The Rich Roll Podcast - Roll On: Finding Purpose

Episode Date: July 9, 2020

Welcome to the third installment of Roll On—my bi-weekly deep dive into (semi) current events, topics of audience interest, and of course answers to your questions. Serving up co-host duties is Adam Skolnick, an activist and veteran journalist is perhaps best known as David Goggins' Can't Hurt Me co-author. Adam has written about adventure sports, environmental issues and civil rights for outlets such as The New York Times, Outside, ESPN, BBC, Men’s Health and many others; and he is the author of One Breath, which chronicles the life and death of Nick Mevoli, America's greatest freediver. Today's conversation begins with a few exciting announcements: an update on a new book I'm close to completing and a premium subscription offering I am currently contemplating. We then pivot to ruminations on a few noteworthy current events. Adam and I share thoughts on everything from writer’s block and cancel culture to the conspiratorial bent that is shifting the character of certain swaths of the wellness community. We talk Kanye, including my experience attending his Sunday Service. We explore the manner in which people become manipulated by the vicissitudes of the YouTube algorithm—and why we should all be on high alert when it comes to the quality of our media diet. And we each share a few tidbits of good news. We then switch gears to answer a handful of questions submitted by audience members on our Facebook Group page: How do you find purpose? What are the secrets to maintaining goals? How can we be more mindful?  What is the nature of cognitive dissonance and confirmation bias? The visually inclined can watch it all go down on YouTube. And as always, the audio version streams wild and free on Apple Podcasts and Spotify. Finally, I would love your feedback to help inform my thinking on a premium subscription offering (don't worry the podcast will always be free). Let me know your thoughts in the survey pinned to the top of our Facebook Group Page, where you can also submit questions for future episodes. We're also going to create a voicemail for future questions to be read on air. I'm having fun with this new format. I hope you find it equal parts entertaining and informative.  In the words of Guru Singh, right now more than ever we all need less emotion and more devotion. I challenge you to embody this. Peace + Plants, Rich

The Rich Roll Podcast. We're brought to you today by recovery.com. I've been in recovery for a long time. It's not hyperbolic to say that I owe everything good in my life to sobriety. And it all began with treatment and experience that I had that quite literally saved my life. And in the many years since, I've in turn helped many suffering addicts and their loved ones find treatment. And with that, I know all too well just how confusing and how overwhelming and how challenging it can be to find the right place and the right level of care, especially because, unfortunately, not all treatment resources adhere to ethical practices. It's a real problem. at recovery.com who created an online support portal designed to guide, to support, and empower

you to find the ideal level of care tailored to your personal needs. They've partnered with the best global behavioral health providers to cover the full spectrum of behavioral health disorders, including substance use disorders, depression, anxiety, eating disorders, gambling addictions, and more. Navigating their site is simple. Search by insurance coverage, location, treatment type, you name it. Plus, you can read reviews from former patients to help you decide. Whether you're a busy exec, a parent of a struggling teen, or battling addiction yourself, I feel you. I empathize with you.

I really do. And they have treatment options for you. Life in recovery is wonderful, and recovery.com is your partner in starting that journey. When you or a loved one need help, go to recovery.com and take the first step towards recovery. To find the best treatment option for you or a loved one, again, go to recovery.com and take the first step towards recovery. To find the best treatment option for you or a loved one, again, go to recovery.com. We're brought to you today by recovery.com.

I've been in recovery for a long time. It's not hyperbolic to say that I owe everything good in my life to sobriety. And it all began with treatment and experience that I had that quite literally saved my life. And in the many years since, I've in turn helped many suffering addicts and their loved ones find treatment. And with that, I know all too well just how confusing and how overwhelming

and how challenging it can be to find the right place and the right level of care, especially because unfortunately, not all treatment resources adhere to ethical practices. It's a real problem. A problem I'm now happy and proud to share has been solved by the people at recovery.com, who created an online support portal designed to guide, to support, and empower you to find the ideal level of care tailored to your personal needs. They've partnered with the best global behavioral health providers to cover the full spectrum of behavioral health disorders, including substance use disorders, depression, anxiety,

eating disorders, gambling addictions, and more. Navigating their site is simple. Search by insurance coverage, location, treatment type, you name it. Plus, you can read reviews from former patients to help you decide. Whether you're a busy exec, a parent of a struggling teen, or battling addiction yourself, I feel you. I empathize with you. I really do. And they have treatment options for you. empathize with you. I really do. And they have treatment options for you. Life and recovery is wonderful. And recovery.com is your partner in starting that journey. When you or a loved one need help, go to recovery.com. Okay. So, today I'm back with another, I think it's our third edition of Roll On, where I, alongside my co-host Adam Skolnick, journalist, writer, environmentalist, activist, talk about various topical issues of interest and answer

listener questions. Today, I kick off the show with a few exciting announcements for you guys. Pretty pumped up about that. We share ruminations on everything from writer's block, cancel culture, to Kanye West and alternative health. We dissect the varying political ideologies of the wellness community. We explore the ways in which people are so easily swayed by the vicissitudes of the YouTube algorithm, why we should all be on high alert when it comes to the media we consume.

And then in the second part of the podcast, I answer some relatively philosophical audience questions on the subjects of finding purpose, how to better embrace mindfulness, maintaining goals, and how to navigate cognitive dissonance and confirmation bias. I must say I'm really enjoying this new format experiment. I hope you guys are as well. So without further ado, enjoy. Hey, everybody, welcome to the podcast. We're back with another episode of Roll On, our Ask Me Anything format,

where me and my hype man, Adam, Adam Skolnick, Hey, hey. break down a couple topics. We take questions from the listeners. And the idea is just to be a little bit more contemporaneous and free form with this show. So, Adam, how's it going? It's going good, man.

I've had, it's been a crazy last couple of weeks. Yeah. Well, you moved. Moved. We moved in the same building to a slightly bigger place because you know my wife is eight months pregnant almost or i guess seven months and um through the seventh we're in the eighth month now and so we moved to this place that is like so similar to the old place but just like slightly different it's like your mind you're like in the same building yeah so your mind is like a skipped record. You're like in the same building, right?

Yeah. So your mind is like a skipped record. Usually when you move, you want to move to a radically different place. It's like easier to process. But in this case, it's like slightly different. So it's like a trick mirror. We're living in a trick mirror right now. Well, like a parallel universe situation.

We're living in a parallel universe. Well, you're here today. Here. We're going to break it down. Before we get into it, I did wanna make a couple announcements, big announcements I'm very excited about. I have been hard at work for the last several weeks

trying to put the finishing touches on a new book. It's been a while since we put a book out. So super excited about it. It's called Voicing Change. And essentially, it's a beautiful coffee table art book that contains timeless wisdom from the podcast with layouts and excerpts from some of my favorite guests over the years, accompanied by beautiful photographs. And I'm so excited about it. Super proud. How many interviews? We're trying to figure out right now how many, like we have, of course, like I can't put everybody in and this will probably be the first in what

will be a number of volumes because we've kind of got this down and we could put one out potentially every year. So this is just to be considered like the first one. And of course, no matter how well I try to curate it, I'm sure I'll leave somebody's favorite guest out. But right now, I think we have about 50 excerpts in there with some essays that a few people have contributed and it's gonna to be great.

We don't have an official release date yet, but we're looking at around Thanksgiving time, hopefully, depending upon printers and all of that. And you're self-publishing this one, right? We are self-publishing this one, yeah. Congrats, man. And it's looking really beautiful. Can't wait to share more about it. But this is the first time that I've said anything on the podcast about it, but that's what I've been basically spending most of my time doing lately. Yeah. You said you've been writing like 10 hours a day or like hold up in the office.

Yeah. But the problem is that I spent the better part of the quarantine being a complete dilettante until the deadline was just so overwhelming that I was put into a situation where I had to drop everything that I was doing and only write. And for whatever reason, I don't know what it is, man. It took that deadline and the fear of not having it done to get my ass in gear and get this thing finished. That's what deadlines do, right? I know. I wish I could be the person who just works on it two hours a day. But how long has it been since you've been, like, writing that intensively? Long time.

A long time. You know, the first book, the last book book that I did was Finding Ultras. Right. Years ago. Right. I rewrote it a couple years ago. But still, you know, that wasn't like creating a book out of whole cloth. The cookbooks are more like this project in that they're jigsaw puzzles where there's a lot of people involved.

Like I have a whole team of people who are working on this. So there's only aspects of it that are the written word. A lot of it is design and layout and all the like and curating, you know, how we want it to be presented. But, you know, I've want it to be presented. But, but, you know, I've done a fair amount of writing recently, so I'm excited about it. Yeah. That is exciting. Back in the, back in the writing mode for the first time in a long time. You got the muscle warmed up. Do you find that like, as you've started getting back into it, that you're finally finding a flow or that you find a flow or is it always,

is it always hard? Like, How is that process for you? Well, what's interesting about that is I actually have really had a hard time getting back into it for whatever reason. I hate the word writer's block, but for reasons unbeknownst to me, it has been quite a challenge to just put my butt in the chair and do the thing in a way that I haven't experienced before in my life. And I was starting to get concerned, like maybe I just am not into doing this anymore or maybe I've lost my touch or maybe I'm getting old. And I had a discussion on the podcast with a neuroscientist recently, this guy Andrew Huberman, who's all about like how the brain works. And I laid this out for him and I was like, what is wrong with me? Because then once the deadline became real and I was able to like appreciate the gravity of the situation I'd created for myself and started working on it, now it's all I can think about. Like everything else

is a distraction. I don't want to do anything but do this. And it made me think like, why am I wired in this way? Like perhaps that's part of my addictive nature. Because again, I'd like to be the person who just does it in a very balanced manner. But it's an immersive experience, you know. Somebody who writes books all the time and is writing a book right now. When you're in, you're like all in and it becomes your entire universe. But I find it's always hard, you know, like I just finished, finally finished the first draft

of this raw, this raw draft. I call it, I don't even call it the first draft, the raw draft of this manuscript of this talking about- It's a novel. It's a novel. It's like, talk about imposter syndrome. I've had that the entire time. Like, you know, like, cause I did write a novel before and that's what got me an agent, but we didn't sell it. And, but this time it's not even nothing about my life. It's not semi-autobiographical like that one was. So it's challenged me in ways.

And it was, I was also avoiding it. I always had these reasons why I shouldn't start it. You know, like I didn't have the research done. I didn't have time to do it because of this, that, the other thing. And then when quarantine came along. Jonathan Franzen. Exactly. And then there's that.

Well, I know I'm not Jonathan Franzen. Don't worry. Spoiler alert. But yeah, so finally getting that done. But like each, almost every day, finally towards the end, once you get to the point, you can see the downhill to the finish line. It becomes a little easier, but like it was hard almost every day. And what helped me was that Stephen King interview with in New York Times Magazine, David Marchese. Is it Marchese?

Marchese? I don't know. He does these great interviews. I think he's the best interviewer in print media. And he used to be in New York Magazine. Now he's at the Times Magazine. And Stephen King, he asked him, does it always... Do you

know when you have a great book on your hands when you're writing? He goes, they always feel terrible. And if that's Stephen King saying that... It's very comforting. It is very comforting. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm trying to get Stephen Pressfield on the podcast. Have you read War of Art? No. Returning Pro? I have not. It is very comforting. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm trying to get Steven Pressfield on the podcast. Have you read War of Art? No.

Returning Pro? I have not. Oh, my goodness. Those are the manuals for unlocking all of this stuff. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, you should definitely check those out. I think I need to. He's the dude when it comes to that stuff.

And he lives in Malibu. I've been going back and forth with him. Oh, really? Oh, you'll get him. I'll get him on the show soon. Yeah, yeah, that's perfect. in Malibu. I've been going back and forth with them. Oh, really? Oh, you'll get him on the show. Yeah, yeah. That's perfect. The other announcement that I wanted to make is that we're right now contemplating some version of a subscription service for the things that

we do here. And I put a survey up on the Facebook group page for the podcast. So for those of you who don't know, there's a Facebook group, Rich Roll Podcast. You can find it on Facebook. I'll put a link in the show notes to that with a few questions because it's something that we're putting a lot of thought into and if and how we do it is going to be very much dependent upon all of your feedback and input. I don't want to do anything that isn't going to satisfy the kind of things that the audience is looking for from me. So excited about the work that we're doing there.

The idea would be that we would be able to offer some premium things beyond just – the podcast will always be free. I'm always going to do the podcast the way that we're doing it, but what else can I do to be of service and contribute to this community? And how can I be a more present communicative member of the community as well, which is where my head's at. So if you're kind of like a remote retreat, like doing what you do in the retreat mode, but offering it to people. How about a monthly Zoom call with everybody who's a subscriber? What about a bonus podcast episode every month? Things like that. And just taking everybody's temperature and pulse on what they would be interested in. So excited about the work that we're doing there. And again,

that's another thing where I'll keep you guys posted and more will be revealed. That Facebook group is cool. It's fun to see everybody interacting and connecting on their own terms, but with content inspired by your content. Yeah. I mean, the idea there is I wanted to make a place for the community to do its own thing outside of myself, like for it to, for those people to interact with each other and to be able to see that happening is really cool. What's funny is after I had Doug Evans on the podcast, then it just became like a whole portal for people sharing about sprouting and everybody was, you know, exchanging their tips and where they get their equipment and what

their sprouts look like. So I thought I would bring in some of my own sprouts. The funny thing about that is Doug got me doing it. I got these canisters, which you can see here. If you're watching this on YouTube, they're just basic glass. I think I got everything from Sproutman, sproutman.com. They have a little graded top on them. And I have now more sprouts than I can possibly do anything with. I literally had to stop sprouting because they started to overwhelm my fridge. It's too much. Eating sprouts all day long. Did Julia evict you from the kitchen? No, she's excited about it actually, because I've taken an interest in some version of home economics for a change.

So she's very supportive, but I got a whole rack up in our kitchen and I've got a process. It's very satisfying. Because it's also, first of all, it's super easy. You basically rinse these things overnight and then you, or you soak them overnight and then you rinse them like two or three times a day for a couple of days and they just do

their thing. And these are lentils? So these are, yeah, those are lentils here. This one's like a mix. I got these like containers that just have pop lids on them and I put them in the fridge. And weight loss tip for anybody out there who's looking to drop a few pounds. Doug told me that he basically just eats sprouts all day. I was like, how is that possible?

Like, aren't you starving? Like, aren't you, like, so I thought, well, I'll try that. So for the past couple of weeks, like throughout the day, I'll just munch on sprouts as a snack. And they're actually incredibly filling. You can only eat so many before you max out. And my gut definitely had to adjust. It took a little bit of time.

That sounds exciting. Now I'm pretty adjusted and it's become habitual. Like I'll just eat sprouts throughout the day. And it really does modulate my appetite and I'll eat a normal dinner. But there's been days where I'll just eat sprouts during the day and then I'll eat dinner and I've been fine. So you are like going in the full transition to bunny.

I feel like it, yeah. All you do is eat sprouts. High five or die. And then run, run through the hills. Anyway, so yeah, I'm enjoying it though. So you gotta get on it, it's cool. You know, April really wants to, when you're pregnant, you can't eat sprouts.

Oh, you can't? I didn't know that. I'm not exactly sure why, but I'm sure it's in one of the baby books I've avoided reading so far, but- All different kinds of sprouts? Yeah, they say stay away from sprouts, but that might be sprouts you buy in the store because E. coli is somehow more prevalent in sprouts. So I think if you make it yourself, maybe that's not as much of an issue. I think the fear, I don't know, but I suspect the fear is that they can go bad. And so if you eat a bad patch,

that could be problematic or dangerous. I don't know that there would be anything in sprouts that haven't like turned that would be unhealthy for a pregnant person, but I'm not a doctor, don't listen to me. No, don't worry. We're sticking to the baby books. We've got a, we're installing blinds in the new place

and you can't have the cords. It's gotta be cordless, which has elevated everything price-wise about 2X. And yesterday we were talking about it. I'm like, well, maybe we could just go with cords. And she's like, I'm like, where does it say that we shouldn't have cords? She goes, literally every baby book.

Oh, really? And I'm like, oh. So only one month to go. One month until. Well, two, so September 10th. Yeah. Yeah. Coming up quick.

I think it's gonna be September 11th because I'm December 7th. Yeah. So I think we're gonna be the tragic holiday boys. We'll see. Yeah. More will be revealed. Stay tuned.

All right, well, what do you want to talk about I thought we could talk a little bit about well let me set the stage so as many of you know the last couple months of the podcast have been pretty heavy I've done my best to tackle

some very serious subjects everything from racial injustice to systemic racism, food injustice, really the most pertinent, important topics of our time that we're grappling with. We have a bit of a respite this week. I put up Kevin Smith and his daughter, Harley Quinn Smith. It's super delightful, fun conversation. But I've been spending a lot of time kind of reflecting on, you know, how to best communicate and advocate in this space with the understanding that it's so fraught. And because we put these podcasts up on YouTube, you see the comments and you get a sense of

what's landing for people and what isn't. Not that YouTube comments are a reliable source of constructive feedback, but I do know that for a lot of people, it's been challenging in terms of how to communicate publicly in the most effective way around these issues. And there's a lot of fear from certain people who don't want to get it wrong, don't want to misstep, don't want to offend. And the result of that has been to retreat from the conversation altogether. Which doesn't help. No. Right. And you've decided, obviously, against that from the beginning you

were very clear that you wanted to address the situation from the beginning um what do you think is the inspiration to retreat from it what are people besides just fear is it is that is it the idea of being canceled or like somehow being called out yeah Yeah. I mean, there's a lot of calling out right now. There is a robust cancel culture afoot. And I think people are terrified of getting a taste of what that experience might be. And look, it's complicated because on the one hand, the public forum is holding people accountable for things that need to be addressed and spoken about. And in many ways, that culture has led to some of the changes that we're seeing right now. At the same time, I think it's important to provide people a little bit of breathing room around this who might get it wrong initially, you know, Bill Maher talked about this in his closing monologue a couple of weeks ago, that, you know, we have to encourage people to participate in this

rather than discourage them from raising their hand and saying, you know, I want to be part of this as well, but I'm afraid. I mean, I think I agree with you. I mean, there is a danger of you don't want to become the new McCarthyists, right? Like where all of a sudden you can't, if you say the wrong thing, you're branded a certain way and you're out. You know, because that plays into people who want to keep things the same as they've always been. It plays right into their hands. Right. Because now you've elevated them as the people who are more in touch with free speech, which is definitely an element of this country.

Of all the things America has been good at, free speech is one of them. I mean, it really is. So it's probably at the top of that list. So it's core to the culture here. That's why people like coming here. Look what's happening in Hong Kong right now where overnight that just gets, the light switch is turned off.

So when you cancel people to the degree, based on, there's some things that happen that are legit. But when you just cancel people because they said something the wrong way or all of a sudden, you know, things and their whole career is now in jeopardy. Especially if it's really a misinterpretation or a matter of perception. That is dangerous because you are playing, you are pushing people away that could be a contributor to making things better. Yeah. And I think it's more nuanced than just cancel culture. It's just being reprimanded publicly. You know, the way Bill Maher put it, he's like, you want to be a good ally, but not too good, or you're a white savior. You want to use your voice,

but you shouldn't make it about yourself. The rules are complicated and it's almost like you have to thread a needle or walk this tightrope. And I think a lot of people are just like, I don't, no matter what I do, it's not gonna be right. And so I'm just gonna opt out. Yeah, and I agree. I mean, like there is the argument to be made that we

wouldn't be where we are in terms of confronting racism finally, and more definitively if it wasn't for the orthodoxy of the left. Right. So now the fact that there are hard lines of, of how to behave, which are kind of a Nethma to people of my generation, Gen X, which was like, we wanted to rebel against those rules all the time. Like when you were supposed to behave a certain way, we wanted to behave a different way. But now this generation is all about behaving the right way and signaling the right things and communicating the right way. And so that has gotten us to this point where we're actually making some progress, or it seems to, we, it seems to me that we're making some progress because, because people are, are,

are holding politicians' feet to the fire and, and other public people, you know, people who have a public platform, their feet are being held to the fire or they're, they're, uh, stepping in line because they want to, whatever it is is there is a line and people are lined up to do it uh and so it could be this orthodoxy which can be construed as as somewhat dangerous if if it continues going forward like six moves down the road uh for now has put us in an unprecedented position in terms of tackling racism in America and confronting it head on. So it's, there's that, but then there's also the thing is, well, if you continue to narrow it, then are we going to make the real progress we want to make or should we

widen it and allow everybody to be a part of it? Right. Well, the strictures have become so constrained, you know, and as a fellow Gen Xer, you know, it is true. It was all about individualism, a rebellion against control systems. But the locus of that control was always governments and organizations, whereas now the control mechanism is diffused across the population. And to the extent that there is value in wokeness because it's waking up this awareness inside of ourselves about grander problems that exist outside of our individualistic dispositions, at the same time, the extremist aspect of wokeness I think is very toxic. And the downstream implications of that type of policing of speech and behavior is not in service to the best interests of liberalism. Right.

Right. Because liberalism is this ideal that we want to aspire to where it can be people of different thoughts and beliefs come together to create a society that is mostly free and open, right? Right. And when we're being regimented in such a way, that openness is called into question. Yeah. You know, and, and I think- By the people who are, who want to keep the status quo. Well, also the extreme aspects of wokeness also just further entrench and solidify the, the conservative point of view, because people look at that and just think these people are out of their minds. It's absolutely true. Also, now like the new punk rock thing to do is to be conservative.

So there's that aspect too. Like if you won't really wanna piss people off, you know what I mean? You become, you know, that's true. Like young people who wanna piss people off and be the radical. Now, like when we were growing up, no way, we wouldn't be Republicans doing that.

Now it is Republicans doing that. Beyond that, the true heterodoxy is happening online. That's not a part of the mainstream media or news culture that we're seeing on cable news, right? The ideas that are trying to address these from a perspective of greater nuance and understanding are happening in long form conversations across podcasting and YouTube.

Yeah, agreed. But it's almost like both are happening. You know, that gets us into this other kind of place. I mean, before we go in there, but before we get into kind of the wellness and rabbit hole and all of that, kind of to get us there, when I think about, when I think of the cancel culture and public shaming and the orthodoxy of speech and political thought

on the left and the right, I think of kind of the Balinese philosophy of trihita karana, which is all about cultivating harmony with yourself and with God or the universe, however you want to describe it. Harmony among people within the community and the family and harmony with nature and the environment. That's what it was all built around because it was this culture that came up on this small island, its own kind of Hindu culture that developed with animist beliefs and Hinduism. And this culture developed because all we have is this island. So we need to make sure it all works, you know, like the way we channel the water to the rice fields, everything, the way we interact with one

another. Um, we are now in this place where we want to eradicate and destroy. And I understand why, you know, like it's because people have felt that they people have felt that their lives are in jeopardy, that they're being eradicated or not heard and attempted to destroy. But shouldn't the aspiration be harmony? And within Balinese worldview is this idea that you can't destroy the dark thing, the evil thing. It can never be destroyed.

The best you can do is cultivate enough light that you have a balance. And that's what you can do. And that's not just within society. That's within yourself because we all have kind of these dark thoughts, right? I mean, that's just part of the human condition. And so they do it through meditation and through rituals that are performed on a daily basis and then within a village and and within island wide um but we it's something that i think about i was thinking about that this week it that would be a good place to get to if we can consider how do we

cultivate harmony with ourselves within the community and and with nature because that should that should be the driving force. And if you do that, there will be no place for people like the current president or alt-right figures. There will be no place for them. They'll exist because you can't eliminate that, but they won't have the oxygen. But when you do this other thing where you try to eradicate them, they become like demagogues. They become bigger, not smaller. Well, I think the problem with – I mean it's a beautiful ideal. I think what makes translating that notion or laying that template upon America as we see it right now is the fact that we have systems that need to be reformed before that's functional because that idea,

as beautiful as it is, gets conflated with all lives matter or, you know, I don't see color. You know what I mean? Like, it's like, oh, harmony. And I think in order to get to that place, first, we need to drill down on the systemic aspect of these problems and what's driving the kind of unconscious forces that are creating problems that lead to the disenfranchisement of people of color. And until we do that, we can't deal with the harmony part. No. So that's the two sides. So do you want the orthodoxy? Because that'll get... Which is the place that gets us there, though? The orthodoxy

has got us to this place where we're confronting it head on. Is that going to be enough to actually get to the systemic root of it? Or do you need to build consensus? And if you need to build consensus, then you can't do that with just the orthodoxy. Right. Right. So you need to have... Yeah. Now, I understand what you're saying now. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, consensus is the way forward, right? But right now we're creating demagogues. Yeah, yeah. And polarizing. My fear is that this polarization is only going to escalate. And that really is driving a rift that makes this problem all the more difficult to solve.

Right. And if you come across, I mean, I'm with the conversation of systemic change and we need to get there. But if what drives us towards getting there is this idea of we have to live in harmony because we do all live here. And we need a unity of purpose. We need a unity of purpose. So it's not so much trying to culturally appropriate the Balinese worldview and put it here. It's this guiding light, kind of like this idea that there is something to be learned from all these different cultures that have cultivated something that does seem to work for people and for community. I mean, not that it's an ideal place, but it's something to think about, like a philosophy to think about. And how can that be applied here?

Yeah. Shifting gears a little bit, I wanted to talk about how all of these ideas impact the wellness and alternative health community? Because one of the things that I've noticed that I think is super interesting is the way in which the wellness community itself has become, or a certain aspect of it has become radicalized or prone to more conspiracy-oriented ideas. And I've been spending a lot of time thinking about why that is. Like, there's a strange Venn diagram when you look at the wellness community and how it overlaps with certain political ideologies. I used to think that these things lived in separate universes, but now everything is political and recent events have made that truth all the more so. And in thinking about it, the conclusion that I'm arriving at is that I think at its origins, the wellness movement, if there is such a thing, grew out of the roots of alternative health ideologies. And those notions

are the result of people attempting to take better control of their own health trajectories and also a healthy distrust of the medical establishment. Like, don't just go to your doctor and get a prescription. Like, here are some other things that you could potentially do that might make you a healthier human being. And over time, I think that bred a healthy distrust of certain institutions that perhaps don't have the best interests of individuals and the patients. And I think that's good. And now that seems to have metastasized in ways that are potentially unhealthy. Yeah. It's like embedded within this kind of wellness community that is becoming more and more skeptical of things, especially with this

pandemic and the CDC and all that kind of thing that you're talking about, right? The wellness, is that what you're getting at? The fact that online there is a healthy portion of the wellness community that basically doesn't believe the coronavirus stats, doesn't believe that it's as dangerous? Yeah, I mean, I don't wanna go down some crazy rabbit hole about conspiracy X, Y, or Z because that's not the purpose of why

I brought this up. But I think in general, yes, there's a receptivity to potentially wrongheaded ideas right now among the wellness community that I think is new and different and something to be aware of. I think that it comes – it's because they've been – all of this stuff that we are seeing now, fake news, whether it be from the health side or just general fake political news or whatever it is. That only works because there was a period of time when we were lied to and blatantly misled by the FBI, by government institutions, by Dow Chemical, whatever it is. I don't know if you saw the movie Dark Waters about the whole Teflon situation with,

I think it was DuPont actually, that Mark Ruffalo movie. I haven't seen it yet, but I'm familiar with the case. Yeah, yeah. So, I mean, there is this root that is kind of toxic, was toxic to people. Yeah, and there's a healthy distrust that comes with that, whether it's a chemical company or a pharmaceutical company or an oil company.

And so this is all a result of that. You know, like in the 50s when Village Voice was founded and then all these alt weeklies in the 60s kind of, which was heavily tied in with wellness stuff. Some of them were very much connected. They popped up all across the country, these alt-weeklies, and became a movement. And that was because the mainstream media wasn't to be trusted. They were kind of spinning the party line. That's not, you know, so that hasn't changed. That distrust of these institutions never left. Now it's just changed shape and form and into a much more powerful force, which is digital media and social media.

Yeah. It is weird that everything is political now. Yeah. There used to be politics and everything else, but now there's nothing that isn't part and parcel of a political discussion. It is weird. And I don't know whether that's good or bad, but I feel like it's not bringing us together. No. I think it's serving to really create distance between ourselves and our fellow man.

It's dissonant. Yeah. No question. And I don't know what the way forward is. I'm It's dissonant. Yeah. No question. And I don't know what the way forward is. I'm a free speech proponent, but I think there's also a responsibility that comes with having a platform. And I spent a lot of time thinking about what are the kinds of conversations I want to have? Who are the kinds of people that I want sitting across from me? And it's not just anybody. I put thought into that because people are paying attention. They're listening, they're watching. And when I see others

shirk that responsibility for the sake of views or clicks, I think that that is irresponsible right now, especially in a time that's so fraught. My hope is that everybody would be mindful of the types of conversations they're having. And I don't think it's enough to just say, well, I'm just having a conversation with somebody. It doesn't mean that I agree with them. Of course, I've done hundreds of interviews. I'm not going to agree with everything that the person sitting across from me says. There's going to be healthy disagreement, but I think that's different. That's entirely different from having somebody on who's coming from a perspective that might get a lot of attention, but is potentially harmful,

especially in a moment where lives are truly at stake. Yeah. And you're in charge of your platform and you can make those decisions. And, but what happens when those are, when it's more systemic than that, when it's an AI that is teeing up video after video to people? Right. Like, well, that's definitely what's happening. Right. So if you're one of the people that is, that cares about their platform for your own personal, you know, cause you have a brand to protect and you have a, and you have your own motivations for that, which are personal, but also from a perspective of running your operation. But when other people who just want the clicks because it's easier money, more listeners, that kind of thing,

then they become part of a pile that an algorithm or an AI kind of starts queuing up like its own DJ. You know, like that's a different thing entirely. Right, which really brings us to the next thing that we wanted to talk about, which is this incredible podcast series that the New York Times put out called Rabbit Hole. And I think to preface that conversation, I would say that we all want to believe that we are not only rational, sentient actors, but that we're not that manipulatable.

Right. Right. Yeah. And when you listen to this series, you realize just how inaccurate that actually is. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And it, and it speaks specifically and directly to the statement that you just said. So Adam and I talked and we thought, wouldn't it be fun on the show to do a little bit of, you know, show and tell, I brought the sprouts, but also share a few things that we've been enjoying. And the first thing that came to my mind was this podcast series, because I thought it was superbly done and speaks to exactly what we've been talking about, which I think is a really important issue right now. The manner in which people are so easily swayed by the vicissitudes of the YouTube algorithm. I listened

to this like a couple of months ago, so it's not as fresh in my mind as it is for you because you just listened to it, right? I just listened to it. Well, Kevin Ruse is the host and the reporter behind it. He's one of New York Times' best tech reporters. And he covers Facebook and social media relentlessly and really has illuminated many things for me before I started listening to this podcast. But mostly I've been watching his posts. He does either daily or weekly posts

of the most viewed. Most shared things on Facebook, yes. And nine out of 10 of them are really conservative articles. And one is like an Occupy Democrats article. So it's very political. It just shows you how stark and political Facebook truly is. And he kind of raised that for me a while ago with his reporting. This is really interesting because it shows you how stark and political Facebook truly is. And he kind of raised that for me a while ago

with his reporting. This is really interesting because it shows you, you know, when he interviews the CEO of YouTube and other people involved, it's almost like they're surprised. Like they've unleashed this AI, which is the algorithm that operates on its own. And it queues up video after video for people. Like the podcast opens, if you haven't heard it, it opens with someone who has been kind of down the rabbit hole. I forget his name, but he starts watching Joe Rogan, which leads to Sebastian Melano, I think is his name.

No, Stefan Molnio, I think is his name. So yeah, it basically tracks this one young man's trajectory from an average dude and how he becomes over time radicalized by virtue of YouTube. And then ultimately how he finds his way out of that rabbit hole. Also by virtue of YouTube. Yeah, and they track,

they go through his entire watch history. And they look at all the videos that were suggested to him. And you can see this path that this guy takes from one video to the next, to the next, to the next, how it walks him through this process of ideation where he slowly becomes immersed in ideas that are not his own, that he didn't necessarily choose. And by virtue of that suggested column on the right-hand side of YouTube, he ends up watching and how incredibly influential all of that became for that young man. Because they spend hours, and he spent hours watching this stuff. And that's the other thing is you keep hearing, and at the end of it, there's a story about Pizzagate

and an older YouTube addict, I guess you could call it, or devotee who literally spent, was going through a hard time in her life. And basically YouTube was the one comfort she had, and she would just watch hours of it in a row. And she started with Elizabeth Warren speeches. Right, that's right. And ended up in the QAnon territory.

Yes. You know, so it shows you. So a couple things take away from me is, like, I'm thinking, I'd like to see a study on AI and the YouTube algorithm and what kind of hormones are going through the body. Like I want some media scientist to like put someone in the UCLA like Neiman lab, put electrodes on their bodies

and literally find out what hormones are being secreted in the person by this AI. Well, there are some interesting studies that are being done right now. There's a guy called Tristan Harris, who I believe is a former Google executive, if memory serves me, who started now a foundation that's looking at that very thing. I don't know what kind of research specifically they're doing, but there are very smart people who are paying attention to this. Because it really is like getting played. Like,

who's the real tool now? Like, who's getting played? Right. And the irony in that, of course, is that the messaging is all about how you need to sort of take the red pill and emerge from being played. Yes. But in turn, you're actually yourself playing into something else entirely. entirely. It's this interesting kind of dichotomy looking on the left, where it used to be like Twitter was this place where liberal rage went to live and thrive and progressives kind of had their say, but really everyone wondered, well, what are you really doing? You're just tweeting. And YouTube, it's like these would-be quote researchers, they really think of themselves as researchers. Like in Florida, that meeting over the mask, did you see that?

Where like a bunch of angry people came up and were chastising the city council saying, I won't wear your mask. This mask is going to kill me. Like all sorts of crazy shit. And they described themselves. I've done my research. The research is watching YouTube videos. I mean, I'm not fucking around here.

Like that's what they think research is, like watching YouTube videos. Like you hear that, it's like, I mean, that's scary. Yeah. Yeah. You didn't know that? No, I didn't know that. People think of themselves as researchers. No, you're a watcher.

I did see the woman who went into Target and pulled all the masks off that they were selling and threw them all on the floor and got angry. She wasn't mad that she was being forced to wear a mask. She was mad that Target was selling masks. And this is the repressed rage that so many people are feeling right now that has nothing to do with masks. No. And it has everything to do with something else deeper. What do you think it has to do with masks and has everything to do with something else deeper. What do you think it has to do with? Because I was talking about this with April, like to have a society that's reacting this

way to the pandemic and needs YouTube in this manner and is craving this kind of information, it points to kind of a rot at the core, doesn't it? I think it's disenfranchisement and powerlessness. I think it's disenfranchisement and powerlessness. Like if you – what would motivate you to go into a Target and like knock down a display case of products on it unless something was fundamentally broken inside of you? And I think people feel like they don't have a voice and their lives are neutered in such a way that they're underexpressed, I guess is a way to put it, right? They may have perfectly fine jobs and are able to pay their bills and whatnot, but there's a deep-seated sense of dissatisfaction or a lack of agency, I think. Alienation.

That is at a low boil. And so you can continue to live your life and it seems manageable and not at some kind of acute crisis level, but it's just beneath the surface. And all it takes is something like this that gives them permission to express it. So it's like a man versus machine feeling. You feel like you're being ground up by the machine, by the way life is, all the structures are kind of being put upon you. And then ironically, your salvation is diving into this AI machine. And what a trip that is. is diving into this AI machine. Right.

And what a trip that is. I mean, but I agree with you. Like there is something where people are deeply unsatisfied. I feel like it's an alienation. Do you feel like it's more exacerbated with quarantine that it's actually becoming easier to see? Of course. Yeah. Yeah.

It's the witch's brew of quarantine and all of the political unrest. All of these things are combining to create a very unique situation in which this repressed rage is finding its expression in these unhealthy ways. It's a trip. Yeah. Like the idea with coronavirus and how some people's answer, don't wear masks, we should go for herd immunity. And it'll be interesting to see when there is a vaccine, how many of these people who claim they want herd immunity will line up for a shot of

herd immunity. We'll see. The other thing about rabbit Hole that's fascinating is it's not just about this young man and his journey through the YouTube algorithm. It then looks at the origins of QAnon and you hear testimony from these QAnon people and how much they loved. It started out as like this community for what sounded like people who were lonely and they really enjoyed chatting with each other.

It's exactly what you're talking about. And that, there's something healthy about that. But of course, it's all premised upon this QAnon. And who is QAnon? Do we know? Do we know who Q is? I don't know, I don't know. But how that then metastasized into something unhealthy.

Right. The origins of that were people getting together who were able to chat with each other online, you know, on Reddit, I guess. Well, yeah, but they were chatting with each other about how fucked up the system was. Well, that goes back to the disenfranchisement, right? The lack of agency,

the feeling that you don't have power over your life. And when you can point your finger at something else outside of yourself and say, that's why, and you can rally a lot of emotional support around that, that becomes a very potent and powerful force. It's interesting because the two people that they profiled both first the YouTube algorithm with, the younger guy in West Virginia who was living with his grandparents and who became a YouTuber himself. Right.

And then the woman who was in the hospitality industry and she lost everything in the financial crisis and then had her home destroyed in Hurricane Irma and she got into the QAnon rabbit hole. They both represent kind of parallel to the opioid epidemic. It's hitting like, it is hitting disproportionately white communities where there is this kind of storm of disempowerment coming through. Like a guy coming out of college, or like dropped out of college, couldn't figure out what he was wanting to do. Didn't really have a lot of opportunity living in his grandma's house.

This woman who had hit a couple of brick walls financially and is now living at some friend's house with nothing to do and no job. Those are the people that are heading there. So there is, I wonder what you think, if there is from an addiction standpoint, do you see parallels drive, this connection you're talking about

that they're going for, it's around a very specific thing that they're kind of tapping into? Well, certainly, I'm not a psychologist, but I think what is going on is there is, once you stumble upon an idea that connects with you, like you see this person and they feel like they're speaking to you directly and they're telling you about your problems and they're offering a solution, right? That's very intoxicating. And then you can click on another video and this person is going to tell you even more. Something is going on biochemically in your brain. And as you begin to calcify around these ideas, then it becomes a quest for confirmation bias. You're going to click on

more and more videos that are going to affirm and entrench that perspective. And that's not a left or right thing. This is happening on both polarities of the political spectrum. Yeah. And there's like something happening in these videos that is very extreme. There's like the more extreme you get, the more outlandish it gets,

the bigger it gets. Like look at PewDiePie, right? Like he, this hundred and three, that's in the middle of- They go through the whole thing with him. Yeah. And his growth and how he's got a hundred million something subscribers. I mean, who's really the alternative of- They go through the whole thing with him. Yeah. And his growth and how he's got 100 million

something subscribers. I mean, who's really the alternative media now? Yeah. Yeah, it's interesting. That still gets pegged as alternative media. And yet that person flicks on a video camera and is reaching way more people than any television show. The New York Times has 4 million subscribers.

We've got 130 million. Joe Rogan's got 100 million, doesn't he? Well, that's what's so interesting. Like you look at Rogan, and I've said this many times before, but for a lot of people, especially young men, he's the most important media figure in their life. No doubt about it. 100%. Yeah. Incredibly influential and powerful. incredibly influential and powerful. And despite a couple articles about him and his show and his sort of universe of people that he likes to have on in the New York Times, the Atlantic, there's been a couple of pieces about it. It doesn't come up in mainstream media. It's as if it doesn't exist. And yet his, what he's doing is reaching

way more people than those Sunday morning political, you know, batshit political shows where everyone's yelling at each other. But you know, it's, it's as, as ignorant as I was of PewDiePie's fame. Like I heard of him, but I didn't realize how big he was and of of of you know how how many like how mainstream actually this youtube stuff is like it is very mainstream um i did know about rogan and how dominant he was because obviously with the david goggins book my experience and knowing how what a dominant force he was but when uh bernie sanders went on there he was killed on twitter on the left for like going on Joe Rogan show, which I thought was. I thought that was insane. That was insane because if you know anything, you know that's the perfect place for him to go.

If you want to actually recruit people who are potentially Trump supporters to switch sides, you get Joe Rogan to endorse your candidate. Yes. That was the greatest thing that ever happened. And the fact that the left railed against that, I think shines a light on it, really elucidates the systemic problems with the left at the moment. Also the lack of understanding of who's actually in charge, who's powerful in media right now. Like there's a lack of understanding. Like, my lack of understanding was not realizing, you know, PewDiePie and all this crazy, you know, QAnon and all.

I really, until I listened to this, I didn't really fully understand the depth of it. I just happen to know about, I know about Rogan. But, like, there's a whole bunch of people that don't realize it. I remember having debates with it on Twitter. People are trashing Bernie for going on Rogan. I'm like, no, like that's the best place to go. Right. Like that makes perfect sense.

I can tell you, I've been a guest on Joe's show twice. Both of those experiences were fantastic. I get along with Joe perfectly fine. I have a huge amount of respect for what he does. And when you go on his show and look, the last time I did it, it was quite a long time ago. It's grown significantly since then, but it's insane. Like the spike in people that are suddenly paying attention to you is bananas. Unlike any other media I've ever done a hundredfold. And I would suspect that David Goggins would tell you the same. He's one of the most popular guests that Joe's ever had on. No doubt. No doubt. Like

his, his numbers spiked significantly after that Joe Rogan opinion. Nothing has even touched it. Yeah. Nothing even comes close. No. It's incredibly powerful. And people now I think are more increasingly aware that at least it exists, but I still think they're woefully underappreciating the heft and the power that that program holds at the moment. Agreed. And the good thing about his program, which doesn't get, I don't think, a lot of mainstream ink either, is that he's actually very smart. So he's the kind of person you actually want to have in that position. And he's very cagey in that he will say, look, I'm just a dummy.

Don't listen to me. But he's very good at what he does. And I can tell you that as somebody who sat across from him for six hours talking to him. There you go. So. Did you want to get into where the QAnon went or do you want to get into cosmic ping pong or not really? No, I think we'll save that for another time. We have one more. Could monopolize hours of conversation.

And I don't want to do that lightly. No, yeah, but you could take a highlight and then all of a sudden that could be in the QAnon queue on YouTube and think of all the viewers you'll get. I'm not doing this for clickbait, man. I think one – I will say this and then let's move on. And that is that these are not academic problems. These are actual issues that have real-world ramifications.

And there is no more example that illustrates that better than what happened at Cosmic Pizza. When that gunman showed up convinced that there was a child sex ring going on in the basement of this pizza parlor in Washington, DC. And he, in his own mind, was well-intentioned. He thought children were being harmed because of the way that he had been radicalized online. And what you just said there shows how we should approach this, like it's empathetic. And that's how Kevin Ruse approaches it in this series. And it also is that YouTube video I referenced, and I'll send you the link because you should see this, this woman who everyone online was calling crazy, and look at her, and ha-ha, what a joke she is for railing at this city council. Kevin put that up and said, this is very mainstream.

It's not fringe. Literally 100 million people could feel – I don't forget what his words were, but what she is saying's not fringe. Literally a hundred million people could feel like he, I don't forget what his words were, but like what she is saying is not fringe. And that's the problem, right? What she is saying is actually mainstream, just like we're talking about. What is mainstream? And the solution, which is what Kevin did such a good job of portraying the solution is that we have to understand what's going on with these people that would lead to this kind of wrongheaded thinking, right? Like this is a person who is vulnerable for these reasons. And until we address the situation that creates that vulnerability, this is only going to get worse.

Well, I think that's a good way to kind of segue into how to feed the soul in these trying times. Yes. And if it's not going to be yoga and meditation rich, I think it should be Queer Eye. It should be. That's where our good... I mean, we have a couple of choices here. We have Queer Eye and we have Kanye. Let's go to Queer Eye first. These are our chances for redemption here.

So we were joking recently. I think I was with you and I just brought it up. You've been watching it with the family, right? Yeah. So throughout quarantine, we have all our kids home. We've been having family dinners. There's a lot that's been really nice about it. And one of the things that we've done, not every night,

but like a couple nights a week, like after dinner, we're like, all right, what do you wanna watch? And for some reason, we started watching Queer Eye. My relationship with Queer Eye dates back to Queer Eye for the Straight Guy, like the original cast all the way back then. And I'm late to the party here because I've never seen this television show.

I think maybe I had a vague notion that they had rebooted it and it existed, but I'd never watched an episode. He'd never watched it. Season five got released. So it's been around for five years. I've never seen it. So this is like my big,

like here's what everyone should watch. Everyone's like, yeah, I know. I've been watching that all along. like my big, like, here's what everyone should watch. Everyone's like, yeah, I know. I've been watching that all along. Yeah. But I was really moved by this program. Like from the first episode that I watched, I'm like, okay, they're going to, it's a makeover show. These, these do like, who are these guys? Like, they're going to come in, they're going to make these people over. Without fail, every episode of this show that I've watched has been like an emotional roller coaster. It's so inspiring.

Yes. I'm really touched by what these five guys, the way in which these five guys are able to connect with so many different varieties of humanity. And more than that, the way in which they're doing it. I think it's really beautiful. And so over the course of the quarantine, we've watched the entire five seasons. I've missed a few nights. You mentioned one episode to me

and it's one of your favorites. I don't think I've seen it yet. The barbecue ladies. I love this show. It's incredible. I've been on it since it started. So Queer Eye for the straight guy, for those who have not seen the original,

it was really all about getting straight guys to look better and groom better and live better. And that's what it was about. And they were mostly young. It was an MTV show, I think. I think so, yeah. At least originally. It was for young people.

Not only do they choose a diverse cast of people who are multi-talented and extremely good on television, and it's an hour long, but it's kind of adds a home improvement element that was like, it flexes out the home improvement, hat tip to Bobby. It also-

Bobby's a genius. Bobby's a genius. What he's able to do in five days in these people's homes is unbelievable. And then we have, this is my hat tip to tan France. I'm wearing my tan France approved shirt. It looks good. I think he would approve.

And he would approve of your pop of color too, I think. Hey, listen, I started wearing a jacket on this podcast when I started watching Queer Eye. So there you go. But they also chose like, it's not just men, you know, it's women, it's queer people. It's people who are like like even on the gender spectrum. It's real hard cases, like kind of people that you wouldn't expect this group of gay men to go into and help.

Yeah, there's a whole season in the South, in Georgia, where they're interacting with all kinds of people who, for the most part, a lot of them, I think, really had no meaningful relationships with any gay people in their lives ever before. Yeah. And the compassion and the patience and the fun that they bring into these people's lives is, I mean, I just, I think it's- And the love. Yeah. The self-love. Right. And just- Well, that's the other huge difference

between that original version and this one is the self-help empowerment angle that Karamo brings. And they say he's like, Karamo, culture. He's not culture. This guy is like literally helping these people see their lives with more clarity, identifying the obstacles that they're facing or what's hamstringing them and trying to help them find a better path forward. I mean, culture came from the original.

I think like one person's job was to teach them how to eat properly and like to go dancing and these kinds of things. And so that's what they tag Karamo with. But Karamo is a guy who was, I think, a licensed clinical social worker, like a therapist. I think he's a psychotherapist. I think a licensed clinical social worker, like a therapist in a previous life. I think he's a psychotherapist. Yeah, and he is, I mean, he will just cut right to the core every time. Right. Yeah, he's your guy, right?

He's your favorite. I got to get that guy on the podcast. I know he has his own podcast on Luminary. He did, I think Russell Brand had Karamo on his show. I'm going to check that out. I got to listen to that. Yeah, I got it. I mean, that's got to happen. Karamo's got toamo on his show. I'm gonna check that out. I gotta listen to that. Yeah, I got it. I mean, that's gotta happen.

Karamo's gotta get on the show. And what about JVN? Well, JVN, I mean, has there ever, I mean, what do you even say? I mean, the guy is like, I don't know what they're paying that guy, but they should like triple it. I mean, he's the most fabulous, entertaining,

unique human being you're ever gonna see on television. Yeah, he's the most fabulous, entertaining, unique human being you're ever gonna see on television. Yeah, he's beautiful. He played Carnegie Hall, by the way. Did he? Yeah, you didn't know that? See, I don't know anything about this. He did like a whole like comedy variety show with gymnastics and he played Carnegie Hall.

I saw him do the splits. Did you see him? Well, I knew that he was like a cheerleader in his high school. Did you watch the episode where he went back to his high school and queer-eyed like the woman who was in charge of all those programs? I started watching it and then I had to work and I missed it. So that's another one that I have to go back and watch the whole part of.

That's like JVN. Yeah, that's the one you're going to see. I mean, that guy is unbelievable. And how he connects with people, like with his childlike nature, you know, it's so warm and inviting. Yeah. Those guys are doing more for gay rights than, I mean, the advocacy that's kind of behind, like it's not explicit. It's sort of just there in the way that they carry themselves, I think is really powerful.

They're just, yeah, beautiful human beings, smart on top of it together and empathetic. Like they're looking for the places of connection. No matter who it is. Yeah, they're not spending any time on the differences or the division. They're going right towards what they can connect with. Like what are the similarities? What is the way in with this person?

How can I relate to them? Yeah. It's cool. So I'm five years late to this party. But you're in the party. But if anybody's listening to this or watching this, they're like, me? I have been enjoying this show.

That's what show and tell is for. Here's the final part of the show and tell, which is like the cherry on top of this Sunday, And I will- That's what show and tell is for. Here's the final part of the show and tell, which is like the cherry on top of this Sunday, is I'm scrolling through Twitter the other day and Brene Brown posted this thing that I thought was so great. I love Brene Brown. She's another person I really wanna get on the show.

I just think she's magnificent. Apparently she was hiking in the Texas Hill show. I just think she's magnificent. Apparently she was hiking in the Texas Hill Country. I think she lives in Houston, right? So the Hill Country is more around Austin. It is around Austin. But it sounded like she was out in the middle of nowhere. But it's all still Eastern Texas, right? Austin, Houston, they're close.

She's out hiking by herself in the middle of nowhere. And she stumbles upon somebody sitting under a cedar tree. And it turns out it's JVN. She's like, and they both say, apparently, according to her tweet, they both say, oh my God, is it you? Because I guess they were supposed to do an event together. Yes, yes. So I don't know, just, it warms my heart to think those two discovered each other on a trail and had a hike together. That's great. It's radical love.

And JVN is a bit of a radical. I like his politics. I don't know much about his politics. Yeah, he's all about the right thing. It just puts a smile on my face that those two would be out together. And I think we need a little bit of good news amidst all the heaviness right now. We do, and that's what it's all about. That was kind of your win of the week, right?

We're doing this. That was my win of the week. That was your win of the week. The Brene Brown JVN union, that's a win. That is a win. Yeah. Do you have a win? Yeah.

Yeah, my win was the Argentinian who wanted to get back to his 90-year-old dad and couldn't fly home because he was stuck in Portugal and there were no flights back into Buenos Aires. And he had a 29-foot boat and he decided to sail home for his dad's birthday and was at sea for 89 days. He tried to resupply in Cape Verde, the islands off of West Africa. And they wouldn't take him because they're a small island nation and they were careful about the virus. And he sailed across the Atlantic all the way down to Mar del Plata, which is this incredible fishing city in Argentina. And he sailed all the way home to see his dad. He didn't make his birthday, but he got there. And a great story. Beautiful.

Yeah. I'm trying to think of what I would do for my dad. Well, that is, I mean, wow. That hit home because my dad has been having some health issues in and out of the hospital. So for me, it's like to see that and to, and he had, you know, the sailor, I'm sorry, I'm spaced on his name, but we'll put the link

to the story in the show notes, right? Yeah, for sure. So people can see and get it and listen. New York Times story, right? Yeah, New York Times story. And he, you know, just to see his own personal growth on that, he was by himself for that entire time.

He like didn't even fish. He couldn't kill anything. He still ate his like canned tuna, but like he's not gonna fish anymore. He just had this, he went through his own, you know, crucible. So how did he, if he wasn't able to resupply, how did he do it?

He had stored, I mean, obviously boats like that will have a desalinator. And then he had stored a bunch of canned tuna. He was mostly consisting of canned tuna and whatever else he brought along and no gas because he couldn't get gas at Cape Verde. So he was just like dealing with doldrums and trying to find the wind and trying to stay safe. And amazing.

Good deal. Well, I feel better. That's good. Yeah, good. Should we answer some listener emails? Well, let's take a quick break and then we'll come back and do a little listener email. Let's do it. And we're back.

What do you got for me, Adam? Okay. Before we get into listener email, I have my own. I'm a listener. I have my own question. Okay. Because I know you went to the Sunday service. Is it called Sunday service?

Sunday- Kanye's thing. Yeah, Kanye's thing. And I never really asked you about it, but now since Kanye is, I guess- Is he running for president? Is he? Yes, he's running for president. You never know.

Like, is this real? Is he running for president? Is this a stunt? Right. Does he just have a record that's about to drop? Him and Elon Musk were together the other day day and Elon's on board with this. Yes. Who knows what's going on?

Vice President Elon. I don't know. Can he be vice president? Maybe secretary of state. Like Henry Kissinger had to be like secretary of state or something because he wasn't born here. I'm telling you, we live in a simulation. This is- It's getting crazier and crazier every day.

It's becoming the watchman. Yeah. Only if Kanye wins will we be at the watchman. But, you know, it's a little background. We don't know if he's running because in order to run, you have to get signatures and get on the ballot in different states. Blah, blah, blah. Who cares about that part? He's already missed the deadline, but there's more deadlines coming.

Let's just take a beat on that until we get a sense of what's actually real. Yeah, let's do that. But tell us your story about going to the service because what is he? Is he a pop star, a spiritual leader? What is Kanye right now? I think Kanye defies definition, doesn't he? He does.

He's basically a cultural icon. Is there anybody who wields more cultural influence than Kanye West? I don't know, Beyonce maybe. I don't know, not very many people. I mean, it's unbelievable the influence that that guy has had, not just on music, but on culture, fashion, a whole variety of subject matters.

Maybe his wife. And he lives not too far from me. And I remember when he first started doing the Sunday service thing, and I thought that's sort of cool. Like, wow, like he's doing... I thought it was like in his backyard or something like that.

Right. And I was out running on a trail near my house not long after I'd heard about that for the first time. And I started to hear gospel music. And I realized, oh my goodness, this is where it's happening. It was a Sunday morning and I ran. They had all kinds of security. You couldn't get too close to it, but I could see from a distance like, oh, that is the thing. And there were all these people there. And I remember thinking, I got to figure out how to get in on this. Like, I want to be able, I want to get invited. I want to see, I want to witness this experience.

Right. Because this is really interesting and unique. And everyone's dressed in white, right? Everyone's wearing white. They're all, there's music happening. It didn't look like there were that many people in attendance, probably just his friends and his family. And I just remember thinking, not only do I want to figure out how to be invited to this to see it, this is going to happen. It was a weird – I don't know Kanye. I have no in or anything like that.

I just thought somehow that's going to happen. And it did happen. And the way that it happened is that our friend Mel Nahas, I was like out running and I posted an Instagram story and I was like, hey, you can hear the music. Like this is my trail. Like you could kind of, I just shared it. And she saw that and texted me and she's like, where is that exactly? Like, I want to know exactly where that's happening. And I, I just like dropped a pin on a map and I sent it to her. She's like, I'm going to have my birthday party on that little piece, that little mound of dirt out on that trail. I was like, good luck figuring out how to make that happen. Like, how do you even get a permit?

Like, who do you even call? And she's like, don't worry about it. Like she produces all her retreats. She knows she, she's amazing. Like she knows how to figure this stuff out. And sure enough, she knew a park ranger and sorted it out and got the permission to be able to host like an evening dinner party, like out in the middle of this field on this state-owned nature preserve, basically. So we go to this dinner and there's, I don't know, 30 or 40 people there, and it's catered. It's beautiful. The sun's setting. It's a lovely evening and we're enjoying ourselves. And we're, of course, all talking about like, this is actually where this Sunday service thing is going on. How wild is that? I wonder what he's going to do with it. And we're all just, it's the topic of conversation naturally. And in the

distance, I see a guy walking up with two little kids, like way off, you could too far away to identify, but dark complected. And I remember joking to Julie and Mel, I was like, oh, there's Kanye. He's going to come over and see how we're doing. Come on. And as he got nearer and nearer, I was like, that actually kind of looks like Kanye. And then he just walked right up to our group. And I was like, oh my God, that's Kanye West. He's like, coming to your birthday party, Mel. Like, how about that? So I was like, come on, we got to go over and talk to him. He was on the other side of the, like where the dinner was happening. So Julie and I walk over and he's talking, he starts talking to Mel and he's with his daughter and his daughter's friend.

And they had just walked up. He lives nearby and he just walked up to his, he put these boulders around the perimeter of it and his kids wanted to play. His daughter wanted to play on that. So he just came up for no reason, just by himself. And he's like, what's going on here? And we explained to him and it was wild. Like he was like, oh, that's cool. Like he wanted to know who we were. He was very genuine, grounded, present, gracious, kind. Like it was a very cool experience to just talk to him. And that was that. And then he, oh, and then we were, and we kind of, I was like, all right, we got to ask if we can come to the thing. Right. So I'm kind of like dropping in. He's like, here's the number of, you know,

my assistant or whatever, like she'll hook it up. And then sure enough, like we were able to go the following Sunday. So Julie and I and Mel went to the thing and it was wild. What happens? Does he start with a sermon or is it mostly musical? You would drive up to this sort of staging parking lot that was still maybe a half mile away from the actual site. And they have all kinds of people in all the white, and then they're like this way, and they're kind of guiding you in what direction to go. And then you just congregate in a circle around this. He had built up this mound like in the middle where the choir went up there, all the musicians, where they were performing.

And there were probably, I don't know, maybe less than 100 people in attendance to watch. And it had really nothing to do with Kanye. He didn't make himself really a part, he was participating, but it wasn't like the Kanye show. It was all about this choir and these musicians. And it was cool. He put the music together though, right? I'm sure he came up with the whole program, but it wasn't like, oh, he's gonna get on the mic and he's gonna talk. It was none of that.

He was very much in the background of the whole thing. He didn't speak? No, no, no, no. Nobody really, there was a choir director and there was very little talking. It was really just music. So it's like the old House of Blues, like Sunday brunch with gospel,

but without the overpriced food. I don't know, I never went to that. So I don't know what that's like. And it went on for maybe an hour, an hour and a half. And it was cool. That's awesome. That was it, it was really lovely. Great music.

And it was wild. Like, I was like, oh, I think that's Brad Pitt over there. No way, come on. There were definitely some interesting people there, you know, but, and that was it. Like then, I mean, I don't know. So what, another thing that was interesting about that is that then I kind of shared a couple of pictures on Instagram about how much I enjoyed that. And, you know, people were, there were a lot of people that gave me shit for that. Cause he's polarizing also. Yeah,

he's polarizing. He's polarizing, you know, he had worn the, the, the MAGA hat and the whole thing. Right. And before that he'd worn the MAGA hat and the whole thing. Before that, he'd worn the MAGA hat? I think so. I think so. And I was just there to experience this creative expression that I thought was kind of an amazing thing. That seems to be what's most important to him is like, a fearlessness in his creative expression because he's constantly iterating, right? He's never stuck in any particular lane. And the minute you try to define him, he pivots and does something completely different.

And I think there's a lot to be learned from that. And I think there's a lot to be learned from that. And it begins with the way in which he created his music and how that juxtaposed – juxtaposing that against current trends in hip-hop at the time. Like he's always been an innovator. Did you see the – it was a GQ. They did a spread on his like Montana ranch and like all these plans that he has to – these architectural plans for what he wants to do with his property. It's like, it's wild. Why doesn't every rich guy have a Montana ranch? I don't know.

You don't hear of like women with Montana ranches. Maybe it's Wyoming. I'm not sure. Like Reese Witherspoon doesn't have a Montana ranch. It's always guys with their Montana ranch. I guess. Reese Witherspoon's Montana ranch. I haven't heard of that yet.

She'll have a, she probably has a ranch somewhere. All right, so that's the big Kanye story. Make of it what you will. I like the Kanye story. I hope he's not running for president personally. I don't think that would be good for our man, Joe. I don't think so either. All right, let's get into John Brown's question.

It's interesting because it gets to kind of stuff that we were talking about just in terms of personal paralysis and satisfaction or dissatisfaction. I'm 44 with a wife and three kids, and I want so badly to take a bold step into the unknown. What advice would you give me if I cornered you at a coffee shop one morning? Hey, John. I'm sympathetic to that question, although I have very few facts to go on here in order to answer this. I think the first thing I would say is why a bold step? Like what's going on in your life

right now where you feel compelled to not just make a change, but make a bold change. And I think you need to answer that for yourself first, right? Like what's the discontent or the, I don't know, what would it call? What would you call it? Like the lack of groundedness that gives you that kind of anxiousness. Yeah, it sounds like intense dissatisfaction. Right, yeah, like, yeah, that's what I see in that. Like, why does it have to be bold? So understanding that, I think it's the first step to trying to figure out what to do next.

You have three kids, you have a wife, you're 44. I don't know what your occupation is. I don't know what your satisfaction with your occupation is. I don't know if this bold step that you want to make is professional or personal. So that makes it challenging to answer this. But I think I would presume you're meaning professional. When you have three kids and a wife, I would caution you from being too bold. I think that it's romantic, this idea of quitting your job and, you know,

sailing to Argentina with cans of tuna in your boat or something like that. I don't think he had a job. I know. But I'm just saying, like, if you're feeling stuck, like, you can romanticize these other paths for yourself without fully thinking them through. So short of a bold step, my suggestion to you would be, what can you do right now that doesn't require you to burn your life down to the ground, right? Like whether it's a side hustle or just finding something that brings you happiness that you can lend greater expression to your daily life would be the place to start. Just because you have something in your life

that's not functioning properly doesn't mean that you have to cast aside everything else and do something super drastic. There is a pragmatism to all of this because those bold steps, although sexy, have ramifications for the other people in your life. And of course you have to think all of that through. So the advice that I would give you, if you cornered me in a coffee shop, would first be a bunch of questions that I would need answered

in order to give you that advice. But I think it begins with being intentional about how you're spending your time on a daily basis and having the mindfulness to carve out sections of your day every single day that are just for you, where you can invest in that one thing, that one activity, that one practice that can bring you a little bit more joy and also perhaps be a stepping stone towards that bold step that you can take at a later time. Love it. And I think that mindfulness thing that you're referencing kind of gets us into the next question. The question was from John Pierce, tell us about some of your mentors, but you hadn't really – we don't want to go there.

So I think a better question is what about – you talk about mindfulness a lot. So my question for you kind of piggybacked off John's question would be kind of, can you describe your mindfulness practice and how did you get into it? Was there a spiritual mentor or someone that kind of guided you into mindfulness? Well, I would start by saying that my mindfulness practice is far from perfect. And I say that not only as a reminder to myself that I can improve tremendously on what I'm currently doing, but also because I think people think of mindfulness practices as some sort of standard that's hard to live up to. We quantify it and then say, it has to look like this. And if you're not doing this, then you're falling short. And when people feel like they can't do that or they fall off a program, then they abandon the practice altogether. The first thing I would do is define what does mindfulness practice mean?

It can be formal meditation. But mindfulness is broader than that in the sense that it's something that we can be doing at all times. Like how can I be more mindful in this moment so that I can impart the best piece of advice that I'm capable of giving? Well, it means that I have to be present. It means that I have to ground myself and take a breath and calm my disposition enough so that what I'm expressing is done with clarity and purpose. So we could be in a mindfulness practice right now. Mindfulness does not necessitate formal meditation per se, but mindfulness is certainly a byproduct of a formal meditation practice. So my mindfulness practice involves a combination of formality and informality.

involves a combination of formality and informality. I do have a formal meditation practice that I do every morning for 20 minutes. I shouldn't say every morning because it's not every morning. I'm catching myself in that. But the goal is every morning. The goal is every morning. And I fall short of that all the time.

So the key with that is if you miss a day, not to throw the baby out with the bathwater, but just to start again the next day or that afternoon or whenever you have it, or if you have five minutes or if you have two minutes, or if you have time for one inhale and one exhale, that can be a mindfulness practice. Then it's about a constant process of reminding myself throughout the day to be more present in whatever it is that I'm doing. Left to my own devices, I'm running all kinds of scenarios. Like everybody else, I'm busy. I'm running all kinds of scenarios. I should have said that. Why didn't I call that guy back? I got to do that thing. That person let me down. I owe that person a phone call. This guy was supposed to get back to me and he didn't.

You know the drill, right? So how can I just let go of that and be present? And often that's with paying attention to my breath and also just that general reminder like, oh, I'm doing that thing. Let's come back to now. Let's come back to now. Let's come back to now. You think after back to now. Let's come back to now. You'd think after a while, you wouldn't have to do that anymore. Maybe that's true for you, not for me. But I will say, the more rigorous I am in my daily formal meditation practice,

the easier it is to be mindful throughout the day. The half-life of that meditation practice is longer. And conversely, the half-life of my varying emotional states is shorter. So if I get angry, I can get back to baseline more quickly. If I'm frustrated, a quick reminder and I'm back to baseline. And I think that's the real flex that you get when you build that muscle. It's not that you become some Buddha-like individual, it's that you're more self-aware of when your emotions are running you rather than the other around and you developed a facility to resume a state of equanimity. You asked who the mentors are for this. I mean, I've sat with gurus and I've spent time on meditation apps. So there isn't one person that I can speak to. And I think it's important to not overcomplicate these things. If all you're doing

is sitting down for five minutes and you're paying attention to your breath and you're inhaling and exhaling, that's really all you need to know. You can go on your own journey to learn more about all of these specific techniques and find what resonates for you. But I'm reticent to like, say, this is the mentor, this is the person that you should follow. I think that's a very individual. Yeah. Of course the traditions vary. Depending, but do you, do you, is it a silent meditation for you or do you use mantra at all? No, I don't. Yeah. I'm not trained. I'm not trained in TM, so I don't have a mantra. It's a silent breath practice. And then I would say, in addition to that,

breath practice. And then I would say, in addition to that, training is an active meditation for me. So if I'm out on the trail, if I'm riding my bike, that's a mindfulness practice and what I would call an active meditation. But it's important to point out that that is not a formal meditation practice. And I think there's a lot of confusion there. A lot of people think, well, I don't sit down in lotus position and meditate. And I'm not saying anybody has to sit in lotus position. But going out for a run, even if you're not wearing headphones, is not the same as a formal meditation practice. It has value, but it's a qualitatively different experience. And that's something that I had to learn because I used to think that I didn't need a formal practice because I go and spend all this time alone, out in nature, that's good enough. But I can tell you from my own experience that the difference

in how I feel and how I behave and how I interact with other people and the vicissitudes of my emotional state are much better when I'm engaged in that formal meditation practice. The active meditation aspect of it is a sort of cousin that adds additional benefit, but not at the expense of the more formal practice. So you just pop out of the tent on the roof and just fold right into the lotus position and go? I make some coffee or I make a tea and then I do it. No yoga first?

No, no, no. I try to do the meditation first thing before anything. Also because if I don't do it right then, it becomes less and less likely that it's gonna happen. So it's gotta be the first thing. Yeah, and then I will journal a little bit. I do morning pages from the artist's way. Okay. And then I either go out and train or I use the time for creative pursuits like this book right now. So I'm actually not training very much at all because I'm on such a crazy deadline.

When do you watch your QAnon videos? Is that like after lunch? That's after lunch. Yes. Because I go, mine are first thing. Right. I wake up and dive right in. When you're maximally receptive to these ideas.

I have research to do. So I got to carve out like seven to 10 hours. You have done your research, my friend. about like seven to 10 hours. You have done your research, my friend. Lori Marbus, who is the one person you have yet to interview that is at the top of your list? And I guess we've already said Karamo and Brene Brown. So maybe somebody else. Well, yeah, those are two that I would love to get.

It's funny, I don't have like some crazy list like that. I mean, I'd love to get Eckhart Tolle on. He would be great. Who wouldn't want The Rock on? I mean, I'd love to get Eckhart Tolle on, he would be great. Who wouldn't want The Rock on? I mean, come on, right? So we can talk about people like that. But it's similar to people always ask me like, what's your five-year plan or what's the goal?

What's the big thing you're working? It's like, I don't, I've just never been wired like that. I'm really much more in the moment. Like I'm just kind of feeling what's next. So my line of vision isn't lasered on or rooted in like, I have to get this person. Like I have a spreadsheet open where I just put names on as they pop into my head or somebody like, oh, that would be cool. So I don't forget, but it's not like I'm driving towards any one particular person. I probably should have an answer to that question, but I don't. Nobody. Okay. Moving on. We'll see

who shows up. I'm trusting in the universe, Adam, to deliver me the best people. But we don't know about that algorithm. No. We're not sure about that. What about the internal algorithm in my head that's deciding who comes on? If you cultivate the algorithm within, it shall be delivered. Anna Nicole. Oh, Anna Nicole. How to find your own purpose. I've been living a very comfortable life up to now, but have really lost motivation to work or take care of responsibilities. Everything is hard because I'm dragging my feet and waiting until the last minute to complete.

How does one find their groove again or a sense of purpose when they don't even know what they want? I know it's vague, but it's how it rolls around in my head. I think this one is, the reason I put this in the list is because I know a lot of people are struggling with quarantine. I know you've talked about even your own family and issues with quarantine, just like how it's challenging for so many people. So I think that that would be a good one to kind of in context of the moment we're in now. Well, I think Anna's question is something that everybody can relate to on some level, right? We're all looking for a greater purpose in our lives and we're all evaluating how we're living on a day-to-day basis against some standard imagined or otherwise of what our life

could look like. So it's easy to say, my life's not working. I should have this. Why am I not super excited when I wake up in the morning? When I read this question, I think what's instructive is first of all, the fact that she says she's living a very comfortable life, right? So there's almost like some guilt, like my life's been comfortable, so I shouldn't complain, right? Like I shouldn't, I should just be happy with what I have. But at the same time, if you're dragging your feet, if you're procrastinating, there's something that's perhaps a little bit out of function at the moment. So the first question I would ask is, what isn't working? Like perhaps do an inventory of what's suboptimal and try to set aside that guilt. Like you feel like, oh, it's

indulgent for me because I live a comfortable life to make a list of things that aren't working because I'm lucky and I'm grateful to have the job that I have or the apartment that I live in or whatever it is. But if you can be rigorous and objective in that inventory of what's not working optimally, I think that's a starting place. And then the elusive, ever elusive question of like, how do you find purpose? How do you get it back? Or if you've lost it, how do you get it back? And I wish I could give you a pithy answer of here's how you do it. It's very difficult, right? This is an individual journey that's going to look different for everybody. But I think fundamentally for everybody, it begins with an inside job.

Like this is an internal search, right? If you don't know what your purpose is, I can't tell you what your purpose is. You have to discover that for yourself. And that journey of self-discovery requires you to look inward, also in a rigorous and objective way, to try to figure out what it is about who you are that A, makes you uniquely you, and B, that you feel inspired to uniquely express. And the only way of answering that question or unlocking it is to not only ask yourself those questions, but to begin experimenting, right? Like try these different things. What brings you joy? Try to remember that thing when you were a kid that you used to like to do, not because somebody told you to do it, but because you had a natural inclination towards it. As we grow older, we tend to let go of those things or we shift our perspective on them and decide that they are the purview of a young person.

And as a responsible adult, it's no and try to remember what some of those behaviors and activities are and build those back into your life, I think is a good means of connecting with yourself that might lead you to some discoveries around purpose. And I also think that this can be indulgent. So rather than flogging yourself, like, what is my purpose? And I need a purpose. Maybe just go help somebody else out. The more that you can get out of your own way and your own self-obsession and just make yourself available to somebody who has less than you. And it doesn't mean that you have to go volunteer at a soup kitchen, although that's perfectly fine. It could be calling up a friend that you haven't talked to in a long time or somebody that you know is having a hard time

and just letting them know that you're available to them. And I think when you build that into a habit where being of service to other people in a selfless way is a reflex rather than a burden or an obligation, that in my experience and what I've seen with other people is probably the best way to set you on a trajectory that's going to connect you with some kind of purpose in your life. I know for myself, when I'm of service to other people, my problems don't matter or they get smaller. And the truth is when you're, the more selfless you are, first of all, the happier you are.

It's very gratifying when you're helping other people. Like it gives your life meaning. So when I say, how do I find purpose? What I hear is like, my life doesn't feel like it has meaning. Well, everybody can build more meaning into their life by helping other people. Your life immediately becomes more meaningful when you're of service to others. How do you get your groove back? Be of service to others. I love that. That's great. And experimenting, you can even do on a daily basis. You can't find your purpose,

maybe your purpose with a capital P on a daily basis but like I remember I was in New York with my friend Anthony Demby a long time ago and I woke up I was staying with him and he's like what's your purpose today or what's your intention today and I never do that

I don't wake up with a specific intention and I felt kind of like simultaneously like wow what am I doing wrong? And then also, okay, I just said connection, you know, connect. And later that day, I was on this subway that got stopped in the middle of like the track for 25 minutes. And people were losing their minds because they were busy or whatever. And this guy next to me was like cursing and freaking out. And instead of like just like getting up and leaving, I started to talk to him because that was an intention.

And that's like what you're saying with experimenting. You can start that easy. If you don't know where to volunteer just yet or who to be of service to, you can wake up and give yourself a purpose every morning. What's today's purpose? Yeah. You can wake up and give yourself a purpose every morning. What's today's purpose? Yeah, and it can be, what I love about that story is if you decided that day your intention was connection

and you're stuck on that subway, that just means to engage that dude who's having a hard time on the subway and maybe make his day a little bit better. That's it, yeah. You know what I mean? Just talk with him and talk through his problem and that's what we did.

Yeah. Yeah. Meanwhile, there was this weird like six foot five skin was making, like, figure eights in the hall, like, stomping in his combat boots that you didn't want to look at. That was scary, that guy. All right, man. New York City. Question five.

Brian Tolander asks. What's up, Brian? Here's a subject that may be at the heart of the great divide we are seeing getting wider in America, cognitive dissonance. Two people looking at the same event and walking away with extremely opposite opinions. I'd love to hear your thoughts. Well, this relates directly to what we've already been talking about. Yeah. Listen to rabbit hole, and it basically goes down a rabbit hole of how we've arrived at this place.

I think there's a broader conversation about confirmation bias and cognitive dissonance and how the brain works. It is interesting that two different people could watch the same news program and walk away with completely different ideas about it. And then I think the larger problem is how entrenched we become in those ideas, such that when we're presented with a counterfactual narrative, no matter how compelling that narrative, it's irrelevant. It doesn't matter. It's not going to move the needle in terms of how that person is seeing the world, whether it's the Trump voter who can't be talked out of voting for Trump or the super liberal person who, you know, sees the world in a specific way. The idea that you're going to change these people's minds, I think is, you know, we all know how difficult that is. And what is that about?

And I think it has a lot to do with, again, to bring it back to the beginning of this conversation, disenfranchisement and disempowerment. As human beings, we're hardwired to want to be part of a community, of a tribe. to want to be part of a community, of a tribe. And we align ourselves with various teams, whether it's the Philadelphia Eagles or the Los Angeles Lakers. Like look at sports and how we tribalize that. Politics are a close cousin of that. And I think as swaths of the population become progressively more disenfranchised, there's a sense of lack of control.

And I think there's an agency that develops when somebody can latch on to a certain tribe and craft an identity around that, right? This is who I am. This is my identity. And you get strength from that, no matter who you are. Like if you're in the Democratic Party, this is who I am. This is what we stand for. This is our values. And I'm going to defend my membership status in this tribe against everything else, no matter what facts that I'm presented with. So then the question becomes, how did we become so susceptible to these silos, these tribes, and why do we cling to them so strongly? And maybe it has something to do with the fact that the connections that we have in our own communities have been fractured. And this is taking the place of that, whether it's

the church or the 4-H club or whatever it is that in the 1950s through the 70s people used to do within their respective neighborhoods, a lot of that has gone away. And we've become suburbanized and cul-de-sac-ized to such an extent that we no longer have those connections. That fabric that weds us to our local communities doesn't quite exist in the way that it used to. So as human beings, we're finding other ways of doing that. So we are doing it digitally. And maybe because we don't have those in-person tactile bonds,

that's why we're holding on so tightly to the identities that we fabricate that are based on ideologies rather than proximity. That's an interesting one. I mean, what we're talking about is looking at something, everyone's watching the same thing and coming away with different opinions, but the fact is we're not watching the same thing, right? So that's also part of it.

That's part of it, yeah. Yeah, so we're watching different angles of the same thing. Yeah. Well, there is no unified source of quote unquote truth anymore. We're all self-selecting our information silos. We're all on different diets, basically. Also, I think perception of disenfranchisement is interesting because, you know, a lot of it is a perception thing, you know, like where you perceive yourself in the greater whole. And when you – there's two ways of looking at feeling small in this big world.

To me, the healthy view is I'm a small fragment of this great web, and I'm connected to all of it. And it's all part of me, and I'm part of it. And there's a sense of responsibility that comes with that. And there's a sense of humility that comes with that. Being a small speck in this one pixel in this tapestry or this picture um you're just a couple zeros and ones yeah that's in the matrix we're just part of the the great algorithm that green stream of like characters that's flowing down the shangri-la algorithm um but then the negative view of that is why do i feel so small and these assholes are such big shots?

And what is disenfranchisement? If you have a place to live and some food on your plate and you're comfortable and you're warm or whatever, how disenfranchised should you actually feel? So it's like there's all these moving parts to the modern world now. And it's always been this way. We watched American Beauty the other night because we had to go back to the DVDs because our cable company fumbled the ball on our move. And so we were watching that.

And there's a great scene where the, where what's the guy video, you know, the younger. Wes, what's his real name? What's his name? I know what you mean. Yeah. The classic scene of the.

And his dad is like reading the morning paper and he's like, what's going on, dad? And dad goes, this country's going straight to hell. It's basically always been that. Just to remind our listeners and remind each other, this country's always been going straight to hell. Like I'm sure in the revolution, the day after the revolution of war ended, there was like someone complaining about it. And every generation is told that like, oh, it's always been this way.

Every generation says that. And then they say, yeah, but this time it really is. Yes. Well, I feel like it does appear so. Right now, maybe it is. We can't end on that note. No, but the point is, is that there's always that kind of like this disenfranchisement is a point of view. I always think of it that way.

Like we're in charge of our emotional perspective. I mean, don't you think? I mean, like, isn't that what you're trying to... We try to kind of tell people and tell our kids and tell everybody is like that no one can tell you how you feel or how you're going to react to something. You have control over that. Yes, that agency resides within all of us. And in a culture and a world where we feel like that our agency has been stripped from us, it's important to realize that there are still certain things that only you have control over. You can't control the insanity of the chaotic world. You can't control what other people are going to do. You

can't control the news cycle. All you can control is your reaction to all of that and how you comport yourself. So it always goes back to mindfulness. The more mindful that you can be, the more equanimous you can carry yourself, the better equipped you are to manage whatever problems you encounter, whether they be related to disenfranchisement or your lack of sense of control over your life. Always turn back inward. And as Guru Singh always says, less emotion, more devotion. I love that. Right?

Like, rather than getting all emotional about things that you can't control, check yourself. What are you devoted to? What are you cultivating inside of yourself that can lead to greater self-awareness, self-improvement. All you can control is yourself. The path forward is to be the best version of yourself so that you're equipped to handle all those other things that you cannot control. And the byproduct of that is you become a force of harmony in this world.

And like dissonance in music is a tool to be used to make people feel, and then it always wants to come back to harmony. Like the piece of music always wants to come back. Dissonance always merges back. So that's a better note to end on because it will if we cultivate that. Yeah. Yeah.

Agreed. Yeah. I think we did it. All right, man. Thanks for having me. Episode three of Roll On. I like being your hype man. It was good, man.

How do you feel? You feel good? I feel good. I like it when you read my resume though. That really makes me feel good. Oh, I forgot to do that. No, you don't have to. Because my wife reads me my resume every night.

I'll read it to you. Yeah. But sometimes she reads me other men's resumes that are a lot more impressive if she's pissed. Adam Skolnick, co-author of Can't Hurt Me, author of One Breath, New York Times, contributing writer, environmentalist, activist, and now audio pontificator slash hype man.

Yeah, audio pontificator. That's like the podcast version of Talking Head. Right, audio pontificator. That's like the podcast version of Talking Head. Right, audio pontificator. Awesome. You can find Adam online. You could see his digital ones and zeros streaming across the matrix at Adam Skolnick on Twitter and Instagram.

Don't forget to hit that subscribe button on YouTube, Apple, or Spotify. Thanks for listening and watching, everybody. Check the show notes. We're going to put links up to everything that we talked about today. You can find that on the specific episode page at richroll.com. And generally on the YouTube version, we put links up to stuff as well. If you want to contribute a question for us to consider answering on this show, you can do that on our Facebook group, which is the Rich Roll Podcast on Facebook.

I'll put a link up to that as well on YouTube and the show notes. Also, if you join the Facebook group, you can also – it would be great if you could contribute to that survey that we've put up there as well. We should probably think about getting a voicemail option. For people? Yeah, that way then we could like play their audio of the question instead. Well, I am getting a landline. Can I make you an assignment? Yes, I can do that. I don't think you need it. Like you get like Google Voice, these phone numbers exist like-

I'll figure that out. All right, figure that out. We'll try to move forward on that. We'll put that in. And then we'll put up a new post for the questions so we can have... Okay. Oh, right. Yeah, cool. So we can organize them better.

Awesome, man. So see you back here with another version of this in two weeks. Until then, be well, more devotion, less emotion. Right? Love it. I want to thank everybody who helped put on the show today. Jason Camiolo for audio engineering, production, show notes, and interstitial music. Blake Curtis, he's right over here.

You can't see him, for videoing today's show, doing all the short clips and creating all the social media stuff. Thanks, Blake. Jessica Miranda for graphics. Georgia Whaley for copywriting. DK, also right over here. What's up, DK? DK. copywriting,

DK, also right over here. What's up, DK? DK. Advertiser Relationships and theme music by Tyler Trapper and Hari.

Appreciate you guys. Thanks for the love. See you back here in a couple days with another great episode. I love you. Peace. Plants.

Namaste. Thank you.