The Rich Roll Podcast - Roll On: E Pluribus Unum

Episode Date: November 12, 2020

Election week. Healing the national divide. Environmental progress. Weekly wins. And, of course, listener questions. Welcome to another edition of Roll On. Commanding co-host duties as always is my hype man Adam Skolnick, an activist and veteran journalist perhaps best known as David Goggins’ Can’t Hurt Me co-author. Adam has written about adventure sports, environmental issues and civil rights for outlets such as The New York Times, Outside, ESPN, BBC, and Men’s Health. He is the author of One Breath and is currently hard at work on a novel. Some of the many topics explored in today’s conversation include: • Recapping our whirlwind election week; • Making sense of the 70 million votes for Trump and the implications this presents; • Understanding Biden and the presidency to come; • Bridging our cultural and political divide as a national imperative; • Rich’s latest Esquire piece and thoughts on the writing process; • Chris Nikic, the first athlete with Down syndrome to complete an Ironman Triathlon; • and Rich’s newest offering, Voicing Change. In addition, we answer the following listener questions: • How do you stay focused on your journey and minimize distractions? • How do you embrace change and take a step into the unknown? • How do you make time for your partner as parents to young children? Thank you to Frank from Southern California, Davin from South Florida, and Michelle from New Jersey for your questions. If you want your query discussed, drop it on our Facebook Page, or better yet leave a voicemail at [phone]. The visually inclined can watch our exchange on YouTube. And as always, the podcast streams wild and free on Apple Podcasts and Spotify. Enjoy! Peace + Plants, Rich

The Rich Roll Podcast. We're brought to you today by recovery.com. I've been in recovery for a long time. It's not hyperbolic to say that I owe everything good in my life to sobriety. And it all began with treatment and experience that I had that quite literally saved my life. And in the many years since, I've in turn helped many suffering addicts and their loved ones find treatment. And with that, I know all too well just how confusing and how overwhelming and how overwhelming

and how challenging it can be to find the right place and the right level of care, especially because unfortunately, not all treatment resources adhere to ethical practices. It's a real problem, a problem I'm now happy and proud to share has been solved by the people at recovery.com, has been solved by the people at recovery.com who created an online support portal designed to guide, to support, and empower you to find the ideal level of care tailored to your personal needs. They've partnered with the best global behavioral health providers to cover the full spectrum of behavioral health disorders, including substance use disorders, depression, anxiety, eating disorders, gambling addictions, and more. Navigating their site is simple. Search by insurance coverage, location, treatment type, you name it. Plus, you can read reviews from former

patients to help you decide. Whether you're a busy exec, a parent of a struggling teen, or battling addiction yourself. I feel you. I empathize with you. I really do. And they have treatment options for you. Life in recovery is wonderful, and recovery.com is your partner in starting that journey. When you or a loved one need help, go to recovery.com and take the first step towards recovery. To find the best treatment option for you or a loved one, again, go to recovery.com. All right, Adam Skolnick is back,

and it's time to take roll call. Let's do the show. do the show. All right. What's going on, everybody? Welcome to another edition of Roll On, where me and my hype man, Adam Skolnick, who's sitting across from me right now, my bestie, journeyman, journo, adventurer, author, environmentalist, break down topics of public interest. Yes. Today's going to be a bit of an election extravaganza. So if you're burned out on that, I understand, but we're not going to let this moment pass without sharing a few thoughts about that. In addition to our typical teachable moments, a little show and tell, some listener questions, and as always, kicking it off with a little fitness check-in. But I think today, Adam, we should start with how our mental fitness is doing.

Yeah. Well, you tell me, how are you feeling? Where were you when all this stuff was going down? It's been a roller coaster. Yeah. I feel good today. I'm definitely feeling a sense of relief. I feel like I can breathe.

I feel calm, like my blood pressure is settling in. And I think it didn't really become completely apparent to me until I was watching Harris and Biden deliver their speeches the other night. Saturday night. And I could just feel myself settling and I was much more emotional than I expected to be.

Because I think those speeches were great, but in the grand scheme of things, they were relatively banal, but in juxtaposition to what we've been enduring over the last four years, I felt like they were exactly what we needed to hear. And it all kind of like dawned on me how much tension and anxiety I had been holding,

even while simultaneously trying to create healthy boundaries between myself and the news cycle, you know, out of self-preservation to just exercise a little bit of self-care amidst all the chaos and insanity. Yeah. It's like we have been trapped in solitary confinement, listening to death metal for four years. And then Kenny G came through. In Guantanamo or something? In Guantan years. And then Kenny G came through. In Guantanamo or something? In Guantanamo. And then Kenny G came through and you're like, I always hated Kenny G, but boy, it's beautiful.

That's a pretty good analogy, I think. But no, apologies to death metal. I didn't mean to insult death metal like that. How's your mental state? You know, I'm good now. It was, uh, it was funny. Like I've been very positive. I've been very, I've believed that there was a chance to win this whole time. But on, on Tuesday when it was not going well, uh, I have to admit, I did not feel like it didn't feel like a win. It felt like we were going somewhere dark. It felt like, uh, and I wasn't shocked by it. I'm not shocked by the

numbers Trump got, and we'll talk about why. We're going to get into all of that. But, and I wasn't surprised at the time. And I wasn't affected like I was four years before, where I was really, really, really upset. This time I was like, okay, trying to stay on top of it. And then the next day, waking up to better news and then following it throughout the course of the day on Wednesday and into the night where it looked good. Again, I felt like I could sleep well. I wasn't like super consumed with it. And then on Thursday, when like we'd turned the corner and I think by the, I forget what time it was that, uh, we took the lead. We were on our way to taking the lead. We meaning Biden, Pennsylvania and

Georgia and all of that. Right. When it started looking really good, I started freaking the fuck out, you know, like I was like, I was like, is this going to work? And I couldn't sleep. And I checked like three times in the middle of the night. And like, I was, I don't know why, but I was like, I was afraid, like it was all gonna be like a mirage and evaporate. The rug was gonna get pulled out from underneath you. Yeah. And I think that's like PTSD from the experience

of the last four years, knowing that anything is possible at any given moment. I mean, my experience was a little bit the opposite. The first evening coming into the dawning realization that so many people had voted for this person that I have such strong opinions about was a difficult pill to swallow. And I've been processing that over the last week.

And I have some thoughts I wanna share about that. That was a struggle for me, but then the following day and the days that have followed, I found myself in a state of greater equanimity increasingly every hour that passes. I'm with you. And like after that really bad night's sleep on Thursday, I just realized I'm too close to it. I'm too attached to it. It's going well. Just let go. And I am not even coming close to touching the angst over who voted for Trump. I mean, to me, it's like one thing at a time. And the one thing is Biden won. We're in a better position today than we were yesterday. There's lots of work to do, but I'm not doing that work right now.

I'm going to take a deep breath and be happy where we are right now. And that's kind of where I would advocate everyone should be at the moment, because no one's like, unless you're in Georgia, there is no big electoral fight anytime soon. Georgia is the exception. So then let's start to build and figure out the best strategy going forward. But at the moment, worrying about and blaming and shaming, I don't think it's the time right now. It's the time is to celebrate and be content with where we are and figure out how to get forward. Yeah. Yeah.

Well, before launching into the bullseye of this whole issue, while we're still technically talking about our fitness check-in. Oh, right. I think we should give a shout out to our boy Davey, who's taking pictures over here, who just ran his first half marathon.

Davey. By passively absorbing the podcast content over the last couple months, took it upon himself to start running for the very first time, conquered his first 13.1. Shout out, brother. It's amazing. Good job.

You're built like a runner. The big story, the election, thoughts. We talked a little bit about the speeches. Yep. Those speeches are set in juxtaposition against this background hum of count the votes, don't count the votes. That's funny. This idea, this trope of media doesn't decide elections, courts decide elections. I thought voters decide elections, but okay.

All culminating in this kind of glorious, desperate, pathetic display of Rudy Giuliani at the Four Seasons Total Landscaping Company, which is so impossibly delicious. It's like a step down from Borat too. Like he keeps finding new ways. It really is like out of Veep, right? And I think the important thing,

and I don't wanna spend too much time on this, is that it triggers my kind of instinctual desire for some level of schadenfreude and that's an unhealthy impulse. Like as funny as that is, I think it's quite beside the point. And to kind of start, I'd like to begin with the experience that I was having on the eve of election night when it became adamantly apparent that this was going to be a very close race, that there was a tremendously large swath of America that were voting for Trump. And this idea that despite

the rampant corruption that we've experienced over the last four years, the blatant self-dealing, the incessant lying, the pernicious and sociopathic egomania, the science denialism, this reprehensibly bungled pandemic response, the utter failure to lead, the unabated cronyism, the autocratic self-congratulating, the climate change denial, and the pathetic utter refusal to concede to reality and instead crouch behind bloviating bluster and megalomania, all supported by a propagandist media machine called Fox and a lily-livered Republican legislature too afraid to challenge the baby king and this foamy AR-15 armed base caravanning across America and this weaponized campaign of social media disinformation

led by QAnon and others, we awake to this realization, this undeniable realization that nearly half of America decided more of this guy. How is this possible? And this was the pain point for me on that evening. And as the days unfolded afterwards, we see 70 million votes for Trump. 57% of white Americans voted for Trump. 32% of the Latin, and Asian communities. Mitch McConnell and Lindsey Graham were reelected. Republicans retained control of the Senate. Kushner is now pushing for new Trump rallies. And we even have Emily Murphy, this Trump appointee, who's refusing to release transition team funds. And this inability to kind of acknowledge that Biden has carried the day. And all of this leaves me in a place

of trying to understand what is going on and what all of this means. And I think where I've arrived is that, you know, the first inclination is the reality of America is not what I thought it was. But I think a more healthy lens through which to perceive all of this is to understand and really like grok

that America really never has been the progressive ideal that we hold it out to be. And this realization of just how divided and split we are has shed light on a system of systemic ills that have always been there, right? And if you were to ask a black person, a person of color, a minority, they would tell you, yes, this is my experience all the time. And I think white America is waking up to a more crystallized sense of all of this. Yes. Well said, man. A couple of things kind of jumped to mind. One is, I thought I liked it when you read my resume, but when you read Trump's resume, it's even better. I like that, that, that soliloquy.

And I want to, I want to, you know, quickly, you know, at some point soon pivot into, you know, solutions. Cause I have thought a little bit more deeply about this, but go ahead. But you know, I think, like I said, I have not focused on who voted for Trump because for a long time I knew in my mind I never really thought. Look, it's not all truth. There's truth in history, but it's one perspective of truth. And so we create in our own minds this version of America that we experience, but it's never the great ideal. It never was the great ideal that they taught.

And it's not as bad as we like to think of it sometimes now. It's never as great and it's never as awful. That's my feeling about, certainly about America. But yeah, no, it's never been the progressive ideal. I think that the one thing Trump has given us is this revelation of some deep fissures and deep problems that we haven't dealt with for a long time. I think that, you know, that four years ago, uh, when Dave Chappelle hosted Saturday Night Live right after the election, one of the skits that sticks out for me is him and Chris Rock went to an election night party and they were joking because all the white people were like in tears and, you know, America might be racist and they were laughing about it

because exactly what you're saying. But now it's right there out in the open and maybe worse than anybody has thought. But the problem is we need to figure out a way, we have such deep problems that we need to figure out a way to bridge this bizarre gap. I think we're going to get into some of the reading, but Roxane Gay's op-ed in the New York Times kind of encapsulated it for me. That's the I'm shattered, but I'm ready to fight article.

Exactly, exactly. And she wrote, the United States is not at all united. We live in two countries. In one, people are willing to grapple with racism and bigotry. We acknowledge that women have a right to bodily autonomy, that every American has a right to vote and the right to healthcare and the right to a fair living wage.

We understand that this is a country of abundance and that the only reason economic disparity exists is because of a continued government refusal to tax the wealthy proportionally. The other United States is committed to defending white supremacy and patriarchy at all costs. Its citizens are the people who believe in QAnon's conspiracy theories and take Mr. Trump's misinformation as gospel. They see America as a country of scarcity, where there will never be enough of anything to go around, so does every man and woman for themselves.

They are not concerned with the collective because they believe any success they achieve by virtue of their white privilege is achieved by virtue of merit. They see equity as oppression. They are so terrified, in fact, that as the final votes were counted in Detroit, a group of them swarmed the venue shouting, stop the count. In Arizona, others swarmed the venue shouting, stop the count. In Arizona, others swarmed the venue shouting, count the votes. The citizens of this version of America only believe in democracy that serves their interests. I think that there is some truth in that. Yeah. But I also think it's important to point out, in some respects, I think that paints a somewhat unfair picture of a lot of Trump voters. I think there's a large swath of people

that just feel very strongly about pro-life and they're willing to overlook all of President Trump's issues because that is of paramount importance to them. And I also think there's a lot of people who bristle at identity politics. And I think there's a conversation to be had around the extent to which the overly woke community tipped certain voters in a particular direction. Like there's a lot of people who just, when they hear defund

the police, the lights go out and they don't want any part of that conversation. And they're going to vote for Trump knowing full well that, you know, he is who he is. And I think that we need to have an honest conversation about the extent to which, you know, these conversations around equality, you know, move us in the right direction or move us away from, you know, the shared common good that we seek. I agree. I mean, I think the progressive people are painting already very bold lines in an us versus them fashion. And I agree that that's why I'm not touching that 70 million number and letting that make me feel worried about the condition of America, because I was

already worried about the condition of America. I already know that we have misinformation. I already know that we have division. I already know that we have people in the streets actually already fighting out little skirmishes. I get it. I know that. But the progressives who have the biggest ideas on how to fix problems like systemic inequality, whether it's ethnic, racial, or economic, fighting climate change, climate justice, social justice, preserving wild lands, preserving marine protected areas, all these kinds of things, these big ideas, it's gonna take more than half the country.

It's gonna take more than 50% of us. If there's 70 million over there, we gotta get 10. We gotta get 15 million of them. And in order to do that, you have to fundamentally understand and appreciate the importance of coalition building and reaching across the aisle, which gets into a perhaps underappreciated advantage

of somebody like Joe Biden, which we're going to unpack in a minute. And yeah, I mean, I agree with that. And as much as I adore AOC and so many of the ideals that she stands for, and I just have so much respect for her energy and enthusiasm and her ability to articulate difficult concepts and hold truth to power and all the things that she does, when she tweeted the other day that we need to kind of make this list of people and hold them accountable. There's an aspect of that that I can get on board with, like, okay,

like, let's not forget how we got here. At the same time, I'm not sure that that's really the productive way forward if we want to establish the kind of coalitions we're going to need in order to enable the change that we'd like to see. Right, I mean, of the 70 million who voted for Trump, 10% of them is the stat I heard voted for Obama. So 10% of that 70, seems like that should be up for grabs. We have to communicate in good faith. I'm with AOC when it comes to finding out

who separated children, who made those orders. You know, we have 550 kids whose parents were sent away and deported and weren't kept track of. And then we have 500, we have, I guess it's 500 kids here that we don't know when they'll, or if they'll ever see their parents again. I mean, that's a crime against humanity. People who committed crimes against humanity. And I put Kristen Nielsen, who was head of DHS in that category, I will gladly put her in there as my personal opinion. And I will put anybody who oversaw that and was a part of that and a party to that, that's a crime against humanity. The only way that you can get redemption and keep going in public life, in my opinion, after committing a crime like that is to have some sort of justice

around it, which is if a restorative justice would be coming out and telling people what happened and exactly how it happened and what your role was in it and ask for forgiveness. But no more denial that this is the same policy that Obama had. No more denial that it didn't happen. So those people, I think they belong on a list of investigations should be really conducted and figure that out. People who are having office jobs, I think that's just a little bit too much for me. Yeah. We have to be careful that we're not fomenting some form of McCarthyism. Right. That's going to exacerbate the divide that we need to hear.

No, no. You don't, no McCarthyism, but if there was a crime, I think that's okay to investigate. And if it was just these people worked for Trump, I don't think that's fair enough, right? Yeah. Yeah, because the problem is once you do that, and then the pendulum swings again, the people that work for you, AOC, are going to be on some list. Right. And that's not very safe. It always swings back the other way. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I think that there's a short-sightedness that these policies that we set in motion remain,

they persist when regime changes occur. Yeah. And then they rubber band backwards in the other direction. We've talked about this before. That's the problem with some of the progressive politics that we experience is they include ideals that are not liberal.

There is a thought police, speech police aspect to it. There is a make us against them aspect to it, a superiority aspect to it. And the other side has it too. I mean, like the right wings have this really skewed view of what a Democrat is because of the media domination on that side of things. It's not just Fox News. It's the incredible conservative media empire

that's all over the radio. Their incredible manipulation of Facebook and YouTube to dominate there. They dominate the media. They hit people where they live and they spread messages that are to us unbelievable. But if you get them enough, I guess they become believable. Like a guy like Biden, who's a center as you can get, being called a socialist. It's like, if you say the word socialist enough, people, it starts to stick. Yeah, that's the amazing thing. I mean, this guy's

been a centrist his entire life. He's the furthest thing from an ideologue. And by just perpetually repeating this mantra that he's a socialist and we should fear socialism, it somehow becomes true in the minds of millions of Americans. Right, and the truth is, we've had corporate welfare in this country for far too long.

Oil companies get big federal subsidies. Is that socialism?. Oil companies get big federal subsidies. Is that socialism? Big agriculture companies get big federal subsidies. Is that socialism? Is Medicare socialism? Is public education socialism? We have to decide what is what. And at the same time, you know, as Democrats that want to have bigger policy ideas around helping more people and creating a more equitable society, you have to get ahead of that argument. And how do you do it? And I think the Democrats did a poor job at messaging,

particularly the Latin community around this, treating it more as a monolith than it truly is. I mean, I think when you look at Florida and Dade County, you have a huge population of Cuban-Americans who are scarred by the communist legacy of Cuba, and any dint whatsoever of socialism is going to push them in the other direction because of their legacy and their history. That's true. I mean, but that community is typically Republican anyway. I mean, they were involved in the Bush and Gore recount. But yes, I think I read there was disinformation around there.

And then in Texas, there was a more kind of Mexican-American base that was also kind of conservative, moderate conservative, mostly around pro-life issues, I think, religion. But in Arizona, the reason Arizona is looking blue right now is because of younger progressive Latinos. So it's a moving target. I mean, like the idea to me, if I could have one solution, it would be two solutions. One, appoint Stacey Abrams as the head of the Democratic Party. Let her organizational genius kind of basically the head of the Democratic Party, let her organizational genius

kind of basically take over at the Democratic Party. And the other thing is, I think field offices have to be opened up in the middle of the country. We can't cede the middle of the country to Republicans. You can't just say, because we're not getting, we don't have the media reach, and we're not going to catch up to that anytime soon. So if people are getting it in their phones, they're getting it at home, they're getting it in the car radio, they're getting it television,

we gotta have people knocking on their door saying, no, this isn't how it is. Analog. You gotta go analog to beat the digital. I'm telling you, it's like the landline is better tech than our cell phones. I love my landline. We need to have people- But I don't even have a landline. Exactly. than our cell phones. I love my landline. We need to have people-

But I don't even have a landline. Exactly. And nobody's probably gonna knock on my door. No. I think we also need to get a better handle on these digital tools. I mean, certainly there's a lot to be learned and there's so much danger there at the same time,

but they're not being marshaled properly. Not by Democrats. But I do think there's something about like a more physical presence, more like, and my friend Tom Zollner, who's a writer, was volunteering in Arizona. And he's from Arizona. He used to write for the paper there.

And he was assigned to go to Kingman, Arizona. And I guess he was supposed to like to Kingman, Arizona. And I guess he was supposed to be at a polling place. And at the polling place, they had too many volunteers there. So he got sent somewhere else and he decided, you know what, they don't need me there. I'm gonna just get out the vote. I'm gonna knock on doors and get out the vote

in Kingman, Arizona, small town, rural area. It's 38% Democrat, I think he wrote on Facebook. And he just took it upon himself, covered the entire town and got like a half dozen to a dozen people to go out and vote that weren't going to vote. Because the Democrats that lived there thought they'd been forgotten about.

They hadn't been reached out to. They hadn't been, I mean, this is according to him. And if that's happening in Kingman, Arizona, and Arizona is kind of a purple state, you know, like that's not good news. Like the Democratic Party has to do a better job. Stacey Abrams registered 800,000 voters or something in Georgia.

Like we need that kind of energy. We don't need the cozy up with celebrity energy anymore because that's part of the resentment. You know, there's too much cozying up with celebrity energy anymore because that's part of the resentment. You know, there's too much cozying up with celebrity. There's too much cozying up with Silicon Valley, too much cozying up with millionaires and billionaires and cultural elite. It's too much.

Well, it's repellent for a lot of people. And the most important thing you said is that these people feel like they've been forgotten. And I think there's a lot of people like that. And when you're in that place and you feel like you have no agency and you're not being heard, and then you're getting messaged with political, I don't even want to call it propaganda, but messaging that triggers that fear impulse or exacerbates that sense of being forgotten, that's gonna marshal a powerful emotional reaction and instinct in people.

And the Democratic Party has done a terrible job at figuring out how to really answer to that. And I think that's really where the work needs to be. I agree. I mean, in 2008, Obama was a genius at grassroots organizing organizing he didn't take um any contributions over a certain dollar amount he had more small donations than a history of the presidential politics as far as i know in modern modern campaigns um and he

he was a genius at it and we need to get back to that um you know we need to we need a return of that i mean the one one thing last thing I'll say on, because before we get to the Biden and kind of moving us forward, there was a great Politico article I shared with you. Right. America's Eerly Retracing Rome Steps to a Fall. Will it Turn Around Before It's Too Late? This came out, I think, Monday before the election

or on election day. It was before, I think it was just before election day. Just before election day. And it's not your typical, like we're fucked because of Trump article. This is a historical deep dive into Julius Caesar. It's an incredible read. I mean, I've recommended it to some people. Some people are scared by it.

It's definitely eerie, but there are these crazy parallels that I never knew. I never knew Julius, you know, like I was forced to read Julius Caesar by Shakespeare, but I don't recall ever knowing these kinds of details. I know I sent it to Ryan Holiday because I felt like he could have written it because he's so steeped in Roman history,

but the parallels between, you know, the end of the Trump era and the end of Julius Caesar's reign are unbelievable. Well, his first reign. Right, and this is like a 5,000 word think piece, right? Yeah, yeah. On this whole thing. I'll just give the highlights to the listeners. Big sex scandals.

Julius Caesar was rumored to actually have had, slept with a king prior to his rise. That I did not know. No, he was very famous before he came into office. He was in crippling debt. He was despised by intellectuals. He promoted his own image with these ostentatious festivals in the gladiator games. So the Trump rally thing is there.

His opponents ridiculed his attempts to disguise his balding. He wore the oak wreath on his head because of his bald spot. So the comb over. And he took his message right to the people. It was like a preternatural Twitter. He did. He rallied against the elites and he did it in this something called Conteo,

I think it was called. And it was Conteo was a public forum of debate where people from the left, the right, the center, everyone would come together and they'd scream at each other. But they were actually a part of a political apparatus where ideas were kind of debated there. And some of those ideas ended up making it up to Senate and the Senate would adopt

them into law if they were approved and all of that. So it was a vital political forum. And he turned that completely upside down where he'd go there with his big following and he'd turn them into rallies where he'd rail against elites. And basically what happened was everything became so polarized on both sides. So, and that's what we're seeing here, right? So like the right is aligned with Trump. The left is angry, still angry, grieving, pissed off, you know, celebrating at the same time,

dancing in the streets. But a lot of people are still angry and feeling like we got our country back when, you know, they're taking a polarized view. What happened there was Julius Caesar, you know, Rome, the Republic crumbled, Julius Caesar ended up returning to Rome with a big army, took over and installed himself as emperor for life until he was assassinated. I mean, that's basically that progression. Of course, Trump didn't win the election. This was the prediction. If Trump had won the election, we were gonna be.

So now we have this opportunity, right, to distance ourselves from this Roman narrative, and that's where we're at. But the conditions that we have, the polarization, all of that needs to be dealt with. Yeah, it's eerily similar in so many interesting ways. It's a fascinating read. We'll link that up in the show notes.

Yeah. But let's shift gears and get into how we're going to move forward. Like I said at the outset, as kind of hilarious as the Four Seasons total landscaping situation is, I really feel it's important to resist that schadenfreude impulse. And I think we need to start investing in how we're going to heal as a nation and coalesce and coexist because we are so split. Somebody who grew up, I grew up in Washington, DC. It was very much an inside the beltway environment. My dad was a government lawyer. My next door neighbor was a Republican Senator. The director of the FBI lived around the corner.

And the school that I went to was filled with the kids, the sons of prominent politicians all across Washington. So I was very much steeped in politics from a very young age. And what I remember most, aside from the fact So I was very much steeped in politics from a very young age. And what I remember most, aside from the fact that I was very up to speed on everything that was going on, much more so until recent years,

was the comedy that existed across the aisle. Like Republicans and Democrats coexisted in an environment of mutual respect to the point where, you know, I would, we would go- Comedy with a T. Yeah, there'd be dinner parties that you would get and it would be Republicans and Democrats and everyone was hucking it up and getting along. Like there were differences and, you know, distinct, you know, distinction in how these people would see the world and what they thought was best for the country. But there wasn't the acrimony and the divide and the inability to

communicate that we see now, which is really like this disease that's infecting us at a rate that's far more fatal than what we're seeing with coronavirus, frankly. And I think if we're going to proceed and move forward as a country, we have to figure out a way to return to some level of that comedy. And that's one reason why on the eve of the election, I wrote that piece for Esquire, which is kind of about how to navigate the week to come

and the weeks that follow. Great piece. I wrote that. it's not a political piece in any regard, it's really a self-care piece. It's fantastic. How do we maintain some level of equanimity amidst the chaos, but implicit in all of that is this idea that we need to figure out how to communicate with each other, the importance of meaningful conversation and what we try to do here on the podcast and how we apply what I try to practice here in our daily lives with the people that we encounter.

And it's a tough pill to swallow and it's difficult because we're so disharmonized at the moment and because we see things so differently and that difference has been infected with this, And that difference has been infected with this sense of confusion and acrimony that we all feel like it's an impossible bridge to cross for each other. Yeah. Yeah. I loved Dave Chappelle's opening monologue on Saturday Night Live where, you know, that's a guy who could have gotten up

and said all kinds of, you know, hilarious, but, you know, divisive things. And instead he sees that opportunity to say like, I don't hate anyone. I hate that feeling that nobody cares about you, which speaks to what we just talked about, this idea that there are so many people who feel overlooked in this world

and that we need to find forgiveness and joy in our lives. And I think that's super powerful coming from a guy like that, who has become in many ways, this sort of comedian prophet for a lot of times. He's a healer. He is a healer. Yeah.

It also helps, I think part of his perspective, I don't think you could take away the fact that he lives in a small town in Ohio where he's living around in farm country where it is red state land. And he's had good experiences there and he's had negative experience there where he's talked in his comedy show.

But for the most part, he trusts his neighbors and likes his neighbors. And he just wants to live life and like and enjoy people and love people like we all do. I mean, that gives us like, to me, Joe Biden is such an interesting person and such an interesting moment for him. To me, like he ran the classic rope-a-dope campaign

like we'd never seen before. He was never seen for months. He didn't find him. He let Trump just throw all these wild punches and punch himself out, basically. And the bet was with a few kind of weeks of showing up in certain states with Obama and without Obama and wherever they went,

mostly Pennsylvania. I think there was a lot of Florida, Pennsylvania, Michigan, Wisconsin, right? If I remember correctly, that that would be enough. And it almost was not enough, because we picked a candidate that from my perspective at the time when Biden won, we were picking somebody who was as blank as you can get. When he won the nomination. Yeah, when he won the nomination. He was just this blank guy that might appeal to people that we need to get to vote for us.

And in a way to get enough Trump people to come on board or to get enough people turned out. He was a nice guy that give Bernie Sanders a lot of credit. He rallied progressives to bond with Biden. The progressives themselves saw what happened last time, and they learned from their mistakes. And then he had Stacey Abrams and these great voter turnout machines that came up, and everything came up, and it helped Biden barely eke it out. And at the time, on Tuesday night, when it wasn't looking good, I thought maybe the Democratic Party missed the boat.

Maybe you can't pick a blank guy that nobody really has strong feelings for or against really and make that your candidate, even when the other guy is Trump. Maybe the idea of picking a guy who's just not that guy isn't the right move. It turned out to be the right move. And now I think he's in an incredible position and he could be actually the right guy for this moment, exactly for the reasons that you're talking about.

Yeah. I think there's something to be said for that. I mean, I'll be the first to admit that I was hardly excited that Biden was the nominee. There's just nothing that inspired me about him. He's fine. But here's a guy who's 78 years old. He's clearly lost a step. In that first debate, he did look very old. I wouldn't say feeble, but not energized in the way that somebody like Trump is. say feeble, but not energized in the way that somebody like Trump is. And he's a guy who ran a campaign as this sort of blank slate individual, very much in opposition to Trump as opposed to what he's for specifically, right? This is a guy who's, the furthest thing from socialist has never been an ideologue in any regard. He's very much a pluralist, somebody who's always furthest thing from socialist, has never been an ideologue in any regard. He's very much a pluralist,

somebody who's always been a voice of compromise. I mean, when he first ran for Senate at 29, it was like, what's your platform? And I don't think that he had a platform and he'd probably admit to so much, right? He was probably driven more by ambition at that time than anything else. There is no single issue that has ever animated him or any platform that he's put out there.

It has been defined, a campaign defined, you know, in many ways, simply in opposition to Trump. Yep. Trump dominated the conversation. Right. It was always about, you know, why Trump's bad as opposed to what he's for. Yeah. Not that he's not for certain things and he articulated those throughout the campaign,

but that got kind of backtracked by- It mattered less. Exactly. This is a guy who's about, and I think to your point of like, this might be the guy for the moment, this is a guy who's a negotiator. He's about procedure and process

over passion. He has this life experience that's been marked time and time again with tragedy, and that's instilled this deep empathy that he has right now and the way that he carries himself. And it's very interesting that he's from Delaware, because if you look at Delaware on the map, it's like this symbol of centrism. It's right there, smack in the middle between, it's neither the South, it's neither the North, it's right in between. And that is kind of who this guy is, right?

And that's how he approaches policymaking. He comes from that generation that you were talking about, the generation of comedy, comedy with a T, by the way. And that's his big thing. His big lament is the breakdown in communication in the Senate. He liked those parties. And the lack of protocol. He liked going to those dinners.

When he was able to attend them. I mean, when he was a young senator, he was Amtrak Joe because he was always going back to Delaware to take care of his boys. That's right. In the wake of his daughter and his wife perishing in that car accident. That's right. But I think Bernie embracing Biden,

I think you're seeing Mitt Romney and some senators that do like Joe Biden. That definitely helps, I think. And we'll see. We'll see if he's gonna have enough. Georgia looms very large. There's two center seats that are out there. I feel very good about where Georgia's at.

But Georgia, and thank you, Philly, and thank you, Atlanta for rising up and Detroit. I mean, these incredibly beautiful, cosmopolitan, multi-ethnic cities with incredible black traditions really saved this country. I think that needs to be said. And so I appreciate that. And Atlanta is this interesting case study because Atlanta is doing very well economically. It's becoming increasingly progressive. It's got

incredible history, positive history, you know, and now it's got the Hollywood aspect of it. There's so much Hollywood production there. And so it's in a time when there's a lot of economic crunch, pandemic aside, Atlanta, maybe now is not the right time to say this, but in general, over the last five years, Atlanta is really trending way up. It's like one of these cities that's just booming

and becoming a global city. And it's a success story and that's changing the way Georgia votes. It's very interesting to me that that's happening. And now we have this moment where in a month, if you get two senators, then Biden's really in a good position to govern. But if you don't, if you get one or if you get neither, then we're going to see. We're going to see if we can bridge that gap. Well, just to conclude this discussion about Biden being the cipher for the moment, all of these things that we're discussing about his kind of personal proclivities, All of these things that we're discussing about his kind of personal proclivities, I think an argument, a solid argument can be made that he is appropriate for this moment to kind, listen, a centrist isn't the most exciting

thing for anybody, but perhaps that centrist mentality can be a force for healing right now. And I hold out hope and I'm optimistic that he can unite us where we need it most. We'll see. Definitely. Two final thoughts on that. The first is, there's a very interesting deep dive on who Biden is as an individual. If you want to learn a little bit more kind of behind the curtain about what makes this guy tick. Ezra Klein put up a great podcast the other day with this guy, Evan Osnos, who's a Biden biographer. And they kind of talk about the evolution of Biden over the years. And I found that to be very helpful in wrapping my head around who this human being is. And secondarily,

I loved how Bill Maher closed out his latest show from Friday night in his closing monologue, talking about Blake Shelton and Gwen Stefani and their impending nuptials as this symbol of reconciliation between red and blue amidst this acrimonious election, calling them Rodeo and Juliet. He's a good old boy who sings about trucks and beer and she's the pop princess, hollaback girl from California.

And we need that marriage to work for America, right? Yes, yes, yes. As a symbol that we can come together with this closing sentiment that actually no president can unite us, but that we must unite ourselves. Yeah, and it comes down to that question I have for progressives

who are still feeling like they want to kind of, yes, we need to push for policies that are, that are inclusive and that can help make some substantive change. Um, but when you, instead of shaming people who voted for Trump for whatever reason, um, I would suggest, uh, looking to bridge the gap and, and, you know, because it comes down to this. Do we want to be right or do we want to be effective? Do we want to be the ones that are superior or do we want to be the ones that build a better world? And to me, that's what it comes down to.

I think that's what you're speaking to. And I also wanted to say that, you know, you change your entire, you pivoted in your podcasts. You took your podcast that was going very well, doing well for you. You didn't have to do anything. You could have stuck with the interview and you decided to tackle some really thorny issues

and get into some political discussions that are not necessarily, a lot of people would tell you not to have done that. And you decided to do that. And I think that that helped. Yeah. Well, I hope so. I mean, I struggle with this a little bit.

Like we were talking before the podcast, there's certainly more that I could have done, but I felt strongly about making this pivot. And the pivot has been at my peril. I know that I've lost listeners and followers as a result of it. Plenty of people have freely left their one-star reviews on Apple Podcasts to voice their displeasure with me broaching politics on the show. But I felt strongly that I wanted to have these kind of conversations, and I don don't wanna be somebody who's shying away from them.

And I understand that some might find it divisive or unpalatable because it doesn't match their worldview. And that's okay. Yeah. That's okay. I mean, my hope is that, you know, look, I'd be delighted if I never had to talk about national politics again. Maybe this is the last one that we'll ever do.

Right. But in the meantime, this is the last one that we'll ever do. Right. But in the meantime, this is what's going on in the world. This is what's top of mind for me. And I think having meaningful conversations that are laced with nuance are important as a prerequisite for us moving forward as a healthy country. And I stand by it,

even if the show has shrunk as a result of it. I don't know. I mean, there's a lot of people who've celebrated the fact that I'm doing this as well. I don't know how it all balances out, but I understand that it's controversial. And controversy is not something that I've ever courted on this podcast. I've always used this modality as a way to reach the most number of people and to appeal to people of all walks of life. And I maintain that desire, but it can't come at the cost of speaking my personal truth, whether you disagree with it or not.

What do you think? You said you could have done more. Like, why do you have that feeling still? Well, you can always do more, right? I mean, I wasn't out, like I have friends on social media that post constantly their political opinions. And I made the decision not to go overboard on that and to choose my

moments and to focus the advocacy that I wanted to do in front of this microphone rather than in visual form on Instagram, because I think it allows the space for that kind of nuance that it requires. But I think looking back, like, should I have done more? Like Trapper, my stepson, worked the polls for three days straight at our polling station. Like I could have done that. Thank you, Trapper. There are other things I could have done. Yeah, it was great. But you're doing this. I mean, you have a big platform and you're using it in that way that is inclusive as well as influential. them in. I want to be able to be truthful and honest. I don't want to be editing myself or

operate from a fearful place that I might say something that will upset somebody because the minute I do that, this whole thing is dead. It has to be a forum for open, unbridled discussion. Yeah. And if you're posting kind of a photo of yourself that has only one interpretation, I think that gets in the way of a more influential message. Well, everybody has their own form of advocacy. And I think there are people, you know, there's something, every, you know, like the people that go out and just push it hard with their political view,

we need those people, whether they're on the right or the left, like that's fantastic. You know, knock yourself out. It's just not, it's not, I don't think it's the, it's the way that I operate. So I would prefer to do it, you know, the way that we're doing it right now. Well, I think, um, we talked about this over the phone this morning, but like the woke ultra progressive side, they're really good at flagging an issue that needs, that isn't getting the attention it deserves and needs to be dealt with. BLM is a great example of that,

but very good at flagging the issue. But to solve an issue, you need more people than that. And I think that's where your influence comes in handy. Like you're hoping to solve problems, not just identify problems. Yeah, and I think the unbridled, super hardcore, whether it's progressive or conservative, that's what gets the issue on the table

to decide in the first place. You need that groundswell of support in order for it to be on the legislative docket to begin with. But then when you confront the process of actually trying to pass legislation or get things done, there does have to be the ability to work with others. And I think that Biden is somebody who understands that.

I agree. And then I think we should just, before we move on completely, Kamala, we got to talk about Kamala, the first woman, the first black woman, the first South Asian woman. I mean, there's so many firsts with Kamala, we gotta talk about Kamala, the first woman, the first black woman, the first South Asian woman. I mean, there's so many firsts with Kamala. California's own, our senator that becomes the vice president. What are your thoughts on that? I mean, what's not to love about that? It's unbelievable.

That video of her when she's calling Joe and saying we did it and she's in her running gear, it's fantastic. And the impact of that on young girls, young girls of color, particularly as a source of inspiration is really a beautiful thing. And the fact that she came out and did her speech in all white, you know, the uniform of the suffragettes, it's like, it's a really cool symbolic thing. And I think she's going to be great. My boys are excited because they kind of know Doug a little bit because they know Doug's kids. So they're like, Doug. And Doug's a Jew. We got a Jew close. That's the

closest a Jew's been since Henry Kissinger. Which is hilarious, right? So Aviator Nation it is. right? So Aviator Nation it is. Yes. I'm a fan. I thought I liked her early on in the democratic process and then somehow her campaign stumbled. But she's a great speaker. I think she's going to be able to prosecute some cases for issues that are really important. She can really be influential in the way she presents evidence and she's a brilliant mind. And I'm very excited to have her in there. And so that's pretty exciting. And we'll see what happens. But thank you all for voting. And the one thing I'll say to your more conservative listeners is not trying to convince anyone how to vote. But I mean, I do, but not trying to convince you how to think, how to think.

But the one thing I would ask you to do next time an election comes up, and this is for everybody, is to consider the environment first. Because you're listening to Rich Roll. You care about animal welfare. You care about plant-based eating, most Roll. You care about animal welfare. You care about plant-based eating, most likely. You care about these issues. The environment is critical. To me, it's the issue that we can use to unite the most people and pass some really important policies that can be good economically and environmentally and address climate and justice at the same time. And we need more people.

And so if I, conservative listeners, I would just ask you to really examine the environmental policies of the people you're voting for at all times. And that should be number one, I think, for everybody who's voting. We should all be doing that. I know that's my number one issue. And I would encourage it. I think it should be everyone's number one issue because of where we are at with climate change, because of where we're at with the clock ticking. And I would really suggest to people out there that are kind of in the middle to look at that. Yeah, I would second that.

I mean, I would have preferred a candidate who was more progressive on climate issues than somebody like Joe Biden, somebody who's really on top of it, somebody who is very single-minded about how important that is. But here we are. And I was glad that when he got up and gave his speech that he included climate change in his address. Yeah. And I think that's important and gives me hope. Whoever it was, it wouldn't have been good enough for Greta. Certainly not.

Definitely not. All right. Well, let's take a break and we'll come back on the environmental tip. We have a few things to share and we're going to do a little show and tell, a couple wins of the week and take some listener questions. Beautiful. Stick around. And we're back.

Let's kick it off with a little Show and Tell, shall we? I'm very excited for you. This is a great day. I can't think of anything to show and tell right now. Oh, come on. So today is November 9th. We're recording this on Monday. This will go up Thursday morning.

At that point, the book will be in the wild. It's called Voicing Change. I talked about it. We don't have to go on and on about it because we shared about it the other day, but the book is officially available through our website, richroll.com slash VC to purchase. We're shipping globally.

I'm very excited. We're actually a little ahead of the curve because we already have shipped out some of these books and I'm starting to see them pop up on social media. People seem to be enjoying it. Really proud of it. Basically, it is inspiration and timeless wisdom lifted from the podcast. We feature 50 guests over the years with beautiful photographs and we've transcribed some of the more impactful aspects of those conversations and distilled them down with essays. And just, I'm really proud to be able to share

what I think is a really fair and beautiful representation of what I strive to do here on the show. And I'm excited that it's now in the wild. It's a beautiful book. It's on my coffee table. Thank you, Fon. And you also had that great piece in Esquire. We referenced it before. And you were, I mean, that's a that great piece in Esquire. We referenced it before.

And you were, I mean, that's a big deal. Like Esquire's, right? It was a big deal. I mean, first of all, shout out to Jeff Gordoneer. Okay. Who connected the dots there with the editor at Esquire. Cause I reached out to him. I'm like, I got this book coming out.

I should probably explore some press stuff. I don't have a publicist or anything like that. And he made some introductions and the editor at Esquire was like, yeah, we'd love to hear from Rich. And then I was like, oh shit, I have to write something. And of course I waited until the last minute, the assistant editor was like sending me emails. Are you going to write this thing? I create these deadlines so that I'm pulling my hair out thinking, what is it that I could possibly say? And intimidated because of the literary tradition

of Esquire. Like I start thinking about Horace Thompson and like all these people that have written for that publication over the years. And yeah, exactly. And got it together though and shared that piece and they ran it. Like 4,000 words, right? It was a big, well, here's what's funny.

They said, I said, well, you know, what's the deadline and like how many words? And they were like, 800 words, 800 to 1,000. Right. So I write the thing, it's 2,000 words. Okay. And I thought, I'm not going to edit it down. Like I'll send it over. If they want to cut it, I'll cut it down.

But I thought that the version I sent them was the better version. And it was digital. It wasn't going in the print magazine anyway. And they liked it. I mean, we did a round of edits and trimmed it up a little bit. But yeah, I mean, that's no small thing for me.

Like it's a big deal for me. Yeah, it's a big deal. I mean, you publish in the New York Times and then outside all the time. But never Esquire. I've never written for a magazine before. Esquire's never had me. Yeah.

I might know someone over there. You might know a guy. But yeah, I was gonna ask you, can I add magazine editor to my bio now? Not editor, writer. Right, that's what I meant, writer, magazine writer. Which is better, you know, like, yes, you can. And what's fun is we had this discussion of the writing process, right?

Like a quick back and forth and just like how the low level torture that it is. Right, right, right, right. It's so painful. I mean, the truth is I set aside an entire day to write that. I think I worked on it for like 10 hours straight and maybe got up twice to go to the bathroom or something. Yeah. Because that's what it takes. And- Did you outline it?

When you're in the, I kind of threw an outline together, but you go through that phase of just wanting to pull your hair out and kill yourself because you can't make it good and you don't see the way through. Well, the first draft's never really good. It's terrible. And no matter, yeah, but no matter how many times you tell yourself it doesn't matter, you know, that the first draft is terrible

and no matter how many times you've seen it through to its conclusion and been proud of what you created, when you're in the weeds like that, it never gets easier. No, we have a really nice process happening at my place where the first, when I'm doing the first draft or starting a project, I'll write all day

and for a couple of days and whine, you know, periodically over the course of the day, how horrible it is, this is a bad one, this one's not gonna be any good. And I say that over and over again. And then my wife's like, but you always say that. And then the next day is the time I'm kind of rewriting it.

But you don't understand this time. Yeah. It's different. I go through it. I do three major passes. And by the third one, I'm like, you know what? This one's pretty good. Right. Because writing is rewriting.

That's the process. You outline it. And April rolls her eyes. You address it. And April tolerates all these discussions. But that's how it does feel though. It does feel like this one sucks. And sometimes they're not as good. I mean, the big thing for me is,

you have this vision of what it's going to turn out to be before you start. And it very rarely hits that mark. And that's okay. That's the process. But like, I think that's where the torture lies and this is how I envisioned it. This is what I wanna say. And then getting there,

especially when you're doing a work of journalism and you're trying to find the evidence to get you there, that's the work and it's hard to get there. And that's the torture. Yeah, I mean, with this thing though, it's a little bit like if you're doing a journalistic piece, you kind of know what the story is. You try to refrain from having a thesis, but you're out like sourcing all the information that you can to establish the facts of what is actually occurring and then supporting that idea. With this,

they're like, well, what do you want to write about? It's worse. It's harder. Yeah. That blank page is just the most terrifying thing that there is for some reason. I'm at war with a novel right now. It's not pretty. And part of my thing going in was like, oh, I wanna write something that will connect and unite people. I want it to be well-written so that I'm in service to the standards of something like Esquire that I aspire to be able to write at that level.

I want it to get a bunch of traffic and then maybe they'll ask me to write something else. And as soon as I turned it in, I'm like, do I wanna go through that again? Exactly, welcome to my life. And you're rewarded with another assignment and then you have to go through it again. First of all, you achieved all those things, I'm sure.

And second of all, yes, I've realized that a long time ago that I chose the one profession where you always have homework. There's always a homework assignment. That's the whole life is a term paper. This podcast is similar in that regard. There's always homework. There's always preparation.

It's like, I'm constantly doing homework. I mean, I love it, but it's still, it's work. There's a question down the line that we can, when we, one of the listener questions, we can kind of tap into that. But our friend Rob Bell has a writing class. So for all, the reason I wanted to ask you about the writing process

and to have this discussion with you is just for your listeners that are curious about that process. And if you are, Rob Bell, who's a friend of the show, guest a couple of times, right? Yeah, he's been on a couple of times. Amazing, amazing individual. And one of the most gifted speakers and writers that I know.

Like he has such a command over not just the English language, but how to communicate effectively with people. And he does it in such a seemingly effortless way that it almost inspires rage inside of me because his facility is so profound. You know what I'm talking about? Like he's so good at it. You know what? Why isn't he running for office?

I'm like, how do you do that? He should run for office. Can we get a Rob Bell for Senate campaign? He'd be great. But he's got a writing class coming up. It's gonna be a Zoom session. I think they're two hour sessions. He's got like a list of dates on his website.

You can link to that, right? Yeah, we'll link it up in the show. I think it's just robbell.com. I'm thinking I should probably attend it and then I'll report on it to you. One thing that I did do was take his, it's not a course, he's got an online, it's essentially an audio book.

I think it's like eight hours long. And I believe it's called Something to Say. And it's basically him taking you through the entire process of how you put together an oral presentation, a talk essentially, and how he thinks about that and how he assembles his ideas to create a structure so that he can most effectively communicate what it is that he's trying to say. And I would say, as somebody who writes a lot and also does a fair amount of public speaking, it was the most helpful and profound,

it's not really a lecture, but series or- Seminar. Seminar. Yeah, that's a good word on how to do this thing. And I can't recommend that enough. I don't know if it's still up on his website. I think it was a couple of years ago that I listened to it, but I found it to be unbelievably helpful. And I think just, it's all on Zoom, right? So is he capping the number of people that can take it? You know, I didn't ask him.

I haven't called him or texted him telling him I'm gonna take it yet. I will do that. All I know, it's two hours, it's 50 bucks. It's gonna be entertaining and informative. I can guarantee that. All I know, it's two hours, it's 50 bucks. It's gonna be entertaining and informative. I can guarantee that. 100%. And the reason I'm interested in it is like, I always, you know, I was,

when I first started out the craft of writing, I was trying to write screenplays at the same time as I was breaking into writing stories for magazines. And I read a lot about the screenwriting process, but I didn't really in the journalism process. And I'm not one of those guys that dives into the craft, really. But now, I guess I'm at the stage in my career that I am interested in that. And I follow a guy, Chip Scanlon has a newsletter or an email newsletter that he sends out. I can't recommend that highly enough.

He talks to really accomplished journalists and he's a writing instructor and teacher and was a journalist for a while. And that's really helpful. And then I'm interested in writing classes. I wanna learn more about storytelling now that I'm kind of like mid-career. I don't know why, but I'm just like attracted

to the philosophy of it more than I was kind of coming up. Yeah. Well, take the class and then come back and report back. You got it. Is he doing it alone? Is this one of the things that he's doing with Elizabeth Gilbert? Seems like it's not, it's not Liz. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Cause I know that they did a little bit of a tour together and it was all about like how to, you know, kind of cultivate your creative. They've done a lot of creativity workshops together. Yeah, and like they'll do- And we went to their live show. We did.

Remember that at Largo? Yeah, yeah, yeah, fabulous. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Shout out Rob. What's up, dude? Shout out Rob, shout out Liz. While we're on the subject of show and tell, I think you got something else you wanna show us, right?

Oh, yeah. So my Instagram wanted me to try Baruchas. So congratulations. Congratulations to Darren. You got delivered the ad of Darren explaining to you. Congratulations, Darren. The benefits of Baruchas. The algorithm has made me buy these.

Yeah, well, that kid from those three twins from the social dilemma that are standing behind your avatar and deciding what to deliver to you, we're like, well, this guy's co-hosting the Rich Roll podcast. I think he'd really jump on the Verruca thing. But then the other guy's like, yeah, but he's not nearly as healthy

or like he's not quite there. That's all the more reason why maybe he needs it. Yeah, he needs Verruca. We're helping him, and he needs to be helped. Cha-ching. So there you go. So I saw this thing. You got the trail mix. I loved the post. It was promoted, true, but I didn't click on it.

And, you know, I love the idea of this kind of wild, it looks like a Brazil nut, kind of, but tell me. Have you never tried these? I've never heard of them or tried it before. Oh, wow. Well, crack it open. I mean, first of all, this is the trail mix, which people that know the show

and listen to my podcast with Darren, apologies, because we talked about this at length when he was on, but there's the nut, which is in there, but then there's also, the Baruca is like this nut that comes inside a very hard shell. It's like the size of a tangerine

and you need this like heavy duty machinery to crack it open. But the shell, when you kind of take like pieces of the shell, you can actually eat it and it's pretty delicious and super nutritious as well. It's good. So it's pretty good, right? It's like this unbelievable trail mix.

Tastes like a peanutty thing. And the nuts are smaller than a Brazil nut. They taste more like a peanut than a Brazil nut, but they have a pretty rich flavor. And this is the shell? Exactly, yeah, it's like that's a flaked off piece of the shell itself. Where did he find this?

Through his superfood hunting in the Brazilian Cerrado. Cerrado, I think is how you say it. And he connected with these indigenous farmers there who've been growing these nuts forever and created a coalition of them to supply this product to markets across America. And I think it's a great product. And they're really, they're healthy. I eat

them all the time. I love them. High in antioxidants, lots of micronutrients. Really? Yeah. What's your verdict as a first time imbiber? Sweet, nutty, crunchy, definitely more peanutty. Yeah. It's like a better- Very sweet, the shell is very sweet. It's like a better tasting peanut. Oh, yeah. And that could almost be like a granola. Like you could put almond milk over that and eat it.

Have it for breakfast? Like a breakfast. Or just put it in some vegan yogurt, Coco Yo. Yeah, exactly, exactly. I love it. I mean, I'm always looking for kind of snacks like that for the trail or for whatever. That's beautiful.

There you go. Yeah, Darren, thank you. And thank you, Instagram algorithm and Zuckerberg. I think I might have like a vanity URL, barucas.com slash richroll or something like that. Oh, really? But we'll put it in the show notes. Okay.

Yeah. And that happened because you were delivered an ad on Instagram. That happened because I was delivered an ad on Instagram and said be one of the first people to try this. And which is like, I'm like, I like to be one of the first to try something. I found myself vulnerable to Instagram advertising.

I bought a couple things. Yes. Based on ads that were delivered to me. But then what I found is that when you buy the thing, like I bought a sweater the other day. You bought a sweater on Instagram. Birdwell Britches sweater. What are those called where they button down the front? Cardigan. Yeah, cardigan. You don't need a cardigan. I liked it though. And I bought it. And then suddenly I got flooded with cardigan ads. And I was like, but I already bought the cardigan. That's where I know AI just isn't where, you know.

I'm not worried about AI yet because it should know that I've scratched that itch by now. But what time of day, I wonder, are we most vulnerable to Instagram ads where we actually make the purchase? I don't know, but I'm sure the algorithm knows that, right, at this point. It's logging, it's logging.

Anyway, Darren, I have not met you, but I think that you should know that your investment in the Instagram ads that your company bought may be paying off. Yeah, I'm surprised you guys haven't met, actually. No. With all the time you spend- You gotta bring them out to the reef.

Point doom. We'll make that happen. Yeah. All right, so what else do we got here? gotta bring them out to the reef. Point Doom. We'll make that happen. Yeah. All right, so what else do we got here? Let's do wins of the week. Wins of the week. We got to one's obvious, and we already talked about it.

Well, yeah, but I wanna promote my 2020 Triple Crown. Right. I had one other thing. Where's my- Talking about the Lakers. Lakers, Dodgers. Right. If I can find my mask. Lakers, Dodgers. Right. If I can find my mask.

I have a Dodgers mask. If I can find it. I might have put it aside now. It's got it right here. And Joe Biden. So that's what we were talking about. So my son was born. And I thought, what's a better way for Zuma to enter the world than to have the 2020 Triple Crown,

Lakers, Dodgers, and old Joe? Old Joe. All right, that's your win of the week. That's my win of the week. Awesome. My win of the week should be obvious. It's Chris Nickick, the breath of fresh air we all need right now.

Yeah, great story. So Chris, for those that don't know, became the first athlete with Down syndrome to complete an Ironman this past weekend. He completed Ironman Florida and Panama City on Saturday. And it's just so inspirational. This 21-year-old kid who earned a Guinness world record for finishing this race, which is really historic.

He did it 14 minutes prior to the cutoff time. So it was a nail biter all the way down to the end. No previous person with Down syndrome has ever even attempted an Ironman. So that puts him heads and shoulders above anybody else in his category. And this is a kid who survived two heart surgeries, has been in seven schools, has had all these

ear canal reconstructions, like it's been a road to get him to this place. Even walking was a, like he learned to walk late, right? Using a walker and all? Yeah, exactly. And what's beautiful about it is that it's all founded in this idea of being 1% better every single day. And I think it was his dad or somebody said,

just try to be 1% better every single day. And he kind of cottoned onto that mantra and that's become like his sort of thing now. He had a t-shirt, his kit says 1% better and all that kind of stuff. Website too. And, you know, in a moment of, you know, despite what's going on with the election, like hearkening back to what we were talking about earlier,

like this divided culture that we're in, like this is like the symbol of inclusion and leadership and normalcy that we can all get behind. So congrats to Chris. It's so inspirational. And it would be great to get him on the podcast. I'm gonna see if I can make that happen. Congratulations, Chris.

What an incredible accomplishment, man. I mean, what a beast going- Unbelievable. A full Ironman. And sometimes the people that are out there the longest actually are the biggest champions. Of course. To keep fighting.

It's so much harder. It's harder. There's more pain that you fought through. The elite guy's out there eight hours and he's out there twice as long. Yeah. And it's an incredible accomplishment. So congratulations to Chris and his entire family.

That's a tearjerker, that one. Very much so. Yeah. All right. A few teachable moments before we pivot into listener questions. Sure. A couple of quickies. I'm not going to belabor them too much.

Center for Food Safety sent out a press release that a federal court declared genetically engineered salmon to be unlawful. So the story dates back to a 2016 lawsuit where the FDA had approved a genetically modified salmon to be grown in aquaculture farms, I believe off the East Coast. I have to check that. But basically, it was engineered to grow twice as fast as the typical Atlantic salmon. It included DNA from the Atlantic salmon, the Pacific king salmon, and Arctic ocean eel pout, whatever the hell that is. And so they created this thing to grow faster, obviously to make more money. And the FDA approved it, even though there was real concern about could it leak out? That's what happens with aquaculture. Sometimes fish do get out when you're trying

to harvest it. The idea is that this will be restricted to these farmed fisheries, right? And there's no connection between those and our natural waterways. Right, but I don't know where these farm fisheries were, if they were land-based or not, that was the idea. If it was land-based, that's different,

but even then, you can't guarantee that a fish will never wind up. And if it's in a river, that's different. But even then, you can't guarantee that a fish will never wind up. And if it's in a river, that's where salmon goes. Nature always finds a way. Nature always finds a way. So it's like the Frankenstein fish was – the lawsuit finally was ruled in favor of Earth Justice and Center for Food Safety. am in favor of open water aquaculture because the way i see it is it is a way to reduce the pressure on natural uh tuna populations and and salmon populations the two most plated fin fish in the world are tuna and salmon and if we can avoid uh going in and harvesting those populations

you have a better opportunity for their predators to eat, especially when it comes to salmon. We're talking about orca in the Pacific Northwest and elsewhere. So I'm in favor of open water aquaculture. I think it's one of Paul Hawkins' solutions. It's a drawdown solution for climate change. I am in favor of it, especially when it's paired with kelp growing and oysters and that kind of stuff.

I mean, there is- How do you define aquaculture? A fish farm, any sort of a water-based farm, but open water aquaculture is different than how they, so a lot of the bad salmon farms that have caused real problems are so close to shore that they end up polluting the entire coastline. And especially in Chile, there are some bad examples there.

Scotland too. But in the way they're trying to do them now with making sure there's current that's coming through so the nutrients don't, so you don't just have a bunch of fish poop everywhere basically. You don't overcrowd the pens. You can do things that are more humane. You can do things that are more natural and that don't negativelycrowd the pens. You can do things that are more humane. You can do things that are more natural

and that don't negatively affect the ecosystem. So there are examples of that in Hawaii, Kampachi Farms in Hawaii, Kampachi Farms in Baja. It could be a solution as we get more and more people on planet earth. And it could be a food solution that is positive going forward. I've written about it before.

It's in that pokey story that we talked about before. But when it comes to genetically modified food, I'm not a hundred percent against it. There was the Hawaiian papaya was saved with a genetically modified papaya that saved the entire industry back in the day. But that came out of the University of Hawaii. It was not driven by a business model.

It was driven by scientists trying to save individual farmers, family farmers on the big island. Were the genetic modifications made to render it more pestilent resistant? More resistant to a specific infestation, a specific pest that was just decimating papaya trees on the big island. Right.

And so. By creating a hybrid with like mouse eyeballs or something like that. I don't think mouse eyeballs were involved, but like I understand why people hate that stuff, but I'm not like, I'm not an all or nothing guy with any solution, but when it comes to creating an animal, I am hell bent against fucking with DNA to create an animal.

There's such a hubris built into that. I mean, in this particular case, it had to do, I mean, the district court for the Northern District of California ruled that the FDA violated core environmental laws in approving this as a violation of the Endangered Species Act. And my understanding is that it tracks back to their inability to establish that it wouldn't cause harm, right? And they're just kind of, the FDA was saying, there's no indication that it's going to cause harm, but that's very different from establishing that it won't. Right, there's a human hubris is a perfect way to say it.

And that hubris is just like, it's not a problem. Like, we'll just, like- We'll deal. I mean, if history tells us anything, that it's that these things go sideways in a way that you couldn't predict. Yes, you should always beware the unintentional consequences of good intentions. Like that's always the deal.

The second one, a rewilding proposition passed in Colorado, Prop 114 to reintroduce wolves to the Rocky Mountains in Colorado. It's very exciting. For those who don't know, wolves were basically all but extinct based on settlers moving to the West in 1920, I think. Between 1915 and 1920, there was a real effort to try to kill wolves because they would endanger the livestock and kill the livestock. And so there were no wolves really in the West for a long time.

Yellowstone Park started reintroducing them in the Clinton administration. And it's been such a success. It's created healthier elk herds. It's changed the course of rivers. It's been a hundred. And the wolves have really taken, they found wolves, I think, up in Canada,

the Arctic regions of Canada, and they brought them down and they did a very real careful job on, I mean, top shelf rewilding project. There's a book called American Wolf, which is absolutely fantastic, that really handicaps that. And it follows some amazing charismatic wolves and some great scientists. Highly recommend that book. Anyway, that's been a success. There's pressure now to take the wolves,

the American wolf off, the gray wolf off the Endangered Species Act because some ranchers still don't like wolves there because they will come at livestock. But if they do take down livestock, that rancher is compensated. They still wanna kill the wolf afterwards. There's a thing about the wolf. The revenge. The revenge impulse. But Colorado doesn't have wolves.

Idaho has them now, Montana has them, and Wyoming has them. So what is the logistical process of introducing these to Colorado look like? It's a good question. I think they'll probably, what happened in Wyoming is they took a population that was wild and they reintroduced them and had them in a certain area. And eventually they denned up and they had litters and they were monitored and they were chipped and they could be tracked.

Right. And I would imagine the same thing is going to happen. The reason there's 6,000 wolves now started in Wyoming and they're in Montana and they're in Idaho, they're somewhere in Utah. That's all, a lot of that is because, not all, but a lot of that is because of the success of the Yellowstone Project

because wolves have their territories. And so Colorado is gonna have them. And the point is, is that having an apex predator in a vicinity is good for the ecosystem. It's scientifically proven, it's scientifically sound. And I think that's the goal here is to reintroduce the apex predator. Right, that's cool.

It's cool. It's really cool. Have you been to Wolf Connection out here? No. Do you know about this place? No. It's a wolf sanctuary. It's maybe hour and a half, two hours outside of town, like kind of on the way to Vegas.

Okay. I can't remember exactly where it is. But it's this organization. It's mainly this one dude. I can't remember his name, but he's got all these wolves and he takes care of them. And he takes them in when they, I don't know what the process for that is. And he's got this like kind of educational arm

where they do tours. And Mathis, our daughter, many years ago, she was like obsessed with wolves and we did her birthday party there. And we took all these kids there and spent this entire day with the wolves. And it was unbelievable. Is it like a recovery project?

I know Rogan's like a fan. He's been out there a couple of times. He's posted about it. Is it like a rescue project? I know Rogan's like a fan. He's been out there a couple of times. He's posted about it. Is it like a rescue for people that had wolves and couldn't handle them or something? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Some of it is that. Some of it is that.

Oh, that's cool. But it's kind of magnificent. And if you enjoyed that book, which I haven't read yet, I'm gonna check out if that spoke to you. You would, I'm sure, enjoy checking that out as somebody who just did an animal tracking workshop. I did. What? I did. What is that? You come in today and you're like, I did this thing. I was like, don't tell me anything more. Just wait until the podcast because I need to hear about

this. So Saturday morning, I left Santa Monica at a quarter to six in the morning and drove to the Cuyama Valley, which is in this Los Podres behind Ojai in the mountain valley there. I came through from the five. So I actually drove through 30 mile blowing snowstorm because we got some weather here. And by the time I got there, Biden had been declared. It was like very metaphorical. But the reason I was out there was to take this workshop, but actually is an evaluation too. And so these experts in animal tracking,

that is a specific tradition of animal tracking, which I had no idea until I showed up there. It connects to the Bushmen in South Africa, Botswana area. And it's their kind of, it's their oral tradition put on paper by a South African naturalist that had done that years ago. And now it's worldwide. And there's this subculture of people that go out and hang out and have what they call dirt time, where they look at tracks, circle them, and try to decide what animal it is, what foot it is, like where they were going, what the gate was, and try to really analyze what's happening. And this one area in Ventura County, there's a perennial stream

that runs through in a valley, and it's an incredible place for tracks. And we saw mountain lion, black bear track, a lot of bobcat, great horned owl, red tail hawk, cotton tail, jackrabbit. I mean, like 16 mammal species, 18 bird species, something like that, all in this one area. And I did it for a project I'm working on that includes tracking, which I'd never done before. But for me, a lot of my recreation is if it's not running, it's swimming. And often it's swimming and diving. And I love looking at animals underwater.

And so this was an opportunity to kind of do that on land. Big fan of doing that. It was cool. It was a lot of fun. I turned my ankle at one stage and fell in the river, but let's not talk about that. I'm on the DL for about a week or two. Let's talk about only that. I was so mad. I'm like, damn it. I was just getting back in shape. The motivation is in part because it's related to an article that you're writing or something that you're researching right now? It's related to the novel I've been working on. And so I have already written a draft of it. I'm in the second draft now, but I never, there's a character in it that is a tracker.

And like now I'm in, I'm trying to meet, you know, beef up some of the finer points now. Right. The big. Did April go with you? No, because, you know, we had the kid, we have Zuma. So no, she stayed home. She would have loved it.

I mean, it was cold. It was like rainy and sleety and 39 degrees the whole day. But I really enjoyed it. What was scary about it was I get there, I think I'm going to a workshop that becomes an evaluation for people who want a certificate.

And it turns out like it's really, the whole thing is a test. The way they do the teaching is they line up, say a half a dozen of these tracks, they find them and they circle them and they ask you a bunch of questions. Then you write down your answers in your notebook and then they go back through and explain what it is

and why it's, you know, what to look for. So for someone like me who literally didn't study at all and has no idea what they're doing, it was like right away, I'm like- What is this? I don't know. Is that a big foot? It was a human foot.

I got that one right. I got like 50% right. What was the most unusual thing that you learned? Cat felines, their front paws are more compact, their back paws are more elongated. And if you take your thumb out of the equation, a feline track will be asymmetrical. So the second pad will be kind of up. It'll be just like our hands. So if you take your thumb out of the equation, that's how a feline's pads will be. Whereas dogs won't have that asymmetry. And that's how you distinguish feline from canine.

And canines, you might have a little bit of claw. You can see a little claw and it's very rare you'll see that with feline. Because they retract their claws. Retract their claws. And then birds, there's like a K. I think the talon for an owl is kind of more K-shaped. It's not the classic bird foot.

So not all birds have that kind of classic foot. And so learning that was interesting. Yeah. I already knew what rabbit poop looked like. So that wasn't new. Amazing, man. Very cool. Yeah. It was fun. All right. So we are on to listener questions.

Listener questions. Let's do it. Let's do it. Where are we going first? Oh, Frank. I see you, Frank. Frank from SoCal. All right. Howdy, Rich. Howdy, Adam. Hope you guys are doing well. I'm Frank, and I'm calling from Southern California. My question is for both of you. Well, first of all, before I get into that, congratulations, by the way. I think what you guys are doing is such a benefit, and I'm so thankful that I have this as a resource. I think it's incredibly valuable to most people to have this kind of guidance available to them.

And podcasts in general has just been a great resource for me. My question is, I find myself struggling sometimes. I have a thirst and a desire for self-improvement. It leads me down a lot of different rabbit holes. Many of them result in a beneficial change and it's tangible in my life the tribal battles that are going on in the environment that I'm exploring. And I almost have to distance myself from it so that I don't get caught up in the fray. As a result of that is I've deleted some of my social media accounts, Instagram and Facebook in particular, so that I am not distracted throughout the day with these that you utilize to kind of keep you focused on your journey or your exploration or whatever it is that you're trying to achieve without getting caught up in the side play and the battles, especially, you know, given the election, you know, we're all being inundated with ads and all of this negativity. And I really want to protect myself from that. And I'd really appreciate hearing your thoughts on that. Hmm. Thank you, Frank. Not only is that a great question, I think it's something that we're all grappling with.

I feel like you answered your own question in part, like you've already enacted some roadblocks between you and whatever it is that's triggering you. And I think that's a great start. From my own perspective, I try to pay attention to when I stumble across something and I have an emotional reaction to it. That's usually a pretty good indication that that's going to lead to me losing a little self-control over how I'm digesting information. And my overall rule, and I wrote about this in that Esquire piece,

is to try to control the controllables, let go of things that you don't have control over, and understanding that not every issue needs to be your issue just because it is an issue and it is out there. And as much as I applaud your curiosity and your quest for knowledge and understanding that's leading you down these rabbit holes, it's important to self-regulate around that and to erect healthy boundaries. And that requires a little bit of self-inquiry

to understand when it is that it becomes unhealthy. Because part of it, of course, like intellectual investigation is part of it, of course, like intellectual investigation is part of what's being human. And I think there's something laudable about that, of course. But once it tips into you getting triggered in a certain way and whether that means you're engaging with social media and getting involved in arguments, I don't know,

you were a little vague about that, obviously that's gonna throw you off kilter. And if you find yourself powerless to erect those healthy boundaries, say like, oh, these are the hours that I use my phone and these are the ones that I don't, I've removed these apps from my phone, I've gray scaled it,

or all these other kind of prophylactic things that we can do to try to protect ourselves a little bit, that short of that, like you've got to just put it aside. And there are certain people that go to great lengths because they feel so powerless around this. Like I know people that have lock boxes in their houses that have timers on them and they can put their phone or their iPad or their computer in there and put a timer on it. And you're just unable to access it for a set period of time. Like I know people that do that. There's also all kinds of apps out there that will limit your screen time and like lock your

phone down for set periods of time. And that way it makes it impossible for you to be your own worst enemy. I like that. There's one called Focus Lock. I'm gonna try that. And basically it will hide all your downloaded apps for a certain set period of time. And then when that time lapses, they appear like magic. You know, I think there's a variety of apps out there like that. So those would be, you know, kind of the last ditch efforts

when you just feel like things are totally out of control. But I think from an internal point of view, it's about, you know, kind of calibrating yourself so that you don't need to use those things, right? Like, so if you're paying attention, if you're interconnected enough, you can feel when it doesn't feel right. And you have to have the wherewithal to say, this is not in service to me. And to put it aside, a book that I would recommend that you read is Digital Minimalism by Cal Newport. He was a guest on the podcast. We went into this subject at length. And basically, the thesis of which is, we have to take control over our digital lives because when we're not, and most people aren't, they are controlling us. And it's becoming increasingly more and more difficult to erect that distance between ourselves and that device that is so all powerful. If you

watch the movie Social Dilemma, you understand this very well. And it's not necessarily our fault. These things are designed to activate that addictive dopamine response and render us powerless from an addiction perspective. So it's not about self-flagellation or beating yourself up because you find yourself mired in these battles that you don't want to be in, but it is incumbent upon you to take responsibility and to be in control of them rather than allowing them to control you. So that's the most that I could say in the most general terms about how to do this. I think because this peak election moment, we feel like we all have to be so deeply engaged in every nuance of the news cycle. And to step away is to experience FOMO, like, oh my God, the world's happening and I don't know what's going on. But in truth, these things are going to play out whether you're

engaged with them or not. And to understand how little control you have over them, to exert the control that you can, of course, do that, but to separate yourself from the results of that and making sure that you're taking care of yourself because you can't be the advocate or the servant or the seeker that you aspire to be if you're a victim of this kind of scrolling culture that we're in. Yeah, and we all are victims of it to a certain degree.

Yeah, and I relate to this deeply. Like this is a war that I wage with myself every single day. Yeah, but how do you engage? Engaging in the battles is a different thing and I seldom engage in those battles. I never do that. Yeah, because I keep it real simple from my perspective. It's like I might scroll and check it out, but I don't let simple from my perspective. It's like, I might scroll and check it out,

but I don't let it dictate my action. And so it doesn't become that distraction for me really. Just try to keep it as simple and keep it local and keep the focus there. Because ultimately, whoever wins any election, it's not going to be the reason your life is the way your life is. I've just found over time

that getting involved in digital squabbles, not only completely throws me off my kilter, it's just, it's not productive. It rarely results in some meeting of the minds between two people. Exactly. But it does require discipline. Like I'll come across a comment

or somebody saying something about me that's just so utterly false and rife with misinformation about me. And it takes everything in my power to just not engage with that person. But I've learned over time that not only does that like really just ramp up my, I become, I just get into this very heightened emotional state and I become very reactive.

And that person is just seeking attention. Like I'm basically playing into their goal, which is to get me to engage, to get me to get all activated over something. And ultimately there's no winner in any of that. And you end up being the one who suffers the most. You're the depleted one. Yeah. Yeah. I'm with you. Great question. And thanks for the positive vibes, Frank. All right. Next one. I feel like this one is one you can relate to as well, Rich. Hey, Rich. Hey, Adam. Thank you both so much for all the work you

do. My name is Dazen. I'm 24 years old and I'm from South Florida. Over the last two years, I felt this passion growing inside of me for conservation and environmental protection. And I really enjoy photography and being out in nature. Problem is I'm a third year law student who's on the brink of starting his lifelong career. And the truth is, I'm not sure that practicing law is what I want to do. Every day I go into the office and I feel like my creative spirit is being crushed. I feel as though I'm at an inflection point in my life. And then I need to decide where exactly I want to go in my career. I've been working so hard for this degree for seven years now. But also, I'm pretty sure that I want to pursue something that embraces my passions and my creative spirit.

So my question is, how do you rationalize to yourself that taking that first step into the unknown is what is truly good for you? That despite needing what you've worked so hard for all your life, everything is going to be okay. Thank you guys so much for listening and answering questions. I really appreciate you guys. All right. Awesome. Is it Gavin or Davin? I've listened to it a few times and I keep thinking it's Davin. All right. What's up, Davin? If it's Gavin, I apologize. I'll say what's up, Gavin. Exactly. Thank you for your question. I feel highly qualified to answer this one. This one's right up your alley.

I'm a former lawyer myself. I've often thought over the years that I should put together a lecture series and take it across America to visit all the law schools and deliver a keynote on the realities of what's actually entailed in being a lawyer and the difference between your experience in law school versus what it's like when you're in the practicing world.

I wish that I had seen a lecture like that when I was in law school. I might've saved myself a decade, but we're neither here nor there with that. The first thing I would say is, I'm compassionate to your dilemma because I have lived in that very place. The good news is you're only 24 years old.

You've got your entire life ahead of you. And you have the opportunity to be patient with all of this. I think that at this point, you're in your third year of law school. You should see your way through law school. I don't think you should drop out of law school. Like, you're almost done at this point. You should finish your law degree because you're so close. And you don't have to practice if you don't want to practice. Even though I found the practice of law not to my liking and I felt ill-suited to it, I don't regret going to law school. Like law school

taught me a lot. It taught me a manner of thinking, a way of thinking. It taught me how to write clearly and argue a point. And there's a lot to be said for that. And I think that my law degree comes into play today as a podcaster and as a writer and somebody who writes books and is trying to articulate ideas for the world. Like I credit my law school training and experience as a benefit to all of that, even though, you know, I spent a lot of years chasing a career that ultimately was not in service to, you know, who I wanted to be in the world. So I think you can begin first and foremost by perhaps expanding the idea of what a law degree can do for you and what it

can be. It doesn't mean that you have to just go work in a law firm. Perhaps your creativity could be sated by pursuing a legal career in conservation advocacy or in environmental protection or in environmental law. God knows we need some passionate, young, good lawyers who are well-versed in how to best protect our environment. And maybe you could find, you know, I'm sure you've probably already thought about's more personally satisfying outside of the law altogether, I think it's okay to – it sounds like you're already employed because you're saying you're going into the office. So maybe you're working while you're in law school to learn as much as you can in the situation where you are right now. And I've said this before on the podcast, but to live as leanly as possible. Like, I don't know if you've incurred any debt for law school. If you haven't, good for you. If you have, try to pay that debt off as soon as possible. Because the

leaner that you can live, the more opportunities you can make yourself available for. Like you don't wanna get caught up in a situation where you're in service to a certain kind of lifestyle that is befitting like a young lawyer because you're trying to keep up with the Joneses. So you're leasing a certain car or living in a posh apartment, all those kinds of things to the extent that you could cut all of that out and put yourself in a position where at any moment you could just pull the trigger and get out,

like that's the best advice that I could give you. And then again, being patient with yourself. Like you don't, it's okay that you can't see your way through this right now. So I would go easy on yourself and, you know, relinquish that pressure that you're shouldering that you have to have it all figured out right now. You're 24. I didn't figure things out until I was 40. Now, Lord knows that took too long, but I think it's okay to be in this questioning inquisitive phase that you're in right now and just continue to ask yourself those questions. And when you feel an impulse that's pulling you in a certain direction

to say yes to that and to investigate that and indulge that, I think to the extent that you're pulled towards the environment or photography or whatever it is, even though you're in law school and perhaps you're practicing on some level, like carve out the time to continue to fertilize that kernel, that interest,

because you never know where those things are gonna lead you. So whether it's a side hustle or a hobby or just something that you've got on the back burner, stay in contact with that because you never know where those things are gonna lead. And to keep your options open, right? To pay attention to what the world is throwing

in your direction so that you can be open and flexible and able to say yes to certain things when they come in your direction. Really well said. The earth definitely needs a good lawyer. I will say that. And there's interesting philosophy that's kind of happening in law, in international law, where ecosystems have a right to exist. There's like this new kind of area of the law that's being explored. And so that's interesting to me. Like, you know, you can't just log a forest without the forest

approval kind of idea. And it's very out there and abstract, but it's actually taking root. Like a natural resource has its own right to live, its own right, right to survive. And there are lawyers working on that kind of interesting, intricate legal philosophy.

Like in the way that a corporation is given personhood, that a forest could be given personhood. Yeah. To combat that. That's super interesting. Interesting. So there's like, there's like a trip, there's some could be given personhood? Yeah, to combat that. That's super interesting. Interesting. So there's like a trip, there's some stuff in there.

And the Natural Resources Defense Council is a wonderful organization. And what they do is litigate cases in favor of earth and defending the environment. Earth justice is another one. There's places that need lawyers, but that doesn't mean you have to be a lawyer. And the only thing I'd add is just reiterate

what Rich has already said. I mean, I think of the Annie DeFranco song where she said, generally my generation wouldn't be caught dead working for the man. And generally I agree with them. Trouble is you gotta have an alternate plan. And when I first decided to

become a writer, I didn't make a living as a journalist or as a screenwriter or any of that. First, I was writing grants to make a living. So you have to have that plan. You have to figure out what you're going to get into and how you're going to pay those bills and keep the lights on. But that, even if you have to do that and maybe law that's you can never regret the steps you took because they're gonna you're gonna use that training at some point and there's something that you are gonna be able to use from law school from this training from this last seven years of working so hard that's gonna help you keep the lights on until you figure out where you're going next yeah but it sounds to me like you've already made your decision um to me it sounds that way

and you just are looking for the permission and i I give you the permission to, like we both do, to take a step into the direction of your dreams. Do it. You won't regret it. But it won't be easy necessarily. I had a whole eviction notice phase. It's, like it's not always easy. And sometimes you're gonna feel like you made the wrong decision if it goes the way mine went. I mean, I certainly, I felt that way at times. But so you just know that going in. Yeah, I don't think that there will be regret at taking that leap into the unknown.

No. But I think there perhaps will be regret if you don't. And if there's anything that I can tell a young 24-year-old as somebody who's now 54, now's the time. Do it. Like when you're 24, you have so little responsibility in the world

compared to what it's gonna look like later. So if there's ever a time where you're liberated enough to take risks, 24 is the time to do it and seize that opportunity. And like Adam said, that doesn't mean that it's gonna all unfold in front of you and that it's gonna be easy. It may be the hardest thing that you ever do

and you're gonna have to pivot 20 more times. But it does sound like you've already decided this is what you want to do and you're using the word, how do you rationalize it? I think that's the wrong word. I think justify or permit might be a better word to use. So I give you permission to do it. Do it, man. Yeah. And let us know how it goes. But finish law school. Definitely finish law school. You don't quit something.

Don't pull a rip cord on law school when you're in your third year. No, I mean, like I said, like I had to stay in the job I was doing for a period of time to get out. There's a transition period. It doesn't have to be tomorrow that you stop going to that office.

I was still practicing law when I was writing, finding Ultra. Like I, you know, that idea. I was still practicing law when I was writing, finding ultra, like I, you know, I, you know, that idea. That's in the book, I believe. There's a tension between, and we can close with this idea. Like there's this tension between wanting to be responsible. So you're straddling two worlds, right? Like you have your foot in the new thing

and you're still holding onto the old thing. Sometimes that's the responsible choice because you got bills to pay. But at the same time, on an energetic level, there's something about that that inhibits the growth. Because as long as you're holding on to the other thing because you're afraid to let go, because you're uncertain about what the future might look like or what it'll bring, you're actually preventing yourself from really embracing that opportunity. So at some point you do have to let go and not be straddling two different worlds at the same time.

But that's not to say that I'm giving you permission to be irresponsible in that regard. Like their timing is important with these things. Yeah, no, I totally agree. And for me, the timing just becomes, it just like happened like that other work just stopped coming, you know, and like that could happen.

So it's, you know, what's cool is that you're 24 and that it's all out there for you. And it's very exciting time. So try to also enjoy it, even though it's stressful. Cool. All right, one last one. We're going to Joy-Z. Hi, Rich and Adam. This is Michelle. I live in New Jersey. I'm a mom. I'm also a vegetarian

who's trying really hard to be vegan. And I'm excited to try the shreemoo cheeses that I just described to. My question is, did you find your relationship strained, even foreign, or just a lot more work when you had young children? I'm a mom to a one-year-old boy and a three-year-old girl. I work full-time, and my husband cares for our children. We are both amazing, caring, loving, present parents, but we are really struggling to find time for each other, to even show our love to each other. We honestly don't even find any time to talk to each other anymore.

I hope you and Adam can share some advice on how to keep connected during this really difficult time. This also really magical time, having two babies that need our attention and care 24-7. I know this time is temporary and our kids will get older, but our marriage really needs help now. I hope this plays on the air and I look forward to hearing your advice. Thanks so much. Thank you, Michelle. I can hear the strain and the pain in your voice. And, you know, to kind of speak to the first thing you said, I mean, you opened this question by asking if my relationship or Adam's relationship has been strained or more work when you had young children. And it's like, of course, of course it is. I don't know anybody who, you know, wouldn't agree with that, right? Like, how's it going for

you, Adam? You've got a baby right now. We got into it this morning, you know, like over something minor. Part of it is the exhaustion, right? And the tension from just being overtired and overworked. But for the most part, you know, with us, it's going, it's again, the keep it simple formula, but we don't have to. And after listening to this call, I don't think we're gonna have a second child.

Yeah, well, you think when you have the second that it will be double the amount of work, but it's actually exponentially more. Right. I've heard that. It's not a linear equation and it's quite overwhelming. Like my heart goes out to you. I empathize with the situation that you're in. It's a super hard thing to do. And it appears that your relationship is at an inflection point, like this tipping point where you can feel it slipping away. And what's tricky about all of this

is that when you have young children, it feels indulgent to exercise any self-care whatsoever because it's all about the kids. And because it's such a heightened experience, it's very a heightened experience, it's very easy to lose sight of checking in with yourself, let alone checking in with your partner. But I don't have to tell you that the wellbeing of yourself and your relationship

is absolutely critical to the welfare of these young humans that you're trying to raise. And as indulgent as it may strike you, you've got to carve out time to tend to yourself and to tend to your relationship. And it may feel like that's impossible because there is so little time, but it's really a function of priorities. And when you have babies, life is happening to you more than you're kind of in control of your life. And without kind of putting your foot down and erecting, you know, that like sort of setting in motion that priority, you know, creating that priority for yourselves, it's never going to happen. creating that priority for yourselves, it's never gonna happen.

So I think it begins with communication, acknowledging that the relationship is faltering in some regard and having a conversation with your partner about how to get back on track. I think that's the first step. And then saying like every day or today at five or whenever it is that you can work it out, that you're gonna sit down

and it's not gonna be about the kids. It's gonna be about, hey, how are you doing? Like, how are you feeling? Like, how can I help you? How can I be, make your life a little bit easier? How can I be in service to what you're trying to do? And to develop some mutuality around that. Because without that, it's never gonna happen.

Like relationships so easily can become transactional because without that, it's never gonna happen. Like relationships so easily can become transactional in this regard. And it's just about logistics and it's just about the kids. And then you're gonna wake up one day and realize you're not in love anymore. And that's not because something actively occurred that divided you.

It's really like a war of attrition, right? What do you mean by transactional? Transactional in the sense that every conversation and interaction that you have with your partner is about the calendar and like who's taking the kid there and who has to go to the store and running the household, essentially. And you think that you're engaged with your partner, but you're not because what you're overlooking is the most important thing, which is that you're engaged with your partner, but you're not, because what you're overlooking is the most important thing, which is how you're connecting with each other. You think you're communicating because you're talking, but you're not actually

communicating. Yeah. And that, you know, maybe it's impossible for you to have a date night. Like, I don't know the particulars of your circumstances, but you can't tell me that you don't have 10 or 15 minutes to focus on your relationship on the daily. And I think it's critical. Like I've said this before also, but we have this idea that our lives are static. When I was in rehab, a counselor said to me, every thought that you entertain,

every word that comes out of your mouth, every behavior that you engage in is either moving you towards a drink or away from a drink. And I think that's super wise advice that's applicable across the board to life, right? Like we think we're in a static situation. I'm married to this person. I'll always be married to this person. Or I do a podcast. So I'm just going to do this podcast until I die. Like we're always in flux

and things are either growing or they're regressing, right? And the more you can kind of be consciously aware that that static notion is a fallacy, it's an illusion, the more I think you'll be motivated to pay attention to your relationship, to understand that, you know, without that attention, that it's gonna wither.

You know, it just will. And you've gotta have the wherewithal, even when you're exhausted and overwhelmed, to make it a priority. So again, I don't think it's, I think it's less a time management thing and more of a priority thing. If it's important to you and it sounds like it is,

or you wouldn't be asking this question, then you can find the time to do it. And you can impress upon your partner how crucial it is at the same time. And hopefully, he feels the same. Yeah. I don't feel as qualified to answer this since I'm in the foxhole right now.

I think that makes you more qualified. Maybe it does. But I will say that I feel for you and I appreciate the question. And we communicate all the time about as much as possible about how we're feeling just this morning we did, but sometimes we don't. Sometimes we miss it. Sometimes it's impossible to be an amazing parent all the time and be fully present all the time. Right. And that's cool too.

It sounds like there's a pressure there around that. And I try not to put that pressure on myself because I know that I'm, I just try to be as positive and happy and present with Zuma, but I'm not like trying to reach a certain standard outside myself. It sounds like you have high standards for parenting, which is awesome. Your kids are going to benefit from that. But I wouldn't want you to put such a high standard on it

that you guys are both so worried about that, that you're missing just the enjoyment of being. And I think one thing we're doing well right now, we're doing a lot of things well, but one thing that we're doing well is we're not putting a lot of pressure on things. And if something's going on with Zuma, we're not stressing out so hard on it.

And like the first couple of days not withstanding, that's a very stressful kind of time like where all the nurses go. You gotta learn how to roll with the trivialities and not turn them into major crises. Right, we try not to turn anything into a major crisis. But I try to do that in general with my life anyway. It's something that I've just learned is like, is, is,

is keep it calm. And when it comes to real life issues like this, I'm, I'm real good in a crisis because of that. And so not try, try not to make it, make it worse than it is. Cause maybe this, maybe the answer to this is actually simpler than you think. Maybe it's not as bad as you think it is. Maybe it's just that you're not communicating as well as you want or he's not up for the communication. That could be part of it. And you're exhausted. And you're exhausted.

And so maybe the answer to this is a simple thing and a positive thing and it won't be a really hard thing to decode. And I would keep that in mind because there is something to the placebo effect of like mindset and to think, no, you know what? Our marriage might need help right now, but we're not in a critical phase. We're just, I'm seeing it going in a certain direction and it's time to kind of right the ship and to take it lightly. And I think taking it lightly in both the way you parent and the way you work with one another

could be something that I would offer as it could be a positive solution. But again, I'm not trying to speak from any real knowledge base other than just my experience the last 10 weeks. So take it or leave it, please. But yeah, that's my feeling on it. Well, I think that if you feel like

it's beginning to falter, that interrupting that flow with some kind of prophylactic solution is super important. Yeah. And I think that if that means just opening the channels of communication or perhaps that means going to therapy.

Like, I think everybody should go to therapy and everybody should go to therapy before they're in a problem. Yeah. You know, this is how you learn how to communicate effectively and learn how to, you know, understand the signals of your partners.

Like, you know, there's so many things that can be mined from that experience. And, you know, it doesn't have to be, you know, stigmatized and it doesn't have to be stigmatized and it doesn't have to be because you're in a crisis. They're just tools for how to better live together. And in closing, I would say, it's important to understand that this is temporary, like you're in a very heightened situation

and it will get easier. But to not use that idea that it's temporary as an excuse to put off dealing with whatever's going on in your relationship. Like, I think that's sort of an instinct, like, well, this is really hard right now. I know our relationship isn't going great, but let's just get through this.

No, yeah. And then we'll deal with the relationship. I think that's misguided. No, yeah. And then we'll deal with the relationship. I think that's misguided. No, if you know- Because when you get to that point, it may be in a far worse situation and God forbid beyond that point of no repair.

Yeah, if you know it needs to be addressed, then by all means address it. It has to be a priority now. And when in doubt, if all else fails, you can start a podcast with your partner and that will force you to talk to each other. There you go. That sounds very healthy.

This is how Julie and I have our deepest conversations. That sounds very healthy. You know, I thought I was in therapy right now. Twice a month, I come to therapy. It's the Rich Roll Podcast. I don't go that hard on you. No, no, it feels good to talk to you. On that note, let's land the plane.

Is your therapist hard on you? Well, I do group therapy now with a bunch of dudes and a therapist. And I get feedback. I come in and I say, here's what I'm doing. And like, isn't this great? And they're like, really? Like, you know, like, did you think about this?

And I'm like, no, I never thought about that. Like I get called out on my bullshit. And that happens to me in 12 step also. But it's very direct in this therapy group because we just share about what we're dealing with in our lives and as parents and as professionals or what, you know, what we need feedback on. And what's constantly impressed upon me is the extent to which I'm unaware of my blind

spots, which is why you go, right? Like, I don't want to go and get pat on the back. I want to go and, you know, let people know what I'm going through and have them point out to me what I'm not seeing. And I think that's the real value. That's one of the real values in it. Very interesting. I wanna hear about that sometime. But I would also offer one last thing. Have you seen Working Moms on Netflix?

If you've not seen Working Moms on Netflix, it's a hilarious female-driven show created by Katherine Reitman, who's connected the daughter of Ivan Reitman, legendary Hollywood director, and Jason Reitman, a great filmmaker. And she stars, and it's hilarious. It's all about women having babies and navigating life's problems in very, very funny, sarcastic ways. And that could be a good little blow-off scene. I'm watching that with April, and we laugh. It's hilarious. So that could be a good little blow off steam. I'm watching that with April and we laugh.

It's hilarious. So that could be a good little trick. I haven't heard of that. Working moms with an N. All right, right on. All right, we're ending this thing. How do you feel? I feel good.

It's been, man, it's been a long four years. It's been a long four years. And it's been a long two plus hours every time we do these I'm like we're only going to be doing this is going to take an hour and then these things are always like two hours I don't know I think we're both long winded you turned in

2,000 words for 800 I do that all the time yeah alright to be continued two weeks from now in the meantime give Adam a follow at Adam Skolnick I I'm at Rich Roll. If you want your question answered, leave us a voicemail at 424-235-4626. Don't forget to hit the subscribe button on YouTube, Apple, Spotify, wherever you enjoy this podcast. Send us a comment, leave us a review. As always, check the show notes on the episode page at richroll.com. We'll have links

up to everything that we talked about today. And in the meantime, pick up Voicing Change. Yes. God damn it. I worked hard on this book. It's a beautiful book. You gotta get it. And it's something to be proud of. People are enjoying it. Richroll.com slash VC to check that out. Shipping globally. What else? That's serious. I think we said it all.

You said it all. Let's end this. Land the plane. All right. I appreciate everybody who worked hard to put on today's show. Jason Camiolo for audio engineering, production, show notes, and interstitial music.

Blake Curtis for videoing today's show. Jessica Miranda for graphics. Davey Greenberg for portraits. He's taking pictures right now. Davey. Georgia Whaley for copywriting. You could do the rest in your BBC voice. DK for advertiser relationships.

And theme music is always by Ty Trapper and Ari. Thanks for the love, you guys. See you back here in a couple days with another amazing, I don't know who's going up next. We'll figure it out. It's gonna be good though, I promise. Peace, plants. Thank you.