The Rich Roll Podcast - Roll On: Melding Passion With Purpose (+ Arctic Swimmer Lewis Pugh!)

Episode Date: September 30, 2021

How do you meld passion with purpose? What makes you committed to your cause? And most importantly, what does your podcast do? In addition to philosophizing these questions and more, in today’s edition of ‘Roll On,’ Adam Skolnick and I trade fitness updates, engage in typical ribald banter, indulge you with a cameo from environmental activist, UN Patron of the Oceans, and arctic swimmer, Lewis Pugh. And that’s just the tip of the iceberg. Aside from being my fortnightly sidekick hype beast and favorite edgelord of words literary, Adam is a waterman, writer, and veteran journalist best known as David Goggins’ Can’t Hurt Me, co-author. He writes about adventure sports, environmental issues, and civil rights for outlets such as The New York Times, Outside, ESPN, BBC, and Men’s Health. He is the author of One Breath and is currently recycling the ‘new dad’ excuse to avoid working on his novel. Specific topics covered in this episode include: RRP Staff wins + a debrief on Rich’s experience in the Malibu Triathlon; Lewis Pugh’s unique relationship with environmentalism & swimming;  Rich’s reflection on his upcoming 9 year anniversary of podcasting; and thoughts on curiosity, purpose, and why conversation matters. In addition, we answer the following questions: What advice do you have for those new to multi-sport endurance events? How do you balance your commitment to social justice with your career?  How do you remain hopeful while living through the chaos of the climate crisis? Thank you to Hadar from San Francisco, Tyler from Florida, and Jason from Pasadena for your questions. If you want your query discussed, drop it on our Facebook Page or better yet leave a voicemail at [phone]. To read more and listen click here. You can also watch on YouTube. And as always, the podcast streams wild and free on Apple Podcasts and Spotify. Peace + Plants, Rich

. The Rich Roll Podcast. What is happening all you highly evolved primates? My name is Rich Roll. I appreciate that the illusion of free will has directed you to our wavelength in this particular time space dimension. And I hope it finds you loved in a space of gratitude,

in a mindset of gratitude as well. I wrote that as well, in a space of gratitude, in a mindset of openness and prepared to receive because I am joined once again by my favorite edgelord of words literary, of actions activist, of contributions environmentalist, my waterkeeper comrade and caretaker of lands wet and arid, Mr. Adam Skolnick. Great to be here, Rich.

Once again. You know, kudos on that paragraph. Although I messed it up a little bit. With double gratitude? It's okay. It's okay to double down. If you're gonna double down on anything, gratitude is not a bad place to do it.

Gratitude's the way to go. And I am a highly evolved primate. As we all are, hopefully, with more evolution ahead of us. Yes, and I get that reminder every morning because I have a small primate at home. Yeah. Less highly evolved, but soon to be evolved. But it may be more highly evolved.

In some ways more highly evolved. Yes, we can all learn from the young ones among us. Can we not? Yes. Happy to be back with you today. Last time we appeared together was pretty heavy. This one's gonna be a little bit lighter with some flex, a light dusting of heaviness in the middle.

A light dusting of we're all gonna die right in the middle. Right, just a little thin veneer of existential dread before we get back to the jocular. Yes, because you know what? Why not laugh? While we're all going down the tubes. Is that what you're saying?

This is light. I am an optimist. I have confidence in humanity in solving our problems. I do too. Before we get into all of that, for those that are new or newer to this particular corner

of this particular podcast, Roll On is our bi-weekly. More on that later. Don't think we're not done talking about bi-weekly. We got more to. Don't think we're not done talking about bi-weekly. We got more to say about that. You're sticking with it so far. It is our bi-weekly momentary movement,

our periodic pivot away from my traditional fair of evergreen conversations to hone on matters of contemporaneous import. And today in the interest of always playing around with and tweaking the format, we're gonna do that again, but with a minor twist. After a bit of our typical ribald banter, we're gonna indulge you with a brief conversation

with legendary environmental activist and Arctic swimmer, Lewis Pugh, which is exciting. I think you guys are gonna really enjoy it. Followed by a more at times philosophical discourse on some of the more important things I've learned over the nine years of doing this thing, this podcast, what it is I'm trying to accomplish, what we can all learn from what I've learned

going through this experience. And then of course, as always, we answer a few questions submitted by you guys, the audience on our voicemail, which is get out a pen everybody, 424-235-4626. But before Louis joins us, Adam, how goes you? Well, Rich, I've been replaced. I see you across from me right now.

You haven't been replaced yet. Not by you or Brogan, but by the Malibu artist. What happened? He met Orlando Bloom. Right, you've been supplanted as his favorite muse. I can't even fault him for it. First of all, explain to people or remind people who the Malibu artist is.

The Malibu artist is my friend who's a drone pilot and he's got Malibu artists on Instagram and YouTube, great channel. He's one of these like new school nature videographers that like has a home on YouTube does very, very well. And he is for the last several years gone up and down the coast and shooting sharks in the water, not far from swimmers and surfers.

We've talked about it before. He's captured me in the water, not far from a white Shark where I normally swim. And he was in Malibu doing one of his recon flights and Orlando recognized him and came up to him and they started chatting and Orlando was getting ready to stand up paddle. And he's like, is there something out there right now?

And, cause he's a fan of Carlos and they found it, he showed it to him. And next thing you know, Orlando's out there, like kneeling over white shark on his board and they've just hit it off. So yeah, they've done a couple of different missions together. Right. Yeah. Blake, maybe you can pull up Orlando Bloom's Instagram

where he shares the video that the Malibu artist created of him stand up paddle boarding. While he's looking for that, I think that's funny. You are a stepping stone in his ascent to fame, right? Like it's kind of like when a friend of yours starts a podcast and they ask you to be like one of the first guests when there's no audience, right? And then you do it and then you realize like,

oh, I'm just a launch pad for you to get other people. Right, right. And by the time there's a big audience, right? And then you do it and then you realize like, oh, I'm just a launch pad for you to get other people. Right, right. And by the time there's a big audience, like you're the guy who was on when no one was paying attention. I was OG like a conscious shark bait. He was filming like unwitting swimmers and surfers. I was like the guy who knew what was going on

and got in there. Right. And now he's got- You had belief in him early on. And now Orlando. And now you's got- You had belief in him early on. And now Orlando. And now you have been discarded, summarily dismissed. I literally asked him,

hey, I'm going, you wanna meet up? I'm about to go for a swim. He's like, oh, I've got Orlando. I've got Orlando. Yeah, sorry. So here it is. If you're watching on video, Blake, pull it up. Is there music on there too?

Or could we just watch the video? So there's Orlando Bloom. He shared it on his Instagram. But look at him he's right there. Shark from above. And there's the shark right there. Props to Orlando. He's maybe like three, four feet away from him

right underneath him. Stud. So I will say in addition to megawatt movie star charisma that Orlando is bringing to this epic production. The proximity of the shark is more impressive than in the video that he made of you where it was like, you know, 50, 60 meters away from you. Well, it's easier to get there on a Santa paddle board.

And you know, he knew exactly, like he was going front, like he had something to follow on the board. Whereas when I was swimming, he didn't find it till I was in the water, but you know, point taken, Orlando's better on camera. Right. Yeah. While we're at it, we should probably also share, we're gonna talk about this a little bit more later,

but I participated in the Malibu Triathlon this past weekend. And there was another drone shot of the elites, the pros in the Super League Triathlon series who competed this past Saturday. There's a drone shot of the swim group from above and there's a shark pretty nearby. And that kind of spread among the triathlon community

pretty rapidly over the weekend. So Blake, pull that one up. I just saw it there a second ago. There you go. You can play that. So you can see that, you know, the big group of swimmers and there's the sharks, maybe 20 meters. Yeah, he's waiting for the end.

He wants to get the stragglers. Oh, he's coming closer. Oh no, it's just zooming up there. So there's a yellow circle around the shark. Yeah, that's good enough. Another one of my regular swim areas. Yeah, exactly. This is on Zuma Beach.

Not exactly, you know, like considered to be some kind of, you know, reef where sharks congregate. And this was the topic of much conversation amongst all the athletes and participants over the course of the weekend. Talking about this, many of them who were swimming for the first time in a triathlon or didn't have a lot of ocean experience.

And they're like, I hear there's sharks, there's sharks out. And I had to remind them the refrain that you explained to me, which was this idea, which is fundamentally kind of behind the Malibu artists premise, which is the sharks are always there. They're all around you. They actually really don't want anything to do with you.

For the most part, they're minding their own business. It's a nice reminder that it's their terrain, their home, not ours. But for the most part, you can be afraid seeing that, but you can also equally choose to see it as somewhat safer given that they're seemingly disinterested in humans for the most part. Although that one looked a little interested,

like vaguely interested that one. He was sniffing around the edges, but he didn't bother anyone. No, he didn't bother anyone. That area actually, Zuma, it runs between Trancas and all the way to Paradise Cove is a marine protected area where we swim often is around Point Doom a little bit further,

I guess it's Southeast or whatever. Yeah, yeah. And we have seen dolphins with a bite out of them. We have seen sea lions decapitated and beached themselves. We've seen, we've seen, there are, there is, I mean, even Carlos would say, he knows the sharks that do come around there are actually tend to be bigger than the ones

where I am swimming in the Palisades. So no, it is a shark area. They ping off those buoys. The whole area is a shark area. You know off those buoys. The whole area is a shark area. You know, like I've said before, if there's a good test to find out if there's sharks in the water, you stick your finger in the water and you lick it.

And if it's salty, there's sharks. Is that too much? Is that dad humoring? I think we just found the standout quote for the whole podcast. Yeah, put that on the thing, the tile. The title, if the water is salty, it's shark infested. I didn't say infested.

Anyway, also doing well, props to April. My wife, April Wong is training for a half marathon. Nice. We'll get into half marathon stuff a little bit later, but her training is rocking. She ran 10 miles yesterday. She's also on Noom, by the way, for the first time. She wants to get any semblance of the baby body

out of her life. And she's lost seven pounds in less than two weeks on Noom, which is kind of a psychological, like psychology-based platform with kind of mindful eating and good eating habits and with a psychological background. I don't know if you've ever heard of it, but I'd never heard of it.

I hadn't, no. My sister lost 20 pounds on it. And then April decided to take it. We were just up at my sister's and April decided to take a look at it. And so she's doing that kind of concurrently and it's going really well. So props to her.

That was really cool. That's cool. Yeah. And did we recap your Alcatraz swim last time? I can't remember. I don't think so, because it was before. Right.

Remember we moved it before. That's right, because we taped early, then you were gone. So we haven't gotten the full breakdown. So I'll give- This is gonna be a whole race report oriented podcast. It is, there's a lot of race report.

I'll give you my basic race, but I was hoping, I was, to be quite honest with you, slightly annoyed with my performance because I'd been getting better and a little bit faster for me. And I had my goal of, I thought for sure I'd break an hour and I wanted to break 50 minutes.

It's a 1.27 mile swim. I ended up covering 1.6 miles. Yeah. Which hurt my time. And then I still think I had the hour within my grasp until you see my finishing kick. Blake, can you zoom in on my- So we're pulling up Blake's-

Look at my line, look at that beautiful line. And then look at that. Once you're in Aquatic Cve park, you're basically there. It's still water, you're done. Why are you going up and down and backwards? You might ask why I'm going backwards at that moment. I am asking you that actually. Do you have an answer?

I had no idea. So for sure, there is one reason. There were sailboats in the cove, which I didn't know. And so I had to go around like three different sailboats, but that certainly doesn't mean you should go backwards. There should be a forward way. There are a couple of reasons why it was difficult for me. First, more difficult was it was actually a warm day.

It was 64 degrees. So it was perfectly comfortable. I was in no wetsuit. That's warmer than the Pacific this past weekend. Oh yeah, definitely. And it was, there was a chop. There was a cross current that made it a little more challenging.

And then sighting is more challenging. I'm used to swimming along the coast. So crossing even a small channel like that. Did they have buoys up? They had kayakers. Oh, right. And so I was with my buddy, John Moore, who I swim with out here.

And he and I both said, let's go out because Antonio told us, go a little bit further to the right and then you'll catch the current in. Towards the bridge. Yeah, go a little bit towards the bridge and then catch the current in. We thought we went a little too far out.

And then we caught the current in, which was good. But by the time I got to Aquatic Park, I thought I was, I just kept going the wrong way. Many times I thought the finish line was on the far side. It turned out it was on the near side and I screwed it up. So, you know, the bottom line is I've done a 5K swim. I've done Alcatraz and I've done a four mile swim once in the Bahamas ages ago.

And each time I came near the end, never the last, but very close to last. This time at least I was in the middle of the pack. So like there is that, I did better. That's huge. Yeah, but also I didn't make my goal time and I am slightly annoyed, which means I have to do Alcatraz again.

Right, but if you zoom out and you can see this arc in your trajectory, that's typical. And I think that that was wise advice to tack to your right, because we talked about this before, like the longer you start in between the ebb and the slack. So there's this kind of dead zone that is very temporary, but quickly the tide is gonna start coming in

and you know that you're gonna get pushed to your left. So it is wise to tack to your right. The idea is that in that tacking, then as the tide picks up, you're gonna get pushed to your left. And ultimately what you're gonna see is a straight line, not quite as arced as that, but- It's not even really arced, it's more jagged.

Like if you really zoom in on all these- In the middle there, there's something weird going on where suddenly you started swimming out towards the Golden Gate Bridge for some reason. No Rich, that's art, that's art. Yeah, that's Strava art, right? That's Strava art, I was trying to- You should have spelled Zuma out there.

That's a cry for help is what that is. But nice job. You did it without a wetsuit. Thanks, man. I would have liked to have seen the starting position a little bit closer to Alcatraz. It's a permit situation. Is that what it is?

The boat was close to Alcatraz. I don't know if that's maybe where the GPS picked it up. You know how that happened? I don't know if that ever happens with you. My watch, definitely it happens. You know how that happened? I don't know if that ever happens with you. My watch definitely it happens. You are in the shadow of the island, but you can't start on the island for whatever reason. So you did it in one hour and two minutes.

You have a 2.13 per hundred yard pace. It's in the record books. What I did, I swam too long. Is that like, is that amount of, is that normal to swim 1.6 for a 1.3, do you think? And like, do you think you swam close? Let's pull up my Strava from the Malibu triathlon, which was yesterday.

Zoom in on that. I mean, obviously this is a shorter, is a quick little swim. What I see is a very straight line, Adam. Now I concede that there are differences in current. I had buoys, I had all kinds of things, but what you don't see are a lot of jagged lines and bowed out arms or anything like that.

You don't. You also see a 109 per 100 yard pace. Yes. Now I will couch that with the caveat that there was a little bit of running. I had to run into the water and then I had, you know, a jog out up onto the sand and then to the transition. And you were in a wetsuit.

Which I was wearing a wetsuit, yes. Which obviously lowers the pace. There's me coming out. See all those people around there. They all have, see how they all have different colored caps. Yeah. That's because they were from earlier heats. So don't be confused.

Oh. Those people did not start with me. They started many minutes ahead. And they didn't finish with you. So I'm gonna blow my own horn a little bit. They finished behind you. That's a nice little, nice little like surf behind you. There was some surf that day.

It was pretty chill out there. There was just a beach break at the end. I mean, it was actually very calm. It was, the conditions were great. The water was fine. I didn't see any sharks, although I was comforted in knowing they were all around me the whole time. We'll get into more about the Malibu Triathlon in a minute.

But that's over half, it was supposed to be a half mile swim and you swam a couple hundred yards too long as well, right? Yeah, it says 1200. I thought maybe the swim was longer cause it was supposed to be, I thought it was like a 700 meter swim, which well with the running part, it got added to it cause I didn't turn the garment off

until I was in the transition zone. So there was a good, I don't know, more than a quarter mile of running. That's a hell of a pace though, dude. I don't wanna spoil it. You tell the story, but you really kicked ass. Well, I mean, look, we had fun. So here's how it came about.

Alexi Pappas, podcast favorite, contacted me. She said that she'd been contacted by the Malibu Triathlon and invited to do the celebrity race as a relay. She wanted to know if I would do it with her, which of course that sounds like fun. And she got her bestie, Mary Kane involved, also friend of the pod. So this is a pod-tastic relay team that we put together.

But isn't Mary a runner? Mary, for those that don't know, was the greatest runner of her generation as a young person. Her career didn't really pan out as she would have liked. She had experiences training under Alberto Salazar, the Nike Oregon project that kind of derailed expectations around her becoming this great Olympic champion.

She has now emerged from that phase of her life and started this running team called Atalanta in New York City. That's all about women empowerment, athlete empowerment. And she's been spending time on the bike. So she doesn't have any experience racing bikes or doing triathlons, but she was doing the bike leg, Alexi, the run leg, and I agreed to do the swim leg.

And I thought this is gonna be great. First of all, crazy that we would be invited to do the celebrity division of this race. Cause it's like, are they hard up for like, traditionally over the years, like the Malibu Triathlon is like an institution in Malibu. And it's the celebration, not only of multi-sport, but of our community.

And it's really the only multi-sport race that I'm aware of where there's this intersection between the entertainment industry like Hollywood with something athletic. And over the years, it's been graced by many in A-list movie star. Like J-Lo did it. I remember when she did it. Matthew McConaughey has done it.

Like a lot of people that you know from movies and television participate in this. They raise tons of money for Children's Hospital, I believe, and various charities over the years. So I thought this will be hilarious. Let's do it. We're actually all athletes. I wouldn't consider us celebrities in the traditional sense,

but we should just destroy this because like we're gonna be competing against people on reality TV shows and like sitcom actors and people on CBS shows or something, you know, like this is gonna be great. Rizzoli, you're gonna compete against Rizzoli. Rizzoli and Isles and the guys from Suits

and like stuff like that, right? Cause that's the way it's always been. Right. And what was really fun and fantastic and surprising and amazing and also like tricky about the whole thing is we show up and it turns out that there are a couple people that you know from like Chase Crawford, like people who are in movies and television,

there was like five or six of those types of people. But for the most part, all the relay teams in the celebrity division were stacked with professional triathletes and Olympians. Like basically all of the people who meddled in the Tokyo Olympics in triathlon were all like on various relay teams. So- Why?

Way more often than not, like these teams were propagated by legit, like, you know, elite athletes in their prime, triathletes in their prime. Doing a shakeout. And not reality TV stars. And part of that is because, you know, just for some context,

an organization called Super League Triathlon, which is this new race series in triathlon that's oriented around like really good prize money for the triathletes, as well as trying to get audience excitement around triathlon because they re-imagined the format to make it much more washable and exciting for the viewer. And it's a big deal in Europe.

They do all these races as part of a circuit, they accumulate points. Well, Super League Triathlon, the organization, purchased the Malibu Triathlon, so they now own it. And this was the first North American instance of Super League Triathlon being conducted in this part of the world. So on Saturday, that was all the pros raced.

And you have like the Olympic champion, Christian Blue, you had Lucy Charles Barkley, who just won the 70.3 world championships a couple of weeks ago, like all of these super elite, you know, young people. And then they just took all of those incredible athletes and said, we'll put you guys on relays in the celebrity division.

So a lot of them had like two Olympians or like, and then they'll have one person who's kind of like the Achilles heel, like Hollywood person or whatever. So that changed the sort of complexion of this whole thing. Cause we're going in and going thinking, we're gonna destroy this thing. There's nobody who's gonna come anywhere near to us.

And that was a big catalyst for getting me back into the pool and like training with some intentionality around it. So not that I'm in any kind of race fit situation right now, but at least I've been mixing it up in the pool and felt comfortable kind of getting after it. So we show up at the transition area in the morning, you know, and it's like, we're racking our bike

right next to Lucy Charles Barkley, you know, and then there's Christian Blue. No relation. Yeah, no relation to the Charles Barkley from the NBA. Yeah. But you know, like a superstar in triathlon. And there's, I had met Christian Blue a couple nights prior at an event.

And then there he is. And he had another Tokyo Olympian doing the swim on his relay. Like it was like the transition area felt like being in the transition area of like the elite performers in all of the sport. That's crazy. Which was great.

So I line up for the swim, I'm doing the swim leg and I'm looking around and I'm not seeing a lot of like elite type people. So I thought, maybe I got this thing sorted out. Like, I think I'm in good shape. And they're counting down there, like the two minute warning, the one minute warning. And then with like 30 seconds to go

before the gun was gonna go off for our heat, like five or six athletes suddenly like run up from the water and like join our group. Like they'd been like the real triathletes had been in the water warming up, you know, they show up at the last minute and I was like, oh, nevermind. Were you at the front?

Did you like nose your way to the front? Yeah, I'm like looking, where's my line? Like, where do I line up? I'm like, yeah, I'm very like, you know, I'm all about that. So my aspirations for like winning, you know, my heat of the swim went out the window. You didn't get wet first at all?

You were dry? Yeah, I should have, I should have actually. Does that help getting a little wet first? Yeah, of course, you should warm up. I don't know why I didn't, that was dumb. But anyway, we run into the water and to the first buoy, I was right up, you know, I was in, I was sort of on the heels.

I was in the lead pack, but kind of in the back part of the lead pack of like five or six people. And we round the first buoy and head alongside the shore. And I lost touch with that group. I fell off the back. And I thought, oh man, like I thought I was like a better swimmer

than maybe I am. Like I need to like reevaluate. You're re-evaluating your life on that back stretch. I need to rethink like, cause I was like, I'm a pretty good swimmer. Like of people my age, there aren't very many people my age that can swim, you know, as well.

And so I thought I could be competitive with any of these people. And when I fell off the back of that group, I literally was like, yeah, I was examining my life. I thought, you know what? You've really indulged your ego here. Like this, you're really not all that dude. So you need to really recalibrate.

You're just lashing yourself. And you need a lot more training. And you're like, I'm running this whole thing in my head the whole time. You're like, how dare you, Rich? How dare you? And then I get out, we run up the shore. And the thing is like, there's a bunch of,

like we were the fourth wave or something like that. So you start catching up to the waves before, the slower people in the waves before you. And then it becomes like this obstacle course of just like swimming around all of these people, run up on shore, have a much longer run of the transition than I would have preferred. That was actually the hardest part of the whole thing.

Is that why you were doubled over? Were you tired from the run or from the swim? The run was really the thing that like blew me out. Because when you get out of the water in soft sand, it's grueling. It's like, yeah. But then you run up and then you're on pavement. They have like this carpet on this pavement to take you.

And the transition area for like the quote unquote celebrity division was all the way at the end. So you had to run through the entire transition area for all of the participants to get to the very, very end. So yeah, I was definitely fatigued and I was beating myself up. God, I thought I was gonna be better. I was gonna be out with a lead group.

And they were like, no, you were fine. Everybody who beat you was a professional. So then I felt better. But you weren't- No non-professional triathlete beat me out of the water. So that was my, like, that's the thing I'm gonna hang my hat on. But you also said you were in a group of five and you fell off the back.

I think I came out, I came out fourth, I think. Yeah, you came out fourth. And then I looked at the results, apparently so that, so the organization sends you the results. The funny thing is I get this email and they're like, here's your results. We don't publish the celebrity division results.

Oh, that was interesting. Why not? Yeah, I couldn't find them. I was looking for them. They don't want that on the internet. Like if some TV person doesn't want anyone to know like how long it took them to run, you know, the thing or whatever.

But anyway, so yeah, I was like, I think I was 13 something, 13, 15. The fastest was 11, 25. And then there were a couple 12. So I was a minute and a half or whatever off the back of people who do this for a living who are in their twenties. So then I felt a lot better about myself.

Then good job. Mary gets on the bike. She does phenomenal. Like she doesn't even have a proper cycling kit. This is how new she is too. And she got a flat like before the thing even started. Who fixed it? She thought her break was wrong.

Yeah, like when I'm swimming, she's like, I have a flat. She got Christian to help her fix her bike. She got the guy who won the gold medal in the Olympics of triathlon to help get her bike sorted out in time. You're in the right team. That's when you know you're on the right team. So Mary goes off, she has a great ride,

for somebody who has no experience. And Alexi of course is like the team captain and the cheerleader and she's mugging for the camp. I mean, Alexi is just unbelievable. I wish they could both be here today to share. Mary had to fly back to New York. Maybe we'll get Alexi in here for a future Coach's Corner and we can talk more about what went down.

She was phenomenal. And how'd she run? She do like- She great. Like sub six minute miles and stuff. I don't know what her pace was, but it was fast. Like it's not a joke. Like she's for real. I was thinking it had to be in the fives, right?

Per mile, don't you think? I would have to look, I would have to pull it up. I wouldn't be surprised, but we held our place. So I think we, yeah, we ended up fourth, which considering that we were racing against teams that had, you know, two Olympians, we were the fastest team that had less than two Olympians on it.

Less than two. So we didn't win, but I feel really good about how we did. Most importantly, we had a really fun time and it was cool to mix it up with those Olympians and joke around with them and stuff like that. So super fun. Shout out to my boy, Dylan Efron, who did, he was in the celebrity division,

but he didn't do it as a relay. He did it the whole thing himself and he took the W for the men's. Really? Is he related to Zach Efron? Yeah, he's Zac's brother. Okay. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Incredible athlete and showed up and rocked it out. Rocked it. Yeah. Cool, I would like to shout out Julie Shakia, who's a swimmer that swims with us at Point Doom a lot. And she swam collegiately at Cal State Northridge. She had a team with her niece Raven and Raven was on the bike, a bike she had just bought like 10 days ago. She's a team with her niece Raven and Raven was on the bike,

a bike she had just bought like 10 days ago. She's a great athlete too. She played tennis in college at LMU and Julie swam, like I said, and Julie was fourth out of the water on the Saturday race and they finished 11th overall. That's great. And yeah, so they did amazing.

And so shout out to them. What a great event. You know what? I would have loved to have been part of it. Maybe I'll orient my life next year towards trying to. You should. At a minimum, being the swimmer on a relay would be fun. No one's really asking me to do that.

Well, we have a whole year to campaign for that. I will say this. I need to get faster. Lots of podcast fans out there this weekend. So thank you to everybody who came up and said hello, took lots of selfies with people. And there was a lot of collegiates there. So a lot of colleges sent their triathlon team.

So there were packs of like young people, like the Air Force Academy and this university, that university, Cal had a huge team there. And it was really fun to talk to all the college kids and to see, especially the collegiate women, young girls, young women responding to Alexi and Mary, because they're just like icons to young female athletes. And it was really cool to see that interaction.

And just to celebrate multi-sport and do it in a really supportive environment and celebrate Malibu and the oceans. You guys seemed like you had a great time. So yeah, it was really fun. It like comes across in all the videos. It was really fun. Yeah.

And how's the overall kind of, you said this was the impetus to take swimming more seriously, but you've been, I mean, you've been in the pool and in the gym, how's that all going? How's your back feeling? It's good. I mean, I've been in the pool and in the gym, how's that all going? How's your back feeling? It's good, I mean, I feel like I'm at the very beginning of it, you know, my body's gotten a lot bulkier

from being in the gym and swimming a lot. I'm more top heavy than I'm used to feeling. And that's like weird, sometimes I like it, sometimes I don't, but I am enjoying focusing on swimming. It is my strength and it's the one thing that, you know, I haven't like ever really fully indulged as a later stage athlete, you know, like I've done all these triathlons,

but I've never really focused on like, what if I doubled down on the thing that I'm best at and see where that can take me. And I'm kind of interested in exploring that right now. Like for masters or for channel crossings? More like, yeah, like open water, distance swimming. Let's see what's in store there. And it was really all catalyzed by this back injury

that has forced me to take a little bit of a break from running. So it's that idea of making lemonade out of lemons a little bit or identifying the opportunity and the setback and just saying, okay, well, this is where I'm at. Here's what I can do while I'm trying to sort out my back issues, which I'm actively working on,

working with this wonderful woman named Monica Leslie, who actually she was introduced to me by Alexi and she came down for the race as well. She's really been helping me out with a whole variety of exercises and I've been in the gym and just approaching it with intentionality. So yeah, we'll see.

We'll see, but it was fun to- Catalina? Catalina what? Doing the Catalina swim? Yeah. I don't know if Hank Wise has anything to say about it. Hank Wise called us. I'll play you the message. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

You should hear, yeah, I'd like to hear, Hank is the best. Yeah, I wanna meet him. Yeah, he's great. So for those that don't know, Hank was a teammate of mine at Stanford, who's now not only a very accomplished open water swimmer, but also a coach, lives down in the Long Beach area. And just a character.

Yeah, he's a character. And he does all kinds of like recipe videos on Instagram. He's dolphin boy on Instagram. And he makes like vegan salads and stuff like that. He's so charismatic and entertaining. Yeah, and he has the record for the fastest Catalina crossing. Oh, he does, okay.

Well, the reason I brought up Catalina is cause you know, that's the Jim McConaughey tale is he was Jim McConaughey was a storied USC swimmer. He's from Ventura and he's a lifeguard now on the beach here in Malibu, but he was, he lived in Ventura. He wasn't a lifeguard yet. He was just working.

His family had car dealerships. He's working in the family business and making money. And I guess he turned 50. He stopped, he was something like an eighth or maybe a hundredth of a second or two hundredths of a second off of making the Olympic team in 1972 or something. Didn't happen.

Gave up swimming, ended up working. By the time he turned 50, he's kind of overweight. And he's watching stuff on the couch. He's like, what am I doing with my life? And he decides, you know what? I'm gonna get back in the pool. And he ends up setting every record for all these Channel Islands.

At one point he held every single one, including Catalina. I think he's got the record for being the oldest for time and age and several of them still. Wow. And he's, I think he's 70, in his 70s. Now I did a story on him and a relay he did from St. Nicholas Island, which is behind Catalina for the New York Times

and kind of swam with the Ventura Deep Enders. He has a master's group called the Deep Enders. They're the deep end of the pool, but they also do a lot of open water swimming in Ventura. And he started, like I said, I mean, if he doubled down on his strength like that, like who knows what you could do really. Wow, that's cool, that's inspiring.

Yeah, yeah. And Jim's great, a great guy. I think this is your path. My path? Yeah. You got the Alcatraz swim in, you got a little taste of it. I did. What I like about swim, run and swimming is

I like this idea of through courses. Like what I wanna do to train before I get into Catalina is I wanna do from Sunset Point to the Venice skate park, just do a swim run. I have this idea of like swim running, but big sur coastline or swimming the Nepali coastline. Like that's the kind of stuff I'm interested in. The full channel swim, you have to hire a boat

and you have to do like, that just doesn't interest me right now. Rules. You're an experiential athlete. I wear a mask, bro. I wear a mask. You do wear a mask. I swim where masks are tolerated.

I wear a mask, bro. Yeah. I wear a mask. You do wear a mask. I swim where masks are tolerated. I don't know how tolerant they would have been. The Malibu Triathlon community, highly tolerant. Yeah. I think your mask might've tested that tolerance. You think?

You'll never know until you try. Yeah, it would've been funny to see. All right, let's take a quick break and we'll be back with more from Mr. Adam Skolnick and myself. We're brought to you today by recovery.com. I've been in recovery for a long time. It's not hyperbolic to say that I owe

everything good in my life to sobriety. And it all began with treatment and experience that I had that quite literally saved my life. And in the many years since, I've in turn helped many suffering addicts and their loved ones find treatment. And with that, I know all too well just how confusing and how overwhelming and how overwhelming and how challenging it can be to find the right place and the right level of care, especially because, unfortunately, not all treatment resources adhere to ethical practices. It's a real problem. A problem I'm now happy and proud to share has been solved by the people at recovery.com who created an online support portal designed to

guide, to support, and empower you to find the ideal level of care tailored to your personal needs. They've partnered with the best global behavioral health providers to cover the full spectrum of behavioral health disorders, including substance use disorders, depression, anxiety, eating disorders, gambling addictions, and more. Navigating their site is simple. Search by insurance coverage, location, treatment type, you name it. Plus, you can read reviews from former patients to help you decide. Whether you're a busy exec, a parent of a struggling teen, or battling addiction yourself, exec, a parent of a struggling teen, or battling addiction yourself. I feel you. I empathize with you. I really do. And they have treatment options for you. Life and recovery is wonderful, and recovery.com is your partner in starting that journey. When you or a loved one need help,

go to recovery.com and take the first step towards recovery. To find the best treatment option for you or a loved one, again, go to recovery.com. We're brought to you today by recovery.com. I've been in recovery for a long time. It's not hyperbolic to say that I owe everything good in my life to sobriety. And it all began with treatment and experience that I had that quite literally saved my life. And in the many years since, I've in turn helped many suffering addicts and their loved ones find treatment.

And with that, I know all too well just how confusing and how overwhelming and how challenging it can be to find the right place and the right level of care, especially because, unfortunately, not all treatment resources adhere to ethical practices. It's a real problem. A problem I'm now happy and proud to share has been solved by the people at recovery.com, who created an online support portal designed to guide, to support, and empower you to find the ideal level of care tailored to your personal needs. They've partnered with the best global behavioral health providers to cover

the full spectrum of behavioral health disorders, including substance use disorders, depression, anxiety, eating disorders, gambling addictions, and more. Navigating their site is simple. Search by insurance coverage, location, treatment type, you name it. Plus, you can read reviews from former patients to help you decide. Whether you're a busy exec, a parent of a struggling teen, or battling addiction yourself, I feel you. I empathize with you. I really do. And they have treatment options for you. Life in recovery is wonderful, and recovery.com is your partner in starting that journey. When you or a loved one need help, go to recovery.com and take the first step towards recovery. To find the best treatment option for you or a loved one, again, go to recovery.com.

All right, so what else? We're both going up to the Surf Ranch this week. That's right. Explain what the Surf Ranch is. The Surf Ranch, a brainchild of Kelly Slater. I don't know if he's still associated with it or not, but he wanted to basically create a way to ride the perfect waves in the middle of the,

you know, inland somewhere. And so to launch this, this was the first one, I think that they built, there's multiple now. There's one in Waco, Texas. I know. Is that still part of the same thing? I don't think they're owned by the same organization. So I think there's a foil that kind of runs on a track

that builds this wave and there's different levels and depends on which part of, I guess, the pool that you're in. I've never been to it before, but Red Bull is having a day at the surf ranch. Apparently sponsors that work with WSL, cause WSL owns it now, are able to like part of the package

when they sponsor a competition or whatever it else is, is they get a day at the surf ranch. So at this day, Kai Lenny and Jamie O'Brien are gonna be there. Zion Wright, the skateboarder is gonna be there.

I'm gonna go up and talk to both those surfers, New York Times Sports. And I'm talking to them about a couple of features on both those guys. So we will see what happens, but that's my kind of impetus for me going.

I'm a little terrified of surfing in front of them. Not surfing, but surfing in front of them. I'm not a surfer. Indulge your vulnerability. I've stood up on waves. It's an opportunity for performative vulnerability. When's the last time you- I feel the same way.

Like I've been asked before and I couldn't make the schedule work, but if I was being really honest, there was a little intimidation. It's like, I'm gonna go up here. Like I've surfed, but I wouldn't consider myself a surfer. When's the last time you stood up on a wave? I mean, seven years maybe.

Like I just, I don't do it. You know, I don't do it. I've gone through periods where I've done it and then I can get somewhat proficient so I can kind of stand up and ride a wave, but it's been so long. Like I, you know, so it's like the idea of going there and like all these pro surfers are there.

You're gonna go, but they do in the information that they sent us, they have like beginner baby waves and stuff like that. So I think we're just gonna have to get over ourselves. Dude, I'm gonna give it a shot. It's been over 10 years since I stood up on a wave. But being a guy who's written about surfing for the New York Times, it makes me even doubly,

like I feel like I'm gonna be unmasked. You are gonna be unmasked. I've been a, I've kind of profile. The mask is really, you're hiding behind. Who are you, Adam? What are you hiding behind that snorkel mask? Who is anybody, Rich? Right now- That's a deflection.

Right now, I'm the guy that's re-listening to the David Cho podcast that you just did. That's how much I liked it. And also kind of like recognizing some internal character flaws that I carry, but we'll have a good time. I'm so glad you're gonna come. That's gonna be fun.

I can't wait. A couple running related things I wanna mention quickly before we pivot. One is our boy, David Greenberg just did his first half marathon. David. This past weekend. This is a guy who,

Davey, like you have never done any races before, right? Like never had been a runner. Did you play sports in high school? Not well. Not well. Has discovered running. He's the artist that has become a runner. The catalyst here to give full credit is Hellas Adebay.

Like I think really inspired you, right? To get after it. And you've like taken that mantle and you got serious about training for the LA marathon. Come on over here, Davey. And Davey just ran his first race this past weekend, half marathon. And I gotta say, man, I'm super proud of you.

It's impressive. So we pulled up your Strava. Let's look at the stats here. So pace, what was your average pace? 7.11. 7.11 pace in your very first half marathon. I was trying to chill. The original plan was to take my time and just finish,

but then I got competitive. So we got, yeah, you start off with 828, 710, 706, 656, 659, 707, 704, 647, 650, 658, 703, 716, 640, 627. Look at that end. Impressive and incredibly consistent. And there's some hills in there too, right? Between mile two and three, I think it's called the California Climb.

It was a lot. Dude. Yeah, it was fun. I'm seeing a whole new thing for you, man. What's great has been, you've been sharing this on social media, on Davey Runs, and the enthusiasm and the kind of community that you've been sharing this on social media, on Davey Runs and the enthusiasm and the kind of community that you've like surrounded yourself with and like invested in with the Koreatown

runners and et cetera. Like you look like you're having a lot of fun and it's almost like this light has gone off inside of you. It is one of the most fun things I've ever done. And yeah, figuring that out in my mid thirties has been really cool. That's cool. Right, like you, I remember after I started

kind of doing the podcast with you guys, you did like a four mile run. You did some run that was like the first run you'd ever, you had done in maybe ages or something. That was like a year ago, right? Yeah, I started like during the pandemic basically. And then you stopped for a minute, right? Yeah, and then I got burnt out. And then Hella came in. And then you stopped for a minute, right? Yeah, and then I got burnt out.

And then Hella came in. And then Hella came in and Selema doing his, after he was on the show did one mile a day for 30 days, then I decided to do, and then we had Hella on the show. And then I just, yeah. You've been doing it ever since. Now I'm rocking, yeah. How's that Koreatown club?

So fun, it's five times a week, like a big crew of people and it's really exciting. That's great, yeah. And LA Marathon is when? November 7th. Cool. And then the Big Sur Marathon. Oh, I didn't know you signed up for another one.

I got into the drawing there, so yeah. That's not easy, that one. Yeah, no, that's a different animal. Yeah, there's some different animal. Yeah. There's some weather and some hills. Let's get through one first. Good. Awesome.

Well, we'll continue to share that experience and it's great, man. I think, you know, Hella has had a big impact on a lot of people, like having Hella on the show. Jason, our producer and engineer started his run streak after Hella was on the show and has not missed a day. I think he's like, is it in the 69, 70s?

He's in the 70s. He's in the 70s now. He might be at 80, I don't know. And then we got Blake who ran, what did he do? 13 miles with like 2,500 feet of elevation over the weekend. That's right. Blake is our video dude. And we didn't, I mean, David Greenberg is our photographer.

So I love the trickle down, like kind of, you know, impact. But to be honest, that's what the real world, real world, you know, real world results in terms of like impacting other people, which I love is great. But that's what the Rich Roll crew should be. You should be a bunch of people getting. I hope so.

Otherwise, what are we doing here? What does your podcast do, Rich, which we're gonna get into a little bit later. But watching both those guys, Davey and Blake in particular, cause I have Davey on Instagram, Blake on Strava, seeing all that happen. And you're right.

I mean, Blake's run was really inspiring and seeing Davey's footage and the way he's so happy and smiling. It inspires the shit out of me. Yeah. It's really great. It's the sheer joy and glee of it all. I think that is the infectious part of the way Davey's been sharing.

And I've seen those Koreatown Run guys. They did a run on the beach when I was swimming one morning and they did like a 16 miler, like start like the whole bike path or something. And it's fun. I mean, I could see in this day and age where like it's kind of problematic to go out and party or to go to clubs or to go even to go to shows.

A lot of people are doing it, but a lot of people probably are still afraid to do it. To do something like this that is social. It's probably a great thing. Yeah. And there's multiple clubs and organizations. I mean, there's the besties, you got the besties crew is besties is a vegan restaurant here in LA

and they've got a run crew. And you're gonna be spending more time downtown, right? So there's the blacklist crew down there that I'm sure you'll vibe with. So it's gonna be cool. And there's, I've got a crew. You do, what's your crew? April and Zuma.

Zuma and April. Zuma and April. Zuma's out front. I'm usually pushing the baby sled. Well, she's got the half marathon thing, so. I'm the assistant. I think you're missing the opportunity here. To join her?

Yeah. I'd like to. It's gonna depend on the weekend. Like, so she, that one is, is it the Malibu half marathon? Yeah, the Malibu half marathon. It's just gonna be a matter of, can we get someone to watch Zuma? Because he wouldn't wanna be pushed around for 13 miles at my pace.

If Davey pushed him, he might be able to do it, but at my pace, it wouldn't work. So- That sounds like a solvable problem. But there's actually, the solvable part is that there is, you could do it virtually. And April hasn't decided if she's gonna go to the race or do it virtually, it's gonna depend on multiple factors.

So she's gotta decide that if it's virtual, then I can certainly join into it. All right. One more running thing I wanna mention is for those of you that follow me on Instagram, you may know this already. I have a partnership with 10,000 makers of the finest men's training gear on the planet.

I've hinted over the past several months of a super secret project that I've been working with them on over the course of the past year. That project is coming to its fruition. It is a new line of run gear for men that we're calling FAR, which means free association run. It's essentially a kit, a shirt that comes in long sleeve and short sleeve and shorts in two different color palettes

that are made out of recycled materials, tailored to my specifications. And we've made some really cool kind of next evolution with respect to the running shorts in terms of like the liner and how the phone pocket works and all of that. I'm gonna be sharing more about that because this product line is gonna be coming out soon.

I'm so excited about it. I've never worked with a company that's been so responsive to feedback and so interested in trying to get it right. Like these guys, we went through a bazillion iterations. They would send me sample after sample after sample. And what about this fabric? And what about that fabric?

And we just went back and forth literally for a full year to get this right. And they were so committed to making sure that it was correct and that it lived up to all of our expectations. And I'm really proud of what we've created and can't wait until it's available for all you guys and that I can share a little bit more about it.

But we're in this kind of pre-order campaign phase right now, so if you wanna be among the very first to be able to order it or to learn more when we break public with it, the best way to do that is to text BTY to the number 29071, or there's a link, a URL that I will share in the show notes or in the description below,

if you're watching this on YouTube, but excited about what 10,000 is creating and excited to have you guys experience it firsthand soon enough. And when it comes out, we're gonna do the next roll, that roll on in the outfit. We will for sure be doing that. In the gear.

Yes, we will be doing that for sure. All right, when we opened the show, we talked about this show being biweekly. This has become like a thing, right? It started when I was confused as to whether biweekly meant twice a week or once every two weeks. And then last week, I did a deep dive into Merriam-Webster and realized that it actually can be accurately defined

as either, like bi-monthly is defined as something that occurs every other month or every other week, which is ludicrous. So that means that this show roll on can be accurately defined as either bi-weekly or bi-monthly, which makes no sense. None. And somebody on social media forwarded me a video

on TikTok from this guy called stage door Johnny, who does TikTok videos about problems with the English language, like on semi-colons and punctuation and stuff like that. And he did a whole riff on this very subject that I shared on Instagram when I said, Adam, I feel seen. This is it.

I do not feel alone anymore and not understanding what is happening with our language. So Blake pulled this up for those that are watching I do not feel alone anymore in not understanding what is happening with our language. So Blake pulled this up for those that are watching on video. So let's play it from the beginning. Maybe refresh the page and we can play it from the very beginning with the volume up. So that's daily, weekly, monthly, yearly.

Don't forget hourly, something that happens once an hour. Of course. Now a tricky one. What about something that happens twice a week? Bi-weekly good one the prefix by denoting two like bicycle binoculars what about twice a month bi-monthly perfect now what about something that only happens once every two weeks bi-weekly no that was for two times in one week and for something that happens only once every two weeks. Actually, because most months have four weeks in them,

doesn't bi-monthly cover that too? Twice a month, once every two weeks. But some months have five weeks. Plus, I want bi-monthly to mean once every two months as well. So in a two-month period, if something is bi-monthly, it either happens once or four times. Yeah. All right. It. All right.

It's so good. But we also had listeners from across the pond weigh in and they think it should be fortnightly. Yeah, they were confused as to why we wouldn't just be calling this fortnightly. And then someone else-

What they don't understand is that here in America, no one knows what the- I didn't know what fortnight meant. Right, that's what- And then on- Just like I don't understand is that here in America, no one knows what the, I didn't know what Fortnite meant. Well, right, that's what, and then on in the comments. Just like I don't know what a stone means. Well, like in the comments, I forget if it was YouTube or if it was on your Instagram, but in the comments,

it was kind of like, oh yeah, Americans don't use Fortnite. It was like a whole conversation amongst themselves, but I think we should double down on Fortnitely. I think so. Yeah, like Wimbledon is the Fortnite. Are we sure, first of all, are we sure that that's what Fortnite means? Yeah, Fortnite is twoly. I think so. Yeah, like Wimbledon is the fortnight. First of all, are we sure that that's what fortnight means?

Yeah, fortnight is two weeks. Thought fortnight was a video game. Oh, no, I definitely don't feel seen. Is that the same thing as Tecmo Bowl? That's the last video game I played. All right, fortnight it is words. Fortnight. Words, Adam. Once every fortnight. They have one job.

The whole purpose of language is to help us make sense of reality. No, Adam. Once every fortnight. They have one job. The whole purpose of language is to help us make sense of reality. No, we purposely- Not to obfuscate it. I mean, we- The royal we? The collective we, and I mean writers, we made it complicated so you'd have to hire us.

Right, we don't want it to be easy. Right. Cause then you need to- You're the gatekeeper, right? This is what like the whole legal profession is founded on. Right, we don't want it to be easy. Right. Because then you need to- You're the gatekeeper, right? This is what like the whole legal profession is founded on. Right, exactly. Using a bunch of Latin phrases to create a barrier

so that you don't actually understand concepts that actually aren't that difficult to understand. It's weird. It's like, if the country had been founded by doctors, would everything be just different? Or if it would have been founded by like, it was founded by lawyers. That interesting?

Yeah, but you know, we have to create rules for society, which is what the law is about. We meaning you and your lawyer kind? We the royal we, the founding fathers royal we. Writers couldn't found anything, no founding coming from writers. All right, we got to careen up towards the break here, but I know that you wanted to quickly,

because in addition to your desire to make this a swim run podcast, that is supplanted only by your desire to make it a free diving oriented podcast. So I will indulge you with 60 seconds of free diving. The 60 minutes. Exploration. 60 minutes and 60 seconds.

I just wanted to give props to Alexey Molchanov, the King of the deep according to 60 minutes. That's what they called him. He was featured on 60 minutes and he was featured basically his record breaking dive in vertical blue for constant weight with the monofin where he broke his own world record. That was featured on 60 Minutes and he was interviewed

and he came off really, really well. I mean, he's just highly intelligent, really relaxed, a great ambassador for the sport. His goal is to eventually see it in the Olympics, whether that happens or not, we will see, but it does seem to be having a moment again, the sport. His goal is to eventually see it in the Olympics. Whether that happens or not, we will see. But it does seem to be having a moment again, the sport does. They've been on 60 Minutes before.

Will Trubridge, who's been his chief rival over the course of his career, was featured eight years ago. Also in Dean's Blue Hole, but not at the competition. Bob Simon came out and did a thing on him. This was a different reporter. But I thought he came off really well. And I just wanted to congratulate Alexi

and we can just put the link in the show notes. Yeah, that's cool. What was the occasion for him being on 60 Minutes now? Like it's cool that freediving is getting this mainstream, you know. You know, it happens every once in a while where like people become interested in this, in, you know, interesting subculture

where people are putting on their own competition and doing incredible things and, you know, holding their breath and going, you know, he went 132 meters, I think was the record he broke, 132, something like that. And so that's, you know, 400 and it's like almost 500 feet. And that's what he did on one breath. It took him almost five minutes to do it.

So that alone is incredible. Who knows what the impetus is? He gets coverage every once in a while, it comes up, and then that coverage often feeds other coverage. I love it. I like seeing these athletes get their due. It is interesting to see it though. Like, cause I haven't had my finger

on that pulse for a while. I mean, lately I did a story on Alexi for the times recently. So that was kind of my first free diving story in a long time. One thing I've noticed is the second tier, not the greatest, but like the second tier athletes are different than when I was covering it more regularly,

like 2014, 15. In what way? Just they're just different athletes because it's hard to maintain this lifestyle. You're paying your own way. Yeah, I thought you meant qualitatively, like just it's new people. New people.

A new blood. There's not longevity in this sport. Exactly, because you have to pay for everything. So if you're not making it your living and your lifestyle, it's hard to do it. But the best are still the best. Alenka and Alessia will be going head to head in the world championships next week.

Alexi's at the world championships. I think Will is not gonna make it. I believe his wife is giving birth to their second. So he won't be there. So kind of Alexi now, it's almost like similar to Novak in tennis, like Alexi's kind of on his own now. There's really not someone pushing him. There's no one close to him from what I can see.

And the women has two great athletes, like going head to head, exchanging records still. So it's a great sport, it's fun to tune into. You can see even more than when I was covering it, Dive Eye, which is this company that does the underwater camera on a track is at every major competition now. They'll be at the world championships.

So if you're interested in free diving, look for the world championships next week. And now they're building these deep pools. Yeah, so there's deep pools. So Alexi was at a deep pool in Dubai and met- Of course Dubai is probably, is that where the deepest pool is? There's one in Italy.

That was the first, I think. And now there's the one in Dubai because one of the leaders in Dubai, I forget who it is, is really interested in freediving. And he holds the biggest, in terms of money, competition. It's a static competition, face down in the water. And that's like the biggest payday in freediving.

At least it was for when I was covering it. I don't know if it's still active. And he's behind this pool, which includes little chambers and cool, like fake wrecks. And it's more theatrical than these other pools. And he met, Lexi met Dan Blazarian in Dubai, who's apparently taken up free diving. He met him at the pool and you know,

Lexi has this desire to, you know, he wants to build the sport in the United States. So it's, you know, it's like, it's like swim run. It's like even a lot of sports that do well overseas, but haven't really reached their peak here. And he wants to create more free divers in the United States. So you get Dan Bilzerian to do a free dive. To build a pool maybe in Vegas.

That's Alexi's newest thing. I said, we'll see. Well, we'll keep you posted on that. All right, well, we gotta close this down. But before we do that, there was also a big spread about Alexi and GQ where your book was quoted, but they didn't give you attribution, is that true?

Yeah, that's true. So there was a big spread in GQ also. Good story, people shared it with me. They pulled quotes that Natalia gave me and quoted it without attribution. So I did- Welcome to the modern media ecosystem. That's the way it is. I mean, for years,

people have been using some of my Natalia quotes that I got and printed in the book in New York Times, Outside Magazine, and they've been putting them on Instagram tiles. And after she died, that was done. I felt that was nice. You know, it's homage to her. I also, I think I'm the first to quote Wimbledon

or free diving is vertical blue. That's used in marketing materials. It's all fine. But when a journalist does it, it's a little bit annoying. So I emailed the guy and he apologized. The end. But if it's digital, was it in print? I mean, could they just fix it?

It's in print. But you know what? Here's the deal. It happened in production. According to what the writer said, he had it in there and then they cut it out because there's word counts. I get it. A fact checker shouldn't put that writer in that position.

A fact checker is there to make sure that if a writer's overlooking that or whatever, you're working on behalf of the reporter, the editor and the publication to make sure those things don't happen. Because I've had fact checkers who would never let that slide. They'd say, where'd you get that quote?

She's dead now. Where'd you get that quote? When was it done? And they would just figure out a way to make sure the attribution happens because that's what you're supposed to do. It should have said, he could have said told the New York times or told X, Y, Z,

whatever it is, told author Adam Skolnick or in the book, one breath without my name, doesn't, I don't need to be named checked, but I think that writers should, you know, people in the profession should have a standard. Thus concludes our 62nd segment on free diving. It only took three minutes. It went longer than that, I think.

Concluded with a treatise on journalistic ethics. Thank you, Adam Skolnick. Sorry, sorry. We'll take a quick break and we'll be back with a very interesting conversation with Lewis Pugh. There you go. Okay, and we're back. So we're gonna pivot to our brief conversation with Arctic swimmer, Lewis Pugh. We've talked about Lewis quite a bit on the podcast.

So I don't wanna spend too much time introducing him. But for those that are unfamiliar or new to this, Lewis is an environmentalist. He is somebody who has spent the last 30 years exploring the world by swimming, particularly swimming in very cold sections of the planet. He just completed this swim in Greenland, which was a world's first to draw attention

to the melting glaciers there. And it's just the latest ice swim that he's done to raise awareness for climate change. What else do we need to know about him? He's a hall of fame marathon swimmer. He is swim across the North Pole. He's swim, he's the first to do that. He's done the highest swim ever in a lake on Mount Everest.

The polar swim before this one was swimming in a melting glacier in Antarctica, literally going inside a glacier and swimming in a glacial tunnel. And just as always swim cap, goggles, and a swimsuit like a Speedo. Right, he's also a UN patron of the oceans. On November 5th, on the fifth day of COP26,

he's gonna be giving the opening address of the youth in oceans day, which is interesting. And he's really like an explorer in the very traditional sense of the word, right? Almost like out of a Wes Anderson movie, like a guy who would be knighted, you know, and spend his time in the explorers club, you know, surrounded by wood paneling and all kinds of knickknacks

from, you know, the heyday of humans exploring the far corners of the planet. Like in the, and I say that in the most, you know, kind of congratulatory, like sort of positive light. Yeah, he's erudite, he is diplomatic. He's a diplomat. He's a diplomat. He is a diplomat. He's a UN patron of the oceans, like you said,

and he is a professional diplomat and he emerges sports and diplomacy, but he also has this burning red coal, Greta Thunberg energy inside him too. Right. Because he is on a mission to try to save us from the climate crisis. And he is as driven to do that

as you see any activists anywhere. So that's what's so interesting. Yeah. Yeah. Super intelligent and well-spoken on all of the issues. So let's pivot to our conversation with him now. There he is. Hey, hey. We did it.

Rich, I, you know, myself and Adam tried to pull this thing off where Adam would come to Greenland. Adam, I'm so sorry we weren't able to pull it off, but it's really an honor to be able to speak to both of you today. Thank you so much for giving me the time. Well, we're delighted to have you. We were, of course, disappointed that Adam couldn't figure out with everything going on in the world

how to get to Greenland, but we followed your expedition very closely. We're both big longtime fans. I know that you have a preexisting relationship with Adam and we're just delighted in lieu of being able to do this in person to at least get you on a remote platform to help share your work and your advocacy today. So you're now safely ensconced in Cape Town. So thank you for joining us today. I think the first thing we're curious about is what drew you to Greenland this year? Like why Greenland? So walk us through how this expedition

came together and your thinking behind it. Thank you so much. I mean, I've been swimming now for 35 years and the last 18 of those have been in the polar regions. And so I'm always looking for a place where I can tell a story about what is happening to these unique environments and how it will impact us wherever you are in the world. And I was drawn to Greenland because it now has the fastest moving glacier in the world. So the glacier is on the west coast of Greenland. It's called Ilulissat. Ilulissat is the Inuit name for place of icebergs. And it certainly is that.

But this glacier now is moving at a speed of 40 meters per day in summer. So I just thought this is a place where I can share now, before the big climate change negotiations start next month, this is a place where I can share with the world what is happening. What is happening is that there's this dramatic ice melt, right? And we saw it in your swim where there were days you couldn't swim because there was so much ice kind of coming down the river and into the fjord. And it was like you said, swimming across a motorway,

but filled with icebergs. Is that correct? Yes. So I want you to imagine you've got the Greenland ice sheet, which is the second biggest ice sheet in the world. And on the edge, the ice sheet goes down valleys and becomes glaciers. And at the edge of the glacier, it is starting to carve and those carves into icebergs. And then for a length of about 60 kilometers down this long field, you've got thousands and thousands and thousands of icebergs.

And at the mouth of this field were a number of really big ones, a kilometer tall. It's astonishing. And they were grounded on the seabed. And so I was trying to swim on the outside of these icebergs across this field. And then at 4 a.m. one morning, I'll never, ever forget it. across this fjord. And then at 4am one morning, I'll never ever forget it, I opened my curtains and I looked out and one of these enormous icebergs was beginning to rotate. So it was breaking up and it was rotating and it opened up the floodgates and literally we had 60 kilometres worth of icebergs, thousands and thousands and thousands of them, going straight out to sea.

And within a few hours, they were 10 kilometres out to sea. By the next day, they had extended 50 kilometers to the north. Wherever you looked out at sea, there were just icebergs. There was no spare water anywhere, no clear water anywhere. And so then having to, in a few days time, there were some areas where I could do the swim. But again, as soon as I got into the water, it was like a motorway of ice. I'm taking off my clothes. We've got a clear route to swim, but within a short period of time, now a big iceberg has moved in our way. I've never seen a carving event like this in my life. Yeah. I think for most of us, Yeah, I think for most of us, intellectually, we understand global warming and climate change

to be the existential threat of our time, but it's purely an academic exercise for most of us. I mean, we're now seeing warming events and weather incidents that are making it much more experiential, but I think the power in your expedition and what you've just experienced is it really puts an exclamation point

on the present reality of what we're facing. And my sense is that it was even worse than what you expected in that you didn't realize there was gonna be this motorway of smaller icebergs to have to navigate. And that in truth, this scenario is far worse than what we might've imagined and much more present. And I think the narrative that comes out of your adventure is really helping all of us to embrace that reality

in a more fungible, tangible way. Yes, I mean, I agree with you. So we've all seen the horrendous fires which have been in California and in Turkey and in Greece and in Siberia. We've seen them on television and some people have witnessed them firsthand. And we've all seen the dreadful floods which occurred this year in Germany and in Belgium. And we've heard about the melting of the ice. in Germany and in Belgium. And we've heard about the melting of the ice. But when you stand next to a field and you watch as thousands and thousands of icebergs literally are getting washed very quickly out to sea. And then when you go up onto the ice sheet and everywhere you see these, what we call supraglacial lakes. So these are meltwater lakes on top of the ice sheet. glacial lakes. So these are meltwater lakes on top of the ice sheet. And what this does is that the water drills through the ice, it finds cracks, it goes all the way down to the bottom of the ice

sheet of the bedrock, making this ice sheet more and more unstable. And this year, shortly before I started the swim, was the first time in recorded history that scientists recorded rain on the highest point in Greenland. And so you put all these things together, all these events which are happening all over the world and wildfires down in Australia and the bleaching of the coral reefs, you put them all together and it tells us a pattern about what is happening. And it shows us what will happen unless we get a grip of this situation. Just to make it really clear, every summer there is some melting of the ice sheet, right?

Just like wildfires are not uncommon or the King tide event we even saw here in Malibu, which took half the beach away. I mean, the beach where we are often in, where I do a lot of swimming is now half the size of I've ever seen it before. I mean, you were just there in Zuma. And how do you, like for people who aren't as familiar,

how do you parse what's normal and what's become augmented or extreme? Or is that just not something that's even worth discussing now? When you talk about the rain on Greenland, that's one thing, it's never happened before. But how do you explain to people what's happening is just a bigger version of the natural cycle, and therefore it's dangerous? Yes, so you're absolutely right. For time immemorial,

glaciers have carved icebergs and icebergs have gone out to sea, but it's the speed and the scale of the crisis, of the climate crisis, which is taking scientists by surprise. And just to give you a practical example, so we've been talking about ice, which is on land. Let me give you another example about ice, which is in the sea, so sea ice. Back in 2005, I did a swim in the Norwegian part of the Arctic, north of an island called Spitsbergen. And there in summer, the water was three degrees centigrade. I went back there 12 years later, the water wasn't three degrees centigrade. Now it was 10 degrees centigrade. So gone from three, 10 in just 12

years. And the scientists are telling me that is not normal. That is an impact of us simply warming the planet. Lewis, you mentioned that you've been doing these swims for over three decades at this point. I'm curious about the intersection of your interest in environmentalism with your swimming, like which came first and how do they inform each other? Swimming came first, swimming came first.

So I had my first proper swimming lesson very late in life when I was 17. I grew up initially in Britain, but then I moved out to Cape Town. And for those of your listeners who've been to Cape Town, it's just an incredible place because on the one side, you've got the Indian Ocean and the other side, you've got the Atlantic Ocean. And my high school history class looked out over the Atlantic Ocean and in the distance,

if I put my head out the window, I could see Robben Island. And I don't even know where the idea came from, but I just wanted to swim to this island. This was 1987. This was a time when Nelson Mandela and many people were imprisoned in South Africa. Anyway, I got permission to do this swim and I barely made it. But afterwards, every single year, I've just tried to do another swim. It really grabbed me. I loved swimming so much. And so every year I've done a bigger, harder, tougher, and inevitably colder swim.

And then there was a time in the early 2000s where I began to notice how the oceans were really changing. So whether it be what was happening in the Arctic with the sea ice, or just seeing less fish in the world, or plastic all over our beaches. And then there came a time when I realized I had to stand up and talk about what I was seeing in the world's oceans. And so tying the power of your swimming capabilities to activism has become like your advocacy and your passion.

What is your sense of impact with all of this? Like, are you encouraged by the results of, you know, getting out there and doing things that, you know, draw a lot of attention and interest in what you're doing? Like, how do we translate the inspiration that we can garner from your epic swims into real change? It's really hard to measure the impact.

I mean, somebody may look at my swim and hopefully be inspired to protect the environment in whichever area they operate in. So it's very, very hard to measure it. It's not like, let's say, selling shoes. You know, if you sell shoes, you know how many you've sold at the end of each month and the end of each year,

and you know when you're being successful. What I've concentrated on the last couple of years is creating what we call marine protected areas. And marine protected areas are like national parks, but they're in the sea. They prevent overfishing in these areas. And the big success came a few years ago, 2016, when I worked with John Kerry and a number of other people to help create a very, very big marine protected area down in Antarctica. So that marine protected area is the size of Britain, France, Germany, Italy, all put together.

It's the biggest protected area in the size of Britain, France, Germany, Italy, all put together. It's the biggest protected area in the world. And you would have thought I'd be really happy about this, but I'm not. We're now in a race against time. We're trying to create another three big marine protected areas around Antarctica. And we're also working to try and get 30% of the world's oceans now protected by 2030. I think really interesting, some of the world's oceans now protected by 2030. I think really interesting, some of the stuff that you've done, including like, I guess the last one before this,

you were actually swimming in a melting glacier. Like you found a riverine glacial melt in Antarctica and you actually got inside a glacier and swam, I guess, a kilometer inside this glacial river. And that was an incredible moment as well. And so you've found these really interesting places to go. But something that people might not know of is your partnership with Slava Fedosov, the hockey star in Russia. And I wanted to bring that up just because, especially in America, we have this crazy kind of black and white Russia versus the United States

thing that's been going on my entire life. But really, there's some really great environmentalists on both sides. Can you explain your partnership with him and how he was involved in Antarctica and just in general, how he's an ally in climate? Yes. Slava is a very special person. And for your listeners who don't know him, he used to be the captain of the former Soviet ice hockey team. And then he was the first Russian to come over and play professional ice hockey in the United States of America. The way I got to meet him was I was trying to get this area down in Antarctica protected called the Ross Sea.

And under international law, 25 countries had to agree it. And one of those was Russia. Another of those was China. And all the countries agreed it except Russia and China. And no matter how many times, it took 17 years that diplomats were going backwards and forwards trying to get these last two countries to agree it. And they weren't able to agree it. It was President Obama's last term, and Obama was very passionate about creating marine protected areas.

He sent John Kerry through to Beijing, and John was able to get the Chinese to agree it. But the last hurdle was obviously the Russians. And I just, it sounds crazy. I had this belief that if I could just go down there and do a swim in this place and show the beauty of it and show how magnificent it is and film the humpback whales and film the emperor penguins and all these other magnificent animals, this is their home. We need to protect it. This place was on the edge of being seriously overfished. If I could do that and I could go to Russia and meet with Russia's leadership,

I hope that I could persuade them that we must protect this last great wilderness. But, you know, I'm half British and half South African. I had no friends in Russia, but somebody introduced me to Slava Fetisov. And I'll never forget what he said. He said, you know, Lewis, I'm a defenseman. And the world needs more defenders and protectors.

Do your swim, come here, and I'll introduce you to who you need to meet. So I went down there. I did the swim. I then immediately got on a plane and I flew from Cape Town through to Moscow, just not knowing what to expect. And I arrived there and there was Slava. Slava Fetisov in Russia is the biggest sporting name. Still, he's just turned 60, 61. He's still a huge name. They're very, very influential. And he's a senator. And he took me literally from minister to minister to minister to the security minister to the closest advisors to President Putin. And over a period of two years, I shuttled backwards and forwards to Washington. And then that day when Russia signed the deal, so the last country of the 25 countries to agree it to the happiest day of both of our lives.

Because we realized that we need to talk to each other. We need to work together. These global problems cannot be solved just by America or just by Britain. You know, Russia is a country and it operates in 11 time zones. You go from Vladivostok all the way to St. Petersburg, it's 11 time zones.

It owns half the Arctic. It's got huge natural resources. You think of China, what a massive country China is. In India, we cannot solve these big global problems, whether it be climate change, overfishing, pollution, any of these, without all these countries working together. And that's why these environmental diplomats are so important, because they're able to work together

and listen to the dialogue of the other side. Yeah, and with that, we're on the cusp of COP26 in Glasgow. I think you're attending that. What is your hope for what may transpire there? Yeah, well, my hope for what may transpire there? Yeah. Well, my hope for COP26 is that finally we realize that we're in the last chance, that we really are. So what I saw in Greenland in terms of the melting was so worrying, very, very, very worrying. And I want to bring my message about what I've seen there and bring it to Glasgow.

You know, ice is essential for life on Earth. Because what ice does, it keeps our planet within a temperature range in which we can live. And I always say to politicians, no ice, no life. If we allow the polar regions to melt and we allow the glaciers and the Himalayas to melt, we will not be able to survive. Ice is as important as the air we breathe. And I'll go there with a message. Please, we cannot have these commitments.

I cringe whenever I hear a world leader make a commitment for 2050 and 2060, which a lot of them are making now. There's no political leader or business leader in the world that won't make a commitment for 2050, 2060. And we know perfectly well they won't be around there to deliver on it. We need shorter commitments, but not only the commitment, we now need action. The time for talking, talking is important, getting consensus is important, but the time for action is right now. Yeah, it seems that the gravamen of the conversation

is around slowing this process down. We had Paul Hawken on the show the other week and he said, nobody gets up in the morning excited about mitigation, right? We need to be talking about drawdown, like reversing this. We need to invest in these regenerative solutions. And yet from a political perspective, that becomes problematic.

And the safest route is always to talk about this mitigation idea or how we can reduce these emissions as opposed to really, in my opinion, over-invest in the solutions that will be most impactful in terms of drawdown and this idea of regeneration? Well, the interesting thing is if we miss the time now, so if we allow, just to put this in perspective, we're going into what's called UN COP26.

So COP26 means there have been 26 of these conferences. They've lasted 27 years, okay? So a large portion of the world's population were not alive when we started these negotiations to try and put a halt to the climate crisis. And if we miss this opportunity, and if it's just a talking shop, then no amount of political goodwill, no amount of technology, which you talk about, no amount of investment is going to be able to solve this crisis because you pass, as a scientist say, certain tipping points. And there are a number of scientists who believe we have already passed some tipping points in terms of the Greenland ice sheet. If the whole

Greenland ice sheet were to melt, that's a seven meter sea level rise. That impacts everybody. Yeah, we've seen the floods, like you said, in Europe, we saw floods in New York City, wasn't even a hurricane, and it caused the catastrophic floods, killed dozens of people. We've seen these climate events happen.

In Greenland, originally you were thinking of a bigger swim, of swimming the entire length of what has receded, a part of the ice sheet that's already melted, correct? What's that number again? Like since from beginning of the cops from 27 years ago? Yeah, so initially, you know, I've always got an atlas opening in my office and I'm always looking at and thinking to myself, where can I do a swim here? That's going to highlight an issue, be it pollution, be it climate change, be it overfishing,

where can I do a swim? And you know, creativity is, is not an aha moment. It's an adieu moment. It means, ah, why did I not see this great swim? And so there was a moment when I thought, wow, why don't I go to Greenland and do a swim in a Lula set and start where the glacier was 27 years ago and swim all the way to where it is today. That was a bit naive of me because there's so much ice pouring down. It's literally like a wall of ice, so much ice now coming down

that that swim wouldn't have been possible. So as soon as I got there, I realized I had to swim across it rather than do something like that, which would have been, frankly, would have been a lot easier to tell as a media story. You know, this is where the glacier was 27 years ago, and there it is all the way up there now. Yeah. It's several kilometers, right? Or several miles? Oh, well, since a hundred years ago ago it's gone over 60 kilometers wow so it's uh it's receded an awful lot and as i said at the moment now it's receding um so it's moving at a speed of 40 meters per day in summer it's truly astonishing that's crazy yeah and you know the other thing that you notice when you're up right next to the glacier as it's carving is just how much water there is.

There are waterfalls coming on the side, so you've got water coming from the side. You've got water coming underneath, as I talked about, those lakes on the top. You've got water draining through and coming out. It is a very, very dynamic situation there right now. And remember, this is just one glacier on the west coast of Greenland. But this is happening in many glaciers around the world, in the Arctic, in the Antarctic, and obviously in the mountainous regions. And the mountainous regions are another scenario altogether. And the reason for that is because those glaciers provide a constant water supply. So you think about the glaciers in the Himalayas, they provide water to India,

to China, to Bangladesh, to Burma, to Pakistan. People need water. Water is essential for life on earth. And as those glaciers retreat, as they melt away, there goes that water supply. So those areas then become a cocktail for conflict. People need to move to water. You had mentioned that the Greenland swim was among, if not the hardest swim that you had done. Walk us through the experience of getting in that water. I guess it was around zero Celsius, correct? And how you kind of trained and prepared yourself

to endure that and what it actually felt like when you were in that frigid cold. Rich, the water is so cold. So it ranged between zero and three degrees. And swimming in cold water is the only sport in the whole world that the more experience you have, the harder it becomes. And the reason for that is, so I don't know, let's just say you're playing tennis. The more balls you hit, the easier it becomes. Well, it should. Okay. With cold water

swimming, the more you do, the harder it becomes. And that is because when you've been really, really, really cold, you never forget it. It's deep down in your bones. And then so every single subsequent swim you're going to do, you have to forget about what happened there. I had to forget about that swim in 2007 when I swam across the North Pole. I had to forget the panic when I was swimming down in the Ross Sea or gasping for air in a glacial lake on Mount Everest. You've got to forget it and you've got to be ready for the new swim. So the training package was a long package. I then did the acclimatization in Iceland and then you arrive in Greenland. And now I'm going to get into the

water. And as I slowly lower myself down that ladder, it's just incredibly cold. And early in the morning, I've taken a temperature capsule. And what that does is it tells my doctor on the boat exactly what's happening inside me real time. And the astonishing thing happens when I lower myself into really cold water, actually my core body temperature rises. So it rises from normal core body temperature, which is about 37 up to 38. And then I normally swam for about 10 minutes. And during that time, my core body temperature maintained the same level and on some occasions even increased. But then when I get out and the cold blood in my arms and legs returns to my core, then my core body temperature drops.

And so then it's quickly into a sleeping bag and then a hot water, three hot water bottles, hot chocolate. And it would take me between two and two and a half hours to rewarm after each of those swims. And I was doing it twice a day. So after I'd finished my first swim, I'd recovered, I'd eaten a bit of lunch, then back in again for the second session. It was unrelenting and it was brutal. So 10 minute swims, it takes two hours plus to warm up from a 10 minute swim. Correct. Yeah. And in the old days, I just used to dive in. I used to dive in. I used to swim as fast and as quick as I could, get out, get into a hot shower. We tried that in some of the training. That is the worst possible thing you could do. The science now is quite clear. You need to lower yourself. You need to be able to control your breathing, not have what they call the cold

shock response. And then once you're ready, get going and then swim as fast and as hard as you can. Swimming is also the only sport in the world which operates on three axes. So your head moves left to right, your arms move around and around, your legs move up and down. And if any one of those is not in sync, you're going to be fighting the sea. Well, I can tell you something, when you jump into zero degree water, things are not necessarily in sync. You're fighting when you're in that type of water. It's a struggle. It's a, you're constantly thinking about the pain. And on the side of the boat, I've got my team counting me. They're giving me my stroke counts.

If I'm going at 30 strokes a minute, they're happy. If I go up to 34, they ask me to slow down. If I'm down at 25, they say, if you don't speed up, you're going to be out very, very soon. So it's a constant communication with my team to be able to get me through each of these swims. I mean, given that no matter how much you do it, it never gets easier,

there's nothing that you really truly can do to acclimatize yourself or normalize the experience. Why even train ahead of time to get ready? Is that just to figure out how to communicate with your team and to get all the kind of data points so that they can ensure that you're safe? Or what was your thinking with all of those swims leading up to Greenland?

No, no, actually the acclimatization is absolutely essential. If I didn't do that, no, I don't think I'd be able to survive. The water is so extreme. Water is also a fascinating substance, Rich. So obviously between zero and 100, it's a liquid. Above 100, it changes.

It becomes a gas. Below zero, it changes from a liquid to a solid. So there's actually a tipping point at which everything changes. And it's the same inside you. So when you're swimming in water around zero, and sometimes I've done swims below zero degrees centigrade. So when I swam down to the Ross Sea, and when I swam at the North Pole,

the water was minus 1.7. So saltwater gets even colder. And when you're in that water, it is, you are on, you're definitely, you're on the edge of life and death. No question about that. So having done the preparation, having done some of the acclimatization,

it helped hugely. But there's only so much you can do. You're not going to be able to acclimatize and make it feel comfortable swimming in the Arctic day after day. And at the end of the swim, so it was 14 days of swimming, I remember on the last day,

I was just about to lower myself down the ladder. And I'm just wearing swimming trunks, right? My team are in three or four layers of clothing. And I looked at them and I was really happy because this was the final swim and I wouldn't have to wake up in the morning and get back in amongst the icebergs, but all of them were shivering.

So everybody on the boat was cold. And I realized that, you know, for 14 days I had been absolutely frozen. Wow. You literally had ice water in your veins. Yeah. The uniform is obviously the open water swimming uniform that you've kept true to, even though you could have done these extreme events and nobody, or these extreme swims, and nobody would have bat an eye if you wore even a three mil wetsuit or a seven mil wetsuit, but you're keeping to the marathon swim. You're a member of the Hall of Fame of marathon swimming.

You're keeping to the marathon swimming, just a Speedo swim cap and goggles, right? Sure. And I mean, it's for a few reasons. So clearly I'm trying to get attention to these areas and to the issues of the climate crisis. And you know perfectly well that if you swim across the North Pole in a pair of Speedos, a cap and goggles, the world's media are going to follow you. You know, as I was arriving at the North Pole, I remember I had a satellite phone on the boat. You know, there was Jay Leno was calling me, you know, lots of big names were calling me. I realized that the world's eyes were on me.

This was the first time in human history that the North Pole had properly unfrozen. If I was able to do a swim there, it would carry a very, very powerful message. So that's one reason why I wear just a pair of Speedos. But the other one is more fundamental. And that is the decisions which world leaders have to make now are hard, they are complex, and they require courage. Because with that, we're asking them to make decisions now now and the benefits will be felt in a few years' time. And I'm urging world leaders to be courageous because if we don't do that, we're going to be in an incredibly difficult situation in a few years' time.

And if I'm asking for them to be courageous, I also felt that I should be courageous. And we felt that swimming in a dry suit or a wetsuit wouldn't send the right message. What about a swim mask? Have you considered a swim mask? There's a whole inside joke about this. I'm embarrassed to say, what is a swim mask? I could answer for him. Yeah. See what I'm saying, Adam? Adam goes out into the ocean and he refuses to wear goggles. He wears a swim mask. I keep giving him shit about it. I wear a very low profile mask. I don't understand. Please just don a pair to wear goggles. He wears a swim mask. I wear a very low profile mask.

I don't understand. Like, please. It's like your neighbor, your neighbor, the octopus teacher guy. He, I don't know how close of a neighbor's you are.

Yeah. Like a diving mask. Yes. Okay. So you got much. Yeah. He doesn't even know what it is. So you've got much more visibility.

I mean, I just wear these things just, I don't know why. Just it's what I've always worn. Well, you've been very generous with your time, but I can't let you go as we kind of wrap this up without asking you if you have any advice for listeners or viewers who are inspired

by what you've done, who feel compelled to participate in positive, meaningful change? What is your best suggestions in terms of how people can get more involved in climate change issues? What is the single best thing that they can do to help? A few things, please. I can't drill it down to one, but we need to become environmentally literate. We really do. We need to understand the issues. And wherever I go in the world, even speaking to heads of state or business leaders, it becomes quite clear to me that they don't understand all the environmental issues. We need to become on top of them,

like we have with, for example, pandemics in the last year, year and a half. I think the second thing is we are way past the time when we can be quiet on this issue. This is a defining issue of our lifetime. And the third thing is what can ordinary people do? Every single decision which we make, every single purchase which we make on a daily basis is a decision about our future. It's a decision about our children and the whole of the animal kingdom. And whether that be the clothes we wear, the food we eat, how we get to school, how we get to work, how we invest any money which we may have, spare money which we may have, every single one of those decisions is a decision about our future.

And I just ask everybody to be really cognizant on a daily basis of those decisions. Because if we always choose the environmentally friendly decision or choice, then multiplied over 7.9 billion people, which is the world's population, that makes a really big difference. Yes, it really is up to us. Excellent. Yeah. Yeah. And being self-empowered in this process. And that's what's so good about us being able to come together and talk about the environmental issues and the climate over and over again,

as we, you know, to build the environmental literacy. So, you know, it's, you're so eloquent always, Lewis, and you're an incredible diplomat for the oceans. It's really a pleasure to speak with you. I so wanted to be one of those people huddled up and shivering on the boat while you had to get in the water. But this is the next best thing. I wouldn't have allowed you. You'd have had to come in here.

I would have been in there. Hey, you said you're done with ice swimming. You said that on your Instagram, that you think you're done. You think you're retired. How sure are you about that? Very. But not 100%. Yeah, not 100%.

But as I say, I've been doing this for 15 years. And in some cases, I've literally felt like a voice in the wilderness, actually in the wilderness. And I love swimming. I want to swim until the last day of my life. You know, when I'm swimming, the world feels perfect. I love at the end of the day running down into the ocean and running down the beach and taking off my clothes and jumping in the sea and those first 10, 20 strokes is heaven.

And I'll continue to swim. But swimming in the polar regions, which is so incredibly dangerous and which is so all-consuming, I think it's going to be a new generation that I hope will take up the baton and be a voice for the polar regions and how important they are.

I'll keep on swimming. I'll be swimming in some of the warmer parts of the world. I'll still be talking about overfishing, climate change, plastic pollution, which is so endemic all over the world. I'll keep on swimming until my last day. Well, the world is certainly better with you swimming in it. As Adam said, you are a phenomenal champion of our precious waterways.

And my only regret in this experience today is that we couldn't do it in person. So if you find yourself in Los Angeles, open invite to come to the studio and we'll go deep and long. And if I find myself in Cape town or wherever else you may be, I would love to meet you in person and continue the conversation. But appreciate you tuning in today, Lewis, and would love to meet you in person and continue the conversation,

but appreciate you tuning in today, Lewis, and best of luck to you. Thank you both so much. It's been a real honor. Thank you. Coming back for more, but first. Adam, what did you think? You know, I always love talking to Lewis.

He is, you know, he brings it every time. I always learn something from him. Yeah, what a beautiful human. I think we can all learn quite a bit from his example. And again, this is a guy who's been doing it for 30 years and to, you know, maintain that level of not only enthusiasm, but integrity and commitment to communicating his perspective.

You would think that someone who's been at it for that long would become jaded and maybe deep down he is, but the manner in which he carries himself as this statesman diplomat, I think is really powerful. The last 18 years in polar regions, like, I mean, and I love what he said about, he opens up the Atlas to like kind of look for like the next project.

And you know, he's doing that already. Right, well, there was a map behind him on the wall the whole time. I don't know if you saw that. And he had that polar bear statue. Yeah, he did. But I love what he said about environmental literacy, building environmental literacy

and how that's kind of a responsibility we should all take on. And so kudos to you for doing that, for doing that for so long in relation to climate with Paul Hawken and then even stuff that we do when it becomes kind of part of the new cycle, even when it's not, we often bring it up. But then also when it comes to plant-based,

I mean, that's a big driver in your conversation, usually around plant-based eating. Cause you know, he spoke to individual choice as a major thing people can do. Yeah, I think the environmental literacy piece is huge, but the caveat that I would offer on that topic is the fact that literacy without action is feckless. And what I mean by that is,

when I'm thinking about that, I'm reminded of something that Paul Hawkins said, which is that there's no difference between someone who is incredibly climate literate and somebody who is a climate change denier if they're not actually doing anything. Yeah, right. Right, so the important thing is finding a manner

in which you can plug into the solution and that thing being the thing that excites you, which again, hearkens back to what Paul Hawken had to say, like find the thing that gets you excited in the morning. There's so many things, pick up Paul's book, "'Regeneration,' which is rife with all manner of solutions. Find the thing that excites you a little bit and determine a manner in which you can participate in that."

And I think a way to do that is even if you don't have his new book, you can go to Paul's website, regeneration.org, and he's got a function on there called Nexus. And if you click that, I think it's regeneration.org slash Nexus, if you wanna go direct. And that's a way to learn more about the various ways in which you can participate.

But yeah, it begins with literacy, but literacy must be followed up with the action. Yeah, I mean, and I think Paul Hawken and Lewis Pugh, they're kind of two sides of the same coin, right? Like one is in the diplomat, one is kind of doing grassroots education work, and the other one is doing kind of red alert exploration, activism and diplomacy at the highest levels.

Yeah, and they've both been doing it for decades. Yeah, I mean, amazing to have those guys. Yeah, all right, so in switching gears right now, we're gonna try another thing that's a little bit new, rather than taking something from the news cycle to dive deep into, I wanted to telescope out a little bit because I've been thinking a lot about I wanted to telescope out a little bit because I've been thinking a lot about this podcast,

what I wanna say with it and what I want it to be about in general, especially since I'm coming up on the ninth anniversary of doing this. This is the 631st episode. And if you think about that in two hour chunks, that's what, over 1200 hours of talking. So what are we doing here? I mean, people always ask me, what have you learned?

How does all the information get processed in your head? What are the biggest takeaways? And like I said, I have been spending a little bit more time devoted to thinking about that because I've always felt like I didn't really have a very good answer. And this process of self-inquiry really was catalyzed or prompted by dint of my visit to Minneapolis this past spring.

And I've told this story prior, but just to briefly recap, when Black Lives Matter was erupting and Derek Chauvin was on trial for murder of George Floyd and Minneapolis was on the precipice of burning. It was a moment in time in which everybody had opinions about what was right, what was wrong, what was happening. And I certainly did, but we made this choice as a team

to actually visit, like go to the place and rather than form our takes based on other people's opinions or our siloed newsfeeds to instead like go there and create a perspective that was informed by direct experience rather than the news cycle. And towards that end to engage with community leaders from people on the front lines,

all the way to the actual mayor. And that was really fueled by this sense of curiosity to engage in conversation and premised upon this idea that is fundamental to the podcast here, which is that conversation matters. Like it really does matter. And the most impactful exchange that I had over the course of that trip wasn't with the mayor,

it wasn't with the city councilman or any of the civic leaders that we sat down with, but instead was with this average citizen, this neighborhood watch volunteer in George Floyd Square, who in the course of conversation on the street and this person like wondering who I was and curious about my motives for being in George Floyd Square asked me this question

that turns out was quite profound and not what I was expecting, which was, what does your podcast do? He literally said, what does your podcast do? And it seems kind of funny. Like usually it would be like, what is your podcast? Or what do you talk about? Or tell me about it.

But something about that phraseology, like what does your podcast do? Really forced me to think about an answer because I didn't have an answer in the moment. And I still struggle with trying to answer that question. But I think that I'm starting to arrive at some sense of what that answer or those answers are. And I think in the most general sense,

the podcast is like this signal for change. It's a signal for the positive change that I've experienced in this sense that like whatever I've experienced is available to other people like this hopefulness and the positive change that I believe we're all capable of manifesting as individuals, as citizens, as a global collective. And thinking about that makes me think about the audience

and this idea of putting that question on yourselves, like who are all of you? Like, what does your work do? What does your curiosity do? What does your life do? Like, what do you do? And I'm not talking about your job. I'm talking about like you, like, what are you doing? Like, can you answer that question in your own life?

Like, Adam, what are you doing? Like, what are you doing? Like, can you answer that question in your own life? Like, Adam, what are you doing? Like, what are you doing? Not much. Right? Like, what is the thing, man? Like, what are you up to in the broadest sense? Like, listen, man, you're taking up a lot of oxygen. What are you doing with it?

Exactly. I know. And it's kind of like midlife crisis inspiring stuff that you're getting at. It is sort of, yeah. Like we're treading into that territory because you can overthink your life. And there's something to be said for, you know, doing what's on your plate,

like doing what's in front of you. Because for me, I feel like best in my life when I'm kind of on a mission or whatever, but that doesn't mean that's what I should be doing or am doing. It's just a way to engage your mind in a way. I don't know. I mean, a lot of people, the yogis would say,

what you're doing is you're here to learn and grow as a human being. Like that is the deal. But of course, we also have all these crazy tragedies kind of seemingly unfolding in real time all around us. And so is that enough to like, to navel gaze? Probably not. So, you know, it's a good question.

I mean, if you ask me, what am I doing when it comes to my work? The best, I've had three times where I feel like there was meaning, like what I'm doing, like affects the world in a positive way. Not during the activism, four things, not necessarily through activism. One was planting trees, very simple, trees matter.

We need more trees. I did that for a living for three years. The other was when I was doing Lonely Planet stuff, I hyped up this small roadside pad Thai stand that like ended up becoming this huge thing as Lonely Planet drives so much traffic and they've made a lot of money and put their kids in better schools and that's great.

The third thing is the work with David Goggins. And the fourth thing is this work with you. And that's where those are tangible feedback I'm getting from the world or obvious like with trees. So, like other than that, on a daily basis, what does your life do? I don't know, I take a much more Zen Taoist approach and I try not to think about it.

Yeah, well, it's tough. You know, it's so esoteric. I mean, but I think there is, and I'm somebody who hasn't, you know, likewise who hasn't been super directed in that. But I think there is something to be said for indulging in that thought experiment. Yeah.

Because whatever comes up will allow you to be a little bit more directed in terms of where you focus your attention. And, you know, if you were to ask me even, you know, not that long ago, like, what is your podcast? It's like, I have conversations with people that interest me and that's kind of it.

I never really probed it any more deeply than that. But anniversaries, middle age, or having been somebody who's been doing this for nine years, like you start to think like, well, what are we actually doing here? Why am I spending so much time on this? Like maybe I should be a little bit more thoughtful and intentional about how I'm approaching this work

and trying to find ways to, you know, hopefully make it more meaningful for the audience rather than just indulgent. And so in that process of rumination, I've arrived at a collection of things, right now it's six things, and that's a list that may grow longer, a list I'm iterating on,

and that I'm kind of using as the basis for writing this. The prompt was really like, I'm being asked to go out and do more public speaking. And I have a keynote that I've delivered over the years. And it's really about like my journey. It's about me. It's about my story. It's about personal transformation and addiction

and plant-based nutrition and all of that and the athletic accomplishments. But that feels like expired on some level. Like I understand it has value and people enjoy hearing that story and it is part of who I am, but I've done all of this other work since then that has not been part of how I communicate

with audiences on stage. And I really wanted to figure out how to make sense of the podcast in terms of what can be conveyed in a keynote type situation. So I've been actively engaged in trying to extract principles that I've learned over the years, doing the podcast that might be helpful to audiences

and making it relevant. So that's kind of what's motivated me to think about all this kind of stuff. And I thought it would be cool on roll on to drip these ideas out over the upcoming months, like doing one at a time. So the one that I wanna talk about today, the focus of this is curiosity.

Curiosity being a principle that has driven my enthusiasm for doing the podcast in the first place and something that I think is part and parcel of every interesting person that I've ever sat across over the years. And the principle really is that life expands in lockstep with the extent to which you invest in your own personal curiosity.

Meaning that curiosity isn't this God-given disposition. Oh, he's curious, she isn't. It's not a personality trait. It's more like meditation or training or education. It's a practice, it's a habit. It's something that is abundant and something that grows in proportion to your commitment to cultivating it.

And when you exercise it, in my experience, and in observing other people who invest in curiosity, I have noticed that it will dramatically expand the aperture of your life experience by putting you in much closer contact with new people, new ideas, new opportunities, adventures, practices, relationships that hold the potential to irrevocably and positively alter the trajectory

of your life. So I think what happens is people confuse passion with curiosity. You know, people ask me all the time, like, how do I figure out what my passion is? Or I need to be living a life of passion. You hear that all the time, like pursue your life of passion. But, and I think a lot of people are not connected

to their passion and it makes them feel bad about themselves. Like all these people are out here pursuing their passion. Like I don't even know what my passion is. You kind of feel lousy or guilty. Like I should know and I don't. Or that your job is supposed to be connected to it. And I understand that.

Like I'm very empathetic to that. And I've been that person for many, many years. And the way out of that is to forget about all of that. And instead think of it in terms of curiosity, ask yourself, what is it that you're curious about? And it doesn't have to be any big deal. It could be some video you saw on YouTube that piqued your interest and promoted,

prompted you to like look more deeply into something. So I think it's about awareness and presence of mind to notice your curiosity as it naturally percolates up and then having the wherewithal to see that and say, oh, there's a little spark of curiosity. Maybe I should recognize that and honor that by going a little bit more deeply. And I think developing that habit,

just like a muscle that you build will lead you to places you perhaps can't really predict right now. I like that idea. I mean, like the idea, cause I think for most people, curiosity is kind of like part of the firmware. You know what I mean?

It's like in there, but you don't really call it out as an individual thing. I mean, what you're doing is you're saying, we all have that quality somewhere in us. Not everybody is exercised like you said, but to even recognize it as a quality that you have intrinsically in itself does a lot, right?

It allows you to focus on, you know, just asking yourself the question, the power that comes with that, that comes out of what am I curious about versus just kind of following your curiosity unconsciously. You're saying, make it a conscious choice, not an unconscious thing. I do think smartphones can get in the way of it,

because then you're fed content, Yeah. Stuff pops up for you. Yes, curiosity might take you left, swiping left or right. That's not what you're talking about. You're talking about a deeper inquiry within yourself. I think that this media saturated, content saturated environment we all live in kind of is anathema to what you're talking about. So there would be, you know, turning off one to kind of turning anathema to what you're talking about. So there would be, you know,

turning off one to kind of turning on the other aspect to this, I think. I think that's where curiosity starts to tiptoe into imagination. And they're certainly, you know, kindred, but they're different things. I think what you're talking about is really about imagination

and you need that open, quiet space to indulge that. I think curiosity is about directing the imagination. And I think the smartphone can be a tool. It's just about your relationship to the smart, like, okay, I'm curious about this. The smartphone is a vehicle for learning more about a particular thing. It's just a question of whether you're in command of it

or whether it's in command of you and recognizing what that relationship looks like. And I just think that, you know, when people say like, I don't know what my passion is, it's like, I can't, I don't know how to help that person. I can't tell you what your passion is, but I do know that you can't find your passion or your purpose or find meaning or fulfillment in life

without consistently applying curiosity. And that just begins with those questions that you're asking yourself, what are you curious about? And I think curiosity is something that you're correct is innate within all of us, but it needs to be called out consciously. It needs to be developed. It needs to be nurtured and cherished.

And it begets itself. Like the more you invest in it, the more curiosity you have. Well, look at Davey's running journey, right? Yeah, he's curious about what he can do and look what he's doing. And that opens up more questions. Wait, well, if I can do a half marathon on 133,

how fast can I run it? Right. But behind it all, what's really going on is if I train for a half marathon, then I can give my excuse to buy a bunch of running, cool running shoes. If I train for a marathon, then I can continue, I can double down.

His sneaker, his sneaker Jones. It's the hype beast addiction rearing its head, shrouded in this healthy pursuit of marathon glory. Sneaker. I jest, but it's true, you know, it's true. And I think, yeah, it's this idea of not needing to know the destination. It's just about respecting the spark and following it.

And part of the fun or the allure is not knowing all the answers or what the next step is and just opening yourself up to possibilities. Where do you think this like connects to beginner's mind? Cause I always think people who stay young are the ones that wanna learn another language or do something different or like start square one in some skill.

I mean, curiosity is a part of that, right? Of course, I mean, a perfect example would be Mary Kane doing the bike leg on the marathon or the Malibu Triathlon this past weekend. Like she's not an experience. She's always, Alexi was explaining this really well, saying that Mary is somebody who has always been the best and stays with the thing that she's best at.

Like she's an incredible runner, right? And the cycling piece has been an opportunity for the first time in a very long time for this person to have that, to like engage the beginner's mind, to be a beginner. And what I saw was somebody who was really like joyful in that process when you let go of like, I need to know like what are people thinking or any,

like let go of all of that and just allow yourself to like go on this exploration and learn something new to like have fun. You know, she didn't even have like a proper cycling kit. Like she's an elite athlete, didn't even have like a proper cycling kit. It didn't matter. It was about like, we're having fun.

I don't know what I'm doing. Like I got a flat and I had to get the Tokyo gold medalist to fix my bike before I could even ride it. And like, that's beautiful. Yeah. Right. There's like a, there's a joy, a release in the curiosity, right? When you start to pursue it.

Yeah. So the message is to really, you know, bring that into your conscious awareness, this idea of curiosity and to really be conscious of discontinuing that proclivity or predisposition that so many of us have to build that wall of security and comfort around yourself, right? To rediscover the childlike mind of the inquisitor, to ask yourself what's left to discover

and to really invest in discovering things that you want to know, because it's curiosity that really holds the answer. I thought it killed the cat. Yeah, I don't know about that. Yeah, I don't know. Who came up with that? Some cat hater. Curious George thing too.

A dog person. Curiosity killed the cat. A dog person killed the cat. Like what a terrible message to be put into some children's young person's thing. Like shaming people for their curiosity. Well, it was more like probably to keep people safe. Like don't go out there, don't go in here.

Curiosity killed the cat. That's a horrible thing to say. It is horrible. Don't be curious. Be very afraid. It's like we were watching Romeo and Juliet, the Baz Luhrmann version. And I was just thinking that I could make a living

on TikTok just like if I could just give certain characters some advice at crucial moments, like all the best literature would be gone, but these characters would survive. Give me an example. Well, like for instance, Juliet, you've only gone out with him twice. I mean, both in the same night.

You meet him at the fish tank in the movie, but in the play, there was no fish tank, but you meet him at the party and then you have your moment. And then he comes later to your balcony. So I'm gonna give you two dates. It's probably one day, but I'll give you two dates. And then the next day, like you meet up with him again, only for the second time or third time.

And you're supposed to marry the guy. Right. Like that's bad. That's not good parenting. I think this, what I'm hearing here is curiosity leading you to building a viral TikTok account of you breaking down great literature. And that's how bad the choices are.

And talking sense. Poor choices. Like I know we all have decided that Romeo and Juliet is a work of, is a masterwork of genius, but let's like really break this down and analyze like how prudent these choices really are. Really bad choices. Relationship advice in Shakespeare.

Like I'm curious, I have this idea for Roland, I've been afraid to pitch you, but what if we just sat around and talked about our deepest regrets? I thought that's what the show was already about. No, I have this idea though for my Twitter because the Twitter is just kind of out there. It's like fumbling.

I'm curious, I would like the listeners to weigh in. Should I turn it in just to a reading Twitter account? Like what I've read five days a week, that's it. Something I've read, or should I just leave it as this grab bag of nothing? I don't know. I think you should try new things. Try new things? I think you should try it out.

Yeah. All right. Why not? That or sport, like some sporting news thing. What should it be? No, don't do that. All right. Curiosity killed the cat. Yeah, I could do that.

I think it should just be, I think it should be hot takes on Shakespeare. Hot takes on poor choices in our canon of great literature. Is that what you meant by your curiosity? Did I screw it up? Listen, man, wherever your curiosity takes you. It took us to- Curiosity empowers the cat.

We volunteered at a marine rescue, wildlife rescue up the street from you. And we fed and helped clean up after beach sea lions. And we did all that kind of stuff. And that was based on just pure curiosity. Like there's no, like we volunteered for a whole season doing that. Was one of the best experiences I've ever had.

I think you're right. I mean, I think there's a lot to it. It's potent. Yeah, good. Well, there we have it. Curiosity. Curiosity, this is the title of this podcast. Curiosity did not kill the cat.

Not yet. Curiosity expanded the cat's awareness. Curiosity is the cat. There you go. There is no cat. All right, we're devolving. Let's get to listener questions so we can get out of here. Let's do it.

We're going to San Francisco for the first one. Hi, Rich and Adam. This is Hadar from San Francisco. Thank you for the wonderful podcast. I love listening to it on long runs. I'm calling to ask a question about getting into triathlon or multi-sport from the swimming side. I'm a semi-retired marathon swimmer beginning to get into multi-sport. And what I see around me are triathletes who get into the sport as seasoned runners and bikers. And my sense is that swimming is qualitatively different than the two other sports.

And I wanted to ask if you had any advice for me. Thank you. Thank you for the question. Yes and no in terms of difference. I think that you're in a fantastic situation in terms of pivoting to multi-sport. Most multi-sport athletes do not come from a swimming background.

They certainly aren't semi-retired marathon swimmers. So you're leagues ahead of most people when they pivot into the multi-sport arena. Having that swimming background is a huge advantage and fundamental to your success. I think swimmers understand a couple key core things that will serve them as multi-sport athletes. Not the least of which is they understand how to suffer.

If you're a swimmer who's trying to be the best swimmer that you can be, you're no stranger to sensory deprivation, like putting yourself in a position where you're blocking out everything around you and you're connecting with nothing but your breath and your body movements and pushing yourself. So that's something that's very familiar to you at this point, a lot of multi-sport athletes get into it.

They've never really done anything hard. So you have that experience under your belt. You also understand and appreciate the importance of technique, technique being crucial in terms of success as a swimmer and that appreciation to detail and what it takes to become proficient in your stroke will really serve you in terms of the intentionality

that you bring to learning how to properly ride a bike, what your cadence looks like, your running form, all of these things are already built into your DNA and aren't things that you're gonna have to learn. So I think swimmers make for great multi-sport athletes because of their backgrounds. And there's something about brain plasticity that makes it so much harder for somebody later in life

to really understand how to swim well. Like it's just, I don't even know if it's possible. Like once you've reached a certain age threshold, trying to teach stroke technique to older athletes becomes very difficult, but cycling and running, we've all run our whole lives. So we already have background in that. And cycling is very easy to teach

and success in cycling is very much, I mean, I don't wanna be too binary about it, but you can learn how to ride a bike older in life and you can get good at it by dint of saddle time. And the technique will come along the way. So having the swimming piece already locked down makes your transition really smooth, I think. Also because it tends to be a way to get ahead, right?

I mean, like often, like if you're experiencing good at swimming, you're way ahead than some of these people who might then catch you. Sure, but the problem is like swimming, if proportionality wise, like swimming gets such a- Small part. Yeah, it's like none of these races are oriented

around parody between the three sports. No, but- Swimming becomes a footnote. Swim run, it matters a little more. Swim run is different. Triathlon specifically though, the swimming is almost irrelevant. Right, right, right.

Ultraman is the one race where swimming can kind of make a difference, but for the most part- Even then it's front loaded. It's just about like staying within range and then everything else makes up for people that aren't good swimmers. And they allow you to wear wetsuits in terrain

where I think that they should just say no wetsuits for the most part. So it really coddles the non-swimmer. Swim run is different for sure. But I'm excited about this journey. And I think that if there know, if there's anything that you might need to pay attention to that might be new coming from a swimming background

is that you have to give, especially with running, you have to give your joints and your ligaments time to adapt to the load. Swimming, because you're in this suspended environment, it's very easy on your joints and your ligaments. So you can push yourself really hard. You can recover quickly and you don't have to worry until you get into like tendonitis with shoulders

and stuff like that with severe overuse injuries. You don't have to concern yourself with, you know, your knees hurting or any of the kind of stuff that comes with running. So you have to build your volume in running much more slowly and diligently than you would have to do with swimming. So paying attention to that, like your lungs and your heart will acclimate

and become fit much more quickly than your body's infrastructure's ability to adapt to that load. So even if you feel fit and you wanna run longer and you feel like you can, you have to err on the side of caution to prevent those injuries from occurring. So I think exploring that and learning a little bit more

about what that looks like for you will save you time benched from injuries. But I think you'll, if you're like me, you'll develop a love and appreciation for these other disciplines. And it will also renew your love for swimming. Like when it's not just all about swimming and you get to mix it up and have this variety,

then you look forward to your swims rather than dread them like a lot of swimmers do who have been at it for a very long time. Great stuff. All right, should we move on? Tyler from Florida. I have a Florida man for you. Florida man. Question from Florida man. Hey, Rich and Adam. This is Tyler from Florida.

Rich, I just want to thank you first off for allowing listeners like myself to call in and leave voicemails. I know I'm just one of many whose life has been completely altered by who you are, the courage you have to tell your story, and the people you're interviewing along the way, such as Adam. Thanks simply does not come close enough, but truly, thank you, Rich, for all that you do to better this world. So my question is a morality question. I am a 31 soon to be 32 year old. And the moral topic that I am inquiring about today is money. I used to believe that money was somewhat of an evil thing. And I've since shifted to believe that money is simply a tool. And once I amassed enough of this tool, then I can retire from the things I do not want to do, aka my job now, which would then allow me to do things that I want to do, such as work on issues such as food

sovereignty, food security, climate change, and the like. So my question is, and I know the answer is a very nuanced, but would you suggest someone like myself to make as much money as I quickly and ethically can in the next four to five years to then be able to, quote unquote, retire from the system to then devote my time solely on social justice issues that matter to me? Because I simply don't think I have the mental capacity for both at the same time because I've seen it. When I focus on social issues, my job suffers. And when I focus on my job, my impact on social issues suffers. So yeah, if you could help me figure out my life, that would be great. Thanks, Rich. Thanks, Adam. I appreciate the question. I'm not sure I can help you figure out your life, Tyler, but we're gonna give it a shot.

Let's give it a shot. I think that the first thing is understanding, as you astutely pointed out, this is a nuanced thing. So you need to break free of this binary thinking, like it's either or, like my job or social justice or make money or don't make money. Instead, think about money as energy, not a thing and approach it from an abundance mentality.

In other words, not like a lack, like if I do this, then I won't have money. If I do this, then I'll have a lot of money, but I'll save it and then I'll use it for this. I think about it, try to hold onto it a little bit more lightly and in a non-binary sense. And I think it will allow you to broaden your perspective on your current capacity.

I'm not a fan of staying in a situation that is not serving you to accumulate resources so that you can do something later. I understand there's a prudence and responsibility in that. But in terms of a philosophy of life, I don't think that it's a good guiding force. I've seen this play out many times over many years with a lot of people. And generally what happens is the person becomes calcified in their lifestyle and rarely, if ever, reaches that inflection point where they're ready to retire and deploy those resources that they've accumulated in some kind of socially responsible manner. I'm not saying it doesn't happen,

but it doesn't happen as frequently as you might think. And as somebody who went to law school with a lot of people who said, I'm gonna do the law firm thing for a year, I need to pay off my loans, and then I'm gonna go do the thing that inspired me to go to law school in the first place. I'm sure that only a tiny percentage of those people

have actually made good on that aspiration because that's just the way that life works. So I would caution you against that strategy and I would encourage you to explore ways in which you can indulge that aspiration to be more service-oriented in your life in a manner that is sustainable with maintaining your current job

and whatever level of responsibility that demands that you stay in that job for however long. It doesn't mean that any work or investment of time that you make in the issues that inspire you or ignite you or get you excited need to make in the issues that inspire you or ignite you or get you excited need to be at the detriment of your job. Like there's ways to do it more sustainably. So alleviate that pressure on yourself.

It's almost like my intuition is that you need to feel that pain point. Like if I'm going out there and making a difference, my job is gonna suffer because I need to do it in this particular way that requires that my job suffer. And I think there are methods of effective altruism that would allow you to be engaged in productive solutions without having that downstream impact on your job.

Like even if you gave away $100 or $20 a week or a month to one of the nonprofits that has been approved of in the effective altruism world, you're making a huge difference without requiring any of your time. So it's about broadening your thinking in terms of around what that work looks like, while also finding ways within the construct of your job to spark that curiosity that you have about these issues and find ways within the confines of your free time to explore them. 100%, I mean, I don't think there's any reason to wait.

I mean, there's things you can do. You could go to beach cleanups, you can go to a protest, you can organize an event, you can organize a teaching. You know, there's things you can do on weekends that wouldn't necessarily impact your job. If you don't like your job and you don't wanna do it anymore, that's a different conversation.

Right, and you can be putting energy towards shifting your career focus. Right, like you had said before, like if you have responsibilities, family, mortgage, you might need to create a runway for yourself to be able to off ramp. But I also don't like this idea that like, you know how much money you're gonna make

if you do one or the other. Like you actually don't. Like if you have, say you're in the financial, it sounds to me like you're in the financial world, right? Sector. Who knows? Who knows? But you might think that that's gonna be the way you know you'll make money,

but you don't know how bringing that brain to the social causes and what might pop up in your mind, what kind of things might come up for you creatively, imagination-wise, entrepreneurial, that will, you don't know. No, you don't know. The illusion is that there's some kind of security in this certain situation. And if the pandemic has taught us anything,

or it's like you don't know. Or the Lehman Brothers, I bet those traders. Yeah, you don't know how long you're gonna be alive. You don't know how long that illusion of security will hold itself up. And this binary thinking of, if I'm a do-gooder, then I'll be poor. But if I seek security, then I'll be poor, but if I seek security,

then I'll be financially stable is also an illusion. To your point, like, let's say you've got, well, I'm super interested in this ocean plastic problem. And through the course of exploring your curiosity, you meet somebody or you stumble upon an idea that leads to some kind of entrepreneurial venture that not only ends up cleaning out the ocean, addressing this plastic problem,

but also makes you very wealthy in the meantime. Like, I think it's about, I think your instinct that this is finance, that he's in the financial industry. Another instinct that I have is that, it's about risk aversion. Like what is your relationship with risk, right? And this feels like somebody who has a certain level of risk aversion. Like what is your relationship with risk, right? And this feels like somebody who has a certain level

of risk aversion. And I think if you address that impulse or where that risk aversion is coming from, you can begin to untangle the knot and look at this from a broader, more nuanced, less binary view. Beautiful. All right.

Love it. But it's great instincts, Tyler. Thanks for the question. Appreciate it. Now we're closer to home. Guy up in Pasadena. Yo, yo, yo, Jason. Hey, Rich and Adam. This is Jason from Pasadena. I wanted to hear your opinions on something that's been weighing on me a bit, a little bit over the past couple of weeks. I've recently been doing a lot of reflection on establishing better connections with those around me and spiritually with the earth and our connection to it. So internally, I'm usually pretty pessimistic with a lot of things, but on the

surface, I try to remain positive and hopeful about our future and the future of the planet. My problem is it's getting harder and harder to remain optimistic in a world that literally seems to be falling apart. So like right now, the Caldor fire is scorching Tahoe and Hurricane Ida, you know, it's basically like laid waste to Louisiana. And the Northeast has had just like unprecedented rainfall during the summer of 2021,

just to mention a couple of things. Usually I retreat, you know, out to the wilderness here in California, but the vast majority of that is actually closed now just with the threat of the wildfire. So while in the past it seemed like global warming was just hearing about, you know, the Greenland ice sheet melting or something like that, now it really feels kind of like the apocalypse is upon us and the earth is just raging across, you know, all parts of the globe. So I guess my question is, how do we remain hopeful amidst this chaos while trying to

reestablish our innate connection with the planet? Thanks again for all the podcast. It's really a bright light I look forward to every week. Thanks a lot. Take care. It's a great question. I feel like it's a generational question. I think it's something that is on all of our minds. Like I have to cultivate my own optimism. I think my set point is fairly pessimistic. Oh, you mean generational, like everyone feels this a little bit.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I thought you meant like millennials feel it, but no one else. Well, I think there's a tweak on that. I think there is something to be said about that, like with Gen Z and millennials, like feeling this a little bit more. And with that, kind of a percolating resentment

about the generations that have preceded them that created this crisis and this mess that they're forced to contend with and charged with the responsibility of cleaning it up. And so I'm sympathetic and empathetic to the descent into depression and hopelessness over the whole thing. But hope and cultivating hopefulness,

I think is really important and it's a choice, right? And it's a guiding principle or kind of a litmus test for how you approach everything and how you look at life. And life is better when you're able to perceive it through an optimistic perspective. And in terms of how kind of functionally productive and of service you can be, that's really calibrated, I think,

in lockstep with your ability to be optimistic. So I think cultivating optimism and hopefulness is important. Understanding that change is possible. Like, again, that goes back to another guiding principle or lightning rod of this podcast. Like, change is possible. Like how many stories of people have I hosted over the years where people have met unforeseen obstacles and overcome them to transform their lives

or some issue that we thought was impossible to navigate and we figure out solutions. So I think the process for Jason begins with baby steps. Like how can you participate in meaningful change for yourself or for other people where perhaps the stakes are low, but you're in a position to actually, you know, do something beneficial for yourself or for others.

And I think with each step towards something like that, that you take, you're able to kind of cultivate that hopefulness and optimism within yourselves. Like make a small change for yourself, make a small change for your local community, go out and help another human being. Even if it's as simple as picking up the phone and spending an hour listening to a friend

who's going through a hard time, even when you don't have a solution for that friend, just being a sort of nonjudgmental sounding board for somebody else's pain is a huge service to do for somebody else. It's something that's gonna make you feel better about yourself. And I think in turn, hopeful and optimistic

about the possibility for change when it comes to trickier, more difficult problems. You scale that up, of course, and we're dealing with the existential threat of climate change, but I think mindset around how to approach these problems begins in those lower stakes environment where you're creating that neuroplasticity

around your worldview and your perspective about the possibility for positive change. Well said, I agree with you. I mean, I do think we all are feeling it. It's impossible, like with the level of media saturation we all live with, it's impossible not to notice these things that might have other, like, I think every time has been a troubled time.

I think every time has had their generational issues to contend with. This one, this feels a bit more existential than most, but also what makes it feel that way, I mean, it is, but what makes it feel that way doubly so is the amount of media we get that is constantly in our heads. So I understand why you feel that way.

I feel that way sometimes too. But there are, you know, just because there's, there's a, there's, we don't always know what's really happening. For instance, there's, there's someone I know who has a fly fishing business, or I've just been connected to as a fly fishing business in Tahoe and his whole business has been wiped out,

but it's not because Tahoe has been on fire. So the Calder fire has been on the outskirts, but he's saying Tahoe has been actually beautiful. And that it hasn't, like the wilderness is still lovely. And there's still, you know, he is suggesting that the media is wrong and it's hurting his business. That doesn't mean that there aren't problems.

But the point is that there is, I don't even know, I haven't talked to him yet, but I've just been connected to him. But the point I'm trying to make is within this terror dome that we create in our minds, we're overlooking this oasis of things are not as bad. You know what I mean? And so somewhere we have to start focusing

on the things that are positive, right? That's the way forward, right? If you can focus on things that are going well, even as everything else seems to be dwindling, that grows and your consciousness grows with that. So I would say when it comes to despair, focusing on beauty first will help you and focusing on things that are working

and synchronicity and I think that could help you. But I think you said it better than I've just. Well, I think that's a good point. I think it's a fair and accurate point. Like the idea like, well, all these parks are closed, so I'm gonna stay home. But there actually are places that you could go or areas right in our backyard where we,

it doesn't have to be on a grand scale. It can be on a small scale. You just go down to the beach or go up on a hike in the San Gabriel's or something like that. And try to connect with that innate impulse to be at one with nature, I think is important. And I think on top of that, and we talked a little bit about this earlier,

when I think about people who have been in this hunt for a long time, the Paul Hawkins and the Lewis Pugh's, these are guys who you would think would be completely pessimistic at this point and hopeless because they've been banging this drum for 30, 40 years. And it's only now that people are even beginning to pay attention to what they've been saying for a long time. And yet what you find are two people

who are highly engaged in communicating around the problem, highly engaged in solution-based discourse, and more often than not, hopeful about humanity's ability to finally get to a place where we can overcome these problems. I mean, Paul Hawken is all about solution and he's so optimistic about humanity. So again, in terms of trying to plug yourself

into some level of hopefulness around this, Jason, go to regeneration.org slash nexus and start exploring ways in which you can participate in solution-based activism. And I think that may alleviate that veneer of pessimism that you're feeling and perhaps, you know, re-energize yourself around the idea of being solution-based because we need everybody, we need all hands on deck,

actively plugged in to how we're gonna move forward collectively and optimistic about our ability to solve the problem because the pessimism certainly isn't gonna solve it, right? And so we actually require you to step up and shoulder the mantle of optimistic responsibility in this moment and to share that with your peers and your colleagues and your family and your friends.

There is a quote Guru Singh used to talk about it. When the pressure is on begin and it will be off. And I think of that in terms of writing all the time. Like when you have a deadline, you've felt this with your own deadlines. When you have a deadline and you just don't wanna get to it or something's stopping you or the procrastination is heavy,

or maybe you really still need to do more research, whatever it is, you don't really start right away and it just builds and builds and it gets more and more uncomfortable. As soon as you start, you feel so much better. So it's exactly what you're saying. As soon as you take action, even in this kind of tragic landscape that you're seeing,

and a lot of that is real, I think that you'll feel more, you will be on your way to feeling better about the world. Yeah, well said. Way to stick the landing. Thank you, because I fumbled a lot in the approach. I thought you handled it beautifully. That's a good place to finish. I thought you handled it beautifully. Thank you.

That's a good place to finish. Once again, we entered this conversation thinking we wouldn't have more than 45 minutes to an hour of stuff to talk about. We might've broken our record for longest roll on podcast. I don't know. And I'll say it again. I always do like, is this working for anyone?

Like, are we like way off base here? What does this podcast do? What does this, I don't, you know what? I thought I knew before today's episode, I am back to the drawing board. I have no idea. No idea. Maybe we'll figure it out two weeks from hence.

A fortnight. A fortnight. A fortnight hence. See you in a fortnight, mate. Right on. I feel good though, how do you feel? Feel great. Cool. Follow Adam on all the socials, I feel good though. How do you feel? I feel great.

Cool. Follow Adam on all the socials at Adam Skolnick for all your shark content and mask wearing hullabaloo. I don't know. I couldn't think of a word. Yeah, hullabaloo. Hullabaloo. Yeah, that's it.

I'm gonna start a mask company called hullabaloo. That's good. That's not bad. Yeah, I still think there's a market for the Skolnick wearing mask caricature, t-shirt, hoodie that just says Skolnick on it. We gotta work on that. Yeah.

You can follow me at Rich Roll in all the places, although on TikTok, I am I-A-M Rich Roll. Putting more and more content up on TikTok. Are you? So exciting. Leave us a message if you would like your inquiry queried, 424-235-4626. For links to everything we talked about today, visit the show notes on the episode page at richroll.com.

Also a couple of links in the description below if you're watching on YouTube. On that note, please don't forget to hit the subscribe button on YouTube, Apple, Spotify, all the places. What else do I wanna say? I think that's it. I wanna thank everybody who helped put on today's show. Jason Camiolo for audio engineering, production,

show notes, interstitial music. We have the added bonus of Kale Curtis, brother of Blake now on board to supplement our audio engineering. So that's very exciting. Blake of course, mans the shop in terms of video. We got Dan Drake assisting on video, also stepping up as our new creative director.

Jessica Miranda on graphics and we have, oh and Daniel Solis as well, new guy. We're building our team. We got so many people now. This team's crazy. Davey Greenberg on portraits today, half marathon runner. He's giving the thumbs up over there. And props to the crew.

Grayson Wilder, the crew. Yeah, props to the crew too, for being able to be so flexible and come in at different times. Yeah, props to the crew too, for being able to be so flexible and come in at different times. Yeah, we came in early today. Yeah, but it's always like that. And everyone's always enthusiastic. You got a nice team here.

The team is solid. You know who else is on the team? Who's that? Your boy DK. Hey. For advertiser relationships. We got AJ Akpudiyete. That's a beautiful name.

Yes, he's manning the TikTok channel right now. See, if Akpudiyete was my last name, it would be on a t-shirt already. Right. Yeah. Would be? Yeah. Selling out stadiums. Yeah. It is an epic last name.

And that's it. Theme music is always by Tyler Trapper and Harry. Thanks, we love you guys. See you back here in a couple of days, another epic episode. Adam, why don't you take us out? Peace plants. Thank you. Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha!