The Rich Roll Podcast - Roll On: Notes From Minneapolis

Episode Date: April 29, 2021

This week we dive into the why behind my decision to visit Minneapolis and what I learned from the experience. Plus stories from the swimming vault and some epic show & tell before fielding a few running-centric listener questions. Welcome to another edition of ‘Roll On’, wherein myself and Adam Skolnick dissect matters of the day in a manner that is instructive and sometimes even entertaining. Aside from serving as my sidekick and hypeman, Adam Skolnick is an activist and journalist best known as David Goggins’ Can’t Hurt Me, co-author. He writes about adventure sports, environmental issues, and civil rights for outlets such as The New York Times, Outside, ESPN, BBC, and Men’s Health. He is the author of One Breath and is currently using the ‘new dad’ excuse to avoid working on his novel. Topics explored in today’s conversation include: The Envol Swimrun Battle & Running For Justice Virtual Run Challenge; an update on the Iron Cowboy’s ‘Conquer 100’ challenge; the intention behind Rich’s trip to Minneapolis & his experiences in the city; what it means to reimagine public safety to create a safer society; Rich’s partnership with Ten Thousand and the new ‘Distance Kit’; and the future of lab-grown, ‘cultured’ meat.  In addition, we answer the following listener questions: How do you stay motivated in your endurance challenges? What advice can you offer first-time marathoners? How can you hone your nutrition for large endurance races? Thank you to Steven from Charleston, Casey from Illinois, and Asha & Savannah from British Colombia for your questions. If you want your query discussed, drop it on our Facebook Page, or better yet leave a voicemail at [phone]. Ten Thousand ‘Distance Kit’ Giveaway: We’re giving away 5 Distance Kits from Ten Thousand! To enter: (1) subscribe to the Rich Roll Podcast YouTube channel; and (2) Leave a comment under today’s episode video. We will pick 5 winners who will receive the full kit (short, tank, and socks) and reach out to them. FULL BLOG & SHOW NOTES: bit.ly/richroll598 YouTube: bit.ly/rollon598 Peace + Plants, Rich

Hey, everybody, welcome to the podcast. Before we dive in, real quick, we're brought to you today by recovery.com. I've been in recovery for a long time. It's not hyperbolic to say that I owe everything good in my life to sobriety. And it all began with treatment and experience that I had that quite literally saved my life. And in the many years since, I've in turn helped many suffering addicts and their loved ones find treatment. I've in turn helped many suffering addicts and their loved ones find treatment. And with that, I know all too well just how confusing and how overwhelming and how challenging it can be to find the right place and the right level of care. Especially because, unfortunately, not all treatment resources adhere to ethical practices.

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step towards recovery. To find the best treatment option for you or a loved one, again, go to recovery.com. We're brought to you today by recovery.com. I've been in recovery for a long time. It's not hyperbolic to say that I owe everything good in my life to sobriety. And it all began with treatment and experience that I had that quite literally saved my life. And in the many years since, I've in turn helped many suffering addicts and their loved ones find treatment. And with that, I know all too well just how confusing and how overwhelming and how challenging it can be to find the right place and the right level of care, especially because, unfortunately, not all treatment resources adhere to ethical practices. It's a real problem. at recovery.com, who created an online support portal designed to guide, to support, and empower you to find the ideal level of care tailored to your personal needs. They've partnered with the

best global behavioral health providers to cover the full spectrum of behavioral health disorders, including substance use disorders, depression, anxiety, eating disorders, gambling addictions, and more. Navigating their site is simple. Search by insurance coverage, location, treatment type, you name it. Plus, you can read reviews from former patients to help you decide. Whether you're a busy exec, a parent of a struggling teen, or battling addiction yourself, I feel you. I empathize with you.

I really do. And they have treatment options for you. Life in recovery is wonderful, and recovery.com is your partner in starting that journey. When you or a loved one need help, go to recovery.com and take the first step towards recovery. To find the best treatment option for you or a loved one, again, go to recovery.com and take the first step towards recovery. To find the best treatment option for you or a loved one, again, go to recovery.com. All right, let's do the show.

What's up, podcastaholics? Roll On is back. Adam Skolnick and I are inside your ear hole, infecting you with ideas, big and small. Good to be here. Good to see you, my friend. Before we get into it, in addition, as you may or may not know, we also, in the course of doing this show, conduct a little bit of show and tell.

We've got some good ones for you on that front today. And we round it all out by answering some of the questions dropped on our voicemail, which you can ring up at 424-235-4626. If you happen to be watching at http://www.youtube.com slash richroll. That's very thorough. Yes, just so there's no confusion.

Please take a second to hit that subscribe button. Maybe even click that notification bell or the like button. If you're feeling frisky, leave a comment below with your thoughts on audio. You must also subscribe on Apple Podcasts or Spotify because that is the rule. The rule of life. How are you doing?

I'm doing good. I've got my right glute is a little twingy since you're asking. Theragun. There's a ritual application for every problem in your life. I've got a product for you, my friend. I have the Theragun. What happened?

You know, I don't know. It's just like, I've had a piriformis that is cranky for a long time and sometimes it's more cranky than others. And I think that's really what it is. I think, you know what it is, is that if I'm not doing my yoga, like five days a week, at least in the morning,

my body tells me. You gotta get on that Goggins stretching routine. I do. Three hours a day. I could be more Goggins. There's no question about it. We all could. There's a lot of room there.

A lot of room between where I am and Goggins. I'm comfortably at the 38 to 40%. That's pretty good. I'm not even sure I'm there. You might be over indexing there a little bit. I might be. Definitely. Happy belated. Yeah. Definitely. Happy belated Earth Day, Rich.

Happy Earth Day yourself. Every day is Earth Day. That is the refrain as trite as that may sound. Yes, every day. I was remiss I didn't post on Instagram my happy Earth Day, Earth Day thoughts. You didn't virtue signal on Earth Day? No, I didn't do that.

I'm feeling like a bad, Missed opportunity. A bad progressive, I guess. You know what I feel like? Part of me is like, it's sort of like Valentine's Day. It's like, oh, okay, we've made this social contract that on this day, we all have to do X, Y, and Z. And I don't know, man, I resist that.

You should, I had forgotten that my wife and I long ago before we were husband and wife or wife and husband, it's more apt. There's a virtue signal. Yes. Before we were wife and husband, we had decided that we would ignore Valentine's day. And then I'd forgotten that.

And so I bought her a bunch of stuff for Valentine's day this year. And then she didn't have anything for me. And she's like, we don't do Valentine's day. I'm like, I knew the rule. I knew that. Your chivalry. I got in trouble for not knowing don't do Valentine's day. I'm like, I knew the rule. I knew that. Your chivalry. I got in trouble for not knowing our rules on Valentine's.

There you go. It's confusing this culture that we live in. It is. As a man trying to make the right decisions and the right moves. What else is going on? I've been swimming more, which is good. I got like in three times the week before last. And again, this week I've been swimming more, which is good. I got like in three times the week before last.

And again, this week I've been swimming more or I guess last week and it's been great. You know, the water's warming up a little bit. Got the big swim run challenge coming up in June, team Enville, Nicholas Ramirez, you know, the guy who advises me on all things swim run, he got inspired by the 4x4 48. And saw this like,

he saw that as this accessible challenge for people who are interested in ultra to push themselves. This is an accessible challenge for people who are interested in swim run. It's much less demanding than 4x4 48. It's over the course of June, he's got teams in different locations and anyone can sign up and he can assign you a team. You don't have to know anybody on your team and you don't have to even team can be virtual. The team is virtual.

And basically there's kids teams. If you're 10 and over, and of course, mostly it's going to be adults. And all you have to do is a minimum of 15 minute swim run activity with at least two swims and two runs. So there's two transitions, right? 15 minute activity could be enough. His wife is who, you know, they have two young kids. His wife's just gonna do a three kilometer swim run every day with a group of people in Stockholm. So it doesn't have to be this huge thing.

And you get 10 points per activity plus one point per kilometer or 1.25 point per kilometer if it's over 10K, if one session is over 10K. And at the end of the month, they're gonna tally it all up and they're gonna decide who wins. That's cool. Where do you find out more about that if people wanna sign up?

It's teamenvol, which is on Instagram and they've got a website. E-N-V-O-L. Yes. Yes. Yeah. And two Euro of your, you're signing up costs a little money and two Euro of that's going to Sea Shepherd

inspired by our discussion. That's dope. Yeah. I like that. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So it's a positive thing. And part of the reason they're doing that is that a lot of swim run races are still being- Up in the air.

Yeah, they're up in the air or not happening because of COVID. And so it's to kickstart people's training, but also during the month, there's gonna be special days where he spotlights swim run organizers where they have a specific challenge. So like swim run Belgium might have a specific challenge

for people that you could take up or not, it's up to you. And there might be prizes associated with that. What if you live somewhere where all the pools are closed and you're landlocked? So that's a good question. So where all the pools are closed and you're landlocked? Yeah. That's very interesting. You could try to-

I'm positing that as a theoretical. Well, the best thing I could think of- As a thought experiment. So the world champion, Desiree, I have to look her up now, cause I'm silly like that, but she's one of the world champions on the women's side. And she also does sometimes races with men.

So she does the mixed team stuff. She's gonna be leading a group of mercenaries. They're kind of the loner swim run people. So there's the guy that is being coached by Nicholas in Iran and he's the only swim runner in Iran that Nicholas knows of. That's pretty cool. And so that guy's gonna be on Desiree's team.

There's gonna be, so people who are far out that aren't connected to any swim run community. Cause even though in LA, there's not that many people involved, but there are people around. But in, yeah, so he's got, that group is gonna be, Desiree's team is gonna be the mercenary group.

I feel like there's a New York Times assignment where you could go to Iran and do a story on the lone swim run guy. If only I could just pitch you for my New York Times stories, I'd have more of them. Nobody's interested in that. No, I think the Iran story would be good. For someone for like that to be like a news story,

he'd have to do well in a race, I think, or like, but there is, that's what Nico really wants. Is he trained in the pool at the palace that Bonnie talks about in her book? Well, that's an amazing, like that's Iraq. Yeah, oh yeah. Yeah, but that's- I just played my dumb American card.

No, no, no. But I just think it's interesting. Like Iran is a lot harder to get to than Iraq for Americans. So it would be, but I bet I could do it. It's just a matter of getting permission, especially if you're doing something on culture like that, swim, run or sports.

So that's cool. I would love to do a story on, there was an open water swimmer who was trying to stave off like a civil war or like a civil conflict in Tunisia. And he wanted to swim from one part of the country to the other and to do like the kind of swim diplomacy. And so he did that this year.

That's pretty cool. That's a cool story too. What else? What else? Oh, May 5th, there's a virtual run, running for justice. It's national day of awareness for missing and murdered indigenous women and girls. I don't know how many people are aware,

but there has been this epidemic of murdered and missing indigenous women in cities around the country, but also in native American nations on the reservations. It's something well-known, it's been publicized. There's been kind of even a movie about it. This is a problem that's been ongoing for years and years. And it's women who have kind of risen up to try to get justice for these women,

or at least investigate the crimes. And Jordan Daniel, who is indigenous woman, local lives here in LA, was a collegiate level runner. We talked about her once before. And she was doing like, I think 10,000, 5,000, 10,000 K races on track. Yeah. And she ended up becoming a marathoner after college,

kind of dealing with an eating disorder during her college career and afterwards, kind of going through that recovery and embracing longer distances as a way to pay tribute to the women and girls who've gone missing. And for a long, and she ran the Boston Marathon in war paint, symbolizing this cause. Oh, wow.

And now she is leading this virtual run on May 5th. So we'll link up the show notes. Everyone can sign up. There's a little bit of a fee, not too much. And it's about kind of raising awareness. So you put it on your social media and get more people aware of this epidemic. Yeah, that's cool.

I like that, man. Yeah, and she's phenomenal as a person and as an athlete. Maybe we should get her on the podcast. We should get her on the podcast. Cool, man. Well, how are you, Rich? What's going on? I'm doing pretty good.

I feel pretty refreshed after a very hectic five days in Minneapolis, which we're gonna talk about in a couple minutes. Got a good ride in yesterday, like a 60 mile ride. So I'm feeling progressively a little bit more fit than I was maybe a month ago. So that feels good, but a little bit off my routine due to some travel.

But I did have one kind of quick story that's sort of a win of the week that I wanted to share up top here. My boys, Tyler and Trapper, my step-sons, and my nephew, Hari, just wrapped production on their first album or EP, it's five songs. Fantastic. In a proper studio, and just for context,

like the boys have been playing music together, these three guys who created the theme song for this podcast on the first day of the first episode, it still remains since they were like six years old. I mean, Julie put a guitar in Tyler's hands when he could barely talk and it was all she wrote. Like that was, it was clear, like this was gonna be his thing.

Same thing with Trapper with drums. And we've been sort of waiting and waiting for them to finally lay down some tracks in proper fashion. Tyler along the way, his voice has developed. It's so beautiful. And he's become quite an extraordinary songwriter. And they've been rehearsing and rehearsing and rehearsing for months, actually throughout the whole last year

of the pandemic. And Hari is originally a childhood friend. Yeah, Julie's brother's child. Okay, cousin. They've been rehearsing for like a year. And the original intent was that they were gonna have their friend Chris from this band Grizzly Bear produced, but Chris is in Spain.

I mean, Grizzly Bear is like their favorite band. This is like a huge opportunity for them. Chris is in Spain, however, and it was just becoming obvious that it was gonna be too tricky to do that in any meaningful way. But they linked up with this other young producer here in Hollywood and they just spent all of last week

at this studio called 64 Sound. Julie and I went and visited on the final evening of recording and it's this totally dope, like old school recording studio in Highland Park. That's got this incredible vibe. It's owned by Pierre de Reeder, who's the dude from Rilo Kylie. And over the course of the history of this studio,

so many awesome bands have recorded there from X, Sleater Kinney, Amanda Palmer, Ben Harper, Death Cab for Cutie, Sia, Maroon 5. So there's this beautiful history. There's a cool studio tour video of 64 Sound. I'll link that up in the description and the show notes. So you can kind of see what it looks like. Amazing. And they just had this extraordinary experience.

They got to use an instrument that was used by Elliot Smith, who they like revere. And they had some of their friends come in and accompany them for some of the sessions, including this guy, Harrison Whitford, who's an extraordinary guitar player and is Phoebe Bridger's guitarist. So Tyler Trapper kind of came up

in the Phoebe Bridgers extended universe. Like they're, you know, they don't know her personally, but they know a lot of the musicians that are part of her kind of ecosystem. So that was really cool getting to hang out with Harrison. So they laid down five songs and it was just, you know, as a parent, such a proud moment to see the, not really the culmination,

really the beginning of so many years of time that these kids, passion and time that these kids have put into their music now, you know, turning into something that they can share with the rest of the world. And I had this moment the night before they were going into their first studio session, they were doing final rehearsals at the house.

So the whole kitchen area, kitchen living area in our house was just musical instruments everywhere. And they were playing some of the songs and I was sitting with Julie listening and she just started tearing up. She was like, cause we see them as the six and seven year old, eight year old, 10 year olds that every time we would have a dinner party,

they would play, you know, they play a couple songs by Nirvana or Rage Against the Machine or, you know. So now they're men, you know, they're young men at the, you know, kind of coming into their creative prime. And it was just really cool to see. So anyway, as a parent, that's a win, you know, to see that happening, especially as somebody

who spends a lot of time talking about the importance of pursuing, you know, what's meaningful to you. And these guys have, you know, had extreme fidelity to this idea of becoming professional musicians. And now it's sort of, they're coming out of the starting gate with that, which is great. Props to the boys.

Do they have a name for the album yet? No, and they don't even have a band name yet. Oh God, I love that. Yeah, so they're still working on that. Tyler wrote all the songs and he's lead vocals and lead guitar. And they played all the instruments with the exception of some of the people that came into it, lay down accompanying tracks.

But Tyler doesn't want it to be Tyler Piot. He wants to have a proper band name, but they just haven't landed on it yet. He said he has five contending ideas, but he wasn't willing to share any of them. Piot's a good band name. You can tell him that. I'm not telling him anything.

I'd say the working title is Trace Primos. Is that what it is? Three cousins. I'll let him know. I'm sure he'll be happy to receive that. We got a lot to talk about today, but before we get into the big story, which is gonna be all about my experience in Minneapolis,

why don't we drop in and do a segment we're calling the Iron Cowboy Ticker. Iron Cowboy Ticker. That's right. Which is also kind of a win of the week. Today it's the win of the week section too, right? We have lots of wins of the week. We do?

Yeah, there's more. Okay. Keep going. The Iron Cowboy Ticker, he passed 50 Ironmans or quote unquote Ironman distance triathlons. Yeah, you can't call it an Ironman. Yeah, I'm sorry. Iron distance triathlons.

He passed the 50 mark, which was his own world record, Guinness world record, correct? I don't know exactly how Guinness defines all of this stuff. I do know that he announced that it was a world record once he completed his 51st. Yeah. When he did the original 50,

obviously those were all in different states and he was traveling. So now it's all like very home-based, but from what I understand or gather, yeah, nobody has done more than 50 in a row. Right, so his is 51. Right. So he had a big, I think it was his most

for a scump setting yet where a lot of people turned out to be part of the record and they ran some of the marathon with them and then he gave a nice speech. I saw that. He gives a little speech every evening when he concludes and he's amazingly kind of together and eloquent dropping a few words of wisdom on whoever's remaining

at the late hour when they complete the marathon. Did he just get more weather? Did I see on today's Instagram or is that an old photo? If you just started this like six weeks later, it would be a much more pleasant experience. Like they just cannot escape. We're now in essentially in May

and they're still dealing with snow and sleet and all this terrible stuff. They could do early June. More power to them. I guess that's why it's called an adventure or a challenge, right? So he's day 57? Today he's on day 57.

He does appear to be having some significant hip issues. There was a bit of a limp that I noticed in him the other day. I saw him like on the bike using like a kind of ball roller thing on his hip while he was riding. So I know that's been bugging him, but to date, every time he's had some kind of setback from his swollen ankles to whatever he's dealing with.

He had that shin problem, right? Yeah, he just kind of powers through it and seems to get somewhat past it, which again, I think is testament to the power of the body to adapt to extreme circumstances. And again, I said it before, I'll say it again, this guy is so mentally strong, perhaps one of the most mentally strong people

you're ever gonna encounter. My fear is that his mental strength exceeds his physical strength, but today he's still cranking. And it does feel like there's been a little bit of a breakthrough. Like his mood seems to be really good. He's smiling a lot and, you know, seems to be really engaged with the people that show up

and track miles with him. And he shaved his beard. He shaved his beard after 50. I think that was the playoff beard. One of the wing men did too. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So yeah, it's like, whoa, what happened to the Iron Cat? He looks like a totally different person.

Yeah, he looks polished now. He's a polished cowboy. But sending him love and wind in his sails. It's like he was the bounty hunter on the planes and then he got recruited to the Texas Rangers and they said, you could keep the hat, but you got to shave. He's switching it up, man.

No, but I think he had like a real problem with his ankle or shin or something. And he had to, he found a brace and he was walking and using poles. And then gradually he was able to like, if you looked at his marathon times from like maybe marathon 30 to 45, 50, every day it was getting a little bit quicker,

a little bit quicker, a little more running, a little bit less walking. And then the last couple of days, I think he had- The hip. Yeah. Now it's the hip. It's a little bit lower. So it slowed him down. Yeah, but not much.

But he's gotten over and through these other things. Amazing. And he's on the backside of this. So much work remains to be done, but- It's amazing. It's gotta be an amazing feeling to know that he's on the backside of this. So much work remains to be done, but- It's amazing. It's gotta be an amazing feeling to know that he's more than halfway there. I'm in awe of the guy.

It's pretty crazy, right? It is. So everybody send him your love at ironcowboyjames on Instagram where he and his family and all his people that are supporting him have done an amazing job at storytelling in real time. No doubt. This event as it unfolds.

It's always like the first Instagram story that I watch every day to get caught up. I mean, it's like a million little clips, you know, it's a lot, but you can just, you know, check in. And there is something, we said this before, it's something, there's something comforting. I'm comforted by every day waking up, I look at it and he's like climbing out of the pool. Yeah. And I'm like, there's something comforting. I'm comforted by every day waking up. I look at it and he's like climbing out of the pool.

Yeah. And I'm like, there he is. He's still doing it, man. It's like clockwork. Well, you know, you were talking about long-term distance or long-term effects of these kinds of ultra outputs. I was reading a story written by an editor of mine at the New York Times, Randy Archibald about the anvil. You're familiar with the anvil race in Virginia.

He wrote this years ago. It was like 2016, I think. It's a great piece. I mean, it's hilarious and fun. And it's about five, it's a quintuple Ironman, but they also got cease and desist letters. They couldn't use Ironman, but it's the same distance. And you could either do it all the whole swim all at once,

the whole, then do the whole running, the whole bike, and then do the whole run with sleep deprivation, or you could do each one, one after like day by day, and then there's a cutoff time. And so those, you got to choose. Right. And so he was there in Virginia and it was all in this, it's similar to the way James is doing it

because it's all in a contained space. There's a thing called the DECA that's similar to that, where there's a loop it's in England and they just go around in circles. That's 10 of them, right? Yeah. So anyway, in that story though, he referenced some study that like some doctors are out

or scientists are out there thinking that there is a long-term health, like heart health implications with ultra, like there's scar tissue or something around the heart. Have you heard that before? Yeah, I've heard that, I've heard that. Yeah, I mean, I think that there's truth to that. It probably breaks down on an individual basis,

like who becomes susceptible to that kind of thing. But certainly that's a risk. It's a risk that James has willingly invited into his life. And we need pioneers like this to show us what's possible. When I did the Epic Five, it was like, Oh my God, you did five. And now it's like, this guy's gonna do a hundred. And now it's like, this guy's gonna do a hundred. You know, it's like once it's, you know,

it's the same thing as, you know, banister breaking the four minute mark in the mile. Like once a barrier is broken, then the flood gates open and everybody's perception of possibility gets elevated. And that's kind of the story of the human race. Yeah, I'm with you. I love seeing them out there doing it. I just had never heard that about the heart stuff before.

Yeah, there's lots of studies on that kind of thing. All right, well, we're gonna take a quick break. And when we come back, we're gonna talk about Minneapolis and other sundry topics. Dateline Minneapolis. All right, we're back. Let's talk about Minneapolis. Let's talk about it.

So the week of April 13, I spent along with Blake and Jason in Minneapolis. The idea being to garner a tactile kind of firsthand boots on the ground experience of what is actually transpiring there. I said this in the introduction to the Jeremiah Ellison episode that went up earlier this week, that it's easy to think you have a sense of what's going on

based upon the news that you consume or the newspapers that you're reading or the cable news channel that you're watching. And it's something very different to actually be there and sort of touch it, feel it, to be present and immersed in the events that are transpiring. And I suspect you as an investigative journalist

have had this experience time and time again. I'm not an investigative journalist. It was something interesting and new to take the podcast on the road. I mean, certainly when I travel and go out of town, I've traditionally brought a case and do podcasts on the road, but this was different. It was more event inspired as opposed to just,

oh, I'm gonna be in the city giving a talk. I might as well bag some podcasts along the way. Right, right, right. This was part and parcel to an event that has captivated the whole world in a way because of the social justice implications and because we were all captive audience to George Floyd's death and murder. the social justice implications. And because we were all captive audience,

George Floyd's death and murder. So it's crazy. And I mean, my experience has been mostly with underreported stories, but it's the same in the sense that you drop into a place where you haven't been, don't necessarily know the lay of the land and you have an objective and a limited amount of time with which to get everything done.

And you, so there's an element of adrenaline that's kind of always thrumming through you. You never feel like you can never relax until you get stuff in the can. And this was that times a thousand because you flip on the TV and it's just Minneapolis 24 hours a day on cable news and you're there. Right, you feel competitive.

And it's all happening around you. And you wonder what everyone else is recording, like how am I, but the beautiful thing about you doing it is that a photographer named Tom Stoddard, who I worked with earlier in my career, he's a legend, English photographer, has been around for years and years. And he was in Bosnian war and other places.

He's been a war photographer. He's been the guy that is in Tony Blair's limo. I mean, he's done it all in photography from the news perspective. And when I was working in displaced people's camps in Myanmar with him for a feature for men's health, he said, you know, a lot of, some other people have done this story,

but you haven't done the story. And so it's still important you do it for the first time. It's still important. And in this sense, it's even more so, because first of all, you weren't just doing the quippy kind of public radio, you know, story, or even a 30 minute narrative, you are doing deep in-depth interviews

with people who normally are just on the TV for about five minutes. And so you bringing your perspective and your skill as an interviewer, which I think, and I just wrote about this, I don't think there's a parallel for you as an interviewer out there in broadcasting. That's a heavy statement. I've always believed that.

I've told you that before. And so you come into this area with all this energy, but for you bringing your perspective, it's always gonna stay relevant. So it's a really interesting challenge for you. I mean, what drew you to do, like to mobilize the podcast in this direction? Cause it's new ground for you.

Yeah, I mean, it definitely was an opportunity to get out of my comfort zone and play with the format and try something new, but I felt called to do it. It felt important. It felt like the right thing to do. And I feel really good about the, not just the content that we were able to gather over the course of the week,

but the decision to do it in the first place. And I think it's a direction that felt right for me. How the audience processes it is none of my business. That's up to them. But the rule for this show has always been for me to follow my curiosity and to try to have meaningful conversations that matter. And this squarely falls into that category.

But it all came together in a very interesting way. So I should probably recount that. What happened was my friend Brogan Graham, who longtime listeners will remember was on the podcast many years ago. I think it was four years ago, back at 277, something like that, episode 277. Brogan is one of the co-founders of the November Project, which is a global free fitness movement

that's now in countries all over the world. He had been living in San Diego. He relocated to Minneapolis a couple of years ago and we've stayed in touch and been friends, kind of internet friends. And he reached out several weeks ago, a couple of weeks ago and was like, listen, obviously, there's a lot going on in this city right now.

I think it would be really interesting for you to come here and get some interviews and I could help corral some interesting folks. I know a lot of people in the city. I'm pretty plugged in. What do you think about that? And I immediately thought that that was a great idea. And time, you know, is ticking pretty quickly on how this story with the Chauvin trial was evolving.

So it was kind of a moment of clearing the calendar and just jumping on it and getting out there. And doing also in terms of getting out of my comfort zone, when I've done podcasts on the road in the past, it's just me, right? But this time it's like, let's bring Blake, let's bring Jason, let's do, you know, full production, you know, quality video and audio.

We'll get a hotel room with a big room in it and we can set up a set and we'll conduct as many interviews as we can. But as we approached the day to depart to Minneapolis, I was struggling to get, we did some research, like who would be the people that we would wanna talk to? Let's reach out to them. And we were getting no responses.

And part of that is because I'm sure, because everything in that city was obviously very tense, but also kind of evolving moment to moment. And there was a sense that nobody could really commit to anything, because who knows what's gonna happen the next day. And the people that I was reaching out to are also in high demand with the media

and the whole media universe is now camped out in Minneapolis trying to get people to interview. So on some level, I was competing with the networks for time and attention. And if you're somebody, if you're a civic leader in Minneapolis, you have to gauge how you wanna invest your time. Should I go on Good Morning America

or should I do the original podcast, right? So we get on the plane and it was very unclear whether we were gonna be able to interview anybody, but I know, and I know you know, cause we talked about this, that when your heart is pure, when your heart is true, the universe will conspire to support you. I don't think that's at all right.

I know, I joke. It's more like you have to show up. Yeah, if you go to the story. And you're in 100% for the adventure and whatever is going to unfold, then magical things can happen. But if you're like, well, I don't have it all scheduled, so I'm not gonna go.

You're depriving yourself of that miracle. 100%, 100%. And I've done this many times in the past. So I knew to kind of trust that it would be okay. And it ended up being more than okay. We got incredible interviews with a variety of super interesting people. And, you know, once again, like affirmed that idea

that like, sometimes you just have to show up. Can I set the context a little bit here? Cause one of the people you interviewed, the first episode just came out today. We're recording it on this on a Monday and last night, the Jeremiah Ellison episode just dropped. But just to quickly set the stage, you get out there a week before the jury delivers

their verdict and you're there like right up until them, like a couple of days before the verdict comes in, right? Yeah. Or before the closing arguments. Right, right, right. So just to backtrack a moment, Brogan deserves a ton of credit for really being an incredible host and helping to open up a bunch of doors.

I'm wearing this t-shirt, it says Zoom call summer camp. Brogan sent this to me like almost a year ago. I love it, so I wanted to wear it today in honor of Brogan. Well, Brogan was kind of like your fixer, right? Like we- Yeah, he's kind of a fixer. He also gifted me with that moose

that you see in the center of the table there. Amazing. And he also created this podcast, this Rich Roll podcast bingo card, which I'm gonna get framed here for the studio that has like, you know, basically all the words that tend to recur on the podcast. Give us a few.

Refuel, gut health, John Joseph, Goggins, precipice. He missed a few like unpack, new book. Baked in. Paragon busting, vegan, swim run is on there. And then it's got like, you can cut out your little, you know, bingo. I love it. Bingo chip and the whole thing.

So you gotta play bingo chip and the whole thing. We gotta play bingo. Anyway, Brogan is one in a million. He's one in a billion. Like he's the kind of guy who like goes out of his way to do cool creative things like that. So shout out to Brogan. He very much wants your job, so careful.

My job? Yeah. I think I am gonna have him come in and he's gonna be in the area at some point in the not too distant future. I'm gonna have him sit in and he's gonna be in the area at some point in the not too distant future. I'm gonna have him sit in and read some ads with me. Perfect. Yeah.

So you have him sit in with us and- Yeah, it'll be good. I'll just get pushed out of the way. No, you're not getting pushed out. Your job is secure, Adam. Is that Brogan the moose or the caribou? The moose. That's not him personally.

Oh, okay. But to answer your question, yeah. So the Jeremiah Ellison episode just went up. We were present through the culmination of the defense presenting their case in the Chauvin trial. So we left Saturday morning. So Friday, the last day, the defense had rested and it was then headed to,

then Monday was closing arguments and then to the jury. And we don't know what happened with that. Convicted on all three counts. That we should, yeah. Second degree murder, third degree murder and manslaughter. But there was this very palpable sense that the city was on edge and had the verdict gone a different way.

I'm pretty confident that the city would have exploded. Well, plus like the day before you leave or the night like Dante Wright is killed. Right, so that's on top of the whole thing. So just to set the stage a little bit, we arrive Tuesday night, I think. We get there at like, I don't know, 8, 8.30 or something like that.

And we're staying in a hotel right in downtown. We're driving through downtown to get to the hotel. It's completely boarded up. There's nothing open. There's no people anywhere. It was very eerie in that regard. None of us had eaten dinner yet. And there was a restaurant in the hotel.

The only vegan option was spaghetti. And for $22, you could get an order of spaghetti that was like the size of your fist. I heard two of those for $44 and felt like I'd only eaten an appetizer and I was starting to lose my mind. I'm like, we gotta order more food. But there were no delivery drivers

and very few restaurants open. There was also the curfew, right? Right. So the curfew is at 10 PM. Restaurants weren't taking orders after nine, but there was no drivers to deliver the food. So we would go on DoorDash, which is the main food delivery service in that area.

And it would allow you to like place your order and it would look all good and it would charge your credit card. And then you'd get a pop-up saying like, we just canceled your order, there's no drivers. But they made sure to charge your credit card first. So I did that three times and racked up like, you know, $300 in food delivery.

They never showed up. They never showed up. Finally, Jason, through his keen telephone and interpersonal skills, cajoled a Chinese restaurant into delivering us a bunch of food. So it ended up being fine. But for a moment there, I was like,

we're not gonna be able to eat. So that was the first night. Then after that, we started to get to work and trying to pin down some people to interview. And a bunch of the people finally did get back to us. And we were able to lock down a bunch of interviews. We ended up touring George Floyd Square, which was an extraordinary experience.

And I said this in the podcast with Jeremiah, but in many ways defied my expectations of what it would be in so many ways. And in that is a powerful lesson or reminder that when you think you understand something, perhaps you don't understand it as well as you think you do. Because I'd seen George Floyd Square, as all of us have on television a thousand times,

I formed in my mind what it would be like, what it looked like, what the environment surrounding it would be like. And it was really none of those things. We shot a bunch of video. We're able to work with a couple local guys, Jordan and Benny, who did some portraits and shot some video for us. So we're gonna try to put together a video

out of that experience. And it was really powerful and meaningful and also very meta given that the eyes of the world were kind of upon this city while we were there, including the fact that on all day Friday, Dante Wright's entire family was in the lobby of the hotel. So you'd see them on CNN, you ride the elevator down and like there they all are with their lawyer.

And so, you know, it just felt meaningful to be there. And I felt a responsibility and a certain level of pressure to, I don't wanna say get it right. Brogan is always like, you're not gonna get it right. Release yourself from the pressure of trying to get it right. But at least be able to do service to these people who are donating their time to share their story.

So it was very intense. Like I was prepping most of the time with the exception of kind of going out to George Floyd Square and it was just bang, bang, bang, interview, interview, interview. So- What hits you at George Floyd Square? I mean, I know you've talked about it a little bit

on social media already and then in the podcast really eloquently, but it was kind of in brief because you're talking to Jeremiah about his work. What was it for you? Because to me, when I look at the photos and look at the video, it almost is like it was a retrograde moment in America. Like it was a throwback moment, a lynching on television.

And it almost looks that way. It almost looks like what America used to look like back when people couldn't eat at the lunch counters. You know, it's kind of got that throwback, like retro look to it. Well, it's in a neighborhood that, you know, hasn't necessarily modernized to look like 2021. So you can easily see it, you know, as 1965 in many ways.

The neighborhood itself is fairly residential. Like I said, with Jeremiah, I expected it to be a much more urban neighborhood than it was. The space itself is much larger than I expected. On the day that we were there, I mean, obviously your emotional experience of visiting George Floyd Square

is gonna be heavily dependent upon what's happening in the square on that day. And certainly there are moments where there's a lot of people there. Sometimes it's celebratory and joyous. On the day that we were there, it was gray and kind of cold and rain, drizzling. There weren't that many people there.

It was the middle of the afternoon and it just felt somber. It was unbelievably quiet in the space. And it was, I was struck by the idea that it's kind of like this living breathing museum, which is what I said the other day as well. I didn't expect to be as moved by it as I was, cause I'd seen it so many times, like, all right,

we're gonna go do this thing. And then I was like very moved by what I saw. And it's really only in part about George Floyd. It's really about all of the people, like the legacy that led up to George Floyd with all of the people who have died painted on the street. There's a cemetery, sort of a mock cemetery that they set up with gray stones

for all the people that have died. And every little piece- In Minneapolis or overall? I think it's for Minneapolis. For Minneapolis. Every piece of graffiti art, every mural, every little artifact that's placed is not policed, but kind of managed by a community of people

that have a say in what's, you can't just go in there and paint a mural or paint on the street. It's not a, what do you call that? Like a- Public art space. Yeah, it is a public art space, but there's a lot of intention that goes into

what's gonna happen there and what's not. We had spent, and again, forgive me for repeating what I talked about with Jeremiah, but we had spent a good 45 minutes to an hour visiting. Then as we're leaving, we encounter this group of people who are all members of something called the Agape Collective, I think it's called. And this is the story that I wanna tell.

So maybe 10 of them, they're all wearing the same t-shirt. And one of the guys says, "'Hey man, what are you guys doing here?' Not in a overly aggressive or threatening way, but more like curiosity with a little bit of an edge, like, hey, state your purpose. Right. You know, like tell us what you're all about. Yes.

Brogan's like, oh, I live here. These are my friends. They're from Los Angeles. This is Rich. He has a podcast and we're just here visiting, trying to understand what's going, you know, get a better sense of what this is all about. And the guy goes, oh, you have a podcast.

What's your podcast? This is kind of a health and wellness bent, but I talked to all kinds of interesting people. And he's like, do you do social justice? And I said, yeah, a little bit. It's not all the time, but that's why I'm here. I'm here to have some conversations with people about what's happening here.

And he goes, okay. And then he looks at me and he goes, what's your podcast do? And I was like, what does my podcast do? I was like, what is my, and I literally was a deer in headlights. I was like, what does your podcast do? And I did not have like an immediate answer for him.

I was like, he put me on the spot with that one. Right, right. What does it do? And I kind of muttered was like, he put me on the spot with that one. Right, right. What does it do? And I kind of muttered through like, well, you know, blah, blah, blah, I just, you know, I try to empower people, whatever. You said something, but inside you were like, that's not it.

Yeah, I was like, I really should have an answer to that question. And whether he knew it or not, I mean, that was like the ultimate question. Like, that's a profound question. Like, what is your, and then the rest of the week, Brogan was joking with me. He's like, hey, Rich, what does your podcast do?

What does your podcast do? That's like jewels from Pulp Fiction. You almost just started walking the earth. I know. That was it. Exactly. I was like, I give up, right? Rich walks the earth.

I'm like, what an amazing question. And so anyway, we said enough to at least, I don't know if we didn't win them over, but sort of made them feel comfortable enough that our intentions were pure. And one of the women then gave us this incredible tour of the space. There's a greenhouse there where they're growing plants

and walked us through all the different kind of mini installations throughout the space. And it was kind of an amazing experience. It's kind of a reclaimed area that now belongs to the community, but in a very controlled, not controlled, but a very intentional kind of controlled way, right? Very much so.

Yeah. When you breach the border of it, there's a big sign saying, now you're entering the free state of George Floyd. And there's also these placards up that kind of state the, I don't know if I wanna call them rules, but like things to bear in mind when you walk in here, like this is a place of grieving.

This is not for your Instagram moment. This is a place of, that is somber and- They need that though. Please like act accordingly essentially, right? And you realize like how much thought and intention has gone into this. And yet there is a debate over when to open the businesses that are within the square.

Again, something I talked about with Jeremiah, there's business owners that would like to reopen their businesses, but you know, is that a good idea right now? There's different and conflicting opinions on that. And then the gas station where they've removed the pumps and now there's a fire pit. And this is where the community kind of leaders sit

and talk about the space and the issues that had, you know happened that day and whatever else is top of mind. And it was, you know, it was cool. It's almost like it will become a museum, you know, like. It'll be interesting to see what it looks like in a year and five years from now. I mean, the context of Minneapolis of all of this and George Floyd's death was,

to put it in, we've all seen the video and we know about Chauvin and his background and it was murder. But he was one of many people who have been abused or killed by the Minneapolis Police Department. They've had long time accusations of racism. Black residents are more likely to be pulled over, arrested, roughed up than white citizens.

They account for 20% of the city's population, but made up more than 60% of the victims of city police shootings from 2009 to 2019, according to police data. And Merrick Garland, the attorney general, has just announced a complete investigation into the Minneapolis police force with the blessing of the chief, who is black, we should say.

And so all that is the context for you being there. That's the context for George Floyd Square kind of blooming and becoming this place. Yeah, the context is much broader than George Floyd. Yeah, yeah. You know, and that's something that, look, I realize like emotions run high around this and, you know, in my opinion,

Derek Chauvin snuffing the life out of this guy, it's like, you know, on video, it's like, this is not a hard case. No. You know, and it is interesting that there was such an exhale and a sigh of relief when the verdict was announced because it seems like, you know, this should be a no brainer.

And yet time and time again, we've seen it go the other way. Yeah. It was interesting when I posted a little clip, little video clip of me and the guys walking through George Floyd Square on Instagram last week. It was for the most part well-received, but also met with not a small amount of derision and what I would characterize as moral confusion,

a few ad hominem attacks, a lot of what about-ism and this idea that, you know, to honor that space and to, you know, appreciate the movement is somehow to hoist George Floyd up as some kind of hero, which really misses the point and the main issue of the whole thing. It was dispiriting on some regard to see that. And I understand everybody's got their own take and opinion on that.

And ultimately, I do it again. I feel pretty good about being on the right side of history. And like I said, I'm proud of the work that we've done. And I think it is important. And I talked to Brogan about this the other day. There's this idea that yes, we all saw the verdict. We watched it live here in the studio the other day. There is this sense that we can exhale a sense of relief.

And I think it's okay to be happy about it for a minute. Like there's this sense like, well, we can't be happy about this. There's so much work that has to be done. And that's certainly true. Yeah. But I think we can be grateful that it turned out in that way without it being some kind of a referendum

on the extent of the remaining work to be done. Yeah, I think so. I think that what you were referencing with your Instagram posts is like you had said at the beginning of us talking about this, that like we all think we know something before we, and then you get there and there's a whole nother depth to it that we hadn't really anticipated.

I think that when it comes to how polarized we are with media choices or media silos or politics or whatever, people are so sure of their opinion more so than ever, especially the less they know about it. The less you know, the more sure you are of your opinion. And I think that that's where a lot of that comes from. And we're like somehow calcified with so little information into these little boxes and we do it to ourselves

and we're the product, we've talked about it with technology. And I think you're dealing with a little bit of that. I think that's why it's so cool that you are wanting to flex and kind of get that crust out of there because what we need is a certain level of unity to accomplish big things to make the world better.

I mean, that's what you're, to me, that's what you're after. Yeah, flex might be the wrong word. Like I went there with a lot of humility and appreciation that even though I think I have a grip on these issues, understanding that, you know, I was only touching the surface of what was really going on. And the spirit of the trip was to try to learn more so that I could understand more comprehensively

the issues that are at play. That I think, look, Minneapolis is a test case. Yes, it's about the current and future state of Minneapolis, but to again use the word referendum, it's about the civil rights movement at large. It's about where we stand on race as a country. And it bodes, it is a statement on where we're headed as a country.

And that's why the world was watching this 24 hours a day. I think, you know, you talk about with Jeremiah in that episode about kind of the wins that the Minneapolis movement for Black Lives Matter has had in terms of policing. And I don't wanna step on that now. People should check out that episode because it's very interesting.

But for me, looking at it, when I look at the effects of the Black Lives Matter movement this summer, now we see two things. And one is the Biden election victory. I think that's directly tied to that. I don't think you have the turnout you have for Biden without Black Lives Matter. I think that's a big win that is connected completely. I think that was the first. And I think the George Floyd, first of all, having a murder case at all, and then the verdict, I do think that they,

you gotta give credit to the BLM movement. So, you know, when you went for a movement that wasn't after any one specific, you know, there was no civil rights law they were after. There was no permission to go to school, the type of thing that the civil rights period had, which are very, which are very simple, like really easy to understand things

they're trying to accomplish. That makes it easier for spectators, I guess, or other people in the public who are sympathetic and wanna know. The BLM movement didn't have that. So it was kind of like harder to understand for some people. But now we have these two really concrete things, in my opinion. Yeah, it's harder. What do you think about that? Well, it like harder to understand for some people. But now we have these two really concrete things in my opinion.

Yeah, it's harder. Well, it's harder to calculate progress without some kind of touchdown moment. So on some level, that's what this represented. And progress is iterative, you know, despite how much kind of revolutionary energy you have around massive change, history dictates that these changes happen pretty slow.

Yes. And as much as some people would like it to move much more quickly, we have to at least acknowledge that it is moving in the right direction. It is. Couple questions for you, because you talk with Jeremiah

about kind of the defund the police language. And I think that, you know, we should, you should lay out kind of like, I know Jeremiah does very well, but you know, people are confused. I think that anytime you question the police, it's been a third rail in this country for so long. It's like the military and the police,

you can't criticize the police, can't criticize the military. It's like immediately a political third rail. And that's what this movement was doing, which is why people were like, some people who were not sympathetic were pushing back. But I think what the Columbus case showed, I think the soldier that was pulled over,

the Lieutenant that was pulled over in Virginia, I think it was what that showed, maybe it was Maryland, is that too often, first of all, armed police don't have to show up for everything, right? So when we talk about, when they talk about, the activists talk about defund the police, they are talking about moving money around and having, like you said,

not a monopoly for public safety. Well, it depends on who you talk to. Like I said, defund the police means different things to different people. You can make the argument as Jeremiah does that the provocative nature of that phrase was what was necessary to produce the conversations that lead to change.

The counter to that is that it's so inflammatory to say that, that it's unproductive. Right. So my take on that would be like, I think abolish the police is an unproductive phrase. Like I think defund, I think you should, we're all grownups, we should be able to listen to that and figure out what that means.

That means, you know, for, cause for years police forces were funneled cash to militarize more and more. And you'd see these, like they have military Humvees with their police department. Some of that stuff is unnecessary. And certainly what's unnecessary is to have, like the Lieutenant who wanted to drive a mile

to get into a well lit gas station is immediately has guns pointed at him and people shouting at him, or George Floyd passing allegedly a fake bill, there is no reason to get violent with someone like that. Sure, or with Dante Wright. In the middle of the Chauvin trial, are you gonna shoot at Dante Wright driving away?

There's no reason to. It's insanity, right? You can follow him home and block the driveway. Just show up at his house tomorrow if there's a warrant out for him. But like your job is to deescalate conflict. But the problem is so much of the training that's bred into the police force

is that things can go haywire at any minute. You've gotta be ready at all times for something terrible to happen. And so you create a like trigger happy mindset because you're always thinking that lethal force is gonna be directed at you. Right. And so that creates like an anxiety or a fear, I suppose.

And I don't wanna get too deep into this because I'm certainly no expert on police training or the entire issue as a whole. But I think the relevant point that I would like to make is that when you hear defund the police and Jeremiah being somebody who's at the vanguard of that movement and is kind of for better or worse, been a prominent voice with respect to that issue,

when you actually sit down and talk to him, what he says makes a lot of sense, which is first to pose the question, should police have a monopoly on public safety? Which is a question I said to him, like I'd never really asked myself that question or thought about it. But when you think about it,

a sort of armed response to every 911 call is certainly highly inappropriate. There are probably the majority of those calls that could be attended to without people with guns. And we see this in other countries. And we do need better training around deescalation. We see it here in this country. We see it in LA like.

Yeah, but part of the kind of response is we don't need to defund the police. We need to give them more money into training, right? Maybe, and we could talk about that. I think the larger point is we need to reallocate resources so they're going in the direction of the kind of reform that we would like to see. And that overall, the police force should be a tool

in a larger toolkit that includes other public safety measures that are more appropriate depending upon the circumstances. 100%. Because I think what's also, I don't hear people talking about is the status quo. It's not working for the police either in the sense that- It'd be terrible to be a cop right now. Why would you, and right now or anytime

there's lethal force involved, like everyone suffers from these things, the repercussions. You know, one thing I was thinking about when I was listening to Jeremiah is like, look at this amazing family, Keith Ellison, his father's, the attorney general from Minnesota was a Congressman for many terms, is so empowered. And this guy's an artist who, you know

must've felt called to more service and decides and is really has a great idea of what it means to be an activist and what it means to actually then synthesize those demands into governing. And he cares about both. And he understands community building. And he understands community building. And he's like as good a spokesman as you could ever find

from an activist point of view. And now he's governing and understands that's a different level. And he's really on that. It's not to put him in some politician box cause he might be an artist in five years again, but Barack Obama was a community organizer. So when you see that kind of progression,

it's very exciting. But so like at the same time, there's this beautiful, there's a beauty in like these powerful families or some sort of energy. And it has nothing to do with people's economic background necessarily or their ethnic background.

It's just like some families have this like incredible energy running through it. And that is an energy that I think has to be treated with respect. And at the same time, if you're a police officer and you get into an altercation, one moment could create a negative energy that runs through, like the George Floyd family now has to deal with this vacancy. But the cops family has to deal with the fact that he murdered George Floyd. And like that kind of the repercussions of all that, that's what's so sad to me, the tragedy,

the tragic repercussions when you see what an incredible like purpose-driven family looks like. That's what we all wanna be, right? Yeah, certainly a call to service is like woven into the DNA of that family. Their mom was on the board of the department of education, I believe like, yeah, amazing. Yeah. Amazing.

So anyway, you guys saw the verdict here together and that was kind of like a cap on the trip for you. Wasn't it? Yeah, we were back here and working on the episode and it came on and well, first of all, Brogan FaceTime me and he's like, they're gonna announce the verdict pretty soon. So that was how I clued into it.

And we just, yeah, we flipped on YouTube where it was streaming live and just watched until they announced it. Amazing. You think you'll do one of those trips again? I'd like to, I mean, not for the sake of doing it, but if it feels like the right thing to do. It is interesting because the legacy of this show

is essentially evergreen conversations. And this is something that is more news than that. And we're releasing these now over a couple of weeks. So there's a dated nature to it, I suppose, but the conversations are really about the ongoing conversation. It's not about like what's happening in the Derek Chauvin trial

or what's happening with Dante Wright. It's about the larger issues at play that are not going away. That conversation continues. As everybody is fond of saying, the work is just beginning and there's much to do. Very cool. It's almost like anytime there's a conflict,

you just wish that the people that are called to deal with it, show up with this idea that I want the best interest for everybody involved to be the outcome, including myself. And so what is that? And that would be a nice intention. Now I'm not a cop, but that would be a nice intent. When I show up to do a job,

that's kind of where I try to come from. And listen, I'm sure there's a huge number of police officers that have that state of mind. No doubt and soldiers, 100%. It's just not everybody and there's, and clearly, so, and it could, there's good reasons why people don't show up that way. Cause maybe you have to be on guard. Maybe there's something and clearly so, and it could, there's good reasons why people don't show up that way. Cause maybe you have to be on guard.

Maybe there's something wrong with, but it seems like, it seems like if we, if we follow like what you're saying, what Jeremiah was saying on, in his podcast with you, if you kind of divide up the tactics, this, you need an armed response for this, you don't. Maybe you have a better chance of getting there. Yeah, well, we'll see what unfolds.

Cool. All right, let's move on to a little show and tell, shall we? The show and tell segment. Let's do it. I got lost to show and tell today. Your first show and tell, shall we? Let's do it. The show and tell segment. Let's do it. I got lost to show and tell today. Your first show and tell is 10,000, correct? First up on show and tell is

the 10,000 distance short and kit. 10,000 long time sponsor of the podcast. Shout out to 10,000, I love those guys. What's interesting about 10,000 is that this is a, it's a relatively new brand that really kind of found its mark in the gym functional fitness, kind of CrossFit world. And they've been a great sponsor for,

I think over a year at this point, for quite some time. And I love their gear, I love training in it. Their stuff is really of the highest quality. And they reached out to me many months ago to share this plan that they had to get into the running space in a meaningful way because their gear wasn't really necessarily tailored for run specific workouts.

And they just asked, would you be interested in getting involved and helping? And because I love the brand and I really like the people, the guys behind it, I appreciate their incredible attention to detail and their fidelity to the highest quality training gear that I was like, yes, I will jump on this. What a cool opportunity.

So over the last several months in kind of stealth mode, myself along with some other ambassadors that you might've heard of, like Ryan Hall, American record holder in the marathon, turned like beast mode, like power lifting bodybuilder guy. It's unbelievable, this guy's transformation, but he's such a cool guy. And obviously nobody knows more about running

than Ryan Hall, along with Robbie Ballinger, friend of the pod who ran across America and just set the FTK that we talked about in Central Park. Hakim Tofari, who's been on the pod, friend of the pod. We were all testing prototypes and giving 10,000 feedback. We would do these Zoom calls. I would do Zoom calls with 10,000. There'd be like six or eight people

from their team on the call. They were so receptive to all the kind of ideas that I would have. And they just continued to iterate. They'd prototype after prototype after prototype, super receptive, very humble about what they knew and didn't know about running. And they finally nailed it.

And they've created this short called the Distance Short. I apologize, these are actually dirty cause I ran in the other day and I haven't done laundry. So they don't smell bad. They really crushed it. Like it's a fantastic short. It feels like it disappears when you're running. The liner does not chafe.

That's my biggest beef with most running shorts, even really great running shorts. Like if I'm going out on a super long run, at some point I start to have to deal with like some chafing. I've never had any chafing with this. You don't, you don't vaso? Sometimes like if I, you know, sometimes I will, but I was testing this without that

cause I wanted to see if there would be like a hotspot with it, but no hotspot. And I really love it. I'm excited to have played a small part in the creation of this product. How long would your test runs be? I mean, I'm not training super hard. So I, 10, 13 miles, something like that.

I wasn't going out doing like ultra runs or anything like that, but Robbie was, and he wore their gear for his Central Park FTK and didn't have any issues whatsoever. So yeah, I'm really proud to have played a part in this. This is the tank top that they also created as part of the run kit. Look at that.

Nice blue, super nice material. Like everything that they do, like the stitching, everything is like, you know, so well thought out. Fantastic. Refreshing. And I told the guys that I wanted to share that today. And they said, well, let's do a giveaway. So they were kind enough to offer five full distance kits,

which is the short, the tank top, and a pair of socks to enter to win one of these distance kits. All you have to do is subscribe to the YouTube channel, leave a comment below indicating why you think you should be the recipient and we'll just pick five. We'll reach out to you, get your address. Once we select you, we'll message you directly and get you the gear.

But if you would just like to bypass that and grab them, you're certainly welcome to do that. There's a link in the description below or in the show notes. And if you use the code richroll, you get a 15% discount. Perfect. One thing I did wanna say

when I posted this on Instagram the other day, there were some women who were like, what? No women's line? It is a men's apparel line. So there's not much I can do about that. It just is what it is. But I am actively working with 10,000 on some new stuff that I'm super excited about

that I can't really talk about right now. So that's gonna be coming out later this year. So cool stuff in the pipeline. Very exciting. Second thing I wanna share in show and tell is this smart goggle from this company called Finis, which is swimwear apparel company. Yes. And before I even do that,

let me do a little backstory here, cause it's a good story. So my friend, John Mix, who's the founder of Phineas, that's become like a very prominent competitive swimwear and training device company. He started this company, I don't know exactly when he started it. It was probably in the early to mid 90s.

I met him through Pablo Morales, the great Olympic champion, Pablo Morales. Yes. Who I swam with at Stanford. Then we went to, we did our final year at Cornell Law School together. We lived together in Palo Alto when we were studying for the bar exam.

And Pablo was like the initial investor or one of the initial investors in Finis. They were kind of partners back in the early days. And when I met John, he was the first person to show me the monofin. This is in 94, 95, something like that. He had been, I guess the story goes that he had been traveling in Europe This is in 94, 95, something like that. He had been, I guess the story goes that he had been traveling in Europe

and he happened upon a fin swimming competition, which he'd never heard of or seen anything like before he had been a swimmer himself. And he's like, I need to learn more about what this monofin thing is. And he got one and he brought one back or he brought a couple back and started playing around with them.

And he was sharing them with Pablo and myself and a couple other swimmers. And we would go down to the pool at Stanford and play around with them. And they were super fun and an incredible training aid because when you're doing it properly, swimming, undulating the dolphin kick underwater with a monofin, it works your abdominals

and your lower back like nothing else. Were they heavy or they're smaller than the free diving monofins? So they come in all different sizes and in competitive fin swimming, there are different fins for different events. And I'll get into that in a minute, but there's like the sort of original models

are hand-built tapered fiberglass with, you know, a double foot, you know, what do you call that? Foot pocket. Foot pockets that are extremely tight. Like it's very difficult to get your feet in there. And once they're in there, you're like locked in and you become like one with the fin in a very, you know very kind of mermaid way.

Yes. And we were just having a blast playing around with this thing at the pool and getting a great workout along the way. And as a swimmer, as I've said many times, like I was a bench warmer at Stanford, like I was not putting points on the board, but I had the opportunity to train with all these Olympians. And I will say, if I was gonna toot my horn at Stanford, like I was not putting points on the board, but I had the opportunity to train with all these Olympians.

And I will say if I was gonna toot my horn at all, the one thing that I was, and I think I still am pretty good at is underwater dolphin kick. Like certainly Pablo, Anthony Moss, Sean Murphy, Jay Mortenson, maybe a couple other guys on the team were better than me at that. But I was right up there with, not right up there,

but I was like kind of on the heels of those guys when it came to that. Was butterfly your main stroke? I was a butterfly swimmer. And this was a period of time in the late 1980s where swimming was just starting to figure out, competitive swimmers were starting to figure out how powerful the underwater dolphin kick was off the walls

and how you could swim faster underwater with a proper dolphin than you could on the surface. So there were backstrokers starting with Dave Berkoff at Harvard who would essentially swim almost the entire 100 meter backstroke underwater because they could go so much faster. And American and world records were being broken

using this technique until FINA and USA Swimming said, hold on a second, like this is rewriting the entire thing. Like, we're not so sure this is the best way to do this. So they ended up instituting a rule that said you could not swim underwater dolphin kick for more than 15 meters off each wall. And that kind of changed the game. But during this period of time

where everybody was pushing the limits with the dolphin kick, we were experimenting with it on the team. And I was always very strong in this regard. So the monofin was like, where has this been my whole life? Like, I love this. Like maybe I should get into this fin swimming thing. And Pablo, myself and a couple others along,

you know, with John Mix's leadership, started to learn more about this world of competitive fin swimming, which for people that don't know, there is entire sport and subculture that's quite robust in certain parts of Europe and particularly in Russia and in parts of China, where when you're coming up as a kid

and you show prowess in the pool, they figure out right away very early whether you're gonna be a fin swimmer or a traditional competitive swimmer. And certain kids get channeled into this fin swimming world. And there's a whole universe of international fin swimming competition where they have these meets and you're in this monofin

and you basically dive in off a starting block, just like you would in traditional swimming. And you swim underwater as fast as you can with this fin, everything from 50 meters. Well, yeah, yeah, yeah. So with some of the events, like every event is different. Like it's divided up into all these fascinating subcategories.

So if you're just swimming the 50 meters, you don't need anything because literally they cover the distance in like, I don't know, I should have looked up what the current world record is for 50 meters, but it's like, I don't know, 12 seconds or 13 seconds or something like that. And when these swimmers dive in with the fin, this wave, it's like a tsunami, like a low, like a two foot tsunami just moves down

the 50 meter pool and then just drenches all the officials at the other end of the pool. And it happens so quickly, it's fascinating to watch. There are other events where you use a snorkel. So you have a center mounted snorkel, you dive in and then you swim just below the surface of the water, but the snorkel is above so you can breathe the entire time. And you're in a streamlined position like this

with your hands out in front of you, undulating. And then there are other events, longer events, where I forget which one is apnea. Is that where you have the snorkel or is that where you have the tank? But you actually have- No, apnea is breath hold. So that's the 50, like when you just do the breath hold. There are other ones where you use a tank.

You literally have an oxygen tank that is wired to your mouth. Really? A thin, long oxygen tank. And you hold it out in front of you like this in the streamlined position. I have my hands above my head for people that are listening. And you'll swim 1500 meters underwater

without ever breaking the surface, breathing by dent of this oxygen tank. You ready for the world record 50 meters? Oh, did you just look it up? What is it? 15 seconds. 15 seconds, all right. And a hundred meters, 33.87. So it's crazy, right?

Like when I discovered this, I was like, how did I never know about this? Right, right, right. Because it's never really made its way to America. So John brings the monofin back. He introduces this device to a group of elite swimmers. In short shrift, it becomes a go-to training device for a lot of very elite competitive swimmers.

Most prominently there's a swimmer called Misty Hyman who, and she ended up winning the 200 meter butterfly gold medal in Sydney. And she was a devoted practitioner of using the monofin and training and had an, she had an unbelievable underwater dolphin kick, the best in the world. She just won, she's probably the most prominent example.

But that got John thinking about how he could put together a team in the United States to go to the world championships of fin swimming. I don't think I've ever told this story on the podcast, but in 19, I think it was 1996, the world championships in fin swimming In 19, I think it was 1996, the world championships in fin swimming was gonna be held in Hungary in this town outside of Budapest called Dunasvaros.

I'm sure I'm saying that wrong. No, that's a great pronunciation. Dunasvaros. Dunasvaros. I'm sure I'm saying it incorrectly. It sounds good. And he puts together this team, there were probably like 10 or 12 of us.

The team included Jenny Thompson, who between 1992 and 2004 won more Olympic medals than any other female swimmer in history. Pablo Morales, most winning swimmer in NCAA history, won the gold in the Hunter Fly in Athens. Your friend. Misty Hyman, who I just mentioned. Chris Morgan, my friend, Chris Morgan,

who went on to become a very prominent swim coach. He was the 2008 Olympic coach for Switzerland and Beijing. He then went on to be assistant coach at Harvard. He's doing other things in the swimming world now. And then me, right? Like I was sort of like piggybacked onto this crowd. The would be lawyer with his good dolphin kick. John's like, yeah, you can come.

So in 96, we all go, I'm like with these incredible Olympians, we go to Hungary to compete in this meet, but we don't know what we're doing at all. Like we have no, like these swimmers are unbelievable, but they have no experience in fin meet, but we don't know what we're doing at all. Like we have no, like these swimmers are unbelievable but they have no experience in fin swimming which we soon learn is a very different discipline. Like we were training together and trying to figure it out but it was like, you know, a hilarious bad news bears

type situation but with Olympians. That's funny. With gold medal world record setting Olympians. Did they like the fact that they were in beginner mode? Like was it- No, cause it was fun. There was no pressure. Right, right, right. Like they like the fact that they were in beginner mode? Like, was it- No, cause it was fun. There was no pressure. Right, right, right.

Like, and the United States had never attended one of these meets. Right. So we show up in Hungary, we go to this town, which is kind of a communist relic, like a lot of these tall sort of housing, you know, facilities that you could tell are like from a bygone era and a very industrial town.

I think the steel mill was really the engine for the economy in this part of the world. But they have this beautiful natatorium. We swim in this meet and I was like on the four by 200 relay. They do relays like they do in swimming and just watching it was fascinating and like meeting all of these athletes from all over the world.

I remember there was one guy, the guy who I think he won the 50 meter apnea was a dude from China who kind of was, he was a big dude, kind of bulky. He had like a belly and he was smoking cigarettes outside the auditorium, like in between sessions. Badass. But he would dive in and like break the world record

in the 50 meters, like swimming in a way that none of us could. And it was just really, it was just a wild, wild experience. Like, sir, your meet's about to start, and I'll be fine. Yeah. I'm doing, I'll be fine. But what's interesting, and the reason I bring it up, is that the legacy of that experience

is finesse kind of popularizing, through John, popularizing the monofin as a training device, and most competitive swimmers use it as one of the tools in their toolkit. But at the same time, fin swimming has never caught on in the United States. And you have some experience with this, right? Because there's a crossover between the fin swimming world

and the free diving world. Yes, so I mean the monofin that was adopted by free divers to go on constant weight to get the records. Originally they were just using bi-fins and then someone found the monofin and incorporated that. And Alexey Molchanov was early, was groomed as a high-end national team level swimmer from the time he's a little kid,

because his mother, Natalia, the greatest free diver ever, she was a competitive swimmer for the first 24 years of her life. Anyway, Alexi was kind of put through like the sports schools in Russia. And just like you said, he was divided, put into the fin swimming camp because he probably,

cause he was built with amazing powerful legs and he had a great dolphin kick and they put him right in the fin swimming. And he did fin swimming until he was 17 and immediately went to free diving from that. So, and it gave him this advantage. Now he's the deepest ever with a monofin. Well, there's a reason.

Yeah, it's super interesting. I can tell you that when you're fit and you're using a monofin, the feeling of moving through the water that fast underwater is exhilarating. It's crazy, like how fast you can go underwater with it. And there are, like I said, there's different monofins for different events and purposes.

So for the longer distances, you're gonna have a very large, broad, pliable monofin that has a lot of give in it. And for like the 50 meter apnea, it's gonna be a very stiff board. And so I don't know what it's like now, but back then you could get a sort of commercially manufactured fin that would just be a piece of fiberglass, but there's real artistry in these people,

much like surfboards, like creating the perfect fin for that individual and for a specific distance or event that tapers. And there's like, you know, all these like little certain peccadillo's that the different athletes would have with respect to their fins. And so we were trading fins and trading t-shirts

with the Russians and the Chinese. And it was wild. I mean, and as, you know, as a swimmer who never made it to the level where I was competing internationally, it was like this cool way of like tasting that in a very low stakes environment for us. And we didn't win any medals or anything.

Were you still in law school? This was, yeah, I was still, yeah, I was still, or maybe, no, I think it was, I think it was right after I graduated. Maybe it was 94, 96. I can't remember. No, it was after law school, but shortly thereafter. Fun.

As you get old, I can't remember the timeline exactly. Right, right, right. Do you miss, do you have, how come you haven't, you gotta try free diving with a monofin, man. You gotta get your monofin back. Well, listen, when I was in Malta, I did a whole day of free diving breath training with like that guy, I can't remember his name.

The guy lives there who's like a former world champion. And then we went out to actually free dive and I could not get down below like 12 or 15 feet without my head feeling like it was gonna explode. I couldn't, I could not equalize. So I'm sure with discipline and training, I could get past that. But on that day, which is the last time I tried it,

I couldn't. So I don't feel like I could really get the full free diving experience because of my inability to equalize. Yeah, you just have to work on it a little bit. You can easily get past it. But I love the monofan. All of which brings us to the show and tell,

which is that John, who then, you know, I've just recounted the early days of Finis, which was a company that literally started with a monofin as its product has now become this robust competitive swimming apparel line has come out with a smart goggle. And John sent me one of the early, before it's commercially, it's not quite commercially available for you.

You can pre-order it, they're shipping in May. But what's cool about it is it has a computer that you can see that fits in here. You kind of push it in here and it clicks in and it's got a little optical, I don't know what you would call that lens there. And in the corner of your left eye, it provides output and data on your swim workout.

Essentially real-time data to better understand the patterns in your swim training. It calculates split and time and distance. You can see it very easily and read it pretty easily. I was concerned because I wear glasses, I'm pretty blind without them, but I had no trouble reading it. And it's amazing how it kind of knows

if you're doing a set of hundreds, it knows that if you sit on the wall in between each hundred repeat for more than like five seconds, it's like, oh, okay, he's taking a break. Like this is your split for the hundred and you don't really need a pace clock because it'll then count down, okay,

how much rest you want in between each one of those. And then it all syncs up with this app called the CIYE app. So your workouts upload there, it integrates with Strava if you'd like that. And what's cool and different about this smart goggle, cause there are other smart goggles out there, is that the actual technology, you can pull it out,

cause the goggle at some point is gonna wear out, right? The lens are gonna get scratched, you're gonna break the mooring or whatever. You just get another pair of goggles and pop in the tech into that, which is cool. Perfect. So I dig it. I dig finesse. I feel allegiant to them because of my history with John

and the whole fin swimming thing. Cause of your hungry days? My hungry days. It all comes in this beautiful box and it's pretty easy to set up. I set it up the other day and I dig it. So another tool for the swimmers out there. You know what I dig?

Your Rolodex. You have a very impressive Rolodex, sir. I'm 54, so I've lived a little bit of life and I've met some people along the way. Company founders, Minneapolis fixers. I love talking about things though. I wish I could remember. I'm gonna have to go back.

I have a photo album that I created from that experience with pictures of a bunch of the athletes. And I should have broken that out and reviewed it. You know what? That's perfect for show notes, baby. Throw up some pics of Rich Roll 96. Old photos from 96. Yes.

Anyway, you know what I forgot to point out on the smart goggle and we'll put this in the show notes. John was kind enough. This is not a sponsored thing. I just, I love John and I wanna support him, but he was kind enough to offer a 15% discount on the smart goggles, which is a $35 value. If you use the code smart goggle RR at checkout and I'll put the link up, You can just go to Phineas,

but I'll put specific links up to these goggles in the description below on YouTube and in the show notes on audio. There you go. Moving on, what do we got? Should we talk about this Meatless Meat, Ezra Klein, New York Times op-ed? You, you know.

I feel like we've done a lot today, but this is an article that Ezra penned up that I believe ran in the Sunday Times that I think deserves just a quick mention. Did you know he was a plant-based? I did, yeah, I did. He's been vegan for a little while at this point and he talks about it regularly on his podcast.

For those that don't know, Ezra Klein founded Vox Media. Now he's back with the New York Times. His podcast is killing it. And he's had, I think he's had Bruce Friedrich on. He had, who else did he have on? He's had a bunch of people on his show that have been on this show that are from the kind of plant-based animal rights sector.

So he's definitely sensitive to this issue. And I think this article did a good job of explaining the complications of our over-dependence on meat and animal agriculture. And I think it's interesting that he has shouldered this mantle at the times because prior to Ezra being on staff there, the only other person at the times who would occasionally talk about this subject matter is Nicholas Kristof.

Right. He would talk about the chicken industry and things like that. Yeah, in fact, in this article, they referenced the Costco chicken stories. That was all because of the work of Leah Garces from Mercy for Animals, who's been on the show and has been on Ezra's show.

But the New York Times doesn't have a George Monbiot. Right. So Ezra is sort of fulfilling that. I mean, he's not as staunch or, Ezra is much more of a realist, as you will see if you read this article about how to solve this problem. But he does a great job of talking about the implications

of meat being on the rise, the implications for future zoonotic diseases, the problems related to antibiotic resistance, the climate costs. And in terms of the solution, he's basically calling for, I think where he got criticized on this is this call for kind of government,

not government intervention, but government budgeting to invest in the plant-based sector. Right, well, it was connected to, he's basically saying, I looked at the Biden plan for climate, like the climate stuff, and there's nothing in there involving agriculture or meat production. Right, which is, let me just put a pin in that

for a second and interrupt you, because I don't know if you saw this, but unfolding on Twitter over the last 48 hours is this idea that Joe Biden is going to restrict people's meat eating and that caused this reaction in the Republican community, including like Donald Trump Jr. saying,

you're not prying the meat out of our hands or I'm gonna eat twice as much meat today. I mean, really. None of it is rooted in reality. Joe Biden never said that, like it's not factually correct in any way. Anyway, I digress, continue. You're saying that the extreme right

is not factually correct? All right. But it was a thing that just exploded on Twitter. It just shows you like when you're trying to have nuanced discussions with children, it's very difficult because like we're trying to have- Now, now, we're creating a welcome mat for all people. But when you're trying to have a nuanced conversation

about something like meat and problems or police and problems, there is a section of the public that is not only gonna not listen, but then to purposely use this issue to divide the country. And it's unfortunate. A hundred percent. Yes.

I loved how he brought the Good Food Institute into this discussion because Bruce, friend of the pod many times over, who is the founder of Good Food Institute, produced this wishlist calling for $2 billion in funding, half of it for research and half of it to set up a network of innovation centers. And Ezra's basically saying that he'd like Congress

to actually dream bigger. But the larger point being that it actually wouldn't, like in the grand scheme of the federal budget, like this isn't that much. And it really wouldn't take all that much to supercharge this industry. Right. At a moment when we could benefit tremendously

from investment in this sector. So the sector meaning lab grown meat. Lab grown and plant-based. Okay, so both, a little bit of plant-based, a little bit of lab grown meat. And that the idea would be, you can't, I mean, I think what Ezra is conceding is he's not asking everyone to become vegan.

It's just not gonna happen. People are gonna eat meat. That's where his realistic, yeah. Right, and so the lab grown meat part of it is for people who are gonna eat meat. And the reason I get torn sometimes on some of this is that like he even calls for, there are small producers that are producing meat

that are less, they're not the CAFOs, it's not causing the big problems and they're not as heartless with the animals. However, obviously when it comes to meat, 90% of the meat that's out there in the market is coming from big corporations. And so to replace a big corporation with another corporation that's growing it in a lab,

I have less of a problem with that. It's not like we're talking about, we're replacing mom and pops with, all of a sudden this big company that's gonna suck up all the dollars like Amazon or Walmart has done with mom and pop stores. That's not what's happening here. It's big companies that are involved.

And they typically, when it comes to animal feed, CAFOs, they basically pay a pittance to the farmer that doesn't even own the animal just to feed them as quickly as possible. And they barely pay them. And the farmers are on leases. And a lot of the times they have financial problems. Servitude model where they're servicing debt.

Right. And the idea of the bucolic, you know, family farm certainly there are some of those but that's not how we're feeding the world or America. Exactly. So I think the idea, you know, the counterpoint to this is that this is not the solution, regenerative agriculture is the solution.

And there's some truth in that, but at the same time, it's a bit of a red herring because although it's certainly better if you're gonna eat meat to make sure that your meat comes from a farm that is dedicated to regenerating the soil that takes care of their animals and provides a range-free life to them and grass-fed and all the like,

like the Chester's, the biggest little farm and all of that. Right. The problem is that you can't scale that to meet the level of demand that the world is requiring at the moment. There just isn't enough land. All of our land is already devoted to these animals. And to the extent that we pivot away from that,

people don't understand how much of industrialized plant agriculture is going, something like 75% of that is going to livestock feed. It's going to the animals, right? So we need a better solution. We need all solutions on the table, plant-based, lab grown. It's gonna be really interesting to see how this develops. It's developing rapidly and quickly.

Just, Josh Tetrick at Just is now serving lab meat overseas. I think in Singapore, they're serving it in restaurants right now. There's still some issues around getting it to a certain scale so they can drive the cost down because ultimately to win this war, whether it's plant-based meat or lab grown meat, they're calling it cultured meat now.

That's the favorite term at the moment. It keeps changing. First it was cell-based meat, it's cultured meat now. You have to create a product that tastes as good or better than what currently exists. And it has to be at the same price point or cheaper than what exists right now. It's the only way that you win.

And I think we're moving in that direction and that's exciting. And I celebrate Ezra for shining, you know, the New York Times spotlight onto this issue. Well, in that regard, you do need government subsidies because government subsidizes GMO corn and government subsidizes, you know, like these industries. But I don't think we're talking about subsidies here.

We're talking about a level of investment in research, which is different. That is different. You know, when I hear subsidy, I'm like, I bristle. I retract. What we need to do is be done with the subsidies that are propping up corn and all these other products that are creating cheap commodified processed foods

that are making people sick. It's a great story because he gets into so much kind of setting up the problem with animal agriculture and even getting into like the, so much of the way capitalism works just by nature is that we, all these ripple effects that are sometimes they're positive, but oftentimes they're negative. All these negative ripple effects,

the producer of a product, whether it's a piece of single use plastic or a steak, they don't have to pay for all that. The government picks up that tab or the public has to deal with the ramifications. And so if you actually paid the true kind of real world cost including cleanup for your messy CAFO to have the steak, the steak wouldn't cost 10 bucks, it would cost 50 bucks. Right, and a Big Mac would cost, I think $7

when you do the math on that. If you excise out the extent to which it's subsidized. So he gets into that. It's a really good piece, I liked it. Rich, I have a question for you. What's that? Would you eat a lab grown, excuse me, cultured steak? I don't know, I've been asked that before.

I haven't decided yet. You don't have to decide. I need to know, I'm been asked that before. I haven't decided yet. Yeah, you don't have to decide. I need to know, I'm on a wait and see approach. I suppose I would just out of pure curiosity. Yeah. But it's not like I'm waiting for that to happen or I can't wait for that to happen. Like I've been eating plant-based for so long,

I don't have a taste for that anymore. So it's not like I crave it, I don't need it. It's not all of a sudden like steak will be good for you, right? No, but certainly, when people say, the ick factor, right? Like, oh, this is brood, like, what is this? It's freak food.

But when you really look at the way animals are raised and slaughtered, the manner in which they end up at your grocery store, they're pumped full of antibiotics. They're basically living in their own feces. They're brewing with disease. That's what's gross, right? That's the real problem. So to the extent that we can produce meat

without the suffering and out without all of these, upstream problems, certainly that's gonna be more palatable, but you know, there's gonna be an arc in getting culture, you know, to cotton onto that. Like there'll be an adoption period, I suppose. And I think that we'll be better off for it because even though it's not something

that I necessarily find myself looking forward to, I like Ezra acknowledge the reality that not everyone's gonna get struck plant-based or vegan. I did and I always enjoy it when people step into this lifestyle that has done so much for me and I can't evangelize it enough, but I'm realistic in that, there's a lot of people that aren't gonna be convinced.

You know who's been convinced and is now vegan? You? No, Mookie Betts. Who's Mookie Betts? Rich Roll. Is he an athlete? He is the starting center. I follow Finn swimming.

He's the starting center fielder for the Los Angeles Dodgers, sir. Two time World Series champion. I couldn't name one baseball player in the entire league right now. Now you got Mookie Betts. All right. Get him on the pod.

All right, cool. Let's do listener questions. Listener questions. Oh, wait, we have one more thing. We do? One more win one more thing. We do? One more win of the week. We do, another one of the week. My Octopus Teacher won the Oscar.

Last night. Last night. Congratulations. Congratulations team behind My Octopus Teacher and Netflix. Any thoughts, any thoughts for you? I love the movie. When I saw that they won last night,

I was super excited about it. And then I found myself feeling bad because I was a little bit, what's the right word? Podcast regret? A little bit, like a little, maybe a little bit too jocular and... You were a little hard on the narrator. Right, well, as I recall,

I mean, I haven't gone back and listened to it, but we were celebrating the movie, but I also said, you know, listen, like the sort of elephant in the room is that this guy, you know, is struggling with his mental wellbeing. And I was curious about how that worked with his relationship with his son, when he starts putting pictures up of the,

he sort of puts the serial killer board up of like all the photos. And I was like, what's his son think when he's doing that? I thought it was just like how he organized his art. I was just having a fun lighthearted moment. And I forget that a lot of people watch and listen to this. And we got an email from his wife, the producer of the show.

She was very happy that we spoke highly of the movie. And then I felt really bad. No, but she actually said something that I don't think we brought up in the podcast is that she said she actually does swim with him. And so like, cause there was some speculation is like, yeah, his son towards the end, his son gets in the water with him,

but now his wife also swims with the group. And she at first didn't want to, cause she was kind of scared and the cold and all that. And then she got in there and she's one of the regulars. Right, so that was a really nice email to get. It was. Congratulations to all of them. Well-deserved.

Well-deserved, great movie, beautiful movie. All right, listener questions. Listener questions. Listener questions. This is Stephen from Charleston, South Carolina. Hey, Rich. This is Stephen Jackson calling in from Charleston, South Carolina. And you guys have my permission to play the clip on the air. No problem.

Just calling in with a question about what to do when you feel like you've hit a wall, motivation-wise. So I signed up for the 4x4x48 and just feeling pumped after doing a couple of events before that, that my ultra running journey was just on an upward momentum and trained really well for the 4x4 and did really well. But afterwards, I feel like I have just hit a wall with motivation to keep going and keep training for the next thing. So, yeah, in your experience and Adam's experience, what are some tips to overcome that little bit of plateau or valley after a big event like that and get back on the road feeling good and feeling motivated. So yeah, man, thanks so much for all you guys do. Love the pod, the books. I've been a follower now for two years or so and hugely inspirational. Thank you for impacting so many people, including myself. So yeah, man. Thanks.

Bye. Have you been to Charleston? I have not been to Savannah, which is like Charleston Jr. Charleston is such a cool place. They should have a swim run there. It would be a great place to, I don't know. Not that I'm aware of. They should have one. It's such a cool city and there's so much water surrounding it that you could like run down these historic streets and then jump in the water. And I don't know, I think it would be cool. It'd be amazing.

Steven, thank you for your question. Listen, post-race blues is a normal response. Any athlete who's been in the game for any period of time has peaks and valleys, you hit plateaus, et cetera. So I think you're, first of all, like it's okay that you feel that way. Every athlete has gone through that. It's not abnormal.

So I wouldn't beat yourself up for being in that spot. And not only is it okay for you to take a break, I would advise taking a break. You can't just power through race after race, after race, after race, and it's just this endless upward trajectory. It doesn't work that way. You have to build in periods of rest, periods of recovery,

and that kind of mentality should apply to how you plan out, not just like your training blocks, like week by week, but also day by day and year by year. Like these things are seasonal, right? And you can't, if longevity is an aim or a goal, you can't just hammer incessantly. You've gotta build this into your program. And now that you've had a taste of this,

hopefully you can understand why this is so important. At the same time, you don't wanna be that guy who's rubber banding in and out of shape, gaining weight, losing weight. To some extent, that's okay, but you don't wanna get too far out of it that when you get back into it, you have this very long period of trying to get,

lose a bunch of extra weight and get into shape. You wanna stay in contact with your fitness. So you never wanna move too far away from it because it's so much easier to stay in shape than it is to get totally out of shape and spend all your time trying to get back in shape. And that way you never feel like you're actually making progress.

So a couple of suggestions that maybe might be helpful for you. First of all, mix up your training and you can do this by cycling it seasonally, like I mentioned. Try different things. Like if you're running all the time, get on a bike or get in the water or go to a yoga class

or hit the weight, or do something else that breaks up the monotony of just running all the time, I think is important. And you gotta keep it fun and not so serious. Like if you're always in this performance mindset of chasing these races and these goals, it's easy to kind of lapse into this,

you know, this state where you're taking yourself too seriously and every, like every minute you're focused on your training and you're gonna burn out. So you've got to find the joy in all of it. And I think if you can connect with that, that will build some longevity into this journey that you're on. So again, mixing in some strengths, some cross-training, other aerobic activities.

Summer's coming up in Charleston. I'm sure there's things you can do on a boat. I don't know what goes on there. Steven, there is a swim run challenge in June. There you go. I don't know what his deal is with swimming, but maybe he can get into that. I also think, and this is direct

from the creator of the 4x4x48, David Goggins himself, it's important to stop over-indexing on motivation because motivation is an unreliable motivator. It really is. We tend to think like, well, I'm not motivated, so I won't do it. It's very fickle, it's very temporal,

and it shouldn't provide the foundation of your why. So instead, I always tell people to think more about it in the context of the values that you're trying to prioritize. So instead of saying, I don't feel motivated, the idea would be to say, I am an athlete, or I am somebody who does hard things, right? To create identity around it,

as opposed to this fluctuating emotional state that you can't really create for yourself. And I think if you can contextualize what you're doing in that manner, you'll create a more sustainable fuel for yourself. I also think that you need to ask yourself if you're training simply to get a result,

to say you did it, or you crossed that finish line, or you hit that PR, or are you training because it does bring you joy. It's an expression of who you are because if you think of yourself as an athlete or somebody who does hard things, then you understand that we don't train when we're motivated to do so,

we train because this is who we are and what we do. I like it. That's all really good. I would just add, or just not even add, but just like emphasize what you said. I think David would tell you, if your brain is saying, I don't wanna do it, then you flip that right away and say,

if that's what he hears, he's right out the door. If he hears, I don't wanna fucking do this shit. He's like, just that means you have to go do it. And you just force yourself to do it. And it does take time. Like you say, it's the same thing you're saying, telling yourself you're an athlete or I'm someone who does hard things

is the same thing as saying, well, I don't wanna do it today. Oh, that means I have to do it today. So it's just however you wanna do it, you're training the brain to flip it. And I think he'd say that. And the other thing I would say is, I'm big believer in cross training, just like you said,

I think it really does help. It makes you, it brings the fun into it. So whether it's swimming or riding a bike or whatever it is, and then, the zone two training, maybe he's running too hard. You know, like zone two, I found like, I enjoy running like in a way that I never enjoyed it before. Kinda takes the pressure off.

Like you can feel tired and it's late in the day or in your, but you're like, well, it's just a zone two run. Right. Like you don't have to sweat it. Don't be fixated on your garment and all the kind of devices and hold yourself to some standard that every time you go out to train, you've gotta be better and faster

than you were the day before. Right, if you just like decide I'm gonna lay back and do an hour of zone two, then you still do get a sweat, you still do burn calories. You still do get some positive benefits. When you're going on heart rate too, you're not measuring yourself against a pace where then you either feel bad or good about yourself

dictated by that. You're just training where you're at. You're not training where you think you should be or where you were last year at this time, train where you're at. Love it. Good one, great question. I should have prefaced this.

All these questions are kind of run oriented, which is good. I'm starting to try to curate this moment no fin swimming questions today no we've had enough training for the world championships and fin swimming enough merman talk for one day you guys were like the og instagram mermaids yeah i don't know there was no there was barely an internet back then you were the OG internet merman. All right. Casey from Illinois. Hello, Rich and Adam. This is Casey from Illinois, and I am running the Chicago Marathon

for the first time in October. And I was wondering if you had any after-race, after-run tips. And thank you for all you do. Love the podcast, love the books, and it's okay to listen to the podcast. Thank you. Thanks, Casey.

Did he say after race, after run? You know, I thought it was just any race then after run tips, but let's just go with what you got. Right, cause I saw this typed out before I listened to it. And now I'm wondering whether I need to rethink this, but I'm gonna answer it the way that I feel like answering. And hopefully this is helpful to Casey. First of all, with respect to race tips,

there's this maxim that you shouldn't do anything on race day that you didn't do in training. Race day is not the time to test out a fancy new pair of shoes or a new pacing strategy or some kind of new nutrition protocol or some gel that you've never tried before. Training is all about testing, testing, testing. So that by the time you reach a race,

you already know exactly what you're doing. The race is merely the execution of what you've already done. So if you've trained properly and you visualized it, then it just becomes about showing up, enjoying yourself and celebrating the journey that got you there. So having fun, enjoying it, I think is super important. The whole idea of running a marathon

is to have a positive experience. It's gonna hurt, of course, but if and when you feel like it's all falling apart and you feel terrible, you should also know that that isn't necessarily a predictor of anything because in a long race, things change. You can feel terrible, then you'll feel terrible, you should also know that that isn't necessarily a predictor of anything because in a long race, things change, you can feel terrible, then you'll feel good, then you'll feel terrible again.

And you learn to just keep going no matter what. And with that, to adapt to any unforeseen variables that get thrown in your direction. A lot of times athletes, they visualize, they train, and they're very attached to the race unfolding in a very specific way. And the minute something goes wrong, like you step in a puddle and suddenly your foot's all wet,

or, I don't know, somebody bumps you when you fall down, anything unforeseen can throw somebody off their mental game and they have a hard time kind of getting back into it. So I think sort of understanding that there's gonna be variables that get thrown in your way and learning how to be resilient with those is super important and something to prepare mentally and physically for in your training.

In addition, on race day, you should know what your strategy is and you should implement that, meaning run your race, not the race that the person next to you is running. It's very easy, especially when there's a lot of people around you and people are passing you that you can get caught up in what others are doing.

And it takes a certain level of confidence and discipline to not let any of that impact your plan that you've set for yourself. So sticking to your plan is key. And that also means that on race day, you're gonna have all this extra energy. You're gonna be very excited. There's gonna be a lot of crowd and whatever.

And if you find yourself feeling like you're like five miles in and you feel amazing, a lot of athletes throw the race plan out the window and just start speeding up because they feel great only to like explode at mile 18. So if you feel amazing, resist that urge to go faster and stick to your plan in terms of after race, which I think is really the core

of what Casey wants answers to. I think after your race, which I think is really the core of what Casey wants answers to. I think after your race, it's important to do an inventory of what went right and what went wrong. You can write it out in a journal, just in free hand, like everything that you thought about, every emotional experience, what it felt like physically, where it went to plan, where it didn't go to plan.

You can mine the data and all of that is, you know, an ample opportunity to learn from the experience that you just had. But the important thing is in the aftermath of the race, have fun, go to the beer garden, whatever, enjoy yourself, make sure you hydrate, fuel up, stay warm, you know, ice your legs. I think active recovery in the days that follow is super important. If it's your first marathon, you're going to be unbelievably stiff and have trouble

going up and down stairs or even walking around, but you've got to, you shouldn't just lay in bed. You should get up and move and go on walks and try to get the blood flowing in a low grade way. And that'll help flush out all the lactic acid and help you recover a little bit more quickly. But there's no need to go running for, I don't know, a week or 10 days or something like that. Like allow your body to heal. And I think another mistake a lot of athletes make is

they wanna get right back into it too quickly. And they underestimate just how much their body gets beat up in running something like a marathon. So giving your body the space and the time to repair itself takes longer than you might imagine. And providing that opportunity for yourself, I think is important. Go to the beer garden. Advice I never thought I'd hear Rich Roll deliver on. I'm not going to the beer. Well, I can go to the beer garden.

I'm not gonna drink the beer, but he can drink the beer. Yes. That's what he wants to do. I always enter any sort of race with one plan. Just don't come in last. Well, what's wrong with that? What's wrong with coming in last? Yeah, the lantern rouge.

I'm sure as I age, I will even let that go. This is the extent of your competitive fire. The extent of my ego, egotism. I would suggest not even thinking about that at all, because that means that you're gauging your performance off of other people. I know, it's true. You should just think about executing your race

the way that you trained for. I know, I'm glad we didn't get into my shaming of not wearing goggles when I swim. We'll have to do that another time. Yeah, that's right, we didn't even talk about that. So Adam and I will quickly recap this before the next question, the final question. Yeah, I'm talking to Adam on the phone the other night

and he's telling me about how his face mask is big. What do you call, I don't even know what you call it. I took three waves on the head on my way in from my last swim and which was fun. I enjoyed getting thrashed and ragdolled because it was not that big a surf, but I did get messed up and I lost my mask. I wear a mask.

She wears a mask. And so I just, I'm like, listen, buddy, all right. As somebody who's competed in swim run competitions, from an etiquette perspective, a real swimmer would never wear a face mask. I'm a breaker of etiquette. So get on the goggles and dispatch this. It's good that it got lost.

It's time, all right? It's embarrassing to go swimming with you in the ocean and you're wearing a face mask. You are not the octopus teacher. Wait. You are a swim run athlete. No, no, no. Let me push back just for a second.

I wear a Sphera mask by- I don't care. What are you talking about? Well, the Sphera mask was designed for open water swimmers. Listen, Aquasphere also makes goggles. They do. For open water swimming.

But I would highly suggest the Finesse line of goggles. Finesse. Including the smart goggle. It might interest you. Can I interest you in a smart goggle that might interest you. Can I interest you in a smart goggle? There you go. Took my lashings. So while we're at it, yeah, no more masks, dude. Come on.

What are we doing here? I promise. All right. All right, let's finish this. Here we go. One last question from a couple of badass adventurers in the great North. Hi, Rich and Adam.

This is Asha and Savannah. We are two girls from Kelowna, British Columbia, Canada. And we have decided to run 500 kilometers barefoot, starting this run on June 21st, 2021. kilometers barefoot starting this run on June 21st, 2021. So we're one month into training and have just a few left, which is why as plant-based vegans, we're hoping to link arms with you to receive the proper nutritional wisdom to make those 500 kilometers a success. Rich, your journey to your first ultra gave us the confidence that we are capable of this feat. We know we can do this. So call us anytime.

And as we like to say, keep rolling on. And just a side note, you can totally play this on the air. You are welcome to call us at any time, legit. And we really do look forward to rolling on with you. Awesome. Ciao. All right. First of all, a couple of things.

I feel like this is much more about like, hey, Rich, will you call us? Than it is like a legitimate interest in me answering this question. No, but this is you calling them. Asha and Savannah, were they both talking back and forth on this? It seemed like it.

It seemed like it. All right. I love these women, this is awesome. 500 kilometers barefoot. I like how they have only been training a month and there's only like two months left or less than two months before they're gonna do this. So that's amazing. I like that they're plant-based vegans

and I'd be happy to link arms with them. Maybe I should call them at some point. So wind in your sails, this is very cool. I wanna know more about this adventure. Are they running on pavement, I suppose? Or trails. What exactly is going on here? Do they have roads in Kalawanya, British Columbia?

I think they do, right? That's a terrible thing to say. I think they have roads. Do they pave the roads up there? That's pretty far north. I'm just kidding. You guys are awesome. Very cool.

I'm here to support you 100%. And although I'm not sure you really need any advice cause I don't know that that's what this is about. I think nutrition is very personal. So specifics, I don't think are gonna be super helpful to you guys. Like I said, in the answer to the previous question, test, test, test, test all this stuff out.

You guys have plenty of time to work out your nutrition regimen in the lead up to this adventure. So when you start, you should know exactly what works for you and what doesn't. If you wanna stay on the whole food tip, what's worked for me and what has worked for many other people are things like sweet potatoes, which are easily digestible when you're running

at a low pace, they kind of work like nature's gels. Dates are great. Almond butter is great. Coconut water for hydration. I think you need to figure out some estimate of how many calories you're burning per hour. And then from that, figure out how many calories you need to be,

you can reasonably take in on an hourly basis to make sure that you're replenishing yourself as much as possible without upsetting your stomach. And the upset stomach thing is the big thing, right? Like when you're testing, you have to almost overdo it to figure out where that line is and which foods your body is able to digest better than others to figure out

what's gonna work for you. And also understanding that no matter what you do, when you're tackling an adventure like this, 500 kilometers barefoot, you are very quickly gonna go into a caloric deficit. You're not gonna be able to eat that much when you're running, when you're cycling, it's a little bit easier, but you're always gonna be coming from the rear

in terms of meeting your body's caloric needs, which means it's really important that you figure out a schedule so that you're taking in as much as you can, like I said, without upsetting your stomach, even when you're not hungry. Like there'll be moments where you're like, I'm not eating. And you need a crew member who's gonna say,

we knew you were gonna say that, but you have to eat right now because you're not eating for that moment, you are eating for the following day. So even though if you feel great and you don't wanna put anything in your stomach, you have to understand that's gonna imperil your body's ability to repair itself

and come back the next day and the next day and the next day. So super important to stay on top of it. If you're open to some performance nutrition products, I can shout out a couple of podcast sponsors. You can for slow carbs, they're great. Yes. It's very easily digestible.

You can put a ton of calories in a water bottle and just sip it. And it will really, that's been very helpful, especially for something like this. I would highly suggest you check that out. Would you suggest like regular, like every 30 minutes, I'm gonna have a sip, every hour I'm gonna have food? Yeah, it could be, I mean, everybody's different.

Like some people every 20 minutes, it's 50 calories or something like that. So you just create this slow, what you don't wanna do is like spike your blood sugar and then have like a crash. That's what you're trying to avoid. So the kind of slow carb, like what would you call it?

The carbohydrates that are in something like UCAN are designed to not spike that blood sugar, but to kind of give you a slow drip of energy, which is exactly what you're looking for. For electrolytes, coconut water is great, but you really wanna make sure that you're staying on top of that proper ratio and balance. So Element, another podcast sponsor, they're great for that. There's no sugar or artificial ingredients in that.

You know, I'm doing the Goggins thing that it worked for you. So maybe check those out and make sure that when you're getting those rest periods, the recovery in between, that you're doing everything in your power to not just replenish those calories, but repair your body for the next day.

So ice baths, if that's possible, if you don't have a Theragun, I'm just shouting out all the sponsors, Theragun, but these are products that work and are helpful and to make sure that you are getting the sleep that you need, that's the most powerful recovery enhancer. It looks like Kelowna is on a Fingerling Lake. Oh, did you look at the map?

Just east of Vancouver, where it's like the British Columbia wine country area. You know how you- Beautiful. There's wine country up there. So I think that's where it looks like. And so it always jump in the lake. It depends on the route, right? But if they're near the lake, maybe they can get-

Yeah, if there's no ice bath, just like jump in that lake for a while. But I don't know if they're doing this. Are they, do they have a crew? Are they being supported? Is there a van? Are they just going straight through? Are they gonna sleep?

Lots of questions. And I have one other question. How do you- I feel like it's, they did that on purpose. So then now I have to call them. Yes, and how do you care for the bare feet? Like when you're taking breaks? I don't know, they gotta call Tony Riddle.

I have no experience with that. I really don't know, but that's Tony Riddle's department. All right. Anyway, it was a wonderful question. You guys are amazing. And we looking forward to hearing more about your incredible run. Sending you love and strength.

We are. All right, I think we did it. We done did it. Thus concludes another successful episode of Roll On. I deem it a success. I think we did it. We done did it. Thus concludes another successful episode of Roll On. I deem it a success. I think it is. Yeah. Can I fact check a couple of things?

Sure. One, point of information, Mookie plays the outfield mostly in right field, not center field. Is that supposed to make me care about baseball? Listen, he's plant-based and he's one of the best players in the league. That's awesome, cool.

Just like Chris Paul, plant-based, great basketball player. And then the other thing is you asked me if it was me who had become plant-based. I'm 98% plant-based. What's with this 2%? What is with the 2%? Yeah, I don't know. I'm a 2% omnivore.

Listen, Brogan is lining up to take your seat. I'm not helping myself. Get on board. Brogan, don't use that against me. All right, is that all the fact checking we're doing today? That's all the fact checking. I'm gonna fact check you on your swimming face mask situation.

We're gonna talk about that next time. I'm gonna bring it in. I'm gonna bring it in. I'm gonna bring it in. I just ordered another one. Burn that thing. All right, we're done. I feel good. You feel good?

I feel great. Awesome. Hey, it's good to be back. It is good to be back, right? Follow Adam at Adam Skolnick on at Rich Roll on all the stuff. Leave us a message 424-235-4626 to check out links to everything we talked about today,

including the stuff about all the products. And I don't know, we talked about a lot of stuff. Ezra Klein's article, check out the show notes on the episode page at richroll.com. There's also a link to that in the description below. If you're watching on YouTube, please subscribe to us. We would really appreciate it on YouTube, Apple, Spotify, all the stuff.

And that's it. We're gonna be back here in two weeks. We took a, we had a week off, so a lot of energy. Yeah, was I too much? We were, it was good. We made a symphony. Symphony of conversation. More music to come a symphony. Symphony of conversation. More music to come next time.

Appreciate all of you. Thank you for tuning in and listening. I don't take your attention for granted and I do not produce this show alone. Certainly Adam Skolnick sitting across from me play a small part in today. Thank you, sir. And of course, Jason Camiolo for audio engineering,

production, show notes, interstitial music, all kinds of behind the scenes stuff or which he does not receive enough credit. Blake Curtis, who created the video version of today's podcast. I was in here Sunday afternoon, Blake was in here putting the finishing touches on the Jeremiah Ellison episode,

burning the weekend hours. If you haven't checked it out, you should watch it on YouTube because we have all this B roll from the square and kind of cruising around Minneapolis. Yeah, it's really nice to do a great job with the edit as he always does. Jessica Miranda for graphics,

Davey Greenberg, Minneapolis native. Oh. Make the trip. Yeah, unfortunately, because he was on vacation, but he's here today to shoot some amazing portraits. Georgia Whaley for copywriting, DK for advertiser relationships, and theme music as always by Tyler Trapper and Hari,

who are in the process of trying to name their band. You mean Tres Primos? Tres Primos, yeah. We'll see, I don't know. I don't think that's gonna make it. I really wanna redo this theme music. I think it's time. I think the audience would rebel or revolt.

Can't we use one of their new songs? I don't mind the music because people have kind of an attachment to it now, but I don't like how I say the Rich Roll podcast. Like, come on, man, we could do better, can't we? Listen, can Brogan and I do an acapella number? I would welcome that. Let's make that happen.

Jason could write a little music for that. Jason. We'll do it. Let's do it. All right, thanks for the love you guys. See you back here in a couple days with another episode notes from Minneapolis to be continued until then peace plants.

Namaste. Thank you.