long after folks decide that they're gonna not be focusing on Minneapolis anymore for whatever reason. I mean, we're still gonna be here in the city that we really love. And it's an extraordinary place, you know? And, you know, we are this trial. We are all of these shortcomings

and issues that certainly we need to correct and we are also so much more than that at the same time uh and it's that nuance that always doesn't get caught you know yeah we're flawed yes um and i think the truth is that, you know, is that that flawed nature is certainly not unique to Minneapolis. We are there, but we are confronting it, hopefully very directly. Yeah, well, truth lives in nuance. And unfortunately, you know, media narratives

are driven by kind of dualistic perspectives on these things. And I was reminded of my own blind spots with all of this. We went to, I said this on a podcast the other day, but we went to visit George Floyd Square. And after seeing it on television a thousand times, I thought I had an idea of what it would be and what to expect.

And it was very different in every material way than everything I imagined it to be. From the neighborhood to the setting, to the vibe, to the people, everything about it was nothing like I had imagined it. And I'd seen it a million times on television. And the reminder being that, just when you think you have a grip on something,

you really don't until you experience it boots on the ground. And as being the leader of this city and your responsibility to kind of, you know, shepherd a real narrative about the actuality of the events that have transpired and will transpire, what do you think, like, where is the blind spot that the average person living wherever doesn't see

or doesn't get about the truth of the experience of living here? The truth, as you mentioned, is always nuanced. I mean, you mentioned George Floyd Square. George Floyd Square is and has been both this beautiful place of racial justice and healing, a critical point where communities can gather and reflect. And it's also true that there are times

that that square in that area have not been safe. To ignore either one of those realities would be to miss the honest truth. And it is true that communities around there, much of them black and brown communities, have suffered in some form due to some upticks in violence. There's never unanimity of opinion. There certainly is not now.

But I think in that case, I mean, it's almost, George Floyd Square is emblematic of so many other things that are happening right now. Uh, but I think in that case, I mean, it's almost what George Floyd squares is emblematic of so many other things that are happening right now. Um, in that you have these dualities of both of which are true, you know, wonderful place for racial justice and reckoning and instances when it's, it's not safe due to other outside factors. Policing. We need deep structural change to how our police department operates. We need safety beyond policing because not every 911 call needs a response from an officer with a gun.

And we need police. from an officer with a gun and we need police. There are horrible situations that we make officers respond to that nobody else wants to, nor can they. And both of those things are true. I think the police reform conversation is the best kind of example to explore how truth lives in nuance

because it's very easy to lapse into this notion that with respect to Minneapolis, at least, it's either defund the police, which means a million different things to a million different people, but is often characterized as complete abolition of the police or your pro-militarization of the police. It's an either or situation. And the longer that I'm here or your pro-militarization of the police.

It's an either or situation. And the longer that I'm here and the more people that I talk to and the deeper I kind of educate myself about this issue, it doesn't seem like there's that much difference between most of the voices who have a say in policymaking. It seems that everyone agrees that the police need deep reform. Now there's quibbling over what that might look like or how that gets implemented. But aside from an extreme, extreme

fringe, there's nobody who's really saying we need to abolish the police department completely, at least as far as I'm aware. I don't know, you're shaking your head. Maybe you can tell me more about that. And it's really a conversation about how to best accomplish this goal that there seems to be somewhat of a consensus on. Is that wrong or what do you think? No, I think for the most part, you're right. Following some of those most tumultuous times

after George Floyd was killed, there were definitely people that were calling for getting rid of the police. Sure, sure. Whether you wanna say- Can we talk about the video? Yeah, let's talk about the video, yeah. Yeah, I don't know if I'm ever gonna live that one down.

I mean, a lot of people probably who are listening probably saw it, but correct me if I'm wrong, it was in the midst of a protest. You were kind of ushered out of your house and you joined this procession into downtown and in front of a large number of people, a woman, I forget her name, sort of publicly asked you point blank

in yes or no fashion, if you were in favor of defunding the police. And you said that if she meant abolishing the police, that no, you did not support that. And that resulted in you being essentially kind of told to leave and shame on you and all that kind of stuff. And there's a video of you kind of walking

through the procession of people that a lot of people saw. And that kind of became the lightning rod moment in terms of how people were kind of contextualizing this debate. Yeah, it was tough. And let me tell you, I'm proud of that moment. I'm proud because I told the truth when it was especially hard. There was a large group, as you mentioned, of those protesting that came to my home

that demanded that I come out, that were asking for answers. I came out of my home and I was asked to come up nearby the stage area and yeah I was asked if I would be willing to commit there on the spot to defunding the police and I said very clearly that I am for deep structural change of a system that in so many cases has been racist I think we need safety beyond policing, but let me ask you, what do you mean by that, defunding police? And she said very clearly, I mean, get rid of the police. And my answer is no, because that's the truth.

Now the next day, I'll note that there was a strong majority, in fact, the vetoproof majority of the city council that came back and took the same pledge that I refused to take and have since, almost every one of them, gone back on it. I'm not gonna say that I'm gonna do something that I'm not going to follow through on. And yeah, it was tough.

I mean, it doesn't tickle to get Game of Thrones style shamed in front of the national media. But when I talk to black and brown communities in our city, when I visit the North side, which I do all the time. There's a couple of comments that I get. The first is, thank you for immediately terminating those officers and calling for charges. Right. I mean, there was unanimous praise for you getting on that like immediately, because that has not been handled in that type of fashion in other instances in other cities. that has not been handled in that type of fashion in other instances in other cities. But the second thing that I hear

from our black and brown communities is thank you for standing with our chief and not agreeing to defund and abolish the police. And again, no community is- Yeah, so what do you make of that? Well, certainly no community is a monolith, but if it's based on what I hear when I'm out on the street, if it's based on what the polling clearly says,

it's dead in line. You know, again, no community is a monolith, but what we hear loud and clear is that they want deep structural change. Do they want defunding? No. And there has been some pretty significant reformations in terms of the police, right?

With the body cams and the ending of the kind of warrior training and a couple other things along the way. You do your homework, I'm impressed. A little bit. Yeah. Yeah, we've made some major changes. We added a disciplinary matrix to our body camera policy. When I came into office,

there was about 55% compliance with our body camera policy. Now there's 95% compliance. So in other words, before 55% of the time, they were turning on their body cameras. Right, and there's like a consequence if that's not turned on. If they don't turn them on when they should, there are consequences to it. Yeah, there are penalties.

We were the first city in the entire country to ban warrior style training, both on and off duty. We overhauled our use of force policy. We banned no knock warrants for all but exigent circumstances. We've ensured that deescalation would be added and embedded in everything that our officer is doing by requirement and by the reporting structure,

how it's set up. I mean, I can go on. There's a litany of other changes that we've made, but here's the truth. Is that gonna change the culture of our police department or any police department? No, it won't. These are policy changes.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So to what extent do they fundamentally alter anything or are they just band-aids on a system that needs a deeper kind of redress? I think they're important changes that will help. But when you talk about deeper redress, let's be specific about what we're talking about. Um, you know, one of the things that I think would make a huge difference is arbitration reform.

And then I'll get a little specific on this. So we might end up just cutting this part out, but you know, this is a big deal. And I think every mayor, every chief is hindered by these laws throughout the whole country. When Chief Arradonda or I fire a police officer, it is mandated that they go through this arbitration system that sees 50% of those termination and disciplinary decisions come right back to the city. So 50% of the time when we fire somebody,

that decision is not upheld because of this mandatory arbitration. That needs to change. You know, I think especially in instances of egregious use of force or lying on a formal document, that should change. And, you know, there's also a deeper issue as well, even beyond that, which is, you know, if you are an organization that is known for being something, you know, if you're a podcast that is known for attracting cool, you know, health oriented people with a good suntan, you know? And then you go out and recruit to get additional people to watch your podcast. Who are you gonna attract? You know, that kind of thing. Similarly, if you're a police department that is known for something,

whether that's for being compassionate and service-oriented, or that's for being a bunch of racists, and you go out and recruit, who do you think you're gonna get? And so it makes it all the more important that you do this necessary work ahead of time to change both the reality and the perceptions

so that you can get the right individuals in and then the wrong individuals out. When you're faced with having to make an important decision, which you're doing constantly, and you've got all these different voices and everybody's got a perspective and a point of view and these people are donors or they're voters or they're coming with, what they're telling you comes with a block of voters and they can move that one way or the other. What is your process for getting clarity so that you can, you know, tell the truth or vote with your conscious or make the best decision? Like, is there a method to how you do that under extreme duress? Under times of extreme duress, especially when you're going through a major crisis, the truth is that you can't send out a poll to determine how every last individual is feeling. You have community partners, you have mentors and individuals within the city that you look to, that you talk to, that you get

input from. Usually I try and take multiple sides in, you know, hear different arguments and play devil's advocate wherever I can. And then you got to make a decision. And hopefully most of the time you get that decision right. Sometimes you don't. And that's the nature of being mayor. You know, I mean, it's different by the way, than when you're in like Congress. I don't vote. I don't have a vote. I'm tasked with making decisions in crisis-oriented situations. And I mean, there's an old LBJ quote that says, you know, when the burdens of the presidency get too heavy to carry, I just thank God I'm not a mayor.

We are dealing with all of the other situations that nobody wants to handle. Mayors are. I've half joked that one of the main jobs of being a mayor, especially right now in Minneapolis and other cities in the country, is to jump on all of the grenades of societal shortcomings and you still get blamed by anybody that gets hit by the shrapnel. I mean, this is like the era of the mayor, right? Like when have we been talking about city mayors as much as we've been talking about them over the last 18 months?

It's crazy and it's a unique and weird job because on some level it really is about grassroots local politics, but mayors do wield a lot of power to make swift, rapid and significant changes. And that obviously provokes the ire wield a lot of power to make swift, rapid, and significant changes. And that obviously provokes the ire of a lot of people when it doesn't swing in their direction. Yeah, they both do and they don't at the same time. I think, you know, the truth is that the things that intrigue you and excite you and you get passionate about on a very deep level, you know, that's Congress. That's the federal government in many cases.

That's, you know, health care, universal health care. And, you know, these broad sweeping rights, marriage equality, things like that. That are debated ad nauseum and move at a very glacial pace, if at all. Exactly. And you can take a vote and maybe there's a chance that in a year or two, you see the impact from it. The things that really piss you off, usually that's what mayors are dealing with. Now, in these last couple of years, mayors have been taking on more. And I think rightfully so, because there has been all of this gridlock at state and federal legislatures. And so mayors have just stepped in and said,

we're going to just do it. And we're going to take the wrath or the credit along with it. But, you know, depending on which city you're in, in many cases, mayors have all of the responsibility, but none of the authority. And in Minneapolis, we have this kind of gray system that is not a strong mayor system. We do not have the system that Chicago has or St. Paul has. We have a system that is more decentralized than that. And so, yeah, you know, you oftentimes get blamed

for things that aren't deserved. You also get credit for things that aren't deserved also. And you know, the truth is always a little bit more grayer than it's presented. What do you think like people fundamentally misunderstand the most about what your job entails? I mean, I think there's often the perception that you can wave a magic wand

and make something happen immediately. I think there's the perception that you have authority over things that you just don't have authority over. And there's also all of the other aspects that people don't see that happen behind the scenes. There's these heartfelt conversations with community members.

There are complexities that go well beyond a hashtag on Twitter or a soundbite that you'll get in a two minute news conference. And often times people don't see that. And this is, I think at least in part, a causal element of something that social media has caused over times. And there's certainly a lot of positives associated with it.

There's definitely negatives too. Yeah. I mean, as somebody who lives in the media, you're in the media constantly, I don't know that you've done any podcasts, maybe you've done a podcast or two. I did the daily. You did, oh, you did the daily, yeah.

But that's still like pretty, that's brief, right? Like I wanted to give you the opportunity in kind of a space where we can breathe, where it's like safe, where you can kind of express your perspectives without fear of it getting chopped up and mischaracterized or taken out of context. So in that- That's therapeutic.

And so thank you. Yeah, no, listen, I'm happy to do that. In that spirit, like I'm interested in, it must be frustrating for you when you see your face, you pop up in some news program and they're taking some clip or you're, you know, participating in one of those squawk box things where everyone's shouting and you have three seconds

to express your point of view. What do you think in your message gets lost in that, that you would want people to better understand? I know it's a vague question, but. You know, there have been instances when one particular event or policy has been misconstrued. For the most part, I've actually really appreciated the way that our media has handled things. You know, of course, there are issues that I'll always be pissed off about.

That's inevitable. What I see that is problematic though, is the polar extremes, you know, the very far white supremacist right, the very far anarchist left spinning narratives that just have no basis whatsoever in reality and also seem to push to dehumanize people in a big way. I am a human being. I have skills, I have flaws, I'm a human being. And every day you get up and you try to do your very best. You try to take an honest and compassionate approach.

And you know, that's all you can do. And sometimes all that gets lost depending on how, you know, those that wanna speak up, wanna, you know, whether they like it or not. Just by dint of being mayor, you become the receivership for everybody's angst and ire or whatever's bothering them or whatever problem that they're having, like you're the target for that.

And you see, I think, you see both ends of it. And I think this is probably the case for so many, probably elected officials, and I guess celebrities at times as well. You're neither as good nor are you as bad as the media or social media makes you out to be. There was a, back in 2019, I wanna say, Donald Trump came to town.

Right. I know where you're going with this, go ahead, yeah. Yeah, and Donald Trump came to town. He, we were forced to basically foot the bill I know where you're going with this, go ahead, yeah. Yeah, and Donald Trump came to town. We were forced to basically foot the bill for all of these major security expenses associated with his visit to our city. And I didn't wanna pay for those security expenses.

I certainly wouldn't want the taxpayer to have to foot the bill. And so we said directly to the campaign, this was not even publicly at this point, this is like, we just don't, we don't think it's right for us to do this. And then immediately, you know, the Republican party took it up. Donald Trump started going after us on social media and we responded. All I was, was a stupid tweet, right? I didn't do anything heroic, you know, but you're suddenly made into- That really put you in the national spotlight

in a big way, right? It was the idea was he was coming to town for a big MAGA rally. It's gonna be this huge to do. And you're like, our taxpayers need not pay for this. Here's the bill, it's $530,000. And as long as you pay it, it's all good. And that just lit him on fire, right?

It lit him on fire. He got pissed off, his whole, you know, his supporters started attacking, you know, you know, you gotta wear a bulletproof vest as mayor for a few days because of that, because you've got all these, you know, anti-Semitic, white supremacist, whatever, agitators that want to come in and scare you. Now, but in that moment, there wasn't anything spectacular about what I did. I got tons of credit and I don't know that it was necessarily even deserved, you know? Now, similarly, there have been instances where I've been in it, which has been the exact opposite. Instances that I'm proud of, but you just get

ripped apart. And so, you know, you're neither as good nor are you as bad as things seem to be in that particular moment, whatever it is. That's the truth. Yeah, then the skirmish with Trump continued, right? You got into this thing in the midst of when the George Floyd protests were starting to peak, or he went after you for being weak and you defended yourself and that's where the classic, when the shooting starts,

the shooting starts tweet happened that got flagged by Twitter. And that really set in motion his ultimate deplatforming. Like that was kind of a monumental tweet storm that went down. Yeah, I- I mean, that had to have been wild for you. It was wild.

And I actually didn't, I think I was informed of those tweets while I was in a press conference at the time, which was needless to say, one of the worst press conferences and performances that I gave largely because I was exhausted. At that point, I think we were three or four days in. And the things that Donald Trump spouts off, needless to say, are, I mean, not just irresponsible. I mean, my goodness, sometimes they were evil.

And thankfully, he doesn't have that platform at the moment anyway. What is a day in the life look like for you? Is every day different? Is there like a walk me through like how it all works? Every day is different and it depends on the time. I mean, when I first took office, we were on the verge of having the Superbowl. Just a month after I took office,

we had arguably the largest sporting event in the entire world, other than maybe the Olympics and the World Cup right here in our city. And things looked like, it was constant briefings, getting prepared for safety and security measures. It was welcoming people to town, welcoming Philadelphia Eagles fans, as much as I didn't

really care for them. Uh, it was meeting celebrities at times. And, um, I mean, that was the bizarre time in and of itself. There are days where it's just policy all day long. Um, and there are also days where you're just sprinting from one event to the next that are diametric opposites. I mean, you're going from a funeral of a firefighter who has died of cancer. And then you're wiping away tears in your eyes and heading over to do a rah-rah event celebrating Minneapolis

and some extraordinary new program or business that's coming to town. And that's the weird part. And that's where at times, it's the trying to shift gears because it feels fake sometimes. You're in this sad state at one event and you're in the car, maybe sometimes a staff, sometimes you're alone

and you have to like, as Brogan says, you gotta fake it. You know, you gotta like intentionally put on this smile that is. So that's what Brogan's been doing this whole time. Sitting over there. You gotta, you gotta, you gotta just, you gotta force off. That wasn't fake, it was force it. You're right, force it is far better than fake it.

Yeah, I should have gone with that. But as Brogan says, you force it and you do have to force it. And sometimes you start out forcing it for the first couple of minutes and then it actually becomes genuine by minute six. Yeah. But that's kind of the reality of these days.

And I mean, I try to get runs in whether they're early or late as much as possible, because that grounds me. My staff know when I have not gotten in my run. My wife certainly is aware. And you have to run every day. You gotta run, you gotta run. And I can't imagine how you, like your ability to manage that level of stress

day in day out has improved so much from that level of self care. When you run, do you have to run with a security detail or can you just go out and run? Yeah, we had a discussion about that early on and that was like definitively rejected by me. I was like, you know what, this is no. There are times when I wanna run with nobody.

There are times when I just wanna zone out, not say, not talk and just kind of be in that moment with my breath, it's meditation in a way. I'm also a very talkative and extroverted person. And one of the main things that I miss about my running career is not the races. Certainly not the hard workouts. It's the camaraderie.

It's running with the guys. So, you know, I run routinely with Brogan. I mean, that's an extroversion explosion. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Well, I mean, he's giving high fives to every other person that he sees. You actually can't get anywhere

because he has to stop on every street corner and strike up a conversation. Yeah, oh my gosh. So you're grooming Brogan to be the mayor who's gonna follow in your footsteps. Oh yeah, he's already the mayor of Deep Haven or wherever the hell you're living. Suburbia.

Yeah. Yeah, yeah, we, Yeah, suburbia. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. I was going for a run with actually a New York Times reporter the other day who was in town. Yeah, John Allegan. Yeah.

I haven't met him, but I know he's here covering everything. Sure, so do you know the story already? No. And so I had just largely ditched Brogan the night before. I was like, Hey, I'm good. Now I can't, I'm not going to run the next day with you. And I was, cause I was going to get a run with John. And I show up to pick up John, you know, outside of his hotel.

And we start on the run within half a block. He turns to me and he says, so do you know a guy named Brogan? Of course, who doesn't know Brogan? Of course, right, unbelievable. And as it turns out this like, you know, tall goofball dude in rollerblades had come up to him maybe seven months prior. Right, in pink socks and a green polka dot hat.

Yeah, struck up a conversation. That's pretty much Brogan. Brogan, the other day we're walking down the street and he strikes up a conversation with somebody. They've been talking for 10 seconds and he goes, how do you think our friendship's going? Are we getting onto the right track? Do you feel good about where this is all headed?

See, no. That's like right out of the broken playbook, right? Yeah. Anyway, yeah, man, I mean, you know, I can't imagine you being the runner that you are, not making time to run, but also understanding that there are gonna be days where that's just impossible.

Some days it is just impossible. And I mean, ideal world for me is I run five times a week, maybe four to seven, eight miles per. That's kind of like the ideal sweet spot for me. I don't need to go more than that anymore. I don't need to crank any sort of crazy fast pace out, but just getting out there and breathing and the movement. I mean, it is, I mean, it's heaven in so many respects.

Tell me this and be honest with me. What's the casual pace these days? I think it probably varies somewhat. Well, first off, you go the pace that whoever you're running with. If somebody, a person you're running with is eight and a half minutes, you go eight and a half minutes. You know, if the person you're running with

is six and a half, you turn up, juice, and you hit it. I start pretty slow, I would say, eight, eight and a half minutes a mile. It's as if I'm on my own. Right. And I usually finished the last couple of miles running pretty hard, six minutes, sometimes even faster. Yeah, that's pretty good.

Yeah. Just for people that are listening who maybe don't have a frame of reference, a 2.16 marathon is what's that that like 512 pace, something around that? Yeah, somewhere around that. And this is without the fancy shoes. Oh, right, the big, yeah. And those, I mean, so.

The vapor flies and all that. Yeah, I'm just telling people my PR is 209 because based on what I've seen. Did you follow Des's 50K world record the other day? I did, I did. I didn't watch it at the time, but I saw that she set the world record for the 50K, was the first woman under three hours, I did. I didn't watch it at the time, but I saw that she set the world record for the 50K, was the first woman under three hours, I believe.

Under three hours. And then started slugging beer out of her shoe. Right, like really consistent 547s pretty much across the board. They just keep going, 547. Well, I mean, she's a metronome that way, and she was tough. And gosh, when I was out there running with the Hansons,

she was busted up, she was injured. I think she had some sort of stress fracture. She was not any sort of like, you know, I mean, she was always talented obviously, but like she was not crushing it at the time. Interesting. But she's tough, she grinds. The harder the circumstances,

the more she's able to shine, which is why she, like that moment at the Boston Marathon was so great. It was so incredible. I mean, in my favorite moments with Des are not running, they're partying. I mean, I remember more moments of partying with her and her now husband and Brian Sell,

who was out there at the time as well, who was the blue collar runner, Olympian himself. Do you know Josh Cox then too? I've met Josh Cox. I can't say I know him really well though. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Do you still follow running and marathoning and all that pretty closely?

Yeah, I do, I do. No, I definitely stay in touch with those that are still involved in the sport. Right. I mean, it's such a beautiful sport to follow, yeah. What else is part of your routine? Are you a meditator? You know, I'm not.

I mean, I'm not a meditator in traditional form, but I guess there are probably many forms of medicated. I mean, I'm not on the ground, you know, with my legs crossed and I don't do that. I've tried it. My mind wanders too much. I know that those that are more experienced meditators would probably say that's okay.

I would get frustrated. I use breath and mantra, which always has worked for me. It's repetition of a phrase to sort of set my mind and ground myself. which always has worked for me. You know, it's repetition of a phrase to sort of set my mind and ground myself. And I mean, my wife just calls it talking to myself, but that's what I'm doing. Yeah, well, I would consider that meditation.

Yeah, that's fair. So there you go, you can say that you're a meditator. I am a meditator. I will say that next time someone asks. Where's this all going for you? I mean, do you imagine yourself being mayor here and like what's next? Do you think about the future

or what's your vision for your own career in your life? I think everybody thinks about what their future is and what it holds. I also think that my vision for my future has probably changed dramatically in the last year and a half. If you had asked me two years ago, I think I would have been pretty enthusiastic

about a longer career in politics. If you asked me right now, I feel a deep seated responsibility and I love being mayor, not withstanding everything else, I still do love this job. Do I love it on a daily basis? No, you know, I don't. But at the end of the day, there's this feeling that you can kind of work hand in hand with community

towards the betterment of people. And like, I love that. And so I love mayor, I wanna be mayor, but do I wanna do anything beyond that? Honestly, I don't know. If standing here today, I would say absolutely not. I have no interest in being in Congress for a number of reasons.

One doesn't, I mean, with the exception of recently, traditionally they haven't gotten a lot done. But also I don't wanna be flying back and forth for selfish reasons. I don't wanna be flying back and forth between DC and Minnesota. I got a family. I have a wonderful wife, Sarah.

We have a baby. I wanna be with my family rather than flying back and forth without them. On the campaign piece, I mean, typically around now is where that would kind of kick into high gear, but I suspect that the pressures of the job are making that, you know, not, that kind of goes out the window, right?

Yeah, campaigning has not, has barely happened at all over these last several months. And I expect the next several months to come. It's just such a lesser priority than keeping the city safe through this time and making sure that people are okay. And so no, 98% of my time is really devoted to that. Yeah.

And so, yeah. Well, I feel like setting aside the kind of urgency of what the city is enduring at the moment, you being the accomplished elite endurance athlete that you are and the kind of robustness of this city with respect to its parks and its bike ways and everything that it has to offer in terms of outside activity and adventure

puts you in this position to be kind of like the wellness mayor, like, because you live this lifestyle and you're in a city that's so conducive, you know, to these kinds of participation oriented endeavors, that that feels like a leadership role that suits you well. Does that resonate for you? Of course it does. Yeah.

It's like if everything was calm and there was nothing going on here, maybe you could focus on that. It now is not the moment for that, but. And used to focus on that all the time. I've got this incredible story that I got to tell you about Abdi Bile. Have you heard of this guy?

Yes. So Abdi Bile, Somali man, won the world championships for the 1500 meters. He was the best miler in the entire world back in 89, 88, 90 in that timeframe. And he went to George Mason University, which was right down the street from where I lived. And when I was like a 10 year old,

I used to take the bus over to George Mason University to try to warm up with some of these guys that were there at the time. I mean, Abdi Bile was there, Julius H. Chan was there a little after that, but Abdi was like my hero. And there was this one day where I was running alone, like 10 years old, and I see this tall, dark,

lanky figure running towards me. And as he gets closer, I realized, oh my God, it's like, it's the world champion Abdi Bile. And I thought to myself, I'll never forgive myself if I don't turn around to run with him. So I did, I turned around, I started running with him. And I was so excited for this moment that I probably quickened my pace a little bit

and I was one stepping him. And I remember he put his hand on my shoulder and he said to me, Jacob, it's not important how fast you go. And remember he put his hand on my shoulder and he said to me, Jacob, it is not important how fast you go. It is only important that you go with purpose. And at the time I thought this was like some Somali proverb or famous saying that he was just repeating,

but now 30 years later, having getting to know him, this is just how the guy talks. Now here's the crazy thing. So in that moment when I was running with him, I don't think I saw Abdi Bile in person for the next 25 years. Fast forward 25 years, I'm the mayor of Minneapolis. This is a couple of years ago. I get a message on Facebook or text or something like that.

He says, this is Abdi Bile. I'm coming out to Minneapolis and would love to get a chance to run with you as mayor. And I was like, oh, you gotta be kidding me. This is this unbelievable full circle moment. And he came out, I don't think he remembered this interaction, by the way, from 25 years prior, I was just some schmuck kid. But I ran with him along the river. And as we were going past towards one of the most

scenic areas of our entire city, he says to me, you know, I think I could live out here. And maybe I'd like to start a youth running program to help some of these youth that might otherwise go down the wrong route. And they're like, oh my God, yes, we're gonna set this up. We recruited him, got him out here, and he's now running a whole program. Oh, that's cool. For largely Somalis, some not, youth around running.

Wow. Pretty cool. Yeah, that's very cool. I was speaking to Anthony Taylor earlier, who's very much in that world of trying to provide access to outdoor spaces and outdoor activities to that community. And it's super inspiring like that work. And there's so much work to be done there,

but perhaps the most, you know, kind of gratifying thing that you could do. It's cool. It is. Yeah. So do you go out and run with them now? Every now and again, yeah, we get in a run. We do. We do.

He's just such a jolly, happy person. He's learning to cross country ski now, which I am also. Right. I did not get out once this last winter, but in general, I try to get out the door. I've never done that, but it feels like a natural shift for anybody who's an endurance runner, right? It's not.

It's not? It wasn't for me. I know that it's really hard and it just kicks your ass. Well, I never got my, it's a rhythm that you gotta get into and it's a whole motion, especially if you're doing skate ski, which is what I think is the,

that's the coolest, most beautiful motion. I mean, that's the one where you're going like this. Right. And I think for me, I'm so used to the motion of the back kick of running that the skate ski motion, it just has taken me a while to learn, not to mention, I did not grow up skiing. I didn't grow up ice skating, any of that. And so this whole concept of you are in a relatively still position while the ground is moving under you. You know what I mean?

You're sliding. That's not something that I've really been comfortable with. And so, right, there's a fluidity to it, but your parents were both professional dancers. So I feel like you should be able to figure this out. Figure it out, who knows, maybe, yeah, yeah. What was that like, two professional dancers? I mean, that's a very interesting.

Yeah, so my parents met in New York City, they danced for the Lubavitch Company in New York City and then the Netherlands Dance Theater in Holland. And they were pretty big time. My father was on the cover of like Dancer's Magazine and he hurt his back while he was in Belgium and a chiropractor fixed him up. And he was kind of towards the end of his dance career

anyway, so he decided to become a chiropractor, move back to the States. And he continues to treat some of the dance companies anyway that come through, so he still has that connection. But no, my parents were very involved in the dance world growing up. The basement was just a big mirror where they would use to-

Why did they come, why DC? I think they wanted to be in the vicinity of an urban area, but not necessarily in it. We grew up in Northern Virginia largely and I mean, I got access to the Kennedy Center there. A number of different ballets come through, I got access to the Kennedy Center there, a number of different ballets come through, access to culture and the arts

and all the things that they really valued. And most of the other, my other siblings have more of an artistic talent perhaps than I do, but yeah. Yeah, that's wild. Yeah, they did that. Now they're still around, they're good? They're doing well, yeah, they're doing well.

They're still in the Washington DC area. And what does your wife do? My wife is a, my wife, Sarah is a, she does governmental relations. She's a lobbyist for predominantly early childhood education organizations. She helps represent low-income kids at the Capitol to make sure that they're treated fairly and justly

and have the right, these organizations have the right resources. She represents the ACLU, a number of different organizations. That's cool. Well, I love this city. I'd like to come back in the summertime. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

My blood is thin these days, but the trails and the outdoor spaces here are really something special. Oh, it's incredible. I mean, no, there's nothing like Minneapolis. I love it. I didn't grow up here, but it is just an extraordinary place.

Maybe the way to kind of round this out and end it is just with some thoughts on what you would like people to better understand about this city because it's so much in the news and people are forming their own ideas based on the snippets that they're seeing. Yeah, I mean, like I said, there's always this duality. It is a truth that we have a long way to go

with respect to racial justice and reckoning. It is true that we need deep change to our police department and that we have these long-term and systemic inequities between whites and black community. It's also true that we've got this beautifully diverse city that people really love each other here deep down. And I mean, whether it's, I mean,

we're known to be the healthiest city in the entire country, depending on which one of those ridiculous surveys that you read. We've got the best park system in the entire country, routinely rated number one. And it's a beautiful and extraordinary place to live. And so much of that gets missed, especially over this last year, but my goodness, it's a beautiful and extraordinary place to live. Yeah. And you know, so much of that gets missed, especially over this last year, but my goodness, it's true.

Yeah, and reckoning with some really important big issues. Yeah, and what I'd like to see coming out all of this is, you know, yes, we will always be the city where George Floyd was killed. We can also be the city where we did something about it. We can be this hopefully example of justice and inclusion that others can follow.

So out of this really hard year, we hope to see a whole lot of progress. Well, it's good talking to you, man. It's good talking to you, Rich. It's good talking to you, Rich. Thank you, man, I appreciate it. No, thank you. Yeah, best of luck. Try to get some sleep.

That's right. Yeah, we'll make it happen. Get some runs. We'll make it happen. Take care of yourself. I do need the runs. I haven't gotten in one in, I don't know, better part of six days or five days or so.

Hopefully I'll come back and we can lace it up together. When are you leaving? Tomorrow morning. Oh yeah? Yeah. There you go. Yeah, but I'll be back if Brogan has anything to say about it. Yeah.

All right. Cool, man. Thank you. Josh, thank you guys. All right, we did it. A different kind of roll-on. Adam, how do you feel? You know what I love about roll-on? It's plug and play.

It is. And we can be free with the format. Yeah. We switched it up. We did. Do you think people liked it? Did they not like it? Leave a comment.

Let us know what you think. We'll be back to listener questions. Oh, they'll comment. They don't need your permission. I don't have to give them permission to comment? Really? They'll comment and we will read those comments. Yeah. I don't know if I'm gonna read them.

You will. All right. We'll be back in two weeks. In the meantime, give Adam a follow at Adam Skolnick. You can follow me at Rich Roll. If you want your question answered, leave us a message 424-235-4626. Visit the show notes on the episode page at richroll.com.

We'll have links up to all the articles and all the stuff that we talked about to immerse yourself in the experience that you had today. Don't forget to hit that subscribe button on YouTube, on Apple, on Spotify, all the places. We got a clips channel up on YouTube. So if you dig short chunks from the show or you wanna sample a guest before fully committing,

it's a big commitment to commit to a podcast episode. We're talking about two hours. Thank you for committing. So I appreciate the commitment, but if you're on the fence about that, you can check the clips by just searching Rich Roll Podcast Clips on YouTube and- And then maybe see a therapist

about your commitment issues. That would be advised. Yeah. I support that. That's the professional. All right, dude. I love you, Adam. Oh, I love you too, Rich.

And we will talk again soon, my friend. All right. I wanna thank everybody who helped put on the show today. Jason Camiolo for audio engineering, production, show notes and interstitial music. Blake Curtis for videoing today's show. Jessica Miranda for graphics, as well as Daniel Solis. We have Georgia Whaley for copywriting,

DK for advertiser relationships. We have Grayson Wilder taking portraits today and theme music as always by Tyler Trapper and Harry. Appreciate all you guys. Love you. See you back here in a couple of days with another amazing episode. Until then, take us out. Peace, plants, go your day. Take us out. Peace. Plants. Coyote. Coyote.

All right. Thank you.