The Rich Roll Podcast - Roll On: Creation Over Consumption

Episode Date: July 23, 2020

Welcome to another edition of Roll On—my bi-weekly deep dive into (semi) current events, topics of audience interest, and of course answers to your questions. Serving up hype-man duties is Adam Skolnick, an activist and veteran journalist perhaps best known as David Goggins' Can't Hurt Me co-author. Adam has written about adventure sports, environmental issues and civil rights for outlets such as The New York Times, Outside, ESPN, BBC, and Men’s Health. He is the author of One Breath, which chronicles the life and death of America's greatest freediver, and is currently hard at work on a novel. Today's conversation begins with a quick update on my forthcoming book Voicing Change and the subscription offering we are currently building. We then pivot to ruminations on goal setting based upon my personal experience and that of my many past guests. We talk about the latest coverage of the coronavirus, spikes across the country, the mask-authoritarianism debate, and the current constitutional crisis occurring in Portland. We honor the legacy of John Lewis, exploring his history and many accomplishments, including his pivotal role in the civil rights movement. We shoutout my friends Utkarsh Ambudkar and Darin Olien and their respective Netflix offerings: We Are Freestyle Love Supreme and Down to Earth--both mandatory quarantine viewing. We discuss the KFC-Beyond Chicken collaboration debut. And we send some love to legendary ultra runner Tommy Rivs — a beloved athlete and friend currently in the ICU (now in a coma since recording) suffering from undiagnosed COVID-like symptoms and severe respiratory distress. If you're able, please consider a donation to Tommy's GoFundMe to ameliorate medical expenses. A little goes a long way. And finally, we switch gears to answer a few questions submitted by audience members on our Facebook Group page and voicemail. How can we best ration our time between consumption and creation? What can we do to abate feelings of powerlessness and fatalism about the future of humanity and the planet? How do you maintain sanity while both working and being a parent and part-time teacher during this unique time in history? And How do you ease into running? The visually inclined can watch it all go down on YouTube. And as always, the audio version streams wild and free on Apple Podcasts and Spotify. Thank you to Patrick Dean, Bel Rumi, Joe from Pittsburgh, Bill Lawrence and Julie from Minnesota for your questions. If you want your query discussed, drop it on our Facebook Page, or better yet leave a voicemail at [phone].  I'm digging this new format. I hope you find it equal parts entertaining and informative. Peace + Plants, Rich

The Rich Roll Podcast. We're brought to you today by recovery.com. I've been in recovery for a long time. It's not hyperbolic to say that I owe everything good in my life to sobriety. And it all began with treatment and experience that I had that quite literally saved my life. And in the many years since, I've in turn helped many suffering addicts and their loved ones find treatment. And with that, I know all too well just how confusing and how overwhelming and how challenging it can be to find the right place and the right level of care, especially because, unfortunately, not all treatment resources adhere to ethical practices. It's a real problem. at recovery.com who created an online support portal designed to guide, to support, and empower

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I am taking roll call. Let's do this. Hey, everybody. Welcome to the podcast. Another edition of Roll On. Roll On Life, I guess. Our AMA Ask Me Anything formatted version of the show where me and my hype man, Adam Skolnick, journalist, activist, author, co-author of David Goggins Can't Hurt Me and Bon Vivant at Large joins me to break down, I don't know, current events a little bit and do things topical, answer listener questions, et cetera. So thanks for tuning in. Adam, how are you doing? Doing good, man. I've been Bon Vivant at home. Right.

Like the rest of us. You're getting your swim run workouts in though. I am. I've been doing a lot. I can thank you for that. I love this sport. It's pretty cool. I just got an email.

It's not cool. Did you get the email? It depends on how you define cool. Did you get the email from Otillo today that they were going to be hosting their world championship event in Sweden and now they had to pull it. Oh, I did not know that.

It's canceled for the year. And Ingadin is happening or not? I think that one is happening. That's this week. Yeah. But the world championship event is getting shelved. I'm sorry to hear that. As of now, at least.

So at the same time, we can still get out and swim run. I love it. And what I love about it is it's not quote unquote cool. I'm the only person that I see the entire time doing it. Running around the streets of Santa Monica with a pole buoy attached to your leg in a wetsuit. And I don't even wear goggles like most swimmers. I wear a mask because I'm so used to free diving.

So this low profile swim, like really a free diving mask. Do you get any weird looks? Oh yeah, you get weird looks. But I have gotten quicker. Like it's interesting when I first started training for the Catalina race, I was like, not, I I'd been running on a treadmill and now, and running on the street, like I was not very quick at all, but I have gotten quicker running longer distances during quarantine. I've definitely gotten more fit during quarantine. It's a trip. And this last weekend was the first time I actually shed the wetsuit and was just in jammers and a rash guard and a pull buoy. And it felt so much better running in that. Yeah, the water temp is good, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I remember when I did the world championship event a couple of years

ago, I got together with the local swim run crew in the days leading up to the race. And we did a workout through the streets of Stockholm. So it was me and like, I don't know, eight dudes running literally down very busy streets on a weekday in wetsuits with pull buoys and caps on and the whole thing. And swim run is such a part of the culture there that no one looked twice, like business people are walking down the sidewalk and we're running, you know, it's such a weird thing. It is weird. And then swimming in your shoes. I keep thinking like, who, who is watching me get in and my running shoes swimming, but I do love it. I mean, I have to say like, there's something about the workout that afterwards, like the combination and I've been doing kind of, uh, like a three mile run,

a 1.1 mile swim, and then like a two to three mile run on the back end. And it's, you know, it takes me like an hour and a half. And I, afterwards I feel like it's amazing how I feel. I feel better than if I just ran or if I just swam. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. It's definitely a full body experience.

Yeah, it's been fun. Well, you're looking fit. You might be the fittest I've ever seen you. Thanks, man. But you have a baby on the way, so things might shift a little bit. The dad bod is real. Yeah. The fear of the dad bod.

Yeah. So what we do here is we make a couple announcements. We're going to talk about a couple top-of-mind subjects. We're going to share some good news, some show and tell, and we're going to take a quick break and then do questions from the audience. So to kick things off- I'm excited about this, by the way, this new format. We're trying to tighten it. We're trying to, yeah, we're trying to tighten it. We'll see how it goes. I'm not exactly circumspect in how I speak, so I don't know how much I can adhere to the strictness.

Well, you just tell the pipe man to back off if he starts cracking the whip. All right. Well, it's your job to crack the whip. All right. A couple of quick announcements up top. Voicing change update. This is my new book. Very excited about it.

We're still in the process of finalizing it, but most of the heavy lifting is done. Timeless Wisdom, inspired from the Rich Roll podcast. It's going to be coming out in November. It's looking beautiful. I'm super proud of it and excited about it. I'll keep you guys up to date on exact release date, but I'm so proud of this creative expression, which was very much a team effort. A lot of really talented designers and it's been a collaboration with them and with the guests, of course. So I'm excited to be able to share my guest's wisdom in a different kind of format. So that's been going on in the background with everything else that's been going on. I've

been working on that pretty intensely. Also, if you want to have your question answered here on the podcast, you can leave it on our Facebook group. But we would actually prefer you leave us a voicemail. That way we can play the audio on air, which is really fun. We're going to do a little bit of that today. The phone number, just so you guys all have it, is 424-235-4626. And I want to thank everybody who filled out the survey that we posted on our Facebook group about this subscription idea that we're working on. It was super helpful to get everybody's input and feedback.

We're taking it to heart. And that is also something that is in motion. And I'll keep you posted on that as well. And then one final quick follow-up thing. Oh, yes. We waxed on the other day about Queer Eye and Karamo. And this is, I still can't believe this happened, but a couple of days later,

I got a DM from Karamo on Instagram. And he's like, hey man, I love the podcast. I'd love to come on. I heard you guys talking about me, which completely blew my mind. Has that ever happened before with other, with anybody else that you were kind of throwing out there on the podcast? Has to have happened before with other, with anybody else that you were kind of thrown out there on the podcast?

Has to have happened before. Maybe, I don't know. Might be the first time. Okay. I mean, I just couldn't believe that he, I think he's BSing me. I don't think he actually, somebody might've told him,

but whether he listens or not, I don't know. We'll ask him, but I got him on the schedule for August. So I have that to look forward to. It's really exciting. Assuming that that happens. What was really funny about that is that my 13-year-old daughter, who loves Queer Eye, I showed her the DM. I was like, check it out.

I'm going to get Karamo to come over. She's like, that's not him. That's a bot account. I was like, no, it's got a blue star. It's the blue check. She's like, somebody hacked his account. She just couldn't wrap her head around the idea that Karamo would have any interest whatsoever

in anything that I'm doing. So I think she might actually listen to that episode. She might. For the first time. She's not gonna believe it until he actually shows up and then she'll wonder how much I paid him or something, I guess. So we'll see.

But if you're listening, Karamo, thank you. I'm really looking forward to talking to you. It's exciting. I'm looking forward to it. I'm gonna just come and be in the audience for that one because I'm excited. I can't wait to hear them. What are we doing now?

The teachable moment? So yeah, so we're gonna start with some top of mind subjects and it starts with a teachable moment. So what do you have for us? So one thing that comes up a lot and I get a lot of questions around this, is how to set and achieve a goal. So I wanted to just spend a couple minutes speaking broadly about my perspective on that. I think it's a nuanced thing. I do think it's really important to have a goal, but I don't think that it's crucial that you obsess about that

goal. And what I mean by that is we have to have something to look forward to that then allows you to create structures that move you in a specific direction. Like you can't score if you don't know where the goal line is, right? So you have to establish what you're working towards and that brings everything else into focus. A perfect example of this is I dithered away most of the quarantine not working on this book because there was no deadline because we're self-publishing it. It just seemed like this ephemeral thing and I could finish it whenever I felt like it. And what that meant is basically I got nothing done on it for like a year. When we finally established, look, it's got to get done by this time,

and that timeframe seemed almost impossible to achieve, then I got my butt in gear and I created a plan and I worked towards it and accomplished it. For me, that's what it took. Maybe that's not the way it is for everybody, but I do think that there is something magical about setting a date on the calendar where you want to have accomplished a certain thing. So not just the goal of write the book,

but actually have a deadline imposed, like an external deadline. The goal in this case was complete this manuscript by this date. So the deadline creates structures around achievement of the goal. But then I kind of forget about the goal itself. And I become very focused on the tasks that have to be completed every single day. So I break out a calendar, one of those big desktop calendars. And I try to figure out what has to happen every single day in order for this to become real. And then my focus is just on what needs to happen that day.

And I forget about the big goal and I forget about even what has to happen tomorrow. Then it becomes about process because I really think that unless you can fall in love with process and immerse yourself in process, that the goal doesn't really matter. And I should say also foundational to this is that whatever goal you set for yourself should be the right goal. I think just picking any random goal is not great. Like that goes into a longer conversation about the inner work required to set the appropriate goal for yourself and understanding the why behind it. You need clarity on the why. Why is this goal important to you? What is it going to do for your life? Once you have that sorted out, you set the goal and then you create all the tasks that have to happen on the specific days leading up to that. And you can create little stepping stone goals along the way that you can celebrate when you achieve them because that keeps you invested.

It keeps you excited. It keeps you intrigued by this journey. I think it's good to reward yourself and take those moments periodically to celebrate the small wins because big goals are achieved by tiny little wins every single day. So I think that's super important. I do a terrible job at that. I don't really give myself space to celebrate anything like that. You should, you should.

I think it feels indulgent to do that. But I think what that does is it makes me feel more emotionally invested in the process. And again, I can't emphasize this enough. It is about process. And there's something about once you've initiated that process and you're working, you're moving forward and you're getting those little wins every single day that creates momentum. And there's something really magical about momentum.

I just know for me personally, when I have momentum, then I become this moving object that's very difficult to stop. And I don't know what it is about that psychologically or neurochemically, but for me, it works. Once I've established momentum, then other things feel like a distraction and I'm much more invested in the process itself. I would say in addition to that, that it's important to create accountability for yourself.

You can be accountable to yourself, but I think it it's important to create accountability for yourself. You can be accountable to yourself, but I think it's also important to be accountable to externalities, other people who will help keep you on track. I think you need to be selective about who those people are. You want people who are on your page and are going to celebrate you and are also encouraging you towards the achievement of this goal. You don't want to be accountable to people who don't believe in you or think that you're wasting your time. So who you pick to be your accountability partner, I think is really important. That person should also be somebody who's not afraid to call you out when you're missing the mark. You know,

this is something that you see all the time with fitness goals. You do it with somebody else or with a small team or a group of people. You're more likely to get up at 5 o'clock in the morning and show up for that group run or that November project workout because you know your friends are there waiting for you and they're going to notice if you don't show up. So it's the positive accountability, the people who are going to say, keep going, you're doing great, and the negative accountability of people who are going to hold you to account if you don't show up or you start to slack. Yeah. And there's something specifically about writing books too, that the process kind of takes over your brain in a weird way. I mean, it's for me. Well, it's so all encompassing. Yeah. It's like a tunnel that you can't get out of and the momentum becomes just charging through

it. And it can become distracting. You can get like lost in the tunnel. But for me, when I'm working on something, then at any time of day, ideas can pop in to improve whatever that piece of writing is that I'm working on, especially if it's a book. But then those breaks, whether it's going out for a swim run workout

or taking a walk or whatever it is, are important to then gain perspective. Because if you don't do that, right, that's where the idea pops in or the thing you didn't think of when you're so mired in the details, you know, you have to provide space for that. The problem solving. Yeah. Yeah. And then if you miss like a daily goal, accountability wise, but you still have the bigger goal on the calendar, do you have advice not to get too down on yourself or how do you, like if you- You start to fall off? Yeah. If you start to fall off, how do you refocus?

Well, I think you then recalibrate. You break out the calendar and figure out, all right, so I'm behind what's going to have to happen for me to achieve this by this date. You either change the date or you create a different structure to which you're more likely to adhere. I think you have to do an inventory and say, why is it that I fell off or couldn't maintain this daily routine? Maybe I was overly optimistic about what I could achieve in a certain day. Make sure that whatever you establish as your daily practice is manageable and fits within the construct of your busy life. If you, you know, overcast that, then you're setting yourself up for failure. So I think it's important that the things you have to do on a

daily basis are very manageable because the truth is in order to achieve big goals, you don't have to do that much in a single day as long as you're doing it consistently. It's the 1% rule. Like there's a compound interest that occurs. Like if you're showing up for a half an hour every day to do something, if you do that every day for a year or 18 months or two years or 10 years,

the difference is astronomical. It's not just an additive thing. It's an exponential benefit that you reap from doing that. So again, it's all back to the now, the day. And it's related to principles of 12-step, which is, you know, it's just about the moment. Like, what are you doing today? Like in sobriety, it's like, make sure your head hits the pillow sober. That's all you got to worry about. You don't have to worry about tomorrow. With respect to achieving a goal, it's like, okay, here are the things I have to do today. And I don't have to worry about the things I have to do tomorrow or that big intimidating goal that's looming out in the surface that just seems

impossible. And there's a liberation that comes from like, all of a sudden, once you have it mapped out and you know, it's about the little bricks to build the big structure, there's a little, you know, when you're just sitting there looking at the big structure, this big design that you have in your brain and you're like, wow, how am I going to ever do that? And you just focused on that. It does become intimidating. But once you even start laying one brick. Yeah, you can become paralyzed. But once you lay one brick, you realize, wait a second, I can do this.

You know, it's just everything becomes manageable. Yeah, and every brick that you lay creates additional confidence in your ability to achieve the thing that feels impossible. And a perfect example of that was me training for Ultraman. Like, you know, I wasn't, you't, contrary to what people might suspect or imagine, I wasn't some crazy gifted endurance athlete. I worked really hard to achieve my ultra endurance goals. And when I began training for this race that just seemed like an absolute impossibility, it was hard for me to wrap my brain around the idea that one day I would get to a place where on the third day of this ultra endurance

double Ironman race that I'd be able to run 52 miles. And it was just brick by brick by brick over an extended period of time, you know, leading up to doing a 40 mile training run, which was like the craziest thing I could ever imagine doing, six months earlier, that would have seemed impossible. And it's literally just by doing little things every single day that are moving you forward. Beautiful. I love it. There's a couple of things we want to talk about from the news. First is Congressman John Lewis's passing. Just give a little bit of a recap. John Lewis was the child of a sharecropper, ended up going to Nashville for college, where he got involved in desegregation of lunch counters. And that Nashville crew ended

up being really foundational and formative of the student movement within the civil rights movement. He became a freedom rider, one of the original 13 freedom riders that rode Greyhound buses through the South to desegregate the national transportation system. He ended up the head of the Student Nonviolent Coordinating Committee, which is basically the student arm affiliated with Martin Luther King's Southern Christian Leadership Conference, which was his organization. He was the youngest speaker of March on Washington. He led the Selma March. He got beat. And he's been arrested like 40 times. Yeah, something like that.

And a congressman for over 30 years. I mean, the man was a giant. Yeah, he was a giant. He was the conscience of Congress. And what a beautiful expression of life. Like somebody, when I think about him, I think about somebody who lived their life in strict accordance with their values and never really wavered, even when, you know, basically culture and society was up against him. He had the fortitude and the sense of self to never basically allow himself to be swayed from what he believed in. And that strength, that center of gravity that he was able to hold for so many years is so powerful and why he's so

revered. He will certainly be missed. And it's interesting that he's lived most incarnations of this civil rights movement. I mean, instrumental in the Civil Rights Act getting passed all the way up through the recent protests at the very end of his life. He let us sit in in 2016 in Congress, that floor of the House of Representatives to try to force the Republicans to move on gun control issues. Yeah.

Yeah, so he was protesting all the way through. Yeah. You know, I aspire to that level of advocacy and strength. Yeah. Grayson Schaefer, who I know from my outside magazine, he used to be an editor there. He posted something on Instagram, just thinking about the amount of courage it takes to march into the teeth of

an attack of, you know, it was, it was vigilantes and cops on the bridge in Selma, the Edmund Pettus bridge. And to lead that group going in there unarmed, ready to get beat, knowing you could die. Knowing, yeah, knowing that, you know,

it was a very perilous situation. And always, you know, his whole thing was nonviolence from the beginning. Yeah, and learning those Gandhian techniques. Yeah. And to understand that, like I take away from like reading about him recently, it's just like the incubator that was Nashville. You don't think of Nashville as an incubator for the civil rights movement, but it really was because it wasn't just John Lewis.

Other people came out of that and the entire student arm of the civil rights movement came out of the people that were working together in Nashville. Pretty interesting. Yeah. He was beloved on both sides of the aisle. He was. And he will be missed. Obama wrote a beautiful piece about him on Medium and also the New York Times wrote an extended obit

that is worth your attention. And I can link those up in the show notes. Cool. So then obviously the big issue here this last couple of weeks has been the reemergence of a virulent COVID-19 in the United States of America and all that that has wrought. come out, stand out for me. And one that I wanted to talk to you about and get your take on was this idea of masks or anti-authoritarianism and the American love of freedom and how that's being reflected right now in two very different takes on things. One is the anti-mask crowd, people who don't want to wear masks see the orders of mask ordinances around cities and states

as an example of authoritarianism. And then in Portland right now, there are extended Black Lives Matter protests. And the city has been dealing with that for ever since George Floyd died. And more recently, the federal government has sent in customs and border patrol agents that are basically jackboots on the ground that are taking people off the street. Even people who aren't at the protests have claimed to be arrested and in blacked out cars by unidentified federal agents and then turned up, you know, they're in federal court. So in a way that feels very authoritarian-ist to a lot of people, especially those protesters. And you have kind of those two things juxtaposed. On the mask front, I was reading a great article

in the Salt Lake Tribune by Courtney Tanner, and it was about how in the conservative counties, they don't want their children to have to wear masks. Mothers are spitting in masks at county council meetings. And then you go to Huntington Beach, California, where the guys, Chad and JT. What's their YouTube channel, those guys? Chad goes deep. And they have the amazing, these guys are hilarious and they turn up

at like city council meetings all the time and troll the city council. In that video, they're going around trying to give away free masks. Trying to give away free masks. People are getting super angry at them. Exactly. And it's the same thing that's happening in Provo, Utah. So it's not just happening.

It's not fringe really, these reactions to masks. It's so interesting. I think what I find fascinating about this is the different lenses through which people perceive authoritarianism. On the one hand, you have the anti-mask crowd who are rallying against this edict that we wear masks as an infringement on their liberties. These federal troops, essentially, this militarized police force that's patrolling the streets of Portland in uniforms that don't have names and don't necessarily designate their authority and unmarked vehicles and vans, et cetera, rounding people up, arresting people. And there's a certain contingent of people who I would suspect that the people who are against wearing masks don't have such a big problem with that. And the question then becomes- And vice versa. Yeah, and vice versa, right? So, yeah, the people, exactly. So, the question then becomes,

what is truly authoritarian? What is the real risk here? Where are we seeing inroads on our democratic ideals in living in a truly liberty-oriented democratic society, right? To me, you know, and I have to, like, is this my cognitive bias? Like, to me, you know, I don't have a problem wearing a mask. It's a mild, I don't like wearing a mask. It's a mild inconvenience. But to the extent that there is any evidence whatsoever that it might be helpful or protective for other people to keep them from getting sick, I'm happy to do it. I'm happy to do it. Against the wishes of certain state governors and mayors and local politicians patrolling streets and arresting people, seemingly – I don't know. I'm not – I haven't borne witness to any of this, but I read that Esquire article about this. That's more deeply concerning to me and feels like a greater threat to our liberty and far more authoritarian than this idea like, hey, let's wear masks and look out for each other. Yeah. I talked to somebody who was at the protest in Portland on Friday night,

and it was similar to what we had here where the police kind of did escalate the tension as opposed to try to deescalate it. But they weren't police. If you ask them who they are, will they identify themselves? I think that that has started to trickle out. It's really hard to know exactly what's happening because when you have these kinds of really tense situations, nobody is an objective observer, you know? So it's hard to know exactly what's happening and what is mistakes being made that are legitimate infringements on civil liberty and what is like they're doing it on purpose. Like, you know, where is that line? It's so gray.

But we do know the mayor of Portland has asked for the federal agents to leave. We do know that. And, you know, there was this line from the Salt Lake coverage. This was in Provo. And one of the leaders, a Republican who sits on the county council in Provo, and one of the leaders, a Republican who sits on the county council in Provo said, I don't like government mandates. And he's on the county council. He's, I don't like government mandates. And that's true, right?

Like, so a lot of us don't like it. So the question is like, what is it in the American soul that makes us this lover of liberty, but maybe to our own detriment, to the point that we don't want to be told what to do no matter what. But in this case, in terms of the masks, people are doing it, and it could really come back at them in the form of a virus that could kill them. Like, what is that? And it's already kind of made us nationality non grata all over the world. We're down to about 28 countries. We can go visa free. Used to be, we can go almost anywhere with

the American passport. That passport has been devalued. Right. So there's a, there's a stricture on our liberty right there, our inability to travel globally. Yeah. It's so fascinating how vociferous and angry people are, certain people are when asked to wear a mask. It is funny. And you see that in that comedic video with those guys. They're basically like, hey, do you want a free mask? And people are flipping them a bird and telling them to fuck off. Yes.

And getting really angry. It's not a mask, it's a muzzle. So why is it making people so angry, I think is one question. Like what is that rage all about? And that's something we talked about a couple weeks ago, right? That, like, repressed rage that's just beneath the surface that I think has a lot to do with, you know, people feeling like they don't have as much agency in their lives as they feel like they deserve. And that's a longer thing that we went into before. But juxtaposing that onto what we're seeing in Portland and then contextualizing it with this

argument around free speech, like where is the speech being impinged? Like if you're unable to protest because you're going to get arrested, even if you're doing it legally, that seems like a greater repercussion and inroad on free speech than being told to wear a mask. Well, they relate, right? Why is, and how and why did wearing a mask become so politicized? Well, that I think takes us back to the QAnon and all that, all the YouTube coverage and the negativity around this, the people who think the pandemic is a hoax, which you did hear in that comedic video in Huntington Beach. But you also hear it in the council rooms and in the protest lines in Salt Lake City and Provo that people don't believe.

They don't believe in the virus. So there's this idea that we want freedom to the point of our own detriment, right? There's something about that's very American about that, that we want freedom so badly it's to our own detriment. And our friend Dan Buettner studied this when he did Blue Zones of Happiness. Like where does the paradox of choice kind of tip against you

when you have so much individual freedom that it actually works to reduce your happiness? So the example that Dan cites is Singapore, which is basically an authoritarian rule. Yeah, authoritarian. And also a place where- Unapologetically. Yeah, basically where for certain seemingly minor offenses,

you can get caned and the repercussions are very severe. Yes. And yet the happiness quotient there seems to be very high. Yeah. Which is super interesting. Some of that's basic needs are taken care of versus freedom. So here we lust after freedom, but we don't do a great job of taking care of people's basic needs. You know, we don't have the education system has suffered.

We could go all the way through the list, you know, so it's interesting. It's just something to think about. Like with the on an individual level, what do you think about that? Like, for you, you kind of create your own discipline around sobriety around being plant based, all of those things. And you could look at that as I'm not allowing myself this or that. But what has come with, is there a freedom in that? Or is there a freedom within a structure that we should be aspiring to instead of all freedoms all the time? Yeah, I think that's a really good question. I think that if you look at any creative expression, some of the most beautiful works of art come out of restriction, right? Like the independent movie where they had no money and no time and yet created this amazing work of art that stands

the test of time. Had they had a hundred million dollars to do it and as much time as they wanted, that doesn't necessarily mean that it would be of more value or even better, right? You hear this time and time again with artists, like because there were restrictions placed upon them that forced a level of creativity, that they were forced to tap into something that they didn't know that they had, right? And that brought greater expression to whatever it is that they were trying to say.

You know, you could say the same thing, like to my own personal experience, okay, I know drugs and alcohol. I only eat plant-based foods. I've removed a lot of things from my life. So I have restricted choice in certain regards. Doesn't that mean that I'm less happy or that I don't enjoy my life? And my answer is that it's quite the contrary.

It's the opposite. Through that restriction, I have created greater freedoms for myself. And there's no better parallel to what's happening because if we all wear masks and we can get a handle on this virus, we can actually have our lives back. Right. And I think another thing- Less restrictions. Another thing worth noting that our mutual friend, Dave Goggins, would probably echo, is that we need to develop a greater capacity for anti-fragility. Yes. We need to be more emotionally resilient to everything that's going on.

Yes. And that comes through putting yourself through difficult situations personally, where you become adapted to being outside of your comfort zone. Extrapolating that, it means that when you are in the presence of somebody who doesn't agree with you, or perhaps you're anti-mask, but somebody wants to give you a free mask, you don't lose your shit. You don't have a fit in public. You can maintain some level of equanimity and grace and kindness with other people. But the fact that everybody is so hair-triggered by everything, when I see that, I see a lack of emotional agility. But from maybe focusing more on their own personal challenges and trying to become a better version of who they are rather than shouting at other people who are voicing some opinion that perhaps they don't agree with. You guys have to see the Chad and JT thing. Shout out Chad and JT. We'll put a link up in the show notes.

Yes. I think Casey tweeted that one out too. Oh, did he? Yeah. My thing with masks, my hair trigger is the people that wear the mask, but with their nose peeking out. Right. Which is basically like, would you walk down the street with your dick hanging out of your pants? Well, there's that meme everywhere.

Yeah. Like it's the same as doing that. Exactly. I know. I see that all the time. Like why wear pants? I see that all the time. I trust the guy. Like I remember being in Paris and seeing a guy, like just a naked guy that all the time. Like why wear pants? I see that all the time. I trust the guy, like I remember being in Paris

and seeing a guy, like just a naked guy walking down the street and he's less creepy than someone who's like half dressed. I also told Chris Howth in one of our Coaches Corner episodes, we did one at the very beginning of the pandemic. We were talking about masks and I said, the masks suffer from a branding problem.

If we just called them aerobic capacity enhancers or something like... All the arguments around like you're breathing carbon dioxide, this is making you more sick, or it's impairing your immune system, the science doesn't bear that out. It's not true. But to the extent that you may believe that it's inhibiting your oxygen intake, this is just making you a stronger human being. Your body is adapting to less oxygen, which is making you a better athlete over time. So if we just rebranded or renamed these things as athletic enhancers. Cardiovascular aid. Basically, yeah. Maybe they would have a higher adoption rate.

I don't think so. I think that there's some YouTube video out there that we're not watching. Probably. That's not part of my algorithm of suggested videos. No, the evils of masks. But, you know, listen, I think for me as a longtime travel writer

where I had this many times with American Pass passport, like where I could just breeze through without a visa to so many countries. And to see that kind of flake away is sad to me, but I do understand it. And I kind of felt like at some point that could come, that could happen. And to me, that's sad. Like it shows at one time it was the passport that can get you almost anywhere without having to go through the process of getting a visa. And now most of the places we can go without a visa are in the Caribbean. The Bahamas just banned us. We're banned from Europe. I mean, it's, it's unprecedented. Yeah. It hasn't happened before. Yeah. Yeah. Well, the incidence rates are, you know, through the roof right now, Florida, Arizona, California.

We've got real problems trying to contain this thing. And to the extent that wearing a mask might help, I'm going to wear a mask. Cool. Let's go into something, another segment. We're calling it Show and Tell, where we get to talk about things that we watched, we saw. It could be food. It could be media. Well, let's start.

I want to start with Tommy Rives. Oh, right. We should start with Tommy Rives. While we're on the subject of masks. So Tommy Rives, Tommy Rivers Poozy for those of you who don't know, is a legendary beast of all things running, endurance and ultra endurance. He's a beautiful guy and a very accomplished runner. I think his PR in the marathon is something like 218. He's won two – I believe two consecutive rock and roll marathons,

beloved in the endurance community, a legend on the trails and the road. And a guy that I met when I flew out to Utah to run the final marathon with the Iron Cowboy for his 50 Ironmans in 50 states in 50 days. And Tommy had spent quite a bit of time with the Iron Cowboy. I don't know how many days of that adventure he joined James Lawrence, but it was a lot. And so I got to run with him and talk to him and spend a little time with him. And just a beautiful guy, loving guy, smart guy.

He's got two daughters and a wife. I think he's getting his PhD. I know he's a physical therapist, but I think he's getting his PhD. I know he's a physical therapist, but I think he was in grad school. I don't know if he completed grad school or not. But anyway, the reason I bring him up is because he is in the ICU right now. I think he's been in the ICU for over three weeks, coming up on a month, with COVID-like symptoms. I'm not sure that he's been technically diagnosed with COVID. How old do you think he is? Maybe early 40s, I think. He has severe respiratory distress and he's in very

serious condition right now. And he's been posting videos on Instagram sharing what it's like to be in his condition. And this is one of the fittest human beings you're ever gonna see. You said a 218 marathon? Specimen of just the eight pack abs and just live and with the beautiful stride and just a magnificent, beautiful athlete. And like I said, a very loving guy

and he's very sick right now. So there's a GoFundMe that's been set up to allow people to help contribute to his significant medical expenses. And I just wanted to wish him well and alert people to the GoFundMe. This is a guy who's given so much to the community and really needs our help right now.

So I'm gonna link up that GoFundMe in the show notes and you can find him on Instagram at Tommy underscore Rives. Awesome. So we're thinking about you, Tommy, and his brother, Jacob, as well, who's been trying to help get the word out about this. We're with you, man. Just goes to show you. And Tommy's like, wear a mask, you know? Yeah.

Well, yeah. I mean, it could hit anyone. Yeah, well, yeah, I mean, it could hit anyone. So when you think there is, look, people with metabolic disease, people are overweight, people with cardiovascular and respiratory ailments are more susceptible to COVID than the average person. The serious aspect of COVID, yeah. And like I said,

Tommy is not officially coronavirus diagnosed. It's weird that they can't figure out what this is, but to the extent that perhaps this is COVID, this is a guy who you would think is very unlikely to be suffering to this extent from something like this. So just be aware. Get well, Tommy. So switching gears. Switching gears. Thanks for that. Sorry about that. My computer has died. That's all right. gears. Switching gears. Thanks for that. Sorry about that. My computer has died, so I need to

power it up. But let's get to Darren Olean's new show with Zac Efron, Down to Earth. So most people have probably been made aware of this by now, but my man, Darren Olean, who's been on the podcast a bunch of times, has a new show with Zac Efron on Netflix. It's called Down to Earth. It's a limited series. I think it's six episodes where these two guys traveled to really cool destinations and explore everything from regenerative agriculture to sustainable energy and everything in between. And this is really cool. It was the number one show on Netflix a couple days ago. I don't know where it is right now. It's certainly in the top five or 10 at the moment.

And it's been great to see Darren get introduced to a much more mainstream, broad audience than he was originally. And this is a guy who deserves a spotlight as much as anything. He is not only one of my best friends, but he's a wealth of knowledge on so many subjects. And this is now an opportunity for everybody in the world to experience some level of his expertise. And I think it's great. And to pair it with Zach is, you know, this is a guy who can, you know, he's so world famous that, you know, people are going to tune in just for him. And then they get to see Darren. And I just think it's really cool. So I'm really proud of them.

And there's a kind of interesting backstory to this, which is that Zach got introduced to Darren because he heard Darren on the podcast. Right. So that's what got him interested in Darren to begin with, which is super cool. So I feel like- That's awesome.

Like I helped behind the scenes. I helped these two guys get together. In fact, I was out cycling a couple of years ago, my friend, Connor Dwyer, who's been on the show before, who's really close with Zach and with Dylan Efron, Zach's brother, who I'm friends with. And they were going on and on about Darren. I was like, well, when we finish the ride, let's go over, we'll go over to his house. So I brought these guys over to Darren's house. They met him, they're like, oh, Zach,

Zach's gonna be so mad that he wasn't here. And Darren's taking them through all his super foods and his special water stuff and everything like that. And that led to those guys getting together and ultimately creating the show. So I'm going to take full credit for the show. No, I'm not at all. Without you. But I'm just really excited about it. I think it's a perfect blend of kind of entertainment and education. It's certainly oriented around a mainstream audience. I think if you were to ask

Darren, he would have preferred that it was, it struck a much more serious in-depth tone, but you know, in order for shows like this to kind of cross pollinate and reach the most number of people, they also have to be kind of light and entertaining as well. So. Well, I think I would like to ask Darren, cause I, for someone who has brought a, I mean, I'm 95% plant-based occasionally. I eat a little bit of fish, but less and less so now. But I've brought my wife, who is plant-based, April to Mongolia for a month and Argentina. And Iceland looked to be in that same score. It's not easy to be plant-based in some of these locations. I would love to hear. I think you're gonna have the guys on, right? It'd be good to have Darren answer

to that. No, I'll have Darren back on. Zach has left the country. I don't know that I'm at... I can say where he is. I know where he is because I wanted to get those guys on together. I'll get Darren back on to talk more in depth about it. That'd be an interesting thing. I'm sure there's all kinds of cool behind the scenes stories. Yeah, for sure. That'd be an interesting thing. I'm sure there's all kinds of cool behind the scenes stories. Yeah, for sure. Yeah. That'd be cool.

Awesome. And then another documentary, but not a series, but an actual feature length doc was finally released. And that was fabulous. I know you were excited about this. Did you watch it?

I did watch it. Yeah, We Are Freestyle Love Supreme. Yes. What a great movie. It's an amazing movie. Do you want to tell people the basics? So if you caught my episode a couple of days ago with Dr. Andrew Huberman, I had, for the audio version of the podcast, I had Utkarsh Ambudkar on for a brief 15, 20-minute

segment to talk about the movie. Utkarsh is a longtime friend of mine who has been on the podcast. He was on two years ago. I think it's episode 373, if I'm not mistaken. How did you meet him? I know him through Friends of Friends and he's friends with DK too. And what I love about Ukarsh

is just this amazing, I mean, I love a lot of things about him, but his story is remarkable in this incredible arc that he's had from being somebody who was very talented as a young person but also very much in his ego and lost in his addiction. That it really hamstrung his ability to move forward in his career. And it wasn't until he got sober that he's had this beautiful renaissance where now his career is exploding. But one of the part of his origin story is being part of this small group of very talented artists called Freestyle Love Supreme, of which Lin-Manuel Miranda was a founding member of, which is essentially this group of people who would get together and do these freestyle spoken word, spontaneous performances

that were very audience engaged. It started in a bookstore. Yeah, it's improv, but with a rap. Yeah, exactly. And this is the kind of creative crucible that birthed everything from In the Heights to Hamilton. Like Hamilton doesn't exist without Freestyle Love Supreme. Probably not. It all goes back to that. And this documentary is a elegant and lovely portrait of not just that story, but the love and friendship between these young men.

And they have incredible footage of them when they're all super young. Yeah, because it started between Anthony and Tommy and Wesleyan between these young men. And they have incredible footage of them when they're all super young. Yeah, because it started between Anthony and Tommy and Wesleyan. And was, did Lynn go to Wesleyan? Lynn went to Wesleyan as well. Yeah, so four guys from Wesleyan basically that became friends, but two of them were really tight

and they were freestyling together. And then Lynn joined the group and it was like, you know, it's just like a supernova. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And they, so you see these guys from the early 20s and you follow them to the Edinburgh, you know, theater festival. Yeah, the Fringe Festival. You follow them back to New York. They're like, they get the keys to a bookshop, um, a bookshop that, that, uh, became

their, their house theater, a little black box theater. Um, and you watch them. It's like 30 seats. It's like 30 seats. And then you see, you know, Lynn's arc and you see how some people kind of, I think, um, Ukarsh came, came in a couple of years later. Yeah. But when he came in, he was like, like Lynn called him nuts and bolts, the best pure rapper they had. I know, it was crazy. Lin basically is like, he's the most verbally dexterous rapper I've ever seen. Yeah, but then they trained him to like,

steer it towards improv comedy and make it lighthearted stuff versus kind of the big up yourself type rap battle where that kind of tradition that he came from. It's so interesting to see the footage, the footage itself is worth watching. So you could see this. And then,

then of course, like you said, you learn Tommy's secret to becoming a Tony, Tony winning director, latching yourself on to a MacArthur genius. Just follow Lin Manuel wherever he goes. But the movie is very clear that Tommy elevates everything that they do. Like Lynn was sure to point out that Tommy was the guy who could call him on his BS or tell him when he was missing the mark a little bit.

And the fact that those guys have stayed together through thick and thin and growing older and all the kind of permutations of life and always come back to this one thing, like the reverence that they have for this creative, this very pure creative expression, the recognition that not only do they owe it to that for all the success they've had in their life, that it's critical in keeping them fresh and creatively inspired and active. And I think the lessons in there are respecting the process. I think if there's anything, and Utkarsh pointed this out when I talked to him the other day, the movie doesn't exactly demonstrate how long all of this took. exactly demonstrate how long all of this took.

Right. Like this is going on for many, many years, you know, before Hamilton and then Freestyle Love Supreme being on Broadway and remind me to tell you the experience of seeing it in person. Yeah. But just the idea that it's friendship, it's pure love and devotion

to a very particular art form that forces you in a way that other art forms perhaps don't do as stridently to be completely present and to be in the purest expression of your personal truth. In the moment too, right? In the moment. I love when Lynn has to puke before the show. Every time. Now, even now. And, um, I mean, I think that's amazing. And like talking about Tommy, he's, he's like one of those that knows how to coach the greats, you know, that's what they say about great directors. They know

how to coach the best actors and the best of the best creative. So I think that that's not an easy skill to have. I mean, that's right. that's amazing. And Chris Jackson, who was George Washington in Hamilton, he was in this group from the beginning. He was in In the Heights. So it does show you like the last, if you can form a band of creative souls like that, you can stick together. It's incredible where that can take you.

And you saw them. I did. I remember you going, it was like last fall, right? It was in November. I was in New York and I was there to do some, I can't remember why I was there, do some podcasts and stuff like that. But I was like, I'm seeing this show. Ukarsh is like, I got you covered. I got an extra ticket for Bird, our book agent. I brought him. And I had a sense of what it was going to be, but I was not prepared for just how transcendent this experience was. Like it was magnificent. I mean, Bird was just

like the entire time. I've never been more entertained in a theatrical production in my life. Like I just was astounded at the skill of these individuals to do what they do because it's so inaccessible, like the quickness of their mind and their ability to rapidly respond to what's happening and create something so extraordinary out of whole cloth in the moment. It's just very difficult for me to wrap my head around. So it was incredible to witness it. How long did it go? I mean, I can't remember. It was like an hour and a half. And it's very audience participatory. I mean, you see in the documentary, they bring somebody up on the stage and they ask them about

their day. And then they just create an entire musical number out of this person's mundane daily experience. And it's the most hilarious thing you've ever seen. And then afterwards, we went backstage. Bird and I went backstage. And then we're standing on the stage after everyone left. And it's like, ooh, Karsh and me and those other guys. And like, Lynn's standing right there. And I was like, I'm looking at Bird, like making eye contact. I was like, how is this happening?

Like, how am I standing on a Broadway stage next to Lin-Manuel Miranda with my buddy, Uckarsh? And I think about Uckarsh's arc and how it all could have gone terribly wrong and how he pulled his life together and is now able to be in his full expression, doing what he loves. And on a Broadway stage, like, it gives me goosebumps to think about it. And it reminds me of human potential, you know, when we can become spiritually fit, what we're capable of doing. And it's never too late to actually find that redemption, right? Like if you can dedicate yourself back to the cause and to yourself and to be kind of connected to yourself in a new way and empowered way. 100%. One thing I forgot to mention when I had Ukarshan the other day is he's the guy – like if you missed my podcast and you don't know who this person is, if you watch the Oscars, you will remember he was the guy on stage who did a freestyle rap like in the middle of the show where he was talking about people in the audience.

And go back and watch that. It's pretty incredible. I think I do remember that. I do remember that. That was Zoukarsh. Okay. I do remember that. Remember that?

Yes. Amazing. I mean, if you're a fan of Hamilton, it's must see, obviously. Oh, 100%. 100%. Yeah. Cool. Here's our big show and tell moment now. must see, obviously. 100%. 100%. Yeah. Cool. Here's our big show and tell moment now.

So we have a big show and tell. Yeah. There is a new plant-based product dropping right now. Uh-huh. It's a collab between KFC. It's a collab. A KFC Beyond Meat collab. Uh-huh.

It's called Beyond Fried Chicken. And here it is. Blake, it's available in how many, like 59 restaurants in Southern California? Not every KFC. There was one in Simi Valley though. Yeah, it's interesting the ones that they chose. It's like, it's not the ones you'd think

are in the communities that you would associate with like plant-based enthusiasm. Venice and Los Feliz. No, it's like in kind of the areas where there aren't so many options, which I think is great. I think that is good. I wonder if that was part of the calculus though.

It must be. Or how they made those decisions about where to introduce it. They didn't tell me that. They did share, you know, one of them is in Redlands, which is near Loma Linda, which is a blue zone, kind of very much a vegetarian place. And there's other vegetarian fast food places in Loma Linda.

But they said it was a wheat and soy protein. So not the pea protein that you get beyond burgers. Patty, the burger is a pea protein base. So this is wheat and soy. This is wheat and soy. I'm not sure. They didn't kind of divulge if it's using the same cow gut machines that I'm guessing not.

I'm guessing it's using the same cow gut machines that from the, I'm guessing not, I'm guessing it's totally different. I know that it started in 2019 when KFC and beyond got together. And I think it was KFC approach them. But at least that's what the press agent said to me. Beyond meat is also available at Carl's jr. I believe as a burger, as a burger. Yeah.

And impossible is the fat burger place, right? Yeah. Yeah think that's right. Yeah, I know Burger King is impossible. Burger King is impossible. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Carl's Jr is beyond I think. Yes, yeah, yeah. So we pick this up and the idea was we were gonna do

a taste test, I've never tried this, but then Adam informed me that- It is being handled by the same people that handle the chicken and fried in the same fryers, which is obviously, that's not surprising. That's not ideal. So as a vegan, I'm gonna forego trying this for that reason.

A swim runner like myself, that's not looking to get on the podium. But Adam is gonna try, they look like chicken McNuggets. They do. They are. They don't look like a chicken. That definitely does not look like a chicken.

It looks like a rhombus. It looks like a hot pocket. It's a rhombus. Yeah. Oh. I can smell it, though. Mmm. Mmm.

It's probably cold at this point. Smell those. I mean, you can taste the herbs and spices. Yeah. Kernels, herbs, and spices. It's probably cold at this point. I mean, you can taste the herbs and spices. Yeah. Kernels, herbs, and spices. It's good.

It has more of, you know, a lot of times the plant-based chicken products are very rubbery. Yeah. This one has more give to the tooth. It does have more of a chicken breast kind of texture. Yeah. Chewiness. Mm-hmm. Striated.

DK, you should try one of these. Yeah. Chewiness. Striated. DK, you should try one of these. Yeah. Blake and DK. Yeah, come on in here. I'm surprised you got a camera. DK, a camera. Why? Because you guys are-

I'm going to share my opinions on this in a second. Yeah. All right, give it a go. Tell me what you think. You don't want one? It does feel like Kentucky Fried Chicken on the outside. Yeah. Yeah?

Yeah. I don't have a— It smells like Kentucky Fried Chicken, I can tell you that. My palate isn't as developed as Adam, but I would eat this. I have no problem with this. All right. Especially knowing that it's healthy. It even looks like chicken.

So here's the thing. Let's break it down. You're approving. Look, I also love Impossible Burgers, but I don't think it's the healthiest way to approach your diet. Right. So here's the thing. This is somewhat controversial, so I want to kind of be very clear about my perspective and my opinion on this. I think the fact that there's this collab between KFC and Beyond is a good thing. Just like I

support Beyond Meat's collaboration with Carl's Jr. and Impossible's collaboration with Burger King. These are improvements, iterations on a broken system. Now, these are not health foods. Even if this was not fried in the same deep fryer where they cook chicken, I might've tasted it, but this is not something that I'm going to be eating, maybe as a delicacy, like once in a very rare blue moon. That's why people go to KFC for the delicacies. Yeah. You're not going to KFC or Carl's Jr. or Burger King to eat healthy, right? They call it the caviar or fried chicken. This is fast food. These are not health foods. At the same time, I think it's a good thing that

this is happening. I think that this is a move. it's a pivot away from animal agriculture. It's a pivot towards a more plant-based world. Certainly animals' lives are going to be spared as a result of this. And this is a good thing to the extent that we can introduce plant analogs to animal foods that people like and convince them that it tastes just as good and is slightly healthier than what they were eating before is a move in the right direction. And that's a move that I celebrate. There are a lot of hardcore vegans who would say, you know, you got to boycott Burger King, you got to boycott McDonald's and all these places. They're slaughtering billions of animals every year. That's all true, but we have to celebrate the wins. And we live in a capitalist society. These gigantic conglomerates are responding to consumer demand. And to the extent that the consumers are demanding plant-based foods or plant-based

analogs to animal foods that they like, that's something we need to support, right? We need to fan the flames of positive change. And if everybody starts buying the beyond version of these Chicken McNuggets at KFC, they're going to make more of those and less chickens. KFC, Burger King, McDonald's, Carl's, these are companies that are not going away. No. Right? They're trying to adapt to the times. They're not doing this because they're trying to be amazing human beings. They're responding to consumer demand. They're not doing this because they're trying to be amazing human beings. They're responding to consumer demand. They want money. Yeah. Basically, it's a capitalist pivot because

this is where consumer demand is going. And the more consumers that demand plant-based foods, the more companies like this are going to react and respond and move in a direction that is better for everybody. Yeah, I mean, for me, I've come to embracing a plant-based, almost exclusively, I should say, plant-based lifestyle because of the cruelty of the system and because of the water pollution and the runoff that comes from it and destroys oceans. So, systeming animal agriculture. So, that's where I come from, but I also have always liked fried chicken and there's things I do like about that kind of old diet that I used to have. And so, it's nice. For me, I like having this option. One thing that troubles me a little bit from all these – because they're like tech companies, Beyond and Impossible.

And I do like them, and I buy their products, and so I'm a fan. And I should say in full disclosure that I own a couple shares of Beyond. Not that that's influencing. Not that that's any of your business. But just in full transparency. I like that. I don't, but I would. I like that. I don't, but I would. I would.

But I don't yet. But the one thing that kind of is curious is as bad as the current kind of CAFO structure and these – like the high-density raising of animals is, it didn't start that way. is, you know, it didn't start that way. And it used to be food could be one of those things that you could empower smaller businesses and a family farm. And it's obviously not that way anymore. Certainly not with chicken farming. Not with chicken farming.

So I'm not saying that this is like gonna change it, but there is something troubling about like the winner take all thing that happens from when businesses, when the siphon of money starts going to fewer and fewer straws, right? And it kind of goes up and enriches less people. It's a little anti-democratic in terms of business when a couple of winners in a space take all of the money. And so I'm not saying that that's happening yet because there are competitors in plant-based food space, but it could get there.

And so that's one thing that I think about just long term. Right. What do you think? In other words, you're saying to the extent that the impossibles and the beyonds and perhaps at some point the Memphis meats are going to basically create like an oligopy of plant-based meat analog. If it becomes bigger and bigger and like, it's not just a million people, but it's like, or, you know, I don't know how many plant-based people there are, but there's, you know, 50 million people buying all these products on a regular basis. If it's going to less and less people, then the wealth is going into fewer pockets. So, and that's kind of how we got into this current political situation that we're in now.

Yeah. I mean, thinking broadly about that, I think that is something to bear in mind. I mean, there is increasingly more and more competition. There were just a couple of these. Now there's lots of these companies that are doing this. And the technology is also rapidly evolving. And I wouldn't be surprised if a couple more companies start to make their mark in this space. I agree. And maybe there's a way to do it where it's not a factory here and a factory there. Maybe there's a way to expand it and employ people all over. Yeah. I mean, one downstream implication of this is the monocropping that you see with the pea and the soy and the wheat and all of that,

which, you know, also needs to be addressed. Quinoa did that too. You know, it's like, yeah. There's all, it's always trade-offs, right? There's no perfect solution. This is now one solution to get people who are going to KFC to maybe be like, you know what? Today for my kids, I'm going to get the Beyond Chicken Nuggets because I can't get my kid to eat anything. He eats the chicken nuggets. He's got to eat something or she, and I'm going to get him the Beyond or her the Beyond. And that's a good thing. Anything's better than chicken McNuggets. Right. And these aren't McNuggets. Sorry.

Yeah, exactly. But let's start moving in the right direction. And when we look at the biggest offenders of climate change, animal agriculture is up at the top. So to the extent that we're creating solutions that are admittedly imperfect, imperfect that are reducing our reliance on the CAFO system to produce food for wide swaths of the population, then that's something that's good. I agree. Well done, guys. It's complicated. All right, let's do win of the weeks and then we'll take a break. All right. What do you got? Win of the weeks. Well, you want to go first? Well, my buddy getting a Netflix TV show and blowing up is huge. Like his book, I think is number 10 now on Amazon, Super Life.

And his Instagram went, I think he might've had like 70,000. And I checked this morning and he's at like almost 200,000 now in a week. So it's great. He should be, you know, he should have, he should have a New York Times bestseller and he should have a million followers on Instagram because he deserves it and he's the real deal. So that's my win of the week. Well done, Darren. And you know what's cool is that the producer of that series, like the company that's involved, were Anthony Bourdain. They used to do Anthony Bourdain's show. Yeah, and it definitely – it's a tip of the hat to that genre of programming.

Yeah, no question. My win of the week is live sports coming back, which is partly why I'm wearing this hat here. Go Dodgers, go Lakers. And I've been waiting for sports. You know, not every one of our listeners here are fans of the ball sport, but I am basketball fanatic, baseball fanatic. And there is a great vlog. Casey Neistat tweeted it out and is a huge fan of it. And it's by someone who's looked up to Casey for a long time. It's a rookie from the 76ers named Matisse Theibel. And he was a four-year player at the University of Washington. He's now a rookie

on the 76ers. And he brought his camera and his particular lens to the bubble in Orlando, where all the players are. And he's got a YouTube-style show. He started this channel like a week ago, and there's like over half a million subscribers. And he is rocking it with these really interesting, well-done edits of 10-minute videos where you're really seeing kind of this surreal moment in professional sports up close and personal. He does everything. He shows you the testing.

He shows you the food. He shows you how they're spending their time. He shows you a little bit of the practice court. I think it's really cool. I saw Casey tweeted it out, you know, maybe at the very beginning, like right after maybe his first video. And he's like, this is my new favorite YouTube channel. And now I watched episode two and three today. He's got almost a million views on these videos. He's getting all this press interest. on these videos. He's getting all this press interest and it definitely owes a debt of creative inspiration from Casey. He's got some cool Casey edits in there and stuff like that.

But what I took away from it, I think they're great. Like I was fascinated to see this, but you just see the mundanity of these guys who are stuck basically in an average hotel in Orlando with not a lot to do other than go to practice and get tested, just waiting for something to happen. Like they're playing cards and they're trying to figure out like how to spend their time during the day. And you think of NBA players living this crazy lifestyle and you realize like, it's almost like they're like stuck in a dorm somewhere. Yeah. Basically. It's a trip, you know, because going in when you see the Florida numbers peaking and you worry

about people getting sick and you think about it, but like watching this actually made me feel better about the odds of them getting through the season. Oh, the precautions that they're taking are insane. Yeah. They're taking these crazy precautions. They have a lot of resources at their disposal. There's really, yes, do some people who work in the bubble go home at night and could they possibly get infected? Yes. Could that end up in a player getting infected? Theoretically, yes. But there are so many barriers in place. I feel a lot better of their opportunity of getting through it.

I also think of like, it is surreal. Like I can't imagine going through that for like two or three months. Like the 76ers are a team that's a contender. They could be there for the duration. The Lakers could be there for the duration. I mean, we hope they are. But, like, and there's all sorts of reasons why they're there. They're there for their own financial interests. They're there for the greater financial interests of NBA players in general, because if they don't get to certain financial benchmarks, then the deal they

have with the owners could go away and they could end up making less money as a collective in following seasons. But at the same time, they are there also to entertain. And they are taking a lot of discomfort and risk. And there is something there where it's a selfless act to go to the bubble in some ways, too. It's not just a selfish act to get paid. It's people who want to serve the game and are putting themselves in this very bizarre situation. And part of it is a public service. So I think that I took that away from it as well. You know what would be wild?

What's that? If Matisse's YouTube videos get more views than the games. That's not completely out of the realm of possibility. I mean, certainly some games he's going to. Yeah. Yeah. He reminds me of, who's the tennis player? Who's the young tennis player?

Sisypas. Sisypas had a YouTube channel. Sisypas is a top 10 tennis player. Matisse is a rookie and he's kind of making his name. I mean, Tsitsipas is a star. I love the FaceTime he does with his dad, by the way. Yeah, oh yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. But Tsitsipas had the same thing.

He has a YouTube channel and it was doing well, but he, as a top 10 player, he dropped it because he has other, you know, this is kind of Matisse's thing of able to get through the monotony, right? So he's, you know, five hours a day editing. Right. He's sitting in his hotel room. He's got nothing to do. So he's just editing these videos. For hours. I know. It's amazing. All right. Cool. Let's take a break. Take a quick break and we'll be back with listener questions. All right, we're back.

So, listener questions, what do you got for us? Okay, cool. We're going to start with some that we got through Twitter and Facebook. This is from Patrick Dean via Twitter. Really enjoying this format. Here's a question. With all the incredible online content out there, all the great videos and articles about everything from personal development

and outdoor athletes to literary and social issues, how can we best ration our time? Thanks. Patrick. It's a good question. I think the important thing to bear in mind is your ratio of consumption to creation. There's this illusion of productivity

that occurs when we're consuming uplifting content. We think we're actually doing something because what we're receiving is uplifting and it's educational and it's informative and it makes us feel like we're capable of achieving our goals. But the illusion, of course, is that it convinces you that you've actually done something when you haven't. So I think it's really important. First of all, it's good. I think it's really important to be mindful of your information diet, the kind of content that you're choosing to consume on a daily basis. Great question in that regard.

that you're choosing to consume on a daily basis. Yeah, great question in that regard. Yeah, and to the extent that we're in this, you know, stay at home moment for a lot of us, we're spending much more time in front of our screens. And it's easy to just click and click and click and mindlessly just hit the next YouTube video without thinking through, is this the best allocation of my time?

Oh, it hits it for you. Oh, it does? Yeah. Oh, yeah. It'll just play. Yeah, it just hits it. You don't have to do anything. Unless you interrupt the flow. Exactly. You can just relax in the Barca lounger. It'll happen. So, yeah. So, you got to first be mindful about that diet, your information diet,

your entertainment diet, and make sure that you're calibrating it so that it's in your best interest. Then you have to check the valence of consumption versus creation. There's a lot of talk about screen time, but I think screen time is too broad a term because you can be using screen time to write a book or like Matisse, edit a video or, you know, write a poem, like create music. There's plenty of

creative, productive, positive ways to use screen time where you're actually in the creation process rather than the consumptive process. So the first thing is doing an inventory of how much of your screen time is consumptive versus creative and trying to calibrate that valence so that you're using your screen time for more creative output. And then being objectively honest with yourself about the extent to which you're consuming content and perhaps diluting yourself into thinking that that's actually moving you towards your goals, I guess is the best way of answering that question. I like that. Do you digest or do you produce? And if you're not leveraging the content that you're consuming

to produce or make changes or create forward motion in your own life, then it becomes a distraction. Gary Vee says this all the time. He's like, I hope that you stop listening to me and watching me one day. Because if you're stuck on just watching those people who are motivating you, but you're not actually... Like if you just watch David Goggins videos all day long, but you never put the running shoes on and go outside or do a single pushup, then you're missing the whole point of what he's trying to explain to you. Yeah. Right? Agreed. I like that, the ratio of consumption versus creation. For me, I think of screen time. I don't even think about my computer. It's rare that I'm on the computer

unless I'm writing or working. I think of my phone. And when I'm on my phone, the screen time really is a consumptive experience. It's not so much a creative experience, although I do take notes in my phone sometimes, so it can blur the line. What about all those TikTok dance moves you got going on? Bro, don't tell them about my TikTok name. Do not mention my TikTok handle. So in terms of consumption, are there like two or three kind of go-to things that you kind of listen to on a regular basis beyond just something for you, not really even for work? I mean, I would say podcasts are the thing that I consume the most on my phone.

And I've been consuming a little bit less because I'm not in my car as much. But when I'm out training, that's my go-to form of edutainment. And I mix it up. I mean, I'd have to look at my phone to tell you what I'm listening to lately, but it tends to be, yeah, sometimes I'll use it. I listen to stuff that has nothing to do with anything that we talk about here. Like if I, you know, I'm not listening to the shows that are similar to my own because that feels like homework. Right. And I need to, you know, broaden my perspective in other areas. So I listen to like a lot of tech stuff.

I like Kara Swisher and Scott Galloway on their Pivot podcast. I like Professor Galloway's new Prof G show. I've been listening to that. I like Reply All, which is stories about the internet. Oh, cool. That are fascinating, like long form, kind of journalistic, deep dives into weird corners of the internet. I think those guys, PJ and Alex, who hosts that show, do an amazing job. I like storytelling. I'll listen to some

Rogan podcasts, but not all of them. I mix it up. Gladwell. Yeah, Gladwell for sure. Who is, I'll say it right now, nobody does an ad read like Malcolm Gladwell. He throws his whole body into it. That's a full body experience. I want to watch it. There's a whole production that goes into how he crafts these ad reads and the writing that you get a clue. It's his thing. It's where he gets to be funny, I think, more than anything.

And he is funny. But yeah, I was listening to Revisionist History the last couple of days. It's good. New season is out. Big fan. It is. He's another guy I'm trying to get on the show. We've had emails back and forth and haven't been able to make scheduling happen.

And that's what I really want to do in person. So I'm willing to wait a little bit longer. I like it. Yeah, that's another great one. Okay. From Bell Rumi on Facebook. I feel overwhelmingly disheartened by humanity. I'm generally a happy person and laugh all the time and still do, but I find myself wanting to get evangelical about stuff I feel passionately about. But when I do, understandably, I feel like no one wants to hear

it. What can I do to abate these feelings of powerlessness and fatalism about the future of humanity and the planet? A little light question for you. Yeah, right. I feel you, Bell Rumi. Oh, yeah. We all do. I'm empathetic to the melancholy. Yeah.

I understand what that feels like. It reminds me of something I tweeted a long time ago that seemed to connect with people, which was something along the lines of, if you're breaking paradigms, you can't really expect people to applaud you for it. The mainstream is not going to take kindly to your counter-programming. It just doesn't work that way, right? So if you're trying to do something different, if you're stepping outside of what is considered to be standard operating procedure, people tend to be threatened by that and they're defensive around it. And they're not necessarily going to celebrate you or accept you for that choice. And that's just part of it. It's not personal. personal, right? So the first thing I think is understanding that this is not an attack on you personally, and people who don't want to hear it from you are really saying more about themselves

than they are about any choice that you're making. And I'm also reminded about the life of John Lewis. This is a guy who basically has – devoted his entire life to butting up against the system to express what he believed in, knowing that he was to lead and step outside of any expectation or desire or need for anybody else to approve of that. And certainly from – free yourself from the need to convince anybody that you're right and you're wrong because that's a recipe for the fatalism that you're currently experiencing. It's like the be the change versus trying to get people to change. Right. And it's nothing wrong with activism. I mean, we need activists, but sometimes there's a limit to what you can do in terms of person to person. Right. So live your life, live your truth, feel free to express that, but create a healthy boundary between yourself and any expectations you have that you're going to be convincing anyone else to do anything

differently than they're already doing. And I think it's important to always lead with compassion and love and understanding. And that's another thing that John Lewis stood for, right? He's not coming from a place of anger and frustration and judgment. No. That never works for anybody. So to the extent that your advocacy or what you're trying to express to other people about your choices versus their choices, to the extent that that is tainted with some level of judgment or sense of superiority, that's not going to work, right? No one wants to hear it for a reason because nobody wants to be told that they're doing it wrong or no one wants and people don't want to be judged. So you have to just live your life, live your truth. And the sense of

powerlessness or fatalism emanates from this attachment that you have to other people changing, right? Control the controllables. All you can control is your behavior, what you're doing, and your reaction to the world. And to the extent that you can be more mindful and more present and more responsive and less reactive, the happier you're going to be. As Guru Singh always says, less emotion, more devotion. Didn't we say that the other day on the podcast? I'm always thinking about that, right? That's great. More devotion, less emotion. Yeah. And all I can say is if you think people don't want to hear about biodiversity, try telling them a swim story sometime.

Try to get somebody excited about a swim run race. See how that goes. Try to give them the blow by blow on swim run. Here's what you're going to do. You're going to put a wetsuit on and you're going to run down the street. You're going to love it. All right.

Now we're going to the voicemail. We're digging into the voicemail. So let's, should we repeat the voicemail number for people so that they can do it? Maybe Blake can put that up on the screen too. So we love repeat the voicemail number for people so that they can do it? Yeah, let's – Maybe Blake can put that up on the screen too. So we love this new voicemail. Adam set it up. 424-235-4626.

One more time. I have to go back up here. 424-235-4626. Awesome. Let's hear from Joe from Pittsburgh. Hi, Rich and Adam. Joe from Pittsburgh. Even with the question of schools reopening unresolved, many parents have already made the decision to homeschool or use cyber school this fall, myself included.

Any thoughts or tricks on how to maintain sanity while both working and being a part-time teacher during this unique time in history? Thanks, guys. And feel free to use this clip on the air. So also that was echoed by Bill Lawrence on Facebook who was asking for advice on resources for homeschoolers because he knew that you and Julie did that at one point. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So thanks, Bill and Joe, for that question. It's kind of a two-part question. One is homeschooling resources, and the other is how to kind of maintain sanity as a parent when you're trying to work and also homeschool kids. It's tough. I don't know that I have the ultimate answer to that. You do. You're a container. You can lock yourself in the

container. I have a shipping container and I lock myself in it like a womb and I say, don't bother me. It seems to work pretty well. At the same time, Julie and I have spent some time homeschooling our kids and we both have worked from home for quite a while, so we have some experience in that. So the first thing is maintaining your sanity. And I think now that everybody is – or a lot of people are working from home now, and that's a new thing. I think it's important to have boundaries around what is work time and what is homeschooling time or leisure time, right? Because when you're working from home, they all bleed into each other. And then you're kind of always working and never really working. And a lot of times you're not 100% present in whatever

you're doing because these things are overlapping. So rule number one is establish your work hours. And during those times, that's when you're focused on your profession, right? And that also requires you to communicate adequately with everybody in your family, your kids and your partner or whatever, so that everybody understands these are the hours when you're doing this thing and here are the hours we're going to be doing these other things. And also, I think it's important to still create a little bit of structure around this beyond just the scheduling. Like, don't just sit in your pajamas all day. Like, you know, it's easy to fall into a kind of depressive melancholy when you're at home all the time. And just getting dressed like you

would for a normal workday or just maintaining some of those practices, I think are important in maintaining your sanity as well. In terms of homeschooling resources, look, education is shifting. As Professor Galloway will tell you, coronavirus is an accelerant on online learning, right? Like a lot of the traditional structures around education, I don't think are going to come back. I think we're going to see a lot of mid-tier colleges go out of business. I think we're going to see this push towards more and more online learning. And we're going to see a maturation of the technological platforms that are conducive to that. And people are starting to realize that a lot of the cost that goes into education isn't really paying dividends. Like, are you really

going to pay, you know, $80,000 a year to send your kid to USC when it's basically Zoom calls? Like, that's going to, you know, that's going to really upend the paradigm here. So this is being exacerbated and accelerated by coronavirus. And we're not going to just pivot back to the normal that we knew before. Like these changes are only going to accelerate. So what I'm saying by that is that online learning is going to become more the norm than the abnormality. That doesn't mean that kids aren't going to eventually go back to the classroom. They will, of course, at some point.

I don't think it's going to be this fall for very many people. So we're in this for the long haul. In terms of homeschooling resources, I mean Julie and I, our paradigm with our kids when they were younger was very much an unschooling methodology. So it wasn't a lot of Kumon and all kinds of online learning courses. We have tutors, and we still do for Jaya, who's homeschooled. We have a couple tutors that she spends time with every week and works on projects. And she has some online stuff that she does through those tutors, but I don't have like a list of, you know, these are the websites that you go to.

Has Jaya been homeschooled this whole time? She has been. Okay. Well, she was at MUSE for a while, and now she's been homeschooled now for like the last two years. Oh, wow. Mathis goes to an art high school in downtown, but now she's been homeschooled now for like the last two years. Mathis goes to an art high school in downtown, but now that's all on Zoom. And it's been very difficult because the appeal of this art school was all the studio time and the darkroom time and all the practical,

you know, art-based education that she was receiving there that was her lifeblood. And now it's just Zoom from, you know, 8.30 in the morning to 4 o'clock at night, and it's making her insane. And I don't blame her. Kids are not wired for that. So to the extent that we're trying to mimic that classroom experience by dint of a screen I think is a mistake. I think what we need to do is leverage the unique opportunities that are available to us to do something a little bit more creative and unique with our children's education. One of the opportunities I think we have is to create a more experiential-based learning experience for kids where we look at what they're – this is particular especially to younger kids. Like look at what they're naturally interested in.

Like what are they inclined towards when they're not being told they have to learn something? Like what are they, what are the things that they're into? Is it comic books? Is it, you know, drawing pictures? Is it, you know, making beats on, you know, garage band? Like what do they do when no one's looking? And then try to figure out how to create some kind of learning experience curriculum that involves that avenue, that involves that discipline, right? And use that to teach everything from math to English, right? Like if somebody wants to make beats, well, there's an opportunity to teach them math. Music is math, right? Create compositions, learn about musical notes and how they relate to math and figure out a to platform that into a greater understanding that involves other disciplines.

It's a multidisciplinary approach. It requires a lot of attention and time on behalf of the parents. But I think that's how you get kids engaged in learning, by focusing on what they're already interested in rather than trying to compel them to be interested in something that they're not. Oh, you mean like the American ethic of freedom? What do you mean by that? You have to, at least an hour a day, I want them to be indoctrinated on how freedom is so vital. Okay. That's important. No, but I think it's really interesting. It reminds me of an old Outside Magazine article that I read. It was like about unschooling his kids. Like he moved out to

the woods with his wife and his two young kids. And the whole idea was they weren't going to homeschool. They were going to unschool. Yeah. And they were just going to live off the land and do the best they could. It was like a movie about that with V.M. Mortensen. Do you remember that? Yeah. Well, yeah. The Captain Fantastic. That's different. I mean, Captain Fantastic, he ran a real school. Right. He did, yes. Those kids were smart. More like that movie, Hannah. It's like

survival school. That was different. That was like... Very specific type of homeschooling. Captain Fantastic meets the girl with the dragon tattoo. But I think that's really interesting, not mimicking normal school. What you pointed to there, that's liberating for parents because I think a lot of people want to do that because they think – and it's also that goes for don't mimic the normal workday. Like you said, you need to be able to be okay with working four or five hours maybe instead of eight and do it in a really concentrated

fashion and then do the same thing with the schooling, maybe a morning session and an afternoon session and just move the... These are all moving parts. They don't have to look the same way that they did four or five months ago. Yeah. And there's a lot of fear with that. I've experienced this myself because I'm a product of a very traditional education and I'm a successful product of that system, right? I went to prep school and I very traditional education, and I'm a successful product of that system, right? I went to prep school, and I went to fancy colleges, and I went to law school. And so when I look at my kids, I think, well, they need to have that experience, or I need to make sure that the value that I experienced is part of their upbringing. And for me, it's been a process of letting go of a lot of that

because in truth, the educational system is ripe for a reboot. I mean, we're dealing with the legacy of a system that was created at the dawn of the industrial age to basically create a productive workforce that was capable. And it really hasn't evolved much past that in any real tangible way. Now we have this moment, this interruptive moment in which we have the opportunity to really evaluate the validity of this system and reimagine and reinvent it. And I think, you know, the hurdle for me has always been, well, if we're doing this unschooling method or if we're doing, you know,

pursuing this in a relatively untraditional way, like, are they gonna know how to do math? Are they gonna, I had these fears like, well, they're not gonna learn about, you know, like pick any subject matter. But when I really thought about it, I thought, well, education doesn't really appreciate the value of the technological tools that are at our behest now. Everybody's got a supercomputer in their pocket that has the answer to every question they ever want asked and answered. want asked and answered. So this modality of read and memorize seems completely ludicrous in light of that. And what we need to do is focus more on critical thinking skills,

life skills, leadership skills. How do we produce a well-rounded, self-sustaining individual with solid self-esteem and leadership skills and the ability to listen and the ability to learn and a love of learning. Like what you want to do is create somebody who will become a lifelong learner. If somebody is enthusiastic about learning and you have a phone or a laptop, your education doesn't have a start point and an end point. This is something you will have your entire life. So how can we instill that in young people? How can we get them excited about learning? And again, it goes back to what I said at the outset, which is focus on the things that they're interested in and demonstrate to them that no matter what that interest is, it's like a seed that can then blossom or flourish

into learning about many different aspects. Anything, because it can intersect with all these other disciplines. Right, of course, because everything intersects with everything else. Right, it's one big web. I like that. That's really good. And I like what you said about mid-level universities, because I always knew that Trump University wasn't that university. what you said about mid-level universities, because I always knew that Trump University wasn't that university. It was the time. If he launched it now, it would be a huge hit. It would be a huge hit. Maybe. Yes. Julie from Southern Minnesota. Let's hear from Julie. This is a good question.

Hi, my name is Julie from Southern Minnesota. My question is, what advice do you have for a person who's on a fixed income, about 40 pounds overweight, though nobody ever guesses me at my current weight of 180, and with a knee that's been giving me problems because I'm now 51, and arthritis has decided to take up residence in my knee. So any suggestions? Obviously, I don't want to be an elite athlete, but I do want to take up running. That is one of my dreams and goals. is one of my dreams and goals.

And so I'm just wondering, can you give me a Cliff Notes version of how I work up to that? Otherwise, I'm in good health, just chubby with a bad knee. Thank you. Hi, Julie. Thank you for your question. That's a good question.

A dream of becoming a runner. I like it. And I appreciate and applaud your honesty. First of all, I'd say I'm not a doctor, so I'm not in a position to give you medical advice with respect to your arthritis and your knee. So I don't know exactly what's going on with your knee and I'm reluctant to say anything that's going to exacerbate whatever's going on there. So the first thing is I would go to the doctor and figure out exactly what's going on there, what you can and you can't do so that whatever activity you do take up isn't going to make that knee problem worse. To the extent that it's manageable, my best suggestion for you is to get out and go for a walk. These things start with that, right? You're on a fixed income,

doesn't cost anything to go out and walk. You don't need to buy fancy shoes. You don't need to buy anything. All you need to do is put one foot in front of the other. And if you ask any of the people that I've had on the podcast who have gone from being severely overweight to becoming ultra runners, people like Joshua Johnny, it started with a walk around the block, right? And you just build very gradually upon that. So that's my only and best suggestion is to just begin. Whatever excuses you're telling yourself about what you can and you can't do are keeping you paralyzed and stuck on the couch. And it really doesn't have to be anything that scary or onerous than that initial walk. And then after you've been doing that a little bit and you walk a little bit further and you walk a little bit farther, maybe try to jog for 10 or 15 yards and see how that feels. And then the next day you go a little bit longer and you stay on top of that knee and you ice it and you go to the doctor and you eat foods that are healing, that are anti-inflammatory, that are high in antioxidants.

And the weight will start to drop gradually. This isn't like a crash diet thing or a situation where you're going to snap your fingers and your life's going to change overnight. This is a lifestyle shift. The idea is you want to make this shift that has staying power, that helps you fall in love with movement, that brings joy into your life by virtue of exercising your body so that it becomes an embedded habit and the easy choice rather than the hard choice. So walk out the door, walk around the block, celebrate the small wins, start to make tweaks, small tweaks in your diet.

wins, start to make tweaks, small tweaks in your diet. And as you start to see very gradual results, you'll experience what we talked about at the beginning of this podcast with respect to goals. You'll start to feel more emotionally attached to this journey, more invested in it. You'll develop that momentum. And before you know it, it will become a self-perpetuating motion machine that's going to take you on an amazing journey. I like it. And physical therapy can also help with a knee sometimes. Right. And to get advice from a physical therapist would be something I'd recommend. Help me.

I had a really bad foot for a long, long time. And so if you haven't explored physical therapy, you can usually get that. Even on a fixed income, you can usually get that with on a fixed income. You can usually get that with your health coverage, whatever that may be. Yeah. If your insurance covers that, great. Beyond the physical therapy and going to the doctor about your knee, the grand total cost of this experiment is $0. Right. I love it. And I remember when I was first getting back into running after being on the shelf with that foot problem for a year, I started with five minutes running, five-minute walks, like a fartlek type thing, but not at a high intensity. Is that something you recommend too?

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm a big believer in that. Yeah, yeah. Run walks. Cool. We got one more for you. This one is from Cleveland, Ohio from Allie. Hi, Rich and Adam. My name's Allie. I'm from Cleveland, Ohio, and it's certainly okay for you to put this on the air. My question for you is what your relationship is to money. And I know that you briefly touched on this in the last episode, but I graduated college a little over a year ago, and I actually decided

to pursue a career in finance because I know that it can be, A, lucrative. I have student loans to pay off in goals of my own. But B, I understand that it's really important for people to have a solid financial plan backing them so that they can actually reach their goals. But at what point is it too much to be saving, you know, too much for retirement or caring too much about what you have in the bank. You can do things in the future and choosing to live your life now because I feel like I'm very, very frugal right now with the hope that in the next few years I can do more of what I want to do, but it certainly takes away from the sort of purpose I want to have in my life right now because I'm so focused on saving and acquiring money for the future.

Thanks, Rich and Adam. Love you guys. Thanks for your question. You sound like a very responsible person. Totally. Much more responsible than I was. She would have had nothing to do with me when I was 20. It's a great question. I think that it's important to be fiscally responsible as a young person and to develop healthy habits around money at a young age and a healthy respect for what it can and can't do. I respect that she paid her way through college. Yeah, it's incredible, right? Anybody who does that, like celebrate that person right there. And I think it's perfectly acceptable and laudable to pursue a career path that will provide you with financial stability. Like I suspect if she paid for her own college that she might be coming from a background in which it wasn't as financially stable as she would have liked.

And people who come from that background are going to be the people who are more likely to pursue a conventional career path that's going to provide them with the financial stability that they lacked. I'm just projecting, but it sounds like that might be the case here. Yeah. 100% understandable that she would want that and need that because if that's the case, that was lacking beforehand. Yeah. I think what she's getting at and what's important to reckon with here is this idea, well, I'm going to create financial stability for myself and I'm going to defer those things that I really want to do for the sake of creating that foundation. The idea behind that is perfectly fine, like I said. But the fear is that you never get to the purpose part, right?

Because what happens – and I've seen this a million times. I saw it in law school with people who were like, I'm going to go into – you know, I'm going to go work. A lot of people go to law school because they want to help humans in certain ways, like in a nonprofit context. But then you accumulate all this debt. Right. And these law firms come along and they're dangling six-figure starting salaries. And people say, well, I'm just going to go do the corporate law thing for a couple of years, pay off my debt, and then I'm going to go do the thing. And what happens more often than not is you acclimate to that salary and you start to create a lifestyle that only that salary will afford. And there's a keeping up with the Joneses thing that starts to occur. starts to occur. And before you know it, you're leasing a car that you can't quite afford and you're in a mortgage and all these things then make you stuck in a career path. And it makes

it more and more difficult to then shift gears and pursue that passion, purposeful life that you had aspirations for as a young person. So the good news is you're super young, your whole life is ahead of you. Pursue that career path in finance, create that foundation of financial stability. But I would strongly suggest, not that you're not doing this already, but that you live as minimally as possible and refrain from any of those expenses that later on can prevent you from being nimble with your career. It sounds like you're good at saving money, which is fantastic. And also to remember that it's important to invest in experience, right? If you keep your overhead low, you create choices for yourself

and flexibility with your career path. And you have the ability to invest in experiences, whether those are trips or learning things that you wanna learn in your life, career, other hobbies, things like that. As long as you can do that, then you then have the freedom to make those changes later on in life.

That's really great advice. The only thing I'd add to that is- I didn't do any of those things as a young person. Me? I didn't. You didn't. No. Well, you were a dashing swimmer at Stanford.

No, but I made a lot of mistakes that I wish I could change. So my message to young people is always live, and try to protect that ability to be flexible and nimble. I think that's right. And I think that's great advice. And it seems like she's on that path. It doesn't seem like she's acquiring a whole lot at this point. Right. But I would say that this craving for purpose is real and FOMO is real. And sometimes we're so attached back to the consumption, but so attached to our phones. And we see people living lives of so-called purpose or having these experiences that are like, you know, bucket list type experiences. And, and, and she's like grinding

it out, saving money. First of all, a lot of that is, is false. It's not as great and or ideal as it looks like. So don't, don't, you know, you got to make sure to check yourself. I'm not saying that she is indulging in or, or subject to FOMO. We all are at some level. But the other thing I would say is purpose doesn't have to be, it doesn't have to be sensible career or purpose. It can be both. And, and your purpose doesn't have to be your sensible career. And in, in the interim, I think purpose is going to be really important for you to be able to get through kind of grinding weeks that are harder to get through. And one way of doing that is volunteering or finding some way to connect with something that you do care about. So I would say that there are ways to mitigate that in the interim before you kind of make that nimble jump to your career. I think that's a really important point. And we think of purpose in this binary context. You're either in this financially secure career or you're living this purpose-driven.

It doesn't have to be that way, and it's not that way. You can find purpose in anything that you're doing, in any pursuit. And if you feel bereft of that in your particular career choice, you can find purpose in just trying to be of maximum service to the people that you report to or just doing the best job that you can. Absolutely. You can like zen in on the actions you're taking at work. You can volunteer as a literacy coach or something like that or help people with finances that might need help or people in trouble with their mortgages, whatever it might be. But yeah, thanks for the question. That's a good one.

Cool. That's what we have, man. We did it. We wrapped it. How do you feel? I feel good. I like that we're shaping this thing into something. Well, I told you at the outset,

we could create a structure for it, but ultimately it's gonna tell us what it wants to be. And I think we're slowly finding that. Yeah. But I think we're hitting a good stride with this. Yeah. And it's always good to be here, man. Thanks for having me.

Of course, man. My pleasure. We'll be back in another two weeks. In the meantime, you can follow Adam at Adam Skolnick. I'm easy to find at Rich Roll everywhere. Don't forget to hit that subscribe button on YouTube, Apple, or Spotify. As always, you can find links to everything we discussed today in the show notes on the episode page on my website at richroll.com. You can submit your questions on the Facebook group or on the voicemail 424-235-4626. At some point, I'll memorize that. Yeah. And tell me how you feel about wearing a mask. No, don't.

But wear a mask. And don't tell me anything about your feelings about it, but just wear one. Right. All right. Thanks, you guys. I appreciate you. I don't take your attention for granted. It means a lot that you spend this time with me and with Adam every couple of weeks. So appreciate it. Thanks to everybody who helped put on today's show. Jason Camiolo for audio engineering, production, show notes, and interstitial music. Blake Curtis to my left here for videoing today's show and creating all the clips that we share on social media. Jessica Miranda for graphics, Allie Rogers and Davey Greenberg,

who generally do portraits, but no one's here today. Georgia Whaler for copywriting, DK, my man right over here, for advertiser relationships and so much more. DK? Including taste testing the Beyond KFC. He taste tested like three of them. I know. And theme music by Tyler Trapper and Hari.

Tyler Pyatt, Trapper Pyatt, and Hari Mathis. Thanks for the love you guys. See you back here in a couple days with another amazing episode. Until then, what do you want to sign off with? Don't you do your signature? I put you on the spot. Me?

Yeah. Be cool, be kind. There you go. Peace. Plants. Namaste. Thank you.